# General beekeeping > Scaling up and marketing >  One size fits all,

## Neils

I'm putting it here because I think it's the best place for it.

Currently I run 14x12 with supers.  I don't think there's anything too controversial about this set up, at least round these parts but its becoming clear to me that it's a compromise solution delivering the worst of both worlds in that I have brood boxes that aren't big enough and two different sizes of boxes/frames.

An occasional poster here runs all commercials but as a hobbyist and, more importantly, solo beekeeper I think running commercials as supers would be too heavy for one person to lift/carry.

Double brood 14x12 is more than possible but it means essentially triple brood national before getting to the supers and trying to fit them in the current extractor. 

Has anyone tried nationals as supers? A few people have met me and can probably attest that I'm not a shrinking violet, but having tried to lift two full supers once I'm not too keen on the weight.

What about all supers? There's a post from a Russian guy using small boxes but round here is be think 4-5 supers would be needed in a good year but I do at least have a lot of them.

The rose box is out, it's too far off any standard.

Do I consider langstroth mediums maybe? Though that does mean a complete change and off UK standard.

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## Jon

A national 14 x 8 full of honey will weigh about 55 lbs so slightly less than two full supers which would weigh about 65-70 lbs

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## prakel

I suppose the big question is whether you're set on standardizing on one size box -a tempting prospect, I agree. If you're not 100% set on that conversion then a good combination would be existing BS broods (however many you feel necessary) supered with 16X6 boxes. I never really understand why more people don't super nationals with commercial shallows. They're excellent boxes in my opinion. 

You could of course run on ALL commercial shallows thus saving your existing floors roofs etc (with individual brood boxes of probably very similar capacities to langstroth mediums). Myself, I'm running a couple of hives on MD shallows this season but I'm not really taken with the idea to be honest, but that's just personal preference.

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## Black Comb

I can see the attraction but even if fit lifting a national box full of national stores does not appeal.
I suppose one way would be to take an extra box (or boxes) and transfer some of the frames to this when you are removing these large "supers". More faffy. 
This would work better if you had one of those brush bee removing machines as sold by Doug, the now retired sbi in NW England.
It runs off a car battery and you simply put the frame through and it removes all the bees without harm. I have seen one in use, but don't own one.

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## The Drone Ranger

I've seen those in hotels 
I thought they were for shoes

My ideal broodbox would have just 6 frames and you would stack boxes like the Warre 
None of that nadiring stuff though
just stick the next one on top
Queen excluders when you want the next box as a super
You might need guy ropes to keep it upright though

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## Black Comb

Modern beekeeping jumbo langstroth 6 frame nuc holds nearly as many bees as a national box. You can buy dadant depth supers for them (as well as top feeders). When I eventually get up to my full quota of hives and have some spare bees I'm   going to have a go at this.

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## chris

I think  one important thing to consider is the size of your bees' winter cluster, and the possibility that they have their honey stores above them rather than at the side.
DR, you can work a Warré upwards if you like, in the same way as most other hives. Nadiring was a form of self punishment for beekeeping monks.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Modern beekeeping jumbo langstroth 6 frame nuc holds nearly as many bees as a national box. You can buy dadant depth supers for them (as well as top feeders). When I eventually get up to my full quota of hives and have some spare bees I'm   going to have a go at this.


I never knew that 
I must have a look online  :Smile: 

You are right Black Comb and they are on sale at the moment £29
They can be split into 2x3 frame nucs
Pretty useful bit of equipment all in all

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## The Drone Ranger

> I think  one important thing to consider is the size of your bees' winter cluster, and the possibility that they have their honey stores above them rather than at the side.
> DR, you can work a Warré upwards if you like, in the same way as most other hives. Nadiring was a form of self punishment for beekeeping monks.


Lol !
Ian Craig MBE  ex president of SBA winters on double brood box 8 frames in top and 8 in bottom 
I think that's in "My beekeeping Year" which he wrote for the SBA mag.

