# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Absconding bees from Apidea

## beejazz

I set out an Apidea on Saturday, opened it, on Sunday there was a lot of activity and nasanov fanning, so I thought maybe a practice flight?  However on checking in the evening there were only a couple of bees left, so thought they had gone.  But today I found a little swarm in a nearby bush, so have put it back in the Apidea.  I have left the mating hive underneath the bush instead of moving it back to the original site, is that the best thing to do?

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## Jon

This happens quite often, usually when the virgin is taking a mating flight.
If you hold the apidea up to the cluster for a couple of minutes they will all go back in.
The other possibility is that you did not have it properly shaded.
Apideas invariably abscond if the sun hits them in the afternoon.

Best to put it back in the original place. The queen will get lost should she have another flight if she has already orientated to the other site.

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## beejazz

Yes, I did do that, held the apidea up to the remaining bees on the branch, and then scooped the rest up with my fingers.  I think maybe I filled the apidea with too many bees, they had started drawing wax, and some bees were collecting pollen, but on Sunday it was quite warm in the afternoon, and the original site is in the open, perhaps it would be better where they are now?  Don't bees re-set their orientation thingy when swarming?  They were at the old site, 15' away for 24hrs.

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## Jon

> Don't bees re-set their orientation thingy when swarming?


Yes, but that is not swarming, it is either mating flight gone wrong or absconding.
You have to get exactly the right amount of bees in an apidea and it must be in the shade during the hottest part of the day.
Direct sun early or late is fine.
You should get away with the move as not too many will have orientated in the first 24 hours.

I am assuming there is a virgin queen in the apidea. How old is it?

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## derekm

May i suggest insulation  and lots of it. A small hive needs  a dramatically increased amount of insulation from both heat gain and heat loss.  This because of the ratio of surface to volume. And a swarm, according to the research seeks 40L regardless of the size of the swarm.

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## Jon

Hi Derek
But Apideas are mating nucs for a cupful of bees and a queen. About 500 bees. The insulation is not the problem here - rather the positioning.
It is not realistic to put massive insulation on apideas as they are often used in large numbers and are designed to be light and easy to transport.

They are well insulated relatively speaking but a few hundred bees will always have difficulty with thermoregulation thus the necessity to place the apidea in the shade.

We had over 100 at our mating apiary last summer, most of them in the shade of a big lime tree.

apideas-minnowburn.jpg

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## beejazz

> Yes, but that is not swarming, it is either mating flight gone wrong or absconding.
> You have to get exactly the right amount of bees in an apidea and it must be in the shade during the hottest part of the day.
> Direct sun early or late is fine.
> You should get away with the move as not too many will have orientated in the first 24 hours.
> 
> I am assuming there is a virgin queen in the apidea. How old is it?


She emerged Friday,  so too early for a mating flight?  Just a practice flight gone wrong, or the bees absconding because too hot?  Luckily the weather forecast is cooler and overcast so hopefully they won't take off again.

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## Jon

Absconding then.
Orientation flights start about day 4 or 5 and the earliest mating flight will be about day 8 from emergence, usually a bit later.
Did you check your cell to see if the queen emerged properly?

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## Dark Bee

> She emerged Friday,  so too early for a mating flight?  Just a practice flight gone wrong, or the bees absconding because too hot?  Luckily the weather forecast is cooler and overcast so hopefully they won't take off again.


Apideas positioned without shelter from the sun give endless trouble, usually by the bees skeddaling. On a few occasions in the past a tiny colony has come my way - someone using fly spray on a swarm or on a colony in a roof space and only a few survivors left! If these were put in a nucleus box or hive they invariably absconded when the sun came out, but full sized colonies in the same location remained put.

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## beejazz

> Absconding then.
> Orientation flights start about day 4 or 5 and the earliest mating flight will be about day 8 from emergence, usually a bit later.
> Did you check your cell to see if the queen emerged properly?


Yes, I checked the cell and took it out the day after I heard the VQ piping.  It is empty with a little hinge.  I'm feeding fondant/neopoll, I'm a bit hesitant about feeding syrup in case bees drown in the feeder.  Also spraying the plastic mesh at the front with water.

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## Jon

You only have to spray with water when the apidea is closed up as they don't have a water source.

Fondant, syrup or even just sugar poured in and wetted a bit are all fine in the feeder.
The queen can't get into the feeder due to the excluder slot so don't worry about drowning.

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## beejazz

> You only have to spray with water when the apidea is closed up as they don't have a water source.
> 
> Fondant, syrup or even just sugar poured in and wetted a bit are all fine in the feeder.
> The queen can't get into the feeder due to the excluder slot so don't worry about drowning.


Oops, I don't think I put that in, a little plastic grill?  Is it essential to use it?

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## Dark Bee

> Oops, I don't think I put that in, a little plastic grill?  Is it essential to use it?


If you knead icing sugar with a little honey and make a very stiff "dough" and if possible give it a day or two or more  to mature. Then place it in a preferably lined, feeding compartment of an Apidea, there will be no spillage when the apidea is turned upside down to load and no deaths by drowning. It is not of course the only way of doing business and as always - whatever works for you...

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## Jon

> Oops, I don't think I put that in, a little plastic grill?  Is it essential to use it?


Yes, because they will build comb in the feeder and the queen will lay in it.
If you use liquid feed the queen could drown in it.
Apideas are very well designed and every part has its function.

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## beejazz

Ok, I'll find the exc. and put it on, making sure the VQ is not in the feeder!   DB, I have some honey left over from last year, and icing sugar, I'll make some up for my next attempt at Q rearing.  Thanks guys for your helpful advice, much appreciated.

