# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Polystyrene Hives

## POPZ

Having searched the forum for any info on polystyrene hives and coming up with a blank, has anyone in this part of the world had any experience with them? 

I am very tempted to have 'a go' with one. Although considerably cheaper than the norm, buying on the cheap can generally mean problems down the line somewhere!!

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## Adam

Hi Popz, Modern Beekeeping will soon have some Poly Nationals (aka Rooftops in another place). As John knows what he's doing it may be worth contacting him. I too am a poly virgin and I'm considering taking the plunge soon.

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## gavin

I'm hoping to get some from Denrosa for the new association apiary once the new stock arrive. At least some of the ones Modern Beekeeping sell have Denrosa stamped on them.

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## POPZ

Thanks for that Gavin and Adam. But what I really want to know is whether anyone has tried them in our climate? Albeit, that Mull does tend to be rather 'balmy' at times - quote from someone last week! and thats why you may need sunglasses Gavin!.

I know that these hives are used in Scandinavian countries extensively with very good results. They are, of course, considerably colder but DRIER than us!

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## gavin

They were promoted by Bernard Mobus at the North of Scotland College in Aberdeen, and I've seen them still in use by a number of beekeepers in that area.  They are also in extensive use by commercial beekeepers in Scotland.  Those who had a mix of polystyrene and wooden hives in the 2009/2010 winter had markedly better survival in the polyhives.  They have mesh built into the floor and the good insulation means that they do not have the condensation problems of less well insulated hives.  I would imagine that balmy Mull would suit them down to the ground - or at least down to the lower part of your favourite hive stands.

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## Jimbo

Hi Popz,

I have a mixture of Polyhives and wooden hives. I first saw polyhives in Europe about 10 years ago on a visit to Sweinty in Denmark. I purchased a few hives from Murray McGregor (Denrosa) on my return. Polyhives are quite popular in the Helensburgh area which is just as wet as Mull I have also purchased from Standfordham. When people think of Polyhives they think of the soft polysyrene sheets used in packing. The polyhive is more dense that the poly fish boxes you sometimes see in fishing ports. You would be hard pushed to damage it with your hive tool. I have no damage after about 8 years use. One drawback is the floor comes with a small mesh and is not suitable if you want to monitor with a varroa floor. I just place the poly brood box onto a wooden varroa floor. The insulation is better that a wooden hive resulting in the brood nest not being in the middle of the hive wher you would expect it. On some occasions I have found the bees on inspection to one side of the hive. I have never had a problem with condinsation or dampness in a polyhive. The bees don't propolise it the same as a wooden hive. One disadvantage is cleaning the hive ie you can't use your blowtorch on it like a wooden hive (stating the obvious) I clean the inside by using washing soda. You can paint the outside with a gloss paint if you wish. The poly roof is not very deep and would need straps to keep it on. The best bit of poly kit I have is the large poly feeder. When feeding I just fill it up and the winter feed is done. One tip is to paint the inside of the feeder as well as the outside as the sugar solution tends to encourage black growth on the polystyrene.

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## robin118

> I'm hoping to get some from Denrosa for the new association apiary once the new stock arrive. At least some of the ones Modern Beekeeping sell have Denrosa stamped on them.


The ones from modern beekeeping are from paradise honey in Finland Iv just bought ten langstroth's but their not in use yet. Regards Andrew

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## Easy beesy

Got a mix of poly and cedar nationals on the (wet) west coast. Colonies do seem to overwinter better in polystyrene BB and get off to a better start in spring. For those to whom the info may be useful, they are lighter too. I know of at least one commercial bkpr who uses nothing but. 
Eb

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## Rosie

Gavin

Have any of the Scottish foulbrood cases been found in Poly hives?  If so how did you go about sterilising them?

Rosie

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Rosie
For what it is worth!  Profuse apologise for paste up -but only credible way to promulgate this info!  The last line of the prose is extremely interesting.
Eric

Hygiene in the apiary
(A manual for hygienic beekeeping)
A publication arising from BeeShop
The research project ‘Bees in Europe and Sustainable Honey Production’
Contract PL 022568 of the EU’s 6th FP
Edited by Dalibor Titera, BRI Dol 2009


TYPES OF CHEMICAL SUBSTANCES WITH DISINFECTIVE PROPERTIES
Hydroxides and alkali salts
Solutions of hydroxides and alkali salts act through their high concentration of
hydroxylic anions (OH-). Solutions with a pH higher than 12 are very efficient. The
pH of a solution can be measured by pH test papers. They are often used as
additions to other means of disinfection because they increase total disinfection
efficiency. They can be used while hot, but then the more caution has to be used.
Chemical burn with caustic soda causes deep lesions. We also appreciate that in
beekeeping they dissolve wax and lipids. They are readily available and relatively
cheap.
This group includes
13
- potassium hydroxide, KOH
- sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), NaOH
- sodium carbonate (washing soda), Na2CO3
they are used in 2 up to 6 % concentration, at best while hot (they also destroy
spores of AFB at 80 °C)

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## gavin

Yes, there have been cases in polyhives.  I remember there being early talk of landfill, but I know one who cleaned his in a hot bath of one of the sodas.  Can't remember if Virkon is acceptable too - it has been discussed.  I'm not sure whether there was a uniform policy or not but I can point you to the man to speak to if you are interested.  I'll see him tomorrow night and I may ask him then if I remember.

There is funding in place for a new co-op to build a sterilising plant locally.  This will take boxes and frames from any beekeeper, sterilise them in a hot caustic soda bath, and replace the wax foundation.  The idea with that is not to clean up individual cases but to remove background levels on comb and boxes and help operations run more or less disease-free in future.  There should be advantages in terms of chalk brood, viruses and Nosema too, and consequently the health of stocks in general.

