# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Api Life Var vs Apiguard vs (insert favourite non Pyrethoid Varroa Treatment)

## Neils

I've used Apiguard for the past couple of years because that was pretty much what i was told to use when I started but was starting to dig around a little bit more in terms of whether it was necessary the best and/or most effective treatment to use.  So just interested in what people use as their Varroa treatment of choice.  

This is the first year that we're starting to see colonies with DWV in the apiaries. My suspicion is that this is probably more a result of not treating with OA over winter on the basis of pre-winter mite counts looking low so I'm starting to rethink my strategy a bit and as part of that figured I'd ask around a little mre with regards to what people are currently using as an autumn/spring treatment and how they feel it compares to what they might have used before..

In terms of efficacy I'm satisfied with Apiguard but never one to sit on my backside when I could be questioning something and after 3 years use I'm open to the idea that maybe there's something else out there that might deliver similar (or better) results.

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## Karin

I make those thymol oil soaked pieces of oasis (like one of the super beeks recommends) in Autumn.  Cheap. Not too difficult if you get a accurate balance and a syringe to measure the liquid.

I put thymol in the Autumn feed too.

I treat with OA in dec/jan

I do brood culling sometimes too.

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## Neils

I've got a full IPM programme which I keep promising to write up and stick up here for people to pull apart, in the context of the thread I was interested specifically in what people currently use as their autumn (and spring?) treatment.

Is the thymol you add to the pads "home cooked" or do you buy it premixed? And what strength do you use in the autumn feed?

I haven't fed mine for autumn since I switched to 14x12s, part of the rationale was that they'd have enough honey after I'd taken the supers not to need feeding.

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## Jimbo

After taking off the supers. I do this early Sept which is later than most people as we tend to get late flows from Balsam etc. In fact I have taken off honey at the start of Sept and put the supers on again to get cleaned to find the bees fill them again on good years. This means for varroa control  we start late. I usually use apistan as we do not have resistant varroa at the moment although we will be checking for resistance this year. I tried Apiguard last year on colonies in August that did not have supers but found it was not used up due to lower temperatures we have up here. I always use oxalic acid later in the year when there is no brood regardless to what I use in the Autumn. In our association we all treat with oxalic acid within a two week period.

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## Jon

Apiguard in september and Oxalic in December is my routine. I uncap some drone brood as well but rarely see more than one or two mites.
I put in the trays below the open mesh floors every now and again and monitor the mite drop but rarely see much until late summer.
I keep an eye out for bees with deformed wings and bees crawling about but it is better not to let a varroa infestation get that far.
One big variable to keep an eye out for is robbing of a varroa riddled colony. You can have your varroa levels under control and then your strong colony robs out a dying colony with 3000 mites in it and takes them all back home.

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## Karin

I add 5 ml of emulsified thymol mix below to a gallon of syrup in Autumn

Here is how you make the emulsified thymol (Worth emulsifying it because otherwise it is not evenly disributed in the syrup, but floats on top.) 

*Mix this outside as the thymol vapours take of the linings off your lungs.  Thymol crystals must be handled with caution.*

Heat 30g thymol in 5ml of isopropyl alcohol in an old pan/tin you never want to use again until it dissolves


Separately, in a honey jar resting in a pan of water heat 140ml of boiling water with 1 teaspoon of lecithin.  Stir for 10 mins. sieve to remove any lumps. Add it to the thymol that has dissolved in the alcohol above. Shake. Done. 

(NB this is not the same as what you put on the oasis)

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## Karin

PS: Forgot to say....
as far as what I have read, this thymolised syrup is more effective than Fumidil B in preventing Nosema, but the benefits of it for reducing varroa on its own are less impressive.  You need thymol vapour through Apiguard or the oasis patties or similar to deliver the big drop of varroa in the Autumn, not syrup.

