# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Transporting queen cells

## drumgerry

I have the offer to graft from an association member's queen who lives about a 20 minute drive from me.

I have a cell raiser set up already at my home apiary and I have 12 mininucs filled with bees there.

My question is this - is there any way I can graft from this queen and then immediately transport the young larvae (in Jenter queen cells on two Jenter bars with room each for 10 cells) to my apiary?  The problem is my cell raiser is here and the queen is there.  In an ideal world I'd have the larvae raised there and then transport the sealed cells to my apiary.  Even then would I need something like a Carricell or would they be fine kept warmish by a passenger in the car?

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## Jon

The larvae are ok for an hour in transport as long as they do not dry out.
Put a damp tea towel over the graft frame with the larvae and put all inside a plastic bag.
the drop in temperature is not a problem, just the humidity.

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## drumgerry

Just the answer I was looking for Jon.  Brilliant!  I can now go ahead with my plans to graft from her.

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## gavin

> I have a cell raiser set up already at my home apiary and I have 12 mininucs filled with bees there.


Bear in mind that your grafts will be 4 days into the 16 day cycle.  So plan on virgins hatching out 12 days after you graft.  I'm not sure that queenless mininucs will be happy for that long.  Maybe you could try - very carefully - moving Q cells in early (once sealed) to keep the bees in the mininucs in optimistic mood?  You'd normally wait until near hatching to set up the mininucs (hope I'm reading you right).

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## drumgerry

My mininucs already have virgins in them so won't be queenless for long.

I'll time having the new batch of sealed queen cells with the now hatched queens in my mininucs being in lay and ready to go into nucs (as you've done with your ESBA1 colony).  I'm aiming at grafting the week after next so they'll be ready for the Apideas 10 or 11 days later which gives my current mininuc virgins a couple of weeks plus to get mated and laying.  If they aren't I'll be fairly ruthless in getting rid of them (except your two Gavin!) to clear the way for the next round.

Hopefully it'll all work out!

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## fatshark

Following the comment from Gavin ...
Through operator error, work commitments and weather I ended up keeping queenless bees in a Kieler for 6 days before adding the QCs. They look like they're going to be OK but there were more dead bees than I'd have liked. Not recommended.

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## Jon

That often happens, especially if the weather is hot. You can lose half the bees.
I like to fill the apideas one day and put the cell in the next.
If you use bees from a cell raiser you can just put the cell in right away.
I never get cells torn down and I don't understand that oft repeated advice about filling apideas and leaving them in the dark for 3 days.
It just isn't necessary.
I once left an apidea closed up by mistake for 11 days but it did have a virgin in it.
When I opened it there were eggs 2 days later.
She didn't hang about flying and mating.




> I'm not sure that queenless mininucs will be happy for that long.


Queenless apideas develop laying workers very quickly, in 2-3 weeks.

laying workers in apidea.jpg

Multiple larvae in the cells and all the eggs on the bottom of the cell.
That's another old wives tale about laying workers always leaving the eggs on the side of the cell.

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## fatshark

> Queenless apideas develop laying workers very quickly, in 2-3 weeks.
> 
> laying workers in apidea.jpg
> 
> Multiple larvae in the cells and all the eggs on the bottom of the cell.
> That's another old wives tale about laying workers always leaving the eggs on the side of the cell.


Interesting on two counts ... firstly that there must be something that triggers laying workers that usually isn't present in a queenless hive (where 2/3 weeks without a queen isn't unusual). I know the scale is bigger and they might be being missed, but maybe it's something to do with the bees being largely young 'uns in a mating nuc, with no old foragers to balance things up.  

Interesting also that none of the text below your photo - old wives tale etc - appeared in the original post viewed on my iPad via Safari, but is in this reply. Just off to see whether its there in Tapatalk ... what else might I have been missing?

EDIT... It's there in Tapatalk. There must be some weird HTML or something for Safari to ignore it. Over to Guru Gavin ...

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## Jon

I added another couple of lines 2 minutes after making the original post!

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## fatshark

D'oh!

