# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  1st grafting attempt

## greengumbo

Its done. Hardest part was finding a frame of suitable sized larvae !

I went through the hive and sorted out the frames I wanted then replaced with drawn comb, moving the desired ones up into the 2nd brood box above QE. Sandwiched the cell bar (which had bee in for a day) between open brood and pollen / stores and big dummies on either side (the worst looking dummies you can imagine). I then went through my selected breeder nuc and took out a frame of open brood. Nipped inside with a trail of angry bees. Quickly but carefully selected larvae that looked slightly bent and put them in the cells. Replaced the cell bar and left them to it. Excellent. 

I also took the opportunity to check on a nuc that got a mated queen added the the other day (I know I should leave them be but I was curious). Prior to adding the Q I had knocked down 7 Q Cells. I must have missed one as there is now a sealed QC. I saw the introduced queen wandering about looking lovely so should I just cut the cell out ? I thought they would have torn it down already ?

Anyway it was all very fun. Even received my first sting.

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## Jon

GG.
They probably wont start too many cells with the first set of grafts but in 24 hours they will be more likely to get going.
If you chose a frame of larvae which also has eggs on it you can put it in the top box where you know it is handy and then have a second bite at the grafting cherry 24 hours later without having to root through a brood box looking for suitable age larvae.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I also took the opportunity to check on a nuc that got a mated queen added the the other day (I know I should leave them be but I was curious). Prior to adding the Q I had knocked down 7 Q Cells. I must have missed one as there is now a sealed QC. I saw the introduced queen wandering about looking lovely so should I just cut the cell out ? I thought they would have torn it down already ?


Hi Greengumbo
I would take that cell down otherwise they most probably will bump off your queen in favour of one of their own making.
Or you could cut it out and put it on your cell raising bar  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

> Hi Greengumbo
> I would take that cell down otherwise they most probably will bump off your queen in favour of one of their own making.
> Or you could cut it out and put it on your cell raising bar


Good call. I was thinking of cutting it out and sticking it in a home-bodged mating nuc as well. This bee stuff is fun.

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## greengumbo

> GG.
> They probably wont start too many cells with the first set of grafts but in 24 hours they will be more likely to get going.
> If you chose a frame of larvae which also has eggs on it you can put it in the top box where you know it is handy and then have a second bite at the grafting cherry 24 hours later without having to root through a brood box looking for suitable age larvae.


Thanks for the tip Jon. Unfortunately I'm away until sunday now but will try again then. When is it okay to have a peek at the cell bar post-grafting ?

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Greengumbo
I was asking the same question a few weeks ago and surprisingly (thanks Jon) you check the cell bar 24 hrs later to see how many they have started  :Smile:

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## Jon

If you check even 4 hours later it is often informative as all the larvae will be gone in that time if they are not in the form to start cells.

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## The Drone Ranger

> If you check even 4 hours later it is often informative as all the larvae will be gone in that time if they are not in the form to start cells.


Ha!! you were holding out on me then  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

Had a quick peek after getting back tonight and 2 out of 6 takes  :Smile:  I'm just playing this year so am pretty happy. I am guessing I cant retry the remainer as its a bit late now but tempted to stick another bar (this time with more cells) in next to this one - can that work ?

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## Jon

Just regraft any anytime you want as long as you know where the cells are and when they are due to hatch.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Had a quick peek after getting back tonight and 2 out of 6 takes  I'm just playing this year so am pretty happy. I am guessing I cant retry the remainer as its a bit late now but tempted to stick another bar (this time with more cells) in next to this one - can that work ?


Well done that is not bad for a first attempt I would be happy with that
If you get them completed hatched and mated that's been worth it already  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

> Well done that is not bad for a first attempt I would be happy with that
> If you get them completed hatched and mated that's been worth it already


Cheers DR - I think its safe to say I'll be going down this route from now on and selecting good queens. It more grafts tonight if the rain holds off. Next stage is trying to figure out how to use a wee mating nuc, some great info on this forum about that so will have a read. Started this season worried about having bees get through winter but its become a lot more than that ! I'll try get some pics tonight.

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## Jon

> Cheers DR - I think its safe to say I'll be going down this route from now on and selecting good queens.


It is like a eureka moment when you realise you don't have to base queen rearing or nuc production an whatever colony just happens to produce queen cells.
It's not complicated at all and any beekeeper could set up a box to produce queen cells either via grafts or Snelgrove board.
Where this really comes into its own is via a queen rearing or bee improvement group as it gives you a lot more colonies to pick and chose from with regard to the source material for grafting.

