# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Scottish Bee Health Surveillance report

## gavin

The Scottish Government have a news release here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...eybees06062013

which includes this report on last year's surveillance exercise:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00423966.pdf

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## drumgerry

I participated in the survey and had the bee inspector look at my bees last year and sent a floor insert off to be analysed.  Right now I'm pretty annoyed and won't participate in another of these.  It's a bit rich to be using a survey of amateur beekeepers to justify the £200k subsidy to bee farmers.  Where's the help we need?  I've said it many times before but the money would be better spent on improving our beekeeping infrastructure - something to benefit us all rather than what will likely be mass imports doomed to die out next winter

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## gavin

> I participated in the survey and had the bee inspector look at my bees last year and sent a floor insert off to be analysed.  Right now I'm pretty annoyed and won't participate in another of these.  It's a bit rich to be using a survey of amateur beekeepers to justify the £200k subsidy to bee farmers.  Where's the help we need?  I've said it many times before but the money would be better spent on improving our beekeeping infrastructure - something to benefit us all rather than what will likely be mass imports doomed to die out next winter


Felt like saying - hey, steady on there - but no.  You are right.  Mr Lochhead used a survey of amateur beekeepers to justify throwing money at commercial beekeepers so that they can import lots of foreign bees.  The survey seemed to give low losses amongst the survey amateurs in Tayside, yet that is where many, perhaps most, of the imported stocks are going - some of them presumably to an operation that showed a truly shocking level of losses.  And yes, that was in Tayside too.  [Edit - not actually true, S Aberdeenshire]

However the real position is that losses here have been high-ish, and the apparent low losses is probably due to a small number of beekeepers being sampled.  I'm one and my losses were pretty average.  Our association is now collecting its own data on losses locally and maybe we'll be able to say something more definitive soon.  

There is a lot that is wrong there.  Perhaps the first thing to do is to ensure that the leadership of the SBA are well aware of this disquiet, and realise that they should be lobbying for things to be very different in future.  Are they?  What did you think of Phil's comment in the magazine alongside the announcement of the Scottish Government import subsidy?   

However .... the bee health survey is a good thing, no?  With good people running it.  It is just a great pity that it has been used it to justify something that will be to the detriment of beekeeping as a whole in Scotland - and not something with real lasting benefit.  

Maybe it is time to have that chat you were planning with Richard Lochhead.

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## gavin

Here's an interesting piece on the beekeeping of the 65 beekeepers sampled:

'Most beekeepers (58%) manage a small number of colonies (five or fewer); a statistic reflected by
data gathered on BeeBase. Only five of the beekeepers questioned (8%) managed 20 or more
colonies (Figure 2). When asked about their plans for the future, half (49%) planned to increase
the number of colonies managed, and only 5% planned to reduce their apiary size. When
replenishing stocks, most (71%) source their bees locally using either their own breeding
programme or local suppliers, and only 3% had bought bees from overseas.'

Only 3% (ie two) had bought bees from overseas.

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## gavin

'These figures equate to a total overwintering loss of
11% colonies across Scotland during 2011-12 and 32% during 2012-13 (Figure 4).'

So why are folk claiming that more than half the bees in Scotland have died?  Is that because the commercial losses are (bucking the trend internationally) worse than the hobbyists?

Also, the Dundee University/SBA survey reports dramatic losses in the hobby sector.  30% was it (in 2011-12)?  Much larger than this survey would suggest, near enough three fold in fact.  The data in the SG report come from a random sample of BeeBase registrations whereas the Dundee University stuff comes from self-reporting from those motivated enough to send their returns to Dundee University.  Interesting contrast.

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## gavin

I don't see mention of Fife in the SG report.  Wasn't that an area singled out by C Connolly for its particularly high rate of losses?

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## The Drone Ranger

I think losses have been high Gavin 
Several folk have approached me about bees saying they lost most or all of their bees
Although they would hardly ring me to say they had plenty bees, I suppose  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

> There is a lot that is wrong there.  Perhaps the first thing to do is to ensure that the leadership of the SBA are well aware of this disquiet, and realise that they should be lobbying for things to be very different in future.  Are they?  What did you think of Phil's comment in the magazine alongside the announcement of the Scottish Government import subsidy?   
> 
> However .... the bee health survey is a good thing, no?  With good people running it.  It is just a great pity that it has been used it to justify something that will be to the detriment of beekeeping as a whole in Scotland - and not something with real lasting benefit.  
> 
> Maybe it is time to have that chat you were planning with Richard Lochhead.


Gavin I confess to severe bemusement at Phil's comment in the magazine that  *"hobby beekeepers....already get the benefit of EU money from the CAP system"*.  Eh?! What am I missing here?  If there's money coming from the EU where is it and where is it going?  Or is he just referring to the "benefit" we get from cheaper food prices, along with the rest of the population, from farming subsidies?  Do we get our SBA insurance subsidised by the EU? Is that it?  In any case there seems to be money for anyone who can lobby hard enough as in this case so why don't the SBA pull their finger out and do likewise?

And as to why the SBA aren't screaming from the rooftops about this £200k subsidy and the consequent imports again I'm at a loss.  We need someone to get hold of the politicians and tell them they've got it all wrong.  That we need money for something long term and not money to just flush down the bee farmers toilet.  From where I'm sitting I can't see much being done.  Has anything negative about this subsidy been said by the SBA?

And yes my contact with the minister is being initiated as we speak!

Bee health survey - a good thing yes.  But I will not participate again if all it's going to be used for is to justify some puff scheme to bail out commercial operators who have shown time and again they don't have the long term interests of Scotlands bees and beekeepers at heart.

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## Bumble

> Bee health survey - a good thing yes.  But I will not participate again if all it's going to be used for is to justify some puff scheme to bail out commercial operators who have shown time and again they don't have the long term interests of Scotlands bees and beekeepers at heart.


