# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Queen raising 2014

## greengumbo

Few drones wandering around the brood frames this weekend / plenty more emerging - but not seen any flying as yet.

I have my abelo double mating hive all painted up and ready to rock as well as 3 homemade efforts and a few nucs I can convert for mating hives.

So.....when are people starting to graft etc ? Plans for the season ahead ? Tips ? 

Thought it was time for a fresh thread  :Smile:

----------


## prakel

Early May's my preferred time, I could start now I suppose but there's no pressure on me to get queens mated extra early to fill gaps or make a little increase -that's what the overwintered mating nucs were for.

----------


## Jon

I have already made up nucs with three of the four queens I overwintered in apideas.
Early May would be good. No point until there are masses of drones.
Last year I had no mated queens until the end of June so hoping for a better start this year.

----------


## fatshark

Too soon … the bees know best. Grafted on the last couple of days with poor 'take'. Given up until May …

----------


## Neils

It's early down here. one hive already artificially swarmed, drones out and about and a few colonies well advanced raising them. The colony I've AS I've removed the drone brood from for both IPM and it's just swarming too early for my liking so better to keep their drones reduced.

----------


## brothermoo

This year I'm going to trial getting queens mated in a four way mating nuc inside one standard box so that my frames are the same for all my boxes. Although I will run my apideas too so I can compare and contrast the success/failure!

___________________________________
brothermoo.wordpress.com

----------


## Jon

Good luck with that one Moo!
I think it is easier to have the units separate.
I was thinking of using my Paynes polyboxes as mating nucs with just a single brood frame in each.
The frame would go against a wall with an insulated dummy on the other side.
The advantage is having your mated queen on the correct size of frame, but a disadvantage would be the bulk of each unit.
I think Gavin mentioned a system he uses which is a split box above a snelgrove board or something like that.

----------


## prakel

> I have my abelo double mating hive all painted up and ready to rock as well as 3 homemade efforts and a few nucs I can convert for mating hives.


Similar here, mini-plus and homemade efforts. We started these ones yesterday, they're smaller than our usual boxes -the result of having been given a load of very small floorboard offcuts from a warehouse renovation.

SAM_3152.jpg

----------


## prakel

> I think it is easier to have the units separate.


I quite like the double units myself but (going back to the OP) have found the mini-plus boxes work better as singles; they always seem a little too tight as doubles once they've been going for a while to my way of thinking.

----------


## mbc

> I was thinking of using my Paynes polyboxes as mating nucs with just a single brood frame in each.


I dont think the mesh floor would be good for returning virgins- too much opportunity for confusion IMHO.
The crazy Finn posted a good idea on the other forum, cutting a poly brood box in two with a band saw and making up the side with insulation board.  C Wynne Jones have poly brood boxes on offer this month, £18.11 + vat, 5 frame poly nucs for ~ £10 each plus a little work to make a lid and floor, and they'd be a much better mating unit than the paynes box with a gaping floor.  I wish I had more time to implement this idea for myself, but its the wrong time of year for me to be starting a new construction project  :Frown:

----------


## gavin

> I was thinking of using my Paynes polyboxes as mating nucs with just a single brood frame in each.
> The frame would go against a wall with an insulated dummy on the other side.


Do remember to allow the bees access to the entrance!  (As if you wouldn't ... )




> I think Gavin mentioned a system he uses which is a split box above a snelgrove board or something like that.


Yes, I still use it as a means of generating nucs with new mated queens, for increase or boosting the vigour of a colony in mid summer prior to the flit to the heather.  A split board as described by Wedmore.  When you get the hang of it you can introduce a frame of eggs and change the female line that way if you want.  Described here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-queen-rearing

With some pictures: 

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...ing-the-splits 

Paynes nuc boxes are easier and I now have a good few of these.




> I dont think the mesh floor would be good for returning virgins- too much opportunity for confusion IMHO.


Yes, workers and presumably virgins can get lost under the floor when they're not used to it.  When putting a split into a Paynes box with the entrance at the base (old design) now I usually put a piece of wood under the entrance to stop them walking under.  The new design has the entrance high up the side and I think that will lead to less confusion.

----------


## Jon

> Do remember to allow the bees access to the entrance!  (As if you wouldn't ... )


There is a bee space under the dummy boards.

MBC



> I dont think the mesh floor would be good for returning virgins- too much opportunity for confusion IMHO.


A little rectangle of correx inside the nuc sorts that out.

----------


## prakel

> I dont think the mesh floor would be good for returning virgins- too much opportunity for confusion IMHO


As someone who generally avoids mesh floors can I ask, are you referring to confusion in the sense that the queens simply miss the door and don't manage to get back in to the hive or, do you see a possible issue with a kind of overpowering of her senses resulting from an_ increased_ exposure to the scent of several mating nucs all in pretty much the same condition in the same area.

