# General beekeeping > Bee blether >  Should the SBA membership be growing faster??

## The Drone Ranger

Beekeeping is experiencing tremendous growth but is the SBA growing at the same rate ??

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## Jimbo

Hi DR,
In our association we have had a large number of new beekeepers over the last few years. This is after an agressive advertising campaign by the committee as it was thought the currrent members were getting on a bit. Although we are now getting newer and younger members we are also turning over a large number of people even though we have been able to supply bees to every new member who has requested them, organised various training courses and every new member has been appointed a mentor. Our association should looking why this is happening. The people who join the SBA seem to be the ones who have been a beekeeper for a number of years. 
One possible solution would be for the SBA to provide support material on why you should join the SBA (I don't just mean a pile of membership forms) to the Area reps who visit each association to sell the SBA

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## Trog

> One possible solution would be for the SBA to provide support material on why you should join the SBA (I don't just mean a pile of membership forms) to the Area reps who visit each association to sell the SBA


That could be an interesting trip for the north area rep  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

Do you think all local association members should automatically become SBA members?

What proportion of local association members actually subscribe to the SBA?

Does anyone feel as I do that the magazine although improved is still way behind the likes of Beecraft.

Should the magazine be available as a full colour online version which might attract members.

If there was a lively market in bees advertised in the magazine would more people join

How about discounted purchases with tokens printed in the magazine

Should the SBA abandon printing its own magazine and approach Beecraft who are now independent and have them print a Scottish edition?

When the SBA print surveys do the members get enough opportunities to participate??
 I can remember several where  the only people polled were in local associations does that make sense ??

If the SBA had a breeding program which could meet the members needs for queens would that encourage people to subscribe.

Does the SBA sometimes just use the members numerical presence to claim support for stances they adopt without consultation?
I mean here things like the SBA submission to the Scottish Government consultation on bee planning where they cited one of the problem factors as "global warming" ????
Anyone in Scotland noticed global warming ?? I haven't

Taking Jon's point a few years ago I looked at the SBA membership figures and there was definite signs of a revolving door syndrome where members joined and the left the following year that points to a fairly serious problem would it be a good idea to ask them why ??

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## gavin

Sometimes less is more when it comes to asking people questions.

Any organisation that covers a rather tricky craft, where the difficulties surface a year or two later, is going to lose a proportion of the new members.

There has been endless debate on changing the magazine and folk come back to the value for money of the current arrangement.  Go down the BBKA route and it will cost people twice as much, plus you lose the ability of the organisation to communicate adequately with the members.

SBA and consultation.  This generally happens at the Council meeting in the autumn.  Can you think of a better way?  I think that there is an aspiration to revisit the organisation's stance on GM crops and the alignment the SBA has made with anti-GM campaigning groups at the next one.  There should be a period of debate on such things with the membership beforehand.  Will it happen in the magazine, or on here, or both?

Isn't global warming a big problem?  Our mean temperature has gone up a degree C or two and that will just accelerate.  That might be OK for Scotland but not for humanity.

Breeding programmes will never come from the SBA.  That's one for localism.

The SBA used to run on the same lines as the English BBKA but abandoned it decades ago.  Much better this way.  Yes, you have fewer members but they are committed rather than cajoled.

A Scottish edition of BeeCraft would be daft.  Might as well make the SBA the Scottish branch of the BBKA.

I think that the voluntary nature of the SBA office bearers is a good thing.  We're 1/10 the size of the English equivalent but that must reflect the numbers of beekeepers in the two places.  Having Suits in charge, as the BBKA does, doesn't make for better governance or greater attention to the membership.

OK, your premise above made some assumptions but I'm short of data so haven't voted.  What size is the membership?  Has the recent proportional increase been similar to the BBKA's?  What allowance do we make for the greater commitment it takes to be an SBA member?2

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## kevboab

Well said Drone Ranger. A lot of good questions in there. Would be interesting to hear the answers from the membership as I for one would like to see a more active SBA.

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## gavin

I know that the new man at the top, Phil, is looking for ideas so anything you can suggest will be listened to carefully.  If you are lucky he may even come on here and discuss it.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Sometimes less is more when it comes to asking people questions.
> 
> 2


Not really Gavin I'm trying to simulate a debate on what we the SBA membership think.
I wasn't expecting you as admin to have to answer a series of questions ?

what are other organisations doing lets hear from them as well

You are not seriously suggesting that global warming is affecting bees in Scotland are you?? 
That's what the SBA told the Scottish Government

They also called for compulsory registration of beekeepers in Scotland that's a long way on from asking Local assoc. members to join the SBA

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## Neonach

For those like me who are not within a local association area, direct membership is not an extra but an only. I am not currently a member, despite the fact that I wish to join and have a metaphorical blank membership form filed in my metaphorical pending tray ready to convert into physical fact. The reason is that if I join now I would pay full annual subscription for only 3 months membership. I can scarcely afford membership at all, but certainly I have to wait until January. And for other folk such a wait might actually lead to them changing their mind. Indeed I might myself, if only because of new pressures on finances.

I have no experience of associations, but I do wonder if in many cases they might be quite content with attracting their own membership, and have little interest in promoting membership of SBA. Perhaps they might be incentivized?

I believe SBA needs to modernize, by as far as practicable changing to a virtual organization, with electronic news and magazines (electronic download for members only, and old editions available to all) , and making much more use of mediums like this forum. Certainly its own website could be a great deal more attractive and easier to get around.

As far as print magazines, there is a well-established model in newspapers with regional editions (or with regional inserts); or the magazines of professional institutions which in many cases have been externalized but on terms which give the institution an 'official' institution segment. Beecraft could be used in this way.  However I believe that could end up giving an impression of a small and weak SBA.

Like others, I would myself prefer a smaller tighter organisation of the committed and experienced volunteer rather than a mass membership organisation. Yes that does have implications for finances, but that reinforces the need to use electronic media to best effect. 

I would suggest that SBA could source and organize knowledge and expertise and seek grants to support the work of local associations. However the actual delivery of for example of bee-raising programmes, workshops or visits - anything practical and involving people really meeting and working together - should happen at a local level.  That said, there must be others like me who are outwith the reach of local assocations, and I think SBA could have a role to play in nurturing these isolated beekeepers, who may offer great potential in terms of bio-security, or stimulating newcomers to beekeeping in that area and the possible formation of new local associations.

All of which you can dismiss if you wish, me not yet being a member either of an association or SBA!

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## The Drone Ranger

> All of which you can dismiss if you wish, me not yet being a member either of an association or SBA!


Quite the opposite its people like yourself that the SBA needs to recruit so what you think is very very important.

As for smaller and more committed I'm not sure about that because the SBA is a charity who's stated aims include this which I have copied from the constitution and rules

3.2      A Brief History
3.2.1     The Founding of the Scottish Beekeepers Association
(Condensed from Mrs. Una A. Robertsons article Bees, Books and Beekeepers in The Scottish Beekeeper, June 1993.)
         The Minutes say: THE SCOTTISH BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION was founded on the 25th.May 1912, to unite the beekeepers of Scotland, for their mutual benefit, in a national confederation and to promote, by the concerted action of its members, the extension and general advancement of bee-keeping throughout the land.

That to me implies the widest possible membership  :Smile: 


In addition they stated to local associations


3.4.3     New Members
Every member of your Local Association should be encouraged to become a Full Member of the SBA.

We are moving toward the Centenary of the SBA but are we moving further away from its founding principles ??

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## gavin

Just a bit of background from someone who sat on the Executive for two years but is off it now.  There were voices raised (not many, but they were influential at the time) for a major hike in subscriptions.  Other professional organisations have high subscriptions so we should have too was the argument, without any great thought as to what the money should be spent on.  If Neonach's view is common (and I suspect that it is) then note should be taken of that.

