# General beekeeping > Bee health >  DWV spread 'manmade'

## fatshark

There's an interesting paper in Science but I can only now get the press release ...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-bvs012916.php

and the same thing in ABJ

Exeter scientists claim that DWV spread globally matches the spread of beekeepers, or more correctly settlers ... _i.e._ the virus hasn't spread from country to neighbouring country slowly, it's moved when we've moved bees.

Lena Wilfert (lead author) is quoted "_This is the first study to conclude that Europe is the backbone of the global spread of the bee killing combination of Deformed Wing Virus and Varroa. This demonstrates that the spread of this combination is largely manmade - if the spread was naturally occurring, we would expect to see transmission between countries that are close to each other, but we found that, for example, the New Zealand virus population originated in Europe. This significantly strengthens the theory that human transportation of bees is responsible for the spread of this devastating disease. We must now maintain strict limits on the movement of bees, whether they are known to carry Varroa or not. It's also really important that beekeepers at all levels take steps to control Varroa in their hives, as this viral disease can also affect wild pollinators._"

I confidently predict that the word 'spread' will be dropped or ignored by some commentators who will claim that DWV is manmade. And don't bother asking me about Zeka being spread by genetic engineered mosquitoes ...

Here's a summary of the paper.

_Moving bees, spreads disease_ ...

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## Greengage

I just logged on to post a link to  This http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=...d&e=36c4f411cf
But you beat me to it and summed it it very well. :Confused:

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## Jon

Just goes to show that the movement of bees accompanied by health certificates is hardly rigourous whenever the health certs do not take virus into account.

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## drumgerry

And in my opinion no matter the regulatory framework that's in place the arrival of SHB is inevitable so long as there are bee imports.

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## fatshark

I've had a chance to read the paper now ... there are a few interesting points made in it, though perhaps nothing too surprising for the readership here. It's certainly good evidence for the 'ban imports' brigade ... DWV is globally spread already, but what about other viruses - unsuspected and definitely untested - that might be transmitted in a similar way. 

It's also interesting that they find DWV in Australia ... this directly contradicts the recent studies from Australia that have failed to detect this virus in their bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

> And in my opinion no matter the regulatory framework that's in place the arrival of SHB is inevitable so long as there are bee imports.


Hi Drumgerry
An Importer of bees from Italy has openly said on this forum he is not concerned about SHB 
Also indirectly advertising his price for Italian package bees
Why is that allowed ?

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## drumgerry

I don't recall that DR to be honest.  And as for being allowed I'm not the person to be asking

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## Calluna4u

> Hi Drumgerry
> An Importer of bees from Italy has openly said on this forum he is not concerned about SHB 
> Also indirectly advertising his price for Italian package bees
> Why is that allowed ?


You might interpret it that way but it was a discussion of the economics of the issue, unless you seek to have that kind of debate shut down or censored.

If I WAS advertising I would not be choosing to do it here as, frankly, this is not a place where I would have thought ANY potential clients were to be found (I was wrong, way wrong, in that assumption btw).

Every precaution is taken to avoid SHB. However, as I have said before, and it appears you want to use it as a weapon against my own position (c'est la vie)....I do NOT fear SHB personally at all. Is only one opinion acceptable? Are the vast majority of people with SHB, even in far more favourable climates than ours, all wrong to have had experience of it and dismiss it as not important? 

I well appreciate the tone of this forum, and that hostility to imports or even long distance moves, plus making it sound as scary as possible (SHB that is) is intended to galvanise opinions, but a prevailing view here is not really indicative of opinions as a whole, where there are many views held, of all possible colours.



ps...also...please do not go thinking/implying/or whatever that my OWN opinions about SHB in ANY way make the precautions taken, the care taken, and the distant sourcing, any less than they would be if my view was different. They do not colour the issue whatsoever, especially as almost without exception these bees are not for me.

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## mbc

You have convincingly argued that shb isn't really to be feared, this may be true, however, the thread is about viruses.
Also, however benign you believe shb would be in our climate, the authorities will almost certainly deal with the initial incursion with draconian measures which will be much to be feared by the unfortunate beekeepers forced to face them.

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## drumgerry

Apologies for the thread drift MBC - it was me who brought the subject of SHB into it

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## Calluna4u

> You have convincingly argued that shb isn't really to be feared, this may be true, however, the thread is about viruses.
> Also, however benign you believe shb would be in our climate, the authorities will almost certainly deal with the initial incursion with draconian measures which will be much to be feared by the unfortunate beekeepers forced to face them.


