# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  All fur coat and no knickers ...

## Little_John

"All fur coat and no knickers ..." - a common enough expression which actually has nothing to do with call girls, but which is generally taken to mean "full of show, but with no substance underneath".

Well - that's the expression which came to my mind this afternoon after visiting the SICAMM site. Like BIBBA, they seem very good at forming committees, stating objectives, writing reports, arranging conferences and so on ...  but when it comes to actually supplying a few bees - it seems that all of these organisations are sadly lacking.

My bees are black - well, mostly black - there are the odd one or two gingery ones which stick out like a white man in Harlem, but whether this 'blackness' is based on AMM genes, who knows for sure ? And so I've decided to re-queen the whole apiary, using some Welsh Blacks I've manage to source, to at least get the genetics onto a known footing - but I'd much rather buy a couple of guaranteed-to-be-as-near-as-possible-to-AMM-queens, and start from that position instead.

I'd have thought that these grand sounding organisations would be making AMM stock readily available, perhaps even at subsidised prices ... ?

LJ

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## mbc

> And so I've decided to re-queen the whole apiary, using some Welsh Blacks I've manage to source, to at least get the genetics onto a known footing -
> 
> I'd have thought that these grand sounding organisations would be making AMM stock readily available, perhaps even at subsidised prices ... ?
> 
> LJ


May I ask where you've sourced Welsh blacks from, pm if you'd prefer  :Smile: 

The thing is with SICAMM and BIBBA is that they've not set out to provide stock or be some sort of shop for AMM, what they do well though is provide connections to like minded souls so that a little exchange of materials can go on.

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## brothermoo

Surely requeening your whole apiary will wipe out a line of locally adapted bees with what sounds like a fair percentage of amm genetic material there.

A wider amm genetic pool, even with a wee smattering of other genetics, seems far superior to me than a tiny yet entirely pure stock?

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## Rosie

A Welsh Black is a cow.  Welsh Amm are Welsh native bees.  I sometimes wonder if Welsh Black is used to describe bees raised in Wales that happen to be black.  A friend bought some once and when we tested the wings they seemed to have a  lot of carniolan in them.

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## mbc

> Surely requeening your whole apiary will wipe out a line of locally adapted bees with what sounds like a fair percentage of amm genetic material there.
> 
> A wider amm genetic pool, even with a wee smattering of other genetics, seems far superior to me than a tiny yet entirely pure stock?
> 
> ___________________________________
> brothermoo.wordpress.com


Spot on!  There is a very real danger of us loosing lots of valuable genetic material if, in the pursuit of the holly grail of purity, we end up mostly propagating Galtee or Colansay genetics.

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## GRIZZLY

What's wrong with Colonsay genetics ? - lack of availability perhaps.

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## mbc

> What's wrong with Colonsay genetics ? - lack of availability perhaps.


Nothing as such, its just that my interest in native bees is that when they are locally adapted I believe they offer the best option for sustainable yet profitable beekeeping.  I dont see that Amm bees from Scotland, Ireland, France or Norway are going to be any more adapted to my West Wales conditions than carniolans or buckfasts.  If every area has champions of their own local variety of Amm then it promises a healthy and diverse gene pool for future generations to work with, all of us going for the same pure Amm bees, however good they are, will leave an impoverished gene pool.

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## drumgerry

With respect MBC I disagree.  You're assuming that every area has their own local variety of AMM.  If bees in an area are AMM who's to say it's the original local variety?  Jon will point you to a video of French AMM being installed in Aberdeenshire in the 1930s.  If those made it into the Maud strain which is not impossible then they'll form part of the Colonsay gene pool as well (please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe some of the Colonsay bees originated in Bernard's Maud strain).  With all of the bee imports and bee movements I think we live in a world of very fluid bee genetics.  

I have no qualms about sourcing AMM breeding stock from outwith my area as there is none present in my area (ALL of the beekeepers that I know of (and there aren't a lot of us so I know almost everyone) in this area have bees brought in from outside).  My line in the sand is that I'd stop short at bringing it in from mainland Europe but Colonsay or Galtee are fine with me.  And give me those over Carnies and Buckies every time.  Bees with their origins in our northern and western parts of Europe will win out over more exotic strains every time in my opinion.