Al, the webmaster, has been soldiering on bravely whilst making clear his intention to hand on the role to someone else.  Now this and other positions are being advertised.  Significant improvement in the web presence will only follow after enthusiastic new folk with specialist skills come on board.  A word of warning here - sometimes organisations try too hard to modernise without properly understanding what they are doing.  Look at the terrible mess the BBKA made of integrating their new web site with the old forum.

One delightful feature of this forum has been the interest it has generated in those far-flung places that the SBA was always struggling to reach.  That reaching out to the membership right across the country is something that needs to be strengthened.  The convention moves around the country but I have raised the possibility of there being other regional meetings, perhaps of the type that is designed for the local associations.  For those who don't know, on the morning of the annual Council meeting (to decide SBA policy) there is a Local Association secretaries meeting at which local association secretaries and their guests from their associations debate topics raised.  This is an excellent way of bringing about more local involvement, and the sharing of experience widely available in the country.  Sometimes the discussion could be focussed better on the needs of local associations but this really depends on the chair on the day.

I really like the idea of a regional insert with the magazine.  I get one with the Scottish Wildlife Trust magazine.  This could be something for the local area representatives who - in my view - could be used better.  A related point perhaps is that the Executive is large.  It should make more use of technology to conduct its own business and I think that it would make more progress if it was slimmed down, perhaps for some of the regular meetings.

If the magazine was hived off somehow the association would be seriously weakened and would have to re-invent one, just as the BBKA is doing with its newsletter so it seems (no personal experience as I'm not a member).  Bad move, thankfully highly unlikely.

On DL's points, I think that the SBA has made serious attempts to be democratic and seek the views of the membership although it is also driven to some extent by the views held by individuals on the Executive.  I remember a good open debate and votes on the SBA's attitude to the evolving Scottish Honeybee Health Strategy - which came out with an overwhelming majority in favour of the compulsory registration DL mentioned (I was one of the few voting against).  All such decisions come in the circumstances of the time and a year or two later the membership might think differently.  Of course, if you don't go to the meetings you wouldn't get to take part!  At the level of interest the forum attracts on a regular basis it will be a long time before this medium can be considered an alternative to in-person debates of that kind.

This isn't the thread to go off on a long tangent on global warming but there is good evidence already that Scotland's climate has more extremes of weather now that man is undoubtedly warming the planet with greenhouse gases.  Maybe the shift in mean temperature has not been deleterious to bees, but the increasing extremes of wind and wet are.

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## gavin

> We are moving toward the Centenary of the SBA but are we moving further away from its founding principles ??


In what way?  Simply by not encouraging enough LA members to be SBA members too?  We do ... and even the benefit of the free Compensation and Insurance cover alone justifies that if anyone hesitates. 

We don't demand that those in our beginners class also become SBA members, but encourage it.  I had a hard enough struggle getting the committee to agree to push the fee up to £20 to cover the £10 for ESBA membership!

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## Neils

As a member of both the BBKA and the SBA, here's my tuppence. Though I'll have to hold my hands up and say that in day to day life I have precious little contact with either organisation. In the case of the BBKA this is largely deliberate on their part, day to day stuff is the Local Association's remit and they're not interested in it. In the case of the SBA, well Bristol is a little more than _just_ South of Aberdeen but I do value my membership for the magazine and this website as much as anything else.

Regarding Beecraft, I actually think that the Scottish Beekeeper Magazine is better than Beecraft though I think they've been a little stabbed in the back via the BBKA's newsletter revamp which appears to be trying to muscle in on Beecraft's territory.  Also worth a mention that their Electronic version, in my opinion, is a complete train wreck, it was so bad that I cancelled my sub and asked for the paper version back as it's more flexible, go figure.  

The other problem I have with bee craft as a publication is that the more experienced I get, the less relevant I find the information within it. I'm already down to a subscription every other year as I found last year that much of the content in bee craft I already knew or could easily get from other sources. I don't need "here's how you do an artificial swarm" from my magazine when I can ask, and get an answer in seconds, on numerous forums and websites around the internet.

Gavin raises a valid point about "modernising" for the sake of doing so without giving consideration to what's being modernised and why it's being done, the BBKA website being a prime example of that and the electronic version of bee craft for that matter.

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## Neonach

Global warming is certainlya subject in its own right, but is nonethless relevant to the question of SBA membership.

SBA could do a lot worse than ally itself with bodies and projects that promote positive action in the face of global warming, but definitely not with the prophets of doom. 

Many people have become more aware of bees, or take an interest in beekeeping, or have in fact started to keep bees, because they see a healthy thriving bee population as both indispensible to and a key indicator of a healthy natural environment. They may not necessarily be able to articulate that clearly or act consistently with that understanding, but the concern is nonetheless real - as is the hope they can do something practical. They may see beekeeping as potentially part of a new liefstyle and modified (or rediscovered?) personal or family values which they feel will best promote the future of their children and the world as we know it.  Of course there are still many people who keep bees simply because it is fun, fascinating, relaxing or economically worthwhile. SBA could perhaps carry out a survey to learn more, and then work to get resources channeled accordingly. I would expect concern over climate change to be a very significant factor for many newcomers. As with all new ventures, there's excitement and enthusiasm and SBA should do its utmost to capture that and direct it to best effect. Opportunities to meet others beginners to share experiences, experts to learn from, so that is a growing, positive experience - and fun too! 

It goes without saying, surely, that SBA needs to connect direct members with local associations, and those who have contact first with local association with SBA.  Perhaps SBA could offer membership of local association as a bolt-on at a reduced amount, and vice-versa.

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## The Drone Ranger

> In what way?  Simply by not encouraging enough LA members to be SBA members too?  We do ... and even the benefit of the free Compensation and Insurance cover alone justifies that if anyone hesitates. 
> 
> We don't demand that those in our beginners class also become SBA members, but encourage it.  I had a hard enough struggle getting the committee to agree to push the fee up to £20 to cover the £10 for ESBA membership!


Thanks for the posts Gavin points well made all
 I suspect you are correct that the SBA is not ready for a jump into the 21st century technology.
How many commitee members are here on the forum debating the issue ??
I am sure you want the SBA to fulfill its mission to be an organisation which represents and includes the existing beekeepers in Scotland.
The magazine if it had an online version could be much more colourful and dynamic
The new Ed seems to be moving away from the letters to the editor arguments
Just as well really because of the timing issues replies to letters were 2 months later then the original
I have a beecraft subscription and an online one invaluable when you want to look something up
The previous editor resented some of my critisism of the mag and comparisons with Beecraft
His reply was such an innaccurate portrayal of Beecraft that their editor of that magazine wrote to Scottish Beekeeper correcting him
The beecraft editor also offered to freely disclose any experience they had in publishing and attracting contributors etc
As far as I know that offer was not explored
I understand the difficulty in getting the East of Scotland Beekeeping Assoc members to also take membership of SBA but should that not just come at a much discounted top up of say £5 Neonach has already identified this

I think discount vouchers in the mag and a good healthy bees available section are key
Product reviews or diy projects not reviews of Local Assoc meeting etc

THe new Ed had made progress but the magazine was better in the 1930's and 40's during the great depression and the second world war than it is even now

Regional insert yes please the conditions are so varied around the country that would be very helpful

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## The Drone Ranger

> Regarding Beecraft, I actually think that the Scottish Beekeeper Magazine is better than Beecraft   Also worth a mention that their Electronic version, in my opinion, is a complete train wreck, it was so bad that I cancelled my sub and asked for the paper version back as it's more flexible, go figure.  
> 
> The other problem I have with bee craft as a publication is that the more experienced I get, the less relevant I find the information within it. I'm already down to a subscription every other year as I found last year that much of the content in bee craft I already knew or could easily get from other sources. I don't need "here's how you do an artificial swarm" from my magazine when I can ask, and get an answer in seconds, on numerous forums and websites around the internet.