Not exactly the same thing, but we were circulated Chris Connolly's "Winter Loss Survey" via the County Secretary, the closing date was the end of May. Does anybody know how long it will take him to collate the information?

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## The Drone Ranger

Could it be the hobby beekeeper benefit is oil seed rape subsidy ?
Which of course we pay for, and farmers receive and spend on our behalf, saving us the trouble
There's a lot to be thankful for  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

DR - If that's the benefit we get from the CAP then I'm laughing out loud.  I really am.  That would simply be a ridiculous stretch of the truth to say we're benefiting in that way.  Plus there's not a peck of OSR in Strathspey till you get to the absolute lower reaches.  I'm sure it's the same for a lot of Highland beekeepers.

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## Trog

Maybe it helps to fund the bee inspectors and SASA or SAC?  All of great benefit to hobby beekeepers.

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## drumgerry

And even more of a benefit to commercial beekeepers if the presentation on the foulbrood outbreaks by our bee inspector is anything to go by.  By the sounds of it most of at least one summer spent by a team of inspectors looking at many hundreds of commercial beekeepers' hives in Aberdeenshire, Angus and the Highlands - the costs met by the taxpayer must have run into 10s of thousands.

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## The Drone Ranger

I agree with you Drumgerry therefor I can only conclude that our glorious leader has slipped his leash (only Kidding Phil)

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## drumgerry

I don't mean it to seem like I'm trying to make Phil a scapegoat for this £200k subsidy.  I'm really not.  It just beggars belief that the politicians could have got this so wrong and no-one from the SBA is saying anything (at least till I can make contact with Richard Lochhead!).  And all off the back of some effective lobbying.

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## Trog

Just because things don't necessarily go the way we might want doesn't mean folk aren't negotiating, lobbying and the rest in the background, surely?

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## drumgerry

That's an optimistic take on things Trog and I hope you're right.  But the silence on this issue has been deafening.  And that comment about hobby beekeepers and the CAP is not very helpful - sorry Phil.  Maybe it needs a statement from the SBA on just what, if anything, is being done on our behalf.  Communication with the membership is not a strong point it must be said.

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## The Drone Ranger

The bee farmers Ass is pretty powerful it seems
Drumgerry is right though there is an assumption that any spending on beekeeping should be welcomed
Unfortunately that's not true in the case of spending Gov cash on businesses who could insure themselves
When the lay person reads £200K is going to bee Farmers they rightly think "what the Heck's that all about"
Employment -- no 
Exports no -- imports yes
Pollination benefits - no
Community -no
Fact is there are no benefits to the Scottish economy whatsoever just a few individuals so it should be opposed
If the cash is to be spent it should go to something useful and beneficial to Scotland and Bees

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## drumgerry

Why isn't the SBA* as powerful* I wonder?

Pretty much in agreement with you there DR.  Bee farming does provide a few jobs though - maybe 50 or so Scotland-wide?  Most seasonal.  Not £200k subsidy's worth.  Maybe a bit of pollination benefit as well.  And doesn't Murray sell his honey to packers so not a distinctive Scottish product being produced there. 

And I think you've hit the nail on the head with *"there is an assumption that any spending on beekeeping should be welcomed"*.  To the politicians they've done their bit.  They've helped the bees.  They get to say so to the bee-hungry media.  Never mind they've probably done the equivalent of using twenty pound notes to light your smoker.

£200k could have achieved so much with a bit of vision behind it. Sad. :Frown:

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## drumgerry

Whoops...think I might be turning into Doris with all the bold bits in the last post!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## The Drone Ranger

> Whoops...think I might be turning into Doris with all the bold bits in the last post!


Not at all 
Gosh I wish a £200K queen rearing project was funded where I could buy expertly bred and raised local(ish) queens for £15 or so
Now I suspect someone is going to say form a local breeding group  :Smile: 
I have one of those 
The members include me and errrr?? me 
Plus everybody elses drones LoL :Smile: 
Perhaps an ideal position would be if the Gov consulted the SBA more and the SBA consulted its members

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## Trog

I wonder why HOBBY beekeepers expect to be subsidised by the government at all?  It's one thing for folk who make their living in agriculture (and bee farming is an agricultural activity) to receive subsidies like all the other farmers but would one expect the government to fund the Dr Who Appreciation Society, the Morris Minor Owners Club, the Spaniel Breeders' Association?  Yes, our activities are beneficial to the environment but on that basis I would expect payouts for my lovely wildflower meadows, recycling habits and much more.

Also worth remembering that the SBA is run by VOLUNTEERS, many of whom are also heavily involved in their local associations, teaching, mentoring new beekeepers, trying to run their own apiaries while raising nucs to help beginners ... and some even have full-time jobs and family to look after.

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## drumgerry

I don't think anyone is suggesting we get subsidised Trog.  But don't you agree that there has to be an overall strategy for Scotland's bees?  And who is to implement that  strategy if not the people with the right experience ie hobby beekeepers?  If you think that we can just leave it all to people's goodwill and voluntaryism then we're clearly not on the same page.  The Scottish government think that Scotland's bees are worth investing in - so why not go about it in a way that benefits all of Scotland's beekeepers rather than a handful of commercial operators?

And the SBA are our national beekeeping body.  I pay my £30 a year and I have a right to a say in how things proceed.  Democracy at work and all that.  If I think not enough is being done am I not entitled to say that?  Should I just shut up and accept everything that happens because the committee is made up of volunteers?

