# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Queen Rearing pdfs

## prakel

I thought that it might be interesting to collect together links to the various queen rearing pdfs which are available on the net (even if they've been linked to previously in separate threads). A few to start with but I hope that others will add further links.

University of Arkansas: raising Quality Queen Bees.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...VrrSPzcqB7iUug

NSW Department of Primary Industry: Rearing Queen Bees.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...57155469,d.ZG4

Cornell University: Queen Reaing by Beekeepers in the Northeast.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...57155469,d.ZG4

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Prakel 
This isn't a pdf but is about queen creation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64cKn4rLNM

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## prakel

> Hi Prakel 
> This isn't a pdf but is about queen creation
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64cKn4rLNM


Sneaky devil DR, after a lifetime of managing to keep bees without ever watching a fat-beeman video you hooked me!

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## The Drone Ranger

Many apologies Prakel 
It's just one rough and ready step backwards from cell punching  :Smile:

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## prakel

Rough's fine by me -as long as we've got the mating nucs/bee reserves to hold the queens for initial assessment. To be honest I'm not sure there's a real benefit in this method over making walk away splits but I do like his cheerful persona and the message that queen rearing need not be some complex palava.

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## Beefever

Please tell me about a walk away split.  Do you split off a queenless nuc to rear it's own queen or do you split the whole hive?  I know it's a USA thing but never really got to grips with it.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Please tell me about a walk away split.  Do you split off a queenless nuc to rear it's own queen or do you split the whole hive?  I know it's a USA thing but never really got to grips with it.


Hi Beefever
If you wait till a hive makes queencells then split it you need to be able to find the queen

The idea of a walk away split is to divide the broodnest between two nucleus sized colonies without finding the queen
The queenless one will make cells and produce a queen 
The two colonies will take a while to get back up to strength though particularly the queenless one

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## prakel

I'm really not sure that it is an American thing although I read this a lot. Over the years I've met quite a few British beekeepers who use the method in some form or another; maybe they've all now been educated out of such practices.... or perhaps they just keep their heads down for fear of condemnation from the ones who are educated. I've used it in the past, generally with good results but as with any queen rearing there's always the chance of it going wrong which can be expensive when you're taking boxes/half boxes of bees from full colonies. On balance it's got to be far better to run dedicated mating nucs for the job and then introduce successfully mated queens to splits.

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## Black Comb

> I'm really not sure that it is an American thing although I read this a lot. Over the years I've met quite a few British beekeepers who use the method in some form or another; maybe they've all now been educated out of such practices.... or perhaps they just keep their heads down for fear of condemnation from the ones who are educated. I've used it in the past, generally with good results but as with any queen rearing there's always the chance of it going wrong which can be expensive when you're taking boxes/half boxes of bees from full colonies. On balance it's got to be far better to run dedicated mating nucs for the job and then introduce successfully mated queens to splits.


A couple of very experienced beeks near me say it is "best" to mate queens in nucs if you can. I.e. Make up nuc and place your cell in at the same time. 
So, next year I want to run 3 more colonies. I have the hives, the nucs and the Apideas. Which way to go once I have the sealed cells ready to emerge?

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## Beefever

Thanks for that info DR and Prakel.  I do graft when queen rearing and after a lot of heart ache have become more proficient at it but that Fat Bee Man vid seems so simple that I think I’ll have a go next year just to see what happens.  I wonder if that’s his idea?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks for that info DR and Prakel.  I do graft when queen rearing and after a lot of heart ache have become more proficient at it but that Fat Bee Man vid seems so simple that I think I’ll have a go next year just to see what happens.  I wonder if that’s his idea?


Hi beefever

Cell punching is another method
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxjOMApFUJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGbbAsAuNOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1qI17v29jc
The last one using the stainless steel rings you just leave the ring round the cell and push it into wax on a bar like the fat beeman made
or into cell cup holders like the cupkit white type
Attachment 1907 Attachment 1908
The first punch is a bit crude
The second is better
The third is best but I would say that wouldn't I  :Smile:

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## prakel

> A couple of very experienced beeks near me say it is "best" to mate queens in nucs if you can. I.e. Make up nuc and place your cell in at the same time. 
> So, next year I want to run 3 more colonies. I have the hives, the nucs and the Apideas. Which way to go once I have the sealed cells ready to emerge?


