# General beekeeping > Scaling up and marketing >  Third party services

## Neils

Mulling things over as much as anything.

I'm considering setting up shop, quite literally, selling both honey/bee related products to "the public" and also offering products and services to Beekeepers.

There's no point trying to compete with the likes of Thorne and maisemore, fully accept that, I was thinking more along the lines of offering honey extraction, frame cleaning (I hesitate to use the word sterilisation), wax processing and perhaps bottling.

In terms of cost to use those services I was thinking that asking a % of the harvest might be preferable to charging a set fee.  That, hopefully, makes it attractive to the 1-2 hive beekeeper while ensuring that raw materials keep coming in.

So the questions are, assuming I opened this close enough to make it interesting, and assuming you haven't already got all the kit:

1) would a DIY extraction facility in a commercial grade food preparation area, with motorised extractors be of interest to people?

2) likewise a facility where you could drop off brood boxes and supers full of old frames and get them back cleaned up with processed wax?

3) in terms of paying for service like that is a flat fee of cold hard cash preferable or would giving over a % of the total be easier?

4) if a % is preferable is a simple flat % than a sliding scale?

4a) if a flat rate is preferable, how much, for half a day, would you consider a fair rate? Lets pick, for arguments sake £20 on the assumption you bring the buckets etc and have to clean the gear at the end.

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## prakel

£20 per hour (but you clean the kit) might be fairer to you. Ultimately I imagine that you'd prefer to do the cleaning yourself or through a subcontractor who's then responsible.

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## Jon

Hi Neil.
It would never work here as many people wont pay for anything, even their bees or queens.
The expectation is that other beekeepers will sort them out when they run into problems no matter how many hours of your time it involves.
I have gone over some of the same issues as you and done back of the envelope calculations but I can't see a way to make it worthwhile as a business.

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## Neils

I've done back of fag pack calculations for a while now and there is more to this than purely just doing "the services".

I agree that potentially, there possibly isn't much there in honey extraction, but I need it for my own purposes. likewise wax, likewise cleaning frames.

I'm very much considering a scatter gun approach on the basis that I can't do a Murray and scale up to several thousand hives but that where I am located I can do something along the lines of: http://www.thehivehoneyshop.co.uk

Granted they are backed by their own apiaries when it comes to selling honey and related products but that's half of what I'm considering, the other half is making those facilities that I need available to others.  Maybe the honey extraction itself doesn't do much, once you get 2-3 hives getting your own extractor is a natural thing to want to consider. But I know here I can't put the kit I need in to sort out frames in bulk and wax production is a pain.

I agree that asking for cold hard cash might not be the way to go, hence considering just asking for a percentage of the overall take.

I've mulled this over for some time, hence sticking a post up here to garner some other opinions. To do just Honey and related stuff requires far more apiaries than I'm likely to get any time soon, let alone getting the hives and bees to bring that sort of income in.

I might yet be barking up the wrong tree, believe me I haven't discounted that just yet.

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## Neils

> £20 per hour (but you clean the kit) might be fairer to you. Ultimately I imagine that you'd prefer to do the cleaning yourself or through a subcontractor who's then responsible.


I think whether you ask the user of the kit to do cleaning or not, as the owner of the place you'd have to go over it again to make sure that everything is cleaned properly, it's just a case of has it done enough to make the final once over as painless as possible.

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## prakel

That's a fair response and I can appreciate where you're coming from. On another level (which I wasn't thinking of initially) if you're paying for such a service you would probably expect the cleaning to be done for you. I would.

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## HJBee

> 1) would a DIY extraction facility in a commercial grade food preparation area, with motorised extractors be of interest to people?


Yes, it would to me (if you we're near enough)




> 2) likewise a facility where you could drop off brood boxes and supers full of old frames and get them back cleaned up with processed wax?


Again, yes




> 3) in terms of paying for service like that is a flat fee of cold hard cash preferable or would giving over a % of the total be easier?
> 
> 4) if a % is preferable is a simple flat % than a sliding scale?
> 
> 4a) if a flat rate is preferable, how much, for half a day, would you consider a fair rate? Lets pick, for arguments sake £20 on the assumption you bring the buckets etc and have to clean the gear at the end.