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## Dark Bee

> Ok, I'll find the exc. and put it on, making sure the VQ is not in the feeder!   DB, I have some honey left over from last year, and icing sugar, I'll make some up for my next attempt at Q rearing.  Thanks guys for your helpful advice, much appreciated.


Thank you for your vote of confidence - you have done wonders for my self esteem. If I may trespass even further on your tolerance, can I suggest that you warm the honey slightly before kneading and use only the smallest amount possible, otherwise it runs.

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## beejazz

> Thank you for your vote of confidence - you have done wonders for my self esteem. If I may trespass even further on your tolerance, can I suggest that you warm the honey slightly before kneading and use only the smallest amount possible, otherwise it runs.


Thanks, will do :Smile:

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## beejazz

> Yes, because they will build comb in the feeder and the queen will lay in it.
> If you use liquid feed the queen could drown in it.
> Apideas are very well designed and every part has its function.


Well they've gone and done it, built comb in the feeder.  Question is, do I remove it or leave them to it, since I'm not feeding them liquid food.  I'm not that confident of finding the VQ let alone picking her out of the feeder compartment.  The bees seem a bit tetchy, I'm inclined to leave them to it unless there is a particular reason to remove it asap?  Please advise!

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## Dark Bee

I would remove the wild comb and install Qx, otherwise how are you going to feed them. It is a virgin queen so no eggs or maggots will be lost.

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## Jon

Check that the queen is on one of the 3 frames. If you find her there, just scrape out the comb from the feeder and put the excluder slot in its place to keep her on the right side.
If you can't find the queen, leave it a while and try again later. Don't scrape out the comb if there is a possibility the queen is in there. As DB says, she wont be laying yet but you don't want to accidentally remove her with the hive tool.

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## masterbk

Ron Brown of Devon (sadly no longer with us) came up with a solution to the problem of feeding Apideas. He filled cutcomb containers with fondant with a access hole in the lid and placed this "feed cassette" in the feeder compartment (it just fits). Because the container occupies  most of the space in the compartment the bees are inhibited  from building comb in it. Restocking the Apidea with feed is really swift  / straight forward consisting of simply removing the empty cutcomb container and replacing it with a full one

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## beejazz

That's a neat idea, master bk, thanks.

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## Jon

> He filled cutcomb containers with fondant with a access hole in the lid and placed this "feed cassette" in the feeder compartment (it just fits).


We have a guy in our group does this and he keeps letting his apideas starve.
I remember phoning him one day last summer to say that all his feeders were empty and he waited 4 days before refilling and by that time a load of them had starved.
The container reduces the capacity of the feeder by at least 30-40% so if you do this you have to check feed levels more often especially in poor weather.
In principle it is a neat and tidy solution but you do have to keep a closer eye on the Apideas in poor weather, especially if they have started to feed brood.
Running Apideas is very much a hands on way of rearing queens and you have to read the situation frequently.
lack of checking can lead to starvation.
Too much liquid feed and they can clog up the cells in the 3 frames leaving the queen nowhere to lay.

I keep a couple of kilos of ordinary white sugar near the apideas.
You can refill the feed compartment without even removing the inner cover.
You put your finger over the inner cover above the feeder excluder slot to hold it in place and bend the cover up at the back so you can pour in the sugar.
Do this slowly so that bees in the feeder can climb up the sugar as the level is rising.
Wet the surface with a garden sprayer but don't liquify the sugar by over doing the spray.
You can easily check and fill about 30-40 Apideas in an hour like this.

Comb in the feeder is not a big problem as long as the queen cannot get in to hide, or worse still, start to lay.
The comb is easily removed as long as you know where the queen is.
I often just leave it as they use it as a ladder and you can still refill the feeder with either sugar or syrup.

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## prakel

Do I sense that 'Jon's Apidea Management' wil soon be rolling off the press? If not, it should be.

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## Dark Bee

> Ron Brown of Devon (sadly no longer with us) came up with a solution to the problem of feeding Apideas. He filled cutcomb containers with fondant with a access hole in the lid and placed this "feed cassette" in the feeder compartment (it just fits). Because the container occupies  most of the space in the compartment the bees are inhibited  from building comb in it. Restocking the Apidea with feed is really swift  / straight forward consisting of simply removing the empty cutcomb container and replacing it with a full one


The Galtee Bee Breeders have been using an 8 oz cut comb container with the end removed, for many years. Where the idea originated I don't now recall, quite possibly it evolved as a feeding method simultaneously in a number of areas. It is also possible to "pre-shape" some q. candy wrapped in polythene and use that - be advised I have patents pending on that technique. Lining the feed compartment is helpful, but using solid feed is essential, otherwise turning the box upside down would be impossible. For those not familiar with Apideas, they are filled with a mug of bees through an opening in the underside.

EDIT; I have just seen that Jon has posted a comprehensive reply while I was typing this - I was unaware he was doing so.

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## Jon

> but using solid feed is essential, otherwise turning the box upside down would be impossible. For those not familiar with Apideas, they are filled with a mug of bees through an opening in the underside.


DB
I always fill my apideas with bees first (through the floor) and then put the feed in the feed compartment later by bending up the inner cover.
I usually fill 8 -10 at a time and I set them up in a row upside down with the floors slid open.
Each one gets a scoop of wet bees and the floor is closed and the apidea set the right way up.
When they are all filled I put in the feed.

This stack here was filled with bees in an afternoon and each got its feeder half filled with syrup afterwards.

apideas piled high.jpg

The queen cells went in 24 hours later.
That stuff you read about filling with bees and leaving in the dark for 3 days is completely unnecessary.
You can feed whatever way you want after putting in the bees as there is room to get fondant or the cut comb container into the feeder by bending up the inner cover at the back.
I think it was one of the Galtee people demonstrated this when we were at a demo day at Michaél's in 2010 as part of the Bibba conference in Cahir.