Yes indeed. Exactly what the unfortunate Italian beeks in Calabria are going through. They have a bee export trade from other parts of the country to protect, and they are doing it with zeal.

Have caught a drift that the UK position may be becoming more pragmatic however, and that infested status might not be long in being declared after an initial incursion, depending on what they find. 

However........

The thread IS a virus thread....so apologies to all for jumping in.

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## mbc

> Apologies for the thread drift MBC - it was me who brought the subject of SHB into it





> The thread IS a virus thread....so apologies to all for jumping in.


Lol. I don't think I've ever read a thread on this forum which has strictly stayed on course, and if it drifts to any purpose Gavin usually does an excellent job of putting posts where they're supposed to be or in a new thread.
We've touched on this subject of strains of virus many times during discussions on varroa resistant bees. Across the bay from me on the lleyn peninsula many beekeepers have been treatment free (or using a very light touch)for nearly a decade and their bees survive despite having varroa,  however it's not magic and queens from there don't do better than the run of the mill when parachuted into another area.

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## SDM

A quick question to all saying this report is grounds for an import ban. What disease is it you fear the spread of from imports to the UK ?

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## mbc

E bola,  zika, bird flu, and any deadly to my bees strain of virus.

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## SDM

> E bola,  zika, bird flu, and any deadly to my bees strain of virus.


Ok, anyone with a disease that importing bees could carry .
I'm simply interested to know what disease we will import from the countries we allow.

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## The Drone Ranger

Yes I should have left it
Apologies all round and in particular to C4u whose £88 packages of Italian bees represent incredible value
By driving those back personally from Italy he is providing an essential service to Britain's farmers and beekeepers
Those are not available yet so please don't keep calling just send a PM and you will be advised
Sometimes altruism can be misinterpreted  by the cynical amateur like myself
Bee movements are good they introduce new genetics so the further the better
I can't see why people who import bees shouldn't expect to still be popular and I know you are
I have rejoined the Scottish Beekeeping Association so  I should be better informed in future




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## drumgerry

Ok so we don't have to stick to the viruses theme then.   I think the bigger picture is something that should be considered. My personal belief is that we should have a self sufficient and sustainable supply of bees here in Scotland and to me that implies no imports.  I say Scotland as I'm Scottish and we're a Scottish forum. How the rest (dare I say rump?!) of the UK operates is up to them


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## The Drone Ranger

I'm thinking of taking a more positive view going forward
If you cant beat them join them
It's very exciting to know that I can buy imported queens and bees from now on
All with a clear conscience
The local gene pool could do with a shake up
I've left it a bit late in life to have a beekeeping epiphany
But who knows I might be the New Brother Adam of the North

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## The Drone Ranger

Crikey just checked out the Queen prices on a top website £40
I might be cheaper to go and get my own at source 
Where is Caucasia anyway ?

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## Calluna4u

> Crikey just checked out the Queen prices on a top website £40
> I might be cheaper to go and get my own at source 
> Where is Caucasia anyway ?


Home range the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

Historically these were a much imported bee, even into Scotland but more so into northern England. They were bred here for many years by Mountain Gray apiaries, which I think were in Yorkshire around Hull someplace (might be wrong in that).

Not greatly used since the 1980s.....and mostly used up to the 60's.

In extreme cases they made so much propolis that the frames looked like they had been dipped in toffee.


Gray, very gentle, but slow in spring, and as they were unsuited to OSR, were  gradually superceded by a liking for carnica. Not great winterers, seemed to have a serious nosema susceptibility and acarine could be a problem. No experience of them in the post varroa era.

Still see Caucasian echos in the local bees, the most obvious being intensely melanisitic characteristics in some of the the drones. Jet black with even the wings being tinted dark. Have not seen that character in any other race.

Most interesting variant involving it I ever saw was out near Crieff where some of our young queens outmated, and in the NEXT generation we threw up both Caucasian traits AND Cordovan colouration in the same hives, I think it was 5 of them in one group. Drones were weird too, green, yellow, salmon, and chestnut eyes all in one apiary close to the historic library at Innerpeffray.

