# Beekeepers beekeeping > Scottish Beekeepers Association >  Agm/egm 2014

## gavin

The SBA's AGM was held in Perth today.  I'd have given you live updates only it seemed rude sitting down the front typing into a Blackberry while folk spoke to the assembled masses.

At the EGM before the AGM the results of the ballot on the dissolution of the old SBA and the formation of a new SCIO-compliant SBA was revealed.  Not even the President knew the outcome until he opened an envelope in front of us all.  An impressive 61% of the membership responded and overwhelmingly voted yes.  Now the Executive will submit their new constitution to the charity regulator, OSCR, and see whether or not they agree it meets the requirements.  

Yes:    781
No:    32
Spoiled and ineligible (late) papers: 17

Main points from the AGM:

- Phil McA came to the end of his three year term and handed over the Presidency to Bron.  
- Tony Harris takes over from Bron as secretary
- Alan Riach is now Vice-President
- I'm back as Bee Health guy
- Phil Moss will take over editorship from Nigel in July
- the Northen Area Rep position is now vacant.

It was a professional and respectful meeting without any of the rancour of the 2013 AGM. Great to see everyone pulling in the same direction.

Some other things that emerged during the day.  Magnus is trying to organise the Scottish participation in a citizen science project related to the European project COLOSS via the University of Gratz.  An estimate of the diversity of pollen bees are collecting across Europe.  Ewan from Aberdeen University gave us an update on progress with a new approach to Varroa treatment using RNAi, knocking out essential genes very specifically in Varroa.  We also discussed some recent activity from some bee entrepreneurs, sadly, so we heard, people who have got into beekeeping enterprise without knowing enough about beekeeping themselves yet who are placing hives in various sensitive locations and encouraging more people into beekeeping without being able to offer adequate support.  No, I'm not saying who they are or what was said by whom, but it was pointed out that the SBA should be more proactive trying to protect people from inappropriate activity related to beekeeping.  There was also discussion of the issues some local associations face with the tide of new beekeepers and the shortage of experienced beekeepers to help them raise their game.

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## snimmo243

Hi Gavin 
Thanks for the report, the slightly cryptic part about experience and New beekeepers is very pertinent (and has been touched on in a couple of threads here). I would be interested to hear if there were concrete plans for the proactiveness of the SBA on this matter? I know in my area of one such venture

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## gavin

No, there was an appeal from a member, one that I disagreed strongly with at the last AGM, that the SBA should not be so quiet on this.  I heartily agree, and told him so and thanked him during the break.  Most people on here would have been surprised to see that!

One local association in the area of one of these entrepreneurs has had some interesting interactions with them that revealed very clearly that they don't know what they are doing (other than being very good at attracting funding) and were making claims of collaboration with local beekeepers that were just not true.  A large amount of public funding has gone in that direction and folk are unsure what has come out of that.  

It is a difficult issue, this one of trying to reverse the tide of people jumping on bandwagons apparently to make money.  Funders, politicians, media, the public have all bought into this business of the bees dying, so they are all susceptible to well-presented stuff about 'doing good' even when it is unlikely to achieve that.  

Letters to the magazine, approaches to SBA office bearers, these are the sorts of things that might prompt some action from the SBA.  It is, of course, very difficult to make accusations of people running businesses, but the SBA and indeed local associations could be issuing general warnings about commercial activity that does not seem to involve established beekeepers or beekeeping organisations.

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## gavin

I should never post that early on a Sunday!  Missed the point completely.  Doh! Right, I've had some coffee, experienced and beginner beekeepers.

Alan Riach did reply that the SBA is aware of this and has introduced an Intermediate part of the education schedule, but I think that the issue is the dearth - in some areas - of experienced beekeepers able and willing to pass on their skills to people who are now beekeepers but with a lot to learn.

There was talk of developing teaching materials appropriate to Scotland rather than the Course in a Case which seems to have had a mixed reception.  Maybe I just should have piped up and said: 'Send them to SBAi!!' 

The whole issue is plagued with problems.  In some places little history of association visits to each other's apiaries, one of the best ways of spreading knowledge and allowing people to compare the good and the bad locally.  Many experienced beekeepers can't be bothered wasting time teaching newbees (and why should they?!).  Where there are experienced beekeepers sometimes they've been alienated by things done in the past.  Association apiaries set up against their wishes (worried that their influence may wane?).  Imports of non-native bees into association apiaries when that was totally unacceptable to them.  That sort of thing.

I should also repeat that having experience doesn't necessarily mean that the experience is worth passing on.  You quite often get bad advice from people with a lot of experience.  How do you filter that?

