# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  A battle is raging....apparently!

## drumgerry

http://www.scotsman.com/news/environ...pers-1-2880342

I see the letter referred to is from that paragon of reasoned debate Graham White/borderbeeman.  The quotations are absurd in the extreme - the extinction of every bird and bee beckons courtesy of neonics apparently.  Do these journalists take the time to even find out whose propaganda they're publishing?  Nice picture of a bumble though - clearly their photo library doesn't extend to the honeybee.

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## worm (JTF3)

> http://www.scotsman.com/news/environ...pers-1-2880342
> 
> I see the letter referred to is from that paragon of reasoned debate Graham White/borderbeeman.  The quotations are absurd in the extreme - the extinction of every bird and bee beckons courtesy of neonics apparently.  Do these journalists take the time to even find out whose propaganda they're publishing?  Nice picture of a bumble though - clearly their photo library doesn't extend to the honeybee.


   In many ways he is a 'paragon of reasoned debate'. 
   I don't think he posted this piece on this forum,so I'll give the link: http://www.gdriveurl.com/?idl=813645622675&out=1
   I fail to see how anybody would not be moved to try to change some of our current practices after reading this coherent observational essay on our foolish mistreatment of wildlife.
   It takes a while to read, but well worth it. Good photos,too.

It would be good if some of those who voted against Eric's motion were to read Graham's piece above, then reflect.(Gavin, Jon, Phil?)

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## wee willy

Rachel Carson (The Silent Spring ) Rang alarm bells 60 years ago regarding the indiscriminate use of insecticides and herbicides!
WW 


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## worm (JTF3)

> Rachel Carson (The Silent Spring ) Rang alarm bells 60 years ago regarding the indiscriminate use of insecticides and herbicides!
> WW 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


  If that is meant as a comparison,I'm sure he would be flattered.
  Another comparison could be with the writings of John Muir.

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## worm (JTF3)

> In many ways he is a 'paragon of reasoned debate'. 
>    I don't think he posted this piece on this forum,so I'll give the link: http://www.gdriveurl.com/?idl=813645622675&out=1
>    I fail to see how anybody would not be moved to try to change some of our current practices after reading this coherent observational essay on our foolish mistreatment of wildlife.
>    It takes a while to read, but well worth it. Good photos,too.
> 
> It would be good if some of those who voted against Eric's motion were to read Graham's piece above, then reflect.


Nobody found the time to read and reply?

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## drumgerry

Life's too short.

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## Neils

> Nobody found the time to read and reply?


People who have *time* on their hands will _inevitably_ waste the time of *people* who have work to do.

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## The Drone Ranger

Yes read, enjoyed and thanks for the link 
A very well reasoned article.

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## The Drone Ranger

> People who have *time* on their hands will _inevitably_ waste the time of *people* who have work to do.


Thats me in a nutshell  :Smile:

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## worm (JTF3)

> Life's too short.


 And it's you who criticises me for posting irrelevant stuff here!

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## worm (JTF3)

> People who have *time* on their hands will _inevitably_ waste the time of *people* who have work to do.


 Well, I started early,worked all day, and am still prepared to post now. Zealot, idiot, call me what you will, you should read Graham's piece.

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## drumgerry

> And it's you who criticises me for posting irrelevant stuff here!


Sorry the extent of my life is far from irrelevant and certainly it's far too short to be engaging in pointless round the houses arguments with you Eric.  I wonder if it seems coincidental to anyone else that the tone of the forum has been somewhat compromised since your return.

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## worm (JTF3)

worm is not eric. it's a nematode with attitude...

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## Jon

Hi Eric
I read it a few days ago when he posted it elsewhere.
It is not a world I recognize as my garden and my allotment are full of birdlife.
I saw a pair of goldcrests on the allotment last week. Lovely wee birds.
I have bullfinches in the garden waiting to have a go at the buds on my fruit trees.
Starlings and sparrows are in decline they say but I have loads in my garden as well so things seem not too bad here.
Graham's piece was nicely written but I stopped taking him seriously a long time ago as everything he puts forward is to further his anti neonicotinoid campaign irrespective of inconvenient facts which sometimes get in the way. He is not an impartial commentator.