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## GRIZZLY

I'm still waiting to order my  poly Nationals fron John Laidler.Still no news when they will be available.They should be painted externally with ACRYLIC based paints i.e Smooth Dulux Weathershield coloured to suit by your local paint stockist.John Mellis outside Dumfries uses poly hives in great number which is where I first saw them ,was impressed by their lightness and made the decision to change over to plastic myself.Modern Beekeepings website contains a lot of useful information about their use,sterilisation etc.etc.

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## gavin

Does anyone paint the insides apart from the feeders?

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## GRIZZLY

> Does anyone paint the insides apart from the feeders?


 No only inside the floors and roofs.

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## robin118

I think that it is a personal choice to paint the inside but from what I have read seen and discussed people don't ten too.

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## gavin

> I'm not sure whether there was a uniform policy or not but I can point you to the man to speak to if you are interested.  I'll see him tomorrow night and I may ask him then if I remember.


Steve, I forgot to ask t'other Steve, Steve Sunderland, our lead bee inspector.  However John Laidler's web site points to this very comprehensive document on sterilising hives.  It discusses EFB and AFB and the options available for polystyrene hives.  Our bee inspectors work closely with the team at FERA in York, so I would imagine they will follow the National Bee Unit on this.

Gavin

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## Rosie

Thanks Gavin

I remember the Bee Unit recommending virkon S at one stage and other chemicals too.  However, at least one bee inspector thinks that in time it will be shown that none of these treatments will be shown to be fully effective against the foulbroods as it's so difficult to clean thoroughly enough before using the sterilizing chemicals.  Apparently the surface of the poystyrene is full of tiny fissures, especially after scraping, and the cleaning agents and chemicals can sometiems fail to penetrate them all. 

Rosie

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## BenB

Hi Jim,
I agree 100% with your comments on poly hives.(we got them together) 
I have slightly modified my poly floors by enlarging the open area and fitting a larger area of mesh and I've made a very simple wooden underfloor to slide the varroa test board in.    
I would not buy another wooden hive. Having said that as you know I'm planning to make a Dartington, for the fun of it.
BenB

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## gavin

Welcome to the forum and it is great to see you posting Ben.

I'll be seeing Murray McGregor tomorrow and I hope that by now his stock of Polyhive boxes will have been topped up by the expected delivery of roofs and floors.  He charges £15 per unit (plus VAT), and so a 6-unit hive (floor, brood box, two supers, feeder, roof) is just £90 (£108 incl).  I'm going to have a second brood box for each to help nuc raising.

From what I hear from a number of beekeepers with reasonable numbers of wooden and polyhives, survival is much better in polyhives.  I had always intended to try some at the association apiary, but given their reported success and also the weight issue (important for stocks that may be moved to the heather and also to a distant mating site) then I hope to have mostly polystyrene ones.

I'll post pictures and experiences on the East of Scotland Apiary blog later.

all the best

Gavin

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## GRIZZLY

Gavin is this Murray the ITLD of the other forum?

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## gavin

Yes he is.

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## robin118

Does Murray have a web page and does he sell langstroth polys?

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## gavin

If you Google for Denrosa you'll get contact details but, no, no web page.  At this time of year he is really busy.

His main operation uses poly Langstroths so I guess that he sells them too.  The prices I mentioned before were approximate as some pieces were more than that and some less.

I should get commission for this!  (but don't in case you were wondering)

G.

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## robin118

Thanks for that Gavin

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## Neils

Arise!  Was considering giving a Poly 14x12 a go to compare and also to take along to our beginners course this year. Prices look good, £57 for a complete 14x12 hive (minus frames and supers) from Paynes or £113 for the hive, plus super, a sturdier looking roof and entrance block (the bits not included from Paynes) from beehive supplies

Heard a bit about Paynes, but no idea what the general feeling is on the hives themselves.  Any thoughts?

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## susbees

My thoughts remain the same on poly...great for mininucs, possibly even for overwintering nucs but I don't fancy having to keep full hives permanently tethered to a lump of non-eco concrete and our RBI isn't keen at all. As yet no AFB in polyhives but no policy for dealing with an outbreak in the field...petrol? Not likely...And I don't wear the attempts at saying these things are environmentally ok. There. Grump over.

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## Neils

Fair enough Points Susbees and for the most part not ones that I disagree with though I could at least claim to be recycling a brick.  For demonstration purposes though I'd quite like to have one and for myself just to see in the barmy climes of the south west whether there's any appreciable difference with them.  

But one of my main reasons for liking Cedar is that it does, quite literally, grow on trees.  :Big Grin:

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## susbees

There's a reasonable chance I'll need one to test for a research project at some point in the next year or so...but no-one makes Commercial size afaik. All cedar here.

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## Neils

Certainly not seen a commercial one. Only started to see National and 14x12 last year really.

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## Adam

I have seen little about the Beehive Supplies hives and lots about the MB and Paynes ones. Maybe Beehive Supplies are missing a marketing trick somehow.

I believe strong bleach will kill AFB.

I have bought a MB polyhive and it is nicely made. However there are dimensional issues with it which is a shame so I may get rid or just use it as a chunky nuc and transfer the bees out. The Paynes ones don't seem to have the problem although the roof is a bit lightweight. It IS made in the UK though. I happened to speak to the supplier about something we were looking at for my work and the investment that Paynes has made will be quite substantial - the tooling isn't cheap at all. I hope it pays off for them.

It is said that polyhives get more honey due to better insulation and faster build-up. (Swarmy bees might swarm earlier too). But I do like buggering around with bits of wood and hive parts can be made very cheaply with offcuts and skip diving.

