# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Need help with drawing and morphplot

## Wraith

Firstly I have gone through my wings and have shuffled the points as such...



Do they look correct placements?

Next is I forgot what comes next, ( I know Rosie showed me but It's gone out of my head) How do I get data out of drawwing and onto morphplot?

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## The Drone Ranger

Just looking at it thats an AMM wing

Better get a thicker beesuit pronto LOL

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## Jon

None of your bad talk DR.
I work mine with just a veil or a £6 observation smock.
The problem is with the hybrids.
Pure race bees of any sub species are well behaved.

Wraith
The placements look ok
In Drawwing after finishing the scans:

Click 'view' then 'indexes from directory' the click ok. Cut and paste the data into morphplot.

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## The Drone Ranger

Ha Ha! just kidding

Doesn't Morphology point to AMM having a longer sting and larger venom sacks.??

By the way is the wing an AMM type one Neg CI  ?

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## Jon

> By the way is the wing an AMM type one Neg CI  ?


It doesn't look like an amm wing to the naked eye. The CI is definitely high and I would say the DS is marginally positive.

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## The Drone Ranger

> It doesn't look like an amm wing to the naked eye. The CI is definitely high and I would say the DS is marginally positive.


Oh well back to the drawing board

Here's my drawing the little green dot to the right of the line is described as a positive shift
And the little blue line would fit into the orange one about 3 times

Looks like a Carniolan nice

How did I do Jon  :Smile: 

http://www.beeworks.com/morphometry/index.html

Here's a link to illustrate how morphometry can help

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## Wraith

This was them in Early May



This is what I took on the 17th after atrifcally swarming them a month or so before



And Yes Drone Ranger is the winner, I'm booked into the doctors this afternoon cos I have a sting thats turned my left forearm into popeye, Pharmacy reckon it's infected, I know it chuffing hurts and I have pins and needles in my fingers now and then!!!

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## Jon

DR.
The perpendicular line has to pass through point 2.

Looks like half man half bicycle between AMM and Carnica.

carnica plot with AMM.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR.
> The perpendicular line has to pass through point 2.
> 
> Looks like half man half bicycle between AMM and Carnica.
> 
> carnica plot with AMM.jpg


I just drew the line from the mid point at right angles that was wrong 
That's good -- long live the queen

Wraith looks like the plot is moving in the right direction for AMM anyway so that's good  
Bad luck on the sting thing sounds like its way beyond antihistamines now.
My cat bit me last year and I had to have antibiotics the hand doubled in size thats why I'm campaigning against cat genes in the GM bee design forum

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## Jon

Might be hard to get a proper quorum of cats in an apidea.
Easier to use jellyfish genes.

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## Wraith

I already take the strongest antihistamines the docs prescribe as my hayfever is quite bad, now on the 10mg over the counter stuff i'm on 180mg stuff and my arm still went like this!

Cats are just wrong and all should be put down.  I'm not allowed to let my dogs crap in other peoples gardens but cats are allowed!!

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## Wraith

To get back on subject  :Wink:  If I take wings from drones whose blood line am I looking at?? Is it the Queens?

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## Jimbo

Would like to comment on drawwing but in Ausria looking for bees

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## Jon

Jimbo - Must be like a lunar landscape there after the bee apocalypse.
If you look at drones you are looking at the genetics of their mother queen as opposed to the drones she mated with but bear in mind that the morphometry is different between drone wings and worker wings. I haven't heard of anyone looking at drone wings.
Drone ranger might have a vested interest. (in keeping his wings attached)

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## gavin

> If you look at drones you are looking at the genetics of their mother queen as opposed to the drones she mated with but bear in mind that the morphometry is different between drone wings and worker wings. I haven't heard of anyone looking at drone wings.


Didn't Doris have a look in her more sensible days?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Jimbo - Must be like a lunar landscape there after the bee apocalypse.
> If you look at drones you are looking at the genetics of their mother queen as opposed to the drones she mated with but bear in mind that the morphometry is different between drone wings and worker wings. I haven't heard of anyone looking at drone wings.
> Drone ranger might have a vested interest. (in keeping his wings attached)



If drones were checked they would need to come from above a queen excluder to make sure they are residents not visitors

But

What I find attractive in the drone wing morph measurement option is a couple of drones would be enough.