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## worm (JTF3)

> Hi Eric
> I read it a few days ago when he posted it elsewhere.
> It is not a world I recognize as my garden and my allotment are full of birdlife.
> I saw a pair of goldcrests on the allotment last week. Lovely wee birds.
> I have bullfinches in the garden waiting to have a go at the buds on my fruit trees.
> Starlings and sparrows are in decline they say but I have loads in my garden as well so things seem not too bad here.
> Graham's piece was nicely written but I stopped taking him seriously a long time ago as everything he puts forward is to further his anti neonicotinoid campaign irrespective of inconvenient facts which sometimes get in the way. He is not an impartial commentator.


So, do you say that Graham's observations in Kew Gardens are somehow false?
It's obviously good that you still have Goldcrests,Bullfinches etc round you, but surely you see the overall thrust of his argument?

Kew is supposed to be where our future horticulturalists are trained for god's sake..

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## Bumble

> So, do you say that Graham's observations in Kew Gardens are somehow false?


Not false, but an inaccurate representation.

The birds in Kew aren't captive, they can choose where they prefer to be. You can go to Kew and see no birds at all, because they've flown somewhere quieter to either do whatever they want to do. If you get there early in the day there are loads, same thing later in the evening when the crowds have gone home. 

I have a lot of birds living in, and visiting, my garden. I can see them through my windows but they vanish the moment I walk outside. If I start digging the garden I'm guaranteed to get either a robin or a blackbird under my feet, but none of the others will come near if they see human activity.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi worm

I know you would call for the SBA conference to ban neonic pesticides,
That's fair enough, but is the evidence of bee losses due to neonics strong
When beekeepers marched on Parliament were they overstating their case even back then, claiming CCD was wiping out their bees? 
Most of the £10 million the government allocated went to other worthy causes protecting pollinators
There are many organisations campaigning on the environment and it would seem odd if the SBA appeared not to support them
But at the end of the day if bees are not being killed by neonics how can we call for a ban

P.s. don't any of you guys sleep  :Smile:

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## Jon

> That's fair enough, but is the evidence of bee losses due to neonics strong


DR
If you are talking about honey bees, the evidence of harm via pollen and nectar from seed treated crops is minimal.
7.5 million hectares of oil seed rape is grown in Canada where it forms the basis of the honey crop.
The honey bee deaths have almost all been from planter dust from drilling maize.

Soil drenches and foliar sprays are a problem but we have little or none of that in the UK.
Sunflowers can be a problem but it has been noted that bees which forage exclusively on Sunflowers don't live as long anyway so that may not be exclusively a pesticide issue.

The risks may be greater for other pollinators such as bumble bees as claimed by Dave Goulson.

The problem to a large extent is modern agriculture.
Even taking neonics right out of the picture, you are still left with monoculture and this is bad for bees from a nutritional point of view unless they are moved to a new site after the flowering period of the crop is over.
People like me who don't move bees about need to locate them on sites where there is pollen and nectar available from March to October.
In the years where I have oil seed rape nearby, that's only a bonus for one month out of the 8.

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR
> 
> The problem to a large extent is modern agriculture.
> People like me who don't move bees about need to locate them on sites where there is pollen and nectar available from March to October.
> In the years where I have oil seed rape nearby, that's only a bonus for one month out of the 8.


I read about people who have all year round foraging and take their honey off once a year in August or September and just think if only I could do that.
I'm on a 5 acre small holding which apart from the topping mower and my spuds (small patch) is left alone and I don't move the bees
The surrounding farmland always has lots of rape every year so my whole beekeeping life is controlled by it
The bees I have are all crossed by the migratory bees
The bees that arrive are genetically suited to be very strong in time for rape 
The honey has to be extracted before it goes brick hard
The crop just disappears and the bees don't like that 
The spring build up is very rapid and swarming comes early
There is an old country estate bordering me (although migratory bees sometimes go there as well)
On another thread the luck Russian chap showed a picture of vipers bugloss
I though yes!!  I'll have some of that!  but alas wrong soil type here, too wet  :Smile:

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## Jon

Most of mine are near the River Lagan which has clover, dandelion, balsam and bramble along the towpath. I also have a couple of old estates nearby as well as hundreds of suburban gardens. The estates have Lime trees willow and sycamore. I have oil seed rape in the area maybe every other year but the last couple of years it has hardly produced anything as it rained all the time.