----------


## Jon

I had a swarm arrive in the garden last June into a Payne poly box and the queen ended up under the floor.

----------


## mbc

> A little rectangle of correx inside the nuc sorts that out.


That will do it, but to open up the ventilation the frames would have to be removed, not ideal!  The original design was shown on Williams famous wealdplace farm website and it showed a solid bottom and a separate ventilated top cover for transport, much preferable IMHO.
Edit: the fixed internal feeder, too narrow to get my hand in, rules the paynes box out from me using them for mating too, saying that, I do use them quite a bit and have not had a queen in the feeder, so far!



> As someone who generally avoids mesh floors can I ask, are you referring to confusion in the sense that the queens simply miss the door and don't manage to get back in to the hive or, do you see a possible issue with a kind of overpowering of her senses resulting from an_ increased_ exposure to the scent of several mating nucs all in pretty much the same condition in the same area.


Returning queens can get "stuck" under a mesh floor as the smell tells them they're in the right place but they cant understand why they cannot get through the mesh, and occasionally will die trying without ever making it round to the entrance!

----------


## Jon

> That will do it, but to open up the ventilation the frames would have to be removed, not ideal!


I was only planning to have 1 frame in it anyway.
I have about 15 of these Paynes boxes and thought they might make decent mating nucs with just a single frame of bees and a ripe queen cell.
I'll give it a try anyway but I still love my apideas!

----------


## mbc

> I was only planning to have 1 frame in it anyway.
> I have about 15 of these Paynes boxes and thought they might make decent mating nucs with just a single frame of bees and a ripe queen cell.
> I'll give it a try anyway but I still love my apideas!


A vast space for one frame of bees to heat and they'd build wild comb as soon as you took your eye off them if they were successful.  
I use them as a 'drop and go' way of using mated queens from mininucs usefully, one frame of brood and a frame of stores with enough bees to cover both, plus a mated queen and a feeder full, made up in early August can be left without much further attention for 8 months and be a valuable commodity to use how you will in April.

----------


## Jon

The space will be filled with a fat dummy frame so the bees will only be in a small area for the single frame of bees to heat between the wall and the dummy.
The dummy frame is 50mm thick of polystyrene so the insulation is good.

correx-box-insulated-dummy.jpg dummy boards.jpg

----------


## Adam

I'm way behind this year. My polystyrene boxes need cleaning properly as I didn't get around to it during the winter. 
The bees are more advanced. Having been away and not inspecting for close to 3 weeks, I was surprised to find so many drones in the hives; so the bees are ready even if I'm not.

----------


## greengumbo

[QUOTE=Adam;24772]I'm way behind this year. My polystyrene boxes need cleaning properly as I didn't get around to it during the winter. 
The bees are more advanced. Having been away and not inspecting for close to 3 weeks, I was surprised to find so many drones in the hives; so the bees are ready even if I'm not.[/QUOT

3 of my hives are doing well but one that I hoped was just lagging behind has a queen that is only laying the odd drone and nothing else. Time for a squish and a graft I think. Plenty bees so they should be fine and I can replace her with a nice AMM. Drones now flying from my 2 biggest hives so virgin should get mated easily enough...I hope !

----------


## prakel

Hope no one objects to this being posted on the forum but I've just noticed this 'NB Cupkit' on introductory offer from Thornes @ £25.00 inc vat. Smaller than the old style but could well be good value for someone who wants to go down this road.




> This clever and very successful system encompasses every aspect of the process, achieving the benefits of grafting without the difficulties
> 
> 32 purple cell cups are placed in the back of the comb box which has previously been fixed in a brood comb, and the queen is put in the front of the cage under a queen excluder. As she is in full lay, she continues to lay eggs in the artificial cups. She can be released manually the next day.
> 
>  On the 4th days, very small, newly hatched larvae can be seen through the back of the cups, each in a pin-prick of royal jelly. Very easily, each cell cup is lifted off with a cell cup cap which passes onto a cell bar fitted with cell bar blocks. When the queen cells are sealed, hair roller cages can be slipped over, so that emerging virgins are contained. These cages can then be used for travelling and introduction.
> 
> Each kit contains: 1 plastic comb box, 10 hair roller cages, 32 purple cell cups, 10 cell bar blocks, 10 cell cup caps and full instructions.

----------


## Bridget

Yes I saw that too and wondered if anyone had tried it.  Thought it might be a good "starter kit" for me to have a try at raising a few queens


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

----------


## Jimbo

I have used the cup kit for a number of years. Initially you have to place it in the hive before the queen is introduced and I sprayed with a honey water solution for the bees to clean. Once it has been used a few times you don't need to do this. Sometimes the queen when placed in the cup kit will stop laying but if you leave it an extra day you will get eggs layed eventually. When I see the eggs I release the queen and leave for the eggs to hatch. I then transfer the one day old larvae to a cell raiser. I get a 70 -80% acceptance rate. You can also download Tom's Table from the BIBBA web site that gives you the timings when you have to do manipulations with the cup kit.