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## The Drone Ranger

Georgia! thats a bit far off
Crieff looks more promising
If I could just pin down that green eyed gene what a great USP
The propolis would be handy for the health food shops as well

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## fatshark

Don't worry DR ... that's all possible with transgenics ... here's a fruitfully, but you could do the same thing with bees and a bit of effort

fly_fluor.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Kind of on topic because they probably used a virus to splice some genes from school crossing lady into the fly
I could do with something like that for monitoring queens leaving mininucs

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## SDM

I love the fact that all the Amm fanboys ignore the fact that the black bee was reintroduced to the UK.
Where were yours imported from. ?

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## fatshark

> A quick question to all saying this report is grounds for an import ban. What disease is it you fear the spread of from imports to the UK ?


I'm not sure if 'fear' is the right word, but I'd prefer to see more caution about importing stuff ... particularly when we either don't test at all, or don't know what to test for. Over the last year or two there have been reports of new strains of DWV, some virulent, others apparently avirulent. There's a lot of paralysis viruses being reported in some stocks. None of these things are tested for in any of the packages, nucs, queens etc. that are imported. 

It's clear from human disease - AIDS, Ebola, SARS - that global transport has played *the* primary role in widespread transmission. From identification it took just a few months for SARS to spread to 5 continents. Thankfully, it was a pretty poorly infectious virus, only causing ~8000 cases of which 10% died. Natural barriers to disease transmission ... isolation, oceans, absence of suitable vectors etc. are all bypassed by rapid global transport.

A particularly good example is measles in Fiji. In the days of sailing boats, carrying relatively small numbers from India to Fiji, the trip took so long that patients incubating the disease either died or recovered during the journey, and those they infected likewise, until all the people of the ship had either succumbed or were no longer incubating the virus. Once they introduced steamships - carrying many more people, much faster - they had a a measles epidemic on Fiji that killed ~50,000 people (in 1875 ish ...), one third of the population.

With current checks, a new (or enhanced virulence) bee pathogen that evolved on the other side of the world (or at least the other side of Europe) would be here within weeks or months, possibly before those at or near the source were even aware it was present. Those arguing for unrestricted movement of any livestock around the world, or justifying it's OK because it's what we've always done, need to appreciate the potential consequences.

So, I fear the diseases we don't know about ... they'll be here before you know it.

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## SDM

How about unrestricted movement around Scotland? Any of your mysterious unknown viruses are just as likely to develope in the UK first. So of course no sales at all should be allowed. Drones should have to be culled or clipped to stop them hive hopping around the country ( god forbid into England) no moving to the heather or osr. Isolation zones around apiaries.
Who knows what's out there. 
Fear of the unknown, I love it.

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## SDM

What's to say that it won't be Beekeepers that are the carriers of your unknown killers. Beekeepers globally should be confined to their apiary, passports withdrawn and certainly an absolute ban on Beekeepers coming into contact with other Beekeepers.
After all that's no less possible than your imaginary viruses.
Do you sleep in a germ tent ? I doubt you sleep at all with so much to worry about.

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## mbc

> I love the fact that all the Amm fanboys ignore the fact that the black bee was reintroduced to the UK.
> Where were yours imported from. ?


Mine are a mixture of what was originally here and whatever genes successfully made it into the gene pool, as far as I know. 
In my opinion the tone of your posting is unpleasant trolling, and being a fan of rare breeds is a far superior position to being a nasty and pointlessly disparaging sort of person.

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## SDM

> E bola,  zika, bird flu, and any deadly to my bees strain of virus.


Well, to be fair I'm getting a lot of pointless answers from those against imports, like yours and the one from fatshark , both spouting your ignorance based fear as reason for an import ban. but I noticed you didn't see fit to critique DR for his blatant sarcasms, so I'll assume insulting the importers is fine just not the other way round. Do you simply accuse anyone who disagrees with you of trolling ?

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## SDM

Perhaps next time you're faced with a question like" what viruses is it you're scared of being imported".
If you don't have an answer, try not giving one.

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## The Drone Ranger

Me sarcastic ?
SDM how could you say such a cruel thing?
I thought I was pointing out that the purpose of imports are to make money for the importer not to save Britain from running out of bees, farmers having to starve in the streets or improving the quality of UK bee stocks
I will try to be less obtuse in future  :Smile: 


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## greengumbo

> Perhaps next time you're faced with a question like" what viruses is it you're scared of being imported".
> If you don't have an answer, try not giving one.


