# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Foundationless frames and fishing line

## Jon

Anyone else having a go with these this year?
I got the idea initially from a post made by Steve (Rosie) on the old bbka forum.

frame-natural drawn comb fishing line.jpg comb-fishing line.jpg

I worked about a dozen frames between a few colonies last year and they seemed to work really well. They draw out the cell size they want at the time, usually drone but not always.
Sometimes a frame is drawn out and laid up within a couple of days.
I always place one of these between two existing drawn frames in the middle of the brood nest so that the bees are forced to draw comb parallel to existing frames.

I bought 50 Thorne second deeps flatpack for £28 from their stand at the UBKA conference in March and I reckon that with the nails and the 30lb fishing line they cost about 60p each.
I made up half of them this afternoon.

But the main advantage is lovely clean comb.

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## Neils

I've gone back to foundation largely this year. I leave them supers to draw without foundation.

My reasoning is simply that I want the drone brood in one place, I found my 14x12s with frame wire only worked rather well if you don't mind the odd bit of bees doing what they like. Fears of 14x12 frames disintegrating, with or without foundation remain unfounded.  Each hive gets 10 frames of foundation and one "free", the next hive might not actually start drawing the comb there first, all worker, naturally.

The difference between foundation wax and what they draw themselves though is stark. The pure, white wax is beautiful.

A colony used to foundation will typically start drawing drone cells if you give them foundation less frames in an established colony, my swarm started at the back of a warm way oriented colony where the foundationless frame is and it is all worker cells, I'm leaving it there for now as its stores but I'm starting to move it inwards and will deal with it later as it is also totally unwired, an oversight on my part.

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## Jon

I can see how it would be more awkward with 14 by 12 due to the extra weight and the risk of the comb getting damaged during inspections.
It hardens up pretty well once a couple of generations of brood have been reared in it.

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## Rosie

Although I like to put 3 frames of fishing line/starter strips in every decent colony, I have never tried it with my 14x12s.  This is because I have been concerned that the tension in the line would bend the long side bars but if it's working for Jon I must have been wrong.  To get drone comb in 14x12s I always cut a few triangles of wax out of a normal pre-wired sheet of foundation, so removing all the wax from between strands of wire.  It has always worked very well apart from the fact that I have not been benefiting from the saving in foundation costs.  You get neat alternating patterns of worker and drone cells filling the triangles between the wires.

Thanks Jon for crediting me with the fishing line trick but I got it originally from Dave Cushman although I have modified the method a bit.  The triangle trick is all my own though. :Cool: 

Rosie

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## Jon

Sorry, it's Neil with the 14 by 12s. Mine are all standard deeps, 14 by 8 and it works fine with those.

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## EmsE

I tried this last year and was happy in general with how the bees drew the comb down. One thing I won't repeat though is putting 3 of the empty frames together to be drawn out. I did this last year when I unexpectedly had a swarm to house. I didn't have any foundation available and just 2 drawn combs with stores in which I decided to put at either end. The result was 3 deep frames with comb interwoven between them meaning I couldn't separate them to inspect. They were separated a few weeks ago and are being worked out of the hive. As they have some stores in, I can't justify removing them just yet but have learnt my lesson in placing them between frames of drawn comb.

As I've more drawn comb this year I shouldn't have that problem (she says :Stick Out Tongue: )

I've put 2 in one of my hives so far this season, one is mainly drone which suits me fine as it will hopefully reduce the drone brood in the other frames, and a good solid block will be good for the drone removal. The other is worker cells. 

If the frames are put into the top box of the double brood system, the bees draw the comb right down to the bottom bars, making it that bit more secure than those in the bottom box where the comb just falls short of the bottom bars.

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## Neils

> I can see how it would be more awkward with 14 by 12 due to the extra weight and the risk of the comb getting damaged during inspections.
> It hardens up pretty well once a couple of generations of brood have been reared in it.


 I think stories of the fragility of 14x12s are mainly spread by those who don't like them. I made a thread on here including photos about how I do mine and they work for me. The frame with no wires is very fragile at the moment because it is only fixed to the top of the frame, I wouldn't hold the frame flat when they finish it either because unlike foundation it genally isn't fixed at all to the bottom of the frame and can be patchy on the last third.

