# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment > Over the edge >  Monsanto Saviorof the World - Who are Monsanto?

## Eric McArthur

Hi All

This material is in the public domain and is fact!  Have squint at the link. It makes for interesting viewing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvGdd...eature=related


Eric

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## gavin

10 minutes of my life wasted.  

So the video is relevant to your hatred of biotechnology companies.  What in the video is directly relevant to beekeeping?

Accusations that a large American corporation polluted the environment around its factory and was not properly called to account by American regulators.  It may or may not be true.  It wouldn't be surprising if it was, but this is just a set of accusations against an American company.

Before you start, and given your inability to remember what went before, I suppose that I should just re-iterate that I don't like large corporation power in agriculture either.

In your time as Scottish Beekeeper editor you had free reign to publish any kind of smear you could get your hands on.  This place is different.  Keep your posts relevant to beekeeping please.

This thread is now closed.

And opened again.  Simply because there was a need for a home for some stuff that was posted inappropriately elsewhere.

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## Eric McArthur

This post and the following ones were posted in various threads in the 'Anything and everything' forum.  After discussion between Moderators, it was decided to set some criteria for removing unhelpful, irrelevant or trouble-making posts to this 'Over the edge' area.  The intention is to return the form to polite, helpful discussion.  We seek everyone's cooperation with this and will use additional powers if such unhelpful posts continue.

Gavin (Admin and Moderator)

Gavin wrote:
I can brush off criticism!  
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Gavin
Does that include constructive criticism?
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Gavin wrote:
Your anti-Monsanto one was just that, anti-Monsanto. Nothing directly to do with beekeeping, but of course as you think that we are on the verge of turning over the food supply to their control you may see things differently. Tough.
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Gavin
Monsanto already have a virtual monopoly on American food supplies – check up on who owns the bulk if not all seed dealerships in America.  If the members of this forum are in denial of the intentions of Monsanto.  So be it!  
Considering that you stood up at a recent SBA AGM and castigated me for alleging that you were extremely pro GM, which you vehemently denied.  How can you possibly justify this almost obsessive need to cover up Monsanto’s anti-social and wicked behaviour relative to respected scientists like Arnpad Pusztai, Percy Schmeiser and the German pig farmers. To name but a few victims of Monsanto’s actions.
Simple question – Bernie Madoff (great name!) made off with the life savings of thousands of gullible folk in America.  When he has done has time would you invest in any new financial undertaking with him?  Monsanto has been convicted of the most heinous crimes against society and individuals and is still subject to litigation.  Have you no qualms about your future food security being in their hands?   The worst form of dogma is “I don’t know and I don’t want to know”!
Gavin wrote.
Pre-Eric we were achieving the aim of having rational, sensible debate in a better way than other places on the internet, I believe. To some extent having Eric here letting off stream has allowed us to expose his opinions to the debate that never properly came when he simply held forth in the SBA's magazine, so I've seen this open and rapid challenging of his misconceptions as a positive thing.
......................................
Hi Gavin
I understand this to mean that nobody had the temerity to even think about writing anything challenging or which might upset your sermons,   and I quote from your post of last night, -  ”I've already had one complaining email tonight from a forum watcher who was probably tipped off by a disgruntled poster.)  My God somebody complained! – “Off with his head”!  
As an aside I have in never deliberately set about disrupting this forum, which, in my opinion has a great future if open discussion is permitted.  it must have been noticed that anything ”white” I wrote was “black” and anything “black! I wrote was white, in the eyes of the trusty forum core!  The threads in question just took on a life of their own – as does any subject which fires the public imagination.
..................................................  ................................................
Gavin wrote:
In your time as Scottish Beekeeper editor you had free reign to publish any kind of smear you could get your hands on. This place is different. Keep your posts relevant to beekeeping please.
...............................
Gavin
The above accusation is actually malicious slander!  This is not the behaviour becoming of an impartial administrator.  I have asked you quite reasonably on a number of occasions now to table any of the offending literature, which I wrote as editor and we can discuss its merits or otherwise.  Note “Discuss”!  Otherwise an apology is in order as you have also impugned the integrity of the Scottish Beekeeper magazine and by association the SBA itself!

