# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  bees sting neighbour

## b.lambert

In at my bees today assessing honey supers they were getting a bit irate as I was checking honey supers and manipulating frames I had smoked them after putting the hive back I had quite a few angry bees after me.  I headed indoors and was unaware of what happened next, neighbor  was attacked when she walked down the garden they thought they were swarming bees they went to hospital thankfully they did not have an allergic reaction but very shocked.  They did not have my phone number and were afraid to come into front garden (bees in back). About five mins later got a phone call from someone who said the bees were swarming but there was no swarm I believe my timing and the neighbors have been in sync. I try to work bees when no neighbors about this was a guest neighbor. Something positive from it though met another beekeeper who wants bees.  What happens next can they sue me?

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## The Drone Ranger

If you are a member of SBA you will have insurance but I doubt if you will be sued Bees are not domesticated animals they are classed as wild creatures.
You did not intentionally cause the situation with the neighbour and the bees.
If I were you though I would requeen that hive pronto and despite what other people might say I think you should look for a very gentle type of bee such as carniolan or italian 
Cue the black bee brigade who will say AMM is the way to go but they wont give you a queen supplier because there isn't one as far as I know

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## gavin

I don't know how many folk I've heard of that started with bees in their garden and ended up moving them out.  I did.  We do our best to convince beginners that gardens are only suitable if very large and very secluded.  It would be surprising if your neighbours are happy with the bees staying put after this.

Perhaps you have a beekeeper nearby that set up with - or requeened with - one of those exotic types that hybridised with your bees and made them tetchier than they should be?

 :Stick Out Tongue: 

Your local genetics may be dominated more by Amm than anything and if so it would be daft to bring in something that makes angry hybrids a couple of generations down the line!

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## The Drone Ranger

When someone has one hive and its in their garden they need a docile bees from a queen mated by docile drones
The best place to get one of those is to buy one from someone like **** or ****
I have lots of hives so can select and requeen from my own bees 
Neighbours are important and they will be ok if the bees leave them alone.
The queen will last a few years and with any luck her daughters will be gentle as well

**Admin note**
Apologies for interfering with a post, but it is SBA policy not to accept advertising for imported honeybees in the magazine.  Neither of these companies would have their adverts accepted for that reason.

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## Adam

You don't need to panic and replace the queen immediately. It will take 2 months for the ratty bees to die by which time inspections will have probably finished. However you should consider replacing the queen in the next few weeks if they're a nuisance. I guess a neighbour could apply for a bee ASBO or something.

Behaviour does definitely change over time - depending on the forage, weather and time of day.

I keep most of my bees in the (Front!) garden and they are fine. (When I can find the recent picture I'll post it). I did have one problem hive a couple of years ago with a big and angry colony which I moved after a re-queening attempt partially failed and we had to stay in the house all one Sunday. SWMBO was not impressed! As I currently have 15 hives, 2 nucs and some mini nucs here, I have the luxury of being able to remove a queen if I am concerned about behaviour. For example I squashed two last autumn and united those colonies with others. They were fine in March as all the 'wrong sort of bees' had died. I did the same at the end of March this year - 2 queens gone. However it was 2 months before the flighty bees were gone. They would have been tolerable in an out-apiary but I didn't want to risk anything - nor have any of their drones about.

I have an eclectic mix of bees in my apiary. Darkish local girls which are not too productive, a Carniolan type bee - gentle and swarmy. The offspring from a yellow NZ Italian and some nice orangy ones that came in a swarm I collected. This gives me a good genetic mix but of course can cause behavoural problems. The policy is to cull the worst and breed from the best so that over a few years I will have something with decent qualities. Nearby there are italians, carniolans and darker mongrels so controlled mating is not possible.

From the hives I have, I expect to reduce numbers before winter by uniting. Those will be large and strong. 

An advantage of uniting in the Spring means that you suddenly have a big colony with - say - 10 or 12 frames of brood so it is good at getting early honey in.

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## b.lambert

well I checked out the neighbour, she was in bed, husband sort of had small smile glazed over his face when i said im sure i will bethe last person you want to see.  (I had conciously said to myself not to mention any bee's in the sentence!)  she was given antihistamines and told to watch for any symptoms,  Tonight I gave them plenty smoke and placed porter bee-escapes on, and they were still irky, (19.30) it was a quick manipulation but one that was required.  I think because they are a huge colony they are very protective towards honey.  How do you requeen this late in season?  positive things about today met new beekeeper, sold some bees! moved my first hive.  and yes am a member of SBA

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## gavin

You can't have any kind of long-term solution by buying in exotic queens.  It might buy you a little time, but in the long term you make matters worse - for you and for other beekeepers in your area.  Unfortunately one of DL's recommended suppliers is widely recognised as being the source of poor quality swarmy stocks that would make your beekeeping more difficult rather than easier.

Whatever kind of bee we keep we will have to deal with unpleasant colonies at some stage.  It is when colonies become powerful that you see their real nature.  With new queens and when they are only on a few frames most stocks are easily managed.  But fill a couple of boxes with bees and things can be quite different.  With experience you can see the signs of poor temper early on.  Tonight I saw that in one of my less strong colonies, but I can afford to give that one a second chance as no-one goes within 100 yards of the apiary except me.

Adam is right - requeening will not remove the tetchy workers (even if sometimes it does give an immediate improvement in temper).  

Are you still in touch with your mentor?  Local experience can be very valuable at a time like this.

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## The Drone Ranger

> You can't have any kind of long-term solution by buying in exotic queens.  It might buy you a little time, but in the long term you make matters worse - for you and for other beekeepers in your area.  Unfortunately one of DL's recommended suppliers is widely recognised as being the source of poor quality swarmy stocks that would make your beekeeping more difficult rather than easier.
> 
> Whatever kind of bee we keep we will have to deal with unpleasant colonies at some stage. .


Sorry about the commercial mentions one of the companies used to regularly advertise in the SBA magazine before the BIBBA takeover

One short term measure that can often help is to put a couple of thymol sponges over the broodbox Why that works I don't know but it quite often does.

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## Jon

If you go for a solution such as buying in a Carnica or Ligustica you are immediately locked into requeening with imports on a regular basis and all that implies re. disease control, plus the risk of bringing in a new pathogen. Within a couple of generations you will more than likely have a vicious hybrid which has crossed with local drones. The fault is neither of the import nor the drone but rather the fact that a hybrid has been produced. DR says that there are no AMM suppliers, well there are no UK or Irish pure bred Carnica or Ligustica either. With AMM there are at least many breeding groups who work together and share genetic material.

Keeping bees in gardens is not for the novice and you have to have a plan for removing a colony immediately, ie the same day of the problem, should following behaviour develop such as described in the opening post. I would cull any queen which produced followers immediately as it has to be the worst trait in a bee colony. It transfers the sting risk from the beekeeper to the beekeeper's neighbours and the general public. The astronaut suited beekeepers can tolerate followers as they don't get strung through the bee suit but the neighbours don't cut the lawn in protective clothing and some bees can follow or defend for 100 yards from the hive.