Yeah Fatshark ! Time you got educated about viruses. Go read a book or something  :Wink:

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## drumgerry

"Spouting your ignorance"???? And this isn't trolling? This from the person I had to block on Facebook after an aggressive message saying I had called you a liar.  Gavin - this feels like Doris and Eric all over again......

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## mbc

> Perhaps next time you're faced with a question like" what viruses is it you're scared of being imported".
> If you don't have an answer, try not giving one.


Perhaps I'll answer however I like within the rules of the forum, and what part of "deadly to my bees strain of virus" are you confused by?
A new variant of a known virus is just as potentially damaging as a novel one.
I'm glad we're not conversing face to face, I get the feeling you'd put me in an arm-lock, cuff me and give me a shoeing on the floor for holding an opinion different to yours.

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## The Drone Ranger

Is there a CSI virus or is that just something I got off the Telly ?

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## gavin

Just briefly stopping by ....  loved the order to fatshark to go read a book  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin: 

Worth pointing out also that mbc isn't a small guy so could likely defend himself quite effectively.

OK, we've had some challenging posts on this thread.  C4U might have been on the wind-up when he was telling us of new orders achieved but I value his openness and think his posts add a lot to the discussion on here.  Was it blatant advertising?  Probably not, and I'd much rather have that information (on costs and the like) in this particular public domain than not.  He knows, you know, that his views on some beekeeping issues are poles apart from mine yet we get on very well.  So let's all of us try.

I intended (and intend) to give SDM a straight answer to his question.  He may want to listen.  Perhaps tonight, I'm off out now to enjoy the rare sunshine.

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## Calluna4u

> I thought I was pointing out that the purpose of imports are to make money for the importer


Well I don't know about others but I am pretty hard to offend and actually found your deadpan antiposition quite amusing. Surely there is room for some humour here or are we all sour faced old fuddyduddies that 'are not amused'......

However......to pick up on the one part above.....you have no idea what my costings are and not going to repeat the selling price here either for fear of being accused of advertising again.

Suffice to say, on the ONE import that was Scottish Enterprise and Perth and Angus council supported I had to provide full details of the costings and the assistance was calculated against that. When the hard weather aid was initially mooted as possible restocking help (in the end it was not) everything was prepared for total transparency on costs. The margin allowed was costs only, and we selected a relatively expensive source (still the one we are using) as it provided the comfort I insisted upon for safety, and this was even before the discovery of SHB in Calabria. The price today is not greatly changed, although I managed to negotiate the buying price a LITTLE better. I will NEVER grow fat on package bee imports, and you quite conveniently choose to ignore our breeding project which is designed to reduce any need we may have for imported packages, though I will always want to be able to bring in breeder stock I see as of benefit and that will enhance our stock.

Also....to Fatshark etc.....please do not think this aligns me with those who seek to dismiss viruses as an issue. Quite perversely (as Fatshark will know) a few of my package bee customers are buying precisely because their bees were succumbing to viruses, and the new stock seems less susceptible. Give it a couple of years for a definitive answer on that however...... But for now they are buying in package bees they see as better than their local types at handling the problem. (Just for forum info....this is not in Scotland)

I take virus seriously, but you cannot go around banning everything because of unknown unknowns. Asian hornet (which actually is one thing that does cause me concern especially in the south) arrived in Europe in pottery apparently. Other things arrived in wood. Do we seek to ban these too? To be fair to Fatshark, he is uniquely well informed and his writings are to be ignored only if you are rash.

Viruses ARE an issue, but the potent variant could just as easily arise or be dispersed from a UK origin, indeed more domestic bees are traded than imported if you examine the whole market including the amateur sector. Old drum, but I'll beat it again....this is one of the least safe origins for bees due to the lack of impartial and/or official pre sale inspection and certification.

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## madasafish

Hmm

I see no point in trying to prevent the spread of viruses through imports when people "owning" bees don't have to register on Beebase.

How will you control an outbreak of ANY disease if you don't know where all the bees are?
Any *Serious* attempt to control disease and viruses must start with what should be under local control. The fact that it does not shows beekeepers  (i.e read National BeeKeeping Associations and the Bee Units)are not serious about disease control. And the fact that individual beekeepers can do what they like when medicinally treating bees only reinforces that view.

If bee keepers were serious about control of disease, they would ensure all bee hives were registered and only approved (and effective) disease treatments were allowed.

Edit : as it is, officially I am treatment free.

