# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Cupkit System

## ebee

I understand the basics of the cupkit system what confuses me is the timing, once the queen has laid in the brown cells are the cells placed in the queen less colony straight away or do you wait a further 3 days can anyone enlighten me.

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## Jon

Hi Ebee. I graft rather than using cupkit but the principle is the same.
The bees start a queen cell from a suitable aged larva rather than an egg so I imagine you have to wait until the egg has hatched before putting the cups in your cell raiser colony - which does not necessarily have to be queenless.
I think Jimbo mentioned that he uses cupkit so he would be the best placed to comment.
I suspect that all unhatched eggs would be removed on introduction.

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## Jimbo

I have used the cupkit system for a number of years. For your timings you can download a nice excel sheet from the BIBBA web site called Tom's Tables. You just enter your start date and it corrects all the dates and times for you. In practice I have found that the queen sometimes when placed in the cupkit will stop laying so after 24 hr I check for eggs using a magnifying glass. If I don't see any I leave the queen for a further 24hrs and usually find eggs on the second visit. This alters the dates on Tom's Tables by 1 day, but other than that I find it an easy system to use and get about a 70% success rate in producing the queen cells ready for Apideas

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## KR68

Hi. I am new on here.
If you search IWF.de and watch raising queens it is fantastic as are all the videos I have watched. I am now trying to find out who they are and how to contact them. I would like sizes of their hives and how to make their floor.
KR

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## ebee

Thanks for your advice I will put it into practice in my attempt at rearing my own queens.

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## bees4u

that's a very useful site, thanks for the tip

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## Adam

I used a cupkit for the first time last year. On both occasions I put it in the centre of the broodnest for a day first so the workers could prepare the cells. Queen in the next day. I left her in for 1 day the first time and 2 days the next (_I think)_. Then put the brown plastic cups in the holders and into the queenless part of a rearing hive. So in both cases it was eggs that went in rather than 1 day old larvae. The brown colour of the cups means that you _should_ be able to see eggs through the translucent plastic. Poundland glasses always helps.

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## Jon

That's interesting Adam. I read somewhere that eggs would be rejected and it had to be larvae.
As Roger Patterson often says, you read a lot of twaddle in bee books.

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## Jimbo

I usually wait until they are 1 day old larvae in the bottom of the cup when you usually see a tiny drop of brood food. I have never tried just using the eggs. I suppose it would depend how queenless the colony is. I would have thought if the bees were desperate to produce a queen then they are unlikly to dispose of the eggs

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## HensandBees

Well thats module 7 sorted,  please Mr/s examiner, watch IFW.de I think that answers all your questions, now where is the nearest pub I am not due home for another couple of hours .....

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## HensandBees

ps I love the horse and cart for transport, I wonder if they have any vacancies for trainee managers.....

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## GRIZZLY

If you want to make a "deep" floor like the one shown on the IWF utube video,you can adapt a standard national  super or brood box by leaving out the two side boards,making a new "plug-in" back and resting the inner floor board on the two rebates of the top cleats.The opening is the full depth of the remaining side opening.The base is boarded to close this off.I have "mocked" one up in my workshop this morning and it looks feasible.

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## ebee

> I used a cupkit for the first time last year. On both occasions I put it in the centre of the broodnest for a day first so the workers could prepare the cells. Queen in the next day. I left her in for 1 day the first time and 2 days the next (_I think)_. Then put the brown plastic cups in the holders and into the queenless part of a rearing hive. So in both cases it was eggs that went in rather than 1 day old larvae. The brown colour of the cups means that you _should_ be able to see eggs through the translucent plastic. Poundland glasses always helps.


Hi Adam, thanks for the clear description of the cupkit being used that info has given me what i needed to try it out.

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## Adam

Commenting on previous posts, in a queenless hive, why would bees not use eggs if they are presented to them?

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## Jon

Dunno! It would not make sense to pass up the opportunity.
I have just had it drilled into me that you graft with very small larvae and I almost always uses a queenright system so I should just shut up about cupkit!