Nellie were you a subscriber to the Scottish Beekeeper mag when they used to print 5 page rants about GM crops
Its only recently the Editor has stopped 4 and 5 page long rants in favour of flooding the country with swarms

You will never have read anything written in that way in Beecraft

Would you welcome colour printing in the Scottish Beekeeper or is black and white better
How about a picture better than a thousand words (not if you can't print them it isn't)

Take your point about beginners articles but they do lots of other stuff
Both sides of the breeding for resistance argument for instance

Sorry don't mean to advertise their mag its just the production value and content is better.
Scottish beekeeper obviously has greater relevance to beekeeping in Scotland

Gavin for webmaster 1 vote(mine)

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## Neils

> Nellie were you a subscriber to the Scottish Beekeeper mag when they used to print 5 page rants about GM crops
> Its only recently the Editor has stopped 4 and 5 page long rants in favour of flooding the country with swarms


I saw the repeats on here I think.




> You will never have read anything written in that way in Beecraft


I don't actually want to sound too critical on Beecraft, it served me very well in my first year, the problem was in second year it was still serving first year beekeepers well and not really doing a huge amount new that I couldn't obtain by reading last year's copy. What was then interesting to me was an article here or there but that wasn't really justifying the subscription. I read an article here or there and skim others in Beecraft.  I just find that in terms of what I want, Scottish Beekeeper and the BBKA newsletters (prior and post revamp) serve me better than Bee Craft.




> Would you welcome colour printing in the Scottish Beekeeper or is black and white better
> How about a picture better than a thousand words (not if you can't print them it isn't)


It doesn't bother me, but I think perhaps I want something different from Scottish Beekeeper than you do. 





> Take your point about beginners articles but they do lots of other stuff
> Both sides of the breeding for resistance argument for instance


Granted, but they seem to have a heavy emphasis on beginner's beekeeping techniques. I'm not being critical of that and some of their supporting material is excellent, but I find it hard to justify £20 a year for 75%+ stuff I already know.  I'm not so much interested in the general beekeeping technique 101 anymore I want a publication that takes a step up from that point and in many respects the Scottish Beekeeper does provide that (amongst others)



> Sorry don't mean to advertise their mag its just the production value and content is better.
> Scottish beekeeper obviously has greater relevance to beekeeping in Scotland


I think here's the perfect place to have such a discussion to be perfectly honest and I won't argue with you over the production value or, depending what you want from a publication its content. Beecraft has a place for sure though I'm surprised at just how poor it's online version is when you compare it to a subscription to, for argument's sake, the Guardian which as an online publication experience is a million miles away for a 10th of the price.  That's the benchmark of any online publication that I've tried (and paid for).

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## The Drone Ranger

> It doesn't bother me, but I think perhaps I want something different from Scottish Beekeeper than you do. 
> ).


Nellie I've had articles printed in both the mags 
heres  how they differed
Beecraft read the article,said they were interested, edited and reformated it, resized photo's etc, reworded and massaged, then sent the reformatted version back to me for approval before going to print

Scottish Beekeeper took the article said they would print it stripped out all the photographs formatted it into the usual two collumns of text and went straight to print 
Needless to say it was a shadow of the original and hard to follow in places even for me and I wrote it.

Things might be better now but I could only ever submit a text only article to the Scottish beekeeper mag, and that discourages me, and I suspect people much better suited than me, from making the effort.

Hence they always seem to be struggling to fill the mag in recent years it was often little more than a collection of snips from the internet

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## Neils

Could be and maybe the SBA need to look at how they fund, and what they want from the SB.

There is a fundamental difference between the two. Beecraft you have to pay for, they need to deliver quality, SB comes with the subscription. Yes it should be interesting and be of a higher standard than a couple of sheets of A4, but there has to be a cost element involved in that too.  I was paying £20 a year for bee craft, I pay what? The same for my entire membership of SBA.

I don't know what they pay the editor of SB, but I'd hazard a guess that it's not a full time job while I'll also go out on a limb and suggest that bee craft must be paying a few editorial if not administrative staff to do the work to get the magazine published.

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## gavin

Like all SBA posts the editor gets no remuneration but only hassle from the disgruntled.

As I said, the magazine has been repeatedly discussed, including at meetings of the membership, and I think that the new editor needs some peace on that front.

He could perhaps benefit from a helpful team around him to share the various burdens including the kind of editing functions that DL described for Bee Craft.

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## gavin

> I saw the repeats on here I think.


LOL!  Yes you did, but the repeats were the condensed versions.  I'm cautious what I say now in case I'm accused of using the forum to air my own opinion too much, but the SBA lost a lot of respect in those years ... and at the same time polarised the membership.  Some loved the muck-stirring, others bemoaned the lack of clear thought.  It didn't have to be like that.  It is time to shed the negative attitude and move ahead, informed and well-argued.  I hope.  However the business that caused me to resign was essentially more of the same.  An inability to look at the facts and think about the reality rather than going on a gut reaction.  And even going with a scientist going on gut reaction too, what a total nonsense. 




> Gavin for webmaster 1 vote(mine)


Yeah, thanks DL.  I've made it plain that I'm not going back on the Executive while they are engaged in a wasteful and ill thought out venture with a scientist who doesn't know what he's doing.  I prefer to be out and therefore free to criticise.

Feel free to advertise Bee Craft by the way.  As long as it doesn't advertise imports  :Stick Out Tongue:   My subscription lapsed and I don't miss it greatly.

DL you are absolutely right about the quality of the Scottish Beekeeper over time.  It has had its ups and downs ... hopefully it is on the up again.  That depends on a willingness to reject substandard stuff and encourage better-quality pieces.

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## Jon

You got any stuff on ley lines?

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## gavin

No, I'll leave that to Roger.  Did have a hive affected by alien abduction once though  :Wink:

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## Neils

Crystals?

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## gavin

The secret power of the Pyramid Hive.

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## Neils

oooo.

It's got so ridiculous nowadays I'm surprised no-ones trying to push it.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I don't know what they pay the editor of SB, but I'd hazard a guess that it's not a full time job while I'll also go out on a limb and suggest that bee craft must be paying a few editorial if not administrative staff to do the work to get the magazine published.


Actually thats what they wrote to the previous SB editor about He was convinced they had a large full time staff he was very wrong  :Smile: 




> Like all SBA posts the editor gets no remuneration but only hassle from the disgruntled.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, the magazine has been repeatedly discussed, including at meetings of the membership, and I think that the new editor needs some peace on that front.
> 
> He could perhaps benefit from a helpful team around him to share the various burdens including the kind of editing functions that DL described for Bee Craft.


The previous editor in a reply to my moans said he edited the magazine after everything else in life had been attended to (presumably after the cat was put out for the night) 
I wasn't overly impressed he took the job because he wanted it not at gunpoint so it's not unreasonable to expect some commitment even from a volunteer.

The new ED is actually editing the mag which is great, there are more photo's etc but he needs a better vehicle than the one we have if advertisers and contributors are to appear regularily.
How would the Scottish Beekeeper magazine cope with an article on cell punching?? not well I think
How would Beecraft ?? 




