# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Best simple methods for raising a few queens

## The Drone Ranger

How about cell punching any experts out there ??

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## Jimbo

Hi DR,
I am not an expert on cell punching but I did see a demonstration/explanation from Roger Patterson at the SICAMM conference in Aviemore. I thought I would give it a try as I think it would be easy and cheaper that using the Cupkit system, however I was unable to source a punch as they are no longer produced. Roger did say that a used bullet case (I can't remember the caliber) could be used. Unable to source spent bullets even on MOD land where my hives are located I decided to try and make my own punches. I cut up a 2 ml plastic syringe which is about the same diameter and pushed it through a spare drawn frame of wax. I sharpened the end of the syringe to help it cut through. It looks as though it may work but I have never had time to give it a serious go. Jon will be along to tell you just to graft. Grafting would just be as cheap. The only advantage to cell punch is you don't touch the larvae

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## Jon

If you want a really simple method ( even simpler than simple grafting!) Separate your colony into two parts separated by a queen excluder. Confine the queen to the bottom box and put the brood frames above it. They will make queen cells in the top part due to the lack of contact with queen pheromone. Use a frame with a nice queen cell on it to make up a nuc. You will probably find several frames with a decent queen cell - but it is easier to graft - and you get more queen cells and the timetable is of your choosing.

Roger is the only guy I know promoting cell punching. (and ley lines)  I have several of these if anyone wants them, that's punches rather than ley lines. PM me if interested as they need a good home. I got them as part of a bargain bag of queen rearing equipment a few years ago.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR,
> I am not an expert on cell punching but I did see a demonstration/explanation from Roger Patterson at the SICAMM conference in Aviemore. I thought I would give it a try as I think it would be easy and cheaper that using the Cupkit system, however I was unable to source a punch as they are no longer produced. Roger did say that a used bullet case (I can't remember the caliber) could be used. Unable to source spent bullets even on MOD land where my hives are located I decided to try and make my own punches. I cut up a 2 ml plastic syringe which is about the same diameter and pushed it through a spare drawn frame of wax. I sharpened the end of the syringe to help it cut through. It looks as though it may work but I have never had time to give it a serious go. Jon will be along to tell you just to graft. Grafting would just be as cheap. The only advantage to cell punch is you don't touch the larvae


I have been  making a punch today and testing it.
I have attached a couple of photo's 
I'm using stainless steel tubing 10mm with a 0.25mm wall
and an insert tube    9mm with a 0.5 wall
The thing i am finding is that the comb which cuts best is the newer wax
I think for grafting the older comb is best so they both have a place
THe difference is your eysight can be fairly poor and your co-ordination crap but you will still be able to punch successfully




> If you want a really simple method ( even simpler than simple grafting!) Separate your colony into two parts separated by a queen excluder. Confine the queen to the bottom box and put the brood frames above it. They will make queen cells in the top part due to the lack of contact with queen pheromone. Use a frame with a nice queen cell on it to make up a nuc. You will probably find several frames with a decent queen cell - but it is easier to graft - and you get more queen cells and the timetable is of your choosing.
> Roger is the only guy I know promoting cell punching. (and ley lines)  I have several of these if anyone wants them, that's punches rather than ley lines. PM me if interested as they need a good home. I got them as part of a bargain bag of queen rearing equipment a few years ago.



Jon I am going to stick a couple of snaps of my prototype here 
Most of the things I have seen so far are brutes( on Dave Cushmams site)
I am waiting for delivery of an Australian punch to trial (its coming from Germany ??)