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## GRIZZLY

I bought 10 MB nationals last year.As Adam said - there are issues with compatability with wood nationals.The hives are well made but it is difficult to interchange with wood components,You can see my No1 hive in operation on the opening page of the Modern Beekeeping site.I also bought 10 of Murrays poly nationals last autumn.I will keep the MB hives for my home apiary and the "Murray" hives for my out apiary.The murray hives are completely compatible with my wooden equipment.I believe the Paynes poly nationals are also completely compatible also.Good price at the moment in their sale.Theres a good article on the MB site about hive sterilization and cleaning.

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## gavin

Thanks Grizzly.

You can see Murray's (Swienty, also sold by Wynne Jones) polyhives being built in this blog here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...nty-Poly-Hives

I agree with the interchangeability of wooden parts - for example supers and queen excluders.  As has been described elsewhere, the poly nationals are bottom bee space hives.  This means that the roofs and feeders (which were designed for top space hives) have no bee space.  They are lovely hives, very solid and light, but the issue with bee space means that you need a solution.  Last year I used a heavy duty polythene sheet in lieu of a crown board, but adding a wooden crown board could be another solution (at the risk of losing some of the advantage of polystyrene hives in the first place).  When you have the feeders on (and they can stay on all winter as long as the gales don't blow them off!) they need to sit directly on the box and so directly on the top bars too.  A polythene sheet on top allows you to shoogle bees safely out of the way before you put it on but, if you sized the sheet for use under the roof, it could cover the slot the bees use to access the feeder.  Folding it back a little gets over this.  Not so hard in small colonies but in boxes overflowing with bees it may be harder to avoid squashing bees.

I'm tempted to try affixing polystyrene strips under feeders and inside roofs, but it hardly seems worth the bother and they'd probably get knocked off.  The Swienty/Denrosa polyhives do at least share the outer dimensions with the usual wooden Nationals, so exchanging parts is possible.  

Do MB polyhives have the bee space issue sorted?  And do they have queen excluders?  With the Swienty hives you can use a wooden QX if you have such a mind.

I've just noticed on their web site that MB Nationals are top bee space.

Gavin

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... As has been described elsewhere, the poly nationals are bottom bee space hives.  This means that the roofs and feeders (which were designed for top space hives) have no bee space.   ...
> Gavin


Gavin,

I'm a bit confused now: aren't the bee spaces just the other way round?  Wooden BS Nationals: bottom bee space; and poly hives (or, MB Nationals) top?

I bought the MB medium-frame Langstroths together with the frames sold on their site - but I did not read everything carefully enough.  Whereas both poly and wooden Langstroth hives are top bee space, the Langstroth frames sold by MB have thicker lugs, raising them so that the hives become bottom-spaced.  I don't have any other kind of Langstroth hive or Langstroth frames, so it doesn't really matter - but I am a bit disappointed that the hives are, as a consequence of my frame choice, now bottom bee-spaced.

Kitta

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## gavin

Hi Kitta


As I understand it:


 Modified National  bottom bee space (_usually_)
 Swienty Poly National  bottom bee space (this is what I was referring to above)
 MB Poly National  top bee space
 Smith  top bee space
 Langstroth  top bee space  


 .. but the Swienty polyhives are matched with top bee space feeders and roofs, so you need to adjust what you do if you want to minimise the crushing of bees. 



I don't have much experience with Langstroth frames, although I have seen a warehouse-full of them not so far from here.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Swienty Poly National  bottom bee space (this is what I was referring to above)
> 
>  .. but the Swienty polyhives are matched with top bee space feeders and roofs, so you need to adjust what you do if you want to minimise the crushing of bees.


Thanks Gavin, now I understand the problem.

That design problem must be similar to what I now have with my MB Langstroths.  They're top bee space, but because of the thick lugs of the MB frames, I have lost that space and now the roofs and feeders sit just about on top of the frames.  Yes, that's awkward.

Kitta

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## Adam

The MB hives are top bee space which is OK, a sheet of plywood with a hole in it is ok as a crown board for feeding - with a super or brood box on top as an eke. Or the roof can go on the plywood easily enough.
However there are two dimensional issues that I am not too happy with which you wouldn't notice with just a brood box.
1) With one brood box on another, the bee space between the bottom of the top frame to the top of the lower frame is less than 4 mm which means that you'll squash bees if you slide a top frame across or if you place the top box on the lower one.
2) The size for a queen excluder has to be 5 mm smaller each way than the usual 460 mm (you also have to round off the corners). MB told me that they do cut their excluders down...
3) The bee space between the bottom of a super frame and the top of the box below is 12 mm.
4) The plastic frame runners are tight on the end of the frame so they are difficult to slide. Also there is no space undere the frame where it sits on the frame runner so bees will get squashed there.

Sorry that's 4 dimensional issues. Cue the Spanish Inquisition!

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## nemphlar

CHecking  up on the feeding yesterday and. Had to smoke my home made poly hive they were so much more lively Than the wooden hives and on all 12frames. Only one hive but quite impressive I'm reluctant to bin a shed full of smiths gear can anyone recommend a reasonably priced compatable poly to try

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## Rosie

Why do you think it's so good to be more lively?  I like mine to be quiet during the winter to give me chance to zap varroa and to reduce food consumption.  I think Murray makes a poly Smith if you really want them.  He used to anyway when I once had a rush of blood and researched them.  In the end I stuck to cedar.

Rosie

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## Neils

I've ordered a couple of the Paynes 14x12s to have a look at them and see how I get on.  Still think the lid looks a little flimsy but we'll see. I'm not yet convinced by the whole poly shenanigans, but figure that they're cheap enough to buy a couple and see how they compare to the Cedar hives and it'll be handy to have one for the beginners course later in the month.

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## Adam

Neil,
One thought I've had about the lid - and the 6 frame nuc too is the thickness. My schoolboy science tells me that condensation will form on the coldest part. Therefore the lid needs to be warmer than the sides, consequently the lid needs to be thicker to avoid condensation and I don't think it is.

