# General beekeeping > Alternative beekeeping >  Time to start this one off!

## POPZ

Well I do have a TBH (Top Bar Hive - explanation for those like me who had no idea what all these acronyms (is that right?) mean.)

Yes I have a TBH, unused yet, but really looking forward to the day I have sufficient ladies established that I can start it off. I like the theoretical simplicity and natural way of husbandry. Surely there must be someone else out there doing something outwith the mainstream of beekeeping - isn't there??

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## Neils

I've been very tempted to try a TBH, but my only apiary until this year has been on an allotment and the thought of trying to cart it away in the event of problems has been enough to dissaude me.  I'm experimenting with, at this point, a single Super frame with no foundation, I left a starter rim of a couple of cells worth of comb around the edges and I'm interested to see how the bees deal with it, I'm intending to stick it between two pre-drawn combs and see what happens. What might be more useful/interesting is how they deal with a 14x12 frame with no foundation in it.

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## Stromnessbees

I am used to calling them KTBs (Kenyan Top-Bar Hives) from working with Bees Abroad in Ghana (http://www.beesabroad.org.uk). I decided that I should really gain experience with this type of hive here in Orkney, too, and have built one last summer. Unfortunately the swarm it was intended for had vanished by the time I tried to collect it and it's still without occupants. I will use it as a bait hive in the coming season and I assume it might come handy if I ever have to transfer an already established swarm on wild comb.

Another hive type I am tempted to try is the Warree, but with our shortage of bees here I can't afford too many experiments yet.

Anybody else with experience of alternative hives?

Doris

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## POPZ

That must have been very rewarding working with Bees Abroad. I have heard of their work, and believe they do great things? I guess myTBH is Kenyan type with a Cornwall-like twist to it. You probably know what I mean! And I think your idea of using it as a bait hive is great. I tried that myself last season but with no success. I think it could have been because all I used were those artificial swarm lures you can buy. Whereas I should have put some drawn foundation in as well, or even just foundation.

My neighbour uses the Warre system, and is well pleased with it. We must keep in touch on this one ?
POPZ

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## Stromnessbees

POPZ, I'll let you know when I get bees in my KTB, it might be a while though.

I have attached a picture that shows one of the things that can go wrong in a KTB: The comb has been built across the top bars. We lifted the whole colony out in one piece and turned it upside down.  To put it right you have to cut the combs off one by one and tie them to individual top bars. 
Very interesting work, but it gets incredibly hot inside a beesuit in a tropical forest...

Doris

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## Jon

I also have plans to build a TBH this year although I remember I said the same thing this time last year.
Doris.
That first picture is interesting as don't the Warre people say that bees naturally don't like to build more than 8 parallel combs and you have about a dozen there. I have a similar picture from underneath an Open Mesh Floor where the queen went under by mistake and build about a dozen combs.

OMF from below..jpg OMF from above..jpg OMF from below3..jpg OMF from below2..jpg

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## Stromnessbees

Hi Jon

I think the bees are very good at utilising whatever space they happen to be in. In any cavity they start several combs at the top and go downwards. If they can't go any further down they'll have to go sideways instead. I have heard the argument that in a horizontal hive they have to swarm as they can't keep expanding the nest sideways. Apparently the comb nearer the edges is designed for storage rather than for brood.

My pictures are of A. m. adansonii, so could be different from European types. In Ghana there is talk of hives where the bees use more than 27 top bars.

For great pictures of free hanging colonies go to this Museum of Bees in Spain: 

http://www.valletietar.com/casa1862/...SEO%20VIVO.pdf

Doris

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## POPZ

> Hi Jon I think the bees are very good at utilising whatever space they happen to be in. In any cavity they start several combs at the top and go downwards. If they can't go any further down they'll have to go sideways instead. I have heard the argument that in a horizontal hive they have to swarm as they can't keep expanding the nest sideways. Apparently the comb nearer the edges is designed for storage rather than for brood. Doris


Doris, surely that is the advantage of aTBH. Easy to slip another top bar in?. The main challenge as far as I am concerned will be converting a normal frame of brood to TBH shape and fixing to the top bar. If that is what I have to end up doing on failure any swarms wanting to visit! I do have a really good video clip of that actually being done, but have the feeling that it will not be quite as easy as they make out!! 

