# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?

## lindsay s

A link to the above article has appeared on the Orkney Beekeepers website although it wasn't posted by Doris I'm sure she will be along shortly.

http://markavery.info/2012/07/09/gue...rss&utm_medium

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## Stromnessbees

Thanks for posting this, Lindsay, yes, it's a very good article. 

Here a short taster:




> In 1991, Bayer CropScience introduced a new type of insecticide into the US; imidacloprid, the first member of a group now known as the neonicotinoids. Bayer Scientist Abbink certified that: _imidacloprid  is the first highly effective insecticide whose mode of action has been  found to derive from almost complete and virtually irreversible  blockage of post synaptic nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs) in  the central nervous system (CNS) of insects._ Imidacloprid differed  from conventional spray pesticides in that it could be used as seed  dressings or soil treatments. When used as a seed dressing the  insecticide will migrate from the stem to the leaf tips, and eventually  into the flowers and pollen. Bees, bumblebees, hoverflies and  butterflies that collect contaminated pollen or nectar from the crop  will ingest a small dose of the toxin, but *any* insect that feeds on the crop will eventually die. ...

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## Jon

Hi Lindsay.
That will be the demise some of us call as a 3 - 4 fold increase in colony numbers in the Uk in the past few years!!!
But I guess that is just another inconvenient fact.

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## gavin

This is the usual hand-wringing, emotional, unsubstantiated, campaigning stuff.

Shall we try another quote?




> *
> What is the truth about the Varroa mite?*
> 
> Pesticide companies and their supporters blame Varroa mite, or one of the many viruses that have been found in dead and dying bees, for Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD). However, infection with Varroa, or any of these pathogens, is a symptom, not a cause.


OK then, nice to see that sorted.  Varroa and viruses aren't a problem, just a symptom.  If it wasn't for neonics then Varroa wouldn't be a problem, it is just the canary in the coalmine or something and we'd all be living in harmony.  Utter bollocks, and typical of the wooly thinking going round (and round and round) some circles.  Were these poor naive folk actually fed this garbage during their trip to Orkney or did they pick it up elsewhere?

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## Bumble

So our bees attract varroa because they've been in contact with pesticides? Strange conclusion.

I have read the whole article, by the way.

If the situation is as bad as they suggest then I don't understand why we, here, aren't noticing the decline in bumble bees and other insects, and why plenty of beekeepers I know are more than happy to drive several miles to take their bees to fields of oil seed rape and other forage crops grown by arable farmers.

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## lindsay s

> Thanks for posting this, Lindsay, yes, it's a very good article.


I never said I agreed with the above article. I just posted the link to keep the neonicotinoid pot boiling. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Rosie

My bees were last exposed to neonics about 4 years ago. When can I look forward to all the mites dying?

Steve

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## Jimbo

That strange, My colonies were checked eg brood, wax and bees by Keele University for pesticides and any other chemicals that may be in the hives and the results came back. There were no pesticides detected. But I am certain those wee red things I keep seeing are varroa.

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## Rosie

Oh No!  That means that Keele's been bought off as well.  We're all doomed.

Steve

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## gavin

Shhh, guys!  You'll upset Doris who, by now, will be convinced that you don't need to keep Varroa out of Orkney after all, just the neonics.

On Radio Scotland yesterday the journalist said that bumble bees had halved in number and it was all down to a virus.  Actually, come to think of it, maybe she was mixing up long-term established honeybee declines and recent work on DWV, but you do get the impression that with bees truth just doesn't matter any more.  Make up stuff and push it out there, no-one will mind.

Lindsay, umm, thanks for posting!  Maybe you could now do the people of Orkney a favour and link on the Orkney Yahoo site to the assessment here of the Mason/Thomas fantasy?  You can even continue to sit on the fence if you like!

Here's some more of that quality blog that Doris loves so much.




> *
> Immune suppression associated with the neonicotinoids*
> 
> Three papers between 2009 and 2012 from Bee Researchers in France and the US show that the administration of tiny amounts of various systemic neonicotinoids (imidacloprid, thiacloprid) and fipronil, to Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) bees was associated with a weakening of bee immunity, such that they became more susceptible to bee diseases. In fact, although Varroa mite had been identified earlier, it wasn’t until 1995 that it started killing bee colonies in the US.  In 2006, full CCD was confirmed in the US, the same time as massive declines in bats were reported as a result of infection with a fungal pathogen, which causes White Nose Syndrome. This pathogen has wiped out whole bat colonies in many parts of the US.


I presume that they are trying to say that the neonics caused the virulence of both Varroa and the bat pathogen?  Or was it that CCD stopped bats navigating home because they all got dizzy?  Maybe that the bat fungus jumped to bees (neonic-aided, of course) and that was the real cause of CCD?  I'm confused, but I suspect that our blogging duo are too.  All goes to show what a difficult multifactorial world we live in, when amounts of toxin that just can't be detected have amazingly potent effects not when the bees are really exposed but 4-5 bee generations later. 

Why not the Black Death too?  OK, it started in Europe back in 1348 but I'm sure some enterprising environmentalist can make a link to modern pesticides somehow.  Bayer's predecessors must have been around then, surely?

The blog makes much of the reputed splat-o-meter data.  If there is real data of that type.  They also laud the biodiversity remaining on Orkney.  I do too.  The reason should be blindingly obvious.  We've wrecked much of the habitat that once existed in farming areas.  The plough, the bulldozer, the herbicides, the drainage works, the fertilisers.  Drive through parts of eastern England and there is little left for wildlife.  Even parts of the Carse of Gowrie.  But here and there there are oases of habitat like there used to be.  My favourited orchard (in a sustainably managed estate but with conventional agriculture and neonic-laced OSR nearby) has butterflies, rare lichens, orchids, other flowers, flies (damn those clegs - it has more than its fair share!), woodpeckers, even a nightjar recently.  It is just big enough to sustain populations of these things.  We need a much more level-headed approach to conserving and expanding these remaining treasures, and not the fantasy world inhabited by some of those who get their words all over the beekeeping press, the mainstream press, the blogosphere, the media.

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## The Drone Ranger

I think the bee forage must have been fantastic in the 1920's judging by colony density in some apiaries from books of that time.
Aberdeen beekeeping association was huge, bigger than the whole SBA now
Honey yields were equally impressive

Perhaps those days will return but it's unlikely

It's not that farmers are less bee friendly than in the halcyon days of beekeeping.
It's that the standard mixed arable farming used in the 1940's suited the bees better
In fact pesticides used at that time could have devastating effects on the environment and bees.

Subsidies are responsible for things like oil seed rape and profit margins for potatoes and grain 
Hence the farms around me rotate those 3 crops endlessly.
All these have applications of fungicide, pesticide, or seed dressings, but on the whole they are less environmentally damaging and safer for bees

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## prakel

> I think the bee forage must have been fantastic in the 1920's judging by colony density in some apiaries from books of that time.
> 
> Perhaps those days will return but it's unlikely
> 
> It's not that farmers are less bee friendly than in the halcyon days of beekeeping.
> It's that the standard mixed arable farming used in the 1940's suited the bees better


I seem to remember reading -from a couple of different sources one of which _may_ have been Sims that those halcyon days of British beekeeping (if they truly were such) during the late twenties and thirties were, to a large degree, the result of the collapsing economy resulting in small farms and larger small-holdings being abandoned and effectively being allowed to run wild.




> In fact pesticides used at that time could have devastating effects on the environment and bees.


Can I recommend that anyone who enjoys reading books about beekeeping should get themselves a copy (I believe there's now a reprint/print on demand copy available) of 'Bees Are My Business' by Harry Whitcombe. Other than being a great story in it's own right it has an interesting chapter on his fight with (from memory) the large scale tomato growers who were detroying colonies by the hundred with their insecticides. -There's also a nice piece about his efforts to convince many growers about the benefit of using bees for polination; where they'd previously looked upon bees collecting pollen and nectar as being detrimental to their crops. Dated, but still a good read.

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## lindsay s

> Lindsay, umm, thanks for posting!  Maybe you could now do the people of Orkney a favour and link on the Orkney Yahoo site to the assessment here of the Mason/Thomas fantasy?  You can even continue to sit on the fence if you like!


To be quite honest Gavin Im not really bothered about neonicotinoids. As far as the environment is concerned I like to keep things simple. If its bug life and it cant be squashed or swotted I will spray it. If its plant life and it cant be cut with a lawnmower or strimmed I will spray it. I like nothing better than being let loose with Glyphosate although nowadays its under the watchful eye of my other half (I was a bit to enthusiastic in the past).
A retired chemist once told me how he used to use cyanide to kill wasps. Im not advocating that we go back to those days.
As long as it does what it says on the tin then I will happily use modern pesticides and herbicides.

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## Bumble

> In fact pesticides used at that time could have devastating effects on the environment and bees.


Mmm, the halcyon days of DDT, derris and home-made concoctions of rhubarb leaves and cigarette ends.

Things are quite expensive these days, and if this site is anything to go by, it looks as if some people still use some of these home-made biocides. It's because they're 'natural', even though using unregulated, unlicensed, untested and un-measured home-made stuff is, apparently, against the rules.

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## Johnthefarmer

> To be quite honest Gavin Im not really bothered about neonicotinoids. As far as the environment is concerned I like to keep things simple. If its bug life and it cant be squashed or swotted I will spray it. If its plant life and it cant be cut with a lawnmower or strimmed I will spray it. I like nothing better than being let loose with Glyphosate although nowadays its under the watchful eye of my other half (I was a bit to enthusiastic in the past).
> A retired chemist once told me how he used to use cyanide to kill wasps. Im not advocating that we go back to those days.
> As long as it does what it says on the tin then I will happily use modern pesticides and herbicides.


It's a good job you're mostly confined to your garden, Lindsay. The environment, whether you like it or not, is not simple; and no label on a tin is going to explain that to you.You sound proud of your limited perspective.Are you really?

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## gavin

> You sound proud of your limited perspective.Are you really?


Isn't it telling that Lindsay has waited all this time to reveal his own philosophy in his garden?  Times have changed when folk behaving in the way the majority of gardeners do are inhibited from talking about it - then criticised like this.

In defence of Lindsay, his perspective isn't limited, it is just different.  In fact it is mainstream.  Too bad if you and Doris don't like it, John.  Get over it, move on, and if you are personally active in the Orkney beekeepers group, leave it at home.  I'm also going to ask you to leave at home any more critical comments directed at Lindsay that you might think of bringing to SBAi.  This isn't the place for it and I doubt that anywhere is.

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## AlexJ

[QUOTE=I'm also going to ask you to leave at home any more critical comments directed at Lindsay that you might think of bringing to SBAi.  This isn't the place for it and I doubt that anywhere is.[/QUOTE]

Gavin, given the language used on the forum when contrary points of view are debated John's comments above are positively mild mannered.


What exactly constitutes a critical comment that is unsatisfactory?

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## gavin

Lindsay has conspicuously avoided getting drawn in to these disputes until now.  I read his post at frustration with the aggressively expressed view dominating the output from Orkney.  The truth is that they both have the right - legal and moral - to manage their land in the way they wish.  

John's reply could have been the start of a nasty exchange between people from one small community and one even smaller beekeeping community.  I'm trying to prevent that.  I'm reacting to someone telling a forum member who avoids conflict and has stayed outside these debates that he seems proud of his limited perspective.  There is nothing limited about Lindsay's perspective, it is just different from John's.

If you have issues with the way I reacted to the blog by Mason and Thomas, I stand by my comments that they are bonkers and the content is fantasy.  There is no way that is a sensible message to give people on bees and beekeeping.  I'm proud of the relatively informed debate on here, and when someone (Doris, in this case) is so enthusiastic about something so flawed, I'm going to challenge that strongly.  When that someone has accused me personally of being paid for my interventions and not properly apologised for that, sprayed spam all over the forum, and taken her accusations to other bee fora internationally, I will not be holding back.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi guy's let's not be too grumpy with one another
After all we want to read different viewpoints or we wouldn't come to the forum.
Were not here for a slugfest are we  :Smile: 

Here's something I clipped from elsewhere it was posted in 2009

We are trying to convert a farm in West Wales/Carmarthen, to be permaculture/organic and would love to keep bees – is there somewhere in our area we can learn more? Are varroa or CCD a problem here?