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## Jon

> Bernie Madoff (great name!) made off with the life savings of thousands of gullible folk in America.  When he has done has time would you invest in any new financial undertaking with him?  Monsanto has been convicted of the most heinous crimes against society and individuals and is still subject to litigation.  Have you no qualms about your future food security being in their hands?   The worst form of dogma is “I don’t know and I don’t want to know”!


Bernie Madoff is in his 70s and he was sentenced to 150 years so I would hazard a guess that your rhetorical question is likely to be academic.
Par for the course. As accurate as most of your other 'facts' such as the US and Bill Gates using GMOs to render the developing world sterile. What a load of old clap trap. How can anyone believe such stuff? I suspect there is a website somewhere which lists all that nonsense which has dinosaurs in its url?

http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/29/news...ion=2009062909

Leaving Ponzi schemes to the side for a minute, I think your logic is completely spurious.

Would you boycott the British Government because it used to be actively involved in promoting the slave trade.

What about buying a Fiat Punto. The Romans wreaked environmental havoc bringing their exotic plants and agriculture to Boadiceas's Island.
I hear it was a centurion who flicked himalayan balsam seeds over Hadrian's wall.

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## Neils

Snopes is normally pretty good at investigating Internet "truths"

Can we mandate the use of the quote facility as well?

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## Eric McArthur

Jon
Your ploy of rubbishing is the device of a defeatist - this is "Diccussion"?

Check this link out!  I have lots more!

http://nwoobserver.wordpress.com/tag...lation-agenda/

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Alex

Yiou seem a moderate individual keep plugging for discussion.  I am into that without sarcasm!

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Gavin wrote elsewhere:
Anyway, Eric had provoked me and I probably shouldn't have mentioned your name.
> I'll try to be more careful in future.
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Gavin
You are getting deeper and deeper into the mire.  Please explain this provocation.  I am still waiting on the editorial offensive material being tabled!
Eric

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## Jon

> Check this link out!  I have lots more!
> 
> http://nwoobserver.wordpress.com/tag...lation-agenda/
> 
> Eric


I am sure you have Eric but if they are like this one they are pure fantasy. Are you really as naive as you appear to be?
Do you believe all the daft claims posted all over the Internet? You seem to.
That is entirely your perogative of course but I think you will find most posters here have a greater appetite for the truth and robustness of the source material.

Here is another article from the same source NWO Observer which as far as I can see is Conspiracy Theory Central.

David Icke - surely no man would dare to question the validity of his word.
Why waste time with this rubbish on a thread discussing scientific debate.

What about the serious point I made re your earlier post? 
Are you really suggesting that ancient history should be used to dismiss a modern company such as the oft mentioned link between Bayer and IG Farben.
At what point in the past would you draw the line. That's why i mentioned the Romans as I am curious to tease out the inner workings of your logic.




> I have only submitted material that is in the public domain


A lot of what is in the public domain is clearly inaccurate or untrue.
Do you believe everything you read in the papers, even if written by an 'award winning' journalist!!
Why submit this stuff just because it suits your agenda.
This is propaganda rather than science.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Nellie 
The avenue of abuse is not being used by me - Gavin has had to aplogise for this elsewhere!  You asked for measured debate recently.  I responded!  You had the chance to use your obvious ability with rhetoric to rebutt or otherwise.  Where is this willingness to discuss- without rancou?  I have only submitted material that is in the public domain.
Eric

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Jon
This is discussion?  Google Artic seed Vault Rockefeller, Gates, Monsanto.

Eric
Jon wrote:
Originally Posted by Eric McArthur  
29/1/11
Beekeepers will be harvesting honey from a plethora of GM nectar bearing crops in the not too far distant future. This will of course be GM honey.
plethora [ˈplɛθərə]: superfluity or excess; overabundance

Hmm.
Apart from oil seed rape what other nectar bearing GMOs do you think are about to invade Scotland on the coat tails of Monsanto.

I don't think Scotland has the climate for Brazil Nuts, Soya, cotton or papaya!
Have you done your research Eric or is this just personal speculation?
let's have your list then.
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OSR, Phacelia, beans, peas, potatoes (Honey dew via aphid !), clover, Maize(pollen)
Soya, alfalfa (think Global Warming!).
Seed nurseries growing turnips, cabbage, in fact all the economically viable food crops. (all Monsanto controlled ultimately)

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## Jon

> OSR, Phacelia, beans, peas, potatoes (Honey dew via aphid !), clover, Maize(pollen)
> Soya, alfalfa (think Global Warming!).
> Seed nurseries growing turnips, cabbage, in fact all the economically viable food crops. (all Monsanto controlled ultimately)


Could I trouble you for some evidence?