If you dig them out stick on a pic it would be interesting to see them

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## The Drone Ranger

> If you want a really simple method ( even simpler than simple grafting!) Separate your colony into two parts separated by a queen excluder. Confine the queen to the bottom box and put the brood frames above it. They will make queen cells in the top part due to the lack of contact with queen pheromone. Use a frame with a nice queen cell on it to make up a nuc. You will probably find several frames with a decent queen cell


Might risk a swarm with that Jon a safer method is to use a Snelgrove board
That separates the hive as you suggest.
The bees communicate through a mesh between the boxes
You bleed flying bees off from the top to the bottom box
The bees make queen cells in the top
If you continue bleeding off the bees at intervals they keep one Queencell and remove the rest
If however you don't bleed off the bees they will keep all the queen cells and you can harvest them

Now here's a point of contention possibly  :Smile: 
I believe the best queens are reared under the swarming impulse the bees have planned the larva choice feeding and completion
The Snelgrove board because it doesn't remove the queen still doesn't cause panic queen raising
THe traditional split method leaves the queenless half of the bees panic raising queens 
The first to hatch will be from the oldest larva (not neccesarily the best) 
In an unmanaged swarmy stock that virgin would leave with a cast and a better queen from a younger larva would take over
The poorest prospects for a good queen would seem to be from supercedure where the new queen is raised from the larva of a failing queen abieit not in any great hurry
Grafting and punching therfore will be fairly hit and miss when it comes to quality compared with natural selection (not Darwinian )

Anybody have any other views  :Smile:

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## Jon

> Might risk a swarm with that Jon a safer method is to use a Snelgrove board


But this is the basic principle of queenright queenraising and they don't swarm when cells are sealed in the top box.
I was sceptical the first time I tried it but I have not lost a swarm yet and have done this many times with a number of different colonies.
I have used at least 6 different colonies as cell raisers this summer alone.




> THe traditional split method leaves the queenless half of the bees panic raising queens





> I believe the best queens are reared under the swarming impulse the bees have planned the larva choice feeding and completion


There is no panic as the bees are still in direct contact with the queen passing via the excluder. Apparently the cells are made under supersedure impulse rather than emergency conditions due to the lack of queen footprint pheromone in the top box.

The biggest queens I have seen come from supersedure cells where the entire colony effort is put into rearing just one or two queens.

Grafting can be hit or miss all right but you graft 20 at a time so can discard cells you don't like the look of or queens which are runts.
I have seen large queens come out of small cells and small queens emerge from large cells so cell size is only a rough guide.

Nutrition is a key factor whatever method you use. badly fed larvae are going to produce poor queens.

And to cap it all after producing your perfectly fed virgin queens you have the lottery of open mating where the best queens can fail to mate properly, turn into drone layers, or mate with the wrong sort of drones.

Mine are still flying and mating as I had another half dozen start to lay since the weekend. the theory is that the later matings are more likely to be with native type drones as the others get kicked out earlier or wont fly at lower temperatures.

The proof will be in the pudding, I mean the morphometry I plan to do in October and November.

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## The Drone Ranger

> But this is the basic principle of queenright queenraising and they don't swarm when cells are sealed in the top box.
> I was sceptical the first time I tried it but I have not lost a swarm yet and have done this many times with a number of different colonies.
> I have used at least 6 different colonies as cell raisers this summer alone.


Well I'll definitely give it a go once I get my cell punching underway  :Smile: 
Heavy rain here today again and I have to open a hive (only one) wher the queen is frame trapped

I read in the Pied Pipers Guide to Beekeeping 
or was it "Breeding Better Bees" Milner and Dews

There were experiments with shutting up the hives and only letting drones and virgins fly at times of day when rival drones were not around
Presumably using queen exluder at the entrance.

Course these are the guys that brought us "Breeding for Resistance" (otherwise known as antisocial behaviour and losing your bees)
And encouraging Feral colonies (also known as alienating the general public)

Ps. "don't mention the war I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it"

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR,
>  I was unable to source a punch as they are no longer produced. Roger did say that a used bullet case (I can't remember the caliber) could be used.


Hi Jimbo PM me an address and I will send you a bit of stainless tube I think is suitable (your message box is full by the way)

There is another interesting method the Alley method which I think could be developed into something simpler

Here's a link to a description for anyone interested
http://www.beeclass.com/DTS/Alleyqueens.htm

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## The Drone Ranger

Jimbo and any other interested experimenters hop over to this link and you will see a set of photo's showing the home made punch in action.

