# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Scottish Native Honeybee Society

## Jon

A few photos from the meeting last Tuesday
avimore5.jpg avimore6.jpg avimore1.jpg avimore2.jpg avimore3.jpg:

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## Jon

avimore4.jpg
One more

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## drumgerry

There's one of them looks familiar but I can't put a name to him.... :Wink:

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## gavin

We should never have had so many forum posters in the one place - what if some disaster befell the place?!  'twas Tuesday, on Wednesday we were peering into bee hives in the rain  :Stick Out Tongue: .  I remember Tuesday well, it was the day after Monday.

Don't get too excited, dear reader, it was a planning meeting and the real action is yet to come.

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## Jon

> There's one of them looks familiar but I can't put a name to him....


That will be the guy with the classy haircut!

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## drumgerry

Aye I go for the timeless look Jon!  Me and Coco Chanel?  We're like that...(mimes with crossed fingers that the said Coco and he are very similar)

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## The Drone Ranger

> Aye I go for the timeless look Jon!  Me and Coco Chanel?  We're like that...(mimes with crossed fingers that the said Coco and he are very similar)


Is it the walk ?  as you sashay to the kitchen for your cup of Cocoa

Terrible wind here today (that's a gift  :Smile: 
Worried about hive stands blowing over

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## Kate Atchley

> avimore4.jpg


This many laughs at a planning meeting? Must be more fun to come ... but what *did* Emma put in the coffee?

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## emcampbell

Gavin was showing us his field of antenna at this point I reckon.

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## emcampbell

We should register on this network and fill out the survey...obviously I have involvement with this project so maybe Gav or another SNHBS member could do it ? Jon is your group in NI in this network ?

http://www.smartbees-fp7.eu/Extension/cons-network/

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## gavin

Done

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Gavin your in box is full  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

Hi All - seems like this is gathering pace  :Wink:  

http://www.snhbs.scot/booking-and-membership-details/

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## Greengage

Conference on here this weekend, will attend to seee how native my bees are.
http://nihbs.org/wp-content/uploads/...oneybee-AD.pdf

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## Kate Atchley

*START UP DAY* for the new *Scottish Native Honey Bee Society* ... 1 April in Perth ... all welcome ... see you there?

See our website for details and booking: http://www.snhbs.scot

xfinger-banner-7660-2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qIDyd-eMe_.jpg xfinger-banner-7660-2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qIDyd-eMe_.jpg xfinger-banner-7660-2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qIDyd-eMe_.jpg

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## Kate Atchley

Indeed it is green gumbo. See you there?

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## Thymallus

> Conference on here this weekend, will attend to seee how native my bees are.


Hopefully more native than the Cornish ones that have a good French ancestry and come between 50-80% "pure". I think pure is being used as a relative term.
http://www.b4project.co.uk/the-four-...pg-2-page-001/
So good luck and hopefully you won't resort to the Irish tactic of shotgunning hives that contain "alien" bees or so the rumours say.

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## Greengage

[QUOTE=So good luck and hopefully you won't resort to the Irish tactic of shotgunning hives that contain "alien" bees or so the rumours say.[/QUOTE]
Never heard that so it must be a rumour?????????????????
things look positive for  my colonies.

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## The Drone Ranger

You could change your forum id to   12_Gauge the Alien Hunter   GG

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## Greengage

Fields are always greener on the far side, that's because your not tending your own patch.

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## Jon

> So good luck and hopefully you won't resort to the Irish tactic of shotgunning hives that contain "alien" bees or so the rumours say.


DYOR re who is spreading that rumour on the other forum.

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## greengumbo

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...nds-honey-bee/

Come along on 1st April ! No joke !

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## Greengage

I hope yea are not going to set up an Apiary dedicated to Native Scottish honey bees. They tried that in Ireland in 2014 and this is what they had to get around. I dont know how many died in the stampedes.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-255305.html

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## gavin

> I hope yea are not going to set up an Apiary dedicated to Native Scottish honey bees. They tried that in Ireland in 2014 and this is what they had to get around. I dont know how many died in the stampedes.
> http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-255305.html


We promise not to set up apiaries beside cliffs with lots of cattle innocently wandering about!  