Just noticed this is a smaller setup than the one I use

----------


## Jon

The acceptance rate is the key thing and I think this has more to do with the state of the colony where the larvae are introduced. I doubt if grafted larva or cupkit larvae make a lot of difference to acceptance rate.

----------


## busybeephilip

That mini cupkit looks to be reasonably good value, I assume that the purple cups are just the same size as the brown ones.  Does anyone know if the box (basic unit) can be bought on its own without the cell cages like the way the larger 110 cell box can be at  http://www.buzzybeeshop.co.uk/styled...e14/index.html 

My eyes are getting bad and i dont need to rear 110 queens in one go

----------


## Jon

I took a queen out of a hive on Wednesday and grafted in a frame of larvae an hour later.
Just checked and they have started about a dozen cells.
I'll get those into Apideas tomorrow week.

----------


## busybeephilip

Here is some pics of what I've been doing recently  - making my style of apideas, each box holds 2 single frame nucs  IMG_1741.jpg

and just made 4 heather floors to try out from scrap wood, painted with old style cuprinol

IMG_1740.jpg

Here is one of the single frame nuc boxes
IMG_1742.jpg

----------


## greengumbo

> I took a queen out of a hive on Wednesday and grafted in a frame of larvae an hour later.
> Just checked and they have started about a dozen cells.
> I'll get those into Apideas tomorrow week.


Nice work Jon. I'm going to start mine in earnest. Drones flying now. 

Do you get apidea / mininuc frames drawn in a queenright colony beforehand or do the bees you fill the apideas get to work quickly ?

I was thinking of just using starter strips.

----------


## Jon

I have loads of apidea frames with comb already drawn. 
I fumigate them over winter with acetic acid fumes to kill any nosema spores they might have.
I don't see the point in starting from scratch every summer.
I put a completely drawn frame nearest the feeder and the front two are cut back by half so the at the apidea can be filled via the floor.
If you put in 3 drawn combs you can't fill the apidea properly.

If you are starting from scratch a feeder full of 1:1 syrup gets the frames drawn out fairly quickly.

I checked my cells yesterday evening and they were just on the point of being sealed and they look like decent sized cells as well.

----------


## Poly Hive

The cup kit on the surface seems very simple and straightforward. However... I have tried several times but each time the queen lays up in a hopity skip pattern so all the plugs are avoided. Now no doubt this is all due to my errors but I ended up grafting out the Jenter into a cell starter box which to my dim head seemed a bit odd.  

KISS works for grafting as well as many other matters. 

PH

----------


## Bumble

> and just made 4 heather floors to try out from scrap wood, painted with old style cuprinol
> 
> Attachment 1998


Taking a stroll away from the topic of queen raising, is that a central vertical entrance I see? If so, is there a baffle in front of it the same as with the Dartington-type floor? If not, it looks a much easier way to make one.

----------


## prakel

> Early May's my preferred time


Just made a small batch of cell cups for an initial start later this week.

----------


## greengumbo

Just a few questions !

My first grafting attempts pretty much failed - out of 20 grafts only 3 resulted in drawn cells. I was finding getting the very young larvae off the grafting tool quite difficult and may have damaged a fair number of them....any hints ?

Secondly, these cells are now sealed and due to hatch on saturday / sunday. I want to start grafting again straight away.....is it okay to move these to mating nucs on friday and then start again (after moving brood frames around in the rearing hive). 

I have access to a small incubator as well. Would it be possible to move newly sealed cells carefully into this incubator and leave them until near hatching ? What would the optimum temp and humidity be ?

----------


## Rosie

I have had to stop my queen rearing because the continuous rain has caused a severe shortage of pollen stores in my queen rearing colonies.  You might be suffering from the weather rather than your grafting ability.  I always transfer my queen cells 10 days after grafting and a day or 2 before they emerge.  Occasionally I put cells in my honey warming cabinet set at about 34 degrees C with a bowl of water to keep it moist.  I don't know exactly what the ideal humidity and temperature should be and suspect they are not that critical because they rarely fail.

----------


## Black Comb

That's a good idea Rosie.
How do you arrange / suspend the cells in the cabinet?
In oasis?

----------


## fatshark

GG … what are you using as a 'grafting tool'? Try a 00 paintbrush. Easy to slide under the larva, then just rotate in your fingers to slide the larva off into the dry cup. Much better (IMHO) than a Chinese grafting tool or one of those metal ones. We ran a course here for outright beginners and all (just about) managed to get cells from their first ever go at grafting (using a paintbrush). You soon get a taste for the royal jelly. Also helps to choose larvae already sitting in a reasonably generous dollop (the technical term) of jelly.