> LOL!  Yes you did, but the repeats were the condensed versions.  I'm cautious what I say now in case I'm accused of using the forum to air my own opinion too much, but the SBA lost a lot of respect in those years ... and at the same time polarised the membership.  Some loved the muck-stirring, others bemoaned the lack of clear thought.  It didn't have to be like that.  It is time to shed the negative attitude and move ahead, informed and well-argued.  I hope.  However the business that caused me to resign was essentially more of the same.  An inability to look at the facts and think about the reality rather than going on a gut reaction.  And even going with a scientist going on gut reaction too, what a total nonsense. 
> 
> t
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, thanks DL.  I've made it plain that I'm not going back on the Executive while they are engaged in a wasteful and ill thought out venture with a scientist who doesn't know what he's doing.  I prefer to be out and therefore free to criticise.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey that guy aint so dumb tonto thinks 1.8mil of funding that will do nicely sir  :Smile: 
I hated the years of ranting and complained once every couple of years to be told I was unpatriotic ungrateful and a nuisance -- thats about right I thought

Beecraft--Now they are not writing about their own past editors and Bulgaria etc all the time it has really raised its game (I think)

Scottish Beekeeper A4 full colour ?? we can hope

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## Neils

> Actually thats what they wrote to the previous SB editor about He was convinced they had a large full time staff he was very wrong


 I didn't say large. If you tell me they don't have a full time editor and full time administrator then my flabber will be gasted for sure  :Smile:   And I dare say they aren't paying freelancers £230 per 1,000 word article which is the going rate for magazines like BeeCraft according to the NUJ.

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## gavin

Goodness, if the SB was similar (which it isn't) I could have afforded a *much* better car (or bicycle).  Now that we're talking cash, Bee Craft must be raking in maybe £0.5m annually on subscriptions alone (guessing off the top of the head on numbers of subscribers).  Plus advertising.  What does it do with all that cash if it isn't employing staff?  Can't cost *that* much to print and send the thing, can it?

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## gavin

> oooo.
> 
> It's got so ridiculous nowadays I'm surprised no-ones trying to push it.


Have you not noticed that some versions of TBHs are actually like inverted pyramids in cross-section?  I think where they have gone wrong is that cross-section isn't enough, it has to be the full 3D object.  And the right way up.  For me, that explains why some of the main proponents have such trouble with losing hives due to Varroa, they didn't get the shape quite right.

Bottom Bar Hives.  Got to be the way forward.

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## The Drone Ranger

The magazine is the shop window for SBA but not responsible for low membership numbers
If the SBA was the right package for beekeepers in Scotland they would join
What are the benefits ?
well there's insurance then there's the magazine 

For me that's about it

The vast majority of the SBA funds is spent on the Mag 

The production costs of the SBA magazine are probably higher than Beecraft per issue

If the poll results are anything to go by then there are either no SBA members on this forum or they don't care

When I suggest to people they might like to join the SBA they just say why??

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## Jimbo

As well as the Insurance and the magazine what about the education, tour speakers, annual conference, annual honey show plus Royal Highland Show and recently the SBA/BIBBA bee breeding course and morphometry day

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## Jon

The thread is getting dangerously near to this.

Maybe the SBA needs to provide wine and aqueducts for the membership

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## The Drone Ranger

> As well as the Insurance and the magazine what about the education, tour speakers, annual conference, annual honey show plus Royal Highland Show and recently the SBA/BIBBA bee breeding course and morphometry day


You guys are right I think there isn't a problem at all it's all in my mind
Me and the two people who voted in the poll anyway.

But the SBA can't claim to represent Scottish bee keepers just a small proportion of them

The much vaunted survey of Scottish beekeepers which was printed twice in the Scottish Beekeeper and once in Beecraft  took 10% of SBA membership into account. 
The membership I think is about 20% of actual beekeepers
So the survey included only 2% of Scottish Beekeepers 
I would say statistically unreliable at best 
I'll probably be saving the £25 from now on as well




> The thread is getting dangerously near to this.


 Don't laugh
The Scottish Nationalist won the Election with the same campaign

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## gavin

> You guys are right I think there isn't a problem at all it's all in my mind
> Me and the two people who voted in the poll anyway.


Indecision stopped me from voting.  Until every beekeeper signs up there is possible problem.  The organisation just has to make a good job of selling itself and making sure that it is doing the right things.  If someone could tell me whether the SBA has a higher or lower proportion of Scottish beekeepers in its membership than equivalent organisations elsewhere then it might be clearer if the SBA is attracting too few members.




> But the SBA can't claim to represent Scottish bee keepers just a small proportion of them
> 
> The much vaunted survey of Scottish beekeepers which was printed twice in the Scottish Beekeeper and once in Beecraft  took 10% of SBA membership into account.


It was carefully designed by professional statisticians and deliberately sought a stratified sample in the best way they could manage.  No protocol is perfect of course.




> The membership I think is about 20% of actual beekeepers
> So the survey included only 2% of Scottish Beekeepers 
> I would say statistically unreliable at best 
> I'll probably be saving the £25 from now on as well
> 
>  Don't laugh
> The Scottish Nationalist won the Election with the same campaign


The usual assumption is that about half of beekeepers are members.  Do you really think that is so wrong?  I just don't know.  I do know however that if a political party wins an election so handsomely, and while currently in power, they must be doing something the electorate approve of.

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## The Drone Ranger

Your probably right Gavin I don't think there are many SBA members on here .

What I have discovered is that I treat the SBA more like a magazine subscription with some insurance thrown in.

I'm not much interested in conventions, Guest speakers, meetings etc.

I only joined because I felt it was important for all beekeepers to be part of the national organisation and help support the SBA by at least subscribing.

Over the years I have had my doubts because some of the SBA stances and policies (already mentioned a few) are diametrically opposed to how I feel.

The difficulty is that by remaining a member I am part of the head count. 
That gives weight to things like demands for compulsory registration (don't worry, I complained plenty at the time, ask Ian Craig)

The hope always was that things would change and as new members arrived new thinking would also emerge.

I was wrong, and most of the other bee keepers I know were right,the SBA is really just a Social club for beekeepers

The real action is all taking place at local association level.

Regards magazines about beekeeping there are others and the subs are no higher

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## gavin

Hi DL

That is a pity, but the SBA does do a broad range of things and some of them should interest everyone.

Yes, the magazine and the insurance are a big part of the interest in joining.  Only a small fraction of the membership go to meetings of one kind or another.  The coming centenary convention should be a cracker though - I think that the speakers are still provisional but they are really good quality speakers and one of them is one of the very best researchers internationally.

OK, you may hold different opinions to those the SBA has come out with.  Me too.  But an engaging communicator like yourself could express them within the organisation and possibly make a difference.

The vote in favour of compulsory registration was a surprise and is now irrelevant.  The Scottish Government didn't think that they should go down this line so we now have a Scottish add-on to BeeBase that is collecting up voluntary registrations.

One thing that the SBA does and the local associations don't (and I'm not entirely sure that this is right) is speak to government.  Help guide policy on bee health problems.  Education.  That kind of thing.

If you are not satisfied with what the SBA offers, what would you like to see done differently?  Have you any suggestions for folk like Phil McAnespie?  Phil would probably welcome your comments and does read the forum, at least sometimes.  If there is useful discussion here I'll certainly point him to it.  Maybe he'll even take part.

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## nemphlar

I'm employed by what might be considered a global company and I'm continually surprised by the parochial attitude in Scotland where tiny schisms prevail, surely we need to toughen up and accept controversial opinions and the national association is the place for these discussions to take place. If I have a problem I would like to have the opinion of the most experienced/ knowledgeable beekeepers available suffering conditions similar to mine.

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## Phil McAnespie

Hi Gavin and All,
Due to a huge beekeeping commitment at the Flower Show in Ayr I have just had the opportunity of looking at this thread.  Gavin is right that I just get the opportunity from time to time to see the forum and occasionally take part.  This is not lack of interest but unfortunately lack of time.
The comments I am presently writing I do without actually pouring over the previous items in minute detail but having gained a flavour of the comments made.

