# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Queen rearing pics

## drumgerry

I wonder if people would be interested in uploading photos of all things queen rearing.  Who knows - it might spark an interesting discussion!

I'll get the ball rolling with a couple of photos taken today of my apideas and a couple of kielers in situ.  I just opened them up this morning having given them a QC each yesterday (due to hatch today/tonight)

QR1.jpgQR2.jpgQR3.jpg

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## Jon

brother-moo-willy-B-grafting-small.jpg willy-b-valentine-moo-grafting-small-195x300.jpg

Grafting session last Monday

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## drumgerry

Great stuff Jon!

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## Jon

apidea-mesh3.jpg apidea-mesh1.jpg apidea-mesh2.jpg apidea-mesh4.jpg

System for uniting two apideas.
The queenright one is on the bottom and the entrance hole in the mesh is blocked with fondant.
The top one is an apidea super.
The colony scent mingles through the mesh and the bees unite slowly via the food compartment in the bottom apidea.
The queen can't get into the food compartment so no chance of being suddenly overwhelmed by an influx of strange bees.

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## drumgerry

Looks like it might be worth investing in a few of the apidea supers and a few of the feeders in my quest for the holy grail of having a few queens available in Spring.  I've got loads of stainless mesh so could easily make half a dozen of those screens and have a few stacks of apideas three high.  How to work out the quantities of varroa treatments to give though....?

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## Jon

I made a load of floors from an 8 foot by 4 sheet of mesh and the off cuts were useful for wee jobs with apideas.
I prefer cutting my own excluders as well as the bees have about 20 slots to enter rather than just 3.

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## fatshark

Now you see them ...
ImageUploadedByTapatalk 21371397105.617897.jpg

Now you don't ... 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk 21371397134.740867.jpg

Kielers out at the mating apiary this afternoon ... well hidden from full sun. 

Working on the other hives the sound of drones cruising around was deafening.

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## drumgerry

Liking those stands Fatshark!  Shame I have rubble just below the soil or I'd do something similar.

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## fatshark

Thanks Drumgerry ... built out of desperation as I've run out of hive stands this year! One piece of 2x2 from a For Sale sign (already used the Correx) hurriedly cut into three, made pointy and a platform crudely nailed on. They're in a very sheltered spot or would also need a strap to hold them all together.

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## fatshark

Just got these off the camera ... eight out of ten and a Ben Harden fat dummy with an integral feeder, followed by my (t)rusty hive barrow on the way back from the apiary from grafting.

8of10.jpgbuster.jpg

Don't worry ... there's nothing in the nucs  :Wink:

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## brothermoo

Last night in Belfast we requeened 2 colonies with lovely Amm queens and had a look to see how may grafts had been started in the cell raising colony.....
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## Jon

Fingers crosses re. introduction. I was over earlier today to open the plastic tabs on the cages.
probably out by now as the fondant was pretty soft.

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## beejazz

Here's my first effort at grafting, but forgot to put in the q exc.  I  have taken out the comb in the feeder and put in two more frames. P1000653.jpg

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## Jon

Yep that apidea is pretty full and liable to abscond. the two extra frames should help.

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## The Drone Ranger

IMGP0651.jpg

I'm hopless with camera and the bees are in the way of the queen cells

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## Jon

Will the roller cages fit in that cell bar? I doubt it. I attach the top row of base cups directly on to the underside of the top bar and the batten in the middle has to be thin and I take the bottom bars off as well.
Good to see everyone getting a few cells started.
I nearly had a disaster today.
I have a cell raiser colony with 25 cells in the top box and I remembered I had not checked the comb for cells since I set it up 12 days ago. I found a couple and when I was removing one a virgin popped out but I managed to catch her.
I was just an hour or two away from having all the cells torn down.

PS. Is that blue sky really in Scotland or have you been fooling us re. your location somewhere more tropical.

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## The Drone Ranger

No Jon roller cages wont fit 
Those are JZ/BZ cups they just push into a slot in the bar 
You can just see the two empty ones on the left (they are green)
Sunday should be the day to move them 
Forecast pouring rain  :Smile: 

Sun shining today but weather gradually deteriorating to weekend
We have had a few good sunny days

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## drumgerry

I confess I'm not a roller-cage type of guy as well DR.  I'm more of a remember-to-move-them-to an Apidea-before-they-hatch-guy.  Yes Jon, I'm looking at you.  Extra homework for you tonight my boy!

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## Jon

> Last night in Belfast we requeened 2 colonies with lovely Amm queens and had a look to see how may grafts had been started in the cell raising colony.....
> __________________
> sent via tapatalk


I checked this one earlier and she is out and on the comb.
I was removing the cage and she was walking around happily near the top of the frame.
She is probably laying already which means that in theory I could graft from her on Saturday or Sunday.

Another one I introduced to a nuc at my allotment is out as well.
Be interesting to see how many are accepted out of the batch.

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## beejazz

> Yep that apidea is pretty full and liable to abscond. the two extra frames should help.


I get the importance of putting in the Q exc now!  Maybe because the feeder is at the back of the apidea, so warmer, that the bees like to make their comb in there.  My other 2 apideas have some comb in the feeders, even though the Q exc is on.  At least the Q won't lay in it.  I also find they cover the Q exc in wax blocking off the holes except for one or two.

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## Jon

If they are having difficulty getting in through only 3 slots you can cut up a plastic excluder to make these to pin to the front.

apidea-mesh4.jpg drones-behind-apidea-excluder.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry 

thought you might be interested in these about bee breeding 

of the 5 links check out the 4th one its about how to line breed with less risk in inbreeding

http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...imal-breeding/
http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...and-variation/
http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...-bee-breeding/
http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...d-hybrid-bees/
http://www.beesource.com/resources/u...hybrid-queens/

Heres a little snip
_There is some evidence that gentleness in bees is dominant over viciousness. In one of our experiments the hybrids of a cross between a vicious and a gentle line were gentle rather than vicious._

I don't like getting bogged down in this stuff but I think this helps by clearly explaining the issues involved
Stung in the butt yesterday 3 times by badly bred invaders to my realm  :Smile:

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## Jon

DR.
Those articles are from the ABJ in 1951.
A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then.

The Ruttner stuff on hybrization, which I rate,  dates from the 70s and 80s.

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## The Drone Ranger

You don't agree with their breeding suggestions then Jon ?
I'm not a worrier on that score myself because I mostly just Snelgrove
Every hive raises a queen or three
Any hive that has blotted its copy book gets one of the spare cells
Graft a few and cell punch a few for backup

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## Jon

Most of what I read seemed sound enough even though it is dated.
It was your quotation about gentle being dominant over vicious made me raise an eyebrow.
Many honey bee traits seem to be polygenic and a claim about something complicated like aggression, from the 1950s, is likely to be fairly dubious.
Ruttner claimed the opposite and he measured the increase in aggression between crosses and the reciprocal crosses between various bee races.
Crossing a queen from one race with drones from another does not produce the same results the other way round, ie the queen from the other race crossed with drones from the first one.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon
Brother Adam says the same about reciprocal crossing giving different outcomes
Good behaviour is fairly easy to get though if you have a few hives
I wouldn't want to have one hive and lose my queen then find her replacement bad tempered, because if I removed her the next one would meet the same local drone pool and be bad as well probably 
That's why I can understand people buying a queen to fix that problem

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## Jon

> I confess I'm not a roller-cage type of guy as well DR.  I'm more of a remember-to-move-them-to an Apidea-before-they-hatch-guy.  Yes Jon, I'm looking at you.  Extra homework for you tonight my boy!


Thing is, I like to put the cells in the apideas just before the queens come out.
If you put them in say 3 days before emergence some get chilled and fail to emerge.
In an ideal world the queens have less than 24 hours to go before emergence when they go into the apideas so the rollers are essential.
When I put the rollers on the cells 3 days before emergence I also include a couple of workers on the inside so that an early emerging virgin queen has company. They are not always fed from the outside of the roller but seem to be ok if there are a couple of workers inside.
If you use roller cages you can introduce cells at the last minute and the odd virgin which emerges early in a roller gets put in an apidea with a scoop of wet bees on top.

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=Jon;19330...................................  ..................................................  ...............................emergence I also include a couple of workers on the inside so that an early emerging virgin queen has company. They are not always fed from the outside of the roller but seem to be ok if there are a couple of workers inside.
..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ...........................[/QUOTE]



A little honey; not difficult to obtain if one knows someone who keeps bees, placed in the recess in the cage floor has been known to assuage the initial royal thirst.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thing is, I like to put the cells in the apideas just before the queens come out.
> If you put them in say 3 days before emergence some get chilled and fail to emerge.
> In an ideal world the queens have less than 24 hours to go before emergence when they go into the apideas so the rollers are essential.


In an Ideal world I wouldn't be staring at a forecast for bucketing rain Saturday and Sunday Lol!
I'll bear it in mind for next time though

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## Jon

I know, but it works far better if you put a couple of workers in as well. They can groom the queen and feed her. When a queen is on her own if she gets sticky from honey or fondant she can't clean herself.

There is usually a bit of food left over inside the queen cell but she will go back in there after the food and die in the cell with her head in it.

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## Jon

> In an Ideal world I wouldn't be staring at a forecast for bucketing rain Saturday and Sunday Lol!
> I'll bear it in mind for next time though


Mr roller is your friend when the weather is grim and you can't get out to the cell raiser colony!

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## The Drone Ranger

> A little honey; not difficult to obtain if one knows someone who keeps bees, placed in the recess in the cage floor has been known to assuage the initial royal thirst.


they are quite capable of feeding themselves the lazy cows
When I've used a push in cage to introduce mated queens I push it in where it breaks into some honey and the queen who has no attendants usually goes straight over and helps herself to a a good nosh

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## The Drone Ranger

> Mr roller is your friend when the weather is grim and you can't get out to the cell raiser colony!


Or on a bad hair day
What's happening with the queen suicides are they nuts??