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## The Drone Ranger

Apologies C4u "and you quite conveniently choose to ignore our breeding project which is designed to reduce any need we may have for imported packages"

It wasn't convenience I assure you
My omission might have occurred for any number of reasons but I think the principle ones were

I wasnt and still amn't (is that a word) fully aware of the extent of your breeding with bees
Also I was trying to dodge a very large elephant which was in the room at the time

I do hope I won't be blackballed on account of this when I apply for membership of the BIC (bee importers club)
I have used your pens for poking holes in things, and even writing on occasion, for many years man and boy
BIBBA are possibly already unhappy with me and so I thought of just turning my coat

Perhaps there is some hope of a career hunting down feral farmers who will be roaming the countryside if bee imports have to stop
I saw an American program Dog and Beth advertised, they seem to do pretty well financially
(I'm not entirely sure which one is the dog they both looked a bit rough to me) 

Anyway say no more I am packing my DR Zhivago hat in preparation for the frosty wastelands of Crieff

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## SDM

> I intended (and intend) to give SDM a straight answer to his question.  He may want to listen.  Perhaps tonight, I'm off out now to enjoy the rare sunshine.


I look forward to it, as that's why I asked the question, it certainly was not to incite public declarations of mysophobia.

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## SDM

> "Spouting your ignorance"???? And this isn't trolling? This from the person I had to block on Facebook after an aggressive message saying I had called you a liar.  Gavin - this feels like Doris and Eric all over again......


We could simply link the post and see which one of us was talking through his .......

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## drumgerry

And there you go again SDM.   You're maybe missing the point that we don't really put up with people who go around insulting people willy nilly.  Maybe you'd be better off on beekeepingforum where stuff like that is the norm.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I look forward to it, as that's why I asked the question, it certainly was not to incite public declarations of mysophobia.


I blame my myopia on Charlie's angels

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## fatshark

Mysophobia ... you're right ... I'm living a lie. I'm also following greengumbo's advice and reading the Ladybird book of _"Anthropogenic factors and viral pandemics"_. Interesting stuff. 

Calluna4u is correct, you can't go banning everything just because there might be something out there. However, although the local trade comments - scale and potential for spreading nasties (the Ladybird book keeps the words simple which is a great help for me) - are also broadly correct, the evidence is overwhelming in human and animal disease that long distance transport has contributed to many if not most of the global problems we now face. Large scale rapid transport breaches natural geographic barriers, putting susceptibles into contact with the infected and ensuring the widespread distribution of new and emerging pathogens. This is undeniable ... at least by anyone who has read the Ladybird book of _"Anthropogenic factors and viral pandemics"_.  

Despite the best advice from the Ladybird book I *still* can't name the viruses I'm worried about ... which is sort of the point. If I could name them I might know what to do about them, or know a man who can, and it would certainly be possible to test for them. Calluna4u makes the point that there are other viral diseases currently making an impact. We don't know where these came from and we don't know how significant they are going to be. The point is you don't know what's coming next, but it is certainly coming. We have all the parts in place ... high and increasing demand, relatively inexpensive, relatively poorly regulated, certainly easy to bypass ... but that's not all. This 'supply' is meeting a demand from that in some cases are unlikely to identify new diseases, or distinguish them from old ones, and may well not be able to control or contain their stock.

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## gavin

Here's one example of what happens when you go looking for the unknown once some technology comes along that allows you search for viral sequences in an unbiased manner.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0057459

G.

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## Calluna4u

> Here's one example of what happens when you go looking for the unknown once some technology comes along that allows you search for viral sequences in an unbiased manner.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0057459
> 
> G.


Fair enough...but is it important?

fwiw... a beekeeper I know is in the process of purchasing 200 Spanish nuclei. Note.....nuclei....not packages.


ps...it will be fully legal, and its not in Scotland.

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## SDM

> And there you go again SDM.   You're maybe missing the point that we don't really put up with people who go around insulting people willy nilly.  Maybe you'd be better off on beekeepingforum where stuff like that is the norm.


Shall I post the " aggressive" message now? Or would you prefer to simply stop lying ? 
Try keeping your posts to the thread subject, instead of about the posters( and I'll take my own advice from here on and simplg ignore you).

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## SDM

> Here's one example of what happens when you go looking for the unknown once some technology comes along that allows you search for viral sequences in an unbiased manner.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0057459
> 
> G.