However, Rosie is probably correct … the weather is pants. If there's no flow - or no way of the bees detecting it because they'd drown if they leave the hive - you can feed them thin syrup which sometimes works. If you have a source of pollen you can liberally sprinkle it in the frame adjacent to the cell bar frame - they use it perfectly well. 

Your timing should work just fine.

I also use my honey warming cabinet sometimes. I use Nicot hair roller cages and let the virgins emerge in them. I stand the cages in a small block of foam - the sort they pack some electrical goods in - so they don't tip over. I have a shallow tray of water nearby to keep things humid. I don't know that the humidity is supposed to be but - as Rosie says - this generally works. I have the temperature at 34 degrees Centigrade. Don't leave the virgins for long after emergence.

----------


## Black Comb

So you transfer to cabinet on the 10th day or just after they are sealed?

----------


## Jon

> So you transfer to cabinet on the 10th day or just after they are sealed?


They are sealed by the 5th day from grafting.
The critical period for damage through temperature fluctuation or mishandling is the 4 days after the cell is sealed, ie up to day 9. At day 10 the queen is pretty much fully formed and the cells are quite hardy at this point.

I bought a Brinsea Octagon incubator which I am using for the first time.
I put a batch of 18 cells in it last weekend and had 16 or 17 emerge ok.
With the cells in an incubator you have them in rollers and can transfer the cells to the apideas on day 11.
If the odd one emerges early you put it in an apidea and chuck a scoop of wet bees on top of it.
I put a little bit of fondant honey mix in the bottom of each roller so an emerged queen has something to feed on.
Without this any emerging in the night would be dead in the morning. They only last a couple of hours without food.
The other thing you can do is put a couple of workers in each roller.

I also use the 000 sable paintbrush.
Ordered another dozen yesterday as they are easy to lose.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1113447524...84.m1497.l2649

----------


## fatshark

> So you transfer to cabinet on the 10th day or just after they are sealed?


Either … comes to exactly the same thing as the cells are sealed*. However, I usually let the colony do this bit. My production line is intended to be more Rolls Royce than Ford … and I simply don't have the time or resources to get 20 queens mated a week (or a use for that number).

* I'm in some sort of interweb time warp … Jon has already said this.

----------


## Jon

Can't keep up with those nimble typing fingers fatshark!

----------


## mbc

+1 for the fine brush

----------


## Jon

Most people I know use the chinese grafting tool but you can work really quickly with the brush when you get the hang of it.
40 grafts should take ten minutes max.

----------


## Black Comb

Thank you folks. First class advice as ever.

----------


## Rosie

> That's a good idea Rosie.
> How do you arrange / suspend the cells in the cabinet?
> In oasis?


I leave the cells on their grafting frame and slip a hair roller over them.  I notice that Jon puts fondant in them.  I do usually and tried it with a swarm cell about a week ago with no food.  I found that a queen had emerged and died between my daily checks so it had not lasted long without food.

----------


## Jon

I have lost them too Steve. A couple of hours without food and an early emerged queen is a goner.

----------


## greengumbo

Queen cells in the first lyson double and homemade bodge nucs now  :Smile:  Lovely day up here. LYSON1.jpgLYSON2.jpgHOMEMADE1.jpg

----------


## fatshark

Quality hive stand in that middle pic  :Wink:  Can't think of a funny comment to make about the wheels, but I should.

----------


## gavin

Be kind to GG, he's new to this. He just got the wrong idea about roller cages, that's all! 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

----------


## Little_John

> That mini cupkit looks to be reasonably good value, I assume that the purple cups are just the same size as the brown ones.


I agree about the value - but why purple just for this kit ? I've emailed Th****s to ask if there's any significance in the colour and whether they're the same size as brown ... but no reply. Yet.

I don't see anyone else selling this smaller kit .. or the purple cell cups either.
LJ

----------


## greengumbo

> Be kind to GG, he's new to this. He just got the wrong idea about roller cages, that's all! 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


I'm just jumping on the bandwagon. Found those hive stands in a skip neat the site. Quality stuff ! 

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

----------


## Jon

Beekeepers find it hard to walk past a skip without finding something of interest to fish out.
Big pieces of Kingspan are often to be found.

----------


## fatshark

Or *drive* past a skip … or an abandoned 'For Sale' sign (I've been known to carry a saw in the car to cut the wooden post down to size).

