# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Colony losses

## gavin

Hello All

I think that Eric in his new blog was implying that we're ignoring a big issue or two.  Not quite fair as we have debated winter losses here, but it does seem like a good time to revisit it now.  For me winter losses are not necessarily bad.  It removes maladapted genetics, frees equipment for the wonderful season to come ( :Wink: ) and more than anything teaches us important lessons about our beekeeping.  My beekeeping is just as imperfect as the next man's (or woman's), but I am trying to learn from my mistakes.

So, winter losses.  From what I hear in the E of Scotland it may be a bad year for some, but an average year for others.  There has been some informed speculation that massive losses among a few large-scale beekeepers in the east might have been Varroa-related.

My summary: Went into winter with 6, coming out with only two.  One more is alive but I think that it is queenless.

Losses: one late last year, one early this year after the oxalic dribble, one in the last 2 weeks, one still alive but apparently queenless.

What happened?  Not one of them had any new brood.  I think that the queen shut down last autumn in at least two and never started up again.  Not a good move.  The one I've just lost looks like isolation starvation with stores a short distance from the cluster, and there were no eggs or brood at all.  Was it a queen problem?  On the other hand it had a small patch of brood on 21 March, so how is it broodless now?

What could I have done?  I'm really not sure.  I could and should have fed them better and earlier last autumn, but all of them left stores behind and may have failed anyway.  Should I have fed them at queen-rearing time last year when the weather was awful?  Maybe.  Was I risking their later health by letting Varroa rip through them early last summer?  Maybe, but then I know someone else who didn't treat for Varroa and had better survival.  Should I have done something about their general ill-health last summer (chalkbrood, sac brood).  Probably - Bailey comb change?  Perhaps I need to raise more queens and selfishly keep spares for myself rather than give them away to beginners?

Was it all queen failure?  Maybe not this last one.  I had the trouble described in my blog with entrance blocks moving.  Linchpin suggested blue tits, but there was also mouse activity in some (worst in my strongest survivor in fact).  Did mice kill the queen in the one I've just lost?  Or blue tits?  There is a lesson there, in that last winter the perforated metal mouse guards worked reasonably well, and this winter the wooden blocks on the new mesh floors didn't.  I need to find a way to keep the guards in place.  Maybe I should be insulating the top of the hive too.

Why are queens failing?  I'd really like to know.  Most likely seems the poor weather last summer, leading to poorly nourished queens, poorly mated queens and maybe sub-standard drones too.  There are other possibilities, such as more or different pesticides in the environment than previously.  Is that imidacloprid-treated oilseed rape to blame?  It *could* be as my queens would have been raised on the stuff last year, but let's hear what everyone else has to say first.  If people are seeing queen failures only or mainly when they have been exposed to rape or some other source of insecticide then that might tell us something.  Alternatively, on other fora last year people were describing similar problems away from arable agriculture.  A beekeeper I know in England reports queen problems in the last few summers which disappear in batches raised late in the summer when the weather improved, so I'm keeping an open mind for now.  Maybe people on this list could add to this.

Did beekeeper-applied chemicals contribute?  I haven't used fluvalinate for years and always used it according to the label.  Oxalic dribbling might have hastened the death of one colony, but I think that it was doomed anyway.  Apiguard in late summer should have improved the bees' health and helped winter survival.  I did add thymol to the syrup in the autumn, but I doubt that could be a problem.

What about autumn feed and stores?  My strongest was wintered wholely on heather honey.  My other survivor was fed syrup last autumn while others were at the heather, and its stores were topped up with a super of crystalised rape honey.  It also had access to a small ivy flow in the late autumn, as did all the colonies.

So there we are.  Could do better, should do better, but I'm thinking that queens problems are my main issue and I'm not ready (yet) to blame anything for this other than the poor weather at queen raising and mating time.

Anyone else?  A summary of losses/survival and why you think your losses happened?

best wishes

Gavin

Afterthought: the one I've just lost was a 5-framer last autumn in which I never used dummy boards to close down the space (bad me).  Nice solid frames of stores each side of the neat brood nest, so they'd be OK, wouldn't they?!  They survived into late March, but maybe that last cold snap did for them.  In which case I'm annoyed with myself as I could have done more for them.  It was a swarm last summer from 10 miles away and looked rather Amm-ish, so I'd have liked to have kept them.  Must have a rummage on the floor on Saturday and see if I can find the queen.

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## Jon

I lost a colony last September which in part was my own fault.
It was one of the strongest colonies in the apiary and had two supers half full of honey at the start of August.
It then rained for three weeks.
I did a colony inspection some time around the end of August and there was not a pick of food left in the hive.
hungry bees were starting to fall off the combs. I put a feeder on straight away and they took down kilos of sugar in strong syrup.
In spite of this, the colony had dwindled to a couple of frames of bees by the end of September.
I reckon that it succumbed to a stress induced ailment brought on by reaching starvation point, possibly one of the nosemas.
The other possibility is a duff queen as this hive had tried to supersede in early July even though the queen had only been laying for 6 weeks.
Last summer I noticed a lot of the queen problems Roger Patterson has been highlighting on the BBKA site.
Were I a gambling man, I would bet on it being something to do with Nosema rather than our old friend Imidacloprid.

That left me with 13 colonies going into winter, 9 decent ones and 4 smallish nucs which I had made up from extra supersedure cells in August.
I fed them about 100k of sugar syrup in the autumn.
I had actually contemplated skipping varroa treatment as I had hardly seen a mite all year either on the trays or in drone brood.
But then mites started to appear in numbers on the trays in September so I treated.
Mite numbers double every month, and late summer is when you can see a dramatic increase.
I treated with Apiguard starting mid September, which is really a bit late.
On 22 Dec. I treated all with Oxalic acid trickle.

I was able to check between 17-19 March and all colonies were alive but one nuc was missing a queen. Another nuc had a queen with about half a frame of bees so I combined them. Another queenright nuc had dwindled to the point where I was able to tip them into an Apidea. This one is in my garden shed and the queen is laying. Another colony which was very strong in the autumn has dwindled to a frame of bees but has a laying queen. The rest of them are fine with 2-4 frames of brood.
I checked a couple this afternoon and the strongest would have no more than 6-7 seams of bees. 
The reason the nucs came out of winter so weak is that they went into winter with only 2-3 seams of bees.
I really should have combined some in the Autumn but they had brand new queens and I wanted a chance to evaluate them.

So the state of play is I have 10 viable colonies and a couple of spare queens. I can use these to make nucs in early May if they are still alive.

Jon

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## gavin

> I reckon that it succumbed to a stress induced ailment brought on by reaching starvation point, possibly one of the nosemas.


Interesting.  My first one to go was on the point of starvation in August - bees in slow motion.




> So the state of play is I have 10 viable colonies  and a couple of spare queens. I can use these to make nucs in early May  if they are still alive.


Do you sell bees across the Irish Sea?!

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## Neils

We went into winter with three, two technically belonging to my friend.  1 was a swarm that gave us nothing but trouble all year superseding queen after queen and as of last week it finally succumbed.  His other colony is currently hanging on by a thread but we're only talking about 1-2 frames of bees at the moment. We were talking about this today to see if there was anything definite that we could out our fingers on as to what went wrong. There was a reasonable amount of chalkbrood in the colony throughout the summer, but it was numerically by far the strongest of the three colonies.

Mine went into winter preparations reasonably strong across 9 frames in total, including stores. They'd swarmed reasonably late in July and the new queen came into lay sometime in August. As the mite count had been low all year I was questioning whether to treat with Apiguard at all, but did eventually in Mid September.  I gave them the first super of stores, scoring the cappings and moving the super under the brood and letting them move the stores up before removing the super completely, this still left me with 2 frames unused in the brood area and I topped up with a small amount of syrup.

Since February I've topped the colony up with fondant and late march I gave them a litre of 1:1 syrup

I deliberately didn't treat with OA over winter for a number of reasons, first I guess is that I didn't like the idea of pouring acid over the bees. While I hesitate to invoke the term "Natural Beekeeping", I do want to try and limit the amount of treatments applied to them as much as possible whilst still balancing that with the fact that a loss for me at the moment is 100% losses. Since October I've cracked the crown board twice. Once to get some idea of how strong they were, the last time to do a "half inspection" and apply an apiguard treatment. 

This is about the same point that I took them over last year and they look far stronger to me now than I recall them being back then, but that might just be me.

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## gavin

Superceding queens and spring dwindling .... worth checking for Nosema?  [Thinks: I ought to check my own as well!] 




> While I hesitate to invoke the term "Natural Beekeeping", ....


How very wise!   :Stick Out Tongue: 

G.

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## drumgerry

Lost one this winter - isolation starvation.  Foul tempered colony which I shook swarmed last Spring as a varroa treatment.  They built up strongly again through last summer.  Plenty of stores in brood frames and a super which I left them going into winter.  Then I got swine flu and pneumonia and had a long stay in hossie so they never got their winter oxalic trickle.  A very small cluster of dead bees left when I opened it in March.

This winter I might be tempted to try oxalic vapourisation as an alternative to breaking open the hive in midwinter.  I know it presents a few hazards but if we have another winter like this one they're going to need to conserve their heat!

Gerry

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## Neils

> Superceding queens and spring dwindling .... worth checking for Nosema?  [Thinks: I ought to check my own as well!] 
> 
> 
> 
> How very wise!  
> 
> G.


Did cross my mind to suggest that he gets some samples off both colonies so we can get a better idea of what might have gone on.  After I'd put the phone down, naturally.

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## GRIZZLY

Finaly managed to get into my one remaining colony yesterday,two seams of brood - the rest of the hive chock-a-block with sealed stores,so much so that the Q had no space to lay.Stuck another brood box and frames on top so with a bit of luck and fine weather the colony will move up.I lost my other colony - similar in appearance to Gavins - small area of brood,small cluster of bees and isolation starving despite loads of stores.Possibly Nosema causing dwindle together with the cold/warm/very cold weather we've had.I had lost 8 colonies the previous winter I think possibly from a neuc that was infected with nosema cerenia so excessive dwindling but no faceal smears in the hives.The alternative reason is the possibility that my bees were robbing .My neighbour had 70 colonies scattered about the district and lost 60 of them in the previous winter -( I dont like to ask him what he is down to at this moment.) So robbing his hives is a distinct possibility.I want very much to keep the existing colony as they are as black as soot and quite possibly have a lot of AMM also seem very healthy.We're away from the district for a week (would co-incide with the best forcast we've had in ages) so hope to sort things out more when we return.I need to split this colony a couple of times and concentrate on bee production not honey production.

Another strange thing about the colony that died out was the Q didn't lay any drone brood.I looked on a regular basis but didn't spot a single drone cell with eggs,larvae or cappings.I saw a couple of drones in the hive but possibly from outwith this colony -  I don't know if anyone else has experienced this ??

