# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  The Dreadful  Politics of Neonics at Home and Abroad

## Stromnessbees

A very interesting article appeared in the Guardian today, just a couple of days before the all important vote to ban the neonics:


*Owen Paterson set to scupper EU plans to ban  pesticides linked to bee harm*

*Environment secretary not expected to  support proposal despite poll showing almost three-quarters of the UK public  wants ban*


 Damian CarringtonThe Guardian, Wednesday 13 March 2013 
  The UK environment secretary, Owen Paterson,  appears set to defy public and political pressure by scuppering a proposed  Europe-wide suspension of three pesticides linked to serious harm in bees.


 Almost three-quarters of the UK public backs the ban, according to a  poll released on Wednesday, but the UK is not currently expected to support the  measure when the European  commission (EC) votes on it on Friday, leaving it little chance of being  passed.


_"Owen Paterson is about to put the short-term interests of farmers  and the pesticide industry ahead of Britain's food supply,"_ said Ian  Bassin, of the campaign group Avaaz, which has amassed 2.5m  signatures supporting a ban on neonicotinoids, the world's most widely used  insecticides. The YouGov poll, conducted for Avaaz, found that 71%  of Britons said the UK should vote in favour of the EU moratorium.


 The proposed suspension has prompted fierce lobbying on both sides. The  Guardian understands that at present the opposition of the UK, Germany and Spain  outweighs the support of France, the Netherlands and Poland, although  campaigners hope to change the minds of ministers in the final days before the  vote. The chemical manufacturers claim that a suspension would reduce food  production, while conservationists say these claims  are unsubstantiated and even greater harm results from the loss of bees and  the vital pollination service they provide.


 About three-quarters of global food crops rely on bees and other insects to fertilise  their flowers, with the result that the decline of honeybee colonies due to  disease, habitat loss and pesticide harm has prompted serious concern. A series  of high-profile  scientific studies in the last year has increasingly linked  neonicotinoids to harmful effects in bees, including huge losses in the  number of queens produced, and big increases in "disappeared" bees – those that  fail to return from food foraging trips.


 As well as public campaigns, Paterson also faces political pressure,  including from one of his Conservative predecessors. Lord Deben, who as John  Gummer was environment secretary,  said:


 _"If ever there were an issue where the precautionary principle  ought to guide our actions, it is in the use of neonicotinoids. _ 
_Bees are too important to our crops to continue to  take this risk."_
  Joan Walley, chair of the Commons environmental audit select committee,  which is investigating  the issue of pesticides and pollinators, said:  _"Ministers have repeatedly told us that the precautionary  principle and evidence-based policymaking inform its position on pesticides. If their  policy in this area is as transparent and open as they claim, I believe that  they would back up those words by voting for the European  moratorium."_A spokeswoman for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs  (Defra), said: 

 _"We have carried out extensive research into the impact of  neonicotinoids on bees and are waiting for the results of work including field  studies._
_ If it is concluded that restrictions on  the use of neonicotinoids are necessary, they will be brought  in."_

 Paterson  said in February:_ "I have asked the EC to wait for the results of our  field trials, rather than rushing to a decision."_ However, the results  will not be available before Friday's vote because the field trials have been seriously  compromised by contamination from neonicotinoids, which are very widely  used. Prof Ian Boyd, Defra's chief scientist, told Walley's committee: _"At  the control site, there were residues of neonicotinoids in pollen and  nectar."
_

 Green MEPs across Europe have written to  every nation's environment minister, including Paterson.

_ "By spreading uncertainty via apparently 'science-based'  arguments, the agro-chemical companies are acting as 'merchants of doubt' and  are therefore blocking effective action by European policy makers,"_ said  the letter.

But Julian Little, a spokesman for Bayer, which manufactures one of the  neonicotinioids, told the Guardian:

_ "We believe that the proposals  remain ill thought-out, disproportionate and ignore all the good work carried  out in the member states, in terms of stewardship and risk migration, to ensure  that farmers continue to have access to these products to help them produce  safe, high quality, affordable food."_

 He said the EC, at the very least,  should carrying out a full impact assessment of any restrictions and said the  "real issue" surrounding honeybee health was the main bee parasite, the varroa  mite.


