# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Queenless or Queenright?

## drumgerry

Since I started queen rearing I've used the so called Harden method which as most of you know uses a queenright colony as a cell starter and finisher.  Now I've had good-ish results with it - usually getting 60% or so cells started.  Now that might be down to my crappy grafting and a host of other reasons but one thing that occurs to me is that I might get a better take and even better queens if I give my grafts to a hopelessly queenless unit instead of continuing with the Harden method.  I'd imagine most of us who do this are starting to get organised so it seems a timely question to be asking.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this guys.

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## mbc

I use a cloak board.
http://www.delta-business.com/Calgar...ue%20Cobey.pdf

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## drumgerry

Now that looks nice and easy and makes the top box more truly queenless than does the Harden method.  Just need to make one which again doesn't look too difficult

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## Little_John

I use a Morris Board - same principle - queenless for a day (to get the cells started), then queen-right thereafter which invokes the more leisurely and thorough supersedure impulse which creates higher quality queens. No need for starters and finishers and all that malarky, it all happens above just one brood box.

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## drumgerry

It's pretty much what I do already.  The main difference which I think both of your methods address is that the Harden method uses distance from the queen in the bottom box to simulate queenlessness.  I think using a board of some kind to temporarily make the top box actually queenless might be a better approach and I think I'm going to try it.

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## Little_John

I was reading 'The British Bee-Keepers Guide Book' by T.W. Cowan, 20th Ed. 1911 (first published in 1881) yesterday, in which he describes a truly ingenious method, using slightly different principles, but needing no special gear at all.

For this you need one established colony in a full-sized hive, and one small colony in a NUC box in which the laying queen has proven herself. 
Wait for a reasonably fine day in which the girls are flying freely - then simply swap the positions of the two colonies over.

Of course, several thousand foragers of the full-sized hive will now return to the much smaller NUC box. In no time at all, the message becomes clear that: "this box is too small, and we need a bigger one". But - they won't abandon that box straightaway because there's brood present - so swarming is the only option left open to them, and they'll start building swarm cells and selecting eggs and so forth ...

The NUC work-force will be large enough to build q/cells and feed the eggs/larva for the first couple of days, but not thereafter - so as soon as the q/cell construction is seen to be underway and occupied, simply swap the colony positions back again, whilst simultaneously removing the frame(s) with the swarm cells on - carefully brushing the bees off, being careful not to shake it - and then place this above the brood box (and above a Q/X, of course) of the full-sized hive, next to a couple of frames of pollen and stores.

Although these are/were swarm cells, they'll then be reared without urgency as supersedure cells. 

I think that's a really ingenious way of producing a few queens using only standard kit ...

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## Jimbo

Hi Drumgerry,

I have used a queen less system for a number of years and get about 60-70% take. I was going to try the queen right system this year as used by the national bee unit as It looks to be less of a faffing about.

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## busybeephilip

You need to be carefull when doing this, I would advise that the queen in the nuc receiving all those strange bees is caged or you might find a dead queen

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## Little_John

> You need to be carefull when doing this, I would advise that the queen in the nuc receiving all those strange bees is caged or you might find a dead queen


Yes indeed - I was writing from memory (never a good idea) - and forgot to include that bit. The queen is indeed caged whilst the colonies are 'trans-located' (some 36 hours) as a precaution. Thanks for flagging that up.

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## drumgerry

I'm sure I've heard that the NBU use the Harden method or close to it Jimbo.

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## gavin

If Ben Harden was here he'd happily tell you that the method attributed to him is the one described by Mike Brown, head of NBU! Mike told us all about his method, which itself derives from bits and pieces he picked up elsewhere. There is a paper that describes it in full - can't link to it right now but maybe someone will. 

It works most of the time for me, and most of the time is quite enough. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## Jon

This is the Wilkinson and Brown paper

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## fatshark

I use the Ben Harden system, with perfectly acceptable 'take' rates. I built a Cloake board and a Morris board a couple of years ago. Tried to use the latter to raise queens and failed miserably. Rosie (Steve) has posted a nice looking method using two nuc brood bodies on top of a QE in a queenright system. It elegantly increases the distance between the QC's and the brood box. I keep meaning to give it a go … but then take the simple route of setting up the BH system again  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I'm starting in about 10 days and have several double brood colonies so might dust off the Cloake board and give it a go. Or the Morris board. Or Rosie's method … but probably Ben Harden.