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## drumgerry

Is that French for something?! :Wink:

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## mbc

> My mininucs already have virgins in them so won't be queenless for long.
> 
> I'll time having the new batch of sealed queen cells with the now hatched queens in my mininucs being in lay and ready to go into nucs (as you've done with your ESBA1 colony).  I'm aiming at grafting the week after next so they'll be ready for the Apideas 10 or 11 days later which gives my current mininuc virgins a couple of weeks plus to get mated and laying.  If they aren't I'll be fairly ruthless in getting rid of them (except your two Gavin!) to clear the way for the next round.
> 
> Hopefully it'll all work out!


IMHO a bit overly optimistic on the time it takes between the virgin hatching, mating and going into lay.  There is clear evidence that leaving the harvesting of queens until there is some sealed brood from them gives them a better chance of being accepted, and in my experience this can take nearly a full month from emergence.

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## Jon

> There is clear evidence that leaving the harvesting of queens until there is some sealed brood from them gives them a better chance of being accepted, and in my experience this can take nearly a full month from emergence.


MBC
I remember posting that link on here. The evidence was very clear  - and the optimum age of the queen was something like 28 days from emergence. At a minimum you should wait until some brood is sealed. Queens removed too early from apideas are often superseded within a month.

Link is here. Rhodes and Denney

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## The Drone Ranger

Where are they going after the apidea is it a de-queened hive or a queenless nuc ?
If they went above a swarm board there will only be young bees there 
The queen rearing season is so short no wonder you end up having to buy so many Apideas

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## mbc

> MBC
> I remember posting that link on here. The evidence was very clear  - and the optimum age of the queen was something like 28 days from emergence. At a minimum you should wait until some brood is sealed. Queens removed too early from apideas are often superseded within a month.
> 
> Link is here. Rhodes and Denney


Top marks  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

Sorry guys I've maybe not been very clear  :Smile:  .   The current occupants bar two of my Apideas are virgin queens I'm not especially attached to  - they're grafts from one of my queens and although their temper is (or has been) good they have many qualities I don't like - going on the queens I raised from her last year.

So yes I have read of the waiting till there's sealed brood in the mininuc before introduction method.  And ideally that's what I'd do.  But as I'm likely going to have a batch of more desirable candidates following on behind and needing the mininucs the first lot are going to have to go somewhere and I'm going to make some nucs up using them.  A purely practical consideration that's all.  I will consider requeening the nucs with the second batch of queens (who will get a full period in the Apideas) depending on how it all goes.  I appreciate the complexities of doing that but I've found the Manley or is it Alley-Chantry cage (the one in Honey Farming) a practically fool-proof method of requeening.

I'm going to suck it and see!  

Btw - Thanks for all the great info.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry

Here's a pic of the push in cages I have used successfully when I know I won't get a second chance
IMGP0662.jpg
what you are trying for is an area with sealed brood,empty cells and honey
If the queen was a drone layer there wont be any brood but it still works
When you push the cage into the comb it breaks into the honey the queen can feed herself
Almost always she will go straight to the honey
When the nearly hatching brood emerge they find they are with the new queen
The bees outside the cage will feed the queen after a little while 
Experts say leave it a week but I have a look and if it is calm I think 4 or 5 days is long enough
They are just black coated wire mesh for varroa floors
The sides are about 1" deep 
I haven't used the alley cage that might be a better method 
https://workspaces.acrobat.com/?d=7Y...TcqNb1iH6gG9KQ
somebody scanned Snelgroves book "the introduction of queen bees" bit long winded but heres the link  :Smile:

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## Black Comb

I'mplanning to transport some nearly ready to emerge to an out apiary.
I have a piece of packaging polystyrene which hopefully will keep them warm and upright.
What size holes to drill? 10mm?

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## Jon

If they are within 48 hours of emergence they will travel fine in your pocket with the roller cages on to protect them.
The critical period is the 4 days after the cell is sealed as this is when the larva is pupating and is very sensitive to temperature change or general rough treatment. A day before emergence the queen is soft but fully formed and is well protected inside the cell.

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## Black Comb

Thanks Jon.

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## Jon

I often move queen cells about on my bicycle!
Last year I attended a 2 hour allotment meeting in between leaving the association apiary and arriving home.
I had 3 cells in my pocket and all of the queens emerged fine and dandy the next day.
They really are quite hardy coming up to emergence date.

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## fatshark

In my usual cackhanded manner I dropped two before adding them to mini-nucs a week ago ... one from about 5' or so (don't ask). They emerged just fine.

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