There are several novice beekeepers in my bka keeping bees in small urban back gardens and it is an accident waiting to happen. My mate Tim mentioned the other day that he had been called out to over 20 swarms in chimneys this year alone. Oops mentioned the 'C' word again.

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## Adam

Quote "I would cull any queen which produced followers immediately as it has to be the worst trait in a bee colony". 

This is not a recomendation now! A queenless colony may well be worse.

If your mentor has a frame of eggs he could donate from a gentle colony you could do an artificial swarm - queen on 1 frame of brood on old site with flying bees; remainder a few feet away that accepts the donor eggs for queen raising - and once the new queen is established you could unite with newspaper and squash the unwanted queen.

When I had the unpleasant colony a couple of years ago I desperately tried to think of where I could move the hive to; the option at the time was to make a temporary floor and wheelbarrow the two brood chambers (a WBC) a 100 yards away to a neighbours field. I now have an out apiary site. It's worth having another site available for when you need it.

One (master) beekeeper I know has a 'sin-bin' site in case of need.

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## The Drone Ranger

8.50 this morning opened hive where bees were already working furiously No smoke required
Queen is yellow with frayed wings (old) laying well
She got that way because she hasn't swarmed 
I had her frame trapped for 24 hours
No stings, no agro, no nothing.
The hive gave me honey this year
I would put these bees in my neighbours garden never mind my own
Hybrid queen no problem

No Amm suppliers probably because they would be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act for selling hybrid bees 
There are a lot of fantasist around who like to think they are bringing back AMM but they are actually just on the latest bandwagon.
Some serious bee breeding going on as well good luck to them
There is loads of hypocracy round this subject of bee pure breeds mostly I just see self interest where if a group trying to breed a particular bee type are failing its always because of other non participating uncooperative antisocial ignorant beekeepers in the area rather than the participants
Really the problem is one small group of fanatics BIBBA trying to dominate and determine the actions of all other beekeepers.
If the arguments for Amm stood up then people would not be banned for disputing them

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## Jon

> If the arguments for Amm stood up then people would not be banned for disputing them


New to me that someone has been banned for disputing facts about AMM. Must have missed something.




> Hybrid queen no problem


Some hybrids are fine but a lot are difficult and it is next to impossible to breed true.




> No Amm suppliers probably because they would be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act for selling hybrid bees


If you mean there is some introgression of genetic material from other bee sub-species I am sure you are right. There has always been some crossing at the boundaries of the natural range of the various honey bee sub species and in addition there is 150 years of import history in the UK and Ireland which will have left its genetic footprint.

But there is a huge difference between crossing bees which are perhaps 95% AMM DNA with AMM type drones and the type of hybrid you get crossing Ligustica and Carnica or Carnica and AMM. That is the type of hybrid which produces your uncontrollable bee especially in the F2 generation where the DNA of the queen herself is completely mixed up between the two races.

If you read the Moritz paper I posted a link to a while back you will see that the German Carnica contains some AMM DNA but these at least breed true due to a 50 year programme of careful selection combined with II and offshore island mating stations.




> Really the problem is one small group of fanatics BIBBA trying to dominate and determine the actions of all other beekeepers.


I have a lot more time for BIBBA than some of the importers who are interested in turning a fast buck, no more no less. One of those you mentioned in a previous post has a terrible reputation for dodgy practice and disease control - sending nucs with varroa to varroa free areas in Scotland for example.

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## gavin

> Hybrid queen no problem
> 
> .................
> 
> There are a lot of fantasist around who like to think they are bringing back AMM but they are actually just on the latest bandwagon.
> Some serious bee breeding going on as well good luck to them
> 
> .................
> 
> ...


Well, hybrids *can* be nice bees, and pure Amm can be horrible.  What is happening is that highly bred stocks (Buckfast, Italians, Carniolans) are being traded but our native bee has not had that investment in breeding.  Government will not do it but at least some amateurs are willing to try.  The prize is greater stability of local stocks, better bees, better beekeeping and the conservation of something native that is at risk otherwise.

Has anyone been banned for disputing the arguments made for Amm?

I've heard this hostility to BIBBA before but the BIBBA folk seem to me to be reasonable, tolerant people.  Conservation is mainstream these days so I don't think that calling BIBBA fanatics is right.  Maybe we can all keep open minds and share experiences?

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## Jon

> Quote "I would cull any queen which produced followers immediately as it has to be the worst trait in a bee colony". 
> 
> This is not a recomendation now! A queenless colony may well be worse.


meant to say cull and replace, not leave queenless!

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## The Drone Ranger

> I've heard this hostility to BIBBA before but the BIBBA folk seem to me to be reasonable, tolerant people.  Conservation is mainstream these days so I don't think that calling BIBBA fanatics is right.  Maybe we can all keep open minds and share experiences?


Ok here's my experience

Whenever anyone mentions Black Bees they like to attach the "British" part as in "British Black Bees" as if that is some specific race of bee only present in the UK

They then like to describe these bees as Apis Melifera Melifera the bee that has been here since the Ice Age


They will then tell you how superior that bee is to all others in the World

Finally when you ask them if they have any they will say "no"

But, because they want them, this infers some superior status on them as beekeepers.

Anyone reading "Breeding Better Bees" by Milner and Dews can't fail to notice how they constantly use words like "pure" and "mongrel" to establish their prejudice beliefs in favour of AMM 
It is a basis for a stupid kind of elitism  .

The same attitudes and words are used all the time even here on this (relatively) tolerant forum.

If you have bred pure AMM bees then good luck to you.
Anyone who wants to keep hybrids good luck to them

The problem comes when you haven't bred anything better than anyone else but still feel the need to evangelise. I don't.


Its not a co-incidence that Eric McArthur was banned after getting hot under the collar in a thread about Amm and inbreeding people do get too fanatical on both sides of the arguments
Personally I think that it's wrong to ban someone because at the end of the day if people don't want to respond to their comments /posts then its not compulsory so they an just ignore them.
You know that's my opinion already??

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## Jon

It is rare for anyone to get banned for expressing an opinion, but frequent to get a ban for being personally abusive to other forum members especially if the other forum member happens to be the forum moderator! I have seen this happen on loads of internet forums and the person who is banned for abuse runs off and claims they were banned for holding an opinion on pesticides or imported bees.
Personally I enjoyed most of the arguments with Eric although his Achilles heel was resorting to personal abuse when the going got tough.
I think some people just get to a stage in life where they get angry when challenged. 
This forum has been very good natured and had very few spats compared to any of the others I have posted on. The Irish forum is also good natured but has terrible forum software.




> Whenever anyone mentions Black Bees they like to attach the "British" part as in "British Black Bees" as if that is some specific race of bee only present in the UK


Certainly not part of Micheál Mac Giolla Coda's discourse. He wouldn't thank you for inferring that either him or his bees were British. You do hear people talking of 'Welsh Blacks' as well.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Certainly not part of Micheál Mac Giolla Coda's discourse. He wouldn't thank you for inferring that either him or his bees were British. You do hear people talking of 'Welsh Blacks' as well.