All depends on the size of the crop / harvest. If small a beekeeper with 1-2 hives may prefer to pay and get the full crop back. A bigger crop and a percentage of the crop may be preferable. Would you consider either or - may attract different potential customers then.

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## Jimbo

Hi Nellie,

We have something like this in Scotland although not all located in the same place. Auchencruive the Agricultural college will extract your honey and jar it for you if required. Some local beekeepers use this service. For frame cleaning Gavin is involved in a scheme in Perthshire. He might be able to explain more. In Demark there is a frame cleaning and wax processing set up where you get your frames back with fresh sheets of foundation already fitted. I think the main problem would people be willing to part with their cash. A bit of local market research is needed to see if this service is viable.

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## chris

> I've done back of fag pack calculations for a while now .


I think you'd probably make more by giving up smoking :Smile: 

If you are aiming at the hobby beekeepers, why would they want someone else to do something for them that is part of the fun?
If you are aiming at people who want to make money themselves, then you need to be cheaper than they already are. Or to be doing something that they don't want to do. This means you'll have the thankless tasks, but still be under pressure to be as cheap as possible (whether money or percentage).
Often something that on a small scale is fine, on a larger scale becomes a headache.

I honestly believe that some people have the *gift* of being able to make money, and the rest of us don't. The problem is that most want to make money. It's a bit like everyone trying to kick a football around a field. I don't know which category you fit into, but you probably do.

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## Neils

I'm aware of the saying "if you want to make a small fortune out of beekeeping, start with a large one".  :Smile: 

You might well be right, but there are lots of people round here who rely on borrowing kit either from friends or the association and they're the ones I'm hoping might be interested in what I have in mind.

And it has also occurred to me that it might just be quicker and easier to set fire to £30,000+ and be done with it  :Smile:

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## Bumble

> I can do something along the lines of: http://www.thehivehoneyshop.co.uk


Did you notice that say they will remove swarms of both honey and bumble bees?

If you're seriously thinking of offering a honey extraction service then you might consider the people in my BKA who have bought their own extractors rather than hire a club one at £1 a day, because they reckoned their petrol money would be recouped in next to no time and, if they choose to sell it on, second hand prices are quite high. The club extractors are, currently, housed at the north of the area. For those living in the south the round trip is about 100 miles, so double that to collect and return an extractor.

The only people I know who do more than break even from beekeeping-related activities are those with hundreds or thousands of hives, people who offer private lessons to newcomers and those who raise and sell stock. It might be different in your area.

I think that offering a service which saves people time and effort might only appeal to those with spare cash and not enough spare time. Would you also offer collection and return?

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## Neils

I honestly don't know at the moment. The extraction facility is as much for me but if you've got it...  I think the honey extraction is less likely to be used compared to frame cleaning. I know it's not a particularly difficult thing to do DIY, but it comes down to space and mess. I physically can't fit the necessary kit where I am at the moment, so I'm having a few fun and games trying to sort out something that will let me clean frames in bulk but doesn't take up a lot of space.

I am in the sandal wearing, brown rice eating, support your local business, down wiv Starbucks and Tesco part of town so there is an element of thinking about every conceivable thing I can do. So I want to sell honey and wax and propolis related things, but also offer workshops, talks on the one hand and things that might be useful to beekeepers on the other.

There are a reasonable number of things that I find a pain to get my hands on, OA, Acetic acid, enough Ambrosia etc when I need it rather than trying to get hold of enough of the stuff and having to find somewhere to store it and so on.

I do have some acceptance of the point around the extraction, I bought my own extractor for similar reasons.

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## Poly Hive

Beekeepers are notoriously tight fisted. Read that three times and ponder for fifteen minutes. 

Cleaning frames? can you make it cheaper than buying new? 

Extracting.. forget it there are so many issues it's just not funny. Bob Couston found that out the hard way. That's not my honey being the first one. Moisture content another, I gave you twenty supers there should be 600lbs not 350.. and so on and so on... complete nightmare. 

Having tried to be altruistic over the years and been bitten more than once very hard in the a**e I wouldn't even think about it. Sad I know but that is how it is and it's far better to be given hard and painful advice BEFORE the money is spent, than to be told AFTERWARDS... oh I knew that wouldn't work....

PH

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## Neils

That's why I asked the question.

