# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Do you use Icing Sugar as part of your IPM?

## Neils

Just out of interest.

I used to use it religiously as a low impact "non chemical" treatment but I've become less convinced that it is that effective, nor that is necessarily as low impact as often assumed, although This study and a few others suggests that concern is probably an over-reaction on my part.

Finding proper figures with regards to the efficacy of icing sugar knocking down mites seems harder to come by, lots of assertions that it is or isn't effective, but I'm not seeing a lot of hard evidence to back it up either way.

While I do keep icing sugar handy for other reasons i've tended in recent years to lean more towards drone brood culling if I feel that a mid season action is required and otherwise use Thymol post honey harvest and Oxalic Acid over winter.

So just wondering what other people's thoughts around it are.

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## Pete L

There is some research which say it is not effective, never even tried it myself, so cannot really say.

There is a bit below on RO's site, but expect you may of seen this Neil.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powd...y-work-part-1/
And this...
http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20090217_5

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## Phil Moss

It doesn't do anything to mites in the cells (over 80% of them IIRC at this time of night!), so it only has a small effect, removing some of the free living mites.

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## Neils

> There is some research which say it is not effective, never even tried it myself, so cannot really say.
> 
> There is a bit below on RO's site, but expect you may of seen this Neil.
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/powd...y-work-part-1/
> And this...
> http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20090217_5


Funnily enough I was looking at another study on IBRA while trying to find that one, my google fu is obviously weak tonight.




> It doesn't do anything to mites in the cells (over 80% of them IIRC at this time of night!), so it only has a small effect, removing some of the free living mites.


Somewhere I have a chart put together by one of the guys here where he worked out that a 10 day dusting cycle was optimal for getting the maximum number of phoretic mites in between brood cycles. But that still assumes that it is effective as a treatment.

I do think that it does have some place in an IPM scheme, one of the guys here uses it on samples of bees to knock mites off to guage the phoretic levels, but that uses a lot of icing sugar on bees in a honey jar.

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## Phil Moss

> Somewhere I have a chart put together by one of the guys here where he worked out that a 10 day dusting cycle was optimal for getting the maximum number of phoretic mites in between brood cycles. But that still assumes that it is effective as a treatment.
> 
> I do think that it does have some place in an IPM scheme, one of the guys here uses it on samples of bees to knock mites off to guage the phoretic levels, but that uses a lot of icing sugar on bees in a honey jar.


Regular dusting will knock mites off, I had not heard of the 10 day cycle, I would forget it as a treatment, as you will still have mites in the cells.

The 'sugar roll test' puts bees and icing sugar in a honey jar with a piece of mesh as a lid, I rotate them for about a minute (they get remarkably warm), let sit for 2 minutes, (I then rotate again), shake the mites out through the mesh top.

2 other versions here:

http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tid...0/btdjan00.htm
http://www.beelab.umn.edu/prod/group...set_317466.pdf

I use it to test for the pesence of varroa if a beekkeeper asks me to check for them, it will give you an indication of how many there are, but to have a 'proper' count to plan your control program, a mesh floor is best.

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## Jon

Phil, I know it is standard advice from FERA to count the mites which drop through the mesh floor over a number of days, take an average, then extrapolate the total mite number from that -  but I have always found this to be very inaccurate. Sometimes I don't see a mite on the insert tray for months then treatment of some sort can produce several hundred overnight.

I agree with you that sugar dusting is of limited effectiveness. The particles in the sugar have to be below a certain size for maximum effectiveness and with a lot of icing sugar off the shelf the particles are too big.

This paper is interesting.