Surely the most relevant thing there is about TuRSV..
How exactly do you plan to defend your bees against every potential global vector of these( as yet)  unknown  viruses?
Nobody's denying the contents of the report that started this, but what can be done about it ?
When the next pandemic hits us it will for sure be flown around the world to an airport near you. Should we shut all the airports today ?  You simply can't make the world a smaller place anymore. We take sensible precautions against the known and let the fatsharks worry about the unknown.
To be fair, your bees best chance of surviving the next killer will be that old favourite, genetic diversity.

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## drumgerry

> Shall I post the " aggressive" message now? Or would you prefer to simply stop lying ? 
> Try keeping your posts to the thread subject, instead of about the posters( and I'll take my own advice from here on and simplg ignore you).


Post what you like but it will, as it should be, be deleted as meaningless to others on this forum.  Your singular lack of awareness of the aggressive tone you take in what you type is there for all to see.  To say nothing of the insults.  

Gavin - if you're reading this please delete all of my posts in this thread.  They contribute nothing to the topic and I'm sorry I got involved.  And please be assured any thread with the name SDM attached to it will remain free of my contributions from now on

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## fatshark

> Surely the most relevant thing there is about TuRSV..
> How exactly do you plan to defend your bees against every potential global vector of these( as yet)  unknown  viruses?
> Nobody's denying the contents of the report that started this, but what can be done about it ?
> When the next pandemic hits us it will for sure be flown around the world to an airport near you. Should we shut all the airports today ?


Of course not, but we should try and mitigate the risks ...

Perhaps we should just add an import levy to every imported colony to fund honey bee pathogen research*. Part of this could also go to BDI or the equivalent to compensate beekeepers who might lose colonies in the future. The amount has to be meaningful ... and be designed to achieve two things, it should provide proper funding for research and a realistic buffer for the insurers. How about 250 per nuc or equivalent, and half that for queens? By 'we' I mean Europe. I can't remember the numbers but reckon that would raise ~10M/annum ... but there would be an inevitable reduction in imports (perhaps 90%).

A benefit would be that it would both be a disincentive (but not stop altogether, so allowing the all important genetic diversity, bringing in of breeder queens etc) to large-scale imports and a boost to queen rearing activities in the UK. Locally reared queens - including the initiative by C4U - would inevitably become more valuable, individuals and BKA's would be incentivised to run properly organised queen rearing/nuc producing activities, commercials would benefit by generating significant revenue from activities other than honey production. The quality of UK beekeeping should increase.

Perhaps EU law doesn't allow this? 

But then, we might not be in the EU that much longer ... in which case all bets are off.


* and perhaps because of spillover between honey bees and other pollinators, it should both fund pollinators more generally and be levied on imported bumblebees

PS I'd like to thank GG for the information on other Ladybird books I should consider reading ... I particularly liked this one:

c334cf4014e84eed85fd72ee564d518c.jpg

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## SDM

You want Europe to levy bees moved within Europe ? Or do you mean imports from outside europe ?
Should we levy fruit sellers for the next potential pest they bring in.
Or irresponsible holiday makers and business men for risking our national health with their irresponsible business dealings and vacations ? 
After all think of the good that could be done with money raised from that . and the global carbon emissions reductions from everyone being too scared  to leave the house.

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## The Drone Ranger

I clipped this from an article fatshark provided the link to

"We found a direct relationship between
virus frequency and the number of mites to which recipient
bees were exposed. The more donor mites that were intro-
duced per cell, the greater the incidence of virus that was
detected in the recipient bee brood. This was most evident in
bees exposed to four mites, which resulted in 100% infection"

Although that is not a complete solution it can help
I believe using a Snelgrove board (snore, not again) might help as well

I'm looking for the Ladybird book of Sarcasm GG is it still in print ?  :Smile: 


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## SDM

I know that might treatments are compulsory in some countries, usually where there is no real brood break.
Given the above there may be an argument for compulsory treatment in this country. Since the greater the incidence of a virus , the greater the likelihood of a more deadly mutation occurring. I would consider that a sensible precaution.
Much as my previous post used the slightly ridiculous notion of effectively shutting down global transport, given that communicability of disease is much higher in humans because of our social nature. If fatsharks suggestion is a good idea in bees it must be at least advisable in humans.

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## Calluna4u

You are right Fatshark...EU law would not allow that, and it would inevitably bring tit for tat measures against UK produce. It would also not raise any research funds, as the trade would simply stop or go underground. It can only be properly managed with a structure in place that does not make the incentive to circumvent it large enough for it to go that way.