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## brothermoo

I think good pure stock is vital drumgerry and I believe that what mbc was saying is that everyone just shouldn't rush out and buy these pure bred queens to replace our own good stock or else we will be narrowing the pool.

Galtee queens have a big part to play here in Ireland but it is good to hear about Jon and the guys heading to Donegal to get some fresh Amm stock to bring into the mix.  There isn't to big a difference in climate across Ireland but still a local bee which has great qualities shouldn't just be stamped out due to a little variance on drawwing etc

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## drumgerry

Totally agree with you on the small variances Brothermoo - there'd be plenty to work with there and certainly no need to get rid.  But again that assumes that you have stock which is largely AMM - not everybody does and around here it's been a free for all for a long time(and still is). 

I was disagreeing also with the statement that Carnies and Buckies would be just as good as responsibly brought in AMM.  Having had stocks based on all of those the advantages to me of AMM in my climate are painfully obvious.  Maybe it's that I'm a few hundred miles north of most of you and in an area with generally very harsh winters and otherwise marginal beekeeping conditions.

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## Jon

> What's wrong with Colonsay genetics ? - lack of availability perhaps.


The trouble with Colonsay bees or the West Donegal bees I mentioned is that they will have zero adaptation to varroa as they are from mite free areas.
The arrival of mites likely gets rid of the most susceptible stock quite quickly.
I am curious to see what they have in Donegal.
The Galtee breeding group have been doing some work on selecting for more resistant stock for several years now so may be some way down the road in terms of bees which can deal with mites.

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## brothermoo

Or you might just find that they have some super-VSH gene that hasnt been tapped into yet  :Smile: 
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## Blackcavebees

> Or you might just find that they have some super-VSH gene that hasnt been tapped into yet 
> ___________________________________
> brothermoo.wordpress.com


I like that wishful thinkin' Moo, don't build your hope up though.

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## prakel

Not quite sure where I'm trying to go with this (and don't want to derail Little John's thread too far). It's probably one for our band of talented geneticists: 

How much (or little) isolation is needed for a true local type to develop in the kind of sustainable manner that allows it to survive over hundreds of years? This might not be too easy a question to answer what with the vagaries of drone-drift but I find the idea of these local ecotypes quite fascinating in the light of what we now know of the effects of inbreeding.

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## mbc

I think in a hypothetical stable situation very little isolation is needed, a bit like local dialects which blur at the edges.

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## GRIZZLY

I would still bring in colonsay or galtee queens to add to the gene pool in my apiary as my stock is quite isolated with reguard to other bee colonies non of which is amm .

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## Jon

> Or you might just find that they have some super-VSH gene that hasnt been tapped into yet 
> ___________________________________
> brothermoo.wordpress.com


In that case the Nihbs reps for Ulster will be retiring to a life of luxury on the back of the fortune to be made!
Must contact Branson to see if I can buy that Caribbean island from him.

Necker Island - the new black bee sanctuary.
Carried from colony to colony in a sedan chair as some minion checks frame by frame for queen cells.

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## brothermoo

A willing minion here to get bronzed lol

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## Top bee

Whats the definition of pure stock? 

Morphometry only defines visable characteristics so you could have black bees that are in fact have a high % of Italian genetics even with Amm mitochondrial DNA the genetics could be mainly Italian or something else 

From what I see is happening here is that the black bee has been selected haphazardly on the basis of morphometry and some mt DNA studies.  Also, there is no apparent breeding plan where tried and tested lines can be evaluated,  just a concentration on the aspect of queen rearing from a range of basically untested queens followed by open mating, these being used again untested for the next and subsequent generations which any beekeeper reading a book can do.  This is simply bad science !

Simple question - How far back can "pure" Amm black stock be traced and why are breeding records not publicly available for scrutiny ?

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## prakel

> ...and why are breeding records not publicly available for scrutiny ?


Why should they be?

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## Jon

All colony records and tax returns to be posted for scrutiny forthwith.

The Galtee bee breeding group keeps careful records of Amm and maintains lines of bees through instrumental insemination.
So does Eoghan Mac Giolla Coda who works 150 colonies.
Peter Edwards is a meticulous record keeper and he has a similar number of colonies.

