# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  Ban  the 'environmentalist' opposition .   Live a quiet life?

## corrector (JTF4)

Since you lot have banned Stromnessbees,Eric,Graham, JTF etc. (and where's Karol gone?); I guess you're all happier in your cocoons.

 You really should look in a mirror and decide what you stand for.

 This is meant as a constructive suggestion.

----------


## Jon

If you mean Karol who posts on BKF, he has never posted here. Neither has Graham White if that is the Graham you mean.
Eric McC is not banned either as far as I know but has elected not to post recently.

Maybe you meant to post this on beekeeping forum as most of those names are banned there apart from karol.

----------


## prakel

> Since you lot have banned Stromnessbees,Eric,Graham, JTF etc. (and where's Karol gone?); I guess you're all happier in your cocoons.
> 
>  You really should look in a mirror and decide what you stand for.
> 
>  This is meant as a constructive suggestion.


What Jon wrote with the addition (just for you, corrector) that I know what I stand for; don't need mirrors or any environmental campaigners *screaming* in my ear. Which is why I don't bother hanging out on bee forums much anymore. I'd rather wait for the monthly magazines to drop through the letter box.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Corrector

Bananarama put it best when they sang "It's not what you say it's the way that you say it......that's what gets results"

I like a chat about environmental issues though I'm not an expert
Sometimes though, claims get made about mass wipe outs of all bees by various things CCD,GM,etc and now neonics

There are good arguments for controlling the use of chemicals and  people should raise this here and elsewhere in the right sections of the forum
Unfortunately bees have a high public profile so lot's of posters try to use that profile to claim all bees are being, or will be wiped out, then they post in every thread

Also it's unfair to expect the SBA to lead campaigns on an environmental issue where there is no evidence of harm to bees
There are organisations such as Friends of the Earth who are better placed to lead these campaigns

----------


## gavin

> There are organisations such as Friends of the Earth who are better placed to lead these campaigns


Those of us who do consider ourselves environmentalists are exasperated at the diversion of the effort of mainstream organisations (FoE, SWT, Buglife) from addressing the real main threats to biodiversity in the UK - habitat loss and degradation, climate change and fluctuation, urban encroachment, over-tidy farming (both organic and conventional, see first on this list) - to fighting this campaign that claims that massive environmental damage is being done by what are probably some of the safest pesticides around, when used appropriately.

Anyway, 'corrector' leaves an internet trace that shows he has the same relatively uncommon ISP (shared with Eric) as Doris' non-beekeeper partner on Orkney.  If it isn't Johnthefarmer I'm a Dutchman.  At the very least it is someone here to issue challenges rather than discuss beekeeping.

Jon was right.  The only people banned here are a long list of non-beekeeping spammers, and:

Doris Fischler, ex-secretary of the Orkney Beekeepers.
Doris' partner, John L.

Both were banned for making accusations against individuals here.  Neither will be allowed back.

Eric was off our list for a year and is now able to post but chooses not to.  Karol has never posted here to my knowledge.  Neither has Graham White.  He has such a temper I doubt that he would last long if he did.

----------


## madasafish

I just so love new posters who start on environmental issues.

How to advertise - in big letters- you are a one concern poster... 

Single issue posters tend to be boringly unimaginative, and unconcerned with beekeeping.

----------


## Jon

> I guess you're all happier in your cocoons.


I am happier reading as much as I can from reliable independent sources and forming an opinion accordingly.
Of course anyone who writes or publishes anything which suggests that neonicotinoids are unlikely to be the main problem facing bees will be vilified and accused of being a shill.
Most of the leading bee researchers are on the list at this point

Dennis Van Engelsdorp
Jerry Bromenshenk
Maryanne Frazer
James Cresswell

All people who have dedicated their careers to looking at bee health issues whose experimental work has led them to stop and say, hold on a minute, things are not black and white.

The ban the neonicotinoid people start with the answer (ban the neonics) then run around scavenging for snippets of information, usually from the press or a campaign site, which back up the answer they started with. There is no respect for science at all except where a conclusion happens to favour the answer they started with.


That is why debate is generally futile and it is worth checking out Calum's flow chart at moments like this.

Flowchart-to-determine-if-youre-having-a-rational-discussion-e1300206446831-634x882.jpg

----------


## drumgerry

For anyone who wants to read more on the Neonic debate in amongst actual beekeeping matters (weird eh?!) can I recommend they subscribe to BEE-L.  Strangely as I recommend it I'm going to have to resubscribe as I've been kicked off by the server because my email client is playing up.

