# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Will your bees attempt to swarm in May

## The Drone Ranger

Mine will 
still at least they are predicable
I blame the oil seed rape  :Smile:

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## Neils

No OSR round here this year, right now I'll be happy if it stops raining for a couple of days running.

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## fatshark

Swarm ... in May ... ?
Roflmao_a38c1f_741557.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Time will tell
I'm going to hide behind my Snelgrove boards till it's all over  :Smile: 


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## fatshark

Mine are about 7 frames of brood short of exploiting the OSR.
And it's cold and wet again.

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## Greengage

Still only 9 degrees here for the rest of week and we are stil having hail showers which want to be snow, I have made one of those snelgrove boards and looking forward to using it, or possibly  loosing the bees ????

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## madasafish

14C and warmest day of the year. One of my jumbo langs is on 7 frames of brood.. Horsley board - newly made- likely to be used in real life..

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## Feckless Drone

> Mine are about 7 frames of brood short of exploiting the OSR.
> And it's cold and wet again.


Aye! As Ivor Cutlor would probably say " life in a scottish apiary" and for DR - Patron saint of lost causes is St Jude. NA NA NA NA NA....

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## The Drone Ranger

Last year things were exactly the same cold and miserable
I was pretty convinced we would be off to a slow start 
I dawdled before having a look and put my boards on a couple of weeks behind schedule
Made a lot of extra work for myself
This year I'm determined to be a bit more careful and not make the assumption weather will hold them back
If there is OSR close by the population just explodes

Madasafish let's know how you get on with the Horsley board if you decide to use it 

Thanks Feckless for the heads up on Saint Jude  :Smile:

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## fatshark

> Madasafish let's know how you get on with the Horsley board if you decide to use it


Ditto. 
I built one and used it a couple of years ago. Not very successfully. I hope you do better.
In contrast I've done very well with simple split boards and am going to try a Snelgrove this year.

Aside ... much like the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon ... there's got to be an equivalent that defines the number of posts a thread accumulates before a Snelgrove Board is mentioned  :Wink:   On SBAi it's about 3.

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## The Drone Ranger

Apologies It's usually my fault

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## Jon

> Apologies It's usually my fault
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


You will surely be reincarnated as a 460mm2 piece of plywood with various flaps on it.

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## Calluna4u

There is no doubt that a high proportion of hives will need attention in May to stop swarming...even early May or even before the end of April.

I was out doing other things, but my team went feeding in Poly Langs near Edinburgh on Tuesday.......and came back with a report of only 8 dead from 250, and 60% strong enough to need an extra box as soon as the OSR opens, and about half of that 60% are completely wall to wall. I was on wooden hives that day and not ONE was at that power. Some not for away but as soon as the OSR gets going they will go like a rocket. End of May is almost 7 weeks away............only the poor ones will not have needed serious attention by then. In OUR situation that is.

Three years ago, when it was a fairly early spring, we had the first incoming swarms at our yard (we keep no bees there so not ours) in the last week of April.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u 
Glad it's going well
I had a quick look in a handful of polynucs today
3 frames of brood and one with 4
Last year I convinced myself the cold weather would slow them up and it didn't

Your polyhives will be the best bet for the rape then ?

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## Calluna4u

> Hi C4u 
> Glad it's going well
> I had a quick look in a handful of polynucs today
> 3 frames of brood and one with 4
> Last year I convinced myself the cold weather would slow them up and it didn't
> 
> Your polyhives will be the best bet for the rape then ?
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk



We are in the midst of moving them. However the poly aere way ahead of the average in wood up to now, but they had the power all through the winter. The reasons for the difference are more complex than wood v poly. The wooden hives I was at earlier in the thread were a ropey lot....but had been since last summer. They almost starved to death on the heather and their area did poorest, so they had less chance all round.

8 dead from 250 is a most atypical outcome though..............its an almost freakishly good wintering and not in any way to be seen as normal.

Its a very low loss year all round and we only have a small number of groups that are poor....but were all poor from last year.

However, OSR is a by product for us. If we get it all and well, but right from day 1 we are looking at the first half of July, to have the maximum number of good colonies for the heather as we start moving to the bell about 5th July. (state of flowering dictates).

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## Feckless Drone

> OSR is a by product for us.  (state of flowering dictates).


Hi C4U - that surprised me. I thought moving colonies to OSR sites would have been part of the cycle, for the crop and to support expansion. In terms of honey yield what % would you say is your output of OSR v heather? As was mentioned elsewhere, I agree that we really do not promote heather honey enough cf that manuka stuff. The stores down south and in Europe should all be waiting (desperately) for the first of the season.

But - I'm interested in your swarm control with those colony numbers. What is the strategy? Is it a vertical AS when Q-cells appear and raise the new Q for the heather? 

I've thought for swarm control this year I would try out moving the old Q into a weak but looked after nucleus colony (in poly or above a Snelgrove/split board) and keeping most of the bees to raise the new Q and hopefully get an early crop. On my sites - the timing of splits always seems to compromise the early honey yield.

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## Calluna4u

> Hi C4U - that surprised me. I thought moving colonies to OSR sites would have been part of the cycle, for the crop and to support expansion. In terms of honey yield what % would you say is your output of OSR v heather? As was mentioned elsewhere, I agree that we really do not promote heather honey enough cf that manuka stuff. The stores down south and in Europe should all be waiting (desperately) for the first of the season.
> 
> But - I'm interested in your swarm control with those colony numbers. What is the strategy? Is it a vertical AS when Q-cells appear and raise the new Q for the heather? 
> 
> I've thought for swarm control this year I would try out moving the old Q into a weak but looked after nucleus colony (in poly or above a Snelgrove/split board) and keeping most of the bees to raise the new Q and hopefully get an early crop. On my sites - the timing of splits always seems to compromise the early honey yield.


Last attempt at a reply before I give up....twp earlier plump replies were sent but vanished....maybe Gavin has banned me? lol....would be an act of kindness now we are very busy.

We move all our bees to the OSR. It is a crucially important build up crop for us, and we do a lot of replacement of losses and equalising of colonies on that crop. We do produce SOME honey from it but as I said before, its a by product in a way. Nice to have and put a bit in the kitty but it is of little overall importance against maximising the heather crop, so not worth hampering the colonies in their development in order to get a harvest.

The question about proportions of crop, well every year we hit, by tonnage, somewhere between 70 and 85% of our crop being heather. Add in the value of the crops relative to eachother and 85% of our honey derived  cash return comes from heather.
As you may already know we bottle none of this. All goes in drums to a stockholder and turns up as certain iconic brands and also keeps other domestic producers going when they don't have enough. Also do a few thousand pieces of cut comb heather each season for a few clients which also turns up in surprising places with surprising labels on it.

The stores in England are only partly waiting for our honey. What is not generally known, given the high profile status of Scottish in relation to heather honey is that we are not the dominant producing nation. As much is produced in England and some of the quality from there is superb, then there is Norway Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Poland, France, Spain and even New Zealand, all producing significant amounts of Calluna honey. Because of that it would be very difficult to get a special status for Scottish. Btw, I was told last week by my trader friend that he is currently having to pay £26000 per tonne for Manuka..........as against about £7500 for heather (both figures are for bulk in drums, semi filtered).

If you get to a situation where heather honey is an out of stock item you have made real trouble for yourself. You need to control stocks to ensure you keep your shelf space, or someone else will get in, and you might not get back. This applies equally well to the individual beekeeper in his favourite shop as it does to a honey type in a supermarket. Our stockholder rations it in times of shortage to avoid out of stocks with key customers, and in gluts will sell off bulk to Europe. He is content to sit on up to three years production if needed to be sure of seeing through times of dearth. 

Swarm control? well that's a real topic that I could write more than one chapter of a book on. There is no one system that fits all situations. Berar in mind we have this notional 5th July date in mind and try to both maximise the number of colonies in fighting trim for the bell at that time and minimise the interventions needed after that date as we cannot afford to be inspecting bees while migrating to the heather every day. What the orders of the day are is heavily influenced by several factors but most important of these is the calendar. How long do we have before going to the heather. Although not hard and fast we try to have the splitting ended by between the 15th and 25th of June....and after 15th its for remedial purposes only. We then let the queens off the lead by giving them a free run. Does it end swarming ? No, but it reduces it to level that is not economic to try to control.

However the basic early season splitting is similar to that you describe. First we do splits to refill empty hives. Same idea as most. Old queen and a little brood down in a new hive on the site of the old, excluder and supers added back on top of that. Then old hive with most of the nest and nearly all the nest bees is moved away to a new spot across the site. Process for getting a queen into that unit varies depending on the availability of mated queens from Jolantas unit, virgin queens from same, hatching cells from same, or finally cells  from good colonies on the days round. we tend to collect cells at site 1 for using at site 2....and so on...moving the cells on to the next group for use. The colonies own cells are perfectly acceptable too, if the strain is good.

Once the empty hives are used up we go on to vertical splitting as you described. The split need not go on top of its own mother colony. We mark any with problems with TRQ on the front (there can be many reasons) and these will have a split from another hive put on top. This also minimises the number of skyscrapers.....as you get about three weeks from splitting in a flow situation before you need to do it again....in dearths they can be very dour to rebuild after splitting and little judicious use of the syrup tank can be needed to get them going again.

This is all turned on its head if the queen is already fined down at all in preparation for swarming. Old queen down splits will tend to have a poor result from that system once swarm preps are advanced, and then you need to have an alternative strategy involving depriving the queen of all her FLYING bees so she them comes back into lay. Several options there. The big issue in this case is the old hive location. Lots of flying bees come back there in the mood for swarming action and can be quite a task to control and they will draw lots of fresh cells on any young brood you leave them with. Leave them no brood and they drift off into other colonies spreading swarm fever. Selecting a cell to leave in that situation can be awkward as they are not at all picky about selection of larva age and even sometimes gender. Some of the biggest juiciest looking cells are actually drones, and we work on the basis that if it looks too good to be true it probably is. It  can be best in that situation to kill ALL cells and come back in 7 to 9 days and select a god ONE to leave or knock them all down and ad a hatching stage cell from chosen stock.