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## Adam

> CHecking  up on the feeding yesterday and. Had to smoke my home made poly hive they were so much more lively Than the wooden hives and on all 12frames. Only one hive but quite impressive I'm reluctant to bin a shed full of smiths gear can anyone recommend a reasonably priced compatable poly to try


Unfortunately we can't confirm our views by 1 hive alone (although plenty of beekeepers have done that). It would be good to see a real trial of, say 10 hives in cedar and 10 hives in poly. (Bro Adam rekoned that you needed 20 hives of each for a thorough experiment I recall).

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## GRIZZLY

Comparing timber versus poly hives,I've just Oxalic Acid drenched my bees.The bees in wooden hives were totally comatose and didn't stir a wing,but, all the bees in the poly hives were alert and the odd one flew up when the hives were opened.Obviously the bees in the poly hives can maintain a higher temperature than those in the cedar hives.With regard to the top beespace/bottom beespace incompatability,the MOD Beekeeping hives are top beespace so you realy need to use a top framed Q excluder to maintain the beespace.The excluders supplied by MB are plastic,cut down externally to fit the dimensions across the top of their brood box and need framing on the "top side" to a)Stiffen them to stop sagging on to the B.box frame tops and b) to maintain the bee space above the excluder.I was very dissappointed at their incompatability with my existing wooden equipment so had to make some special  adaptors to be able to interchange units.However ,as a self contained system,the Modern Beekeeping hives are excellant and well made.As stated previously I can fortunately separate the two types of hive into two separate systems so in future won't suffer from any incompatability problems - I will use my wooden bits with Murrays plastic nationals and MB  bits and pieces as a unique self contained system.

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## Calum

my two bits. 
Yes they seem warmer in Polys this may be a bad thing - if a small brood nest is kept going for longer during the winter this helps the varroa more than the bees. I worry that may be the case where the bees have less problem keeping warm. 

For the OS treatment the bees need to be tightly bunched for best treatment effect - that way they get better a covering (according to the German treatment handbooks) and they should be brood free. 

I don't worry myself about a lower or higher consumption of winter feed - I usually have spare frames, but reduced varroa and better treatment effectiveness I do like.

Woodpeckers get through poly hives like its butter, but they can get into wooden ones with a bit of effort too...
..

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## Mellifera Crofter

> 1) With one brood box on another, the bee space between the bottom of the top frame to the top of the lower frame is less than 4 mm which means that you'll squash bees if you slide a top frame across or if you place the top box on the lower one.
>  ...


I don't know about brood box on top of another, but the space between the frames of two medium boxes is about 1cm (using MB wooden frames).  I took the measurement from two medium frame nucleus boxes - but I suppose the space between two normal medium boxes will be the same.  I hadn't noticed any squashing of bees between the frames, Adam.




> ... With regard to the top beespace/bottom beespace incompatability,the MOD Beekeeping hives are top beespace ... 
> 
> However ,as a self contained system,the Modern Beekeeping hives are excellant and well made.


Yes, MB hives are top bee space - but not if you use their wooden frames.  I attach a picture.

I agree with Grizzly about the quality of the MB hives.  I also like the raised lip on the edge of the box.  I suppose that is one of the issues affecting compatibility, but I think it helps to exclude drafts through the hive - particularly on our windy hill.

Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... my home made poly hive they were so much more lively Than the wooden hives and on all 12frames. Only one hive but quite impressive ...





> Unfortunately we can't confirm our views by 1 hive alone (although plenty of beekeepers have done that). It would be good to see a real trial of, say 10 hives in cedar and 10 hives in poly. (Bro Adam rekoned that you needed 20 hives of each for a thorough experiment I recall).


Another one-hive (or three-hive) observation, Adam: Two days ago - a nice windless, sunny but frosty day - I looked at the hives.  Three of them were in the sun: one wooden hive and two poly hives.  Of those three the bees in the wooden hive were flying about outside.  Could it be that they were more aware of the sun heating their hive and so made use of it for some cleansing flights?

Kitta

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## GRIZZLY

Those frame top bars don't look like standard design to me M C.   Use proper "standard " top bars and throw the ones you've got away and the hives WILL revert to top bee space.Who supplied the ones shown on your photo ?.

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## Jimbo

I agree with Grizzly the lugs are too thick

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Those frame top bars don't look like standard design to me M C. Use proper "standard " top bars and throw the ones you've got away and the hives WILL revert to top bee space.Who supplied the ones shown on your photo ?.





> I agree with Grizzly the lugs are too thick


Yes, they're not the usual kind.  They're sold by Modern Beekeeping (Langstroth medium frames in my case), and this is what they say about them:

"These frames have a top bar which is the same thickness all along its length.  This gives great strength but it does lift the frame up, reducing the top bee space, although this is countered by a corresponding increase in bottom space.  They can be mixed with conventional frames with thin lugs but some beekeepers may prefer to keep them separate.   This type of frame design is now very common in some European countries."

I didn't notice that bit about the thickness of the top bar when I ordered them.

I bought too many of them to throw away, Grizzly - but I'll have a good think about them before I order some more.