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## gavin

Thanks Grizzly (and all, but keep them coming)

It strikes me that we (me included) could be a lot better at diagnosing the causes of these losses.  I'll have a better look at my last one at the weekend and see what I can make of it.

I had thought that the presence of brood would be a give-away in that no brood equals queen problems, but having now seen one that did have a laying queen then a couple of weeks later had no brood in a dead colony maybe I was kidding myself.  A colony in trouble probably stops brood raising and might let the remaining brood hatch.

Someone (maybe the diseases guy for a national beekeeping association, with help from those who really know) should write a guide to diagnosing losses.

Grizzly: there are some stocks that seem reluctant to make drones, then really go for it at the right time.  Most stocks will not make drones when the colony is small and the queen young, such as when building up from a small nuc, and I've seen them go through the summer without making drone cells.

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## Trog

> Someone (maybe the diseases guy for a national beekeeping association, with help from those who really know) should write a guide to diagnosing losses.


Good idea, Gavin.  I've heard the SBA guy isn't bad  :Big Grin:

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## GRIZZLY

This  ( droneless ) colony was a full blown one that actually gave me a surplus of about 30 pounds of honey.The Q was 2 years old and had  laid normal drones the previous year. Her worker brood pattern was excellant .I just wonder if she was a victim of nosema causing her strange behaviour. They were strong into the winter but dwindlied to just a handfull of bees when they had died out.The thing is its difficult without opening them up to see if the stock had dwindled with the normal flying that goes on  on fine days when the bees have their normal cleansing flights.I've kept bees for nearly 40 years by my latest reconing and I've never experienced such losses as in  the past couple of years before.With such a late season ( I recon at least a month behind ) its difficult to get on top of the situation and stay there.Down south I could always nip over to the bee research unit at Luddington and stick a sample under a microscope to find out pretty immediately what was wrong,up here its all a lot more primitive and long winded to get answers.Still hey-ho !!

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## Jon

> at least a month behind


My colonies are still very small for the time of year.
3 years ago I had a colony swarmed on 26th April and this year they are not even making drones yet.
Everyone worries about Varroa, but Nosema could well be as big a problem especially with a long winter and cold spring.
Mites are easy to see but I think Nosema can be present at low levels and then multiply or express itself when the bees are subject to stress.
A lot of people are reporting colonies dwindling more than expected this Spring.

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## gavin

> Good idea, Gavin.  I've heard the SBA guy isn't bad


Well I think that he's a lazy waste of space!  Will be tomorrow anyway - he's off to wet his fly lines on Butterstone Loch.

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## gavin

> Down south I could always nip over to the bee research unit at Luddington and stick a sample under a microscope to find out pretty immediately what was wrong,up here its all a lot more primitive and long winded to get answers.Still hey-ho !!


SASA may be willing to do it for you, and I am too.

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## Trog

> Well I think that he's a lazy waste of space!  Will be tomorrow anyway - he's off to wet his fly lines on Butterstone Loch.


I've not even bothered to open the season yet.  Took the water temperature on Loch Torr yesterday - 48 degrees (F), not sure what that is in real money but still too cold.  Is Butterstone stocked, or is it full of wild brownies?

(and do I have to mod myself for going so far off topic?)

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Gavin
The reason I rased the blog is that there must a lot of beekeepers who have lost considerable numbers of bees, hurting, myself included,  and who might feel isolated and even guilty for the losses incurred.  When some tragic event occurs it is reassuring to know that there is help, advice and dare I say it comfort out there from fellow sufferers.  Many of us have been in beekeeping for some time and know that every season is different - that's what makes beekeeeping fun or at least interesting!  We should never become complacent or feel we know it all in our beekeeping.  This 2010 winter was a a wake up call for me personally.  I have been successfully using soilidly crystalised granuated sugar in kilo sugar bags for some 36 years. Managing around 60 - 80 colonies single handed required a lot of creative thinking and using sugar bags instead of feeding sugar syrup in September after the removal of the heather honey made life if not easy but easier for me!  20 colonies fed start to finish in less than 2 hours total!  The sugar bags failed this year!  This year in the West the normal hive humidity  did not materialise - the micro climate in the colonies was arid instead of the usual West of Scotland dampness which assists the bees in consuming the sugar - similar to the stock farmers use of rock salt for his beasts.  Also the winter came too early, stayed too long and too severe.  In mild winters, even in winters with moderate spells of low temperature queen bees lay steadily through out the dormant period, albeit initially at a very low rate but by around mid March some 35 - 50% of the bees in the colony are relatively young bees.  Due to the severity and duration of the winter just past this did not happen this year. What happened in many colonies this year is analogous with losing the queen in late December.  The older bees on leaving the hive didn't  come back- the young bees which otherwise would have been there as reinforcements just did not materialise.  The phenomenon of Marie Celeste which has puzzled beekeepers for years can be explained by the loss of the colony queen at some time after the bees enter the winter mode.  Isolation starvation was also a problem this year.  Colonies died in the midst of plenty because when the cluster moved up into its own heat consuming the overhead store as they went when they reached timber the weather was so cold for so long that the cluster could not break to reach the store combs on either side of it.  The Isolation Starvation phenomenon was a feature of the 70s, when we had some quite severe prolonged frosts.  The recent long run of mild winters resulted in beekeepers either forgetting or never having experienced Isolation Starvation - many of us became complacent and paid the price.  The loss of the heather in some areas has had a detrimental effect on late autumn pollen quality and the upsurge of Himalayan balsam, an excellent honey plant,  has resiulted in bees forsaking lime and willow herb in its favour - Result?  Colonies entering winter with mono floral, exotic pollen who's nutritional qualities I now suspect as being inadequate.  Poorly mated queens have also a contribution to make to colony demise as has poor foraging weather conditions in recent back ends.  Varroa has taken its toll and in my humble opinion is a major factor, which has exacerbated all the other overwintering negatives.  Despite my own losses and the losses incurred by the CABA Apiary Project (aka Clyde Area Bee Breeders Group) the CABBG is travelling hopefully and the intention is to utilise the massive sugar mountain we now have at our disposal as a result of the generosity of the communities of East and West Dunbartonshire, to rebuild the honeybee population in these counties to something of their pre Varroa level over the next few years - United we stand!!!!

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## drumgerry

Eric - I recognise that guilty feeling of having lost a colony or colonies.  Especially if, as in my case, I'd been able to intervene I might have saved them.  

Like I said mine died of isolation starvation - for those of us who weren't beekeeping in the 70s what strategy did beekeepers adopt at that time to avoid it?  Or was it just that we started to have milder winters.  I'm wondering whether steps to insulate hives might help or is there anything else you can suggest?

If you think the winter was severe in Glasgow you wouldn't believe how terrible it has been here.  Being a Glasgow lad myself I've never experienced anything like the winter we've just had here in Strathspey.  Extreme cold for weeks on end (the Spey almost freezing solid a few times) and months (between December and March) when there was constant snow on the ground.  And just when we thought it was all over we got another 15 inches of snow last week (thankfully now almost gone).  The skiers might have had a field day but if I never see another snowflake again it'll be too soon!

Gerry (praying that the forecast of good weather this weekend is a taster of much more of the same for the rest of the year)

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## gavin

Thanks for the thoughtful comments Eric.  Lots to think about there.  Would you place much emphasis on the need for a decent population of young bees produced at the end of last season?  Many colonies just gave uo raising brood last summer, and not all may have caught up when the weather improved late-on.

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## GRIZZLY

I think Erics hit the nail on the head - I'm sure he's right in the fact that Q's gave up laying much earlier last year and probably stopped alltogether during the really cold spells of a terrible winter,thus resulting in dwindling due to lack of young bees to come thro' the winter in a strong condition.Isolation srarvation is another factor and it would seem that no matter how much the bees are fed,if as Eric says " they reach the wood" nothing will induce the colony to move sideways to more productive feed areas.Perhaps we should consider overwintering on double brood or brood and a half so that in the event of another realy cold winter we encourage upwards movement of the colony following the colony warmth.

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## Jon

> The sugar bags failed this year!


I use sugar bags from time to time as well, especially for keeping a bit of food on the nucs. I find it doesn't induce robbing as much as the syrup. In the autumn I try and get them to take down syrup but as Eric says, there is a lot of work in that when you have more than a couple of colonies. If I don't feed syrup, I find they fill the box with ivy honey which crystallises later.




> Many colonies just gave up raising brood last summer, and not all may have caught up when the weather improved late-on.


The weather was so bad here in August that several queens stopped laying. The Apiguard in September didn't encourage them to restart either as I think the smell disrupts them. A couple of colonies even started throwing out pupae and they shifted the brood nest to the point furthest away from the Apiguard. Timing the Apiguard is difficult as weather permitting, I get a flow of Balsam in August and into September and the supers are still on.
What I did notice was that mine raised brood with a vengeance in October on the ivy flow. Last October was quite mild and I checked at the end of the month and a lot of colonies had 5-6 frames of sealed brood and some even had eggs this late on.




> if as Eric says " they reach the wood" nothing will induce the colony to move sideways to more productive feed areas.Perhaps we should consider overwintering on double brood or brood and a half so that in the event of another realy cold winter we encourage upwards movement of the colony following the colony warmth.


I like to fit them into just the one box as a bigger space can make it harder to heat.
My bees go into a small cluster of only 5 or 6 seams of bees or even smaller.
I reckon 30lbs of stores should do them, ie about 6 capped frames. This year, they probably needed a little more with the cold Spring we are having.
If you do Oxalic acid treatment for varroa that is usually around the end of December and it gives a chance to have a check if there are stores in the box and the cluster is centered. If the cluster is in a corner there could well be trouble later on.

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## Eric McArthur

Overwintering bees has always beeen a worry to beekeepers.  The single brood box system is not really suitable, discounting this hopefully one off freak winter, especially where the spring weather has been cold, wet and windy as in recent years.  I overcame the weakness of the single by using a 'canopy of sugar bags, 6 - 8 thoroughly dampend sugar bag, placed in early September, right on the frame tops in way of the cluster.  The bags were usually reduced to paper tatters by late October and were replaced by another 4 - 6 dampened bags.  The colonies are checked around Xmas and more bags with the paper merely wetted donated where necessary.  This system worked well until 2010!  My opinion about optimum overwintering is - follow Ian Craig's system of double brood box management, with the top box stowed out with stores.  Next man down would be the brood and super, this super also chock full of stores.  The most important prerequisite for succesful overwintering, all things being equal is a young queen - by a young queen I mean ideally a current year queen entering her first winter. In the presence of Varroa many queen bees carry the mite all summer, where the beekeeper has been less than diligent with anti Varroa measures, such queens will  have been debilitated by parasitisation and by the start of the second winter - not really fit for purpose!  A colony requeened around early July will boom in good foraging conditions - or where fed if the weather denies the bees acces to the late nectar sources. Bees returning from a good heather season with such a queen will be bursting with bees  - it is the beekeepers job to keep them healthy and well fed from early September.  It is quite astonishing just how much brood a colony denied access to the late nectar flows can produce on the late autumn feed - and thererby hangs the threat - the beekeeper feeds what is deemed adequate in the autumn; hefts the hive in ate October - finds it satisfyingly heavy - but the weight could be made up of a large complement of young bees and an inadequate amount of stores for overwintering.  The bees having used the bulk of th efed syrup to breed!  This was the situation which encouraged my use of sugar bags in the first place!  If winter 2010 turns out to be the norm - it might be well to think about straw boxes around the hive - similar to the WBC double walled hive, provided due care was taken with ventilation.