I didn't think you had Winter in France Chris  :Smile:

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## chris

We have hibernation.Can go down to -20, but-10 is more usual. Some of my hives in winter. 2 boxes, 8 bars up 8 bars down.Exactly how I intend overwintering my Warrés

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## The Drone Ranger

> We have hibernation.Can go down to -20, but-10 is more usual. Some of my hives in winter. 2 boxes, 8 bars up 8 bars down.Exactly how I intend overwintering my Warrés


Beekeeping on skis !!
Chris you are out of the frying pan and into the fire weather wise
The crafty French marketing types had me sold on lovely weather all year round

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## Bumble

> I'm running a couple of hives on MD shallows this season but I'm not really taken with the idea to be honest, but that's just personal preference.


I am too, but I'm not sure I like it either because the boxes seem so tiny and it's afiddle to have to split the boxes to see what's happening in the lower one. It also means I've run out of supers!

I've got one of the modern beekeeping 6 frame nucs, I like it. I'm not so convinced about using for two three frame colonies, so one entrance is blocked and there's a thin dummy board to fill the extra space.

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## beejazz

As a newbee I was advised to go with nationals, and did so, and have ended up with brood and a half, but I'm attracted to the idea of one size box throughout the hive.  Brood boxes as supers are out for me with my girlie muscles, so it must be smaller brood boxes.  I've been reading about the stable-climate hive by Roger Delon, translated by David Heaf.  I like the idea of brood expansion/clustering vertically, given the smaller box, rather than horizontally, I suspect that is what naturally the bees would do if not coming up against a Q exc.  Also the idea of the bees over-wintering with 'a dome' of honey above the cluster seems to make sense rather than having their winter stores to the sides of the cluster, and risking isolation starvation.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> As a newbee ... I'm attracted to the idea of one size box throughout the hive.  ... so it must be smaller brood boxes.  ... I like the idea of brood expansion/clustering vertically ...


I don't know if you've thought about it, Beejazz, but in case you are, don't be tempted to use MB all-medium one-size Langstroth boxes.  They're still wide, so you won't be able to successfully help the bees to create that vertical cluster shape.  Use 8-frame Nationals like Ian Craig as Drone Ranger mentioned in post 9, or get a Warré like Chris (I don't yet have any experience of Warré hives - so can't advise).
Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

> As a newbee I was advised to go with nationals, and did so, and have ended up with brood and a half ...


About brood and a half - it keeps happening to me as well, but I recently read an article somewhere of somebody who uses brood and a half as his preferred option.  What he does is to keep them on brood and a half over winter and then towards May add a queen excluder underneath the super to allow the brood to hatch and the frames to fill with honey.  He adds his honey frames above that original brood super.  Towards the end of the season he harvests the honey supers, remove the queen excluder, and leaves the original brood super, now filled with honey, for the bees as winter food.

If I get a hive with brood and a half again, it won't bother me any more.  I certainly won't try and correct the situation again by moving super frames into the brood box - that is a nightmare.

Kitta

PS: but take care of the drones ...

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## prakel

> I am too, but I'm not sure I like it either because the boxes seem so tiny and it's afiddle to have to split the boxes to see what's happening in the lower one.


That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. Definitely worth a try but just too shallow in my opinion. It's a system -all shallows- which I feel benefits from being worked without an excluder (and I doubt that there'll ever be a better season to test the theory). 


Going back to Drone ranger's thoughts on 6 comb boxes, does anyone here use 8 frame units? I'm talking about actual narrow boxes here, not full sized ones closed down by followers -been there and then realized how silly it is not to fill each box with it's maximum quota of frames. Again, this ties in with beejazz's thoughts on vertical movement and general nest configuration, something which I've commented on before(!).

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...been there and then realized how silly it is not to fill each box with it's maximum quota of frames.  ...