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## greengumbo

Quickie anyone. I have a feeling I misjudged the time that the "naturally" raised QC I found in the hive I added a mated queen to was sealed (see previous post) and it may hatch tonight or tommorrow. Is it  likely to fail if I put it in a non-primed mating nuc or can I cage it for a few days and allow the mating nuc bees realise they need a queen ? I heard you can just wait until they "roar" after a few hours then pop in a ripe cell / virgin ?

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## Jon

One of the daftest things propagated about queen rearing is that a mini nuc needs to be left in the dark for 3 days before the cell is added.
Just fill your nuc, wait an hour and put the cell in. It would probably be ok to just fill it and put the cell in but the 'priming for 3 days' stuff is nonsense. Some people even wrap cells in tinfoil or use special cell protectors but that is not necessary either.

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## Wmfd

> One of the daftest things propagated about queen rearing is that a mini nuc needs to be left in the dark for 3 days before the cell is added.
> Just fill your nuc, wait an hour and put the cell in. It would probably be ok to just fill it and put the cell in but the 'priming for 3 days' stuff is nonsense. Some people even wrap cells in tinfoil or use special cell protectors but that is not necessary either.


Yes, and a heartfelt thanks for that from a long time 'lurker'. As first timers we successfully got two queen cells hatched and mated/laying. 

I'd filled the mini-nucs the day before and put the cells in the next.  I found the advice on here invaluable. 

David




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

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## Jon

It is the 'first timers' who are the most enthusiastic queen rearers in my experience.
Some of the longer term beekeepers are very defensive about what they never learned to do.
It really is quite a straightforward process, although attention to detail is the killer at certain times and poor weather can ruin the best laid plans.

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## Wmfd

Yes, I think enthusiasm was what carried us through. We had some queen cells going spare in a good hive (it was only swarming due to our super related incompetence earlier in the season). 

It seemed a shame to waste them. Now looking to use to requeen the nastiest hives we have.

Would like to try grafting but need to learn a bit more so have a vague idea what I'm doing. 

Thanks again,

David


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## Jon

The grafting is the easiest part.
There is a mystique attached to it for some reason - but it involves about the same hand eye coordination as it takes to thread a needle and we don't fete that as a high level skill.

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## Wmfd

You haven't seen me threading a needle  :Wink: 

I will have to give it a go. How late in the year can you realistically start grafts (I'm just looking and thinking it'll be later in August before I get a chance given holidays and all)?

Also what would I need equipment wise? Presumably some form of cell cups, I was looking at the Jz Bz type, then knock together a cell bar or two and fit in a frame?

Sorry - I've hijacked this thread!

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## greengumbo

> You haven't seen me threading a needle 
> 
> I will have to give it a go. How late in the year can you realistically start grafts (I'm just looking and thinking it'll be later in August before I get a chance given holidays and all)?
> 
> Also what would I need equipment wise? Presumably some form of cell cups, I was looking at the Jz Bz type, then knock together a cell bar or two and fit in a frame?
> 
> Sorry - I've hijacked this thread!



Hi wmfd - you have very accurately described what I did - knock together a very rough looking cell bar with jenter or jzbz cells. The grafting bit is def the part with most mystique and also the easiest bit ! I was delighted with 2/6 taken.

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## The Drone Ranger

> You haven't seen me threading a needle 
> 
> I will have to give it a go. How late in the year can you realistically start grafts (I'm just looking and thinking it'll be later in August before I get a chance given holidays and all)?
> 
> Also what would I need equipment wise? Presumably some form of cell cups, I was looking at the Jz Bz type, then knock together a cell bar or two and fit in a frame?
> 
> Sorry - I've hijacked this thread!


Depends really what the plan for the queen is Wmfd if she is to replace an existing queen who will lay right up till your new queen takes her place

You would need 2 weeks for the queen to hatch and another 2 weeks or more till she mates then she needs to get introduced to the hive 5 days or so 5 or 6 weeks 
That's all of August and well into September so I would be inclined not to delay getting the grafts done

Hijacked ?? you must be joking is great to have people posting

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## Jon

Hijacking threads is par for the course. You are in good company.
Most of my cell bar frames are made from ordinary frames with a second bar attached half way down.
I do have one single bar frame made from correx which has 12 base cups attached with tape.

Buzzy bee shop will sell you the stuff you want.

http://www.buzzybeeshop.co.uk/

I would have a go this year just to get my eye in then you can get yourself organised earlier for next year.