So what's to be done?  That was an appeal from the South of Scotland Beekeepers Association, so if you've got good ideas or have seen some in action, please let's hear them.  There are representatives of SSBA reading here, and our Education Convener stops by too from time to time (and can be pointed here if there is useful discussion).

G.

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## gavin

> ...... but the SBA and indeed local associations could be issuing general warnings about commercial activity that does not seem to involve established beekeepers or beekeeping organisations.


I'm talking to myself now.  That approach would have hit these people:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/loc...-award-1.40284

.. which would have been completely wrong!  There were inexperienced yet they approached and were given help by both a prominent poster on here and myself, they became very good beekeepers very quickly, and they eked out a small grant or two on very low wages.  There were no clear links to beekeeping organisations and no beekeeping qualifications.  This is a really tricky issue.

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## Jon

Gav. I am in NI rather than Scotland but we have similar issues to contend with here.
My opinion is that our bee exam system is not fit for purpose as it is all about lists and bee facts with a negligible component on beekeeping skills.
Ruary will likely read this and shoot me down but I have been really surprised at the lack of practical skills in people who have passed the exams. That's not the fault of the new beekeepers. They do what is asked of them but they are just not taught or asked to demonstrate a lot of practical stuff. (Microscopy excepted!)
Beekeeping is a practical hobby so surely the teaching and development of skills should be top priority.
It is not unusual here to find that the senior beekeepers in their 70s have never mastered the basics such as swarm control, finding, marking and clipping queens, or queen rearing and some of them are really poor handlers as well.
Some of them are the apiary managers presumably due to seniority rather than skills.
A couple of weeks ago one of the other allotment holders came over to me and said he was thinking of keeping a bee hive on his plot.
He is a guy in his late 50s who has never kept bees and he planned to get the bees from a beekeeper friend in his 80s who said he could learn on the job.
The location of his plot is completely unsuitable. The combination of a total beginner starting up beekeeping with bees of unknown aggression levels while surrounded by people fills me with dread. I tried to steer him away from this course of action but people are filled with this 'save the bees' nonsense and can't see the downside.
I have seen quite a few novice beekeepers who have bought or been gifted really aggressive bees from the senior beekeepers.
I think that in an ideal world bees should be supplied through an association and this should be linked to mentoring. There should be a system in place to ensure quality of the bees supplied.

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## gavin

I think you'd be a great choice Kate.

This issue of training, experience, quality of beekeeping and beekeeping advice is not easy to get right.  I reacted yesterday in private when there was loose talk of restricting benefits to those - like me - without any formal beekeeping training.  And Jon is right, passing exams does not guarantee beekeeping competence, but I do believe that it helps, on average.  Definitely support the idea of an emphasis on the practical side.  Definitely support an enhanced effort in education to try to lift the quality of beekeeping in Scotland.  I've no idea how you can weed out poor advice when there are people out there (old and young, with or without qualifications) who you would think ought to know their craft well but confidently give out bad advice. 

And on the question of beginners getting truly awful bees from senior beekeepers - I've been there, done that myself.  Despite breeding from a calm, nice queen I sold one colony the year before last that was one of the nastiest I've seen when up to full size.  It isn't easy raising reliable stocks when you can't control the skies.  OK, it is worse when the recipient gets no support, and when the bees were already known to be foul, but you can't always get it right.

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## Jon

I am pro exams but I think the emphasis should be on practical skills rather than theory.

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## Trog

A lot of 'aggression' can be down to the way the bees are handled, too.  We learnt the craft in an association that had quite a few feisty colonies so learnt very quickly how to read the bees.  Amazing how bees that would 'follow' one day would be perfectly docile on another day.  Of course, not everyone has the leisure to come back another day if a gentle knock on the hive produces a discouraging tone from their ladyships but it saves a lot of hassle!

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## Bridget

Our new little association Speybeekeepers suffers from very few experienced beekeepers.  We have, one year from starting have 28 members and only Drumgerry has more than A couple of hives.  Most of us seem to have been at it about 2-3 years.  We know of a few experienced beekeepers in the area who have lost their colonies recently and have now given up.  It's tough on Gerry as the burden of answering all our questions falls on him.  We are trying to get folk enrolled in the basic beekeeping course and we now have funds to bring in speakers but of course beekeepers are busy in summer and don't want to flog up the A9 to speak to us.  We certainly don't have mentors for our beginners but we try to support each other if there are problems.   


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## busybeephilip

> the emphasis should be on practical skills rather than theory.