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## Jon

I have never tried 14 by 12s so no opinions one way or the other. It is unusual for any of mine to need more than a standard brood box although the odd one gets a double brood. Any new comb is going to be delicate at the start and needs to be handled with care.

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## Neils

If you've ever been lectured by a Top Bar Hive beekeeper about how terrible your choice of hive is then you understand how it feels to use 14x12s, the most vociferous opponents of them never seem to have ever actually used them (Mr Patterson I'm looking at you) but are quick to outline all the things you apparently can't do with them. I'm just bloody minded so set about doing all the things people tell me can't be done just to see if they're actually right.  For the most part my considered opinion is that they're talking a lot of guff.

Would I swing a 14x12 frame full of stores over my head? Probably not unless I do finally snap and go live in la-la land. When you forget to wire the frame that they're drawing and it's only 1/3 done then yes, you need to be careful. Funnily enough that applies to Super frames too.

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## Rosie

I've never had much trouble with people criticising my 14x12s but nevertheless I am trying to gradually get my bees out of them.  I Bailey changed them into them some years ago but Bailey changing them out of them is proving more difficult because they don't need the extra space so don't readily extend the nest upwards.  Mine like honey above and nest sideways.

I recommend people to use 14x12s if their bees are prolific but they are proving too big for my bees since my move to Wales.

Half the problem with people with strong views is that they think everyone's circumstances are the same as theirs.

Rosie

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## Neils

I've got one colony that's too big for the 14x12 and I think that is one justified criticism of them. If you're in an area that does have prolific bees then it might not be enough of a solution and going to double brood 14x12, while possible is effectively the same as going triple National and I don't know many people who've got bees that need that much space.

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## Jon

Finman with his Italians.

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## Adam

So far I have two (WBC) colonies on 14 x 12's. One has migrated up from an 8 frame 14 x 12 which I overwintered - it now has an italian type queen in it as the overwintered queen didn't do much last year and died over the winter. From the 14 x 12 I've had running for 3 years, I've never had much honey out of the hive, despite often having 8 good frames of brood in it. A lot of bees and 1 supers worth is not much of a result. Maybe the italian queen will get results this year?
The frames are heavy when full of capped stores. And if you drop them an inch or two they break at the weak point!
Rosie, it's interesting what you say about 14 x 12's being too big now you've moved to Wales - I assume you have similar bees to before ?

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## Rosie

I took my bees with me.

Rosie

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## Jon

> I've never had much honey out of the hive


Some bees just make more bees.
I know an AMM enthusiast who keeps several colonies of yellowish bees for making up nucs which are then requeened with AMM queens.

Have you tried the bigger frames with fishing line instead of wired foundation?

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## The Drone Ranger

An Italian colony would give plenty bees for you mating nucs if you kept it elsewhere

I dug up this thread because I have a few super frames being drawn out between previously drawn comb
I like the simplicity but extracting  will be no fun
I notice the bees are more inclined to get on with it working both sides at once and extending downward
When working foundation they can't get to both sides at the same time does this deter them a little ?

"Finman with his Italians. "
try not to mention that idiot in case he shows up

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## chris

> try not to mention that idiot in case he shows up


Gets my vote for post of the year.

DR, extraction shouldn't be any problem at all if your frames are wired. One advantage I've always noticed is that the bees make larger cells for stocking honey.
 Perhaps having worker size foundation also complicates things for them

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Chris 
There is nothing there for support at the moment but I'll try the fishing line trick see how that goes

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## chris

My experience is that I've gone back to wire, as I've had the fishing line chewed through too often, and left floating in the frame as if trying to catch a bee.Wire always holds out.

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## Jon

I am very happy with the fishing line. No problems so far after 2 seasons of use.
I have been putting drone comb into all my colonies and that is stuff they have drawn themselves which goes into storage over winter.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My experience is that I've gone back to wire, as I've had the fishing line chewed through too often, and left floating in the frame as if trying to catch a bee.Wire always holds out.


I'll give both wire and nylon a try 
May be the braid type will be more acceptable and tougher like Berkley Fireline 
I didn't think of wire really because they don't lay on the frame wires I assumed they would not like it
Never assume it makes an Ass of U and me as they say  :Smile:

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## Bumble

I've yet to try it out. Do you use eyelets to strengthen the holes?