Somewhat grateful that the dozens of pictures the photographer took of me kneeling, leaning, standing over bee hives didn't make it to print.  I can imagine Kirsty's reaction when the photographer returned with his SD card stuffed with images: 'He looks like *that*?!!"  

At the behest of the photographer, Angus, and in some warm sunshine and still air, I lifted the first frames of the season in one colony.  Turned out to be a drone layer.  

There is one MiniPlus overwintering on that site, 5 frames of bees, three with brood, lots of food and the queen wandering about wondering where to put an egg next.  Like a good number of my full-sized poly hives they are likely to be straight into a second box in March sometime at this rate.  Some of the poly hives are full boxes of bees right now and the Amm ones mated at our isolated site are the strongest.  Just sayin'.  They can be as vigorous (and hopefully as productive) as anything from the C lineage as long as they are not inbred.  Will post some pictures soon.

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## Greengage

If you are not going to be in Europe you will not be subject to European import laws relating to bees,  :Embarrassment:  therefore you could have a ban on imports.

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## Jon

That's true but I think you will find post Brexit that the UK will be lowering the bar on most issues rather than raising it.
A lot of regulations will likely disappear for better or for worse, probably for worse.

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## Greengage

When I was looking up something different  I came across this site not everybody is happy to see Amms, I assume you will have similar problems in Scotland.
http://www.beekeeping.ie/html/open_letter.html

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## Poly Hive

No surprise there then. 

PH

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## Jon

Good luck to all involved with the organisation of the inaugural meeting tomorrow.

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## fatshark

Coverage on the Beeb today ... 
Looking forward to the launch tomorrow  :Big Grin: 

PS Disappointed by the small size of Scottish honey bee colonies ... only 10,000 according to the figure legend on the BBC.

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## lindsay s

Gavin on the BBC iplayer scroll to 19:20 you'll need to be quick it expires 2pm 1/4/17.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...-news-31032017
Here's a new link. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-39466380

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## Greengage

How did your meeting go I am just curious. Was there enthusiasm for setting it up and were there any objections.

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## greengumbo

> How did your meeting go I am just curious. Was there enthusiasm for setting it up and were there any objections.


I am sure a larger report will be posted here soon but in the meantime....

Membership stands at about 105 so far and 75 of them made the trip to the launch day  :Smile:  

It went really well and I think it was a great start for the fledgling society. I was actually surprised at the consensus and the level of commitment of folk attending. I think the biggest disagreement was if "chair" or "president" is the better title !

Lots of skillful beekeepers and queen rearing chat as well and a fantastic series of talks including by Director of Science at the RZSS, Iain Valentine, comparing bees with panda conservation.

All in all a good start - some lovely letters of support from BIBBA, NIHBS, Morna Stoakley and member 101 -  Prof Tom Seeley !

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## Greengage

Well done that means there will probably be lots of chatter on here. I know Jon is on here from NIHBS but there is no forum on line that I am aware of where people gossip about beekeeping over here. Except for Facebook but its not great for sensible info.

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## gavin

> Well done that means there will probably be lots of chatter on here. I know Jon is on here from NIHBS but there is no forum on line that I am aware of where people gossip about beekeeping over here. Except for Facebook but its not great for sensible info.


I think that we've simply been too busy for much chatter yet, and there has been a need for quite a bit of private chatter too.  Plus perhaps a reticence to use an SBA forum for the business of a non-SBA (but SBA-friendly) society.  

However, GG (other GG) was right.  It went very well.  Loads of interest, great enthusiasm, just the right attitude.  The collaborative decision making seemed to go OK, we have an excellent young volunteer to be secretary, and the speakers were excellent.  Shouldn't be long now until we get the barriers put up and can force everyone to keep only Amm (just a wee tease there for C4U ....).  No, there was a mature attitude to these issues expressed from the floor and no-one arguing against.  The big issues are the availability of stock, locating the remaining (genetically) unpolluted reservoirs of native bee genetics, agreeing just what constitutes a native honey bee (and whether we have to call them Black Bees), and, most importantly of all, as GG said, whether the corpulent guy with the bow tie should be called President or Chair. 