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## Jon

Pete L/Hivemaker should be along in a minute with chapter and verse.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Nellie 
Alan Teale very kindly gave me a recipe for thymol treatment some time ago. I modified it so apologies to Alan if he doesn't agree  :Smile: 
1) buy 500g of thymol put it in a large plastic feeder add 1 ltr that's 2x 500ml bottles of surgical spirit and stir.
2) decant the solution back into the bottles you will need an extra empty bottle because the amount of solution will be around 1.3 ltr
3) go to Lidl buy packs of 5 thin flat washing up sponges and cut each one into 4 pieces
4) put 2 pieces of sponge under the crown board at the back of the hive and using a syringe add 20ml of solution to each sponge.
5) wait around 3 days check varroa drop. If it is high then continue checks till daily drop is slowing at around 2 weeks repeat with another 20ml 
6) the bees buzz a bit but are unharmed don't wait too late before application some bees wont come up to be fed while the treatment is on.
7) hopefully this will get you nice healthy winter bees and if you follow up with evaporated oxalic treatment in the winter no more deformed wings

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## Neils

Thanks DR, very useful.

Have you tried using this method yourself and how do you feel it compares to buying the ready mixed treatments?

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## The Drone Ranger

Nellie 

I have a spreadsheet of all the treatments I used for comparison and I would say in most cases its more effective than the api var , apiguard or exomite 
I will try to figure out how to display the chart here but as it's on my laptop not the web so I haven't been able to do that at the moment.
If I had only a couple of hives I would go with api var because it's the simplest.

try this link to google docs https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...thkey=CN6ehKwM

Te hive numbers are along the top (there is no numbers 1, 17, 18)
The sample date on the left hand side
The varroa count forms the body of the sheet
treatments are colour coded
all hives made it through winter 0 losses

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## Neils

Very interesting.  I don't mind knocking up a chart to put up. You can display that sheet as an image from the link you provided, but I didn't want to edit your post.

Agree that with a few hives it's easier to slap a tray etc of your treatment of choice on than go to extra trouble. I guess in some respects I've spent too much time on a different forum where they cook up all sorts of gubbins and lob that into hives as "treatment" because everything else is buying into the global Bayer conspiracy or something.

As my colonies increase I'm also starting to cast one eye on that big bucket of Apiguard you can get and wondering if there are alternatives generally, hence the original post, it's very easy to do stuff because that's what you've always done and it seems to work without ever wondering if there's a better/more efficient way to do something.

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## Jon

Hi neil
I buy that big bucket every year - 3k
It costs about £85 and will treat about 40 colonies.
the old man and myself generally have 35 + colonies between us in September so we split it between us.

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## Neils

I'm in that in between stage at the moment where buying trays is getting expensive but the bucket doesn't quite make sense yet.

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## The Drone Ranger

Might not be too clear its a screenshot

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## The Drone Ranger

Nellie 
here's a stacked bar graph of the varroa drop the treatments achieved  the legend is a separate jpg the files are very small might not work

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## The Drone Ranger

Screenshot.jpg

hopefully you will be able to make out the effects of 2 cycles of oxalic using the evaporator sold by Thornes

Problem for me is I use Open Office not Microsoft exel , word etc and the permitted file size for attachments is so tight could email them to you Nellie if you want a readable copy--otherwise get the magnifying glass out.

Its fairly clear that Oxalic in winter is the way to go but its best to do some treatment elsewhere in the year to make sur the winter bees are tip top in the first instance.

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## Neils

Cheers for those DR, much appreciated. On a phone at the moment so I'll have another look at them when I get home.

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## The Drone Ranger

Nellie
Just to give the costings of the thymol solution  500g thymol £16-85,  Surgical spirit 500ml costs £2-75 x2 = £5.50  
total £23-35 
That makes up about 1.6ltr
Each hive needs 2 treatments @ 40ml per treatment = 80ml per season
So you have enough to treat 20 hives for £23.35
That's about half the price of the apiguard 
The solution will keep indefinitely in the surgical spirit bottles

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## Neils

Well, we're going to give the DIY thymol recipe a go and see how we get on with it.