The Native Irish Honeybee Society is collecting data on percentage mite infestation from colonies all over Ireland with a view to developing a line of bees which has some mite tolerance. The samples are being processed at NUIG and the work there will include SNP work to try and identify genes associated with varroa tolerance (subject to funding which is the ongoing problem)

Do I detect a whiff of an anti native bee agenda?
If you are a Buckfast breeder put your cards on the table!

I agree with you that wing morphometry and mitochondrial DNA tell next to nothing about whether your stock is native or not.

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## prakel

> If you are a Buckfast breeder put your cards on the table!


Not alone in my initial thoughts then!

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## drumgerry

And not even an introduction in your first post - just straight into the have a go at "the AMM brigade" from the off!  Also not sure why breeders' records should be publicly available.  It's not like we have anything as organised as an AMM "herdbook" although maybe in the future that might be a good idea.

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## nemphlar

Not wishing to step into main discussion, can I ask on this thread what is meant by varroa tolerant, are they never treated or does it mean they can tolerate multiple treatments. 
Mine are local dark, with the odd dark queen thrown in every few years to add to the mix when I can get one

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## Jon

Varroa tolerance is a continuum. Some bees deal with the mites up to a point and others not at all.
Some of the factors associated with mite tolerance are biting, grooming and varroa sensitive hygiene.
Treatment is optional, depending upon the judgement of the beekeeper.
Some beekeepers never treat, others treat as they see necessary and other treat as a preventative measure.

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## Little_John

> Not quite sure where I'm trying to go with this (*and don't want to derail Little John's thread too far*).


Good morning, Prakel - your comment made me chuckle !!  "Derail" ? LOL ...

This thread was intended to be about what I see as being 'deficiencies' in the BIBBA/SICAMM approach towards the preservation of (what are believed to be) native stocks of AMM. 

I guess I'd hoped that this thread might generate a few ideas, such as the above august bodies being encouraged to make it their business to also be involved in the physical supply of AMM queens in some way - such as the raising of EU sponsorship towards the creation of breeding stations, providing sales outlets, active marketing - that sort of thing.

But instead, this thread has become deflected towards other issues - no doubt important in their own right - but nowt to do with the OP.

'Top Bee' is of course quite right to say that being black is no guarantee of a high level of AMM genes, which is one reason why I'm in the process of converting to Welsh Blacks (Cows yes, Sheep yes, so why not 'Welsh Black' Bees as well ?) from a reliable source. These are not being described by the vendor as 'Welsh AMM' for precisely that reason. But - they are known to be good stock, and right now that's as much as I can wish for.

I sourced one excellent Welsh Black queen from Ricky Wilson last year, which I'm currently using to provide a supply of drones for my 'closed' mating system. When my other queens arrive, I'll then have genes from two different sources, which I think is the best approach to be starting-off with.

'Top Bee' is also right to highlight the deficiencies inherent in open mating systems, to which I would also add my own criticism of Artificial Insemination, for using AI may well be good 'science', but it's pi$$-poor 'bee-breeding', as drone selection is performed by humans, and not by the bees themselves.

Oh - did I mention a 'closed' mating system ? This of course has to be the answer to our prayers (perhaps I should add 'IMHO' here ?) - but are either BIBBA or SICAMM involved in such developments - of course not ...

All I'll say at this point is that I'm currently using a highly modified version of US Patent 5158497 (http://www.google.com/patents/US5158497), with the addition of an ante-chamber in which selection by competition takes place, with only the strongest drones being able to proceed into the actual mating chamber itself. The virgin queen is also 'tethered' in such a way that - rather than being held flat and statically - she 'flies' through the air with wings unrestrained (thus providing the best possible realism for the approaching drone), and has near full three-dimensional movement so that the queen can be 'bent double' in order that the drone may enter her from below - as this is now known from high-speed film footage to be the physical attitude adopted during copulation.


But - why should such (dare I say 'important' ?) work be left to one individual working with precious few resources - surely this is the kind of project which BIBBA and/or SICAMM really ought to be involved with ?

So - this is the sort of topic I had hoped this thread might raise for discussion, rather than generating the usual bun-fight over AMM fundamentals.

LJ

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## prakel

> This thread was intended to be about what I see as being 'deficiencies' in the BIBBA/SICAMM approach towards the preservation of (what are believed to be) native stocks of AMM. 
> 
> I guess I'd hoped that this thread might generate a few ideas, such as the above august bodies being encouraged to make it their business to also be involved in the physical supply of AMM queens in some way - such as the raising of EU sponsorship towards the creation of breeding stations, providing sales outlets, active marketing - that sort of thing.


