# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Maud bees

## Rosie

Does anyone here have any recent experience of the Maud strain bees?  Are there still any in their pure form and what are they like?  Should they be all black, are they prolific or not, are they gentle etc etc?

Thanks 

Steve

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## Jon

Are those the ones B Mobus used to work with?

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## Rosie

Yes that's my understanding.

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## drumgerry

I once (a goodly number of years ago) got a couple of colonies from a guy near Inverness who said they were descendants of Bernard Mobus' Maud strain - whether they were a decent representative of that strain I can't say.  That was in the days before I thought in any depth about the bees I kept and where they came from - my first couple of years of beekeeping were like that.  I'm ashamed to say that I put them into two top bar hives I'd made and neither colony made it through the winter.  While I had them I didn't notice them as being particularly gentle or having any other noticeably good or bad characteristics.  Never had them long enough though.  One thing was certain - they weren't suitable for those blasted TBHs and needless to say I've never put another bee in them.   The biggest regret I have in beekeeping is subjecting those bees to those hives.

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## drumgerry

Oh and Steve Polyhive is the man to speak to about the Maud bees as I believe he worked with Bernard.

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## Jon

Steve knows him I think

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## Rosie

> Steve knows him I think


I'd sooner speak to you lot if you don't mind. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Thanks Drumgerry.  I think top bar hives are great for Kenya.  I'll leave it at that because I don't want to start an argument.

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## gavin

Phew! Steve's still speaking to us after that. 

There's a long tale there. If only all imports heading for sensitive places went into Top Bar Hives.

Didn't some Maud bees find their way to Colonsay?  

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## Rosie

Does Andrew A watch this forum?

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## gavin

Yes, from time to time and on an if-i've-got-time-in-my-busy-schedule basis. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## drumgerry

Aye you'll not find someone who has less time for TBHs than me.  A hard lesson learned there. Although I believe Madasafish uses them with some success - good luck to him.

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## susbees

We tried up to six tbh and two tbh nucs for three years here. And don't any more. Even sheltered & insulated, fed the same if needed and monitored/treated for varroa (bit of a palaver) the colonies fared much worse than the Commercials - same apiary, sister queens. And the mice adored them...climb the nice angled legs and nip under the roof into the cuddly wuddly insulation. But at least not in the hive, eh...perhaps not but they could chew the corks.

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## madasafish

Top Bar hives are fine:
IF
1. You ignore the rubbish posted by the Natural Beekeepers of this world: mostly they live in places where any fool can overwinter bees in a hive that has holes in it and expect them to survive.  I did my research and amended the designs. and insulated.
2. You don't want much honey.
3. You like lots of hard work to get a little honey.

I am converting to Langstroth

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## mbc

> Top Bar hives are fine:
> IF
> 1. You ignore the rubbish posted by the Natural Beekeepers of this world: mostly they live in places where any fool can overwinter bees in a hive that has holes in it and expect them to survive.  I did my research and amended the designs. and insulated.
> 2. You don't want much honey.
> 3. You like lots of hard work to get a little honey.
> 
> I am converting to Langstroth


Lol.
Excellently summed up.

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## The Drone Ranger

I would be interested in the history of these maud bees if anyone has a bit of background on them

pigeon nest moved again by high wind both out of nest  but this time one has been eaten by something
put the other little chap back and added a few stabilising branches he/she seems ok

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## Jon

I would be as well as I can't get those images of French AMM arriving in Craibstone in the 1930s out of my head!
Look to be nice quiet bees.




Scroll to 1.05 for the package of 'abeilles vivantes'

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## The Drone Ranger

Good little video must have been before sound though

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## gavin

> Good little video must have been before sound though


I dunno - thought that I heard mains hum and some white noise.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I dunno - thought that I heard mains hum and some white noise.


I though that was the old camera noise like chaplain films  :Smile: 

This is a modern mini cine camera
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mobius-Pocke...+action+camera

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## drumgerry

Aren't the Maud bees a strain of AMM that was developed by Bernard Mobus?   And if so they post-date that video by some decades?  I'd like to know more about their history as well.

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## Jon

My guess is that Mobus worked with what he found there and improved it.
I doubt he brought bees with him from elsewhere as that ol' Bibba reluctance to move queens from one area to another goes back to the Beo Cooper era.
I would be curious to know if the descendents of those_ abeilles vivantes_ were in the mix.
They were AMM so probably acclimatised reasonably well.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My guess is that Mobus worked with what he found there and improved it.
> I doubt he brought bees with him from elsewhere as that ol' Bibba reluctance to move queens from one area to another goes back to the Beo Cooper era.
> I would be curious to know if the descendents of those_ abeilles vivantes_ were in the mix.
> They were AMM so probably acclimatised reasonably well.


Hi Jon 
When was B Mobus developing this strain of bees and where
Was wing scanning part of the selection at the time ?

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## Jon

Wing scanning would not distinguish a French AMM from a Scottish or Irish one.
Some types of DNA analysis would
Wing morphometry goes way back.
They used to project slides of mounted wings onto a wall and measure the angles with a thing called the 'bibba fan'.
I jest you not as Frankie Howard used to say!