For what it's worth, in your position I'd be getting the apideas going, lots of useful apidea advice on this forum -and access to the Irish apidea guru for back up. Then, once I was happy with the queens I'd be stocking the nuc boxes and introducing the queens to them -keep the bulk bees working in their hive (whether it's a case of honey or comb building) for as long as possible.

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## Black Comb

Thanks.
That to me seems logical and is my plan, but thought I'd ask as local consensus seems to be to go direct into nucs.

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## Rosie

I hate to contradict anyone but for me mini-nucs are good for producing cheap queens but nucs are easier for producing colonies.

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## Adam

I use both nucs and mini-nucs.  
Nucs:-I usually sell (just) a few nucs so I tend to put some early queencells in nucs for that purpose. As I don't make promises I can't keep, I only call the purchaser after the brood is sealed and it isn't drone so by the time the nuc is inspected and collected the queen has been laying for 3 weeks or so and can be seen to be good.  

Mini-nucs: I tend to use these for my own needs and (reluctantly) accept that I will get the odd absconding from them. _But where do they go?_

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## The Drone Ranger

Best of both worlds just use a Snelgrove board 
You still have a full size productive colony with built in swarm control 
and in the top box you can introduce a favourite queen cell
Plus no pulling the hive apart for about a month or more
Whats not to like  :Smile:

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## prakel

> I hate to contradict anyone but for me mini-nucs are good for producing cheap queens but nucs are easier for producing colonies.


Cheap is one way to look at it, economical is another good word! I don't think that we're really at odds with each other on this one. However in Black Comb's situation, having those apideas to hand already, I'd be making them work for their keep.

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## mbc

I have lots of five and six frame nucs, brood boxes with dividers to make two nucs and various division boards of different designs, all of which have been sidelined for mating purposes as mini nucs are so much more cost effective or economical for getting virgin queens mated.
Even considering the roughly one in ten queens which are lost on introduction, I find it better to take mated queens from mini nucs and introduce them to full size frame nucs for sale and/or increase, rather than 'wasting' all the resources in a big nuc while waiting for a virgin to 'may/or may not' mate successfully.

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## prakel

> I have lots of five and six frame nucs, brood boxes with dividers to make two nucs and various division boards of different designs, all of which have been sidelined for mating purposes as mini nucs are so much more cost effective or economical for getting virgin queens mated.


Similar here, maybe exaggerated by the fact that my split boxes are md deeps so there's a big cost if they're allowed to go backwards while trying to do a job which a miniplus can do very well. On a slightly different angle, I think that a great use of these boxes is to use them for overwintering smallish, but otherwise good colonies instead of uniting them -a suggestion made by CC Miller in his book 50 Years Among the Bees back at the turn of the twentieth century.

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## mbc

> Similar here, maybe exaggerated by the fact that my split boxes are md deeps so there's a big cost if they're allowed to go backwards while trying to do a job which a miniplus can do very well. On a slightly different angle, I think that a great use of these boxes is to use them for overwintering smallish, but otherwise good colonies instead of uniting them -a suggestion made by CC Miller in his book 50 Years Among the Bees back at the turn of the twentieth century.


I also use the split boxes for overwintering small colonies, but with the advent of poly nucs I certainly wont be making any more split boxes as the poly nucs are just as effective for overwintering small colonies and are much more convenient for utilising the colonies in the Spring.

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## prakel

When funds finally allow I'll be going that way too I think, but the bees need to pay for them if they want 'em.

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## Black Comb

That's my plan. Raise lots of queens in Apideas, replace old or bad tempered residents and place surplus into polynucs for overwintering. I hope I breed enough!

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## beejazz

Just to breathe a bit of life into the thread/forum!  I was thinking why I had so few grafts started this year, they were put into a q+ demaree? Ben Harman method set-up.  Maybe I would have had a better acceptance rate if I had made up a q- starter nuc, as seen in the PDF's Prakel posted, (what alot of P's!).  Or, as I think could have happened, they dried out before putting back into the hive?  On some vids on the internet beekeepers cover over each graft with a damp cloth before going on to the next one, I could try doing that. What I found interesting was that there is no brood put into the starter nucs to compete with the bees willingness to tend to the grafts, while if starting in a Q+ hive brood must be brought up to were the grafts are placed to attract the nurse bees up.  Do any forumers use starter nucs, is there a better acceptance rate?