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## The Drone Ranger

I dug the cupkit system out again this year 
First use just stuck the queen in and by day two she had laid all the cups
I let her out , left the front off the cassette 
The eggs hatched and the bees provided a little jelly ready for transfer to the queen raiser

This month I put the kit in another hive, different bees and queen
Followed the same procedure and released her as soon as eggs were laid up
This time the bees cleared all the eggs from the cups

I stuck the queen back in but this time kept her there after eggs until some hatched and were given a little jelly
I took the larva and put them in a cell raiser and released the queen
Out of interest I then put the cassette back in the hive to see what they would do
Once again they removed everything from the cups apart from a couple of eggs

Odd how different hives act given the same circumstances (possibly time of year might be an influence)

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## The Drone Ranger

Used Cupkit system twice (different hives) this year near the end of May
Put the cassette in the day before then put the queen in only overnight
Left front on cassette and just pulled the white plug out to let her escape
They laid and it all went without a hitch in both cases 
The eggs were within 12 hrs of each other so that helps with timing

On the opposite side of the coin I impulse bought a Thorne NB copy of the Nicot (I was in the shop browsing, fatal)
So I grafted into those purple cups a few days ago and got 50% ( 5 takes) so waited for capping and then fitted the roller cages
They slipped off in front of my eyes so I pushed them on harder and watched them just slip slowly off again
Ended up taping the white bit and pushing the rollers on over tape real nuisance
I suppose it's a cheap £25 smaller scale copy of the nicot and likely made in China by someone who doesn't keep bees
I thought Thornes would have tested it before selling though

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## busybeephilip

Genuine Nicot will be marked with the name (thats what Nicot claim).  The small version of the box (Thorne NB) is not in the nicot catalog so it must as you say be a chinese import.    I was also wondering if purple and brown are the same size.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Genuine Nicot will be marked with the name (thats what Nicot claim).  The small version of the box (Thorne NB) is not in the nicot catalog so it must as you say be a chinese import.    I was also wondering if purple and brown are the same size.


No they aren't the brown nicot cups fall out of the Thorne NB white holder
The parts are are all slightly different size  brown.white and cups

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.amazon.co.uk/CUPKIT-Compl...s=nicot+cupkit
This looks like a good price £28 + £3 delivery
Thornes £70 + delivery
Thornes NB smaller look alike £25 + delivery

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## fatshark

I notice that Amazon also list a turnover crate for sheep in their queen rearing equipment at £2384.64 ... this must be for a method I'm not yet familiar with.

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## The Drone Ranger

Similar to stocking an apidea with bees.
The handy sheep cage allows a WBC to be inverted thus avoiding the tiresome task of dismantling the outer lifts and removing the frames

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## drumgerry

Ok so I've been using Jenter cups and  roller cages and latterly JzBz queen cups but have been finding things about each system niggling me and I'm thinking it's time to move over to Nicot holders, cups and cages.  There are aspects of that design which will solve some of my problems - I like that the roller cages have hinged lids and I think you can leave the base attached to the cell bar whilst removing the cell holder from it.  Please correct me if I'm wrong about that!

So.....where is best to buy said Nicot kit?  Not wanting cheap knockoff stuff as referred to above and would rather not pay Thornes prices if poss.

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## fatshark

The Nicot stuff is pretty good, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I bought most of mine from ModernBeekeeping and - before its demise - Buzzy Bees shop for the cell cups (I think). I see that ModernBeekeeping are out of stock at the moment. Mann Lake do them as well.

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## drumgerry

Thanks Fatshark!  Buzzybeeshop is a sad loss.  

Been searching around looking at prices and in the UK Maisemore seem to be the best so far at around £30 (incl shipping) for 20 complete units and 100 cell cups.

Alternatively I could take a punt and buy from Irish Bee Supplies for £20-ish not including shipping for 30 complete units and then I'd need to buy a packet of 100 of the cell cups for subsequent grafts (I sometimes clean and re-use cell cups sometimes don't).  Slightly concerned that these might be copycats at that price.  Anyone have any info on these?

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## The Drone Ranger

.

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## busybeephilip

WEll, I got the cupkit system as advertized on amazon from 'simon the beekeeper'.   You know what they say, if it looks to good to be true then it probably is not.