And btw - all of those things you listed I'm doing myself with the added complication of a disabled child.  So I know all about putting the work in for a greater good.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Trog
I think when Government spends money the general idea is seed money
The idea of subsidy or cash injections is that the economy or society benefits from it
Otherwise they could just buy me a new car because I need one and have a farm number for my smallholding 
So commercial Beekeeping might have a case but it's not a strong one 
It wont generate employment, economic activity, or social benefits and with no strings attached will benefit New Zealand far more than UK

Sadly the interests of Bee Farming and beekeepers generally are not in line.
Some beekeepers want a return to the fabled black bee of yesteryear 
Some Just want the local bees to prevail and disease risk etc minimised
Me I just want the quiet life and a cure for chalkbrood  :Smile:  

Of course Bee farming activities don't, won't, can't  align with that (take you pick)
So it is best to say that rather than be dragged reluctantly into supporting subsidies just because beekeeping is involved we feel we should
If SBA campaigned for a ban on imports, and it looked like succeeding The Bee Farmers Association would be the first to say nay and thrice nay
If the outcomes were positive for Scotland's economy, and beekeeping in general I think most people would be happy enough to see it happen
another long boring post by me --don't you just hate it when that happens  :Smile: 

PS I don't pay my £30 a year anymore so, although I can express disappointment, I have already voted with my feet as they say

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## Trog

Well, guys, rather than moaning about perceived lack of action by SBA, here's a suggestion.  Go online and look for any subsidies/concessions/aid available to crofters who are, to a large extent, hobby farmers.  Is there anything there we could use to make a case for SG help for hobby beekeepers?  A bit of creative lateral thinking is in order perhaps.

For myself, having come indoors to cool off after hauling the shopping up the hill, I'm away to weed the shallots before the midges get any worse!

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## Trog

> I don't think anyone is suggesting we get subsidised Trog.  But don't you agree that there has to be an overall strategy for Scotland's bees?  And who is to implement that  strategy if not the people with the right experience ie hobby beekeepers?  If you think that we can just leave it all to people's goodwill and voluntaryism then we're clearly not on the same page.  The Scottish government think that Scotland's bees are worth investing in - so why not go about it in a way that benefits all of Scotland's beekeepers rather than a handful of commercial operators?
> 
> And the SBA are our national beekeeping body.  I pay my £30 a year and I have a right to a say in how things proceed.  Democracy at work and all that.  If I think not enough is being done am I not entitled to say that?  Should I just shut up and accept everything that happens because the committee is made up of volunteers?
> 
> And btw - all of those things you listed I'm doing myself with the added complication of a disabled child.  So I know all about putting the work in for a greater good.


These .... things .... take .... time.  SG doesn't move quickly.  Negotiations can be long and drawn out.  Perhaps as an Islander I have learned to be patient and not get all hot and bothered if I don't get what I want immediately!  Just trying to add another angle to the debate.

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## drumgerry

Hey Trog we're all entitled to our point of view and that includes you! :Smile: 

Patience.....hmmmm.  Not sure about that.  The reason we're talking about this just now and the reason something needs done now is this £200k which has been announced.  I think that things have been drifting for many years or even decades.  We've been muddling along and relying on people's generosity with their time and effort.  But we're at a moment where with a bit of vision and funding things could be made better for everyone.  That needs to come from the SBA and government.  People like me jumping up and down and asking for it to happen isn't going to cut it I don't think.  Having said that if I lived in the Central Belt and had different family circumstances I'd get involved with the SBA and take an active hand in this.  I do what I can in my own way but that's about it.

So.....unless I can think of anything more which I can usefully add I'll drop out of this thread as I feel I've made my thoughts pretty clear now!

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## The Drone Ranger

Earthing up potatoes for me today
Bad news is rain is helping all the weed seedlings re-root now
Re the SBA and being active in running it etc I think it was Churchill who said
" They also serve who only sit and pay"

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## Trog

OK, Drumgerry, what do you want money for?  And I mean your association as we can't expect SG to hand out money to individuals. How much do you need?

As for being more involved, distance is no object - just check out the magazine to see where the ICT convener, bee health convener and a couple of area reps live!  The AGM was available on Skype this year.  All the email addresses are on the inside front page, too, so you can contact anyone you fancy talking to.  You could even write to the magazine to get your views aired more widely than in here.

[Trog - trying to be helpful and constructive ...]

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## drumgerry

Ok  Trog...I guess I have to add something!

You maybe missed the bit where I said I have a disabled child and the limits that places on how involved I can get.  I am involved at a local level and this year helped to start a new association in my area.

*I* don't want any money!  It's not about the money (cue Jessie J!).  Well it is a bit.  I've said this all before on the forum so I'm going to repeat myself - sorry.  My preference is for a strategy to be developed and implemented which gets us to a point where in Scotland we become self-sufficient in bees.  Sounds a bit vague maybe.  The specific sorts of things I want to happen are the choice to be made at a Scottish government and SBA level to do everything we can to help our native bees.  At a practical level the sort of stuff I'd like to see in place are the setting up of queen breeding stations for the breeding of native bees and the proper provision of training and equipment to associations or individuals (not sure what the problem is with individuals getting such help) to allow them to breed queens and produce nucs.  Not something which can happen overnight I accept but to take steps in that direction and to make the choice that it's the way to go needs to happen now.

Oh it'll never happen I can hear people saying but they do it in Germany and Switzerland for example so why not here?  The simple fact is that things are not working at the moment.  Winter losses are high and there are no bees to replace them and no systems in place to provide bees.  So the commercial guys import what they need.  And beginners buy nucs headed by Buckfasts or Carnies bred in mainland Europe.  Something needs to change and here's the Scottish government throwing £200k at a situation which will not be solved by such a short term solution.  If next winter's as bad the Bee Farmers Association will be lobbying for help again.

I suspect that my views are being aired widely enough on this forum and I don't want to get involved in a "letters page" slanging match.  They are tiresome to read and wasteful of magazine space!

So there you have it.  My plan to solve Scotland's beekeeping ills!   :Smile:

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## Trog

Drumgerry, you're preaching to the converted as far as I'm concerned.  I personally think you have a good idea and would love you to write what you've just posted - and a bit more - and send it in as a letter to the magazine.  That has a much wider readership than here (sorry Gavin!). If you have more you want to say, make it into an article and submit that.  I do appreciate the limitations of being tied to home for whatever reason but these days with the internet we're a lot less isolated than we used to be.  You could write to anyone on the Exec or your area rep, or the whole lot.  Meanwhile there's plenty of money out there for local associations to get going with breeding local bees - it just takes someone with the time and energy to set it up and keep it going, the latter being the hardest bit!