Journal of Apicultural Research 51(4): 367-368 (2012) © IBRA 2012
DOI 10.3896/IBRA.1.51.4.14

Revisiting powdered sugar for varroa control on
honey bees (Apis mellifera L.)
Jennifer A Berry1, Ohad Afik1,2, Maxcy P Nolan IV1 and Keith S Delaplane1




> Dusting bees with powdered sugar has been examined as a remedial control for Varroa destructor Anderson and Trueman (varroa). Two modes of action have been proposed: one being that fine dust
> impedes the locomotion of phoretic mites and induces them to fall off bees (Ramirez, 1994), and another being that dust induces a grooming response in bees that similarly dislodges mites (Macedo et al., 2002). When measured as a percentage of phoretic mites dislodged,
> powdered sugar dusting has achieved experimental knock-down rates ranging from 77% (Aliano and Ellis, 2005) to more than 90% (Fakhimzadeh, 2001; Macedo et al., 2002), but a persistent problem has been translating these kinds of results into practical field applications.
> The most comprehensive examination of powdered sugar as a
> field-level varroa control was the work of Ellis et al. (2009) in Florida. These authors dusted the top bars of brood combs with powdered sugar every two weeks from April until the following February (11 months), compared numerous parameters of colony strength and varroa populations against a control group, and found no treatment effects on any parameter of interest. In spite of these negative, yet convincing results, we wanted to do a field study that: 1. exploited a brood-free period of the season when all mites are phoretic on adults and vulnerable to dust treatment (bee colonies in sub-tropical Florida are rarely brood-free); 2. compared more than one dust delivery method, and; 3. compared more than one treatment timing interval. We felt that these outstanding questions should be resolved before we abandon powdered sugar as a bee-safe (Fakhimzadeh, 2001) and chemical-free varroa control option.

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## madasafish

As a TBH keeper, sugar dusting is fraught with all sorts of logistical problems - in other words it's very difficult to do effectively. You ideally need a sugar puffer and access from below  - or move every frame.

As a result I have never done it (nor oxalic)

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## Phil Moss

there is no reason why a TBH should not have top bars with spacers as in a national, with a canvas quilt on top. This has lots of advatages, such as sugar dusting (if you beivee in it!!!), oxalic, formic(!) etc.
I have 2 horizontal hives, like TBHs but well insulated etc, and they take deep frames with spacers. I can and do sometimes use top bars, but space them out.

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## The Drone Ranger

hi madasafish

can you use thymol on top bar hive ??

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## madasafish

Yes.

I use thymol plus beeswax mix impregnated strings hung between topbars*. Last year my mite drop was v low  - tens. But the weather was so bad we had brood breaks in summer so hardly surprising. If I had been a *proper* _natural beekeeper_ and not fed my bees  I would  have had none. I also add thymol emulsified mix to autumn feed  to reduce nosema (?)..  

Mite drop on my largest hive looks as if it may be highish - but I have just cleared it for a recount  -if the weather allows  - terrible forecast..

* bees do their best to eject them out of the hive!

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## Jon

Time to start the unnatural beekeeper movement madasafish!

Will soon be time to hear the news from the non treaters who will claim that their bees have died again from ABV (anything but varroa)

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## The Drone Ranger

I hadn't heard about the strings method 
How do you make them

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## Dark Bee

There was a well known beekeeper here about 10 years ago, who used to advocate "fogging" with liquid parrafin as a means of dealing with varroa. When it became obvious that this was slightly less effective than pouring a cup of cold tea into the hive, the treatment was supplemented by using strings soaked in something or other; a waste of string :Wink: . I believe the treatment originated with a gentleman named Rodrigeuz - should anyone wish to investigate further.
However strings soaked in a different substance may work very well, it could be an effective means of introducing a volatile treatment into the hive.

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## gavin

> ..... than pouring a cup of cold tea into the hive ....


Now there's an idea!   :Wink:

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## gavin

> So just wondering what other people's thoughts around it are.


When I've spoken to local groups I sometimes end up chatting to beginners who have lost their bees overwinter despite feeding.  It is always instructive to ask what their Varroa treatments were.  Some places are better than others at giving good advice on this - may explain some of the east-west differences in my view.

If there is an effect of regular dowsing with powdered sugar it may be via the reduction in colony vigour which by itself will slow a Varroa build-up.

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## Phil Moss

Beermats would be better than strings, specially if you get to drink the beer!