Little John,

On another thread there's the mention that they haven't even decided on the daily programme of their conference later this year even though they're already selling the tickets. Might be the way things are done but it seems a back-to-front approach to a simple person like me. This sort of sums up the way I see BIBBA quite nicely; great ideas (even if I don't totally agree with them) but insufficient drive to get on top of the game. Others will disagree with me, but this IS the impression that they give me as an outsider looking in so that's what needs to be addressed. 

Another example is the new, better website which they set up early last year. What happened to that? Is it really that difficult to set up an inviting regularly updated website about bees? 


Regarding your comments re Top Bee's first post, if it's who I hope it is rather than who I think it is :Smile:  he could probably offer a lot of interesting experience and knowledge to this forum but instead of that it appears that he has some other agenda for being here.

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## Jon

LJ
In most places on GB mainland the bee genetics are going to be completely mixed up.
Morphometry is totally useless with populations like this and will not separate out Amm from the background population.
It will produce a lookalike which probably has a lot of Amm genetics if you are happy with that.

I think a better approach is to source good stock from various places in the British isles and start working with that.
There is certainly pure stock in some parts of Ireland especially in the far west.
Scotland and Wales will have similar pockets.

There are plenty of Bibba people posting here so Steve or someone else can explain current thinking.
In recent years infighting in Bibba has been a barrier to progress but by all accounts things are moving forward now.

I am more involved with NIHBS than with Bibba and we have certainly discussed the idea of setting up remote mating stations.
NIHBS also places a lot of importance on formal research such as the sampling and genetic work to be carried out at NUIG Galway.

There is a huge demand for Amm queens which is not being met and I think you are right to raise that issue.
Queen rearing is not that complicated yet few in the British Isles are doing it in any quantity.
I ordered 9 cases of 18 apideas from Swienty yesterday - destined for established and new queen rearing groups in NI
NIHBS has a regional structure based on the 4 provinces of Ireland and we are coordinating this as the Ulster reps for the organisation.

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## prakel

> There is a huge demand for Amm queens which is not being met and I think you are right to raise that issue.


At least one well known UK Buckfast breeder is said to be planning to start breeding amm bees.

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## Little_John

> [...] great ideas (even if I don't totally agree with them) but insufficient drive to get on top of the game. Others will disagree with me, but this IS the impression that they give me as an outsider looking in so that's what needs to be addressed.


Yes - that pretty-much sums-up my thinking too: well-intentioned folk with bags of good qualities, but there's something lacking there. The sort of drive perhaps which 'Dragon's Den'-type entrepreneurs have ... ? and I don't  :Smile: 




> *Jon* - There is certainly pure stock in some parts of Ireland especially in the far west.


Sure - but has anyone in Britain been able to buy any ? I've only found one Irish breeder so far who is willing to sell, but his queens are 'collection only'. If you could help me source a couple of AMM queens at fair money, I'm all ears ...




> I think a better approach is to source good stock from various places in the British isles and start working with that.


I'm sure you're right Jon, but I'm retired now and on a State Pension - so there's no way I could afford queens at £75 a pop. So I'll use the best I can find at my kind of money, and who knows - if my mating system proves itself 'a winner', then I'll invest in some of those gold-plated queens and corner the market ! LOL

'best
LJ

Forgot to ask - has anyone ever thought of using offshore oil-rigs or these infernal offshore wind turbines which are now littering our coastline as mating stations ?  Wacky idea maybe, but the companies involved would gain some serious brownie points for being eco-supportive.

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## busybeephilip

Hmmm.... selecting for water skating bees .

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## Jon

> Sure - but has anyone in Britain been able to buy any ? I've only found one Irish breeder so far who is willing to sell, but his queens are 'collection only'. If you could help me source a couple of AMM queens at fair money, I'm all ears ...


Give me a shout in June. I hope to raise a couple of hundred Amm queens this summer. They won't cost more than £30 each.

Micheál Mac stopped exporting to the UK because of all the paperwork involved.
I am in the North of Ireland so UK jurisdiction and no problems.