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## drumgerry

Aye you're right Trog.  Maybe I should.  At least it would make a change from the endless exchanges between Eric and A N Other about pesticides.  To me this is the real issue facing Scotland's bees.  Not Neonics, not GM crops not CCD - red herrings all.  If we were self sufficient and had a thriving bee breeding scenario where it was one of the things you learn in your first season as a beekeeper rather than the perception of it as a mysterious dark art - then things could only be better for all of us.  Maybe I'm just a dreamer (cue John Lennon this time!) but I hope I'm not the only one - lol!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Drumgerry, you're preaching to the converted as far as I'm concerned.  I personally think you have a good idea and would love you to write what you've just posted - and a bit more - and send it in as a letter to the magazine.  That has a much wider readership than here (sorry Gavin!). If you have more you want to say, make it into an article and submit that.  I do appreciate the limitations of being tied to home for whatever reason but these days with the internet we're a lot less isolated than we used to be.  You could write to anyone on the Exec or your area rep, or the whole lot.  Meanwhile there's plenty of money out there for local associations to get going with breeding local bees - it just takes someone with the time and energy to set it up and keep it going, the latter being the hardest bit!


The right breeding stock is important as well though and that's a difficult problem
To get better bees you probably need several elements, location, foundation stock, skill, and commitment  

Primarily bees that are gentle (easy) productive (not so easy) disease resistant (tricky)
If you also include Wing plots and the restriction the bees must be locally sourced

Then mating conditions that favour them staying that way without being located in a bee keeping desert 
So all that can be and is being done but not in many locations
Hence the reason that many people call for bee imports to be curtailed

That sounds a bit doom and gloom but it's not meant to be I am with Drumgerry it needs an overall strategy

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## gavin

Gerry, let's ensure that at the November Council meeting (you can attend by Skype if you prefer, but in person would be ideal) there is a proper discussion and vote on: a) SBA policy on native and near-native honeybees, and b) SBA policy on imports by members, by LAs and by bee farmers.  Maybe we can start the discussion in the magazine. Trog is right about it being the vehicle to reach the membership.

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## Jon

> If you also include Wing plots and the restriction the bees must be locally sourced


Actually the variation _within_ AMM populations is much greater than the variation _between_ them so that is not strictly true.




> In the present paper, we have shown that several relatively
> pure populations of  A. m. mellifera
> still exist in northwest Europe. These populations are genetically quite homogenous
> as most of their genetic variation occurs within popula-
> tions and not between populations.



Molecular Ecology (2005) 14

Varying degrees of Apis mellifera ligustica introgression in
protected populations of the black honeybee, Apis mellifera
mellifera, in northwest Europe
ANNETTE B. JENSEN et al




> Some beekeepers want a return to the fabled black bee of yesteryear


Yesteryear!!
To paraphrase Gerry Adams, and contradict the brother Adam, who claimed Isle of Wight disease wiped out the native bee population, AMM never went away you know.
And parts of Scotland are still strongholds - in areas where the commercial beekeepers or the fast buck nuc sellers have not wrecked local breeding efforts by swamping the area with imports.

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## Jimbo

Do you not think the 200k would have been better spent on some bee research like the varroa knockout gene work at Aberdeen or to extend the pilot study of Acarine in the Scottish bee population or used to help with plotting of the Amm areas or varroa free areas in Scotland and to protect these areas with some publicity material or some DNA/Wing  morphometry work to identify the pure bee stocks or to help fund the introduction of a bee keeping module into the undergraduate vet degree courses like Glasgow University is trying to do to make vets more aware about beekeeping and beekeeping treatments. There are lots of other ideas that I am certain researchers and scientists could come up with and which the SBA could also be involved in.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Gerry, let's ensure that at the November Council meeting (you can attend by Skype if you prefer, but in person would be ideal) there is a proper discussion and vote on: a) SBA policy on native and near-native honeybees, and b) SBA policy on imports by members, by LAs and by bee farmers.  Maybe we can start the discussion in the magazine. Trog is right about it being the vehicle to reach the membership.


Gavin you must be faced with the problem of improving stocks in an area flooded by imports and random crossing
Grafting helps but only Artificial Insemination would give the ESBA apiary a fighting chance
Whats your take on getting suitable foundation material does it have to be local (how close is local)
If you get stocks you are happy with how can you retain the qualities of those founders when all around the migratory beekeeping is filling the sky with drones you don't want
It would seem the main area of imports is commercial so are they the key can they operate without importing queens ?

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## drumgerry

Right guys I've taken the plunge and sent a letter to Nigel at the magazine.  Slight about face on my part but there you go.  This lady is for turning!  




I can probably make a one off Perth meeting in person Gavin.  And you can probably tell I feel quite strongly about this!

Cheers, Gerry (a bloke!)

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## Jon

Amen to that Jimbo.
We are looking at ideas for our long term strategy in the Irish Native bee group and if we had £200,000 on the table, I imagine we could develop quite an interesting programme.
Giving that amount of money to commercial beefarmers to make good recent winter losses with imports is a scandal.
What questions were asked about why their losses were so high? - before awarding that amount of taxpayer money?
As someone pointed out earlier, 'save the bees' is flavour of the month and there is a distinct sense of jumping on the bandwagon by ignorant politicians here.

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## The Drone Ranger

> To paraphrase Gerry Adams and contradict the brother, AMM never went away you know.
> And parts of Scotland are still strongholds - in areas where the commercial beekeepers or the fast buck nuc sellers have not wrecked local breeding efforts by swamping the area with imports.