----------


## Little_John

> I agree about the value - but why purple just for this kit ? I've emailed Th****s to ask if there's any significance in the colour and whether they're the same size as brown ... but no reply. Yet.
> 
> I don't see anyone else selling this smaller kit .. or the purple cell cups either.
> LJ


Ok - it took 2 emails, but I got a reply from Paul at Th****s earlier today.

The purple cell cups *are* interchangeable with the standard brown cell cups. The reason for the colour difference is that 'tis made by a different company. Which also explains why this kit isn't listed on the Nicotplast home site ... or anywhere else for that matter.
LJ

----------


## greengumbo

Riddle me this. My double lyson mating nuc was filled with bees. Then a ripe queen cell in each half. One side never hatches....looked like the cell had been entombed with burr comb as when cut open today, a week later, queen was dead and fully developed inside. Odder still, in the other half there was no sign of queen, the hatched QC, no eggs other than a single egg in two queen cups. How is that possible ? Next lot of grafts started though. 

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

----------


## fatshark

GG there are people around here also reporting less than usually successful queen mating. I checked 8 yesterday, none of which had a laying Q yet (though there was evidence the Q had emerged) and some of which had no Q present. I'd expected them all to be laying by now. The weather has been all over the place, with relatively few days conducive to mating. There's also the neonics ban … perhaps we've selected for bees that *need* neonics?

Seriously, I'd assume there was something wrong with the first Q. They might have added the burr comb afterwards, rather than entombed her. They often rip down the cell from which the Q emerged. In the boxes I checked (2+ weeks after adding a cell in a Nicot cup) the only thing remaining was the cup and holder.

There's thunder as I'm writing this, so not good for mating today either.

----------


## Jon

Mine are emerging ok although one curious thing had been the odd one emerging about 3 days late in the incubator.
Curiouser still, they seem to be ok with the wings properly formed.
Mine are flying and mating ok.
I have about 20 laying now in Apideas.

I am finding the grafting very erratic.
I have 3 queenless starters set up and 6 Queenright Ben Harden setups including the ones at the association Apiary.
The queenright colonies are typically only starting about 3 or 4 out of 20 grafts offered.
The queenless starter colonies are better but quite erratic.
I grafted 22 cells into one on a Friday and got 4 starts.
I moved them and grafted again the next day and got 20 started.
I am using queenless colonies as starters then moving the cells to queenright colonies 24-48 hours later.

----------


## mbc

> other than a single egg in two queen cups. How is that possible ?


laying worker

----------


## mbc

> Mine are emerging ok although one curious thing had been the odd one emerging about 3 days late in the incubator.
> Curiouser still, they seem to be ok with the wings properly formed.
> Mine are flying and mating ok.
> I have about 20 laying now in Apideas.
> 
> I am finding the grafting very erratic.
> I have 3 queenless starters set up and 6 Queenright Ben Harden setups including the ones at the association Apiary.
> The queenright colonies are typically only starting about 3 or 4 out of 20 grafts offered.
> The queenless starter colonies are better but quite erratic.
> ...


If I were you I'd build myself a cloak board  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> If I were you I'd build myself a cloak board


I intend to. Most of the other NIHBS guys use the cloake board.
A queenless starter is usually quite reliable for getting cells started.

I have the starter set up with a Payne poly nuc and 3 ekes on top so it has 11 frames and a gap for the frame of grafts.

----------


## mbc

> I have the starter set up with a Payne poly nuc and 3 ekes on top so it has 11 frames and a gap for the frame of grafts.


Lol, why is it that we cannot help but cobble things together.  My favourite top box in the two box cloak system is one of the poly "nationals" Abelo were selling, which had too much space either side of the frame so I've added two thin sheets of ply to bring the walls out and act as frame runners.

----------


## greengumbo

> GG there are people around here also reporting less than usually successful queen mating. I checked 8 yesterday, none of which had a laying Q yet (though there was evidence the Q had emerged) and some of which had no Q present. I'd expected them all to be laying by now. The weather has been all over the place, with relatively few days conducive to mating. There's also the neonics ban  perhaps we've selected for bees that *need* neonics?
> 
> Seriously, I'd assume there was something wrong with the first Q. They might have added the burr comb afterwards, rather than entombed her. They often rip down the cell from which the Q emerged. In the boxes I checked (2+ weeks after adding a cell in a Nicot cup) the only thing remaining was the cup and holder.
> 
> There's thunder as I'm writing this, so not good for mating today either.


Could it be that I'm trying to give strongly AMM queens to italian / buckfasty filled mating nucs ? 

Will start some new grafts this week. I was annoyed at the entombed queen so I "ran in" a virgin through the entrance with a big puff of smoke. Will be interested to see what happens.

----------


## Jon

> Could it be that I'm trying to give strongly AMM queens to italian / buckfasty filled mating nucs ?


That should make no difference.