The poster was on a site concerned with Organic Beekeeping, specifically the Warre hive, which I have been reading about since Nellie mentioned under supering or nadiring I think its called, sorry about the spelling 
(the spellchecker suggested "marinading" ) can't see that working myself  :Smile: 

Now what is the greater threat, someone growing oil seed rape or the next door beekeeper setting up half a dozen warre hives without any idea of bee diseases (other than what they read in the papers about varroa and CCD) and believing that the solution to bee disease is a type of hive,

They're in your back yard Nellie flush them out Lol!

Strangely no-one on that site suggested joining a local association or reading a normal bee book plenty suggestions for 17th and 18th century ones though  :Smile:

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## Trog

I've been a mostly-organic gardener all my life but have on occasions resorted to glyphosate and am currently using a 'normal' tomato feed in my home-made (organic) growbags because there was nothing else available at the ironmongers and the comfrey has vanished (deer?). I use slug pellets in the greenhouse because otherwise I'd lose everything in there.   I don't use pesticides, mostly because I don't have the time or feel the need to do so and am quite happy to buy veg if a crop fails.  Commercial growers don't have this luxury; they need to protect their livelihood.  If as a family we ate only organically-produced food our diet would be (a) very restricted (b) limited in quantity due to the expense.  Yes, it would be lovely to get back to Eden, with no pests or diseases and no thorns and thistles either (and no midges ... bliss!), but the way's been barred since Adam and Eve blew it and we poor humans have to muddle along as best we can in the meantime.  If that includes GM crops and neonics, in the absence of anything better, so be it.

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## Johnthefarmer

> Isn't it telling that Lindsay has waited all this time to reveal his own philosophy in his garden?  Times have changed when folk behaving in the way the majority of gardeners do are inhibited from talking about it - then criticised like this.
> 
> In defence of Lindsay, his perspective isn't limited, it is just different.  In fact it is mainstream.  Too bad if you and Doris don't like it, John.  Get over it, move on, and if you are personally active in the Orkney beekeepers group, leave it at home.  I'm also going to ask you to leave at home any more critical comments directed at Lindsay that you might think of bringing to SBAi.  This isn't the place for it and I doubt that anywhere is.



   So, I've just been admonished by the administrator of a beekeepers' forum for criticising a fellow beekeeper for the gungho use of herbicides and pesticides, in his garden.
   Why?

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## Trog

Possibly because this forum is for everyone, not just the organic gardeners amongst us?  By all means, lambast a pesticide/herbicide user on a 'bio' forum but this is meant to be a friendly place where folk can chat about bees and beekeeping and get balanced advice rather than a soapbox for individual preferences.

It would be just as wrong for me to post threads along the lines of, 'lady beekeepers are better for bees because ...'

Even though we are [dons tin hat and waits for a furious response from the lads ...]  :Wink:

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## Jon

Well said Trog.

I could get up on a soap box about a lot of things but this is not the place. And I am an organic gardener who does not use either roundup or slug pellets!

The irritating thing is that each and every one of us knows that pesticides can cause great harm to bees but the debate has been hijacked with regard to one family of pesticides - neonicotinoids.
There is a vast body of research out there for anyone who cares to browse it and the huge majority of published papers indicate that at field realistic levels this family of pesticides causes little or no harm to bees. There are a couple of papers which flag up some dangers out of many hundreds published. Nosema interactions is one possible worry area. Planter dust when maize is sown is another.
The stuff about oil seed rape and queen problems is abject nonsense without a shred of evidence as per usual.

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## Johnthefarmer

From the responses so far it seems that it's ok for a beekeeper to spray stuff willy-nilly about his own garden, advertise his actions, be supported by admin and other 'mainstream' supporters, but ungallant of a fellow islander, who farms organically. has Great Yellows on his land etc to suggest that sometimes it's necessary to think beyond the label on the tin!

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## Johnthefarmer

> Well said Trog.
> 
> I could get up on a soap box about a lot of things but this is not the place. And I am an organic gardener who does not use either roundup or slug pellets!
> 
> The irritating thing is that each and every one of us knows that pesticides can cause great harm to bees but the debate has been hijacked with regard to one family of pesticides - neonicotinoids.
> There is a vast body of research out there for anyone who cares to browse it and the huge majority of published papers indicate that at field realistic levels this family of pesticides causes little or no harm to bees. There are a couple of papers which flag up some dangers out of many hundreds published. Nosema interactions is one possible worry area. Planter dust when maize is sown is another.
> The stuff about oil seed rape and queen problems is abject nonsense without a shred of evidence as per usual.


If this is not the place for Scottish beekeepers to argue about stuff that might threaten our bees, where else is?
  I personally don't just rant against neonics. My own experience demonstrates that there are cleverer ways of operating than killing every last living thing on your land that you can't sell. Most of those beasties are beneficial, and if they're not you should probably think why not and change your system rather them zapping them.

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## lindsay s

Hello John first of all Im not offended by any comments posted by you or Doris. Our paths do cross occasionally and we have attended bee meetings in each others homes.
Im not proud of using pesticides and herbicides Im just being practical. Walk into any garden centre and you will see shelves full of the stuff, do you think Im the only person out there using them. Our flower and vegetable patch is guarded by my partner and is off limits to me but if something needs spraying I have no qualms about doing it.
 I first took an interest in beekeeping in the late seventies and only acquired my first hive after numerous visits to my mentors apiary. In those days the general perception of beekeepers was that they were grumpy old men or eccentric spinsters, being in my late teens I thought I broke the mould. In reality most of todays long term beekeepers probably got started the same way as me. There were no rules saying you had to love the planet.
 My perception of most of the people who have recently jumped on the beekeeping bandwagon is that they are trendy thirty somethings or tree huggers out to save the planet. I think most of the thirty somethings will be using their expensive well-insulated Beehauss as wine coolers in a few years time. As for the tree huggers the less said about them the better but dont expect me to bang the neonicotinoid drum.
I keep bees because I like honey and find them interesting.

Lindsay                

P.S. John until your great yellows can fly the 15 plus miles to my garden you should have no problems from me.

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## gavin

Give it a rest John.  This is a beekeeping forum.  Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda.  They can keep Buckfasts, Italians, Carnies, Caucasians, or ultra-pure Scottish native blacks.  They can welcome or eschew all the latest chemical crutches for beekeeping.  They can even support RNAi methods in beekeeping if they like.  GM bees (not my cup of tea), Africanised bees, stingless bees.  They can keep bees for fun, for honey, for profit, for loss, to pollinate their crops, for stinging therapy, or just to provide natural fertiliser for the garden.  They can choose whatever means of transport they wish, they can vote for whatever political party takes their fancy.  Sexual orientation not an issue.  Religion.  Believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, little green men, alien abduction, chemtrails even.  Gardening methodologies and philosophy.  All OK with us .... until anyone tries ramming their own ideas down someone else's throat.  *That* is an issue.  So please, give it a rest.

G.

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## Bumble

Thank you.

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## HJBee

> My perception of most of the people who have recently jumped on the beekeeping bandwagon is that they are trendy thirty somethings or tree huggers out to save the planet.


I am getting my own colony this week coming, after getting into beekeeping for general environmental / ecological reasons & a general interest in Nature. I am 40 in Sept, damn 👎 looks like I just possibly fit your stereotype in both classes!! 😉

I do admire your honesty, even if I don't choose to apply the same methods! 👏

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## Neils

Not 40 until January and never been accused of being trendy  :Big Grin:   Do I have to get a beehaus? I really don't want one.

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## Johnthefarmer

> Give it a rest John.  This is a beekeeping forum.  Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda.  They can keep Buckfasts, Italians, Carnies, Caucasians, or ultra-pure Scottish native blacks.  They can welcome or eschew all the latest chemical crutches for beekeeping.  They can even support RNAi methods in beekeeping if they like.  GM bees (not my cup of tea), Africanised bees, stingless bees.  They can keep bees for fun, for honey, for profit, for loss, to pollinate their crops, for stinging therapy, or just to provide natural fertiliser for the garden.  They can choose whatever means of transport they wish, they can vote for whatever political party takes their fancy.  Sexual orientation not an issue.  Religion.  Believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, little green men, alien abduction, chemtrails even.  Gardening methodologies and philosophy.  All OK with us .... until anyone tries ramming their own ideas down someone else's throat.  *That* is an issue.  So please, give it a rest.
> 
> G.


This section of the forum is  Beekeeping and the Environment. This is my field of interst.
    I have two hives on my farm, I have made and fixed Smith's and KTBs. We also have several species of bumblebees. Our AMM's have been carefully bred and protected for many generations. We are free of varroa, and most other threats except, I suppose, our latitude.
           I will not 'give it a rest'. If I think I have something to say, I'll say it. If you don't like it , or can't  manage it, just stay out of it.

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## prakel

> Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda.


Should I be loading my dadants and moving on?!!

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## prakel

I think it's a shame that there have been so many threads recently which have taken a rather agressive tone due to differing views with regards to the neonics debate.

When a man can echo Kirk Webster by writing the following...




> My own experience demonstrates that there are cleverer ways of operating than killing every last living thing on your land that you can't sell. Most of those beasties are beneficial, and if they're not you should probably think why not and change your system rather them zapping them.


he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to. The problem is the way that people are tending to present their arguments; each camp taking unmovable positions when no one actually knows for certain -there would be no debate if absolute conclusive proof was available.

OK, I personally tend to believe that there are far greater dangers to the bees than are being addressed in this debate but I stand by what I've written before with regards to keeping an open mind untill such time as those who are cleverer than myself have presented their conclusive proof one way or another -even then, varroa and nosema will still be the major contributing factors to any general downturn (supposed or real) in bee health. The problem is that I'm starting to feel alienated from both camps because of the way some of the information is being presented not only here but on other forums too.

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## gavin

> I will not 'give it a rest'. If I think I have something to say, I'll say it. If you don't like it , or can't  manage it, just stay out of it.


You might not like this, but I currently administer this forum.  That means that either myself or my wee helpers will intervene from time to time, and if your zeal causes you to get too personal then we will not just advise you against it but act to stop you.  Come on here to talk beekeeping and be respectful of others' views and you will be made welcome.

If you prefer a forum where unquestioning acceptance of the more extreme end of the pro-organic spectrum holds sway and the administrator and moderators have exactly the views you seem to want from those helping run communities of beekeepers, then I'm sure that you know Phil Chandler's site. 

Oh yes, Prakel, Dadants are in too.  Dadants in England, no problem.  Anyone, anywhere, willing to contribute to beekeeping discussion and retain a polite, respectful attitude, you're in.  Thoughtful beekeepers, different perspectives, intelligent contributors, willing to discuss the difficult issues without getting patronising or too heated, bit of a twinkle in the eye and a sense of humour, even better!

G.

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## prakel

> Oh yes, Prakel, Dadants are in too.  Dadants in England, no problem.


I'm glad to hear that -don't fancy moving them to new pastures as a third of them are in an apiary on the side of a large pond which has recently spread to encompass the hive stands. But at least not as bad as Chris Slade up the road who's apparently had a couple of colonies washed away recently.

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## Jon

> he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to.


My sympathies are firmly with the organic camp but I happen to believe, based on best available evidence, that the neonicotinoid debate is a red herring with regard to bee problems.
Like JTF, I would not use sprays or pesticides in my garden and I prefer to live with the weeds.
I dislike killing anything to such an extent that I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years.
I make a notable exception for wasps!!
I don't own or drive a car.
I grow a lot of my own food, you get the picture.

What I cannot abide is the aggression and the pomposity of some who are self appointed spokes people for the organic movement or the lefties.
I can think for myself thank you very much without having child like arguments and flawed logic rammed down my throat by people for whom logic and evidence are alien concepts.

That and the constant accusation that anyone who opposes the unreferenced drivel is a 'shill' or a pesticide apologist.