 The EC  proposal is to ban the use of three neonicotinoids from use on corn, oil  seed rape, sunflowers and other flowering crops across the continent for two  years. Tonio Borg, commissioner for health and consumer policy, said it was time  for_ "swift and decisive action"_ and that the proposals were_  "ambitious but proportionate"._ The proposals came within weeks of  scientists at the European Food Safety Authority, together with experts from  across Europe, concluding that the use of these pesticides  on flowering crops posed an unacceptable risk to bees.
 The chemical companies that manufacture the neonicotinoids affected by  the proposed EU suspension are Bayer, headquartered in Germany, and Syngenta,  based in the UK. Syngenta declined to comment ahead of the  vote.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/mar/13/owen-paterson-ban-pesticides-bees

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## Stromnessbees

.

Yesterday's article in the Guardian was followed by an equally captivating one today:

*Bee conservation: the EU banning three neonic pesticides would be a start*

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ban?CMP=twt_gu 


*And here in Scotland the SBA stands before a long overdue decision:*

The following proposal has been brought forward by  Eric McArthur, Glasgow BKA

*"That the SBA petition the Scottish Government to invoke a moratorium on the use of the pesticides known as neonicotinoids until it is established that these substances do not have an unacceptably long half-life in the soil and that they do not damage pollinators or the soil dwelling organisms on which soil fertility depends."*

Isn't it indeed time that the SBA takes a clear stance against these pesticides that have in over 30 scientific studies proven to harm bees and pollinators?

 Many organizations have spoken out against them, but or own umbrella organization has remained silent on the topic so far. 

- with one exception:

*Apparently, our president Phil McAnespie gave a briefing to Lord Moynihan for his talk about the threats to bees and pollinators in the House of Lords:*

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Pl...:17:40.3700000 

I hope that at the AGM Phil will be able to inform the association about the content of that briefing, especially as he gave it in representation of the SBA.

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## Jon

All those pulsating colours and the different font sizes.
Who spiked my tea?

It's heart warming that we have a guide to point the slavering fools who post on here (you know who you are) towards the most important parts of a post which they would otherwise have missed due to compromised visual acuity or perchance lack of educational opportunities.

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## gavin

> .
> I hope that at the AGM Phil will be able to inform the association about the content of that briefing, especially as he gave it in representation of the SBA.


And if he didn't fall into line with the neonic zealots, what then?

That House of Lords debate was a breath of fresh air after the one-sided sessions at the EAC where not one beekeeper was called to give their perspective on bees and their interactions with crops.

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## Stromnessbees

> And if he didn't fall into line with the neonic zealots, what then?


If I remember right, then the BBKA faced a similar dilemma over that topic and didn't come out of it in great shape.

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## Jon

> If I remember right, then the BBKA faced a similar dilemma over that topic and didn't come out of it in great shape.


Record membership currently at about 25,000

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## Stromnessbees

> Record membership currently at about 25,000


But despised by many for having accepted the pesticide corporations' shilling.

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## Jon

How many?
Despised by a few such as yourself, considered unwise and inappropriate by the likes of myself, yet the pesticide issue has been blissfully ignored by the vast majority of members.

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

> How many?
> Despised by a few such as yourself, considered unwise and inappropriate by the likes of myself, yet the pesticide issue has been blissfully ignored by the vast majority of members.


   How fervently correct she is;how guardedly right you are; and how blissfully ignorant you describe your fellow members to be.

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## Jon

I am not a member of the bbka myself so they are not my fellow members but I do consider the executive shot itself in the foot with the pesticide sponsorship deal.
I don't think it was done in bad faith or that it involved backhanders as some like to imply.
It just did not sit easy with a lot of people - linking pesticide manufacturers with a hobby based around the welfare of a hive full of bees.

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

> I am not a member of the bbka myself so they are not my fellow members but I do consider the executive shot itself in the foot with the pesticide sponsorship deal.
> I don't think it was done in bad faith or that it involved backhanders as some like to imply.
> It just did not sit easy with a lot of people - linking pesticide manufacturers with a hobby based around the welfare of a hive full of bees.


It did, and does, tie the mouths of the recipients.

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## Jon

Don't know if that is fair comment.
I have met a few guys in the bbka exec and have always found that they speak their mind.

Who do you think has their mouth 'tied'

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## Stromnessbees

> It just did not sit easy with a lot of people - linking pesticide manufacturers with a hobby based around the welfare of a hive full of bees.