Similar applies to the old nest taken away in conventional splitting, with the old queen in the new box on old site. If the queen cells you choose to leave in the split is going to take more than 2 or so days to hatch you can find that even in such a short time they will have started emergency cells and there will already be sufficient new flying bees before the first of the new cells hatches for the split to throw a caste or castes. Its not a disaster but its a pain, both to the neighbours and the loss of the selected queen, meaning you end up with an unselected emergency cell derived queen in the hive. These splits can all be boosted once established by superfluous brood from the mother half which will ease off her renewing swarming inclinations.

Then we get to the second half of June, and all bets are off. Any colony with 6 bars of brood or more gets double deeped and the excluder taken away. By heather time we still have quite a mix of hive sizes depending on last splitting date. Aim is to have 80% double deep or better for the shifting day. The splits and mothers are marked before loading to make sure the correct ones find eachother at destination. Some time during the heather period we go round with a case of air freshener, lift the top half off, spray the freshener on the the top bars of the bottom hive and the bottom bars of the top hive, and simply place them back together and let nature sort out which is the best queen. There is no fighting as they have unity before the smell has gone. Within minutes the bees arriving where the top entrance once was find the lower entrance and start streaming down and in. Initially at least its important NOT to leave them a top entrance as this can encourage them to remain as essentially a two queen unit with separate nests which is a real mess to sort out in September. If the split (or on odd occasions the part that had the old queen) are queenless, or drone layer, or just failed to lay, that part is just shaken out and its box used to add to another colony. Virgins at the heather only get mated on a lowish percentage of occasions, so not worth persisting with. That's in an ideal world...we often don't have time to do some of this and virgins can be left until the seasons end and dealt with then, so those that WILL mate at the heather often get the chance.

Realise this is WAY too long............

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## Calluna4u

1. Forgot to add in Ireland and Wales. They are also heather producers albeit at smaller tonnages.

2. Our low percentage of blossom honey is actually in part a reflection of our management.

However, OSR is being bred for ever earlier flowering dates, and ever shorter flowering periods. even without many modern varieties being poor nectar yielders, we have lost what were the key producing weeks, the later ones, that gave the harvest once the colonies had built up a bit. Its now almost finished in some years (especially the nice looking early fields) just at the time the bees want to get going in the supers. Some of my southern friends have a two to three week window now on oSR, and it can be finished by the start of May. we used to get 6 weeks but even up here now its a good bit less than that.

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## nemphlar

Not long at all, really interesting and informative, thanks for your time and efforts

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## The Drone Ranger

Yes thanks C4u 
It's easy when it's cold to underestimate what stage they are at
I looked in one poly nuc two days ago 4 frames of brood and 1 plus half food
So that's likely to be early swarming and run out of food 
Certainly will need watching closely
If you were sitting at home thinking "it's too cold there's plenty time" then that could be a mistake


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## Calluna4u

> So that's likely to be early swarming and run out of food 
> Certainly will need watching closely


Good warning many would be wise to heed.

Moved a load of nucs onto OSR near Edinburgh yesterday and a few were dangerously light. Checked a further group today and ditto.....even to the point of one having no food left at all and being all slow. Tomorrow all nucs will have to be fed.

Many were to be prepared for customers this week, and should probably now be delayed until the situation is stabilised.

With the next week remaining cool, and the last week of the month seemingly going to be really cold with northerlies, relying on early flows to feed the bees is not going to be safe.

PITA for most....this cold start will likely cost me about 20K of feed bill.........bummer.

At least the spectre of any really early swarms is off the list of worries.

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## Jon

seeing the same thing with mine. About 4-5 litres of syrup will do them the world of good at this stage.

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## Feckless Drone

> Realise this is WAY too long............


Not at all C4U - its all interesting, and informative (corrects some of my misconceptions - I still have many more to deal with though). What comes across is a combination of planning and flexibility guided by knowledge and experience. Also helps us smaller scale keepers appreciate the organisation, scale and decision making involved at your level with the complications that bees and the weather throw our way. By way of analogy - you have a D-day landing every year for the heather - for me it feels like the charge of the light brigade every weekend.

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## Calluna4u

lol.....feels more like the Keystone Cops here a lot of the time! If you think you are in control then for sure you are missing something.

Sometimes decisions come down to daft things like.....What have we got left on the truck?

Run out of splitting boards?  You can find a hive top feeder pressed into service as a temporary crown board in the wooden hives, and crown boards as floors. Just keep enough notes to remember to bring enough of the right stuff next time.

There are daily events that 'bring forth intemperate language'.................any aura of calm and control is entirely accidental.

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## Feckless Drone

A couple of weeks ago - when we had that good spell I opened up a couple of colonies on a sheltered site, peeked under the crown board of some others and hefted. All colonies have wintered really well with lots of bees; there were even two that looked ready for a super or a second brood box which I have never seen so early. But, they were all light on stores with  fondant gone from some. I thought I was being overly conservative putting on more fondant, and some crystallised super frames under the brood nest but I simply thought this would be helpful to reduce stress on the colonies. These bees were very well feed last autumn, some boosted by the heather, and ivy that went on and on. The good autumn and mild winter has no doubt helped keep numbers up but this has used up stores more than I have seen before. The weather will slow them down a bit but I am confident mine will be making preparations to swarm in May.

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## Feckless Drone

[QUOTE=Calluna4u;35514]lol.....feels more like the Keystone Cops here a lot of the time! 
[QUOTE]
 Oh, that makes me feel a bit better.

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## nemphlar

Thought I'd better sneak a look tonight after previous discussions, not sure how they managed it but 4 are full off bees and seem to have brood on 7 out of 11 frames 3 others that I had thought looked a little quieter  had bees on all frames and more like 4 out 11 with sealed brood,might be a little previous but 5 of them got a QE and a super, snelgrove boards might be on before May.
If the weather stays for tomorrow the 5 hives and 2 nucs in the back garden will be checked tomorrow, reasons to be cheerful
4 off similar to above with 1  just 5 frames of bees an 2 of brood which had thought must be a goner
Re housed a nuc with a frame feeder and found the other empty, had foolishly left it between 2 full hives probably deserted for a better option next door

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## fatshark

My originally prediction that my colonies might not be swarming in May is still looking accurate after finding three DLQ's in the last couple of days.

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## nemphlar

DLQ's apart it, it does appear from C4's results that those with viable queens are going quite well. Although it's been pretty miserable we haven't seen the extremes of previous years

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## Emma

Swarming in May? Oh, yes. Without a shadow of a doubt. Yesterday I suddenly realised I was too hot in sandals and a jumper. The air was loud with bees and I'd seen the first signs of drone cappings on the varroa boards the day before. I had time to go through 6 out of 7 brood boxes. No DLQs, a big range of nest sizes, several with drone brood. Just two on 5 or more frames of brood, and one of those had drones flying. A 2013 queen and she's always been a swarmy little cat. I've had less swarmy daughters & grand-daughters from her, though, & her bees draw lovely comb, so I've kept her. This time her colony overwintered with a full box of stores, & they're very frugal, so they've got resources to play with, & they're using them to play their usual game. I've put an empty super over their heads, but they'll be drawing queen cells within a month, for almost certain. Game on!

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## fatshark

Time to prepare my bait hives I think  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

If your bees were going to swarm at the end of May then they will have started queen cells even as early as the first week of May
When its cold and miserable I'm inclined to underestimate their progress  
So if the nuc with 4 frames of brood wasn't spotted they would possibly starve as mentioned
But equally once that brood hatches and the queen has laid in the cells they will be overcrowded and once they think "swarm" they would be off

We all know this its not news 
But I for one sometimes don't act on it
That's not unfixable but it does make a lot of extra work

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## Emma

> Time to prepare my bait hives I think


Hah! - good luck with that: my first one is already up & ready, in the place all the scout bees liked so much last year  :Smile:  Collected 2 swarms from there during the season (only one was mine) and a lot of information about who was planning what.

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## Emma

> If your bees were going to swarm at the end of May then they will have started queen cells even as early as the first week of May
> When its cold and miserable I'm inclined to underestimate their progress  
> So if the nuc with 4 frames of brood wasn't spotted they would possibly starve as mentioned


Yes- I should've said, although one of mine is rich & already got emerged drones, one or two others would be starving if I hadn't given them fondant. It seems there's a real range as to whether they're living within their means or not. One has been chucking so many eggs onto the varroa board I was thinking she must have become a drone layer, but instead I found 2 nice frames of worker brood & plenty of stores with space being cleared for a series of brood arcs. Very methodical, very conservative: I'm really looking forward to seeing what they do next.

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## alancooper

[QUOTE=Emma;35537]Swarming in May?  This time her colony overwintered with a full box of stores, & they're very frugal I've put an empty super over their heads, but they'll be drawing queen cells within a month, for almost certain./QUOTE]
As with you Emma - one of my colonies, compared with my others, seems frugal - and two days ago I found (surprisingly) four sealed queen cells (just over a week after my first inspection of the year). Queeny is a local dark 2014 girl from the west with 4 frames brood. Game on indeed.
Alan.

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## Emma

Surprising indeed, Alan. Combined with Kate's tales of a virgin queen emerging already, on another thread, this could be shaping up to be a very weird spring. I have been wondering whether she's gradually turning drone layer - in that case all the dropped eggs could be unfertilised ones rejected by the bees. They are quite fussy... last summer I tried balsawood strips in my foundationless frames. It worked fine in other colonies, but the bees in that one set on the balsawood like a colony of wasps (making a sound like hundreds of wasps scratching for nest material all at once), and reduced the strips to neat little rows of fibre. Expressive little darlings (...that possibly isn't what I said at the time!)
Weather forecast is saying "don't even think about going in" at the moment, so it'll have to remain a mystery for now. Thanks for the heads up on what yours are up to.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Sorry - I removed my post as I posted to the wrong thread.
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

The curse of fine weather
One of my most backward polynucs was one frame of brood  on a Paynes double box
I say_ was_ because they had loads of frames of sealed stores and not enough bees for that hive volume
I haven't been troubled by robbers in April before but that's what happened yesterday
If it had stayed cold (its going back to that anyway) or they had less space and less food, they would have been safe

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## Neils

A few weeks on. If my one colony is thinking about swarming at the end of the month I'll be amazed. The OSR is now out, but dramatically reduced in quantity over previous years. The dandelions still aren't out in the tropical highlands of the mendips and I'm having to feed them at the moment.