I for one entirely agree with you Jon.  I have tried several times at committee meetings to get Belfast to set up their own beginners beekeeping course. FG was all ready to go ahead and do this at Cultra before he gave up with the club  due to  obstacles from FIBKA supporters and our friends in greenmount.  Basically, it is already being done by yourself and alan at minnowburn on the beginners night, this could be structured into a course with certificate at the end, I'm sure it would be very popular and far more meaningful than the prelim course currently running

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## Jimbo

I have been tasked with delivering a Basic Beemaster Course this year which is going quite well. We  have 17 participants on the course. The course is split into 6 sessions with a practical weekend at the end of the course. The Basic Beemaster is designed for beekeepers who have kept bees for a few years so should be familiar with opening hives and looking inside. Instead of delivering all the sessions I recruited a number of older and experienced beekeepers. One of the things I noticed is the variety and quality of the delivery of the course. So at the AGM I suggested that the Education Committee look at something like a training for trainers course. It was pointed out that this had been done but very few people had taken up the offer, but if you look at the cost you can see why. It may be possible to run a simpler course based on the instructions in the course in a case on delivery and learning outcomes for the trainers.
The second suggestion would be for the SBA to produce a list of people who would be willing to travel to other associations to help deliver a session on a course ie people who have attended a trainers course. The list could be put in the Secretary handbook similar to the list of speakers willing to travel to associations

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## Kate Atchley

> The second suggestion would be for the SBA to produce a list of people who would be willing to travel to other associations to help deliver a session on a course ie people who have attended a trainers course. The list could be put in the Secretary handbook similar to the list of speakers willing to travel to associations


Good suggestion Jimbo. Maybe Gavin would take it to the committee?

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## Jon

It is a tricky issue though Jim as those who volunteer will not necessarily be the ones you would want beginners to get advice from.




> this could be structured into a course with certificate at the end, I'm sure it would be very popular and far more meaningful than the prelim course currently running


Phil
That could well be what develops, but those running it would need to be paid for their time as it would be a lot of work organising a course and supervising it.
Practical beekeeping needs to be run by good bee handlers and those who can teach the skills as opposed to people who hold the intermediate certificate or whatever.
There are people who hold the FIBKA intermediate cert who have had little or no exposure to bees or none at all in a few cases I know of.
Locally a load of people failed the exam last year so maybe the bar has been raised. 
Even so, there is still next to no practical element in it so I would say the exam is asking the wrong questions of those taking it.

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## brothermoo

It's been 4 years since my prelim and I was told at the end of it to go straight to intermediate.  But hands on is more important at this stage! Watching other beekeepers and listening to the advice of knowledgable practitioners is by far more important than exams, well at least the exams in the current system.

___________________________________
sent from my smartphone.. although it doesn't filter my not-so-smart comments

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## Ruary

> Ruary will likely read this and shoot me down but I have been really surprised at the lack of practical skills in people who have passed the exams. That's not the fault of the new beekeepers. They do what is asked of them but they are just not taught or asked to demonstrate a lot of practical stuff. (Microscopy excepted!)
> .


No, Jon, I won't shoot you down, I am equally appalled at the concentration on pure theory. I have argued that the Senior cycle of the Irish exams should be one part in a year with the microscopy section last. 
There have been arguments in Congress that changed the exam dates so that they would be taken as soon a possible after the various courses ended *so that the candidates would still have the facts clearly in their memories* I call that learning by rote.
The microscopy exam became more theoretical after I became one of the examiners, and I am proud of that achievement.

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## Jon

Phew! At least we wont fall out then.
Same as Gavin, I have never bothered much with the exam system as I cannot see much relevance to improving my beekeeping.
A few years ago I was interested in joining a senior study group but was told I would have to take preliminary and intermediate before I would be eligible so I was put off.
Times have changed since the arrival of google and knowing how to access the information you want is often more important than memorising facts.
The exams for me are like a timewarp back to GCSE biology in the 1970s where you had to memorise and draw diagrams of cells or alveolii or nephrons!

I think that the exams are totally devalued when you have beekeepers qualified at a senior level who cannot do basic practical beekeeping.
What is absent in many cases is the ability to read the colony - a topic covered by Dan Basterfield at Greenmount recently.