The real harm is being done by those getting research monies channeled in the wrong direction.

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## Trog

Hmm, interesting, Jon.  Why do you kill wasps?  They're great for getting rid of cabbage white caterpillars.  They can be a nuisance around hives in autumn but we don't find them a major problem so only remove wasp nests if they're a danger to us or guests where they are.  Himself was mortified last year when he accidentally stood on a wasp nest while picking blackcurrants .. not because he got stung (he didn't) but because they died as a result!  It was a bad year for brassicas because of it; what the caterpillars didn't munch the deer finished off  :Frown:

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## chris

Most of us have an opinion about pesticides in general. Where things get complicated is the relationship between pesticides and bees, because some papers say this and some say that; and some people use the lack of consensus to persue their own ends.In whatever direction. Why bees? Why not the problems of pesticide contact for exploited farm workers? Or whatever. Bees are rather lucky in France- when the powerful get together to approve or disapprove the marketing of a particular pesticide, there is a"bee group" which gives its opinion, which can stop the pesticide getting approved. There is no such group for most other living species.
But what I really don't understand is why bee forums are polluted with all these threads. If I wanted to stop pesticides, I'd be trying to convince the farmers who use them that they'd be better off not doing so. Beekeepers aren't the ones spraying the fields . It's a bit like trying to persuade someone who has been shot that guns are not good.

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## Jon

> Hmm, interesting, Jon.  Why do you kill wasps?


Wasps and Apideas do not mix once you get to August.
When you find they have killed half a dozen laying queens you start to lose patience although I do appreciate that they have their benefits especially earlier in the season.

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## prakel

Jon, when I wrote




> he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to.


I was actually making a general observation to the effect that he's proably got a lot of 'stuff' which it would be worth hearing about, stuff outside of the pesticide debate. Stuff which he has observed and experienced at first hand during his agricultural career. I reckon, based on a couple of his earlier posts, that most of us would find value in his experiences even if not directly applicable to our daily lives; such posts would add real value to this forum. 

Possibly I'm at fault for not making _that_ clearer to begin with but I did go on to point out that I don't like the way that a lot of the arguments are being presented; no, I didn't specify 'John's arguments' but I certainly didn't exclude them either.

Then we come to your direct reply to me...   




> My sympathies are firmly with the organic camp but I happen to believe, based on best available evidence, that the neonicotinoid debate is a red herring with regard to bee problems.
> Like JTF, I would not use sprays or pesticides in my garden and I prefer to live with the weeds.
> I dislike killing anything to such an extent that I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years.
> I make a notable exception for wasps!!
> I don't own or drive a car.
> I grow a lot of my own food, *you get the picture*.


Yes, i think that I do.





> What I cannot abide is the aggression and the pomposity of some who are self appointed spokes people for the organic movement or the lefties.
> *I can think for myself thank you very much* without having child like arguments and flawed logic rammed down my throat by people for whom logic and evidence are alien concepts.
> 
> That and the constant accusation that anyone who opposes the unreferenced drivel is a 'shill' or a pesticide apologist.
> 
> The real harm is being done by those getting research monies channeled in the wrong direction.


I share a disike for aggression and pomposity which was pretty much what my post which you've quoted was about. I don't like to feel that I'm being shouted at by either side because like you, I too am capable of thinking for myself.

----------


## Jon

Hi prakel. I think we are pretty much in agreement.

----------


## Trog

> But what I really don't understand is why bee forums are polluted with all these threads. If I wanted to stop pesticides, I'd be trying to convince the farmers who use them that they'd be better off not doing so. Beekeepers aren't the ones spraying the fields . It's a bit like trying to persuade someone who has been shot that guns are not good.


An excellent point, well put.

----------


## Trog

Ah, yes, Jon.  I can see that wasps would be a nuisance to apideas, though you must have considerably more wasps than we ever get.  We don't even have problems with wasps eating plums (on the few occasions we get any on the trees) here, which is a blessing as I grew up having to be very cautious when picking fruit in Yorkshire.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Wasps and Apideas do not mix once you get to August.
> When you find they have killed half a dozen laying queens you start to lose patience although I do appreciate that they have their benefits especially earlier in the season.


The secret here is the wasps life cycle 
In the early part of the year they collect protein
Luckily that includes lots of caterpillars --hooray !!!

The reason is that they feed this protein to the wasp larvae 
The larvae reward the feeding by producing a drop of sweet liquid
Adult wasps work for the reward Hooray again !!

Later in the year the queen wasp slows her laying and the number of larvae drops
That means there is less sweet rewards available for the adult wasps Aawww!!

Then adult wasps get grumpy and sting everything  BOOO!!!
They go delinquent and look for anything sweet like jammy dodgers Booo!!
And if they find a box full of lovely sweet honey they are striped hooligan shoplifters
Bar stewards!!!

So in spring/summer be nice to wasps but in summer/autumn take them out  :Smile:

----------


## Bridget

> I think it's a shame that there have been so many threads recently which have taken a rather agressive tone due to differing views with regards to the neonics debate.
> . The problem is that I'm starting to feel alienated from both camps because of the way some of the information is being presented not only here but on other forums too.


I agree with this comment.  It's only a year I've been following this forum and sometimes it makes sad and uncomfortable reading.  I wonder if your following is going up or down

----------


## Johnthefarmer

[QUOTE=prakel;12368]I think it's a shame that there have been so many threads recently which have taken a rather agressive tone due to differing views with regards to the neonics debate.

  I also acknowledge that the neonics arguments get heated and aggressive. 
  There's a  good reason for this. It's the imbalance of the resources of the protagonists. Basically the fact that the pro-nics include several multinational companies with massive vested interests, in-house scientists, publicity systems (probably including 'shills') etc, whereas the antis are a disparate bunch with fewer resources of money, time, organisation etc.
  This can lead to the antis  feeling overwhelmed and frustrated, and shouting louder to compensate .
   It's reminiscent of the rows about the benefits and harms due to soluble nitrogen fertilisers, which started, maybe in the sixties, and still go on today but with a much clearer understanding of the issues at hand.
  For many years, there was denial, or at least downplaying, of such things as run- off pollution, suppression of clovers, increased susceptibility to disease of crops which were also less dense in nutrients ,and so required additional fungicides, etc.
  The pro blue bag camp had all the backing that pronics have today. Tree huggers, wooly- jumpered hippies, Japanese rice farmers and local anglers all felt they had to shout pretty loud to be heard past the massive commercial interests, mainsteam opinion and disinformation they were faced with.
 I don't say that the two situations are exactly equivalent, just nearly.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> But what I really don't understand is why bee forums are polluted with all these threads. If I wanted to stop pesticides, I'd be trying to convince the farmers who use them that they'd be better off not doing so. Beekeepers aren't the ones spraying the fields . It's a bit like trying to persuade someone who has been shot that guns are not good.


If someone who gets shot with a gun is persuaded by his mates just to be thankful at least it wasn't a cruise missile,and just accept it gracefully,guns become acceptable generally.
 Yes, it is the farmers, agribusinesses, biofuel producers, governments and regulators who most need persuading, but that only happens if individuals and pressure groups kick up a fuss.
 The fuss also has to be well-grounded, correctly informed and seen to be in humanity's, and in our case, bees', best interests.

----------


## prakel

> I also acknowledge that the neonics arguments get heated and aggressive. 
> *There's a  good reason for this.*


We'll have to disagree on this. 





> ...*all felt they had to shout pretty loud to be heard past the massive commercial interests*, mainsteam opinion and disinformation they were faced with.


Maybe, but shouting the wrong things don't make them right.

re the varroa/viruses are a sympton quote. Interesting, especially in the light of a post which I made a couple of weeks ago on another thread

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...pring-Without-    (POST NUMBER 16)

 regarding Richard Adee who lost 30,000+ colonies to CCD; he was very clear that the findings of laboratory analysis of what was left of his collapsing colonies indicated that they had succumbed to viral infections. Sure, anyone can put a spin on this and say that they were initially wakened by neonicotinoids but that fails to explain why since starting to treat them his colonies have displayed no major health issues.

----------


## EmsE

Whilst there may be cause for debates becoming heated, there is never a good enough reason for them becoming aggressive. All parties entering a discussion need to accept that everyone is an individual and therefore has their own personal points of view, just like religion.
Pesticides still have a lot of issues to be debated, however aggressive arguments are not going to resolve them. One point to consider though is if it is later shown that the effects of pesticides are not as bad as those shouting the loudest are claiming, what will the impact be on the public to believe anything bee keepers are concerned about in the future?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

Just like to point out that my own most outrageous insult on this thread has been 'limited perspective'.
 Gavin, our illustrious admin, has used 'bollocks', 'bonkers',' fantasy','garbage'etc. in his analysis of the article in question.
 I agree that insults and aggressive comments are rarely effective.

----------


## Jon

The most outrageous comment by a country mile is the insinuation that people are being paid to act as stooges of big corporations.
It is also a laugh to suggest that the debate is some sort of a David and Goliath contest with all the cards being held by Bayer and its ilk.
For a start the entire UK mainstream and tabloid press is publishing articles claiming that Neonicotinoids are killing bees and causing CCD.
This happens because the anti pesticide campaigners are feeding lazy journalists with inaccurate press releases which get printed almost verbatim in some cases.
If you read the likes of beekeepingforum it seems that the vast majority of posters have already decided that neonicotinoids are a big problem for bees.
How much of this is based on hearsay and internet forum comments as opposed to diligent reading and research, I could not possibly comment.
The main issue here is that one camp wants to ban neonicotinoids irrespective of best available evidence and the rest are digging for the truth, sometimes with a pin!
As I have said many times, if the evidence were there I would be first in line calling for a ban.
I love my beekeeping hobby and would not knowingly take decisions which were detrimental to my bees.
My colonies are beside oil seed rape and my colony numbers just keep increasing. 26 including nucs at the last count. No swarms yet either.  Last year I got 110 native queens mated. The number will be lower this year because of the weather.
I suspect that some of those complaining about the effect of oil seed rape on bees have no experience at all of having bees anywhere near it.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> The most outrageous comment by a country mile is the insinuation that people are being paid to act as stooges of big corporations.
> It is also a laugh to suggest that the debate is some sort of a David and Goliath contest with all the cards being held by Bayer and its ilk.
> For a start the entire UK mainstream and tabloid press is publishing articles claiming that Neonicotinoids are killing bees and causing CCD.
> This happens because the anti pesticide campaigners are feeding lazy journalists with inaccurate press releases which get printed almost verbatim in some cases.
> If you read the likes of beekeepingforum it seems that the vast majority of posters have already decided that neonicotinoids are a big problem for bees.
> How much of this is based on hearsay and internet forum comments as opposed to diligent reading and research, I could not possibly comment.
> The main issue here is that one camp wants to ban neonicotinoids irrespective of best available evidence and the rest are digging for the truth, sometimes with a pin!
> As I have said many times, if the evidence were there I would be first in line calling for a ban.
> I love my beekeeping hobby and would not knowingly take decisions which were detrimental to my bees.
> ...


I hope this link works.I'm not very skilled at these things. It's one of many studies suggesting that the special effect of neonics is that, in social insects, its main lethal effect is not on those creatures which ingest it, but on the general colony health and defensive systems, once they return home. Exactly the same claim made by Bayer relating to the efficacy of Imidacloprid against Termites.
The link is http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02123.x/full .I will attempt to give a more user friendly link later.
 Look,Jon, I don't really think we're on different sides. I certainly hope not. But to suggest that Bayer, Sygenta, Monsanto etc. do not resort to underhand behaviour to protect their products is naive. It's like saying 'trust your bank/ insurance company/pension fund to look after you'- experience surely suggests not.

----------


## Jon

I agree. We should not be on different sides. We are both worried about the state of beekeeping and agriculture. 
I trust the likes of Bayer as far as I can throw them but that does not mean all the science relating to neonics over the past 20 years is a lie. For that to be true you have to invoke a massive conspiracy that most of the scientists and researchers are paid stooges and I do not believe that to be true.