I don't know whether it's just weather, an effect of personal change in geography as well as for the bees, but it feels like a bloody struggle at the moment.

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## The Drone Ranger

Its a strange weather pattern Neils worse even than last year
You will easily stay on top of one hive so you are safe 

Even in the cold they can be building up nicely as long as the stores don't run out

When you get your new bees this year you will have to learn their patterns
The good thing is that is fun and they might be a really great strain with luck

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## Feckless Drone

Last weekend - in very quick inspections of 4 colonies (and dismantling of another one that died out - starvation, my fault) saw one dead Q, three lovely living Qs, but disappointed to not see the fourth in a very strong colony. Checked notes later - of course i did not see her, she's not marked. That's got to be my first task come next inspection day.

The bees are hanging on and we've got to do the same. The magical part of beekeeping's been a bit on hold so far but I think it starts up again this weekend.

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## fatshark

The magical part of beekeeping still feels a long way off ...

160429-01.jpg
29th April 2016

... my views on this topic remain broadly similar to those expressed in my original post.

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## nemphlar

Went to check the food situation and managed to get the Snelgrove board (mesh open till they reorganise) on one of the hives before the rain came back on, queen luckily was on the second frame a I checked, every frame had some sealed brood, had to move the queen with the least I could find. They were surprisingly forgiving with rain coming on.
They do seem to be racing on regardless of the weather, didn't see too many drones unfortunately

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## gavin

One of last year's beginners has been very attentive and also has his bees in a sheltered spot, allowing inspections when mine were still needing peace and quiet.  They are currently in two brood boxes and a super, plenty of space, but had at least one QC early stage developing (with larva) on Saturday 30 April.  AS being performed today I hope.

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## The Drone Ranger

Its a nuisance Gavin because you dont want to depend on getting a queen mated early 
No queens in your miniplus you could just pinch for the split ?

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## fatshark

Or do a split vertically and then if the top half fails to get a mated queen you can always unite back down.

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## gavin

No spare queens here, I only tried to overwinter 2 Minipluses and they both failed.  

Tony managed to do his artificial swarm today, top marks to him.  There were several part-developed queen cells.  Found the queen with a struggle.  It will be perhaps 10 days until the first queen emerges then another 6 before she flies for mating.  Mating 19 May to 4 June and probably beyond if necessary.  Should be fine.  He's done a side to side split but could still reunite on one spot if necessary.

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## greengumbo

I moved bees to OSR a few days ago and went to check them today. Plenty happening with a few new queen cups and a big frame of drone in my strongest polys. Took the drone out for the chooks and replaced with drawn worker comb - should knock down any early varroa.

OSR about 5% open and forecast good. Will super them in the next few days. Do most of you do pro-active supering....ie stick 2-3 supers on and leave them be ? Local guy does it this way whereas I tend to just add them as and when.

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## Neils

We do now have OSR, it's been out just over a week. Dandelions have now also appeared!  My surviving nuc needed a good feed last week and if it swarms in May I will have to assume that it's May 2017. I didn't think it was strong back in January, but it isn't giving up just yet though I did catch it in the nick of time last week starting to starve.

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## The Drone Ranger

I am putting the Snelgrove boards on this weekend
(For better or worse)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4k...w?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4k...w?usp=drivesdk

Screenshot-49.jpg

This is the front and rear of the cards I use 
The rear let's you keep track of the Snelgrove doors
It might help when there are a lot to keep an eye on

The door numbers are when standing at the rear of the hive
So it's 
1 above 2 on your right
3 above 4 on your left
5 above 6 rear centre

Also method 2 should say move the Queen and a frame of brood to the bottom not just a frame of brood
Best of luck with it  :Smile: 


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## Greengage

going to give this a go see what happens. tks for card info.

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## fatshark

Good stuff DR
What sort of strength are the colonies when you add the board (for Method 1)? Do you judge when it's time by frames of brood, queen cups, presence of drones or that - for once - the day is warm enough to open the box?

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## nemphlar

I'm following method 1, in this weather it can only be roughly by tonight all the hives that have a full brood box of bees and ~40% plus of brood are split with open boards on, spotted more drones wandering around no idea what age they might be.
Splitting one of the hives I spotted an unmarked queen and put the frame in the spare box, next frame had a recently hatched queen cell, went back through the brood box and found another unmarked queen with an egg still attached I'm assuming she's the mother of the brood and eggs, so put her in the top section and left the possible virgin in the bottom in case she has already orientated. I checked this hive in September and they had a good going marked queen, no idea how they managed to have a functioning queen in the interim and still try a supercedure with a queen that is laying well

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## Greengage

Checked mine yesterday, I also have supercedure capped cell, some drones wandering about, but cannot locate queen there are brood all stages and some eggs, So left cell and will wait to see what hapens, Old queen is clipped and marked, had two people looking so maybe she died. I dont know maybe she is still there but we just could not see her.

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## madasafish

One swarm this am  - checked last week and missed all QCs ... Managed to rehive asap..

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## gwizzie

Hive in my back garden swarmed last night about 4 O'clock..... went through the hive yesterday about 2 hrs before that and they have 4 queen cells and one was capped... 

BUT I could here a queen piping.. is that a new queen or the old one looking for the queens in the queen cells ????? 

I did manage to get the swarm  :Big Grin:  so All good there!!

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## Calum

our bee specialist pointed out you can tell if they will swarm according to the drone frame.
If they build it out as a single "tounge" they are happy and dont intend to swarm. 
If they build a couple of tounges they are unhappy and will swarm. 

Also your experience??

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## The Drone Ranger

> Good stuff DR
> What sort of strength are the colonies when you add the board (for Method 1)? Do you judge when it's time by frames of brood, queen cups, presence of drones or that - for once - the day is warm enough to open the box?


I have them on double broodboxes for the most part

When they are producing drone brood and the rape has started seems a good indicator
Saw the first swallows the other day could be a clue  :Smile: 

I know from past experience by the end of may they will swarm 
So I can't wait any longer than this week to put the boards in or they will start queen cells

Once they get that idea they are difficult to control with a board 
Method 2 is an attempt to do that but it might be better to remove the queen to a separate nuc and let nature take its course if you find queen cells started

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## The Drone Ranger

Just to round up I wonder if the forum posters bees did attempt to swarm in May
I haven't been up any trees so far so at least I have delayed them  :Smile: 
Tempting fate ?

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## fatshark

No swarms from here ... though I was forced to take some preemptive action in the final week of May. So, the accurate answer to the Q was _"no, they did not attempt to swarm"_ ... but they certainly thought about it  :Wink: 

Things currently looking good and I'm hoping for more of this settled weather to get some queens mated. I've even got some honey ... but not enough yet to justify firing the extractor up ... I'll collect a few more supers and stack them on my honey warming cabinet to delay crystallisation (though I'm not certain they have access to OSR). Cleaning the extractor is a job I don't enjoy ...

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## Feckless Drone

Yes, most of my colonies made swarming preparations that required to be dealt with and I should have Qs on mating flights during the last week. Mistimed my intervention, or missed more advanced Q cells in two colonies, by two days, and lost clipped Qs. One colony started with just two Q-cells early on which looked more supercedure than swarming but I still intervened. I did catch a lovely prime swarm at my apiary, not up a tree but in a goose pen, on a bush at waist height - 16 inquisitive, thankfully calm observers. I've never seen a swarm so big, I had to do two trips with a Paynes nuc to then completely fill up a brood box with foundation. I can only surmise someone keeping a double brood box (which I don't) and a very strong colony lost this one. OSR on tap and after a few days the foundation was drawn without any feeding, Q laying well and I had to put a super on. Q was easy to spot, lifted the crown board and there she was on top of a frame, marked blue and since she had a full set of wings definitely not mine! Well, she is now.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi fatshark
I just fill extractor with lukewarm water and leave it a while 
That gets the worst off Mrs DR usually takes over at this point so I'm not sure what happens next :Smile: 



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## The Drone Ranger

You have been lucky FD that sounds like a good colony to have captured 

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## fatshark

160603-11.jpg

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## Neils

Mine may not be thinking of swarming, but someone else's did. I know swarmy bees and all that, but some bees are better than no bees I think.  We're now back up to three colonies and if the weather stays on our side we may even get some honey yet this year!

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## The Drone Ranger

The oil seed rape is ending now so the queen cell checks need stepping up  :Smile: 

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## The Drone Ranger

If you have been Snelgrove boarding and have given plenty room below the board to avoid queen cells you might want to take the old queen plus the couple of old frames in the bottom out to a nuc 
Then the get the broodboxes back together with the new queen
Get your honey in supers off at same time
Otherwise the old queen can take off with a humongous  swarm and your honey  :Smile:  

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## Black Comb

Good tip Dr.
I tried a modified Snelgrove this year. Reverse bottom box, leave Q with half brood in there. Top box entrance at front, half brood and all flying bees. Supers on top. It worked and I got 3 usable cells. 1 into nuc, left one in top box and also made up an Apidea. bottom box may be depleted of stores so keep an eye on it. All 3 queens got mated. But, I use jumbo Langstroth and to keep checking bottom box means lots of lifting. Also, btm box with old queen now racing away, nearly full box of brood. I used this as swarm prevention as the Q was laying like mad. Also, top box was chock full of stores, they even seemed to take it down from the supers. I won't use it again, original Snelgrove seems easier to me.
I've had a few others throw up Q cells, nuc method suits me best.

No OSR near me.

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## Bridget

Not in May but in June.  It turns out they were not from the colony I expected but a large one on double brood.  Caught but only a couple of frames.  Pretty certain it was not a caste as that hive still busy and with four/five day larvae so that ties in with the swarm going on Monday in that v warm humid weather with a big downpour a few hours later.  Saturday there were a lot of bees around that hive, not a swarm but more like a returning queen from a mating flight, fingers crossed. So why the small swarm from a big colony? 
The swarm is doing well with lots of eggs laid.  This is a queen in her first full summer and came on well after winter.