Kitta

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## susbees

> As I understand it:
> 
> 
>  Modified National  bottom bee space (_usually_)
>  Swienty Poly National  bottom bee space (this is what I was referring to above)
>  MB Poly National  top bee space
>  Smith  top bee space
>  Langstroth  top bee space


And Abelo (Łysoń ) poly National - inadequate. I pointed out the other day that their advertised "Commercial" nucs were in fact Langstroths (bit of detective work on the catalogue number). I did tell them nicely but they do not seem to want to reply  :Frown:

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## Adam

> I don't know about brood box on top of another, but the space between the frames of two medium boxes is about 1cm (using MB wooden frames).  I took the measurement from two medium frame nucleus boxes - but I suppose the space between two normal medium boxes will be the same.  I hadn't noticed any squashing of bees between the frames, Adam.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, MB hives are top bee space - but not if you use their wooden frames.  I attach a picture.
> 
> I agree with Grizzly about the quality of the MB hives.  I also like the raised lip on the edge of the box.  I suppose that is one of the issues affecting compatibility, but I think it helps to exclude drafts through the hive - particularly on our windy hill.
> 
> Kitta


Kitta, I'm referring to the National MB hive. As you refer to mediums I guess you have the Langstroth flavour.

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## nemphlar

Rosie I have 8 ancient cedar hives and I love working with them you can almost feel the history, but if poly is giving a faster build up then just like using FA and OA It has to be. I used the sublimated OA this year from a copper pipe and viewed it through a glass cover the vapour cloud spread quite nicely with a drop in the hundreds,so although the bees were active I think I had reasonable distribution
If need be I'll treat with FA late spring assuming the queens keep going

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Kitta, I'm referring to the National MB hive. As you refer to mediums I guess you have the Langstroth flavour.


Thanks Adam - yes, I do have Langstroths.

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## Rosie

> Rosie I have 8 ancient cedar hives and I love working with them you can almost feel the history, but if poly is giving a faster build up then just like using FA and OA It has to be. I used the sublimated OA this year from a copper pipe and viewed it through a glass cover the vapour cloud spread quite nicely with a drop in the hundreds,so although the bees were active I think I had reasonable distribution
> If need be I'll treat with FA late spring assuming the queens keep going


Thanks for that explanation nemphlar.  My own views are different because I try to minimise my varroa treatment so am keen for the winter oxalic to be particularly effective - hence no brood in the hive.  In addition there is no point in having early bees around here as the first decent flow is from sycamore.  Early bees would just need to be fed.

My other interest is the selection of hardy native traits so keeping them warm in winter might mask badly adapted bees.

Rosie

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## Neils

I've not managed to actually see them yet, but my poly hives have turned up.

Rosie's point is interesting, is [hive] temperature a driver for a colony to start building up or is it dependent on the availability of Pollen/nectar (or both?)

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## GRIZZLY

What make are your polyhives Nellie ?

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## Neils

I got the paynes hives in the end despite the thin roof as they're supposed to be compatible with wood national gear.

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## Neils

I should have them tomorrow, I need to get at least one made up if they're flat packed for the beginner's course on saturday so I'll try and post some thoughts and better quality photos than Paynes have on their site if I get some time over the weekend.

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## Neils

Well so far I'm relatively impressed with it: (click for larger images)


The infamous lid:


it is thinner than the walls of the brood box, but fears that it might be a little flimsy seem to be completely unfounded. I think you'd have to keep bees in the arctic circle for condensation to become a problem with this.

The floor seems pretty sturdy, comes with a thick, white correx sheet insert that slides under the mesh.


And the whole thing seems pretty well thought out, the brood box slots onto the floor to improve it's chances of staying in one piece although that does mean that you can't use the poly floor with a wood brood box unless you file off those lugs on the corners.


It doesn't use a crown board but does come with a clear plastic sheet to put between the roof and the frames, metal runners (bottom bee space) and a strap to hold it all together but it's a pretty sturdy design and not a huge amount lighter than a wood brood box imo.

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## Adam

I doesn't come with an entrance reducer, but it does seem to be reasonably thought out. There are alignment posts for the floor to brood box. I will probably cut mine off if I go to brood over super this autumn which is my usual over-wintering method. I'm looking forward to getting a colony in mine and seeing how they fare - we'll have to compare notes.

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## Neils

I was going to make up some entrance reducers before spring kicks off, I like to keep all my colonies year round on reduced entrances.

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## GRIZZLY

You will find Nellie that a standard National Brood box will neatly fit inside the recess on the Paynes plastic floor.

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## Neils

That saves me the arduous task of trying it out (there's an empty 14x12 in the back garden)  :Big Grin: 

Another thumbs up for it being a well thought out bit of kit.

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## Neils

One thing that I did notice tonight trying out the poly hive for the first time is that I hate, hate, hate the plastic sheet which replaces a normal crown board in combination with bottom bee space.

Given that the frames, as you'd expect sit flush with the top of the hive, putting the sheet on without trapping bees against the top of the frames was very difficult. This was a swarm so they weren't that interested in sitting on the top bars but on a normal colony, there are always bees wandering over the top of the frames, smoke or not. With a crown board, you have that bee space and only have to worry about bees on the top of the side walls. tonight I was lifting, sliding, shuffling the bloody thing trying not to trap and squash bees.

I did try using a crown board, but they don't fit that well into the roof and, inevitably, I didn't have the strap with me which might have sealed the crown board well enough to the top of the brood box.

It might well just be a case of getting used to it, but I really don't like it at the moment.

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## Jon

I use the plastic unframed queen excluders which most people hate, in combination with bottom bee space so a similar situation.
After an inspection, I put a cover cloth over the open box. I wait about a minute, remove the cloth and place the excluder on. I quickly set the super on top. The bees go down into the box when it is covered with a cloth for a minute. The problem with the plastic sheet is probably the light attracting bees up to the top.

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## Neils

It's also just heavy enough to trap a bee, I'll give a cover cloth a go, but it's a big black mark so far (dare I mention the Bayer logos on the protective cover on the plastic sheet?). I like the polycarbonate crown boards and thought this might be a good idea, but in practice it turns a 2 second job into a 2 minute job.

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## Jon

I find a cover cloth is better than smoke for getting the bees down. Just takes a minute or so and you can get on with something else meanwhile.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> One thing that I did notice tonight trying out the poly hive for the first time is that I hate, hate, hate the plastic sheet which replaces a normal crown board in combination with bottom bee space.