Not really silly, Prakel - it gives you flexibility.  You can increase the numbers when necessary and, more importantly, it helps with manipulation.  All the frames can stay inside the hive as you move through the box (both points mentioned by Ian Craig in his article!).
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Melifera 

Thanks for finding the link to Ian Craig article

I had never heard about the Modern Beekeeping 6 frame Nucs
or the Climate hive and I haven't seen any 8 frame boxes 
Its all good stuff wonder if it could help produce 6 frame nucs for beginners 
I can see one of you guys inventing a new hive type  :Smile:

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## prakel

> Not really silly, Prakel - it gives you flexibility.  You can increase the numbers when necessary and, more importantly, it helps with manipulation.  All the frames can stay inside the hive as you move through the box (both points mentioned by Ian Craig in his article!).
> Kitta


Just different perspectives. I've a few boxes in the shed, full of follower boards so I've certainly 'had a go' with them. Initially years ago when I bought into the Killion's doctrine of two followers and brood on all faces of the remaining combs. I gave up on that and returned to full sets of frames as I never really saw any real difference to the end of year results*. Then again more recently, when I bought into the idea of a vertical brood nest but I'm now thinking that it is pointless to have a piece of wood in the brood chamber when the space can be filled with a comb of honey and pollen.

edit: *although I probably fooled myself into seeing short term benefits initially. The important thing is how units perform consistently over the entire year.

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## chris

> The crafty French marketing types had me sold on lovely weather all year round


I bet they sold you a coupla of bottles of *red* first- makes you more credulous.

Beejazz, why the Delon stable climate hive? I won't be critical, BUT somebody who adds 5 mm. to the height of a hive, and then changes its name so people will link it to him,makes me question his motivations. Especially when afterwards he "invents" a frame and some wax sheets to fit it and spends his time selling these and other items.
In your place, I'd go for a Warré with a flat wooden crownboard plus insulation and flat meatl roof, and work it with wooden frames, supering or nadiring according to your taste.

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## Bumble

> Going back to Drone ranger's thoughts on 6 comb boxes, does anyone here use 8 frame units? I'm talking about actual narrow boxes here, not full sized ones closed down by followers -been there and then realized how silly it is not to fill each box with it's maximum quota of frames. Again, this ties in with beejazz's thoughts on vertical movement and general nest configuration, something which I've commented on before(!).


I could be wrong, but I don't think you can buy 8 frame boxes here, but they use them in the States. Langstroth or Dadant, not National.

I dummy mine to 9 frames rather than using the full compliment of 10. Dummy board comes out at the beginning on an inspection, the frames get pushed close together as I move across the box and it goes back in at the other side. These are jumbo/Dadant frames.

I got caught out with the double mediums though because I put the top box's dummy frame in at the opposite side to the lower one and they filled both spaces with comb.

Does Ian Craig go up to 9 frames for the summer, and back to 8 again in the autumn?

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## prakel

> I could be wrong, but I don't think you can buy 8 frame boxes here, but they use them in the States. Langstroth or Dadant, not National.


I reckon that you're right about the commercial availability of 8 frame boxes -but, the diversity of kit and ideas lurking in out of the way apiaries never ceases to amaze me so...maybe there's someone out there who's already taken a saw to their boxes!

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Chris 
The French wine that I most love is Pouilly Fuissé fantastic stuff but a bit pricey
It  seems that a Warre style hive with frames should tick most of the boxes ?
I think Ian Craig moves to double brood after Winter but I'm not sure 
He may be along to tell us if he reads the forum

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## beejazz

> About brood and a half - it keeps happening to me as well, but I recently read an article somewhere of somebody who uses brood and a half as his preferred option.  What he does is to keep them on brood and a half over winter and then towards May add a queen excluder underneath the super to allow the brood to hatch and the frames to fill with honey.  He adds his honey frames above that original brood super.  Towards the end of the season he harvests the honey supers, remove the queen excluder, and leaves the original brood super, now filled with honey, for the bees as winter food.
> 
> If I get a hive with brood and a half again, it won't bother me any more.  I certainly won't try and correct the situation again by moving super frames into the brood box - that is a nightmare.
> 
> Kitta
> 
> PS: but take care of the drones ...


Thanks for the link, so much to read!  I have gotten used to brood and a half now, but I have a tendency to somehow mix up the brood supers, usually when AS.  I will have to get some coloured chalk and mark the boxes.  About putting the Q exc on around May, that effectively returns the hive to a single brood, just when my supposedly prolific bees are getting going!  
I have been toying with the idea of keeping bees without a Q exc, and think it would be easier if the boxes were all one size.
I am very kind to drones, the silly things, especially when demareeing, I lift up the crownboard every couple of days in the afternoon to let them out, what a noise they make!