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## Little_John

> Give me a shout in June. I hope to raise a couple of hundred Amm queens this summer. They won't cost more than £30 each.


Thanks Jon, will do.





> Micheál Mac stopped exporting to the UK because of all the paperwork involved.


That explains a lot. I didn't appreciate paperwork was involved with imports from the Republic. 

Seems our political masters are fickle when it comes to arrangements with Eire - which is highlighted at census time, and when registering here for the Electoral Roll. Before joining the EU, one category of eligibility lumped together those people from Eire and Britain. After joining the EU the eligibility criteria became "Eire and Britain and those from EU countries" - as if our mandarins haven't yet woken-up to the ROI being an EU state. So Britain's relationship with the ROI is 'special' when it suits them, but not - it would seem - when it comes to importing bees. Bummer.

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## Jon

It is completely bonkers as it creates paperwork moving queens within the island of Ireland let alone GB.

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## wee willy

Do swarms report at customs should they stray across the border ?
VM 


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## Jon

There hasn't been a police/army check at the border in years.
One benefit of the Good Friday Agreement.
Obviously the bees respect their own jurisdiction unless they are entitled to both passports.
A northern bee needs to have a grandparent born before partition in 1921 to be eligible for an Irish passport.
Multiple supersedure doesn't count. :Stick Out Tongue:

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## wee willy

Back in the fifties I was stationed at RAF Ballykelly . We used to go to the borderland dance . The customs men often ambushed us on the return journey to see had any swag  :Big Grin: 
WW 


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## Poly Hive

Ok lets see if this will fly.

BIBBA have a hisotry of not performing. John Stoakely and I invited the powers that be at the time to Scotland and up they came gave their speil and were amazed by the morphometry of the bee samples on hand then went south again and never heard from again. Go figure.... then John sadly died very early.

So........ why not set up a web site, have private access to it, and exchange eggs/virgins/queens. ? 

Just leave the talking shops out of the loop and get on with it?

PH

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## drumgerry

Whilst I have a degree of sympathy for your point about BIBBA PH I think the issue is greater than just some like minded people exchanging a few queens between themselves.  My opinion is that we need an organisation to be in place to make wholesale changes to the way we go about things.  If you see the information Calum put up about how they operate in Bavaria then it's clear that another way is possible.

Which brings me to the organisations that we actually have.  BIBBA and the SBA.  I think the reality is that those two are not inclined to any radical changes.  A better example to follow would be the NIHBS set up by Jon and co in Ireland.  If anything real is going to happen in Scotland (what happens south of the border isn't something I'm going to consider here) then we need a similar body.  I'm happy to give my time to it but it needs a groundswell of enthusiasm and commitment if it's going to happen.  The Scottish government in its ignorance takes on faith seemingly everything it's told about beekeeping by whomsoever seems to have thought up some get rich quick save the bees scheme.  What I'm suggesting is that with an equivalent to the NIHBS in Scotland we could counter such misinformation and lobby for the changes necessary to give our native bees a fighting chance.

Colonsay was a great start but so much more could be done!

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## Jon

Go for it Gerry. It will draw attention to the damage done by imports to something which is native to Scotland.

PH - Wing morphometry is a pretty much a busted flush and many Bibba members are still in denial about this.
It is appealing because you can buy a scanner for £80 an seemingly use it like a home DNA test.
Wing Morphometry only works to identify one pure race subspecies from another when there has been no hybridisation.
This is how Ruttner devised it.
If you have a population of bees which is somewhat hybridised/mongrelised ie like most of the UK population, the wing morphometry will not help you to separate out queens which have greater or lesser amounts of AMM genetics.
I appreciate that in Scotland there will be areas which still have relatively pure AMM populations and Andrew's bees on colonsay have been DNA tested over and over.
Kate Thompson looked at wings and looked at Amm microsatellite markers and there was no linkage, ie a sample which has 90% of the wings meeting AMM wing criteria is not necessarily more Amm than a sample which has 60% of the wings meeting Amm wing pattern. Sad but true. A lot of the NIHBS people are in denial as well as they have spent years gathering info and there are still rubbish articles on morphometry being published in both the Bibba and NIHBS magazines.
Kate did a presentation about her work at the Bibba AGM and also at the Bibba conference in Llangollen but many don't want to hear what she is saying and prefer to try and pick holes in her work.