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## The Drone Ranger

I was just wondering how the thymol and wax strings were made
Sugar is messy stuff and most people think its not very effective.

Now beer, that has possibilities, I could see me setting off to the hives with a few cold ones.

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## Neils

> When I've spoken to local groups I sometimes end up chatting to beginners who have lost their bees overwinter despite feeding.  It is always instructive to ask what their Varroa treatments were.  Some places are better than others at giving good advice on this - may explain some of the east-west differences in my view.
> 
> If there is an effect of regular dowsing with powdered sugar it may be via the reduction in colony vigour which by itself will slow a Varroa build-up.


I feel there's a wider question/point here.

If, as an individual beekeeper, someone feels that icing sugar and, presumably, an OMF is enough as an IPM, then fine. But  I think discussion over advice given by associations to [new] Beekeepers, or even what a beekeeper considers an IPM scheme to be, belongs in another thread.

I'm not trying to "thread cop", but I was interested specifically in icing sugar and what people, as Beekeepers thought about its use.  :Big Grin:

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Neils

To answer the icing sugar question 
I think its a bit like homeopathy its clearly rubbish but if you believe it works you feel better

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## gavin

I'm with DR but would add ....

.... until you lose your bees, then any feel good factor reverses.

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## Neils

That's a bit harsh! Unlike homeopathy I do think icing sugar has some demonstrable effect.

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## Jon

> That's a bit harsh! Unlike homeopathy I do think icing sugar has some demonstrable effect.


eventual death of the colony if used in isolation as some beekeepers appear to do!

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## Neils

Hence the *part* of IPM element to the question  :Smile:

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## Jon

I Know I know but you need to bold the *part* over on biobees

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## madasafish

> I hadn't heard about the strings method 
> How do you make them


http://tinyurl.com/cufvs4f 

(Warning: link to biobees for those of a nervous disposition... which rules out most forum readers:-)

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... If there is an effect of regular dowsing with powdered sugar it may be via the reduction in colony vigour which by itself will slow a Varroa build-up.





> ... I think its a bit like homeopathy its clearly rubbish but if you believe it works you feel better


I've never dusted with sugar so I have no experience of it, but the Apivar vet laughed when I suggested trying it, saying that at least the bees will like it - but perhaps not if they become slug-like.  How long does this reduction in vigour last and why would sugar-dusting reduce the bees' vigour?

Back to sugar-dusting as part of an IPM varroa treatment - isn't it true that sugar-dusting causes the mites hitching a ride on the bees' backs to lose their grip?  (So not quite in the homeopathy league.)
Kitta

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## gavin

Well, the bit about reduced vigour was just my guesswork.  No evidence whatsoever!  But it is a rather invasive procedure which has to be performed weekly to have much chance of knocking off enough mites to do something about their build-up.  The sugar falling into cells might damage brood too.  Again, my supposition. 

OK, Neil, sugar dusting as part of IPM?  Nah, still don't think that it is worthwhile although feel free to try, and perhaps a swarm a few days in is a useful time to try.  Oxalic or lactic acid would be better though.  Even then, when there are no mites in sealed cells, I reckon a goodly proportion of mites on adult bees (most call them phoretic but it doesn't really fit the desciption) are feeding and clamped down between abdominal segments, half tucked in under some integument.  I don't imagine these ones will fall off after a brief sugar dusting and grooming session.

What bee colonies need - either in time for a fresh start in the coming spring (oxalic, December), or as colonies start to wind down for winter and raise winter bees (thymol or Apivar, early September) is to have the majority of their mite load removed.  A weekly tickle with powdered sugar may just remove 10% each time and for some of summer not even keep up with mite multiplication.

10%?  If - 80% are in sealed cells, and half of those in the open remain attached, that's 10% each time knocked off.  When there is drone brood mites can multiply 4x per month. 