There are some papers which suggest that neonicotinoids could be a problem for bees but there are dozens if not hundreds which have looked at field realistic doses in pollen and nectar and found no signs of ill health - sub lethal effects or otherwise. With a product like imidacloprid, pollen and nectar usually have pesticide residue levels of 1-5 ppb and problems do not seem to kick in until levels of 50-100ppb, ie there is a fair margin of safety. the LD 50 is higher still but I agree with those who point out that LD50 is not a particularly useful concept when problems could occur at sub lethal levels.

I can only reiterate what I see in my own bees and I manage a reasonable number of colonies.
I had problems with nosema in nucs the winter before last but this seems to have disappeared after adding thymol to the winter feed last October.
My bees have never looked healthier which in a way is a surprise given 3 months of solid rain.

Guys like Murray Mc Gregor who manage thousands of colonies sing the praises of oil seed rape.
Why would he do that if it was economic suicide?

There are certainly some problems with neonics but they really do not seem to apply to the UK.
Planter dust during maize drilling, soil injection around fruit trees, chemigation etc.
We don't really go in for that but the Americans do bigtime.

As someone above pointed out, crying wolf by overstating the damage will lead to beekeepers losing credibility.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> I agree. We should not be on different sides. We are both worried about the state of beekeeping and agriculture. 
> I trust the likes of Bayer as far as I can throw them but that does not mean all the science relating to neonics over the past 20 years is a lie. For that to be true you have to invoke a massive conspiracy that most of the scientists and researchers are paid stooges and I do not believe that to be true.
> 
> There are some papers which suggest that neonicotinoids could be a problem for bees but there are dozens if not hundreds which have looked at field realistic doses in pollen and nectar and found no signs of ill health - sub lethal effects or otherwise. With a product like imidacloprid, pollen and nectar usually have pesticide residue levels of 1-5 ppb and problems do not seem to kick in until levels of 50-100ppb, ie there is a fair margin of safety. the LD 50 is higher still but I agree with those who point out that LD50 is not a particularly useful concept when problems could occur at sub lethal levels.
> 
> I can only reiterate what I see in my own bees and I manage a reasonable number of colonies.
> I had problems with nosema in nucs the winter before last but this seems to have disappeared after adding thymol to the winter feed last October.
> My bees have never looked healthier which in a way is a surprise given 3 months of solid rain.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that you think that neonics, when used responsibly, are fairly innocuous to honeybees, bumbles, ladybirds, butterflies, moths, worms,and nice beasties in general.
I refute that. The concept of farmers creating green deserts yielding only their cashcrop is very flawed. The only way to go in such a scenario it to continually compensate one excess with another one.

----------


## Jon

If you think neonicotinoids are more harmful than other types of pesticide sprayed over plants you would need to provide proper evidence.
I don't think that anyone denied that pesticides can be harmful to non target species but the exaggerated focus on neonicotinoids is not healthy imho.

I think the real problem is monoculture, as you say green deserts, and lack of diversity in modern farming. That is not solely a pesticide problem although it is clearly a factor
There are many ways that modern agriculture could create better and more diverse habitat without necessarily having to ban neonicotinoids.
Hedgerows, forage strips, heritage varieties of crop, etc.
The roundup ready type of agriculture lends itself to monoculture and that is herbicide rather than pesticide.
The focus on neonicotinoids masks some of the wider issues about keeping a species rich environment.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Just like to point out that my own most outrageous insult on this thread has been 'limited perspective'.
> *
>  Gavin, our illustrious admin, has used 'bollocks', 'bonkers',' fantasy','garbage'etc. in his analysis of the article in question.*
> 
> I agree that insults and aggressive comments are rarely effective.


The yellow bar which displays the forum guidelines says 



> ... Like all internet discussion fora it can contain humour and banter  that may not be appreciated by all.  *The only rule is not to be abusive.* ...


I don't know who wrote it, but Gavin seems to be oblivious to it.

Having met Rosemary Mason while she was up in Orkney I have to say that she is a wonderful person who knows exactly what she is talking about and who hasn't come to her conclusions lightheartedly. 

For anybody to hurl such insults at her is outrageous and that this should come from the administrator himself, who is supposed to assume a neutral position, is indicative of a major flaw in the setup of this forum.

----------


## Jon

You might need to re-read what Gavin wrote as it was directed at the ridiculous statements and claims rather than the person who made them who I am sure we can all agree is probably a very nice person. Rubbish claims though. No evidence. Wonder if someone spoon fed her that nonsense. Has a familiar ring to it.

----------


## gavin

Thanks for the 'illustrious' tag, Doris!  Didn't know that Jon was writing something similar while I was drafting this, but here goes anyway.

I have no doubt that Rosemary is a lovely person to sit and have a cup of tea with.  The trouble is that she is in cloud cuckoo land regarding bees.  Doris claims that to 'hurl such insults at her is outrageous'?!!  Doris, my strongest words were reserved for the blog, not the person.  Calm down dear, calm down.

As for 'major flaws in the setup', ah yes, I am aware of the trouble being fomented by, erm, troublemakers so your return to the forum is most timely.  All I want to say is that anyone coming relatively fresh to this thread really must inform themselves of Doris' earlier behaviour and be aware that 'JohntheFarmer' is Doris' partner.

She made accusations in one late-night posting spree all across the subfora here and on other UK national and international bee fora that there was some sort of secret conspiracy with discussions behind the scenes suddenly revealed for the world to see (?!) and that the forum was being abused by 'shills', paid propagandists.  I tidied the mess she'd made and put a single copy of her post into this thread:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...sbees-outburst

If you didn't click the Beesource link in that thread above and wish to see how her accusations were received there (Beesource is a US-based beekeeping forum, probably the largest internationally), here it is again.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ekeeping-Forum

Quite an insight to what was going on in Doris' head.

I really don't know why we tolerated Doris on here after that.  Looking back on it, it doesn't make sense.  However we did, and she continued to divert threads, blogs and the News front page comments to the neonic issue until we restricted her activity to the main forum.  

So, for those being directed to this thread with no experience of the history of this forum, Doris, currently secretary of the Orkney Beekeepers Association, has shown herself to be not just robust but aggressive and - how can I put this politely - somewhat bizarre in her conclusions.  Just go and read it folks.  Read around some of the other threads too, and remember that we have tidied some of this but not censored anything that has been said.

So for those who care to object to me being passionate about things I feel passionate about (like the misuse of science to prove a point) then, too bad.  Passion is what you'll get.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> You might need to re-read what Gavin wrote as *it was directed at the ridiculous statements and claims rather than the person* who made them who I am sure we can all agree is probably a very nice person. Rubbish claims though. No evidence. Wonder if someone spoon fed her that nonsense. Has a familiar ring to it.


incorrect again, Jon:

look here



> Here's some more of that quality blog that Doris loves so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				                                                         Originally Posted by *The Mason and Thomas fantasy bloggers* 
> *
> Immune suppression associated with the neonicotinoids ...*


and here:



> If you have issues with the way I reacted to the  blog by Mason and Thomas, I stand by my comments that* they are bonkers*  and the content is fantasy.


Pretty insulting I would say. 

Maybe Gavin wants to apologise for that?

----------


## Jon

The comments are bonkers Doris and the blog is pure fantasy.

Lighten up. You have made more personal comments against other posters than the rest of the forum combined.
maybe you should re-read some of your own posts.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Doris, my strongest words were reserved for the blog, not the person.


True, as *bollocks* is a stronger word than _bonkers_ and *fantasy bloggers* - which you did direct at the authors, no need to deny it.

I think any of those is utterly inappropriate though.

----------


## Jon

Let's hope he did not use the word *bollocks* in the *Buster Gonad* thread.
He could get a ban for tautology.

Am I the only man (or woman) who feels like we have a* sense of humour* deficit in this thread at the moment.

What is a bigger insult bonkers or shill?

----------


## Stromnessbees

> The comments are bonkers Doris and the blog is pure fantasy.


_

They are bonkers_  refers to the authors.
_Fantasy bloggers_ refers to the authors.

No need for any more false claims.

----------


## gavin

LOL, you really need to get out more Doris.  

Do you really believe the comments on Varroa to be accurate?

----------


## Jon

Apparently simple exposure to the colour yellow acts as a magnet for varroa.
That must be true. I read it in a blog on the internet.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> LOL, you really need to get out more Doris.  
> 
> Do you really believe the comments on Varroa to be accurate?


You have been very insulting to the authors of that article, Gavin, and now you are trying to distract from it, when I think an apology is in order.

----------


## Jon

I am still looking out for the apology about shills on biobees.com where you posted a load of smears about this forum and some of the posters who frequent it.
If you want to get on a high horse be careful about accusations of hypocrisy.

You never post anything about bees or beekeeping anymore. 
Is beekeeping really just all about neonicotinoid pesticides from your point of view now?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

Jon, you never did comment on this http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02123.x/full  which seems to me relevant to the current discussion. I think it finds in favour of the Mason and Thomas claim regarding a synergy between Imidacloprid and nosema: ie.if bees take one they're more susceptible to the other. Would this be a correct interpretation of their findings?

----------


## Jon

I have mentioned myself several times on this very Sbai site that an interaction between nosema and neonicotinoid pesticides is one to keep on the radar.
Jeff Pettis whose research mirrored that of Alaux did comment that what he saw in the lab was not being seen in the field for some reason. But I agree it is an area which needs further research.

----------


## gavin

> Let's hope he did not use the word *bollocks* in the *Buster Gonad* thread.
> He could get a ban for tautology.
> 
> Am I the only man (or woman) who feels like we have a* sense of humour* deficit in this thread at the moment.
> 
> What is a bigger insult bonkers or shill?


Well, you know what happens when you try to use humour to defuse the tension when Doris is around.

Your *BOLDING* and _italicising_ did almost raise a wry smile.  Actually, not _italicising_ but underlining.

I think I'm going back to just blank Doris again.  Have the feeling I'm feeding a troll.  (Was that an insult?  No, just an observation.)

----------


## Jon

I love this thread.

Only 5 posts but contains three conspiracy theories including one from Uncle Phil himself

----------


## Stromnessbees

> I think I'm going back to just blank Doris again.


Yes, much more convenient than admitting that you have acted out of order again. 

Won't be long and Nellie will find a reason to close the thread, just like the last time you got yourself into trouble.

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Neils

Given the rising amount of feedback about the tone of the forum, carry on as you are and you won't leave me with much choice.  It's frankly, tiresome that I have to spend so much of my time on here wondering what shenanigans team Doris are going to pull next.

I said I'd no longer engage with you except as a moderator of this forum and so here I am _still_ having to get involved in your petty efforts to goad people into reacting to you so you can complain how hard done by you are.

It's a shame, I remember when you used to come here to talk about bees rather than pick fights.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Given the rising amount of feedback about the tone of the forum, carry on as you are and you won't leave me with much choice.  It's frankly, tiresome that I have to spend so much of my time on here wondering what shenanigans team Doris are going to pull next.
> 
> I said I'd no longer engage with you except as a moderator of this forum and so here I am _still_ having to get involved in your petty efforts to goad people into reacting to you so you can complain how hard done by you are.
> 
> It's a shame, I remember when you used to come here to talk about bees rather than pick fights.


I am only standing up for people who have been insulted by leading forum members. 
Is it so difficult to come up with an apology for this objectionable behaviour?

----------


## Jon

> Is it so difficult to come up with an apology for this objectionable behaviour?


You go first on biobees!

----------


## Johnthefarmer

Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?



Letter sent (February 22, 2010) by Stefano MAINI to Science .