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## gavin

If it was a sunny, drying day and especially if you didn't work quickly then they might have dried too far. However if conditions aren't right then the Q+ system works less well. Do it while the colony is feeling prosperous (good forage, good weather) or feed during the week before and during cell raising. Also some colonies seem more reluctant to cooperate. 

Going Q- should force them into it, even when conditions are less good, but is that a good thing? Prob best to ensure that you have conditions right for raising good queens first. Lots of young bees, lots of pollen, lots of food coming in. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi bejazz
I used the upper box of a Snelgrove split on two hives and a queen right hive with brood above a super and QX as per Jon recommendation they both work fine 
The first set of grafts or punches had fewer takes than the second set so they might need to get into their stride first 
On one of the boxes over the Snelgrove though I got some takes on the first set then zero next time --tried again -- nothing 
I missed a queen cell some where and there was a virgin in the box with the grafts 
I left her to mate but she became a drone layer and had to be replaced anyway 
Should have known better  :Smile:

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## Black Comb

Same experience as myself Beejazz. It was my first year and I concentrated too much on the grafting or other starter methods and did not prepare the cell raiser colonies (only tried 2) adequately.
Having read a lot more recently I will start preparing the cell raisers several weeks prior to ensure they  have a good supply of nurse bees and food.
Will be cloak board at next year's first attempts.
Never got around to either miller or hopkins so might try those as well next year.
This is a long term thing for me so when I find what suits me best I will stick to it.

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## Beefever

Hi DR
I’m interested in your queen rearing over a Snelgrove board.  Do you use a swarming colony or one you think is about to swarm?  Then, once divided, do you wait to knock down all queencells before grafting or punching?  What about using those little doors to bleed off bees?  I would have thought the more bees the merrier (well it is December) in this case.  Many questions I seem to ask!

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## gavin

> Many questions I seem to ask!


Its good to ask questions ... especially if there's a hint of Yoda about them!

I'm also puzzled by the use of a Snelgrove board.  The widely used queenright method of Wilkinson and Brown (also called the Ben Harden method) is based on the Demaree procedure (as is, I suppose, the use of a Snelgrove board).

The method was discussed here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-queen-rearing

and for completeness sake this is the crucial PDF that many queen raisers turn to:

https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/bee...ment.cfm?id=36

The alternative is to stuff a queenless box with feel-good young bees, pollen and nectar/syrup plus feel-good flying bees to keep the goodies coming in.  A Snelgrove board is to bleed off flying bees into the queenright box, isn't it?  

The advantage of the Wilkinson and Brown method is that you can maintain a colony in that state for a relatively long time, just weekly performing the Demaree procedure of young stuff and pollen up top and queen, space and some of the sealed stuff down below.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR
> I’m interested in your queen rearing over a Snelgrove board.  Do you use a swarming colony or one you think is about to swarm?  Then, once divided, do you wait to knock down all queencells before grafting or punching?  What about using those little doors to bleed off bees?  I would have thought the more bees the merrier (well it is December) in this case.  Many questions I seem to ask!


Hi beefever
Because of oil seed rape and the bees I have, I would expect my first swarm by the end of May if I didn't do anything
So the boards have to go on before bees make any swarm preparations (definitely no queen cells)
ThHat's a guide for me though, not a rule, and this year everything was much later 
The important thing is the Snelgrove board has to go into a hive before they get the swarming urge or make queen cells 
They do need a nectar flow and be building up well with an extra broodbox added to give expansion room

Here's the notes for one of mine which I reared cells with
29/4/13 =3 frames brood (6 sides)
17/5/13 =5 frames brood
26/5/13 =6 frames brood put on second box drawn +foundation
03/6/13 =6 frames brood lots bees
06/6/13 = split ready for snelgrove (excluder and super in place)
08/6/13 = Snelgrove board on
14/6/13 = remove 1 queen cell put in frame with 16 grafts
17/6/13 = 14 acceptances (wait till ripe take for apideas)