As Gavin has commented the SBA does undertake a broad range of activities some of which I am sure will interest everyone.  The SBA as far as I understand was not initiated to take over the role of local associations and do their job for them.  I understand that it was brought about to have a body which could encompass these associations and take them and their ideas forward to those in higher authority and develop the body as a whole to grow.  I suppose this is a little like the various local association committees which we have.  They are meant to try and take the various associations forward and help them to grow and develop.

As a consequence we do require to have members who are willing to get involved and bring fresh ideas to the table.  I actually do agree that we have, as an organisation, got to look at what we are presently doing and see how we can improve on it.  One of the requests I made to the SBA executive when I became president was that we have an exec meeting where we actually spend the time only looking at ways we can take the association forward and come forward with new ideas rather than that of a normal exec meeting.  I appreciate all that has gone before and all the excellent work done but I also understand that we either move forward or backwards as there is no standing still in any organisation.  As such I welcome any ideas and suggestions that are feasible to take our organisation forward to a different level of activity and standing.

However in saying this we have to remember that progression can come at a cost.  Not only financially but in time and effort by local association and exec members.  The question has to be asked, are there members out there willing to come forward and take on the challenge?

Let me site one or two circumstances.  There are three executive positions which have been advertised in the last magazine.  Treasure, General Secretary and Webmaster.  Has anyone applied for these positions or willing to do so?  Please contact Bron Wright or myself and we would be delighted to speak with you.
At the last Highland Show Willie Taylor stepped into the breach and put on the display for the SBA.  During the show we were able to recruit Peter Mathews to take on the vacant position of Promotion of Beekeeping.  This position will require to be confirmed by the membership at the AGM and I trust that this will take place as Peter and the committee which he has formed will do an excellent job I am sure in the future.

As far as the magazine is concerned, I believe Nigel Southworth  is doing an excellent job in bringing about changes which he feels will help develop the magazine from that which he inherited.  He does this, as Gavin says, for no monthly remuneration and also in his own time.  Yes it is easy to compare various magazines and editorials and differentiate between them. However this is only of value when the background of these magazines are the same.  As far as Beecraft is concerned there is a larger editorial staff involved and also a greater pool of writers.  The cost is only for the magazine and the readership subscription is far larger affording the opportunity of a larger size colour magazine.  The SBA magazine does not have this priviledge and although we have looked at the prospect of an A4 colour magazine the cost at present is prohibitive.  The SBA presently has a membership of about 1400-1450 members.  As such it is difficult to get organisations to pay for colour adverts and pictures for a relatively small readership.  Maybe in the future if members or advertisers were willing to pay more this could be revisited.

In respect of the membership, like all organisations it varies from year to year.  The population of Scotland is about 1/10 that of England and Wales.  As such the BBKA is not in percentage terms much larger than the SBA.  Other factors come into play such as density of population and weather.  Some of the associations in England are as large as the SBA but in a far smaller area.  This allows greater opportunity of meeting up with other beekeepers, disseminating information and equipment.  
In respect of the BBKA I have to take my hat off to them in respect of the work that they are doing for beekeeping in general. They are a large organisation and obviously have the lobby and money behind them to take ideas forward.  However a lot of what they do comes about because of sponsorship, adopt a hive scheme and various other money raising schemes.  At present the SBA is not involved in this way and maybe we have to consider this for the future.

Yes there are many ways that we have to try to improve and hopefully these will come sooner rather than later.  However let me finish by commenting on some of the things which have been done in recent years.  We do have a greater standing and communication with the Scottish Government in the Healthy Bee Strategy.  There have been extremely beneficial talks taking place there by the SBA and Bee Farmers which at present is bringing about a safer environment as far as EFB and AFB is concerned.  The Scottish Government has allocated money to assist beekeepers in education, disease diagnoses and on the field bee inspectors.  There is a strong commitment to improve the health of our colonies and the expertise of our beekeepers and produce in the future new young beekeepers who are well equipped to accept the challenges of beekeeping in this century.

I appreciate that not all members are interested in the many functions which are undertaken by the SBA and are there predominately for the insurance.  (By the way try pricing £2,000,000 Public and Product Liability Insurance and let me know how much change you get out of your SBA subscription.)
However I would encourage you to get interested and see for yourself what the SBA does and can do for you. Consider the education programme and have your eyes opened to a realm of beekeeping you never knew existed and also consider the opportunities which are available to serve on the executive and come and help bring about the changes you desire.

I apologise if this has in any way been a rant but as I said at the beginning I was not intending this to be a reply to all comments.  Please contact me by email with any suggestions which you feel would help take forward the SBA and also suggestions as to how it can be achieved. I am definitely interested in any ideas which I can take forward to the exec in the meeting where these matters in particular will be discussed.
Phil McAnespie
President SBA
email: philmcanespie@supanet.com

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## gavin

Many thanks Phil for taking the time to reply to many of the points raised here and give your rather informed perspective on the organisation.  I greatly appreciate it and I'm sure that the others do too.

To echo Nemphlar's points, frustrations and differences from previous years shouldn't be driving people's actions now.  What matters is whether the organisation is doing the right things now, and whether we have a leadership that is prepared to consider how the organisation can evolve, as it has to do.  We do have such a team at the helm, Phil the President and Bron his deputy, and a new magazine editor, so this is a great time to be looking forward rather than back.  If you have constructive suggestions for improvements, let them be known.

Gavin

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## The Drone Ranger

A friend who I told I have just left the SBA replied

Oh no did you jump or were you pushed??

So heres what I told them:-

No I just left

It seems the SBA is a sort of beekeeping equivalent of the TUC
Largely concerned with organising the Local Beekeeping Associations
It does this by organising conferences lectures honey shows etc.
It sees itself as an organisation comprised of mainly activists

In the same way a trade unionist would not join the TUC as an individual
rather than as part of a union,it doesn't make sense to join the SBA on
that basis either. 
Individuals views will not be canvassed  only activists in the
organisation will be heard.
Nothing wrong with that as long as its made clear before joining

Up till now I have wrongly thought it was an umbrella organisation for
all beekeepers particularly ones who are unable, or find it difficult,
to become members of a local association 

That's why I joined and paid my subscription although only making use of
the magazine subscription and the insurance cover. Being truthful the
magazine has been pretty poor over the years.
I have no interest in meetings conferences honey shows etc.

Most of the Stances the SBA have adopted conflict with my own opinions
so it doesn't make sense to help fund and validate them by continued
membership 

These include - compulsory registration of all beekeepers, breeding for
resistance, Gm crops, Amm Bibba backing, global warming, flooding the
country with feral bees,the list goes on and on.
So it seems do I, but it has no effect,its water off a ducks back to the activists
who consider they are the only real members of the SBA.
I tend to think (like Churchill) "they also serve who only sit and pay"

So I'm off to pastures new where I hope I will have less to moan about  :Smile:

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## Trog

Droney, as far as I am aware, not one of these things you listed in the penultimate paragraph is SBA policy.  The articles in the magazine are submitted by individuals, some of whom have some very odd bees in their respective bonnets.  Things suggested for discussion in Council are put forward by individuals; this doesn't mean the SBA exec's trying to promote them.  

This forum was set up with the approval of the SBA exec; the exec represented the views of small hobby beekeepers to the government during the foul brood emergency (and still does now that it's hopefully on its way out); the SBA has managed to prevent excessive legislation being applied to hobby beekeepers when it comes to selling our honey; there's education for those who want it; good insurance deals thrashed out - can you get better insurance on your own?

