# More ... > Beekeeper education >  Mod 2 section 8 & 17

## EmsE

Rather than trying to cram everything in at the last minute, this year I thought I would make an early start, especially as module 2 includes preparing for a honey show so will help me in our LA one in November. (some tough competition  :EEK!: )

Section 8 asks for a detailed account of the preparation of section, cut comb & chunk honey for sale. I can find how to prepare it for the show, but that is covered in section 17 which leads me to think it is different?

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## Neils

Just starting to look at Module 2 as well. Don't know for certain, but there is often some overlap in the syllabus/coursework when preparing for the modules so I wouldn't necessarily assume that they're asking for different things. Looking at the high level syllabus, I think they're the same thing covered in two different sections of the coursework I guess you could argue that you might not necessarily need to go to the same lengths to prepare honey for sale compared to putting it into a show but I'd say that they're essentially the same process.

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## susbees

You two still planning on sitting Mod 2 in March?

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## Easy beesy

Would it be the actual prep for sale they're looking for?  I assume that what's needed is
Section 
type of sections 
Condition of colony 
Prep of the sections before giving to colony
Weight of sections
Packaging and compliant labelling


Cut comb
How to cut - knife, cutter
Packaging and labelling 
Draining
Weights used(ie no adding liquid)

Chunk
What type of comb to use (clean, capped)
How much to use (I know none specified but explain that, and why)
Chunk in first
Packaging and labelling 

I know I haven't covered everything but you get the idea. 
Best of luck to all doing modules or practicals. 
Eb

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## Easy beesy

For sale, compliance with regulations and hygiene would be more important - in showing, hygiene is important but most shows don't require labels so labelling regs not so important - its the subtle difference in emphasis I suppose. 
Eb

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## EmsE

> You two still planning on sitting Mod 2 in March?


I am- I've just sent my application form off so I can't back out. I've been a bit distracted from it recently so need to get back to looking at it all again.




> Would it be the actual prep for sale they're looking for?


Hi EB, it just states 'the preparation of...' Thanks you for the replies- it's helped the penny drop.

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## susbees

I know spouting the Honey Regs backwards is probably unnecessary but I need to make sense of Schedule 2, part 6 which is mashed to say the least. Is there anyone who can set out simply the HMF levels disentangled....I have a feeling there are four levels....Thanks  :Smile:

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## Easy beesy

Hi sus
This might help:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hmf.html

Eb

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## Easy beesy

Talking of mod 2 what's everyone's idea of the latest addition - the last section?
What are they getting at?

Eb

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## susbees

> Talking of mod 2 what's everyone's idea of the latest addition - the last section?
> What are they getting at?
> 
> Eb


The Dave Cushman page is well out of date - the HMF derogation was changed with the replacement of the 1976 Regs in 2003 to ok for tropical honeys at that level only. The last section is explaining that pollen "footprints" differ throughout the world and some are quite specific to an area...allowing Trading Standards to know if honey is as labelled from pollen analysis (amongst other things). Expect there's a procedure to remember too but not got that far yet...

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## Easy beesy

Many thanks for that. 
The issue regarding pollen footprints - that isn't incorporated in any regs yet though, is it?

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## susbees

Well yes it is Eb, in as much as using a Reserved Description means that it must be that sort of honey and pollen analysis is part of that process.

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## gavin

Interesting to see this foreign language you're talking.  Maybe it is time I thought about doing a few 'Mods' if you'll pardon the expression. I really got into beekeeping to get away from formal education and research, but maybe the time has come to at least think about joining in.

That wasn't a NY resolution by the way, just some thinking out loud.

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## susbees

It's becoming expected around here if you're wanting to help with BKA education. And bees are more fun than spuds, yes  :Big Grin: ?

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## gavin

Oh yes, but spuds have a certain charm too!   :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm a bit reluctant to risk deadening the fun side of apiculture with too much formality, but maybe it needs to be done.