Ok lets say that's true my questions would be 
In an area where imports are common and ongoing year after year can bee keepers buy queens from a breeder in an AMM rich location although that is not local
Once the queen is installed what method exists to stop subsequent daughter queens from out crossing with unsuitable drones

That's the basic problem and the only route out is to stop importing and allow bee populations first to normalise then allow queen sales across Scotland not just from the next door beekeeper

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## The Drone Ranger

Jimbo your £200K spend gets my vote

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## gavin

Unrealistic I'm afraid.  The cash is to try to keep a Scottish Food and Drink industry afloat and research funds come from a different pot.  That pot already gave £500,000 to the fund for the IPI projects (Scotland's share of that pot largely comes to Dundee University).  Some things to remember.  Commercial beekeeping is of some importance (culturally if not economically) and isn't in a good shape at the moment.  Government probably were trying to do the right thing based on the evidence available to them.  The lobbying by the bee farmers was certainly directed at getting cash for imports; the main SBA contribution in my view probably did not argue against this.  I'm with much of the opinion on this thread, but don't wish to be divisive any more than is necessary.  However it seems crucial to me that the SBA members get a chance to speak clearly on how hard, if at all, the organisation should be doing something to shift beekeeping as a whole in Scotland away, well away, from the position it is in now.

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## Jon

> In an area where imports are common and ongoing year after year can bee keepers buy queens from a breeder in an AMM rich location although that is not local


That's up to you. I would not have a problem with it.
If you accept the premise of that Jensen paper I linked to above, there are not very significant differences between the remaining AMM populations.
ie, there is unlikely to be such as thing as a Scottish AMM, or an Irish, English or a Welsh variant.
The problem with AMM is finding pure race samples which have not hybridised with Ligustica or Carnica.
Wing morphometry helps here, but it is only a rough and ready tool, and it becomes redundant once it is used as a selection criteria for queens as you will inevitably be selecting for wing pattern very strongly as opposed to selecting for all the other AMM characteristics. 



> Once the queen is installed what method exists to stop subsequent daughter queens from out crossing with unsuitable drones


-drone flooding
-II
-isolated mating sites
-lobby against the imports. (at a minimum don't fund them!)




> the only route out is to stop importing and allow bee populations first to normalise then allow queen sales across Scotland not just from the next door beekeeper


I agree. That would be a big step forward.
The main step is to stop stirring up the gene pool with fresh waves of imports.

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## drumgerry

Gavin I'm not sure I get the cultural importance of commercial beekeeping.  It strikes me as an "industry" quite removed from the day to day lives of most Scots.  But the critical thing to me is this - if commercial beekeeping cannot be carried out in a sustainable manner and its operators choose not to adapt to a sustainable business model then perhaps it needs to be allowed to die a natural death and its employees find other sources of work.  Harsh perhaps but I don't see it like upland sheep farming for example where depopulation of rural communities would happen together with environmental changes were it not given some support.

And although I'm in sympathy with Jimbo's alternative uses for the £200k I believe we're facing a central, unremitting problem which needs to be addressed above all others - there's no bees!  Well there's none available to people who want some.  For example, we say to beginners to buy locally and when they try to do so are usually told by associations that everyone's had a hard winter and no-one has any for sale.  I believe this is the biggest problem we face and the one which needs to be addressed.

I don't particularly see a problem with sourcing genetic material from elsewhere in Scotland or indeed the British Isles.  I don't think we're in a position to be choosy enough to insist on only using genetic stock from a particular area.

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## The Drone Ranger

> .  
>  I believe we're facing a central, unremitting problem which needs to be addressed above all others - there's no bees!  
> we say to beginners to buy locally and when they try to do so are usually told by associations that everyone's had a hard winter and no-one has any for sale. 
>  I believe this is the biggest problem we face and the one which needs to be addressed.
> 
> I don't particularly see a problem with sourcing genetic material from elsewhere in Scotland or indeed the British Isles.  I don't think we're in a position to be choosy enough to insist on only using genetic stock from a particular area.


Hi Drumgerry
That is the first step because if new beekeepers can get bees without imports then that's at least in the right direction
I worry about people getting ill tempered cast offs from someone who has no breeding expertise whatsoever but is "local" (like me LOL! )
So you are right, Local associations are the route for bee buying, because in some areas varroa free or AMM, bees bought from a UK breeder would be bad news
In other areas bees bred in Scotland by a commercial breeder or two would be improving the situation, Perthshire Angus etc
Only the local associations know and if they are the first port of call for bees they can either supply or buy as needed

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## gavin

Gerry, if I could trim the first couple of minutes off this one I would (from way back in the days when I still used Marigolds), but after the introduction the rest of the video shows what the government (central and local) consider to be the commercial side of beekeeping in Scotland.  The 'iconic Scottish product' which Murray mentioned is widely recognised.  That year local authorities and Scottish Enterprise funded 'restocking' which was not in the public view as much as the current one. Completely NZ carnies I think.  This time (note: now and next spring too not just a 2013 thing) it appears to be a mix but heavily Amm from the Pyrennes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8181979.stm
Google for 'Scottish Heather Honey' and you'll get a fuller picture. 
Where would your average punter buy his Scottish heather honey for his (or her) cranachan?
So I'd like a sea-change in attitudes to importing stock in Scottish commercial (and some hobby) circles, but I'd like that to happen in collaboration with bee farmers.  The big guys are perhaps not all wedded to imports as you might imagine, so talking is important.
Importing Irish Amm to Scotland - why?!  Don't we have enough here?  Is it just a question of access to stocks?  Why do you think lowland Irish stock is adapted to short-season Highland conditions?  We seem to know so little of the genetic make-up of bees in Scotland, and that is a great pity.  If Ireland to the Highlands is OK, then were the old imports from the Netherlands OK too?  What about Brittany, another nice Celtic land?!  And if Brittany is OK, why not Amm from the Pyrennes?
These days I'm thinking locally adapted stock, based heavily on local Amm is the only thing practical for us in Tayside.  Even with the use of a distant isolated mating site it would be impossible to keep anything 100% pure. 
Gavin (still struggling with line returns!)

