# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  Neonicotinoids and CCD

## Stromnessbees

This thread originally began life here on Page 2. As this is the point where it branched into a new line of discussion I have moved the relevant posts into this thread.

Regards

Nellie


Thank you  for all your replies.

But I have to tell you: it wasn't acarine, it wasn't varroa. It wasn't bad beekeeping or wood honey either. 
- It was CCD, colony collapse disorder, caused by neonic contaminated pollen from seed treated maize.

A look at the maps showed that the affected apiaries were within flying ranges of seed treated crops, those in areas of organic agriculture or even areas with traditional spraying were fine. 

Austrian beekeepers are furious and will push for a ban by next year:

(watch from 9:15)
http://tvthek.orf.at/programs/1310-Report


And just in case anybody here thinks their bees are safe as maize is not a common crop here: the neonicotinoids from oilseed rape can affect your bees too and lead to higher numbers of varroa, outbreaks of nosema and early failure of queens due to the delayed toxic effects of these very persistent systemic pesticides.

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## Neils

> And just in case anybody here thinks their bees are safe as maize is not a common crop here: the neonicotinoids from oilseed rape can affect your bees too and lead to higher numbers of varroa, outbreaks of nosema and early failure of queens due to the delayed toxic effects of these very persistent systemic pesticides.


What's the source for this Doris?

Again, have to ask, given the number of people, commercial and hobbyist, who deliberately take their bees to OSR, where are the mass bee die offs as a result?  Despite the media claiming these pesticides as "new" they've been kicking around since the early 90's.

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## Calum

Hi

neonicotinoids is like viagra for varroa. Under a microscope they are blue.
Its true!

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## Stromnessbees

> What's the source for this Doris?
> 
> Again, have to ask, given the number of people, commercial and hobbyist, who deliberately take their bees to OSR, where are the mass bee die offs as a result?  Despite the media claiming these pesticides as "new" they've been kicking around since the early 90's.


Oilseed rape flowers earlier than maize, so the winterbee production is not affected the same.
Your summer bees might have a shortened lifespan, too, leading to reduced yields later on.  And you can still get a depressed immune system, higher incidence of varroa, and, as Roger Patterson has been saying for a long time now, persistent problems with queens and queenrearing.

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## Neils

Don't believe that Roger has ever publicly linked queen rearing issues to neonicotinoids. I know of at least one beekeeper who directly links queen rearing problems, or more directly Drone fertility to Pyrethoid use (by beekeepers) though.

You are making assertions that this is established "fact" and I'm not sure I agree with you and especially in the context of this forum I think that needs to be challenged/clarified.

I've seen nothing linking neonicotinoids to increased varroa,  that I am very interested in so more than happy for you to point me in the direction of further reading on that subject.

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## Stromnessbees

> Don't believe that Roger has ever publicly linked queen rearing issues to neonicotinoids. I know of at least one beekeeper who directly links queen rearing problems, or more directly Drone fertility to Pyrethoid use (by beekeepers) though.


Sorry, I wrote that a bit too fast. You are right that Roger has not made that link, but the areas where those queen problems have been observed are the ones with oilseed rape. No queen problems in Orkney!

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## Stromnessbees

> I've seen nothing linking neonicotinoids to increased varroa,  that I am very interested in so more than happy for you to point me in the direction of further reading on that subject.


Randy Oliver states a clear link between neonics and varroa and nosema in his assessment of the Harvard study:




> So why did the colonies die?  Such insecticide exposure to hives in late
> summer has been clearly demonstrated to greatly increase the chance of a
> colony later dying from nosema or varroa infection during the winter.  In
> this study, poisoning the colonies all through late summer and early fall
> likely hampered the ability of the colonies to prepare a healthy population
> for winter.

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## Neils

"Such insecticide exposure" in the context of that study implies exposure at elevated levels though.

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## Jon

> Oilseed rape flowers earlier than maize, so the winterbee production is not affected the same.
> Your summer bees might have a shortened lifespan, too, leading to reduced yields later on.  And you can still get a depressed immune system, higher incidence of varroa, and, as Roger Patterson has been saying for a long time now, persistent problems with queens and queenrearing.