LOL!

Point taken 
Re sendings offf surely a Red Card doesn't have to mean a lifetime ban

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## AlexJ

While going off tack slightly (though I thoroughly enjoy the debates on the subject) , I do sometimes think we can’t see the wood for the trees when discussing Amm genetics.   Is it not the case that all this talk of Amm superiority is largely academic in the face of a somewhat ill defined and confused national breeding landscape?  Unless of course the SBA has a breeding strategy (including increasing colonies and genetic characteristics) of which I am unsighted.

As a second year beekeeper in Fife I see no great effort in the Kingdom to breed bees with traits linked to some local or national standards, never less seeking to move towards an Amm type.  Over the past 18 months I have attended seminars and workshops which have been very useful in teaching queen breeding and colony increase.  These are usually accompanied by discussions on the merits of Amm.

What is never articulated is how the SBA or local associations plan to work together to develop  a breeding programme to achieve the aim of making a more genetically ‘pure’ Amm bee dominant in Scotland; if indeed such a goal is ever likely to be achievable?  Albeit, there is ad-hoc advice on various sites regarding setting up bee breeding groups.

I started off with a swarm which I have now split to a total of 3 colonies and have had to do so without access to a local breeding programme that seeks to breed bees (of any kind) that are beekeeper/public user friendly.  If I find myself in the same circumstances next year I will look to travel to have queens mated/sourced. 

Until a co-ordinated approach to the subject is taken we will go round in circles leaving small pockets of well motivated and first class beekeepers breeding bees that certainly seem to suit their needs and which may, or not, be taking them closer to an Amm type (if that's what we should be aiming for).

ps

I agree with The Drone Ranger - perhaps we should review 'sendings off' after a while with a view to reinstating posting rights.  Perhaps something akin to a ‘three strikes and your permanently out’ policy could be implemented.

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## madasafish

I have read on various forums that it is silly to keep bees in domestic gardens. Perhaps someone should tell ALL the UK Bee Keeping Associations as the increase in beekeepers comes largely from people intending to keep bees- in their gardens.

As for AMM bees, I have listened and read about them, can't buy any queens so as far as I am concerned it is all blue sky and words.

 And as we all know, words are cheap..  After the last winter, many English, Welsh and Scottish keepers were queenless. How many suppliers of AMM queens were there to fill the losses? 
Answer: none.

Says it all really.

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## Trog

We kept two colonies in a narrow, but long, garden in hampshire, facing out over a field.  They stung a horse on the nose once, when he stuck said nose into hive to see what was happening.  Otherwise they never bothered anybody and we could stand by the hives unmolested.

Here we have the colonies (different ones, obviously) in our (large) garden and they don't bother us or anyone else.  A lot of it's down to temperament and the beekeeper knowing when to leave them alone.  If we have just one bee following us more than 6 yards, that's them in a bad mood.  We've bred from the more docile colonies but I have to admit the shorter-tempered ones are the best honey-gatherers!

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## Jon

> A lot of it's down to temperament and the beekeeper knowing when to leave them alone.





> I have read on various forums that it is silly to keep bees in domestic gardens.


It's not silly but you do need to know what you are doing.
I have 3 colonies at the bottom of my own garden, but I do have reservations about it.
I really only ever intend to keep nucs in the garden but one of them has collected about 100lbs of honey so the forage is obviously very good.

Beginners run into problems very quickly as they often don't handle bees very well, wear heavy gloves which antagonises the bees, and crucially, are not on top of swarm control. 
That nice pure bred queen disappears some time late April or early May with half the colony and you are then into russian roulette re. the temperament of the colony headed by your new queen. In a worst case scenario you entertain the neighbours with a series of cast swarms landing in the nearest gardens 1-2 weeks after losing the prime swarm. One of our beginners had at least 8 swarms from the two colonies in his garden. If they start to hand out OBEs for filling Belfast's chimneys with bees, he will be first in line. One of them went into his friend's chimney so seems to be some karma involved.

I open my garden colonies far less than my other colonies and one of them swarmed on July 1st. The swarm went back home an hour after settling in my garden and the clipped queen managed to climb back up the leg of the stand as well as I found her inside. Fortunately my next door neighbour was on holidays as this swarm would have had about 25,000 bees in it.

Most non beekeepers are terrified of bees.




> As for AMM bees, I have listened and read about them, can't buy any queens so as far as I am concerned it is all blue sky and words.


Have you checked if there are any bee improvement groups in your area? They are all over the uk and many of them, but not all of them, favour the native bee.
The idea that queens are always available on demand encourages some of the sharks who are only interested in making a fast buck out of beekeepers. OK, I know it is about supply and demand but many of the better beekeepers rarely buy in queens or buy in just one or two to do their grafting from.
It is not hard to rear your own queens but it takes a certain mindset.

Trog, when was the last time you bought a queen? I bet it is not something you do every year if at all.  In my own case I have never bought one but am happy to swap. I would consider buying in an unrelated queen from time to time if I though it would help the genetics.

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## Trog

Hi Jon.  I've never bought a queen.  My current bees are descendents of two colonies bought from Seil yonks ago, doubtless mixed  with a neighbour's which came from Ft William (pre-varroa days), and ferals, some of which came from 2 colonies described as 'vicious' which were seldom inspected by their keeper so swarmed all the time, plus ferals picked up as a swarm elsewhere on the island, then an AMM swarm from neighbour.  In other words, a bit of a mixture but all acclimatised and having proved themselves able to survive all an island winter can throw at them.  Unusually, I also picked up two swarms this summer and so far they seem even-tempered while building up extremely rapidly.

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## Jon

> Hi Jon.  I've never bought a queen.  My current bees are descendents of two colonies bought from Seil yonks ago, doubtless mixed  with a neighbour's which came from Ft William (pre-varroa days), and ferals, some of which came from 2 colonies described as 'vicious' which were seldom inspected by their keeper so swarmed all the time, plus ferals picked up as a swarm elsewhere on the island, then an AMM swarm from neighbour.  In other words, a bit of a mixture but all acclimatised and having proved themselves able to survive all an island winter can throw at them.  Unusually, I also picked up two swarms this summer and so far they seem even-tempered while building up extremely rapidly.


These young whipper-snappers want their queens out of vending machine like cans of coca-cola.
My father has been keeping bees for over 50 years, maybe 60 and I don't think he has bought a queen yet either.
He might be about to crack and dish out £48 + vat now that he has turned 80. Never to late to start but I am not holding my breath! 

I got my first couple of colonies from him and also a swarm or two which I collected.

Didn't Ivor Cutler one of Gavin's main influences live on Seil?

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## gavin

I hope that they don't import otherwise you'll be in trouble.

Didn't Ivor Cutler live in London?

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## The Drone Ranger

> These young whipper-snappers want their queens out of vending machine like cans of coca-cola.
> My father has been keeping bees for over 50 years, maybe 60 and I don't think he has bought a queen yet either.
> He might be about to crack and dish out £48 + vat now that he has turned 80. Never to late to start but I am not holding my breath! 
> 
> I got my first couple of colonies from him and also a swarm or two which I collected.
> 
> Didn't Ivor Cutler one of Gavin's main influences live on Seil?