Whatever, I must get the hive working this season. - POPZ

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## Stromnessbees

Hi POPZ

It should not be too difficult to get bees into the TBH. If you use the artificial swarming method you only need to convert one comb and you increase the number of your colonies at the same time.
This month's Scottish Beekeeper has got the 'Heddon Method' in it (p75), which is a variation that increases your chances to get a honey-crop, too.
Another description is on Dave Cushman's site:  http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/artswarm.html

Best of luck, Doris

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## drumgerry

A couple of years back I built a couple of TBHs per Phil Chandler's plans.  I acquired a couple of colonies which were in Langstroth hives and shook swarmed them into the TBHs.  I was full of optimism about their prospects.  

They did ok for the rest of the season.  But I had terrible problems with cross combing between the top bars.  Which meant that every time I needed to inspect the colony I literally had to destroy it to get into it.  Very disheartening.

Fed them and treated them in the Autumn as usual.  One of them made it through the winter but in a very weakened state and didn't survive beyond the spring.  If it had been a normal box hive I could have rescued it with  a frame or two of brood from another colony.  But when you have natural combs the bees construct them so as to depend on the combs either side for the nest to fit together.  They are not interchangeable in the way that frames are.  So there was no way for me to rescue that colony.  Again very disheartening.

Plus the length of the thing makes it awkward, I feel, in our cold Scottish winters for the cluster to find their stores.  Both of the TBHs had ample stores for the winter but couldn't/didn't get to them.

Maybe it was just my experience of TBHs but I don't think I'd be too keen to put any more bees into them.  In an era where we have to intervene in the bees' lives frequently to keep them alive TBHs just aren't suited to it.  For what I can tell they benefit fom minimal intervention and if that's what your looking for then you're likely to have some very dead bees.

Don't mean to put anybody off using TBHs but just describing my experience with them.

Gerry

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## POPZ

Gerry, yea that sounds pretty depressing, understand what you say and makes sense. I will have to give it a go though just to find out for myself. The problem is though, we all pretty short of colonies and I don't want to risk too much. I guess it will all depend on this seasons build up and so will have to assess during the season.

I think that Mr.Chandler was talking about developing a method of feeding over the top bars which seems to make sense, but probably making alterations to the roof space?

Thanks for your input. maybe we might hear more about this from others?
POPZ

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## drumgerry

Popz - don't mean to depress you.  What I'm describing is purely my experience.  But I feel sometimes that there's a lot of perhaps overly positive portrayals of what actually having TBHs is like.  It's not a cure-all for the bees and doesn't fully address the disadvantages of conventional hives.  And I'm not convinced they are particularly well suited to the Scottish climate - but like I said I have only one year's experience of using them.

I didn't find feeding the bees particularly difficult.  I created a chamber for them at one end of the hive which they could access and which contained a plastic feeder.  So they built up their stores for the winter just fine.  That they couldn't manage to access them (as a winter cluster) was the main problem.  Perhaps Warre hives might be a better option for those seeking a hive with a natural broodnest as they go up the way (which conforms more with the bees natural instincts) rather than lengthwise as is the case with TBHs.

I doubt I'll be entrusting any more colonies to TBHs as they are too rare and precious a commodity to risk losing in this day and age.

Cheers

Gerry

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## gavin

The big thing about Warres is that you can't inspect comb.  I've been spending time going around telling people to look at their comb very carefully for obvious reasons, and I'm hoping that we will all be getting to know our bee inspectors soon if we don't know them already.