When people use wing morphometry as a selection criteria the wings will conform more and more to Amm wing pattern with each subsequent generation but all you are doing is selecting for wing pattern rather than the rest of the underlying genetics.

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## Poly Hive

I know this Jon. 

I suspect that starting from the ground up is the way to go esp if you want to try and have influence at the Scottish Government level. 

However and of course there is aye a but what level of proof is now required so that one knows 100% that the material being used is correct?

PH

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## Jon

Wing morphometry should be quietly dropped.
DNA work is getting cheaper all the time.
I gave samples from some of my colonies to the students at Galway and Limerick who are doing projects part funded and supported by NIHBS.
There are now hundreds of microsatellite markers identified with each of the various subspecies which can indicate if there has been hybridisation.
The guy I spoke to at Limerick said he hoped to test for about a dozen markers, or more if he has the budget.
He extracts the DNA from the bee's leg.

I hope to get some feedback before grafting starts this year.

If you test bee wings somewhere where noone has ever done morphometry and the samples have 100% Amm wings I would be fairly confident the bees are indeed Amm but otherwise the results will be corrupted by the selection artifact described by R Moritz in his paper 'Limitations of biometric Morphometry'. There is a link to it on the NIHBS website on the section with references about bee breeding and bee genetics.
I have sampled the wings of approximately 100 of my own colonies over the past few years and am as disappointed as anyone that this simple technique is actually of very limited use. If you start with pure Amm it would be useful for identifying the odd hybrid caused by an adventurous ligustica drone but if you start with mongrels or hybrids you are wasting your time trying to pick out the Amm. Might as well try and unmix 2 tins of soup.

You guys need to get the Native Scottish Honeybee Society up and running. We have about 600 members in NIHBS which is respectable enough in just over 2 years.

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## drumgerry

I'm wondering whether I should go ahead and write to the SBA magazine with an invitation to all interested parties to an inaugural meeting for a proposed society?  Gavin and I mentioned the possibility a while back and talked maybe about having a meeting in Pitlochry as a central venue.  I could book somewhere and we could see who turned up.  Gavin and everyone else interested - would you be up for that???  If so I could start another thread to guage interest......

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## Jon

We got about 100 at the inaugural meeting of NIHBS.
You need 3 or 4 people who will push things on at the start once the idea is up and running.

Irish native honey bee society inaugural meeting.jpg

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## mbc

> Might as well try and unmix 2 tins of soup.


Interesting analogy, the late great John Atkinson uses a similar analogy in his book, background to bee breeding, but with different coloured rice rather than soup, to describe the converse, how it's possible to "fix" a useful gene in a population with an outcross, and then to get rid of any unwanted genes that came with the outcross with a series of backcrosses.  He calculated that after six backcrosses less than 1% (1/128)of the outcross genes remain, and "it is usually pointless to go beyond this because individuals _within_ a breed vary so much."

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## Jon

Yes but the problem with wing patterns is they don't correlate closely with the underlying genetics.
If you are trying to fix an easy identifiable trait, that may be possible in a few generations if it is controlled by a single gene, but from what I know about bee genetics, it seems most traits are polygenic so they are not going to be easy to fix. The individual genes could be scattered over different chromosomes.
Even something like abdomen colour, how black or how yellow, is controlled by 3 major groups of genes and a whole series of modifying genes. Jerzy Woyke is the nerd on this sort of stuff. Gavin Ramsay Esq. can clear it all up for us.

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## Jimbo

I have been measuring wings from colonies in Scotland for a number of years 
Some of these colonies are in fairly isolated areas with very little breeding intervention by the beekeeper other than swarm control. The beekeeper is not using wing morphometry for selection
The results. I have show there is quite a few areas that still have pure Amm mainly from the West Coast and the Islands
The recent article in the Jan SBA magazine by Ewan Campbell where he used the Dral genetic test using mitochondrial DNA has shown that the markers are as expected for Amm from one of these Amm areas
I agree with Drumgerry now is the time to set up a group to look at protection and improvement of our native bees
Some of the aims of such a group could be to further survey the Scottish bee population
Look at obtaining funding for one of our Universities to do further DNA work on the populations
To lobby government and provide information to politicians (its ironic that that the government gave  Colonsay protection for the native Amm but put imported bees from a commercial company   
On the roof of their parliament)To set up a national bee breeding site and and assist with local bee breeding groups
I think such a group could still work with the SBA  but at present there is no enthusiasm within the Organisation to protect the native bee but a specialised group could



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## Poly Hive

Well folks there is only one way to find out. Good luck.