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I have been toying with the idea of keeping bees without a Q exc, and think it would be easier if the boxes were all one size.
> I am very kind to drones,  ... I lift up the crownboard every couple of days in the afternoon to let them out, what a noise they make!


Yes, I don't like queen excluders either.  I've watched even the workers struggling to get through.  I have three Langstroth medium hives (that I'm trying to get rid of - as I said earlier, I think they're too wide), but being one size, they are easier to manage without queen excluders.  If the queen has used a frame or two in a box too high, I can see if I can move those frames down so that she has a box of honey above her head.

Sometimes queen excluders are necessary.  I'm now going to make plywood queen excluders as described by David Cushman.  I thought they might also allow the drones a way out (well, I hope they're clever enough to find the holes around the edges).

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> I think Ian Craig moves to double brood after Winter but I'm not sure


 Completely wrong He winters the bees on double brood 16 frames 8top 8 bottom

 Ian says  In his "Beekeeping Year"   http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk...ing%20Year.pdf

" In Summer the use of a large brood chamber, or double National or Smith brood boxes, will give an excellent honey crop in a good season but little or no honey in a middling or poor season. All you will do then is rear large numbers of bees which will spend most of their time in brood rearing and store any honey they gather in the brood chamber."

I see from the forum there is a movement to larger brood boxes 
Ian was writing in 2007 
I can see his point do larger boxes have any advantages ?

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## prakel

> I see from the forum there is a movement to larger brood boxes 
> Ian was writing in 2007 
> I can see his point do larger boxes have any advantages ?


Possibly.... by allowing the colony to set up it's brood nest as _it_ wants to, rather than forcing '1 shape fits all' on them. Ask me again in four or five years and I may have different thoughts on the subject...

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## The Drone Ranger

> Possibly.... by allowing the colony to set up it's brood nest as _it_ wants to, rather than forcing '1 shape fits all' on them. Ask me again in four or five years and I may have different thoughts on the subject...


Will do  :Smile: 

Possibly spacers at the side giving fewer but bigger frames might be the best  compromise ?

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## prakel

> Will do


Looking forward to answering, but don't expect too much science!




> Possibly spacers at the side giving fewer but bigger frames might be the best  compromise ?


Ha! I've discussed this very thing here before (on the brood and half thread which I started, I think) but as I wrote earlier in this thread, I've shifted away from the spacer/follower idea on the basis that I might as well fill the space with pollen and honey, not wood or poly. The key here is, I reckon, giving them the choice to go 'up' if that's what they want to do; it's no matter how many combs are in the brood chamber so long as they're not (overly) restricted in the vertical  plain. Obviously there are management issues but I've got to say that as yet I'm not really seeing queens wandering to the top of the hives without excluders.

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## The Drone Ranger

It will be the Glenn hive for you next then  :Smile:

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## prakel

Maybe! :Smile:  But, I'm not suggesting that more combs in the base box are beneficial, just that if the space is there it might as well be filled with comb...

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## madasafish

I have a couple of warres which I have managed to occupy this year: both on two boxes.

Going to try a QE next year and build them big.

Currently frameless bars but decided to go for the semi verticals on the sides and a QE - which I shall have to make. . As with all of my hives, made from pallets..

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## chris

@ MAAF
I know of the frames you mention, plus the metal bar frames, plus very thin full wood frames. Being in my first Warré year at the moment, I'm still on top bars. I'm interested to know why you have decided to go for frames, and why that particular type of frame. Thanks.

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## chris

@Prakel
I have read (Ian Rumsey) that a wider framed box, with more frames would give a brood nest with a *horizontal ellipse*form, whilst the opposite would give one with a *vertical ellipse* section and that this could play a part in varroa grooming by the bees.

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## madasafish

> @ MAAF
> I know of the frames you mention, plus the metal bar frames, plus very thin full wood frames. Being in my first Warré year at the moment, I'm still on top bars. I'm interested to know why you have decided to go for frames, and why that particular type of frame. Thanks.


Chris.