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## beejazz

> Do I sense that 'Jon's Apidea Management' wil soon be rolling off the press? If not, it should be.


Must admit when I first posted I was hoping Jon would reply, not to say everybody else's contribution is not welcome!

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## gavin

> Must admit when I first posted I was hoping Jon would reply, not to say everybody else's contribution is not welcome!


He is the bees knees.  You shouldn't go saying things like that though - can't have him getting too sure of himself!

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## Jon

How much did your tats cost Gav?

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## gavin

These knees are much too handsome to be mine.  The bees are almost good enough to do morphometry on if anyone is up for it.

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## Jon

Too much artistic license with the venation.
Don't look like bee wings.
So what have you got on your knees? John Daly on one and a potato on the other?

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## masterbk

The Galtee Bee Breeders have been using an 8 oz cut comb container with the end removed, for many years
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Brown started using the cutcomb containers in his Apideas in 1995 and mentioned this in his booklet "managing mininucs" published in 1998.

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## The Drone Ranger

> These knees are much too handsome to be mine.  The bees are almost good enough to do morphometry on if anyone is up for it.


they must be carnies AMM would only need one knee and they would just have wings on one side

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## Beefever

*That stuff you read about filling with bees and leaving in the dark for 3 days is completely unnecessary.*
How do you do it then Jon?  Do you not confine them at all?  Are the bees from a different apiary?  Do you add a queen cell or a virgin when making up your Apideas?

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## Jon

> they must be carnies AMM would only need one knee and they would just have wings on one side


The Germans cut the wings off their Carnica.
They use a similar spreadsheet which accepts higher CI values.

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## Jon

> *That stuff you read about filling with bees and leaving in the dark for 3 days is completely unnecessary.*
> How do you do it then Jon?  Do you not confine them at all?  Are the bees from a different apiary?  Do you add a queen cell or a virgin when making up your Apideas?


I usually fill the apideas with young bees, stack them up in the shade and add a ripe queen cell 12-24 hours later.
And if you fill them with bees from the top box of a cell raiser you can put the cells in right away.
The key thing is to keep the apideas closed until the virgin has emerged from the cell.
I remove the cells and check that the queen is definitely out before setting out the apideas and opening them.

hatched queen cells.jpg queen cells after queen emerged.jpg

If you open them before the virgin has emerged a lot of the bees will abscond.
I usually keep the apideas in the same apiary although moving a few miles away solves the problem of bees drifting back.
If the bees are young and the virgin is out you don't get too many drifting back to the hive they were taken from.

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## The Drone Ranger

they do I know  :Smile: 

something I wonder about 
If bees revert to mainly black when left to their own devices
and the Queen mates with maybe 15 or 20 drones in a good year
could grafting be counter productive except in certain areas
I mean if the bees choose the larva prior to swarming or even in swarm board conditions
Doesn't it make sense for them to choose one which is 75% related to the queen
whereas by grafting you make the choice and could be raising a commoner to the nobility
bet some smarty pants has studied this at some point

You have encouraged me to dust off the (two) apideas and the other horrible white ones and have another go
Thank you Jon

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## Jon

I'm not sure bees do chose the larvae although some have speculated that they do.

Any way, none of the larvae are 75% related to the queen.
You must be thinking about the 'super sisters' business.

Two workers which have the same drone father should share 75% of their genetic material. Two workers which have different drone fathers should share 50%.

The speculation is that a worker would favour the selection of an larva for turning into a queen which has the same father as herself.

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## Beefever

Thanks Jon.  I've always used workers from the supers, in the past, a la Ron Brown, so if I use very young workers from the brood nest then I might (and I mean might) get less absconding.  All good stuff, eh?

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## Jon

The key thing is waiting until the virgin has emerged before opening the apidea.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I'm not sure bees do chose the larvae although some have speculated that they do.
> 
> Any way, none of the larvae are 75% related to the queen.
> You must be thinking about the 'super sisters' business.
> 
> Two workers which have the same drone father should share 75% of their genetic material. Two workers which have different drone fathers should share 50%.
> 
> The speculation is that a worker would favour the selection of an larva for turning into a queen which has the same father as herself.


Your right sisters 75% related I'm an idiot  :Smile:

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## mbc

> I'm not sure bees do chose the larvae although some have speculated that they do.
> .


If you allow a frame of eggs to hatch in a queenless cell starter which only has brood over 9 days old, its possible to graft the juiciest larvae from the frame that the bees have chosen to copiously feed in preparation to turning them into emergency queens.  Obviouslt you then take away the frame of newly hatched larvae letting the cell starter concentrate on the grafts.
Its the best way I've found to get the biggest cells, those first hours are the most important.

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## beejazz

Momentous news!  Well I think so.  There are eggs and small larvae in the Apidea!  Didn't see her, I was just having a quick check, but she must have mated.   I think I put too many bees in, all three frames are drawn out perfectly, like little brood frames, with an arch of capped stores, but I never got around to removing the comb in the feeder, two fat combs at right angles to the other frames.  The Apidea is chock a block with bees and comb.  I won't have to feed again, shall I just leave it there now?  My thoughts were to wait until the brood is capped, then mark her, and give her to a colony.  I have another two cells coming along, is it possible to use the same bees?  And if so should I protect the Q cell?

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## Jon

Well done. Can't beat the apideas for queen rearing.




> is it possible to use the same bees? And if so should I protect the Q cell?


Yes, but be careful it does not get too crowded when the brood hatches or it will abscond.
You could take out a frame of brood, replacing it with another of comb or starter strip and start a second apidea with it after adding some bees.
I have never used cell protectors, nor have I ever had cells torn down.