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## Emma

Yes. They did prepare to swarm in May. Exactly as they'd indicated. The one with the early drones went first, milkies by 16 May. Egged queen cups in all the others the same week.
Perfect timing to catch some great queen-mating weather - and to demand my time at my busiest, most impossible time for work, and to threaten casts every time I travelled for a meeting, unless I managed to win a quite challenging game of hunt-the-hidden-queen-cells.
Talent. Sheer talent. I love their timing... in an exhausted kind of way.
I managed to keep the colonies mostly together, though, as planned, and they've gone and clogged up the hives with this pesky sticky stuff which makes the boxes far too heavy to lift. Really annoying. Does anyone have a spare honey press?!  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

About time to put in Snelgrove boards now 
Has to be before you find charged queen cells
Queen downstairs with one frame of unsealed brood/larva rest empty drawn combs and foundation
Then put on Queen excluder
Put supers on top of excluder
Snelgrove board on top of supers
All the rest of brood in another broodbox above the board
Open an upper entrance at one side
Open and close doors as per schedule (about 6 days between changes)
The rear upper is where the new queen will fly out for mating
Pin a margarine tub lid or something under the entrance as a marker and landing board
Watch the top box doesn't starve because there will not be many field bees bringing in supplies

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## Greengage

I did everything you said, had all the gear standing there ready to go today they must have heard me coming because eruption up and away the went, could you believe it!!! anyway caught them and have them stored away for transporting to different apiary this evening, you couldn't make this stuff up.

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## The Drone Ranger

Yes GG that's typical 
Still if they had queen cells they would have swarmed even if you got a board on 
Hey Ho !! That's life I suppose
Best just let the queenless half raise their own queen 
I have found that if you try introducing a queen at this time of year they find a way of raising a sneaky queen cell and bumping her off
Bad enough if the queen comes from your own mininuc but disasterous if it's a Lasi hygenic or AMM beauty that comes with a mortgage 

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## greengumbo

Mine will. Pre-emptive swarm control next week I think for the majority.

One on a great foraging site had charged queen cells this morning.....gulp.

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## lindsay s

Mine won’t.  Not much progress in the last two weeks, a cold spell has held them back. My strongest colony has 4½ frames of brood and the rest have 3 to 4. Only one good foraging day here last week, although the weather has now improved. The hives have plenty of stores but could do with more bees to look after their expanding brood nests.

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## Calum

Got a tipp from a local "pro" to pull out two frames of open brood and put them in the super as soon as the first queen cup is seen, and replace it with frames of foundation. 
Should draw bees out from the core of the brood and give the workes something to do. 

Seems to have worked very well so far. But Starting to build nucs this weekend, so that will stop any ideas of swarming... I hope.

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## Poly Hive

Put the queen and some brood in a nuc and let the main hive get on with it. And or, pop some brood combs in another nuc with some shakes of bees and again let them get on with it. So one laying queen in reserve and two bites at getting virgins mated, and then unite for heather.  :Smile:  Swarming? What swarming??

PH

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## greengumbo

> Put the queen and some brood in a nuc and let the main hive get on with it. And or, pop some brood combs in another nuc with some shakes of bees and again let them get on with it. So one laying queen in reserve and two bites at getting virgins mated, and then unite for heather.  Swarming? What swarming??
> 
> PH


Nice  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

All quiet on the AMM front 
They don't swarm (ever)
But I thought would be reading about hundreds of AI AMM queens flying from banks of mini nucs by now
I have about 30 mini nucs on the go fingers crossed on weather all hybrids of course
Rape ending so the drive to swarm will be stronger

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## Jimbo

DR you may be looking in the wrong place
Try looking at the pretty pictures on the SNHBS Facebook page
Most Amm don't live in OSR areas so slower to get going


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## The Drone Ranger

> DR you may be looking in the wrong place
> Try looking at the pretty pictures on the SNHBS Facebook page
> Most Amm don't live in OSR areas so slower to get going
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks Jumbo 
I was wondering where everyone on here had gone 

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks Jumbo 
> I was wondering where everyone on here had gone 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


I'm still wondering where everyone has gone 
I haven't posted much either so if everybody is the same that might be the reason

When would AMM be ready to swarm normally ?
In most of the areas on SNHBS page I guess never  :Smile: 

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## Poly Hive

About now.

PH

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## greengumbo

> About now.
> 
> PH


Just witnessed a huge swarm happening in front of my eyes. 

Brilliant to hear, see and catch  :Smile:

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## fatshark

Just missed one  :Frown:

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## lindsay s

> When would AMM be ready to swarm normally ?


Late June up here, but it could be earlier this year. I still have a few colonies awaiting their first super. I only lost one last year but they were determined to swarm anyway. In the first few weeks of July last year it was swarmtastic up here. Luckily none of them were mine.

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## The Drone Ranger

Once the rape comes to an end the bees really get into swarm mode
If you had a board on for the last month then you can take the old queen out to a nuc
Take your supers of 🍯 honey spin them out 
Put the young queen in the bottom with the new wax
Get rid of some old frames from the top and take the board out
Then it's back to watching like a hawk 

I thought you would be less likely to see swarming  so far North Lindsey 
Shows how little I know  :Smile: 

I watched Countryfile Spring diaries this morning 
About 5 mins from the end the new beekeeper had lost a swarm and spots varroa on the bees left
Then the  bees turned nasty during the inspection and they had to retreat to the car
The joys of beginning beekeeping 
He did have some honey though so not a total wash out



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## The Drone Ranger

> Just missed one


If it was 40ft up a conifer you probably didn't miss much fatshark

Usually I find low down swarms on a post or bush will  have a new queen and will stay put when hived
Ones that enter a bait hive will stay put
Ones at the top of tall trees where you risk life and limb just fly off even if you get them 




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## fatshark

Mid-chest height in a sycamore sapling. Easy peasy. But gone by the time I extracted myself from back-to-back meetings. The only thing that remained were two tiny crescents of wax, no more than 1 mm long, and two or three lost bees. 

I have a strong suspicion this was a cast from one of my splits. All the mated Q's were present and correct. I suspect I left an overly-strong box below the board. My fault ... I should have twiddled with a few more of those little doors ... or used a board with more than one in the first place. 

I can't see 40 feet up into a conifer ... or at least I never seem to be able to see swarms in dodgy locations that others are demanding I remove.

_Surely that's a clump of ivy?_

_Nope ... not a chance ... it's a crows nest_

_Asian hornet ... not honey bees ... definitely not bees ... very distinctive them Asian hornets_

_Bombus hypnorum ... very good for pollinating your dahlia/blackberry/rhubarb/carrot/prize onions ..._

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## The Drone Ranger

> Mid-chest height in a sycamore sapling. Easy peasy. But gone by the time I extracted myself from back-to-back meetings. The only thing that remained were two tiny crescents of wax, no more than 1 mm long, and two or three lost bees. 
> 
> I have a strong suspicion this was a cast from one of my splits. All the mated Q's were present and correct. I suspect I left an overly-strong box below the board. My fault ... I should have twiddled with a few more of those little doors ... or used a board with more than one in the first place. 
> 
> I can't see 40 feet up into a conifer ... or at least I never seem to be able to see swarms in dodgy locations that others are demanding I remove.
> 
> _Surely that's a clump of ivy?_
> 
> _Nope ... not a chance ... it's a crows nest_
> ...


Bad luck you'll have to get Mrs fatshark a beesuit and a deputy sheriff badge

I was up a conifer yesterday afternoon 
The hives that had chalkbrood I didn't use boards for 
I relied on regular (ahem!) Inspections and bait hives with old comb
They prefer the conifer 
Never again Grrr👿

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## fatshark

My bees can't tell that it's no longer May ...

However, by careful selection over several years (I only hive the ones I can reach  :Wink:  ) mine now never choose a site above shoulder-height ... just got one into a skep from a small, dead willow tree.

I can't really claim credit for them also choosing a dead tree, but it did enable me to remove a few awkward branches and twigs before dropping them into the skep. Distant thunder and rain threatening so it's probably time I hustled them into a hive.

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## fatshark

Dumped the contents of the skep into a large nuc. There was only one solitary corpse on the sheet underneath the skep.
IMG_0952.JPG
Looks like one of your Amm queens DR ... and just as dead.

I'm assuming this was a swarm with 2 queens from an overcrowded split ...

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## The Drone Ranger

Least that one wasn't £35 
Slip it into a cage with 9 or 10 angry bees and sell it  :Smile: 

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## lindsay s

> I thought you would be less likely to see swarming  so far North Lindsey 
> Shows how little I know


Swarm free bees would be the icing on the cake to go with our varroa free status D. R. But unfortunately our bees are just the same as everyone elses. Early July seems to be the peak time for swarms up here, the inexperienced beekeepers and those who dont practice swarm management suffer the most. Its not unusual for us to have 8 to 10 days of cool damp weather in a row and then when the sun comes out the bees are off like a rocket. It can even catch out the more careful beekeepers. The biggest villains of the lot are the leave alone beekeepers. I spoke to one this week who admitted they had only checked their bees once this spring!!! 
Here are photos of a prime swarm in July 2015 at a friends apiary. I popped by to see if she was there and came across them, it turned out they werent even her bees. Although the bees went into the nuc I was trying to fit a quart into a pint pot and they scarpered a few hours later. They were caught on a nearby bush the next day.

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## fatshark

> Least that one wasn't £35 
> Slip it into a cage with 9 or 10 angry bees and sell it


I left her on the nuc roof and there was a storm of biblical proportions later so she got a bit damp(er).
You can have her for a tenner  ... PM me your address  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

That was some swarm Lindsey it was a bit ambitious putting them in a nuc
They look very black ready to export I would say  :Smile: 
It must be great with no varroa they are a pain

Once bitten twice shy fatshark 
I was putting a few new queens in mininucs today 
One didn't make it because she hatched early 
So I took a side by side picture
The one on the left cost £35 is mated and sold as AMM
The one on the right cost nothing is a just hatched virgin and is grafted from my own stock
They are both dead and gone 
You might be asking why I bought the left hand one
I'm wondering that myself
I have had a possibly false impression that people selling queens are more competent 
I am pretty sure now that is not the case (puppy farm springs to mind)
,




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## fatshark

Here's one of mine ... a local mongrel but reassuringly darker than your recent purchase.
170506-04.jpg

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## mbc

I'm baffled by the concept of importing amm queens so that one has "native" bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi mbc they won't be native
Or local 
They would be amm
But in this case they wouldn't be any of those things 
In fact in this case they wouldn't even be alive
I bought that one instead of say a Carnie or buckfast to see what was on offer as Amm
I wouldn't want to mess up the local gene pool  :Smile: 
I hope people reading this will see what arrived and think twice

In the fairly recent  past hundreds of Amm queens were imported from France every year and delivered all over Scotland  :Smile: 
They weren't native either





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## The Drone Ranger

> Here's one of mine ... a local mongrel but reassuringly darker than your recent purchase.
> 170506-04.jpg


Nice queen fatshark I like the look of that one
I would be very happy with her

At the end of the day we can't all be grafting from Collonsay bees
It's a pointless excercise in most locations

The notion that an insect is worth £35 verges on ludicrous
Then I read people thinking their open mated Amm should be worth £50 or more (super ludicrous)
People selling instrumental inseminated queens at £110 (mental)

What's more these beasts are totally unproven other than laying up a mininuc 
There's a lot of hype and not much substance
Queens are so easy to produce you need to be mad to buy them at those kind prices


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## Mellifera Crofter

> Nice queen fatshark I like the look of that one
> I would be very happy with her
>  ...