As far as Irish bee babbles goes, other than Facebook the (Yahoo) Irish List was one of the better ones in its day but it has fallen into disuse. 

Here are a couple of pics from Ewan's Twitter feed, https://twitter.com/snhbsociety

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## drumgerry

Would it be too overly gushing to say I found the launch day of SNHBS inspiring?!  Ach well who cares?!  To have 70+ enthusiasts in a room (of an initial 100+ membership) with a common aim to do something positive was a beautiful thing.  It's long been my dream that we could create such an organisation in Scotland and now we've done it.  I say we but I was more involved at the initial idea stage and the real work was done by Gavin, Jeff, Kate, Ewan, Emma etc etc.  Many thanks guys.

The day was a great opportunity for networking as well and it looks like a wee group of AMM enthusiasts (including myself) are going to be doing some practical work together here in Strathspey/Speyside.

Hopefully the start of great things!

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## Poly Hive

Inspiring yes. 

I wonder how many on here have worked with Carniolians?

I ask as for the last ten years or so it has been my bee of choice and a pure delight to work with. Smoker fuel? Not got any and not used it for years. Honey? Best crop 230 lbs from a double brood Nat. Err.... comb honey that is.... So.

The above is the result of careful breeding and I will take the bull by the horns and say due to Hitler the breeding started as I have been told in the past. Something that is usually glossed over but hey facts are awkward things if indeed that is true. 

If we could breed an Amm to that quality would that not be a wonderful thing?

I was wondering during one of the presentations could we not do a lot with eggs? Saves a lot of faffing around??????????????????????

Further there is now a need for a forum on the society site so that people and groups can communicate with out abusing the hospitality of here and else where. Also FB is very useful at times. And Free....!!!

PH

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## drumgerry

I think one of the points of the whole exercise for me PH will be that we can finally give the breeding attention to AMM that other strains have already had applied to them for a long time.  I see no reason why in time we won't be able to have AMMs as good as we all want.  It just needs the concerted effort to be put in and for us all to be pulling in the same direction.  I'm not naive enough to think it's going to be easy or simple but we have to make a start somewhere and I think last Saturday was that.

"Putting my money where my mouth is" has led to the beginnings of our wee group here in Strathspey/Speyside.  Not sure I'd have the time to support a dedicated forum for SNHBS.  The FB group has a bit of activity and hopefully we'll be allowed to continue on here.

Re eggs - the only time I had eggs posted to me was a disaster.  No larvae hatched.  No reason we couldn't be sending virgin queens around the country for the cost of postage as there's not a massive amount of work in producing them.  But then we have the mish mash drone population to worry about.  Andrew has some keen observations re apiary vicinity mating which are very interesting.  Is it something you came across much with Bernard's colonies?

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## Poly Hive

Early morning syndrome here. Sorry not sure what the question is? 

PH

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## prakel

> If we could breed an Amm to that quality would that not be a wonderful thing?


You're definitely right about that. The biggest issue will be getting a seriously talented bee breeder to work on the matter alongside the multitude of groups which are now becoming established. I may be treading on thin ice here (might even have to change my user name to itld as it feels a bit like doing just that!!!  :Smile:  ) but I think that there's a huge difference between the early days of establishing self sustaining Amm populations and actually breeding lines of bees which are on a par with the German/Austrian carnica or some of the buckfast lines.

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## drumgerry

The question was whether you were aware of Bernard's AMMs showing a tendency to apiary vicinity mating


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## Poly Hive

No as I took my virgins to Conon Bridge to a bee farm to mate with drones from Bernards queen line up there. Very successful it was too. 

PH

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## drumgerry

What about supercedure queens (didn't you mention you had a significant proportion of queens replaced by supercedure?)? Anything noteworthy on apiary vicinity mating with them?


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## prakel

> What about supercedure queens (didn't you mention you had a significant proportion of queens replaced by supercedure?)? Anything noteworthy on apiary vicinity mating with them


What about your bees, Drumgerry? If they do demonstrate this behaviour is it possible to upload a video?

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## Greengage

I have been away for a week and saw this in my in box http://www.hebrides-news.com/rare-bl...len-12417.html
Little shits...........