I don't know what kind of poly hive you have - but do you actually need the plastic sheet?  Is the polystyrene roof not sufficient on its own?
Kitta

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## Neils

I'm using payne's. I might try just putting the lid straight on and see how it fares.

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## Adam

> (dare i mention the bayer logos on the protective cover on the plastic sheet?).


no!  :Smile:

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## Adam

I have a MB polyhive and a Paynes one. I do wonder if they are fully thought out. I must be daft as they are not interchangeable. One I will probably get rid of.

The MB hive DOESN'T have a bee space between two brood boxes (it's less than 4 mm so bees will get crushed if frames in the top box are slid across), the frame runners have no space under the top bars so bees get crushed. The opening across for the top bars is 17" or even 16-31/32" (wooden ones are 17-1/8") so the frames are tight and DON'T slide. You can't get 11 frames in unless absolutely brand new with no propolis. A standard queen excluder doesn't fit as the hive recess is too small. The plastic crown board is hopeless and droops as these are top bee space. There is no crown board - therefore no bee escapes for clearing supers. There's also a 12mm bee space between the bottom of a super and the box underneath.
The Paynes one will at least take standard clearer boards etc although they look odd as being too small for the size of box. The roof is not brilliant and the floor has a landing board that's probably too big for migratory beekeeping. 

Something I have noticed in this cold wet spring is if you use anything wooden in the hives it gets soaking wet - this includes frames and in the case of the MB hive I made a ply crown board to put a feeder on; this was covered by an empty super and then the roof on top. The ply was soaking. 
Maybe some ventillation would be beneficial. 
Maybe I take back all I've said against matchsticks!
Maybe I go back to wood as I _like_ wood and I'm not so worried about out and out honey production.

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## Neils

By the sounds of it the payne's is a bit better, I chose that one specifically because it's supposed to be compatible with existing kit and it does seem to be so far. Agree about the roof and after 24 hours the swarm I'd housed in it had the plastic sheet dripping wet but the roof doesn't fit properly over a standard crown board as far as I can see. Possibly defeats the point but might try a standard roof on it.

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## HJBee

I never even knew about polystyrene options, do you thing it would be something a beginner could consider for a second hive. I am only just putting my 1st brand new National together, but thoughts have been going to having a spare with what I've been reading on swarms etc. Will be getting my Nuc in July hopefully.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I never even knew about polystyrene options, do you thing it would be something a beginner could consider  ...


Yes, definitely.  Management of the hives remains the same.  More importantly, I think, is that a beginner should consider what kind of hive they want.  Like everybody I started with Nationals and then decided that I would prefer a one-box system.  I now have some National hives and some polystyrene Langstroths with all-medium boxes - and trying to get to only one kind of hive is a bit difficult.
Kitta

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## fatshark

No problem with poly as a beginner, but make sure you buy compatible kit. Modernbeekeeping are well made but are not easily compatible as they have a lip or overhang on the bottom of the boxes.  Beginners tend to be short of 'spares' so don't make things worse by having stuff that doesn't fit together!

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## GRIZZLY

HJB if you want a poly hive you should buy one that is the same dimensionally (outside dims) the same as a  standard National you should use the ones sold by Murry made by Swienty.You need to buy equipment that is fully interchangeable so that you can use crownboards,supers,queen excluders etc from your wooden National hive.The equipment made by Paynes and Modern Beekeeping ,whilst using standard national frames,are NOT interchangeable with Nationals or each other.They are intended to be self contained systems using all equipment of the same manufacture.I have got 10 M.B. hives and a further 10 Swienty from Murray.The M.B.hives are used as a self contained unit,but,the Swienty hives mix happily with my national equipment.I think you would be better advised to stick nwith wood until you have gained more experiece.

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## HJBee

Thanks for your feedback folks!

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## Neils

The payne's poly nationals are compatible with wooden national kit. The only thing that doesn't seem to fit at the moment is a standard crown board directly under the roof.

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## GRIZZLY

Sorry Nellie,you're not right when you say the paynes hives are interchangeable.They DO take 11 frames -same as a national but,the outside dimensions are larger than a national.you can put national bits on to a paynes but not a paynes on to a national.Remember-most poly hives only take 10 frames and have thicker side walls.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... the outside dimensions are larger than a national.you can put national bits on to a paynes but not a paynes on to a national.Remember-most poly hives only take 10 frames and have thicker side walls.


So they may look a bit ungainly, Grizzly - but does that matter (either way round)?  Or are you saying it's quite impossible?  (I don't have any Paynes hives.)
Kitta

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## Neils

Grizz raises a point (maybe, I don't use double brood so whether a payne's brood box has to be on the bottom, I honestly don't know).

Trying to mix and match kit can be tricky, from my point of view, the payne's kit _is_ interchangeable with my existing national gear, roof and crownboard being the only exception I've found.

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## Bumble

I don't know if our expereine is relevant, because we use Langstroths, but we have both cedar and Swienty polystyrene. The external footprint of the poly is greater than that of the cedar because the walls are thicker, but internally they're exactly the same.

Crown boards (thick acrylic) and both framed and unframed queen excluders for the cedar hives can be used on the poly, leaving a rim of perhaps about half an inch of polystyrene uncovered which doesn't seem a problem. (The measurement is a guess, and I don't plan to brave the rain in the dark to check.) We haven't noticed any problems with rain getting in, maybe because the hive is strapped together.

The cedar roof won't fit the poly, it's too small but the poly roof could possibly be used with the cedar. There would be an overlap round the outside but the polystyrene slab of insulation beneath the metal outer lid would, I think, seal any gaps especially if ratchet straps are used.

The cedar brood box will sit on the poly floor, we haven't tried it the other way round, but think it would look ungainly.

