# Beekeepers beekeeping > Scottish Beekeepers Association >  SBA Queen raising workshop

## gavin

A wonderful day at the Dunfermline and West Fife BKA where Enid, John and several helpers ran an excellent workshop this weekend ...

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with superb presentations by Terry Clare, President of BIBBA, who came all the way from Kent ...

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... and with the kindly cooperation of hundreds of thousands of brown Apis mellifera mellifera (and their close hybrid derivatives), alive and well in Fife.

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on a shoulder..jpg
roof licking..jpg

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## gavin

Folk came from far and wide, including Inverness, Wester Ross, Oban, Helensburgh, Ayr, Peeblesshire, the Lothians and several places inbetween.

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We saw queen raising in starter and finisher colonies, and queen raising using the queen-right method commonly called the Ben Harden method.  Ben acknowledges that the method is one from Wilkinson and Brown of the NBU and full details are described there.

setting up Ben Ha.jpg

plus the Jenter and Cupkit queen raising systems and home-made wax cups.   Grafting proved a little easier than most people feared.

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## Jimbo

Hi Gavin,

Do you never sleep! I was also on the SBA bee breeding course and can say this was the best instructive and hands on course I have ever attended. Terry, Enid, John and all the helpers from Dunfermline should take a bow. I would recommend that this type of course should be run annually or at least bi-annual
I am off to the bees now to do my queen breeding properly!

Jimbo

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## gavin

Great to see you there Jim.  I'll second all of that!  Except that I do sleep, only not enough ....

Well done folks, it was really good.  Anyone else with pictures they'd like to share?

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## Jon

That looked like a great course.
Whose bees did you use? - they look just like mine.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,

The bees were supplied by Enid Brown and John Durkacz both who are interested in the conservation of native black bees. John and myself have also been working on morph samples from other beekeepers in Scotland.

Jimbo

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## Jon

I am trying grafting for the first time this year.
I just set up a second queen right cellraising colony last Friday.
I have been having very mixed results.
The first attempt we got 9/20 started but subsequently it has been 2/20 or similar.
I have got about 15 cells on the go, the first due to hatch tomorrow but I am doing an inordinate amount of repeat grafting to get this far.
Apart from the obvious, which is that my grafting technique leaves someting to be desired, what are the top tips from the course to increase success?

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## gavin

Be nice to the larvae, work quickly and return them without delay.  Don't use any that touch the sides.  Still, warm conditions (maybe in a car).  Transfer them with some royal jelly.  Don't go for the youngest, around 1 day is fine.  No need to prepare the cups, no need to charge them with larvae then discard them before the proper run, as some people do.

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## Jon

Hmm.
The hardest part of that is the mention of a car as my mode of transport is the humble bicycle.
How much royal jelly should you transfer, just a wafer thin smidgen or a reasonable amount?
That's also an interesting comment  about those which touch the sides I I kid myself that they have not been damaged.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,

I also had a go at grafting which is not as hard as people make out. My tips from the weekend. Use a frame of nice light coloured drawn comb. Usually the queen will be on it. Brush off all the bees Look for larvae at all stages. If there is sealed brood in the middle look further out for the young larvae and eggs. 
If you have to carry the frame any distance wet a tea towel with hot water from a flask, wring it out and let it start to cool. Wrap the frame in the towel This will preserve the larvae better with humidity and warmth. On the weekend we did not do this as we were grafting next to the hives. You need to be sitting preferably at a table with good light. I used a light head magnifying glass to see the larvae. We cut along a row of larvae with a sharp knife to see and help lift out the larvae. I used the chinese grafting tool which I prefered as you can slide the larvae off. I tried various other tool but found them more difficult. We did not charge the wax cups or the plastic cups we just put the larvae into. The important bit is the larvae have to be 1 day old and the frame of grafts must go into a strong queenless colony that have brood that is too old to make new queen cells. You must also feed at all times.
I intend to try grafting this thursday with me old mentor Ben Bellamy who is 83 yrs old but is still wanting to give it a go. I will keep you informed on how it goes.
On a different note I saw my first virgin queen this year emerge. The first time I have seen this. She was born at 10.33am. I felt like a proud father and if any other people had been there I would have handed out the cigars and drink.

Jimbo

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## gavin

> How much royal jelly should you transfer, just a wafer thin smidgen or a reasonable amount?


I doubt that it is crucial as some folk lift larvae rather than scoop them as we were doing with those Chinese tools with the very thin flexible ends and the plunger to push them off.

Not putting too many at once in one colony was another factor mentioned.  Maybe a dozen.

G.

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## Jimbo

Started putting the course theory into practice last night with Ben Bellamy's queen and Jenter system. Queen had laid eggs in the Jenter, due to put them into a queenless colony on Sun afternoon. Will keep you posted on our results.
The problem I had with the queen raising course there were so many good ways to produce queens It was deciding which method to try. We decided on using the Jenter first just to hopefully get queen cells to try in mininucs. If this is successful then we may try grafting. The other problem we have is the amount of equipment we need to produce lots of queens. ie nuc and mini nucs.