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## Poly Hive

Yes about 60% superceeded on the Heather and this was known due to marked clipped queens. It could also be annoying to find the queen you had chosen for that seasons breeding was no longer there. 

PH

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## drumgerry

I wasn't making any claims in favour of it Prakel.  It's not something I've particularly noticed in my bees but then again I don't lay claim to my bees being especially close to being pure AMM.  But it's something that both Andrew on Colonsay and I think Jon in Belfast have noticed in their AMMs.  If it's something that AMMs do in poor weather or even generally it could have major implications for the true breeding of queens in the absence of II.

I just wondered if PH when he was custodian of Bernard Mobus' AMMs had noticed anything of the like.

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## lindsay s

P.S. Losing the two colonies might be down to late supersedure but I will leave that for another post.
Thats how I finished my last post so I will carry on from here.
When I started beekeeping in the late seventies Bernard Mobus' was still coming to Orkney and carrying out beekeeping demonstrations. I only meet him once when I was asked to make up a nuc before the gathered crowd at my mentors apiary. I was very wet behind the ears and a nervous wreck but everything went ok in the end. My mentor often received queens from Bernard that came in the post from Craibstone. My mentor had very good dark bees, he breed for the best traits and he often talked about the Maud strain but that meant nothing to me at the time. He often kept four year old queens that would produce nice supersedure cells.  Late supersedure was common in his apiary and it was not unusual to have marked and unmarked queens in the same hive in September. After he died my mentors bees were distributed to several beekeepers in different parts of Orkney so that strain is now no longer pure. But the majority of colonies here are dark and a lot have a high percentage of AMM traits. 
I tend not to inspect my colonies after late August because we dont have to treat for varroa here (YET!)  But on the occasions when I have been in hives in the autumn Ive come across the odd sealed queen cell. The most annoying thing is to open up a hive in the spring and find your healthy marked queen has been replaced by a drone layer or no queen at all and just an open Q C. In Clive de Bruyns Practical Beekeeping he said supersedure is much more common than generally realized although he didnt specifically mention late supersedure. So Im none the wiser if this is just an AMM trait. :Confused:  By the way there is a good Maud bee thread on this forum.  
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ight=maud+bees

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## greengumbo

Did anyone else get the SNHBS newsletter ? 

Great stuff.

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## Kate Atchley

Yup ... as a contributor, am I allowed to agree with your "great stuff"?! 

Gavin's article on identification is a welcome addition for those interested: http://www.snhbs.scot/identifying-native-honey/

Did any members NOT receive their newsletter ... do let us know.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...Did any members NOT receive their newsletter ... do let us know.


And check your spam boxes.  It might have landed there.
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

Looked at the facebook page lots of enthusiasm not much progress ?
Or am I being pessimistic 

Useful reminder about spam though 
I haven't had that for years mmmmm!

Sun's out I'm off to check my cell raising bar  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

How much progress are you expecting after a couple of months since the society's formation DR?! Serious question.  The new society is a long term project.   Speaking personally in my wee corner of it things are moving on.  I've been grafting from one of Jimbo's Rosneath AMM queens and now have virgins on the go.  I think we're talking years before there is a Scotland wide impact of everyone's efforts.  Patience and dedication required!  Oh and optimism!

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## The Drone Ranger

> How much progress are you expecting after a couple of months since the society's formation DR?! Serious question.  The new society is a long term project.   Speaking personally in my wee corner of it things are moving on.  I've been grafting from one of Jimbo's Rosneath AMM queens and now have virgins on the go.  I think we're talking years before there is a Scotland wide impact of everyone's efforts.  Patience and dedication required!  Oh and optimism!


Only a few months drumgerry
My apologies
I wait to be amazed 


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## drumgerry

Your amazement is not our primary objective funnily enough DR.  