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## Eric McArthur

Jon
Soya, alfalfa and maize are already GM'd, Monsanto will not stop until they have patents for everything we eat and wear  -try GM cotton,which is causing mass suicides of Indian farmers as their fields become choked with resistant weeds and the become bankrupt!  Fact!  Comments on the Arctic seed bank in private GM company control, please!

Eric

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## Jon

I think I already posted in another thread that the main problem I have with GM is companies like Monsanto.

Alfalfa and Soya will not grow outdoors in the UK.
Soya in particular is a delicate little crop in my experience and I have grown both.
If you need to invoke Global warming that sounds like a fairly weak argument to me and you will fall out with your climate change denier friend Mr Borderbeeman.

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## Neils

> Hi Nellie 
> The avenue of abuse is not being used by me - Gavin has had to aplogise for this elsewhere!  You asked for measured debate recently.  I responded!  You had the chance to use your obvious ability with rhetoric to rebutt or otherwise.  Where is this willingness to discuss- without rancou?  I have only submitted material that is in the public domain.
> Eric
> 
> Eric


Don't really have anything to say on Monsanto to be perfectly honest as I don't really see how it's relevant to beekeeping.  I'm a bit of a lefty so I'm all for robust legislation and regulation of industry and I don't see why multinationals should be any different which is about as much of an opinion as I can muster.

As for abuse, you've offered your opinion of the poster rather than the points or questions they raised on more than one occasion, but I'll take leaving that avenue of "discussion" for the time being as progress.

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## gavin

Where's that 'I agree' smiley thing when you need it?!

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## Neils

doh...

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## gavin

:Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: 

 :Embarrassment: 

and .....

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## Eric McArthur

> I think I already posted in another thread that the main problem I have with GM is companies like Monsanto.
> 
> Alfalfa and Soya will not grow outdoors in the UK.
> Soya in particular is a delicate little crop in my experience and I have grown both.
> If you need to invoke Global warming that sounds like a fairly weak argument to me and you will fall out with your climate change denier friend Mr Borderbeeman.


 ..................................................  .....

Are you then in denial of Climate Change?  Think BIG!  The experts tell us that twmperature are rising - how fast is the question!  I can disagree with somebody's idea but I do not try to belittle them.  LIve and let live!

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## Eric McArthur

Nellie wrote:
I'm a bit of a lefty so I'm all for robust legislation and regulation of industry and I don't see why multinationals should be any different.

Agreed!  But the ones's in question are not regulated. That is the root of the problem!
E

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## Eric McArthur

> Where's that 'I agree' smiley thing when you need it?!


Gavin wrote elsewhere:
Anyway, Eric had provoked me and I probably shouldn't have mentioned your name.
> I'll try to be more careful in future.
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Gavin
You are getting deeper and deeper into the mire. Please explain this provocation. I am still waiting on the editorial offensive material being tabled! 

What is the problem with presenting the alleged smear material for public viewing?

E

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## gavin

Not regulated?! 




> ..................................................  .....
> 
> Are you then in denial of Climate Change?  Think BIG!  The experts tell us that twmperature are rising - how fast is the question!  I can disagree with somebody's idea but I do not try to belittle them.  LIve and let live!


I fear that you are misunderstanding Jon again.  His point was not that he is a climate change denier (he most certainly is not), but that your campaigning colleague and media man Graham White wrote a comment at the Independent newspaper's site (on an article about the looming food supply problems).  That comment was a bit of a rant and exposed that he has a very shaky grip on the big environmental issues of the day.  I copied his rant here so just click if you want to know who the real climate change denier is.

You are getting very repetitive now and it is getting very tiresome.  The snippet of a private email you are bandying about was well-intentioned and the rest of it tried to assure the complainer that I was *not* saying that he had posted on this site.  That seemed to be the reason for his post, that he thought I had claimed he had posted here.  Sounds like he is equally as confused as you.