I'm prepared to believe its a non starter, and that what seems a good idea in your head doesn't pan out that way in reality.

I can dream though  :Smile:

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## Poly Hive

The trick is to avoid the dream becoming a living nightmare.....  :Wink: 

PH

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## prakel

> The trick is to avoid the dream *becoming a living nightmare*..... 
> 
> PH


Having had personal experience of just such a thing I whole-heartedly concur. The financial loss also cost me a whole lot of time which was the hardest thing to set right. 

But it's still good to bounce ideas around, we have no chance of achieving anything beyond the ordinary if we don't 'have a go' at some point.

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## Jon

I think it's possible to make a few bob on the side in a good year but the idea of making a decent living from beekeeping seems pretty tenuous.
Weather wise where I live there are rarely any good years.
This year I extracted 400lbs of honey, reared about 40 grafted queens and made up about 20 nucs but that involved a massive amount, ie, almost all of my free time over the summer.
The other possible income stream is tuition but I think that should be the domain of the local associations.

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## Calum

make nucs, and plenty of them. I sell about 10-15 per year, two other guys I cooperate with sell upwards of 60 per year.
The going price is 120€ and we don't get close to meeting local demand. Its certainly much less work than harvesting and selling large amounts of honey.
-there are so many poor quality beekeepers that continually loose their colonies that this market will not dry up soon...

Virgin wax for creams and lip balsam sells for silly prices aswell on (german) e-bay (I've seen people pay 8€ for 100g), lip balsam also sells really well, I do a small run in the winter of honey beeswax and olive or grape seed oil for 3€/25g.

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## Poly Hive

Tuition the domain of the LA?????????

Err........ Depends does it not on the competence of said LA. Having been a committee member of a seriously moribund and very large Assoc, their tuition was shall we be kind and say a bit behind the times. 

Can you make money from bees, for sure you can but how... it all depends. You can go big, witness Denroasa, or you can go specialist witness Struan, or you can go a bit of everything and the gentleman who does with magnificent candles escapes my memory at the moment, but yes it is possible. 

But note all these routes, do not encompass the "bloody beekeeper" as the wife of a very successful friend of mine calls them. That is the ones that turn up for some foundation, and then after picking the brains for an hour or so say "well yes but I only want two sheets...."

PH

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## Bumble

> make nucs, and plenty of them. I sell about 10-15 per year, two other guys I cooperate with sell upwards of 60 per year.
> The going price is 120 and we don't get close to meeting local demand. Its certainly much less work than harvesting and selling large amounts of honey.
> -there are so many poor quality beekeepers that continually loose their colonies that this market will not dry up soon...


Nucs in our area started at, I think, £150 or £175 this year. Locally mated queens were from £30, Danish buckfasts were silly money. There's only one "reliable" supplier, who always has a long waiting list.

At least one of our committee members offers private lessons starting at £40/hour per person, for small groups of up to 6 people. I can't comment on the quality of their tuition.

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## Calum

wow, come to Germany I'll give tuition for half that and throw in the beer for free!

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## Jon

> I can't comment on the quality of their tuition


That's why I think the BKA should be the vehicle for tuition as beekeeping is full of big egos who think they know better than everyone else whether they get the results or provide an adequate service. Don't worry Neil, not thinking of you!

I was at a committee meeting of my BKA yesterday evening.
Sometimes I disagree with other committee members on issues and I expect people to disagree with me if they think any proposals I have are not viable. That seems to me to be a perfectly healthy situation.
Beekeepers need to work together within an organization towards common goals - and in an ideal world neighbouring associations have similar goals. If they don't, it is good to get together to sort out the common ground. This can be difficult when not everyone is a team player.
Last night we spent a lot of the meeting discussing queen rearing and nuc supply. This is one area where a coordinated programme will trump the individual every time as the nucs are largely standardised for quality and are not made up with a mish mash of mongrel and imported queens.
The proposal is to supply nucs which remain at the association apiary for a while while the beginners get a few weeks tuition re. their management.

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## Easy beesy

[QUOTE
At least one of our committee members offers private lessons starting at £40/hour per person, for small groups of up to 6 people. I can't comment on the quality of their tuition.[/QUOTE]

Aye, there's a lot of it about!  Dodgy supply and overwhelming demand recently.

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