What do yours forage on after the rape?

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## The Drone Ranger

Lots of flowers willows hazel snowdrops early on then  lots of weeds dandilions, trees, Rose bay willow herb, Hogweed, thistles, etc. which grow on my bit  :Smile:  + all the flowering stuff in the big estate
Balsam later in year.
Last year they mainly foraged in the supers and ate the whole lot  :Smile: 
I have the microscope off the top of the cupboard again for the nosema checks so might do some pollen sampling this year

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## Adam

Wouldn't it be nice to settle the neonicitionid debate like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcSMaNlcDPs

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## Adam

> last year they mainly foraged in the supers ...


lol  :Smile:

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## madasafish

I watched a farming program produced in 1965. It quoted a 50% decline in insect life then. From where it was in the 1940s. Attributed to loss of habitat and insecticides.

One of the unforseen consequences of a neonics ban is likely be some reduction in yields and therefore to further pressure to plough up more countryside. (the same pressure exists with a growing UK and world population.

So I doubt whether a neonics ban will make any noticeable difference.


Living on the edge of town with fields and woods nearby, we have lots of birds - and an increasing raptor population - lots of foxes and badgers and LOTS of flying insects. the bat population bear that out.  

No OSR within 10 miles as a minimum. Nor any ploughed fields either but human population pressure means more and more houses with minimal gardens being built on unspoiled rough land And marshes drained. All bad for all wildlife especially insects.


If the anti neonics campaign had wider horizons.. but it's the "one big push and we'll save the bee" attitude. Any semi competent observer can see habitat depletion is a bigger problem.

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## wee willy

WELL DAID THAT MAN!
VM 


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## Neils

> Well, I started early,worked all day, and am still prepared to post now. Zealot, idiot, call me what you will, you should read Graham's piece.


Why should I read it? he just copies and pastes stuff with the odd bit of highlighting.

It's interesting that he now appears to be an official spokesman for Friends of the Bees and more so that their only action so far is to bemoan beekeeping, and other, organisations for not toeing their line in campaigning against Bayer.

Here isn't the place to raise some legitimate concerns about that organisation but I'm all ears as to why I should pay any attention to him.

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## The Drone Ranger

I was looking at earlier threads where the survey East to West results were given
Not being a member I wasn't aware of the survey (didn't take part either )
I wonder if the swarming and rapid spring build up in the East had an effect
Also the varroa treatment regimes seem different I don't hear of much formic acid use unlike the West
On the whole though I would expect 5% losses unless I am taking colonies into Winter which I know I shouldn't

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## worm (JTF3)

> Why should I read it? he just copies and pastes stuff with the odd bit of highlighting.
> 
> It's interesting that he now appears to be an official spokesman for Friends of the Bees and more so that their only action so far is to bemoan beekeeping, and other, organisations for not toeing their line in campaigning against Bayer.
> 
> Here isn't the place to raise some legitimate concerns about that organisation but I'm all ears as to why I should pay any attention to him.


   Chiefly for the quality of the writing and the mixture of personal observations with reflections on the causes of the environmental changes he describes.
 It's obviously up to any reader to evaluate any conclusions he makes or suggests, but to fob off pieces such as http://www.gdriveurl.com/?idl=813645622675&out=1 as just bemoaning beekeeping, or not worth reading, is a mistake. (IMHO ha,ha...)

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## worm (JTF3)

> Wouldn't it be nice to settle the neonicitionid debate like this?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcSMaNlcDPs


That's one way. Here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjRGee5ipM

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## gavin

Are you trying to say that we should be doing nothing to protect endangered species?  Great Yellows anyone?!

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## worm (JTF3)

> Are you trying to say that we should be doing nothing to protect endangered species?  Great Yellows anyone?!


Just the suggestion that if we get it all wrong for us, something will probably carry on.
My current preference,which I assume most of us share, is that we don't mess up too quickly.
 Whether the bees will go before us, or whether it matters, is a cute philosophical question.
 But I think the solution is more in our hands than in our bees' hands,maybe....