BH has a book on queen rearing coming out via Northern Bee Books later this year … though possibly too late for this season.

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## Poly Hive

The problem with the boards is time and lack of flexibility. I use a queenless unit of shook bees, one stores comb one pollen comb and a syrup feed. I leave the bees 24 hours to realise they are truly desperate, and as I shake from several colonies I use perfumed water spray to over come colony odour. The box I use is a five frame poly National Nuc. 

If the weather is kind the graft take can be very good, my best was 32 from 36, and if the grafts are then put into supers for finishing, (and do mark the super in some way otherwise the mess is horrendous) then the bees can be used for another batych of cells. 

The bees when finished can be given a cell or shook into a weak colony to give it a boost after of course caging the incumbent queen. 

I set up my first box this afternoon with 9 brood frames shook in. Grafting tomorrow. 

PH

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## mbc

> Yes indeed - I was writing from memory (never a good idea) - and forgot to include that bit. The queen is indeed caged whilst the colonies are 'trans-located' (some 36 hours) as a precaution. Thanks for flagging that up.


I wouldnt worry about caging the queens unless they were particularly valuable, highly unlikely either would be lost.  Swapping strong and weak colony positions is still taught as a valid method of early season equalising and it is very unusual to cause queen loss with this maneuver.
I like the simplicity of the manipulation( 'The British Bee-Keepers Guide Book' by T.W. Cowan), but is it really simpler and easier than just putting most of the brood and all of the bees from a full box into a nuc to force swarm cells?

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## mbc

> This is the Wilkinson and Brown paper


"We have used the queenright method successfully with different races/types of honey bee including Apis mellifera ligustica, Apis mellifera carnica, and Buckfast bees" 
National bee unit ignoring the national bee, again!

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## Little_John

> I wouldnt worry about caging the queens unless they were particularly valuable, highly unlikely either would be lost.  Swapping strong and weak colony positions is still taught as a valid method of early season equalising and it is very unusual to cause queen loss with this maneuver.
> I like the simplicity of the manipulation( 'The British Bee-Keepers Guide Book' by T.W. Cowan), but is it really simpler and easier than just putting most of the brood and all of the bees from a full box into a nuc to force swarm cells?


Cowan writes: "If the queen is not caged we run the risk of losing her, because if the supply of forage has been temporarily checked, the bees returning to the hive will not be filled with honey[sic], and would attack the queen and probably destroy her."

I think there is a risk, but just as you comment - I've often swapped hives around to strengthen a weaker colony - never lost a queen yet by so doing - but then, there's always a first time ... !

Cowan's manipulation ? Well maybe not simpler, but I just thought it was ingenious, especially bearing in mind when it was written. There are quite a few little gems in that book, including the use of quilts over the uppermost frame array in any hive. Who does that these days (except the Warre guys) ?  But with a quilt in place, the practice of inserting matchsticks under the crown board to increase ventilation takes on a whole new complexion.

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## Rosie

I know of about 6 different people who are trying my system this year.  As far as I know nobody, other than me, has tried it and I am looking forward to hearing if others find it as simple and reliable as I do.

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## nemphlar

Had a go at grafting in Tuesday's horrible weather, had the Harden box set up as normal, but having read the latest on the forum and working on the principle that more is better. I set the top box as instructed but fitted the snellgrove board facing front and reversed the bottom brood box entrance, bees hanging out the front.
Despite an array of grafting tools and a steady hand I'm struggling to clearly see the smaller larvae, there's a pair of magnifying glasses on the way to try, anyone used them?

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## drumgerry

I was thinking of doing the same Nemphlar only with my recently made Cloake board.  Need to check whether I'm likely to have enough bees to fill my Apideas before I get started though!

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## mbc

> I know of about 6 different people who are trying *my system* this year.  As far as I know nobody, other than me, has tried it and I am looking forward to hearing if others find it as simple and reliable as I do.


Link

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## Little_John

> Despite an array of grafting tools and a steady hand I'm struggling to clearly see the smaller larvae, *there's a pair of magnifying glasses on the way to try, anyone used them?*


If they're anything like the ones I bought from China, ex-Ebay - they're completely insane !  Each eye is provided with it's own optic, complete with illumination from the side ... yeah, looks like 'just the ticket' ... until you realise that the optics are not focussed together on one spot, but each has it's own independent field of view - so each eye is looking at completely different parts of the comb. Which would be ok if you just happen to have a 'split-brain' - but for the rest of us mortals, they're pretty-much useless to use 'as intended'.