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## Jon

This year I put an 18" square of polystyrene 50mm thick between the crown board and the roof which did no harm. You can buy a sheet of Jablite in B&Q for £11 which will make ten 18" squares.
Eric, are you on solid floors or open mesh. I find a lot of sugar falls through the mesh on an open mesh floor?
Any reason why you prefer sugar to fondant?
Big colonies going into winter should get off to a better start in spring but one of my stronger ones is down to just a frame of bees for some reason.
We should probably all be testing more for Nosema.

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## Stromnessbees

I initially started beekeeping in Austria, where long and cold winters were the norm. There is one golden rule for wintering that I was taught there, which I have not heard anybody mention here yet: 

_Never put virgin (un-bred) comb into the broodnest after the summer peak._ 

The reasoning: Once the colony starts contracting the queen might not lay eggs in it; the bees will fill it with stores but won't cross over it in the winter. 

I usually stick to this rule but got it wrong once, and right enough, the cluster moved as far as the yellow comb and no further, it died of isolation starvation, with stores just on the other side of the virgin comb.

I know that for disease control it's important to replace brood-comb on a regular basis, but for wintering the insulation capacity of the older comb seems to be a great advantage.

Doris

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Doris
´Niemals´ ist eine recht lange Zeit!  Es gibt eine Ausnahme Deinem Vorschlag in Schottland - beim Wandern in die Heide ist es oft recht günstig ein paar Vorratsrähmchen aus dem Brutraum herauszuiehen und die mit zwei Mittelwandrähmchen zu ersetzen, damit die, hoffentlich, neue Königin ausreichende Platz zum stiften hätte.  Man kann Krankeiten, wie gutartige Saurbrut, Kalkbrut, Nosema und Wachsmotten in alten Waben vernichten mit Räucherung mit 85% Ameisensäure oder 80% Essigsäure.  Mit so einem Verfahren ist es möglich alte Waben zu sparen!

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## Eric McArthur

> This year I put an 18" square of polystyrene 50mm thick between the crown board and the roof which did no harm. You can buy a sheet of Jablite in B&Q for £11 which will make ten 18" squares.
> Eric, are you on solid floors or open mesh. I find a lot of sugar falls through the mesh on an open mesh floor?
> Any reason why you prefer sugar to fondant?
> Big colonies going into winter should get off to a better start in spring but one of my stronger ones is down to just a frame of bees for some reason.
> We should probably all be testing more for Nosema.


The mesh floor is a prolem and it is better to use fondant in this situation unless the sugar has solidly
 crystalised.  The polystyrene is a great idea - this deflects any wild heat from the colony back into the box - even a 1 C could make that life and death difference.  I don't use open msh floors but the same problemm occurs with the Varroa floor which is a necessary evil. I use one floor per 5 hives!  How old was your colony queen?

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## Jon

> same problem occurs with the Varroa floor


Sorry, by open mesh floor I meant Varroa floor so same difference anyway.




> How old was your colony queen


All my queens bar one are 2009. This one started laying last June and was a great layer. I remember on one inspection she had 21 sides of brood over the 11 frames. I saw her about 2 hours ago when I moved the colony, if you could even call it that, into a small nuc.

One of the advantages of polystyrene above the crown board is that it stops condensation forming on the underside and dripping on the cluster. The sides of the hive are cooler and the moisture should condense there and run down to the floor.

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## Stromnessbees

Hi Eric

Your German is excellent, it's not easy with all these specialist terms!

You are right, of course, if you take your bees to the heather it's a good idea to add some foundation which will be drawn out and then laid up by the queen; which is after the 'summer peak' that I mentioned. 
And formic or acetic acid can be used on older comb against some diseases and waxmoth. (Just letting everybody know what this was about).

Mit besten Grüßen, Doris

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## Eric McArthur

From Gavin’s ‘Colony Losses’ thread, which itself seems to have got lost.  It appears that some beekeepers, including myself, are feeling guilt at losing colonies.  Could we have done it better?  This might seem an unanswerable question in the light of the severe winter just past and the possibility that such winters could be the norm in future; management we can change.  The weather; I wish?
However despite the fact that untoward colony losses were incurred by many – there are a favoured few, perhaps even a silent many beekeepers who came through the winter with their colonies intact or who suffered minimal loss compared with their colleague beekeepers.  It would be interesting and educational if these happy individuals would perhaps tell their story – their management system, their winter preparations and,  I  think most importantly; the  type of area where the bees are kept; viz near the coast,  location relative to sea level,  foraging sources, distance from colonies to these sources - even dare I say it – the type of hive! Such information could be just what is needed to give ourselves and the bees a fighting chance of survival in future years.

[This post was moved from another area to keep the discussion together.  Hope everyone is happy with such interventions.  Gavin the Admin]

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## gavin

I'm certainly annoyed with myself about that recent loss which may well have been avoidable.  That's an excellent idea Eric to suggest that people chip in with their successes as well as their losses.  The Colony Losses thread is still there in the Bee Health area below if people would like to add their comments to that one rather than start another here.

[And this]

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## POPZ

[QUOTE=Eric McArthur;693
However despite the fact that untoward colony losses were incurred by many  there are a favoured few, perhaps even a silent many beekeepers who came through the winter with their colonies intact or who suffered minimal loss compared with their colleague beekeepers.  It would be interesting and educational if these happy individuals would perhaps tell their story  their management system, their winter preparations and,  I  think most importantly; the  type of area where the bees are kept; viz near the coast,  location relative to sea level,  foraging sources, distance from colonies to these sources - even dare I say it  the type of hive! Such information could be just what is needed to give ourselves and the bees a fighting chance of survival in future years[/QUOTE]

That horribly negative expression 'colony losses', and now  Eric is thankfully trying to introduce some positive into this thread. I would like to help him in that, although a relative newbie, I and my ladies, have had a great winter so far. Maybe the luck of a beginner, who knows, but my story is this-

I obtained a locally produced nuc in May 2009 with a sealed queen cell. Housing them in a National cold way over OMF, I syrup fed for 6 weeks - 23lbs until second week of July. Then continuous bad weather started so started feeding again till end of August, 14 lbs sugar. Due to past very bad weather, started autumn feeding of 1/2 syrup. added Thymol to first feed. Indian summer arrived so great foraging through to first week of October. 

October 17th prepared hive for winter. Leave OMF without tray. Reduced entrance block and mouseguard. A six inch plastic skirt tacked around base of floor to lessen west coast gale induced draughts!. A sheet of that black webbing, that gardeners use to prevent weeds coming up, tacked round the outside of both brood and super. A cover board over super and then a section of silver backed foam insulation over cover board to fit inside roof. 

I did not remove any honey so they had ample stores throughout winter right through till end of March when things got a bit light and so gave them a wee shot of syrup to keep things moving on. This week have done first inspection and all looks good. 

So, that is my ladies story. Beginners luck maybe, but I do feel that ample ventilation in a hive with a well insulated roof is very important. This keeps the air circulating and prevents any condensation other than on the walls, if anywhere.  

Such a joy to see such activity going on now with the anticipation of building stocks up over the coming season. And many thanks to my mentor/neighbour/pretty troglodyte. :Big Grin:

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## beeanne

I started last spring with bees, and they've made it through (so far!) with a good-sized colony. 
I acquired the colony last spring, in a Smith hive; had a new queen laying by July - I think they superceded the old one, who was of unknown age. She laid incredibly well, far more prolofic than the old one had managed, though took a long time to start. 
I fed from early-September onwards - sugar syrup in place and topped-up until they stopped taking it. They managed to find loads of ivy late on. Due to a prolongued queenless period and the weather, I didn't take any honey from them as there was so little to take - I was (and still am) suffering from single-colony-stress! 
They are still in the Smith, with brood-and-a-half over the winter; I added some fondant early Feb, but I think in retrospect this was unnecessary - they have barely touched it and have plenty stores now.  
I didn't insulate the hive in any way. Where it is can get damp (actually, the bottom of the hive was a few inches off flood water at one point in the winter - I have since increased the height of the stand - in retrospect, I wouldn't recommend going out on your own in the dark to stand waist-deep in flood water in order to add another couple bricks on top of the hive "just in case"). 
They are on an OMF. They are out of the wind as far as possible, and catch plenty morning sun. 

I think I've been pretty lucky - most likely that and having a new queen has got me through, neither of which I can really put down to "hive management skills"!

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## linchpin

Interesting how not taken the bees honey away has helped many more survive this long lasting winter and many newbees all haveing success, listen to see if your dead outs where ones that had honey taken last year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

L

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## beeanne

I don't know if leaving honey helped much in my case, simply because there wasn't that much there to take. Most of the stores were from sugar syrup, so I don't know that the ratio of sugar syrup: honey stores in my hive would be that much different from more experienced beeks who got a honey crop.

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## Jon

With regard to winter stores, it depends more on the type of bee you have and the size of the winter cluster.
If you have a double brood box colony of Italians they will probably need a couple of supers of stores to overwinter.
Native type bees tend to form smaller clusters overwinter and I reckon mine are fine with 30lbs of stores which is 6 capped brood frames.
I fit mine into a single brood box and never use supers over winter. I don't like giving them extra space to heat.
When I quickly checked mine for the first time this year in mid March, the biggest colony was only on 5 frames.
I haven't done the exact calculation but the bees got a good deal last year as I definitely fed them more kilos of sugar than kilos of honey I removed.
It has rained here for the last 3 summers so not much honey to be had. I doubt if the weather has been much better in Scotland.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Popz

That is the kind of report I think other successful overwintering beekeepers should be making.  You did all the right things - and at the right time which is more important.  You are either a beekeeping natural, one smart cookie, able to read books and understand what is best in them or you have some pretty good mentors over there! Or else have all these factors together. Pretty good combination!!   We can all learn from yor report.   I've been in bees for some 42 years and I am taking some notes!  Your signing off 'joy' statement says it all for me!  Go for increase this year.  Well done!