 (ok they don't have hands, or foetuses)

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## worm (JTF3)

Look,Gavin, you could ban me if you want, but are my occassional 'challenging' or 'insulting' comments so bad? 
 I've worked for 40 years to set up a 'sustainable' healthy place to produce food ,live, and not wreck the wildlife set-up.
 It's not an easy thing to get right, especially after last year's crap weather.
 The people I challenge are all big boys. I don't really see my agenda as being opposed to any other individual's.How could it be?

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## Jon

Where do you keep your bees worm and how have they overwintered?
I will take your previous comment at face value that you are not Eric.

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## worm (JTF3)

> Where do you keep your bees worm and how have they overwintered?
> I will take your previous comment at face value that you are not Eric.


Two hives,within 500 yards of the nothern Atlantic coast. Both active, but hoping it will stop snowing everyday and freezing every night.
 All of our other colonies have survived the winter,so far.

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## Jon

You are lucky to have bees in a varroa free zone.
Varroa plus virus is an even bigger factor in colony loss than the weather although the weather has been dire for about 10 months now.
Locally we have lots of very small colonies which are just about hanging on but will succumb if the weather does not improve very soon.

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## worm (JTF3)

> You are lucky to have bees in a varroa free zone.
> Varroa plus virus is an even bigger factor in colony loss than the weather although the weather has been dire for about 10 months now.
> Locally we have lots of very small colonies which are just about hanging on but will succumb if the weather does not improve very soon.


It's possible I owe you the odd apology,but wasn't sure you needed it ,or was banned before I could....

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## Jon

I have a thick skin and I judge things on evidence.
I don't get swayed by any of the zealots no matter how right they imagine themselves to be.

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## worm (JTF3)

Good for you.
Hope your skin is not so thick that nothing new gets in!

(note to self: stop before insult!)
 Have you read Graham's piece on Birds and Bees?

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## Jon

I change my views all the time on the basis of evidence.
I started out about 5 years ago thinking that neonicotinoids were a big problem for bees but the more I read the less convinced I became.
I could still be convinced they are a major problem but the evidence is just not there for honeybees no matter how much bolding and underling you get from Graham White. Anyway, he thinks that anyone who disagrees with him works for bayer or a lobby group! Bonkers!
There is more doubt around the risk to pollinators other than honey bees as far as I can see,

I also have more doubts about wing morphometry than I had when I started out with that, again due to reading plenty and also debating with a few sceptics who are well informed about it.

I never get swayed by ranting, campaigning, conspiracy theories or politicians and/or  journalists jumping on a topical bandwagon.

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## worm (JTF3)

Still,what about the article on Birds and Bees?

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## Jon

It's just his usual stuff claiming there is a holocaust that only exists in his own universe.
Did you see the petition he started yesterday about Amazon?




> Neonicotinoid insecticides have killed more than 10 million bee colonies worldwide since 1994.
> They have killed billions of bumblebees, butterflies, ladybirds, hoverflies, beetles and earthworms.
> They are the prime suspect in the death of over millions of birds in Europe and the USA -
> by direct poisoning or by the eradication of almost all insects and worms that birds feed their chicks with.
> No insects = no skylarks. No worms - no blackbirds.


That article he wrote suggested that the region he lives in is like some post apocalyptic wasteland.

The real problem in a wider sense is monoculture and habitat loss.
This total obsession with a ban on neonicotinoid pesticides is diverting funding to the wrong place and leading to a swathe of misleading articles in the press.

This all reminds me of the zealot who claimed that the MMR vaccine caused autism and his scaremongering lead to parents deciding not to vaccinate their children.
the general public don't have a clue and they think they are doing the right thing following the advice of those who shout the loudest, especially when the press take up the case on their behalf.
Some local paper in Wales got behind the anti MMR campaign and the current problems can be traced directly back to this.
Lives will be lost over that shameful campaign.

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## drumgerry

I'll try again with you worm.  I prefer to discuss things civilly and if that's the way it's going to be then fair enough.  I do think you owe Trog an apology for the arrogance with which you stated that your posts are more important than his/hers (sorry I don't know if Trog is a he or she).

To answer your question about Graham White's article - I refuse to read it.  He's been a troll the length and breadth of just about every beekeeping forum the world over for a number of years.  In the process he has defamed a number of people whom I respect.  So I won't willingly read anything he has to say.  He doesn't strike me as a reasonable, rational sort of person and I don't feel the need to give his thoughts any credence by reading them.  Too much water has gone under the bridge I'm afraid.