The cupkit components supplied are genuine NICOT however the box is a cheap chinese fake - shame on you Simon !    :Mad:  I compared it to my genuine original box, the moulding is poor and some of the cells are offset, the front and back covers are looser than the original and the white plug holes are smaller, the genuine NICOT has made in france etc in the moulding whereas this fake box has no text on it at all.  Wheather it would work as well as the original is to be decided and might explain reports of why some queens just wont lay in boxes if beeks are using fake boxes without knowing.  Errrrrr.

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## fatshark

If you know anyone in France you could order from Icko-Apiculture … I can't see the cups advertised, but the Nicot spigot, cage and cup holder are less than €14 for 20. That's less than £11 in our money, or about 500,000 drachma …

Order 1000 and they work out at about 40p each delivered.

PS I should have added … I've ordered from Icko and got great service. Quick delivery.

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## drumgerry

Thanks again guys.  I've ended up ordering from Mann Lake and ordering a 1,000 cups and 100 each of the various components not including the cassette which I won't need anyway.   Shipping was scary so I topped up the order to get free shipping with 3 National brood boxes.  We'll see what they're like.

I'll bear Icko in mind for future orders Fatshark but hopefully won't be needing more Nicot stuff for a while now!  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> WEll, I got the cupkit system as advertized on amazon from 'simon the beekeeper'.   You know what they say, if it looks to good to be true then it probably is not.
> 
> The cupkit components supplied are genuine NICOT however the box is a cheap chinese fake - shame on you Simon !    I .


Sorry about that Phill good news is if it is Amazon selling you can return for refund.
Being less observant I just accepted the Nicot logo was genuine

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## The Drone Ranger

> Sorry about that Phill good news is if it is Amazon selling you can return for refund.
> Being less observant I just accepted the Nicot logo was genuine


Counterfeit merchandise:*Products offered for sale on Amazon.co.uk must be authentic. Any product that has been illegally replicated, reproduced or manufactured*is prohibited.
Unauthorised and unlicenced merchandise:All items offered for sale on Amazon.co.uk must be commercially produced and authorized or licenced for sale as a retail product.

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## alancooper

> I graft rather than using cupkit but the principle is the same.
> The bees start a queen cell from a suitable aged larva rather than an egg so I imagine you have to wait until the egg has hatched before putting the cups in your cell raiser colony - which does not necessarily have to be queenless.
> I suspect that all unhatched eggs would be removed on introduction.


I also graft (using the Ben harden queen-right system) and get reasonable success. This year (I am now confident with my larva grafting technique) I grafted eggs - with zero success (grafted larvae a few days later were successful). Can anyone else confirm?

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## The Drone Ranger

These are photos of one bought from Thornes some years ago.

These are photos of Amazon one.
Cant see a difference the covers are interchangeable all pegs the same etc.
Internet down due to lightning so this on tapatalk might fail

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## The Drone Ranger

The amazon one again sorry some photos disappeared due to operator error.

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## The Drone Ranger

So all genuine but ordered another one 
This time it is fake.

Which is what Phill got sent as well so thats going back for refund.
Sneaky trick

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## The Drone Ranger

> I also graft (using the Ben harden queen-right system) and get reasonable success. This year (I am now confident with my larva grafting technique) I grafted eggs - with zero success (grafted larvae a few days later were successful). Can anyone else confirm?


There has been some debate about grafting eggs and consensus is it doesn't work.
Likewise you wait till eggs hatch when using cupkit

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## masterbk

Someone will need to tell my bees as over the last three years I have on three occasions  put frames with 20 plastic cupkit cells with 3 day old eggs from cupkit into colonies using cloake board system and got between 9 , 14 and 11 queen cells respectively (in comparision with 1 day old larvae I have achieved between 15 and 19) . Use of eggs all came about because queens didn't lay right away in the cupkit box so when I went to transfer the cells on the 4th or 5th day all I found was eggs and due to circumstances (a weeks foreign holiday in every case) I could not wait as it would be impossible for me to come the next day to transfer larvae.  I must try in future not to queen rear so close to booked holidays ( dates of which are determined by my better half) The main problem I have with cupkit is the queen escaping from the box through the gaps down the sides between the front cover and the box if the cover is not pressed firmly enough into position with just a small amount of wax or propolis allowing the gap to be large enough for he rto squeeze through (you don't get this probelm with jenter as the front cover fits tight to the face of the box).