Honey bee: Lets Talk about Colony Losses Puzzle

According to F.L.W. Ratnieks and N.L. Carreck (Clarity on Honey bee collapse? 8 January 2010, p.152)

(1)  the consensus seems to be that pests and pathogens are the single most important cause of bee colony losses. Actually, many other scientists are concerned about the inappropriate or even misuse of insecticides. So, not only the beekeepers are seriously affected by bee colony losses, but also farmers, seed companies and pesticide producers. The fact that they state the main cause of bee losses are diseases may give the false impression that insecticides can be sprayed without the attention that is needed. For example, Integrated Pest Management strategies rely on pest monitoring, and these IPM principles are being neglected in the case of sowing of seed coated with neonicotinoid imidacloprid for a simple reason: the insecticide has been applied even if the pest infestation is not present. According to  (2) cited by (1) imidacloprid seems unlikely to be responsible for the French bee deaths. This appears to be a biased opinion and a conflict of interest in light of the fact that the author of (2) is a researcher employed by the producer of imidacloprid. The authors of the perspective (1) have neglected to cite other articles published in the same issue, which demonstrate the sub-lethal effects of imidacloprid on bees (3) Why were these results ignored ? More recent articles have also confirmed the neonicotinoid side effects on bees (4). Regulatory guidelines in both the USA and in Europe aim at protecting bees by limiting the use of insecticides harmful to pollinating insects. Farmers and beekeepers should work together to find solutions which result in effective pest control while protecting bee health. Needless to say, healthy bees are less susceptible to diseases (5) and vice versa.

References:
(1)  F.L.W. Ratnieks, N.L. Carreck, Science 327, (2010)
(2)  C. Maus et al., Bull. Insectology 56, 51 (2003)
(3)   P. Medrzycki et al., Bull. Insectology, 56, 59 (2003)
(4)  E.C. Yang et al., J. Econ. Entomology. 101, 1743 (2008)
(5)  C. Alaux et al., Environ. Microbiology. doi :10.1111/j.1462-2920.2009.02123.x

----------


## Stromnessbees

> You go first on biobees!


Why should I apologise for this one? 
- The term 'fishy' goes very well with the quote relating to otters, don't you think?

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11737

----------


## AlexJ

I had at one time hoped to add my tuppence worth to topical bee related debate as I struggled through the early years of beekeeping but will have to admit defeat.  In truth none of the regular contributors on this thread are acting with any great objectivity.   Those involved have dug trenches and retreated to the rehashing of personal points of view without recourse to truly debating the 'facts' - which are normally wrapped in sarcasm at best.  While Doris' use of shill was inappropriate I recollect an apology - but nonetheless it's time for all to get over it.  Equally, patronising Doris and declaring her personal relationship to John on the forum was inappropriate.  I'd rather a point of view was undermined by solid, sarcasm free, debate than this tortured path of innuendo and mud slinging.  Like many others, I'll continue to use the wealth of information and experience held on get site without the need to post, or consider posting.

Time to get back to talking about beekeeping and park neonicotinoids in the too hard to talk about box until you can all agree how to interact with each other in a civilised manner.

----------


## Jimbo

Well said Alex J I agree totally

----------


## gavin

So how do we get back to sensible, rational debate?  We have been able to have that debate in the past, but not while we have the occasional individual posting who has an opinion that cannot be questioned.

On the relationship between John and Doris, I was not bringing this out to score points or make anyone uncomfortable.  They have been open about it on here in the past and I didn't think (still don't) that they would see this reminder as unkind in any way.  That, and the links back to places showing the start of Doris' campaign against this forum, were deliberately brought into this thread by me for one reason.  New people are being brought here by criticism of the forum elsewhere.  People are seeing some of this and not understanding the full picture.  I made a judgement that it was very important that no-one came here and went away with a partial understanding of the situation.  I tried to make those reasons clear, and didn't feel that I could be more explicit than that.

As for the too hard to talk about box, this is it.  The discussion was threatening the rest of the forum (to be frank, one person was trying to spread it across the rest of the forum).  We tidied up, putting all this stuff here so that people can read it or ignore it as they wish.  There should be a yellow flashing light over this area: Watch out! This area gets heated.  But there isn't, my skills don't go that far.  Feel free to use the rest of the forum to discuss beekeeping.  Many people are.  I regard that as a sign that the policy of isolating this kind of stuff here was right.

As for sarcasm, I'm not going to say that there is none on this forum because I'm sure that folk could point to the odd post here and there.  But, once again, the humour that this forum brings is one of the things that makes it a great success, in my view.  There will always be a small proportion of people who don't appreciate that or see one person's humour as sarcasm, but I can't legislate for that and it shouldn't stop people continuing to try to keep things light.

----------


## Neils

I'll put forward the extreme, "Be careful what you wish for" suggestion then because I want a return of the forum where we discussed beekeeping and engaged in some friendly chatter. Something like Beekeeping Forum has the volume of traffic that a couple of people pushing an agenda cannot dominate the site, here doesn't currently have that luxury. 

1) We make "over the edge" and opt in section of the site. You can see it exists but you cannot enter it unless you apply to do so.
Moderators/admins will only participate in that section as moderators.
Moderation will be less strict than on the rest of the site.
If you want to tub thump or score cheap points against people knock yourself out
Enter at your own risk. Usual caveats about libellous posting etc apply
[parts of]Threads de-generating into petty arguments get dumped into Over the Edge.

2) The rest of the site becomes more strictly moderated.

3) As people want to "Lawyer" the current [lack of] rules, we make them more strict, more formal, less open to interpretation and vigorously applied across the entire forum.

4) Moderation tools that we do not currently employ on this site are activated (the infraction system). Sufficient infractions result in a temporary "cooling off" loss of posting privileges where moderators believe "discussion" is getting out of hand.

5) The admin team become less reluctant to remove members or close/edit threads that reflect badly on the forum or wider association. There are other avenues available where that discussion can be persued, here would no longer be one of them.

That's not a forum I particularly want to be a member nor a moderator of, but the current atmosphere on the forum and in particular this part of it is, frankly, depressing.  There also seem to be attempts to "game" the current set up to achieve who knows what but a lot of people have worked hard over the last two years to establish this forum and it is a shame to see that work being unravelled. 

I am now at a point where there are threads on this forum, some of which I started, which I feel I can no longer participate in because other members have decided to sidetrack them down a particular path. I'll admit that I've bitten in the past and fed the trolls and for that I apologise, I know now that anything I say in any capacity will, where possible, be used against me and the forum both on here and elsewhere so it is simply safer not to engage, lest it becomes ammunition to question the integrity of this forum (or me for that matter) further on down the line.

In the meantime I know that means I've "revealed my hand" and that some may try to use it to their perceived advantage, so for now it is probably for the best if I refrain from posting as a general member of the forum until this is resolved.

----------


## Bridget

To put it simply - if everyone could restrain from having to add their tuppence worth there would be no heated debates or unpleasantness.  And if i could stop myself having a peak at this thread i wouldnt be at all bothered by temper of the debate.  But some love debate and others love trouble. 
So I guess those of us who feel uncomfortable about this unending bickering and points scoring should just use the off  switch.

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## madasafish

I've just caught up on this thread. I rarely bother anymore with this forum as it has clearly deteriorated since I joined it  (some coincidence perhaps? :-).

I find the continued debate about the impact of pesticides counter productive as  the target of the debate appears to be other beekeepers.

Successful campaigns on issues such as apartheid focussed on winning public support and working against key organisations which were influential in the support of apartheid  eg Barclays Bank, sports etc.

As far as I see on this and other forums , the anti  brigade do their best to annoy and denigrate anyone who disagrees with them thus losing much potential support from the uncomiitted. And losing any chance of influencing Beekeeping Associations by being disruptive  - and eventually being thrown off forums.

As far as engaging with key organisations - BBKA, NFU etc.. zero attempt at all and downright vilification of individuals by some.

It's not the way to engage people or get a successful result .. In fact taking an objective view point, the results of the protestors' actions suggest they are far more likely employed by Bayer to ensure opposition to neonicotinoids is doomed to failure.

Edit:
I emphasise I don't believe they are employed by Bayer. BUT they run their opposition so poorly and with such counter productive strategies  (if they have any), that they  might as well be.

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## Calum

So Madasafish if I got you straight, you mean Doris is an expert 'shill' in the employ of Bayer? Its all adding up. She's from Germany too you know...

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## Johnthefarmer

> So Madasafish if I got you straight, you mean Doris is an expert 'shill' in the employ of Bayer? Its all adding up. She's from Germany too you know...


My partner, Doris, is a force of nature who feels her role is to save the world against the forces of evil. Surely a noble sentiment. The question is :is she right in this case-that neonics are so bad they should be banned?
I have read the personal testimonies of forum beekeepers stating that they get on perfectlly well with neonic-treated OSR. I accept these as being genuine experiences.The question they put is- what is the alternative?
My position is, and I repeat myself, that annual, systemic,broad-spectrum, residual pesticides are a bad idea. This sytem does seem convenient to farmers, and is certainly very lucrative for the manufacturers. A better system is the use of non-residual treatments, as and when they are required ,for acute infestations. This does require that farmers actually check their crops and have the knowledge to react accordingly.
 My prefered option is to sometimes accept sub-optimal yields, plant home-saved acclimatised seed, sow more than one variety in each field to reduce risks,and have a strategic rotation between fields to maintain fertility.
  As for people being offended by the type of debate in this section of the sbai--What do they expect? It's where the real world hits the apiary.

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## Trog

Saving the world against the forces of evil is perhaps a noble sentiment, but a bit extreme when we're talking about  chemical companies that also produce life-saving chemicals.  Getting all heated about one tiny thing, and taking  it out on a very small number of beekeepers who, for the most part, do their bit for the planet, is a waste of everyone's time, in my personal opinion.  Still, if some folk want to believe that scientists and chemical companies are evil, that's fine by me, just as long as they stick to their principles when life-saving drugs are required.  :Smile:

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## chris

> , , plant home-saved acclimatised seed, .


Just out of interest John, is this still allowed in the UK?

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## Jon

> Just out of interest John, is this still allowed in the UK?


I do it all the time.
I save seed from as many plants as I can to sow the following year on my allotment.
It is certainly not illegal.

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## Johnthefarmer

I'm fairly sure that it's illegal to to sell homegrown seed without paying some sort of royalties (funny term that).To be honest I don't know if it's in anyway illegal to sow your own homegrown seed.

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## Johnthefarmer

[QUOTE=Trog;12

 Getting all heated about one tiny thing, 


If it was one tiny thing I wouldn't be so bothered. 
I understand milllions of acres are neoniced annually.

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## Jon

I don't know about selling seed but on a small scale like an allotment group seed gets shared all the time.
I always have enough parsnip seed to sow about half an acre so I divvy it up amount the other allotment holders.
You get an incredible amount of seed from half a dozen plants left to run to seed.
On a wordwide basis sharecropping is a very common form of agriculture.
Poor people who have no land enter into a partnership agreement with better off farmers who own land.
The farmer prepares the land for the crop and the sharecropper provides the seed, plants it, and does most of the crop maintainance.
the landowner might help again with the harvest and sale of the crop. Profits are split whatever way has been agreed.
I have been involved in schemes like this myself at the project where I work in Mexico where we provided seed and sowed a couple of acres of (heritage variety non seed treated ) maize on land owned by a local farmer.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> I don't know about selling seed but on a small scale like an allotment group seed gets shared all the time.
> I always have enough parsnip seed to sow about half an acre so I divvy it up amount the other allotment holders.
> You get an incredible amount of seed from half a dozen plants left to run to seed.
> On a wordwide basis sharecropping is a very common form of agriculture.
> Poor people who have no land enter into a partnership agreement with better off farmers who own land.
> The farmer prepares the land for the crop and the sharecropper provides the seed, plants it, and does most of the crop maintainance.
> the landowner might help again with the harvest and sale of the crop. Profits are split whatever way has been agreed.
> I have been involved in schemes like this myself at the project where I work in Mexico where we provided seed and sowed a couple of acres of (heritage variety non seed treated ) maize on land owned by a local farmer.


Jon, In all you posts( sorry not all) there is a disjunction between what you do on your own allotment, for your own consumption, and what you accept as inevitable for everybody else. Why does the non-landowning population have to accept rubbish treatment.I know they are way the majority, that the rural/urban ratio has become imbalanced. Us food producers have to be responsible in our attitude towards our our dependents.

