# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  SBA AGM motion on a moratorium on neonicotinoids

## gavin

Well, I'm still sitting in the AGM in Perth but we had a discussion and vote on what you might call Eric's Motion, committing the organisation to demand that the Scottish Government put in place a moratorium on the use of neonicotinoids. Maybe someone can put up the exact wording. 

 For (Eric's motion) - 31
 Against - 34
 Abstentions - 5

There you are then, a real democratic vote by beekeepers on the topic of banning neonicotinoids. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## Jon

I heard there were 34 masons in the room.

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## brothermoo

> I heard there were 34 masons in the room.



You can tell those masons a mile off.. their hives are perfectly straight, owing to the use of set squares
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## The Drone Ranger

Close Vote though could go the other way next time

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## Trog

I think the vote fairly reflected the views of the membership.  Presumably, though, if it had been a really hot topic among beekeepers there would have been a bigger turnout for both the debate and the vote.

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## drumgerry

All together now,

"Who's the mason in the beesuit?
Who's the mason...?
Who's the mason...?
Who's the mason in the beesuit?"

Need to try that one at Parkhead next time!

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## Jon

> I think the vote fairly reflected the views of the membership.  Presumably, though, if it had been a really hot topic among beekeepers there would have been a bigger turnout for both the debate and the vote.


Anyone know the total membership?

The ubka has about 650 members between 11 associations.
The only hot topic in the ubka is how to get something for nothing or how to get in somewhere without paying.

Gerry, any Freemason worth his salt can split himself by binary fission and swing a close vote.
They are a bag of tricks and need to be watched at all times.
You need to count how many enter the room and check how many leave, before doing the arithmetic and making the necessary adjustment to maintain the integrity of the democratic process.
Otherwise the SBA might as well be run by Mugabe.

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## Trog

Is that the same as people having more than one shadow, Jon? ... or does that only apply in libraries?

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## drumgerry

> Otherwise the SBA might as well be run by Mugabe.


Jon - you couldn't be more wrong there.  The SBA is run by the Illuminati (the same crew who just got their choice of Pope elected!).

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## Jon

Noone has mentioned Opus Dei yet so in the interests of balance, I have just mentioned them.
Why should the Freemasons and this upstart Illuminati get to hog the limelight not to mention the ballot boxes.
It must have been like a medieval soup in Perth today.
Gavin needs to supply a proper match report in the style of Stuart Hall, a man no stranger to pecadillos himself but perhaps beyond the help of any influential cult at this stage in his broadcasting career.

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## gavin

Dontcha just love banter?   :Big Grin: 




> Anyone know the total membership?


1536 according to the Membership Secretary and President just a few short hours ago.

Does it reflect the views of the membership?  I have to say that I was quite surprised at the way it went, partly because when I walked into the room I saw a particularly good representation from the associations in the west that have already expressed a preference for Eric's motion.  I guess that it is fair to say that (OK, several people told me) those who had been fairly disinterested did learn from the debate this afternoon.  There were Big Guns (can I claim to be one?) speaking for both sides.

OK, Eric's motion as printed in the Scottish Beekeeper:

_That the Scottish Beekeepers' Association petition the Scottish Government to invoke a moratorium on the use of the pesticides known as neonicotinoids until it is established that these substances do not have an unacceptably long half-life in the soil and that they do not damage pollinators or the soil dwelling organisms on which soil fertility depends._

Now then, I'm happy to discuss the implications of this further here but in the longer run I'd like to see the organisation put this behind it and try to heal some of the wounds this issue and similar have brought.  I've invited Eric and other beekeepers without experience of seeing bees on OSR to come to see my bees on OSR in May, and perhaps have a picnic lunch in the orchard (my treat!).  Although the offer wasn't well received it is still open and was well meant.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to speak to you Doris, but I would have been friendly if I had.  Thought that you were looking great  :Wink:

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## gavin

> Noone has mentioned Opus Dei yet so in the interests of balance, I have just mentioned them.
> Why should the Freemasons and this upstart Illuminati get to hog the limelight not to mention the ballot boxes.
> It must have been like a medieval soup in Perth today.
> Gavin needs to supply a proper match report in the style of Stuart Hall, a man no stranger to pecadillos himself but perhaps beyond the help of any influential cult at this stage in his broadcasting career.


LOL!  (several more helpless chesty LOLs .... and a few sideways leery looks at the young ladies in the audience ..... )  Will that do for a Stuart Hall impersonation?!

I'm feeling bashful, as I did participate in the debate.  Maybe someone else would like to summarise?

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## gavin

Doris, in case you do feel like contributing, it wasn't until after I left that it struck me that the man sitting beside you (the one not called Eric) might be JTF.  If it was I had a completely different mental image of him.  Was it?  Do tell!

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## Trog

Did things remain civilised over the tea and biccies afterwards?

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## gavin

There was me talking about healing wounds and you ask me that!  

From the Chair, Phil said that he welcomed the way the debate had been conducted, and I whispered to the Inverness guy beside me - He wasn't listening in to Eric and me at tea time, then!