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## The Drone Ranger

> Your amazement is not our primary objective funnily enough DR.  
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well good luck with it anyway
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Breeding-Be.../dp/1904623182
I expect now wing scanning has been proven useless a load of scanners will turn up on eBay 

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## The Drone Ranger

I can help with a possible logo suggestion


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## drumgerry

Not sure why you've got your panties in such a bunch over this DR. God forbid people would try to overcome cynicism and do something positive. Is it because you bought a yellow "AMM" queen?  If it's from the source I think it is I'm surprised you're surprised


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## Feckless Drone

Breeding-Better-Bees-John-Dews

DR - are you on commission? Trying to recoup funds that Mrs DR does not yet know about? Supporting an economy in need? So many questions. Of course it would be poor form to name and shame the supplier.
Anyway - the point is I followed the link because the title looked interesting and I want to breed good bees. The 80 page booklet is COSTED AT £234.57p. I was intrigued this must be some good, must-have text. Thankfully there is a very useful review.

"The author spends a lot of pages in this small booklet explaining why a bee breeding program for Apis melifera melifera, the dark British bee, is essential in the UK. What is missing is how to do it and a better justification of why hybrid bees are such poor value. If you want to learn how to raise queens or select useful traits this is definitely not the book for you."   

Many thanks to the out-of-pocket reviewer.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Breeding-Better-Bees-John-Dews
> 
> DR - are you on commission? ... The 80 page booklet is COSTED AT £234.57p. ...


Thanks for the tip - I should sell mine!
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Breeding-Better-Bees-John-Dews
> 
> DR - are you on commission? Trying to recoup funds that Mrs DR does not yet know about? Supporting an economy in need? So many questions. Of course it would be poor form to name and shame the supplier.
> Anyway - the point is I followed the link because the title looked interesting and I want to breed good bees. The 80 page booklet is COSTED AT £234.57p. I was intrigued this must be some good, must-have text. Thankfully there is a very useful review.
> 
> "The author spends a lot of pages in this small booklet explaining why a bee breeding program for Apis melifera melifera, the dark British bee, is essential in the UK. What is missing is how to do it and a better justification of why hybrid bees are such poor value. If you want to learn how to raise queens or select useful traits this is definitely not the book for you."   
> 
> Many thanks to the out-of-pocket reviewer.


Just teasing drumgerry

Best plan to protect native stocks would be to take the wheels of Murray Magregors vehicles so he can't drive down to Italy for a lorry load of Italian packages

I'm doing the native bee club and everyone else a service by exposing the tat sold as AMM by importers


Hi FD 
That book is of great historical importance 
It outlines how to find a unicorn in a herd of horses
Hang on 
No I'm wrong that's another book entirely
Im going to put my copy on Amazon 
It got left out in the rain and the pages all stuck together
You can't read it now but you can still wave it around to banish bad spirits  :Smile: 

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## drumgerry

I'll re-acquire my sense of humour in a minute DR. Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive....

And absolutely agree about the crap being passed off by importers.  


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## The Drone Ranger

> I'll re-acquire my sense of humour in a minute DR. Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive....
> 
> And absolutely agree about the crap being passed off by importers.  
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can have the one I raised on the right for a tenner 
That's still £25 cheaper than the one on the left
They are both dead but I think mine is better value  :Smile: 




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## Feckless Drone

> You can have the one I raised on the right for a tenner 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Will you mark and clip for me?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Will you mark and clip for me?


No problem that's £1 extra

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## The Drone Ranger

On a different subject
 The first queens I raised and put in mininucs are laying 
Also the second lot are laying 
Had to give them fondant (bad weather) so a quick check for eggs only
The first bunch were using a cupkit cassette 
The next lot grafted
I wonder if there will be a difference in size or quality
It's not scientific (in my case) because they were different mother Qs and different queen raising hives
But it might be interesting to explore next spring



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## Poly Hive

Waste of time in my thoughts. 

It's not the how you get to the larvae in the cell so much as the feeding and nurturing from that point on and then the luck of the mating. 

PH

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## fatshark

But what about larvae already selected to be future queens?
With dozens of eggs/young larvae why do the bees choose the ones they choose?
We know there's worker policing capable of egg selection and I'm sure Gavin (or greengumbo or someone ... aargh! my brain is melting) and I once discussed selection of rare genotypes as future queens.

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## prakel

That would be the Moritz 'Royal Families' paper again  :Smile:  .