Doris. This is pure blether with no evidence as per usual. I had 20 acres of of seed rape beside my bees last year and I reared 110 mated queens. There were a couple superseded out of that lot.
I have 18 colonies of bees doing very well at the moment. I lost one 2 frame nuc over winter to nosema.

There is maize planted in my area as well. Bees rarely go near it when there are other pollen sources available.
Lest we forget it is primarily a wind pollinated species.
the biggest problem with maize is during the month of May when the seed is drilled as planter dust is incredibly toxic if care is not taken. I posted a link to a US report on this a couple of weeks ago.
Where you have monoculture maize, bees tend to have problems - because it is a monoculture and they do not get varied sources of pollen.

Early supersedure has been linked to nosema in research going back to the 1940s. Use google scholar and you will pull out a few references.
Some of the commercial queen rearers claim that pyrethroid strips have caused early supersedure of queens.

You are obsessively trying to twist all the evidence to support the idea that neonicotinoids are behind bee problems, ie the tripling of colony numbers in the UK in 3 years. Great problem to have.

The photos you posted from Germany look like straight varroa kill. Have you much experience treating or identifying varroa affected colonies?

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## Stromnessbees

> The photos you posted from Germany look like straight varroa kill. Have you much experience treating or identifying varroa affected colonies?


Yes I have from my beekeeping time in Austria and from working with beekeepers there. I personally checked the dead sealed brood and the hive floors of the dead colonies and varroa was not the reason for their collapse.

Anyway, ever since I have seen you twisting those Harvard study figures from 40 times to 400 times and seen how you failed to point out the parasitic fly hoax I take everything you say with a pinch of salt. Maybe it's not too late for you to get yourself a bit more education in biology so that you can learn how to read scientific studies properly.

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## Neils

Given you've quoted him elsewhere Randy Oliver also concurs that the Harvard Study used up to 400x:




> Since when has 400 ppb ever been been considered to be “environmentally relevant”? Levels of 1-4 ppb are environmentally relevant; levels above 40 ppb are usually considered to be overtly toxic. So the 400 ppb figure is 100 – 400 times as strong as the normal measured levels in the field due to seed treatment.


Still on the front page Here as part of his entire critique of the study.

No scientific understanding required, more basic reading comprehension and cross referencing of supplied data.  Not too late for that either.

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## Jon

LOL Doris. There are only two people on the planet who think that Harvard paper has merit, Yourself and Dr LU.
Most of the anti pesticide campaigners are keeping quiet about it as it is a bit of an embarrassment.

Poison is poisonous. We all learned so much from it!

Did you read Randy Oliver's critique yet?

Edit
And I concur with nellie, basic reading comprehension is all that is required for this basic yet hopelessly flawed study.

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## Neils

> Did you read Randy Oliver's critique yet?





> Randy Oliver states a clear link between neonics and varroa and nosema in his assessment of the Harvard study:


As the quote in this post comes from that critique I'd have to assume it's been read, but why give so much import on that particular sentence (other than it says what Doris presumably wants to hear) whilst ignoring absolutely everything else, especially the paragraph immediately preceding:




> I can only imagine their surprise and disappointment when after nine weekly feedings of a full half gallon of syrup intentionally spiked to overtly toxic levels, that they still noted virtually no adverse effects!  Surprisingly,  the amount of broodrearing was unaffected at the 20, 40, and 200 ppb dosages, and only slightly depressed at the clearly toxic 400 ppb dose!  Note that all the colonies were still alive at midwinter, fully 3 months after the dosing ended!  If anything, this study clearly demonstrated that colonies of bees can survive prolonged poisoning by imidacloprid at excessively high levels!


oops, that's not the desired conclusion though is it?  It's not helpful to discover that in this study even critics of it were surprised at just how high a level of imidacloprid the colonies were apparently able to tolerate.

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## Jon

Nosema is a disease which can be induced or be exacerbated by stress, any stress.

This includes any pesticide you care to mention, not just neonicotinoids.
Stress on a colony also includes interaction with additional pathogens, poor nutrition, colony nearing starvation point, too much beekeeper interference and tinkering, poor ventilation especially over winter, periods of long confinement due to weather, excessive colony density in an apiary, etc.

This much is common knowledge about nosema.
I try and manage my bees to minimise stress as I reckon varroa and nosema are the two major problems we face in UK/Irish beekeeping.