I can confirm that no blows were traded, and that I tried to be friendly - but that is as far as I'll go.

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## Jon

Were many of the forum regulars at the meeting?
The vast majority of the beekeepers I know have little or no interest in internet bee stuff or bee forums.
I said hello to Phil McA last weekend at the UBKA event but did not get time for any further chatter.

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## Trog

Difficult to trade blows while juggling tiny teacups, saucers and a jammy dodger  :Wink:

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## gavin

Well, there was a Kate, and a Jimbo (neither likely home yet, maybe Jim is .. ) and a Trog (ish, can't explain that one to you), and a whole list of folk who post once in a while or just lurk .... and a couple who used to post but don't now ...... and maybe a pile who will post one day?

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## gavin

Physical contact was indeed made, but it came in the form of a kindly attempt to usher me away from Eric by a lovely man who may have some McArthurian sympathies but is a kind and gentle soul who sensed trouble.  Shan't name him but he is retiring from his excellent service for the association.

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## Trog

I can think of two gentlemen (in the full sense of the word) who fit the bill.  They will both be missed  :Frown:

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## gavin

They will, but they will both be still around.  Thankfully I'm likely to see both fairly frequently through one or other local activity.

Only one of them has much expressed sympathy with Eric's views   :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

possibly bees might not be the creature most at risk.
How about hedgehogs etc.
they eat lots of ground dwelling insects etc.

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## Jon

Hi DR
One thing that is emerging re. neonicotinoids is that other species such as bumble bees and some other pollinators react differently from honey bees.
Dave Goulson's study, (Whitehorn et al) found that bumble bees made smaller colonies and produced fewer queens when fed imidacloprid in a semi field type experiment.

A more recent study of his also noted behavioural changes in flies and spiders.




> Here we describe a simple experiment using paired yellow pan traps with or without insecticide to assess whether the commonly used neonicotinoid imidacloprid repels or attracts flying insects. Both Diptera and Coleoptera exhibited marked avoidance of traps containing imidacloprid at a field-realistic dose of 1 µg L−1, with Diptera avoiding concentrations as low as 0.01 µg L−1


The irritating thing is that the single issue people have latched on to honey bees arguing that crops like oil seed rape are harmful to bees when they are actually of benefit.

In Canada they grow over 7.5 million hectares of canola.
It is the source of the main honey crop in Canada and the commercial beekeepers move tens of thousands of hives to this crop.
Other than some incidents with planter dust, bees in Canada thrive on this and have done for many years.
Arguing that seed treated Oil seed rape is bad for bees is disingenuous.
The anti neonicotinoid campaigners shoot themselves in the foot by overstating their claims of risk to honey bees.

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## Stromnessbees

This was indeed an interesting AGM

Now that  a lot of members have seen with their own eyes, that* nearly the whole SBA executive is against a moratorium to invoke the precautionary principle with regards to neonics*, they might become very concerned.

These are some of the hands I saw raised against the motion:

[Here Doris named five member of the Executive who she said had voted in that way.  We do not have their permission to publish their names on a public forum]
etc. 

Very worrying indeed.

And maybe questions need to be asked regarding due procedure:

Can the rule that voters have to show their current Moir cards be overturned as easily as it was yesterday?

A quick proposal by Phil McAnespie that a count of hands should do might have had serious consequences:

Can we be sure that all hands raised belonged to fully paid up members?
What if the covert industry representatives brought along some 'well meaning friends' to help defeat the motion?

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## chris

> That the Scottish Beekeepers' Association petition the Scottish Government to invoke a moratorium on the use of the pesticides known as neonicotinoids until it is established that these substances do not have an unacceptably long half-life in the soil and that they do not damage pollinators or the soil dwelling organisms on which soil fertility depends


How are notions such as "unacceptably long half-life" (and unacceptable to whom?)  and "damage pollinators or the soil dwelling organisms"  (damage being possible on a very variable scale) defined?

I'm not being facetious.

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## Jon

So paraphrasing post 24, you support democracy when you get your own way but you question it when you don't.




> 'well meaning friends'


You never give up on the conspiracy.
Were they Freemasons or Bayer black op agents!

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## Stromnessbees

> Were they Freemasons or Bayer black op agents!


Most likely some of both.

- And I am not joking.

Remember, we are dealing with a billion-dollar industry, they will use whichever methods they can to keep selling their poisons.

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## Stromnessbees

> How are notions such as "unacceptably long half-life" (and unacceptable to whom?)  and "damage pollinators or the soil dwelling organisms"  (damage being possible on a very variable scale) defined?


The current European rule for allowed half life in the soil is 180 days.
This means that under current EU legislation those chemicals wouldn't stand any chance of being approved.

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## Trog

> This was indeed an interesting AGM
> 
> Now that  a lot of members have seen with their own eyes, that* nearly the whole SBA executive is against a moratorium to invoke the precautionary principle with regards to neonics*, they might become very concerned.
> 
> These are some of the hands I saw raised against the motion:
> 
> [see my edit above]
> etc. 
> 
> ...