There are some universal principles to the art of lobbying. One of them is 

.            "*Always lead the opposition*", which could also be read as "*Always mis-lead the opposition*".


To the billion-dollar industry of pesticide peddling, beekeepers should be a key part of the opposition.

Would it be surprising if that industry, with teams of analysts, psychologists and strategists at their disposal, would seek and succeed to lead the various beekeeping organizations?

In German we have an interesting proverb: 

.                 "The fish always starts to reek at its head"


Hopefully the AGM on Saturday will prove that this is not the case with our own SBA ...

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

> There are some universal principles to the art of lobbying. One of them is 
> 
> .            "*Always lead the opposition*", which could also be read as "*Always mis-lead the opposition*".
> 
> 
> To the billion-dollar industry of pesticide peddling, beekeepers should be a key part of the opposition.
> 
> Would it be surprising if that industry, with teams of analysts, psychologists and strategists at their disposal, would seek and succeed to lead the various beekeeping organizations?
> 
> ...


  one must hope that our esteemed leader simply spoke for the best interests of our bees!

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## Neils

I think I've come round to backing the ban.

I don't think it will save bees, in fact I think that colony/bee posioning incidents will increase once neonics are banned.
I think that colonies will continue to collapse/dwindle/die from "unexplained" causes.
Bumblebee numbers will continue to decrease.

But once they're gone, the likes of Doris will have no tub to thump and won't be able to claim pesticides as the cause of everything ailing bees. Nor will many happy to ascribe ppb to "oh pesticides killed them." Have a shield to hide behind.

The campaign has backed itself into a corner by pinning their objection solely on neonics they've told everyone it's these specific pesticides causing all the "problems" so if, as I believe, nothing fundamentally changes if they're banned, then they've nowhere to turn. 

So I'll take the short term environmental hit of seeing old pesticides come back into use as a trade off for seeing this annoying distraction buried once and for all.

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## madasafish

I am fortunate where I live: virtually no arable land within a 5 mile radius of home or our Association apiary. (200 meters above sea level with clay soil, steep slopes and quite wooded. Mainly cows)

So - being selfish - a ban is going to have zero impact directly on my bees or others I help look after.

I wonder what the Law of Unintended Consequences will bring with a ban?

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## gavin

> I wonder what the Law of Unintended Consequences will bring with a ban?


1.  Less OSR, so less forage for honeybees and bumble bees (not sure by how much, maybe just a little).
2.  Less vigorous/healthy OSR, see above.
3.  Possibility of other chemicals used.  Not sure if there will be much consequence of that tbh.
4.  Poorer performance of honeybees and lower populations of wild bees in arable areas as a result (see 1, 2)
5.  Possible improvement in bumble bee performance in areas with the risky neonic crops (sunflowers, maybe spring rape but unlikely winter OSR)
6.  Complacency amongst some beekeepers who think they've fixed a problem when they haven't - bee troubles continue.
7.  Complacency/disinterest amongst the public and politicians on habitat preservation and forage improvement for wild (and honey) bees, yet these will remain the big issues.
8.  At some stage, cynicism when beekeepers or wild bee enthusiasts come back again with some of the important issues once a ban fails to make much difference.
9.  Irritation with beekeepers and bee conservationists from much of the farming community who should be partners in all of this.

Lose-lose situation.

Any more to add to the list?

Oh ... and should this kind of thing extend further through farming and food production, a need for a greater area of land to grow the food we need, and further biodiversity loss (including pollinators) as more land comes under the plough.

lose-lose-lose situation

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## gavin

> one must hope that our esteemed leader simply spoke for the best interests of our bees!


You speak with enthusiasm for the Stromness position ZA - which is OK - and about our leader.  Will I see you at Perth on Saturday?  I'm assuming that you are an SBA member and a beekeeper?

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## wee willy

My twitter page has been blitzed during the last few days by people promoting the ban on neonics !
My instinct tells me such a move can only be to the good!
However, common sense modifies my Zeal!
What is the alternative?(we can't all be crofters)
This group of islands is over populated, cash strapped and due to be further taxed with an input  of people from areas where arable land is all they have .
Anyone living in the countryside should thank god for the 'urban sprawl', because should all the population there demand enough land to be self sufficient ,where would it all end!
Short of culling people I cannot see our dependence on agrochemicals reducing by an iota!
Bombarding the social media, fora and the press is beginning to generate Ennui instead of enthusiasm I'm afraid.
WW


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Jimbo

Yes. I can add another item to your list Gavin. Less research funding looking at pesticides as the problem will have been seen to have been fixed with a ban and possible unemployment of scientists working in this area of research.