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## mbc

> I know, but it works far better if you put a couple of workers in as well. They can groom the queen and feed her. When a queen is on her own if she gets sticky from honey or fondant she can't clean herself.
> 
> There is usually a bit of food left over inside the queen cell but she will go back in there after the food and die in the cell with her head in it.


A useful tip, thanks Jon.
I recently lost four virgins who hatched into empty cells over the weekend when I couldnt get to them, and I have kicked myself about it since, elementary mistake !. 
Next time I will certainly put in a few workers and some honey if I know theres a chance I wont be able to get to them for a while.  Letting the cells hatch in the nucs is certainly easier.
How do people who let them emerge in incubators go about it ?

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## Jon

> How do people who let them emerge in incubators go about it ?


The ones I know check them pretty often. Another tip I was given is to remove the cell, nip it, and replace it so the queen cannot get back inside. they do go back in there and die sometimes.

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## The Drone Ranger

Well in my usual ignorance when I have harvested queens from ripe cells 
I just help the Q/C cap to open with a sharp knife and capture the virgin in a queen introduction cage
The introduction cage will be sealed by candy but a couple of drops of liquid honey on the mesh of the cage is needed
Also a drop or two of water during the day 
Then that night spray the lady with a very thin sugar solution 
Open the entrance of the keiler help her in the door 
Rubbish method but I've got away with it many times 

Now I will be following the better methods everyone has described here  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

*Snelgrove boards --the easy way to get new queens*

What is the margarine lid I hear you say
IMGP0656.jpg
It helps the young queen find the entrance on her mating flights


When you split the colony over a snelgrove board feed the bees in the top
They don't have flying bees and they are raising queen cells
IMGP0652.jpg

You can raise queen cells above the board
IMGP0651.jpg

If the Queen below the board is not great knock off the queen cells from her brood and use your choice

IMGP0664.jpg

Best bit you still get a good chance of honey
whats not to like  :Smile:

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## fatshark

Kieler frame feeders. Much better for fondant than the one supplied with the nuc. Bees are less likely to build comb in them and they fit in the - shallower - upper story for overwintering. 

ImageUploadedByTapatalk 21372008607.952138.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Fatshark you should have a business manufacturing all these specialist queen rearing improvements  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

I was lucky enough to attend a queen rearing demonstration at our secretarys apiary today. Alex a visiting New Zealand beekeeper was kind enough to provide the equipment and then show us how to do the grafting. The frame with cups was introduced to the hive 24 hours before the grafting took place. Photos 2 and 3 show Alex doing the grafting and he expertly filled all the cups in just a few minutes. After that we all tried out the grafting tool and to be honest I think Ill leave the grafting to the others in our group. Next weekend he will check how many cups were successful before we make up nucs ready for queen cells to be introduced in 9 days time. Alex will be here to give us a hand with that as well. As this is the first time for our group there will be no messing around with mini nucs this year. Ill keep you posted.

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## Jon

What brand of equipment is he using for cell cups? Don't recognise it.

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## lindsay s

Hi Jon it's NZ equipment and the cups twist off and are reusable and he's leaving us plenty to play with for next year. Alex raises about 500 queens each year for his own operation.

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## beejazz

36 grafts!  Is it possible for one colony to raise that many queen cells?

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Beejazz 

I have often read about PQN which I think is Peak Queen Number this is an idea probably started by Richard Smailles (spelling ??) certainly Milner and Dews etc and other BIBBA publications.
All I can say is that above a Snelgrove board a hive which raised only 1 or 2 queen cells (although they had plenty material to raise many more) I placed a frame of 16 grafts and they made 14 good Queen Cells just a few weeks ago

In the past I always thought I needed a queenless cell raising colony
The chaps on here have convinced me that a queen right cell raiser is better
In normal circumstances I would have thought about 10 grafts and expect 5 - 8 Queen cells which is plenty 
The breeding groups that Jimbo, Jon, Drumgerry and Gavin are involved with need to maximise queen production and will know more

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## gavin

> The breeding groups that Jimbo, Jon, Drumgerry and Gavin are involved with need to maximise queen production and will know more


Definitely still wearing L plates, reinforced by the failure of my first grafts this year.  OK, I was taking a chance by not feeding the cell raiser at a time when forage was not as good as it had been.

A question.  Was the larva in Lindsay's picture a typical size?  I always try to go for one much smaller than that.

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## fatshark

Looked a bit on the chunky side to me as well. However it might be a particularly small grafting tool! 
I tend to graft 10-12 at a time and expect 70%+ take (and discard them if its less than this). This number is largely determined by the number of mini-nucs I can comfortably handle on my own, rather than the capacity if the cell raiser. For association grafting days we do 50 in a swarm box and expect the majority to be drawn out. 

When do people cage their cells? Freshly capped ones just about fit but much later and burr comb makes it an impossible task. I've tended not to cage unless I have to.

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## The Drone Ranger

Apologies for omitting you from my list of breeding groups Fatshark 
I knew you have lots of experience but didn't realise you were so heavily involved with queen rearing at your association
Some bees seem inclined to add extra comb to cells but others just leave a nice long peanut shape no extra wax --don't know why

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## fatshark

No worries at all ... hardly heavily involved, more like just getting started. We very much followed the Galtee system. Our success rate is, er, mixed. Good numbers of cells, but disappointing numbers of mated queens. We know the losses at the intermediate stages and will try to address them with more tuition in the future. Of course, the weather last year didn't help!

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## brothermoo

Found little booklet in my local library here in Belfast that described the Wilkinson Brown method fairly close, its origins may interest you.

 
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## Jon

> 36 grafts!  Is it possible for one colony to raise that many queen cells?


It depends upon colony strength. 36 would be pushing it with my bees which tend to have smaller colonies but if you have a more prolific race, 36 should be no problem.
Bear in mind as well you only have to get them started and can move as many as you like to another finisher colony 24 hours later.
I have never noticed and problem with moving cells between cell raiser colonies whether open or closed cells.
Sometimes you get a colony which wont start cells but will happily finish them if you give then cells at the 24 hour stage.




> Was the larva in Lindsay's picture a typical size? I always try to go for one much smaller than that.


Just a tad bigger than I like but I think you could get a decent queen from that if the larva is properly fed.




> The chaps on here have convinced me that a queen right cell raiser is better


I have a queenless cell raiser on the go at the moment as well as the queenright ones.
It's great for starting cells but is a nightmare to handle as the bees are really crabbit.
The queenright ones are completely docile.

The queenright system is much more stable and hardly disrupts honey production as you keep the supers on.

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## Jon

> Found little booklet in my local library here in Belfast that described the Wilkinson Brown method fairly close, its origins may interest you.
> 
> __________________
> sent via tapatalk


You coming to the meeting tonight? Wouldn't mind a wee look at that.
1944. Could have been one of Eric McArthur's earlier works!

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## ebee

> I made a load of floors from an 8 foot by 4 sheet of mesh and the off cuts were useful for wee jobs with apideas.
> I prefer cutting my own excluders as well as the bees have about 20 slots to enter rather than just 3.


Hi Jon, enjoyed reading your method of uniting two Apideas could you tell me where you got the 8x4 sheet of mesh.

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## Dark Bee

> Hi Jon, enjoyed reading your method of uniting two Apideas could you tell me where you got the 8x4 sheet of mesh.


I do not know where Jon shops, but the reference to an 8x4 sheet suggests that it is a sheet of expanded metal as mesh usually comes in a roll and of course it is possible to have a piece measuring 8x4.
What you need to be aware of is mesh comes in different qualities; some is mild steel coated with epoxy, some is galvanised after weaving and then coated, some is woven from galvanised wire before coating and some is made from stainless steel. The latter is by far the best and has decreased in cost in recent years, go for it if you can.

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## Jon

> Hi Jon, enjoyed reading your method of uniting two Apideas could you tell me where you got the 8x4 sheet of mesh.


My supplier is down near Belfast Docks so likely of little use.
There is one in Ingerland everyone seems to use 
I think this is it.

http://www.bjwiremesh.com/Crimpedwiremesh.html

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## drumgerry

Just bought 4 sheets of galvanised mesh from the ebay seller below.  I prefer this stuff as it doesn't unravel at the edges like the woven stuff.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1409477675...84.m1439.l2649

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## Dark Bee

> Just bought 4 sheets of galvanised mesh from the ebay seller below.  I prefer this stuff as it doesn't unravel at the edges like the woven stuff.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1409477675...84.m1439.l2649


That is expanded metal DG. It does the job, but there is not as much "open space" as there is with mesh. 
I once covered ventilation openings in a box with expanded metal and found several  bees had stuck their heads through and died.

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## Mellifera Crofter

... or this one: http://www.jtwirecloth.com/prod06.htm

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> ... or this one: http://www.jtwirecloth.com/prod06.htm
> 
> Kitta


Hi Kitta I use the same supplier
The black epoxy coated is easy to cut with scissors
By putting the varroa floor over a standard solid one
I put the varrox vapouriser between the two for oxalic
The mesh helps spread the vapour entering the hive 
Being coated it doesn't steal the heat from the vapour in the cold weather

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## keith pierce

Took these out of the cell raiser last night. I got 27 cell from 40 grafts


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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## The Drone Ranger

Good cells as well Drumgerry
Was the queen raiser the Ben Harden system ??

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## Jon

Very nice looking cells Keith. Have you any mated queens yet? I found one laying in an apidea on Sunday.
You missed a good day in Cavan on Saturday.
Hope you got that child properly wetted at the christening.

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## Dark Bee

> Hi Kitta I use the same supplier..........................
> ..................................................  ..................................................  ..........
> 
> the vapour entering the hive 
> Being coated it doesn't steal the heat from the vapour in the cold weather


The point I was making above is that some of the epoxy coated stuff does not have galvanising underneath. A few of us once imported a large quantity from the US, it was remarkably cheap. A little later we discovered why  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . There was only bare mild steel underneath the epoxy and the stuff was rusty in a few weeks. Caveat Emptor.