Mobus was more or less mid 60s to late 80s I think.
Scotland was his territory, Craibstone area I think.
I own one book of his, Mating in miniature.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon
I think that area might have been very well hybridised by then 
A R Cumming and Margaret Logan writing in "Beekeeping Craft and Hobby" 1950
_"Choice of bees .. it is important to give some thought to the race and still more to the strain of bee to be used...
the British Black Bee was in common use all over the country (nice description follows) then...
This bee is now probably extinct as a as a pure breed although in some parts of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland the ordinary hybrid now used is probably three quarters Black. 
To replace the Black bee, Italians, Dutch, French and Carniolans were introduced, and most of our mongrel bees are now a mixture of many races Dutch and Carniolan bees are much like the old Blacks. They are docile and prolific but so much given to swarming that they are often unprofitable, French bees are frequently very vicious, but they are usually very good workers. Their tempers make them most unsuitable in apiaries near frequented places.
Italian bees of a good strain ..prolific..gentle..easily handled .. commonly kept by honey farmers an good Italian crosses are very strongly recommended.
Of late years, Caucasians, very gentle bees with grey instead of yellow bands have become very popular. An early tendency to use great quantities of propolis appears to have been bred out and Caucasians from a good breeder may well be chosen. It is, however, impossible for the amateur to keep a pure race over a period of years, and young pure bred queens should be bought in from time to time.
Most beginners will be well advised to procure bees bred in their own neighbourhood ...."_

Hope I haven't gone too far off topic here but the areas of Aberdeen and Inverness etc were very hybridised by imports right from the early 1900's onwards and the French bees seem to have have a reputation for bad temper.

The statement by Cummings that  "it is impossible for the amateur to keep a pure race" shows how hybridised the area was
B. Mobus would not have fallen into the amateur category though

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## Jon

The French bees in the video looked quiet enough judging by the beekeepers prototype Sheriff suit and Trilby.
Hard to know if there is any research behind the comment 'the bee is now probably extinct as a pure breed' or perhaps the author was just propagating the myth spread by Brother Adam to suit his/her own agenda.
Dutch bees would have been AMM as well and would have been quite dissimilar genetically to Carniolans.
The author likely drew a false conclusion re. similarity as they are both dark bees.
Carnica and Ligustica are much more closely related even though the abdomen colours are different.




> The statement by Cummings that "it is impossible for the amateur to keep a pure race" shows how hybridised the area was


That would be more accurate if it stated that it is impossible for a beekeeper working on his own to keep a pure race. (Unless you are the single beekeeper on Colonsay)

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## greengumbo

> Wing scanning would not distinguish a French AMM from a Scottish or Irish one.
> Some types of DNA analysis would


Are you talking microsats here Jon ? The mitochondrial analysis seems good to get them to AMM (or at least AMM or AM Iber...). What microsat regions can distinguish french /scottish / irish ? Has that been done yet ?

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## Jon

The Jensen and Pedersen paper covered some of this stuff.

Varying degrees of Apis mellifera ligustica introgression in protected populations of the black honeybee, 
Apis mellifera mellifera, in northwest Europe

My reading of the paper is that any AMM population has a huge amount of natural variation within it irrespective of the jurisdiction.
ie, trying to distinguish a French AMM from a Scottish or Irish one would not be straightforward.

There is a  COLOSS/IBRA paper just out, Meixner et al, which does an overview of methods of distinguishing between subspecies.

Standard methods for characterising subspecies and ecotypes of Apis mellifera

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## greengumbo

Hi Jon - yeah I've been reading those two on and off for a while now. I just wondered if I had missed a specific marker that would distinguish a French AMM from a Scottish or Irish AMM but I think it would be more an analysis of the microsat data rather than a simple "yes its irish or no its french". 

The Meixner paper (as well as the whole BEEBOOK !) is great.

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## The Drone Ranger

There was a lot of typing involved but I didn't want to change what was written because it shows how very influential bee keepers from the area were thinking at the time.
Cummings was the president of the Inverneshire beekeeping association Margaret Logan was a lecturer in beekeeping at The North of Scotland Agricultural College
They are always just opinions at the end of the day but they give a general impression that hybrids were the norm and buying in queens was considered a good thing.
Also that even in those areas of Scotland the Italian bee was the commercial beekeepers chosen breed an consequently new beekeepers were being rcomended that part Italian crosses were good bees to have
Often beekeeping books are written with the South of England as the focal point 
I have a few where the East of Scotland is the authors area of expertise

Anyway thats a side issue wonder why there is no information forthcoming about the Maud bees ?
They might have their origins elsewhere

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## Peter

[QUOTE=Jon;22325]
They used to project slides of mounted wings onto a wall and measure the angles with a thing called the 'bibba fan'.

Actually a Herold fan - not invented by BIBBA. See: http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cus...asurement.html

Our chairman jokes that he has a bald spot because of the hours spent in front of a high powered projector measuring wings by this method.

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## Jon

Deafening silence about the maud bees. Someone must know something.

GG. From the Jensen paper P102.



> The analysis failed to detect a clear phylogeographical pattern of
> the Scandinavian, British, Belgian and French populations
> of A. m. mellifera, irrespective of whether introgression
> of A and C-haplotypes was taken into account (Fig. 5a)
> or not (Fig. 5b). This is because the extant A. m. mellifera
> populations mostly have the same spectrum of haplotypes,
> consistent with a fairly recent common ancestry (Garnery
> et al. 1998a).


ie, if the common ancestry is recent you would not easily be able to distinguish one AMM population from another.