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## Jon

No need.

I take a batch of frames and drill a single side bar as a template.
use this to drill a batch of side bars by lining up the template and drilling 2 or 3 at a time through the 2 holes.
That way you get the line horizontal.

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## fatshark

Is there a trick to getting the fishing line tight enough? You can crimp wire, but mono is slippery stuff. Does Rosie give any details in the original article?

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## Jon

Just pull it tight and wrap it around the drawing pin about three times before pushing the pin tight into the side bar.
It should not loosen.
I just found a lovely box of a dozen fishing line drone combs in the shed earlier this evening which will be heading to the apiary shortly.

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## Neils

> An Italian colony would give plenty bees for you mating nucs if you kept it elsewhere
> 
> I dug up this thread because I have a few super frames being drawn out between previously drawn comb
> I like the simplicity but extracting  will be no fun
> I notice the bees are more inclined to get on with it working both sides at once and extending downward
> When working foundation they can't get to both sides at the same time does this deter them a little ?
> 
> "Finman with his Italians. "
> try not to mention that idiot in case he shows up


I don't have that much of a problem using plain frames in the supers and then into the extractor. In many respects it simplifies that side of the management, if comb looks a bit manky after extraction I just cut it out and chuck it in the wax/mead bucket. If I don't think it will survive extraction, which is maybe 10-15% of the total frames then it goes in the crush and strain bucket or gets used for cut comb.

Every hive gets a super of comb first and then gets empty frames if there's no more comb left, this year, I've not got close to running out of comb to give them but I do always chuck in a few empty frames to keep the levels up and to give the bees something to do.

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## gavin

> Is there a trick to getting the fishing line tight enough? You can crimp wire, but mono is slippery stuff. Does Rosie give any details in the original article?


Where is the old codger anyway?  Puts me in mind of a song.  At least bumble bees get a mention in this one.

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## Jon

Well as a Belfast resident I would have to go for this one.

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## gavin

Speaking of Ireland here's one by your favourite Irish potato.  I wouldn't bother clicking it, its dire.




Surely the warmth of the call is getting through now and we'll see him back soon?

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## gavin

Maybe this one is clickable?




OK, I feel bad.  Sorry.  You can get back to discussing fishing line now if you like.

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## Neils

> Is there a trick to getting the fishing line tight enough? You can crimp wire, but mono is slippery stuff. Does Rosie give any details in the original article?


It doesn't have to be tight enough to treat the frame as a lyre imo. Finger tight should be enough, it's only there to give a bit of re-inforcement. I wire horizontally 1/3 and 2/3 down and simply wrap the ends around drawing pins and push them flush.

(sorry to break the music vid love in  :Big Grin: )

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## Jon

A cruel return to on topic posts but that is exactly my method as well.
Ukeleles and Lyres. chacun a son gout. I stick to the more conventional guitar.

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## The Drone Ranger

Blast! I found a trout flapping around in the supers

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## fatshark

No trout here … but I thought I'd give this thread a bump and thank Jon for the original posting … these frames work a treat.

140426-012.jpg

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## busybeephilip

Personally I like wire.  for my foundation I use different sizes of embedded wire, brood for sale or swap I use the same as thornes (o.4mm), for my own brood I use 0.45mm and for super extracting frames I use 0.5mm.  The heavier wire helps prevent the foundation sag under the weight of bees if the hive gets hot the only dissadvantage is that heavier wire leaves a track of empty cells on new brood frames where the queen refuses to lay, but later the bees must polish the cells better as this effect eventually disappears. 

For my single frame Swedish EWK style nucs like to wire the frame as it gives new comb stability, plus to add some strength the wire is crimped to straighten/tighten it up,  its easy for newly drawn white comb to break off if the frame is tilted even just a little in hot weather

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## Little_John

> Half the problem with people with strong views is that they think everyone's circumstances are the same as theirs.


A classic comment ! Thanks for that - I'll quote this in future (if I may ?).  Same is true of their experiences, too ...

Bloke uses matchsticks under the crownboard during winter - colony dies - it's the fault of excessive heat loss.