The Warre enthusiasts say not to worry, our way of beekeeping gives you healthy bees which never come down with foulbrood.  We've no way of knowing if that is true or not and I don't think that they do either.  Even if it gives the bees some advantages I doubt that it will make them immune to disease - just almost immune to having that disease spotted.

I once tried natural drawn comb (from a 5.1mm Thornes small cell starter strip) in National frames.  I don't think that it made much difference.  The main thing I was hoping for was a degree of Varroa tolerance but there was no sign of that.

The 'natural beekeeping' tag is a powerful one, but just how natural is keeping bees in a wooden cradle with moveable wooden strips for the bees to build comb from?  The Warre (and similar vertical designs, including the Scottish Stewarton) seem a more natural shape mimicing the hollow tree that you'd naturally find bees in, but then a National, Smith, Commercial, Wormit, Langstroth does that for you too and allows you to manage your bees sensibly ...

Despite all that I may try a TBH one day.  I'll not expect too much from it though.

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## Stromnessbees

> I once tried natural drawn comb (from a 5.1mm Thornes small cell starter strip) in National frames.  I don't think that it made much difference.  The main thing I was hoping for was a degree of Varroa tolerance but there was no sign of that.


Hi Gavin

Your mini-trial with natural cells for varroa resistance couldn't show quick results, as you were starting with big bees which will most likely build rather big cells, as they base their cell size on their own dimensions. In order to get them to build smaller cells you might have to have several generations of bees building cells which gradually reduce in size. 

It would be great if we could try these things out, but resources (bees) are in very short supply and it would be a shame to lose colonies through experimmenting with them.

But we can browse around and see what others are up to, like Michael Bush: http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm, I find his site very inspiring.

Doris

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## Stromnessbees

> The Warre (and similar vertical designs, including the Scottish Stewarton) seem a more natural shape mimicing the hollow tree that you'd naturally find bees in, but then a National, Smith, Commercial, Wormit, Langstroth does that for you too and allows you to manage your bees sensibly ...


The Stewarton hive has been metioned a few times already, but I can't imagine what it looks like. Does anybody have a picture of one?

Cheers, Doris

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## gavin

Octagonal%20Beehive..jpg

http://www.stewarton.org/History/oct...Bee%20Hive.htm

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## Stromnessbees

Wow, Gavin, that was quick!

Does anybody use such a thing nowadays?

Doris

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## gavin

Ben Bellamy said that someone was selling them (for £5k perhaps?), and so I passed this news on to a local group that are thinking of making hives in case they want to try their hand at Stewartons.

G.

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## POPZ

Back from the wild north to see I have been missing out on lots of chat here. Interesting stuff, particularly the Stewarton. Never heard of it before, but obviously has worked well in the past - or is that sort of honey production a beexageration?




> The 'natural beekeeping' tag is a powerful one, but just how natural is keeping bees in a wooden cradle with moveable wooden strips for the bees to build comb from?  The Warre (and similar vertical designs, including the Scottish Stewarton) seem a more natural shape mimicing the hollow tree that you'd naturally find bees in, but then a National, Smith, Commercial, Wormit, Langstroth does that for you too and allows you to manage your bees sensibly ...Despite all that I may try a TBH one day.  I'll not expect too much from it though.


Ok Gavin, I hear what you say about the natural way is to build in tree trunks vertically, but I believe they also build in fallen trees laterally. I wonder whether this is a case of man determining what is right or wrong rather than letting the subjects choose for themselves. TBH's are used with much success in many parts of the world, albeit kinder climates, but that has little to do with whether they build vertically or laterally. 

I am getting rather boring here by trying to score a trite point, so will go out to the garage to complete another bait hive - tiddleypoops all.

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## gavin

And maybe I was point-scoring by pointing out that claims of being 'natural' are really rather shaky.  

