# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Overwintering Apideas

## Jon

One of the big problems with UK queen rearing is that it is hard to have queens ready before June and certainly not by April when a lot of folk are looking for them.

You could get around this by overwintering queens in Apideas.
At the moment I have 4 still going.
This winter has been exceptionally mild but I wonder is it possible to regularly overwinter Apideas.

This one here is the strongest. It probably has the equivalent of a couple of frames of bees in it as it is a triple with 15 apidea frames inside.




Closer view.

----------


## bees4u

*HI Jon, it was nice to watch your bees busy taking in pollen etc. I tried to over winter a spare queen last year and they all died at the last minute, mainly I think from the damp, so I've decided to to try it again this year and put a mesh in the floor to over come the damp I found before. I think that it's almost like queen banking. I plan to put them inside a brood box up on bricks for air & flights. It would be interesting to see  how your queen does now in a normal hive. regards Jean*

----------


## fatshark

I've got a 50% success rate this winter (my first attempt) using Kielers rather than Apideas.  Again, these are triples.  I'm aware of several others doing much the same thing with at least as good, and often better, success - including in parts of Scotland.  I'll be interested to see how the queens do early in the season after presumably having reduced space to lay late last season.  I've just built a simple board to allow me to unit the Kielers with a standard queen less nuc, on the assumption that I'll be taking the queens out well before queen rearing proper can start this year (so cannot reuse the workers as I would normally do).

----------


## Jon

Hi Fatshark
These are all late grafted queens which were mated and started laying in September.
They were given extra bees and brood when I combined them with other Apideas from which I had removed queens at the start of October.
I don't thing reducing space/banking/whatever makes much if any difference in the long run.
I have had queens in Apideas for a couple of months which have gone on to produce very big colonies.
Kielers are probably better for overwintering because of the extra volume but I much prefer Apideas for general use in the summer.

----------


## fatshark

Hi Jon

Mine are also late grafts and then united.  The one thing I don't like about Kielers for overwintering is the entrance.  I think it can get blocked with dead bees when the colony cannot fly.  During the season this isn't an issue as you get relatively few deaths and regular flying, but it's the other way round in the winter.  The last dead out I cleared looked blocked to me (though this wasn't what did for them, that was Nosema).  I've got a couple of ideas on how to improve things for next winter.

Finally, a triple storey Kieler or Apidea isn't an inexpensive way of doing things!  A super split into four compartments over a strong (warm) colony might be better.

----------


## Jon

It's not cheap, but once you have made the initial investment the Apideas should last for decades.
I have read a few bits and bobs on US websites about overwintering queens in nucs or supers above strong colonies and that is definitely an idea worth checking out.
I have 3 nucs overwintered in home made correx boxes and that is cheap ('bout 50p a box) but the thing about the apideas is being able to overwinter a queen with about 1000 bees rather than 5000-10000+ in a nuc.

----------


## bees4u

> It's not cheap, but once you have made the initial investment the Apideas should last for decades.
> I have read a few bits and bobs on US websites about overwintering queens in nucs or supers above strong colonies and that is definitely an idea worth checking out.
> I have 3 nucs overwintered in home made correx boxes and that is cheap ('bout 50p a box) but the thing about the apideas is being able to overwinter a queen with about 1000 bees rather than 5000-10000+ in a nuc.


Hi Jon, do you have the web site or info on the USA's take on over wintering queens ? regards Jean

----------


## Jon

I can't remember where I read it but the principle was to put a couple of nucs with mesh floors above a strong colony with a mesh screen on top so that the rising heat would help the nucs.
In places like Florida the bees forage all year long.


There is a Powerpoint presentation here with a few references.

----------


## bees4u

HI Jon, I found that very interesting, some very good points, thanks very much.

----------


## fatshark

You could also take a look at this thread on Beesource which is about the construction of mini-nucs that fit into a super (or shallow, or whatever it's called in the US).

----------


## nemphlar

Spent the morning making 3frame nucs from some 25mm polystyrene packing, these to replace my old plywood nucs. I've made solid floors from poly, now looks like damp may be an issue. Is anyone using mesh floors on these?

----------


## bees4u

thanks fatshark, that's interesting too. I think I'm going to try & get some deeps made into 4 with a mesh floor & try & over winter them on a strong hive.

----------


## bees4u

> Spent the morning making 3frame nucs from some 25mm polystyrene packing, these to replace my old plywood nucs. I've made solid floors from poly, now looks like damp may be an issue. Is anyone using mesh floors on these?


 I plan to put mesh in my apidea floors for over wintering to see how they do

----------


## Jon

I checked a few colonies today and found a drone laying queen so one of the queens in the Apideas will be getting a new home tomorrow. I squished the drone layer and have just put a queen in a cage ready for introduction tomorrow.

----------


## bees4u

> I checked a few colonies today and found a drone laying queen so one of the queens in the Apideas will be getting a new home tomorrow. I squished the drone layer and have just put a queen in a cage ready for introduction tomorrow.


 Good luck with that Jon, let us know how she does

----------


## nemphlar

Overwintering nucs on strong hives. I don't understand how warm saturated air moving into a colder section gives anything but damp. Is this only in the warmer states?

