# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Rebecca and Ged Marshall on the beeb

## gavin

One of the UK's foremost queen breeders, now with his daughter in the business.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33663048

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## SDM

I was a bit unimpressed with this.
The aim of the aprenticeship is to bring new blood to the industry specifically 18-24 yr olds(a fantastic idea)
Yet the first is a 26yr old who has worked for Buckfast Denmark rearing queens for years and as far as I know is taking over from Jed next year, all paid for by Rowse who Jed supplies.
If I thought for one second the next 26 yr old that applies would get the same treatment I'd be less worried about the scheme.
I'm a big fan of the aprenticeship concept,  but I feel this is a little self serving andets face it , she hasn't been living on the £75(or whatever pitance) they'll be paying other apprentices.
My other worrry is finishing salary and career path. Is it even possible to pay someone a living wage in Beekeeping ?   Or do they expect each aprenticeship to go and get a few thousand bives of his own straight after living off fresh air for 4 yrs ?

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi SDM nice to see someone new posting

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## gavin

There were (maybe are) seven apprentices in the BFA scheme.  Rowse pay for the training whereas the host bee farmer pays the apprentice.  As for the ages, the scheme started in 2014 so perhaps Rebecca was 24 then.  I don't know her but I've met her father and he's a helpful, lovely bloke.  The career path is presumably to set up in business as an independent bee farmer and my goodness, they need the training and other support to achieve that.  I'm not sure why you seem so critical - is this not a good thing?  

You can read more here: http://beefarmers.co.uk/apprenticeships/

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## HJBee

If anything bringing attention of younger folk to the more professional aspects of beekeeping is worth it, however incestuous you think this may be. In my experience, the bee keeping world is quite small, so yes folk know other folk. It would be good if Rowse had a non EU Blend range, maybe this kind of scheme can help deliver this.

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## SDM

I did say , that I think it could be a fantastic idea.
OK , I'm mid 20's just finished my aprenticeship, have no money because I've been paid very little for 3 yrs. Now I'm unemployed and now need sites for let's say 200 hives (a minimum figure I've heard used before for being able to make a living)
There is simply no chance of an aprenticeship being able to find sites and fund a business startup that could possibly earn a living. 
It's less the scheme, more what comes after that bothers me, even with all the knowledge where will the land and money to start come from. No bank will lend a startup that could fail several years running just from weather the sums of money necessary. Which would make it the worst type of aprenticeship, the kind that just abuses 3 years cheap labour with no hope of employment at the end.
Unless of course it's an aprenticeship for land owners  rich kids and business owners.

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## SDM

I'll never be happier to be wrong though.

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## gavin

I'm sure that the scheme is designed to be helpful and try to get apprentices established.  I doubt very much whether the host would have employed an apprentice to get work done - it takes a lot of additional time to teach people on the job and if the host was after cheap labour he/she would have tapped into the pool of experienced beekeeping assistants available, many from E Europe.  One guy I know helped his apprentice by donating sites to her.

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## SDM

> There were (maybe are) seven apprentices in the BFA scheme.  Rowse pay for the training whereas the host bee farmer pays the apprentice.  As for the ages, the scheme started in 2014 so perhaps Rebecca was 24 then.  I don't know her but I've met her father and he's a helpful, lovely bloke.  The career path is presumably to set up in business as an independent bee farmer and my goodness, they need the training and other support to achieve that.  I'm not sure why you seem so critical - is this not a good thing?  
> 
> You can read more here: http://beefarmers.co.uk/apprenticeships/


I don't know them at all, but know folk that do and everybody says they're good people.
But Rebecca could happily have taught the aprenticeship as she had years with buckfast Denmark which is where Jed gets his queens.
Incestuous for sure.

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## HJBee

I hope you are ️

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## SDM

> I'm sure that the scheme is designed to be helpful and try to get apprentices established.  I doubt very much whether the host would have employed an apprentice to get work done - it takes a lot of additional time to teach people on the job and if the host was after cheap labour he/she would have tapped into the pool of experienced beekeeping assistants available, many from E Europe.  One guy I know helped his apprentice by donating sites to her.


If I take a complete novice , show him the same procedure on 10 hives, is there honestly any manipulation in Beekeeping that he couldn't then copy.?
That's actually how I learned, a Turkish commercial beek in France was my mentor, I inspected 115 hives that first day he did 200. I was simply confirming queen and no queen cells.
How much would an experienced beek want paying for servicing 200 hives ?
It took him 5 or 6 hives before he had one with queen cells after I'd seen them I did 2 with him watching and then off on my own. It took him less than n hour to train me for the next 8 hours work. That was day one, the discrepancy would be much worse as more general knowledge was gained.
It's not rocket science.

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## gavin

There are 22 different topics listed as topics to study in that BFA link I posted earlier.  I learned a few of them myself as I'm now trying to turn a coin from beekeeping.  

Being able to perform a cursory examination of hives for queen cells isn't quite enough to run a bee business.

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## SDM

Absolutely not, but in a commercial environment, most of the learning will be through repetition, so as an assistant , I was a commercial asset nearly immediately and so will most of the apprentices.
Training can only be given so many ways and that side of it is not really my concern. I'm much more worried about afterwards. So for completely new to Beekeeping folk, who do t own their own land or have a " British honey producers" to inherit, would someone like to give me an estimate of setting up a 200 hive business ?

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## SDM

I simply fear that those without Rebecca's obvious head start will simply take paid positions in other countries like new Zealand who have an emergency skills shortage for beeks and pay better than average wage ($60k NZ)for qualified beeks(and no age restrictions either).
But that isn't going to help Beekeeping in the UK.
I've just sorted my first out apiary which by chance has led to the opportunity to go from 25 colonies to 150 ish. By next year.  My primary income comes sept-april so I can jump in without loosing income, but still I have a huge amount of work to do and money to spend to make it possible. I already own the 5 acres of my home apiary and by chance have come across someone with huge amounts of land and just happened to be thinking about finding himself someone to produce honey for him to sell(he has an interesting branding, I can't really say more about yet).
Are there any commercial beeks in the UK that don't own any of their sites ?

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## mbc

> I simply fear that those without Rebecca's obvious head start will simply take paid positions in other countries like new Zealand who have an emergency skills shortage for beeks and pay better than average wage ($60k NZ)for qualified beeks(and no age restrictions either).
> But that isn't going to help Beekeeping in the UK.
> I've just sorted my first out apiary which by chance has led to the opportunity to go from 25 colonies to 150 ish. By next year.  My primary income comes sept-april so I can jump in without loosing income, but still I have a huge amount of work to do and money to spend to make it possible. I already own the 5 acres of my home apiary and by chance have come across someone with huge amounts of land and just happened to be thinking about finding himself someone to produce honey for him to sell(he has an interesting branding, I can't really say more about yet).
> Are there any commercial beeks in the UK that don't own any of their sites ?