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## Jon

The stuff I have is ok.
The 8 by 4 sheet cost about £15.
The apidea mesh is only made from leftover scraps but I also made several mesh floors for nationals and about 15 for my nucs.
No sign of any rusting and have been in use for a year now.

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## madasafish

I bought a roll of gavlanised wirecloth for varroa boards in 2010 from JT Wirecloth 01295 272115

www.jtwirecloth.com


Still going strong: no rust..

Highly recommended.. (No relationship except as satisfied customer)

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## keith pierce

> Very nice looking cells Keith. Have you any mated queens yet? I found one laying in an apidea on Sunday.
> You missed a good day in Cavan on Saturday.
> Hope you got that child properly wetted at the christening.


Yes. the first 10 came into lay this week. Most will be used  to replace queens that just did not perform properly after the winter and the surplus will be used it start producing nucs for overwintering. 
Sorry I missed out on Cavan, but family duty called for my grandsons christening. I am hoping he is my supersedure and will be taking over my empire.



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## Jon

Chip off the old block.
That bee looks a bit yellow though!

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## Blackcavebees

> Chip off the old block.
> That bee looks a bit yellow though!


I though it looked like a buckfast Keith!

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## keith pierce

> I bought a roll of gavlanised wirecloth for varroa boards in 2010 from JT Wirecloth 01295 272115
> 
> www.jtwirecloth.com
> 
> 
> Still going strong: no rust..
> 
> Highly recommended.. (No relationship except as satisfied customer)


If you goggle flattened galvanised mesh, you will come across the same type that Jon uses. it is a lot stronger and can take a good scraping and a blow torching

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## madasafish

I neither scrape nor blow torch - at least not so far...

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## Dark Bee

> I bought a roll of gavlanised wirecloth for varroa boards in 2010 from JT Wirecloth 01295 272115
> 
> www.jtwirecloth.com
> 
> 
> Still going strong: no rust..
> 
> Highly recommended.. (No relationship except as satisfied customer)


That is the firm whose details I was trying to recall, I knew they were based in Oxfordshire. Some friends in England have spoken very well of them. About 2002/3,  if I am not mistaken they were at Stoneleigh, it was the first time I saw stainless steel mesh for sale.

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## The Drone Ranger

> That is the firm whose details I was trying to recall, I knew they were based in Oxfordshire. Some friends in England have spoken very well of them. About 2002/3,  if I am not mistaken they were at Stoneleigh, it was the first time I saw stainless steel mesh for sale.


They will cut mesh to any size for you I had some cut to 7" square for my Snelgrove boards
I used a mesh fine enough to stop varroa walking down to the bottom box
They will still get there but no point making it easy  :Smile:

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## keith pierce

> Chip off the old block.
> That bee looks a bit yellow though!


Yes it does look a bit yellow, but have a look at what is in the cage in front of his nose. A big fat jet black apis mellifera mellifera virgin to replace it.

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## Jon

> Yes it does look a bit yellow, but have a look at what is in the cage in front of his nose. A big fat jet black apis mellifera mellifera virgin to replace it.


Just right!

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## fatshark

No pics as my cellphone focus control was appalling ... I went to cage some cells this evening. All 8 fitted the push on cages perfectly ... no squeezing, no trimming of wax, all beautifully sculptured. In contrast, the last lot of the cells in the same colony were fused together with brace comb. I didn't even bother trying to cage them then, but spent a long time cutting them down so they'd fit between the bars in the Kieler. I'm not aware of a reason for the difference in behaviour ... there's been a reasonable flow on and the supers are filling well. Other colonies are drawing out foundation well. It's good when things actually go as planned ;-)

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Fatshark
Same bees different outcome it's a strange old business sometimes  :Smile:

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## Black Comb

I placed a cell between top bars on Saturday, hanging with a full cocktail stick.
Today they evicted the stick.

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## Black Comb

Hopkins board.
They made quite a lot but then chewed most down .
This is someone else's work. When I did it lat year I had no feeder over the top, just a lot of insulation to keep them warm.
I had more cells.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Black Comb

I am going to have a go at the Alley method (said the same two years ago on here )

I might attempt a version of the Hopkins method as well 
Do you think making a 6" square cut out of the brood comb and fitting this into a plywood holder/ box would work ?

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## Dark Bee

> Hi Black Comb
> 
> I am going to have a go at the Alley method (said the same two years ago on here )
> 
> I might attempt a version of the Hopkins method as well 
> Do you think making a 6" square cut out of the brood comb and fitting this into a plywood holder/ box would work ?


I shall have a go myself in two years time - just giving notice now! I shall have plenty of time to pray for inspiration, divine or otherwise - any will be accepted. Cutting a 6"x 6" piece is interesting, I know nothing about the method so cannot comment on the likelihood of success. But don't you think the bees might notice the hole?
I wonder if Dark Comb might be induced to give some details on the Hopkins frame? Have you noticed it is at right angles to the brood frames, that will make no difference to the queen cells but will allow equal access for all the bees who wish to display their cell building skills.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Dark Bee

Very amusing  :Smile: 
The Hopkins method of supporting a horizontal brood frame above the bees was outlined by Black Comb 
The cells now vertical induce queen cell building
Also the flour method of thinning out larva without damage to the comb 

Alley method, as you know, involves cutting a strip of comb containing very young larva and fixing this strip with the cells vertically in a cell raising frame
Alley interestingly used a small comb of about 5" square to allow the breeder queen to lay in
This was then cut into strips 

In the Hopkins method you need an eke or spacer to allow room for the frame then a method of supporting it then a plan to insulate the brood nest and the frame itself 
What I had in mind was make a cut about 6" square out of a crown board centre
Make a plywood 3 sided box to fit the hole with sufficient depth for queen cells
From the cell donor hive cut out a section of eggs and larva to fit this box
Secure the comb inside the box and fit to crown board
still room for feeder ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> Also the flour method of thinning out larva without damage to the comb  ...


What is the flour method, DR?  Do you sprinkle flour in the unwanted cells?
Kitta

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> What is the flour method, DR?  Do you sprinkle flour in the unwanted cells?
> Kitta


Hi Kitta I only found out from black comb on this thread 
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...hopkins+method
seems interesting but I haven't tried it myself

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## Dark Bee

> Hi Dark Bee
> 
> ..................................................  ..................................................
> In the Hopkins method you need an eke or spacer to allow room for the frame then a method of supporting it then a plan to insulate the brood nest and the frame itself 
> What I had in mind was make a cut about 6" square out of a crown board centre
> Make a plywood 3 sided box to fit the hole with sufficient depth for queen cells
> From the cell donor hive cut out a section of eggs and larva to fit this box
> Secure the comb inside the box and fit to crown board
> still room for feeder ?


Sounds plausible and the only way to evaluate the method is to try it. There is a nagging thought that perhaps more conventional methods may be easier or almost so.
Perhaps Black Comb can be induced to give details of his nifty Hopkins frame - it has caught my eye.

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## The Drone Ranger

You are right Dark bee a bit of grafting suits most folk better
I have a friend who can see the right larva with a good magnifier but would struggle to lift one and place it in a cell cup
I just like messing around myself  :Smile: 
What I didn't realise about the Alley method was he put his breeder queens in small hives on 5" frames with drawn comb cut from presumably a super
The queen lays this up very quickly and when the eggs hatch the little comb is sliced and fitted to a cell bar
Alternate larva/cells squished leaving the rest for the bees to decide about
That sounds like it could be modified to work with Keilers which are a little bigger than apideas

----------


## Jon

Keilers are about twice the size and half as well thought out in terms of design.

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## mbc

> Keilers are about twice the size and half as well thought out in terms of design.


A kieler has a little more capacity which gives a greater buffer than the apidea before the nuc needs attention.  If the "stackability" of the apideas is the well thought out bit of design you're so impressed with then you should have a look at the mini plus mating hives because they really open up rthe potential for overwintering queens in mini nucs.

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## Jon

Keilers use too many bees compared to an apidea. They don't come with an entrance slot for a cell as standard. The bees tend to chew extra escape holes underneath. The poly looks to be lower quality. When moving them there are always bees adhering underneath.

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## The Drone Ranger

I'm thinking of the Alley queen rearing method here
If you wanted to slot in a bit of drawn comb for a queen to lay up
Then its a little more roomy in the Keiler for that job
The Apidea is better in most respects including the polystyrene
I have to find some use for the keilers they are covered in cobwebs  :Smile:

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## fatshark

I'm not going to join this conversation ... I use Kielers but am currently testing my own design of mini-nuc and and about to buy a couple of Apideas to see what all the fuss is about. I have regularly overwintered queens in Kielers, including last winter.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Fatshark 
I think a lot has to do with what you are used to using
I don't usually make much use of mini nucs 
I never trouble myself with much grafting or fiddling normally
I'm making an exception so I can get a few queens from a couple of favourite hives
The whole process is a bit of a pain frankly but we have to suffer for our art (apparently)
Nobody else on here bothers with Snelgrove boards and probably think I'm nuts but I'm happy using them  :Smile: 
Stick with what you know works I say

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## fatshark

Hi DR ... you're absolutely right, a small number of mini-nucs is a pain. I do 6 and above at a time and keep them going through the season with a succession of cells/queens (that way the beastly job of filling them only needs to be done once). I'll have 8-10 out tomorrow.
If I was only after a couple of queens I'd use a Snelgrove or Horsley board or similar.

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## mbc

> Keilers use too many bees compared to an apidea. They don't come with an entrance slot for a cell as standard. The bees tend to chew extra escape holes underneath. The poly looks to be lower quality. When moving them there are always bees adhering underneath.


I'll agree that its annoying when products need additions to their off the shelf  state to make them more user friendly, but for the time it takes to cut a bit of plastic sheet for a crown board( with a slot for cells if you wish)and put a quick smear of car body filler round the entrance, the kieler comes in at about a third of the price of an apidea.  I tend to get about the same strike rate of harvestable mated queens from either and the difference in bee numbers needed to stock them is marginal, so all in all, if finances are a limiting factor, its possible to get three times as many queens mated for the same dosh with the kielers, more bang for your buck as our american friends would say.