Maybe he should get one from The Scottish Agricultural College they were importing queens from Denmark a few years ago.
Their bees are probably classed as local stock now I suppose
Pot Kettle Black make your own sentence  :Smile: 




Ivor's song about beekeeping

Admin note: If you use the filmstrip icon to insert the link to an online video you get to see it in the post.

Thanks for the edit Gavin here's a pic. of the punch he's singing about

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## Jon

> Maybe he should get one from The Scottish Agricultural College they were importing queens from Denmark a few years ago.


I assume those were Buckfast as Buckfast is big in Denmark.

That happened in NI as well. There was a time, the 1970s I think, when the Dept. of Agriculture here was promoting the Buckfast bees as some kind of a superior bee.
There are still a few hold outs re. Buckfast, especially among some of the more elderly beekeepers.

Gav. I definitely have it in my head that Ivor Cutler spent time on Seil before moving to London. Did he live there for a while?

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## The Drone Ranger

> I assume those were Buckfast as Buckfast is big in Denmark.


Don't know for sure but I think they were black bees 
This was only about 5 yrs ago

I was on a bee diseases course at Achincruive 

That's why I ask the question when is an import no longer an import and suddenly becomes local stock ??

(Answer when its black of course)

 :Smile:

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## Jon

Must have been Carnica rather than Buckfast , then.
And local is the wrong word. Most people talk about native bees, ie the bees native to these islands before introductions were made.

AMM from France was imported to Craibstone in the 1930s. There are videos on Youtube.

Ivor Cutler was also imported but society is the better for that.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Must have been Carnica rather than Buckfast , then.
> And local is the wrong word. Most people talk about native bees, ie the bees native to these islands before introductions were made.
> 
> AMM from France was imported to Craibstone in the 1930s. There are videos on Youtube.
> 
> Ivor Cutler was also imported but society is the better for that.


The advice given on buying bees here is to "buy locally bred stock which is adapted to the local conditions"
All I'm pointing out that the distinction between imported and local is an artificial one.
At some point the bees are suddenly transformed from imported to local whether that be 1 year 5 years 30 years
Nearly all the commercial bee operations in the UK import their queens.
The idea that a single beekeeper who buys an imported or commercially produced queen is having any effect on the genetic make up of the UK bee population is like saying switch off your phone charger and global warming goes away.
While organisations like the SBA say don't buy bees from bee breeders there will never be any large scale bee breeding in the UK 
This is made worse by advice to new beekeepers like they should only buy nucs headed by this years queen
Any UK breeding operation would have to sell overwintered queens.
The way forward is to breed bees in the UK on a large scale (commercial basis) which using AI isolated mating and selected stock will make quality queens available to small scale bee keepers. (bit like Brother Adam did)
The alternative piecemeal approach has led nowhere as bees in the UK have probably not improved a jot in the last 100 years
If the present thinking continues then bees will always be in such short supply that beekeepers will be forced into buying from companies who import.
Demand is so high that bee hives are being stolen regularly

I know in small pockets people like yourself and rosie jimbo etc are creating small enclaves but a general improvement will only be possible if quality UK queens are readily available when required

The growth in beekeeping in the UK is tremendous that's not mirrored in membership of the SBA which is very small and probably not numerically representative of even a majority of beekeepers in Scotland.

7 or 8 years ago it had about 1100 members and I think now around 1300 to 1400

So the overall effect of SBA policies on beekeeping in Scotland is probably far less than the impression its members might be given.

Well that's got that problem sorted --next  :Smile:

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## gavin

So ... we all need to get imported bees because local ones are pretty much the same and they'll be local soon enough.

Commercial beekeeping and hobby beekeeping would soon be in perfect harmony.  Nobody importing is likely to make any difference to the genetics of the UK overall.  Embracing imports would allow the SBA to really boost its membership in line with the huge increase in import-loving Scottish beekeepers ... and then we wouldn't need AI or piecemeal approaches and little local breeding groups and their small enclaves?!  I think that I have it now then DL, thanks for clarifying!

 :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm still wondering though why we are now encouraging B to buy an ill-suited import which will inevitably rebound on her and give her even more fierce colonies in the seasons to come?

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## The Drone Ranger

> So ... we all need to get imported bees because local ones are pretty much the same and they'll be local soon enough.
> 
> Commercial beekeeping and hobby beekeeping would soon be in perfect harmony.  Nobody importing is likely to make any difference to the genetics of the UK overall.  Embracing imports would allow the SBA to really boost its membership in line with the huge increase in import-loving Scottish beekeepers ... and then we wouldn't need AI or piecemeal approaches and little local breeding groups and their small enclaves?!  I think that I have it now then DL, thanks for clarifying!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still wondering though why we are now encouraging B to buy an ill-suited import which will inevitably rebound on her and give her even more fierce colonies in the seasons to come?


I don't like imports any more than you 
The demand for bees is there
If we support UK breeders commercial or otherwise then eventually imports will stop
Scottish Beekeeper used to carry ads from John Furzey and others not huge breeders but valuable
If UK breeders produce queens at say £15 then importing becomes uneconomic
I think breeders of Carniolan Buckfast and AMM all have a place
I get the impression that you don't agree because you hope everyone will end up with a single type of bee AMM, no harm in that, but you have to come up with a convincing strategy.
Taking the available stock in Perthshire and breeding your way back to 'pure' AMM wont stand up as a plan particularly surrounded by large commercial operations who all use imported carniolan queens.
My point about 'local' queens relates to Jon's post which links Thornes site selling queens. Presumably they are 'approved' suppliers but how local is local nothing more than that.
SBA membership is low are all the members of your Local Association SBA members? is that automatic?

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## gavin

> Taking the available stock in Perthshire and breeding your way back to 'pure' AMM wont stand up as a plan particularly surrounded by large commercial operations who all use imported carniolan queens.


You may be right but we (and by that I mean a collaboration with two Fife enthusiasts) have an isolated mating site identified and are willing to give it a go.  Alex seems frustrated by the lack of action his side of the water but feel free to cajole, suggest, and help Alex. 




> SBA membership is low are all the members of your Local Association SBA members? is that automatic?


No, it is a personal choice to subscribe or not to the SBA.  Do you think that SBA membership is lower than it should be?  Maybe we should start another thread on this.

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## The Drone Ranger

> You may be right but we (and by that I mean a collaboration with two Fife enthusiasts) have an isolated mating site identified and are willing to give it a go.  Alex seems frustrated by the lack of action his side of the water but feel free to cajole, suggest, and help Alex. 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is a personal choice to subscribe or not to the SBA.  Do you think that SBA membership is lower than it should be?  Maybe we should start another thread on this.


Another thread on increasing SBA membership I'm up for that  :Smile: 
Membership is much lower than I think it should be judging by my contacts its only about 20%
Cell punching is another thing people might be interested in.
Making a Skep  :Smile: 
grafting tools 
breeding for resistance LOL!! that should be a fiery one I'm not going there.  :Smile: 
.
Alex made his points fairly and reasonably I thought it made good sense to me.
Can't do much to help anyone at the moment because of the voluntary movement restrictions.