PH

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## Jon

> I have been measuring wings from colonies in Scotland for a number of years 
> Some of these colonies are in fairly isolated areas with very little breeding intervention by the beekeeper other than swarm control. The beekeeper is not using wing morphometry for selection
> The results. I have show there is quite a few areas that still have pure Amm mainly from the West Coast and the Islands


That's where wing morphometry has some use Jimbo, in a virgin area with little evidence of historic hybridisation.
The idea of using it somewhere like Southern England to identify the most Amm like bees where the bee population has been a mixture of subspecies for decades is where it has no validity at all.
That's what Kate Thompson found - no link between percentage Amm wings and presence of Amm microsatellites in the samples she collected from feral colonies.

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## Jimbo

I Agee with you I think England is a lost cause
There is too much hybridisation  but Scotland is different 
We need to set up some sort of protection for the native colonies we do have
There is also the problem of the varroe free areas We can get good Amm material from these areas but unable to help any groups set up in a varroa free area with Amm material without the risk of introducing varroa

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## Jon

Andrew on Colonsay will prioritise the supply of queens to those he thinks will multiply up from them. We had a conversation about this at the Bibba conference.
He produces fairly limited numbers of queens and prefers to try and get maximum impact from them.

England is pretty much a lost cause for Amm in the sense that the bee population is completely mixed. However, there is scope to form breeding groups which could work with Amm material brought in from parts of Scotland Ireland or Wales. Most of the queens I sold last summer went to GB.

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## Poly Hive

Where I found good measurements in the 1990's: Aberdeenshire, Kincardinshire and Morayshire. 

Might be a good idea to mail all the associations as not everyone by far is involved with the SBA.

PH

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## Jon

Problem as Jim says is finding varroa free Amm stock to move to other varroa free areas.
The last varroa free area I know of in Ireland in Glencolumbkille got its first mites last summer when some eejit moved a colony into the area.
I did wing morphometry on a small sample of those and they looked good.

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## drumgerry

I have a good knowledge of Moray particularly and it's been a free for all in terms of bee strains for a good few years now.  Especially since the ease of online queen ordering

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## Jon

All you need is 3 or 4 breeders with good stock and you can multiply up as many queens as needed for those interested in working with native stock.
Andrew's stock has been repeatedly tested and was the least hybridised of any Amm stock examined from various European sources.
If you get two unrelated queens and use the daughters of one to head up all the drone colonies at the mating site and use the other to take grafts from, you are up and running with just two queens.

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## Poly Hive

To go down the line of varroa free is frankly rather short sighted. 

Why would anyone assume that varroa will conveniently stay away? 

PH

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## Jon

It wont stay away but when you get beginners buying in bees from the English mail order companies into varroa free areas you can see why people got annoyed.

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## gavin

And Scottish bee sellers too.

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## gavin

Tomorrow evening in a pub in deepest Kinrosshire we're having a meet-up of a little group that met over a year ago to consider starting a regional breeding group.  Year 2 is about to begin.  We've made significant progress, involving people from different local associations, and the experience has encouraged me to follow Jon into a cottage industry bee raising business (using a different queen raising site from this group to be set up in the coming months).  Stocks come from various parts of Scotland and include dark bees that trace back through the maternal line to a man who kept bees obtained from Bernard Mobus in Aberdeenshire.  We have Colonsay bees too, as well as dark stocks from two other places on the mainland.  As we have not (apart from one small example) used wing morphometry for selection we will use it cautiously (along with checking other visible traits carefully) to help select breeders for 2015. 

One of our fellow conspirators was a main organiser of the queen rearing course in Summer 2010 and the winter bee breeding workshop in late 2010.  Both were very well attended, showing that there is indeed a broad interest in this in Scotland.  Jimbo presented, and Margie (who would be another key individual in an Amm movement) sent a presentation (snow keeping her away).  We filled Portmoak Hall which was some achievement so I think a Scottish NIHBS could get off to a flying start.  Details of the workshop are still here: http://www.sbai.org.uk/Breeding/

I'd prefer to plan to hold a well-publicised meeting later in the year (if we're going to do this), given that the active bee season is almost upon us.  I'll discuss this with our co-conspirators tomorrow and report back.  Gerry, Jimbo and anyone interested, maybe we should discuss a little first?  Worth a private forum area for this?