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## nemphlar

4 smiths from coupar angus waiting for painting so easy to assemble and look quite easy to combine DSCF0062.jpg

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## Bridget

Two Delrosa poly hives arrived and it seems a good weekend to be putting them together, varnishing and painting.  Despite there being 8" of fresh snow on the ski slopes (I might just go for a quick slide tomorrow) and a temperature of barely 6 degrees here, a few bees are flying,  just shows how important it is to buy your bees locally - highland raised and hardy with it.  I'll get one poly hive out this weekend in case of swarms and the second one is for the new nuc arriving in July. BTW gave my bees a feed on Monday and hoping to get a full inspection done this weekend - HA HA, fat chance.  But with my new plastic crownboard I should be able to see if they have gone through the syrup yet.

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## nemphlar

Any bees thriving in this weather deserve a gold star, made up 3 frame nuc with queen cell and 2 mini's last weekend, both mini nuc had little clumps around the cells, syrup untouched. So much for speculating on a change in the weather. Weather forecast tomorrow may allow a chance to create few more, it's central heating they need not poly's

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## Neils

Not much better round this neck of the woods if it's any consolation. Tomorrow I will finally get a chance to do my first full inspection of 2012!  I've had a quick peek at a hive here and there, but not had the opportunity to do a full, proper, inspection on any of them. I still do't know for sure if the swarm we picked up nearly two weeks ago came from one of mine.

Ho hum.

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## Adam

> Any bees thriving in this weather deserve a gold star, made up 3 frame nuc with queen cell and 2 mini's last weekend, both mini nuc had little clumps around the cells, syrup untouched. So much for speculating on a change in the weather. Weather forecast tomorrow may allow a chance to create few more, it's central heating they need not poly's


One early queencell went into a mini nuc a while ago and last week the weather touched 20 degrees for just a day. 5 days later there were  lying-down eggs - so 2 or 3 days old. So she slipped out and did the business.  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

Old thread but no point starting a new one eh..? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Just bought 5 Denrosa/Swienty Nationals with 1 matching feeder and another 4 to follow on order.  Just wondering if I could screw a thin batten around the outside of the bottom of the feeder to create a bee space.  Will the screws grip in the poly?  Or will I need glue as well?  Don't want to go drilling holes in the stuff if it's not going to work!

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## Bumble

Why does it need to be attached? Can't you make a thin eke or five, or put the feeder on top of a queen excluder?

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## drumgerry

Hi Bumble - planning to use the feeders as crownboards and it'd be easier taking them on and off if the thing was attached.  A square frame of thin battens isn't exactly the strongest structure either - but I suppose it would do in a pinch.  And the queen excluders are going to be in use in season.

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## Poly Hive

I have done severl successful mods and repairs using screws and glue and it works very well, just be aware that the drill bit needs to be under size, so for a 6mm hole try a 4mm bit first. 

PH

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## drumgerry

Many thanks PH - I was hoping you might reply as well!

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## Poly Hive

If you specifically want my comments then at times it will be more speedy to mail me via my site as it can be days before I read this site. 

PH

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## emcampbell

Morning all.

Rejuvenating this thread. So I have a MB poly lang and its currently on 2 brood boxes and super on top. 

I am starting to think the Queen excluder (crappy flimsy plastic thing as supplied) is hindering the bees filling the supers and here's why. I put it on a few weeks back with a super of undrawn foundation on top. Its a bit saggy but I'm not experienced in this honey milarky so didnt think this was odd. Nothing happened and nothing drawn, not even a handful of bees had investigated after a week even though the weather has been cracking. So I removed the excluder and put some of the undrawn super frames into the 2nd brood box to get them to start drawing. Wee peek after a day and fully drawn and they had even started on the frames in the super. Bingo thought I. So I repeated the swap and ended up with 8 drawn frames up in the super with some honey getting stored as well. I then added the excluder again at this point and low and behold after checking last night they have removed all the honey back down stairs and very few bees in the super. I might just take it out and let them get on with it ....thoughts ?

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## prakel

I've no personal experience with the MB hives but a couple of thoughts:

I'd probably agree with your thinking. If personal experience is showing that it's hindering storage, consign it to the back of the shed until you have that eureka moment when you find a use for it.

Another possibility to consider (taking your local climate into account) might be to take advantage of the reversible nature of the MB roofs and use a top entrance so as to bypass the excluder -it won't be long before the bulk of the workforce show their preference...

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## emcampbell

> I've no personal experience with the MB hives but a couple of thoughts:
> 
> I'd probably agree with your thinking. If personal experience is showing that it's hindering storage, consign it to the back of the shed until you have that eureka moment when you find a use for it.
> 
> Another possibility to consider (taking your local climate into account) might be to take advantage of the reversible nature of the MB roofs and use a top entrance so as to bypass the excluder -it won't be long before the bulk of the workforce show their preference...


That is a really cool suggestion. Especially if the weather stays nice as the added loss of heat out the top might not make too much difference. So you would leave both entrances and then expect them to start using the top ? 

Nothing ventured nothing gained  :Smile:

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## prakel

Hi, yes, I do leave both entrances open(on wooden hives). Some will suggest closing the bottom entrance but that just adds more work (drones wanting to get out, supercedure queens not able to mate...). There's always some variation between colonies but in my experience most show a definite preference for using an upper entrance.

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## Poly Hive

I thought I might address a couple of misconceptions. 

Polys actually have a longer broodless period than timber hives in my experience. The reason for that happening as far as I can determine is water. If that makes you blink then possibly reading Mobus on wintering may be useful to you. 
http://poly-hive.co.uk/damp-condensa...inter-cluster/

Blowing away. I had to laugh at this one. Why would a 100lb hive blow away? The roof might but I find that usually one brick on the roof is enough to keep it on but for winter I put on two and there they stay. Plus I use my bricks to tell me stories in a code so they are dual purpose. 