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## Dark Bee

> A kieler has a little more capacity which gives a greater buffer than the apidea before the nuc needs attention.  If the "stackability" of the apideas is the well thought out bit of design you're so impressed with then you should have a look at the mini plus mating hives because they really open up rthe potential for overwintering queens in mini nucs.


I'm wondering how much experience you have of using apideas? Everyone must of course be free to use whatever mini nuc he/she chooses. But having used various other types, Kielers/Warnholtz/Swibines as well as Apideas, there is no doubt in my mind that the latter outperforms the others in every quantifiable aspect. They have a wonderful sense of being solid and secure and can be moved without roofs falling off and top bars rattling about - something that is inevitable with other makes. 
It is most unlikely that commercial queen breeders would use Apideas, if other less expensive types performed just as well. They are also durable as the polystyrene is denser than in other boxes.

----------


## Jon

> the kieler comes in at about a third of the price of an apidea.


Only if you buy the Apidea at Thorne for £33 and no-one in their right mind would do that. You can get them elsewhere for around £20-£22.
I believe DR bought 10 for around £200 recently.
What is the cheapest price you can get a Keiler. I would have thought £12-£14.
The difference is not that great and with Apideas I think you get what you pay for in terms of design and build quality.

----------


## Jon

> Kielers/Warnholtz/Swibines


They all work. I even have two swibines which sit on the shelf until I am totally out of all other options for putting cells into. They don't even have a removable feeder and the thick wooden top bars are a nightmare.

----------


## mbc

> I'm wondering how much experience you have of using apideas? Everyone must of course be free to use whatever mini nuc he/she chooses. But having used various other types, Kielers/Warnholtz/Swibines as well as Apideas, there is no doubt in my mind that the latter outperforms the others in every quantifiable aspect. .


I've used apideas for years and still use the ones I've got, but all things considered I wouldnt buy any more if I was to buy more mini nucs.
The only quantifiable aspects that count are success rate and ease of setting up and both are comparable between the apidea and Kieler designs. 
What has driven my latest choice of mini nuc is the practicalities of overwintering queens in them and I've plumbed for the mini plus style hive and am finding them very good so far, only time will tell if they are a wise investment though.

----------


## Jon

> the practicalities of overwintering queens


Bigger is definitely better in that regard. I have apidea supers which I use to overwinter them on 10 frames. Didn't work last winter though.

----------


## mbc

I estimated 12 miniplus frames(two hive bodies stacked) to be roughly equivalent to eight national frames and quite a nice configuration for wintering, I scored half marks( one of two !) for the ones I tried in the winter just gone.

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## Jon

Most of my full colonies overwinter on 8 national frames or less. I often use insulated dummies to reduce a national brood box to 7 or 8 frames depending upon cluster size at the end of October.

----------


## Dark Bee

> I've used apideas for years and still use the ones I've got, but all things considered I wouldnt buy any more if I was to buy more mini nucs.
> The only quantifiable aspects that count are success rate and ease of setting up and both are comparable between the apidea and Kieler designs. 
> What has driven my latest choice of mini nuc is the practicalities of overwintering queens in them and I've plumbed for the mini plus style hive and am finding them very good so far, only time will tell if they are a wise investment though.


I absolutely agree that the possibility of overwintering queens is very attractive. To consistently overwinter a nuc. hive here, it needs to be five frames, but preferably six. A three frame hive is unlikely to be alive in Spring. The advent of polystyrene may, in fact probably will alter that.
Good luck with your mini-plus's - it would be interesting to read of your experiences using them.

----------


## Jon

> Good luck with your mini-plus's - it would be interesting to read of your experiences using them.


Likewise. I have no experience with these at all.

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## prakel

SAM_1287.jpgSAM_1004.jpgSAM_0959.jpg

I've written before about the mini-plus hives (Lyson version); over all they're excellent boxes which winter well here in the South as single box units although I do feel there are advantages to having them in double boxes during the Spring. 

I've made my own version of the hive out of wood (presently trialling mrk2) the first ones of which not only stood side by side with the poly boxes through last year's dreary Summer but equally, wintered as well. The only advantage of the home made ones is that they cost less than five pounds each even when new materials are used and (in the case of mrk2) take three nucs per box -albeit only on four combs.

SAM_1351.jpg

Built from OSB3 -a very different beast than OSB2!

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Prakel
http://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/mini-bee...s-mating-hive/
these look great wish I had paid more attention earlier
Thanks a lot for the tip

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## prakel

SAM_0957.jpgSAM_0976 (2).jpgSAM_1307.jpgSAM_1340.jpgSAM_1348.jpg

a couple more mini plus photos and one of our three-way boxes.

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## The Drone Ranger

Great stuff In pic number 2 and 3 the frame sides look black or painted in some way
Is that a trade secret or just coincidental ?

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## madasafish

I have made an apidea hybrid in 25mm celotex and am trialing it - no pics yet. Cost approx £3..

Last time I filled an apidea with the requisite bees and left 4 days in garage, about 40% died - stress I guess (our garage is used  - as a garage!)

So this time, I sprayed the two sides of a brood comb, shook all the bees into a container and turfed them into the apidea clone, added QC and left in cool from 4pm to 9.30pm .. and then opened the entrance.

This morning, it looks like most of them are still there.. will leave to settle and have a look in a week's time.

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## drumgerry

DR - I have one of those (unused so far) and the frame sides are black plastic.  I believe the design may have changed now to wooden side bars.  On the whole I'm happier using apideas then the mini-plus nucs.  Far fewer bees needed and in my opinion apideas are better designed than anything else out there.

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR - I have one of those (unused so far) and the frame sides are black plastic.  I believe the design may have changed now to wooden side bars.  On the whole I'm happier using apideas then the mini-plus nucs.  Far fewer bees needed and in my opinion apideas are better designed than anything else out there.


Thanks Drumgerry
would one of these mini hive make it through a winter do you think

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I have made an apidea hybrid in 25mm celotex and am trialing it - no pics yet. Cost approx £3..
> 
> Last time I filled an apidea with the requisite bees and left 4 days in garage, about 40% died - stress I guess (our garage is used  - as a garage!)
> 
> So this time, I sprayed the two sides of a brood comb, shook all the bees into a container and turfed them into the apidea clone, added QC and left in cool from 4pm to 9.30pm .. and then opened the entrance.
> 
> This morning, it looks like most of them are still there.. will leave to settle and have a look in a week's time.


Being a bit behind the times 
At my cave I had never heard of cellotex
But although they don't pay any tax those clever chaps a google know everything  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

I'm putting my faith in a tower block of apideas this winter DR.  But I know of someone in milder parts of Speyside who wintered a mini-plus successfully a couple of years ago.

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## drumgerry

A picture of glaikit me with cell raising bar and 11 of 20 sealed queen cells from today's Spey Beekeepers meeting.HH-7.jpg

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## Dark Bee

> Attachment 1649Attachment 1650Attachment 1646Attachment 1648Attachment 1647
> 
> a couple more mini plus photos and one of our three-way boxes.


Thank you for the photos Prakel. I found them to be inspirational; my two Paynes nucs. are now going to be housed in a purpose built box. Incredibly the center of the  polystyrene roof is scarcely 1/2" thick. The clear plastic crown board is 3/8" too small in both directions and will sag with top bee space :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Thin as the "crown board" is, it lifts the roof and makes it even more unstable. I have seen better lids on a shoe box. With a little more thought and probably with less cost a much superior box could have been designed, it is a such a shame this did not happen.

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## drumgerry

At 1/2 inch thick probably still better insulation than the ply/metal combo most wooden hives use Dark Bee!

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## mbc

> Thank you for the photos Prakel.


I'll second that, its great to see this thread veering towards a mini plus appreciation society group hug !  :Smile:

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## prakel

SAM_1399.jpgSAM_1402.jpg

A couple of photos of a mini nuc designed by my nephew (I'd almost given up on mixing bees and nephews after a couple of negative attempts and then along came a 'natural' if ever there was...). The box is actually designed to hold two mating colonies with a division board feeder (seen pushed against the back wall in these photos). 

Room for a few modifications (which have already been done: photos not available at present) but over all a simple design to replicate.

8" top bars to put it in perspective.

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## prakel

> Great stuff In pic number 2 and 3 the frame sides look black or painted in some way
> Is that a trade secret or just coincidental ?





> DR - I have one of those (unused so far) and the frame sides are black plastic.  I believe the design may have changed now to wooden side bars.


DR, as drumgerry's answer although I'll take the liberty of adding that there are advantages and disadvantages to them. The main down side to my thinking is that the sides have a tendancy after a few years to warp outwards at the bottom which results in the bottom bar hanging loose and the frame sides scuffing along the wall as you remove the frame. Not the end of the world and the new wooden frames that they're supplying will definitely resolve that issue.

The positive side of those frames is that they use two pieces of wood as a top bar which is housed inside the frame lugs. This is designed to allow you to 'trap' your foundation but is also really useful if you want to catch a wild cell as it allows a piece of comb to be fitted into the frame in the same way.

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## Dark Bee

> At 1/2 inch thick probably still better insulation than the ply/metal combo most wooden hives use Dark Bee!