30/6/13 bring frame of eggs/larvae from bottom to top let them raise a queen cell for themselves
27/7/13 top box 3 frames brood bottom box 7 frames brood 
07/9/13 top box 3 frames brood (bottom not noted)

The queenright method is easier to keep going for more attempts I think 
The first attempt gave 4 out of 12
then followed 5 out of 10 

I did try some grafts in other hives as well using the queen right method but not strictly by the book 
I don't know how many queens I raised in total but it was a fair few with 11 apideas and 4 Keilers full all the time
most went into replacing my chalkbrood or grumpy or old queens and distributed 7 or 8 
Next year I will keep better records and start earlier  :Smile: 

Ps you you don't need to use the little doors (if cell raising)
I have boards on almost all the hives so that gives me options
started season with 15 or so boxes of bees finished with 26 or thereabouts

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## Black Comb

Cloake board is supposed to be the best of both worlds.
I.e. 24 hours queenless to get the cells started, then balance of queen cell feeding under supersedure response to ensure they are well fed and have fully developed ovaries.

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## Pete L

I only use very very strong Q+ colonies, and just a couple of queen excluders (demaree) the top one framed on three sides, top and bottom entrance, both facing same way, no fancy boards of any type, these same colonies produce a succession of cells throughout the queen rearing season, and can produce sealed cells for removal to a incubator every six days, or left in a bit longer if desired.
Grafting is done with a small sable brush, usually done sat in the front of the truck cos it's raining, if fine, on the tailgate.
My average take on the grafts is 90%.

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## prakel

Another couple, this time from Latshaw Apiaries:

Queen Rearing

Queen Rearing Basics.

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## prakel

> Will be cloak board at next year's first attempts.


John Kefuss  apparently uses a slight variation of the method. Instead of the usual full box above the board he substitutes a 5 frame nuc (the board is obviously built to take the smaller box) to really shoe-horn the bees in.

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## mbc

> Cloake board is supposed to be the best of both worlds.
> I.e. 24 hours queenless to get the cells started, then balance of queen cell feeding under supersedure response to ensure they are well fed and have fully developed ovaries.


I've been using cloak boards for over ten years now (and I'm still learning how best to use them).  Of course, success has little to do with what equipment you choose to use and virtually everything to do with the state of the bees.
FWIW I now invariably start the first round of grafts in a starter box and transfer them, and the bees from the starter box, to the top box of a hive set up with a cloak board for finishing.  This boosts the colony just enough that they should be fine to start and finish subsequent grafts, but I find its very touchy feely getting the balance of bees right and often see a dip in success if I've taken my eye off the ball and let the cell raising colony get unbalanced, usually through lazyness not transfering young brood to the top box regularly enough.
Starter boxes are great for getting cells accepted, but arent worth bothering with for me once the cloak board colonies get up to speed.

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## mbc

> I only use very very strong Q+ colonies,


Horses for courses but my bees would start only a very few cells while q+
I'm also jealous of your 90%

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## mbc

> John Kefuss  apparently uses a slight variation of the method. Instead of the usual full box above the board he substitutes a 5 frame nuc (the board is obviously built to take the smaller box) to really shoe-horn the bees in.


I imagine this would be great, especially if the young bees are shaken off open brood to reduce to the five frames, it would only work for one or two rounds of cells without support colonies though.

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## prakel

Support Colonies: mbc, yes, I believe that is the way he runs the units but can't for the moment remember where the reference is, it may be in an old ABJ rather than on the net.

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## mbc

I turned this up while surfing, for anyone who wants to be humbled by beekeepers really knowing their onions when talking queen rearing.

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## beejazz

Is a cloake board something that has to be made?  I can't find one for sale at Thornes or Paynes or Maisie's.

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## prakel

Hi Bejazz, I think so, can't say that I've ever noticed one listed in the UK catalogues.

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## prakel

> I turned this up while surfing, for anyone who wants to be humbled by beekeepers really knowing their onions when talking queen rearing.


It's great to read his posts on Beesource, Vermont seems to be a hotbed of quality beekeepers, so much information freely given. I know that we've a few good people in this country but the ones who post tend to be far less open about the nuts and bolts -or their sarcastic nature's stop them from elaborating on what they see as (too) simple questions

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## prakel

A good cloak board overview here:

Sue Cobey's Cloake Board Method of Queen Rearing and Banking

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## beejazz

Thanks for the info, my woodworking skills have made me some usable crownboards and apiguard/feeder ekes, can't see that a cloake board is all that complicated, but first, I think, understand the method before making, otherwise I may find it won't work!