Doris, that sort of comment is WELL OUT OF ORDER.  One of the Exec spoke  *in favour* of Eric's motion.  Did you not notice that?  Who are these mysterious 'covert industry representatives'?  Everyone present signed the attendance list.  The membership convener is able to check all these names against the subs list.  Would you like me to ask him to do so?  That should knock that particular conspiracy theory on the head, shouldn't it?

As far as I know all exec members have only their individual votes as SBA members, same as everyone else.  There are no extra votes made by or on behalf of the exec.

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## Stromnessbees

> Doris, that sort of comment is WELL OUT OF ORDER.  One of the Exec spoke  *in favour* of Eric's motion.


Yes, [that Exec member] supported the motion and he spoke very well.

But Phil Moss, whose primary interest should be the health of out bees, held a passionate speech against the motion, claiming that OSR had unmissable benefits for beekeepers despite the health concerns. 





> Who are these mysterious 'covert industry representatives'?  Everyone present signed the attendance list.  The membership convener is able to check all these names against the subs list.  Would you like me to ask him to do so?


Yes, I would like the list of attendants checked against the list of fully paid up subscriptions. 
*
If there is a discrepancy I think we need to repeat the vote.* 


With regards to connections to industry:

This point has been raised repeatedly, but to no avail.
Several prominent members of the SBA are working or have been connected to jobs in plant research. There are issues of possible influences, but I have yet to see any of them abstain from voting, as required by the rules.

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## drumgerry

> What if the covert industry representatives brought along some 'well meaning friends' to help defeat the motion?


Can't someone put a stop to this ridiculousness?  Fair enough if you want to post this sort of rubbish on Biobees but here?  You're turning this into a utter farce.

As far as I can see you didn't get your own way and now you're crying foul.

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## drumgerry

> Yes, Ian Craig supported the motion and he spoke very well.
> 
> But Phil Moss, whose primary interest should be the health of out bees, held a passionate speech against the motion, claiming that OSR had unmissable benefits for beekeepers despite the health concerns. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I would like the list of attendants checked against the list of fully paid up subscriptions. 
> *
> ...


Right there you're in the the realms of defamation Doris.  You'd better hope that the people you're maligning aren't of a litigious mindset.  And it's not the sort of thing the moderators of a forum should be tolerating.

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## Stromnessbees

> Right there you're in the the realms of defamation Doris.  You'd better hope that the people you're maligning aren't of a litigious mindset.  And it's not the sort of thing the moderators of a forum should be tolerating.


We'll see what other members have to say about the issue, in the meantime I will send a request to check the list of attendants.

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## Jon

binary fission

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## drumgerry

More like nuclear meltdown Jon!

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## Stromnessbees

Anyway, what harm could there be in repeating the vote?

If all procedures were correct, then surely the outcome of a repeat vote should be the same.

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## drumgerry

Doris  - you lost.  Try again at next year's AGM.  Just because a result isn't to your liking doesn't mean you get to have another try!

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## Black Comb

Shades of EU type "democracy" methinks.
Same treatment as Ireland received from the EU, when a democratic vote went the "wrong" way, just keep holding it again until it goes the "right" way.

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## Jimbo

Doris. I have been attending the SBA AGM for over 12 years as well as my friend Ben for over 35 years. I can assure you that the only unknown faces in the room were from some members of an association in the west who actually voted for Eric's motion but did not even stay for the further discusion on the constitution. It will be interesting if we see the these same faces turn up again at subsequent SBA events.
In my opinion the discussion for and against the motion was conducted in a fair manner as well as the vote.

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## Trog

That's very interesting, Jimbo.  I couldn't see all the room but did notice that there were a lot of empty chairs after the 'key' vote. I charitably assumed it was because folk were trying to get home in poor weather before it got dark.

I think the fact that out of the entire membership only 60-something members felt the vote was worth turning up for at all (and that's not allowing for the fact that many of those would attend the AGM anyway as they have always done) indicates that the neonics debate is not top of most beekeepers' priority list.  Let's face it, the majority of members are within easy reach of Perth and there was Skype for those who are not.

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## Trog

> Most likely some of both.
> 
> - And I am not joking.
> 
> Remember, we are dealing with a billion-dollar industry, they will use whichever methods they can to keep selling their poisons.


Well, Doris, I was completely unaware that women (and you have named two in your list) can now be fully-fledged freemasons.  Thank you for that astonishing piece of information.  I was at the AGM.  Does that mean I'm a freemason, too, by default?

[I see from wikipedia that there is a form of female freemasonry but it doesn't appear to be fully accepted by the chaps in this country]

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## Bumble

> With regards to connections to industry:
> 
> This point has been raised repeatedly, but to no avail.
> Several prominent members of the SBA are working or have been connected to jobs in plant research. There are issues of possible influences, but I have yet to see any of them abstain from voting, as required by the rules.


Wow! That's suggesting a whole lot of nasty things.

What about people who work in supermarkets, or garden centres, or small plant nurseries that sell products to the general public? I suppose they should be excluded too, along with everybody who has a garden and isn't wholeheartedly 'organic'.