----------


## Trog

[QUOTE=Johnthefarmer;12553][QUOTE=Trog;12

 Getting all heated about one tiny thing, 


If it was one tiny thing I wouldn't be so bothered. 
I understand milllions of acres are neoniced annually.[/QUOTE]

John/Doris.  Read the news from Syria or anywhere else where not getting blown to bits or shot or driven from one's home is the main priority, then tell me the neonics debate isn't tiny.  Perhaps your considerable talents as 'forces of nature' could be put to better use alleviating the results of real, rather than imagined, evil.  I, for one, have become as fed-up with the neonics debate as I was in the days when the GM debate monopolised the SBA magazine for months.

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## Jon

Hi John
There is a huge difference between doing things on a very small scale like I do, small scale like you do, and on the other hand, agribusiness involving thousands or tens of thousands of acres.
The most obvious way to help bees and other pollinators and local wildlife is to create habitat and forage among the monoculture via hedgerows, specially planted strips of forage plants and stuff like that.

I don't accept that stuff is inevitable and I very strongly argue that some products on the market are much more dangerous than others.
I think it is critical to avoid the trap of a them and us situation with regard to forms of agriculture.

I have learned over the last 20 years of work in Mexico that the only way to convince a food producer that organic or chemical free is better than conventional  is to set up a system which shows that it can be done. I spent many years plugging away at that and I can tell you it is not easy in sub tropical agriculture. The reproduction rate of pests and parasites is incredible. I have visited projects all over the place in Mexico and I have yet to see an effective organic system which goes beyond a few square metres.
People here who live off the organic system and associated philosophy do so by giving courses and charging for them or charging for 'consultancy'
I have seen this happen a bit in the UK as well.
You get gurus telling others how to do it without demonstrating that they can do it themselves.
This is most apparent in the 'natural' beekeeping movement where the majority including guys like Phil Chandler keep losing their bees due to poor or non existent varroa control yet keep urging others to follow the mantra in the face of poor results.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

Jon, In all you posts( sorry not all) there is a disjunction between what you do on your own allotment, for your own consumption, and what you accept as inevitable for everybody else. Why does the non-landowning population have to accept rubbish treatment.I know they are way the majority, that the rural/urban ratio has become imbalanced. Us food producers have to be responsible in our attitude towards our our dependents.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Hi John
> There is a huge difference between doing things on a very small scale like I do, small scale like you do, and on the other hand, agribusiness involving thousands or tens of thousands of acres.
> The most obvious way to help bees and other pollinators and local wildlife is to create habitat and forage among the monoculture via hedgerows, specially planted strips of forage plants and stuff like that.
> 
> I don't accept that stuff is inevitable and I very strongly argue that some products on the market are much more dangerous than others.
> I think it is critical to avoid the trap of a them and us situation with regard to forms of agriculture.
> 
> I have learned over the last 20 years of work in Mexico that the only way to convince a food producer that organic or chemical free is better than conventional  is to set up a system which shows that it can be done. I spent many years plugging away at that and I can tell you it is not easy in sub tropical agriculture. The reproduction rate of pests and parasites is incredible. I have visited projects all over the place in Mexico and I have yet to see an effective organic system which goes beyond a few square metres.
> People here who live off the organic system and associated philosophy do so by giving courses and charging for them or charging for 'consultancy'
> ...


I accept your stance and will think about it before my next reply!

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Hi John
> There is a huge difference between doing things on a very small scale like I do, small scale like you do, and on the other hand, agribusiness involving thousands or tens of thousands of acres.
> The most obvious way to help bees and other pollinators and local wildlife is to create habitat and forage among the monoculture via hedgerows, specially planted strips of forage plants and stuff like that.
> 
> I don't accept that stuff is inevitable and I very strongly argue that some products on the market are much more dangerous than others.
> I think it is critical to avoid the trap of a them and us situation with regard to forms of agriculture.
> 
> I have learned over the last 20 years of work in Mexico that the only way to convince a food producer that organic or chemical free is better than conventional  is to set up a system which shows that it can be done. I spent many years plugging away at that and I can tell you it is not easy in sub tropical agriculture. The reproduction rate of pests and parasites is incredible. I have visited projects all over the place in Mexico and I have yet to see an effective organic system which goes beyond a few square metres.
> People here who live off the organic system and associated philosophy do so by giving courses and charging for them or charging for 'consultancy'
> ...


You seem to be telling me that it's almost impossible to farm in a highly fertile environment without resorting to fertilisers and biocides produced by 'the big companies'. Have the Mexicans forgotten everything?
  Surely you see that that can't be right?
I have heard that many areas of Mexico are suffering a prolonged drought, but I don't think that necessarily alters my  case.

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## Jon

I am only reporting what I see.
They have certainly forgotten everything that the Aztecs knew about agriculture as the Aztecs had a sophisticated system involving crops on artificial floating islands. Small scale compared to modern agriculture.
One of the main theories for the demise of the Mayan Indians is that they cleared too much forest for agriculture and induced climate change so maybe they were not so smart either.
The problem with agriculture today is that we are where we are rather than starting from some well balanced utopia.
If you sow crops without protecting them they just get over run with pests and plagues.
Been there, done that.
No drought here. Much wetter than the UK during the rainy season.
The main issue is that it is totally different working small scale to large scale.
I could probably run a couple of acres but I have yet to see someone run things successfully on a larger scale.
I believe there are successful organic systems working in Cuba but I have not had a chance to visit any of them.
Strangely enough it is cheaper to fly to Cuba from the UK than it is from Mexico.

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## Johnthefarmer

Tempted to take an October break in Cuba.

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## Jon

Wait another month until the hurricane season has ended.

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## madasafish

> Hi John
> ----
> You get gurus telling others how to do it without demonstrating that they can do it themselves.
> This is most apparent in the 'natural' beekeeping movement where the majority including guys like Phil Chandler keep losing their bees due to poor or non existent varroa control yet keep urging others to follow the mantra in the face of poor results.


As a TBH keeper, I agree 100% with Jon on this issue.. There are a lot of TBH newbies doomed to disappointment and failure as the methods advised are unrealistic for the climate outside a warm southern UK and pest control  in your first years as a beekeeper is essential - there are enough things extra to go wrong without adding a major one like varroa. Fortunately to someone who trained at a BBKA apiary, the shortfalls were  obvious.


Anyone who loses all their bees through disease is a poor beekeeper.

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## Jon

> Anyone who loses all their bees through disease is a poor beekeeper.


Amen to that and control of varroa mite is not rocket science if you are careful about the timing of the treatment.
If anything, nosema is harder to detect and harder to control although I have had very good results after adding some thymol to the winter feed as in Pete Little's recipe. Will do the same this winter when feeding.
The Youcel paper which looked at colonies over 3 winters found that this was a more effective control of nosema than fumidil.
If you keep these two maladies in check, your bees will more than likely thrive.

----------


## madasafish

> Amen to that and control of varroa mite is not rocket science if you are careful about the timing of the treatment.
> If anything, nosema is harder to detect and harder to control although I have had very good results after adding some thymol to the winter feed as in Pete Little's recipe. Will do the same this winter when feeding.
> The Youcel paper which looked at colonies over 3 winters found that this was a more effective control of nosema than fumidil.
> If you keep these two maladies in check, your bees will more than likely thrive.


Yes : I used Thymol in feed last year and no nosema this year..  Seems like the BBKA are unaware of this with the fuss they kicked up about fumidil.

But as they are 50 years behind the times anyway... (I speak as a member)

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## Neils

THis is the same organisation that wants to spend my hard earned money studying whether the north of england can use pyrethoids for varroa again mind you.

Went down today to pick up the remains of a colony that was all but dead from Nosema like symptoms. When I went down last I had some thymol laced syrup to get them through the rain and found a handful of bees with the queen and not much else. Gave them the syrup anyway and pretty much left them to it.  Finally went back today to pick up the hive and feeder and get it cleaned up and found.... 5 frames of brood, the same queen.  My Flabber is Gasted.  There was literally a fist full of bees in a 14x12 when I left them, you could have comfortably put them in an apidea. I've not touched them since april and yet they're alive. Granted they had all the syrup they could want to get them through the rain, but they'd had it, I only left the hive open and in place because I didn't want to tell the owners of the land that "their" bees had died.

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## Jon

> But as they are 50 years behind the times anyway... (I speak as a member)


Never had the pleasure as I am a member of the UBKA which affiliates to the Irish beekeeper association, FIBKA, although I did get a secret handshake pass so that I can post on the bbka website for what it's worth.

Nellie that is an amazing turnaround. I wonder could it have picked up a queenless cast or something as it is hard to imagine an apidea's worth of bees reproducing so quickly even with a good tail wind. happy ending anyway.

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## Neils

Beats me. As much as you can deduce anything looking at the workers they're the daughters of the queen and nobody marks a queen as badly as I do so she is absolutely the same one I saw in April.  They're of carnolian descent so they do just turn resource into brood and I wonder how much that's played a part. They're a strong Nuc at the moment having not been touched since april when I could literally have scooped them out in one hand and dumped them in an apidea. They had a lot of syrup because I assumed they were going to be a strong colony, I was just so dejected I dumped the syrup on and left and I've not looked at them for near 3 months. A colony that small and probably with nosema won't survive so I didn't bother to look at them.

There are lots of things I think I should have done, perhaps leaving them alone to just get on with it was, actually, the best course of action.

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## chris

> There are a lot of TBH newbies doomed to disappointment and failure as the methods advised are unrealistic for the climate outside a warm southern UK 
> .


Do you include the Warré hive in the thh's? If so I'd be interested in your elaboration of this statement before I plunge too deeply. Funny that: MAAF is the name of my insurance company.

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## madasafish

> Do you include the Warré hive in the thh's? If so I'd be interested in your elaboration of this statement before I plunge too deeply. Funny that: MAAF is the name of my insurance company.



Yes.

Many newbies are full of doe eyed enthusiasm to be green, go on a 1 day course and set about  keeping bees with a TBH or warre and determined to let the bees live "naturally".

They know nothing really of bee keeping, nothing of pest control - and don't believe in it in many cases  - and nothing about swarming, or winterising hives.



TBHs will winter very well even in bad climates but you need to winterise #  them and prevent wasp attacks in autumn etc. Varroa builds up over a 1-3 year period and can decimate any hive : I saw a double brood box very vigorous hive collapse at our  Association apiary in 3 months due to varroa (treated and survived).

And nosema can as well. There are lots of very effective  (and cheap) diy remedies mainly using thymol  -or purchased ones  - which are very effective. But many of these newbies hope to live with natural bees and disease resistant ones.

Sorry but the world is not like that.

Starting beekeeping with no knowledge and a decision to go against current wisdom is fine : if you are lucky or have an experienced mentor.

Most have neither.

If you want to have a taste of it, read some of the threads on natural bee keeping forum.

I keep TBHs as they are cheap require less equipment and are easy to handle. Anyone who thinks they are hands off will eventually suffer an entire hive loss. Still if you have plenty of money, or lots of swarms around that may not matter but it's hardly "saving the bees".

I learned at a BBKA apiary (N Staffs) which made my first hive easy. Despite that, my first two years were: interesting .

# closed bottoms.

Edit: I have 2 x warres (self made from pallets. ). They don't work well in my garden - maybe it's the altitude 250 metres and the cold and the wet.. I  will bin them next year if they continue to not work well.. - refusal to enter another box.

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## Bridget

> Yes.
> 
> Many newbies are full of doe eyed enthusiasm to be green, go on a 1 day course and set about  keeping bees with a TBH or warre and determined to let the bees live "naturally".
> 
> They know nothing really of bee keeping, nothing of pest control - and don't believe in it in many cases  - and nothing about swarming, or winterising hives.
> .


Bla bla bla
As a newbie I have met rheumy eyed good old boys, kept bees for 40 yrs and believe that if a colony is not strong enough to survive, they don't deserve to survive.  Survival of the fittest etc etc.  and they have lost nearly every colony in recent years because they don't believe in treating disease. 
I believe that very many of the newbies are committed to the bees, to increase the colonies in the UK.  To learn how to raise a healthy bee colony.  And it is very unhelpful to brand all newbies as ignorant.