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## greengumbo

> Deafening silence about the maud bees. Someone must know something.
> 
> GG. From the Jensen paper P102.
> 
> 
> ie, if the common ancestry is recent you would not easily be able to distinguish one AMM population from another.


Yeah that was my understanding as well.

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## The Drone Ranger

Off topic again so cut

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## Jon

Re. Mobus and the maud bees:
This presentation is elsewhere on the Sbai site.

But the last slide is where we really want it to start!!

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## Jimbo

If you look at the presenters note on slide 14 of the presentation John mentions that the bees found in Peebles were from Bernard Mobus Maud bees

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## Jon

Mobus was a copious record keeper. There must be masses of information somewhere.

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## The Drone Ranger

They must be gone otherwise somebody would have come along saying they were continuing the breeding ?

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## Poly Hive

Well maybe I can contribute to this thread in a bit of detail. 

Before I start I had a phone call tonight from the far south alerting me to this thread, I assume that some of the posters are aware of my site and that I can be contacted via there. www.poly-hive.co.uk

I am starting with the film. I took the film and had it put on DVD, as far as I know it was NOT filmed at Craibstone, but it was shown as part of the then SBA Expert course which Bernard ran. To give a glimpse of the mans abilities it went like this. Friday 7pm to 9-30. Saturday 9am to 9pm. Sunday same. Monday afternoon exam. Bernard apart from the odd film lectured the whole time. Personally I find it hard on the voice box to lecture for two hours. I thought the film deserved a wider audience so posted it on youtube  so it sits there generating many positive comments, and probably has had more views now then it ever had on 16mm. 

Maud queens. Bernard told me it was a queen he found in the village of Maud in Aberdeenshire and it was a colony which deeply impressed him. Believe me right now and here that it took a great deal to impress that man. When Bernard was forced to retire by the college I took on Craibstone, and the Maud strain, and his bees too. I bought 14 colonies from him. At the time Hamish Robertson was also running AMM and doing very well off their backs for all of that. My best result was (I hate to admit this but for veracity) the best crop I ever had was 320lbs of honey from a timber National. I would love to say otherwise but I have to be honest. The best Mauds were excellent. Any aspect you can think off they were up to or surpassed. However they had two critical weaknesses, which Bernard freely acknowledged. They were susceptible to Nosema and were not the best at over wintering. On the plus side they were excellent at superceding on the heather and their comb honey won me more than a few prizes of a red hue. 

Sadly after I left Craibstone life got in the way of beekeeping and my last colonies some 15 or so were burnt by a farmer I curse daily. 

So there you are that is what happened, and yes they were true AMM I did hundreds of wing measurements to prove it at at the time using the most modern methods available at the time. 

Paper work. Not sure who wants what but there was very little that I found. On the other hand what was lost/ignored by the college was priceless. The original slides by Rennie? If that means nothing then I suggest some reading on Acarine. Bernard was doing his work when I knew him first in 1986 on a computer and when I took over at Craibstone in 1998 it had gone with him so it must have be literally a PC. 

I hope this clears some of the historical fog. 

PH



PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...my last colonies some 15 or so were burnt by a farmer I curse daily.  ...


Deliberately?

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## Poly Hive

Yes. Not going to discuss as still very painful. 

PH

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## Jimbo

Thanks Polyhive for the information. Do you know if any of the Craibstone material went to the Moir? There is also speculation that a lot of the Maud strain were sent to various parts of Scotland ie North of Scotland and Peebles do you have any knowledge of this?

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## Poly Hive

Bernard raised cells on a pretty large scale and I know for sure that batches in the 100's went to Bert Mason at St Cycrus. I took queens to the post office myself and they were going all over. I cannot say one way or the other about Peebles though Moira Stokley may well know about that. Queens certainly went to Conon Bridge that I do know for a fact. When John Stokley hosted the BIBBA event the heid yins fae doon sooth were amazed by the wing measurements. I had bees that were off the scale on the negative side, then they left and that was that. Very disappointing as we had hoped John and I to be a northern base for them.

Moir. Not that I know of, Bernard took his stuff away and I took over and when I left I left it as I found it. What the college has done with the historical stuff (kit I mean not papers) in the loft I dread to think. I honestly do not think they know what they have and are blissfully unaware of the slides re Acarine. 

PH

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## Jimbo

Funny how history repeats itself. We had some BIBBA committee visit us a number of years ago when we showed them some wing results from our local bees. we were new to this morphometry thing and wanted their opinion on the results. One comment I always remember was we had starting results that some BIBBA members down south would love to have and been trying to breed their bees for years to get similar results

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## Poly Hive

Precisely. A very odd mind set indeed. My experience was that they had their theories proven in Scotland and couldn't wait to get back to their comfort zone down south and back to playing again. 

PH

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## Jon

The problem is that there is a considerable element within Bibba who think it is wrong to move bees around the British Isles, which makes it difficult for most people to acquire a good queen to start grafting from. That is one of the main sources of Frustration for many.

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## Poly Hive

The massive problem that BIBBA has and historically has is they love playing secret squirrel. Dave Cushman despaired of their communications, and he offered times to set up a forum for them and the answer was always no. I myself see no issues in moving native bees from  one part to another. There is a huge difference between localised and native. The main complaint and it has been discussed over the years on several forums is that there is no source of AMM to be had. I tried a couple which had been imported to get a start again I thought but they were frankly rubbish and I am not even positive that they were AMM. And so it goes on. 