As it happens I'm a commercial beekeeper who doesn't own any of my sites(over 20, thank you farmers :Smile: ) I've also spent a season on a nz bee farm 15 years ago to learn a bit, the learning curve was steep, you must be much quicker than me to pick it all up so easily, I think I would have benefited greatly from this apprenticeship scheme back then, mostly through networking opportunities but also kinesthetic learning from people who walk the walk. I think it's fantastic young enthusiasts now have this opportunity, don't knock it.

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## drumgerry

As regards owning sites....I'd be surprised if a single commercial beekeeper owned any of their heather stances - land ownership being what it is in Scotland.

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## SDM

That's true of heather sites in Wales too, its all managed by"natural resources Wales " but you still need your other apiaries because they'll only be on the heather about 6 weeks.
MBC did you get them all at the same time or did it take you a decade or so ?
These people are going to be unemployed and needing masses of equipment and sites or they are simply going under year one.
I've also heard it said that if Beekeeping is your sole income , you should have 2 yrs finance in reserve ?or a gainfully employed othdy half, an impossible position for any apprentice.
An industrial training scheme is long overdue and if I was younger I'd have loved it.
I'll reserve judgement til I hear what happens to them on completion.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Absolutely not, but in a commercial environment, most of the learning will be through repetition, so as an assistant , I was a commercial asset nearly immediately and so will most of the apprentices.
> Training can only be given so many ways and that side of it is not really my concern. I'm much more worried about afterwards. So for completely new to Beekeeping folk, who do t own their own land or have a " British honey producers" to inherit, would someone like to give me an estimate of setting up a 200 hive business ?


I think networking would be a key skill
The ability to negotiate would be important as well

As for owning land I don't imagine that would make much sense 
Commercial beekeeping is a migratory concern
Finding the right spot at the right time to place hives
Knowing how many to bring to any location

Deciding whether extraction and processing plant is needed or can be afforded

What business are you in is it queen sales , nuc sales, Honey production
Will you buy in honey from beekeepers , produce it all yourself ?
That's going to determine how many hives you need
What statutory regulations might you encounter , employment law for example

Then there's Marketing Branding,Selling etc.etc. etc

Sort of all the things any business would have to consider 

You must know some or all of this if you have worked in a big commercial operation ?

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## mbc

> MBC did you get them all at the same time or did it take you a decade or so ?
> 
> I've also heard it said that if Beekeeping is your sole income , you should have 2 yrs finance in reserve ?


My apiaries are a work in progress, the worst ones get dropped and I'm always looking for good new sites, it's a holistic process and generally I've found apiaries as bee numbers have dictated I need them.
I started on a shoe string with no financial reserves but a willingness to turn my hand at earning an alternative income in the quiet season, it's resulted in a bit of a Hodge podge of a tin pot operation but overheads are low and I'm still in business after two decades ( may have to do a bit of labouring this winter as crop forecast is dismal!). A high earning spouse would be a godsend but I've not had that either and have been my families primary wage earner. If the passion and willingness to make sacrifices is there then it can be done, "where there's a will, there's a way".
I don't see apprentices in any field walking out of the apprenticeships into owning a ready made business, the usual mo is to work for someone else for a few years more. I think one of the aims of the bfa apprenticeship scheme is to provide a route for succession planning, most bee farmers being ancient with bits starting to fall off.

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## SDM

> My apiaries are a work in progress, the worst ones get dropped and I'm always looking for good new sites, it's a holistic process and generally I've found apiaries as bee numbers have dictated I need them.
> I started on a shoe string with no financial reserves but a willingness to turn my hand at earning an alternative income in the quiet season, it's resulted in a bit of a Hodge podge of a tin pot operation but overheads are low and I'm still in business after two decades ( may have to do a bit of labouring this winter as crop forecast is dismal!). A high earning spouse would be a godsend but I've not had that either and have been my families primary wage earner. If the passion and willingness to make sacrifices is there then it can be done, "where there's a will, there's a way".
> I don't see apprentices in any field walking out of the apprenticeships into owning a ready made business, the usual mo is to work for someone else for a few years more. I think one of the aims of the bfa apprenticeship scheme is to provide a route for succession planning, most bee farmers being ancient with bits starting to fall off.


It was Gavin who suggested that the career path was to set up alone after qualification, but as we can see there are huge practical and financial obstacles that make that impossible (at least for some years) who here could make 200 bives this winter after 3 yrs of low income ?
Depending on the time of year they qualify , they will have a month of months and possibly years before they see any income(who would pay for their new business).
So in short I think k we can forget about it being setup to send them out into business on their own, as there isn't another aprenticeship model that does this.
So where is their career path ? do they propose some further qualifications ?, there is no mention of it, no suggestion of a finishing salary. Honestly I don't think Beekeeping in the UK could ever afford to pay the wages of any but migrant labour.
So again I say, what happens to them when they finish 3 years cheap labour ?
There's just no mention of it from the BFA

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## SDM

If its all about succession planning then its simply a way to get govt. Subsidies for your kids wages for those with established businesses.
I thought it was to bring" new" people to the industry. We no a broad gene pool is good for a species, but apparently not for beekeepers ?

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## gavin

You don't get a finishing salary in self-employment, beekeeping or otherwsie, you find inventive ways of making things happen and making ends meet, just as mbc described.  Folk with a passion to do something find a way, and all this scheme does is help.  

Government subsidies?!  Where on earth are the government subsidies?  This is 100% industry funded as far as I can see. 

Two Ps in apprentice  :Big Grin: .

'know' not 'no'

'kid's wages'

misplaced "

There's even a misplaced capital.

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## mbc

The NZ milk industry has a proud history of providing a route in for new blood and succession for the old through a milk share scheme during handover.  I can envisage something similar for retiring beefarmers who don't have interested family, a crop share during the handover year/years. Maybe something useful the bfa could do would be to facilitate a bridging loan or insurance in case of crop failure during this time.

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## SDM

> You don't get a finishing salary in self-employment, beekeeping or otherwsie, you find inventive ways of making things happen and making ends meet, just as mbc described.  Folk with a passion to do something find a way, and all this scheme does is help.  
> 
> Government subsidies?!  Where on earth are the government subsidies?  This is 100% industry funded as far as I can see. 
> 
> Two Ps in apprentice .
> 
> 'know' not 'no'
> 
> 'kid's wages'
> ...