There might well not be a great deal in it Drumgerry, but a traditional type roof nowadays probably has 2" of polystyrene over the crown board which will reduce the u value very substantially. The problems with the nuc. roof relate not only to it's lack of substance but also to the how easily it falls/blows off accompanied by the undersized piece of plastic underneath. I want to make it clear these are my own views, I am commenting on what I see and the manufacturers are entirely unknown to me. I would be delighted if it had been possible to describe the item as being eminently suitable for purpose.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks prakel I'm definitely going to explore the Mini Hives when funds allow : :Smile:

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## prakel

> Thanks prakel I'm definitely going to explore the Mini Hives when funds allow :


Hi Drone Ranger, there is another version (also called mini-plus) on the market -made by Swienty as far as I know. I'm not sure whether the frames are interchangeable but they're both based around the idea of a half length dadant shallow frame (the Lyson top bar is actually a little longer than a true half length). The potential upside of the Swienty version is that the different hive components are sold separately so a combined order with a few others (or piggy backed on someone else's order) to get around the shipping could see you getting the brood bodies for approx £10 each (£12 each for a single order of 10 delivered by UPS), of course, you'd have to make your own floors and insulated roofs as well as frames but I think that it could be quite a cost effective way to put together a top quality mating hive.

http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp...&vareid=113254

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## drumgerry

I do think you're being a tad unfair DB but you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.  My opinion - like any other modern hive roof design (wood or poly) it benefits from a brick sitting on top.  Probably more so as it's made from poly.  But it's less easy to dislodge in strong winds than the Modern Beekeeping poly nuc roof for instance.  I won't say that I wouldn't be glad if it was another inch thicker.  I think that would be a great design improvement.  But I think that, with the feeder cut out and replaced with a removeable frame feeder, they're a great low cost nuc.  And there's no reason a 50mm section of Kingspan can't be sat on top of the roof (with brick on  top!) to make up any deficit in insulation.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks prakel they look good as well  :Smile: 

I spotted this for Drumgerry when browsing 
http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp...&vareid=112551

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## Dark Bee

Drumgerry, there is nothing low cost in Shamrockshire and the nucs were not an exception  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . They cost 90 euros for two i.e. that is £40+, GBP each. Other equipment suppliers here charge more!
I want to again make it clear, I am but commenting on what I have in front of me, I have no quarrel whatsoever with Paynes. That integral feeder is about as useful as a bicycle is to a fish and the roof and crown board are by any standards quite inept.

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## Black Comb

I have borrowed the hopkins board (national) plus I made my own last year (langstroth). Pics. of both attached.
I cannot see why the 6" swuare will not work as it is the same principle. Need to score some cells to leave enough gap between so that you do not get multiple cells adjacent.
The recent trial with the national did not yield that many cells. Not exactly sure why (it was a sub committee operation !!) but a couple of reasons may be that it was in a queenright hive set up for Ben Harden with Hopkins board over. Also, not much insulation used over the top.

The frame in the national is a standard brood frame (empty) and the one in the lang is a super frame. I can't remember why the chap who first told me about this suggested a super frame, perhaps it's because we only run 10 - 12 hives each.

Lang set on next post.

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## Black Comb

Hopkins lang.

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## The Drone Ranger

Black Comb thanks a lot 
The pics are crystal clear 
I think even I could make one using those pics 
Might not be as neat and well crafted as yours though 
Its good to try something different once in a while

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## drumgerry

> Drumgerry, there is nothing low cost in Shamrockshire and the nucs were not an exception . They cost 90 euros for two i.e. that is £40+, GBP each. Other equipment suppliers here charge more!
> I want to again make it clear, I am but commenting on what I have in front of me, I have no quarrel whatsoever with Paynes. That integral feeder is about as useful as a bicycle is to a fish and the roof and crown board are by any standards quite inept.


That's a bit steep DB - you should team up with Jon. He got a pallet of them to Belfast for less than we can get them individually here in world class tennis land.   At £40+ I can appreciate your chagrin a bit better now!  Agreed re the feeder. I think it was a reasonable attempt at a National poly nuc but with some design flaws.  At the £29 we can get them for I'm reasonably happy with them.  

And DR - that's an incubator right?  It's in Dansk and I've only watched the Killing a couple of times so I'm not too hot on that.  I do however already have a Brinsea hen egg incubator I've thought about using.

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## Dark Bee

> Black Comb thanks a lot 
> ..................................................  ...............................
> Its good to try something different once in a while


Black Comb, I too would like to thank you for the photos - my questions have been answered.
DB.

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## Jon

> That's a bit steep DB - you should team up with Jon. He got a pallet of them to Belfast for less than we can get them individually here in world class tennis land.


You had to buy 30 or more in the sale. The nuc plus the eke worked out at £20.50, free carriage.
It was Keith Pierce put me on to that deal in the first place as he includes the Payne nuc box when he sells a nuc of bees. Saves fighting to get the nuc returned if you just stick 30 Euro on the price and let the buyer keep it.
I bought over 60 and we split them between association members. I had all the money in before the credit card bill arrived.

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## gavin

> The clear plastic crown board is 3/8" too small in both directions and will sag with top bee space Thin as the "crown board" is, it lifts the roof and makes it even more unstable. I have seen better lids on a shoe box. With a little more thought and probably with less cost a much superior box could have been designed, it is a such a shame this did not happen.


My observations on this, having used them for a few months, that the thin perspex cover is fine.  It doesn't sag (though it might if you cut away the integral feeder, I don't see the need to do this), I haven't noticed it lifting the roof and it covers the area fine.  The ability to replace the lid with the bees all kept off the thick wall tops appeals greatly.  I did have lids blown off while I was away recently, but previously I've been more careful with bricks or cheap straps from Tesco.

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp...&vareid=112931
Magnetic queen catcher 
is this sportsmanlike ?

Must be like sitting in a bass drum when it rains onto a paynes nuc though

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## Jon

The Payne boxes are fine.
Add more insulation above the roof and under a brick if you feel the need.
I am tempted to cut out the feeders as Adam has done.
No real need to have the feeder as a permanent feature.

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## fatshark

There's a great video advertising that magnetic queen catcher ... shows the Q returning to the hive and getting 'hung up' on a magnet across the entrance. Effective - yes, sporting - debatable.

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=Jon;19928]You had to buy 30 or more in the sale. The nuc plus the eke worked out at £20.50, free carriage.
..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ......................

Lucky devils, a nuc and an eke here cost 60 euros, which is probably close to £55.00. I could overlook a few design flaws @£20.50 :Smile:

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## Jon

Keith got his at a similar price. Can't remember exactly but I think it was under 30 Euro.
He will be along in a minute to confirm!

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## Dark Bee

> Keith got his at a similar price. Can't remember exactly but I think it was under 30 Euro.
> He will be along in a minute to confirm!


I shall be interested in hearing more. There is an embryo Bee Breeding Group that will be in need of some and will also need Apideas. Once a well known control freak has been dealt with - things will move fast. A.M.M. of course!

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## keith pierce

> Keith got his at a similar price. Can't remember exactly but I think it was under 30 Euro.
> He will be along in a minute to confirm!


They work out at about €24 delivered to your door, but you have to buy the full pallet. The pallet can hold 36. Keep an eye out for the January sales as this is when his prices are reduced

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## Jon

The pallet of 36, is that with or without the eke?

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## keith pierce

> The pallet of 36, is that with or without the eke?


No.I never seen the advert for the reduced ekes till you pointed them out to me. I think they were only a 1 quid extra

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## The Drone Ranger

I've just cleaned 4 Paynes nucs this morning in about an hour
They are good tough polystyrene and pretty easy to clean

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## Dark Bee

> I've just cleaned 4 Paynes nucs this morning in about an hour
> They are good tough polystyrene and pretty easy to clean


Have you modified them for your Smiths? What do you think of the plastic crownboard? My two will hopefully be in service shortly.

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## The Drone Ranger

No dark bee I just stuck smith frames in them 
Wouldn't like chance them in the back of the car though just in case (a mod would be very easy)

I never got a plastic crown board because that's a fairly recent innovation Lol!
My main gripe is the wall between the feeder and the main body is so thick
I call it "the bee press" because if your not careful it looks like an Eccles cake after a while
Insulation wise they are good but a lump of ply or a paving slab on the roof will stop it blowing away and dampen the racket if it rains

You will be pleased with them 
In the middle of the floor there is a square of mesh and if you are hiving a swarm lots of bees walk under the Nuc and cling to the outside of the mesh so you need to make something to fit in the gap from the outside to keep them off the mesh

Also a bit of foam long enough to fill the top of the feed slot helps because if its empty they make brace comb in there and its hard to get it out
Making a better float for the feeder slot might be worthwhile (I haven't yet)
They are stackable and solid, and easy to transport, light, and fairly cheap.
Very hot water and bleach cleans them pretty well
I think you will like them once you have some bees in them

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## lindsay s

Update on last weeks grafting.  16 of the grafts were successful and the best queen cells were placed in nucs yesterday. All being well they should hatch before Friday. Unfortunately for me one of my nucs came off worst in a fight with a lawnmower today, so by the time I got round to sort out the mess the queen cell had had it. I had to introduce a spare queen cell to that nuc and Im hoping it will be OK.

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## fatshark

> ?.. one of my nucs came off worst in a fight with a lawnmower today, so by the time I got round to sort out the mess the queen cell had had it. I had to introduce a spare queen cell to that nuc and Im hoping it will be OK.


I'm struggling to picture the lawnmower vs. mini-nuc altercation in which only the QC gets wrecked.

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## The Drone Ranger

Good luck on the weather front now Lindsay
how long after emergence do you think before the mating flights ?

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## The Drone Ranger

> I'm struggling to picture the lawnmower vs. mini-nuc altercation in which only the QC gets wrecked.


Lindsay's queens lead from the front 
Like Napoleon

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## lindsay s

It was a wooden nuc which had been knocked over on its side. The guilty party tried to patch things up but being the gardener and not a beekeeper he left the introduced queen cell outside on the grass. D. R. I hope they get mated as soon as possible but its not uncommon to wait 6 weeks before a queen starts laying up here. The queens were grafted at our secretarys apiary and I have 4 nucs over there at the moment.

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## Jon

In the good old days when we all wore tinfoil hats, that mower would have been dismissed as circumstantial evidence and the failure of the queen to emerge would have been laid squarely at some chemical treatment applied to the lawn to kill leatherjackets.
My vote goes for precocious early supersedure of the queen which had nothing to do with the mower unless it was being ridden by Julian Little.