Someone at Llangollen - maybe Kate - showed a graph that implied that colonies at the end of a big scatter plot did fit racial origins fairly well but the ones in the middle (hybridised ones) had no relationship between wing traits and racial origin.  Once you have a queen that is hybridised herself at the chromosome level (rather than just carrying sperm from another type of bee) then that's it: her progeny will always be mixed.

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## gavin

> To go down the line of varroa free is frankly rather short sighted. 
> 
> Why would anyone assume that varroa will conveniently stay away? 
> 
> PH


It conveniently stayed away from Mull, Colonsay, Orkney and until last summer Sutherland too for the almost 20 years it has been in Scotland.  Ardnamuchan a year or two before.  Nirvana for beekeeping and useful material for scientists studying viruses.  OK, for two of these places someone, against local advice, brought in bees with Varroa but the bees and the Varroa died out before it spread.  I spent a significant amount of time helping to keep these areas Varroa-free and I don't consider the effort short-sighted.

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## gavin

> Gavin Ramsay Esq. can clear it all up for us.


What happened to that BSc and PhD?!  Anyway, I seem to recall that you had to correct me on the genetics of bee body colour  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Poly Hive

Sorry Gavin but I do not agree. Varroa is here to stay and needs to be managed as it is near inevitable it will penetrate eventually. I know it is sad and so on but most thought the Channel would work....

Many people took cells from Bernard and one of the big ones was Bert Mason at St Curus that might be worth a phone call. Also Struan had a lot of Mauds at one time and may still have something worth a look.

PH

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## gavin

Not completely inevitable for some communities that advertise their health status and beg people not to bring them in.  However, if nothing changes, yes - small hive beetle, Tropilaelaps, Lake Sinai Virus that cause such problems when associated with Nosema ceranae in Spain and any bee pathogen under the sun will get here sooner or later.  

The guy who took on Bert Mason's bees was down to 7 colonies a couple of years back before restocking, I presume with imports as the other bee farmers were doing so at the time.  I know less about the Robertsons but will ask when I see them next, thanks.  Unless Gerry gets there first.

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## busybeephilip

> All you need is 3 or 4 breeders with good stock and you can multiply up as many queens as needed for those interested in working with native stock.
> .



The buckfast breeders are also saturating areas with drones up and down the country, soon there will be more drones flying than workers !  (just kidding)

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## Jimbo

In Ewan's Acarine study there were about 80-90 samples sent from various areas of Scotland of those about 25% were pure Amm with the next 25% were near Amm using wing morphometry
The usual areas showed up ie the west coast and the islands, however there was a hot spot in an area just south of Edinburgh .
Anybody got ideas why there is this hot spot?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Poly Hive

I heard that Mason had a bit of a habit of losing colonies but that was pretty colossal, he was supposed to have 1000+ 

I'll give Hamish a call and see if there is anything lurking still.

PH

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## drumgerry

I think you're right about us all not really having the time till later in the year Gavin.  I think the subject of a native bee society does merit further discussion and perhaps a private section is that place for that.  I can also see the point of keeping it in the public domain.  Happy with either situation so long as we start inching towards something concrete!

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## Jon

NIHBS had its inaugural meeting in November when people had time on their hands.

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## Adam

> He extracts the DNA from the bee's leg.


Cue Pete and Dud 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh9MJMOMufY

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## gavin

Top marks for squeezing in one of the classics!

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## gavin

There was good support from the team in Clackmannanshire (wasn't Kinross after all) last night.  With perhaps a note of caution arising from possible looming additional commitments.  After the bee season is good.  And there was enthusiastic support from Wester Ross in an email today too.  Margie's hubby clearly has too much time on his hands: 

*S*cottish *N*ative-*O*rigin *B*ee *S*ociety - geddit?!  I think that could fly!

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## Poly Hive

Being out the loop that one flew over my heid.

Nothing left at Struan, I phoned last hight.


PH

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## Jon

> Being out the loop that one flew over my heid.


Bees are well known for that behaviour!

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