PH

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## James O

> I am starting with the film. I took the film and had it put on DVD, as far as I know it was NOT filmed at Craibstone, but it was shown as part of the then SBA Expert course which Bernard ran. To give a glimpse of the mans abilities it went like this. Friday 7pm to 9-30. Saturday 9am to 9pm. Sunday same. Monday afternoon exam. Bernard apart from the odd film lectured the whole time. Personally I find it hard on the voice box to lecture for two hours. I thought the film deserved a wider audience so posted it on youtube  so it sits there generating many positive comments, and probably has had more views now then it ever had on 16mm.


PH

Can you supply a link to the Mobus video please? I've looked on your website, searched youtube with mobus, craibstone, poly hive etc, found your channel TheShenachie but can't find the Mobus video.

Thanks

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## Rosie

> The problem is that there is a considerable element within BIbbA who think it is wrong to move bees around the British Isles, which makes it difficult for most people to acquire a good queen to start grafting from. That is one of the main sources of Frustration for many.


Jon it dismays me to hear you say this.  It is true that some BIBBA members don't like parachuting bees around but others are trying strenuously to encourage people to ship their queens to less fortunate areas.  BIBBA's current chairman and, to be fair to him to last one too, were/are both committed to this and you can't get higher than that at BIBBA.  The problem is that the ones with the purest bees can't or will not release sufficient numbers to satisfy the huge demand for them.

Galtee group used to be particularly good at this and are an important and influential part of BIBBA.  They acknowledge the help of other BIBBA groups in helping them to set up in the first place.  Now they find it difficult to continue to supply bees because of red tape but others are actively trying to get their bees up to the stage where they can step forward to help fill the demand.

BIBBA is only as good as its groups at the end of the day and some of those who carp (I don't include Jon here because I am well aware of the excellent work he is doing) have or have had some of the purest bees but prefer to moan about others rather than do something constructive.  Fortunately we have some keen and energetic new groups springing up in Scotland and elsewhere.  They seem to have a much healthier attitude as well as enthusiasm and drive and it fills me with confidence for the future.

Steve

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## Poly Hive

http://poly-hive.co.uk/recourses/beg...0s-beekeeping/

It is an interesting video though does not feature Bernard. 

PH

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## Jon

> It is true that some BIBBA members don't like parachuting bees around but others are trying strenuously to encourage people to ship their queens to less fortunate areas.  BIBBA's current chairman and, to be fair to him to last one too, were/are both committed to this and you can't get higher than that at BIBBA.


Steve, I appreciate things are changing but there are still mixed messages coming out. Bibba should clarify its position and put out a clear policy statement on the website and in the magazine. If this has already been done, apologies for I have missed it.

We have some of the same issues in NIHBS over issues like wing morphometry, but have set up a science committee to try and clarify them. Once a policy has been agreed, individuals will have to sign up to it and show collective responsibility.
Nothing worse than a loose cannon or two undermining the good work being done at committee level.

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## Rosie

That might be a fair comment Jon but remember that BIBBA just wants to help native and near native bees.  They are happy for their members to support these bees in any way they feel appropriate for their area and expertise. If that message is not getting across I will try to address it.

Steve

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## Peter

[QUOTE=Jon;22517]We have some of the same issues in NIHBS over issues like wing morphometry, but have set up a science committee to try and clarify them.

Hi Jon

What are the issues that you have with wing morphometry?

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## Jon

Whether it coincides with underlying DNA.
That's not a given.
The science needs to be checked out rather than everyone adopting entrenched positions.

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## Peter

> Whether it coincides with underlying DNA.
> That's not a given.
> The science needs to be checked out rather than everyone adopting entrenched positions.


Have you read this one:
http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Stan...Apis-mellifera

Particularly in section 3:

'A high degree of consistency between wing morphometry and molecular information
has been demonstrated by Miguel et al. (2010).'

Has this work already been done?  Has BIBBA wasted and are NIBHS wasting money on research by not doing the homework?

I suspect that Gavin may appear quite soon!

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## James O

> http://poly-hive.co.uk/recourses/beg...0s-beekeeping/
> 
> It is an interesting video though does not feature Bernard. 
> 
> PH


Thanks, saw those but didn't realise that was what I was looking for.

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## Jon

> Have you read this one:


Peter I have posted a link to that Meixner Coloss paper here at least twice in the last fortnight!

I think you might have the wrong end of the stick about that Miguel paper. That paper is mainly looking at the differences between Apis mellifera iberensis and African bees.




> ABSTRACT Traditional morphometrics, allozymes, and mitochondrial data have supported a close relationship between the M branch subspecies
> A. m. iberiensis and the North African subspecies (A branch). However, studies using nuclear DNA markers have revealed a clear distinction
> between the latter and the two European M branch subspecies. In help resolve this paradox, we analyzed 663 colonies from six
> European and African subspecies. A geometric morphometrics approach was applied to the analysis of wing shape, and the results
> were compared with data of six microsatellite loci. Both data sets were found to be highly consistent and corroborated a marked
> divergence of West European subspecies from North African ones. This supports the hypothesis that the presence of the African
> lineage mitotype in Iberian honey bee populations is likely the consequence of secondary introductions, with a minimal African
> influence within the current Iberian genetic background. Wing geometric morphometrics appears more appropriate than mitochondrial
> DNA analysis or traditional morphometrics in the screening and identification of the Africanization process.