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## beejazz

Here's some pic's of an apidea, with my one and only, first attempt, grafted queen.  Finally got around to making up a nuc for her, and just in time I think.  The bees were hanging around at the entrance, could have been because it was hot, or bearding because they were thinking of swarming?  Checked inside and there was no room left, and a play cell with an egg inside.  Took me ages to find her, she wasn't on any of the frames, finally saw her on a wall.  Caged her and put her into a nuc.  Should have done it a few weeks ago.  Does the brood look OK to the experienced apidea users?  All the five frames were chock a block like the one in the pic.P1000656.jpgP1000655.jpgP1000659.jpg

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## Jon

A single apidea frame of emerging bees will produce enough bees to fill another apidea.
I move frames of brood from apideas like this to others which have lost their queen in order to stabilise them and keep the population up.
the other possibility is adding another 5 frames via an apidea super.

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## fatshark

Brood looks good to me ... I guess the "good laying pattern" is a moot point when there's no space left to lay!

Can anyone remind me where the best price are for Apideas? For once I'm sure it isn't Buzzybees, but a search of the forum for Apidea yielded rather too many hits to review. As a Kieler user I want to get a couple to try in comparison before scaling up ...

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## beejazz

> A single apidea frame of emerging bees will produce enough bees to fill another apidea.
> I move frames of brood from apideas like this to others which have lost their queen in order to stabilise them and keep the population up.
> the other possibility is adding another 5 frames via an apidea super.


Yes I must buy some apidea supers, although, I know the apideas are cheapish, but once you've bought all the extras, supers, new frames etc, they are suddenly not so cheap!  It would help if the apideas were supplied with five frames instead of three, that is a little tricky of them, after all the feeder is removeable!

----------


## Black Comb

> Brood looks good to me ... I guess the "good laying pattern" is a moot point when there's no space left to lay!
> 
> Can anyone remind me where the best price are for Apideas? For once I'm sure it isn't Buzzybees, but a search of the forum for Apidea yielded rather too many hits to review. As a Kieler user I want to get a couple to try in comparison before scaling up ...


Beeequipped in Derbyshire.

----------


## fatshark

Cheers Black Comb

----------


## Dark Bee

My thanks also Black Comb. I had forgotten their existence and their prices are reasonable - do they do a sale?

----------


## Black Comb

> My thanks also Black Comb. I had forgotten their existence and their prices are reasonable - do they do a sale?


Only just discovered them
Sale? - I think you are being bit optimistic DB.

----------


## Dark Bee

> Only just discovered them
> Sale? - I think you are being bit optimistic DB.


Just my attempt at humour Dark Comb  :Smile: . At those prices, the likelihood of them having a sale is limited, but one never knows!
A new bee breeding group with whom I am associated, will have an initial requirement of perhaps 20/25 apideas (for next year) and it would be desirable to get them at the best price - we are an impoverished lot.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Just my attempt at humour Dark Comb . At those prices, the likelihood of them having a sale is limited, but one never knows!
> A new bee breeding group with whom I am associated, will have an initial requirement of perhaps 20/25 apideas (for next year) and it would be desirable to get them at the best price - we are an impoverished lot.


DB
they were £19-50 a few weeks ago
I bought 10 and delivery was £12
so £207 (or £20-70 delivered each)

If it was 25 that would be £19.98 each inc delivery
If you ring they will dispatch with invoice
Payment was by cheque on delivery

----------


## drumgerry

To get back to the "pics" element of this thread! :Wink: 

Here's a few queens I've reared this summer.  Also the first and last pics are of a queen sent to me by yer man Gavin - she's in lay now.  And I think the other is no more Gavin.  You can also see some of my hybridised workers which is very much a work in progress.  

photo(1).JPGphoto(2).JPGphoto(3).JPGphoto(4).JPGphoto.jpg

Hope you can forgive the blurriness.  They're damned hard to photograph one handed on the wee apidea frames!

----------


## Dark Bee

> DB
> they were £19-50 a few weeks ago
> I bought 10 and delivery was £12
> ............................................



Thanks for that DR. The cost of a courier to bring them here would probably be in region of £35.00, at least that is a typical charge for something to be sent over. It is likely that I will collect them myself sometime I'm back in Blighty. My own apideas came from Swientys years ago, the GBBG negotiated a special deal and they cost £10/£12 each as far as I can remember. I noticed the gentleman from whom I bought the Paynes nucs was selling apideas for 28 euros - they are unlikely to be cheaper than that here.

----------


## Dark Bee

> To get back to the "pics" element of this thread!
> 
> Here's a few queens I've reared this summer.  Also the first and last pics are of a queen sent to me by yer man Gavin - she's in lay now.  And I think the other is no more Gavin.  You can also see some of my hybridised workers which is very much a work in progress.  
> 
> photo(1).JPGphoto(2).JPGphoto(3).JPGphoto(4).JPGphoto.jpg
> 
> Hope you can forgive the blurriness.  They're damned hard to photograph one handed on the wee apidea frames!


Have you decided on names for them yet Drumgerry? If one might suggest it; perhaps something Scottish sounding.

----------


## drumgerry

I'm not really a queen namer DB to be honest.  I suppose Gavin's queen could be "Maw Broon" after the DC Thomson legend. Did the Broons make it over the water I wonder?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks for that DR. The cost of a courier to bring them here would probably be in region of £35.00, at least that is a typical charge for something to be sent over. It is likely that I will collect them myself sometime I'm back in Blighty. My own apideas came from Swientys years ago, the GBBG negotiated a special deal and they cost £10/£12 each as far as I can remember. I noticed the gentleman from whom I bought the Paynes nucs was selling apideas for 28 euros - they are unlikely to be cheaper than that here.


Thornes are £32

http://beeequipped.co.uk/component/o...ist/Itemid,29/
they are very helpful 
I would ask about delivery they may well be cheaper than the rest

----------


## drumgerry

And if you're looking for online ordering with  a bigger supplier I think Paynes are the cheapest just now at £23.16 each

----------


## gavin

> I suppose Gavin's queen could be "Maw Broon" after the DC Thomson legend.


From Dundee virgin to Maw Broon in a few short weeks!

----------


## Calum

> Thornes are £32
> http://beeequipped.co.uk/component/o...ist/Itemid,29/
> they are very helpful 
> I would ask about delivery they may well be cheaper than the rest


from 21€ from Holtermann  Post up to 10 kg / 13,90 EURO, to 30 kg / 21,90 EUR

----------


## prakel

> from 21€ from Holtermann  Post up to 10 kg / 13,90 EURO, to 30 kg / 21,90 EUR


Ha! Interestingly, I've had an email from Holtermann within this last week politely explaining that they won't ship to the UK (Southern England). Quite a disappointment actually.

edit: the prospective order was for the swienty style mini-plus brood chambers so probably not that different from an apidea order.

----------


## mbc

> Ha! Interestingly, I've had an email from Holtermann within this last week politely explaining that they won't ship to the UK (Southern England). Quite a disappointment actually.
> 
> edit: the prospective order was for the swienty style mini-plus brood chambers so probably not that different from an apidea order.


Is this thread responsible for abelo selling out of mini plus boxes just as I was going to order some more ? If anyone gets hold of the swienty version I would be very interested in knowing if they are compatible with the lyson mini plus hives.

----------


## prakel

> Is this thread responsible for abelo selling out of mini plus boxes just as I was going to order some more ? *If anyone gets hold of the swienty version I would be very interested in knowing if they are compatible with the lyson mini plus hives.*


Seconded... although I _hope_ to have a few before the end of the Summer myself.

----------


## Calum

> Ha! Interestingly, I've had an email from Holtermann within this last week politely explaining that they won't ship to the UK (Southern England). Quite a disappointment actually.
> 
> edit: the prospective order was for the swienty style mini-plus brood chambers so probably not that different from an apidea order.


Depending on the order size I could probably ship it on for you - if you pay the postage of course  :Smile: .
Did they give a reason?

----------


## prakel

> Depending on the order size I could probably ship it on for you - if you pay the postage of course .
> Did they give a reason?


Hi Calum, thanks that's a very kind offer, one on which I may come back to you although I do already have a couple of enquiries 'out there' on which I'm waiting replies. 

Their 'reason' was....




> "We don't deliver to the United Kingdom".


And with a name like _Prakel_ too!

edit: the quote taken from their email sounds rather blunt when read out of context but they were actually very polite about the whole thing.

----------


## Calum

Hi, ok,
I'd call thornes, say thats the quote you got from Holtermann, and as a valued customer you expect at least the same price in pounds, if not equivalent euros.
Why not, they are buying them from source for about 10€, or less..
Don't ask don't get.

but thats the Scotsman in me maybe.

----------


## fatshark

Half a dozen to go and it's the end of another season ...

2013-08-22-18.19.29b.jpg

There's an additional publicity-shy cell out of shot

Look how dark my bees are  :Wink:

----------


## gavin

LOL!  You mean this dark?!

fatdark.jpg

I can almost hear them singing opera from here.

----------


## fatshark

Drat and double drat ...  :Embarrassment:

----------


## madasafish

> .
> Don't ask don't get.
> 
> but thats the Scotsman in me maybe.


There's a very rude joke about that.. but no Scotsmen involved..

----------


## fatshark

I've either got a faulty QE or one of the cells hatched 3 days sooner than expected ... they were OK on Saturday  :Frown: 

DSC00890.jpg

I'll probably have one more go this season ...

----------


## Jon

...or maybe a virgin flew in from an apidea.

I had cells torn down at the weekend as well.
A virgin emerged from a cell they had drawn on the comb.
I am calling it quits for the year. I have a few mated queens in apideas and another 15 or so with virgins which I hope will get mated soon.

----------


## prakel

> ....I'm definitely going to explore the Mini Hives when funds allow :


A short video showing the mini-plus (as the forum is a little 'quiet' at present).