Nor are bees so susceptible to isolation starvation as they do not cluster so tightly for so long as they are warmer. I have  lifted CB's in minus 5C and the bees are strolling about quite loose. Nice to see. 

Yes bees do winter better in poly and they behave in it in rather different ways. This year as per norm a swarm began comb building on the frame side next to the side wall. Colonies routinely have brood next to the walls due to the warmth of the material. 

Sterilisation has been covered by the authorities here: https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/bee...cfm?pageid=167 2nd from the bottom of the list. Virkon S is good for general work including EFB but not for AFB for which a hypoclorite solution is recommended. 

A purchasing hint is if the roof is thinner than 40mm then I would not buy one. Something else that is ignored is that OMF floors should be used in conjunction with top insulation esp with timber units. 

There is a reasonable body of work on poly units on my site. poly-hive.co.uk

PH

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Pete
I don't have any Poly hives as they don't smell nice enough for my tastes but I have been doing some reading up at your very good website ,and the bit about beeways/beespace in Winter was very interesting and new(to me)
TW Cowan recommended 1 & 3/4 inch between centre of frames for overwintering which was so vague really that it just skipped my attention till I read your site then it made some sense  :Smile:

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## Poly Hive

Really it is all about water and optimum cluster size. Too big and they fail, too weak and same same. 

PH

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## Richard Woodall

I am planning to start beekeeping with MB Paradise Langstroths but so far have been unable to find anyone local to visit.  I don't want to be totally isolated with no one to ask if something specific to these hives goes wrong.  I note that Prakel lives on the Jurassic coast and so do I - Owermoigne, near Dorchester - Although in his last post in July last year he had no experience of MB hives, I do hope that numbers are growing and he or someone else may have a suggestion or two.

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## GRIZZLY

M B hives are top bee space and the  Q  excluder they supply is a soft floppy plastic thing. The best solution is to frame the excluder on the top face ensuring that a batten is included at right angles to the slots to support the centre of the beast and prevent sagging. I used to use M B hives but quickly changed over to Swienty poly hives as these are completely interchangeably with my wooden national bits and don't cause me with compatibility problems.

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## Black Comb

I have used MB polynucs for several years and think they are good.
However, I would not use the full hives as they have a "lip" which makes interchangeability more difficult (as grizzly says).
Also, the bee space seems to be half way between top and bottom.
Plus, the supers take dadant depth frame if my memory is correct.
Agree with grizzly about the QE.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I am planning to start beekeeping with MB Paradise Langstroths ...


To add to what Grizzly and Blackcomb have said: If you do choose to use the MB Langstroths, I would suggest that you do not use their Langstroth frames.

The top bar is one depth throughout - that means the lugs are the same depth as the main top bar, and that in turn means that the whole frame is lifted a fraction thereby losing the Langstroth top bee space for something in-between: half top and half bottom.  If you then want to change to the usual kind of frame, you might have a bee-space problem.

There is no removable wedge in the MB frames to help secure the foundation as in the more common Langstroth and National frames.  The foundation simply fits in grooves between the top and bottom bars, and is secured with frame wire.  It could be that I wasn't very good at fixing the foundation to the wire (I used the spur embedder) - but I've had foundation flopping out before the bees managed to secure it.

And finally - the last lot of frames I bought from them were really, really lousy.  I might have been unlucky.

Kitta

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## prakel

> I am planning to start beekeeping with MB Paradise Langstroths but so far have been unable to find anyone local to visit.  I don't want to be totally isolated with no one to ask if something specific to these hives goes wrong.  I note that Prakel lives on the Jurassic coast and so do I - Owermoigne, near Dorchester - Although in his last post in July last year he had no experience of MB hives, I do hope that numbers are growing and he or someone else may have a suggestion or two.


Hi Richard, nice to see you here. 

I still have no experience of these Paradise boxes and to be honest, that's probably the way it'll stay... If I was going to invest in polystyrene then I'd need either: 

a) a high level of compatibility with wooden hives or 
b) a good price for the kit to make it worth having them as stand-alone hives. At present I believe that the individual boxes from MB (I'd simply have to make my own floors because I can't see the point of paying +/-£20 for an insulated floor with a mesh covered hole in the middle) actually cost more than the equivalent 'Swienty' langstroth boxes from Paynes bee supplies.

As things stand, I doubt very much that I'll venture down this poly hive route simply because my bees seem to thrive in their existing wooden boxes, also while looking at the various poly options (none of which were a perfect match for my existing hives) I asked myself "what hive would I use if I was starting again totally from scratch" my answer: commercial (16X10). There aren't any commercial poly hives at present, so that made me really think about what it is I actually want from a hive.

Good luck with your own bee adventure.

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## robin118

I have got 20 mb poly Langstroths. I have used them for 4 years and would not recommend them. If i could go back I would probably go for swienty Langstroths but have no experience of them.

M.B. Langstroths are neither top or bottom bee space making them incompatible with other wooden and poly langstroths. They have a lip on the top of the boxs that fits into a groove on the bottom of the box above. This makes them secure when strapped for moving but makes it hard to put boxes, roofs, feeders on without squashing bees. The feeders only have the lip on three sides so they let in water if left on over winter and because the lip is only on three sides the feeder can not be upturned to feed fondant. If you use a perspex crown board sold by mb dont put it on top of the feeder because of the three lips there is a gap just big enough for bees to find their way in drowning a lot and also causing robbing. They are made from high density poly though and even though they have short comings my bees do well in them and this has not put me of using poly but if going for a full size hive ( I have not used the m b nucs but have heard good thing about them) I would choose another manufacturer.
I hope this makes sense and helps.

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