Another bloke uses matchsticks under the crownboard - colony not only survives but flourishes - top ventilation in wnter is the way to go ... any other method is nuts.

And so the 'religious' opinions become entrenched ...


For a while I lived on a mountain 'above the clouds' in a cottage on Moel Tryfan (Rhosgadfan, Caernarfon) - the weather there alternated between being extremely wet, or bone dry - but never, ever damp.  Currently I live in the Lincolnshire Fens - 6 inches above sea level - where it is unbelievably damp for 6 or 7 months of the year, and where hive management methodology needs to be appropriate.

Think I'll try fishing line (thanks), as sometimes my girls don't always attach to the frame sides.

LJ

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## Rosie

[QUOTE=busybeephilip;24805]Personally I like wire.  for my foundation I use different sizes of embedded wire, brood for sale or swap I use the same as thornes (o.4mm), for my own brood I use 0.45mm and for super extracting frames I use 0.5mm. /QUOTE]

I still use fishing line for my drone frames after about 7 years.  Each year, however, I increase the thickness of the line to try to prevent the odd one being bitten through.  I started with 20lb line as per Dave Cushman's advice and am now up to 40 lb line.  So far I haven't noticed bees ignoring the cells with the line in but it might start this year with this thicker stuff.  Having said that I still come across the first batch of frames I did with 20lb line after having recycled them at least a couple of times.  I just melt out the wax and fit a new starter strip, leaving the old line still in place.  After 7 years it has slackened a bit but is still tight enough to be effective.

Yesterday I was speaking to a friend who wires his own langstroth frames.  He said he tasted his wire and Thorne's has no taste and thinks that's why the bees don't leave the wired cells empty.  He believes that other makes, using different grades of steel, are rejected more by the bees due to the material choice rather than the thickness.

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## Jon

One other advantage of fishing line is that it avoids the problem of oxidation if you fumigate old comb with acetic acid fumes.

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## busybeephilip

[QUOTE=Rosie;24808
  He said he tasted his wire and Thorne's has no taste and thinks that's why the bees don't leave the wired cells empty.  He believes that other makes, using different grades of steel, are rejected more by the bees due to the material choice rather than the thickness.[/QUOTE]

Thats an interesting observation,  I used to use 0.4mm direct from thornes (10kg spool) and still seen the same empty cell effect.  I think it may also have something to do with the angle the wire runs at and the depth it is embedded in the wax.  I now source my wire in bulk from an alternative supply house.  Must have a go at tasting my wire !

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## GRIZZLY

Are you sure the empty cells are not heater cells? see "Buzz about Bees - biology of a superorganism" beautifully written by Jurgen Tautz- worth a read.

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## busybeephilip

The characteristic line of empty brood cells is always along the line of the wire foundation.  This effect disapears after the first round of brood rearing which makes me think that it is that the bees have had time to polish/ fill in  the bottoms of the cells where the wire might be protruding.  You also only see this on the side of the wax sheet that has been embedded (given that the wire has not penetrated right throught the mid rib) .  Thats my theory of what is likely to be happenning - then again I may be wrong

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## busybeephilip

Oh, heater cells - not sure about this, a strong laying queen will lay in new comb before the cells are finished so each young cell will be the same regardless of the shape of the bottom of the cell even though the top of the cell is not finished and can be thicker.  The shorter cell length supports the notion that the queen senses that the cell containing the wire at the bottom is faulty so she avoids laying an egg in it.  This gives the wire line effect as the brood is later capped

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## Jon

I don't think Tautz has convinced too many people about that heater bee theory.

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## busybeephilip

I reckon its rubbish, maybe something that one of those sensitive temp recording devices and high res video can solve

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## fatshark

I use fishing line as I don't want the ley lines to be disturbed  surprised no-one has twigged to this  :Wink:  15kg, but thick rubbish quality stuff I bought remaindered somewhere at 50p for 200m.  I've also got no wire, which restricted my choice a bit.

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## GRIZZLY

> I don't think Tautz has convinced too many people about that heater bee theory.


Have you read his book jon ?

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## Jon

I have a signed copy!
He spoke in NI a few years ago and unfortunately I missed his presentation but a friend got me a copy of the book.

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