Regarding the quality of pieces in the SB - your reign there ended about 5 years ago I believe.  Ancient history. Not worth spending more time on.

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## Neils

> Nellie wrote:
> I'm a bit of a lefty so I'm all for robust legislation and regulation of industry and I don't see why multinationals should be any different.
> 
> Agreed!  But the ones's in question are not regulated. That is the root of the problem!
> E


That's a bit of a blanket statement to try and address. At what level is there a lack of regulation? Do the regulations exist but they simply aren't being enforced or are you saying that it doesn't exist full stop?

If you're suggesting that there isn't a single set of global regulation that applies to an organisation's operation regardless of the geographic location then I probably won't disagree with you if nothing else because I simply don't know enough about international law to offer even an opinion.

How do you get that implemented and enforced when supposedly educated people in a country like the UK scream blue murder over the influence of the EU let alone something imposed at a global level and who's responsible for enforcing that legislation? The Americans wont be bothered about trying to impose stricter regulation at any level, let alone global because they'll perceive it as hurting their (business) interests.

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## Eric McArthur

Gavin wrote on 31/1/11
Regarding the quality of pieces in the SB - your reign there ended about 5 years ago I believe.  Ancient history. Not worth spending more time on.[/QGaUOTE]
 ..................................................  ............................. 
 Gavin
This squirm is not good enough.  Your slander was committed on the 29/1/11 and is far from ancient history. Produce the alleged smears or aplogise.  Administrator are not above the law!  You have brought this forum into disrepute - unless yoiu can substatiate your allegation. 
Eric
..................................................  ........................
 Gavin wrote in the thread:  Monsanto Saviour of the World - Who are Monsanto?  started 29/1/11

"In your time as Scottish Beekeeper editor you had free reign to publish any kind of smear you could get your hands on. This place is different. Keep your posts relevant to beekeeping please".

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## Jon

> ..................................................  .....
> 
> Are you then in denial of Climate Change?  Think BIG!  The experts tell us that twmperature are rising - how fast is the question!  I can disagree with somebody's idea but I do not try to belittle them.  LIve and let live!


Even under worst case scenarios I don't think we will see fields of cotton and soya in Scotland in your lifetime or mine, let alone Brazil nuts.
Step back and look how frivolous an argument that is.
I am not trying to belittle your mate borderbeeman, just some of his arguments. Damned sure I will argue with him about climate change when he is talking the kind of reactionary rubbish more oft found in the pages of the Daily Mail or a petrochemical industry circular.

99% of the science supports the hypothesis that climate change is related to mankind's activities on the planet.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Nellie
GM crops were introduced as being no different from conventional crops during the Reagan administration in America.  Check up on Dan Qualye's speech about the introduction - he dwells strongny on the "no need for regulation" angle!  No paste ups!  Use Google for the speech!

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Jon wrote:
[QUOTE=Jon;3807]Actually Eric there is only one poster who tends to attack the person rather than the argument and unfortunately it's you. 


..................................................  ......  

Hi Jon
Try this for size!  I am still waiting on a show of these smears or an apology!
I will ignore your bias!
Eric
............................................
Gavin wrote in the thread:  Monsanto Saviour of the World - Who are Monsanto?  started 29/1/11
"In your time as Scottish Beekeeper editor you had free reign to publish any kind of smear you could get your hands on. This place is different. Keep your posts relevant to beekeeping please".

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## Jon

Eric.
Anyone who had the time or inclination to read through your posts could easily pick out dozens of abusive comments made against other people who post here. have a read back over your own posts to see what I mean. If you think you are without sin in this respect, then by all means start firing stones - but your posts are available for all to see so this smacks of hypocracy.
Personally I don't care as I have a thick skin. I prefer to debunk your arguments rather than have a pop back.

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## gavin

Eric

I am not prepared to prolong this into a massive review of your tenure as editor of the Scottish Beekeeper.  For one thing the 252 post thread on inbreeding here showed that with a massive effort we can sometimes persuade you that you were wrong, but any lessons learned are soon forgotten.  Why should I or anyone else now waste our time on articles you published 5, 10 even 15 years ago?  It is history.