Jimbo

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## Jon

> Started putting the course theory into practice last night with Ben Bellamy's queen and Jenter system. Queen had laid eggs in the Jenter, due to put them into a queenless colony on Sun afternoon. Will keep you posted on our results.
> The problem I had with the queen raising course there were so many good ways to produce queens It was deciding which method to try. We decided on using the Jenter first just to hopefully get queen cells to try in mininucs. If this is successful then we may try grafting. The other problem we have is the amount of equipment we need to produce lots of queens. ie nuc and mini nucs.
> 
> Jimbo


The mini nucs end up costing a fortune. I have 7 Apideas and ordered another 3 a couple of days ago.
I prefer 3 frame nucs for mating queens but this year I want to take virgin queens for mating to a couple of apiaries and it is so much handier to use the Apideas.
The allure of their Galtee drones!
I make the nucs myself for next to nothing with correx and gaffer tape. Did you not save any of that election propaganda? I have enough to make 16 nucs and lids.
I have been sticking at the grafting and I think I am getting marginally better. I had 8 more cells started yesterday and have about 20 cells on the go altogether.
9 or the 10 cells we put in nucs or apideas last Sunday have hatched and the other queen was scrabbling about inside her cell but was dead the next day when I checked. I probably should have opened the cell for her.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,

Between Ben and myself I think we have about 12 Mini nucs of various makes and about 15 Nuc boxes. We want to go down the mini nuc road as you don't need as many nurse bees as a Nuc box. I make my own nuc boxes from a sheet of 6mm ply from B&Q. I give them the sizes and they do the cutting. I just have to nail it together. I think I got at least 4 nucs/sheet at a cost of £23.00. One way I was told to check if you have a good queen cell is to 'candle' the sealed cell with a torch, similar to chicken eggs, before putting it into the mini nuc.
If this first batch works I think we will try grafting next.

Jimbo

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## Jon

> One way I was told to check if you have a good queen cell is to 'candle' the sealed cell with a torch, similar to chicken eggs, before putting it into the mini nuc.
> If this first batch works I think we will try grafting next.
> 
> Jimbo


You can actually see the queen moving through the base of the cup with the cupkit system. She was alive when I put the cell in the nuc but failed to emerge and probably starved.
Maybe that is one of the first rungs of selection of hardier individuals.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon/Gavin,

Just an update. After the bee breeding course I had a go, not with grafting but using Cupkit. I got eggs within 24hr, 1 day larvae on day 4, used 10 larvae in a queenless colony and have now got 8 near capped queen cells from 10. My next move is to get them into Apidea's next week for mating. I have a question If they mate ok what do you do next? Do you move them into a nuc box to build up? and how do you get a new mated queen and a cupfull of bees transferred from Apidea to nuc. My other question is when would you stop producing queen cells? If we are getting into July is it a bit late to get the colony built up for the winter or is there time to get another round in?  Any advise and thoughts apreciated.

Jimbo

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## Jon

Hi Jimbo




> Do you move them into a nuc box to build up? and how do you get a new mated queen and a cupfull of bees transferred from Apidea to nuc.


There are various possibilities.
You can unite via newspaper by sliding out the base of the apidea and setting it over the hole in the crown board.
You could remove the queen from the apidea and put her in a cage to introduce into a new colony or nuc.
You could put the queen inside a queen introduction cage. (the one second from last in the list) I bought one of these and tried it for the first time today. You put the cage over an area of hatching brood and the newly emerging bees accept her and the queen lays in the cells where they emerged. (in theory) The cage is removed after a couple of days.

There will always be some losses when you try to introduce a queen.
I think I had one balled at the weekend.
There is also research which shows that a mated queen is much more likely to be accepted when she is a month old rather than just laying for a few days so it might be best to wait a while before introduction. I don't have the reference to hand but I think it was Australian research.

I have 40+ cells due to hatch from next Tuesday. I have a few queens mated already and I left 8 apideas with virgins at an Apiary with Galtee queens last Thursday.




> My other question is when would you stop producing queen cells?


I have had queens mated well into September so you are ok until mid August weather permitting. You might find that AMM drones are more likely to be flying at the tail end of the season which would suit. Several of my colonies are headed by queens mated in August and September.
You might have to add frames of emerging brood from a stronger colony to build up the late ones.
I had several which were down to 1-2 frames of bees in April and this is barely viable.

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## Jon

I have my last batch of 14 queen cells hatching this Saturday and Sunday.
I am going to be away for three weeks in August but I reckon it would have been possible to keep it going a week or two more.

How are youse all getting on with getting queens mated?
I have had quite a few get lost on mating flights but still have more than enough to do me.
I meant to sell a few nucs but haven't really got round to it so I think I will be overwintering quite a few.
I don't mind as it will give me a good chance to look at the queens and keep the best ones to head colonies next year.
I have some lovely queens from my colony 33, all jet black, and several from colony 31 which are generally browner and slightly banded.