If you have normal capped worker brood, you can remove the queen and use her to requeen a colony or make up a nuc.

Make sure you have the excluder slot on the apidea to keep the queen in. It is very disappointing to lose a mated queen and it happens all the time if you don't use the excluder.

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## beejazz

Should I leave the Apidea queen-less for any length of time before putting in the new capped cell?  I will have a couple to go in mating hives probably Friday.  
The excluder slot pins over the front of entrance?  
Interesting about absconding Apideas;  a very small swarm turned up on the front of one of my hives last August, not out of any of my hives, or the other beekeepers on the allotments, so we figured it had absconded because of over-crowding and/or thymol treatment from an unknown queen raiser in the vicinity.  Strangely she was marked white.

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## Jon

If you leave it queenless for a few hours that should be sufficient.
The red excluder with the 3 slots goes over the entrance and is held in place with a drawing pin.
Some people mark the queens when they are in the apideas so that might explain the small cluster you got.

I make my own excluder by cutting up a plastic excluder sheet like this as it allows far easier entrance for the bees.
About 20 slots rather than 3

drones-behind-apidea-excluder.jpg apidea-mesh4.jpg

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## beejazz

Thanks!  Good idea, I have some unused plastic exc. knocking about.  Is that an Apidea super on top?

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## Jon

> Thanks!  Good idea, I have some unused plastic exc. knocking about.  Is that an Apidea super on top?


Yep, I have 8 or 9 of them.
You can use them to double up for overwintering, or as a feeder, or use several to build up an apidea to the point where you can shake the contents on to a couple of frames of brood to make up a nuc.

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## drumgerry

Jon - can you remind me what you do to introduce a virgin Q to an apidea at the same time as filling it with bees?  I know you have a method but I can't find it!

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## Jon

Turn the apidea upside down and open the floor.
make sure the door is closed.
Get a scoop of wet bees ready.
Spray the virgin through her cage and tip her wet into the apidea.
This is to stop her flying off.
Immediately tip the scoop of wet bees on top of her.
By the time the bees have groomed and dried themselves, she is one of the family.
Close up the floor and open the next day.
This seems to work every time whereas 'running them in' which you read all over the place in bee books is less than 50% successful in my experience.
They accept her at first then she disappears a couple of days later.
If you use bees from a cell raiser your odds get even better as they will be expecting to encounter a virgin queen.

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## drumgerry

Brilliant!  The Apidea guru strikes again!  Thanks Jon

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## gavin

Remove the attendants first? Assuming that the virgin in the cage comes with them of course. Just a couple.

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## Jon

Gav. the thing about removing attendants, I never worry about that. I always introduce mated queens with attendants in the cage.
The problem is that if you suggest to people that they should remove attendants, some of them will let the queen out by mistake and others will damage the queen trying to open and close the cage.
Not Gerry I imagine but I am just thinking of the rank and file beekeepers as we had some people let queens out of the cage by mistake last year.
I honestly don't think it makes any difference leaving them in and I reckon my success rate introducing queens is about 11/12.
There is no 100% guaranteed method.
Those Galtee queens I got on Monday all had 6 attendants in the cage.
I introduced the cages on Monday with the tab closed and opened them on Tuesday.
The attendants were still alive on the Tuesday and a couple of the queens were out of cages today.

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## Bridget

Having not been able to inspect for 9 days I came back to find three sealed queen cells.  Having just bought an apidea and been listing to Mr Abrahams on Colonsay thought goody, I'll give it a go.  However the weather being poor on Colonsay and his carefully preserved swarm cell, with which to give us a demo, having been torn down, he was not able to actually demonstrate.  So my questions are
1.  Did I take the qc too soon to the apidea? It must have been sealed only a couple of days max as there were only small empty cups 9 days earlier. 
2.  the apidea is in a dark cool place (shed)  does it stay there, closed up, until the vc emerges?  That will be next weekend I reckon.  Seems a long time. Should I move it to a shady place in the garden?
3. feeding - you have already answered my "how to" query but not the "how much" .  Fed a lump of fondant last night but half gone.  Think I will try the poring sugar method but should I fill the feeder right up or half full?  
4. lot of noise from the apidea 20 hours on.  The bees added were from the same brood box.  will this continue till they are released?
5.  I wrapped the qc in foil as Andrew did and then taped the end of the foil through the hole in the plastic cover.  Not sure this was quite right as it now really hard to see how the qc is getting on.  Could someone post a photo or even better little video of how this is done.  I was worried about damaging the qc as not sure how fragile/robust. They are.
Any thoughts gratefully received. 



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## Jon

In an ideal world the queen cell goes in just before emergence date.
There is a string possibility the the developing queen will get chilled and fail to emerge or will emerge with shrivelled wings due to chilling and as you noted the bees will be closed in for a week which is too long.
You might get away with it but really, the cells need to go in much later.

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## drumgerry

Just my opinion Bridget but (prompted by the availability of sealed queen cells) I think you now have a scenario where you're going to have to let the bees out in a day or two and chance it that things go well.  Remember to lightly mist them with water twice a day through the vent in the front all the days they're shut in.

Otherwise,I would be leaving well alone till the queen has hatched - not sure why you'll need to see how things are going with the queen cell.  The only thing you need to do now is keep their feed topped up if it's running out (as they're going to have to draw those combs out for you) and have a quick shufty to see if the cell has hatched when the time comes.

Jon will probably kill me for saying that I do this but anyway.....If hatch date comes and goes I usually wait 24 hours and then open the cell myself.  Probably 80%+ of the times I do this a healthy virgin queen crawls out and I release her down through the wee hole into the apidea.  Occasionally the queen has not developed properly and and I prefer to know this rather than leaving completely alone and assuming she's hatched.