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## Wmfd

> Hijacking threads is par for the course. You are in good company.
> Most of my cell bar frames are made from ordinary frames with a second bar attached half way down.
> I do have one single bar frame made from correx which has 12 base cups attached with tape.
> 
> Buzzy bee shop will sell you the stuff you want.
> 
> http://www.buzzybeeshop.co.uk/
> 
> I would have a go this year just to get my eye in then you can get yourself organised earlier for next year.


Thanks greengumbo, Drone Ranger and Jon, I'll get onto buzzbeeshop and get ordering, then work out how I'm going to squeeze in around holiday to try and get ahead of September. 

I'd either be using any queens to replace a couple of nasty hives or trying to overwinter, but that's a long way off, would just be fun to try.

Any recommendations on which parts to use or are they much of a muchness?

Thanks,

David

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## Jon

You will need a dozen of the brown base cups, a dozen of the cream cups which attach on to them and a bag of 100 of the inserts.
I graft with the 000 paintbrush but most use the Chinese grafting tool.
Attach the brown base cups to an old frame and you are in business.

This is the basic stuff you need, and a few roller cages as well.

two good cells.jpg larva in cell cup.jpg larva on brush.jpg graft frame.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Wmfd

http://beeequipped.co.uk/component/o...,11/Itemid,29/
Mating hive these chaps are the cheapest
You dont need one of these if you are just making up queenless nucs because the cell can go directly into the Nuc hive

cell bar.JPG
this is what the cell bar looks like

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beekeepers...item3a81303619
This is the chinese graft tool
chinese tool.JPG

Ebay has this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honey-Quee...item3cd31734a4
kit.JPG

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## fatshark

I'm late to the thread (partly because I've been out putting hair rollers round my current queen cells) and can add little to what others have suggested.  Buzzy Bee Shop do a NC Queen Rearing Kit (10 Queens) for £9.75 +P+P.  Coupled with a suitable brood frame (and I'd use brood to get the cell bar well down into the warm area between adjacent frames) and a fine paintbrush you'll be good to go.  I'd add strong glasses if you need them and a head torch - both make seeing the small larvae much easier.

Practice makes perfect when grafting.  If the weather holds there still ample time this year to get mated queens.  I'll do my last round in mid-August probably.

Read up the threads on the Ben Harden system which is a single hive method of cell raising that needs little additional kit and does not interrupt honey production.

The most fun you can have with your beesuit on  :Big Grin:

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## greengumbo

> I'm late to the thread (partly because I've been out putting hair rollers round my current queen cells) and can add little to what others have suggested.  Buzzy Bee Shop do a NC Queen Rearing Kit (10 Queens) for £9.75 +P+P.  Coupled with a suitable brood frame (and I'd use brood to get the cell bar well down into the warm area between adjacent frames) and a fine paintbrush you'll be good to go.  I'd add strong glasses if you need them and a head torch - both make seeing the small larvae much easier.
> 
> Practice makes perfect when grafting.  If the weather holds there still ample time this year to get mated queens.  I'll do my last round in mid-August probably.
> 
> Read up the threads on the Ben Harden system which is a single hive method of cell raising that needs little additional kit and does not interrupt honey production.
> 
> The most fun you can have with your beesuit on


I wondered why people have the cells halfway down the brood frame. Thanks for clearing that up.

Did a second attempt last night but was clumsier this time round so will see if any take. The queen cell I thought was about to hatch in my nuc looked like the end had been chewed off by the bees ? No emerged virgin as a grub was still inside so I wonder if they decided to be happy with the mated queen I gave them. She had laid up a few frames so is doing well. Pity really as I was looking forward to trying out the mating nuc  :Smile:

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## fatshark

GG
The chewed away end is 'capping' which indicates the Q should emerge within 48-72 hours or so. It's usually the sign that you need to get the hair rollers on to avoid a virgin running riot through the rest of your grafts.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Greengumbo 
I take it you could see a white grub in the chewed Queen Cell ?

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## Wmfd

Brilliant & thanks.  Order is in with buzzybeeshop for grafting tool, cups, cup holders, sockets and hair roller cages.

I've already got four mating nucs (Keilers), two of which are currently occupied but should be empty by the time any successful grafts come through.

So now it's just wait for the bits to come and then get cracking!