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## Neils

All the colonies in one apiary now have the DIY thymol treatment on. I used 40ml on two sponges on the full colonies and 20ml on one sponge in the Nucs. Quite surprised at how much of the smell goes once it's dissolved in the surgical spirit but there was some bearding of bees at the entrances after an hour or so.


I used bog standard washing sponges cut to fit under the crown boards, do I expect any of the sponge to remain when I look next and have some replacements ready or will they leave them alone?

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## The Drone Ranger

> All the colonies in one apiary now have the DIY thymol treatment on. I used 40ml on two sponges on the full colonies and 20ml on one sponge in the Nucs. Quite surprised at how much of the smell goes once it's dissolved in the surgical spirit but there was some bearding of bees at the entrances after an hour or so.
> 
> 
> I used bog standard washing sponges cut to fit under the crown boards, do I expect any of the sponge to remain when I look next and have some replacements ready or will they leave them alone?


The flat ones from Lidl are easier but you will still have sponges (hopefully) in a week or two's time when you put on a second dose of 20ml / sponge
The varroa will be dropping and after a couple of days you can gauge the population by the numbers killed.
If you are feeding make sure they are taking the feed as some bees won't come to a feeder during treatment 
Hope your weather is better than ours at the moment  :Smile:

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## Neils

Marginally better, but I won't be getting the suntan lotion out.  Was tempted to try a feed on the nucs but have previously found that either treat or feed is best approach rather than try both at the same time.

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## Neils

was dodging the rain showers so didn't open up the hives, but there's a good number of mites on all the floors include the swarm I dosed with OA. I managed to get the stuff on my hands and you do end up reeking of thymol for the rest of the day. ho hum.

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## The Drone Ranger

> was dodging the rain showers so didn't open up the hives, but there's a good number of mites on all the floors include the swarm I dosed with OA. I managed to get the stuff on my hands and you do end up reeking of thymol for the rest of the day. ho hum.


Ha!Ha! The good thing is if you are feeding at the same time the bees get trained to associate the smell with good things and become your new best friends.
But a word of warning don't get it in your eyes because it hurts worse than being stung 
Everybody in our house says they smell it strong when I hardly notice it 
Like Henry Cooper with his "splash it all over" the great ??? smell of Brut

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## robin118

Hi D.R is this method temperature dependent ?

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## Jimbo

Hi DR

I like your idea of Thymol and the bees associating it with good things. I am the opposite. Having worked closely with the NHS where Thymol is used as a preservative in 24hr Urine collection bottles you can guess what I associate the smell with.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Robin 
It will work at lower temps than Apiguard Gel but best above 15'C just the same.
That's not a problem at this time of year usually

Jimbo 
Thymol might not be your favorite treatment choice then  :Smile:  
Versatile stuff that thymol could be worse they might have used Brut

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## Neils

Lies I tell you. I used the standard washing sponges with the green scourer top and they were all cleared out when I opened them up yesterday to apply the second round. Getting a good mite drop off them though so I'm happy with the overall efficacy of it so far but it would be safe to say that they appear to like it even less than Apiguard.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Lies I tell you. I used the standard washing sponges with the green scourer top and they were all cleared out when I opened them up yesterday to apply the second round. Getting a good mite drop off them though so I'm happy with the overall efficacy of it so far but it would be safe to say that they appear to like it even less than Apiguard.


Lol !!

Nellie don't be mean pop to the supermarket and get AquaPure Spongemasters or similar from Lidl Aldi or Tesco they are about 8" square and 5mm thick you cut them into 4 
They are sponge cloths not pot scourers 
Still whatever works but you could save some cash if the bees don't eat them every time  :Smile: 

The lowest temp they will work is 12'C

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## Neils

On reflection I'm not sure that having them clear out the sponge is necessarily a bad thing. Part of the blurb about apiguard is that the bees carting it out of the hive aids the distribution of the thymol vapour.

If I'd been more prepared, it might have been useful to compare mite counts between colonies that removed the sponges and those that didn't but in truth the level of detail on the mite drop went as far as "1,2,many, lots!".