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## The Drone Ranger

When you move cups to cell bar
If you leave the cassette in you can check takes next day
Any gaps pick up another larva from cassette.
Might get a third chance before they are too old.

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## drumgerry

So....my cupkit kit has arrived!  All fits together nicely.  How many of the brown bases (the bits that are pinned on) do you guys get on two bars of a National frame?  I can get two rows of 10 using Jenter kit.  The nicot stuff is a bit bulkier so it seems to be a bit of a squeeze getting the same or am I being too fussy?

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## fatshark

Hi drumgerry*  far too late to start queen rearing this year  you'll have to put that shiny new stuff away until 2016  :Wink: 

You can comfortably fit 10 of the Nicot cell base holders to a single bar in a National frame. The only problem you might have is arranging the cell bar frame to allow two rows to be caged easily (once they're swamped with helpful workers).


*  autocorrect makes this drudgery, lucky I noticed and changed it back.

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## drumgerry

Some days drudgery isn't too far wide of the mark Fatshark!

As for 2016 - pah!    :Smile:   I'm  halfway through my QR activities this season and decided to re-tool mid-stream.

Thanks re the cells per bar info - I'm going to use the underside of the top bar for one row to allow for roller cages on both rows.

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## drumgerry

And the cell bars now in situ - on a DN4 frame.  Posted in case it's of any use to people trying to visualise the system.

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## The Drone Ranger

> So....my cupkit kit has arrived!  All fits together nicely.  How many of the brown bases (the bits that are pinned on) do you guys get on two bars of a National frame?  I can get two rows of 10 using Jenter kit.  The nicot stuff is a bit bulkier so it seems to be a bit of a squeeze getting the same or am I being too fussy?


You have that all sorted now DG
The instructions for fitting the cassette say cut a comb and fit it in 
I find its better just to start with a new frame and fix the cassette to it
Cut wax foundation and fit/stick it to fill the rest of the frame
Stick that in the hive of the queen you are going to use  for a day (they should start drawing wax)
Next evening stick the queen in through the hole where the white plug comes out on front
In the morning have a look, If there are eggs pull out the plug and she will escape don't take the front QX off
Later that day check the eggs are still there (they get eaten sometimes)
If they are still there have a glass of wine and wait till they hatch
Use the white part to pick up brown cups showing tiny amount of royal jelly in them

I have found if I arrange the hive in a Ben Harden type setup soon after releasing queen
Keep the cassette in the centre till eggs hatch
Then put the cell bar in the centre but move the cassette to the side (leave it in)
Check cell bar next day, if there are some blanks pick up other larva from the cassette
Check again at close of play
Any last gaps go back to the cassette and get youngest available larva
The cassette can come out now and be cleaned
Cell bar should be full 
Hive in Ben Harden style 
Job done

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## fatshark

> And the cell bars now in situ - on a DN4 frame.  Posted in case it's of any use to people trying to visualise the system.


Nice job  :Big Grin:  How do you graft into the top bar? Does it remove as it looks like it doesn't rotate?

*Edit* D'oh … Cupkit … no grafting. Apologies, not enough coffee imbibed yet this morning.

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## drumgerry

No you were right the first time.  I'm a grafter!  (Must be all that drudgery!)  

The top bar doesn't rotate but there's still enough room I think to graft using my super duper Swiss crank armed tool.

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## gwizzie

> And the cell bars now in situ - on a DN4 frame.  Posted in case it's of any use to people trying to visualise the system.


WOW looks nice, now I know were to get some queens LOL  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> No you were right the first time.  I'm a grafter!  (Must be all that drudgery!)  
> 
> The top bar doesn't rotate but there's still enough room I think to graft using my super duper Swiss crank armed tool.