...and yes, it's quite interesting when looking at a comb of young larvae from a queen-right colony, under magnification, to observe the difference in brood food quantity between cells with larvae of much the same age. A few cells always seem to be better supplied than the rest from the very outset.

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## The Drone Ranger

I have the Queen raising frame in the hive where the larva came from Ben Harden style
Maybe the ones that dont get started are the peasants  :Smile: 

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## fatshark

> That would be the Moritz 'Royal Families' paper again


Was it you prakel? Or perhaps it was Robin? I met him at a thing in Florida recently. My brain really is going to mush.

At least the weekend is nearly here ... time for wine and beekeeping. Separately.

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## fatshark

170707-44.jpg

D'oh! Wrong sort of bee. Common carder, _Bombus pascuorum_, I think.

I expect the Amm were all out hammering the lime. For once we had a lovely calm evening and you could hear the trees humming with activity from 100 yards away. It sounded wonderful (to a beekeeper at least).

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## greengumbo

SNHBS Winter workshop on identifying native honey bees in Aberdeen on the 18th November !

Should be good day and pretty hands on.

Its free to members (www.SNHBS.scot to join !) and there are about 15 tickets remaining.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/ident...ts-38578048983

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## greengumbo

Thanks to the 40 odd members of SNHBS who attended at the weekend ! Great fun and very informative. Hope to run similar workshops next year and to start on a larger survey.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi GG 
How many members have AMM bees ?

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## greengumbo

No idea of the full 150 strong membership DR but if the workshop was representative then a high proportion ! 

One of the surprising aspects of the day was the number of Amm like types that people brought along from their stocks. Obviously it can look Amm and have wings like Amm but still not be. Encouraging though. A bigger survey is planned next year so hopefully can get a better idea of the situation.

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## Mellifera Crofter

There's some info online now at the SNHBS website to help you identify Amm, DR.
You might have some - or perhaps just near native.
Kitta

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## Greengage

> There's some info online now at the SNHBS website to help you identify Amm, DR.
> You might have some - or perhaps just near native.
> Kitta


Interesting links thanks.

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## The Drone Ranger

> There's some info online now at the SNHBS website to help you identify Amm, DR.
> You might have some - or perhaps just near native.
> Kitta


I'm sure if the bar is low enough to include Bees kept in Perthshire the I'm bound to have them in Angus as well  :Smile: 

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## The Drone Ranger

> I'm sure if the bar is low enough to include Bees kept in Perthshire the I'm bound to have them in Angus as well 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/pr...25/38054_1.jpg

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note I know -
The yellow small queen on the LEFT is Amm because the commercial supplier says so and sold it as such
The big black one on the RIGHT is not Amm because I bred that one myself and I say its not
just to make sure there is no confusion

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## greengumbo

> I'm sure if the bar is low enough to include Bees kept in Perthshire the I'm bound to have them in Angus as well 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


"bar is low enough" ? I think the bar is pretty high to be fair ! Send Gavin some bees to look at or post an image - I don't think he can do the DNA analysis by eyes though  :Wink: 

Is it surprising that colonies of near native Amm exist across Scotland ? Carnica have been the bee of choice for beefarmers and beekeepers in Germany for ages yet the stocks are still, despite this, surprisingly high in Amm genetics.

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## Kate Atchley

> "bar is low enough" ? I think the bar is pretty high to be fair ! .... Is it surprising that colonies of near native Amm exist across Scotland ? Carnica have been the bee of choice for beefarmers and beekeepers in Germany for ages yet the stocks are still, despite this, surprisingly high in Amm genetics.


It's becoming more and more evident that the native bee/Amm prevails in our northern climate and tends to mate with its own kind, if possible. Here in the Ardnamurchan, surely helped by 4 successive poor, wet seasons for the bees, has shown this to be so. The bees which have survived and mated successfully in these conditions are showing little or no signs of their earlier mild hybridisation. Research findings will tell us more about this soon ... watch this space!

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## Poly Hive

Nothing new about this really as it has always been thus. Murry has said often that his bees go black over time regardless of the origin. Bernard said the same thing. 

PH

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## Kate Atchley

> ....Obviously it can look Amm and have wings like Amm but still not be. 
> 
> Encouraging though. A bigger survey is planned next year so hopefully can get a better idea of the situation.