However the bees do prefer vertical rather than horizontal.  If you give your 6 active frame brood box early spring colony three supers of foundation now you would find that they would instantly stop spreading outwards and move up instead to create a chimney of brood and stores up the middle.  It makes sense to get them to fill their brood box first, and so there is a narrow period for the ideal timing of adding the first super as they approach the edge of the brood box but before they feel cramped.

Maybe in warmer places the tendency to work upwards is less?

best wishes

Gavin

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## Stromnessbees

I feel that by providing space above the broodnest we are creating an unnatural situation that the bees quickly remedy by filling it with comb. A wild colony would always start building at the top of the cavity and build downwards, there's never an empty space above their heads if left to their own devices. Thinking about it that way, the Warre has to be the most natural one, with 'supers' always added underneath the broodnest for expanding downwards. (I know they call them 'nadirs' instead of 'supers'.) (Still don't know how the Stewarton is managed.)

Warning:
Read the next bit only if you have had your tea already!

There's a rather macabre story which seems to be fitting into this thread:
During our Ghana-trip in January I heard about a taboo source of honey. It's honey from graves: Feral colonies can occupy the chest-cavity of corpses in shallow graves, possibly using the ribs as natural top bars.

... you have been warned,
Doris

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## POPZ

Doris. Love your story. I am sure I have heard of similar happenings with old animal carcases that have become overgrown and made excellent 'hives'. It seems that we have interesting ideas/theories regarding the TBH and similar 'natural' methods of beekeeping. I am sure that there is an element of truth in all systems, but I wonder which systems the bees themselves actually prefer?

This is why I wish to run different systems for myself and try and compare, over a period of time and under as similar conditions as possible, which is the most beneficial for the bees, rather than man.

So I do hope that there will be others willing to look at other forms of husbandry, and that we can compare notes. Less stress = less disease and hopefully happier ladies.

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## Trog

Of course, the old story of the bees inhabiting a lion's carcase is too well-known to need repeating.  You just have to look on a Tate & Lyle syrup/treacle tin to see how long that one's lasted!

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## gavin

"Out of the eater came forth meat and out of the strong came forth  sweetness"

I'm no biblican scholar but this seems to be The Book of Judges story of Samson and the Philistines.

Lyle%27sGoldenSyrup..jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_syrup

drat!  Too well known to be worth repeating you said Trog!

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## Jon

Popz:
What about a whale carcass?
Plenty of room for colony expansion there.

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## Trog

Bleurrrgh!  Can you imagine what the honey would taste like, made inside a stinky minke?

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## Jon

> Bleurrrgh!  Can you imagine what the honey would taste like, made inside a stinky minke?


Well obviously I would fumigate beforehand with 80% acetic acid and take a blow torch to the rib cage to avoid any health and safety issues.

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## POPZ

Doris - I don't know whether you are still there but it seems that at the words 'TBH' 'natural' 'what bees like as opposed to man(man being generic of course!!!)' and anything else that might inpinge on traditional ideas, all collapse into a heap of blethering whatnots. 

I have re-assembled my TBH today on the strength of all this and will process it out to the apiary in the very near future. So there! Hope you join me up your way?

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## Stromnessbees

Hi POPZ

As I said before: unfortunately I'll have to restrain myself at the moment and concentrate on producing nucs in standard equipment. The TBH will be set up as a bait hive and if a swarm moves in I'll be delighted.
If I find time I'll try to construct a Warre, too, again to be used as a bait hive.

I hear that there is an alternative beekeeper on Mull, maybe we can get him/her to share experiences with us on this forum?

Will keep you posted should a swarm decide to go alternative.

Doris

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## Jon

Popz.
Didn't mean to be critical. I have to hold my hand up to being a blethering whatnot.
...But Doris started it!
I do intend to build my own TBH this year, out of curiosity more than anything else.

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## POPZ

> Popz.
> Didn't mean to be critical. I have to hold my hand up to being a blethering whatnot.
> ...But Doris started it!
> I do intend to build my own TBH this year, out of curiosity more than anything else.


