# General beekeeping > Starting out >  Late nucleus/colony start - few beginners questions

## voytech104

I hived nucleus on 24.07,
and intending to start another one on 27.07

I read that I need to feed them now to get my queen to lay eggs etc. 

Questions:

1. I hived the nucleus with empty foundation on both sides of the 5 nucleus frames - shouldn`t I put only 1 or 2 empty foundation frames and dummy boards to keep bees warmer and therefore more effective?
2. How long (providing there is good forage + feeding) it takes for bees to draw (build up) cells from foundation sheets to a stage that queen can lay eggs in?

I`ll try to find answers for other questions in forum/literature.

regards

Voytech

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## Jon

1. I would do as you suggest and reduce the space a little with a dummy board. 7 or 8 frames to work in is probably enough rather than 11.
if the weather is good I would not bother with feeding as syrup is only likely to attract wasps.
2. The bees will only draw out foundation when they need more space for brood or more space for stores. If they need the space it will be drawn out and have eggs in it within 24 hours, probably within 12. The limiting factor with regard to brood nest size in a nuc is the number of bees in the nuc, ie the number available to cover, feed and incubate a given brood area. No amount of feeding will change that.

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## voytech104

Thanks Jon for great answers - will help me a lot as I couldn`t find them anywhere.

I`m really taken aback that not many people actually advises about it. Basically I`ve been told - hive the nuc into new hive and fill empty space with frames.

Another matter:

- In Poland summer temperature is about between +25 and 35 degrees Celsius, winter temperature is mostly below  -10, -15 and always some time with temperature lower than -25. 

With that in mind most of types of beehives have twin walls with insulation between. Also Gavin said that commercial beekeeper from his area keeps his bees in styrofoam Langstroth`s and they have better survival rate. Having two harsh winters ( Polish style  :Smile:  ), dont You think that a little rethink regarding national beehives would be required to ensure better survival and strenght?

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## Jimbo

Nationals work well in our area Most european beekeepers use the bigger langstroth's but in Scotland any beekeeper I have know who have tried them say they are a bit too big for our type of bee and conditions The cold is generally not a problem for bees but the damp conditions are. I had colonies survive over the the last few winters with open mesh floors. I have also used National polyhives which also work well and give a bit better insulation. The main thing is to get your bees in the right conditions to overwinter eg colony strengh, plenty of stores and good disease control. I also agree with Jon on just using 7-8 frames with dummy boards and adding more frames as required

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## Neonach

> ... [in Poland] most of types of beehives have twin walls with insulation between. Also Gavin said that commercial beekeeper from his area keeps his bees in styrofoam Langstroth`s and they have better survival rate. Having two harsh winters ( Polish style  ), dont You think that a little rethink regarding national beehives would be required to ensure better survival and strenght?


I have a couple of WBC twin-walled hives (only one currently in use), and whilst I would agree that the twin wall is in very cold conditions better for insulation and (less sure about this) wind-chill (because the inner box is kept dry), the problem I've found is that working with the two sets of lifts is extremely awkward, and in windy conditions (and that's a lot of the time here) greatly extends the time you're actually working with the bees, and in which the inner hive is exposed.  I don't add insulation between the walls: because of the wind and rain together, straw would draw moisture by capilliar action to the inner walls, and synthetic insulation would reduce breathability (which will kill the bees). In fact the only reason I use the WBC at all is because it is in a very sheltered position close to the back window of the garden shop, and being classic beehive shape is a good advert. But other hives are Nationals, and as I expand (hopefully) it will definitely be all Nationals. I understand that compared to say Carniolans, Amm colonies are quite small and relatively slow to expand and you don't want lots of empty space around them - in summer they'll fill it with crazy comb, and in winter it will result in them chilling. For the same reason I learnt from Andrew Abrahams always to add empty frame slowly, only when they've just drawn out both sides of the outermost frame, and have largely filled the inner faces of those, and only when the chamber is full remove the dummy boards.  Keep it cosy but comfy!

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## gavin

We are probably talking about two things here.  Polystyrene vs wood, and Langstroth vs National or other BS framed hives such as Wormits or WBCs.

Langstroths are bit bigger than Nationals in terms of cells on comb even though they usually have 10 frames against the 11 of a National. If you use self-spacing frames (Hoffman frames) then you can often get 12 in a National which redresses the balance somewhat.