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## drumgerry

I appreciate what you're saying about heather honey Gavin.  Not sure it's worth £200k and any future bailouts.  It may cease as Murray puts it to be a mass market product but I'm not sure I'd consider that a bad thing.  But I should be clear on this - I don't want commercial operators to go out of business.  What I want is for them to put their businesses on a sustainable footing and for all of us commercial and hobby alike to get on the same page.  A dialogue has to start but that has to be the central guiding principle.

And I could take a few examples of places in Ireland, Wales and England with climates very similar to many places in Scotland where it wouldn't be such a challenge for their bees to adapt.  Thinking Connemara and Argyle, Belfast area and the Glasgow area - you get the picture. I think when we're talking about continental or Alpine climates it's a completely different ball game.  Of course we should be confining ourselves to Scottish genetics but that's going to take some organising.  So that should maybe be a central part of the sea change you/we are talking about.

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## Jon

The thing is, Bibba members have been swapping queens around all parts of the UK and Ireland for decades so the chances of one part having AMM very different from another is remote.
There was some mention of that in the Jensen paper as well.
There are ecotypes which are more adapted to early flows or late heather flows in some places and this is reflected in when colonies peak and swarm.
There are two main issues with imports, one is the problems associated with stirring up the gene pool by introducing several different sub species, and the other is the risk of spreading disease, especially the risk of bringing in a new pathogen.

Gavin, I seriously doubt if Scotland has a distinctive AMM.
Remember those old videos from the 1930s which showed AMM packages coming in from France.

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## The Drone Ranger

Because it's the queen rearing season and I've got a couple copies of Snelgrove's "Queen rearing" I was reading this and checked out his chapter on heredity in bees 
.
bearing in mind the first edition is 1946 he is describing the same problems as there are now with random crossing
Also he goes on to say which races his father tried including Italians Cyprian etc
A great thing that wouldn't happen now is on P124 where a small correction slip  is bound into the book putting right an error
Anyway in the 1966 reprint which is my reading/working copy I discovered a small brochure which I had forgotten was there
Madoc Apiaries Tottington, Thetford, Norfolk  --lots of hives etc for sale and bees here's an extract of the sales pitch
"Large and regular honey crops are the source of our main income our bees are bred for honey production above everything"
"We only use the Melcombe bee in our own honey producing apiaries and we only offer this one strain "
"....other strains and races inferior to the Melcombe"
1 Melcombe Italian Queen  __ Apr/May 10/-  __Jun onwards7/6
lots more prices for nucs etc
This would be prior to 1966 I believe and they only sell Italian queens (because they are the ones in demand)

On the plus side Snelgrove believed (wrongly I think) that once new introductions stopped the bees bred their way back to the separate races naturally
In particular back to the British Black as he would have considered it and this was a long time after the Isle of Wight disease so there were still plenty black bees in 1945 which at least looked the part  :Smile: 
He also surmised that this could be hastened (correctly I believe) by queens introduced in sequential years ie first one is used to produce daughters who's drones are pure the following year 
In that second year another unrelated pure mother who's queen daughters mate with the now pure drones  --- sorted 
Why is it never that easy ?  :Smile:

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## Gscot

My 2 colonys + 2 Nucs came thro; the winter were doing ok when we had a mild spell in March after which it stayed cold till middle of May . The 2 nucs just got less and less bees and just away died with lack of bees
The 2 colonys became very weak just about at tipping point but have started to recover now but will be of no use for honey production or splitting will take a full season to recover unless I add frames of brood and bees.
Now i tried the full of Scotland and North England to purchase a nuc or some frames of brood and bees in April and May and as drumgerry said its been a hard winter and no-one has any to sell not even The B-e M-n not taking any more orders
I tried asking forum members with more than 12 hives for any to spare {Was prepared to pay top prices}still no bees to spare sorry.
Found out there,s not much help for the small time beekeeper in Scotland
So now I,m left with 2 colonys which i,m going to let build till next season
I was going to go way down south and get a package of imported bees to boost the the colonys and thought no lets try and source bee sort of local No chance.
If next spring I somehow have a similar situation I will have no hesitation to use imported bees. Within 6 weeks most of the imported bees will have died off and you will be left with your own strain (I think)(if your queen survives) maybe a few loose drones And a full season to look forward to
Not a happy chappy.

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## drumgerry

I think you've summed up the situation facing lots of people rather nicely Gscot.  It's a vicious circle and something needs to be done to break us all out of it.  

Ps - did you mean using imported bees headed by one of your own local queens?

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## Gscot

Hi drumgerry using the imported package bees to boost your own weak colony with your own queen and make it productive with bee numbers and nurse bees so to achieve a few frames of brood

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## Trog

Just thinking aloud ... it seems the problem is drones from imported colonies mating with virgin queens of whatever strain one is trying to breed.  If the bee farmers who are importing were to cull all drone brood from imported queens (and if that were a condition of funding), leaving only their surviving 'local' drone brood (assuming they've not lost every colony they ever had)  and, naturally, that of the surrounding beekeepers with their local strain, would that solve a lot of the problems?  There might also be the benefit of reduced varroa loads (since it seems to favour drone brood) and therefore fewer chemicals needed to control same.

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## drumgerry

I suspect you'd have lots of unhappy colonies if you killed all of their drones Trog.  Maybe shifting drone brood from more native colonies would work better?  But I think you'd proabably run up against the bee farmers fear of such labour-intensive management.