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## Alvearium

Just to say how pleased we all were that the course went well. The bees quickly recovered with the good weather in early June and we managed to get some grafting done and set up mininucs. Some queens have been slow to get mated with the recent changeable weather.....but we live in hope. I have been experimenting with different sized mininucs and ways of setting them out. Some pics attached. Anyone out there with experience of the very small mininucs? 
Alvearium

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## Jimbo

Hi Alvearium,

After the course I used the cupkit to get my 1 day old larvae. I got 8 from 10 larvae accepted and finally got 7 usable queen cells produced. I used 1 cell in the cell raiser colony and 1 in a queenless nuc. The other 5 cells I inserted into 4 Swi-Bine mini nucs and 1 Apidea. I have removed the queen cells and it looks as though they have all hatched OK There is still not evidence of successful mating yet although one Swi-Bine looks as though there is a drone layer. The recent poor weather I think has set them back but I am still hoping for some success.

Jimbo

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## Jon

> Anyone out there with experience of the very small mininucs? 
> Alvearium


I use the Apideas shown in your last photo.
I have had about a dozen queens mated in them so far, mostly taking 12-16 days from queen cell hatching.
My sidekick Tim uses the white ones shown in the first photo. He has 15 of them and has had quite a few queens mated this year as well.
They are cheaper but take a lot of bees to fill, more than double the amount of the Apideas.
The white ones are probably big enough to overwinter queens, although I haven't tried that.
They are also a lot cheaper than the Apideas (£11 as opposed to £18)  although the Apideas are far better quality.
There is a vent under the white ones and bees cluster under them like they do with an open mesh floor.
You have to check them carefully before putting them in the car as there can be quite a few bees under them.
I also use nucs with 2-3 standard deep frames for mating queens and have about 10 mated this way as well.

The weather has turned bad here as well but I had 5 more queens start laying since last weekend I have 9 Apideas still to check at another Apiary so might have a few more over there.

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## Jimbo

The white mini nuc in the photo looks like a Warnholz which is slightly bigger than the Swi-Bine and Apidea. I was took you need 300ml of bees instead of 250ml of bees for the others. There is a smaller mini nuc called the Warnholz mini Bivo small mating nuc which I have no experience with but there is information on Dave Cushmans web site and I think the last BIBBA magazine.

Jimbo

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## Jon

I don't know about ml but the Apideas need around 300 bees which is about a cupful, and the Warnholz need a minimum of two cupfuls and would probably be better with more. They are easily twice the internal volume of the Apideas. I have spent the last month filling both types for other beekeepers getting involved in queen rearing.
Each has its pros and cons. The sliding parts are really hard to move on the Warnholz.
All in all I would recommend the Apideas as they should last a lifetime.
Either type does the job.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,
You are right a mug holds about 250ml. I measured 250ml into my plastic mug and marked the level (spot the scientist) I never actually counted the bees. For the sliding part and lids etc I smear on vasaline. It works a treat. I don't put vasaline near the sliding door as I don't want it to close acidentially. I also stick a map pin in to keep the door up on the Swi-Bine.

Jimbo

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## Alvearium

Jimbo
I am off to check the mininucs today; hopefully the better forecast for the weekend will sort things out. Best of luck to your efforts.
Alvearium

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## gavin

Chaps

I'm reading all this with interest.  Definitely will be a mini-nuc user next year, and we'll try to do something around the local association apiary to spread the word and maybe spread some good genetics too.

G.

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## Jimbo

Hi Gavin,

I would recommend an association to invest in the cupkit system at around £50.00. This eliminates the need to do grafting but gives the same result i.e. up to 100 one day old larvae. The rest is raising the queen cells and mating in mini nucs. The members could purchase their own mini-nucs and you could have a day when they just turn up to pick up their queen cell. I am going to suggest this to our association next year as I see this as good group excercise. The members who want to get into breeding further could also help in the production of the queen cells for the other members.

Jimbo

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## Jon

Gavin, that could work well.
This year I have roped in beekeepers with about 50 mating nucs between them and I am raising the queen cells to put in them. (see blog entry)
People are really keen on this if they are helped out at the start and you can see the enthusiasm grow when they get their first queen mated in an Apidea
It also helps if you have a couple of sites where queens can be mated with reliable drones.
Be prepared to spend a lot of time showing people how to fill Apideas with bees if you go down this route.
It's good to pool resources as the cheapest I have seen an Apidea is £18. The Warnholz cost £11.

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## gavin

Thanks for the tips guys.  Yes, definitely need a drone mating site and I'll have some time to go looking for one during the first week in August (hint, hint, Alvearium).  I wouldn't have thought about using the Cupkit system Jim, but I do see the advantage for a quick mass-production of Q cells which would be ideal for association events.

Jon - who supplies Apideas at £18?  I have some Awards for All funds to spend ....

G.

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## Jon

> Jon - who supplies Apideas at £18?  I have some Awards for All funds to spend ....
> 
> G.


Buzzy Bee shop

I bought 1 swi bine to try it out but they are cheap tat, imho.

You don't need to buy spare frames either if you can use a Stanley Knife to cut a piece of correx to the right length and width.

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