... and a nice photograph.  I find it so tricky to photograph and manipulate a frame at the same time, let alone getting the queen to pose for you.
Kitta

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## fatshark

$_32.jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

Oh!  :Smile:   Well, compared to DR's sad-looking yellow Amm, yours was a very fine-looking queen, Fatshark.

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## fatshark

Not Superglue  :Wink:  ... fast shutter speed and a willingness to sort through dozens of rubbish images to find one half-decent one. I've got (or had, they've been deleted now) any number of her out of focus, walking around the edge of the frame, rear view only or any combination of the three.

The other secret is a large image size so you can crop very hard. If you go for macro shots your depth of field and (as you say) ability to manipulate the frame at the same time makes it very hard work. If your original image is 20+ megapixels you can photograph big chunks of the frame, avoid getting in your own light, use a narrower aperture to get better depth of field etc.

Some of the new high-end small cameras now take 4k video in which they change the focal plane. That way you take a small burst of video and sort through it for exactly the shot with everything you want in focus. Incredible technology (but this one was taken old-skool).

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## Mellifera Crofter

I'm so gullible.  No wonder your queen looked so good.  I think it's time I get a new camera to help out.  Thanks for the advice!
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

Is Donald Trump related to Mussolini


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## The Drone Ranger

Weather bad just steady drizzle here lucky it's getting better by Thursday when next lot of cages get put on Queencells



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## fatshark

Having just completed some inspections I thought it was time to resurrect this thread. My strongest boxes are too busy collecting nectar to do anything more than pull a few 'play cups' at the moment with wall to wall brood and supers filling nicely. However, another week like this and it's all going to kick off  ... (famous last words, what's the betting they'll all clear off this week sometime?).

And while we're waiting ... how's this for an apiary with a stunning view? 

180518-182.jpg

On a clearer day your can see the Rif mountains in Morocco from this spot ...

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## Mellifera Crofter

No ....  That's Benachie - surely.

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## fatshark

A bit higher than Bennachie ... with more vultures.
Another difference ... the sun is shining  :Wink:

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## Lancs Lad

Well it's kicked of for me in Lancashire had to do five artificial swarms today, majority of stocks brood boxes full of brood and nectar the perfect storm.

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## Adam

That's a lot of work; a lack of space or swarmy girls?

I had a swarm yesterday - due to emergency queencells that appeared after the time i thought they wouldn't. So there was the desired queencell that was open plus some others....
Swarm caught and put in a hive without too much bother as the swarm was at waist height. There was one emergency queencell already open so I opened the rest and all had queens that came out sprightly enough. One went to the tiny swarm I caught the other day.

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## Blackbrood

so far so good. touch wood and all that. no swarms so far this May but quite a few damerees.

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## Adam

I am afraid to tempt fate by saying none from a normal colony so far - just the 'operator error' above. 

I looked at one colony a few days ago and it had 11 frames of brood and a dummy board in the brood box so they were rather cramped - although they had a lot of super space although that was also full - I usually give a second brood box at around 9 frames of brood and the colonies build up to around 14 or 15 frames for me. OSR is about to finish so as well as having to deal with the honey, the reduced forage may result in a change in hive activity.

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## Adam

I am afraid to tempt fate by saying none from a normal colony so far - just the 'operator error' above. 

I looked at one colony a few days ago and it had 11 frames of brood and a dummy board in the brood box so they were rather cramped - although they had a lot of super space although that was also full - I usually give a second brood box at around 9 frames of brood and the colonies build up to around 14 or 15 frames for me. OSR is about to finish so as well as having to deal with the honey, the reduced forage may result in a change in hive activity.

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## Jambo

Intervened just in time yesterday, double brood colony with loads of charged cells, five capped! In most cases they were at the bottom of the frames of the top brood box as per the book but also a lovely big supercedure cell right in the middle of a frame.

2017 queen but I've never been sure her bees like her very much.

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## fatshark

All kicking off here now ... got a call for a swarm 7pm yesterday evening ... _I'm just back from work, have not had my tea so they'll be fine until tomorrow_ ... famous last words. 

Call at 9am _"they've gone"_. You win some and you lose some.

Most hives now have split boards in and (drum roll) I'm actually running out of supers so have been busy building frames most of today  :Smile: 

The weather for the week ahead is predicted to be good and I've just discovered the farmer has planted a big area of field beans near one of my apiaries ... result  :Wink:

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## gavin

Swarming kicking off in some apiaries but yet to really get going in others. 




> I'm just back from work, have not had my tea so they'll be fine until tomorrow[/I] ... famous last words.


Lightweight!   :Wink: 

I'll be interested to hear how the field beans go.  Haven't had an appreciable flow from them here in my limited experience (and C4U says similar from his exceedingly extensive experience) but there is always a first time.  Usually it is winter beans that yield in England I believe. 

Just have to finish this super then I'm off to let beginners loose on colonies 3 weeks further on from visit number one.

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## Jambo

> Intervened just in time yesterday, double brood colony with loads of charged cells, five capped! In most cases they were at the bottom of the frames of the top brood box as per the book but also a lovely big supercedure cell right in the middle of a frame.
> 
> 2017 queen but I've never been sure her bees like her very much.


Spoke too soon, despite being A/S'd with two nucs taken off and almost all the brood and cells removed, they still swarmed.  While doing the splitting the queen was running around piping - no cells quacking back that I could hear - is that an indication that the decision had already been made that they were already for the off?  

Subsequent reading has suggested that swarm control methods which separate the queen from the flying bees seem to be more successful, so far I agree.

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## gavin

> Spoke too soon, despite being A/S'd with two nucs taken off and almost all the brood and cells removed, they still swarmed.  While doing the splitting the queen was running around piping - no cells quacking back that I could hear - is that an indication that the decision had already been made that they were already for the off?  
> 
> Subsequent reading has suggested that swarm control methods which separate the queen from the flying bees seem to be more successful, so far I agree.


You generally hear the quacking after a virgin or virgins have emerged.  The establish queen may also pipe around the first swarming attempt but as they will go (in good conditions, as we are having) around a day after the first cell is capped then her daughters are not developed enough to respond.  The quacking comes when mature virgins are being held in by the workers, usually to regulate the process of issuing casts.

I've intervened in colonies with piping and quacking (by opening or destroying all queen cells) and they've always stayed put.  Even with the original flying bees in that box (having removed the old queen into a nuc at the first sign of queen cells).

Perhaps you missed a queen cell?  In a colony with a piping virgin and a sealed cell remaining, losing a cast is quite likely. 

On queen cells and their positioning, forget the stuff in books about swarm cells and supersedure cells.  Swarm cells can be (and often are) on the face of the comb.  Perhaps a quarter to a third of those I've seen this week are like that.  Supersedure cells can be on the edges of comb.  The dogmatic statements in some books are just wrong.  I tend not to trust supersedure attempts anyway - they can change their minds.  Out of the swarming season I may leave things alone as long as the established queen is clipped. 

Obviously separating all the flying bees from the queen works temporarily.  If the queen is in a busy box then the colony will still be in a swarmy mood and once enough bees have graduated to swarming (and they've made more queen cells, even partly finished) they could be off then. 

To control swarming I now just separate the queen from the queen cells, leave only one queen cell in a queenless box, and keep it that way by removing extra cells made later.  Doesn't matter whether the flying bees are with the old queen or with the queen cells.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... To control swarming I now just separate the queen from the queen cells, leave only one queen cell in a queenless box, and keep it that way by removing extra cells made later.  Doesn't matter whether the flying bees are with the old queen or with the queen cells.


Do you put the queen in a nuc made up as usual with three frames of brood, Gavin?  Or do you leave her with fewer, or no, brood frames and a lot of house bees?  Or something else?  And, I suppose, move her to another apiary?
Kitta

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## Jambo

Useful stuff there Gavin, thank you.




> Perhaps you missed a queen cell?  In a colony with a piping virgin and a sealed cell remaining, losing a cast is quite likely.


I can't rule it out I suppose but after losing the swarm I only had two brood combs to check and did so twice and I am as sure as I can be there there was no QC there in any state!  I have since given them a QC to look after.

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## fatshark

> To control swarming I now just separate the queen from the queen cells, leave only one queen cell in a queenless box, and keep it that way by removing extra cells made later.  Doesn't matter whether the flying bees are with the old queen or with the queen cells.


Interesting how different people adopt different methods. I used to do it just like this but increasingly do a vertical split as it allows me to re-unite more easily in the future. I often also knock off all the cells at first, then check again and leave one unsealed charged one. That way I'm pretty sure they started it from a young larva.

Nice swarm - as defined by the fact they're calm and already piling in the pollen - arrived in a bait hive today  :Smile:

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## Thymallus

> To control swarming I now just separate the queen from the queen cells, leave only one queen cell in a queenless box, and keep it that way by removing extra cells made later.  Doesn't matter whether the flying bees are with the old queen or with the queen cells.


I've been doing the opposite on occasions (AKA Snelgrove method II). Vertical split, division board,  putting queen with queen cells and brood in top box. So far they have torn all queen cells down. Number of times I've done this is low but damn impressive to date. This may change  :Smile: 
Depending on queen either give eggs to lower box to raise new queen/leave frame with single queen cell....or leave without  larvae for a week or so and unite back to original queen.
Or remove top box with queen to another apiary etc...the possibilities are multiple depending on where you want to be.