Surely the jury is out on your observation GG. My own guess is that if you study carefully ALL the physical/morphological traits shared at the Aberdeen workshop on identification, including the wings, and if this gives top scores on them all, the DNA will probably show them to be Amm.

With the various research studies being carried out, we are already getting close to the answer on this. The SNHBS survey should help move us much closer to a reliably answer, assuming we can raise the funds to do DNA analysis on those bees found to display in full all the known physical traits with no counter-indications.

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## The Drone Ranger

> "bar is low enough" ? I think the bar is pretty high to be fair ! Send Gavin some bees to look at or post an image - I don't think he can do the DNA analysis by eyes though 
> 
> Is it surprising that colonies of near native Amm exist across Scotland ? Carnica have been the bee of choice for beefarmers and beekeepers in Germany for ages yet the stocks are still, despite this, surprisingly high in Amm genetics.


I can always tell if someone is Swedish just by looking at their blue eyes, fair skin ,blonde hair ,and tall willowy frames

here`s a good example 


The teashirts in particular are very close

[SNIP] Copyrighted image [/SNIP]

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## The Drone Ranger

> I can always tell if someone is Swedish just by looking at their blue eyes, fair skin ,blonde hair ,and tall willowy frames
> 
> here`s a good example 
> 
> 
> The teashirts in particular are very close
> 
> [SNIP] Copyrighted image [/SNIP]
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


sorry about image issue 

here's my point  
No matter what things look like, once the genetics have been mixed, you can only go forwards with what you have 
There is no natural system where over a reasonable time period the mixing can be reversed 
Therefore you can choose bees which have certain colour or hair or wing attributes 
Thats not the same as reversing the mixing or hybridisation

Lets take the example of a chicken breed The Marsh Daisy
http://www.marshdaisy.org.uk/
The 81 members of that society are trying to "save" a breed of chicken
http://www.marshdaisy.org.uk/feather...vice-from-1922
At least they like dog breeders they have some pedigree information

If I gave you several Collie alsatian crossbreeds you might over many generations unscramble them and end up with a true breeding line of Alsatian types and another of Collie types
At any point you could say this dog is a Collie because it looks like one 
At a later point you might say that by detecting DNA SNiPs which match those found in Pedigree Collies makes the animal a Collie
BUT without pedigree as far as any reasonable definition goes it is not a Collie its a dog like a Collie or a new breed of Collie
Don't turn up with one at Crufts unless he goes into the any other or mongrel categories

Now if it makes people happy to say they have AMM bees and they are happy then I am not knocking that any more than the chap who wears a fake Rolex because it looks and works just as good as the real one

I only object when someone tries to sell/pass off the fake Rolex to me by describing a Rolex and delivering a Timex

I am not of a religious persuasion I think it represents delusional thinking, but neither am I an Atheist, so once someone comes up with a reasoned argument supporting the miracle of AMM pure strains emerging from the genetic soup of central Scotlands bee population I will be the first one to say sorry for doubting and can we go back to shore because walking on water scares me

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## The Drone Ranger

> "bar is low enough" ? I think the bar is pretty high to be fair ! Send Gavin some bees to look at or post an image - I don't think he can do the DNA analysis by eyes though 
> 
> Is it surprising that colonies of near native Amm exist across Scotland ? Carnica have been the bee of choice for beefarmers and beekeepers in Germany for ages yet the stocks are still, despite this, surprisingly high in Amm genetics.


No surprise that even the German beekeepers can't reverse hybridisation despite years of working in unison (mostly)

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## emcampbell

A wee update on recent events has been put out by SNHBS:

http://www.snhbs.scot/identify-those...november-2017/

Next event is the AGM on Saturday, 17 March in Kinross near Perth, where one of the worlds lead bee researchers, Per Kryger, will give a talk on bee breeding and the conservation of AMM.

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## Greengage

That link was interesting I wonder if NIHBS in Ireland thought of running something along these lines.