And it's becoming somewhat embarrassing to see the desperation with which JTF (in his many incarnations) is trying to get back on to the forum.  You'd think he could take the hint!

----------


## prakel

> And it's becoming somewhat embarrassing to see the desperation with which JTF (in his many incarnations) is trying to get back on to the forum.  You'd think he could take the hint!


Shame he didn't take my hint several months ago to moderate the b"$$"%!s and tell us something from his undoubted knowledge and experience of organic agriculture. That would have interested me and probably (Heaven forbid) given him greater credibility when (as he would) he continued with his ill thought and badly presented pesticide arguements. Of course, he didn't even reply to my suggestion because he was too busy trying to score points against other members; so trapped by tunnel vision that he just couldn't see the opportunity to stand back and take a breather.

----------


## Jon

Good point as there are a lot of posters here who grow stuff on allotments or smallholdings so the interest level is high.

----------


## Trog

A late lamented message board to which I belonged used to flag trolls as soon as they were spotted by posting: DNFTT (do not feed the trolls) or starting a discussion about spoons on their thread.  There is absolutely no point engaging with them; they are not open to reason.

----------


## marion.orca

Thank goodness it doesn't stand for " Do not feed the Trog " - I'd hate that to happen to one of my near- ish neighbours.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Good point as there are a lot of posters here who grow stuff on allotments or smallholdings so the interest level is high.


That might make a good thread how to create a bee friendly allotment / garden
most of the plants I would like en masse don't thrive in my fairly wet soil
Has anybody tried sunflowers -- is it worth it
Is there more nectar in a buddlia than forsythia etc

Also alpacas 
There seem to be a few keepers and they are interesting in a general environment sort of way
Does their grazing style help wildflowers -- quite a few beekeepers seem to have them?

----------


## Jon

Pam Hunter mentioned in her UBKA talk that bees on sunflowers do not live as long, even sunflowers with no pesticide applied.
The US and French beekeepers have reported problems with sunflowers but that may be pesticide related.

I posted a reference to this in another thread.
The main thing is to have a mix of pollens and to have pollen available right through the season.
Bees love any form of brassica in flower.

----------


## gavin

I'll be sowing Phacelia and Vipers Bugloss on my allotment within the week.  More interested in feeding and seeing bumbles and other bees rather than the Apis variety.

----------


## drumgerry

> Also alpacas 
> There seem to be a few keepers and they are interesting in a general environment sort of way
> Does their grazing style help wildflowers -- quite a few beekeepers seem to have them?


My business is breeding alpacas DR.  We have one of the largest herds in Scotland with 30+ (been at it since 2004 but they breed VERY slowly!).  Called "Coire Alpacas".  Not sure I think about them in environmental terms as such.  Grazing style - they won't graze a field down flat the way sheep will unless there's absolutely nothing else.  So maybe in a small paddock in winter.  But in summer they'll graze selectively and you end up with a "tufty" field if you know what I mean!  How that would interact with the planting of wild flowers I don't know.  If the plants were very palatable the alpacas would have them.  Never had them on grazing rich in wildflowers or even clover so I don't know the answer to that.  I'd be wary of sowing anything that might be poisonous as their natural habitat (the Altiplano of Sth America) is so different from our own.  Not saying it wouldn't be something that would work but if it were me I'd want a fair amount of information on hand before risking some very expensive stock

----------


## Jon

One of the farm workers killed a couple of very expensive thoroughbred horses at a ranch near where I work in Mexico by feeding them crap.
There are plants such as 'higuerilla' the thing which produces ricin and it has a seed dispersal mechanism like Himalayan balsam.
The local vet told me that a single seed in a bale of hay is capable of killing a cow or a horse.
Got to be careful with those ruminants!

----------


## drumgerry

The worst thing we have to worry about where we have the alpacas is rhododendrons.  Which means I have an annual session with a brushcutter to keep it out of reach of the long necks!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> The worst thing we have to worry about where we have the alpacas is rhododendrons.  Which means I have an annual session with a brushcutter to keep it out of reach of the long necks!


I think Claire Waring the editor of BeeCraft keeps alpacas
They look very gentle
Do you get wool from combing them or are they really meant as pets

I just read they make good flock guardians will they really chase off foxes?

----------


## drumgerry

They spit just as much as llamas but not often at a person  - usually you get caught in the crossfire between two of them!  They have to be shorn annually DR and we don't think of them as pets.  Some do but there's a multi-million pound industry in breeding them and we (and others like us) like to think we're trying to emulate what particularly the Aussies are doing with their alpacas which is making them an intrinsic part of their agriculture.  The fibre (wool) they produce can be as fine as cashmere - it's their raison d'etre but the business is in the breeding of high quality stock.