If anyone doubts my comments on your quality as an editor, they just have to look back to yesterday.  You published this smear on SBAi, something, like many of your SB pieces, you picked up from a dodgy anti-corporate/anti-GM website:




> One long-standing project of the US Government has been to perfect a genetically-modified variety of corn, the diet staple in Mexico and many other Latin American countries. The corn has been field tested in tests financed by the US Department of Agriculture .....  
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Spermicides hidden in GMO corn provided to starving Third World populations through the generosity of the Gates foundation, Rockefeller Foundation and Kofi Annans AGRA or vaccines that contain undisclosed sterilization agents are just two documented cases of using vaccines or GMO seeds to reduce population.


What is that if not a smear - a smear on those developing the technology and a smear on the US government?  It was even a smear on Kofi Annan!!  Utterly bonkers, and the kind of thing that can get forums into trouble unless brought under control.  Self-control doesn't seem to be something you have in abundance.

This is what AGRA is about.  Most definitely a force for good.

http://www.agra-alliance.org/

Gavin

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## kevboab

Who really wants to read and tolerate the persistant tripe which you keep posting. It'd be half the battle if you wrote it yourself however its always cut n pasted utter rubbish. I could of swore i registered with a beekeeping forum to discuss, aid and assist matters related to BEES. Gavin has done a fantastic job of bringing the SBA out of the dark ages where someone is always available to answer a question or problem posed and should be praised for what he is doing for the SBA instead of being slated by the likes of you. You are a menace to this society and as such you should be banished to a dark corner which i'm sure Gavin could create for you as part of forum changes. 

So wind your neck in Eric and give us peace. Im sure im not alone in these thoughts.

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## Eric McArthur

Gavin
It would be simpler to take responsibility for your own actions and meet the request - put up the smear(s) or apologise!  

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Hi 
Reassuring to see that we have at least one intellectual on this forum!  Beautifully expressed!

Eric

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## Eric McArthur

Hi

We are not discussing forum content in this particular issue.  The issue in question is the slanderous remark made by Gavin relative to the Scottish beekeeper magazine!

Eric

 Eric I have reported this post as I consider it harassment and not in keeping with the ethos of this forum - popz

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## Neils

Eric, this is starting to get tiresome. Personally I'd prefer that if you and Gavin want to chuck mud at each other that you do it via email, private message, pigeon post or pistols at dawn for all I care and leave the rest of us to do what we were doing before. i.e. talk about bees and beekeeping.

It's clear that you're not actually interested in discussion and that you'll take every opportunity to make out just how hard done by you are whilst dishing out the kind of treatment in spades that you accuse others of directing to yourself and it's getting really, really boring.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Nellie
I am not enjoying this either!   If Gavin cares to contact me privately - fine! But his remarks relative to the smearing of indiviuduals while I was SB mag editor will only go away when he tables these alleged smears or apologises.  Where is Gavin anyway? - he has all sorts of folk jumping through hoops while he sits on the side lines.

Eric

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## Neils

with a bit of luck he's decided to ignore you in the hope you'll shut the <expletive> up about whatever it is between you two that's got your knickers in a twist and the vague hope you might actually be able to use this forum to talk about, I don't know, bees maybe instead.

Ultimately you can continue the stink the forum up but you're about a post away from hitting my ignore list where you can rant away in peace. Watching one cut and paste jockey have a melt down on a forum was mildly amusing, but the novelty's kind of wearing thin.

I've no idea whether anyone else actually cares about whether Gavin said this, or you said that, but I've half a mind to send my mum round and she'll quite happily bang your heads together and the rest of us can chat away while you sit in your rooms and think about what you may or may not have done.

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## gavin

Just go get some popcorn Neil!  No need for the Ignore button yet, nor to get your mum involved.  I have been seeking wise counsel before doing something to fix things, and action is coming.  The forum can't be left like this and something needs done to bring it back to the calm helpful place it has been for much of its 11 months or so (there is a birthday coming up folks - party time!!).  Thanks for the flurry of posts elsewhere today folks - I appreciate the effort people are making to get back to normal.  It was important to consult, as anything I do on my own would bring on yet more accusations I suspect.  Anyway, I have other commitments apart from sitting looking for trouble here, but I'll be back later!


So, these posts were moved from the 'Anything and everything' forum to here.  From now, a harder line will be taken with posts that push the boundaries, and posters who do so persistently (and there has been only one candidate so far) will be controlled, for the sake of the forum.

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