I've not come across any activists in the current set-up (can't speak for the past), just folk who are prepared to give up a lot of time to help folk enjoy our craft in whatever way they choose (be that producing high-quality stuff for shows, making a bit of pocket money from selling bees and honey, breeding bees of one type or another, or just sitting by the hive admiring the bees coming and going), without being over-regulated by either government or the EU.  You only have to look at nonsense such as passports for all horses, regardless of whether they ever leave their field, the salmonella-in-eggs fiasco, etc., to get some idea of what life would be like for us beekeepers if the SBA wasn't standing up for us.

Hope you find this informative and helpful.  I'll pop back later to chat but have some work to do!  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

sorry by activist I mean people taking an active role attending meetings etc.

The difference between a football player and a football supporter

(not much in Dundee United's case)

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## Trog

:Confused: Ah, Droney, that's something quite different.  Changes your meaning entirely.

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## The Drone Ranger

You do know that the SBA called on the Scottish Government to introduce COMPULSORY registration of all beekeepers and tried to have that imposed on all beekepers members and non members

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## gavin

> (not much in Dundee United's case)


Have you seen the Dundee United support?!  There wouldn't be enough paramedics around if they started trying to kick a ball (and I include myself in that category).

The registration thing wrong-footed me at the time, it was suggested to the floor by the president at the time (now retired) when the SBA's response the the Health Strategy consultation was being discussed, the assembled crowd said yes, we would like that, and the Executive went with that as it has to do.  At the meeting with the SG the senior lady running the show made it plain that they wanted a voluntary registration and there was very little more said as I recall.  One meeting, one decision, not pursued with any vigour, not a big issue.  I was against it as I worried that there would be some people who would react against it (like you!) but the members - at a time of little in the way of an active bee inspection service - wanted more. I can't imagine that the vote would go the same way now.  If a few folk spoke from the heart from the floor the vote would have been very different I'm sure.

Beekeeping elsewhere in Europe is a much more professional thing with more checks and balances.  More like livestock farming rather than keeping a budgie.  In the UK we are miles from that.  Perhaps that is no bad thing, but that is part of the equation.

None of this seems worth leaving the SBA over - why not try out the Perth convention next month?  Should be good talks, latest research from Giles Budge, plenty of trade stands to browse.  A friendly atmosphere (usually anyway, can't promise completely), someone will say something daft and make folk hot under the collar but that's beekeepers for you.

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## The Drone Ranger

Gavin it reminds me of when an interviewer a few years ago asked Tommy Docherty  if he would ever consider the Scottish Managers Job

"manager??" he said "bloody hell the way they're playing I should get a game "

Actually on the compulsory registration bit.
The SBA submission to the Scottish Government consultation wasn't printed in the magazine.
It was quietly mentioned and a link to the SBA website was provided.
When I read it I wrote to the Scottish Beekeeper mag complaining
That letter wasn't printed instead Ian Craig rang me at home to ask what the problem was?
I gave him my objections I suppose the idea was to avoid embarassing questions in the magazine.

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## gavin

There you are then.  I voted no.  Why?

- organisations should never be complacent (I'm not saying this one is)
- I have a sneaky feeling that there are too many new beekeepers not joining up
- I want to keep Drone Ranger sweet

In no particular order.

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## The Drone Ranger

Gavin I don't think I should say any more now, as once my subscription runs out it won't be renewed

I'll leave you with these thoughts which the exec might like consider.

Sure it's important to replace the webmaster and any other empty posts but in another 100 years that will be all forgotten.

I have a small collection (just a few years worth) of early Scottish Beekeepers from the years 1933 /34 and 1944 /45 
Students of beekeeping and social history can learn a lot from those magazines and they are a permanent record of Scottish Beekeeping in those difficult times

One local association boasted 1500 members, travelling bee houses made from old caravans, Dozens of adds in every issue of the magazine for equipment, bees, queens.
Those queens imported from all over europe and elsewhere.
The prices paid, the exagerated advertising claims 
Fantastic gems waiting to be discovered.

Some time long after we are all dead and gone ,interested people wondering what Scottish beekeeping in the second millenium was like, will read the last 10 years of the magazine and frankly I dread to think what their impression will be 
Perhaps they will think that the Scottish beekeeping scene was dominated by ranting lunatics or that GM crops were on everyone's lips.
Most beekeepers were Irritable intollerant opinionated I really do not know

What future generations definitely will check is what the Scottish Beekeeper magazine was reporting and filling its pages with during its 100 year anniversary
(Which is next year.)
They will also probably look at the membership stats and make judgements about the health of beekeeping in Scotland

Perhaps more serious researchers will read the minutes of the Executives meetings or trancripts of what was said at conferences but I seriously doubt that

So at the end of the day what the current SBA membership will largely be gauged on is not the meeting notes or the forum posts or anything else other than the one thing that provides a clear continuous thread throughout the whole history of the organisation and that is the Magazine
It would be nice if that legacy was one all beekeepers in Scotland could be proud of.

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## GRIZZLY

As chairman of South west of Scotland Beekeepers Ass'n I have tried to encourage ALL membership to join the SBA.To say it is difficult is an understatement.Why? Because it is difficult to define the benefits of such a membership.To say you receive a free magazine is hardly going to prompt joining.SO what are the real benefits?.Perhaps someone can help me out here.My own personal belief is that at the very least ,a National Association representing Scottish beekeepers is necessary to at least attract the attention of National government.The sad reality is that whils't it calls itself a "NAIONAL" association it only represents a minority of Scottish beekeepers as do local associations.More beekeepers don't belong to local organisations than do.I think it's sad that people like DR and Gavin are so dispirited that resignation seems to be the only option.

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## Trog

Well, the included insurance and compensation cover is a big selling point.  Anyone with bees should be a member, if only for the insurance.  It only takes one ratty colony to sting someone's child and (these days) you're bound to be sued.  House insurance will not cover your bees!

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## marion.orca

Well I'm a " newby " and I've just joined, though not voted on this poll I have to admit. As I saw in a previous post, the cost for just the remainder of the year [ 4 months ] made me at first hesitate and I did consider waiting until 2012 to join. But, as I'm hoping [ fingers crossed ]  to be able to move my hive nearer home to facilitate winter feeding, the hive would be more visible than at present, so the deciding factor was the insurance cover. I'd rather them be covered than not [ though they still will be in a safe place ] and hopefully I will have no need of the insutance cover - better safe than sorry, and peace of mind for myself. And I'm looking forward to my first magazine too !
Just for the record - you definitely can get stung through latex gloves - the little darlings were a bit tetchy one day and decided they weren't too keen on my bee-keeping skills so went for the attack whilst I was holding the frame. Dropping it was NOT  an option - biting my lip whilst asking them to stop was !

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## gavin

> I think it's sad that people like DR and Gavin are so dispirited that resignation seems to be the only option.


Just a wee clarification.  I'm still a member and still encourage every beekeeper in Scotland to join.  The benefits of membership are well worth the subscription, individually and collectively.  The voice the SBA has in government is part of that, and the benefits of the insurance and compensation plus the magazine more of it.  My personal resignation was from an Executive which made a decision that I could not support and which I wished to be free to openly criticise in public.  Such things happen in organisations, I can't expect everyone to share my clarity of thought on scientific and technical matters, especially when they have been drip-fed nonsense for many years!  DR's frustrations are up to him.  I share some of them, but I don't think that he is making sufficient allowance for the fact that the SBA is and will stay an organisation run by enthusiastic amateurs.  Yes, some things could be improved.  Try to help the process then, don't walk away.  These things take time.