Eric

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## Neils

I did similar to Popz with mine overwinter. While I took the super off the hive over winter I scored all the cappings and moved the first super under the brood box in late autumn and let them take all the stores into the brood area (single National) before removing the super completely.  This seemed to give them ample stores until late february when the hive started to feel a little light and I topped off with a tub of fondant over the crown board.  They pretty much ignored this into march when it suddenly dissapeared and at that point I hedged my bets and added a bit more fondant and a litre of 1:1 syrup. The extra fondant went pretty quickly and as of yesterday the last of the syrup was also gone.  It was a little too nippy to do a full inspection but I had bees over 8 and a half frames by a quick peek under the crown board yesterday evening.

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## Stromnessbees

Hi Eric

You gave a very good description of what happened this winter to many of your colonies in an earlier post:




> I have been successfully using soilidly crystalised granuated sugar in kilo sugar bags for some 36 years....  The sugar bags failed this year! ...  The phenomenon of Marie Celeste ....  Colonies died in the midst of plenty...


Yes, this winter was colder and drier than usual, but we should be looking at other factors, too. POPZ's bees came through just fine; so did mine, despite not being strong colonies. But we are in the lucky situation of not having the same diseases around us as what your bees might be challenged with.

I hope it's OK to quote what I have found on another list (Bee-L):




> > Higes and Meana explained that the pathogenesis of *Nosema ceranae* infection in a 
> > colony progresses through four stages:
> 
> > *Asymptomatic*-the infection builds slowly the first year, goes unnoticed, 
> > but can be detected microscopically in foragers.
> 
> > *Replacement*--The bees rally by rearing more brood, even through winter.
> 
> > *False Recovery*-- This may occur the second summer, during which the colony 
> ...


This winter I have seen colonies in England that had died with fondant available right above the cluster, they just didn't take the food. So it's not just your sugar bag method that seemed to stop working. Re. looking at other options: Have you had your bees tested for spores? 

It would be great to get more contributions on this topic yet.
Doris

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## gavin

Hi Doris

Of course it is fine to quote other bee lists here, especially the most informed of the lot.  Perhaps I should just point out for the unwary that there are other voices on Bee-L suggesting that N. ceranae on its own may be a mild pathogen, and that you need some other factor to make it dangerous.

You are quite right to suggest that Eric might also wonder about Nosema, as I'm sure he has in addition to the factors he suggested.  The reluctance to feed, early loss of foragers, failing queens, these all could be signs of Nosema ceranae (given the apparent lack of dysentery which might indicate N. apis).  Of course these symptoms can have many causes.

I've looked at a handful of bee samples this winter from beekeepers across Scotland concerned about their losses.  Only one - from near Edinburgh - had an obvious Nosema problem.  One from the west with an odd behaviour of bees apparently moving away from the brood comb inside the hive didn't have Nosema.  

Eric mentioned pollen quality and a switch from heather to Himalayan balsam at some of his sites.  I did have a look, but couldn't find anything on the quality of balsam pollen.  It is clear though that the combination of new queens of native bees and late season heather gives a great start to the following season.

I guess that isolation starvation can occur in cold weather with fondant above the colony too?  It is often recommended that in winter fondant is best directly on the top bars, although in the autumn they will readily take it through a feed hole in the crown board.

best wishes

Gavin

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## Trog

I fed candy through a feed hole in the crown board from Christmas until early April rather than removing the crown board to check how much they had left/add more.  It was very cold with chilling winds until last week.  Also, I would have had to add height under the crown board to fit the candy onto the top bars, which would have increased heat loss.  When I checked the bees last week, they'd built comb ladders up to the candy!  They're all fit and well, expanding nicely, and the floor scrapings got a clean bill of health.

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## gavin

That comb ladder tells you something!  A weak stock, or one off-centre might struggle to use fondant in the attic - but if they are already used to raiding the attic, or strong enough to go wandering, or have mild enough conditions for a spell, or already have a ladder, or fondant/candy oozing slightly downwards, then all will be well.

I'm no fondant expert though - just used it for a couple of seasons.

G.

PS  Nice to learn that there was nothing untoward in your floor scrapings.

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## Eric McArthur

I noted that the Colony Losses thread seemed to have dwindled recently like a queenless colony population in late spring!  But I see there is still life there!! Great!

I had a read through the various reports and although there is a lot of obvious Do not do again stuff; there is also lot of good info there:-

Linchpin makes an excellent observation that the newer beekeepers erring on the side of caution and leaving the bees the rewards of their hard work for them to enjoy gets a good result.  I have been called out to a number of abandoned apiaries over my some years in the craft and without fail the colonies in question are bursting with bees and stiff with honey.  Obviously so well provisioned that they are forced to swarm at the first spell of settled weather in early May. Re-queening themselves every year!

Considering our Mull colleagues - A proximity to the sea according to the rules of a Maritime climate results in relatively higher ambient temperatures than those occurring farther inland  those few degrees Celsius higher temperatures could just be a critical for successful over-wintering.

The norm for most colony  losses reported appears to be very small populations in late winter/early spring  this could be either disease or a queen related condition  poor quality queen, old queen, poorly mated queen, queen debilitated by Varroa predation, beekeeper damaged queen, mal-nourished queen, queen well mated, but too late in late summer to build to successful over-wintering strength or even just an intrinsically illness prone queen  like some humans who never really enjoy good health!
Poor disease control reports, almost smacking of diminished responsibility  do not ever be tempted to miss a Varroa treatment  no obvious mite fall is a trap for the unwary.  Many beekeepers, even with 5 or 6 years of Varroa under their belt have paid the price of complacency!  Keep your guard up!  The mite fights dirty!!

An interesting point about drones - beekeepers for many years and even now still talk about stimulative feeding.  This is in my opinion a misnomer!  Ian Craig will tell you that he rarely needs to feed his bees on double brood boxes  but the colonies still produce drones on schedule. Colony prosperity as a term is closer to the drone rearing situation than stimulation.  The first event in colony swarm preparation is drone rearing, which will only occur when the colony is feeling prosperous  the classic feel good factor.

Nellie has noted the successful over-wintering colony symptom  the colony making rapid inroads into its stores as it converts honey and pollen into brood as the queen in early spring increases her rate of lay from tens of eggs/week in mid winter to hundreds of eggs/week as the days lengthen and temperatures rise  that is the theory anyway!!  Feeding is essential at this juncture to maintain brood rearing impetus and avoid colony starvation.

My own experience this year centred round the failure of my sugar bag winter feeding system after 36 successful years using it.  In retrospect heavy sugar syrup feeding in September  could have saved many colonies  never to old to learn!
Now feeding 1 :2 syrup steadily to exploit the massive catkin pollen income. I have fumigated my spare brood comb religiously for many years with initially 80% acetic acid and lately 85% formic acid  my microscope, x1000 tells me so far so good, re the nosemas  N. ceranae requires a comparison with N. apis to differentiate -  N. ceranae is a mdget compared to N.apis  but its shape is unmistakeable.
Travelling hopefully for increase  hope the favourable weather continues  to the end of May at least would be nice!

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## Neils

> Linchpin makes an excellent observation that the newer beekeepers erring on the side of caution and leaving the bees the rewards of their hard work for them to enjoy gets a good result.  I have been called out to a number of abandoned apiaries over my some years in the craft and without fail the colonies in question are bursting with bees and stiff with honey.  Obviously so well provisioned that they are forced to swarm at the first spell of settled weather in early May. Re-queening themselves every year!


When I started I picked up on something that was mentioned by one of the guys doing the beginner's course that he tended to leave the first super for the bees, anything else he regarded as his. I'll come clean and admit that his view wasn't entirely altruistic as he maintained the first super tended to be fairly heavy with pollen but I digress...

My personal view is that the bees are a damn site better at this than we are and that while, economically speaking, it might make sense to take the honey and feed sugar, I can't help but feel that honey has got to be better for the bees than syrup.

I won't bore everyone with the tale of my first season, but I took no honey at all and had about 7 super frames in total of what, in honesty was probably a mix of "natural" honey and syrup as I'd fed the colony fairly heavily through the season.

The only thing I've done differently from a lot of others who left a super on the hive was I "subpered" the box by scoring the cappings and moving it under the brood box towards the end of autumn. Once the bees emptied the supser I removed it and left them to winter on a single brood chamber only.




> Nellie has noted the successful over-wintering colony symptom  the colony making rapid inroads into its stores as it converts honey and pollen into brood as the queen in early spring increases her rate of lay from tens of eggs/week in mid winter to hundreds of eggs/week as the days lengthen and temperatures rise  that is the theory anyway!!  Feeding is essential at this juncture to maintain brood rearing impetus and avoid colony starvation.


I think my own colony's circumstances last season played a large part in my needing to feed them to tell truth, especially combined with the winter we've just had.  I have to be honest and say that I might have fed un-necessarily, I hefted regularly and it was definitely a case of "ooo, heavy", "ooo, heavy", "PANIC! it's light". When I first added Fondant it sat there for a few weeks doing nothing and then went very quickly. At that point I hadn't opened the hive at all so I couldn't tell you how many stores were actually left within the hive. Once the fondant started to be taken however it went very quickly.  After the first batch went we were into mid March and I topped up the tub (margerine sized) again and also added a litre of 1:1 syrup on the other crownboard hole in a rapid feeder.  The fondant went within a week, the syrup much slower.




> My own experience this year centred round the failure of my sugar bag winter feeding system after 36 successful years using it.  In retrospect heavy sugar syrup feeding in September  could have saved many colonies  never to old to learn!
> Now feeding 1 :2 syrup steadily to exploit the massive catkin pollen income. I have fumigated my spare brood comb religiously for many years with initially 80% acetic acid and lately 85% formic acid  my microscope, x1000 tells me so far so good, re the nosemas  N. ceranae requires a comparison with N. apis to differentiate -  N. ceranae is a mdget compared to N.apis  but its shape is unmistakeable.
> Travelling hopefully for increase  hope the favourable weather continues  to the end of May at least would be nice!


I've been using "light" 1:1 syrup in the spring on the basis that I'm told that there's less chance, at this time of year, of the bees trying to store it. From the very brief looks I've had of the frames so far it looks like they are putting the sryup into the frames. As I want them to draw a lot of wax this season I'm not too worried, but I do wonder whether substantial feeding in the spring with a heavy syrup might end up with a degreee of "contamination" on a colony you want to take a honey crop from.

As for Nosema, I have to admit I haven't tested, I'm struggling a little to find someone with more experience than me in my area who can do the testing and that is of more concern to me than Varroa right now.

Apologies for the wall of text.

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## Calum

Hi
the news from Germany is that an estimated 200,000 colonies were lost. 3600 beekeepers in south germany lost 60000 colonies.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/503/508646/text/ 
The president of the german professional beekeepers lost 20%..
Grimm year over here apparently. I know people here who lost 40 and 50 colonies, 50% is not unusal this year. But I know a few that only lost one or two. Mixed bag indeed.