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## Jon

He is also trolling on several gardening forums about his favourite topic - neonicotinoids.
And he thinks all the forums are controlled by stooges of 'Big Ag', gardening forums and bee forums alike.

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## Trog

I'm so glad someone's brought up the MMR scare.  Too many people swayed by bad science and a media bandwaggon and it's the weans who are paying for adult stupidity.

Drumgerry, I'm a lady wren but rather glad you can't tell that from my posts  :Smile:

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## worm (JTF3)

ok. If it is the case that oak trees in Kew Gardens are being treated with neonics, and I've heard many of London's other trees are also routinely injected by contracted teams,what do you think?
 Is it true? If so, is it justified? Or what?
 Similar question for park lawns, golf courses and all our gardens?

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## Jon

You would need to check the tree thing with someone who is a reliable source.
I have caught Graham telling porkies so many times you would not believe it.
Don't take that stuff at face value. Ring Kew and check with someone competent to answer your questions if you are concerned about it.

It is true that neonicotinoids are now pretty ubiquitous.
The issue is whether they are doing harm.
the seed treated stuff like OSR or maize seems to be a complete red herring as far as I can see.
I am wary about treatment of trees as that can lead to high ppb levels of pesticide which are quite persistent. The citrus trees are a big problem for bees now in Florida.
Check the facts rather than speculating.

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## worm (JTF3)

> It is true that neonicotinoids are now pretty ubiquitous.
> .


 To the extent that it is now seemingly impossible to run any field trial in the UK with a control free of neonics because they are everywhere!
  '
 That,in itself, has to be worrying.

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## Jon

The best trial regarding oil seed rape is the one which has been running for 10-15 years worldwide.
The bees perform well on it including those on the 7.5 million hectares in Canada.
The problem is what comes next.
If there is limited other forage when the rape goes over the bees will have to be moved of they will not get good nutrition.
Bees need a varied source of pollen for about 8-9 months of the year.

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## worm (JTF3)

> Bees need a varied source of pollen for about 8-9 months of the year.


Orkney bees are lucky to get 6 months!

 Are they really quite happy in Canada about the amount of treated OSR?
 (My sister is a chief environmental officer in Nova Scotia. I should probably ask her.)

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## worm (JTF3)

> That article he wrote suggested that the region he lives in is like some post apocalyptic wasteland.
> 
> .


He really didn't say that.
 He lauded the diversity in his own area generally but contrasted that with what could be found both in more heavily farmed areas and some urban locations.
 Believe me,I will try and 'check the facts rather than speculating'. I've been doing it for years...

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## fatshark

> This all reminds me of the zealot who claimed that the MMR vaccine caused autism and his scaremongering lead to parents deciding not to vaccinate their children.
> the general public don't have a clue and they think they are doing the right thing following the advice of those who shout the loudest, especially when the press take up the case on their behalf.
> Some local paper in Wales got behind the anti MMR campaign and the current problems can be traced directly back to this.
> Lives will be lost over that shameful campaign.


Lives were lost ... from: http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPA.../1195733835814

_In 2006 there was one measles death in a 13 years old male who had an underlying lung condition and was taking immunosuppressive drugs. Another death in 2008 was also due to acute measles in unvaccinated child with congenital immunodeficiency whose condition did not require treatment with immunoglobulin.  Prior to 2006, the last death from acute measles was in 1992.

All other measles deaths, since 1992, shown above are in older individuals and were caused by the late effects of measles. These infections were acquired during the 1980s or earlier, when epidemics of measles occurred._

The post-Wakefield deaths from measles in the UK are likely due to either lack of vaccination or lack of herd immunity. The fact that there had been no measles deaths in immunocompromised individuals between '92 and '06 suggests it was not their underlying medical condition but was instead the failure to vaccinate (the individual or community). 

The current outbreak in Swansea is likely due to low levels of vaccination in the late 90's.  Whether there are deaths or not (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ap...idemic-mmr-jab) now there is a real chance of *inevitably* fatal cases of sub-acute sclerosing panencephalitis in years to come in those who catch measles now (these are the 'older individuals' referred to in the quote who acquired epidemic measles).