The moment you start trying to exclude people from voting because of their backgrounds or outside interests, you open a whole can of worms - and you'd probably be excluded too, because you're a vociferous international internet 'campaigner' who wants only one outcome. You only want people to think in one direction, you want them to do your bidding, you don't want them to look up research or think for themselves and make up their own minds.




> Phil Moss, whose primary interest should be the health of out bees, held a passionate speech against the motion, claiming that OSR had unmissable benefits for beekeepers despite the health concerns.


It's true. For some people OSR provides their main or only honey crop. Without it they, and their bees, would get next to nothing to overwinter apart from sugar syrup.




> Yes, I would like the list of attendants checked against the list of fully paid up subscriptions. 
> *If there is a discrepancy I think we need to repeat the vote.*


Do you mean you'd try to make sure there were enough 'right minded' people to make the vote go in the direction *you* want it to go?

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## Jon

> It's true. For some people OSR provides their main or only honey crop. Without it they, and their bees, would get next to nothing to overwinter apart from sugar syrup.


7.5 million hectares of seed treated oil seed rape in Canada.
If there was a problem with that crop there would not be a colony left alive.

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## gavin

And that is largely the spring rape that I was willing to question yesterday.

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## EmsE

Id just like to say that as an SBA member I have total confidence in our President and his committee and truly believe his integrity remains in tact. In my view, by voting against the proposal, it is protecting the SBA from those who wish to hijack the association for their own personal means. The SBA as far as I know is not a campaigning or a political association and should refrain from becoming so. It's an association of bee keepers with wildly varying personal points of view. If people wish to campaign on a particular issue- good for them- they're free to do so. However, for those who chose a different stance, that view should also be respected.
I don't know Phil Moss personally, but he too gets my vote of confidence and from what I have seen of him, reading his articles in the SBA magazine etc, he certainly comes across as a level headed person with the bees welfare in mind; not the kind of person who abuses his position to shove his own personal hobby horse down people's throats.

Edit- ps- I've not known the moir library card be mandatory for voting at the AGM's I've attended (although technically you should have it with you to vote) so would have thought things were a bit odd it it had been compulsory this time.

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## gavin

The team moderating the site has discussed today's posts and are agreed that Doris has crossed the line.  Given that her partner Johnthefarmer was recently banned for making accusations of corruption against a forum member, she will be very well aware why she has been banned. These bans are permanent.

She has indicated that she intends taking up the matter of the conduct of the vote with the President.  That is her right, but she will find that it was done in the best way possible under the rules of the association.

Personally, I regret that she has embarrassed herself in this way on SBAi and on several other bee fora, some of which have felt obliged to restrict or prevent her posts. 

OK, carry on folks but please try to be nice ....

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## Trog

> Id just like to say that as an SBA member I have total confidence in our President and his committee and truly believe his integrity remains in tact. In my view, by voting against the proposal, it is protecting the SBA from those who wish to hijack the association for their own personal means. The SBA as far as I know is not a campaigning or a political association and should refrain from becoming so. It's an association of bee keepers with wildly varying personal points of view. If people wish to campaign on a particular issue- good for them- they're free to do so. However, for those who chose a different stance, that view should also be respected..


Well said, EmsE.  I nearly left the SBA in the days when the magazine seemed full of nothing but anti-GM rants (whatever happened?  Is GM still evil or are neonics the new bogeymen?) and certainly would leave if it became a campaigning organisation rather than one that helps us to keep bees better.  As for the neonics debate, I'm not yet convinced either way but remain open to any credible evidence.

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## drumgerry

I think if you take Doris and JTF out of the equation, which the moderators have had to do, pretty much everyone on this forum acts in a reasonable, rational manner.  We might not agree with each other on every single matter but at least we know how to have a discussion without it venturing into the realms of cloud cuckoo land.

And whilst I'm not especially keen on pesticide use and vast fields of monoculture,I live in the real world and accept that these things exist.  If *conclusive* proof comes along that neonics are the bee holocaust they are made out to be I'll be the first to sign up for them to be banned.

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## Jon

I think it is far more likely that if a problem emerges with neonicotinoids it will be a problem with pollinators or invertebrates other than honey bees.
That is probably the biggest knowledge gap which needs to be filled.
If you read the US forum beesource, most of the commercial beekeepers are saying that their bees are doing ok surrounded by seed treated maize.
They are very wary of planter dust issues during seed drilling and this is still causing problems.
There are a few still blaming Neonicotinoids such as Dave Hackenberg and Tom Theobold who will be familiar to all from the youtube videos posted everywhere by the campaigners.
The problems reported by most are the problems associated with roundup ready monoculture, ie no flowering weeds in or around the crops to provide bees with a varied pollen source. That is an issue relating to bees and GM crops, Trog.
Michael Bush, well known natural beekeeper, posted the other day that neonicotinoids are unlikely to be a smoking gun and he reckoned one of the fungicides was a far bigger problem for honey bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

I am not an SBA member so if I was banned that might be fair enough
On the whole though I think the forum is an SBA one so members shouldn't be banned
It take two to argue and (tango)
When Eric McArthur was banned I thought that was a bit harsh as well
I realise it's not going to be a popular viewpoint but I would urge re-instatement
Nobody takes any notice of over the top statements they in fact weaken the persons case
Unfortunately bans do the same thing ultimately

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## Trog

I have to admit I agree with your sentiments, DR, but every forum has a code of sorts to which one agrees when signing up.  Spamming and making wild accusations against individuals are not allowed on any forum as far as I know, hence the bans are reasonable under the rules.