David

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## The Drone Ranger

> Brilliant & thanks. 
> I've already got four mating nucs (Keilers)
> 
> David


Hi They are out of stock at the moment but these might be added to the keilers (if you were trying to overwinter queens in the mininuc)
https://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/i...nuc-upper-body
You need top bars as well they are 40p each  :Smile:

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## Wmfd

> Hi They are out of stock at the moment but these might be added to the keilers (if you were trying to overwinter queens in the mininuc)
> https://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/i...nuc-upper-body
> You need top bars as well they are 40p each


Ah yes, that could actually have been me buying the last ones.   :Embarrassment: 

 I bought a couple last week, as the two Kielers I have queens in were starting to look a bit crowded (I've held them waiting for a couple of hives that were in the process of rearing their own queens to act as spares). I was worrying about them upping and leaving.

I've got them sat on top of both now with some home made top bars, I can't do grooves in them, but the bees don't seem to mind!

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## The Drone Ranger

Great stuff Wmfd

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## greengumbo

Another 2 takes out of the remaining 4 spaces I re-grafted - original 2 cells all sealed  :Smile: 

Nice one. Silly question but when do people start grafts in Spring / Summer - already planning next year. I guess when drones start to get produced ?

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## Jimbo

I start when the drones are sexually mature. You can check this by popping a drone. I think Gavin might have a picture that explains this.

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## Jon

When you put drone comb in your drone colonies it will be about 40 days after that assuming the queens lay in it right away.
24 days to emergence and drones are sexually mature at about 2 weeks from emergence.

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## fatshark

And the only additional thing I do is calculate back about a month at a time from the dates of my summer holiday to ensure I've got queens out mating then. Not perfect and certainly weather dependent, but it's great to return and find newly mated and laying queens in the nucs.

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## Jon

> And the only additional thing I do is calculate back about a month at a time from the dates of my summer holiday


Last year I was away for nearly 3 weeks in July and I had 22 mated queens when I got back home which was a nice surprise.
I have well over 20 mated this year as well.

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## greengumbo

Okay next steps ! Queen due to emerge tonight / tommorrow by my calcs.
I filled an home bodged mating nuc last night with about 1/2 pint of bees, added fondant to the feeding compartment, put the entrance to ventilate position, left in garage - celebrated with a wee dram.

Garage had about 40 bees flying around in it this morning - doh ! Seems they had pushed the entrance disc out. 

So I aim so pop the ripe QC in today and then move to a friends apiary and let them loose this evening. 2 Questions - Do I open the hair roller cage or remove it completely when adding the QC ?  do I need to keep them closed up with the QC for a while ?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Okay next steps ! Queen due to emerge tonight / tommorrow by my calcs.
> I filled an home bodged mating nuc last night with about 1/2 pint of bees, added fondant to the feeding compartment, put the entrance to ventilate position, left in garage - celebrated with a wee dram.
> 
> Garage had about 40 bees flying around in it this morning - doh ! Seems they had pushed the entrance disc out. 
> 
> So I aim so pop the ripe QC in today and then move to a friends apiary and let them loose this evening. 2 Questions - Do I open the hair roller cage or remove it completely when adding the QC ?  do I need to keep them closed up with the QC for a while ?


You remove the hair roller cage and just put the queen cell in
Once you have moved the bees to your friends apiary providing its a mile or so away all the bees will stay put when you open the hive
Site the mini nuc out of the flight path of any full sized hives
job done  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

> You remove the hair roller cage and just put the queen cell in
> Once you have moved the bees to your friends apiary providing its a mile or so away all the bees will stay put when you open the hive
> Site the mini nuc out of the flight path of any full sized hives
> job done


Cheers DR.

Next QC due to emerge on friday so I hope to borrow a keiler from same friend and try that.

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## greengumbo

> Cheers DR.
> 
> Next QC due to emerge on friday so I hope to borrow a keiler from same friend and try that.


2nd one in now and on its holidays at mates apiary.

Cheers for the advice  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Good luck with that one what we need is a good patch of weather in about 10 days time 
I have 4 on the go at the moment which will be mating around the same time as your new one  :Smile: 
Plenty drones around at the moment so that's good  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

> Good luck with that one what we need is a good patch of weather in about 10 days time 
> I have 4 on the go at the moment which will be mating around the same time as your new one 
> Plenty drones around at the moment so that's good


Yup - looks like the weather is turning a bit worse though. 

Few quickies:

Do you just leave them alone for the next wee while or do you check to see if the cells have hatched okay ? 

Do they draw the comb on the wee frames only once the queen has mated ?