Any comments welcome or any problems with the link please post

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1.../edit?hl=en_US


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1qI17v29jc

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## gavin

Well done DL, I was thinking of offering SBAi server space for your file but you have a way round it.  Nice set of pics.  Grafting is really easy though - stop by at the association apiary and I'll show you (may have to be next year now).

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## The Drone Ranger

heres a better version I think

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## The Drone Ranger

> Well done DL, I was thinking of offering SBAi server space for your file but you have a way round it.  Nice set of pics.  Grafting is really easy though - stop by at the association apiary and I'll show you (may have to be next year now).


Gavin thought you were off to America ?

Cell punching is good for the short sighted types with Delerium Tremens like Tonto and me

Bit of palaver but its done  :Smile: 

Going to take a look at improving on the Alley method next

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## gavin

Soon enough.  I'll still be looking in here though.  A pair of glasses helps with the grafting, just as it does for disease inspections.  You're on your own finding a solution for the DTs though - no experience of that yet!

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## The Drone Ranger

Somebody asked we why the ring was used ?
Well it's not really essential, but it saves just looking down the outer tube of the punch, and makes it easier to mount the punched cell (which should fit on the standard cupkit plastic brown cell and then onto a cellbar if you use that system)
Otherwise just press some foundation onto the bottom bars of a standard super and the cell will stick to that fairly easily

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## Jon

I dug out the cell punches I mentioned in a previous post.

cell punch1.jpg cell punch3.jpg cell punch5.jpg cell punch2.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Jon

It  looks like once a cell is in the tube you push it all the way through with the wooden insert.
Is that the way it works ??
Presumably you push the cell down the tube and it ends up held in the plastic cup
Quite a neat solution

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## Adam

I haven't used a punch - I did read somewhere that you could use a piece of copper tubing which is easy to work. 

I've grafted and cupkitted this year and I prefer the cupkit method; I think it's more reliable and I don't have to wear glasses under a veil which I don't like at all. I am comfortable lifting a queen into the cupkit which might put some people off if they don't have to confidence to pick up their favourite queen.

I agree with Jon about queenright queenrearing with all brood less the frame the queen is on above the queen excluder and a super or two. Its how I produce queencells from introduced larvae in queencups. The colony will also produce a queencell or more of its own as well so a good method me thinks for producing a few queens with just one colony. Everyone says that good nutrition is vital - Brother Adam would feed diluted honey rather than syrup when rearing queens despite the apparent expense. At least you won't dilute any honey in the supers in this way so after the queencells have been produced and removed the colony can go back to how it was as a honey producing colony.

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## Jimbo

Everything you want to know about the cell punch method is on Dave Cushmans site, including all the various ways to make up punches.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Everything you want to know about the cell punch method is on Dave Cushmans site, including all the various ways to make up punches.


That was my first stop but most of the punches were a bit crude

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## robin118

Cleveland beekeepers have a version of cell punch if you go to their web page click on beekeeping articles on the left, third one down " Queen rearing on a shoestring " sorry dont know how to link things

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## The Drone Ranger

> Cleveland beekeepers have a version of cell punch if you go to their web page click on beekeeping articles on the left, third one down " Queen rearing on a shoestring " sorry dont know how to link things


Hi Robin thanks for that its a really nice article 

http://www.teesbees.co.uk/

To put in a link just copy the address when your browser is on the page and then come here right click and choose paste when you are posting your message

Or look along the little icons at the upper edge of your window when posting you will see two little blue planets hover the mouse over them one is for placing and one for removing links

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## Jon

cell punch3.jpgcell punch5.jpgcell punch1.jpgcell punch2.jpgCell punches
#was asked to post these again as the original pics have gone missing


cell punch1.jpg cell punch2.jpg cell punch3.jpg cell punch5.jpg

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## gavin

The recommended procedure for re-linking lost attachments hasn't worked I'm afraid.  Soonish I'll take the plunge and re-install the latest version of the forum software and we'll see if that fixes it.  I think that it was an earlier upgrade that caused this.

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## The Drone Ranger

https://youtu.be/CM1nVsSfr5E
This is very untidy I never got round to editing it but if your bored and have lots of time to waste 
Bit of cell punching :Confused:

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