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## The Drone Ranger

If we could come up with a reliable smaller nucleus design that had good insulation and could get away well in spring
I see how exact the treatment of min mating nucs is. 
That whole system is well thought out and there is a formula for success
When it comes to overwinter Nucs it's more a case of do what you like but have a standard unit ready in Spring 
Paynes nucs are OK insulation wise but a bit big I think for the job
The food / stores would be better above the bees perhaps 
Mostly the wooden ones seem intended for temporary use
Could a system of interlocking nucs work where warmth might be shared and stability improved 
How many bees are needed to make it through winter etc

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## mbc

> Hi drumgerry using the imported package bees to boost your own weak colony with your own queen and make it productive with bee numbers and nurse bees so to achieve a few frames of brood


The latest flood of imported packages from the Sardinian firm advertising in the beekeepers quarterly included queenless packages by all accounts.  
Its a tempting thouhgt to add bees to boost overwintered local queens or to avoid having to shake some of your own bees for stocking mini nucs, but I dismissed it as an idea for myself just because it goes against the grain to support imports. More fool me maybe !

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## Trog

I've found the thornes twinstock superb for overwintering two very small  nucs side by side.  The mutual heat seems to help.

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## drumgerry

I set something similar up using a Swienty National poly box and homemade floor last summer Trog.  It worked fine for a while but when I went to give them their oxalic in midwinter they had all moved to one side of the box and were headed by a single queen.  No trace of any bees on the other side to be seen.  I'll try again this summer to see if it can be made to work for me!  

PS - the single nuc came through the winter in superb condition and I sold it to a beginner whom I'm mentoring.  It has roared away so much so an artificial swarm had to be carried out on it this last weekend.

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## Dark Bee

> If we could come up with a reliable smaller nucleus design that had good insulation and could get away well in spring
> ..................................................  .......................................Could a system of interlocking nucs work where warmth might be shared and stability improved 
> How many bees are needed to make it through winter etc


Over many years use here in Shamrockshire, the six frame nuc. has shown that it is more likely to survive and overwinter better than a smaller nuc and has a faster buildup in spring. Four and five frame nucs. will also survive of course, but are less likely to do so than a six frame. A three frame nuc. is excellent for mating and may be easier than apideas for beginners, but it really is too small to consistently survive winter.
Nucs in close proximity to conserve heat is an excellent concept, but you need to head three miles away to move them together!
I have seen some excellent nucs here made from 9" x 2" with 9" deep roofs! I am seriously thinking of making some myself - they survived winter very well.
Another possibility is to use styrofoam sheeting for nucs. the stuff is quite expensive and only half as dense as polyhives, still it would work and the effects of a few coats of masonry paint would be other than cosmetic.  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Dark Bee 
I take your point the poly nuc from paynes will easily get through if its well stocked and fed most winters but it's the sort of brute force rather then science approach

I'm not a Nucleus hive user much so I am just surmising that if some intelligent design was employed along with dense poly, and a management method developed to maximise the success, then instead of 2 or 3 nucs being carried through winter it might be 5 or 6 for the same quantity of available material and bees to start them off
Providing it comes through with a queen and enough bees to make it reliable and ready for sale early season and cheap for newbies and oldbies alike it would be a help

9"x2" sounds like a scaffold board ?  can't see that blowing away in the breeze

Trog 
I need to look in thornes catalog I hadn't hear of the twinstock although have Dark Bee an Drumgerry identified a weakness in that approach ?

mbc 
I think your right importing queenless package bees is a more serious threat to health than just Queens

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## drumgerry

I'd say it's probably harder here than most places in these islands to bring a nuc through the winter but I'm convinced the poly route rather than the ply or wooden route is the way to go.  This past winter (or winterspring Trog!) was the longest one I've experienced and my poly nucs did well.  My wooden ones all died or dwindled to nothing.  So much so I'm taking my wooden nucs out of commission.  Just about to buy another half dozen Paynes nucs which will take me up to 8 of them.  Plus I have the option of splitting a Swienty National.

But the Paynes design with inbuilt feeder is a complete p.i.t.a - bee graveyard is an apt description.  I'm going to get the saw out and remove it and revert to using a frame feeder for them.  Which adds another tenner to the cost of each as I can't be bothered making and sealing 8 x frame feeders.  It'd be nice to have the option to close the floor off and to insulate the roof as well.  I guess for the roof I could use Kingspan in the eke or just  sit a piece of Kingspan on the roof under a brick.  Can't see a way to close the floor - any suggestions?

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## Trog

Droney, the twinstock is, for some reason, not listed among hives and hive parts but in the queen raising section along with apideas, etc.  It has entrances on opposite sides and the divider really fits so no drifting!  I've found it easy to move nucs into bigger boxes; you just put their new boxes either side with the entrances facing the same way as each nuc's entrance and remove the twinstock from between them. Bees have never had any problem relocating by two inches!  My only gripe is the cost as it has to be made up accurately in thornes workshop and can't be bought as a flatpack like the hives.

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## Dark Bee

DR, the nucs with the 2" walls will remain dry and provide good insulation when painted with microporous paint. They have an excellent record of coming through the winter. They are much less expensive than nucs. from the equipment suppliers and more efficient. 
But as always it is for the individual to decide what to use and what works in one area may be less satisfactory elsewhere. What is the problem with the feeder in the Paynes nucs? I know it's not removable and will a float not inhibit suicide attempts by bees?
Remember also that if a small nuc is brought through the winter, buildup is inevitably going to be slow from such a small no of bees.
I am surprised that some enterprising manufacturer is not offering sheets of high density polystyrene for sale.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Droney, the twinstock is, for some reason, not listed among hives and hive parts but in the queen raising section along with apideas, etc.  It has entrances on opposite sides and the divider really fits so no drifting!  I've found it easy to move nucs into bigger boxes; you just put their new boxes either side with the entrances facing the same way as each nuc's entrance and remove the twinstock from between them. Bees have never had any problem relocating by two inches!  My only gripe is the cost as it has to be made up accurately in thornes workshop and can't be bought as a flatpack like the hives.