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## Jon

> And it is very unhelpful to brand all newbies as ignorant.


To be fair, I don't think that is what he was saying, and there are definitely newbies who have been sold the guff from Phil Chandler and his ilk re non treatment and as they don't know any better they lose their bees to varroa.
It is all Unicorns and rainbows and the bees are chilled out automatically in a top bar.
I agree, some of the worst beekeepers I know are the 40 year + brigade.
Reluctant to change in the face of new threats, terrible handlers, obstructive of those who want to move things forward in the local association etc.

There you go, I think we have managed to offend everyone now!

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## Calum

I'm not offended yet. Try harder!

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## chris

> There are a lot of TBH newbies doomed to disappointment and failure as the methods advised are unrealistic for the climate outside a warm southern UK


I was obviously not clear in my question. What interested me was not the newbies- there are beekeepers of all ages and levels of experience, using all sorts of hives in many different climates and following various practices (good luck to all of them, they're all half crazy anyway to be doing it). What interested me was the part about a Warré being unrealistic outside of a warm southern UK climate.




> TBHs will winter very well even in bad climates but you need to winterise # them


Thanks for answering.I think this can be applied to all hives. The altitude of your garden shouldn't be a problem. Marc Gatineau who lives along the next valley from me, and is at an altitude of 900m. ran 300 Warrés for over 30years.

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## gavin

We've gone in this thread from discussing the nuttier end of beekeeping campaigning blogs to full-on beekeeping in boxes without side and bottom bars to the frames.  OK if we ship this bit to the 'Alternative' section?  Do feel free to continue here meantime.

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## gavin

> I'm not offended yet. Try harder!


Me neither*.  Just want to point out that there is something weird about this section.  It makes normally very polite people come out with all sorts of harsh statements for some inexplicable reason.  It does to me on a regular basis!

* Memory loss there - I should say that nothing in the thread has offended me for several days.

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## Neils

I thought's Madasafish's points were perfectly clear to be honest.

Unless it's me that's misunderstood it you've got got a lot of willing new beekeepers being sold the line that Top Bar and Warre hives are these magical contraptions that allow bees to live free and the rest of us are a load of chemical using, moustache twirling baddies that are the root cause of the problems for bees and steal all their honey to boot.  This is exactly what a lot of these guys want to hear and they have neither the knowledge or experience to spot that they're being sold a load of old crap.

That was the not a million miles away from my entry into beekeeping, but fortunately I worked out it was a load of crap before I got any bees, many of them (bees or new beekeepers) aren't so lucky when they're entering via this route.

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## chris

Yeah, I agree Nellie. I was just interested in the wintering part, but obviously only half read the sentence.
Back in the '70's when getting back to the land was the in thing, and most were buying smallholdings in Wales, I had a friend who set up a specialized business selling Welsh smallholdings. He put one ad. a week in Exchange and Mart. Someone bought, tried to make a living by self sufficiency, went bust, and sold. So my mate was selling the same places over and over again every 2 years. He made a fortune.It's the same now with the TBH ers and their Gurus who run classes for them. BUT people have dreams. Let them live them- if they don't fall in one trap they'll fall in another.I'm not sure it's naïve-I just think some people need that.
edit: there is a name for them in France: bobos  (bourgeois bohemiens)
I call them urban ecologists.

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## Neils

I'll leave Madasafish to elborate on wintering with those hives.

But I agree on the general point, a few of the older guys have made the allusion to "The Good Life" phenomena of the 70's to the current climate of beekeeping.

In some respects whatever you tell people there will be those who'll want to give it a go anyway and I don't really have a problem with that. Across the entire spectrum of beekeeping there are people all too happy to take cash off willing [prospective] new beekeepers while it's in fashion and those are the people I do have a problem with, whether it's peddling an ethos that beekeeping is easy or if we just stuck them in a/this type of box and leave them alone they'll be fine or if you use this hive you'll be taking pots of honey to your dinner parties in no time or the guys all to happy to sell a box of problems described as a Nuc.

And you'll certainly get no argument from me about dealing with the 40+ year experience beekeepers and not just about immediate beekeeping matters either.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... bobos  (bourgeois bohemiens)


I'm learning some good new words on this forum.  'Bobos' from Chris, and Nellie's 'bee bimble' of earlier (but I knew what a shill was).
Kitta

----------


## lindsay s

> I agree, some of the worst beekeepers I know are the 40 year + brigade.
> Reluctant to change in the face of new threats, terrible handlers, obstructive of those who want to move things forward in the local association etc.


OH NO! I have been rumbled by Jon (30 years + by they way) 

[QUOTE]edit: there is a name for them in France: bobos (bourgeois bohemiens)
I call them urban ecologists.[QUOTE]

Up here we call them Good Lifers and none of them look like Felicty Kendal 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/people/f...son_page.shtml

----------


## Jon

Only kidding. My father has been keeping bees 50+ years so I had better not fall out with him.

Anyway, you did right to start this thread as the best way to deal with crazy claims in blogs like this is to highlight the nonsense for all to see.

Varroa mite infestation as a symptom of neonicotinoid poisoning will be hard to top.

----------


## onj

I started 5 years ago and still very much consider myself a novice. At our local association beginner's course it was drummed into us " if you want to keep your bees alive you must treat for varroa ". I find myself constantly apologizing to my bees for my clumsiness, but I am getting there. Never lost any yet apart from a late nuc and my first hive was lost to vandals. I lose the odd swarm, but always get a reasonable amount of honey ( although this year it could be thin on the ground) and I firmly believe that is because I treat for varroa twice a year, which is strengthened reading comments on this forum. Our local commercial guy George Hood (deceased) said he never saw any mites but he always treated for them.

----------


## Jon

Anyone seeing phoretic mites running on the bees probably has a very serious mite infestation.
I only ever see the odd one on the bottom board and sometimes I don't see a mite for a couple of months.
Same as yourself, I treat twice a year, Apiguard before the end of August and Oxalic late December.
A colony with no sign of mites can easily drop 500-1000 when treatment is started.
I think the Oxalic is important as it gets rid of 90% of the mite population which has built up between September and December after the Thymol treatment has finished.
If the Oxalic is effective the colony build up in March starts with maybe a couple of dozen mites.

----------


## Calum

> Amen to that and control of varroa mite is not rocket science if you are careful about the timing of the treatment.
> If anything, nosema is harder to detect and harder to control although I have had very good results after adding some thymol to the winter feed as in Pete Little's recipe. Will do the same this winter when feeding.
> The Youcel paper which looked at colonies over 3 winters found that this was a more effective control of nosema than fumidil.
> If you keep these two maladies in check, your bees will more than likely thrive.


Hi,
was really interested in using Thymol as an additive for my winter feed. Asked our local state bee health specialist. He informed me it is illegal in Germany to add Thymol to feed, as the bees can and will move the feed with it in it up into the supers to make more room for brood in the spring, contaminating the honey crop. 
Such big differences between Germany and the UK. Oh btw beware of selling honey abroad - Germany at least has juicy fines for contaminated honey (including costs of disposal wich are 5-7000 € / 100kg) which if your honey was mixed with others can add up to a fair old bill....  :Frown:

----------


## onj

Has anyone used Api-life var. I have used apistan in the past but Edinburgh bka reported   a 70% resistance to it in the Lothians so that is out for me this year.

----------


## Jon

> Hi,
> was really interested in using Thymol as an additive for my winter feed. Asked our local state bee health specialist. He informed me it is illegal in Germany to add Thymol to feed, as the bees can and will move the feed with it in it up into the supers to make more room for brood in the spring, contaminating the honey crop. (


Hi Calum. That's not a big problem. I remove all frames of stores from the brood box at the end or march or start of april, at any rate well before supers go on. I use these frames for feeding nucs.

----------


## Neils

> Has anyone used Api-life var. I have used apistan in the past but Edinburgh bka reported   a 70% resistance to it in the Lothians so that is out for me this year.


I've not used api-life var, I tend to use either apiguard or a published "home brew" of thymol crystals and surgical spirit soaked into ordinary pieces of kitchen sponge. Both have worked well for me and I believe that apiguard just works out cheaper per hive than api life var, but it comes in packs of 10 (5 treatments) which might be excessive if you only have 1-2 hives.

----------


## madasafish

> I've not used api-life var, I tend to use either apiguard or a published "home brew" of thymol crystals and surgical spirit soaked into ordinary pieces of kitchen sponge. Both have worked well for me and I believe that apiguard just works out cheaper per hive than api life var, but it comes in packs of 10 (5 treatments) which might be excessive if you only have 1-2 hives.


Some sellers do sell Apiguard in 1s and 2s..

Like you I make my own via a published remedy: cheaper and just as effective.

----------


## gavin

I have used simple thymol crystals as described by Peter Edwards but these days I'm more likely to use Apiguard gel.  Bare naked crystals seem to work as well as the various concoctions, and there is no risk of the bees chewing the honey jar lid into pieces to incorporate into their propolis:

http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.org.u...aTreatment.htm

Unlike Peter I don't rely on thymol but use oxalic (75g/1000g sugar/1000ml water) dribble in midwinter and only turn to thymol if there is a summer problem.  You do need to be careful not to taint any subsequent honey crops (and best not sell to Germany of course).

----------


## Rosie

I use thymol toothpaste (for my teeth, that is) and have often wondered if the thymol content was strong enough to affect varroa.  The fact that I'm still alive suggests to me that it is harmless to humans.  My wife also cooks with with thyme and her cooking hasn't killed me yet either.  Perhaps it's one of those slow acting things that will cause me to forget my way home.

Steve

----------


## gavin

So - you are happy with 2-isopropyl-5-methylphenol?  Sounds like a scary chemical to me!




> I use thymol toothpaste (for my teeth, that is) and have often wondered if the thymol content was strong enough to affect varroa.


Thankfully, I don't have a problem with Varroa in my oral or any other cavity.

G.

Did that post need a winking smiley do you think?!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Has anyone used Api-life var. I have used apistan in the past but Edinburgh bka reported   a 70% resistance to it in the Lothians so that is out for me this year.


Hi onj
I have tested most of these varroa treatments myself and Api life var is pretty good and has the advantage that you don't need an eke to make room for it.
You need a solid floor though not a mesh one
I have quite a few hives myself so use 500grms of thymol dissolved in 1 ltr of surgical spirit. Two sponge squares at the upper rear of the broodbox 20ml of solution on each sponge. 2 weeks later put another 20ml on each sponge.
If I had 2 hives I would use api life var though

----------


## Jimbo

Last year I used thymol in meths on sponges in some hives and just 8g straight thymol crystals on a honey jar lids in others. Both worked well although some hives reacted to the treatment. Some were OK, some poured bees out the front door but when back in and some pulled out larvae and dumped them which was a bit alarming but they soon went back to normal and produced more larvae. The mite drop was small which was not what I expected. I later treated with Oxalic acid later in the year and still got a small mite drop. Last year there was discussion on the forum about small mite numbers so I was not the only person with small mite infestations

----------


## Neils

Jimbo, I think the last couple of years, for me at least, have illustrated that varroa IPM is not something that is set in stone.  It isn't as simple as 1 2 3, and some years the mite levels will be worse than others and it will vary from colony to colony too.

I suspect based on nothing concrete right now that we'll see low mite drops this year. I wonder if what the winter losses will be because the weathers really thrown people off gauging what the bees are storing in terms of food.

I hope that makes sense, I'm still sampling the local wares in Edinburgh.

----------


## Calum

> I use thymol toothpaste (for my teeth, that is) and have often wondered if the thymol content was strong enough to affect varroa.  The fact that I'm still alive suggests to me that it is harmless to humans.  My wife also cooks with with thyme and her cooking hasn't killed me yet either.  Perhaps it's one of those slow acting things that will cause me to forget my way home.
> 
> Steve


Hi,
well they are very exact here about honey. By law you are not allowed to add or take away anything from honey. To prevent honey being 'punched'. I can appreciate without such laws there would be a motivation to stretch the honey crops by feeding in parallel to increase the saleable quantity. Contamination through medicines for varroa, pesticides and antibiotics (fire blight treatments) are also deviations from what my customers understand as a natural product.