Bright idea alert: maybe the current forum members should vote on whether to allow Eric/Doris back?  Maybe to a thread that is 'hidden' from the current topics feed but to which anyone who wanted an argument could go if they so wished.  That would leave all but that tiny part visible to allcomers but save folk wanting to find out about beekeeping/discuss same from seeing nothing but wild posts and counter-posts.

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## chris

There is no reasonable argument that will dissuade people who hold extreme views. Holding an extreme view is not reasonable. Unfortuneately, at the moment it's the bee that's in their bonnet. When I did volunteer work for Greenpeace, it was the dolphin. We tried turtles and whales and all sorts of things, but it was always the dolphin that brought in peoples' sympathy (and opened their purses). Right now the campaigners are latching on to bees, and it's the bee forums that suffer. I'm sure that noone, besides those who have been banned, comes here for anything other than bee discussion. Let's keep this forum for bee discussions- there are enough other places to tango (even if the band's playing a waltz).In spite of all my commitments to organic farming and other greenery, I'm inclined to say throw out the environment section. But that's a bit extreme, so not reasonable.

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## gavin

> I have to admit I agree with your sentiments, DR, but every forum has a code of sorts to which one agrees when signing up.  Spamming and making wild accusations against individuals are not allowed on any forum as far as I know, hence the bans are reasonable under the rules.
> 
> Bright idea alert: maybe the current forum members should vote on whether to allow Eric/Doris back?  Maybe to a thread that is 'hidden' from the current topics feed but to which anyone who wanted an argument could go if they so wished.  That would leave all but that tiny part visible to allcomers but save folk wanting to find out about beekeeping/discuss same from seeing nothing but wild posts and counter-posts.


Not such a bright idea.  You can't run a forum on the basis of voting for every management decision (or even just the big ones).  We have a means of making the important decisions that shares the burden between a few individuals chosen for their level-headedness and their commitment to the forum.  Our decision is final!  Not only that, we have agreed that future bans are permanent and no amount of pleading or campaigning (dare I say that word) will reverse the decision.  Doris and JTF have gone.  Move on.

DR - I regret that we unbanned Eric after a few people, including you, suggested it.  He showed on the Beekeeping Forum that he still can't behave himself and if he came on here it wouldn't be long before the forum would once again be affected badly by that.  I think that it was during your winter hibernation and it was not pretty.

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## The Drone Ranger

You might be right maybe the people in question would be better to start their own forum.

I must admit some other forums which I have read, the posts were a lot worse than here but it's possibly a slippery slope.

I'm not a fan of oil seed rape because my whole beekeeping season is governed by and controlled by it.
I would love a bit of lime honey or something, but no, lots of rape fields mean the bees are totally absorbed harvesting it.

The total oil seed rape crop has increased tremendously but the acreage devoted to it has remained much the same according to the Scottish Government stats
The subsidy appears to be per hectare so perhaps the argument for stopping using seed dressing wouldn't affect farmers income as much as we think ??

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## gavin

> You might be right maybe the people in question would be better to start their own forum.
> 
> I must admit some other forums which I have read, the posts were a lot worse than here but it's possibly a slippery slope.
> 
> I'm not a fan of oil seed rape because my whole beekeeping season is governed by and controlled by it.
> I would love a bit of lime honey or something, but no, lots of rape fields mean the bees are totally absorbed harvesting it.
> 
> The total oil seed rape crop has increased tremendously but the acreage devoted to it has remained much the same according to the Scottish Government stats
> The subsidy appears to be per hectare so perhaps the argument for stopping using seed dressing wouldn't affect farmers income as much as we think ??


Doris already uses Biobees where she can find several like minds and they can fantasise about various conspiracies all day long.  This *is* the thinking beekeeper's internet forum, and we're proud of it and grateful to those who put in the time to make it just that and also, at times, a fun place to be.  You are part of that too.

My bees forage on oilseed rape then, about a month or in fact a little more later, there is a chance of lime honey.  I actually got some last year (mmmmm .... mmmmmm!).  The only way rape gets in the way is if there is spring rape in your area.  Here spring rape doesn't happen, but this year I suppose it might as so many farmers have been unable to get machinery of any description on their land since last summer.  Many fewer winter crop fields than usual, and even trouble preparing the ground for spring ones.  Spring rape is the last gasp for arable farmers, something that gives a crop of some kind even when planted later in April.

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## Jon

> Doris already uses Biobees where she can find several like minds and they can fantasise about various conspiracies all day long.


