# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  Any study showcasing Endosulfan and its effects on honey bees?

## stallion

Searching for some studies showcasing studies highlighting effects of Endosulfan on honey bees. 

Please share in your thoughts..

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## gavin

Endosulfan/Endosulphan has been tested as a treatment for acarine and Varroa mites, so it can't be that toxic to honeybees.  Unlike oft-repeated comments about honeybees being particularly sensitive to pesticides, it just doesn't seem to be true.  They have mechanisms to detoxify the pesticides used to treat Varroa such as flumethrin and tau-fluvalinate .. and it seems that they are relatively resistant to Endosulphan too.

However this campaign to preserve the pesticide is getting into politics that I don't understand.  Wikipedia seems convinced that it is seriously toxic to man:

_Doses as low as 35 mg/kg have been documented to cause death in humans, and many cases of sub-lethal poisoning have resulted in permanent brain damage. Farm workers with chronic endosulfan exposure are at risk of rashes and skin irritation.

EPA's acute reference dose for dietary exposure to endosulfan is 0.015 mg/kg for adults and 0.0015 mg/kg for children. For chronic dietary expsoure, the EPA references doses are 0.006 mg/(kg·day) and 0.0006 mg/(kg·day) for adults and children, respectively._

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## Neils

> Endosulfan/Endosulphan has been tested as a treatment for acarine and Varroa mites, so it can't be that toxic to honeybees.  Unlike oft-repeated comments about honeybees being particularly sensitive to pesticides, it just doesn't seem to be true.  They have mechanisms to detoxify the pesticides used to treat Varroa such as flumethrin and tau-fluvalinate .. and it seems that they are relatively resistant to Endosulphan too.
> 
> However this campaign to preserve the pesticide is getting into politics that I don't understand.  Wikipedia seems convinced that it is seriously toxic to man:
> 
> _Doses as low as 35 mg/kg have been documented to cause death in humans, and many cases of sub-lethal poisoning have resulted in permanent brain damage. Farm workers with chronic endosulfan exposure are at risk of rashes and skin irritation.
> 
> EPA's acute reference dose for dietary exposure to endosulfan is 0.015 mg/kg for adults and 0.0015 mg/kg for children. For chronic dietary expsoure, the EPA references doses are 0.006 mg/(kg·day) and 0.0006 mg/(kg·day) for adults and children, respectively._


Can the politics be boiled down to it being a cheap, generic pesticide that can be manufactured by anyone rather than a patented substance that can only be obtained from a single manufacturer?

Hence the raft of reports claiming it's relatively harmless from one side versus reports stating the opposite on the other?

Do we now get to see a series of arguments, possibly cherry picking data that'll make the recent shenanigans over neonics here look reasoned I wonder?

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## gavin

Possibly.  I'm waiting to see whether - now that the word is out that imidacloprid is off-patent and widely manufactured elsewhere - it becomes the next Bayer-controlled pesticide to change sides.  Suddenly it is a relatively safe one (very safe to humans and much safer than endosulphan, and apparently OK for bees if used with discretion), which the bad EU is about to ban due to internal political pressure, leaving Bayer controlling the newer pesticides still on their list?  I'll watch and wait with interest.

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## Stromnessbees

Hi stallion and _Welcome to the Forum_!

Nice to see another beekeeper interested in the pesticide issue. What's your own experience in your area?

I must admit that by venturing into defending Endosulfan I have gone into an area in which I don't want to dwell for any length of time. I only used it as an example to highlight the driving force behind all these enterprises: money.

As Endosulfan is already banned in Europe it would be tedious to discuss it here ad nauseam. Searching for and studying scientific papers is very time consuming and excludes many beekeepers who are not trained to understand all the detail. Much better to keep the discussion open for everybody and based on personal experiences.

All the best, Doris

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## Eric McArthur

[QUOTE=Stromnessbees;4367]Hi stallion and _Welcome to the Forum_!

[/quote = Eric;]Nice to see another beekeeper interested in the pesticide issue. What's your own experience in your area?[/I]


Test to see if the quote thing works for me!

Eric

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## gavin

> Test to see if the quote thing works for me!


If you click the 'Reply with quote' button below the message it does it automatically.  You can leave the full text quoted or reduce it to the most relevant bit within it.  Otherwise you can set it up manually in the body of the text within the box you get when you hit 'Reply' by adding this around text you want to quote (using square ie [ brackets rather than curly ones):

{QUOTE=Eric McArthur;4368} .... some text ..... {/QUOTE}

Use it for nice purposes though, eh Eric?

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## Neils

It will be interesting to see what happens, if as you say, imidacloprid is going out of patent.  Does a "ban on neonicotinoids" turn into Imidacloprid getting banned with little objection from the big pesticide companies or even it suddenly become unsafe?  I'm not cynical of course you understand.

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## chris

> Does a "ban on neonicotinoids" turn into Imidacloprid getting banned with little objection from the big pesticide companies or even it suddenly become unsafe?


"And only moving keeps us where we are............."

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## Eric McArthur

[QUOTE=gavin;4369]If you click the 'Reply with quote' button below the message it does it automatically.  You can leave the full text quoted or reduce it to the most relevant bit within it.  Otherwise you can set it up manually in the body of the text within the box you get when you hit 'Reply' by adding this around text you want to quote (using square ie [ brackets rather than curly ones):

{QUOTE=Eric McArthur;4368} .... some text ..... {/QUOTE}




> Use it for nice purposes though, eh Eric?


Hi Gavin
Thanks for that!  I note you used 'curly 'brackets.  Learning constantly if not well!
Eric

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