----------


## Bridget

> A short video showing the mini-plus (as the forum is a little 'quiet' at present).


That's a really interesting piece of kit.  Is it available in this country?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## fatshark

Bridget ... Thorne's advertise them at a bit over £40 I think. They look nicely made though I can't work out from the video what the black entrance block is. A QE perhaps? They look a reasonable size for overwintering but might need quite a few bees to stock them at the beginning of the season.

Have funds allowed yet DR? What's the verdict?

----------


## prakel

> Bridget ... Thorne's advertise them at a bit over £40 I think. They look nicely made though I can't work out from the video what the black entrance block is. A QE perhaps? They look a reasonable size for overwintering but might need quite a few bees to stock them at the beginning of the season.
> 
> Have funds allowed yet DR? What's the verdict?


Abelo also stock them (seems to be out of stock at present though). Mine did come from Thornes. The black blocks are ventilators for closing the doors instead of using the solid blocks. Quite a few people (myself included) use them to overwinter. Very versatile piece of kit.

----------


## Jon

I have never been a fan of any sort of double unit although having more bees in a box is obviously a good thing for overwintering.

I make my apideas into doubles or triples as I remove queens at the end of the season.
The new apidea supers allow the feeder to be slotted in. You can then vary the frame count from 3 to 5 (removing the feeder), 6 (apidea with super, each with a feeder) 8 (apidea with super plus one feeder either top or bottom) and so on.The lack of ability to take a feeder was a defect of the original supers but I am converting them one by one via some surgery with a Stanley knife.

I combine them via a piece of mesh.




The stylish correx nuc boxes hold anything between one frame and seven depending upon the combination of insulated dummy frames inside.

correx-box-mesh-floor.jpg correx-box-insulation.jpg correx-box-insulated-dummy.jpg
I use a 50 mm deep piece of poly faced with correx which sits above the top bars and under the lid as I make these 10 inches deep and a brood frame is only 8 inches deep.

I have 6 of the Paynes nuc boxes as well. I am going to fill the eke with insulation to make a 4 inch deep insulated lid.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Have funds allowed yet DR? What's the verdict?


Haven't even got one double nuc at the moment 
I bought 10 Smith  brood boxes from Thornes 
And 10 apideas early in the year plus keiler supers 
Various and sundry purchases followed for making roofs etc
Finishing the season  with the sugar syrup
So the treasury door has been bolted by the missus 
Definitely need a few of those nucs though  :Smile:

----------


## prakel

The beauty of the mini-plus is that it can be used as a very stable single colony on 6 combs. It's that flexibility which really makes it a great buy.

----------


## mbc

I am a big fan of the mini plus 'double unit'.  I have apideas (>10), kielers (>20), half a dozen langstroth half frame 'double unit' poly mating nucs as sold by Park beekeeping supplies and about a dozen mini plus hives.
By far, my favourite to use are the mini plus, and for whatever reasons they have been the most successful in getting queens mated this season.  This could be down to my continuing love affair with them, meaning I put a little more care in setting them up, but I cant think how, I just think they are a good size, a good shape, nice size frames, sensible entrances and have a well designed feeder, all leading to them being the best mating nucs I've found.  This is before going on to how adaptable they are and the ease of overwintering queens in them.
A few additions make them even better, I use a plastic sheet 'crown board' to stop the frame tops getting propolised to the  bottom of the roof or feeder ( with appropriately positioned holes for access into the feeder), and I've made up a wooden dummy board each (rather than the poly division board they come with) to facilitate keeping the frames from getting too fat when the division board is out.  
A fantastic piece of kit which has really helped my beekeeping by making it so easy to keep a surplus of queens ticking over with remarkably little effort (and less wasted efforts) compared to any of the other mating nucs I've tried.

----------


## mbc

> The beauty of the mini-plus is that it can be used as a very stable single colony on 6 combs. It's that flexibility which really makes it a great buy.


Most of mine are now on 12 combs (two box's) and looking fine until next spring( touch wood !).

----------


## Jon

What is 12 combs equivalent to - about 4 BS brood 14 X 8 deeps I would guess?

----------


## gavin

Mating does seem better in Paynes nucs rather than Apideas (smallish sample), and the stability of them - like the Mini Plus discussed above - is better than an Apidea.  But then 2 frames of bees and brood (plus one of stores) in early summer is quite a lot of bees to commit to a nuc unless you are trying to make increase.  From one May full colony part-working double brood you might get 6 such nucs whereas if you are harvesting young bees for Apideas it could stand a few rounds of stocking maybe 5-6 each time and still leave a colony strong enough for the heather.

With a Paynes (or a Belfast Correx), you have the flexibility of being able to use frames of brood to strengthen other colonies, or fuse it with another nuc to create a full colony, or overwinter it as it is. 

So do you Mini Plus users aspire to keep most of them them ticking over overwinter, and if so do they build in spring at the right time to split and insert queen cells?  Is that how you manage the issue of different frame sizes, and minimise the need to restock them with more bees in spring?

Been mulling over such issues as we may move to a more distant mating site next year to improve the control of mating.  Bigger mating boxes seem to mean that less regular visits are needed.

----------


## Jon

Having enough bees to fill mini nucs is the main issue.
I got 50 mated queens from 30 apideas this season but I did not have all of them filled until late July.
Some of the early ones produced 3 mated queens.
I had a prime swarm of yellow mongrels arrive in the garden early June and it must have filled over 20 of them
The season started a month late as well, and I had no queens laying before June 30th.

I think apideas work really well for getting queens mated in summer but are definitely on the small side for overwintering, thus the need to make doubles or triples.

The Payne sale is on again so box plus eke is only £20.50 if you buy 30 or more.

----------


## mbc

> What is 12 combs equivalent to - about 4 BS brood 14 X 8 deeps I would guess?


I roughly calculated twas about the same comb area as 8 national brood frames.

----------


## mbc

> So do you Mini Plus users aspire to keep most of them them ticking over overwinter, and if so do they build in spring at the right time to split and insert queen cells?  Is that how you manage the issue of different frame sizes, and minimise the need to restock them with more bees in spring?
>   Bigger mating boxes seem to mean that less regular visits are needed.


I'm still learning with the mini plus hives, being in my second season with them and only this one with a reasonable number.  This spring I only had one mini plus make it through (50% loss of the ones I tried to overwinter 12/13) and this one survivor was enough to stock lots of other nucs with a frame of unsealed brood to go along with a cupfull of bees.  Some of the mini plus hives were also started with a cupfull of bees and a ripe cell, the same quantity of bees as I use for apideas and kielers-the difference being, when a mini plus works straight away and the queen gets going there is much more time and more beneficial expansion that the embryonic colony can get through before it needs any attention.
I imagine when I stop expanding their numbers that a bit of judicious shaking and collecting of adult bees will be needed to avoid the little boxes from becoming overcrowded, but this will be a lot less immediately pressing than with any of the smaller mating nucs.
I cannot see any reason to leave any of the boxes unoccupied at the end of the season when the last round of harvesting is done, I have one three high at the moment, I must strap it somehow before the autumn gales blow it over.

----------


## Jon

> I roughly calculated twas about the same comb area as 8 national brood frames.


Near as dammit a full colony then!
Do you not think with that amount of bees it would be simpler to work on standard brood frames rather than smaller mating nuc type frames?
You could set up a 4 frame nuc with a divider and an separate entrance at each end and double it up in winter to get the same result.

----------


## mbc

> Near as dammit a full colony then!
> Do you not think with that amount of bees it would be simpler to work on standard brood frames rather than smaller mating nuc type frames?
> You could set up a 4 frame nuc with a divider and an separate entrance at each end and double it up in winter to get the same result.


With the divider in and a tall, narrow and well insulated space, only a cupfull of bees is needed to get them going, same as an apidea.  Each frame of brood taken from production colonies is lost honey whereas it would be difficult to notice a drop at all with only shaking a few cupfulls of bees from a production colony.  I do have lots of split national boxes which I use to mate queens and start nucs, but I'm finding it more advantageous to leave these till last so as not to split up good colonies early on.
Its always a difficult decision to go with yet another frame size but after trying one I bought cheap on ebay I havent had much doubt that this is the format I want to mate my queens with.  The price helps, they are very reasonable from Abelo.

----------


## fatshark

I'm thinking about similar things Gavin ... I tend to run 8-10 Kielers, stocking them in the spring and overwintering them as doubles if possible. However, stocking them early enough for queen rearing makes quite a dent in a couple of colonies. Secondly, as I've found out this year, removing the queens at 28-35 days (I think that's from emergence, Jon will be along to correct me ... my Excel spreadsheet automagically tells me when to start another round of grafting and move the queens along) means the Kielers never build up very strongly. Next year I'm going to try 3 frame mating hives, splitting a full colony 3-4 ways in the spring and using them for a succession of queens. I've done this for my last round of queen rearing this year ... splitting the colony was a lot less work than populating the mini-nucs and you have the advantage of being able to see the queen lay up a reasonable slab of brood (hopefully!). If strong enough late on they should overwinter OK.

I've posted on another thread on splitting a MB Langstroth poly nuc into two three frame nucs ... these seem to be working pretty well so far.

I see the point by Jon on working on standard sized frames. I see this as a real advantage. You can swap them out or boost them as required. For remote mating sites this might be a real advantage, as well as the 'flexibility' hinted at by mbc in terms of avoiding overcrowding and - presumably - running critically low on stores.

----------


## Jon

The thing is, all forms of mini nuc work to get queens mated.
The management and checking interval is probably more critical than whatever one you chose.
They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
Keilers and Swi-bine have several design faults  but are inexpensive.

I notice in the queen rearing group that some people have far more success than others even though everyone starts with queen cells grafted from the same queen.
Some check far too often, others virtually abandon them.
Some put in far too many bees leading to absconding and others arrive with about 50 bees in them so the cell is chilled and the queen does not emerge.
If I have queens a week or more from emergence and there is a perfect mating day, I check the apideas 2-3 days later and get the excluders on the front if eggs are present.