The problem with wing morphomety is the effect described by Robin Moritz in the paper I linked to last week.

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## Rosie

Thanks for reminding us of this Peter.  I will have to read it properly when I have more time but on scanning it quickly I spotted this:

"Most interestingly, in recent comprehensive analyses based on nuclear markers (SNPs), and including representative samples of 14 subspecies (Whitfield et al., 2006), the resulting groupings largely reflected the traditional four lineages postulated on the basis of morphology."

It seems that early DNA work threw doubt on morphometry but later studies reversed it so that it now largely supports morphometry.

SNPs is the method that Bangor University told me they were employing in their search for the ideal Welsh bee but I don't know much about their results or even whether they stuck to their original intention of looking for good AMM specimens.  We amateurs in the area are sticking with morphometry and behaviour for now as we don't have resources to use DNA methods.

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## Peter

> The problem with wing morphomety is the effect described by Robin Moritz in the paper I linked to last week.


Hi Jon

Apologies - I have not had much time to read everything carefully recently - and have saved a number of papers for reading later.

So now I must ask: has Moritz already done the research that BIBBA are currently funding?

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## Jon

Moritz found that the carnica population in Germany which has 'perfect' carnica wing vein pattern is not in fact pure Carnica and has AMM genetics in it as well.
This Moritz paper is critical as it explains the limitations of using morphometry.

Morphometry is a powerful tool for a survey in an area where noone has used it as part of the selection criteria but once it has been used you are going to get the sought after wing pattern irrespective of the underlying DNA.

Moritz suggests
(a) abandoning wing morphometry altogether or (b) switching to different morphometric variables every couple of years. There are more than 30.

Read the para on P58 about biometrical analysis.

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## Rosie

Jon I don't see that as a criticism of wing morphometry.  It just demonstrates that it's unwise to rely on it solely for too many generations.  I don't know anyone who does anyway that even if they did in the past.  In fact most strains have never been assessed let alone, selected.

Steve

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## Jon

But the problem is that those of us who are interested in bee breeding and bee improvement are the people routinely using wing morphometry.
From earlier comments in the thread, it's clear that wing morphometry has been used by Bibba people since the 1970s at least so there could well be a selection artifact at this stage.
My position on wing morphometry is neither for nor against, but I would like further clarification as that Moritz paper does throw up a lot of doubts. Germany has one of the best organised bee improvement programmes in the world and they use wing morphometry as part of the selection process and it clearly has not been good enough for the breeders to distinguish Carnica from Carnica hybrids. This is all spelled out really clearly in the paper.
Germany is light years ahead of the UK in terms of bee breeding yet they fell into this trap with the selection artifact.
Could UK breeders be making the same mistake?

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## Rosie

They should not have been using wing morphometry alone.  It would be daft to breed poodles by measuring tail length only.  You don't need to be a scientist or wait for a scientific paper to know that it takes lots of behavioural and morphometric assessments to judge breeding stock.  Peter will speak for himself but, despite being a wing advocate his slection programme or "studbook" is well known and recommended by BIBBA.  He uses over 20 assessment criteria of which wing morphometry is just one.  I also know that you, Jon, don't rely too heavily on wing morphometry.

Steve

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## Jon

> I also know that you, Jon, don't rely too heavily on wing morphometry.


Hi Steve
I take samples and keep the data but I am not sure how much it tells me other than indicating the odd colony is more heavily hybridised than it would appear on the basis of colour.
If I see yellow banded workers I don't need to look at wings to know the queen has mated with some yellow drones.

I remember you posting a scattergram on the old bbka forum which was a high percentage AMM scattergram but you indicated that the bees were mainly yellow.
I find it hard to see how a sample which is obviously hybridised (yellow) could have a high percentage AMM scattergram.
This applies even more so in areas where the background population is mixed such as West Sussex where Roger does his bee improvement. How could you get high percentage AMM scattergrams from an area like that without there being a selection artifact in play? It is not possible to unmix the genetics and get back to AMM from a population like that but it is clearly possible to end up with high percentage AMM scattergrams.
A dark bee may be Apis mellifera mellifera but could in fact be a hybrid.
A yellow worker is categorically not AMM and must be a hybrid (or a pure Ligustica or a Buckfast)

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## Rosie

> I find it hard to see how a sample which is obviously hybridised (yellow) could have a high percentage AMM scattergram.


Why can't the genetics a bee has taken from ligusta affect colour and not wings?  Of the millions of alleles a bee carries who can predict which ones will appear in a hybrid?  I still struggle with yellowness in my bees although I do get the occasional completely black colony.  It only tells me that there is some other race in there but it does not tell me how much.  They could be much purer than my neighbour's black bees that have a small amount on carnica in them.  In fact I am always suspicious of totally black bees because the ones who's wings I have tested have always had a large spread on the scattergram stretching well up into the carnica range.  Dave Cushman once told me that a bee can be almost pure AMM and still have yellow colouring.  

I only became proficient at wing morphometry about 4 years ago and until then was not using it at all and neither was the person I originally bought my bees from and he had obtained the strain about 45 years ago.  They had obviously never been selected using wings and still showed good wings and poor colouring.  However, their behaviour has consistently been about right - especially their winter feed consumption which usually works out at about 12 pounds although I try to get their stores up to about twice that so they have a good margin.