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## The Drone Ranger

My latest foul up 
I just checked and the hive I moved 5 queen cells to for finishing is queenless so that's fine
Trouble is I put the cells in the one next to it where there is a big fat laying queen 
Needless to say the bees tore down my lovely cells
Gnashh!!

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## Bridget

> In an ideal world the queen cell goes in just before emergence


What I was concerned about was that if the qc was sealed I was likely to have a swarm on my hands.  If I had waited another week and they had swarmed there would be no need to put the qc in the apidea.  Is there a "smiley face for "sigh"?


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## Jon

Sorry, I thought from your post they had already swarmed!

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## Bridget

> Just my opinion Bridget but (prompted by the availability of sealed queen cells) I think you now have a scenario where you're going to have to let the bees out in a day or two and chance it that things go well.  Remember to lightly mist them with water twice a day through the vent in the front all the days they're shut in.
> 
> Otherwise,I would be leaving well alone till the queen has hatched - not sure why you'll need to see how things are going with the queen cell.  The only thing you need to do now is keep their feed topped up if it's running out (as they're going to have to draw those combs out for you) and have a quick shufty to see if the cell has hatched when the time comes.
> 
> Jon will probably kill me for saying that I do this but anyway.....If hatch date comes and goes I usually wait 24 hours and then open the cell myself.  Probably 80%+ of the times I do this a healthy virgin queen crawls out and I release her down through the wee hole into the apidea.  Occasionally the queen has not developed properly and and I prefer to know this rather than leaving completely alone and assuming she's hatched.


Gerry - how things have changed since I emailed you!,, anyway if it doesn't work out and I should know by the 11th I hope I still have a fall back.  At least we have had a go and it will be easier next time.  I am misting and will top up feed tomorrow and release on Monday and see how it goes.  Should they still be in a shady spot?  
Meanwhile we have to still sort that colony.  Will check whether they have started anymore qc's - unfortunately on my own as Fraser is on anti histamine and anti biotics.  Has two arms the size of Henry Coopers.  Was influenced on our course where he and I we're the only people wearing gloves and much talk along the lines of "if your bees are cross and sting you you'd better give up beekeeping". And "only way to clip and mark a queen is with your bare hands" (is there a smiley face for macho) so thought he'd better give it a try.  Duh!  No sympathy here.  In fact much parroting of his words to me " it'll be worse before it gets better"



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## Bridget

> Sorry, I thought from your post they had already swarmed!


I wasn't sighing at you Jon - just that there is so much I don't understand and there is so much to learn.  It's all the different permutations that get me.  


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## drumgerry

Bridget - if you haven't already you need to artificially swarm that colony - sharpish.

Apidea - definitely in a shady spot once opened.

And, whilst I can see the point of the no gloves thing if your bees are the product of a long and successful programme of selection for temperament,  I think it's a load of claptrap in any other circumstances.  And dangerous, irresponsible claptrap at that.  Sounds like you and Fraser were very sensible (and you remained so when you got back!).  And gloveless queen marking and clipping can lead to scent transfer and the queen being balled on being returned to the comb.

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## Jon

Bridget. Did you see the queen in that last inspection? If not they could have already swarmed.

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## Jimbo

Bridget,
You need to take into acount that Andrew has be breeding and selecting his bees for gentleness for nearly forty years in a closed system. It certainly dispelled the myth that native dark bees are agressive when you see him handling his bees. Until you can get your bees that gentle then I would wear thin gloves and mark and clip using a cage.
Andrew also picks his queens by the wing to hold and mark which I have never seen demonstrated before and does the clipping and marking in seconds.
I don't know if you remember but I asked Andrew if he put his apideas in the shade and he just shrugged his shoulders and said in his experience it did not make any difference and he got very little adsconding. He had apideas siting on stands and on one site had them siting on on a stone wall all of which were fully exposed. It might be that Colonsay gets very little hot sunshine!

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... It might be that Colonsay gets very little hot sunshine!


Oh no - it gets sunshine, and lots of it.  On the intermediate course I went to last year we were all dashing for the trees to get away from the sun; this year, if we did dash for trees, it would have been to get away from wind or rain.

Well done Bridget for trying out an apidea.

Kitta

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## Bridget

> Bridget. Did you see the queen in that last inspection? If not they could have already swarmed.


No they hadn't swarmed as this was a slow starter colony this year and was busier than last inspection. House and garden full of grandchildren and family this w/e so it will just have to wait till tomorrow.

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## madasafish

> Bridget,
> You need to take into acount that Andrew has be breeding and selecting his bees for gentleness for nearly forty years in a closed system. It certainly dispelled the myth that native dark bees are agressive when you see him handling his bees. Until you can get your bees that gentle then I would wear thin gloves and mark and clip using a cage.
> Andrew also picks his queens by the wing to hold and mark which I have never seen demonstrated before and does the clipping and marking in seconds.
> I don't know if you remember but I asked Andrew if he put his apideas in the shade and he just shrugged his shoulders and said in his experience it did not make any difference and he got very little adsconding. He had apideas siting on stands and on one site had them siting on on a stone wall all of which were fully exposed. It might be that Colonsay gets very little hot sunshine!


An old beekeeper I know marks queens like that.

I've just marked one from a warre like that this pm...

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## gavin

Me too (and I'm getting old).

Not the Warre of course, the wing holding.

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## Bridget

Apidea sitting on its pole, bees flying in and out, turfing out a dead bee too and the hysterical whirring sound from whithin has become the sound of a nicely oiled wheel.  Fingers crossed. But how will I tell if the queen has emerged?  The reason I can't see is because  the cell is wrapped in foil.  now before Jon splutters on his Guinness - A Andrews Esq told me to do it that way.  Is it Ok to barge into their snug little home and poke about?