Hi drumgerry
 If you are grafting dont put the brown cups in 
Graft in to each cup one at a time and then plug them into the white base
Easier than controlling the frame or balancing it while you struggle to get larva in
Plus you can get the eyeglass on each cup to see all is well 
That's my tip for people with eyesight like mine  :Smile:

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## Jon

I set out the cups on a tray and graft into them one by one then attach them to the brown base cups when I am finished.
I get 11 cells on each row in a grafting frame.

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## busybeephilip

I just use a detachable bar with all brown and cream cups assembled in a row,  insert the larvae then pop into knotches in the holding frame, small clips can be used to prevent the bar from sliding out when the frame is tilted.

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## gwizzie

I have a question or two about this system if I may.

1: where is the best place to buy ? of ebay from simon as called and asked if they were branded and the lady checked for me and one that she checked was branded with logo ect and another was not.

2: I have a few members around here that have VERY good bees, that have not swarmed in 2 years and are very prolific, if they were agreeable what would be the best way to collect eggs and transfer them (if grafted ) to my hive ?

2: How do you attach the cell bar blocks to the frame.

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## The Drone Ranger

Dont go to simon the beekeeper you are likely to get a fake.
My fault for mentioning him The first one I bought was genuine the second an unmarked copy which Nemphlar and I both checked and bees cant get through the excluder.
The cassette works best early season or at least on a good nectar flow.
I would graft if I was you Gwizzy.
You do need a good queen to graft from if you are requeening all your hives or something 
For now I would just use your best queen you have till you get your eye in so to speak.
No matter what queen you have to graft from the local drone pool can mess things up.
Think Marilyn Monroe and Charles Bronson (not ideal)
but its better than
Anne Widdecombe and Charles Manson

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## drumgerry

Also...don't be led into believing that prolific is always best.  What you want is a strain of bees that can recognise a dearth and tailor it's brood rearing accordingly.  The last thing you want (although it does happen in the worst of summers with the best of bees) is to be feeding a huge colony to keep it alive when they can't/won't go out to forage in marginal weather.  Overly-prolific bees will turn all of their resources into brood which might be fine in a good summer and not so fine in a bad one.

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## gwizzie

> Dont go to simon the beekeeper you are likely to get a fake.
> My fault for mentioning him The first one I bought was genuine the second an unmarked copy which Nemphlar and I both checked and bees cant get through the excluder.
> The cassette works best early season or at least on a good nectar flow.
> I would graft if I was you Gwizzy.
> You do need a good queen to graft from if you are requeening all your hives or something 
> For now I would just use your best queen you have till you get your eye in so to speak.
> No matter what queen you have to graft from the local drone pool can mess things up.
> Think Marilyn Monroe and Charles Bronson (not ideal)
> but its better than
> Anne Widdecombe and Charles Manson


HAHAHA you make me laugh  :Wink:  thanks for the info and understand now, I will try some grafting on one of my best queens just to see how I get on. I am looking for a very excluded spot that I can do some breeding next year to try and keep the drunken yobbo drones away.... LOL

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## gwizzie

> Also...don't be led into believing that prolific is always best.  What you want is a strain of bees that can recognise a dearth and tailor it's brood rearing accordingly.  The last thing you want (although it does happen in the worst of summers with the best of bees) is to be feeding a huge colony to keep it alive when they can't/won't go out to forage in marginal weather.  Overly-prolific bees will turn all of their resources into brood which might be fine in a good summer and not so fine in a bad one.


Thanks for that!! I understand now and it does make sense.

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## prakel

> Also...don't be led into believing that prolific is always best.  What you want is a strain of bees that can recognise a dearth and tailor it's brood rearing accordingly.  The last thing you want (although it does happen in the worst of summers with the best of bees) is to be feeding a huge colony to keep it alive when they can't/won't go out to forage in marginal weather.  Overly-prolific bees will turn all of their resources into brood which might be fine in a good summer and not so fine in a bad one.


I've only ever seen one reference to bees which are allegedly capable of preempting a dearth, so, assuming that you're advocating bees which respond once the dearth sets in by curtailing their brood rearing how do they then get a maximum crop once things swing the other way again? Or do they simply rebuild on the flow when it comes?

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## drumgerry

This is something I've experienced myself in years gone by with distinctly non-native strains of bee.  Bees which fill a brood box or more with brood and don't maintain the stores to support such numbers - in poor summers.  Something we experience most years here in northern Scotland.  