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## Trog

Any idea why such big losses?

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## Calum

The prevailing theories are
Increasing effects of monocultures (need for pollen diversity is well proven)
The long cold winter (bees couldn't get out to the loo) 
That on top of the varroa...

I would add many people using ineffective treatments (eg too cold for folic acid) for varroa or not carrying them out (I use 60% folic acid sponge x7 Aug-Sept+ oxal treament in Dec).
Also people leaving honey in the hives causing increased nosema (wood honey is especially bad for clogging the bowels, is heather as bad?). Many people didnt bother to harvest this summer due too the poor crop, to save the bother of feeding.
People that neglected cutting out all drone brood especially late in the season last year - some were still producing frames of brood in August.

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## beeanne

> ...Also people leaving honey in the hives causing increased nosema (wood honey is especially bad for clogging the bowels, is heather as bad?). Many people didnt bother to harvest this summer due too the poor crop, to save the bother of feeding.
> People that neglected cutting out all drone brood especially late in the season last year


I've not heard of either of the latter theories above? Can you explain the drone-brood in particular? I've not kept bees long and am just keen to find out more! Thanks.

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## Neils

In short, Varroa prefers Drone brood to worker brood so one method of Varroa control is to cut out sealed drone brood from the colony. 

There's a number of different methods of doing this, one of the more common is to use a super frame in a normal brood box. As normal foundation cell sizes are smaller than typical drone brood the Bees will tend to draw the wax out below the super frame at a size more suitable for rearing drones.  As there's no wires or frame sides, you can simply cut this comb off the bottom of the frame once it's been sealed and remove a good deal of the mites in the hive with it.

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## gavin

As Nellie says, some strategic focussing and removal of early drone brood, particularly by the use of shallow frames at each side of the brood nest or a frame of drone foundation (the former sounds better as you can remove almost all of that first pulse of drone brood but leave worker brood behind), is a great way to seriously knock back any spring Varroa problems.

What Calum mentioned seems to be something else.  I've never heard of people in the UK cutting out all late-season drone brood.  I can see that this would hit the mite population, but it also seems much more interventionist than we are used to in the UK.  The shallow frame treatment is just a spring treatment and colonies are left alone later to get back to the drone population they like to have around.  If you have a few colonies and wish to select against some of them, this approach can help skew the genetics of the subsequent generation by removing drones.  If you need drones and cannot rely on the local colonies to supply them, then Apiguard would be better.

On the digestive problems of wintering on heather, honeydew or perhaps ivy honey, most people say that the continental races have problems but not native races.  That would make sense, as these will have been the traditional wintering food of bees in the UK ever since they appeared here.  Bees wintering on heather honey are often the most vigorous in the next spring.  Might you take yours to the heather Anne this year?

all the best

G

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## beeanne

Didn't occur to me that the autumn-drone brood removal could concern varroa control - I have a super frame in my brood box just now in the hopes of some varroa trapping, too.  I was hazarding a wild guess along the lines of conserving colony resources pre-winter. 

Does anyone have a view on wether allowing/encouraging them to have more drones is wise for reasons other than queen mating? I recently read something which suggested that enabling greater levels of drones in the hive made for a stronger colony, even though drones are, on the face of it, a drain on the colony (men! tsk!).

Yep, Gavin - I'm pretty keen to take mine to the heather this year - last year seemed unwise given foul brood situation at the time.  I will do assuming I've a colony doing well enough to make it worthwhile, and nothing untoward crops up. Though I do have a terrible confession to make... I don't much like heather honey. I know, and I hang my head in shame.

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## Calum

Drone brood removal is an intergral part of varroa control here and the mainstay for bio beekeepers. 
I remove every frame they cap. There are more than enough drones that slip through that net. Varroa will also lay more eggs in drone brood as the have more time. 

The wax from the drone brood is also the main source of uncontaminated wax (that and capping wax) free from pesticides and varroa chemical treament residues. So I have non poisionus foundation for next years honey comb which in turn will become the new brood frames for 2012. - The advantage of having one frame size for brood and honey magazines.

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## Calum

[QUOTE=Nellie;765]In short, Varroa prefers Drone brood to worker brood so one method of Varroa control is to cut out sealed drone brood from the colony. 
There's a number of different methods of doing this, one of the more common is to use a super frame in a normal brood box. QUOTE]

Apparently the smell of the hormones from drone brood attracts them.. And I just use a regular sized brood frame without foundation or wire for them to build out. After April every strong colony (>14 frames brood) gets 2 frames for drones. Replace them alternately so I can remove a frame every ten days when they are in the mood.

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## Trog

Ah, so could artificial drone brood hormones be used to lure varroa into a sticky (or drop-through) trap, a bit like the yellow sticky traps used for whitefly in greenhouses?

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## Calum

That would be nice, but how to make it? Grind up drones ? A synthetic hormone might be, hahaha sorry for beekeepers so, will be very very pricey for the volumes we would use... Would be a year round solution though!

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## Trog

Well, given that some folk are feeding drone brood to their hens or using them in stir-fry dishes, perhaps someone might like to experiment with an extract of drone brood.  Eau de drone has a certain ring to it!  (Actually it was a semi-serious suggestion ..)

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## gavin

If Calum was to move up the W side of Germany then do such a thing, would he be making Eau de Cologne Drone?

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## Calum

Very droll, thanks for making me smile this early in the day! I think all of the 17+ bee health institutes in Austria, Germany Switzerland and Holland are working on the varroa issue in one way or another. The Swiss center for bee studies in Bern seem to have been focusing on this possibility.

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## Trog

> would he be making Eau de Cologne Drone?


Eau de cull-drone, surely!

Seriously, we use pheremone capsules to attract swarms (whether it works or not is a moot point), so why not something similar for varroa?

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## Calum

> Seriously, we use pheremone capsules to attract swarms (whether it works or not is a moot point), so why not something similar for varroa?


 Wouldn't know about that - that is illegal here in Germany. 

I haven't read deeply on the subject I must abmit. But I think the book is still out on weither it is the food the drone brood gets or the smell of the drone brood its self. Or a mix of both.

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## gavin

The cues used by Varroa to identify a cell to enter may be complex.  The main thing is that they do so when a cell is soon to be capped, then they dive into the brood food and do their submarine act, presumably to hide.  Both workers and drone, but with a preference for drone.  So how do they identify a larva at the right stage?

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## Stromnessbees

Somewhere (sorry, can't remember where) I read that they measure the gap that's left between the larva and the cell wall. This led to the development of plastic comb with slightly wider ends to the cells, in order to trick the varroa. Don't know what happened in the trials, has anybody else read about this?

Doris

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## gavin

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...de2c0d20bf0908

Rosenkranz, Aumeier and Zeigelmann (2010) 

We can summarize, that the host-finding behavior of _Varroa_ females is triggered by a variety of factors including physical parameters, but the suitable host stage is finally recognized by chemical volatile signals of the host larva and the adult bee. The biological activity of many chemical blends has been demonstrated in laboratory bioassays including compounds of several fractions from the extracts of larval cuticle and larval food. However, we still have not identified the real ‘‘host odor” of the 5th instar larva of the honey bee: not a single experiment succeeded in luring the _Varroa_ female from the adult bees to a dummy containing a certain blend, neither in the laboratory (Kraus, 1994) nor within the colony (reviewed in Dillier et al., 2006). In all experimental setups, adult bees were always more attractive than any larval stage ([LeDoux et al., 2000] and [Zetlmeisl and Rosenkranz, 1994]). This contradicts the natural situation in the honey bee colony, where generally significantly more mites are within sealed brood cells than on adult bees ([Boot et al., 1993] and [Martin et al., 1998]). During the summer, up to 90% of the mite population can be within the brood (Rosenkranz and Renz, 2003).
We must conclude that as long as _Varroa_ research fails to elicit the shift of _Varroa_ females from bees to brood under controlled conditions, the development of a _Varroa_ trap seems unrealistic.

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## Calum

So stick to cutting out two alternating frames of drone brood then!

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## gavin

Yup, if you like.  As long as you minimise drone brood on other frames (otherwise the mites build up anyway) and you know that you don't need those drones.  If you get it right with the first couple of frames then you are removing much of the mite population and can leave them to make drones for the rest of the summer.  When I've used the method it has just been as a holding strategy to get the colonies through to a later point in the season for treatment then by some other means.

I used oxalic acid last winter and am not expecting a mite problem until late summer, but I'll keep watching.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum
Have youheard about the latest American Formic acid treatment, which according to the manufacturers will soon be on the UK market.  This product again according to the blurb can be used with honey supers on the colony, is biodegradable and leaves no residues.  Much the same treatment which has been used succesfully in Europe and by a few progressive beekeepers in Scotland for some years.  The Yanks are confident that the product will get a licence for Europe and the UK and to be acceptable the formic concentration must be 60%, which is the European Standard.  The claim is that a "one off"  treatment is 80% effective with mites on drones and 95% in the case of worker bees is intersting to say the least.  If the stuff is this good an active UK wide beekeeper lobby might just get a result from DEFRA. Try the link www.miteaway.com

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## Calum

H Eric,
Formic acid treatment is my main chemical treatment at the end of the summer season. 
60% is common here and is subsidised by the state. It is non prescription but reqires a couple of treatments (5-7).
80% is available with a vets perscription (easy to get - just go to a vet and say the bees are overrun with varroa- they are not usually keen on looking) - but usage records must be kept.
The miteaway is a gel on a biodegradeable plastic film so I guess it would be used instead of the medicine bottle feeding formic acid onto a airiation block of wood. (old treatment just new delivery then)
It is a one off treatment that runs for at least 4 weeks (needs kill more than one cycle to be really one time):
I would be a bit secptical about the kill rates mentioned - there is no mention of any institute verifying the results tho here http://de.ibtimes.com/prnews/2010032...gesundheit.htm they say up to 97% of varroa was killed. The range would be interesting to know (60-97% or 90-97%). 
Proximity to the frames studied is not mentioned (I need it to treat 20 frames not just two next to the strip). Ambient temperatures are also very important if you want to get acid vapour through the wax cell caps. A week or two of +20°C at the end of the summer is no problem in Germany. In Scotland too?
 If it gets through the wax it gets into the honey. It is natural but then so are arsenic and sulphuric acid. Here noone treats with Fromic acid untill the honey has been harvested -even with 60% Formic acid - dont want the taste pH or smell in the liquid gold! If it is 80% (to get thro the wax) that kills a lot of open brood and young bees (especially on a hot day) - don't fancy killing all those winter bees!
I'll stick to my 60% 50ml formic acid on a foam mat I think 6liters costs 20 euros - that is enough for my 20 colonies.
Sorry it does not look like silver bullet to me. The delivery method seems alot less hassle thats true.