Sorry there's a glitch on my phone where if I erase it just keeps inserting more and more words or parts of.
I'll try and edit as I go.
It obviously not clear since Gavin thinks they will be immediately self employed and others think they'll be retained on a wage.
I think before we discuss both options more we should know which it is, because I don't.

There are various grants to the training provider from the govt.
So in the case of British honey producers , Rebecca's father was paid for the trouble of employing someone(that he already did) who didn't need the training in the first place.
At the very least, this is a questionable and not very auspicious start.

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## SDM

> You don't get a finishing salary in self-employment, beekeeping or otherwsie, you find inventive ways of making things happen and making ends meet, just as mbc described.  Folk with a passion to do something find a way, and all this scheme does is help.  
> 
> Government subsidies?!  Where on earth are the government subsidies?  This is 100% industry funded as far as I can see. 
> 
> Two Ps in apprentice .
> 
> 'know' not 'no'
> 
> 'kid's wages'
> ...


Sorry there's a glitch on my phone where if I erase it just keeps inserting more and more words or parts of.
I'll try and edit as I go.
It obviously not clear since Gavin thinks they will be immediately self employed and others think they'll be retained on a wage.
I think before we discuss both options more we should know which it is, because I don't.

There are various grants to the training provider from the govt.
So in the case of British honey producers , Rebecca's father was paid for the trouble of employing someone(that he already did) who didn't need the training in the first place. If you add to that the fact that she was her father's accountant before she started the scheme(I believe)
At the very least, this is a questionable and not very auspicious start.

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## prakel

> It obviously not clear since Gavin thinks they will be immediately self employed and others think they'll be retained on a wage.
> I think before we discuss both options more we should know which it is, because I don't.


Will surely depend on the individual, just like those twenty something's that take a degree in one subject and then transfer skills into an (apparently) unrelated career. Some will no doubt become beefarmers while others will gravitate into different spheres. 

Meanwhile, of those who continue with the bees a lot will probably want to use their experience and qualifications to work for large enterprises abroad, others may find that they're encouraged to stay on with the business they've been apprenticed to (isn't that a common route with this modern apprentice scheme in other sectors?) while finally, some may be in a position to go it alone but as someone who's experienced life at the hard end of self employment I reckon that the best way to do this would be by building up colony numbers (at least a core unit of good stocks) and some of the ancillary gear during the term of the apprenticeship. Sure it's hard to do that on a very low wage but I think that the apprentice will never have a better opportunity to hear of bargains or to do deals with an employer.

So, I can't see how there can be any hard and fast rules. People's aspirations often change with time.

All of that said, I do follow your questioning as to whether it is turning into more of an in-house scheme rather than a way to encourage newcomers into the industry maybe because it's easier to find suitable candidates within the employers existing network. But that's something which'll work itself out in time anyway.

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## mbc

> At the very least, this is a questionable and not very auspicious start.


I dont see why you're picking holes, the new scheme needed rolling out and I cannot believe any financial help from UK gov will have covered set up costs let alone made a profit for those involved. This is a patently good thing in my view and to have it in place can only be of benefit to the industry as a whole.
I regularly have people offer to come to work for me for nowt for the learning experience and invariably I turn them down as anything that inconveniences me or slows me down at key points can cost big time in the future. I sometimes let them know this and offer to let them come and work like a dog for a few days for a reasonable fee of £250/day if they're really keen.

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## The Drone Ranger

Morrisons Supermarket ran one of the biggest apprenticeship schemes just lately
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17584151
Someone working on their fish counter would suddenly become an apprentice and Morrisons would benefit
So SBC has a point (if that's what is happening in this case)

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## gavin

> It obviously not clear since Gavin thinks they will be immediately self employed and others think they'll be retained on a wage.


No, I said presumably that is the career path.  Perhaps I should have said the ideal career path, and I didn't specify whether or not they may get experience elsewhere first.




> So in the case of British honey producers , Rebecca's father was paid  for the trouble of employing someone(that he already did) who didn't  need the training in the first place. If you add to that the fact that  she was her father's accountant before she started the scheme(I believe)
> At the very least, this is a questionable and not very auspicious start.


According to the information on the BFA website, which you appear not to have read, the host *pays* the apprentice.

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## SDM

> The NZ milk industry has a proud history of providing a route in for new blood and succession for the old through a milk share scheme during handover.  I can envisage something similar for retiring beefarmers who don't have interested family, a crop share during the handover year/years. Maybe something useful the bfa could do would be to facilitate a bridging loan or insurance in case of crop failure during this time.


Agreed, but that doesn't seem to be their aim not according to their own blurb at least.
And surely the loan would also need to cover setting up 200 bives and all the things you'd need plus of course your first year wages.. That's a massive debt for  a Beekeeping startup.

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## SDM

> No, I said presumably that is the career path.  Perhaps I should have said the ideal career path, and I didn't specify whether or not they may get experience elsewhere first.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the information on the BFA website, which you appear not to have read, the host *pays* the apprentice.


Now look up grants for training providers and employers of apprentices. I did read it and more.
My point exactly, there is no mention of what happens after they qualify, but since wages would be low and self employment extremely difficult for all the reasons mentioned.
Perhaps they'll all be recruited as bee inspectors, the thing is nobody seems to know.

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## SDM

> Morrisons Supermarket ran one of the biggest apprenticeship schemes just lately
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17584151
> Someone working on their fish counter would suddenly become an apprentice and Morrisons would benefit
> So SBC has a point (if that's what is happening in this case)


That's exactly the sort of thing that happens. The grant system covers 75% of wage and training. Which leaves the employed paying just 25% of the(what, £100/wk) cost. Of course they can add to it and I'm sure he did in his daughters case.

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## gavin

> Now look up grants for training providers and employers of apprentices. I did read it and more.
> My point exactly, there is no mention of what happens after they qualify, but since wages would be low and self employment extremely difficult for all the reasons mentioned.
> Perhaps they'll all be recruited as bee inspectors, the thing is nobody seems to know.


Do you mean grants in general - anywhere on the WWW - or do you mean at the BFA site?  All I see on the BFA site is this, which is far from the impression your post gives:

*Finance
*
_Apprentices are paid directly by their employer (host trainer).  While the Bee Farmers’ Association asks employers to pay a base rate  which values the apprentice’s contribution to the business, employers  may, and often do, pay above this rate. The training element of the  scheme is financed by commercial sponsors Rowse Honey. Other sponsors  provide practical benefits – for example BJ Sherriff have provided bee  suits. Apprentices are provided with a rail travel card free of charge  for the duration of their programme.
_
No, wait a minute, you do mean the Marshalls:




> That's exactly the sort of thing that happens. The  grant system covers 75% of wage and training. Which leaves the employed  paying just 25% of the(what, £100/wk) cost. Of course they can add to it  and I'm sure he did in his daughters case.