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## greengumbo

> You speak with enthusiasm for the Stromness position ZA - which is OK - and about our leader.  Will I see you at Perth on Saturday?  I'm assuming that you are an SBA member and a beekeeper?


Given the zealous nature of stromnessbees and the others on this forum then I would expect they will be there. If not - what does that say about their convictions ?

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## madasafish

I have found my local BBKA Association - North Staffordshire:-
friendly to new ideas
prepared to listen to them - ( I had an organised visit from them to see my TBHs)
and anti pesticides.

And pro bees.

And with an influx of new members over the past 5 years which has totally reversed any decline in bee numbers...

What more can I say?

(I must therefore be the spawn of Satan  and a planted fifth columnist according to some of the pro neonics lobby..)

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## Jimbo

I will be there clutching my red SBA membership card which may be required if it comes to a vote.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... and how blissfully ignorant you describe your fellow members to be.


Ignoring something is not the same as being ignorant.
Kitta

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## wee willy

Every football fan is a manager in their own mind! Very few are asked to prove their skills !
We can all beat our collective breasts but I have yet to see a viable solution to the problems the ecosystems are facing and increasingly so?
WW


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Stromnessbees

*.
Bee-harming pesticides escape European ban*

                              European commission proposal to suspend the use of neonicotinoids fails to gain backing of UK and Germany

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...e-european-ban 



As far as I know there will be another chance to get the European proposal approved in about 2 months time. 

With the population of Europe now increasingly aware the chemical multinationals might not be able to defend their position much longer.

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## Stromnessbees

> Given the zealous nature of stromnessbees and the others on this forum then I would expect they will be there. If not - what does that say about their convictions ?


It's not easy for some of us to attend those meetings.
If I can't make it then there will be others that will take note that the Glaswegian proposal is given it's full due. 
Any attempts of diversions will be made known to the public, you can be sure of that. 

After all, even the Women's Institute, WI, which counts over 210 000 members throughout the UK, has now come out in favor of the ban:

http://thewichair.blogspot.co.uk/201....html?spref=tw

If the SBA keeps stalling on the issue then the spotlight will be on them for explaining themselves.

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## Stromnessbees

Here an incomplete list of opponents and supporters of the ban:


ORGANIZATIONS/ INDIVIDUALS *OPPOSING* THE EUROPEAN  COMMISSION'S PROPOSED BAN ON NEONICOTINOID INSECTICIDES

DEFRA & Owen Paterson
Syngenta, Bayer, BASF
National  Farmers Union
various leading members of beekeeping organizations


ORGANIZATIONS/INDIVIDUALS WHICH *SUPPORT* THE  EUROPEAN COMMISSION'S PROPOSED BAN ON NEONICOTINOID  INSECTICIDES
 The European Science Agency
The European Food Safety  Agency
The European Parliament
The European Commission
Tonio Bord - EU  Commissioner for the Environment
The Dutch Parliament
The French National  Assembly
The Polish National Assembly
The German Professional Beekeepers  Union
The French Union of Beekeepers (UNAF)AVAAZ -* 2.5 million people* have signed the Petition against  Neonicotinoids
Buglife
Pesticide Action Network UK
Friends of the  earth
The Soil Association
The Royal Society for the Protection of  Birds
The Scottish Wildlife Trust
Lord Debden
Joan Walley - Chair -  Environmental Audit Committee
Professor Dave Goulson - bumblebee  researcher
Glasgow & District BKA
Cowall BKA
Caddenfoot  BKA
The Women's Institute, WI*THE ROYAL WILDLIFE TRUSTS - ALL 47*