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## Jimbo

I agree with susbees. I think that if you are going to start helping on courses etc that you should know your subject inside out but I can also see where Gavin is coming from. I thought about doing a mod last year and the year before and the year before and the year before that. I thought I might sign up for one this year. The thought might go away by Feb

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## Jon

It's horses for courses though.
Some things have to be taught formally, ie you would not want your gall bladder removed by a google educated surgeon.
Come to think of it I don't want my gall bladder removed by a properly qualified surgeon either.
A lot of other stuff can be researched in your own time if you are conscientious enough, especially if you use google scholar or some of the better bee forums naming no names!
There is a mass of honeybee research on the internet if you care to browse it.
I have to hold my hand up and admit to the same lack of bee qualifications as Gavin.
I did start a thesis on bee behaviour in 1982 as part of my psychology degree but when I came back from holidays at the end of the summer the bees in my observation hive were dead and I had to make an executive decision to switch my thesis to the humble guppy instead.
I enjoy researching things in my own time but that shouldn't be seen as a criticism of taking the modules.
The UBKA runs a series of courses at different venues geared towards the Irish FIBKA exams.
The problem is that there is not enough practical stuff and a lot of well qualified beekeepers lack basic handling skills, imho.
Beekeeping is first and foremost a hands on hobby.

Stuff like wing morphometry can be self taught once you have got the measure of the software and the limitations of sampling techniques.

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## susbees

> I thought I might sign up for one this year. The thought might go away by Feb


Go on, dare you.....and don't forget if you resist in March there's always November.....  :Smile:

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## Neils

Having pretty much always been self taught I'm enjoying working my way through the programme.

If doing exams and "homework" isn't of any appeal then don't do them. For more than a few people I know they're probably of no benefit, let alone interest, at all.

In my position and experience I really enjoy doing them and they do give some added weight being in a position of being interested in education and training/teaching the next batches of prospective beekeepers.

Funnily enough, knowing the relative differences between frame sizes (and oft quoted criticism of doing the general husbandry Module 1) has come in handy putting together the talk on Beehives for this year's course. I'd recommend Module 3 (Honey Bee Health and diseases) for any beekeeper, new or otherwise. After that I think you could more reasonably argue that they aren't for you or of limited value to you as a beekeeper.  There've been a few posts here on Braula, for example, something we just don't see much of round this neck of the woods as Thymol pretty comprehensively gets rid of it in addition to the Varroa and it scarcely warrants a mention as a result but I know about it because it's covered under Module 3.

I'm intending to do Modules 2 and 5 this year which I think should give me the intermediate theory certificate.  I will be doing the second practical assessment, but probably not until next year. That also puts me in line to become a basic assessor, something we don't have in our association which means we're reliant on the goodwill of others to get people through the Basic without being able to offer a similar service in return.

Ultimately I do want to get the NBD and with that in mind doing the Module programme is a no brainer.

I've seen a lot of people criticise the entire programme on the basis that it's the SBA/BBKA indoctrinating people into "Bees shalt be kept thus and anything else is an abomination" and that is far from my experience of it, if anything it works hard to make you examine alternatives, how you keep your bees, what alternatives are available, the up and downsides of those methods and so on.

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## susbees

> There've been a few posts here on Braula, for example, something we just don't see much of round this neck of the woods as Thymol pretty comprehensively gets rid of it in addition to the Varroa and it scarcely warrants a mention as a result but I know about it because it's covered under Module 3.


That's interesting (worrying!) as we were told the exact opposite on the General Husbandry workshop at the NHS last autumn!

Will be doing 2 certainly in March and if I don't hammer on with 7 will do 5 in November so good to know. And the General Husbandry in 2012 if I ever recover from the workshop experience.....and the only person I know who did it this year failing  :Frown:

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## Neils

Then it's probably me that's got it wrong, off to check, back soon.

[edit] Hmmm, generally "most Varroacides" tend to be lumped together as being "thought" to be effective against Braula. Though for the most part it's simply not seen as a [serious] problem. Fluvalinate (Apistan), Flumethrin (Bayvarol), coumaphos (Perizin) Formic Acid (and presumably Oxalic Acid?) are certainly listed in some countries as treatments for Braula but I can't seem to find a document anywhere at the moment that says one way or another with regards to Thymol.


[edit edit] Aha!