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## nemphlar

Yes interesting thanks, for those without big double boxes in May. Any thoughts on using the Ben harden box above the cloake board for smaller colonies

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## prakel

OK, I'll ask.... what is a Ben Harden box exactly?! (Totally serious question).

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## gavin

> OK, I'll ask.... what is a Ben Harden box exactly?! (Totally serious question).


I'm pretty sure he means the upper box of the 'Ben Harden Method', a name that embarrasses Ben as it is really the Wilkinson and Brown method, but that largely came from commercial practice in Royal jelly production in France.  Mike Brown talked about this to SBA members in Inverness this year.  The paper also mentions Doolittle as developing queen-right cell raising methods, not sure how similar his was to this.

The paper is here.  https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/bee...ment.cfm?id=36

The method is the workhorse of several on this list and is simple and fairly reliable if you note the comments on the state of the colony, feeding etc.  Sometimes it fails but so do all methods as far as I can see.  If it does, the colony is strong, and you've been feeding and nothing else is wrong, you could try isolating the queen.  Take her out to a nuc, slip in a solid board with a gap to create a new floor between the two boxes (a day after remaking the Demaree so that the young bees go up to the brood).  However I wouldn't do this with a weak colony, just try a stronger one.

No need for complex boards.  I guess Nemphlar was thinking of a Cloake board (floor based on a Q excluder with a divider that slides in) so that he could slide in a divider after that first day.  Sounds reasonable, but often not necessary.

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## prakel

Thanks. I've seen lots of mentions of the method but have been a little on the lazy side regards actually looking it up for myself.

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## The Drone Ranger

There seems to be a few different approaches some of them hoping to harness the emergency queen cell response and some the creating conditions of a failing queen so  superceding impulse
In some colonies or strains the sight of a larva in a vertical cell seems to be all the stimulus they need to get going
In another thread I mentioned the swarm I captured this year on old combs
I wanted to get them underway on wax building so added some foundation and did a bit of rearranging (after there was brood in a couple of frames
They went right on to make a couple of queen cells 
The nest wasn't split by foundation or anything just one drawn comb
I had a dilemma but harvested the two cells for elsewhere and left the original queen 
She went on to lay up a really fine broodnest and they drew out lots of new wax (lucky)
That left me thinking bees which have swarmed are in a trigger happy state where they build cells first and ask questions later  :Smile:

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## Jon

> Yes interesting thanks, for those without big double boxes in May. Any thoughts on using the Ben harden box above the cloake board for smaller colonies


John Summerville who is one of the best bee breeders in Ireland is a big fan of the cloake board. Not sure how it would work with smaller colonies.
This allows the cells to be started under queenless conditions and as soon as the cells are underway the board is manipulated to allow free movement of bees as in the Ben Harden/Wilkinson and Brown system.
He demonstrated this at one of the queenrearing events I was involved with but I was taking a separate group at the time so I missed his demo.

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## Jon

> That left me thinking bees which have swarmed are in a trigger happy state where they build cells first and ask questions later


It's pretty common for a swarm queen to be superseded relatively quickly as she is often getting long in the tooth if it is the prime swarm.

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## The Drone Ranger

> It's pretty common for a swarm queen to be superseded relatively quickly as she is often getting long in the tooth if it is the prime swarm.


yep I'll have to see if she makes it to spring

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## nemphlar

Apologies Prakel, I tend to assume that if I'm aware of something in the bee world it's common knowledge.
I found the Ben harden method on Dave Cushmans web site a few years ago, a standard brood is used,but with internals reduced to 5 frames, this sits above the queen excluder with basically a frame of food, brood a feeder and your grafts, for the hobby beekeeper small scale queen breeding without the loss of a stock.
I've only ever managed to averaged around 4 to 6 cells starting with around a brood and half, which is fine for my needs but 10 would be better.
Having followed the link on cloake board method I did wonder if a combination might tip the balance, Trying to breed queens from a weak stock would be waste of time, when I mentioned smaller hives it was meant in comparison to the massive double brood boxes seen in the link

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## beejazz

I get what you mean nemphlar, I'm thinking however there may be too small a space with the Ben Harden set up since the cloake board relies on bleeding off bees from the bottom colony by turning the hive 180 degrees so that bees fly from the bottom to the top entrance.  (I think!)  I tried with not much success the BH method this year, and will try a cloake board this year.