Alderney Wildlife TrustAvon  Wildlife TrustBerkshire,  Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire Wildlife TrustBrecknock Wildlife Trust, WalesCheshire Wildlife TrustCornwall Wildlife TrustCumbria Wildlife TrustDerbyshire Wildlife TrustDevon  Wildlife TrustDorset  Wildlife TrustDurham  Wildlife TrustEssex  Wildlife TrustGloucestershire Wildlife TrustGwent  Wildlife Trust, WalesHampshire and Isle of  Wight Wildlife TrustHerefordshire Nature TrustHertfordshire and  Middlesex Wildlife TrustIsles of Scilly Wildlife TrustKent  Wildlife TrustLeicestershire and  Rutland Wildlife TrustLincolnshire Wildlife TrustLondon  Wildlife TrustManx  Wildlife Trust / Treisht Beiyn-Feie Vannan, Isle of ManMontgomeryshire Wildlife Trust,  WalesNorfolk Wildlife Trust (registered as  Norfolk Naturalists' Trust)North Wales Wildlife Trust, WalesNorthumberland Wildlife TrustNottinghamshire Wildlife TrustRadnorshire Wildlife Trust, WalesScottish Wildlife Trust, ScotlandSheffield Wildlife TrustShropshire Wildlife TrustSomerset Wildlife TrustStaffordshire Wildlife TrustSuffolk Wildlife TrustSurrey  Wildlife TrustSussex  Wildlife TrustTees Valley Wildlife TrustWildlife  Trust for Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and NorthamptonshireWildlife Trust  for Birmingham and the Black CountryWildlife  Trust for Lancashire, Manchester and North MerseysideWildlife Trust of South and  West Wales, WalesUlster  Wildlife Trust, Northern IrelandWarwickshire Wildlife TrustWiltshire Wildlife TrustWorcestershire Wildlife TrustYorkshire Wildlife Trust

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## drumgerry

You forgot to add the Masons and other secret societies to your list opposing Doris

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## Pete L

We can all do our bit to help by planting some flower seeds, supplied by soil association....see link below.




> Friday 15 March, 2013 was a terrible day for bees as the EU failed to ban three neonicotinoid pesticides.


http://www.soilassociation.org/suppo...britainbuzzing

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## Stromnessbees

> You forgot to add the Masons and other secret societies to your list opposing Doris


If you can come up with an official statement by the freemasons then you are very welcome to post it here. 

In my experience their influence is not shown out in the open, but it's obvious to me that they are opposing the ban, and all the masonic functionaries are failing to speak out for the bees, despite them being held in high esteem in that society. 

 :Frown:

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## Stromnessbees

> We can all do our bit to help by planting some flower seeds, supplied by soil association....see link below.
> 
> 
> http://www.soilassociation.org/suppo...britainbuzzing


You can plant as many flowers as you want, if the farmer next door keeps using neonics on his fields your bees will suffer and eventually perish.

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## Pete L

> You can plant as many flowers as you want


I think there may be a limit on how many packs of seeds they will send to each person,but not sure.

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## drumgerry

> If you can come up with an official statement by the freemasons then you are very welcome to post it here. 
> 
> In my experience their influence is not shown out in the open, but it's obvious to me that they are opposing the ban, and all the masonic functionaries are failing to speak out for the bees, despite them being held in high esteem in that society.


I was referring to your ludicrous accusations on Biobees as well you know.  And to which you have given no reply on this forum despite having been asked to justify your comments.  How can anyone take what you say seriously when you undermine your credibility repeatedly by making baseless, paranoid, ridiculous assertions that opponents of a neonic ban are posting on forums at the behest of the masons or are pesticide industry schills etc etc?

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## Stromnessbees

> I was referring to your ludicrous accusations on Biobees as well you know.  And to which you have given no reply on this forum despite having been asked to justify your comments.  How can anyone take what you say seriously when you undermine your credibility repeatedly by making baseless, paranoid, ridiculous assertions that opponents of a neonic ban are posting on forums at the behest of the masons or are pesticide industry schills etc etc?



My thread is here for everybody to read and contribute, I am not hiding anything.

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14291&highlight=

I would have posted it on this forum, had it not been for the censorship on my account applied by admin.

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## Neils

Also not supporting the ban does not equate to being against it.

I don't support the ban because at best it won't make any difference and at worst it will be more harmful for the very things its supposed to be protecting. I'm also not supporting the ban because there is no clear aim for what is supposed to happen afterwards.

Im not against it and for the reasons I only half said in jest above I'm actually starting to lean towards supporting it just get these parasites off our backs and into the next campaign.