And maybe I just have to keep repeating that UK colony numbers are up from 40,000 to 140,000 in about 3 years. bbka figures. This talk of bees having big problems in the uk is just so much bull. Amongst the beekeepers I know, there are guys with near 100% success overwintering and it is  the same people every year who lose most of their colonies. This is PPB rather than CCD.
Bees are certainly having big problems in the US but so many things are different there with regard to their agriculture and their beekeeping. Far more pesticides. Different approved treatments such as soil injection. Millions of hectares of monoculture maize in the midwest. Most of the US bee colonies coming together in California during almond pollination in February. All so different.

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## Stromnessbees

> Bees are certainly having big problems in the US but so many things are different there with regard to their agriculture and their beekeeping. Far more pesticides. Different approved treatments such as soil injection. Millions of hectares of monoculture maize in the midwest. Most of the US bee colonies coming together in California during almond pollination in February. All so different.


All so different ... but for how long?

If we don't ban the neonics now and halt the introduction of GM we won't be very different soon!

These corporations know no limits, and shareholder profits go above everything. How long until UK beekeeping looks just like this?

cartoon.jpg

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## Jon

Borderbeeman posted that cartoon a couple of years ago. Old hat. You must really worship the bloke even though he *walks like a duck*.

What is your explanation for the huge increase in UK colony numbers in the past few years?
I presume you do not attribute the success to the increased use of neonicotinoid pesticides during this time although you do have serious issue re. cause and effect so anything is possible. Iphone sales have increased year on year in the same period so maybe we owe the success of UK honeybees to Steve Jobs (RIP) Or perhaps it is Facebook.

Lets start the campaign now. Ban the neonics. Death to Bayer and Syngenta. Three cheers for Carbamates, organophosphates, and pyrethroid pesticides. Bees just love that good ol' fashioned cocktail sprayed all around them like in the good old days. Party like it's 1975 all over again.

Be careful what you wish for. There is some very wooly thinking in the ban the neonic campaigns and you get some really dangerous crap back again. Dangerous to mammals as well.

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## gavin

> Maybe it's not too late for you to get yourself a bit more education in biology so that you can learn how to read scientific studies properly.


Oh well, it has come to this.  Everyone reading will understand at this point that Doris has lost the argument.

Nevertheless .....



And to be frank, I haven't a clue what is wrong is Austria.  I'm sceptical that pesticides are really to blame - as the studies elsewhere have mostly exonerated them, save those planter dust episodes - but in maize planting areas they could have a role.

G.

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## Jon

The key in any study is to isolate the variables in order to be sure of cause and effect. Monoculture maize is bad habitat for bees with or without neonicotinoid seed treatment. Bees need a wide and varied diet, especially pollen from several sources.

I saw dead colonies and there was maize planted near by so that killed the bees.
I saw dead colonies and round the corner I saw a dog so it was the dogs wot dun it or maybe a cat.
This line of thinking is nonsensical.

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## Stromnessbees

> Oh well, it has come to this.  Everyone reading will understand at this point that Doris has lost the argument.
> 
> Nevertheless .....
> 
> 
> 
> And to be frank, I haven't a clue what is wrong is Austria.  I'm sceptical that pesticides are really to blame - as the studies elsewhere have mostly exonerated them, save those planter dust episodes - but in maize planting areas they could have a role.
> 
> G.





> Borderbeeman posted that cartoon a couple of years ago.  Old hat. You must really worship the bloke even though he *walks like  a duck*.





Shame on you two, you are back to using those strategies again: Gavin uses ridicule, Jon uses association with persons that are considered unpopular.

Do I really need to remind you?




> Strategy No. 1: They write nonsensical or distractive posts  in order to make a thread that is critical about pesticides or GM  boring and uninteresting to any genuine beekeeper. - Please notice that  shills usually work as a team, boosting each other and driving the thread away from its original intention.
> 
> A second strategy is to make the pesticide or GM sceptic look ridiculous,  foolish, fanatical, an outsider or - a favourite - calling him a  conspiracy theorist. They will also try to associate him with unpopular  persons or movements.
> 
> A third strategy is to baffle the genuine reader with science:  they claim that if you haven't read certain scientific papers from  beginning to end you can't take part in the discussion, they make you  feel inferior. - Not-so-subtle psychology being used here in order to  frustrate you and to scare you away from the real issues.
> 
> Typically, posts  sent by shills appear very quickly after any concerns about pesticides  or GM are raised as  they are using the search facility all the time  just to track these topics!
> 
> If I notice this kind of behaviour here again I will not hesitate to point it out and initiate steps to curtail it.