The selected queen need only be encouraged to flood the area with drones 
Any grafting from that queen would guarantee 50% genes were the desired ones


Any beekeeper could supply one drone to a mapping project

Only a couple of drones would need to be checked

There might be 50,000 bees in a hive 30 is a small sample and I think most people would agree sampling workers depends on local drone population for results
You might have a pure Amm virgin mated in a commercial beekeeping area and see disappointing scattergram 

I think I will start breeding a primorsky  bee from the hybrids I have
 I'm sure the genes are in there somewhere LOL

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## Wraith

What do you mean the Morphometery is different in drones? Will drawwing and Morphplot still work, or is it completely different methods? 

My asking is to see what my queens are, are they the Carniolans with AMM breeding into her, or is she AMM and out breeding with Carniolans, ( Queens are unknown ) to me, not purchased just a swarm from a beek who split their hive. Who didn't know origins.

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## The Drone Ranger

> What do you mean the Morphometery is different in drones? Will drawwing and Morphplot still work, or is it completely different methods? 
> 
> My asking is to see what my queens are, are they the Carniolans with AMM breeding into her, or is she AMM and out breeding with Carniolans, ( Queens are unknown ) to me, not purchased just a swarm from a beek who split their hive. Who didn't know origins.


Haven't heard of anyone compiling data on drone wings
These morph programs began life on the linux operating system and have been built on before and after transferring to the windows operating system
I think one of the recognition parts was originally based on a tree ring identification application

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## Wraith

Well here's two drones from this morning, From the same colony taken from inside the hive above the QE.........



Now I know nobody has looked into it and Later on I shall be doing more searching on tinternet, But doesn't that show the drones being AMM??? And the queen mated with non AMM??

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## Jon

AMM Drones have a CI value lower than workers, 1.0 - 1.5 as opposed to, 1.3-2.1 but it certainly looks to be nearer what you would expect.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/morphometry.html

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## gavin

Have a look at the drone as you pluck its wing off (or before you humanely dispatch it somehow).  They come colour coded.  Hate to encourage gingerism (I'm quite fond of red-heads and I have a daughter of that hue) but these are the ones unadapted to the UK climate.  The locals are dark brown, blackish even.

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## Jon

here is one of my frames of drones from last year.
No ginger in there.

drones on frame.jpg

I like to see a couple of frames like this in every colony.

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## gavin

You must have Photoshopped that one.  I should take a picture of some of mine.  You'll see the Brechin (ish) influence in them.

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## gavin

> I already take the strongest antihistamines the docs prescribe as my hayfever is quite bad, now on the 10mg over the counter stuff i'm on 180mg stuff and my arm still went like this!


We count the pollen types in the air and grass is making an appearance here in quentity now.  Hopefully next year, after all that raw honey you'll be eating over-winter and in the spring, you'll have less of a problem with hay fever.  So they say anyway.

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## Wraith

I start Mid feb normally, by now I normally have stopped taking them but it's still going this year. I doubt it'll be a full cure, I already eat local honey from local honey producer and thats not doing much for me.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Have a look at the drone as you pluck its wing off (or before you humanely dispatch it somehow).  They come colour coded.  Hate to encourage gingerism (I'm quite fond of red-heads and I have a daughter of that hue) but these are the ones unadapted to the UK climate.  The locals are dark brown, blackish even.


If only they were unadapted they would disappear then but they don't

I think sampling drones would be a better bet in lowland Scotland where the drone population is loaded toward Carniolan in early season.
You might then graft from those queens and go for late mating to give the best chance of accessing local or possibly even AMM drones if you have breeding group 
Artificial swarming in May/Jun or early grafting probably just means a commercial Carniolan takeover.
In non Commercial areas (where bees struggle or difficult to access) breeding can be controlled to some extent
But if someone foolishly buys a £75 amm queen this year then next year her daughter will have an Aussie accent and possibly be a body line bowler as well
Often people are told buy local bees but they can be very exotic depending on where the queens were mated (cue Rolf Harris "can ye tell what it is yet")
Also if they are this years queen they will have to have been mated early
Better to say buy an overwintered late mated nuc ?

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