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## The Drone Ranger

Nellie you have redefined hygienic bees 
They are the ones who grab the chance to get hive sponged down  :Smile:

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## Neils

I wasn't going to say anything about hygienic bees  :Big Grin:  none of the colonies are otherwise like for like either so even comparing the nucs is probably relatively meaningless in terms of comparing mite counts however you wanted to interpret the results.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I wasn't going to say anything about hygienic bees  none of the colonies are otherwise like for like either so even comparing the nucs is probably relatively meaningless in terms of comparing mite counts however you wanted to interpret the results.


Individual hive counts go up and down but if you use a stacked bar graph of all the hives in the apiary you get a clearer picture

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## Neils

Next year I promise!  My worst varroa affected colony this year also happened to be the one colony that made no effort, whatsoever, to clear out the thymol sponges, they simply propolised them onto the Top Bars.  Anecdotal for sure, but I found the differing treatment of the sponges within the colonies very interesting.

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## kevboab

With the home made sponge recipe. Is it 40 ml regardless of single or double brood boxes. All my colonies are double brood bar one which is box and half.

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## madasafish

I use strings with thymol mix with wax between bars  in my TBHs as it's not possible to apply Apiguard over the bars. 

In my first year with two hives, I had DWV and heavy mite drops.
Last year I had much smaller mite drops: under 50 per hive over 4 weeks.

This year - with the same treatment - a total of 11 mites in 1 week - from 4 hives and 3 nucs.

I have seen drones expelled mid summer - and on examination found to have 1 mite on each.

There have been brood breaks this year due to Q- and abysmal cold and wet weather.

I never use OA...

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## Jon

I am also seeing very low mite drops again this year.
Extrapolating from the drop I would say that several colonies have no more than 100 mites in total.
I only monitor a few of my colonies.
This is my 4th year using Apiguard in August/September and Oxalic in December.
I have not had a varroa problem in that time other than having to pay £95 for a tub of Apiguard.

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## Jimbo

The varroa counts for this year are in from our club apairy colonies. Last year they gave a low count that was a bit unusual. This year after treating with Apivar strips after 3  days exposure the counts are varying from 200 to over 2000 mites per day. Similar results are being reported in some of the members colonies. I will be starting my treatments in the next week with Apivar so will see if will also have high counts this year.

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## Jon

Hi Jimbo
Do most of your folk use Oxalic or just a September thymol treatment?
A colony dropping 2000 mites will be hard to save. The virus load will be shocking.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,
Most used various treatments last year in the Autumn. I personally used Thymol crystals but we all do Oxalic acid trickle in the Winter.(we provide this as a benefit to the membership) This year the majority are using Apivar. including myself for autumn treatment then Oxalic again this winter.
There is a lot of talk about varroa resistance and everybody is moving away from the usual Apistan/Bavarol but nobody has actually tested to see if there is actually resistance in our area. I intend to do a resistance test soon and send the results to the SBA who want to monitor Scotland for resistance.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,

Just found out the club colonies were treated with Apivar strips in autumn then Oxalic acid in winter so a drop of over 2000 is unusual unless there is failing feral colonies in the area. The odd feral colony can still turn up in our area although it is getting rarer.

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## Jon

A drop of 2000 is very unexpected in a properly managed colony unless as you suggest a failing colony feral or other wise has been robbed out.
Any of mine I have looked at this year have had drops of between 5-20 mites per day after treatment started which suggests the mite load is very low.
We distributed several litres of oxalic to club members in December last year and apparently demand is growing and it will be even more this year.
We can discuss it in Stirling over a pint!

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## gavin

That's a muckle pile of Varroa.  One of my three in the home apiary (the one with a mesh floor) had a three-day drop of five mites when thymol treated.  The rest have no obvious signs of Varroa, including the five up the hills.  One belonging to a friend which spent the year in Dundee and was thymol treated last autumn and oxalic treated last December had a five-day drop of 500 on treatment with thymol.  That one was getting high.