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## drumgerry

Bridget - you haven't covered the end of the queen cell in foil surely?! :Big Grin:   So it's just a question of waiting till the due date or better still the next day after to see if she's hatched.  I'm assuming the queen cell is poking down through the hole in the perspex cover so you can lift the cell back up through the same hole.

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## Bridget

> Bridget - you haven't covered the end of the queen cell in foil surely?!  So it's just a question of waiting till the due date or better still the next day after to see if she's hatched.  I'm assuming the queen cell is poking down through the hole in the perspex cover so you can lift the cell back up through the same hole.


No I didn't cover the end.  Yes it is poking it down.  Trouble is due dates are a bit of a mystery.  I reckon possibly Saturday so perhaps if I check Sunday.  Thanks Gerry - what's your favourite cake?


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## Jon

> before Jon splutters on his Guinness..


Actually have a glass of cider beside me so lets hope I don't turn into one of those Somerset wurzels.
I can honestly say that I have never had a queen cell torn down in an apidea out of hundreds I have introduced and I would only need tinfoil if I were planning a visit to Orkney.

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## drumgerry

I didn't think so.  

The books say 16 days from laying to hatching for a queen but in my experience that can be 15.  I'd be interested to hear what anyone else's experience of that is.  The timetable is easy to follow if you grafted less than 24 hour old larvae.  Less easy to follow if you're making use of a capped queen cell when you don't know what day it was capped.  There's no harm leaving it a couple of days before checking in my opinion but some of the more experienced guys might have a thought on that.  Bear in mind I'm only a few years into my queen rearing journey (cue Simon Cowell and some uplifting music!).

Cakewise we're easy!  From Victoria sponge to carrot  and everything else in between! (*explanation* B has kindly offered to bake for our Spey Beeks meeting this Saturday!)

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## Jon

Some do emerge at 15 days so you need to get the rollers on at 13 which is day 9 from grafting day.
The main risk with putting a cell early into an apidea is chilling, which seems to lead to a problem with shrivelled wings which looks very like bees you see with varroa damage.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Actually have a glass of cider beside me so lets hope I don't turn into one of those Somerset wurzels.
> I can honestly say that I have never had a queen cell torn down in an apidea out of hundreds I have introduced and I would only need tinfoil if I were planning a visit to Orkney.


You might need a tin hat as well  :Smile:

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## Jon

A tinfoil hat is all the protection a man needs when the air is full of negative ionising forcefields.

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## The Drone Ranger

> A tinfoil hat is all the protection a man needs when the air is full of negative ionising forcefields.


Lol!
Neonics protest march, might be some bricks in the air

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## Jimbo

Ah Bridget, Andrew only put the tinfoil around the queen cell if he was re-using the apidea after taking out his original hatched queen and puting in another queen cell straight away, just in case they did not accept the new cell and tore it down.

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## Jon

Not sure you even need to do that Jimbo. I often remove a queen and put in a cell a couple of hours later.

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## fatshark

I don't think you need to do that either ... however an advantage of doing so is that the bees don't weld the entire cell to both flanking frames.  This can make checking to see the queen has emerged troublesome.  I'm doing a few on Friday so might do a little test ...

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## Bridget

> Ah Bridget, Andrew only put the tinfoil around the queen cell if he was re-using the apidea after taking out his original hatched queen and puting in another queen cell straight away, just in case they did not accept the new cell and tore it down.


Oh well, that little talk was early on in the weekend and to be fair he was expecting to demo at the apiary.  However with Jons concern about chilling maybe I did a good thing to partially encase in foil.

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## Jimbo

Bridget was that before the Colonsay ale or after? Andrew was also using supercedure cells where possible. I'm sure your queen cell will hatch OK as they are pretty robust.

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## Bridget

> Bridget was that before the Colonsay ale or after? Andrew was also using supercedure cells where possible. I'm sure your queen cell will hatch OK as they are pretty robust.


Thanks Jimbo you will no doubt see it here, whether good or bad news.  One other question.  Saw a pic of the interior of an apidea and saw that the foundation only came a third of the way down the plastic frame.  I didnt know this and my foundation comes to the bottom of the plastic frame.  Is this bad news?  Should I leave it now or give it a chop.  Why is it so left so short.


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## Jimbo

Yes you usually put in about a third of the way down and let the bees draw it out. I tend to put it about half way as I have had some foundation fall out in the past. Andrew only sealed in his foundation at the top where as I tend to run wax down both sides to give it a bit more strength. I don't think having it all the way down will be a problem as they will still draw it out if they have food in the box. I don't know the reason why it is left short other than it would be more economical.

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## The Drone Ranger

I think they make wax more quickly with just a starter strip 
Odd really
Following a bit of advice from another thread I used 60lb fishing line and a starter strip in the upper broodbox
They drew it out fast, unfortunately they used mainly drone cells lol!
That's the time of year though, I expect a swarm would only draw worker cells
Next time I'll just do supers
A

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## Jon

Just to be awkward again, I never bother with starter strip. I just use a wee bit of brace comb and stick it on by melting it a bit with a cigarette lighter.
A small piece with just a few cells will suffice and they draw the rest of it out perfectly.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Just to be awkward again, I never bother with starter strip. I just use a wee bit of brace comb and stick it on by melting it a bit with a cigarette lighter.
> A small piece with just a few cells will suffice and they draw the rest of it out perfectly.


That's not awkward 
A bit mean maybe  :Smile:

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## Jon

Recycle that unwanted brace comb.
You know it makes sense.
Far easier to attach as well.

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## drumgerry

It's just my second year of apidea use but all I did for this year was break last year's combs off leaving an imprint of comb on the top and side of the frames.  The bees have drawn perfect new combs for me!