Globally measles kills about 18 children per hour ...

There are other similarities between the MMR publicity and the current neonic debate ... 

One of the main problems with the MMR issue was that the first publication was in the Lancet - a respected peer-reviewed scientific journal. Scientific publication being what it is (i.e. a means for publishers to make money), a report supporting neonics is unlikely to be definitive enough - due to the complexity of the issue and the confounding issues of habitat destruction, mono-culture etc - to get published in a major journal. Similarly, negative results i.e. field-relevant concentrations of neonics have no detectable influence on x y z are also unlikely to achieve significant airtime.

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## Jon

Amen to all that fatshark and the same thing is happening at the moment where woefully ill informed journalists at the Guardian and the Independent are publishing articles and blogging about how neonicotinoids are wiping out bees and god knows what else. The Guardian bloke is still confusing bumble bees with honeybees and he has been writing about neonicotinoid Armageddon for at least a year.

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## The Drone Ranger

> lack of vaccination or lack of herd immunity..


In Swansea wouldn't it be a flock  :Smile:

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## worm (JTF3)

> You would need to check the tree thing with someone who is a reliable source.
> I have caught Graham telling porkies so many times you would not believe it.
> Don't take that stuff at face value. Ring Kew and check with someone competent to answer your questions if you are concerned about it.
> 
> It is true that neonicotinoids are now pretty ubiquitous..


If I phone Kew and find that what Graham said is true does that mean that you have to be banned from this forum for defamation?
I'll do it tomorrow.~~Don't think I'll insist on a ban though. This is just a forum.

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## Jon

I didn't say he was necessarily wrong in this case. I just asked you to check for yourself. 
Basic fact checking.

Check out this post.

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## The Drone Ranger

"be banned from this forum for defamation?"


EEk!! I was only joking about the Welsh sheep thing

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## Jon

I would say you have a watertight defense DR

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## worm (JTF3)

> "be banned from this forum for defamation?"
> 
> 
> EEk!! I was only joking about the Welsh sheep thing


Nice to see you can treat stuff light, sometimes.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Nice to see you can treat stuff light, sometimes.


Sometimes? ----Always  :Smile:

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## worm (JTF3)

> I'll try again with you worm.  I prefer to discuss things civilly and if that's the way it's going to be then fair enough. 
> To answer your question about Graham White's article - I refuse to read it.  .


Well, that's obviously your choice. His best stuff, I suggest, is worth anybody interested in the natural world reading. 
 He has helped keep the writings of John Muir in print.
 I would say he is a zealot,but I don't see that as a bad thing..
I should know,more than most, that people with strong commitment can be difficult to take,sometimes. But what if they're mostly right? We dismiss them at our peril?

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## Jon

No problem with zealots but you have to get your facts straight and you lose credibility when you stretch the truth too often.
look how often the claims in that article are prefaced with phrases such as 'leads me to suspect' or  'probably accounted for'

or what about the added parentheses and question mark.




> A young gardener told me that all of
> the palms and tropical plants were routinely
> treated with systemic, long acting pesticides
> (neonicotinoids?) and consequently there
> would be little bird life in there as there was
> no insect food.


Another one to check out.

The oak tree claim says 'systemic pesticide', rather than neonicotinoid.

Dont forget to smell the roses and check that one too.

'leads me to suspect'




> but I could not
> find one single honeybee, bumblebee or
> hoverfly in my time among the roses. This
> leads me to suspect that Kew’s roses are
> treated against aphids with systemic neonics,
> which kill and disorient bees at infinitesimal,
> doses.


If you are a smart bloke you need to learn to read smart and note where the wriggle room has been inserted.

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## worm (JTF3)

I'll reply in full after my thoroughgoing interrogation of the Kew Tzars. It could end in a big schamozzle..
 I'm actually not that boffered whether the pesticide on all the trees is actually neonics. Just why...

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## Jon

Good luck.
The author said he phoned on 18 July last year and got no reply.