See you on Friday guys!

G.

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## Jimbo

I will be arriving on Sat morning with Ben and Rhi so the pint will have to wait until Sat night. Jon I will bring along that Mars Bar I owe you for the first person to get all his red dots in the Amm box (no it will not be deep fried!)

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## Jon

> (no it will not be deep fried!)


Pity. I always like to try the regional specialties when I travel!
Perhaps a wafer thin slice.

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## gavin

If that's your party piece for the ceilidh I'm definitely giving it a body-swerve!

Perhaps this regional speciality - and a real contradiction in terms:



Oh dear, have I gone off-topic again?

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## gavin

> On reflection I'm not sure that having them clear out the sponge is necessarily a bad thing.


A friend who used the sponge method had rather yucky, gooey and oddly coloured 'propolis' all summer.  OK if you are extracting honey I suppose (as long as it doesn't dissolve in honey or wax, but I don't really fancy having viscose (if that is what it is)-propolis mix spread through the hive.

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## Neils

Not noticed similar in mine, a lot of them simply propolised them onto the top bars. This year I've switched to using that oasis stuff that I got from the local florist. Still sunning myself in turkey so not seen how they've got on with it do far.

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## EmsE

I've got the Apiguard on again this year, just to use up what I had left really. For the past few years, the mite drop has been negligible, although I've been putting that down to the possibility of them being blown off the varroa floor, but when doing the drone brood culling, I haven't seen any either.

This year is completely opposite. I noticed varroa in one of my colonies drone brood in early August, whipped the super off and put on the Apiguard and the drop was high. The other apiary where I hadn't seen a mite drop either is showing a heavy fall of mites now the treatment is on. It was a couple of weeks worth of floor scrapings and roughly estimate about 150 mites.
I've treated the past few years with Apiguard in August, oxalic trickle at Christmas and then drone culling through the year (just the part under a super frame and leave the rest of the drones as they are needed). I'm not the only one to notice this In our area, others have commented the same. So what's changed this year?

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## EmsE

P.s I'm hoping to change to Apivar next year as 3 out of the 4 colonies that need feeding are refusing to touch the syrup, plus it's not temperature dependent so I'd have more faith that it's working properly. I don't have enough water bottles for each hive to compensate for the weather :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Jon

If bees wont take syrup when they need it don't rule out nosema as refusal of syrup is a symptom of nosema imho.

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## EmsE

Hmm, hadn't thought of that & it could well be as the bees have been moved around quite a bit this year (unfortunately and out with my control). I'll have to get a sample and test them, but as they have a thymol treatment on will that help with the nosema (if it is present)? Apiguard is known to put bees off their feed which is why that sprung to mind first.

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## Jon

I have used apiguard for 4 years now and I find they take syrup feed ok during treatment. Some queens will stop laying.
Thymol dissolved in syrup feed over winter helps control nosema according to this paper by Youcel which I have posted before.
I doubt if Apiguard helps with nosema control as it needs to be present in the winter stores.

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## HJBee

EmsE's bees sit beside my new hive which has Apivar. Her bees do seem to be off their food and it is too stark a difference between mine and Ems to say its not the Apiguard, as her bees were very strong prior to the feed, including a new housed swarm (most comparable to the size / age of mine). It may not be the treatment alone, but it can't be ruled out.  Will be checking my mite drop in 8 days or so mid treatment.

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## Jimbo

Checked four colonies today for varroa drop after the first 7 days of treatment with Apivar. The drop is so high in all four colonies that I am having difficulty counting how many dropped. This is so different from last year when there was only a small drop after treating with Thymol. Any suggestions why some years are very high and some years like last year were so low. I am not alone in finding large drops. As posted earlier our club colonies are also high this year.

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## Jon

Mine are low again this year although I am only monitoring a few.
Some colonies are only dropping 4 or 5 per day.
Could they have robbed out collapsed colonies or ferals and taken the mites home?