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## Jon

I fumigate all the comb over winter and reuse it after trimming back a bit so there is room to fill with a scoop of bees through the floor.

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## Dark Bee

> It's just my second year of apidea use but all I did for this year was break last year's combs off leaving an imprint of comb on the top and side of the frames.  The bees have drawn perfect new combs for me!


There is a line of thought which holds that all comb should be removed at the end of the season and the box thoroughly cleaned/fumigated to inhibit the spread of infection. The following year an 1" strip of wax is sufficient to fix in each frame, use a wax candle that did no make the grade to fasten it in position - that is safer and easier than melting wax in a saucepan. It is very much a question of personal choice - use whatever works. The narrow strip of wax makes loading easy and is cheaper and easier to fix than a full sized piece.

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## Bridget

BTW do you keep misting even when they are outside or is it just for the first few days when they are in a shed or similar?

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## drumgerry

They'll be able to get their own water once opened so no need to mist Bridget

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## The Drone Ranger

I've been reading Henry Alley's book on queen rearing
The little hives and frames he used were like a precursor to the keiler or apidea
They had 5" square combs
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improved-Que...ds=Henry+Alley 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.h...cId=1000423913
Read on my kindle but apparently the download ap lets you read on PC

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## Jon

> There is a line of thought which holds that all comb should be removed at the end of the season and the box thoroughly cleaned/fumigated to inhibit the spread of infection.


You can fumigate the comb with 80% acetic acid without throwing it away 
The apideas themselves, I scrape clean and  spray with Virkon.

The bees work damned hard to draw that comb so seems a shame to waste it.

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## Bridget

> The bees work damned hard to draw that comb so seems a shame to waste it.


I reckon my light bulb moment in bee keeping (so far) was when I realised that the drawn comb was your most valuable asset.

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## The Drone Ranger

mine was never allow laying in the supers otherwise they become a target for wax moth in winter and 10 times harder to store  :Smile:

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## Kate Atchley

> I'm feeding fondant/neopoll, I'm a bit hesitant about feeding syrup in case bees drown in the feeder.  Also spraying the plastic mesh at the front with water.


 I have fed lost of mating hives with fondant but found myself at an out-apiary needing to add syrup to the last of them recently, as I'd run out of fondant. The bees seem to back off up the sloping Apidea feeder side very readily and I have since found no drowning. But yes, I was uneasy about this. In one I couldn't even add the wee queen excluder panel as I didn't have enough with me.

Think I need a bee suit with about 20 pockets + zips on all of them.

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## Adam

> You can fumigate the comb with 80% acetic acid without throwing it away 
> The apideas themselves, I scrape clean and  spray with Virkon.
> 
> The bees work damned hard to draw that comb so seems a shame to waste it.


I keep the nice comb and ditch the rest or cut it back so there's already an old-comb starter strip.
I scrape my mini-nucs as best I can and remove (some of) the propolis with washing soda, then the mini-nucs sit in a bucket of bleach with a brick over them to keep them down. 1 nuc at a time.

And if you pour boiling water over the plastic cover, it goes crinkly and nearly melts!

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## Adam

> I've been reading Henry Alley's book on queen rearing
> The little hives and frames he used were like a precursor to the keiler or apidea
> They had 5" square combs
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improved-Que...ds=Henry+Alley 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.h...cId=1000423913
> Read on my kindle but apparently the download ap lets you read on PC



Free here.
http://archive.org/details/improvedqueenrea00alle

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## The Drone Ranger

> Free here.
> http://archive.org/details/improvedqueenrea00alle


Even better Adam  :Smile:

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## fatshark

Re. post #80 ... I put 8 cells in mini-nucs on Friday, within 45 minutes of removing the previous mated Q. No foil 'collar' to protect them. All are out today just fine.

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## Jon

fatshark.
My experience is exactly the same and I have done that hundreds of times.
The tinfoil protection stuff is one of the many beekeeping urban myths in my opinion.

Our group got another 30 virgins emerged in apideas between Friday and Sunday.

40 more cells with queens due to emerge this Friday 12th.

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## The Drone Ranger

I had my poor dark queen confined in a cupkit cartridge for just over a day 
Lo and behold she has actually laid in the cells cups (they were all brand new ones)
Let her out this morning checked tonight and the eggs are still there (so far)
Don't think she enjoyed the captivity much 
The bees were all black as your hat but a few stripey interlopers have infiltrated the ranks lately
I'm using 3 best hives ie black, gentle, no chalkbrood, plenty bees etc to supply most grafts etc.
Only the hives which had chalkbrood , bad temper, or slow buildup are being requeened
But all the old girls below the snelgrove boards are also candidates (bit ageist I suppose)
I am keeping all the daughters of the good hives above the boards irrespective of type/colour

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## Black Comb

My 2 latest Apideas are not drawing out the foundation but building comb down into the feeder (cut combcontainer)?

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## Jon

I have noticed that when they draw comb in the feeder it often means the apidea is queenless especially if the bee numbers are depleted.
They retreat to the feeder in the absence of a queen as it has the best insulation.

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## Black Comb

Probably. One was an "iffy" cell from a very good breeder hive, the other should be OK.
Time will tell.

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## The Drone Ranger

Today I was putting the cups from the cupkit cassette in holders 
I was surprised how easy it was using the system
Last time I tried was years ago and then I followed the instructions it didn't work
This time I just screwed the box to a new broodframe slotted foundation round it 
Fitted all new cups to the cassette 
Trapped the queen for a day in the cassette
Released her as soon as she had laid up the cups left the front off after release
Waited 3 days till eggs hatched and there was some royal jelly
Took the back off the cassette moved cups to cell raiser
No grafting or messing about required

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## beejazz

I plan to put a capped Q cell into an occupied Apidea, and at the same time take out the mated/laying queen, putting her into the hive the cell came from.  Do i need to protect the cell? Erring on the cautious side she will emerge Saturday, probably Sunday. Will it work if I do it today, Friday?