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## fatshark

> ...or leave without  larvae for a week or so and unite back to original queen.


How effective is this? I've never really tried it but am fast running out of boxes  :Wink:

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## Jambo

> I've been doing the opposite on occasions (AKA Snelgrove method II). Vertical split, division board,  putting queen with queen cells and brood in top box. So far they have torn all queen cells down. Number of times I've done this is low but damn impressive to date. This may change


My mentor guided me through one of these at the weekend and same experience, all the QCs torn down. It is quite remarkable.  Wally Shaw's guide says to put the original queen back with the old queenless flying bees after 9-10 days but I'm not sure I see the point?

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## Thymallus

> How effective is this? I've never really tried it but am fast running out of boxes


It seems to work most of the time I've used it. In fact I can't recall it not working with the bees I keep...I think Snelgrove reckoned 9-10 days...gives time for the oldest flying bees to die off, but I usually do it after 7 days or 8 depends on timing of apiary visit plus weather. It's not something I do too frequently as I usually take the opportunity to generate new queens by adding fresh larvae/eggs...so only amalgamate back if it's a queen I want to keep.
My division board has a square mesh so odours are still compatible, but I also give them the air freshener treatment as insurance when mixing back.
Should add these are mainly Buckfast F1's which are not very swarmy bees in general.... I never found an effective method of swarm control for the local bees in my area, these were (and still are) avid annual and bi-annual swarmers.

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## madasafish

> .
> Should add these are mainly Buckfast F1's which are not very swarmy bees in general.....


I have a hive with a 2915 Blue Buckfast queen.Never swarmed...

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## Adam

Unless circumstances mess up my plans, I tend to not breed from a queen that's swarmed - or certainly the early swarmers in the year and over a few years I have had less of a problem that I once did. If a colony is about to swarm a Demaree usually works for a short while however a large colony will then again attempt to swarm a 2 or 3 weeks later. Occasionally cutting out queencells will work but usually because of some other management - for example giving extra space if the bees were heavily congested; however cutting out queencells is something you need to go back to the colony for a few days later and check again - it can buy you some time but is not a sure-fire solution. If a colony is going to supercede, it's usually because the queen is old or failing and you can usually be alerted by slow laying; drone brood in worker cells or such-like, supercedure is unlikely to happen in a large and prosperous colony in the height of summer; I agree with Gavin concerning what the books tell us about supercedure cells; colonies can swarm on them. Clipping the queen is a good remedy.

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## Thymallus

> I have a hive with a 2915 Blue Buckfast queen.Never swarmed...


Must have been a good year, I currently have a couple of 2015 blue dotted Buckfast queens both still going strong. Most of my swarming occurs when I accidentally (operator error) get F2' queens and they revert to the local annual swarming phenotype. They usually get replaced with F1's or better...what I do for swarming colonies varies per hive; usually all dependent on times, whether I have any newly mated queens available, the circumstances on the day and what spare kit I have in the back of truck/at the apiary at the time.  I nearly always have a few Snelgrove boards around....very versatile piece of kit.

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## gavin

> Do you put the queen in a nuc made up as usual with three frames of brood, Gavin?  Or do you leave her with fewer, or no, brood frames and a lot of house bees?  Or something else?  And, I suppose, move her to another apiary?
> Kitta


Hi Kitta

Usually one frame of brood (minus queen cells, plus the queen), one frame with stores and perhaps a frame or two frames of bees shaken in, plus four frames which are usually a mix of foundation and comb, the comb going next to the bees.  Some years and in some locations you end up feeding them a little, weekly, in other years (like this one so far!) they build quickly and will fill a brood box by heather time.  I don't shut them in or move them away, the presence of the queen holds most of them. 

This gives me a simple means of swarm control, no heavy lifting of extra boxes, stability for 9 days or so if only an open queen cell is left in the main box (the nuc seldom tries to swarm though a couple have this year), leaves a strong unit capable of gathering honey through the rest of the season, and, crucially, fits my lazy/disorganised/too busy winter lifestyle when I never seem to get around to making those split boards fatshark now uses!  (Maybe next year, though I still worry about the back). 

G.

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## gavin

> Nice swarm - as defined by the fact they're calm and already piling in the pollen - arrived in a bait hive today


I have a box of total bitches just over the hill from you and wondered if maybe you'd inherited them.  A box of midrib perforating nasty, explosive [bleeps].  No queen cells today though so you're safe but I hate to think what the colony's drones will be up to.  However today I swapped boxes with an apparently queenless small colony now with a protected cell, returned the supers to the original site, split the double brood onto two separate stands and after dispatching the queen added protected cells in each.  Might work, but I'd best check them in a few days for more emergency queen cells of their own line.   

Great discussion on Snelgrove II, thanks.  You've got me thinking, perhaps I'll try it.

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## Adam

> Great discussion on Snelgrove II, thanks.  You've got me thinking, perhaps I'll try it.


I've never tried it either. (I do have Snelgroves book which I remember was not a particularly fun read).

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## fatshark

Splits ... weight can be an issue particularly if there are supers involved as well. To my considerable surprise I've got four supers (though in fairness, one has only just been added) on the queenright half of a colony I Pagden'd much earlier in the month. I'm hoping to find the new laying Q in the other 'half' tomorrow. It was a very prolific colony from early season and I'm pleased I did a classic artificial swarm, rather than use a split board.

Bad tempered girls ... definitely not the ones I got this time. If they arrive I'll be returning them pronto. Look out for a red Paynes 8 frame nuc box with a biohazard sticker arriving in your apiary  :Wink:

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## Adam

> I have a hive with a 2915 Blue Buckfast queen.Never swarmed...


My 2015 'breeder' queen has not swarmed - she is now in a nuc with a couple of frames of brood and getting very very slow although the brood pattern is as solid as you would like to see. The bees are currently on their third supercedure queencell (of which the other two have been harvested already). Another 2015 'non-swarmed' queen was superceded last autumn and I rescued her whilst daughter was in the hive and popped her in a nuc to overwinter, she faded away a month or so back with a supercedure virgin now in residence.
My girls tend to not swarm (I am tempting fate again) and supercede after two summers.

Question:- Does queen longevity indicate that her daughters will also be long-lived and hence more productive than short-lived ones?

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## Thymallus

> Splits ... weight can be an issue particularly if there are supers involved as well. )


It's a very pleasant issue to have. 
Amount of hive stands can be a determining point as to whether you "Pagden" or "Snelgrove". I've just had to turn a Snelgrove into a pagden as this was on a field of OSR now gone over.....so the top half + queen is now in my garden with a Snelgrove floor....and the bottom half plus a queen cell from my breeder queen   plus three supers (now empty as cleared full ones) is now residing in an out apiary where a field of OSR just came into flower last week.

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## gavin

> To my considerable surprise I've got four supers (though in fairness, one has only just been added) on the queenright half of a colony I Pagden'd much earlier in the month.


Anyone have a view on whether splits with the old queen gather honey better than equivalent splits with queen cells?

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## mbc

> Anyone have a view on whether splits with the old queen gather honey better than equivalent splits with queen cells?


Hell of a question Gavin!
At the beginning of a honey flow if you remove or cage the queen you can harvest more honey than in an equivalent hive left queen right, however, the colony is then spent until it gets through another cycle of brood rearing 
A colony intent on swarming but split leaving the old queen some brood and the flyers can go two ways, either behave as if it's swarmed and work like stingo bringing in lots of honey, or still have swarming on the "hive" mind and be in a passive lethargic waiting mood refusing to put much weight on foraging.
A split with the foragers, brood and queen cells tends to not pile on weight until the new queen gets going.
(All in my opinion/experience of course and subject to the usual caveats; locality, bees and beekeepers perception all vary)

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## fatshark

I usually set up my vertical splits so that any supers are with the most populated box. I reverse the boxes after a week, trim down to one QC in the queenless box and rearrange the supers for the reorientating flyers.
However, I've been known to (regularly  :Frown:  ) get it completely wrong. 

Like mbc says ... I've certainly notices that queenless boxes pile the honey in, though disappointingly I think they often preferentially fill the brood frames first.

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## gavin

Thanks guys.  This is something I don't think I've thought about before and don't recall seeing discussed anywhere.




> Hell of a question Gavin!


Maybe, but hell of an answer! 

What I've been noticing recently - in this long, continuously decent spring, fits your observations well, mbc.  Some colonies (with queen cells) I thought might put their little feet on the gas pedal regarding honey collection (especially being relieved of the burden of feeding young brood) instead are going a bit listless.  Some just passive and some passive-aggressive  :Big Grin: .  That was the dogma in my head and was what I was expecting, that numbers of foragers minus the demand for brood rearing gives the surplus available for storage.  The hive numbers were too few and the thoughts too recent to be worth offering, hence the question. 

So is the Pagden-type split (side to side or vertically) the ideal one for maximising honey production?  

Haven't tried removing or caging queens at the start of a honey flow, but I'm mostly taking out queens in colonies that are making queen cells.  Yes, there is usually honey already coming into the brood nest before I do this as the queen's laying reduces but after the split things seem to go quieter.  All very casual though - I shouldn't even suggest this without actually weighing colonies.  Maybe someone with hive scales has proper data.    

C4U might have a view but is currently trying to do the work of about 73 strapping Polish lads so maybe that's one for the quieter months. He does give the box with the old queen the flyers I think in the vertical split system he uses. 

Maybe they 'know' they have to preserve themselves for the brood rearing tasks ahead rather than beat themselves to death stashing in a huge crop for the future of the colony.  It is always nice to rationalise these things even when my own observations are definitely built on sand.

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## Feckless Drone

That really is a complicated question Gavlar. Up there along with which type of bee is the best? Which type of hive is the best? Which honey is the best? 

Is the key here - simply the number, strength of the foraging force matched to the timing of a flow? So, highly variable and might depend on timings of doing the split related to when and how the Q has been laying irrespective of where you put her. I do feel sure that with no young to feed then more nectar should be stored, but then again a foraging force must use up a lot as well. Then are they making alot of wax? 