Ok Jon, so Doris is to blame for all this?? I have obviously got the wrong end of the stick here. Doris is the one person who appeared to me to be entirely sane and willing to discuss all things TBHachly. However, seeing as you intend to go down the righteous path, then great, and all is forgiven!!!

Doris, regarding the alternative beekeeper here on Mull, yes I am keeping in touch with him and her. They have some really very interesting ideas. They are using the Warre system and appear to be successful with it, if success is measured by getting two out of two colonies through the winter this winter.  

I shall also be looking for 'alternative ' swarms.

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## Jon

Popz.
I am interested in all aspects of beekeeping irrespective of the shape of the box they are housed in.
I think it is important to avoid a them and us attitude as there are things 'conventional/traditional' beekeepers can learn from TBH ers and vice versa.
I am categorically *not* in the anti TBH camp.
I have my colonies on an allotment 3 miles from my house but I quite fancy the idea of having a TBH in the garden which I could cut a honeycomb from on occasion.
The plan would be to move the most docile colony I have to a TBH in order to minimise conflict with neighbours. I live in a semi in a built up area.
I think it is a good way to go for anyone interested in beekeeping on a low budget.
I do share Gavin's concerns re. checking for foulbrood diseases, as a lot of the alternative beekeeping movement seems to be based around minimal inspections per season rather than 8-10 day checks as I would do.

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## gavin

Hi Popz and Everyone

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is here.  No-one has written anything anti-TBH as far as I can see, and even if they had, fora like this are places for debate, aren't they?  

I *do* take issue with the tag 'Natural' as that is just trying to hype-up something which is hardly more natural than some variants of framed beekeeping.

My comments on Warres are also linked to a curiosity about them and a willingness to experiment, one day.  Warres in particular are just not appropriate for me here and now, as there is a huge need to inspect comb across Tayside.  There is a local guy interested in Warre beekeeping to whom I have promised to show bees this spring.  We discussed Warres at length, and it is clear that some of the ideas floating around are rather like a creed and not for questioning debate (not by him I should add!  He's a sensible fellow.).  Remember, I'm a scientist.  Questioning debate is my kind of thing.

I've enjoyed this thread so far.  Gerry is the only one here to have actually tried a TBH in Scotland (or the British Isles) and his contribution is most welcome.  Doris with her comments has really made me think (thanks Doris!).  I'm just away out in the snow to turn my Nationals upside down to mimic the more natural way ... but that worries me as with this incredible summer we're about to have I'll have to lift a couple of hundreweights of boxes to get the later supers tucked underneath ....

 :Stick Out Tongue: 

G.

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## drumgerry

Despite my experiences I would say that I'm also "categorically not in the anti-TBH camp".  They didn't particularly work for my style of beekeeping and perhaps weren't best suited for my locale or the bees I put into them.  But that doesn't invalidate them as a way to keep bees IMO.  Maybe in the rainswept west or the windswept north they'd be just the ticket! :Big Grin:  

Seriously though, I think if I were to construct them again I'd make them shorter and work out a way to super them.  Unfortunately there's no getting around the difficulty of carrying out an inspection with them and if they tend to cross comb across the bars my opinion is that it's not worth bothering.  

I wish everyone the best of luck with their experiments with TBHs and Warres and hope things turn out better than they did for me.

Gerry

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## Mike

Hi Everyone,

Newbee here so please excuse me a few stupid questions.

I have considered keeping a bee for years but never taken the plunge. I am hoping to make a serious start as soon as I consider I have completed sufficient study/research.

Up until now there has been no mention of KTBH's on this site as far as I am aware and I have been wondering why. I am concerned to learn that a couple of colonies have not survived the winter in TBH's. If I got a colony or two going I would be devastated if they died as a result of me not providing them with suitable accommodation. 

TBH's seem remarkably easy to construct and I am thinking I will construct one or two of thicker timber to provide more protection from the elements. As I understand there are no fundamental differences between TBH's and bait/lure boxes I will use the TBH's for this purpose initially.