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,

I doubt that as high varroa counts are starting to be reported all over our area. I think the weather may have something to do with it. As last year we were getting low counts and this year it was high if we were to look at temp or rainfall etc we may see a pattern that gave the low counts.

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## gavin

These last two summers have been similar dreary damp affairs at least in my neck of the woods.  I reckon that the main difference was that the winter was particularly mild and the mites may have kept breeding and - important for the oxalic treatment - may have had sealed brood in December.

Of course the neonics in the local OSR might have helped keep numbers low in my apiary (or maybe it was all that swarming .... )

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## Jon

last winter was really mild and the one before was exceptionally cold and I had a low mite drop the following autumn in each case. Hard to see a pattern. It varies so much at the colony level. last year with Oxalic I had one colony drop over 100 in December but others dropped only a few. All got Apiguard in August.

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## HJBee

This may be a daft newbee suggestion (or a PPB comment for those attending the Centenary) but if the weather has been poor and the bees not out flying as much over the summer etc, is there not a correlation that mite presence would have increased and be more prolific ad contact with bees in the hive increased? Or an I being too simplistic?

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## gavin

In fact it has been said that the opposite may be true.  Good foraging means booming colonies and booming colonies raise lots and lots of mites.  Maybe they raise proportionately more drone brood, or maybe they just take their eye off the ball, in a manner of speaking.  But clearly there is a lot we don't understand about mite dynamics.

No, far from a PPB comment.  I have a feeling that you are never going to be a practitioner of PPB.  Seems to be the Kilbarchan way.

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## Jon

The key thing with mites is to assume that they are always present and don't kid yourself that you can get away without treating.
People like Michael Bush in the US get away with it somehow but locally, the guys who skip treating for whatever reason nearly always get wiped out by varroa.
'natural' beekeepers like Phil Chandler have lost all their colonies 3 times as he reported on biobees last year, and are now rowing back furiously with regard to mite treatment. Thymol is ok if applied on a home made string but is part of the corporate death star when purchased from Vita or its ilk.

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## gavin

LOL!  Gotta love that corporate death star.

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## Jon

Signed the petition yet?

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13328

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## Neils

I'm all for those online petitions, they keep people too lazy to actually do something about something they supposedly care about happy, inside, out of trouble and believing that anyone, of any relevance, gives two hoots that 100,000 people clicked "like" on Facebook rather than have them staggering around outside where they might hurt themselves, other people, or hold up traffic.

At least 100,000 pieces of paper causes a bit of nuisance when you plonk it on the doorstep of Number 10 or outside the head office of corporate death star.  I suspect it takes the Chairman of Corporate Death Star's secretary's computer considerably less than a second to empty the Junk Mail folder at the end of the day when he/she goes home on they day they forward it on.

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## Jon

Nothing worse than getting tangled up in a mass of disorientated humans who have eaten too many yellow flowers for breakfast or in some sort of a side salad.
Be careful out there!

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...(or a PPB comment for those attending the Centenary) ...


PPB?  Petunia Pickle Bottom; Party Political Broadcast ... ?

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## Neils

Pretty (ahem) Poor Beekeeping.

 :Smile:

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## gavin

You must be taking the P?

Piss Poor Beekeeping is now regarded as a subset of the whole gamut of things lumped under CCD.  If you lost colonies in the US in those years, the temptation was to blame CCD.  Many seem to believe that there is/was something new which the realists reckon could be something like an interacting set (or sets) of pathogens together with stress from poor or poor quality forage and maybe beekeeper or farmer pesticides.  Although epidemiological studies of losses in the field failed to link that last one with the losses, there are still niggling doubts.