----------


## fatshark

Cell raising in 2014 is going brilliantly … 
20140611-0019.jpg
… but queen mating is dreadful. Two or three out of eight in three frame nucs in the last but one batch. Many are going queenless. We've had some terrific thunderstorms in the afternoons and I suspect a lot are drowning. I've never done so many inspections in the rain.

PS The box in the background has a Horsley board in place … again, now suspected queenless after she emerged successfully.

----------


## Jon

Weather here has been ok.
I got another 23 cells into my apideas today and now have about 75 set out.
Don't want to tempt fate but mating so far has been ok and I have about 20 queens laying.
Today was a perfect day for mating and it got up to about 22c so a few more likely flew this afternoon.

I also have about 25 cells to put into the apideas of the queen rearing group members by tomorrow afternoon.

----------


## fatshark

Timing is everything … I've had some great weather when cells are being raised, but it's been chucking it down the rest of the time. I'm beginning to think the full time job is getting in the way a bit. 

Here are some of our beginners on our queen rearing course in the association apiary … 5.30pm, totally filthy weather, soaked.

20140608-0013.jpg

----------


## greengumbo

Updates: My smoke run in virgin had eggs a week ago so will wait and see what they look like this week. The other two queens were still present and heaps of pollen going in so hopefully when I look this week there will be eggs.

Helped a pal on here in his AMM breeding efforts this weekend  :Smile:  Cut outs and a fat queen cell donated to the cause. Learned a lot about reading a comb and clipping queens. Need to sort that particular hive out before they swarm !

Hope you got some useful material from the cut outs. There will be plenty more if you want a repeat attempt.

----------


## gavin

> Updates: My smoke run in virgin had eggs a week ago so will wait and see what they look like this week. The other two queens were still present and heaps of pollen going in so hopefully when I look this week there will be eggs.
> 
> Helped a pal on here in his AMM breeding efforts this weekend  Cut outs and a fat queen cell donated to the cause. Learned a lot about reading a comb and clipping queens. Need to sort that particular hive out before they swarm !
> 
> Hope you got some useful material from the cut outs. There will be plenty more if you want a repeat attempt.


Thanks pal!  Great to see your place, the wee nippers and all the others Chez GG on a Saturday.  Managed all the way back to the Longforgan area for the association meet-up with 1 min to spare.  Given that most of the larvae were a bit on the large side and that this was my first grafting session of the season, a take of seven out of twenty was pleasing.  They'll go into Apideas in about 7 days, two days before the predicted hatch time.  From your comments, the wee test you ran and the comments of the previous owner Emma (thanks too!), these should be very useful stock for the isolated breeding we're getting underway.

I still have some eggs literally kicking about in the back of the car and may have a peek to see if they're worth trying fixing to a top bar even now.

The Apidea with the Q cell is still in the shade at the back of the shed and these are the grafts at lunchtime today.

G.

----------


## drumgerry

Quick question guys.  Do you protect a queen cell (with foil or something) being given to mating nuc that's had it's queen taken out?

----------


## fatshark

Hi DG … I have done in the past, but stopped doing so some time ago … without any noticeable difference in success.

----------


## Jon

The need for a cell protector is one of the biggest myths in queen rearing!
I took out 10 queens yesterday and put ten ripe queen cells straight in. Most of the queens had emerged this morning.
Best thing is to do it right away. If you wait a couple of days they will start their own queen cell from a larva in the apidea and they may kill the queen from your added queen cell if they fancy their own more. But I have also noticed a few times that the virgin from the cell you add can coexist with a sealed queen cell they have made themselves. Not sure why the virgin does not tear it down. It is worth checking for these queen cells once you have added the second cell to an apidea with brood in it. Plenty of time as it will be at least 12 days before anything emerges from a cell made after a queen has been removed from an apidea.

----------


## greengumbo

> Thanks pal!  Great to see your place, the wee nippers and all the others Chez GG on a Saturday.  Managed all the way back to the Longforgan area for the association meet-up with 1 min to spare.  Given that most of the larvae were a bit on the large side and that this was my first grafting session of the season, a take of seven out of twenty was pleasing.  They'll go into Apideas in about 7 days, two days before the predicted hatch time.  From your comments, the wee test you ran and the comments of the previous owner Emma (thanks too!), these should be very useful stock for the isolated breeding we're getting underway.
> 
> I still have some eggs literally kicking about in the back of the car and may have a peek to see if they're worth trying fixing to a top bar even now.
> 
> The Apidea with the Q cell is still in the shade at the back of the shed and these are the grafts at lunchtime today.
> 
> G.


Nice work Gav. It was rather a full house on Saturday morn ! Went out to look at the sea cliffs puffins later in the afternoon....managed not to lose kids over the edge.