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## The Drone Ranger

I feel there is no point in me financing an organisation that doesn't represent my views

By the way my wife works for a horse magazine which doesn't have a bigger circulation than Scottish Beekeeper.

100 pages, full colour, laminated covers, printing cost per issue 82p 

When people say the magazine can't improve that's just incredible to me.

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## gavin

Maybe you should sample the wider activities of the organisation before being so certain that it doesn't represent your views?  And if it doesn't why not engage more and show that there are members who are fed up with the image portrayed by the magazine in the years since Mr McArthur took over?  Help the new editor develop the magazine back to something that could make the members proud?

The current subscription (with that insurance and compensation cover) costs the price of the jars of honey you can get from 2-3 super frames, or 1/6 the common price of a 5-frame nuc, or 1/10 the price of a full colony of bees (without the box!).  And also a small fraction of my usual spend when I visit the beekeeping supplier's shop.

You can see that I'm not going to just let you walk away .....

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...  And if it doesn't why not engage more and show that there are members who are fed up with the image portrayed by the magazine  ...


I haven't followed all of this, so I might be missing the point of the discussion, but
(a) I can't vote on this because I don't know what the growth figures are;
(b) I rather like the magazine.  I've only just joined the SBA and read my first issue from cover to cover.  Magazines don't have to be just eye candy.
(c) But I hate the SBA website.  It's clumsy, hard to navigate, and not very pretty - I think it it will benefit from having some eye candy here.
Kitta

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## gavin

Hi Kitta

Great to see your comments.  A little history may help.

The magazine was an excellent organ for its time perhaps 20 years ago.  Nigel S has only recently taken it on and things are changing.  Perhaps 5-20 years ago it was used far too much to portray the views of the editor at the time, and they alienated some of the membership and gave a negative impression of the organisation.  You may have seen some of the afters in the exchanges on here between me and the one banned member who was that editor.

It is definitely improving now and I'm a bit surprised that DL feels this is a good time to abandon the SBA.

As for the website, Al produced the current design of the website many many years ago.  For a couple of years the SBA had a new, more modern website but the webmaster left the organisation in frustration I think, and took the website down as he did so.  Al was persuaded to reinstate the old website so that the SBA has a presence and has continued to look after it on a care and maintenance basis while a new long term webmaster was sought.  There was a person identified to take on this role, but I think that this hasn't worked out.  Now the SBA is looking for a new volunteer to develop the site.  There was an advert in a recent issue to appeal for volunteers for this position and for the General Secretary as Bron is now the Vice-President.  So yes, the website could be more modern but there are reasons for that.  If there is anyone reading this who would like either of these unpaid and under-appreciated positions, do let Phil or Bron know.

Gavin

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## The Drone Ranger

"although we have looked at the prospect of an A4 colour magazine the cost at present is prohibitive"

The president of the SBA has said it so it must be true

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## gavin

At last!  You have a good reason to leave the SBA ... the President said that an A4 colour magazine would cost too much!  

 :Stick Out Tongue: 

On the magazine, what is the issue really - the format?  The content?  The nature page?  The impression given of the organisation?  The impression the magazine gave a few years ago when others were in charge?  Kitta and others before her have said that they quite like it as it is now.  I could dig out figures when this was discussed before but it seems like we are running a low-cost magazine which actually does meet what most members want, in particular a monthly means of keeping in touch.  As I recall the option of dropping some (or even half) the issues to allow a different format was not a popular one.

You mentioned 82p per copy for printing.  OK, at 12 issues per year, and preparing for posting (packeting) and the postage costs themselves (what, 70p per copy? I'm guessing) that could eat up £18 of the £25.  So, a few pound rise in the subscription to keep the show on the road and ... you would have an even better reason to leave.

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## Jimbo

Hi DR,
You say the SBA don't represent your views. What are your views? You might find some people who are still in the SBA may have similar views and if they were known maybe change can be made.
On the magazine. I feel there is a big improvement since the change of editor. Our association had a good debate on the format of the magazine. Everything was discussed from the format, size, cost, electronic version, comparison to other publications etc. In the end at the vote of members there was an overwhelming majority on keeping it as it is.

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## The Drone Ranger

Gavin 

Your maths will be right when the mag has 100 pages and full colour A4. 

I was going to check the membership stats for you but I run across this letter in the Feb 2005 issue which you might like from Feb 2005
img005.jpg

this less entertaining one from Nov 2005
img004.jpg

By the way most magazines pay their way based largely on advertising not subs

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## madasafish

> I haven't followed all of this, so I might be missing the point of the discussion, but
> (a) I can't vote on this because I don't know what the growth figures are;
> (b) I rather like the magazine.  I've only just joined the SBA and read my first issue from cover to cover.  Magazines don't have to be just eye candy.
> (c) But I hate the SBA website.  It's clumsy, hard to navigate, and not very pretty - I think it it will benefit from having some eye candy here.
> Kitta


Hmm
Kitta
You don't know how lucky you are. The SBA website is wonderful compared to the BBKA one. The SBA forum ? About 20 years ahead of the BBKA who are regressing..

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Al was persuaded to reinstate the old website so that the SBA has a presence and has continued to look after it on a care and maintenance basis while a new long term webmaster was sought. ... So yes, the website could be more modern but there are reasons for that.   ...
> Gavin





> Hmm
> ... The SBA website is wonderful compared to the BBKA one. ...


Thanks for providing some history, Gavin.

I apologise for my rudeness.  As Al isn't a web designer and taking care of the website in his spare time, he's doing a good job.

Yes, Madasafish, I think the BBKA site is a bit cluttered - and that despite having used a professional web designer.

Kitta

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## Jon

> despite having used a professional web designer.


I heard it cost £15,000 and in the process they effectively killed off an excellent forum.

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## gavin

> Gavin 
> 
> Your maths will be right when the mag has 100 pages and full colour A4. 
> 
> I was going to check the membership stats for you but I run across this letter in the Feb 2005 issue which you might like .....


Excellent SB letters DL.  That second letter writer is exactly the kind of person we need in the SBA (and the first one too, but Donald's commitment isn't in doubt).  

Incidently, I seem to recall that the Executive were preparing to revisit and debate the organisation's attitude to GM crops.  The time seems ripe for a more neutral attitude to the issue.  There was one particularly disappointing meeting when they agreed to re-start a lapsed subscription to an anti-GM campaigning organisation (its main function seemed to be to call for a 5-year freeze about a decade ago to allow time for more research), and that cannot be right for an organisation that aspires to hold together a membership with a broad range of views.

So - Executive members (there must be some reading) - are we going to have a debate on this (magazine? forum?) prior to asking the members at the next council meeting whether or not the SBA should be seen as an anti-GM campaigning organisation?

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## Neils

I still don't think it's that clear cut whether the website or the magazine.  When it comes to the magazine, what is its primary purpose?  To be perfectly honest I don't want or need another publication full of articles along the line of "it's August you should be..." I've already let my sub to bee craft lapse, the BBKA news letter is starting to muscle in on the same area and by time they come through the letter box I've already done my reading up and am doing all the things that need to be done anyway.  Can the magazine be improved? Of course it can but I'm more interested in the content than the format. I'd personally like to see a lot more information around what the SBA is doing, coverage of courses, workshops and, dare I say it, I like the interviews. With a new editor I'm prepared to give him some time to settle in and put his mark on it.

I like this part of the SBA web presence, though I'm duty bound to say that, at the moment the only real advantage of the main SBA site is that it presumably cost a good deal less than the BBKA one to achieve the same thing.  But again, what is the purpose of the SBA site? Does it re-invent the wheel by trying to be all things to all people and essentially duplicate excellent, pre-existing websites, when it comes to technique? Edinburgh Beekeepers and the Dave Cushman spring immediately to mind although there are others. Should it perhaps concentrate more on pushing the Benefits of the SBA itself? Its education programme, more information on what it is campaigning on currently etc?