----------


## Jon

> My point about 'local' queens relates to Jon's post which links Thornes site selling queens. Presumably they are 'approved' suppliers but how local is local nothing more than that.


I know nothing about the quality of queens from Thorne. I linked to demonstrate what I considered an exorbitant price rather than indicating any approval.

Once you start buying pure race queens you are trapped into repeat buying every year like the commercial guys, as the temperament tends to deteriorate a couple of generations down the line.

I think it is better to avoid that by working together with the beekeepers in your area.
If you are one of the more competent or knowledgeable beekeepers in your area, people will be more likely to cooperate, especially if they see a personal benefit. 
Most beekeepers I know let their bees swarm and just tend to hope for the best re. the new queen heading the original colony.

I can't think of anyone I know who would pay £50 for a single bee although I do have a mate who breeds  daffodils who paid £120 for a single bulb and I believe it was an import from Holland

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I know nothing about the quality of queens from Thorne. I linked to demonstrate what I considered an exorbitant price rather than indicating any approval.
> 
> Once you start buying pure race queens you are trapped into repeat buying every year like the commercial guys, as the temperament tends to deteriorate a couple of generations down the line.
> 
> I think it is better to avoid that by working together with the beekeepers in your area.
> If you are one of the more competent or knowledgeable beekeepers in your area, people will be more likely to cooperate, especially if they see a personal benefit. 
> Most beekeepers I know let their bees swarm and just tend to hope for the best re. the new queen heading the original colony.
> 
> I can't think of anyone I know who would pay £50 for a single bee although I do have a mate who breeds  daffodils who paid £120 for a single bulb and I believe it was an import from Holland


I didn't think you had approved them I mean SBA approved 
They are a very good company do you have them in NI as well

I think £15 - £20 would be a fair price but before you get the calculator out we don't need any more imports here LOL!

I've been putting honey in jars and now the cat is stuck to the pedal bin  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> They are a very good company do you have them in NI as well


I like Thorne. They are pricey but the staff are very civil. We don't have a shop but there are a number of accredited agents who supply Thorne stuff from home or the garage. I was just checking out the 3k Tub of Apiguard. £92 when vat is included. Carriage is free when the order is over £100 so I will order a spare veil or a few more porter escapes.

£20 is fair enough for a queen although for the amount of work involved it is a labour of love.
We still have a lot of beekeepers who say it is 'bad luck' to sell bees.
Curiously it is the crap beekeepers who always lose their bees over winter who say this.
They appear with the daffodils every spring checking to see who has 'spare' bees or 'too many' bees.

Do you think there are many takers for the Thorne 6 frame nuc in Scotland, collection only, a snip at £220 plus VAT.

You are ahead of me on the honey as mine is still in a settling tank. Must get the rest of my supers off this weekend.

No cat to stick anywhere but could immobilise the dog.




> before you get the calculator out we don't need any more imports here LOL!


Best to work with local AMM if you can find it but I would not have reservations about taking stock from the UK or Ireland from a reliable source.
I have some Galtee genetics in my apiary and as you well know it is a long way to Tipperary from Belfast.

----------


## Trog

I like Thorne's too.  Very prompt and friendly service and - most importantly to islanders who are tired of being overcharged for carriage by many firms - they don't charge us extra for delivery.  It's the same for us as for mainlanders, free over £100 (which is all too easy to spend once I open the catalogue!!)

----------


## madasafish

> Have you checked if there are any bee improvement groups in your area? They are all over the uk and many of them, but not all of them, favour the native bee.
> The idea that queens are always available on demand encourages some of the sharks who are only interested in making a fast buck out of beekeepers. OK, I know it is about supply and demand but many of the better beekeepers rarely buy in queens or buy in just one or two to do their grafting from.
> It is not hard to rear your own queens but it takes a certain mindset.
> 
> .


Our local Association has BIBBA members. They are secretive, tell little of what they are doing and have no queens available... (at least not to newcomers like me)..


I am not an impatient "got to have it now " consumer but frankly some of the beekeeping fraternity are growing old, and stuck in their ways.

It's all very well saying I've never bought a queen if you keep bees and breed your own or know someone who does.. but most newcomers don't.  SO where do they turn? To BIBBA?  A joke to outsiders...

And all this talk of banning imported bees when the local beekeepers could not supply demand and have been dying out and reducing in numbers over the past 20 years  is just .. talk unfortunately.

The resurgence of beekeeping is due to new entrants to it: many have not enough time so buy what is easily available... Local bees are usually not available until after June - which gives a newbie little time to prepare for winter.

The BBKA has similar problems to the SBA in not converting newcomers to members... I suspect a complex mix of causes.. but in reality if local Associations can't  or won't supply newcomers with bees # then an immediate reason to join is missing.

# I mean at fair market rates..

Our local Association started this year raising nucs and queens.. about 75% of the members who helped at the Association Apiary were members of less than two years .. ...

----------


## Jon

Hi Madasafish.

I started a queen rearing group this year and we have about 20 involved. Most of them have been keeping bees for between 1-3 years, very few with much experience but they are enthusiastic and motivated which is half the battle.
We have about 85 AMM queens mated so far and most members of the group have got a queen or two, some have five or more.
The way to go is working as a team, via your bka or independently if you have the local contacts.
I am a Bibba member and one of the others is a bibba committee member, but that is beside the point as the main thing is to harness the enthusiasm.
We met last night and it was too cold to do any direct work with bees so we just sat around and chatted about plans for next year and it is heartwarming to see the enthusiasm.
13 of my queens went to make up nucs for a local association at £20 per queen and a lot of the other queens reared in the group will end up in nucs for new members at around £100 per nuc.
One of our main aims is to provide nucs of gentle, non swarmy bees to the beginners as members of my BKA have had huge problems with bees which are aggressive and bees which swarm all the time, not Carniolans in this case, just yellow mongrels. There are a few people who provide newbies with swarms every year but the bees are impossible to work with. Some of the more enlightened members of the group have been using their AMM queens to requeen colonies of swarmy yellow stock.
Every BKA should be trying to provide the newcomers with nucs at a competitive price and if that were the case the import debate would be largely academic.
If noone is doing it in your area, start it up yourself. I bet you get plenty of support especially from the new beekeepers.