So you don't know them, never met them, yet you are assuming and implying that they are somehow sponging off government hand-outs (apparently on offer to folk entering family businesses?) ?

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## SDM

And you assume theyre not. What we do know is the girl was an experienced queen breeder for one of the most respected importers and as such needed no training after a lifetime on the job. We also know she is not new blood to the industry which is the aim of the scheme. Surely that is exactly what I called it, "questionable".
I did say" Govt. Grants "
Try this
https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...o-24-year-olds

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## The Drone Ranger

SDM you seem to have a few bees your beekeeping bonnet
Relax take a step back
You will get more from the forum that way
IMHO as they say on the beekeeping forum
Have you checked them out ?
They like a bit of argy bargy  :Smile:

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## Black Comb

Some more info. on this topic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/j...tish-bees.html

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## SDM

Thanks for that but after the 2nd time they wrote" their are no wild bees left" I had to walk away and come back to read it again.
While looking for an out apiary recently, I was attacked by an old woman convinced I was a burglar because of my ridiculous excuse of keeping bees, since all the bees are dead. I returned later with 3 in a jar and left them and a note for her.
I personally know of 4 feral colonies less than a mile from my home one of them at least a decade old. Sure every feral swarm I took this year had massive Varroa burdens, but reports of their demise are rather exaggerated. I'd complain about it if it hadn't been part of changing peoples attitudes to having hives on their property. A question that a few years ago got a blank look and a straight "No!" nowgets a much more considerate reply.
The girl in the article , I feel is a much better example of what I thought the scheme was for.

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## The Drone Ranger

Feral an unmanaged honey bees might have been a reservoir of AFB EFB etc
Having less of them might be a good thing  (like having less feral cats)

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## Black Comb

The thing that caught my attention was when she said shortly bees in the UK will rely only on bee farmers for their survival (or words to that effect). 
I seem remember reading somewhere that 70% of the colonies in the UK are owned by amateurs. 
Not much confidence in us then in the BFA world.

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## SDM

No offence intended to anyone here(.myself included) but I'd really rather not see the future of another species in our(human) hands.

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## SDM

> Feral an unmanaged honey bees might have been a reservoir of AFB EFB etc
> Having less of them might be a good thing  (like having less feral cats)


True, but suggesting the eradication of a feral bees is a "good thing"  because they might have diseases we gave them, is a long shot.
Similarly, comparing abandoned domesticated cats that we failed to care for to the indigenous wild honey bee population is a stretch.
It comes back to....
Good for beekeepers, bad for bees.
I guess I just prefer my selection "au natural"

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## The Drone Ranger

Your managing your bees though SDM not just leaving them to it

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## SDM

Of course , but always keeping in mind some of the best advice I've had, which was * leave them to it"
As much as possible.
Do you have "that" type of beekeeper here ?

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## The Drone Ranger

Dont know SDM

I use`smith hives and keep a close eye on things myself
Let alone beekeeping is not something that interests me 
http://www.biobees.com/forum/
There might be some people on the biobees forum who don't manage their hives and just let them get on with it
Not sure

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## SDM

That's really not my thing(despite me keeping a couple of non productive hives going)
I could understand it if they didn't all live in denial about the need to take care of their bees.
Sadly Beekeepings  loony left are a death sentence for their bees.

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## prakel

> Of course , but always keeping in mind some of the best advice I've had, which was * leave them to it"
> As much as possible.
> Do you have "that" type of beekeeper here ?


Wouldn't be a very engrousing hobby if we just left the bees alone. Would it?

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## SDM

I cant imagine there would be much need for a forum to discuss their care either.
So to put the advice into context, it was given after I got my first colony and under management wasn't the issue. Getting me to stop inspecting them daily was problem (still is).
When I check the ones I took to the heather for the first time on Saturday, these last 7 days will be the longest they've been left in peace.
I really need to get an observation hive so I can get my "fix" without bothering them.

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## prakel

> I cant imagine there would be much need for a forum to discuss their care either.
> So to put the advice into context, it was given after I got my first colony and under management wasn't the issue. Getting me to stop inspecting them daily was problem


Yeah, I knew the context of the advice. But, there are those who relish having bees and then forgetting about them. I remember a man with a handful of wbcs, in the same village when I was growing up, he was very open about the fact that he'd not looked at his bees in years but couldn't be persuaded to part with them -no matter how hard I tried.

As for the idea that there would be no need for bee forums; don't you believe it. We've already got the evidence to disprove _that_ theory.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi prakel
I followed your lead and did a few more grafts more by way of experiment so thanks for that (if it works lol!)

On the subject of forums I stumbled across this link
http://www.honeybeehive.co.uk/contact/beekeeping-forum/

Its a list of bee forums with comments 
Quite reassuring

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## prakel

> Hi prakel I followed your lead


That's you doomed  :Wink:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Of course , but always keeping in mind some of the best advice I've had, which was * leave them to it"
> As much as possible.
> Do you have "that" type of beekeeper here ?


Yes, lots.  I think they're beekeepers who are aware of their bees' needs and are cautious to avoid unnecessary upheaval.  I think that is what your adviser meant.
Kitta

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## mbc

> Yes, lots.  I think they're beekeepers who are aware of their bees' needs and are cautious to avoid unnecessary upheaval.  I think that is what your adviser meant.
> Kitta


Count me in that group, if I open a hive unnecessarily then it's a fail in my book. Bar a few critical interventions and expanding and contracting their space, bees do much better if left alone imho.

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## The Drone Ranger

> That's you doomed


Now you tell me Lol!

this is what the forum review says :-

"I quite like the SBAI Forum, its friendly and there seems to be a lot of good advice offered on there, so its well worth a look. Im pretty sure that the S in SBA is Scottish, but there are members from all over the UK. Worth a look at their queen rearing section."