The closer I get to native type/AMM bees the less pronounced such seeming profligacy with brood seems to become. 

But I think my choice of phrase above was unfortunate.  Been having a read at my copy of Ruttner et al's Dark European Honey Bee.  He puts one of the differences between AMM type bees and say Italians as the AMMs being moderate in all things - "in quantity of brood, in number of bees, and also in food consumption.  Therefore this race is superior in a moderate nectar flow, usually interrupted again and again by spells of bad weather."  This would be more like what I've observed rather than speeding up and slowing down of brood raising.  Ruttner says it better than me!  Thanks for keeping me right Prakel!

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## prakel

lol -I wouldn't dream of keeping someone else 'right' when I know what I'm like myself  :Smile: . 

It's just one of those 'things' we see repeated a lot by people who plainly haven't thought about it, at least, not at the level of your last post.

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## drumgerry

Fair enough Prakel.  :Smile: 

I stick by what I said about turning everything into brood - I've had bees like that and they're a curse in a crap summer.  The bees I have now are a more native type bee and raise a moderate brood best at a moderate pace and except in the worst of times usually have sufficient stores.

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## prakel

There's always a balance but as you said "don't be led into believing that prolific is always best" -sometimes, but not always.

edit: I wonder how much this has to do with fitting bees to boxes RP style? _If_ I find an established colony on the wrong side of prosperous I can pretty much guarantee that it'll be one of our BS colonies (on a single box) not one of the dadants.

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## drumgerry

I think some of it has to do with geography as well.  Single BB beekeeping makes more sense maybe in the north of Scotland than perhaps it does in the south of England.  

Also I would suggest that there's not much in beekeeping that's more depressing than having to feed a colony that is choc a bloc with brood in the middle of June when others in the apiary are sitting on a few deep frames of stores to tide them over.  If I have one of the former then it gets earmarked for splitting up into nucs once my this years queens are ready.

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## The Drone Ranger

The nicest bees I ever had were ltalian a queen from KBS.
Not like the European ones it was slightly smaller light golden in colour from Australia or NZ
My Gt Nephew was 5 and we could poke about in them with impunity.
He is about to leave school now and only interested in Buses not Buzzing.
Anyway aside from their marvelous temper the queen was around for a few years so not over swarmy  
Still they were useless for honey and needed double broodbox The top one all food to get through Winter 
They would have been great down South though.
I mentioned elsewhere I have one of Jon's queens (on loan) and it will be Amm pretty much.
That one is again a lovely temperament and more able to feed the colony and get a surplus.
Carnies are generally good in all respects as well and not always as swarmy as their reputation suggests.
They all end up being replaced by hybrids in time unlike the cash outlay buying them in lol !

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## prakel

> The nicest bees I ever had were ltalian a queen from KBS.
> Not like the European ones it was slightly smaller light golden in colour from Australia or NZ
> My Gt Nephew was 5 and we could poke about in them with impunity.
> He is about to leave school now and only interested in Buses not Buzzing.
> Anyway aside from their marvelous temper the queen was around for a few years so not over swarmy  
> Still they were useless for honey and needed double broodbox The top one all food to get through Winter 
> They would have been great down South though.
> I mentioned elsewhere I have one of Jon's queens (on loan) and it will be Amm pretty much.
> That one is again a lovely temperament and more able to feed the colony and get a surplus.
> ...


Had some experience with the NZ Italians too (from a different source): wasn't a great success here in the wet and windy south either so I'm not sure why you think your ones would have been  :Smile: 

Totally agree with your comments about carnica though.

Thing is, I've had colonies which maintained smaller broodnests that were also useless at getting honey too.  So many factors involved but breeding for smaller colonies won't be on my list of things to do anytime soon. I wonder how big the average colony actually is? There's some interesting early stage research being done on this in the US which suggests that on average our colonies are already smaller than we like to think:

@ approx 49 mins (but anyone who hasn't watched the whole video yet, please don't just skip to 49....).

https://youtu.be/PqoZvVu1E7s

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## The Drone Ranger

> Had some experience with the NZ Italians too (from a different source): wasn't a great success here in the wet and windy south either so I'm not sure why you think your ones would have been 
> 
> Totally agree with your comments about carnica though.
> 
> Thing is, I've had colonies which maintained smaller broodnests that were also useless at getting honey too.