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## Jon

GG
My standard routine is fill apideas and put cells in a few hours later when they are 24-48 hours from emergence.
Leave apideas stacked up and closed and check for queen emergence 2-3 days later.
Only set out and open apideas (in shade) once the queen is out of the cell, best time to open is at dusk.

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## greengumbo

> GG
> My standard routine is fill apideas and put cells in a few hours later when they are 24-48 hours from emergence.
> Leave apideas stacked up and closed and check for queen emergence 2-3 days later.
> Only set out and open apideas (in shade) once the queen is out of the cell, best time to open is at dusk.


Bugger. So I should have locked them in with the cell for a few days ?

Och well, will see what happens ! I'll check them next weekend for emergence.

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## Jon

A lot of bees abscond if you open the apidea before the queen has emerged especially if there are queenright colonies in the area.
If the cell goes in several days before emergence date, it is often chilled and fails to hatch.

They should start to draw comb immediately.

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## greengumbo

> A lot of bees abscond if you open the apidea before the queen has emerged especially if there are queenright colonies in the area.
> If the cell goes in several days before emergence date, it is often chilled and fails to hatch.
> 
> They should start to draw comb immediately.


Okay. I had a peek in the first one yesterday and the bees were still there. Hopefully this is a good sign.

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## greengumbo

Had a look in both and the first one to emerge was running about looking fat. They had drawn the combs and stored pollen and some stores. Could not see eggs but was just having a quick look.

Never saw the queen in the second but looking at the cell she must have emerged. Again pollen, honey and comb drawn. 

Well chuffed ! Will wait till definite signs of brood before being completely happy though.

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## Jon

Sound good. Very few queens flew and mated this past week.
Fingers crossed for better weather.
If they start to lay, put the excluder on and leave them to lay at least 10-14 days in the apidea.
It's a bad idea to remove them too early as they can be rejected or superseded quickly.

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## greengumbo

> Sound good. Very few queens flew and mated this past week.
> Fingers crossed for better weather.
> If they start to lay, put the excluder on and leave them to lay at least 10-14 days in the apidea.
> It's a bad idea to remove them too early as they can be rejected or superseded quickly.


Think its a wrap for my queen raising this year.

Final one removed from home bodged apidea and put in a mates nuc.

So a nice wee experiment for next year and learnt a lot in the process. Everyone should give it a go.

I think from 12 grafts I got 3 cells drawn with two queens hatched  :Smile:  

The queen-right raising method worked a treat and I was very pleased my home made poly mating nucs did the job. Will do a bit of revision on the design for next year but hoping to have queens going all summer next time round. Thanks for all the advice especially to Jon and DR.

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## gavin

> Think its a wrap for my queen raising this year.


You always did remind me of that actor fellow McGregor from Crieff (younger and more handsome of course), and now you come out with media darling quotes like that to add to my confusion!

You'd have enjoyed Mike Brown's hour-long description of his history in queen raising, and all the ins and outs of the Wilkinson and Brown queen-right method on Saturday.  I have notes somewhere.

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## prakel

> .....and I was very pleased my home made poly mating nucs did the job. *Will do a bit of revision on the design for next year* but hoping to have queens going all summer next time round. Thanks for all the advice especially to Jon and DR.



This can become quite a labour of love or a living hell of hair pulling and stress. What started for me as a cheap way of increasing mating nucs with frames that could be interchanged with the existing mini-plus hives has now turned into an obsession. Amazingly, my best ideas always come after the close of the queen rearing season! 

It'll be interesting though to see the faces at the local bee auction when all of the passable prototypes arrive there for distribution!

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## fatshark

> Think its a wrap for my queen raising this year.


Same here. Just back from a few days in Cornwall. Traffic not too bad so enough time to check if my queens were mated. 2/4 had eggs  :Big Grin: , one had polished cells and the other was being robbed out  :Frown:   These were grafted on the 28th of August. At least one of the queens was mated on the 22nd as she was running around trailing the 'evidence'. Interestingly, these are in three frame nucs and the queen is laying on the inside wall of the central frame - presumably the warmest spot. Final check on Sunday when I'll rearrange them into two 6 frame nucs for the winter.

Grafting success was pretty good. Mating success less so - either good or a total flop for different batches. 

Like GG, I've learnt a lot (again ... ) not least the benefit of fat dummies with an integral feeder to give 100-200ml or so of syrup daily to encourage them to draw the cells out irrespective of the flow.

Finally, next years OSR just showing in the fields surrounding my apiary. Top banana!

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