Personally I'd rather that the SBA was a pro-beekeeping campaigning organisation rather than an Anti-GM one. The two needn't be mutually exclusive but if anti-GM is the main thrust then I think somewhere along the line a sense of perspective has been lost.  If, in the course of promoting beekeeping, that it is felt, based on current evidence, that an anti-GM stance is prudent then I think that basis needs to be made clear. I'm certainly not pro-GM, but I don't actually have any honest objection to it from a beekeeping perspective other than a vague wooly notion that I don't really like the sound of it so if there's something more concrete out there that forms a basis of "my" organisation campaigning against it then I'd like that basis to spelled out so I can look at it in more detail and draw my own conclusions.

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## The Drone Ranger

The new editor has fixed the problem of endless rants about things only marginally connected to beekeeping thank goodness.

I hope we don't go back to printing word for word accounts of local association meeting notes

The letters and interviews are very interesting but I still think there is a need for the month by month beekeeping articles which Eric McArthur has made a great job of producing over the recent months.

On subjects like GM and imidacloraprid I would rather have both sides concisely presented instead allowing it to take the whole magazine over as it did in the past.

I do still think the SBA when considering the future format of the magazine should revisit production costs and values but also take into account that no publisher of any magazine would expect balance the books on subscriptions alone.

Advertising is the major revenue stream and that comes from improved content including product reviews , different hive types , treatments etc.
With the growth in beekeeping there a many more manufacturers and suppliers competing for business than ever before

Reader numbers are also very important to advertisers and the more magazine subscribers the greater the potential so the magazine needs broad appeal to all beekeepers.
Costs of production / unit reduce as print runs increase so achieving membership growth is vitally important .

In short the magazine should not be seen as a cost the SBA bears, but in fact a net contributor to its funding if properly managed.

At the heart of the matter though remains the question 

*Is the SBA an organisation who's primary purpose is to serve local associations,OR, is the SBA an organisation for individual beekeeper's to join which gives them a voice.?*

Currently it seems the former purpose is the primary one and that mitigates strongly against membership growth.

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## The Drone Ranger

Anyone read Beecraft this month and looked at the Local association membership numbers ??

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## Trog

I don't receive Beecraft; can you summarise?

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## The Drone Ranger

> I don't receive Beecraft; can you summarise?


Yorkshire beekeeping assoc. in 2010 = 1310 members

List of 24 associations with % growth of between 100% and 1038% between years 1997 and 2010

Pam Gregory reviews David Heaf's book "The bee - friendly beekeeper" 
Her comments on "live and let die" beekeeping are very sensible.

You should get a subscription on the go £25 a year( there is none of the SBA renewal is January so it will cost you £25 for 2 months nonsense)

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Yes, some things could be improved.  Try to help the process then, don't walk away.  These things take time.





> ... but the webmaster left the organisation in frustration I think, and took the website down as he did so ...


Yup. I now understand how that webmaster must have felt.  I tried to help and believe that I could have, but eventually left in dismay.  Im now sadder but wiser.
Kitta

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## Easy beesy

There's been a lot of comparison between Beecraft and the Scottish magazine on here, but should it not be between the beekeepers news as that is the mag distributed as part of the BBKA membership?  Until recently this too was b&w on cheap(er) paper. It has recently been revamped - for the better in my opinion. The anatomy inserts are my particular favourite. I help with our new beekeepers and often find the articles useful to show/ discuss with new beeks especially when weather is inclement. I have yet to receive my first copy of Scottish mag so I'll reserve my judgement til I've tried it. BTW subscription to either BBKA or SBA is still cheaper than regularly buying most 'hobby' type magazines on the market and you get the benefit of insurance - a bargain IMHO.

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## Trog

> . BTW subscription to either BBKA or SBA is still cheaper than regularly buying most 'hobby' type magazines on the market and you get the benefit of insurance - a bargain IMHO.


Hear, hear!  (And you get the unseen benefits of the SBA fighting for hobby beekeepers throughout Scotland ..)

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## Phil McAnespie

I am sure that Gavin will be delighted that at long last one of the exec is on the forum.  As I have said before, for me it is not lack of interest but lack of time.  From my point of view, if someone would email me about a thread which you would like an exec opinion on, I would be delighted to try and reply as soon as possible.

I appreciate that it is not possible to be all things to all people and the SBA is no exception.  I was drawing an analogy on Saturday that I saw the SBA in a similar vein to the Church.  It is a body of people and these people meet together at local churches (L/A Associations).  The buildings are called churches but in fact the church is this body of people who meet in this building.

I understand that some people will possibly not appreciate the analogy however it answers some of the previous comments that the SBA exec seem to pay more attention to L/A rather than the members.
I do believe that our members are the most important part of our organisation.  I also take on board the point that we should really let people know why we are important as an organisation and what we offer.
For a simple example I have already looked at the situation of the Bee a Beekeeper Leaflet and we are getting this revamped to reflect the modern day image we should be portraying so that those who are interested in beekeeping can see what we are about.
So get in touch with me and let me know what is important to you as a member and what you feel that the SBA should be portraying to others.

In respect of the magazine, it is true that it uses a fair proportion of the subscription and I appreciate that if we had more advertising then that would not be the case.  However when the copy numbers are relatively small it is difficult to get advertisers to pay good money.  They are looking for a return and that is where the larger volume magazines have the benefit.
I also agree that it would be great to have an A4 magazine full of colour but again the cost is prohibitive and there are other magazines which fulfill this function.  The other advantage that these magazines have is that they are able to get a lot of good copy.

This brings me on to a subject where all you beekeepers could be really helpful.  Many of you will have some considerable experience in beekeeping or are able to write an interesting article.  How about doing this for the SBA magazine and flooding our editor with good up to date copy.  It is very easy to criticise the SBA about the magazine but have you actually tried to engender interesting copy for it.  
The editor has to try very hard to get good copy every month and I know that he would be delighted to receive so much more from all our members.  If there are beekeeping subjects which you find interesting or feel that we should cover better then write about it.   If you can’t do it why not suggest to someone you know can and get them to submit an article.
I have already asked some other members personally to do this and I trust that someone here will rise to the challenge.

As far as the SBA is concerned I informed those present at the meeting on Saturday that the exec were going to have a meeting in March to look at the way forward.  I asked then that if people had sensible suggestions as to where we as an organisation should be going to get in touch with me.  I am not really interested in people trying to beat a political or GM drum.  I agree that some of these matters are important but what I am really looking for are ideas to put the SBA on the map and give it a higher profile.
The BBKA came up with the idea of the Adopt a Hive Scheme and although they have to pay a lot for a company to run it, they are taking in a fair amount of cash for the organisation.  This cash they can use for many different purposes.
This is only one example of what can be done by people coming up with ideas and I am sure that someone out there must have equally good ideas.


As far as the SBA is concerned Gavin gave a very fair summation of some of the work done by it and facilities organised for it’s members.  If all these facilities are of no interest to you and you just wish to  keep and work with your bees then it is difficult to suggest how the SBA facilities can interest you. 
However I think that being honest with yourself is one of the finest attributes someone can possess.

If you can look at all the work that the SBA does on behalf of it’s members including not only the magazine, insurance, education etc but regular meetings with the Scottish Government and the Bee Health Strategy, meetings with the Food Standard Agency, regular meetings with other National Associations at CONBA, meetings with the National Diploma of Beekeeping members and arranging education programmes by them, meetings with the EU at Brussels etc etc and still feel that we as an organisation are not working for our members then being honest with yourself is not one of your finest attribute.

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