That's all good some others didn't fare so well

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## SDM

> Yes, lots.  I think they're beekeepers who are aware of their bees' needs and are cautious to avoid unnecessary upheaval.  I think that is what your adviser meant.
> Kitta


I've a position for a full time interpreter, you're getting good at it.
I've just seen an article in the daily post a out queen bee thefts in Conway.
One chap having lost 4 out of 6 of his queens, apparently the thieves had put bait hives in the fields nearby. Perhaps if he hadn't let 4 out of 6 hives swarm he'd still have them.
Much as putting bait bives near someone's apiary is" not the done thing" neither is allowing them to swarm. I'm surprised at his local association taking the story to the national (welsh at least) press.
It's on the topic of swarming I guess that " let them be"  should include " once you understand the timetable your bees are working to"

----------


## busybeephilip

[QUOTE=SDM;31491
One chap having lost 4 out of 6 of his queens, apparently the thieves had put bait hives in the fields nearby. Perhaps if he hadn't let 4 out of 6 hives swarm he'd still have them.
Much as putting bait bives near someone's apiary is" not the done thing" neither is allowing them to swarm."[/QUOTE]


I think there would be an argument against calling these persons thieves even though I would disagree with the practice as clearly in this case the beekeeper was negligent in preventing his bees from swarming and the owner of the bait hives may have been simply trying to catch stray swarms.

I suppose legally a swarm of bees belongs to no one unless it is being followed by the beekeeper who can ID it as his.  Also, if it lands on someones property they legally become the owner as the bees have no intention of returning to their hive and the beekeeper must gain permission to enter the property and to remove said bees only if the property owner does not want them.

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## Jon

I agree. If you don't do adequate swarm control you have only yourself to blame if your bees end up in another beekeeper's hive.
Setting bait boxes beside another beekeeper's apiary is a good way to make yourself extremely unpopular though.
I would say the bait boxes would disappear pretty quickly as soon as they were noticed.

----------


## busybeephilip

> I would say the bait boxes would disappear pretty quickly as soon as they were noticed.


Here Here, but that would be trespass and theiving

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## Jon

I have heard of people just blocking them up every morning until the owner takes them away.

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## SDM

> I think there would be an argument against calling these persons thieves even though I would disagree with the practice as clearly in this case the beekeeper was negligent in preventing his bees from swarming and the owner of the bait hives may have been simply trying to catch stray swarms.
> 
> I suppose legally a swarm of bees belongs to no one unless it is being followed by the beekeeper who can ID it as his.  Also, if it lands on someones property they legally become the owner as the bees have no intention of returning to their hive and the beekeeper must gain permission to enter the property and to remove said bees only if the property owner does not want them.


Not quite right, you only own them when you out them in a box
Think what that would mean for out apiaries .

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## SDM

> I have heard of people just blocking them up every morning until the owner takes them away.


And that would be criminal damage.
OK  bad beekeepers happen,but its Conway Beekeepers calling them thieves and backing their member. I'm just amazed they're not embarrassed by this. If 2/3 rds of my hives swarm next year, I won't be calling the national press.

----------


## Jon

I don't think it would be criminal damage given that there is no damage, criminal or otherwise taking place.
If 2/3 of your hives swarm next year or any year you need to go back to basics re swarm control.

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## prakel

> If 2/3 of your hives swarm next year or any year you need to go back to basics re swarm control.


Or contact Rebecca Marshall and her dad, if not already using their stock. I understand they have some very low swarming bees.

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## SDM

> I don't think it would be criminal damage given that there is no damage, criminal or otherwise taking place.
> If 2/3 of your hives swarm next year or any year you need to go back to basics re swarm control.


One of my many hats was a policeman's. It's criminal damage if you restrict the use . covering the hole would render it useless. Trust me , I've collared people for less.
It's no great claim in hive numbers or number of seasons, but I've not had a swarm(from my own bives) yet

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Not quite right, you only own them when you out them in a box
> Think what that would mean for out apiaries .


 My ability to interpret your sentences is failing me now.  How do you out bees on a box?
Kitta

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## SDM

> My ability to interpret your sentences is failing me now.  How do you out bees on a box?
> Kitta


" put" them " in" a box.

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## SDM

> Or contact Rebecca Marshall and her dad, if not already using their stock. I understand they have some very low swarming bees.


Since " their" stock comes primarily from Buckfast Denmark.  I can confirm that from 11 Colonies I had zero attempted swarms this year(2014 queens)

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## prakel

> Since " their" stock comes primarily from Buckfast Denmark.  I can confirm that from 11 Colonies I had zero attempted swarms this year(2014 queens)


So are you saying that you're using Brandstrup queens too or just confirming (from hearsay) that that's the reason the Marshall stock have low swarming proclivities?

-----------------------
Also, I'd actually hope that good 2014 stock wouldn't be pushing to swarm in 2015 -at least, based on the mongrel queens which I select for myself. So I doubt that's anything to judge longterm traits on.

edit: looks like _these_ queens did swarm in 2015!




> My swarm season was busy ! I wanted to make increase this year so spoke to a couple of pest controllers and after loosing drone layers and merging ones known to be from the same source I gained 11 colonies, 4 of which seem unlikely to ever fill a brood box, one won't fill a nuc.

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## Jon

> . covering the hole would render it useless. Trust me , I've collared people for less.


Curious - when one of the regular complaints on the online forums is that you can't get the police to take the theft of bee hives seriously.
Yet a copper would be prepared to arrest someone for plugging a bait hive with grass, which is set out with the intent to capture someone else s bees.

Collared people for less. LOL.

----------


## Black Comb

Looks like the thieving is more serious in Anglesey.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ee-queens.html

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Also, I'd actually hope that good 2014 stock wouldn't be pushing to swarm in 2015 -at least, based on the mongrel queens which I select for myself.


I have had a strange season with more swarming and attempted swarming than normal
Partly my own fault putting on Snelgrove boards too late then relying on them 
(Although Nemphlar was saying he had his on early and that wasn't much better)
Of the queens that were produced above the boards some didn't get back and some who did have poor laying patterns
Yet other things like two circle splits with grafted cells introduced all went to plan  (timing??)
I am feeding the bees now which is mostly my own fault for having too many in this one spot

The mother queens I grafted from this year are ones where swarm preparations were fairly easily avoided, so that might help for next year 
I hate climbing ladders into trees (I might ask the police to hold the ladder next year)   :Smile: 

Good luck to the queen breeders who rely on that for an income no wonder they use Instrumental Insemination

----------


## busybeephilip

> Not quite right, you only own them when you out (put) them in a box
> Think what that would mean for out apiaries .


Yes, but putting them in a box is very different from bees going into a box on their own free will

going into a box is technically the same as a swarm landing on someones property, so if they go into a box belonging to someone else they become their property.  Of course who ever owns the land the box is on will have given permission for the box to be placed on their land or else it would be like your neighbour putting a bait hive in your garden to catch your bees ?

In an out apairy, one should have permission of the land owner or be the owner of the land to place your boxes that you have put bees into, this is a very different situation

Bottom line is there is nothing wrong with putting up a bait box next door to an apairy if permission of the landowner is given or if you own the land.