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## Jon

Doris. Your posts lack logic. And you frequently state that you don't need to provide any evidence.
Don't be surprised when people start to have a laugh especially when you try and couple that attitude with your own academic qualifications and the perceived lack of qualifications of those debating with you. I would say you might be on a sticky wicket there as this forum has neither shills nor fools on it.

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## Neils

There comes a point where you just might as well sit back and enjoy the show.

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## gavin

> If I notice this kind of behaviour here again I will not hesitate to point it out and initiate steps to curtail it.


Doris, this reads like a threat.  Wholely inappropriate, just like your comment that Jon needs to improve his scientific skills.

If you are going to put yourself forward as a beekeeping organiser, promoter, commentator, you need people to respect both the way you act and the quality of your judgement.  Judgement can only operate if you have an open mind.  I had hoped that the discussion on here might help you arrive at that point but somehow I just don't see it happening now.  

The popcorn thing wasn't meant to be ridicule but instead to indicate that I was enjoying reading and would rather spectate.  OK, jokey, implying that the argument was going nowhere, that it was futile, but not ridicule.

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## gavin

Nellie has just raced up the poster of the week chart.

In case anyone was wondering, the poster of the week thing is so informal that there is no beginning and no recognised end.  As the 'week' never ends there will never be an actual winner, but we can have an imaginary chart.  If anyone ever declares 'Mornington Crescent' we might bring it to a temporary halt, to start again at some random time.

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## Calum

I was talking to some Austrians in Voralberg. They had heavy losses.
They were clear on the fact that it was empty hives due to varroa - at the end the bees abscond..
No mention of other causes. 
They are using the wrong method to treat against varroa (imho). Austria recommends use of 85% Fromic acid since 2010.
This greatly reduces the flexability in treatment as opposed to treating with 60% - as with 60% you can treat up to 8 times as needed. 85% Treatments are more one of long term treatments (medicine bottle or Leibigdispenser). I can treat over 8 weeks using 60% on a sponge. 

So may last treatment in a long autumn was in the first week October last year, whereas other beekeepers were finished in August.

I note that there was no comparison of varroa treatment strategy in the ages melissa study.

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## HJBee

Ok folks, as a beginner I have sat back and considered the exchange all round for the past 10 days or so. Can I please point out I find the behaviours questionable and antagonistic and are seriously putting me off a) this forum and b) the greater beekeeping community as scary folk who you want to avoid as opposed to ask / seek sensible advice from. My work place has enough politics / conflict in it, I do not want my new hobby to have that too!

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## Jon

Apparently it was Imidacloprid which did for Michael Jackson.
Even an Oxygen tent is scant protection against such a danger in our midst.

HJ Bee. It's just banter. No bees or humans are getting hurt in the exchange.
If people were annoyed they would not be back here like moths to the flame.

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## Calum

ok I want a crack at this poster of the week thingy... 

I think its bats that are doing it. Explains everything.

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## Neils

Here's how I see it currently.

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## Calum

> Ok folks, as a beginner I have sat back and considered the exchange all round for the past 10 days or so. Can I please point out I find the behaviours questionable and antagonistic and are seriously putting me off a) this forum and b) the greater beekeeping community as scary folk who you want to avoid as opposed to ask / seek sensible advice from. My work place has enough politics / conflict in it, I do not want my new hobby to have that too!


yes, but it is multiple cases of this:

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## Neils

> Ok folks, as a beginner I have sat back and considered the exchange all round for the past 10 days or so. Can I please point out I find the behaviours questionable and antagonistic and are seriously putting me off a) this forum and b) the greater beekeeping community as scary folk who you want to avoid as opposed to ask / seek sensible advice from. My work place has enough politics / conflict in it, I do not want my new hobby to have that too!


I think the point around sensible advice is important HJbee.  Do we leave "Oilseed rape will kill your bees" unchallenged as sensible advice?

The forum could just take the view that posts like that are removed completely but I don't actually think that is a sensible course of action either, who gets to decide the beekeeping gospel according to SBAi and why can't that view be challenged?