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## The Drone Ranger

"but I could not
find one single honeybee, bumblebee or
hoverfly in my time among the roses. This
leads me to suspect" _I went at the wrong time of year_ 

My italics  :Smile:

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## worm (JTF3)

> "but I could not
> find one single honeybee, bumblebee or
> hoverfly in my time among the roses. This
> leads me to suspect" _I went at the wrong time of year_ 
> 
> My italics


yes, you do treat stuff light....

by the by, lambing shepherds don't fully sleep-they just act that way..

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## Jon

...and honey bees never forage on roses anyway!

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## worm (JTF3)

touche'

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## The Drone Ranger

> yes, you do treat stuff light....
> 
> by the way, lambing shepherds don't fully sleep-they just act that way..


I might be the Robin Williams of beekeeping
sort of Mork to your Mindy

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## Bumble

> ok. If it is the case that oak trees in Kew Gardens are being treated with neonics, and I've heard many of London's other trees are also routinely injected by contracted teams,what do you think?
>  Is it true? If so, is it justified? Or what?
>  Similar question for park lawns, golf courses and all our gardens?


Sorry, but that is alarmist twaddle! From who, and in what publication, where have you 'heard' this about London's trees? 

As far as Kew and Wakehurst Place are concerned I would be astonished if they use any icides at all, let alone a systemics in Oaks which provide a habitat for the highest number of fauna in the whole ecosystem, numbering thousands of different species. I can't find much relevant information in an instant, but a page from the Telegraph gardening section "Tips from Wakehurst" 2010 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening...rst-Place.html




> Do not use insecticides, especially early in the year. They kill indiscriminately. Pests (for example, aphids) have the ability to bounce back very quickly, but many predators (such as ladybirds) only produce one or two generations per year. So you'll end up with more problems, not fewer.
> 
> Green sprays (made from garlic or mustard) may not linger in the environment. However, they still kill pests and helpful predators alike. Even washing-up water is harmful to invertebrates. Use your fingers to squish aphids and caterpillar eggs.


Wakehurst is a sister site to Kew, run by the National Trust. http://www.kew.org/visit-wakehurst/index.htm 

From 1995 http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Issue/pn27/PN27P11.htm



> The National Trust is demonstrating that amenity land can he managed without the use of any synthetic chemical pesticides.


Kew, if you didn't realise and couldn't be bothered to find out, is dedicated to conservation, is the home of the Millennium Seed Bank. It is also a world heritage site. 

Kew http://www.kew.org/about-kew/policie...licy/index.htm 


> Environmental Policy
> 
> In seeking to achieve its mission, RBG Kew believes that its operation should be undertaken with minimal adverse impact on both the local and global environment.


Perhaps you don't need to phone them?

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## gavin

Apologies for jumping to conclusions as to the identity of 'worm'.  I confused him with another user with similar online details.  JTF's ban was permanent and we'll do our best to remove him if he registers under a new name and email address.

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## drumgerry

So worm is JTF then Gavin?  If so how many times is that now he's tried to register under a different user name?

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## Trog

> "but I could not
> find one single honeybee, bumblebee or
> hoverfly in my time among the roses. This
> leads me to suspect" _I went at the wrong time of year_ 
> 
> My italics


I've never seen honeybees, bumblebees or hoverflies on HT or similar roses.  Only on dog rose or rosa rugosa.
I'm pretty sure Kew, like other tropical houses I've visited, use bioligical controls for insect pests.  I've not been to Kew but I've visited less famous places and if they can afford to use bio controls, I'm sure Kew can.  I grew a banana plant indoors once; it's an aphid magnet.  I was so tempted to use a systemic pesticide but in the end put it outside for the natural pest controllers.  It died in the greenhouse during a hard winter and I wasn't too sorry!

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## The Drone Ranger

I used to grow regal pelargoniums and they attracted whitefly like fury
Those things were resistant to all insecticides anyway so you had to sit with a tiny brush and some meths to treat their eggs on the underside of leaves

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## Jon

> you had to sit with a tiny brush and some meths to treat their eggs on the underside of leaves


That would be a fun job if you had a couple of hectares of pelargoniums.

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## Trog

Whitefly?  You just use those yellow sticky card thingies from an organic gardening catalogue.  (Though I see Lakeland are now selling something similar).  Worked a treat in my greenhouse down in England.  We don't seem to get whitefly here; maybe they just can't fly against the wind!

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