In case you are wondering - my bees are pretty good (but I suspect that given this spring weather then everyone's bees are good), I like poly-Nationals (Swienty), Jim Batchelor's bell heather honey is pretty spectacular.

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## Thymallus

> Anyone have a view on whether splits with the old queen gather honey better than equivalent splits with queen cells?


Funny you should ask that. I was pondering same yesterday whilst removing three super's full of honey from a queenless double brood hive waiting for a virgin to emerge (Queen was put in nuc as swarm control here)  and then removed another three supers from a split where the Q+ side is on the bottom and the Q- is Snelgroved on top....and I haven't let any of the top fliers back. If anything the later colony was the smaller as only on single brood box.

I know that some use a three frame queen cage to restrict the queen's laying when there is a flow on...meaning that the workforce can concentrate on honey rather than waste time and energy brood rearing. I've heard of people who supposedly take queenless hives to the heather as they reckon better yield (although I suspect this may be a bit of fiction).

What I do know is bigger colonies give bigger yields given the rub of the green. Although I have had large colonies that gave disappointing yields in comparison to others of similar size.  I was reading seem stuff on high vs low pollen gatherers. Turns out the high pollen gatherers are poor honey collectors in comparison to the low pollen gatherers. Makes sense that honey collection is something that can be selected for.

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## gavin

> Is the key here - simply the number, strength of the foraging force matched to the timing of a flow?


Well, that was the default previously but not what mbc thinks he sees and maybe not what I see too. That mysterious thing the hive mind, the morale of the hive, its ambition to do stuff.  Curiously it could fit biology.  The future need is for young bees so they preserve themselves for that. 

A bit like virgins in big boxes saving themselves for later.  Why get mated and start brood rearing now when the health of the whole colony might be improved by letting everyone get out of their little rooms and giving the place a damn good clean first.  Virgins in little boxes (or the workers who control them) know that priority number one is building so that they're strong enough to get through the coming winter.  Best not wait for all the little rooms to become empty.

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## gavin

> I was pondering same yesterday whilst removing three super's full of honey from a queenless double brood hive waiting for a virgin to emerge (Queen was put in nuc as swarm control here)  and then removed another three supers from a split where the Q+ side is on the bottom and the Q- is Snelgroved on top....and I haven't let any of the top fliers back. If anything the later colony was the smaller as only on single brood box.


I was out at an apiary this evening in a part of Perthshire which had been nicely refreshed after today's rain.  They followed the same pattern as we've been discussing with less storage in strong splits missing the old queen.

Think I'm going to have to reassess my swarm control.  And maybe try proper replicated experiments.

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## fatshark

> Maybe they 'know' they have to preserve themselves for the brood rearing tasks ahead rather than beat themselves to death stashing in a huge crop for the future of the colony.  It is always nice to rationalise these things even when my own observations are definitely built on sand.


Might the answer to this be something to do with evolution and swarming. In a natural swarm (which is not the same one of our splits) the majority of the adults disappear with the Q. The age distribution of bees in these swarms is known (Gilley looked at this https://www.apidologie.org/articles/..._3_ART0003.pdf and it's strongly biased towards the younger bees i.e. <10 days from eclosion). At best - assuming no comb in the new site - the rate limiting step to colony build up is going to be nectar coming in for comb building. In contrast, the ~25% of the colony left behind have lashings of stores and lots of mouths to feed. Their priority for survival is rearing a new Q. 

Which of the splits, Pagden's _etc._ best replicate a natural swarm, and does the queenright portion 'behave' like a swarm with regard to nectar collection.

_SBAi ... the thinking beekeepers forum_  :Wink:

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## gavin

Yes, I can see the evolutionary reasons for the behaviour around swarming. It is as if there are whole-colony behaviours associated with building, storing, propagating and preparing for renewed building. 

Let's proceed assuming that we are convinced that the presence of the old queen helps foraging.  So, to replicate a natural swarm with its preponderance of young bees we'd have to:

- do a split, old Q in a box on a the old site with only sealed brood or no brood at all
- shake three quarters of the house bees into this hive (avoiding shaking the chosen queen cell)
- let some flyers in during this time then add travel screen, close up and move aside 
- put the old brood box with queen cell(s) but depleted in young bees back on the old site 
- leave many of the flyers to re-enter that box
- take the old Q/new box away to a different apiary to ensure the flyers in the box with the old queen remain there

The thing is this new box of bees will not actually have been though the swarming process so may not have all the right triggers.  Besides, it will still have a job of work to do building up again.  Could be a good move though if stocks are to be moved to a new site for a particular honey crop.  The problem could be that the colony is still in a mind to swarm and will very quickly return to that activity but if you are careful avoiding letting it have any eggs or open larvae it should work.

My feeling about the most productive set-up is that the original, pre-swarming hive is the ideal.  The fairly striking contrast I've been seeing (in a smallish sample so far) is mostly between colonies split without the old queen in residence (or attempted to swarm and lost the old queen) and colonies still not in the reproductive phase.  Hence the most productive colonies in a good spring flow might be those managed in one of two ways to delay any swarming attempts to the June gap, such as it is:

- pre-swarming Demaree to delay swarming (as long as you are happy to recover honey from the top box, perhaps sequentially)
- a strong colony continually persuaded to avoid swarming by taking out a frame or two from the brood box and replacing with foundation, maybe making up a nuc or two from an apiary each visit.  The comb building and new space created should help hold them back. 

Of course an even better strategy is to make sure that you have non-swarmy bees!  Easier said than done perhaps.  I have one apiary with Jon Getty's queens and their daughters and grandaughters - the original generation are clearly non-swarmy but a couple of generations down the line crossing with the local drones (mostly from the one commercial beekeeper I would assume) and that trait is far less obvious.

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## Thymallus

> - pre-swarming Demaree to delay swarming (as long as you are happy to recover honey from the top box, perhaps sequentially)


Proper Demaree is hard work as you are supposed to be constantly moving up brood frames from bottom box to prevent this. It's why I prefer some form of division board (eg Snelgrove) as it prevents the top brood box getting back filled with honey.
I often wonder what people are on about when they say they use a modified Demaree board...sounds like a form of divison/snelgrove type board.




> Of course an even better strategy is to make sure that you have non-swarmy bees!  Easier said than done perhaps.  I have one apiary with Jon Getty's queens and their daughters and grandaughters - the original generation are clearly non-swarmy but a couple of generations down the line crossing with the local drones (mostly from the one commercial beekeeper I would assume) and that trait is far less obvious.


Exactly same experience, as the downstream generations progressed and they became more "localised", more aggressive and more swarmy. The last of the original queens I had died this winter...she would have been 4 years old this year.

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## Thymallus

> Is the key here - simply the number, strength of the foraging force matched to the timing of a flow?


No, although in general that strategy will serve you well. 
A strong hive will, in general, bring in more honey than a smaller hive. I think the figures are like 2x bee numbers in one hive=3x the amount of honey compared to 2 separate hives with 1x bee numbers in each. 
But the complication, I think, lies in previous selection for honey collection strains. There are high and low pollen collecting strains of bees and the honey collection is inversely proportional. i.e high pollen gather strains are poor honey gatherers and vice versa.
You can often find hives of nearly equivalent bee numbers, but only one is really doing the business honey wise. The other, I suspect,  is just raising more bees.

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## gavin

> Proper Demaree is hard work as you are supposed to be constantly moving up brood frames from bottom box to prevent this. It's why I prefer some form of division board (eg Snelgrove) as it prevents the top brood box getting back filled with honey.
> I often wonder what people are on about when they say they use a modified Demaree board...sounds like a form of divison/snelgrove type board.
> 
> Exactly same experience, as the downstream generations progressed and they became more "localised", more aggressive and more swarmy. The last of the original queens I had died this winter...she would have been 4 years old this year.


Can't help thinking that - on the weekly to 9 day inspections - it isn't much work to recover the honey frames from the upper box and replace with foundation or extracted comb below as you rotate the sealed brood upwards.  Bet I'd get a much larger spring honey crop. I'll need to go through the boxes for a swarm check anyway.  Although there is a disease risk from returning extracted frames to other colonies and apiaries - and returning extracted frames to the same colonies would be awkward or need a visit for recovery and extraction followed by another visit to return the frames.

Look at me - thinking and planning as if a good spring flow is normal ;-) 

A week ago I still had one of those 4 year old queens!  Here anyway I wouldn't use the word 'localised', just thoroughly hybridised with what other beekeeper(s) are choosing to keep.  Usually those hybrids are a mess in terms of behaviour and perhaps swarminess.

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## Jambo

> Look at me - thinking and planning as if a good spring flow is normal ;-)


Bother - I was assuming I was reaping the benefits of being into my second season with bigger colonies and boxes full of drawn comb... Is this not normal?  :Smile:

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## Adam

> No, although in general that strategy will serve you well. 
> A strong hive will, in general, bring in more honey than a smaller hive. I think the figures are like 2x bee numbers in one hive=3x the amount of honey compared to 2 separate hives with 1x bee numbers in each. 
> But the complication, I think, lies in previous selection for honey collection strains. There are high and low pollen collecting strains of bees and the honey collection is inversely proportional. i.e high pollen gather strains are poor honey gatherers and vice versa.
> You can often find hives of nearly equivalent bee numbers, but only one is really doing the business honey wise. The other, I suspect,  is just raising more bees.


I too have seen colonies of apparent similar size and one brings in significantly more honey that the other. Could it be that the productive hive has longer lasting bees?

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## Adam

> Proper Demaree is hard work as you are supposed to be constantly moving up brood frames from bottom box to prevent this. It's why I prefer some form of division board (eg Snelgrove) as it prevents the top brood box getting back filled with honey.
> I often wonder what people are on about when they say they use a modified Demaree board...sounds like a form of divison/snelgrove type board.
> 
> 
> Exactly same experience, as the downstream generations progressed and they became more "localised", more aggressive and more swarmy. The last of the original queens I had died this winter...she would have been 4 years old this year.


This where -if you can - you should continue to try to improve your own bees (I know that's a problem for your location, Nigel).


I have been disappointed when I have made an A/S and been told that they really bring in the honey as there is little brood to rear. The colony goes off the boil quite quickly as there is no young blood coming along (or should I say young haemolymph) to replace the worn-out foragers. And you can find that what honey is there is not ripened and capped for a long time too.