Anyway good to see 7 of them took ! Its a start  :Smile:  I will be grafting again from this lot as soon as the mating nuc queens are moved on. I've also bodged up another 2 mating nucs bringing me up to 5 units.

Off to check everything today if this overcast threatening cloud buggers off.

----------


## greengumbo

> Nice work Gav. It was rather a full house on Saturday morn ! Went out to look at the sea cliffs puffins later in the afternoon....managed not to lose kids over the edge.
> 
> Anyway good to see 7 of them took ! Its a start  I will be grafting again from this lot as soon as the mating nuc queens are moved on. I've also bodged up another 2 mating nucs bringing me up to 5 units.
> 
> Off to check everything today if this overcast threatening cloud buggers off.


Three mating nucs checked.....three laying queens  :Smile: 

Next lot going in friday. Supers filling up again already although god knows what they are finding at the moment.

----------


## Jon

> god knows what they are finding at the moment.


bramble is out
clover as well
saw willowherb in flower
lime trees
himalayan balsam has started
I have a 30 acre field of spring sown oil seed rape just come into flower as well.

Nice one re. the 3 queens.

----------


## Black Comb

Big boxes startling to lay 5 weeks after A/S.
Apideas some have filled 3 frames with brood in the meantime.
Both started roughly the same time.
Still a dearth of nectar here. Bramble just starting to open.

----------


## Jon

Bugger!
Just had a virgin tear down a frame of 16 good cells.
My own fault. I missed a queen cell at the bottom of a frame of drone brood.
I found the open cell but not the virgin.

----------


## fatshark

I've been caught out a couple of times with queen cells being produced at the very edge of a three-quarters drawn foundationless frame of drone brood. Both times I've caught them in time. Both times I'd scanned the frame thinking something like "_Hmmm  what lovely white wax. Lots of drone brood here. Actually it's all drone brood. Great  I'll cut this out when it's capped._"

Then  as I gently slide it back into the brood box ...

"_Whoa  what's that at the edge?_"

Haven't lost any grafted cells due to rampant virgins this year, but have had one lot totally entombed in a huge slab of brace comb totally filled with nectar. Work commitments prevented me getting the roller cages on in time. The bramble and clover (can't imagine what else, the HB is still some way off here) is awesome at the moment with a better flow than the OSR produced.

----------


## Jon

I have been grafting a lot and I have another frame of 15 or so just 2 days behind this one so will have enough cells, but bugger, there were some really good ones on that frame.
I moved a different batch of cells to the incubator this afternoon and these ones were due out on Saturday. I had a quick look earlier this evening and two were out in the rollers already and most of the rest of them wriggling in the cells. I got 7 of the cells into apideas and will sort out the virgin queens tomorrow. I only have 2 empty apideas left now.

----------


## greengumbo

Grrrr. Queen I introduced was dead in cage when I went to release her today. 2nd time this has happened in this hive. Any thoughts ? Is candy okay to seal queen cages or is it too dry and they could have too little water ? Really annoying.

----------


## gavin

You're making me nervous, having recently committed some treasured queens to stocks that are a bit tetchy and definitely hungry. 

- How long was the queen laying for before you moved her? I thought that they were best left for a full cycle but I know queens are usually moved pretty smartly.

- Did you leave attendents with her?

- According to Wedmore bees are in the best state to receive a new Q 6-12 hrs or a week or more after being dequeened. 

- The nuc method is most successful at this time of year. Wedmore says use emerging brood if you can in the nuc. 

- Jon has mentioned leaving the tab on (if its a plastic cage), or leaving the entrance to the Q cage covered somehow, until the workers seem well disposed to her.

It strikes me that introduction might be the tricky bit. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

----------


## Adam

> Grrrr. Queen I introduced was dead in cage when I went to release her today. 2nd time this has happened in this hive. Any thoughts ? Is candy okay to seal queen cages or is it too dry and they could have too little water ? Really annoying.


Hard candy will delay the opening which is no bad thing. The queen is supposed to be fed when in the cage... You don't have laying workers in there do you?
A large colony is not so easy to requeen. I introduced queens into colonies last year using just smoke - no cage at all. They were ALL accepted.

----------


## prakel

A few of our 'country' cells being started  :Smile: 

SAM_3655 (3).jpg

----------


## Black Comb

miller method?

----------


## prakel

No, grafted larvae in wax cups which are mounted on short lengths of wood which we push into the face of the mating nuc comb.

----------


## Jon

Look like they will make good cells.

----------


## prakel

Hope so! It's an 'extra' batch that we don't really need to do but it seems a shame to waste all this great weather -we're also using it as a bit of a trial run of Pasaga Ramic's cell starting method. If there's any interest I'll offer some detailed thoughts on it at a later time once we've put a few more batches through. I will say that I'm happy with this initial run. 

