# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Is inbreeding an issue with bees

## snimmo243

I'm fairly new to beekeeping, I got my first nuc from my local assosciation in 2009, in 2011 I split this colony giving me my current 2 colonies, if I split these 2 colonies this year is there a risk of inbreeding? according to beebase there are 25 (registered) apiaries within 10km of my apiary.
Do I need to source "new blood"?
If so When?

Steven

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## Jon

It's only really an issue if you live on an island with very few colonies or in a very isolated area.
Drones can fly 10 miles to mate.
There are a couple of marathon threads on bee genetics and inbreeding on the forum from a couple of years ago if you have the energy to wade through them.

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## nemphlar

I'd be wary of assuming that there is enough diversity in the area to never bring in fresh blood. I get a horrible banded bee if I breed queens in upper Clyde valley, but move 2miles further up and 300ft higher and they are consistently dark. unless you know who the beeks in the area are and how strong the hives are, bringing in a good quality queen every 3 or 4 years has to be good. Every wild colony I was aware of in my area has died

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## Jon

I agree with regard to bringing in the odd new queen every few years but your problem is introgression of genetic material from other races or mongrels leading to hybridization rather than inbreeding.
We all have there same problem on occasion as there are no isolated mating stations.
Best approach is to get together with other local beekeepers and make sure you are all keeping the same race of bee - hopefully a nice black one!

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## nemphlar

I could never breed a consistently dark gentle bee when I breed them on the valley floor and its quite likely most of he lovers of the prolific cuddly imports never worked with gentle dark types due to availability. Top of the hill a different matter where they are consistently dark, the fact they are constantly dark would seem to me to indicate I am not getting the mixed input I did previously leading eventually to in breeding

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## snimmo243

Thanks for the replies, I suppose my immediate concern is that this year my original queen is 4 years old, my plan (all being well!) is to split this colony then unite the colonies back together replacing the old queen with her daughter, at this stage of my beekeeping is this ok?
PS how do I determine which breed my bees are?

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## gavin

> Thanks for the replies, I suppose my immediate concern is that this year my original queen is 4 years old, my plan (all being well!) is to split this colony then unite the colonies back together replacing the old queen with her daughter, at this stage of my beekeeping is this ok?
> PS how do I determine which breed my bees are?


Four years is a grand old age for a queen.  Check in the spring to see if it is the same one - old queens often get replaced by supercedure.

Wait for the colony to make its own queen cells (not giving all the extra space they need may bring this on in a reasonably strong colony) in May or June.  Then I'd do an artificial swarm and probably also split off a nucleus so that you have two chances for a new queen, as well as keeping the old one for now.

 Races of bees?  You could try the 'introduction to the course' here: http://www.sbai.org.uk/Breeding/  (with thanks to those whose images I borrowed!) and there is also a link on the page to Ruttner's table of the four proncipal European races of honeybee.  Otherwise post some pics here.  Most bees in Scotland are some version of a blend between the native type and imported races.

G.

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## Poly Hive

Not every AMM colony is placid, far from it, Pluscarden Abbey at one time was notorious. I have had some lovely quiet AMM stocks, and some seriously ill tempered shockers. 

PH

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## drumgerry

Not much AMM to be seen at Pluscarden these days PH unfortunately.

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## Jon

If you select your breeder queens for gentleness, and work with others keeping the same race of bee seriously aggressive colonies should be unusual.
The worst aggression is often from unmanaged stocks whose daughter queens mate at random with whatever drones are in the area.
The Galtee stock can be worked bare handed. Everyone in that area keeps AMM.
A lot of dark bees are not actually AMM but are AMM-Carnica hybrids or just dark mongrels. Ruttner found that the AMM Carnica hybrid was the most aggressive.