This case simply boils down to the lack of swarm control in said bees and a beekeeper who is annoyed at his own incompetence.  He obviously has not even bothered to clip queens?   The beekeeper placing the bait hives might even have done him a favour by catching , now regarded as feral,  swarms which might otherwise go down chimneys or other unwanted places causing bad publicity for beekeeping and making the beekeeper liable for swarm removal expenses if he were to claim them as his ??? which I would bet there would be no claim  :Smile: 

The morality of placing bait boxes next to apiaries by other beeks is a different issue and simply does not promote friendship within our hobby.

But if the boxes were placed with the intention of returning the caught swarms to the beekeeper as a favour to beekeeping then thats different again

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Yes, but putting them in a box is very different from bees going into a box on their own free will


I'd like to hypnotise them into the box

1,2,3 a......nnd your back in the hive

----------


## Bumble

> One of my many hats was a policeman's. It's criminal damage if you restrict the use . covering the hole would render it useless. Trust me , I've collared people for less.


Strange, because the only real issue would be whether the hole-blocker has the right to be on the land and round here that's a civil offence of trespass. Even if somebody's wandering round a garden unannounced the police aren't interested, and if they were it would take them days to arrive. In that time any grass blocking an entrance to a bait hive would have dried out, leaving access open to any bees that found it.

I'm quite glad I don't live in an odd-numbered house in Leicestershire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-33788264

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Bumble 
I would have the insurance companies legally obliged to pay a reward of 30% of the value of recovered goods to the police
That would save them standing around in the cold and hiding in bus shelters with speed guns
They could just write up the details of a burglary in a warm living room then nip off to see where the goods were being fenced

----------


## busybeephilip

Just tell them here that there is a masked man with something in his hand and the whole area will be cordoned off for a day or more within a matter of minutes.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Just tell them here that there is a masked man with something in his hand and the whole area will be cordoned off for a day or more within a matter of minutes.


A few years back a farmer who had huntington's chorea shot himself 
He was found with the shotgun beside him and the family knew right away what had happened
 A 999 call meant an ambulance was sent and the police were called out to get the details
After they got there a response team of armed police helpfully arrived and surrounded the place ???

----------


## SDM

> Curious - when one of the regular complaints on the online forums is that you can't get the police to take the theft of bee hives seriously.
> Yet a copper would be prepared to arrest someone for plugging a bait hive with grass, which is set out with the intent to capture someone else s bees.
> 
> Collared people for less. LOL.


Generally speaking, I arrested people for whatever I could catch them for.
If your asking would I have investigated someone  doing that, then of course, no.
But had I been a beekeeper back then I'd have let him know it isn't theft and  then " ripped him a new one" over his Responsibility's.
Personally, I think he should be liable for any costs incurred for removing his errant swarms from other people's property.

----------


## SDM

> So are you saying that you're using Brandstrup queens too or just confirming (from hearsay) that that's the reason the Marshall stock have low swarming proclivities?
> 
> -----------------------
> Also, I'd actually hope that good 2014 stock wouldn't be pushing to swarm in 2015 -at least, based on the mongrel queens which I select for myself. So I doubt that's anything to judge longterm traits on.
> 
> edit: looks like _these_ queens did swarm in 2015!



Yes I use, Buckfast Denmark breeder queens, but since I requeen annually that's as long term as I need.
You have too much spare time if you're reading through my posts and thinking swarms I collected were my colonies.

----------


## SDM

> Strange, because the only real issue would be whether the hole-blocker has the right to be on the land and round here that's a civil offence of trespass. Even if somebody's wandering round a garden unannounced the police aren't interested, and if they were it would take them days to arrive. In that time any grass blocking an entrance to a bait hive would have dried out, leaving access open to any bees that found it.
> 
> I'm quite glad I don't live in an odd-numbered house in Leicestershire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-33788264


There's no such thing as a civil offence of trespass in the UK. It's either criminal or tort depending on if its trespass of person,property of land.. However it's an odd bit of.law since you can't be arrested for trespass. The" civil"(tort) aspect you refer to, is the process for compensation.
Or at least that's how it was from 67'-05', when " because I said so" became arrestable.

----------


## prakel

> Yes I use, Buckfast Denmark breeder queens, but since I requeen annually that's as long term as I need.


Thank you. Now we're getting to the heart of this this thread. 




> You have too much spare time if you're reading through my posts and thinking swarms I collected were my colonies.


I've always possessed exceptional time management skills, so no, I haven't got too much spare time at all -just as much as I need. 

As for reading through your old posts, I didn't need to because I knew exactly where that one was. Now, you can't blame me for being confused when you post here saying that you've got up to 11 colonies as a result of catching swarms this year and then a few day's later claim that non of your 11 colonies swarmed this year.

Investing in Buckfast Denmark breeders would be a comendable approach if it wasn't for the fact that you're planning to seed the local woods with rough swarms next year. Or maybe you don't actually live near there yourself?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

http://www.britishhoneyproducersltd.com/index.html
Had a search on the web to see who the thread was about

Buckfast have a strong following I haven't had any experience of them, other than one friend who drove all the way to the Borders to get two colonies.
He made his own Nationals from exterior ply don't know how much the bees were but even 10 years ago probably not cheap
I was surprised to see that queens now cost £40 plus postage though
There must be a strong demand for that to be the price ?
That's not a criticism good luck to them I say 
They might be really good honey gatherers but you still need a nectar source  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

and the weather

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## busybeephilip

Jon, Looks like we are in for a few good days

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## Jon

Looks like it. The apidea frames were dripping with fresh nectar today.

----------


## SDM

> [
> 
> I was surprised to see that queens now cost £40 plus postage though
> There must be a strong demand for that to be the price ?
> That's not a criticism good luck to them I say 
> They might be really good honey gatherers but you still need a nectar source


Try £110 for an open(island) mated Buckfast Denmark queen !!
Are they worth it ? Honestly, I don't have enough experience with others to say. But if the 3 I bought last year are still going next year then I'll consider it a yes.
It seems given my location, I've got drone flooding fairly well tied down. The cast dark bee swarms that mated at my home apiary are all producing Buckfast lookalikes now. Next year I'll have an apiary just for the dark ones.
4 of early July's queens have superseded here(too cold and windy) the next batch have been slow to lay so I've not got high hopes for them either. so I'll try one last graft today.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I am so out of touch SDM
I miss the days of John Furzy 
Selling good honey getters for £10 in the SBA magazine
Hope I have spelled his name right
In some old books you sometimes see proven/non proven queens were sold at different prices
Their version of proven was taken from a full size hive where they were laying a lot and probably overwintered
The unproven queens were just mated and laying
Modern methods seem to produce very reliable results after monitoring laying in a small Nuc for a month
I noticed that there is a buckfast breeders website as well when I was looking for Pete Little's site

----------


## SDM

> Looks like the thieving is more serious in Anglesey.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ee-queens.html


The bee inspector passed my friends name onto this lady as he breeds his queens on my land(very handy). After a bit of questioning it seems she "thought" they had been stolen as she thought 1 of the frames was different in a hive. Having spoken to several other people it seems a rather embarrassed lady doesn't think they were stolen now.