I have found the topbars a real pia. I know warres are supposed to be left alone and not interfered with but in the real world.. that is - in my view - totally impractical. Given there is a local outbreak of AFB, if it came to my bees, an Inspector would find inspection impossible. And given the problems I - along with others - have with improperly mated queens etc and drone layers.. I have decided that some more flexibility is needed. I am not one for frequent inspections..if I can avoid it - but I'm fed up with swarms (my own that is: other's are welcome),,

Looked at wire frames.. Lot of money (well not really) and lots of effort (yes).

I'm a lazy beekeeper and KISS.. so I thought the half frame looks simple and should make life easier..

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## prakel

> @Prakel
> I have read (Ian Rumsey) that a wider framed box, with more frames would give a brood nest with a *horizontal ellipse*form, whilst the opposite would give one with a *vertical ellipse* section and that this could play a part in varroa grooming by the bees.


Hi Chris, can't say that I'm familiar with Ian Rumsey's opinions but I've just done a quick net search and got a 'taste' although detailed articles seem to be lacking -I'll search again this evening (unless you can offer some 'easy' links in the meantime!!).

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## chris

Hi Prakel, try this one

http://pcela.rs/ian_pure_simple2.htm

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## JenB

First time on the forum for me after on and off stalking for a while! 
Currently I have old, wooden, 'homemade I think, Smiths. They have been fine to get me started but I am now ready to get properly set up and I'm thinking Polystyrene is the way to go.
But which hive? I like the idea of one size of box but I'm not overly concerned if I have to have 2 different sizes. I have been tempted by the Modern Beekeeping Langstroth maybe all on mediums or deep and mediums but have seen some negative comments about them. Would I be best to go for National just to fit in with everyone else but end up with the 1 1/2 or double brood box quandary from time to time.  
This is my one chance to 'get it right' so I'd be grateful for any advice.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi JenB
I use Smith Hives, and if you can afford them, the cedar brood and super boxes from Thornes will last forever.
They don't need any treatment and are very light when empty
Polystyene needs painting

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## Bumble

Paynes sell Swienty Langstroths. The complete hive is a good price, but you can buy one size of box if you want.

Beehive Supplies in Cornwall do standard National and 14x12, their hives are rather amazing. Paynes do standard national, 14x12 and both size nucs. All frames etc are cross compatible with wooden nationals. If you want to try each supplier Beehive Supplies Nationals and Paynes Nationals can be used together, they collaborated on certain aspects of the design.

C Wynne Jones do Swienty Nationals, but I've never seen one. I've heard they are top bee space, but I could be completely wrong.

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## prakel

> Hi Prakel, try this one
> 
> http://pcela.rs/ian_pure_simple2.htm


Hi Chris, thanks for the link (some other really interesting stuff on that site too). Not sure that I'm totally sold on the idea but it is an interesting perspective -I like beekeepers who think outside of the usual confines.

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## The Drone Ranger

If you use a fine mesh on your Snelgrove board you have most all the brood above the board and the laying queen in a different box below with 2 supers between
That's a similar to a tall hive in that most of the varroa are now a long way from the broodnest

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## prakel

On the subject of shallow boxes this is quite an interesting perspective:


TWO-QUEEN COLONY MANAGEMENT FOR PRODUCTION OF HONEY United States Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service, August 1958 ARS-33-48  by C. L. Farrar, Entomology Research Division 





> A shallow hive body for both brood chambers and supers has advan- 
> tages when intensive management practices are applied to either single- 
> or two-queen colonies. Early in the evolution of hive equipment, shallow 
> brood chambers fell into disrepute because they were used to restrict 
> brood rearing in order to force more honey into the supers. The 
> resulting small colonies neither produced nor survived the winter as 
> well as those in deeper hives. All these early hives were small by 
> present standards, because multiple brood chambers are now used with 
> all sizes of hive equipment. The size and shape of the hive units have 
> ...


Full manual can be read here: http://archive.org/stream/twoqueenco...8farr_djvu.txt

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## prakel

Taken from the CL Farrar quote above:




> ....Shallow equipment has advantages not only for the productive season 
> but also in the overwintering of large colonies. The space between brood 
> chambers favors the movement of bees within the winter cluster.


I also wonder whether this same arrangement using shallows may help optimize pheromone distribution through the brood nest.

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