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## prakel

Hi nemphlar, my failing for never really reading up on the Harden method, unusual for me actually -I read almost as much about bees as I read about my other hobby.

On the subject of starter size, Joe Latshaw has some interesting thoughts on the subject here.

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## prakel

> a standard brood is used,but *with internals reduced to 5 frames*, this sits above the queen excluder with basically a frame of food, brood a feeder and your grafts, for the hobby beekeeper small scale queen breeding without the loss of a stock.
> I've only ever managed to averaged around 4 to 6 cells starting with around a brood and half, which is fine for my needs but 10 would be better.
> *Having followed the link on cloake board method I did wonder if a combination might tip the balance, Trying to breed queens from a weak stock would be waste of time, when I mentioned smaller hives it was meant in comparison to the massive double brood boxes seen in the link*


May be worth thinking about the Kefuss 'hybrid cloake board' mentioned in some of the earlier posts -you're thinking may, if I understand correctly, be heading in the same direction as Mr Kefuss'.

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## Rosie

You might like to consider my method.  It has worked well for me for 2 seasons.  Before this I used a similar system with success that depended on 2 queens in the hive.

P1000589.jpg


Below is a summary of the system timetable used in 2013.

·         Put queen excluders and 2 half brood boxes over a standard colony when the first supers would normally be fitted.
·         Wait for bees to start to putting nectar in the half boxes and mature drones are available.
·         day 1 - move one frame of open brood and one of pollen up into one of the top half boxes.  
·         day 2 - slip a queen cell frame between the brood and pollen frame in the half box and leave existing nectar bearing ones in the other two (outermost) positions.  The national half boxes hold 5 frames each.  Put a plastic film over the queen excluder and under the half box with the brood etc.  Leave the other half box on its own queen excluder and accessible to the bees below.  Above the two half boxes will be a crown board or supers.
·         day 3 - charge the queen cell frame with young larvae by either grafting or any other method.  (So far I have only tried the grafting method)
·         day 4 or 5 - remove the plastic film (leaving the queen excluder in place) so that the queen pheromones have normal access to the box again.

*Explanation*     When the brood frame is moved up into one of the half boxes it attracts nurses from below.  When the sheet is put under this box the queen pheromone is largely cut off but the bees can still enter from the top, either through the bee space under the crown board or via the super above.  If a super is present I like to fit it the wrong way round so that its frames are at 90o to the brood frames.  I suspect this aids the bees' passage through the system.  When the grafted larvae are introduced the bees accept them straight away and can use the nectar and pollen to produce royal jelly for them.  After a day or two the queen cells are well underway and on removal of the plastic film the bees continue to nurture the new queens.  I find that removing the film after two days is more reliable than removing it after one although very few, if any, are abandoned either way.     I usually start the process again 2 weeks from day one and use either of the half boxes, depending on where the best stores and most bees are.  It might be possible to start the second box before the first batch have been completed but I have not yet tried it.

Steve

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## nemphlar

Interesting link Prakel they all agree a box jammed full of bees is a must. Manipulating the Harden box to have bees crammed as a starter sounds to be worth a try. Just need to lash up a cloake board.
Bee jazz I'm not sure I fully understand the key elements of my success or failure using BH. I have drawer full of Swiss, Chinese and 00 brushes for grafting, still not comfortable with any, technique remains  poor, eyesight isn't improving either.

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## prakel

I think that comparative strength is far more important than actual size. The first season that I used the Lyson miniplus hives was a teething-problem-nightmare with half of them being allowed to get too congested and then putting up (very nice looking) swarm cells. The first couple got the jump on me much to the annoyance of fellow allotment holders. These weren't scrub cells by any stretch of the imagination but rather, well provisioned examples which I'd have been more than pleased to have started myself. This really did teach me that bee density is a very important aspect when it comes to getting good cells.