----------


## nemphlar

I was tempted in my second year in the early eighties to try a pale leather coloured Q from comercial breeder down south, she wouldn't stop laying in any circumstance and all summer I had to monitor to avoid them starving, although I got rid of her it did give me enough bees to be able to make up nucs and breed my own from my local Queen.(the first q I bred lasted 5 years, happy days) During that time I had use of a plum orchard in the clyde valley and attempted to breed my own queens in the same area, but due I think to lots of small holders using imports as I had, at least 50% of the queens were pale banded and although the hybrid vigour made them good gatherers they were impossible to work and I reverted to breeding in the back garden which is 2 miles and 400feet further up the valley, this seems to be enough to eliminate the mongrel drones. Pre varroa 4 years ago I had bred my own, couldn't decide at that time if struggling bees were due not only to varroa but to inbreeding and managed to get a local Q from Eric MaCarthur to add to the mix and had a little success using OA treaments till last year when cerana N gave a second hit.
The reason I thought it worth mentioning my experience is that I belive if I were a commercial beekeeper I'd be happy to live with the problems of a prolific commercialy bred Q or an agressive prolific hybrid to pack the supers with rape et al. While as a hobbyist life was impossible with this type. Impossible to resolve as the needs are different.
Even so is the SBA the place to list all thhe new sites who are trying to create breeding sites

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I was tempted in my second year in the early eighties to try a pale leather coloured Q from comercial breeder down south, she wouldn't stop laying in any circumstance and all summer I had to monitor to avoid them starving, although I got rid of her it did give me enough bees to be able to make up nucs and breed my own from my local Queen.(the first q I bred lasted 5 years, happy days)


Happy days  :Smile: 
Thanks for that post nemphlar its made me smile and laugh evertime I think about it

----------


## The Drone Ranger

This is a clipping I found which the SBA mag printed a while back

*The Mansfield News*
   “Robert Wood, an apiarist of some
renown in northwestern Ohio, is suffering
from the stings of a bee, and physicians
have little hope of his recovery.
   While caring for his bees he was
stung a half-dozen times, about a week
ago, and poisoning has set in. His lip has
swollen so that it almost covers the face,
and lancing had no relieving effect. The
poisoning further extended to the brain,
and he is now a raving maniac.”

_I suspect a there was certain amount
of exaggeration about his condition._

----------


## gavin

I expect that I would also become a raving maniac if someone tried lancing my swollen lips after being stung.

----------


## Neils

According to some you don't need anything lancing!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I expect that I would also become a raving maniac if someone tried lancing my swollen lips after being stung.





> According to some you don't need anything lancing!


You guys are nuts !

On a less frivolous note I would caution people about putting a honey coated hive tool into the pocket of your jeans

Bees can an WILL follow !!

This guy was on his way to the treatment centre when the photo was taken

----------


## Trog

Ha ha!  Great photo!

----------


## AlexJ

[QUOTE=gavin;6550] Alex seems frustrated by the lack of action his side of the water but feel free to cajole, suggest, and help Alex. QUOTE]

Gavin,

Not frustrated - somewhat bemused by the constant cycle of Amm v. 'non-native' from which it is becoming increasingly obvious will have little overall effect unless there is a co-ordinated approach to the subject.  I am of course assuming a few isolated enthusiast apiaries will have no real affect on the greater genetic profile of the honey bee in Scotland?  

Breeding queens isn't difficult for a beginner - access to good quality bees from which to develop their stock can be problematic; I'll breed my own queens in the interim and wait for the next discussion on the merits of Amm v.mongrels/hybrids

Jon,

Dismissing beginners as generally heavy handed and clumsy is doing a disservice to many able beekeepers with opinions as equally valid as yours.  The Coca Cola analogy was somewhat tortured, and Trogs dissertation on breeding queens not a paradigm I recognise for ensuring Amm once more dominates the north of these islands  though what do I know Im a self confessed beginner.  :Wink:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Guys forget all this and pop over to the cell punching thread  :Smile: 

See you there  :Smile:

----------


## AlexJ

> Guys forget all this and pop over to the cell punching thread 
> 
> See you there


Fair point - we'll end up going round in circles - off to vote!  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

Hi Alex.
My handling certainly improved as I got more experience and especially when I threw away the leather gloves.

I didn't intend to dismiss anyone - rather point out that poor handling, combined with poor swarm control combined with poor choice of queen is a recipe for disaster if you keep your bees in a small garden in a built up area.
If you read some of the other bee forums a lot of the discussion seems to about buying in queens as a quick fix solution to any perceived problem which crops up.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Hi Alex.
> My handling certainly improved as I got more experience and especially when I threw away the leather gloves.
> .


Be honest they were brick hard and covered in propolis 
Mine made a nice pair of shoes

----------


## Jon

I made a scaffold platform with mine - far more solid than timber.

----------


## Trog

[QUOTE=AlexJ;6611]


> Trogs dissertation on breeding queens not a paradigm I recognise for ensuring Amm once more dominates the north of these islands  though what do I know Im a self confessed beginner.


What dissertation would that be, Alex?  Folk have been importing all manner of bees to the north of Scotland and the islands for donkey's years; there are ferals all over the place from those that swarmed and weren't captured, and we have to work with what we have.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

[QUOTE=Trog;6634]


> What dissertation would that be, Alex?  Folk have been importing all manner of bees to the north of Scotland and the islands for donkey's years; there are ferals all over the place from those that swarmed and weren't captured, and we have to work with what we have.


Trog leave Alex alone and have a look at my thread on cell punching  :Smile: 
You will need to do a search for cell punch as it is so low down on visits it's invisible LoL!!
Got any honey yet ??



These guys are looking for it they're disappointed their bees are not more Ammish

----------


## Jon

Which one is Tonto?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Which one is Tonto?


He's the one behind the lone ranger 
He can be a touchy about the half breed thing mostly I just call him a hybrid
His temperement changed completely when he found out he was part Italian
(for the worse)

Gavin claims one of those other guys is Harrison Ford and the picture was taken at Gavin's Apiary
I have my doubts he tells lot's of porkies about AMMish bees

----------


## Neils

I'm more interested in Kelly mcGillis to be honest.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I'm more interested in Kelly mcGillis to be honest.


Looks like she might have bee stung by the botox bee

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## Jon

This was her in the Harrison Ford Movie.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> This was her in the Harrison Ford Movie.


Strange I wonder why she had the sex change ??

Maybe she was hoping to grow one of the big beards

----------


## AlexJ

Folks, if we go back to my original post (probably should have started a new thread)




> While going off tack slightly (though I thoroughly enjoy the debates on the subject)....   Is it not the case that all this talk of Amm superiority is largely academic in the face of a somewhat ill defined and confused national breeding landscape?  Unless of course the SBA has a breeding strategy (including increasing colonies and genetic characteristics) of which I am unsighted....
> 
> What is never articulated is how the SBA or local associations plan to work together to develop  a breeding programme to achieve the aim of making a more genetically pure Amm bee dominant in Scotland; if indeed such a goal is ever likely to be achievable?... Until a co-ordinated approach to the subject is taken we will go round in circles leaving small pockets of well motivated and first class beekeepers breeding bees that certainly seem to suit their needs and which may, or not, be taking them closer to an Amm type (if that's what we should be aiming for).


Trog you make my point exactly, as Dews and Milner quote in Breeding better Bees:using simple modern methods

_Ruttner (1988) says: "Experience over many years has shown that lasting results can only be obtained from breeding with a pure race, certainly not from breeding with repeatedly crossed (mongrel) local bees."_

The BIBBA 'Bee Improvement' Summer 2011 Number 36 reinforces this point of view in discusing core aims and objectives.