I would be able to construct any bee hive from suitable plans but am fancying the simplicity of the TBH at this stage. Once I have some experience and understanding of the issues I may form different opinions.

I live in a cold windy location on a farm. All the land on one side of my house is an intensively farmed dairy farm (about 200 milking cows) whereas on the other side of the house is a stream, woodland and grass land. About 1 mile away are the moors. I assume my location although not ideal for bee keeping should be OK? I have an organic garden, strawberries, raspberries, wild flowers, an orchard and a pond. When the garden is in full bloom there are often plenty of busy bees around, it is for this reason I think I might be able to lure a swarm. So far this year I have not seen a bee at home although I have seen a couple on the golf course.

Ref cross combing across the top bars. I have seen 3 ways that are supposed to ensure the bees know where to build their comb. In the previous post (drumgerry) please could you indicate which method did not work.

Thanks 

Mike

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## POPZ

Mike - welcome to the forum and hope you keep posting awkward questions such as this one. TBH's are a hot (dare I say potatoe?) on this forum at the moment. If no-one comes back with an answer, I will get back to you myself.

So you are on edge of the moors - is that Helmsley/Thirsk way. From there myself. 

Anyway, I hope you enjoy forum and get some good advice, and keep in touch with how you are getting on.
POPZ

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## gavin

> (dare I say potatoe?)


You can if you like, but you might be accused of being Dan Quayle-like in your spelling ability!

Mike, it sounds like your garden would provide a useful source of pollen nearby, but the bees will need to forage over a wide area.  Woodland could be good, and pasture if it has wild plants in it and especially clover.  Bees would fly to the moor in late summer, no problem.

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## drumgerry

Hi Mike - I followed a pretty standard method of getting the bees to build comb on to top bars.  I table sawed a slot in the top bar, melted some wax in and attached a starter strip of foundation of about an inch in depth.  

Cross combing - you might get it, you might not.  But it's no fun if that's the way the bees prefer to have their nest.

If it were me starting up with bees I wouldn't be looking at TBHs.  I'd be doing some heavy research into what type hive I'd prefer and leave TBH experiments for when I've got a multitude of stocks.  But that's just me - everyone will have their own take on it.

Whatever you choose to do I wish you luck.  Life will never be the same once you have bees and you'll wish you'd done it years ago!

Gerry

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## Mike

Thanks for replies,

POPZ - I originate from Easingwold and worked at Thirsk & Northallerton Golf Club 30 odd years ago. Now live in the Whitby area.

I do intend to have a period of study before taking the plunge, a bee is not just for christmas. Problem is there are too many choices when it comes to hive designs and too many contrary opinions among experienced bee keepers so how am I supposed to make a decision? A friend knows a bee keeper and is arranging a meeting so I might be able to fit another piece or two into the jigsaw.

Will be back with more questions in due course.

Mike

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## POPZ

Mike - I left Nawton Towers some 55 years ago (blimey, that seems an awful long time ago!). 
There are just three things I would recommend for you at the moment.
1) Find yourself a mentor. Someone who is experienced in keeping bees in your area and work with them for a while. 
2) Join your area bee keepers association such as - http://www.hrbka.org.uk/index.php?op...id=7&Itemid=13 I see these guys have an association apaiary which could be very useful for you.
3) Purchase a great little book 'Bees at the bottom of the garden' by Alan Campion. A simple and really instructive little book. 

Good luck and enjoy - POPZ

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## drumgerry

I would second the recommendation of the Campion book.  It's written with a real enthusiasm and love for the bees.  For a more in depth treatment there is of course Hooper.  And one of the best recommendations I got when I was starting out was to buy 60 Years with Bees by Donald Sims.  That one will more than pay for itself I can tell you.