There are blog entries describing the method by Erik Osterlund here and more recent follow ups here and here.

----------


## Jon

I took home a frame with nine cells on it earlier this evening in the pannier of the bike - queens due to emerge tomorrow and one was out in the roller already.
I called into Tesco to pick up a pizza and a pack of mushrooms for my tea and put the mushroom punnet in the pannier with the cells.
The mushroom pack must have dislodged one of the cells as when I got home there were only 8 rollers on the bar so there must be a stray roller with an emerging queen outside of Tesco Dunmurry if anyone happens to be passing. Good Galtee stock.

----------


## gavin

> Nice work Gav. It was rather a full house on Saturday morn !  [snip]


So, the seven grafts went up to our mating site last Tues, 2 days before they were due to hatch (looked about right too).  We left them in peace yesterday as they haven't had long enough to mate.  The queen cell you gave me, GG, went up several days before and should have hatched around 25th June.  Yesterday, around 11 days on from emergence, we were really pleased to see eggs in her Apidea.  It is in a shady spot so I'm hoping my failure to remember to take a Q excluder to prevent absconding isn't critical.  We also seem to have a decent week coming up so I'm hopeful that we may see some of them laying next weekend.

Less good was the total failure of Saturday's grafts.  OK, I didn't pack a box to overflowing with young bees but just removed the queen from a likely colony an hour before inserting grafts, and shuffled in a frame of pollen.  Maybe Sunday's replacements will fare better.  The one I had in mind to graft into had more young bees and had had no brood to feed recently, but I'd missed queen cells in it so it wasn't suitable. 

We wrapped the grafts on Saturday in a dish towel which had been recently washed and still smelled of conditioner.  Would a scented towel around the grafts make them more liable to be rejected?

Collaborators also have mated dark queens up there in Paynes boxes, and have now also transferred grafts to Kielers and Apideas.   :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## greengumbo

> So, the seven grafts went up to our mating site last Tues, 2 days before they were due to hatch (looked about right too).  We left them in peace yesterday as they haven't had long enough to mate.  The queen cell you gave me, GG, went up several days before and should have hatched around 25th June.  Yesterday, around 11 days on from emergence, we were really pleased to see eggs in her Apidea.  It is in a shady spot so I'm hoping my failure to remember to take a Q excluder to prevent absconding isn't critical.  We also seem to have a decent week coming up so I'm hopeful that we may see some of them laying next weekend.


Excellent  :Smile:  Do you want more eggs ? I am going to graft again this week from her.

My anti-swarming techniques slowed her down but not completely. Swapped all brood out for foundation and a few store frames and boosted another hive with the brood. 1 Week later and 5 frames laid up including 4 QC being drawn  :Frown:

----------


## gavin

> Excellent  Do you want more eggs ? I am going to graft again this week from her.
> 
> My anti-swarming techniques slowed her down but not completely. Swapped all brood out for foundation and a few store frames and boosted another hive with the brood. 1 Week later and 5 frames laid up including 4 QC being drawn


I'd have thought - a week later and 5 frames laid up including 4 QC being drawn  :Smile:  :Smile: !  She's done well that queen.  

E's raising queen cells from her daughters at the moment and if the Magnificent Seven (plus the other one) mate then we probably have enough of that line for now.  There are other stocks we're raising Qs from and more on their way from a famous Scottish island.  So I'll hold off for now (realising that I may miss the chance), but thanks for the offer.  Might change my mind soon though!

G.

----------


## greengumbo

> I'd have thought - a week later and 5 frames laid up including 4 QC being drawn !  She's done well that queen.  
> 
> E's raising queen cells from her daughters at the moment and if the Magnificent Seven (plus the other one) mate then we probably have enough of that line for now.  There are other stocks we're raising Qs from and more on their way from a famous Scottish island.  So I'll hold off for now (realising that I may miss the chance), but thanks for the offer.  Might change my mind soon though!
> 
> G.


No probs ! Feel free to change your mind. I could have a wee trip down to your apiary at last.

I would love to graft some of your AMM or pending AMM stocks as well if possible.

Solved the problem of that hive killing my introduced queens.....can you guess ? Yup ....very few stores and a very slim queen wandering about already. Pretty tiny so no wonder I missed her especially as she has only been laying a few eggs. I have given them a good feed and will let them get on with it.

----------


## prakel

> ...wax cups which are mounted on short lengths of wood which we push into the face of the mating nuc comb.


SAM_3855 (2).jpg

----------


## prakel

> .....we're also using it as a bit of a trial run of Pasaga Ramic's cell starting method. If there's any interest I'll offer some detailed thoughts on it at a later time once we've put a few more batches through. I will say that I'm happy with this initial run.


Well, there was zero interest, but I'm pleased to say that the method worked very well.

----------