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## snimmo243

Hi Gavin, 
The last time I checked (last september) the old lady was still going strong, last year she kept pace if not outperformed her one year old daughter in the laying stakes! Assuming the artificial swarm is successful and the new queen is laying ok when would I unite her back into the parent colony? also having only ever created three artificial swarms into full hives how would I go about splitting off the additional nuc?

Steven

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## gavin

> Hi Gavin, 
> The last time I checked (last september) the old lady was still going strong, last year she kept pace if not outperformed her one year old daughter in the laying stakes! Assuming the artificial swarm is successful and the new queen is laying ok when would I unite her back into the parent colony? also having only ever created three artificial swarms into full hives how would I go about splitting off the additional nuc?
> 
> Steven


You can unite whenever it suits.  The friend who got me into beekeeping had a routine of splitting when queen cells were seen (in May), running two colonies through the summer and taking both to the heather, then uniting when they were brought back. 

The advantage of splitting off a nuc is that you have a second chance of raising a new queen, useful insurance in the kinds of summers we've had recently here.  Just fill a 5-frame nuc box with one frame with one nice, unshaken queen cell left on (and its bees of course), some sealed brood, some open brood, some stores, and shake in some extra young bees (the ones that stay on after a light shake).  Plug the entrance with grass for 2-3 days or take it away to a new site (you're trying to stop too many bees flying back to the old site).  If you end up with two new queens you have the option (after assessing them for a month or so) of requeening the old one with the nuc, simultaneously boosting it for the late season (and maybe a heather or Himalayan balsam crop).

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## snimmo243

> You can unite whenever it suits.  The friend who got me into beekeeping had a routine of splitting when queen cells were seen (in May), running two colonies through the summer and taking both to the heather, then uniting when they were brought back. 
> 
> The advantage of splitting off a nuc is that you have a second chance of raising a new queen, useful insurance in the kinds of summers we've had recently here.  Just fill a 5-frame nuc box with one frame with one nice, unshaken queen cell left on (and its bees of course), some sealed brood, some open brood, some stores, and shake in some extra young bees (the ones that stay on after a light shake).  Plug the entrance with grass for 2-3 days or take it away to a new site (you're trying to stop too many bees flying back to the old site).  If you end up with two new queens you have the option (after assessing them for a month or so) of requeening the old one with the nuc, simultaneously boosting it for the late season (and maybe a heather or Himalayan balsam crop).


So I would take the nuc off at the same time as the artificial swarm? in essence taking 2 artificial swarms off the parent colony at the same time? last year I didn't wait for queen cells to appear before taking artificial swarms but took them when the bees were on 8/9 frames (on 3rd June)

Steven

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## gavin

In general, yes, that could be a way forward and is something I've done many times.

Most beekeepers would recommend waiting until the bees start cells rather than forcing emergency cells as you did.  A June colony with 8-9 frames isn't really in a state for swarming - and they might not have the nutrition to raise really high quality queens and if it was doing that a simple artificial swarm would be best.  I would only split off a nuc if the parent colony was quite a bit stronger.

A nuc with three frames *can* build up over summer, but if you are operating in one apiary then you risk losing flying bees back to the parent colony and the nuc will be very slow to build up.  Try to keep them bigger and a colony on 8-9 frames doesn;t sound big enough to stand splitting and taking a small nuc.

This spring I'm hoping that 3-4 of my stronger ones will be near filling their boxes in April at which point I may give them a second brood box which they will probably fill while the (neonic-treated) oilseed rape flowers.  I may use those bees (up to 24 frames given that I can squeeze 12 Hoffman frames in my boxes) in different ways - but splitting will be part of that, using natural queen cells or queen cells 'gently' encouraged via a Demaree, or grafted queen cells.

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## Poly Hive

I work in one apiary and make up several nucs in a season, often as many as 25. I deal with this location issue by the very old fashioned and simple method of stuffing the entrance with grass. When it wilts enough they can get out and if they have not achieved this by my next visit, usually every other day in summer for various reasons, then I let them out. KISS

 It is not an issue. 

PH

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