----------


## mbc

> The thing is, all forms of mini nuc work to get queens mated.
> The management and checking interval is probably more critical than whatever one you chose.
> They all have their advantages and disadvantages.


I couldnt agree more Jon, each of us needs to find what works best for our own systems, each will work, but which one gives the best results for the least amount of effort is what sways my thinking.

----------


## Jon

Might try one of those double ones next time I am ordering something from Abelo.
I have a couple of swi-bines and have worked with Keilers and don't really like them.
I have also seen a range or home made mating nucs usually made from ply and these work as well but the weight is a real problem.

I am thinking of scaling up quite a bit for next year. I am so used to working with apideas it would take a lot to change my mind.
If it ain't broke.... is near the top of my list of favourite sayings!

Apideas can be bought for about £20 so selling one queen covers the cost.
Same applies to any of them I suppose.
I find it strange that more associations are not geared up to help members rear a few queens.

----------


## prakel

> So do you Mini Plus users aspire to keep most of them them ticking over overwinter, and if so do they build in spring at the right time to split and insert queen cells?  Is that how you manage the issue of different frame sizes, and minimise the need to restock them with more bees in spring?
> 
> Been mulling over such issues as we may move to a more distant mating site next year to improve the control of mating.  Bigger mating boxes seem to mean that less regular visits are needed.


I'm no expert by any means but I've been using these boxes since Thornes first listed them in their catalogue, probably 6 or 7 years ago -I'd have to check receipts to be sure. In that time I've tried to do just as you enquire; overwinter, split in the Spring etc. I've mentioned the overwintering config and Spring build up before. Although I originally used two boxes I now find that I can easily overwinter single boxes here on the South coast (that even includes my economy wood ones which are designed to take mini-plus frames) BUT, they need a second box in the Spring to accommodate them until new cells are available -I don't see much point in liquidating good family units for the sake of using a queen in April (unless it's to replace a failing one in an otherwise good colony) so I suppose that there's debatable value in single box wintering in more northerly areas where the double box is likely more viable. Answer to your question Gavin, yes they do build up well. Oh, by the way, having had some transport issues this year I can say with some personal knowledge that they travel well on local buses too...

----------


## gavin

Damian at Abelo has just let me know that they have the Mini Plus back in stock.  £32 for the two mating colonies in one nucleus box.

http://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/mini-bee...s-mating-hive/

G.

----------


## mbc

> Damian at Abelo has just let me know that they have the Mini Plus back in stock.  £32 for the two mating colonies in one nucleus box.
> 
> http://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/mini-bee...s-mating-hive/
> 
> G.


Shhh ! they're all mine....my preciousssss

----------


## gavin

Lol - he certainly owes you a percentage.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

----------


## Rosie

I was impressed with the look of these mini plus gizmos so ordered one last week.  When it arrived I was delighted with the quality and the principle seems very sound so I am looking forward to trying it out.

However, I have been thinking through how I might use it and a problem has come to light regarding the bee space.  It's neither top nor bottom with 4mm space above the frames and 5mm below.  The feeder is flat bottomed so I would expect the bees to thoroughly glue the frames to the feeder and as it's spigotted like most European hives I can't see how the the feeder can be removed without lifting all the frames.  On the other hand the roof has a shallow space under it so when the feeder is not in use the 2 half bee spaces (half under the roof and half over the frames) will make one and should work - except that bees might struggle over the internal divider and into the neigbouring colony.

I have been thinking about making a pair of crown boards so that I can lift the lid and manipulate each half without disturbing the other.  Unfortunalely the spigot design, coupled with the peculiar bee space arrangement makes the crown board difficult to design.  I considered adding 5 mm to the top of the brood box to give me a proper top bee space but then I would not be able to fit a second brood box without chopping 5mm off the bottom of it.

Can anyone who has used these kindly help with any ideas or explain how they have managed to overcome these perceived problems?

Thanks

----------


## mbc

> I was impressed with the look of these mini plus gizmos so ordered one last week.  When it arrived I was delighted with the quality and the principle seems very sound so I am looking forward to trying it out.
> 
> However, I have been thinking through how I might use it and a problem has come to light regarding the bee space.  It's neither top nor bottom with 4mm space above the frames and 5mm below.  The feeder is flat bottomed so I would expect the bees to thoroughly glue the frames to the feeder and as it's spigotted like most European hives I can't see how the the feeder can be removed without lifting all the frames.  On the other hand the roof has a shallow space under it so when the feeder is not in use the 2 half bee spaces (half under the roof and half over the frames) will make one and should work - except that bees might struggle over the internal divider and into the neigbouring colony.
> 
> I have been thinking about making a pair of crown boards so that I can lift the lid and manipulate each half without disturbing the other.  Unfortunalely the spigot design, coupled with the peculiar bee space arrangement makes the crown board difficult to design.  I considered adding 5 mm to the top of the brood box to give me a proper top bee space but then I would not be able to fit a second brood box without chopping 5mm off the bottom of it.
> 
> Can anyone who has used these kindly help with any ideas or explain how they have managed to overcome these perceived problems?
> 
> Thanks


I use a bit of plastic sheet with a couple of holes cut out to allow access into the feeder, works fine.

----------


## Rosie

Thanks mbc.  That was my first thought but I then feared the sheet would get stuck to both frames and feeder.  I wonder why the designer chose such a wierd arrangement for bee spaces abd then fail to be consistent with feeder and roof.

----------


## mbc

There's no reason not to keep the feeder on, the box is certainly not designed to be used with just the roof, because as you noticed, this would allow bees from each side to mingle.

----------


## prakel

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Swienty version of the mini-plus and queried the frame size. I was recently told by a continental user of those boxes that the top bars are the same length as the Lyson version but the frame depth is six and a quarter inches, so a shade shallower than Lyson's.

----------


## prakel

> However, I have been thinking through how I might use it and a problem has come to light regarding the bee space.  It's neither top nor bottom with 4mm space above the frames and 5mm below.  The feeder is flat bottomed so I would expect the bees to thoroughly glue the frames to the feeder and as it's spigotted like most European hives I can't see how the the feeder can be removed without lifting all the frames.  On the other hand the roof has a shallow space under it so when the feeder is not in use the 2 half bee spaces (half under the roof and half over the frames) will make one and should work - except that bees might struggle over the internal divider and into the neigbouring colony.
> 
> I have been thinking about making a pair of crown boards so that I can lift the lid and manipulate each half without disturbing the other.  Unfortunalely the spigot design, coupled with the peculiar bee space arrangement makes the crown board difficult to design.  I considered adding 5 mm to the top of the brood box to give me a proper top bee space but then I would not be able to fit a second brood box without chopping 5mm off the bottom of it.
> 
> Can anyone who has used these kindly help with any ideas or explain how they have managed to overcome these perceived problems?
> 
> Thanks


mbc's solution of a polythene cover is just about as neat and beautifully simplistic as you'll get.

Personally I tend to use these boxes as single colony units. This suits my approach/time limits well and (coincidentally) is, I believe, the way that the Swienty version is designed to be used.

So, with single colonies in each box I don't bother with a cover. This does occasionally lead to the frames being stuck to the feeder or underside of the roof as you so rightly speculate. Because of the small size of the boxes it's very easy to get the edge of the hive tool in to push the topbars down, free. I've never experienced any fatalities due to this -it's no worse than breaking open a full size colony where one box has shrunk a little; the interlocking lip on the mini-plus is really quite insignificant in practice.  

I have written here before about my dislike of that rim with regards to putting the hives back together -there's always a few bees intent on getting themselves caught and crushed but that's another issue -one that won't happen too often if you have calm, steady on the comb bees; the issues come when you try to use those 'boil over' types.

There are for sure a few niggles with these boxes but I really don't think that you can beat them for pure £ value.

----------


## fatshark

Thought I'd resurrect this thread so when we re-read it next January we are reminded how good the late Spring/early Summer is 

20140521-0005.jpg

 and because I've never had 100% take before  :Wink:

----------


## HJBee

Great pic Fat Shark!

----------


## fatshark

And from the same cell raiser 

20140523-0003.jpg

which is a reminder to check the frame of open brood that accompanies the cell bar frame.

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## drumgerry

This is part of the plan for the weekend.  Just disinfected it from its last use for hatching some chooks.  I could stick them in a top box over a Q Ex but I won't learn anything new that way!  The rollers inside just now are empty.  I'm just fiddling with the temp to get it to 34c from the 37.4c it was for the chooks.  Keith Pierce on the Irish beekeepers FB page gave me some helpful advice on temp and humidity as he uses the exact same model of incubator.

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## Jon

I think mine is a slightly updated version of that one. Brinsea Octagon 20.
I reckon it would hold at least 60 queen cells in rollers.

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## drumgerry

Aye Jon mine's the old style Octagon 20.  Bloody good incubator.  We hatched 16 from 24 chicken eggs in it a couple of months back.  The old model can be had on Ebay for a reasonable sum.

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## Jon

I got mine new from Omlet for about £125 including carriage off Amazon a couple of weeks ago.

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## greengumbo

> And from the same cell raiser 
> 
> Attachment 2030
> 
> which is a reminder to check the frame of open brood that accompanies the cell bar frame.


Yup. I had a "doh" moment when taking my T-1 days to emergence cells out last night. Breaking down the QCs on the brood frame resulted in virgins running amok. Think I squished / captured them all.

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## fatshark

Lookin' good for the ladies …

BBC_Weather_-_Coventry.jpg

 :Big Grin:

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## Jon

Been over 22c every day since Sunday in Belfast.

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## prakel

> Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Swienty version of the mini-plus and queried the frame size. I was recently told by a continental user of those boxes that the top bars are the same length as the Lyson version but the frame depth is six and a quarter inches, so a shade shallower than Lyson's.


Thornes are now selling these little boxes @£22.50 for floor (with a built in feeder), brood, roof and 6 Hoffman frames. An ashforth type feeder can be purchase separately.

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