# General beekeeping > Starting out >  When is it too late to split/AS/Raise a new Queen?

## Neils

Just reading Jon's Blog post about swarm cells and already being concerned about a couple of hives trying to supersede, when is it too late?

The queen I have that came into lay in late july last year and raised the colony that came through winter is being superseded at the moment as is one of her offspring. Her other daughter has 5 supers on the go so I'm a little suprised to see supersedure cells turning up now.

When is it getting late in the season to see swarm or supersedure cells that stand a chance to build up?

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## Jon

I have a couple of colonies headed by queens which hatched in August and it was in to September when one of them started laying. The previous year I had a queen mated at the end of September.
A lot depends on the weather as usual as queens can fail to mate.
If you have a couple of colonies you can equalize them by shifting brood about.
If you have a small colony you can swap a frame of eggs for a frame of sealed brood about to hatch from a stronger colony to give it a boost.
If you do this one a week you can build up a small colony to a decent one in a month.
5 frame nucs overwinter well.

Are your cells definitely supersedure, ie just one or two.
I had more like 10 in each of the colonies I split the other day.

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## Trog

I've had bees swarm in September before now!

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## gavin

Late supercedure, much later than this, isn't a worry as long as there are drones around. Saw two supercedure cells today in a split from a hive at the association apiary.  Another split from that colony has worker comb with quite a bit of scattered drone, and both of them were rather bad-tempered.  Perhaps the early swarming gave poor mating.

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## Jimbo

Hi Gavin,

I had 2 split colonies that turned out to be bad tempered. It turned out there was no new queen or the queen had died. I used one colony for making up apideas and the other I put a new queen cell into that seemed to quiet them down.

Jimbo

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## gavin

Hi Jim

The two supercedure cells are stuck together so I'll leave them in peace.  I do have queen cells ready to hatch in a few days in my own apiary - from a better stock too - so I plan to find and destroy the droney queen and replace her with a foil-protected ripe cell from there.

Swarming seems to be continuing into July here this year.  I picked one up last night and am now back to the number of colonies I'd like to keep - thanks largely to the generosity of three new beekeepers.  You know who you are!

Gavin

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## Jimbo

Hi Gavin,

Did a quick check of 12 colonies today so see how they are getting on and to get more supers on. I did see 1 charged queen cell in a nuc which I cut out but it looks like swarming in our area of the west coast has settled down and just hoping for a good honey crop.

Jimbo

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## Jon

> Hi Gavin,
> 
> Did a quick check of 12 colonies today so see how they are getting on and to get more supers on. I did see 1 charged queen cell in a nuc which I cut out but it looks like swarming in our area of the west coast has settled down and just hoping for a good honey crop.
> Jimbo


Mine have only started making queen cells in the last 10 days. I found two with queen cells last week and split them and I found queen cells in two huge double brood colonies this week as well. I removed the queens to a nuc in each case as the bees are cramming in the nectar and I don't want to split. I knocked down all the more advanced queen cells as well to buy a bit more time. I might wait a week and combine each of them with a nuc with a 2010 queen.
I'm not complaining. A lot of people have had colonies swarming since early May.

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## gavin

Any idea why yours waited when others didn't?  Are your stocks better selected for lack of swarminess?

G.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jon,
I could almost set my watch by the date my bees start swarm cells. They always start on the 20th to 23rd May. This is on single national brood. One year I tried double brood with some colonies which stopped the queen producing any queen cells but I found working double brood a bit like hard work and did not get much more honey. Another beekeeper about 12 miles from me gets swarming in the first 2 weeks in May every year. It would be interesting to know if others get swarm cells produced at the same time every year.

Jimbo

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## Jimbo

Hi Gavin,

Had a visit from Margie today and she mentioned that her swarming is also late in Wester Ross and also her queen rearing goes on longer in the season than our area. It looks like geographical variation as well as possible less swarmy bees.

Jimbo

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## Jon

> Any idea why yours waited when others didn't?  Are your stocks better selected for lack of swarminess?
> 
> G.


Last year they were swarmy so I doubt if selection has played any part.
I gave a few strong colonies a second brood box and I have also been removing any frames with just stores so that the queen is not cramped.
One of the two colonies I used for grafting (Col 31) has not made any queen cells yet and it is a big colony on double brood so it might be worth persevering with the genetics of that one. I have four daughter queens from it mated with predominantly Galtee drones. They have only been laying for a week and one of them is still in an Apidea.
Jimbo I still have my eye on that Mars Bar as Col 31 was 85% AMM according to DrawWing and I  brought my Apideas to an Apiary with Galtee stock.

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## gavin

You must persuade Margie to come on here!

My peak swarming is usually exactly the same time as you Jim.  However this year they were late, probably a combination of a seriously weakened colony and the cool spring. 

The association bees were early this year, in early May, - perhaps influenced by the copious willow available where they are. 

G.

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## Adam

Last year we have a very early start to the seaon and I had swarm cells at the end of April. This year I had one colony swarm in early May with 8 frames of brood. The daughter now has queencells in her hive of 7 frames of brood in a 16 frame hive (as of yesterday) so she is going and will be replaced by a better genetic line! In fact I re-marked her and clipped her and she was immediately attacked by a worker which I stabbed with my marking pen to get her off. If the queen is balled I am not too worried, with that sort of swarmy tendancy. It will save me the guilt of squashing her!

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