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## fatshark

bee jazz
Should work fine ... No need to protect the cell. I did 8 like this last weekend - in on Friday in place of the mated queen, no protection, emerged on Saturday night/Sunday morning. All OK. Riskiest bit might be introducing the mated Q from the miniNuc to the hive ...

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## beejazz

Fs, it should go Ok, these bees are pussie cats, which helps?  I'll put her into a cage, don't know how, as I can't pick up queens!  I have a queen pipe thingy, so the plan is to put it over her, wait until she walks up and then present the cage for her to walk into.  I may temporarily put something around the cage to darken it.
Then put the cage suspended by a cocktail stick over the area from where I took the Q cell?
I'm in two minds whether to tape up the candy, and remove it a few days later, gradual introduction?

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## Black Comb

One has absconded. They are in the shade but noticed sun hits them for 1 hour in the aft. Bad location, or lost all on mating flight which is due about now.

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## Black Comb

Did all the cells develop into full queen cells DR?
(Cup kit method)

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## The Drone Ranger

> Did all the cells develop into full queen cells DR?
> (Cup kit method)


The ones laid in the cups taken from the cassette have only been in since yesterday so only time will tell
I would say they have more chance than the ones I graft into cups because they are undisturbed 
Thing is you can get 120 cups laid up 
Grafting that many would take me forever  :Smile:

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## fatshark

> Fs, it should go Ok, these bees are pussie cats, which helps?  I'll put her into a cage, don't know how, as I can't pick up queens!  I have a queen pipe thingy, so the plan is to put it over her, wait until she walks up and then present the cage for her to walk into.


Jon described using one of these crack pipes recently ... she's unlikely to just march in. Gently place it over her with the spout pointing upwards ... if and when she walks up into it lift it off the frame and quickly place your thumb over the entrance. Some walk up the sloping tube promptly ... other play silly buggers. Don't push the bowl of the pipe too hard against the comb and don't trap her legs under the lip.

You can get her from the pipe to a cage by gently blowing her down the tube ... put foam into the bowl entrance first!




> Then put the cage suspended by a cocktail stick over the area from where I took the Q cell?
> I'm in two minds whether to tape up the candy, and remove it a few days later, gradual introduction?


Cage with fondant over brood, which is probably where the QC was. It'll do no harm to seal the cage for a couple of days. They'll feed her through the mesh. Ideally use a cage with an area she can't be reached from so she has somewhere to hide if they're aggressive. I'd use JzBz cages but would cover a part of a Butler cage with foil ...

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## Kate Atchley

> Jon described using one of these crack pipes recently ... she's unlikely to just march in. Gently place it over her with the spout pointing upwards ... if and when she walks up into it lift it off the frame and quickly place your thumb over the entrance. Some walk up the sloping tube promptly ... other play silly buggers.


I spent a mesmerising 2o minutes or so on Thursday evening watching a queen NOT 'just marching in' to the cage. I tried the pipe uncovered, covered, pointing upwards gently and steeply, downwards, horizontal, you name it. An adventurous worker kept going up and in and bringing back fondant for her, trying to entice her in. She would come half way up the pipe and enjoy the food, then back into the bulb to do some series self-grooming! She's certainly a princess. Finally I held the bulb over the cage, realising that she or workers may get out sideways but she walked in, alone, and was easily caged. Left her workers looking short of a job!

I'll try gently blowing next time but how to do that with foam in the bulb? Hold the foam aside to leave space to blow?

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## The Drone Ranger

Suprisingly the foam lets the air through and you have to be careful to start very gently or it acts like a pea shooter

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## beejazz

The queen went up the pipe and into the cage after a couple of minutes, so glad I didn't have to wait 20 minutes as Kate did!  I put the cage between brood, they didn't seem to take much notice of her, hope that is a good sign.  It is a flattish yellow cage, I think they are called puzzle cages, with little plastic pieces that need to be snapped off so the bees can get at the fondant.  It has an area with no holes for the queen to hide in if the bees become aggressive towards her.  This queen is from an AS, both parts of the AS made new queens so put this one in an Apidea when I united.  Waste not want not!  I hate culling queens, I always think I am about to destroy the best ever queen.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Did all the cells develop into full queen cells DR?
> (Cup kit method)


Checked today 7 starts out of 14 in one cell raiser
only 1 from 10 in the other
Haven't used either of those hives a queenright cell raisers till this time
The one I have been using is occupied at the moment

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## drumgerry

As well to use this thread as to start a new one I think!  Also not sure if this is asked and answered on an earlier page.  Anyway......

250ml or 300 ml of bees to fill an Apidea?  Started off using 300ml and things went fine.  Thought I could get away with 250ml last year and suffered from a fair few abscondings.  Might not have been that of course but I wonder if I'm pushing it by reducing the recommended number of bees?

Apidea gurus to the rescue......?!

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## Jon

Too many bees rather than too few would increase the risk of absconding.
But if you don't have a lot of bees in the apidea and the queen takes 3 + weeks to mate there will be very few left and possibly not enough to cover brood when she starts to lay.
The other problem with weak apideas late season is wasps.

The main reason for absconding is (a) overheating, ie Apidea in full sun, (b) mating swarm gone wrong where all the bees leave with the queen on her mating flight and then settle somewhere without returning to the apidea.

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## drumgerry

Hmmm....wondering if that 250ml made any difference then.  Might just stick with it.  It certainly didn't seem too few bees when loading them in.  We'll see how it goes this year.  Thanks Jon (again!).

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