Hi Prakel
I lived in London for about 30 years and the summer comes early and last longer than up here in Angus
Altitude is a factor as well I think down in the Tay valley the temperatures are better earlier

I have only visited Dorset , Durdle Door, Alfriston and the weather was wonderful, great place for holiday
On the other hand Kent where a couple of friends live has blinking horrible Winters compared to London, where snow is a rarity, and it's too hot to sleep on Summer nights

So my definition of "The South" is a bit generic and vague , better to say some places down South have the right climate for those bees 
They need a long season and then they would thrive perhaps ideal for an allotment in London

The AMM queen which came from Jon is filling a double brood box, its big colony (this is one individual they will vary )
The commercial beeks mostly use Carniolans They used to be from either NZ or Australia (not sure where from these days) 
I guess they feel they are the right bee for the job 
I get crosses and an injection of good genes from that free of charge

I wonder how the Italian package bees that were on TV (penguins on a plane) got on honey gathering
They are a different strain from the KBS type and will probably not have as gentle a nature as NZ ?
I forget why they weren't using Carnie queens that year 
I think it was Winter losses had left too few colonies to split and re queen 

Bet I'm way off topic again I have been told off about that in the past  :Smile: 

Lets just say if you had any of the above you could graft from them and get a bit of experience in so doing

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## prakel

> I wonder how the Italian package bees that were on TV (penguins on a plane) got on honey gathering


Italian by birth, but I was under the impression that they weren't ligustica (at least, not the queens).

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## prakel

> I have only visited Dorset , Durdle Door, Alfriston and the weather was wonderful, great place for holiday


Lovely snapshot of life in Dorset.... we always enourage holiday maker's to take a jar of local honey home as a present for grandma.

The guy (Stuart Morris) who filmed this video was stood a few yards from one of our sites. It's the wind that does the damage here -sucking the life out the hives... now, if ever there was a good reason to invest in polyhives this far south that would be it.

https://youtu.be/XiiK0fyIyDA

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## The Drone Ranger

Just come in from moving larva into a cell bar from the cupkit
I wasn't certain there would be any as the bees can remove them when they are not keen
If there is no flow like now its a bit less predictable 

The queen had a one and a half day stay in the cassette before eggs were laid and release
Often just overnight is enough if she is in the mood

Then its just wait till the first larval food appears
The cupkit stays in to fill any blanks tomorrow

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## The Drone Ranger

Back to torrential rain now.
Oh well that wont help

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## The Drone Ranger

Ok checked how many starts and it was 17 out of the 20 so picked up 3 more larva from the cupkit to fill those gaps
Cupkit frame taken out now as they have started storing honey in the comb round the box

On a slight tangent the other hives I am using for rearing had 
7 out of 10 they were all hand grafted

and the third hive 0 out of 10 hand grafted from the same frame

The difference might be that the first two hives are queenless rearers
The third one is Ben Harden style with a young queen (too young) probably with strong pheromones

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## Jon

I always get more starts from a queenless colony than a queenright system.
I sometimes use a starter finisher system, ie start the cells in a queenless colony them move them to a Ben Harden setup the next day.
MBC will be along in a minute to ask me why I don't have a Cloake board set up yet which would save moving the frame.

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## drumgerry

I've been using a Cloake board in a queenright Harden setup this summer Jon.  Using it to close off the top box with the grafts for 24 hours then removing the slider-y thing to make them Q+ again.  Can't say I've noticed much of a difference in numbers of cells started.  Only used it a few times though so I'll continue with it and see what transpires.

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## fatshark

I also had a dabble with a Cloake board this summer. Acceptance rate seemed about the same, but I didn't do enough to be sure there wasn't a difference. One thing that did impress me about using the Cloake board was the density of bees achievable in the cell raiser 'half'. I got the impression that the cells received a lot more attention … certainly when pulling the cell bar out there were many more bees adhering. 