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## The Drone Ranger

I wonder if readers might be interested in a chicken tail
The Dorking is an "ancient" breed brought here by the Romans no less and always has 5 toes instead of the normal 4
No true Dorking will ever produce sons or daughters with any less (or more) than 5 toes
Anything starting to ring bells here ?

Heres a little description courtesy of Omlet.co who sell the hive of the same name

_"The Dorking is a breed of chicken that is believed to have originated in Italy during the period of the Roman Empire under the reign of Julius Caesar. They believed it was the purist breed as it had 5 claws. It was introduced to Great Britain where much of its development took place. It appeared in the very first British poultry show in 1845. It has always been prized for its white flesh and its eating qualities."_

Now there are a few "believed's" in there but in essence the claim of breeders is that the chicken has been around since the Roman times and the proof rests on it's 5 toes 
However the bird was shown in 1845 leaves me thinking well the Romans left in AD 410 or there about's   ??  can I believe they were kept as a pure breed all that time ??
I don't think so -- for starters they are not particularly good layers and as utility birds they would not stand the test of time.
Would people have kept them for their feathers 1000 years ago or their 5 toes not a chance

Yet there is a slim chance because flocks might form a closed population so that means the claim can't be refuted
Only the most naive of us would accept that possibility

Viking graves, wings, isolated populations since the 8th Century Vikings or (sometimes claiming since the Ice Age) all very innocent but unlikely fun
We have no idea what those bees were like well over 1000 years ago so any claims about them are really about much more recent bees 
So fine let's have  AMM bees but let's not make claims for them that they are the original bees of Britain and were wonderful no-one has any idea what they might have been like.
I would like Maud bees please wherever they came from  :Smile:

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## Jon

> So fine let's have  AMM bees but let's not make claims for them that they are the original bees of Britain and were wonderful no-one has any idea what they might have been like.


There is plenty of evidence that they are the original (native) bees of Britain.
More difficult to vouch for their character several thousand years ago.

Are honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) native to the British Isles?
Norman L. Carreck1*.
Journal of Apicultural Research and Bee World 47(4): 318–322 (2008)

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## Pete L

> I would like Maud bees please wherever they came from


Their ancestors could well of been parachuted in from France fifty years earlier.

 Good chicken story.

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## Rosie

Dorkings were kept for their meat, not their eggs and excelled at producing quality carcases.

All that has nothing to do with wild creatures like bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Dorkings were kept for their meat, not their eggs and excelled at producing quality carcases.
> 
> All that has nothing to do with wild creatures like bees.


What are Dorkings kept for now though Steve?, I would say it's only for their looks 

Here's a modern chicken 
True it's a cross, and line bred so you won't be able to breed from them or even produce your own but they are productive and long lived.

https://www.omlet.co.uk/breeds/chick...gernut+ranger/

_The Gingernut Ranger is a prolific egg layer and lays large brown eggs. They are placid, friendly and inquisitive. They are also exceptionally easy to tame and will follow you around when you are in the garden. They are hardy birds who are very happy free ranging and love to forage. They make excellent pets for children due to their gentle nature and friendliness.
Varieties

The plumage of the Gingernut Ranger is rich red with either black or white tail feathers
_  :Smile: 

Here the emphasis is on productivity not feathers or toes I guess

Are bees truly wild ? I think not, otherwise there would be no bee improvement over the hundreds of years.
I think beekeepers might have been more concerned with how they performed than the colour or their appearance
Possibly they have always been gentle and allowed humans to poke around in the hives but I doubt it

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## Jon

I would be wary of an egg which is placid, friendly and inquisitive.
That is not what you expect from an egg.

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## The Drone Ranger

It's the eggs which float that you need to watch

Is anybody going to offer me some Maud bees ?
Who is hording them all ?
I have remote controls for TV's I haven't owned for the last 20 years ?
Why don't people look after their stuff ?
This is really the disposable society gone mad  :Smile: 
Maud Bees now gentlemen please !!

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## Black Comb

Apologies if I have missed this but can anyone tell me:-
1. Where is the genome (DNA) of the amm kept and who identified it?
2. Where did it come from? How do we know this is "real" amm?

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## Jimbo

Maud bees were Amm bees discovered in the village of Maud in Aberdeenshire by Bernard Mobus who subsquently bred from them as they were particulary good examples of Amm. The queens were then sent all over Scotland. This was before DNA and genomic techniques were easily available, however Polyhive has mentioned doing wing morphometry on the Maud bees. The influence of the Maud bees was also seen when John and Morna Stoakley did their survey in the late eighties to look for Amm areas in Scotland. (The results of this study can be viewed on the SBAi forum under the Fife bee breeding course). I also know that 10 Maud queens were sent Andrew on Colonsay when he was first setting up. He did have other Amm colonies at the time so the Colonsay bees are not exclusive Maud bees.(personal communication) After visiting Andrew this summer and seeing his Amm colonies I suspect that the Maud queens he got has influenced the nice bees he has today

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## drumgerry

> So fine let's have  AMM bees but let's not make claims for them that they are the original bees of Britain


If AMM weren't the original bees of Britain DR which was the original strain?  Or do you think the range of honeybees didn't extend to the British Isles?