The last big thing here was a mix of oils all natural (peppermint I think), they were passed as they did not kill the bees - they didnt kill the varroa either -alot of people believed the trials carried out by the producer - and paid with their bees. 
This new product will probably be passed in Germany as it is only a variation of something that is allowed. Of course it will be more expensive. I guess the release rate of the acid and its strength will decide if it is prescription or not. My guess is they will aim for not as beekeepers here don't like treatments that need records keeping. OK before this turns into a book I'll turn my attention to the snooker.
I'll add BASF seem to be seriously involved, which leaves room for hope unless they are just trying to make good press after their Fipronil killed all those bees.....

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum

I never noticed your country of origin – apologise!  Grannies and sucking eggs comes to mind!

The organic acid treatment procedures have been well documented in the German language literature over the years. 
I have used the 3 cycle, 3 day 60% formic acid , 2mls/seam of bees procedure successfully for a number of years.  I modified the time scales using the simple logic; that at any time when the colony was rearing brood the temperature immediately above the brood nest (at the frame tops!) would be high enough to evaporate the acid.  
I use a simple flat board device to house the acid carrier, sponge or cloth, which is placed right in way of the cluster on the top of the brood frames.  My modified time scale is mid April and again during the June Gap; both these periods have critical brood concentrations and the fumigation procedure kills the bulk of the mites in the brood cells prior to the bee  population surge in May and of course prior to the emergence in July of the bees which will constitute the late summer/autumn/winter bees.  The system works very well – despite the fact that when I started to use the method I had seen nothing in the literature about formic use on these timescales.

I was quite amused recently by Ritter’s references to “Sind wir Alle doof”, page 2, in the April 2010 issue of the ADIZ – where he satirises the movement of times scales in the Varroa treatments.

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## Calum

Hi Eric,
your treatment dates are interesting! April and June? Thats in the middle of my Dandelion crop and clover - if it is wet enough! Treating at the end of the season would have the advantage in mho of being late enough to prevent reinvasion. In June there are enough drones about to make reinvasion highly likely. Especially if your neighbouring beekeepers do not treat at the same time. .. 
But I appreciate the ambient temperatures needed for the treatments might not be so certain at that time of year in Scotland.
Haven't read the ADIZ from April yet. Where did you learn German?

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum

The June Gap treatment  is more to kill the mites in the late summer brood!  I treat again in late October with 60% formic  - that catches most of the residual mites and 
any “serendipitous” late summer re-infestation.  Oxalic acid fumigation or trickle is carried out late December, missed that one last year due to the nightmare December and January weather – the April formic treatment arrests mite development at a very critical time!  A little often seems to work well!
 I have been working with the German language since the early 1970s studying at the Goethe Institute, Glasgow to the Grosse Deutsche Sprachdiplom level.  I did a Post Grad Diploma at Stirling Uni in 1980 and finished the Final Diploma of the Institute of Linguists in 1982.  I also did the “Wirtschaftsdeutsch” Diploma of the German Chamber of Commerce in 1990.  I still attend a Literature Class every fortnight just to keep the language going!  Ich habe einen Tiger vor dem Schwanze und das Loslassen ist mir unmöglich!

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## Calum

Oh, ok I went to Germany for a birthday party. Liked the weather and the beer.. That was about 12 years ago. 
Learnt German mostly in bars and that was in Allgau - so my German is not quite Hannoveran.
Es kennad nedd älle Herra sei, wer däd no dia Säu hüata.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum

Wish I'd done the same - family committments! - So took the alternative route.  First contact with the langauge was  in the Scotch Bar in Marburg on holiday in 1979 -  came home with a love of the language and took it as far as I could.  I have a few German beekeeper pen pals!  Never learned the various Platt dialects.   Which one is that?

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## lindsay s

First of all most of what I know about beekeeping was taught to me by Hugh Clyde many years ago and since then I’ve plodded along by myself. I have some bee books and also subscribe to a few beekeeping magazines but I must admit the theory and science behind beekeeping are not my strong points. So the following is from my own personnel experience.
My apiary is located on low lying farmland and my hives are semi sheltered from the westerly winds. Fresh water ponds are only 200 metres away. With my apiary so close to Kirkwall my bees benefit from the nearby gardens for most of the year.   
Despite Orkney’s northerly location we don’t suffer from prolonged periods of below freezing temperatures in winter because of our maritime climate. The biggest problems facing my bees are damp weather, severe wind chill and the late spring.
All of my hives have black bees but they’re not A.M.M. Until varroa reared its ugly head bees were imported to Orkney from all over the UK. Even as recently as 2002-2003, 80 hives of bees came here from Inverness-shire so I think most of Orkney’s bees are mongrels all though Doris might know otherwise.
In my early years of beekeeping I often lost colonies over the winter for the following reasons, lack of autumn/spring feeding resulting in starvation, not fitting mouseguards or entrance blocks, weak autumn colonies and my laziness and inexperience. I’ve since improved my beekeeping and now have very few winter losses. This year all of my 7 colonies made it through the winter but one had a drone-laying queen so I united it with another hive.
I remove all the honey from my hives at the end of August and start feeding strong sugar syrup until the bees stop taking it. This autumn I’ve used 80 kilos of sugar between 8 hives. Sometimes the bees get a block of candy in January and I’ll start feeding weak syrup at the end of March if the weather is warm enough. I don’t scrimp on the feeding.
I’m happy to over winter 3-year-old queens and the following spring I unite any weak colonies.
I have Smith hives sitting on raised concrete slabs, starting with a shallow hive stand, floor with an entrance block, single brood chamber, crown board with mesh over the feeding holes, empty super and a roof with a few stones on top. There is no insulation above the crown board or inside the brood chamber. This will be my first winter trying out open mesh floors and I hope I don’t wipe out the bees. (See my other posts)
I know of a few let alone beekeepers that don’t bother with much autumn/spring feeding and their bees still survive the winters. (I think their bees survive just to spite them) Maybe our hardy Orcadian bees have life a little bit easier than their varroa infested southern cousins.

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## Eric McArthur

> So stick to cutting out two alternating frames of drone brood then!


Hi Calum
This snow is a bit of a bind - but leaves one to browse rather than do much outdoors, after the obligatory walk with the dog!  Read your resignation at the prospect of only having the cutting procedure for drone sacrifice.  Any comments on the piece pasted below?

Eric McArthur
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; 

Sacrificial Drone Brood Re-visited
The present accepted wisdom of reducing Varroa infestation levels in honey bee colonies by drone brood sacrifice is extremely wasteful.  
At present beekeepers are advised that the bees be encouraged to rear drone brood, which should then be removed by cutting it out at a particular point in time after sealing but before the adult drones emerge, using two or three cycles of drone brood rearing in spring /early summer.  This biological method will not, on its own, maintain Varroa populations below the damage threshold in the medium to long term but nonetheless it is an important component of an Integrated Pest Management System (IPMS).  The wasteful aspect of the current practice is actually threefold;
1	The bees have to rebuild the brood comb after each cycle of     cutting;  according to research between 3  4 kilograms of honey are required to produce 1 kilogram of wax.
2	The bees have to invest a very large quantity of their precious stores and body tissue to rear this drone brood.
3	Apart from the immediate benefit from the removal of numbers of potential bloodsucking parasites, there is no potential, medium to long term, gain for the beekeeper /bee breeder with this crude cutting procedure.
Consider:
1	Over time, a saving in energy and effort by the bees by not requiring to produce more wax could be quite considerable.  
2	The reduced loss of precious stores might just be a critical component in colony survival in border line conditions.
3	The potential medium to long term breeding advantages from another equally effective but less wasteful drone sacrifice procedure could be considerable
The object of the drone sacrifice procedure is to remove the mites with the drones, which then die in the comb, thus denying the breeding mites and their offspring their food source. 
By combining a couple of already established factors; like bees will cannibalise brood and any residual brood food in the cells in a dire emergency and also the needle test used in the study and assessment of hygienic behaviour in a bee colony.
1	 Thus instead of cutting the sealed drone comb out - use the needle test procedure to kill the drone larvae, However not with a single needle, instead use something with a cluster of needles; like a hair brush with stiff plastic or wire bristles, or even a DIY  pin board. 
  Shake the bee off the comb to be treated  lay it on a flat board          made for the purpose;  press the bristles/needles in a coordinated manner deep into the brood cells on each side of the comb, killing the     drone brood as in the needle test. 
2	If this procedure is carried out around the 12/15th day after the eggs are laid, at the nymph stage the bees in cannibalising the brood will gain back a proportion of the sterols, such as 24 methylene cholesterol and others which are necessary for brood development and which the brood receives at the expense of the worker bees body tissue; which cant be bad.

3	By employing the needle test method the bees are encouraged to   remove the dead brood from the comb but on a larger scale than the 100 larvae killed in the traditional needle test for hygienic behaviour.
 Thus by simple observation and good management the beekeeper will have increased the security and prosperity of his colonies and moved some way to being able to establish, virtually by default, which colonies possess the highest level of hygienic behaviour.  Breeding from such colonies with due consideration for inbreeding can also only be a positive.

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## Calum

Hallo Eric,
you make some interesting points I have to admit. I do not disagree with you altogether...but..

1 Over time, a saving in energy and effort by the bees by not requiring to produce more wax could be quite considerable. 
True, but this assumes that the wax is not collected. I view drone brood wax as the best source of clean chemical free wax for foundation. I remove the old (black) brood frames and use that wax for making candles. Drone brood supplies the replacement wax - so this helps me out rather than causing waste.
2 The reduced loss of precious stores might just be a critical component in colony survival in border line conditions.
Yes this could be the case in some areas. If the honey flow stops the drone production stops with it in my little experience. The bees are canny at managing their own recourses. If they were that light I hope I'd notice and feed honey in time.
3 The potential medium to long term breeding advantages from another equally effective but less wasteful drone sacrifice procedure could be considerable
The object of the drone sacrifice procedure is to remove the mites with the drones, which then die in the comb, thus denying the breeding mites and their offspring their food source. 
I would prefer not to kill the drones at all, but as far as I have read the varroa mother leaves the drone cell with her daughters when the cell is open. So your proposed method would stop varroa multiplication in drone cells, but would give the caught varroa a second chance. I'd worry about incouraging other diseases like nosema through your method  of pearcing that much brood. The idea that it would greatly improve hygenic behavious is very interesting indeed though.

Do you work by this method? Sorry for mistakes - I have a killer hangover.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum
Not yet!  The idea came while luxuriating in a hot bath!  Not nursing a hangover but I reckon that would be worth a try!  Good to have your comments – re the borderline situation mentioned  - I was thinking of our unpredictable  Scottish weather - late May/early June can be the pits!
I intend to give the ploy a whirl next season – if the bees survive this present mini ice age – getting iffy!  I reckon some of the weaker colonies especially those on single brood boxes will have already succumbed.