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## emcampbell

Hi all - membership now only £20 till end of 2018. 

http://www.snhbs.scot/membership/

Spring meeting confirmed as 17th March in Loch Leven Community College, Kinross and is free if members  :Smile: 

Info on meeting below. If you join up as a member you will get note on how to register and further info.

http://www.snhbs.scot/events-2/

Cheers

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## Kate Atchley

> Spring meeting confirmed as 17th March in Loch Leven Community College, Kinross and is free if members  Info on meeting below. If you join up as a member you will get note on how to register and further info. http://www.snhbs.scot/events-2/ Cheers


See you there Ewan ... last year's meeting was great ... let's better that this year? Like the sound of Per Kryger's talk ... and the venue ... haven't been there before.

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## Poly Hive

You do all realise that is the same weekend as the SBA AGM? personally I can only attend one so it won't be the SNHS.

PH

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## emcampbell

> You do all realise that is the same weekend as the SBA AGM? personally I can only attend one so it won't be the SNHS.
> 
> PH


Yup we are aware of that and most of us organisers will be at both. SNHBS on Saturday / SBA on Sunday. Venues are pretty close as well which means people travelling from distance can stay local.

Sorry you won't be able to make it Pete. Should be fun.

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## Poly Hive

Aye well I am having to make some hard choices as the priority at the moment is the house and garden.

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## emcampbell

*Scottish Native Honey Bee Society*
Annual Meeting – Loch Leven Community Campus, Kinross
Saturday 17 March 2018 at 10:00-16:00  

Speakers:
*Per Kryger, Aarhus University, Denmark. * 
Per is a Danish scientist working in the SMARTBEES and other projects.  He will give us an update on progress exploring genetic variation in honey bees and on the tools becoming available for breeders.  
*Jon Getty, Native Irish Honey Bee Society.*
Jon is secretary of the Belfast Beekeepers Association and the webmaster of NIHBS.  He will share his extensive knowledge of queen rearing and the use of mini-nuclei. 
*Ian Lennox, Coordinator* of the new project on assessing the status of native honey bees in Scotland.  
Ian will report on the activities of a newly formed group to support this project and on the progress expected in 2018. 
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*Business meeting:*
Report from the Chair on SNHBS activities since the launch and a look ahead to 2018 and beyond.
Financial report; Members’ forum; Changes to the Constitution; Election of the new board.
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*The meeting is open to members.*  Anyone interested can join the society for £20 at www.snhbs.scot
A buffet lunch will be available at £7.50 for people registering their interest by 10 March via the *Eventbrite link* at the website above.

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## emcampbell

Quick update !

Recently the society has been asking for samples of "AMM" like bees for a survey across Scotland. This was done in three stages....1st beekeepers were asked to get hi-res images of likely colonies which were assessed by a panel of experts visually. Any promising colonies were then sampled and assessed more closely and wing morph done on a discriminatory basis. Finally an overall score was assigned and if a threshold was reached a sample of bees was sent off to be analysed using a cutting edge NextGen DNA analysis method being developed across the EU to discriminate sub-species. The Scottish samples are in the pilot of this new technology that if successful will be available to beekeepers to assess colonies for subspecies but also a range of breeding factors and for a low per sample cost. 

Will be interesting to find out results ! Thanks to contributors.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Did the bee samples arrive still alive at their final destination, Ewan?

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## lindsay s

Sue our bee secretary managed to get a few of us here to send off samples last week. I sent off 4 and we’re hoping some of the Orkney bees  made it to the last stage.

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## greengumbo

> Did the bee samples arrive still alive at their final destination, Ewan?


They were processed in Aberdeen and arrived in Denmark in sample buffer as intended  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

Oh!  Thanks Ewan.  Im glad to hear they didnt have to travel live all the way to Denmark with a few days wait in Aberdeen as well.

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## Mellifera Crofter

The next SNHBS annual meeting on 30 March at Loch Leven (same place as last year) - here -.

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## greengumbo

Looking forward to it !

Lots of people already signed up so should be a great day again.

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## greengumbo

> Looking forward to it !
> 
> Lots of people already signed up so should be a great day again.


Thanks to all that attended. I think it was over 70 in the end  :Smile: 

Some great talks and encouraging news on the "Conservation project". Good to hear of breeding groups getting going as well.

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