As to equipment I went down the National hive route but it's a compromise in terms of space.  If I were to start out all over before I'd bought lots of National kit I'd be very tempted to get Swienty poly Langstroth hives both for the cost and weight benefits plus it's suggested that bees winter better in them.  Does anyone know of an equivalent National poly hive which would work with all my wooden kit? I doubt such a thing exists  :Frown: 

Gerry

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## Trog

Thirded re Campion!

I'm all for Nationals, especially for British/mongrel bees in harsh environments.  I was talking to someone recently who made WBC-style lifts for his for the winter ... must try that sometime.

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## kennycreed

They seem a kind of complicated hive which means a lot more time disturbing and handling the bees, also I was wondering if you want to take honey out would you be destroying eggs and young bees if they were mixed up in the combes

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## drumgerry

> They seem a kind of complicated hive which means a lot more time disturbing and handling the bees, also I was wondering if you want to take honey out would you be destroying eggs and young bees if they were mixed up in the combes


That's not a particular issue with TBHs I don't think as the theory is that the broodnest is confined to the central part of the hive whereas the honey is stored on the periphery.  To remove the honey all that's done is to remove the outer combs which should be free of brood.  They are designed to be a simple form of hive hence the push for them to be used in the third world.  The complications arise when the bees don't follow the script and build their combs across one or more bars.

And on the subject of Poly hives, Highland Beekeeping supplies have confirmed they sell Poly Nationals which are interchangeable apparently with all National wooden parts.  I'm very tempted to move my bees over to Poly brood boxes and continue to make use of all the other wooden kit I have.

Gerry

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## rourkie

Hi drumgerry Highland bee supplies have poly nats available and they are supposed to mix regards rourkie

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## Jimbo

Hi Drumgerry,

I have a mixture of Poly and wooden national hives and have used them since 2003? after I went on a beekeeping trip to Denmark. I have not had a problem with poly hives other than you can't torch them to clean them!. The thermal properties inside the poly hive are also different to wooden hives. This is more noticeble when you are looking for the queen. In the wooden hive you normally find the queen and brood nest located in the center of the brood box. With the poly hive you could find the queen and brood nest anywhere even next to the wall of the brood box. I purchased my poly hives from Murray McGregor and Standfordham but a number of dealers now sell them. What I would recommend is the poly feeder. In the Autumn you place it on top of the brood box fill with a couple of gals of sugar feed leave for the bees to take it down. Job done! I would also recommend you paint the inside of the feeder as it tends to go black inside if you don't.

Jimbo

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## drumgerry

Thanks for that Jimbo  - great info!  If we're going to keep having winters like this last one with snow on the ground for months on end and sustained periods of sub-zero temps then I think Poly hives are going to provide an advantage to the bees.  Would an Ashforth (wooden) or plastic rapid feeder like those sold by Thornes not work as well or is the Poly feeder essential?

Gerry

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## chris

> The big thing about Warres is that you can't inspect comb.  ..................................
> The Warre enthusiasts say not to worry, our way of beekeeping gives you healthy bees which never come down with foulbrood.  We've no way of knowing if that is true or not and I don't think that they do either.  Even if it gives the bees some advantages I doubt that it will make them immune to disease - just almost immune to having that disease spotted.
> .


Warré keepers in Britain often point to France and Belgium saying that the Warré hive has been used there for much longer. Their implication is that the good health results are to be found in these countries. It has become irrelevant in practice, even if the theory is still going on in a *chase its tail* fashion. Since the arêté of 23/12/2009, ALL beekeepers in a zone where a contagious illness has been declared, are required to open their hives and present frames for inspection. This has complicated  fixed comb beekeeping to the extent where  many Warré keepers are now introducing 2 or 3 frames into the broodnest in the middle of each box. These frames can be removed for inspecting a sample of brood. Obviously this interferes with the idea of closed corridors between frames which,it is claimed, keep the atmosphere of the hive healthier. So a compromise. Enough to persuade Gavin to build his Warré? :Wink:

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