I suppose you could use just one optic at a time - but I haven't bothered.  Have taken to using cell-punching instead.

Although my eyesight is beginning to fail, I might attempt grafting again with the aid of this gizmo:
http://www.romanblack.com/VGA_microscope/VGAmic.htm
which looks like it has a good depth of field too, which many cheapo optics don't.

LJ

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## mbc

> - they're completely insane !  Each eye is provided with it's own optic, complete with illumination from the side ...


I agree.
I'm fortunate enough not to need them, but people who do need a little magnifying help would do better with plain x2 reading glasses rather than going for the terminator look.  Good light is equally important and can be provided by the sun, an led headtorch or a mini led flashlight.

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## Rosie

> Link



http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-queen-rearing

I see that was written in 2012 so I have another year's experience with it since then.  These days I usually get 17 or 18 queens out of 20 grafts.  I never thought I would ever achieve that when I was using other methods.

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## drumgerry

Got a couple of questions about your system Steve but I'll ask them on your thread if you don't mind.

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## mbc

> http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-queen-rearing
> 
> I see that was written in 2012 so I have another year's experience with it since then.  These days I usually get 17 or 18 queens out of 20 grafts.  I never thought I would ever achieve that when I was using other methods.


Many thanks, an interesting read on a rainy afternoon, there is indeed a whole lot of Rosie!  A neat system.

Edit: a quick browse of that thread prompted me to visit the buzzy bee shop for some goodies but I happened to remember the new man lake uk site and cross checked for pricing on jzbz stuff and FYI man lake is cheaper!
BBS jzbz cage £2
ML  10 x jzbz cage £2.10!

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## Poly Hive

Re the glasses for magnifying from Ebay I too bought and sheesh waste of money. Rubbish. 

FWIW Bernard Mobus used and so do I a non queen right box of shook bees to cell start and then moved the started larvae into supers to finish off. A good starter box will (my best ever was 32 from 36 offered) see you right and as the cells are started over night then do another batch the next day though the results are consistently poorer the 2nd time. Works for me, provided of course I dinna shake in a queen.... *blush*

PH

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## nemphlar

Checked my first grafts of the year b!!!!r all, clumsy effort. My magnifying glasses have arrived, they do focus on a common point but even the *10 needs you to be pretty close about 4 inches. Might need to train the daughter.

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## Little_John

> Checked my first grafts of the year b!!!!r all, clumsy effort. *My magnifying glasses have arrived, they do focus on a common point* but even the *10 needs you to be pretty close about 4 inches. Might need to train the daughter.


Well - you made a much better choice than the one I made !  Any chance of a pic ?  I wouldn't mind a second attempt at mag glasses, now I know what NOT to buy.

In the meanwhile - I've just ordered a webcam off Ebay, to attempt the sort of thing that RomanBlack (see earlier link) made, but for much less cost. Will need a computer hooked-up as it's USB, bit that's ok ...  Got the idea from www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyQmVHcAMsI which is a bit 'men behaving badly' towards the end, but I think the basic idea is sound. Worth a try for a couple of quid anyway.

LJ

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## Jon

At the moment I have a queenless nuc I am using as a starter and I transfer the started cells to a double brood box queenright finisher after 24 hours and that seems to be working well. The grafts are introduced to the nuc with the cell bar between 2 frames of open brood which concentrates all the nurse bees.
The first batch was introduced just an hour after removing the queen and they started ten cells.
The queen is in the bottom box below the excluder.
I put 10 cells into apideas yesterday and I have another 18 started.
I am always pleased to get anything started early like this, as June and July is the main queenrearing season.

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## fatshark

Checked grafts yesterday from our "beginners course" where - despite the larval frame being collected in the rain, handled in the cold and variously mistreated - we've got ~50% take. Some had never grafted before so I'm pleased with the success rate.

Warmer weather predicted from Wednesday which is when I'll be starting.

Jon … are you getting better 'take' in a swarm box starter than the standard Ben Harden setup?

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## Jon

> Jon … are you getting better 'take' in a swarm box starter than the standard Ben Harden setup?


Much the same, but I find early season the Ben Harden setup does not work so well for starting cells.
A queenright colony which would only start a couple of cells will finish 20 if they are started elsewhere.

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## nemphlar

Sorry   LJ I use an iPad in the house and I can't seem to get a picture uploaded it's Watch repair Magnifier(upgraded version) No 9892G made in China and from ebay

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