But that appears to be a fact of life in current beekeeping circles, and I have nothing but respect for those 'grandees of the craft' (cue images of strange men in aprons and gauntlet gloves) who have maintained bee stocks over many years in the face of considerable environmental and disease factors.  I'm in the same boat as everyone else in terms of increasing/maintaining stock - I'll breed from what I have, and what I can get my hands on locally (unless I travel and there's another debate).

That being said, unless there is a co-ordinated approach to the subject we will go round in circles.  Perhaps the next time we have debate the merits of Amm we should include the role of national/local organisations more closely?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I read "Breeding the Honey Bee" by Brother Adam recently and found it very informative.

In particular he says in his extensive experience of cross breeding any bees crossed with AMM drones are likely to exhibit "bad temper"
This apparently disappears in the next generation(s)

I'm glad I don't have someone flooding my area with AMM drones as I have spent years selecting for gentle bees and wouldn't welcome having to start again

----------


## Jon

The same thing would happen with any introduced drones from AMM, Carnica or Ligustica due to heterosis - which is why beekeeping neighbours have to work together if they are interested in bee improvement.

----------


## gavin

> I'm glad I don't have someone flooding my area with AMM drones as I have spent years selecting for gentle bees and wouldn't welcome having to start again


It is my ambition to flood your area with gentle Amm drones, DL.  There are already (and have been since pre-history) Amm apiaries in your immediate area.  I could name the owner of one now but wont.  He still has bees that morphometry suggests are purish Amm, but one colony from his apiary this summer which found its way to a beginner I'm helping was a nightmarish swarmy carnie stock, entirely unsuitable for a beginner not expecting his bees to swarm as they built up on this year's queen at the end of July.

Three of four swarms I've helped collect this summer looked like Amm, one was carnie-ish.  With this background level of Amm in the area, what is the point in trying to breed from stock that you think is incompatible with that?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

The area where the British Black bee can be found is quite large it seems

Scource SICAMM 

Doesn't seem to include Scotland ??

----------


## Jon

So what do you reckon is the bee native to Scotland? Buckfast?

Maybe some kind of white polar bee, I mean bear!

That map is claiming that AMM is found mainly between the 15c to 20c range.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

It's not my map Jon so I can't say for sure. 
Its from the international AMM society.
Perhaps what they mean is that Scotland is not considered part of AMM's normal range.

I saw a grey wagtail in my garden this summer but by all accounts he was outside his normal range -- just visiting so to speak.
Still putting honey in jars although it's late  :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> It is my ambition to flood your area with gentle Amm drones, DL.  
> 
> Three of four swarms I've helped collect this summer looked like Amm, one was carnie-ish.  With this background level of Amm in the area, what is the point in trying to breed from stock that you think is incompatible with that?


I thought AMM didn't swarm bet when you cut their wings off they are something exotic  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

These ones haven't had that pleasure yet.  Sssshh!!  Don't tell them!

----------


## Trog

Grey wagtails are common enough here, Droney, I think.  What's their range supposed to be?  Saw a wagtail belting across Tobermory Bay when fishing the other night - too fast to observe the type - chased all the way by a sparrowhawk.  You'll be please to hear the wagtail made it into thick cover!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Grey wagtails are common enough here, Droney, I think.  What's their range supposed to be?  Saw a wagtail belting across Tobermory Bay when fishing the other night - too fast to observe the type - chased all the way by a sparrowhawk.  You'll be please to hear the wagtail made it into thick cover!


Trog
I've only ever seen one Grey Wagtail
Mull sounds better all the time you might have me as a neighbour at this rate.
Do you think it's worth sending in an article on Grey Wagtail to "Scottish Beekeeper"

The green on the map is where they are resident and the yellow where they are seen in Summer.

The other possibility for an article is a potato soup recipe but I nicked that from the BBC website and they might sue.

As for the wing harvest Gavin you could collect some off the floor in Winter that would be kinder

----------


## Jimbo

Hi DR,

SICAMM are fully aware of the native Amm in Scotland so much so that they came to Aviemore for their conference a few years ago. The problem we have in Scotland is that there has never been a proper conducted survey done of Scottish bees since the Stokley's survey a number of years ago. Their method was wing morphometry but using a slide projector and projecting onto a screen to get measurements. Things have moved on since with the use of computers and scanners and specific software to do the wing measurements but the basic method is still the same

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jimbo

Yes I remember the SICCAM conference came to Scotland 
Not because I was there, but because it filled many of the pages of Scottish Beekeeper that month.
I am sure the editor at the time must have been very grateful, although, I think some of the readership like myself might have been somewhat bemused by the amount of attention it received, previously having been totally unaware of it's existence.

Still we all know about it now thank goodness.

I was checking out a website selling bees and equipment (can a mention them ?) perhaps best not . Anyway their initials are Bid4Bees there were queens on sale there among other things ranging in price right up to a Welsh black bee with some pedigree in the wing department -- a snip at only £45.

I'm a bit strapped for cash at the moment so I don't mind if you or Gavin dive in there and snap the little beauty up ready for next season  :Smile: 

I'm putting all funds towards replacing the bee jacket I have so many holes stitched up in the veil I would be better with a Burka and some net curtain

Ps. Its about time the ungrateful blighter's put you on the map

----------


## Jimbo

Hi DR
I'll give the Welsh 'native' a miss (we don't refer to them as black anymore) as I am quite happy with my local bees which just so happen to be high native Amm or near native Amm. Our local Amm colonies do need some help though in conserving the strain due to all the hybrid colonies that surround them. In particular by the new beekeepers who don't know any better. I have a policy of giving a new beekeepers who live on our Peninsula a nuc colony of the local Amm to help spead the strain in the area, hence I don't sell any native queens etc.
There are still pockets of pure Amm in Scotland and we are starting to discover more areas each year. We also hope to have DNA analysis done on some of these colonies to confirm the morphometry results. Morphometry is just a tool that a beekeeper can easily use but you must also take into account the other morphological factors for the strain.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jimbo

Very wise move getting the new beekeepers off to a good start.
I read some good online stuff about bee breeding in the States
I think the links are in the "why AMM" thread 

The main thrust was improving the bees but inbreeding was a definite problem.
In Brother Adams book he made the point that you need lots of unrelated queens to avoid inbreeding.

I suppose that is a worry from your point of view as well, if the population is a closed one and if all the new beekeepers have the descendants of your original bees you might need some new blood.

Ruttner apparently thought the AMM bee originated in Iberia and wanted the name to reflect that (Spanish Bee ??) probably something more latin Iberiensis ?

Most of my bees are a very mixed bag some black some stripey some more yellow

There seems to be a lot of conflicting evidence on the drone congregation area front.
From what I can gather most authorities say the drones from the local apiary are most likely to congregate at the nearest one 
About 10% go further afield and only a small % move from one to another

Queens on the other hand appear to fly away from local apiary a mile or so and this avoids inbreeding

To be able to maintain a breeding station in isolation you need a minimum distance to the next door bees of 6Km
The one I haven't got a handle on is how many colonies you need some claim its 700 to avoid losing sex alleles 
That's a lot of bees so they need a lot of forage that might point to breeding more on a National scale rather than local

What do you think being right at the sharp end so to speak ??