One advantage of a Langstroth is the availability of cheap hive parts abroad, something the commercial beekeepers make full use of.  One disadvantage is that if you are buying (or selling) bees on frames in the UK then your frames will be incompatible with the boxes of most hobby beekeepers.

As Jim said there are National polystyrene hives around too.  Just to confuse matters, they usually only take 10 frames which will probably mean (especially with the better insulation) they will be on double brood boxes much more often.  Ten is a nice round number anyway.

Murray McGregor runs part of his operation on wooden Smiths and part on polystyrene Langstroths.  The difference in winter survival can be dramatic.  Just to confuse matters further, not only does he have polystyrene Nationals available, he has some polystyrene Smiths too ... one found its way by mistake to our association apiary's stock. 

Feeding?  The advantage of doing so is that the queen will keep laying and you will have more young bees than you would have otherwise.  They can then help draw out and fill that comb.  The bees will be fine when there are those pink spires in the distance and the sun is shining (and the soil damp) but on the other days and weeks they will slow up.

G.

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## voytech104

> Murray McGregor runs part of his operation on wooden Smiths and part on polystyrene Langstroths.  The difference in winter survival can be dramatic.
> G.


That`s exactly what I`m asking about - Why the difference is so dramatic? If it`s not about better insulation why is that? My logical (and amateur) way of thinking is - bees have less heating up to around 35 degrees in the winter and less cooling down (air conditioning)  :Smile:  in summer. So, question remains - maybe little bit of rethink is needed in terms of design of national?

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## Jimbo

One other possible reason is the type of bee and not the design of the hive although I have noticed a slight difference with the polyhive which seems to have a more consistant internal temperature resulting in the brood nest not being sited in the centre like a wooden hive but can be to one side. 
If I am not mistaken Murray imports large numbers of queens that may not be acclimatised to our Scottish weather. The last time I visited Murray a few years ago he had a number of different types including native Amm.

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## Jon

I think it is Carnica from New Zealand he is using in the Coop project.
A nice quiet productive bee by all accounts but now what you want next door of you are trying to breed AMM.

With regard to overwintering bees, sending strong colonies into winter is probably the most important factor.
Last winter I lost weak nucs whereas the full colonies came through well.
We had exceptionally cold weather, a full week of temperatures around -12 to -15.
Two frame nucs had no chance.
I find that my colonies overwinter fine with about 30lbs of stores and often have a couple of frames of stores left in Spring.
I use nationals with an 18 inch square of insulating material between the roof and the crownboard.

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## Trog

That's interesting, Jon.  I had nucs and most colonies come through the same winter but lost one large colony to isolation starvation - they must have been just in the wrong place at the wrong time.  All on nationals; the nucs had dummy boards either side of the brood frames and polystyrene in all empty spaces and above crown board.  My brood tends to start on the sunny side rather than in the middle.

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## EmsE

> All on nationals; the nucs had dummy boards either side of the brood frames and polystyrene in all empty spaces and above crown board.  My brood tends to start on the sunny side rather than in the middle.


 I use double brood in winter, 7 in each box with dummy boards at the side & put insulation down the other side of the dummy boards and on top of the crown board- They wintered great. Mine also tend to build up on one side, usually the east. Probably because it usually starts raining her by lunch time  :Frown: .

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## Neils

> Langstroths are bit bigger than Nationals in terms of cells on comb even though they usually have 10 frames against the 11 of a National. If you use self-spacing frames (Hoffman frames) then you can often get 12 in a National which redresses the balance somewhat.


DON'T put 12 frames in a National, Hoffman spacing or not.  When the frames are new and only foundation they'll fit fine, once they're drawn and have a bit of propolis on them you'll have a hell of a job getting the first frame out of the hive without rolling bees and pissing off the colony before you've even started.  I've got a couple of Nucs that are supposed to take 5 frames, I've reduced them all down to 4 frames and a dummy board because of precisely this issue, once you start rolling bees lifting frames out they get annoyed very quickly.

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## gavin

It works for me!  Cannae be bothered with dummy boards most of the time.  Usually there is a quiet frame at one end (there are 12 of them!) and I'm careful not to do terrible things to bees.  Certainly don't roll them.   :Stick Out Tongue:

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## voytech104

OK, next question  :Wink: 

Due to lack of the hive, I transferred bees from 5 frame Nucleus to 6 frame Nucleus day before yesterday evening. This morning I`ve checked this 6th frame and it has been built up completely and I think there is residue of honey at the bottom of cells. 