Found it now Trog I suppose if you cost it against two nucs it looks reasonable
If I could buy the brood body and the two crown boards then use my own roof etc that would be very reasonable
The heat sharing design must help

Drumgerry I put a block of foam rubber in the feeder slot of the Paynes Nuc
The thing I miss most from them is no crown board which means the thick wall acts as like a bee press

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR, the nucs with the 2" walls will remain dry and provide good insulation when painted with microporous paint. They have an excellent record of coming through the winter. They are much less expensive than nucs. from the equipment suppliers and more efficient. 
> But as always it is for the individual to decide what to use and what works in one area may be less satisfactory elsewhere. What is the problem with the feeder in the Paynes nucs? I know it's not removable and will a float not inhibit suicide attempts by bees?
> Remember also that if a small nuc is brought through the winter, buildup is inevitably going to be slow from such a small no of bees.
> I am surprised that some enterprising manufacturer is not offering sheets of high density polystyrene for sale.



Good thoughts Dark Bee plus 2" wood should be easy to screw together 
Do you just use butt joints I made a jig for cutting finger joints in 3/4" hard pine but even that takes a lot of time and hard work with the router bench

The trouble with the feeder slot is the wide midrib crushes bees,when the bees use the syrup they drown in there and the dead bodies sink where the bees never remove them.
When the syrup gets used if the slot is empty they build brace comb in the slot
Finally because of the design you cant get any other type of feeder on the top so the hive needs opening to check or add syrup.
Otherwise I think they are OK still need a crown board though

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## fatshark

> Can't see a way to close the floor - any suggestions?


Why don't you simply stand the box on a block of Kingspan 'inside' the four feet of the Paynes nuc? It should seal the space pretty well, allow you to peak under for mites, debris etc. and provide a reasonably stable platform (the feet can be a bit wobbly anyway ... or is that my hive stand?). I build a Kingspan-containing eke for mine with a strip wood surround and a hole for a fat block of fondant. I've posted pics here before and can find them again if needed.

Saying all that ... The two strongest nucs I brought through the winter were 5 frame in a homemade Twinstock from 15mm ply. The bees packed in tight along the central wall and did very well. In contrast the Paynes boxes - all a similar strength - did far less well. Even now one of them is a basket case and I'm only keeping it going as an act of charity.

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## Jon

> I'm only keeping it going as an act of charity.


I had a couple like that but I caged the queens and used them to make up a new colony with a frame of bees and emerging brood from elsewhere.
You can have a 3 frame colony in a week if you get the timing right with the emerging brood and build it up from there.

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## drumgerry

> Why don't you simply stand the box on a block of Kingspan 'inside' the four feet of the Paynes nuc?


Great suggestion Fatshark!  Why didn't I think of that?  Doh!

DR - doddle to make a twinstock.  Just cut some 6 or 9mm ply to divide the box and, if you have a spare floor, just screw a strip of wood down the middle (if it's a mesh floor) and cut another entrance in the sidewall.  You can have the ply sticking up the thickness of two separate crownboards (which you'd have to make as well) to create two entirely separate units.  Just a little time, some plywood, some scrap timber and a few screws needed!  Thornes on the other hand charge an arm and a leg for theirs.

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## drumgerry

Oh and about the Paynes feeder.  Because it's a permanent fixture I think it makes the system really inflexible.  And before I got an eke (need to make ekes for the new ones  - pics and link please Fatshark?  :Smile:  ) I tried to feed fondant in it and that ended up in many dead bees and an unholy mess.  I think I'd be happier with  a removeable frame feeder and the option to go to 8 frames if needed.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Great suggestion Fatshark!  Why didn't I think of that?  Doh!
> 
> DR - doddle to make a twinstock.  Just cut some 6 or 9mm ply to divide the box and, if you have a spare floor, just screw a strip of wood down the middle (if it's a mesh floor) and cut another entrance in the sidewall.  You can have the ply sticking up the thickness of two separate crownboards (which you'd have to make as well) to create two entirely separate units.  Just a little time, some plywood, some scrap timber and a few screws needed!  Thornes on the other hand charge an arm and a leg for theirs.


I will get the tools out  :Smile:

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## fatshark

> Oh and about the Paynes feeder.  Because it's a permanent fixture I think it makes the system really inflexible.  And before I got an eke (need to make ekes for the new ones  - pics and link please Fatshark?  ) I tried to feed fondant in it and that ended up in many dead bees and an unholy mess.  I think I'd be happier with  a removeable frame feeder and the option to go to 8 frames if needed.


Here ... I see you've posted directly after it, so perhaps have seen it already.

Just a quick comment on a homemade Twinstock ... I use the thinnest ply divider possible to maximise heat transfer between them (and maximise the number if frames I can squeeze in on each side). I then use a sheet of thick plastic pinned along the top of the divider as a crown board. All that lies flat on the top of the frames ... followed by a thick block of Kingspan. I actually think Correx would be a good divider - easy to clean/replace, thin and pretty rigid - but tricky to fix my plastic to.

If I need to feed them I cut a small flap in the plastic and use a curry container upturned with fondant in it. All of this goes in a poly super with bubble wrap to take up the dead space. Then the Kingspan and roof.

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## drumgerry

Sorry Fatshark just sawit a wee while ago.  I had imagined a thinner ply eke to fit flush with the sides of the nuc body but that wouldn't let the roof sit down properly would it?  I think your solution is the only one that would work but is it a bit labour intensive creating that lip on the inside?

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## fatshark

No, it's pretty straightforward. I just build a rectangular eke that fits on top of the lidless box, then an inner lip, spaced with a scrap of 3mm strip wood. Honestly, if I can do it, anyone can. Better.

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## drumgerry

Well I do have a table saw (the beekeeper's friend!) so no excuse really!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Well I do have a table saw (the beekeeper's friend!) so no excuse really!


Yes and a full set of fingers (at the moment)

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