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## crabbitdave

Hi all having passed the basic exam last year, and am starting the intermediate this weekend, I found all the practical side very straight forward as I was only doing what I did every week, it was more the bee diseases and treatments I found a tricky, but I would say there are probably one of the most important things to know, is what to look for, when you never seen it before, as it effects not just you but your surrounding beekeeper, so theory has to be a big part of the exam, not that am any good at it as I work with my hands for living and I don't find studying very easy at all, but it does keep me out of the pub  :Smile: 


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## snimmo243

I don't think there is really all that much that can be done to stop someone from setting up their own association or venture and accessing public funds whether their intentions are honourable, misguided or nefarious. This does present problems in terms of beekeeping in general and our image/relationship with those around us. I know of at least one case where someone with extremely limited experience is offering beginners classes. Perhaps the structure of the sba, it's relationship with and nature of local associations could evolve to counter this? Maybe the sba could look into applications from New associations in closer detail? The other thing that strikes me is there doesn't seem to be any effort to collate records of stock numbers at local or national level. 

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## Jimbo

Hi snimmo. We do collect various bits of information from the members in our association like how many colonies do you have going into winter, how many colonies do you have in spring, what varroa treatments did you use, what was your honey crop etc. We have done this for a number of years and it makes quite interesting reading, example we experienced a 13% colony loss last year in our association but this year we are expecting a smaller percent. The honey crop last year averaged 30lbs per colony but the year before was a lot less etc. If all the SBA associations were asked to collect similar information and it was collated by the SBA it would give a better picture of the state of colonies in Scotland. I do know that the SBA do ask for various bits of information but apeal to the individual members to submit the information and not to the associations who may contain more accurate information.

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## drumgerry

In our SBA system I do think the Basic Beemaster has some benefits.  Focuses the mind, crystalises the knowledge etc.  I sat mine after some years of beekeeping and the best thing about it for me was getting to have a personal beekeeping session with the legend that is Ian Craig.

I moved on to sit Modules 1 and 2 and to be honest I was somewhat underwhelmed.  Module 2 in particular was a drag and an exercise in rote "learning" which I think has had no real lasting effect on my beekeeping.  I meant (and still mean to some time) to take Module 3 as I think there's some good stuff in there that I could do with being more familiar with but I'm a bit "meh"when it comes to the rest of them.  Sort of thinking all the stuff I'm doing around queen rearing and starting up with II has left the module stuff behind.

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## snimmo243

On the exams I am sitting the module 1 exam on Saturday and I've found the process of studying for it has encouraged me to delve deeper into various subjects

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## Easy beesy

Our branch runs study groups following the module syllabus but with the emphasis on learning and discussing not on taking the exam. Semi formal and all get to contribute.  Friendships form and buddy systems operate to practice techniques and cover holidays. We get to visit each other's bees

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## Easy beesy

Sorry - phone fingers!  We visit each other's bees and get experience of lots of colonies.

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## emcampbell

Thanks to the SBA for having me down again. Was nice to listen through the minutae of AGM business as well - even though I understood little of the nominating and seconding milarky. Well done to Phil for such a successful presidency and congratulations to Bron for taking up the hot seat  :Smile: 

I'll post a topic on our new joint PhD studentship between Scotgov, the SBA and Aberdeen soon. Needless to say we are really chuffed with the funding and support. 

Big thank you to Fortingall BKA who had me along to Campserney to give a talk on Tuesday as well. I know a few of you were at the AGM in Perth so I hope you were not to bored with a repeat performance of my presentation.

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## Greengage

There is a huge amount of info on the site and im still playing catch up. This was an interesting discussion. As im New to beekeepingI agree there should be more practical examination rather than theory, but from those who know what there talking about as there can be a lot of misinformatoin, from those who think they know it all. Ive been at a workshop listening to an older chap who was giving his years of experience on how to do things while a couple of other knowalls who were also helping were sneering in the back ground, I would like to have spent a few hours at his apiary than a week with the others. As for the exams I also know a chap who is doing the intermediate exam next year,who has no bees and is full of advice, having said that the preliminary exam could have been passed without knowing anything or very little about bees.

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## Jon

GG.
The preliminary exam is fine as that is just a taster to see who is interested in beekeeping.
It's what happens after that where the problems start.

My advice in general would be to ignore the 'I have kept bees for 40 years' folk and just concentrate on what beekeepers are able to do or teach in terms of practical skills.
Some of the senior beekeepers have great knowledge to impart but others, ....well the less said the better.
In our Minnowburn group in Belfast I have noticed that some of the people in just their second or third year have far more skills than people who have been keeping bees for a long time.
Some of the older beekeepers have very fixed beliefs about bees and beekeeping which they like to pass on to newbies but the beliefs are just plain wrong.
There is a thread on this site somewhere titled myths in beekeeping which lists some of them.

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## Greengage

Jeez I found that thread, now what am I going to do, I should start another thread so you could explain some of these myths and point me where to find the right answers.Am I going to be brave enough to stand up at the next Beginners class and say stop this nonsense.  Robert Frost said: Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.

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