Regards
Eric

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## Calum

Hi Eric,
sorry to hear you think you may have losses. 
I have heard the losses here in November were already extreme in some cases (from 20 hives no survivors). Certainly due to poor vorroa treatments.

In Russia they store the hives in (cold) barns during the winter - but that is -35°C.
Here mine seem quite happy with the -20°C we have been having. They will go at the stores a little quicker, but they have on average +15kg so no worries till March/April. 
ttfn
Calum

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum

ANY REASON GIVEN FOR SUCH EARLY WINTER LOSSES - PESTICIDES??

ERIC

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## Jon

> Hi Calum
> 
> ANY REASON GIVEN FOR SUCH EARLY WINTER LOSSES - PESTICIDES??
> 
> ERIC





> (from 20 hives no survivors). Certainly due to poor vorroa treatments.


Eric. If you tripped in the snow you would blame it on pesticides!!!

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## Trog

:Big Grin:   Ha ha, Jon!

I'm pleased to report that our (inbred) bees are all still buzzing, despite freezing temperatures to which no Mull bee could reasonably be acclimatised!

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## gavin

Serious question Trog, given that drones can fly many miles, how many colonies do you think make up the local population for your bees, and for how long has that been the approximate number?

G.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum

Interested to know if the colony losses were specific to the Lindau region or Germany wide!  Weather here (-)15.  I reckon!  Hopefully Professor Bienefeld knows about your hardy bees!

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Hi

Love you!

Eric

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## Trog

Not sure to whom that post's addressed, Eric  :Wink:   Should I be worrying?

In reply to Gavin: there have always been at least two colonies in at least two of the villages.  Swarms aplenty have been lost over the years (impossible to know how many survived and increased) and bees also imported from Ft William, Glasgow and Colonsay (the first two pre-varroa, of course).  A feral colony just over 4 miles away still thriving but I don't know where the originals came from.  No beekeepers there now.  In short, almost impossible to answer your question!

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## Jon

> Not sure to whom that post's addressed, Eric


Bet you a fiver it's not Gavin!!

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## chris

I think his "Go Advanced" button has blown it for good

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## Calum

Hi Eric,
re colony losses - it seems to be a very mixed bag indeed. I hear that all around people have suffered losses.
Half my colonies were treated yesterday for varroa. All 11 were still going strong apart from two that were a little small but not so small as to have no chance.
Of the 20 other colonies on that site there are only 12 left. 
The only diference between the pair of use is the days we treated with formic acid, the strengths we used (he used 85% I used 60% but did one treatment more) and the number of nucs we made up (I made two 4 frame nucs per colony, he made one 4 frame per colony).
He has 55 years experience & keeps very up to date on the latest methods. So I would not like to say I did anything better than him. The cool and often wet August caused many formic acid treatment failures (generally). Reinvasion is also probably an issue, although if it were the prime issue I would also likely have losses.

All my extra colonies are now pre ordered now, so I hope they all make it - that will pay for a lovely new motoriesd programmable self turning honey extractor!
Fingers crossed and no counting chickens and all that....

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## gavin

I'd rather that another thread wasn't diverted to more cutting and pasting on pesticides, so the post Eric just made has been moved to a new thread down the page in the area set up for that kind of thing.  You can find it here:  http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?391-Here-we-go-again!

G.

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## Eric McArthur

> Hi Eric,
> re colony losses - it seems to be a very mixed bag indeed. I hear that all around people have suffered losses.
> Half my colonies were treated yesterday for varroa. All 11 were still going strong apart from two that were a little small but not so small as to have no chance.
> Of the 20 other colonies on that site there are only 12 left. 
> The only diference between the pair of use is the days we treated with formic acid, the strengths we used (he used 85% I used 60% but did one treatment more) and the number of nucs we made up (I made two 4 frame nucs per colony, he made one 4 frame per colony).
> He has 55 years experience & keeps very up to date on the latest methods. So I would not like to say I did anything better than him. The cool and often wet August caused many formic acid treatment failures (generally). Reinvasion is also probably an issue, although if it were the prime issue I would also likely have losses.
> 
> All my extra colonies are now pre ordered now, so I hope they all make it - that will pay for a lovely new motoriesd programmable self turning honey extractor!
> Fingers crossed and no counting chickens and all that....


Hi Calum
Your report about these losses is to me extremely disturbing.  I am  quite astonished that the main suspect is Varroa.  What story do the hive inserts (Windeln) tell -  not to teach you to suck eggs  but the accepted wisdom  regarding lethal mite population levels seems to be being contradicted in the present cases: on two counts at least  Germanys beekeepers are among the best informed in the world relative to Varroa:  the numerous beekeeping centres of excellence have ensured that.  Varroa should not kill in such a short time scale providing that infestation levels were being monitored systematically and correct treatment was being applied in heavy infestation situations.  
Mainland European beekeepers have the legalised tools for the job.  Unlike here where the progressive beekeeper has to bend/break the stupid laws regarding the alternative treatments to keep bees alive. 
 Reinvasion was noted to be a problem relatively swiftly after the early mite colonisation of Europe  oxalic acid can deal with such a situation very effectively as you already know!

I was under the impression that 85% formic was taboo! The 60% is very effective  I have used this for a number of years now.  Despite the fact that we lost a lot of bees last winter to Isolation Starvation  all of our Varroa inserts were clean and clear going into the winter!  Peter Stromberg can vouchsafe that!!  How do you apply your formic  Liebig Medizinflasche, Nassenheider, Liebefeld Verdunster oder Schwammtuch?  We decided on the kitchen sponge method with excellent results.
backed up by an oxalic booster in late December  if the mite fall indicated more than 1 mite drop/day in late November!  As recommended in the German literature.

I cant believe that the German beekeepers yourself included are being decimated by Varroa. To the extent described after all these years of experience with it.

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## Jon

I had several nucs dwindle right down between September and October.
I also lost several queens during this period.
I think there were several factors involved.

1. Varroa. I started treating with Apiguard on 10th September and that was really a month late. I was away for most of August so no choice. I noticed quite a bit of spotty brood pattern but this cleared up after I got rid of the varroa. I think the bees show a bit of hygienic behaviour which leaves the od empty cell.
2. Robbing. Feeding and varroa treatment often happens at the same time and I think some of the smaller nucs were targeted by both wasps and stronger colonies.
3. Overstocking. On my main site I had 10 full colonies and about a dozen nucs. I think the nucs struggled to build up due to competition for forage.
I have 7 nucs in the garden and I doubt if anyone else has bees within a mile and they have done well.
4. Chalkbrood. I saw far more this year. Eric says feeding clears it up and it did seem to disappear in September when the feeders were on. July and August were a washout again and I always tend to see more chalkbrood in damp conditions.

I still have 20+ colonies so if I don't have severe losses I will be ok for next season. I promised to donate a couple to the new association apiary.

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## Eric McArthur

> Ha ha, Jon!
> 
> I'm pleased to report that our (inbred) bees are all still buzzing, despite freezing temperatures to which no Mull bee could reasonably be acclimatised!



Hi Trog

Interesting report!  The freezing conditions you mention  was that just a figure of speech to say it was relatively cold?  A.m species being poikilothermic have a trouble flying at around 8 Celcius!  If your bees are flying at borderline temperatures then they are either excellent potential  breeder stock for poor spring weather foraging(just think of bees being able to get to the snowdrop and crocus every year) or something is making them uncomfortable enough to risk chilling by leaving the hive.  
In past benign years  in another life! -  bees in the West of Glasgow were noted carrying pollen even in late December at temperatures of 8+ Celsius.

Eric

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## Calum

Hi Eric,
I have not lost a colony myself yet. 85% is recommended everywhere in Germany and Austria now except in Bavaria. It is used with medicine bottle or Nassenheider. I use the Vileda sponge myself. In the 4-5 years I have been keeping bees I have only lost one colony.. 
Our weather in August was as said continually warm then cool and rainy. This is the statement from our specialist here about treatment in this weather:
Eine Varroabehandlung bei Regenwetter ist immer mit einer verringerten Verdunstung und damit einer verringerten Wirksamkeit verbunden. Vor allem bei Kurzzeitbehandlungen, wie der Schwammtuchmethode wird eine Behandlung bei Regenwetter schnell unwirksam.

Die Zahl der Behandlungen läßt sich nicht einfach festlegen. Im Normalfall ohne große Reinvasion und bei Behandlungen mit optimalen Bedingungen können durchaus 3-4 Schwammtuchanwendungen verbunden mit einer Winterbehandlung ausreichen. Die Erfahrung zeigt jedoch, dass immer wieder einzelne Behandlungen bei nicht optimalen Bedingungen  vorgenommen werden und eine Re-invasion in vielen Fällen zu beobachten ist. Daher sind 5-7 Anwendungen in den meisten Fällen nötig. Hier hilft es die Varroasituation im Auge zu behalten um schnell reagieren zu können.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Johann Fischer
Fachberater für Bienenzucht in Schwaben

A Varroa treatment in rain weather is always connected with a reduced evaporation and with it a reduced effectiveness . Particularly with short time treatments, like the sponge cloth method a treatment quickly becomes in rain weather ineffective. 
The number of the treatments specified simply. Under normal conditions without large Reinvasion and with treatments with optimal conditions quite 3-4 applications of sponge cloths can be sufficient connected with a winter treatment. The experience shows however that individual treatments are made again and again with not optimal conditions and a Re invasion is observed in many cases. Therefore 5-7 applications are in most cases necessary. Here it helps to be able to react the Varroa situation in the eye to keep over fast. 
Sorry the translation is done online as I have to work too..
Theweather throughout September and the first half of november was very clement - colonies kept brood including some drone brood.  Some people reported 3-5 varroa per day dropping. But the oxalic treatment can only be done once and the colony has to be brood free - so most had to wait for the cold weather. Those that did not will have a higher risk of colony loss in April. 
I think a part of the issue is that maybe some beekeepers are not making enough nucs, this causes various 'risks' that in my opinion could increase winter losses. ok back to work.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum
Thanks for that!  In November 4-5 mites/day is a doomsday scenario.  Due to the limitations of the Trickle Method we started to use the Fischermühle Vergasung procedure using 1.5 g oxalic acid crystal in a DIY short pipe bend some years ago  this method can be used 3 or 4 times over a 2 month period so long as the ambient is above 0 Celsius.  Contrary to popular belief the method is safe, simple, effective and quick so long as a proper gas mask( easily obtainable) with the correct filters is used. Regarding formic acid;  using the sponge method in mid April depending on the season (late or early!) and applying 60% on a three day cycle, this will kill the mites in the cells before the bulk of the brood emerges  in May! This procedure is repeated in mid June with the same view in mind.
I had a discussion with one of the English bee inspectors recently, about the recommendation relative to Varroa population levels given in the Beebase web site; see under.