The conspiracy theory is positively welcomed there and in that sense it is a useful escape valve as it allows people to vent without annoying too many others, although having said that, the Freemason neonicotinoid thread was a conspiracy too far for many of the regulars who reckoned, rightly, that it was setting the natural beekeeping movement up for complete ridicule. There are a few sensible heads posting there but it is very difficult to go against the flow as there are half a dozen posters who attack anyone who expresses a differing opinion, that includes some of the moderators. I did try to engage in genuine debate but it is next to impossible when there are so many who indulge in personal attacks.
You just give up after a while.
I noticed today a 'Buddhist' poster had a go at an Irish poster calling him 'Paddy Boy'.
Maybe needs a refresher course on enlightenment.
How on earth are you supposed to moderate that sort of exchange unless you are prepared to ban posters.
Racist comments deserve an automatic ban in my book although quite a few have got away with it on BKF as well.

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## gavin

Absolutely to that last comment.

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## brothermoo

> Racist comments deserve an automatic ban in my book


So does that mean I can't write less than favourable comments about those bees not of Amm?
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## Jon

Feel free BM!
But it's not the fault of the bee. It's the beekeeper who elects to hive the colony in an inappropriate location.

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## brothermoo

So immigration is the issue there then!  :Big Grin: 

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## Jon

I wouldn't go there with regard to bees as someone will take the wrong end of the stick even if said in jest!

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## Easy beesy

I'm all for free speech, but did the banned ones post anything that wasn't about their pet hate?  I am not the most experienced forummer so I may have missed their helpful advice, humorous posts and general discussions on here?

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## madasafish

> The conspiracy theory is positively welcomed there and in that sense it is a useful escape valve as it allows people to vent without annoying too many others, although having said that, the Freemason neonicotinoid thread was a conspiracy too far for many of the regulars who reckoned, rightly, that it was setting the natural beekeeping movement up for complete ridicule. There are a few sensible heads posting there but it is very difficult to go against the flow as there are half a dozen posters who attack anyone who expresses a differing opinion, that includes some of the moderators. I did try to engage in genuine debate but it is next to impossible when there are so many who indulge in personal attacks.
> You just give up after a while.
> I noticed today a 'Buddhist' poster had a go at an Irish poster calling him 'Paddy Boy'.
> Maybe needs a refresher course on enlightenment.
> How on earth are you supposed to moderate that sort of exchange unless you are prepared to ban posters.
> Racist comments deserve an automatic ban in my book although quite a few have got away with it on BKF as well.


I have given up on them.

Tolerating odd views is one thing, attacking anyone who disagrees with those views seems to me to be counter productive.

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## gavin

Doris was a welcome and useful poster before she became obsessed with neonics.  That is the main reason we tolerated her outbursts last year.  John is an organic farmer with some of Doris' bees on his land.  Neither can now speak for themselves on here so let's leave them alone.

Phil has responded to Doris off the forum, which is entirely right in my view.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My bees forage on oilseed rape then, about a month or in fact a little more later, there is a chance of lime honey.  I actually got some last year (mmmmm .... mmmmmm!).  The only way rape gets in the way is if there is spring rape in your area. .


your lucky Did you have to move them or was the lime on your doorstep

I find by the time the rape is part capped then spun out, the supers put back for cleaning up.
There is plenty beekeeping ahead but not much chance of more honey.

Rape is also responsible indirectly for a lot of queen imports by commercial beekeepers who are trying to stay ahead of the curve.

When phacelia was common there was a subsidy paid to grow it unfortunately there was a glut of the oil extracted and its not grown much now.

In an interview Murray Mcgregor did for "the Barefoot Beekeeper" about the Co-op bee project he says he needs to import from New Zealand because of rape.

I'm not a rabid anti rape campaigner because without it I would be worse off but if the subsidy it received went to something else I might like that better.

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## gavin

Hi DR

My bees are on an estate with a goodly number of lime trees so they stay put, at least until heather time.  It is often a toss-up whether to stay for the end of the lime or go to the heather in late July.  They don't usually yield much, but last year I had one colony very strong (Demaree is the thing, never went near a Snelgrove!) and with the ground damp all the way through they brought in nearly a super of cut comb lime.  If you are looking for somewhere, go for a place where the trees have their feet in dampness - riverside limes can be good.  Murray told me that the trees have to be old, ie >70 yrs.

Does rape need early NZ imported bees?  Mine build up quickly enough and are not Carnies.  Not sure that Phacelia was for oil - not game cover or even sown for pollinators?  If your season finished with the rape you should try taking some to the hills.  You are ideally situated for a shift to a heather site.

G.

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## Black Comb

On one of my sites they grow phacelia as a "green manure"

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## The Drone Ranger

probably got the wrong end of the stick on the phacelia  front 
I don't move the bees around maybe I should but its too much bother  :Smile: 
I have never used Demaree method --does it get you a new queen each year ?
Can't say whether or not imported queens are really necessary but commercial beekeepers say that they are for rape.

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## gavin

I have a large packet of Phacelia to scatter about suitable places at the association apiary.  Seed is cheap.