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## mbc

> I think that comparative strength is far more important than actual size. The first season that I used the Lyson miniplus hives was a teething-problem-nightmare with half of them being allowed to get too congested and then putting up (very nice looking) swarm cells. The first couple got the jump on me much to the annoyance of fellow allotment holders. These weren't scrub cells by any stretch of the imagination but rather, well provisioned examples which I'd have been more than pleased to have started myself. This really did teach me that bee density is a very important aspect when it comes to getting good cells.


Some research to back your thoughts up prakel:
From BREEDING SUPER BEES by Steve Tabor page 23
"The number of bees needed to raise a good queen.  
Liu (1975) was able to raise a queen on a diet of sufficient pollen, honey and water by using 400 mixed-age worker bees.  Colonies with average queens laying 1200 to 1500 eggs per day would have several thousands of bees of the proper age (4 to 10 days of age).  This means that great populations of bees in the queen-rearing colony are not necessary."

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## prakel

That's a book that's on my list for future purchase, I did have a copy some years back but it was lost with many others in a house move. Ron Brown *speculated* in his booklet on apidea management that it may be possible for an apidea to raise one or two good cells, but I don't remember the full discussion or it's exact context -whether he was referring to swarming or emergency.

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## mbc

Will Griffiths outlined his system of raising a queen in an apidea in an article in the WBKA mag some time ago.  I'm not convinced, for me a cell raiser should be at least double brood and very populous.  I suppose it depends on how many cells you're after.

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## Pete L

I have in the past, at the end of the season,after the main cell raisers have been packed up, but still maybe time for a mini nuc to raise and get a queen mated, done a single graft, in strong mini nucs, after any emergency cells they have raised have been destroyed, the one cell has had the full attention of plenty of young bees.

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## prakel

edit: reply to mbc, post 61.

I'm sort of on the fence here, I can't say that the idea of raising a cell in an apidea sits well with me but then, I don't have the experience of apidea management to make a genuine judgement call on what can be done with them, at the same time I don't wish to contradict my own belief that, assuming they're ready, the density of bees in the box, irrespective of how large it is, has an important bearing on how well the cells are started. Is there any chance at all of getting an online link to Will Griffiths' article? I think that it may be worth a read even if not entirely applicable to my own situation.

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## prakel

> I have in the past, at the end of the season,after the main cell raisers have been packed up, but still maybe time for a mini nuc to raise and get a queen mated, done a single graft, in strong mini nucs, after any emergency cells they have raised have been destroyed, the one cell has had the full attention of plenty of young bees.


Excellent information, nothing like practical application to find the truth of a thing.

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## fatshark

I've let Kieler mini-nucs raise a scrub queen between my own grafted cells. If you remove the mated queen they rapidly raise a small number of cells. I knock all but the best looking off and let them get on with it. It works, but the queens tend to be on the small side (though I acknowledge this isn't the same as being poor) and I've never had the confidence to use them other than a stop-gap measure to keep the mini-nuc populated for a later round of grafting. This would generally be in a 4-5 frame Kieler (single height), so probably a few more bees than an Apidea.

Like many other posters here I use the Ben Harden system. I've built fat dummies with a feeder for syrup and give them 100-200ml of syrup a day until the cells are capped (Dave Cushman has instructions for these*). I usually graft 10-12 at a time and get about 80% or so take like this. For nemphlar and beejazz it might be worth feeding them at the same time  the only time I've had the BH system fail is when there's no flow.

I've been meaning to try the method Rosie uses  looks good and has the attraction (like the BH system) of minimal modification to a working colony.

* as an aside I notice that Dave Cushman called these large dummies  I prefer 'fat dummies', much less politically correct  :Wink:

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## Rosie

> I've been meaning to try the method Rosie uses  looks good and has the attraction (like the BH system) of minimal modification to a working colony.


I would be pleased if you did because I am anxious to know if it works as well with other strains and districts.

Steve

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## beejazz

Re: "it might be worth feeding them at the same time..."  Well, what happened was, I had a frame feeder next to the dummy block and frame of pollen, and hundreds of bees managed to drown themselves.  I still don't understand how that happened, I had a piece of wood floating on the syrup.  Perhaps there were just too many bees attempting to access the feeder and it sank.

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