> Thymol and essential oils are widely used as acaricidal agents in the alternative therapy. Besides acaricidal activity, they act against the bee-louse (Braula coeca) and the tracheal mite (Acarapis woodi). Different concentrations and doses of thymol were tested independently or with various rate frequency, intervals and duration of treatment. The effectiveness established varied from 82% to 98.8% (NANETTI, 1996). The application of thymol in combination with other natural substances, such as essential oils and acids, enhanced its effect (BOGDANOV et al., 1999). The Swiss preparation Api-Life-Var that contained 75% thymol, 16.4% eucalyptol, 3.8% menthol, and 3.8% camphor manifested good acaricidal effectiveness within the range 95% to 98.6% (ABOU-ZAID et al., 1995; IMDORF et al., 1995; MOOSBECKHOFER, 1994).


IN the discussion notes for a product called Metican that I found on the Apimondia site. Most of the articles around the place simply seems to assume that most acarcides are effective at killing them but because they aren't regarded as much of a problem no-one seems to have looked too closely at what does and doesn't.

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## EmsE

I don't think of the modules as homework (except frame sizes) or as part of formal studying as it is on topics I would be researching anyway, but use them as a means to keep me focused on a particular topic to a reasonable depth. By sitting the exam lets me gauge my understanding. Before I found I was trying to look into too many different things and wasn't really consolidating as much as I could. 
I also have a dream of being a honey judge when I grow up (in bee keeping terms that is) so certain modules are a must. The remaining modules all touch on things that I'm dying to know about so will be sitting those too one day.

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## Neils

Just a slightly unrelated note on the Braula front. Tobacco in the smoker is apparently effective at getting rid of it and I'm sure I remember someone mentioning that at one point they were recommended to use Golden Virginia as a varroa treatment.

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## Neils

> I don't think of the modules as homework (except frame sizes) or as part of formal studying as it is on topics I would be researching anyway, but use them as a means to keep me focused on a particular topic to a reasonable depth. By sitting the exam lets me gauge my understanding. Before I found I was trying to look into too many different things and wasn't really consolidating as much as I could. 
> I also have a dream of being a honey judge when I grow up (in bee keeping terms that is) so certain modules are a must. The remaining modules all touch on things that I'm dying to know about so will be sitting those too one day.


Couldn't agree with you more (except the bit about being a Honey Judge  :Big Grin: , good luck to you on that front, but it's not for me.)

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## EmsE

> The Dave Cushman page is well out of date - the HMF derogation was changed with the replacement of the 1976 Regs in 2003 to ok for tropical honeys at that level only. The last section is explaining that pollen "footprints" differ throughout the world and some are quite specific to an area...allowing Trading Standards to know if honey is as labelled from pollen analysis (amongst other things). Expect there's a procedure to remember too but not got that far yet...


It could also be something to bear in mind if claiming the honey is derived from nectar of particular plants too.

One thing I'm trying to find out (but may not be relevant) is that whilst the regulations state that the diastase activity should be not less than 4 (or 3 if the honey has a naturally low enzyme content) as this would indicate that the honey has been over heated, does the lower diastase activity on it's own have a negative impact on the honey? Or is it just a way of ensuring the honey hasn't been over processed.

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## susbees

Yikes...brain says 8&3 for diastase...can't check on phone thing or it will probably  catapult me to alpha venturi or beyond. Later...

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

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## EmsE

I need to learn how to do this on my phone!

I got the 4 & 3 from Yates, but it is an old copy. I've just checked Celia Davis & she does say 8. 

I haven't looked at section 1 yet on the regulations - keeping that until I feel I can face it as it appears soooo dry. It was under one of the other sections it came up so I may need to go back and adjust a few things then once I've looked at the updated legislation.

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## susbees

I've spent three days off and on trying to straighten out the regs. Some of the county council advice for honey packer-type sheets are out-of-date which is daft. Where I'm still stuck is the bit which says you can't re-use jars now. To be honest after that little lot, a page on types of honey knives was FUN!

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## EmsE

The link below is for the BBKA forum where they discussed the issue of re-using honey jars with a link to European law part way down the thread.

http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?c=2&f=7&t=5212

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## EmsE

In section 2.19, you need to give a detailed account of the information that clover, field geranium, forget-me-not and the horse chestnut communicate to the honey bee. 
As they're listed separately I'm assuming that there are significant differences for each one? I have only been able to find some information on the horse chestnut, but not what I'd consider to be 'detailed'. Does anyone have any recommendations on where to look for more info on this?