The Demareed colony was the one that brought me a lime crop, probably because of the strength.  All that moving up of brood and creating yet more space for the queen to try to fill.  OK, there are queen cells made in the top box but you can take off a nuc or put in a dividing floor and boards to make three, or just keep it as one powerful production unit. 

OK, I admit it, carnies probably do build up faster in spring, like for like.  But there are plenty of local stocks that can do just as well.

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## mbc

> probably got the wrong end of the stick on the phacelia  front


Not so long ago borage was widely grown for its oil before the Chinese grew lots and drove the price down.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Not so long ago borage was widely grown for its oil before the Chinese grew lots and drove the price down.


Thanks mbc that's what I was getting mixed up with there was an article in Beecraft in 2011 about it.

Re the vote on neonicotinoids it seems to have been a close one and I'm surprised that there weren't more votes.
Also that some areas where there is a lot of rape seem to be represented as wait and see or tolerant of rape
Whereas areas where there is no rape grown have the strongest opposition.

Beecraft is generally fairly balanced on most things but I sense there is some movement toward supporting a ban or reduction of some kind in the use of systemic neonic pesticides.

At a time when the abortion/pro-life camps were both on TV campaigning vehemently, I lived in London, and went to the then controversial Bodyworks Exhibition, which strangely enough was under attack from lots of factions who wanted it banned.

At the exhibition, in kilner jars, there was a series on foetal development where actual preserved babies from the earliest embro to the fully developed child were shown.

I felt at the time the best way for anyone to make an informed decision was to see the exhibition then come to their own conclusion based on their experience.

Sometimes polarising the discussion just stops anything from being decided at all.

As Leonard Rossiter put it "Who ever heard of the persecution of the apathetic by the bone idle"

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## gavin

> Also that some areas where there is a lot of rape seem to be represented as wait and see or tolerant of rape
> Whereas areas where there is no rape grown have the strongest opposition.


That's pretty much what I see. We had a vote in the new Perth association as a couple of the newer beekeepers had read Eric's campaigning circular and demanded a vote. After several members said their bees were fine on rape and a farmer-beekeeper intervened, the vote went 6 for and the rest of quite a full room not.  Completely opposite to the Glasgow vote where those willing to be led just pay attention to the doom and gloom, and only those who think for themselves and question things have a more open mind. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## Phil Moss

Re reading this thread, so
Here I am . not hiding behind a forum name, but me.
Who am I , and who am I affilated to (Obviously not good at grammar).

Honours degree in Agriculture from Wye College, London University.
Post graduate student at Oxford University, funded by a Ministry of Agriculture Scholarship
Awardrd D. Phil by Oxford University (Oxford awards D.Phil, almost all other universities use the Ph. D. abbreviation)
Post Doctoral Fellow at Oxford University, funded by the Science Research Council.
Lecturer in Agricultural Botany at Reading University, salary paid by University, research funds from the Ministry of Overseas Development.
Research had been nmainly on how to introduce genes into plants so farmers did not use pesticides!!!!!
Invited to set up a lboatory in an International Institute based in India, and gave up a tenured university post (could have done very little until retirement and then paid a fat pension) for a job with no security and no pension.
ICRISAT, part of the CGIAR under the aauspices of the UN (you can google them) was/is funded by many governments and philanthropic organisations, one criterion was that all our products are to be freely available to all, with no restrictions, and we were not in the pay of any companies. In some cases our policies and actions were very much against the interests of the chemocal and other companies. 
During 18 years based in India, including 18 months on asignment as a professor in USA to undertake specialist research where the facilities were better than in India, I travelled widely in the developing countries, and saw what, and how little, vast numbers of people in the world have to eat. I sometimes say I have seen more poverty than it is fair for one man to see.
I retired in 1996 as Director of Research in Cellular and Molecular Biology, continued working part time for a few years as a consultant to FAO.

I have never been funded, paid by or received any favours from any chemical company, am not a freemason or member of any secret society.

I do have the health of bees as a top prioity (read what I have written, ask any Oban beekeeper how much I do to help individuall beekeepers). I also have the reputaion of teh SBA at heatrt, as if we are seen to be heavily aganst neonics, they are banned, and bee health does not improve, our scientific integrity will be questioned (didn't they know how much damage was being done by varroa, viruses, nosemsa etcetc). Sadly, those who are writing letters to the press with 'half truths' do not have the same concern

I am not by nature a joining person, but
Member of SBA.
Member and LA sec for Oban beekeepers.
Elder and Lay Worship Leader in the Chuch of Scotland.
National Trust

In voting against the proposal, I had to follow my head as a scientist, (not my heart as one who would love to see a world without pesticides, when hunger and starvation would increase). (as Chairman of teh British Overseas Ex Services League Deccan Branch I was a regular visitor to the slums, and as a scientist who had sent plants to scientists in a certain country I was one of teh first, if not the first, foriegner to vist parts of 'that country' not open to foreign visitors. I had a political agent stck to me with super glue )!) (nearly) and won't tell you what I saw.) 

I am also very aware of all the problems facing bees, some of which are IMHO far more serious than neonics. Also that there is a meting a week today where SBA will be well represented and neonics will be discussed.