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## Rosie

> Apologies if I have missed this but can anyone tell me:-
> 1. Where is the genome (DNA) of the amm kept and who identified it?
> 2. Where did it come from? How do we know this is "real" amm?


Good questions Black Comb.  I would be interested to know myself. I do know though that one person who probed too deeply some years ago (at the time of the Pederson study I believe) made himself extremely unpopular.  I have been hoping that the Project Discovery report might reveal such things but it seems to have been kicked into the long grass.  It sounds disloyal to say this but I sent my samples in about 5 years ago so it's a long time to have to wait.

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## The Drone Ranger

> If AMM weren't the original bees of Britain DR which was the original strain?  Or do you think the range of honeybees didn't extend to the British Isles?


FoFl nice bit of editing there Drumgerry here's the original line

So fine let's have AMM bees but let's not make claims for them that they are the original bees of Britain and were wonderful no-one has any idea what they might have been like.

On one occasion a chap questioned by police in his statement said " I did it because I was mad at him at the time "
In court it was read out by the police as -- when asked why he did it the accused said the "he was mad"
Same effect  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

I didn't quote that bit of the sentence DR because I agree with it.  Of course no one can actually *know* what characteristics the original indigenous bees of these islands displayed.  My suspicion is that what is described by the likes of Ruttner is not so far removed from those original bees because (unlike you I think but please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't believe we've had millenia of selective breeding of them.

What surprised me from your post was the bit I did actually quote - that we shouldn't claim AMM as the original bees of Britain.  I can't see any other likely candidates can you?

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## The Drone Ranger

Guilty M'Lud

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.honigbiene.ch/attachments...sis_Soland.pdf

Switzerland like Amm bees quite interesting read

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## Duncan

Is the dark colour of AMM dominant over the lighter coloured AML and Buckfast?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Is the dark colour of AMM dominant over the lighter coloured AML and Buckfast?


Hi Duncan
Nice to hear from you welcome to the forum 
Lots of bees are black but not Amm 
AMM crosses are most often stripey because of Italian bee genes
That would suggest colour is a combination of parents genetics
So one of the features AMM fans look for is even colouring dark brown or black
You can have caucasians or carniolans which are black as well so colour is not a reliable guide
I find bees tend to get more black down the generations in this area (presumably the local drones)
They don't have many AMM features though

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## prakel

> *I find bees tend to get more black down the generations in this area* (presumably the local drones) They don't have many AMM features though


This seems to be a common observation which I've also seen, also often noted in the States with reference to 'survivor' stock. Andrew Abrahams mentioned a claim that commercial bees left feral in the Australian bush tend to revert to the darker colouration in a period of ten years or so in the Bibba magazine; article on his trip to Tasmania.

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## Rosie

I wish my bees would go black on their own.  For me it's a constant struggle!

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## Jon

yellow coloration is dominant over black
Inheritance of colour patterns in the honeybee is governed by 3 major allelic genes
having their expression modified by 6-7 polygenes with alternative alleles for light
and dark - Jerzy Woyke

The link I had to the paper has gone dead but it may be elsewhere on the web

There is a thread about this on the forum somewhere but the bottom line is that if a pure black AMM queen mates with a yellow drone or two you will notice some yellow banding in the workers.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I wish my bees would go black on their own.  For me it's a constant struggle!


The ones round here might be becoming black but they won't be much like AMM,  more carni or caucasian I think  :Smile: 

Jon what colour would the drones be if your queen crosses with a yellow drone I'm expecting black ?

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## Jon

has to be black as the drones she produces have nothing to do with the sperm in her spermatheca.
I never see yellow drones in my own stock but I do get the odd colony with a lot of yellow banded workers.
These must come from the virgin queen dallying with a few yellow drones on the mating flight.

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## prakel

> The ones round here might be becoming black but they won't be much like AMM,  more carni or caucasian I think


Are many people using caucasians in your neck of the woods? Rarely here of them down here. Now, Carniolans, that's another matter!

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## Rosie

I often get the feeling that the genetics of black in carniolans is different in some way to the black in Amm.   It seems easy to keep carniolans black and I find I am suspicious of anything totally black in case the colour is coming from carniolans rather than Amm.  It could be that the genes that make carniolans black is more dominant than the ones that make Amms black.  Is that possible?

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## Jon

I don't think so Steve. It is fairly complicated genetics but the genes which control abdomen colour in carnica are going to be the same ones which control colour in AMM.
It was all in that Woyke paper.
I don't think anyone would have brought in the caucasian subspecies for a long time in NI
I have seen some very black and vicious colonies in my time, one of which I know had Carnica genetics in it as it had started out with a Carnica queen several years before.
This one, which was bought by a Friend for £250, completely emptied the box as soon as the crown board was lifted, coated every beekeeper within 50 feet and would follow for hundreds of yards.
It was terrifying. If you looked at the arm of your jacket later it was like a pincushion of stings.


What we still have in NI is older guys who are Buckfast afficionados who import queens, and new beekeepers who buy nucs from Fragile Planet, Easy bee and similar companies and they could be getting anything.
There is some Carnica genetics comes in via this route.

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## beejazz

I know nothing about genetics, but like listening to you all discussing the subject.  Why do wild bees revert to a darker abdomen?  What are the selective pressures, in wild/feral bees, that will determine the colour of a bees abdomen?   Can't be just a climate thing if it happens in US, UK, Australia.  Predation?  A lighter/stripier virgin may get ate if she is more visible?