----------


## Jon

> Ruttner apparently thought the AMM bee originated in Iberia and wanted the name to reflect that (Spanish Bee ??) probably something more latin Iberiensis ?


DR.
You might be interested in this paper. 'Thrice out of Africa' Check the diagram on page 3.
The honeybee originated in Africa and the Spanish race (Iberensis) is closely related to AMM as it was part of a separate migration.

Amm is quite distinct from Carnica, or Ligustica which may well be one of the reasons for the bad reputation of the hybrids.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=thrice

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR.
> You might be interested in this paper. 'Thrice out of Africa' Check the diagram on page 3.
> The honeybee originated in Africa and the Spanish race (Iberensis) is closely related to AMM as it was part of a separate migration.
> 
> Amm is quite distinct from Carnica, or Ligustica which may well be one of the reasons for the bad reputation of the hybrids.
> 
> http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=thrice


The original africanised bees then ?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR
> I'll give the Welsh 'native' a miss (we don't refer to them as black anymore) as I am quite happy with my local bees which just so happen to be high native Amm or near native Amm.
> .


http://www.arthurbick.co.uk/better_bees/Blog/Blog.html 

Somebody should tell these guys that they are native AMM they think they are British Black

Interesting queen finding tips though check the link

http://www.arthurbick.co.uk/better_b...the_Queen.html

----------


## Jon

Jim is correct - black bee is a very misleading term. The worst bees I have ever handled were black as yer boot and I strongly suspect the colony was an AMM carnica hybrid.
I have requeened about a dozen colonies this year and they are all looking very good with regard to temper.

I believe the human race originated in Africa as well but I would not claim to be African.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I looked at the Galtee Breeding group site and I appears that when they started they had 250+ hives between the founders.

Would you say that's about the hive numbers you need to avoid inbreeding?? 

I'm still unclear on the numbers needed to avoid inbreeding.

What do you think??

----------


## gavin

Here's my opinion.

Totally closed population, long-term (think Colonsay).  Maybe 30.  As each founder queen brings a lot of diversity (including stored as sperm) then a much smaller number of founders would work as long as they were unrelated and as long as you go to a larger population in one step.  It is the queen to drone step that really whittles down your genetic diversity.

In a population that can breed to some extent with similar bees in the same region, maybe 6-10.  That breeding may be by outcrossing with local drones (assuming that your neighbours also have the same kind of bee, an increasingly rare occurrence) or, in a more isolated situation, by exchange of some stocks on a regular basis.

Of course some progress can be made by beekeepers with fewer stocks, but cooperation regionally is much better.

Another factor is that the more bees you own the greater their dominance of the local drone population.  And the greater likelihood that you can breed in the way you wish.

G.

----------


## gavin

Ruttner's map of bee races has a line that encompasses all of the UK in the mellifera area.  Today you can find free-living Amm in isolated and not-so-isolated crofts (some disused) in the coastal fringes of Wester Ross.  That suggests that they were native over a large area.  Also healthy populations of ferals in W Stirlingshire and several reports in Perthshire.

----------


## Jon

And another way to avoid inbreeding is to bring in an unrelated queen every year and do your grafting from that.
Swapping the odd queen among groups breeding the same race of bee should minimise the inbreeding risk.

There is a lot of worry in some quarters about inbreeding - but how often does anyone actually see pepperpot brood due to diploid drone removal,  as opposed to say varroa damage and removal of pupae which leaves a gap in the brood pattern?

I think it is only likely to be a big issue in very specific situations such as closed island populations with a small number of colonies.
This was all discussed at length in the 'another puzzle' thread.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Thanks guys

Sorry I missed the other thread 

Its just theoretical I suppose I'm just trying to figure out how it could be done.

Most of the people writing about breeding do imply very large numbers of hives are required.

So I am thinking at the moment that there can't be many suitable locations because you need a fairly high degree of isolation, large numbers of unrelated stocks (of the required breed) and sufficiently rich foraging to support the bees. 
Plus unless you do the testing for honey gathering elsewhere which means moving large numbers of hives there needs to be a main honey flow which would generate large enough surplus to differentiate between good and poor stocks.

The only people who might be in a position to tackle this would be commercial beekeepers.
Might it not make more sense just to provide a subsidy to them to use and breed their own queens?
After all there would be little or no oil seed rape without subsidy

Just a thought

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## gavin

Most of the commercial beekeepers are focussed on production (or commercial survival) rather than gentle bees or conservation.  OK, at least one now has switched from being an inveterate mixer and hybridiser to an enthusiast for a gentle pure-breed but one which is incompatible with the stocks that have been here forever.

The model that I hope we will follow is to have an isolated site for mating the core stocks that a few folk will collaborate to operate (site identified and agreed), and association apiaries for additional queen raising and preliminary testing, plus a network of contacts to try out the bees, report back, and contribute favoured genetics back into the central effort.  I could write out a diagram with boxes showing the different elements, but I'm sure the description will suffice.  All on a shoestring, mostly self-financing and operated by a few individuals who are also otherwise busy with careers, their own bees, local and national association duties and perhaps the odd madcap scheme.  That is probably the way it has to be.  There is no point looking to national organisations for leadership as Alex suggested because this will only work when individuals make it happen.  As it happens the individuals are all SBA members and some are active at senior levels but the drive doesn't come from an agreed national policy.  Such a thing might weaken the SBA as there would be members who would not agree with the direction taken.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Gavin,

Would the Scottish Government not be sympathetic to subsidy if the SBA lobbied them ?

I do like the general thrust of your plan but once the bees you produced were distributed you end up with a similar situation to someone who buys a queen of a known pure breed.

Trying to maintain the type would involve avoiding any open mating of subsequent generations, locking the beekeepers into either replacing the queen with another bred by the group or bringing virgins to the mating area every year ?

I am not saying that won't work in a limited way but it would never pave the way for the return of AMM bees other than the cross bred bees we already have

There is nothing wrong with enthusiasts breeding the bees they fancy keeping.

It's also important though, not to become so enthusiastic that criticism of the bees in Britain becomes habitual simply because they have no pedigree in their breeding.

30 colonies sound like a reasonably easy target to reach for a breeding program but presumably they have to be 30 with queens of the correct type.

Is there any evidence for the often mentioned 'selective mating preference of queens' where they are supposed to by some mechanism avoid mating with drones of their own close type ? 
That might protect against loss of genes in open mating in a protected area.

If I was commercial beekeeper honey gathering would be my top priority followed by non swarmy (less management req) 
Of course early build up is a high priority at the moment but if the oil seed rape subsidy disappears that would change rapidly

I was at the Verdant works in Dundee today it was very good 
In the early 70's I was able to see a real Jute mill in action
Fantastic stuff all gone now and the few eco bags etc. which are made now will never bring it back again
Even though it would be much better for everyone to be using an environmentally friendly renewable like jute

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