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## Calum

> The link below is for the BBKA forum where they discussed the issue of re-using honey jars with a link to European law part way down the thread.
> 
> http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?c=2&f=7&t=5212


That cant be right. Here in Germany the glasses just became pfand glasses which means they have to have a deposit on them. Which means we must be able to reuse them, as noone is buying them back of us- or at least there has been no instruction that we cant. Of course I sterilise mine and do a visual check that they are ok, weither new or returns (had more bad glasses new than returned strangely).

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## susbees

Back shortly on this one...swap you a raincheck on EFN in plum compared with cherry. Be helpful if they said which plum and which cherry as both prunus and cherry plum exists too.

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## susbees

> That cant be right. Here in Germany the glasses just became pfand glasses which means they have to have a deposit on them. Which means we must be able to reuse them, as noone is buying them back of us- or at least there has been no instruction that we cant. Of course I sterilise mine and do a visual check that they are ok, weither new or returns (had more bad glasses new than returned strangely).


Supposedly something deep in the packaging regs on reuse of plastics, glass etc. I still haven't the original legislation details. Calum, are the packs of jars labelled as reuseable?

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## EmsE

> Back shortly on this one...swap you a raincheck on EFN in plum compared with cherry. Be helpful if they said which plum and which cherry as both prunus and cherry plum exists too.


 I spent a few evenings trying to find something about the plum EFN's too. There was only 1 picture I could find and that was on a gardening forum where someone was worried about the red lumps on his plum tree that the ants were eating. http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB...ic.php?t=36010]They looked to be in the same place as the cherry. Yates covered the broad bean, cherry laurel, cherry and then bracken, but no plum? All the reference I've found seem to group the cherry and the plum together, but only show pictures of the cherry tree. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Unfortunately we can't check the plum trees before the exam to see for ourselves.

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## gavin

> I spent a few evenings trying to find something about the plum EFN's too. There was only 1 picture I could find and that was on a gardening forum where someone was worried about the red lumps on his plum tree that the ants were eating. http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB...ic.php?t=36010]They looked to be in the same place as the cherry. Yates covered the broad bean, cherry laurel, cherry and then bracken, but no plum? All the reference I've found seem to group the cherry and the plum together, but only show pictures of the cherry tree.
> 
> Unfortunately we can't check the plum trees before the exam to see for ourselves.


If you put 'prunus extrafloral nectaries' into Google Images you'll see them on petioles (red glands) and near the leaf midrib in a variety of Prunus species.  I'm not sure whether there is a consistent difference between cherries and plums.  

In bird cherry the plant responds to herbovore-like injury by increasing the production of them - cool, innit?!

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...440.x/abstract

G.

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## gavin

PS  Was particularly proud of these pictures last year.  Field bean.

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## Calum

> Supposedly something deep in the packaging regs on reuse of plastics, glass etc. I still haven't the original legislation details. Calum, are the packs of jars labelled as reuseable?


Hi Susbees, 
no the jars are not, but the standardised labels are for german honey, and bavarian honey have returnable glass (for money) printed on them (its now the law here since last year).

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## EmsE

> PS  Was particularly proud of these pictures last year.  Field bean.]


understandably so! How do you manage to be in the right place at the right time?

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## gavin

Well, I have an old interest in field bean professionally, dormant for many years.  Then folk realised that we are heading for a protein crisis, and two of the main salmon feed manufacturers thought of using protein from bean flour to supplement salmon rations.  That has the potential to make the UK more self-sufficient, add nitrogen to the soil for subsequent crops, and displace soy imports.  All good things.

Last summer we grew some bean lines from our seed store.  The bumble bees were from a commercial colony used to pollinate one particularly interesting bean line in a polythene tunnel, and the ants just found them by themselves.  Now we have a grant and are getting going properly ...

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## susbees

> I'm not sure whether there is a consistent difference between cherries and plums.  
> 
> 
> G.


Yes, but you'd expect there to be some recordable difference to put both separately in the one question?


(Thanks Calum)

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## gavin

Yes you would.  The word cherry applies a few different species of Prunus and plums themselves are variable so a consistent difference might be hard to define - but it looks like someone has tried.

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