Flock guardians  is not something I have experience of but I know people are selling males for this and I've heard reports of greatly increased lambing rates with alpacas there to see off foxes.

If you're ever here in Speyside DR I can give you a close-up and personal with our herd.  Just drop me a line and we can sort something out.  Is it something you're thinking of getting into yourself?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry

I love the look of them but if I told the missus I was thinking of getting one , (in fact getting anything else full stop) I would be in very deep water.
I'm surprised they are brave enough to chase foxes and such like they don't look like tough guys
We have had a fox problem but a £2000 guardian for the chickens might not go down too well with her indoors

also I didn't know they were sheared I just assumed they got combed or something
It must be a fair old job catching and shearing 30 of them 

I see some of the alpacas are very valuable is that to do with the quality of their wooly coats ?
I expect it's not all just plain sailing though, do they have a lot of vet checks and health issues like horses

Thanks for the invite to see them 
If I ever get over your way that would be great
How have they been getting on with the long winter?

----------


## Trog

> Thank goodness it doesn't stand for " Do not feed the Trog " - I'd hate that to happen to one of my near- ish neighbours.


That's very sweet of you!  I hope your area didn't suffer in the recent fires.  So glad the rain has come at last (Please don't quote me on that if it forgets to stop!!)

----------


## drumgerry

Hi DR - even if you were getting one you'd have to get two I'm afraid!  They get very stressed if not in a herd and a minimum of two are needed for that.  They have a fiercely protective nature and will do anything to stop predators getting at their young and they'll extend that to lambs as well.  We have one female who I dread being pregnant as she goes for me when she has her cria and I have to weigh it etc.

Shearing isn't so much a problem as I don't do it myself.  We have an Aussie guy to who tours Europe every summer and does each animal in about 10 minutes (they have to be stretched out on the ground on a mat to do it).

Valuable  - yep!  As with most breeding stock you have to pay for good quality animals.  The fineness and density of the fleece and proper conformation make for an animal for which you can pay anything from £1000 up to £100,000.  Non-breeding stock can go for around £500-£750. It's very rare to see animals sell at the very top prices but it has happened.

Cold, dry winters not a problem with that fleece of theirs.  They don't much like it but can cope with anything Scotland can throw at them - where they come from is around 14,000 feet and freezes almost every night.  The wet's another matter ( their fleece isn't waterproof) so they need a field shelter.  Vet fees  - yep again! - but no more than you'd pay for any other animal.  They're generally very healthy but need to be wormed and vaccinated against Clostridia and have a few specific things of their own you need to watch out for.

Give us a shout if you're ever in my neck of the woods!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Gosh you must be worried about rustlers 
These days even a beehive  isn't safe

Alpaca.jpg

looks like butter wouldn't melt  :Smile: 

Thanks for all the info drumgerry I can see why you are so enthusiastic about them  they look great

----------


## madasafish

Drumgerry

Very interesting: thanks.

You missed out one VITAL piece of info.: can you eat them and what do they taste like?  :-)

----------


## drumgerry

Thanks guys. Haven't tasted it yet but certainly not opposed to.  A meat industry will start at some point I feel to make use of all the males as there's only a finite market for them.  And in Sth America they are of course eaten.



Some of our gang from a couple of years ago!

----------


## greengumbo

> I'll be sowing Phacelia and Vipers Bugloss on my allotment within the week.  More interested in feeding and seeing bumbles and other bees rather than the Apis variety.


Phacelia will be great for honeybees. I'm going to scatter loads about the place this weekend as they germinate at quite a low temp. I got lots of nice mixes from Scotia Seeds based in Brechin - great wee company and some interesting mixes.

My wife gave me my belated birthday present yesterday - that newly updated Plants for Bees book. Really impressive. Gives some nice info on what species are good for what bees and how easy to grow etc.

Just need some sodding bees now !

----------


## marion.orca

Hi Trog - the fires were close - but not as close as 2 years ago when the police evacuated us from our house - we had only been in it 2 weeks having moved from one end of the village to the other ! Nowhere near the hives, thankfully. I'm not so sure I'm glad the rain came today having just struggled up the hill home in lashings of the stuff - but the ground and lochs  certainly needs it - roll on a proper spring !

----------


## Trog

This fire? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-22158892

----------


## marion.orca

No not that one - too far away, but the hills were alight all around Mallaig too.

----------