Its an old story, but heard in the rather distant past, when rules were prohibitive, of bees being loaded on fishing boats at Portpatrick for the journey, unsupervised, across the North Channel. Make it TOO hard and it will happen. I also remember that trade being OK, as a youngster I attended a talk by Ian Maxwell about taking bees across to NI for pollination work (apples I think.)

Leaving the EU would work for a short while, though the damage to UK trade from erecting barriers could be pretty hefty, and we have at all times to remember.....we are of very minor importance, no matter how important such things are to US. I deeply resent the UKIPisation of UK policy, and in a way I hope the referendum goes against UK membership, not because that's what I want, but because it would precipitate another independence vote and we can get back in as more wholehearted and co-operative EU members than is the case at present. 

A point on Fatsharks post no.44 as well. You highlight the bees going to people who might not recognise a novel strain of a virus or other disease issues if they are not trained to do so or have relevant experience. Do you think ANYONE is a nailed on cert to do so? I certainly would not be putting my hand up as one who felt confident to recognise if something was a variant of a previous condition. I know when I have a problem, but cannot say for sure I would know what that problem is exactly. I can rest perfectly assured in my own fallability, and only need to go back to the start of the EFB episode to know that to be the case. Not proud we did not recognise it. I have little confidence that, one or two types excepted, I would even know what virus it was, never mind if it was a new variant.

One great thing came from it. The active inspectorate and the relationship we all now can use with SASA. At least cases of doubt have a route to go down, where ordinary beeks like ourselves can use the services of Fiona and her excellent lab, and people like Fatshark are around to do what we are just not equipped to do....the research and the science.

Amateur beekeepers, professional beekeepers, the authorities, and the scientists all operate with their own agendas, but nonetheless we are a continuum, and in Scotland we are probably getting it more right than other places. Its our job to keep bees and provide honey to the public...........the amateurs are *often* more interested in it as a conservation exercise.............the scientists pursue information about all manner of things bee related.....and the authorities are left holding the reins of all these things and trying to achieve a balanced outcome. None of us will get exactly what we would like out of things, and that's just the way it will, and probably should, be.

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## fatshark

> Do you think ANYONE is a nailed on cert to do so? I certainly would not be putting my hand up as one who felt confident to recognise if something was a variant of a previous condition. I know when I have a problem, but cannot say for sure I would know what that problem is exactly. I can rest perfectly assured in my own fallability, and only need to go back to the start of the EFB episode to know that to be the case. Not proud we did not recognise it. I have little confidence that, one or two types excepted, I would even know what virus it was, never mind if it was a new variant.


[lots snipped from the above ... ]

I too wouldn't have the skill to recognise many. But you - and I suspect many reading this forum - are very experienced and would know something was amiss and would know what to do about it. But SBA members, SBAi contributors/readers and those involved and engaged with BKA activities aren't where all these bees end up. Lots - and you may have insight into what proportion - go to the 'wanna(have)bees' ... those keen to 'save the bees' by having a hive or two at the bottom of the garden and turning the tap in late-August to jar the honey. These are the ones who don't know about SASA or appreciate the excellent services that are available there ... these are the ones who account for a lot of the churn in beekeeping associations (join one year, leave the next), the colonies that "just died", the apiaries not registered on Beebase etc. 

Within a mile or so of my new house I'm aware of 4 hives with supers on, in two separate apiaries, none of which have been looked at in the last 2 years. There are bound to be more. 

We all have a responsibility that goes further than our desire to keep bees ... we are producing food for consumption and we're working with 'livestock' that need care and attention, both to achieve the former and to avoid damaging the enjoyment and livelihood of others, or of other things in the environment.

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## fatshark

And on a lighter note ... what's the problem with this?

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## busybeephilip

> And on a lighter note ... what's the problem with this?


Huh....journalists flying to get a story

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## busybeephilip

Lets move on to Superinfection exclusion in relation to DMV   oops I mean DWV

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## The Drone Ranger

> And on a lighter note ... what's the problem with this?


Misprint that should read "Transformed wing virus"
maxresdefault.jpg

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## busybeephilip

Its just a non lethal genetic mutation, perhaps a knockout or transgene gone wrong

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## Jon

> And on a lighter note ... what's the problem with this?


Those fact checking journalists just love their hoverflies

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