Am I doing the wright thing feeding them just now? I`ll hive them to proper hive tomorrow and will add extra frames, question remains:

1. By adding extra feeding am I getting them to lay eggs or to store honey instead?
2. Should I have 'rapid feeder' constantly filled up with syrup 1:1 all the time or just add a little bit every 2 days or something?

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## Jon

Feeding is a bad idea unless they need it due to bad weather or no available forage. If you feed a nuc they will fill up the cells with syrup and the queen will have no cells to lay eggs in. In this sense it is counter productive.
I don't know if your weather of forage is much different from mine. I doubt it, and mine are bringing in huge amounts of nectar at the moment. I am taking frames of stores out of my nucs and giving them foundation or drawn comb so that the queen has more space to lay.
I noticed last week a lot of brood boxes are clogged with nectar and I am hoping they will move it up to the supers. One colony I artificially swarmed a fortnight ago had 5 frames of brood and the other six frames full to the brim with nectar and a bit of pollen.
Feeding should be based on observation. Only feed if they look like they need it. It won't make your queen lay more eggs unless you are feeding at a time when there is no nectar coming in.

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## Adam

I've just transferred three colonies to larger hives - all were jam packed with bees and the queen laying on all frames so they were desperate for the space. Weather hasn't been brilliant for the past few days so to encourage comb building I put some feed on. One has deciced to surround the brood area with the syrup and has also put syrup in the available spaces within the brood so the queen has little space to lay; _some_ new comb has been drawn though. The other two have have drawn comb out very well and there is little in the brood area. One was an 8 frame National which had 8 frames put on top giving 16 in total. 4 frames were drawn and filled in 3 days. 2 more were 1/2 drawn and partly filled - so to answe the first post - they can get a move on and draw comb if have a mind to! (I think I had the right age of bee which helps!)

Such is the confusion of the beekeeper! I guess we just have to be intelligent with what food we give them. Obviously I have just failed!

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## voytech104

Thats what I was afraid of... Problem I have that all 3 colonies are 5 frame nucs and all frames are just with foundation so its gonna take lot more time now to build up combs. I will check in couple of days if they build up next frame (there is no feed).  The weather will turn worse now (showers etc), but hopefuly they will grow fine.

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## Adam

In answer to Nellie, I DO put 12 frames in a National and 11 in a WBC brood box. The reason is that otherwise the propolis builds up on the hoffman bits and they tend to creep apart so you can then never get 12 frames in!
I do have some 5 frame nucs and lack of space can be a problem. However a bit of wiggling of the outside frame and the bees get out of the way - provided the comb is straight and there are no bulges in the stores.

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## Neils

I think you're all bonkers putting 12 frames in  :Smile:   But I stand corrected. I hate messing with 12 frames.

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## GRIZZLY

> I think you're all bonkers putting 12 frames in   But I stand corrected. I hate messing with 12 frames.


Nellie,12 frames WILL fit nicely in standard national b'boxes because equipment suppliers now machine the hoffman side bars narrower.They are not a tight fit and to use 12 instead of 11 gives an easy increase in brood area.This is much superior to using a dummy board because the bees will propolise the frame edges if the board doesn't push everything back together tightly.If you don't want the bees to add propolis to the frame edges -just smear a very thin layer of vaseline on the mating faces.It's easy to keep the frames clean and removing excess wax or propolis should be a part of your routine maintenance.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I think you're all bonkers putting 12 frames in   But I stand corrected. I hate messing with 12 frames.


I'm with you Nellie a spacer board -- thats the first thing out on inspection - then work you way through the frames - at the finish the spacer now goes back in the other side of the broodbox.

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## Neils

Rather than start up a new thread I thought I'd tag this in here.  For the first time since the beginning of April every box I have with bees in it also has a laying queen, result.

With an Eye towards winter, I feel that some of these Nucs are currently too small covering just 2 frames of brood at the moment and a full 14x12 with a mere 3 frames of brood. I know there's time yet and I've got plenty of frames of honey to go round, but when it comes to wintering Nucs, how much brood/bees would be considered viable to get through winter?

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## Jon

Swap out frames of eggs/larvae for frames of emerging brood from strong colonies and build them up that way. Plenty of time yet and they will pile in the pollen and rear a lot of brood once the ivy starts in September.

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## Neils

The ivy is starting around here already!

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