There is a sensible debate to be had around these points and unfortunately your new hobby is rife with politics at every level from the petty to crusades like this one or the Phone Mast brigades who want to pin their motives on a "save the bees" banner.

You can take a simple course of action in just avoiding any thread with the word Pesticide or neonicotinoid in it. You won't miss anything too important if pointless bun fights aren't your thing, it won't teach you anything about beekeeping or offer up any sensible practical advice. You'll find these threads on pretty much every beekeeping forum on the internet and maybe it is time on this one to start hoovering these arguments up into one big bucket so that the rest of the forum isn't over run with the same argument running in every thread.

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## Jon

False statistics and misuse of Excel

Nellie and Rosie have done Jack squat for Scottish beekeeping.
One needs a decent haircut and maybe a spell in the army and the other has a moustache and a beewing scanner.

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## HJBee

I think its bats that are doing it. 

Aye there is certainly batty beehaviour going on, not necessarily out with this site.

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## Neils

> False statistics and misuse of Excel
> 
> Nellie and Rosie have done Jack squat for Scottish beekeeping.
> One needs a decent haircut and maybe a spell in the army and the other has a moustache and a beewing scanner.


You're on there too, but in quantities too small to measure (I'll be here all week, tip your waitress, try the veal!)

Agree on the haircut, already done my time thanks very much.

I point to my SBA membership as further claim that Bristol is just south of Aberdeen and that therefore I've done loads for Scottish Beekeeping.

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## Calum

Approaching level three I fear.... .. lvl 2 is well over the other horizon on this subject.

nellie fixed it.
But this holds true, can it be applied to all threads please????

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## Jon

Meat means murder. I am considering turning every thread into a debate on animal rights.
I mean, you all want to hear that on a bee forum.

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## Neils

Hate to say it Calum because it made me laugh, but I don't really think that's a suitable link for here.

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## Jon

Woodrow Wyatt - the voice of reason.

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## Calum

> Hate to say it Calum because it made me laugh, but I don't really think that's a suitable link for here.


fixed above.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Woodrow Wyatt - the voice of reason.


and George Washington the voice of Treason

(Sorry America No offense )

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## Rosie

HJBee

You might find this little discussion a bit unsavoury but believe me many of us are here after witnessing disgraceful stuff on the other beekeeping ones.  Stick with us as you will not getter better comment or advice from anywhere else.  Doris seems to be at odds with many of our level-headed, bright and unbiased contributors but when we all tire of the subject she will return to her usual informative self.  In the meantime people are trying not to let her odd ideas go unchallenged because if we don't offer a more balanced view the forum will be as guilty of spreading misinformation as many of the others.  I fear that Doris has picked up some of her ideas from an extreme site that the rest of us have shunned.

Sorry, Doris, if you are uncomfortable about these comments but we are all waiting for return of the Doris that we all know and love.

I can't think of a joke so I'll happily hand over the poster of the week to someone else.

Rosie

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## Jon

Waiter , waiter, there's a fly in my soup....

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## Neils

It got lost after eating imidacloprid

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## lindsay s

I think we are all suffering from Cabin Fever.

Copied from Wikipedia.
"Cabin fever is an idiomatic term for a claustrophobic reaction that takes place when a person or group is isolated and/or shut in a small space, with nothing to do, for an extended period (as in a simple country vacation cottage during a long rain or snow). Symptoms include restlessness, irritability, paranoia, irrational frustration with everyday objects, forgetfulness, laughter, excessive sleeping, distrust of anyone they are with, and an urge to go outside even in the rain, snow, dark or hail.
Proposed therapy for cabin fever

One therapy for cabin fever may be as simple as getting out and interacting with nature. Research has proven that even brief interactions with nature can promote improved cognitive functioning and overall well-being."

We've had plenty of rain, hail and snow showers here and I haven't been through my bees for the last two weeks. I think it might be the same for other members of this forum. Do I qualify for poster of the week?

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## Jon

Nellie is manipulating the results for poster of the week as everyone knows I am the rightful heir to the throne.
Have you tried getting out and talking to the corncrakes? I would love to have a chat with one but the last one disappeared from the bog meadows in Belfast more than a decade ago.

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## Neils

> Do I qualify for poster of the week?

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