I was not aware that anyone who had worked in plant research had to abstain from voting - is this true, or just another 'fact' quoted by Stromessbees and others to support their personal views?

This is not well written and my typing is atrociuos, but I have work to do.
Phil

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## gavin

Well said Phil, and thanks for taking the time to post on here.  I'm sure that 95% of the SBA membership greatly appreciate what you do for the organisation but - unfortunately - the small number with strong views make a lot of noise.

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## The Drone Ranger

That was a really good post by Phil Moss.

Generally people used to be advised to avoid politics and religion in conversations.
I'm thinking of adding , GM crops, Neonics ,and Black Bees now  :Smile: 

A middle way perhaps is not subsidising crops that require neonics (for the moment in UK)
I grow the odd potato every year but I don't plant them in the same bit of ground.
Now if I had a chemical dusting that protected the potato and let me plant them in the same ground every year would I use it?
I have to grow blight resistant spuds because I don't have a selection of fungicides like commercial growers but they are pretty good to eat
On the farms round our way they have a 3 crop rotation Grain,potatoes,Rape.
Now if I grew only potato cabbage and maize(some chance) in my rotation then it wouldn't be long before lots of pests and diseases showed up. 

Subsidy for rape growing is in some ways linked to potential for bio-fuel production it would seem because nobody needs all the oil for frying chips  :Smile: 

Phil Moss rightly points out that calling for bans could have catastrophic consequences elsewhere in the world so that's the wrong way to go.
Just incentivise the growing you want to see in UK and give funding to the least harmful option wherever possible.

would that not make a better resolution for a vote next year ?

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## brothermoo

It would sure make a good practical proposal from beekeeping associations (and other environmental lobbists) to George Osborne before the next budget.

__________________
sent via tapatalk

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## Bumble

DR, you're spot on about crop rotation, but why try to stop farmers growing OSR? I don't like it, I don't like the swathes of yellow fields, and I don't like the oil it makes but those are my personal prejudices.

I don't know any beekeepers whose bees have been hurt by having their bees on OSR, and for some it's their main honey crop. If farmers are told not to grow OSR, can you be sure they'll replace it with something that can be used by bees? If not, then what the heck are quite a lot of beekeepers going to do?

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## Neils

Thanks for taking the time to post Phil and I appreciate, from a lay position, you explaining both your background and reasoning for taking the position that you did.

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## Jon

Science and logical argument gets my support.
Freemasons, single issue campaigning and conspiracy theory should have no place in the debate other than the inherent humour value.

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## Phil Moss

If you get blight regularly, grow only earlies and second earlies (they bulk up earlier then maincrop) and cut off all the haulms as soon as you see any blight, as that cuts down the amount of blight spores in your soil.



> That was a really good post by Phil Moss.
> 
> Generally people used to be advised to avoid politics and religion in conversations.
> I'm thinking of adding , GM crops, Neonics ,and Black Bees now 
> 
> A middle way perhaps is not subsidising crops that require neonics (for the moment in UK)
> I grow the odd potato every year but I don't plant them in the same bit of ground.
> Now if I had a chemical dusting that protected the potato and let me plant them in the same ground every year would I use it?
> I have to grow blight resistant spuds because I don't have a selection of fungicides like commercial growers but they are pretty good to eat
> ...

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## The Drone Ranger

> If you get blight regularly, grow only earlies and second earlies (they bulk up earlier then maincrop) and cut off all the haulms as soon as you see any blight, as that cuts down the amount of blight spores in your soil.


Thanks Phil I'm planning Sarpo Mira main with Orla for the earlies but I like charlottes and I will give your suggestion to chop off the tops a go.
I used to need a testing kit to check for blight but it's been so much of a nuisance I could spot it in the dark now.
Blight watch is a good site to monitor the outbreaks nearby

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR, you're spot on about crop rotation, but why try to stop farmers growing OSR? I don't like it, I don't like the swathes of yellow fields, and I don't like the oil it makes but those are my personal prejudices.
> 
> I don't know any beekeepers whose bees have been hurt by having their bees on OSR, and for some it's their main honey crop. If farmers are told not to grow OSR, can you be sure they'll replace it with something that can be used by bees? If not, then what the heck are quite a lot of beekeepers going to do?


Bumble
Your dead right from a bee keeping point of view bees only live 6 weeks in the field so they are ok
There can't be much wrong with the nectar or pollen otherwise the brood would suffer and the don't

The members of the SBA who campaign against rape are looking beyond bees to other insects and the environment in general so the SBA is the wrong platform for that I would say.

I think though that if there is an financial incentive to plant rape it could possibly be used to reduce pesticides if possible

I'm starting a campaign to use lots of evening primrose oil -- lots of exaggerated health claims etc. you know the form 
Since MBC told me Borage is the plant that yields most of this oil and I fancy that as a substitute cash crop to rape.

Tell all your friends that if they bathe in evening primrose oil once a week they won't need to eat another vegetable in their lives and they will still live forever.
P.s> don't sign anything like that
area planted /yield for rape 00404551.jpg

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