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## Rosie

It's supposed to be an adaptation to a cold climate.  The closer to the equator a bee is then the lighter it becomes.  Dark bees are meant to be better able to absorb the sun's rays and hence can fly in cooler conditions.  This means they are more successful than light ones and the advantage that confers means they will survive and breed more.  The Aussie bees that Andrew was talking about were in the mountainous West of Tasmania where the climate is better suited to black than yellow.  I understand though that the Amm queens in Tasmania are quite light.

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## prakel

Andrew Abrahams, Bee Improvement #38.




> It is also worth considering that the Black Bee is also the "survivor" in Australia's dry, arid bush. I talked with both Don Keith and Laurie Dewar in Queensland about my interest in Black Bees. Both these long experienced bee farmers and queen breeders expressed their own doubts about the Black Bees' commercial worth, but said that if stocks of pure Italians were abandoned in the Australian bush, they would, after about ten years (5-6 generations) have reverted to blacks.

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## Pete L

> It's supposed to be an adaptation to a cold climate.  The closer to the equator a bee is then the lighter it becomes.


 More to do with climate i would say, as there are black bees living more or less bang on the equator.

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## Rosie

Thanks Prakel.  That would appear to blow the cold climate theory out of the water.  I know that Andrew spent a lot of time with Tasmanian beekeepers and has delivered presentations on the subject but I did not know, or had forgotten, that he had been told that mainland Aussie feral bees tended to go dark.  It could be, of course, that something other than climate was favouring the Amm in the bush so the Italians were just being overwhelmed with Amm genetics rather than changing colour themselves.  I wonder how they knew that the bees they found turning black were the same ones they had lost 10 years earlier.

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## Duncan

Don't forget that AMC is also widely used in Australia.  Maybe there are more carnica feral colonies due to their high swarming and that is where the dark genes are coming from.

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## Poly Hive

He had 8 he said. 

PH

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## prakel

> he said.


Who said? 8 what?

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## lindsay s

I hope this clears up my last post and gives you a better idea about the arrival of Maud bees in Orkney.
Hugh Clyde was my mentor and I spoke to his wife yesterday to make sure I had my facts right. Hugh was from Peebles and was taught beekeeping from an early age by his father. He moved to Orkney in 1963 to start his own pharmacy business and he soon started beekeeping up here. He kept Italian bees for a short time but didn’t like their temperament or suitability for Orkney’s climate. He soon became an advocate for the native black bee and kept meticulous notes on the performance of each hive. Hugh made contact with most of Orkney’s beekeepers and he encouraged many new people to start this hobby me included. He often used to say if there was money in beekeeping he would have never become a pharmacist.
Bernard Mobus used to stay with Hugh when he was in Orkney and they held demonstrations at the Voresheed apiary. It was through this contact that he was introduced to Bernard’s strain of bees. Queens were often sent up from the S.A.C. apiary at Craibstone near Aberdeen and it was not long before Hugh started breeding his own line of bees at Voresheed. For many years most of the bees in the Kirkwall area were either kept at or had come from Voresheed and any other imports were sourced dark bees (mine included) so there was very little cross mating. Hugh would send bees south to friends and say they were from the Maud strain. I’ve got a copy of a report on his bees from May 2000 and it starts off with “The Kirkwall samples are impressive, both are excellent examples of pure apis mellifera mellifera honeybees”. 
Hugh died in January 2004 and an obituary was printed in the April 2004 Scottish Beekeeper. His family asked me to sort out his apiary and distribute his bees to Orkney’s beekeepers, there were 16 colonies kept in various types of hives. His son Torquil who is known to some members of this forum kept a few; I took one and the rest went to different parts of Orkney. I could have gotten more but I didn’t have spare hives at the time. With hindsight I wish I’d taken up the offer. As I said in my last post his strain is now no longer pure but the majority of colonies here are dark and a lot have a high percentage of AMM traits. One of mine was about 94% AMM  in 2011.

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## drumgerry

Fascinating stuff Lindsay.  Perhaps you're aware that the one of the first orders of business of the new SNHBS is to embark on a survey of Scotland's AMM gene pool.  Sounds like you have some valuable material in Orkney.

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## Jon

Torquil did a presentation about Orkney bees and beekeeping at the Bibba conference in Tipperary in 2010.

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## Poly Hive

Andrew Abrahams said that he had 8 queens from B. Mobus. He said this at the conference. 

PH

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## prakel

> Andrew Abrahams said that he had 8 queens from B. Mobus. He said this at the conference.


Thanks. Just not the time to go back through an old thread at present.

From what you've written elsewhere I assume that the maud strain had higher averages than the present day Colonsay bees get:




> Colonsay and Oronsay sustain around 50 colonies of bees. Yields vary with summers but are below the U.K. average of 30lb per colony. There are few beekeepers on the West coast of Scotland, the climate being too wet for commercial beekeeping. Colonsay lies to the west of the rain shadow and it's high sunshine hours make beekeeping viable, if marginal.
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...kZ7UHeIi2aDlWg


Does anyone have data they'd be willing to share with regards to the performance of Colonsay queens when transplanted to less 'marginal' areas?

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## Poly Hive

They could be pretty productive. I took a ton off the OSR and usually close to that off the heather. That from roughly 50 colonies. Mind you that was in the days the OSR flowered for 6 weeks or so. 

PH

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