I can see the advantage of double entrance floors (front and back) for this as well, no need to reverse a double colony + supers.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I always get more starts from a queenless colony than a queenright system.
> I sometimes use a starter finisher system, ie start the cells in a queenless colony them move them to a Ben Harden setup the next day.
> MBC will be along in a minute to ask me why I don't have a Cloake board set up yet which would save moving the frame.


Jon do you find if you set up the ben harden on the hive where you are taking grafts from the success rate is very much better ?
I think it is, but there are so many other variables and I don't do as much grafting as you and the other queen raisers on the forum, so can't be sure
At the start of the season the queen right system worked like a charm but I was using cupkit cassette in the hive that became Ben Harden raiser

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## Jon

The larvae I graft are usually from a different colony. I guess it is possible that they might find their own larvae more acceptable due to smell or something.
With a queenless colony you can get near 100% started if you graft properly and it is a really strong starter colony with lots of young bees in it. With a queenright colony I usually get 50-60% started. If it is understrength it tends to only start a couple of cells.

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## The Drone Ranger

I must do an experiment and put say 10 home and 10 away on a single cell bar in a Ben Harden setup and see if it makes a difference
Might have to be next season though

One advantage of the cupkit system is you can get larva very young and not roughed up by handling even if you are blind as a bat and have shaking hands  :Smile:

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## Jon

I am blind as a bat but have a steady hand and graft with my specs off to get a close focus.
You do see some differences in where grafts get started.
The grafts at the edge of the frame are much less likely to get started, presumably because the density of bees is lower at the edge.
Sometimes most of the grafts are started on one or other of the two bars as opposed to being evenly distributed ie you get 10 on the top bar and only two on the bottom bar or vice versa. Again, I suspect density of bees and/or heat distribution within the colony.

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## gavin

The fine gentlemen of Fife finally persuaded me recently to try a headband magnifier that had been on offer before but I was too proud to try.  What a revelation!  Henceforth all my grafted larvae will be young, undamaged and 'the right way up' (if that matters).  £28 on Amazon. Lightcraft LED Headband Magnifier.

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## busybeephilip

Would you believe it ! I bought one of these too.  Used it once then gave up as with my short sight I could actually see the larvae better.

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## busybeephilip

> Henceforth all my grafted larvae will be young, undamaged and 'the right way up' (if that matters).


Apparently right way up does matter, the larvae breathe through one side as the other spiracles are covered in jelly

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## Jon

> Apparently right way up does matter, the larvae breathe through one side as the other spiracles are covered in jelly


Is that true Philip or is it just one of those myths passed down from one beekeeper to another. I have never seen any reference to that other than anecdote.
I dry graft so it probably does not matter in that case.

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## busybeephilip

Jon, I read it somewhere and it does have a certain amount of logic to it as the spiracles are lateral on the larvae so if the larvae is lying in brood food/jelly or whatever then it can only breathe through one side.  i'll let you put it to the test  :Smile:   When I'm using the chinese thing the larvae is usually transferred with some food and remains the same side up, any larvae that get turned over always look very wet and i reject these.

If you dry graft i wonder if larvae can reorientate themselves if the top upper  spiracles are blocked.  You would know if the larvae had been inverted after grafting as the c shape would be a mirror image of the original position.

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## busybeephilip

Jon check this out -
http://www.coloss.org/beebook/I/artificial-rearing/4/5

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## Jon

Still not convinced it is a critical factor. I do try and place them in the cup the same way up though. Must do a graft where I deliberately turn every one over and see how many get started.

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## gavin

Do you remember that time-lapse video that was doing the rounds?  I think they all went clockwise as they munched through (or hoovered up) the brood food.  That suggests (if true) that they have a preferred side to lie on.

Nope, it isn't true.  Some go clockwise, some anti-clockwise.  They can lie on either side.

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## fatshark

Some graft by washing larvae out of the comb in weak syrup/honey, then picking them up from a tray with a paintbrush and putting them into the cells. There's a video of this - Polish? - on YouTube I think. This was large scale grafting. I've done this with slightly older larvae than normal and it works well. 

Sidedness is a myth in my view.

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