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## madasafish

> I too have seen colonies of apparent similar size and one brings in significantly more honey that the other. Could it be that the productive hive has longer lasting bees?


My experience is that my most productive hive starts working in volume earlier in the day and finishes later than the others.. (Carniolan stock but F3 and occasionally defensive when inspected)

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## Thymallus

> This where -if you can - you should continue to try to improve your own bees (I know that's a problem for your location, Nigel).


I improve my stock by sourcing and buying queens from what I think are the best breeders. Several years of trying to improve the mongrels in my area has shown me the futility of continuing down that line. But as you know Adam, I have quite a broad "stable" of bees and am always experimenting with different strains.
And one day I may find that my introduction of good genetics to the area pays off. It is certainly benefiting a couple of the local beekeepers who have moved their mongrel bees within my drones flying area....as  they get such good matings in this area but they are currently a little puzzled as many of their offspring are no longer a dark black.

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## Jambo

So a question to the more experienced - does this seem so far like quite a "swarmy" year if there is such a thing?  With my small sample size it seems so, both colonies (2016 and 2017 queens) building QCs two weeks ago.

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## madasafish

> So a question to the more experienced - does this seem so far like quite a "swarmy" year if there is such a thing?  With my small sample size it seems so, both colonies (2016 and 2017 queens) building QCs two weeks ago.


Not swarmy but 3 out of 8 hives have superceded their last year's queens. (Probably poorly mated due to weather)

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## Adam

> So a question to the more experienced - does this seem so far like quite a "swarmy" year if there is such a thing?  With my small sample size it seems so, both colonies (2016 and 2017 queens) building QCs two weeks ago.


From my part of the world, colonies were slow to start so my expectation was that they would be smaller at early swarming time which is often mid May. I have had little in the way of swarm calls (less than most years).  Colonies are now up to full strength so maybe a swarm in June - for that Silver Spoon - is possible.
Currently my girls have finished the OSR and are at a loose end before bramble comes alive. I don't usually see swarms during the June Gap.

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## Thymallus

> So a question to the more experienced - does this seem so far like quite a "swarmy" year if there is such a thing?  With my small sample size it seems so, both colonies (2016 and 2017 queens) building QCs two weeks ago.


One part of the swarming equation is the bee's genetics. In my area the local mongrels are annual swarmers...the advice to breed new queens from your least swarmy colonies does not apply.....
This was regardless of room or anything else I could think of....some would swarm 2 or 3 x a year. So worth checking what the genetic swarming propensity of the bees you have might be.

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## Jambo

Thanks. The 2016 queen is one of C4U's, and the 2017 is a daughter of another of his.

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## Thymallus

Doubtful they will be naturally swarmy genetically from C4U. 
Another part of the swarming equation is room. Bees need plenty of it, particularly early season when their numbers are increasing fast. I think it's reckoned that one frame of brood when emerged has enough bees to cover three frames, so easy to see how this can soon get them crowded.
If the queen runs out of laying room this can also cause issues.

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## Jambo

> Doubtful they will be naturally swarmy genetically from C4U. 
> Another part of the swarming equation is room. Bees need plenty of it, particularly early season when their numbers are increasing fast. I think it's reckoned that one frame of brood when emerged has enough bees to cover three frames, so easy to see how this can soon get them crowded.
> If the queen runs out of laying room this can also cause issues.


Yes nail on the head there I think - they are prolific and I need to get more proactive on the laying room. They did both have double brood boxes laid wall to wall when they started on the QCs! 

Drawn comb is a limiting factor for me as a new beek but I will follow C4Us advice published elsewhere to make a supply of that this autumn  :Smile: 

That plus a ready supply of mated queens in early May....

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## Thymallus

> Yes nail on the head there I think - they are prolific and I need to get more proactive on the laying room. They did both have double brood boxes laid wall to wall when they started on the QCs! 
> 
> Drawn comb is a limiting factor for me as a new beek but I will follow C4Us advice published elsewhere to make a supply of that this autumn 
> 
> That plus a ready supply of mated queens in early May....


The idea of going to three brood boxes + several supers requires a stepladder....But sometimes is the right answer...or splitting.

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## lindsay s

Ive been through 18 hives this week (not all mine) and only two of them were making serious attempts to swarm. The rest had no more than a few queen cups. Last week at a friends apiary we moved a 4 year old queen into a smaller hive and packed it with bees and brood in an effort to get Q cells, nothings happened yet. The weather is due to change here midweek and the bees could be cooped up for a while so if theyre true to form theyll be building cells with a vengeance. The last few hives got their first super today. The beekeeping calendar is just a little bit later up here.

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## fatshark

I have two main apiaries about 15 miles apart. The queens heading the colonies in each have a similar provenance and I've moved hives back and forwards between the two early this season and last year. In one apiary I've been very busy splitting colonies, making up nucs and otherwise stopping them swarm, in the other there's only been charged QC's in one colony. The forage is very different, but - of the two - it's the one with access to OSR that's been very quiet. The OSR is over now but they're still piling in the nectar from somewhere.

There are obviously localised differences in the climate but I suspect the main reason one apiary showed less tendency to swarm is the speed with which I piled the supers on ... I was away in mid-May and was double-supering colonies from the start. In contrast, the 'swarm' apiary built up a bit more slowly and then switched straight to swarm preparations.

The other things I've done this year is to keep them busy drawing comb when there was an opportunity - either by swapping in new frames, or by cutting out sheets of drone comb they've drawn on foundationless frames. I mainly use the latter with vertical bamboo skewers and they tend to build in thirds - worker or drone in each panel. I simply slice out the drone. I use tongue depressors as starter strips, so don't need to re-prepare the frame for them to use it again.

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## Thymallus

My suspicion is the extended long winter into a late spring is leading to a delay in the normal "timing". But it is happening.
Arrived at out apiary (6 days since last inspection)....guess what......one hive was swarming...amazing sight seeing them all literally run out of the entrance and take to the air. Recovered queen from ground (clipped) put her in a box...only to find 20 minutes later she had absconded (hole in box!!!).... bugger.
KO all queen cells (don't want to breed further from this queen) so now no queens in either bottom or top boxes...mmmm. New variation of Snelgrove swarm control... :Smile: 
Eggs/larvae to be added soon.

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## Adam

I have had one colony swarm - not inspected for nearly 3 weeks and looking back at my notes, I hadn't clipped the queen. Damn and blast it! Another colony had one queencell being started which I removed plus a cluster of cups. I will have to check back later and see if they have given up the idea. There should be enough space in the hives at the moment with part-filled supers - waitiung for the blackberry to get into full swing.
And my last 2015 queen - retired in a nuc -  has finally been replaced after a few attempts at supercedure and me harvesting the queencells. A youngster was found in the hive on Thursday along with Mum. By Saturday, Mum had gone. We are expecting 23 degrees or more next week so she should mate and start laying soon. By next weekend maybe. (counting chickens again).

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## Adam

I have had one colony swarm - not inspected for nearly 3 weeks and looking back at my notes, I hadn't clipped the queen. Damn and blast it! Another colony had one queencell being started which I removed plus a cluster of cups. I will have to check back later and see if they have given up the idea. There should be enough space in the hives at the moment with part-filled supers - waitiung for the blackberry to get into full swing.
And my last 2015 queen - retired in a nuc -  has finally been replaced after a few attempts at supercedure and me harvesting the queencells. A youngster was found in the hive on Thursday along with Mum. By Saturday, Mum had gone. We are expecting 23 degrees or more next week so she should mate and start laying soon. By next weekend maybe. (counting chickens again).

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## lindsay s

Were having a good spell of weather at the moment and Ive been managing 7-8 day inspections of all of  my colonies mostly for swarm control. Cell building has started and Ive started to make splits. But due to a long spell of cool dry weather a lot of colonies are low on stores so it hasnt been easy. One colony on Tuesday had sealed Q cells but luckily for me the queen was still there and showing no sign of swarming.
Now for the other extreme. I split a hive on Sunday that had open Q cells and a 3 year old queen. I moved two frames of brood and one of stores into a nuc plus shook bees from another 3 frames. The nuc was then moved to another apiary. The old queen was left in the main hive with foundation added to the brood box, all Q cells removed, plenty of room in the supers and there was a flow on. That method of swarm control usually works for me.
 Today I was called  to a swarm flying at that apiary and by the time I got there most of the bees had settled on the outside of a hive. It was the same one that Id split on Sunday!!! I couldnt find the queen in the brood box but I eventually found her and a lot of bees  in the gap between the hive stand and the underside of the floor. Im not sure if she had joined the flying bees and then came back or if she was never with them in the first place. The hive was reassembled and they have plenty of foundation in the B box, all Q cups were removed and the flow is still on. I hope the scout bees dont have a conflab in the next few days but as C4U says on page 2 of this thread Lots of flying bees come back in the mood for swarming action and it can be quite a task to control  :Frown:

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## lindsay s

It’s just as  well I’m on holiday at the moment because I’ve been spending a lot of time sorting out the troublesome bees at a new apiary site I’ve been given the use of. It’s an unused garden with high walls, is sheltered and the hives face south. The only downside is it can get very warm on a sunny day. My normal method of swarm management is not working and I think the heat might have something to do with it.
Hives were checked and one was split on Sunday but by Tuesday evening I was called to another swarm there.  After a lot of faffing about the swarm was eventually returned to its hive. First thing today I went to sort out the swarmed hive and found two marked queens in the brood box. It seems the hive next door swarmed about the same time and they both merged unknown to me. So for a while this morning I watched large numbers of bees moving between the two hives before they settled down. After even more faffing about the marked queens are now back in their own hives in yellow queen posting cages with a few workers as well. I would like to leave them in the cages until the weekend until things settle down even further.
Is this to long and are there any other downsides? Any quick replies would be appreciated.

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## Thymallus

> I would like to leave them in the cages until the weekend until things settle down even further.
> Is this to long and are there any other downsides? Any quick replies would be appreciated.


That's an interesting approach to "swarm control".  Be interested to hear how it works.
Suspect there is no 100% answer, but the foragers with swarm fever need to die off before they will stop attempting to swarm....but would suggest KO any and every queen cell otherwise you might get swarms going off with any emerged virgin  queens whilst the original is caged.. They build them in some amazingly difficult to find inventive places.

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