For me, IPM is keeping an eye on things and acting in the right way at the right time.  Prophyactic oxalic treatment in mid-winter as a routine may not be the responsive treatment many people think of as IPM but it is sensible and pragmatic.  The summer treatment is the optional one for me, but that should be something that knocks down mite populations to a low level so that the smaller brood nest producing winter bees is not overwhelmed.

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## Bumble

> The sugar falling into cells might damage brood too.  Again, my supposition.


I read somewhere, can't remember where, that icing sugar can cause honey to crystallise.

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## Phil Moss

It can be mixed in with extracted liquid honey to act as a 'seed; to initiate crystaisation, but you are adding sucrose.....
naughty boy!
Use a nice fine crystailsed honey.

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## gavin

One more thing I do for Varroa, which you would regard as part of IPM, if the numbers are high in early summer, is drone trapping. Do it well (provide a place for them to make drone brood, usually a shallow frame, make sure there is little elsewhere, and give them a second one a week or two later) and most Varroa should be removed.

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## Black Comb

I tried it one year but it seemed to make no difference. Then I read the IBRA report and stopped.
My varroa was higher last year (I only Apiguard and oxalic) so this year I will add drone brood culling and also give Hiveclean a go.

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## Bumble

> It can be mixed in with extracted liquid honey to act as a 'seed; to initiate crystaisation, but you are adding sucrose.....
> naughty boy!
> Use a nice fine crystailsed honey.


Sorry, no, I meant if the sugar accidentally gets into frames containing nectar it can make it set in the frames. Like OSR honey does.

It's been a long, dark, wet, week and my brain isn't working properly

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## Phil Moss

> Sorry, no, I meant if the sugar accidentally gets into frames containing nectar it can make it set in the frames. Like OSR honey does.
> 
> It's been a long, dark, wet, week and my brain isn't working properly


Yes, I guessed that was what you meant but couldn't resist the other use!
Not that I meant you are a naughty boy, just anyone who sets honey using icing sugar.

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## The Drone Ranger

> http://tinyurl.com/cufvs4f 
> 
> (Warning: link to biobees for those of a nervous disposition... which rules out most forum readers:-)


Thanks for that link 
I like to check out any methods I haven't heard of and test them if they look promising
I have tried sugar dusting and I think its useless as part of IPM plan

HI Black comb you could try this it works better and is cheaper than apiguard

thymol 500grm dissolved in 1 Ltr surgical spirit
2 sponges 3" square on broodbox top bars
20ml solution on each sponge repeat after 2 weeks

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## Black Comb

Thanks. Yes will try this type this year.

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## Neils

I use oasis from the local florist instead of sponges though I have used them before.  In theory the oasis should be easier for the bees to clear out which I'd hope would get the thymol through the hive more effectively, but only one of my colonies makes any real effort to clear it out.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Neils

Haven't tried Oasis 

Lidl sell these flat type you may have tried them
http://www.lidl.com.cy/cps/rde/xchg/...4179_18795.htm

Which chopped into 4 gives you 20 about the right size enough for 10 hives
The thymol mix is put on with the sponge in place with a syringe (big 30/40ml job)
The bees don't clear these sponges they are too tough
Thymol carried by evaporating surgical spirit needs smallish entrance and fairly air tight hive
That means less mess though and it works well
Very cheap

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## gavin

> The bees don't clear these sponges they are too tough
> Thymol carried by evaporating surgical spirit needs smallish entrance and fairly air tight hive
> That means less mess though and it works well
> Very cheap


I saw this in action 2 summers back then checked the bees last summer. They were the most agitated bees I've seen on thymol. And the sponge material seemed to get incorporated in the propolis. 

I'd rather stick with one of the commercial preparations or just plain thymol crystals in a jar lid on the top bars which also works. 

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## The Drone Ranger

> I saw this in action 2 summers back then checked the bees last summer. They were the most agitated bees I've seen on thymol. And the sponge material seemed to get incorporated in the propolis. 
> 
> I'd rather stick with one of the commercial preparations or just plain thymol crystals in a jar lid on the top bars which also works. 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


Fair enough it's not compulsory

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