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## drumgerry

> My thread is here for everybody to read and contribute, I am not hiding anything.
> 
> http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14291&highlight=
> 
> I would have posted it on this forum, had it not been for the censorship on my account applied by admin.


I'm glad you're not hiding your thread on Biobees Doris because to any sane person it clearly demonstrates where you're coming from and in the process destroys any shred of logic or reason present in your arguments.

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## Stromnessbees

> I'm glad you're not hiding your thread on Biobees Doris because to any sane person it clearly demonstrates where you're coming from and in the process destroys any shred of logic or reason present in your arguments.


I think that's for every sane person to decide for themselves.

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## Bumble

> My thread is here for everybody to read and contribute, I am not hiding anything.
> 
> http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14291&highlight=


Only registered members of that forum can see the thread.

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## drumgerry

It's worth registering Bumble just to read the fruit-loopery of that thread!

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## Jon

Masonic chemtrails killed my hamster.

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## Trog

:Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


> In German we have an interesting proverb: 
> 
> .                 "The fish always starts to reek at its head"
> 
> 
> Hopefully the AGM on Saturday will prove that this is not the case with our own SBA ...


In my considerable experience of dead fish and gutting various types of them, it's the innards that reek first and worst if left too long.  :EEK!:

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## Trog

> It's not easy for some of us to attend those meetings.
> .


True, Doris.  This is why the SBA have made it possible to attend the AGM via Skype, having tried out the technology at the Secretaries' Meeting and the Council meeting, AND ADVERTISED THE FACT IN THE MAGAZINE.

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## Bumble

> Only registered members of that forum can see the thread.





> It's worth registering Bumble just to read the fruit-loopery of that thread!


I did try to register. It was probably about three years ago, when I was thinking about making a top bar hive.

I wrote and asked why my account had disappeared after I'd taken the trouble to activate it, he said something about not liking online email accounts (hotmail, gmail etc) and automatically deletes them. He wanted me to send more personal details to prove I am real, and to try again.

I declined.

If the stuff on the Biobees site is so important to the world of beekeeping, why can't non-members read all of it? Quite a few of the forums are members only. Why the obvious secrecy?

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## Pete L

> If the stuff on the Biobees site is so important to the world of beekeeping, why can't non-members read all of it? Quite a few of the forums are members only. Why the obvious secrecy?


You can read the environMental section without being logged in, well i can anyway.

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## gavin

> You can read the environMental section without being logged in, well i can anyway.


Read this last night, but it wasn't until re-reading just now that I saw what you did there.   :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> All those pulsating colours and the different font sizes.
> Who spiked my tea?
> 
> It's heart warming that we have a guide to point the slavering fools who post on here (you know who you are) towards the most important parts of a post which they would otherwise have missed due to compromised visual acuity or perchance lack of educational opportunities.


How very dare you !!
Speaking as one of the slavering fools I like a bit of colour
Some forums have dancing bees as well
Insert your own raspberry noise here as I don't know how that's done either.
Its taken me over 2 years to read and reply to this post 
I expect sympathy at this point not ridicule.
New bee season ahead = gloves on-- when the bell rings come out fighting

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## Trog

> How very dare you !!
> Speaking as one of the slavering fools I like a bit of colour
> Some forums have dancing bees as well
> Insert your own raspberry noise here as I don't know how that's done either.
> Its taken me over 2 years to read and reply to this post 
> I expect sympathy at this point not ridicule.
> New bee season ahead = gloves on-- when the bell rings come out fighting


Your hives have bells?  There's posh!  I just call out a cheery greeting before opening mine - don't even have to knock ... which is rather how things are in the human world, too, round here!  :Wink:  :P  

BTW, can't find raspberry emoticon on this site but I've seen them elsewhere.

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## Jon

> how very dare you !!
> Speaking as one of the slavering fools i like a bit of colour
> some forums have dancing bees as well
> insert your own raspberry noise here as i don't know how that's done either.
> Its taken me over 2 years to read and reply to this post 
> i expect sympathy at this point not ridicule.
> New bee season ahead = gloves on-- when the bell rings come out fighting


c o n s i d e r    i t    d o n e

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## gavin

I'd offer this one, only .......







... it looks a bit Stuart Hall-ish?



But anyway, it lifted my spirits to see you back on the forum Droney!  Looking forward to seeing many more of your posts.

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