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## Jon

Stories about queens being stolen do the rounds every year. I have my doubts. Queens go missing for a variety of reasons. Leaving in a swarm should be fairly obvious but queens can also just disappear. Sometimes it is operator error when a queen gets killed during a colony inspection. 
I treated about a dozen colonies with MAQS last August and this caused several queens to disappear and several more to get superseded.

----------


## prakel

> I have my doubts. Queens go missing for a variety of reasons. Leaving in a swarm should be fairly obvious but queens can also just disappear. Sometimes it is operator error when a queen gets killed during a colony inspection.


Just that. Hive thefts are one thing, but queen rustling? 

As for operator error, I bet that more queens are lost to careless use of hoffman shoulders than just about anything else.

----------


## Jon

> Just that. Hive thefts are one thing, but queen rustling? 
> 
> As for operator error, I bet that more queens are lost to careless use of hoffman shoulders than just about anything else.


I always try and teach the beginners to find the queen first and make sure she is in the centre of a frame before pushing frames tight together. Trouble is a lot of beekeepers have difficulty finding queens.

Another issue I have noticed is beekeepers obsessed with scraping off brace comb every inspection from the inside side walls of the brood box and the top and bottom of frames. If you don't know where your queen is you should not be scraping anything with the hive tool until you find her.

If you can never find the queen and you do weekly brood box inspections you are playing Russian Roulette.

----------


## gavin

All good comments, but queen rustling does take place.  A very observant beekeeper I used to know well had batches of queens disappear from time to time and he noticed signs of an intruder in the apiary.  Also C4U had someone steal the central frames of some stocks last year or perhaps the year before - not in every case with the queen.

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## prakel

> All good comments, but queen rustling does take place.  A very observant beekeeping I used to know well had batches of queens disappear from time to time and he noticed signs of an intruder in the apiary.  Also C4U had someone steal the central frames of some stocks last year or perhaps the year before - not in every case with the queen.


Interesting stuff. Must be some seriously hardened crims in your part of the world -even taking the middle frames without bothering to find the queen would in my oppinion fall into the same realm as hive theft -quick(ish), but searching for queens has got to be at the high end of the game; the sort of person who'd take the time to do that probably isn't the sort of person you'd want to catch in the act.

----------


## gavin

Most years there is some report of theft in Scotland somewhere, but one a year would be about all that reaches my ears.  The queen thefts were quite far from here.  The victim suspected a local beekeeper but when I was last in touch didn't have the proof.  Whether or not you want to catch the person in the act depends upon the opinion and the relative sizes and strengths of beekeeper and thief I suppose.

----------


## prakel

> Whether or not you want to catch the person in the act depends upon the opinion and the relative sizes and strengths of beekeeper and thief I suppose.


Mindset makes the ultimate difference irrespective of size or strength. Sorry to say but a lot of people who think that they could deal with a full on assault fail to do so if it actually happens simply because they don't possess the ability to switch from nice person to animal. Of those that do come out on top, there are usually some nasty injuries and scars to deal with afterwards.  

I reckon that someone who cares so little for their own freedom that they'd hang around looking for queens when there are quicker ways to the accomplish their nefarious desires has probably already got an edge on most people.

But this is of course nothing more than speculation.

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## The Drone Ranger

when I removed my badly mated queen and replaced her with one from a keiler (vid)
I put her in the keiler as a delaying tactic because she was laying 
Checked today but she is gone they have a queen cell
If you think someone might pinch your queen dont mark them 
Mark a few bees instead 
I did this once when I knocked the bottle of marking fluid into the hive
Perhaps that was serendipity  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

[QUOTE=prakel;31581

But this is of course nothing more than speculation.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps they were beamed aboard the mother ship and had probes inser.............
Oh no that's II 
I knew I had read that somewhere 
 :Smile:

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## Calluna4u

> Just that. Hive thefts are one thing, but queen rustling? 
> 
> As for operator error, I bet that more queens are lost to careless use of hoffman shoulders than just about anything else.


It happens. One season we turned up to do a group of hives near Blairgowrie. It was a large group placed there for the raspberries.

The first 24 hives were all bee depleted and queenless and the boxes had been put back on less than neatly. EQC's everywhere. The remaining 12 colonies at the far end of the group were completely normal. Someone wanted some queenright shook swarms.

Just this week one of my hives in Aberdeenshire was found open, and the middle combs from the broodnest were gone, inc a queen. Nice 6 bar nuc for someone. List of suspects might be shortish as they were Langstroths.

A few years ago, at the time we contracted a fresh case of AFB near Winchburgh, while the site was on standstill, someone stole bees and equipment from the site. Very dodgy.

This year again up north we discovered an array of the mankiest home made bait hives imagineable, with utterly dreadful ancient comb in them, placed covertly in the area around a couple of our apiaries. Looked like the work of more than one person as there were two distinct styles. 

One year we put the clearer boards on a large group of hives near Ballater on a Friday. Came back on Monday morning and the honey crop was gone. They had even taken the cover boards and just placed the roof back down on top of the clearing boards. Estimate they got away with over a tonne. A vehicle was spotted at the same time near someone elses bees and a person interfering with the local keepers hives. The police traced the man down.

We get very minor theft almost every year, often just someone steals a comb of honey from the top super, but bee theft is becoming more common.

On the other side, I DID get the very kind offer of 42 hives from a couple of 'travelling people'. They had found someone's bees in a wood and were touting around for a client and then would steal to order. 

Queen theft is not unknown too, we have gone into sites where we have been introducing queens and find hives disturbed and the queen cages missing. How on earth did they know to go THERE????

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## prakel

> The bee inspector passed my friends name onto this lady as he breeds his queens on my land(very handy). After a bit of questioning it seems she "thought" they had been stolen as she thought 1 of the frames was different in a hive. Having spoken to several other people it seems a rather embarrassed lady doesn't think they were stolen now.