Regards

Eric 




..................................................  .................................................
Dear Sir
The  advice given under, relative to Varroa is not comprehensive enough to ensure that a colony of bees has a moderate chance of survival over the winter.  A colony of bees entering winter, around the end of December must/should be in the situation where the mite fall after the oxalic acid treatment has been carried out successfully is no more than 1 mite per 2 days. 
 This is the accepted wisdom in mainland Europe - check it out!
Regards
Eric McArthur
..................................................  ...........................................
Beebase advise
Further information can be found in the NBU Leaflets The Small Hive Beetle and Tropilaelaps: parasitic mites of honeybees.
 Varroa numbers are below the treatment or damage threshold of 1,000 mites. Varroa must be kept below the damage threshold.
..................................................  ..................................................  ............
Dear Mr McArthur
Thank you for your message. Opinions of damage thresholds vary throughout the world with similar disparities throughout various countries. The NBU tables and the advice given are all based on scientific research carried out in the UK on varroa population dynamics and the subsequent development of computer modeling. I have used these tables for many years and have had no colony losses due to varroa and the associated diseases. 
Many beekeepers may wish to set a lower threshold but this will probably be at the expense of more varroacide usage. It is their choice. I can only reply that the tables used are based on science and not guess-work.
..................................................  ..................................................  ..................

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## Calum

Hi Jon,
You wrote:
Regarding formic acid; using the sponge method in mid April depending on the season (late or early!) and applying 60% on a three day cycle, this will kill the mites in the cells before the bulk of the brood emerges in May! This procedure is repeated in mid June with the same view in mind.

I would not use formic acid before my last honey harvest in the beginning or middle of unless I was treating a caught swarm.
Open honey cells and even the wooden frames absorb the acid - this would lead to a less than natural honey.
Cutting out drone brood and making new colonies should be enough at that time of the year.

If a colony is infested then I would treat them rather than loose them, but their honey for that year would just be feed for nucs - I would not let it near my extractor. I think that is what the majority of beekeepers would do here as it is more in line with the legal demands upon honey. That is that the product is 'naturbelassen' - natural and without addative nor anything being removed. 
This leads to emotional discussions about fine filtering honey and 'adding' heat to dechrystalise it.

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## Calum

Oh *@#§@ 
lost 3 colonies today to robbing.
all three were on 2 magazines.
Threw the leftovers together in a site far far away there were not 10 half full frames of stores maybe a magazine full off bees, no open brood (removed by the bees) at least one queen made it.. 
I need a stiff drink.

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## gavin

Oh well, s&!$ happens as they say.  Only two lost though.  Robbing is one of those problems we all need to look out for, and so easy to set off.

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## Jon

Was that robbing by wasps or by stronger colonies?
I have never known a year as bad for wasps.

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## Calum

mine were other colonies..

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## Jon

> mine were other colonies..


I had that problem last year. I was feeding a couple of nucs without realising that a neighbouring colony was taking the syrup out as fast as I was feeding it in.
I ended up rescuing a handful of bees and a queen to an apidea.

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## Calum

threw the rest together, had a look this evening while I was giving them 4 frames of capped stores, a queen is laying, sixty frames of bees now fit on six.  :Frown:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Was that robbing by wasps or by stronger colonies?
> I have never known a year as bad for wasps.


Jon don't know if this might help but Xomite apis powder is a varroa treatment and I have noticed that wasps will never cross an entrance where the powder is.

Unfortunately robbing bees are not so easily discouraged 
But for wasps alone you can arrange for some powder at the entrance or in a tube attached to the entrance then just stick a wasp trap near the hive 
The wasps are mugs and they go there instead

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## Troutnabout

I have had a bit of a disaster and dont know what to do next.  I opened my hives yesterday to put on some feeding and the Hive #1, which has been the strongest hive all year was dead.  Not a drop of nectar in it - the last time I inspected the hives was the the 4th September and there was about about 30lbs/40lbs of unsealed honey in the supers plus the brood chamber - Now the combes are dry.  There are a handfull of sealed brood cells and still a few dozen cells with pollen in them.  Looking at the dead bees I doubt if there were enough left in the hive to cover both sides of 3 brood frames.  On the 28th September it was a fairly nice day and I saw bees flying in and out of the hive, so it looked okay then.  

I would have put money on Hive #2 which has been weak and troublesome all year to be the one that would not make it through till next year.  But when I opened it up it was fine, but very docile.  So I put on 6lts of heavy syrup.

Hive #3 - the swarm I hived in June is doing well and has given me 5 bars of honey.  It too got a feed of heavy syrup.  It is in a fairly exposed location and I was going to take it to the sheltered location beside hives 1 & 2, but now I am inclined to keep it away from hive #2, just in case.  

Any suggestions as to why hive #1 died?

Do I keep the remaining 2 hives well appart?

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## Jon

The activity on 28th September could have been robbing out of a dead colony.

Need to know a bit more before making a guess at what happened.

Are you in an area with Varroa? If so what was treatment.
Did the colony have a laying queen and brood on 4 September?
was there any streaking on the outside of the box, ie evidence of nosema.

If you are in a varroa area all the mites from the dead colony will now be in the other two colonies which have robbed it out.

I don't think it starved as you would have had a layer of dead bees a couple of inches deep.

I have had a colony collapse like this due to nosema over a few weeks and the same thing can happen with a bad varroa infestation.
varroa usually becomes a big problem in late summer as the brood area is reduced and the mite population is huge so every cell ends up with one or more mites in it.

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## Adam

An illustration to Jon's points above ... I posted about a problem I had with one colony here:-

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...damaged-colony

Syrup had gone in the top but by the time I realised that the colony was being robbed the super was empty - previously it had 4 ot 5 frames quite full.

The colony was moved back home at night and it looks like it is recovering but it doesn't have full brood box of stores. On the site where it stood, I left an empty hive with a couple of empty combs and there were quite a few bees hanging around the next morning - looking for pickings I think. More confirmation of robbing if ever I needed it.

Something I have noticed about robbing is that the robber and robbed hives are busy after all the other hives have stopped for the evening. In all innocence, the first time I saw it I thought "Wow these colonies are good, flying 'till nearly dusk" How wrong I was.

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## Troutnabout

Jon, thanks for the reply, my answers are in blue




> The activity on 28th September could have been robbing out of a dead colony.
> 
> Need to know a bit more before making a guess at what happened.
> 
> Are you in an area with Varroa? If so what was treatment. Not that I am aware of, have checked regularly - no sign of varoa this year or in any of the previous 5 years we have been keeping bees, treated earlier in year with varoa strips 
> 
> Did the colony have a laying queen and brood on 4 September?  New queen marked in early June, saw new eggs etc in early September
> 
> was there any streaking on the outside of the box, ie evidence of nosema.  Not aware of this, was not looking for it though 
> ...

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## Jon

Very hard to say what happened.
A swarm is highly unlikely although a hive which runs out of stores can completely abscond with all the bees even if there is some brood in it. I have seen this happen a couple of times.

Were there heaps of wax cappings on the floor? This can be a sign of robbing as the robber bees uncap and tear open the combs and aren't bothered about cleaning up.

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## Calum

Hi
I'm told that if the queen was weak or lost the colony is especially prone to being robbed.
Is there still capped drone cells (or even drones) in the colony - that c/would be an indication that the colony were unhappy with the queen or were queen cells started (could also be hard to tell as the robbers really go for the royal jelly). 

I have not given up on the remains of my rodded colonies - they were combined, given 4 frames full of food a queen is laying again.. I am a sucker for lost causes though.. .  .

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## Jon

> I am a sucker for lost causes though.. .  .


Me too, and you spend ten times more time nursing those weak colonies than you spend on the strong ones.

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## Calum

> Me too, and you spend ten times more time nursing those weak colonies than you spend on the strong ones.


yes, not any more. Went to see how they were getting along today. Being robbed again.
I saved the pollen frames and a couple that had some feed in them. End of the road for them.
From 26 three lost already, does not bode well for the winter...

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## Troutnabout

> Very hard to say what happened.
> A swarm is highly unlikely although a hive which runs out of stores can completely abscond with all the bees even if there is some brood in it. I have seen this happen a couple of times.
> 
> Were there heaps of wax cappings on the floor? This can be a sign of robbing as the robber bees uncap and tear open the combs and aren't bothered about cleaning up.


 I use open mesh floors, looks like this could be another episode in the great dissapearing bee's saga

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## Mellifera Crofter

> A swarm is highly unlikely although a hive which runs out of stores can completely abscond with all the bees even if there is some brood in it. I have seen this happen a couple of times.


Hi Jon,

Why would they abscond?  I've recently read that African bees (Scutellata, Capensis - can't remember) do that - but they leave to find better forage.  With our bees, particularly at this time of the year, that's not an option - or are they leaving to join a better-stocked hive?

Kitta

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## Jon

I don't know why they do it but it has happened to me a couple of times with nucs - most recently last year. The entire contents of the nuc, including the queen, were on a fence post a few feet away. This was a queen which had recently started to lay and there were eggs and brood in the box - not a pick of food though. 
My father has had this happen to him a couple of times as well. He calls it a hunger swarm. I remember him telling me about one of his which swarmed/absconded at 8.30 in the morning a few years ago. I don't really know if it could happen this late on in the year. The nuc I mentioned absconded in July.

Another reason you can get the entire hive absconding is overheating. This happens with apideas if you don't place them in the shade.
I had an apidea full of bees and brood abscond on that really hot day on 28th September. The apidea was in my front garden and I was on the doorstep trying to get rid of a guy who wanted to re-tarmac my drive. The bees were swirling around him as he left the premises. Fortunately I had the excluder strip on so the queen was trapped inside and they all came back 15 minutes later.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Jon.  So it's not just the African bees that take off - ours do it too.  I didn't know that.

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## Adam

*"I was on the doorstep trying to get rid of a guy who wanted to re-tarmac my drive".* He wasn't Irish by any chance was he? (Or maybe we send English Tarmacers over there)? My old neighbour used a shot-gun to get rid of the tarmacer that was pestering him. Bees maybe a better bet for us!

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## Adam

I had a mini-nuc swarm this year. It was a warm day and they had very little room. The clipped queen was found so I got them back.

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## Jon

> *"I was on the doorstep trying to get rid of a guy who wanted to re-tarmac my drive".* He wasn't Irish by any chance was he? (Or maybe we send English Tarmacers over there)? My old neighbour used a shot-gun to get rid of the tarmacer that was pestering him. Bees maybe a better bet for us!


Hi big selling point was that he wasn't one of the tarmacers you are thinking of -  but he certainly had an N. Irish accent which is not in itself surprising on a driveway in Belfast.
An Englishman claiming knowledge of the tarmac trade would be driven swiftly to the fern over here.

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