----------


## bees4u

Fatshark, that was also very useful, I've copied some of the photo's for a chap that makes me equipment, so I'm going to have a go. thanks very much regards Jean

----------


## Jon

Just in from a BKA meeting and I was talking to one of our beginners. last June nine members of the beginner group bought an Apidea and as part of our queen rearing group activities they were given a bonus of a cupful of bees and a virgin queen. The idea was to give them some hands on experience of manipulating bees and a chance to observe them at work. None of them had kept bees before. This chap came up to me tonight and asked how he was going to get his bees into a proper nuc.
I was impressed, as he has kept a little colony of bees alive in an apidea between June and March and I never imagined that any of these queens would mate and survive a winter.

----------


## gavin

Cracking report, cracking.  Top marks to the man from Belfast who decided to give this a try.  Do you plan to find out about the others?  Can he move them up to a nuc?  Did he do it with a feeder on top or just a plain Apidea?

----------


## Jon

I think they were just an a single Apidea but I know some of them were offered feeders as well. I would be amazed if any of the others made it. I bumped into one woman in the local Lidl at the end of the summer and her Apidea had been gnawed by her sister in law's fox terrier leaving any possible queen mating in jeopardy.

----------


## Feckless Drone

I've used a Kieler mini-hive to get a Q mated and going. I wanted to try this out since its bigger than the apidea and by putting another chamber on top I thought you get get a good colony to winter a Q. The top chambers are out of stock so that is not going to happen. The lack of a good crown board is a fault but I used an old piece of X-ray film. Just the right weight and thickness and good for viewing. Now got a lovely Q going, eggs everywhere but I am wondering if i can get her to build up a colony rather than use her to re-Q anything. I needed a Q 4-6 weeks ago but don't now. Any suggestions for how to progress her onto a nuc? Would it require bees from elsewhere or just try with some comb and feeding and the bees with her at present? Interested to hear any experiences. I have seen the apideas in action and working well, and the design does seem superior, I like the excluder from the feeder in particular.

FD

----------


## Jon

> Any suggestions for how to progress her onto a nuc?


Get a frame of sealed brood on the point of hatching and another frame of drawn comb and another of stores and put them in a nuc the rest of which is insulated dummy boards.
Shake all the bees and queen out of your Kieler on to the frame of sealed brood and leave the nuc on the site of the Kieler.
Remove the floor from the kieler and put it over the feed hole of another colony so that its brood is not wasted.
The bees will move up and cover the brood.
After a week, the brood in the nuc will all have hatched and the queen will have laid up the frame with eggs.
Find another frame of sealed brood on the point of hatching and swap it for the frame of eggs/small larvae after shaking off all the bees and queen if she is on it.
Remove the dummy boards and add another frame or two of drawn comb or stores.
You should have a reasonably well populated 5 frame nuc after a couple of weeks as the bees from one frame of sealed brood cover about 3 frames when it hatches.

I did exactly this with an overwintered apidea about a month ago and it is now covering 7 frames.

----------


## fatshark

I've also used zip ties to hold two Kieler frames inside a national brood frame - its a botch but it can be done.  Apidea frames are smaller and I think the Cushman site shows a way of holding them.  The Kieler was a double decker so made six 'full' frames.  I've swapped these out as the colony built up and they're now filling a hive AND superseded the overwintered queen  :Frown: 

The bees build brace comb between the Kieler combs, but this can easily be cut out and the frames reused.

One thing that hasn't worked for me is balancing a nuc on top of the Kieler and hoping the bees move up.  I tried this early this season and they stayed resolutely in the Kieler.  Perhaps it was too cold?

It still is  :Frown:

----------


## Feckless Drone

Thanks Jon & Fatshark,

I see the logic of working this up so will give it a go.

FD

----------


## Beregondo

> Hi Jon, do you have the web site or info on the USA's take on over wintering queens ? regards Jean


Jean, I'm not Jon, and I know it's months later, but here are links to a video of Michael Palmer's talk on overwintering nucs. He has been doing it successfully for years in Vermont, near the Canadian border on Lake Champlain:

http://vimeo.com/search?q=palmer+overwintering+nucs

He experimented with putting a super on each half of his nucs last winter and now prefers this. The supers are (2) 4 frame boxes he sets on top of the double nuc box he describes in the video.




> Overwintering nucs on strong hives. I don't understand how warm saturated air moving into a colder section gives anything but damp. Is this only in the warmer states?


That _would_ give nothing but damp, and would likely kill the colony.
There is no screen nor communication between the strong hive beneath and the nucs on top. While _some_  heat rises to the nucs, the primary reason for putting them on top of production hives is to get them up out of the snow so the entrances are not blocked and cleansing flights are not hindered.

I live in upstate New York, in Elmira.
I'm intending to experiment with Palmer's ideas on overwintering nucs this winter. Our winters are not as sever as his: where he routinely see temps as low as -29C, here we only get a week or two at about -26.

If the nucs I have presently progress well enough,  I should be able to split them in time to prepare for winter and have 10-12 as winter starts. That should be enough for a meaningful sample to assess the method.

----------