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## Jon

CCD is fairly nebulous to define and I am not convinced that it has occurred outside of the US.
A residue of a couple of hundred bees with a queen in springtime is not CCD, much more likely to be caused by one of the nosemas or PMS (parasitic mite syndrome) I have seen this in a couple of my own nucs and in other people's bees as well.
Local beekeepers who have had big losses - and it is always the same beekeepers year after year- are the ones who go on about CCD. When you press them there has been no varroa control, late varroa control or varroa control with some home made remedy.
A certain case of PPB and not very likely to be CCD.
They use things in the US for treating bees which we don't in Europe which could also be contributing to bee health problems long term due to synergies and interactions. Oxtetracycline, Coumaphos, Amitraz and who knows what else. If you remember the Engelsdorp paper from a couple of years ago found little evidence of neonicotinoids in the hive yet very high levels of chemicals put in the hive by the beekeeper as part of mite control.
Robert Paxton in his Saturday presentation at the Centenary mentioned he was looking at how fluvalinate interacts with some other pests, pathogens and chemicals. Fluvalinate is the active ingredient of Apistan and Bavarol

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## gavin

> They use things in the US for treating bees which we don't in Europe which could also be contributing to bee health problems long term due to synergies and interactions. Oxtetracycline, Coumaphos, Amitraz and who knows what else.


All three of these are in use in Scotland!  No sign of CCD in the bees involved though, quite the opposite.

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## Jon

Learn something new every day!
I don't think any of those are in general UK beekeeping use are they?
Are they part of that cascade system where a vet has to authorize the use?

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## gavin

Oxytetracycline can be prescribed and was widely used by bee farmers in Tayside (and officially managed) in autumn 2009.

Amitraz is Apivar and beekeepers of all scales have been getting it under the cascade system from a vet in Dumfries.  I'd say that by now it is in widespread use.

Coumaphos?  Also can be prescribed under the cascade system as it is approved in another EU country.  I know that it is being used.

My impression is that there is less ladling of chemicals into hives than in the US, but there is some.  There was one semi-commercial beekeeper locally who told our association that he was using a Danish recipe for pyrethroids from a non-approved source on his bees for example.  I strongly suspect that he wasn't the only one.

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## Jon

Coumaphos was only approved in one other EU state afaik, maybe Cyprus.

Nowt in mine other than thymol and Oxalic.

Are people using formic acid and lactic acid? I think it was Eric used to talk about these.

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## gavin

My impression: 

- mostly thymol and oxalic in one form or another
- still some Apistan
- Apivar becoming more widely used
- formic and lactic rather rare

Eric talks/writes about all sorts of chemicals.  He likes playing with them  :Wink: .

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## gavin

> Nowt in mine other than thymol and Oxalic.


Same here.

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## Neils

> All three of these are in use in Scotland!  No sign of CCD in the bees involved though, quite the opposite.


 Just to skip back a little and given that if I buy into the shenanigans at all it's been around resides in wax I thought there were a couple of interesting, almost throwaway lines, in one of Keith Delaplane's talks that US commercial colonies with higher levels of coumaphos in wax were healthier than a lot of others, largely attributed to the mite knockdown.

I'm not a convert by any means but it was an interesting nudge to my thinking, if anything to reinforce my belief that varroa remains the biggest challenge that we face in beekeeping.

I still don't want pyrethoids near my hives.

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## Black Comb

I have noticeably higher drops this year. All colonies except one (in the middle of the apiary) with hardly any.
Same regime as last, oxalic at Chistmas and Apiguard August. Monitoring throughout the season showed very low drops so it has been a surprise, especially as most colonies were queenless (and therefore Broodless) for many weeks due to the weather stopping queens mating.

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## nemphlar

Had look through a few of the hives today 3 that had a 3 week thymol treatment have no brood and look a bit thin on the ground. The 2 that had 8day FA treatment still had brood and appear better set for winter. This was the first time I'd used thymol for autumn treatment, the point of which was to have healthy bees for over wintering, not much point if there has been no brood since start of treatment.
Anyone else finding this

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## Neils

It is a possible side effect of thymol, I've noticed it in a few of my hives this year as well which is the first time I've encounterd it.

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## EmsE

> If bees wont take syrup when they need it don't rule out nosema as refusal of syrup is a symptom of nosema imho.


Now that the apiguard is off, all but one hive is taking the feed down enthusiastically, so am not concerned about nosema for them, however the other one I think could do with checking out.


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