She's now posted on the bkf to confirm that the queens and a colony were stolen from her garden. So there it is...

----------


## prakel

> The first 24 hives were all bee depleted and queenless and the boxes had been put back on less than neatly. EQC's everywhere. The remaining 12 colonies at the far end of the group were completely normal. Someone wanted some queenright shook swarms


That's something which I can 'understand' as there's a feeling of speed to it and there's not such a disproportionate value - to - risk balance as there is in the act of searching out individual free running queens. 

We ourselves had plenty of experience of bee theft a few years ago, we even had the military police incorporate one of our apiaries which was located on one of their ranges into their regular 'round' because word had reached them that the colonies were being targeted; apparently a chap who lived 20 miles from that site was 'suspected' to be behind a series of thefts over a period of years but had never been caught. 

Only this summer I've lost three 13 frame bs brood bodies which were stacked at a site ready to be used. Very much doubt the thief actually noticed that they were rectangular. Unless s/he collects antique bee gear.

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## The Drone Ranger

Did that farmer get off plugging the pikey or was he sent down ?
seems to me nothings safe now

I've had my head in the sand (well mud round here)

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## SDM

I thought it was confined to the OSR areas, where bives are often found conveniently ready to go stacked on the trailers they were brought on.
Checked some very slow to mate mating nucs yesterday and 3 out of 4 were queenlessness, that's lousy odds on loosing them to mating flights, but I'm pretty sure the culprit is the 3 families of swallows that nested in the barn, I'm going to have to discourage them next year.The only saving grace is that they were probably duds anyway (like most of mine this year)

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## alancooper

> I'm going to have to discourage them next year.


Would that be "discourage" as in destroy? - or discourage as in greater barn biosecurity?

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## SDM

I leave the doors open for them usually, but they access through the vents if the doors are closed, so I'm afraid I'll have to put mesh up on the vents this winter.
I love having them there but they are definitely targeting the bees

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## The Drone Ranger

> I leave the doors open for them usually, but they access through the vents if the doors are closed, so I'm afraid I'll have to put mesh up on the vents this winter.
> I love having them there but they are definitely targeting the bees


I have a couple of swallow families every year 
This year has been poor on the lost queen and mating fronts
I'm not sure they have much to do with it although they might get some bees along with all their other insects

RSPB say
"_Parent swallows feed a wide variety of insects to their nestlings — including wasps. Flies are certainly favourites, particularly for first broods. Eight out of every 10 insects eaten are flies. Surprisingly, most are large including greenbottles, bluebottles and horseflies._"

So lets bump up the availability of flies and hope they take out a few wasps as well  :Smile:

----------


## prakel

> RSPB say
> "_Parent swallows feed a wide variety of insects to their nestlings — including wasps. Flies are certainly favourites, particularly for first broods. Eight out of every 10 insects eaten are flies. Surprisingly, most are large including greenbottles, bluebottles and horseflies._"


In normal circumstances this is no doubt correct but I wonder whether they've observed swallows living next to a fast-queen take away? I've noticed that they definitely seem to concentrate efforts around our mating hives mid morning and again during the afternoon. We also seem to have higher losses from those boxes than ones on a site about a mile away. Just got to grow a few extra queens to balance things out  :Smile: .

----------


## SDM

> In normal circumstances this is no doubt correct but I wonder whether they've observed swallows living next to a fast-queen take away? I've noticed that they definitely seem to concentrate efforts around our mating hives mid morning and again during the afternoon. We also seem to have higher losses from those boxes than ones on a site about a mile away. Just got to grow a few extra queens to balance things out .


I think we may just have agreed on something !! I get the same timings too.
They definitely run lines up and down my hives and circles around the mating nucs. Sadly this year I didnt have the option of using another site.

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## The Drone Ranger

I'll have to pin up notice next to the nest warning them about anti social activities  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

> I've noticed that they definitely seem to concentrate efforts around our mating hives mid morning and again during the afternoon. We also seem to have higher losses from those boxes than ones on a site about a mile away. Just got to grow a few extra queens to balance things out .


Do these boxes have a lot of drone activity?  With their clumsy flight and juicy chunkiness (and lack of a sting) I'd have thought they'd be the prime targets.

----------


## prakel

> Do these boxes have a lot of drone activity?  With their clumsy flight and juicy chunkiness (and lack of a sting) I'd have thought they'd be the prime targets.


It's a good thought but no, mainly mating hives (and none of that behaviour which might suggest the existence of AVM). I'm sure that it's simply serendipity. Bees and swifts living next to each other.

edit: swallows...

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I was worried when the neonic ban went on because the farmers might have had to spray more 
On here though there are folk experiencing all the same problems who don't have any oil seed rape around
Then I thought was it apistan, which I used for the first time in years this Winter past, for the overwinter nucs
But its most likely the weather and the lack of understanding / attention to feeding up for drone production 
Has anyone any comments on the  Neopol or the other pollen one Candypolline?
Are they needed / beneficial ?

----------


## alancooper

> I get the same timings too.They definitely run lines up and down my hives and circles around the mating nucs. Sadly this year I didnt have the option of using another site.


Good to know that 8 out of 10 insects eaten by swallows are flies and that the other 2 are not necessarily bees. Also - the usual shelter and aspect that we all try to give our apiaries encourages all sorts of insect concentrations. It is not just bees that prefer such warm sheltered areas. Casual observation shows blue-bottles for example, sunning themselves on my hive landing boards - it is hardly surprising that swallows have lunch here. We should not assume that they are after queens. It is easy to make spurious correlations based on a correlation between two variables.

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## The Drone Ranger

I might have drawn them off by doing a bit of mowing of the grass
Stopped when rain started and the buzzards started circling 🐒

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## SDM

> Good to know that 8 out of 10 insects eaten by swallows are flies and that the other 2 are not necessarily bees. Also - the usual shelter and aspect that we all try to give our apiaries encourages all sorts of insect concentrations. It is not just bees that prefer such warm sheltered areas. Casual observation shows blue-bottles for example, sunning themselves on my hive landing boards - it is hardly surprising that swallows have lunch here. We should not assume that they are after queens. It is easy to make spurious correlations based on a correlation between two variables.


I believe they specialise in drones and queens as they prefer larger insects and mating altitude suits swallows preference too. They also have a soft pallet and wouldn't want the workers stinging away.
Beautiful for sure, I watched an amazing chase the other day with a dragon fly that seemed to be the same size as the swallow.

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## SDM

I'm glad my bees were in bed yesterday evening as I was treated to a show by thousands of swallows over my place.
It's a hell of a sight, but left me worried for my girls for sure.

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