It is often discussed whether the heating that honey producers do to make honey eternally runny is a breach of the spirit of the law as they kill off all the enzymes in the honey which are also an integral part of its goodness (in end effect runny honey is a flavored sugar solution you could say).. 

In the interests of preserving the public’s appreciation of this product (and willingness to pay a top price for it) it is important that they can implicitly trust in exceptional quality and purity. I kind of like that idea, I'm proud to produce a unique natural product of the highest quality and appreciate the trust of my customers - they and their families eat what my bees produce and I process- so it’s up to me and every other beekeeper to maintain the image of our product and maintain our customers trust.

----------


## chris

Calum, I agree with what you say, in theory anyway. I never heat my honey either, but my mix contains a good proportion of lime (most years) and yours you have said is *wood honey*. So no need to heat.There's a good dose of honeydew in it. Surely you wouldn't expect someone whose bees work the clover or other fast setting honeys to not heat?
Also if you really want the best for your customers why do you spin extract ?Apart from convenience.

----------


## Calum

Hi Chris
yes my dandelion/ apple blossom I have to heat. 30°C 24 hours is enough to get it moving, low loss of enzymes and hydroxthingy buildup at that temperature. 
the runny honey you get in asda has been pasturised, a big difference.
whats wrong with spin extraction (as long as its not a humid day?).

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> We've gone in this thread from discussing the nuttier end of beekeeping campaigning blogs to full-on beekeeping in boxes without side and bottom bars to the frames.  OK if we ship this bit to the 'Alternative' section?  Do feel free to continue here meantime.


Yes, perhaps you should free up this space for discussion on neonics, or at least on 'Beekeeping and the environment'.
 It is, afterall, quite an important aspect that has been sidetracked.
There is a school of thought which holds that the admin of a forum should maintain a certain distance from judgement of the content.
  So far ,Gavin, you have, and continue to, rubbish what are well presented arguments against the position you repeatedly espouse :that neonics are the best available product, that their escalating use worldwide is relatively innocuous, and that any alternative would be far worse.
  Please allow Scottish beekeepers to entertain thoughts outside of this mainstream, global-capitalistic mindset.
   On another tack, I wonder if the Archers will end up with a mega-dairy or a Polish-inspired mixed farm outcome?

----------


## madasafish

Anyone who complains that the thread has drifted off topic and then says _"mainstream, global-capitalistic mindset._" is having a laugh :-)

----------


## Johnthefarmer

In Spain 20+% of the population is unemployed (officially). Similar figures from elsewhere. The idea that we have to continually replace workers on farms with systems and products requiring fewer and fewer staff, especially as the work can be fullfilling and the outcomes better, is rubbish.
  The job of working the land and producing our food is central,fundamental to any society. Why are we content to leave it all in the control of irresponsible multinationals to carve up our 
most productive agricultural areas, with the only motive being shareholder profits?
   No doubt I can be accused of naivete, communism, hippiedom or whatever, but really, the idea that,say, in Spain, youths are hanging around idle watching big tractors spraying massive areas of monocrops, when intensive mixed farming smallholdings would produce more,better food is at least frustrating.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Anyone who complains that the thread has drifted off topic and then says _"mainstream, global-capitalistic mindset._" is having a laugh :-)


I stand by that clumsy phrase!

----------


## madasafish

> In Spain 20+% of the population is unemployed (officially). Similar figures from elsewhere. The idea that we have to continually replace workers on farms with systems and products requiring fewer and fewer staff, especially as the work can be fullfilling and the outcomes better, is rubbish.
>   The job of working the land and producing our food is central,fundamental to any society. Why are we content to leave it all in the control of irresponsible multinationals to carve up our 
> most productive agricultural areas, with the only motive being shareholder profits?
>    No doubt I can be accused of naivete, communism, hippiedom or whatever, but really, the idea that,say, in Spain, youths are hanging around idle watching big tractors spraying massive areas of monocrops, when intensive mixed farming smallholdings would produce more,better food is at least frustrating.


And what has any of the above to do  with beekeeping?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> I stand by that clumsy phrase!


Even here, in happy Orkney, the average age of farmers goes up every year.i.e. there are not that many replacements lining up to farm. I think the story is similar in very many areas.
   What could change this situation?
  My own kids show no inclination to take on my farm, so it will probably be swallowed up by a bigger neighbour.
    Dairy boys are up in arms.
   This place is beautiful, if tough. 
   Not a big point to this post, except that somebody has to keep on the thread of 
 knowledge about how to keep things viable. 
  What we are being offered by the limited advisory services is skewed in many respects. They are all required to be self-funding.
 To think that Orkney, or anywhere else, is going to be benefitted by even a limited corporate takeover is questionable; but it could happen.
Any suggestions?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> And what has any of the above to do  with beekeeping?


            MADASAFISH!   you said it. And next time round the bowl, think about it....

----------


## Calum

> Even here, in happy Orkney, the average age of farmers goes up every year.i.e. there are not that many replacements lining up to farm. I think the story is similar in very many areas.
>    What could change this situation?
>   My own kids show no inclination to take on my farm, so it will probably be swallowed up by a bigger neighbour.
>     Dairy boys are up in arms.
>    This place is beautiful, if tough. 
>    Not a big point to this post, except that somebody has to keep on the thread of 
>  knowledge about how to keep things viable. 
>   What we are being offered by the limited advisory services is skewed in many respects. They are all required to be self-funding.
>  To think that Orkney, or anywhere else, is going to be benefitted by even a limited corporate takeover is questionable; but it could happen.
> Any suggestions?


Carp, seriously thats what I'll be doing if I ever give up life in Germany for a life in the Russian countryside.
I agree the price of milk is appaling, but there are still plenty of niche markets where plenty of money can be earned.
Never seen a farmer here that doesent drive a bmw or merc. - As they say:
In der Not isst der Bauer die Wurst auch ohne Brot 
(in bad times farmers eat their sausage without bread.)

----------


## chris

> Hi Chris
> yes my dandelion/ apple blossom I have to heat. 30°C 24 hours is enough to get it moving, low loss of enzymes and hydroxthingy buildup at that temperature. 
> the runny honey you get in asda has been pasturised, a big difference.
> whats wrong with spin extraction (as long as its not a humid day?).


Hi Calum, just to keep this thread totally off subject,if you're comparing your heating with the hypermarket suppliers, then there's nothing to be said. A quick taste is worth a thousand words. As for spin extraction, well, I too use an extractor, but if,when bored, I crush and strain the occasional comb, I find the honey full of subtle flavours that seem to be dulled by its splatting against the side of the extractor. I have a book by Mathias Thun, and on rereading the honey section, I'm wondering if there isn't a culture difference in what German or French customers expect from the honey they buy.

And the Scots?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Hi Calum, just to keep this thread totally off subject,if you're comparing your heating with the hypermarket suppliers, then there's nothing to be said. A quick taste is worth a thousand words. As for spin extraction, well, I too use an extractor, but if,when bored, I crush and strain the occasional comb, I find the honey full of subtle flavours that seem to be dulled by its splatting against the side of the extractor. I have a book by Mathias Thun, and on rereading the honey section, I'm wondering if there isn't a culture difference in what German or French customers expect from the honey they buy.
> 
> And the Scots?


   We're more concerned with factors which affect worldwide biodiversity: corporate dominance, profits before general benefit, and the considerable problem of misinformation diseminated by parties either paid by, or indirectly paid by, those companies producing products which contribute to the destuction of our global natural balance.
  Even here,in Orkney, several shops sell a Bayer product ,Provado?,to spray on roses against aphids. There are hardly any aphids here, but presumably people still spray these neonics about their blooms due to marketing persuasion.
  The effect of this practice is the reduction of the insect population, fewer worms, butterflies,bumblebees, honeybees etc.
  Does the SBA hierarchy support the marketing of such products? Or anybody else who thinks about it?

----------


## Jon

> the considerable problem of misinformation diseminated by parties...


yes I have a big problem with propaganda as well.

The corporate stuff is only to be expected and anyone with a pulse can see through it.
The stuff coming from the save the planet eco warriors is disappointing when it ignores the facts, the science, the best practice.
The rules with regard to the truth apply to both sides.

But hey JTF. This is a beekeeping forum rather than a vehicle for your anti corporate world view.

Lets hear how your bees have coped this year. Mine have done really well in a season dominated by constant rainfall.

----------


## HJBee

> Does the SBA hierarchy support the marketing of such products?


John, I understand and in principle agree with some of your general points around global monoculture and Eco / environmental aspects. I also respect your obvious passion. But where you let yourself down is statements like the above. Who are you referring to with the above and what is your evidence, as I am at a loss to see senior SBA committee or holders of formal posts promoting such things, and the last Scottish beekeeper being fairly supportive and open to theories that you and Doris have shared on this subject.

----------


## Rosie

> Lets hear how your bees have coped this year. Mine have done really well in a season dominated by constant rainfall.


I realise this wasn't addressed to me but mine haven't done as well as usual this year.  I've had plenty of virgins mate successfully and managed to satisfy all my beginner's requirements for nucs but they built up more slowly than usual and my honey harvest is a disaster.  Apart from that my established colonies are all in rude health with zero summer failures and I am hoping that the weather will be good enough from now on to get me a heather crop.  The only real feeding I have had to do was for my nucs.  I saw some deformed wings around May and was expecting to have to treat before the Autumn but that has not proved to be the case.

The only problems I get are due to the weather but that has always been the case, even in an arable district surrounded by rape.

Steve

----------


## Jon

Hi Steve.

My queens mated well this summer (beside oil seed rape) and I think the weather may have helped as only hardy drones were on the wing.
I have 0ver 30 queens from 30 apideas and lots of group members got mated queens as well.
I have a lot of mine introduced to nucs.
Some people reported all their (yellow) drones kicked out in June.
I have not seen any early or unexpected supersedure this year.
My colonies are still packed with drones although most of the queens have stopped laying in the drone comb and this is getting backfilled with honey.
I did a final batch of grafting and have 80 cells ready for apideas next week.

I only had 4 colonies try and swarm out of about 15 although I did lose a couple of clipped queens when I was away during July.

I also think my mite count is low as I have started treating nucs and am not seeing a significant drop.

I got some honey off at the start of June and hope to have about 20 more supers to extract. Good forecast for the next few days as well.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Only kidding. My father has been keeping bees 50+ years so I had better not fall out with him.
> 
> Anyway, you did right to start this thread as the best way to deal with crazy claims in blogs like this is to highlight the nonsense for all to see.
> 
> Varroa mite infestation as a symptom of neonicotinoid poisoning will be hard to top.


                                                                                                                           The use of the word symptom was imprecise, just a shorthand for the suggestion that any threats to bees could be exacerbated by the chronic debilitation of bees' immune responses due to neonics, as has been shown in the case of Nosema.
       I haven't found any studies backing up this claim ( Varroa suscepibilty/ neonics)
       Has anybody else?

----------


## Jon

John, go back to post number one on this thread and click the link to the blog by Rosemary Mason who recently visited Orkney.
Virtually everything in the blog such as the claim that varroa is  a symptom of neonicotinoid poisoning is gibberish or misinformation, at very best, misleading.  The paragraph about the 'Austrian Ombudsman' may well give you a clue as to where this stuff was sourced.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

Quote Originally Posted by Johnthefarmer View Post
Does the SBA hierarchy support the marketing of such products? Or anybody else who thinks about it?




> John, I understand and in principle agree with some of your general points around global monoculture and Eco / environmental aspects. I also respect your obvious passion. But where you let yourself down is statements like the above. Who are you referring to with the above and what is your evidence, as I am at a loss to see senior SBA committee or holders of formal posts promoting such things, and the last Scottish beekeeper being fairly supportive and open to theories that you and Doris have shared on this subject.


  I still await a clear response from Scottish beekepers against the increasing use
of an insecticide which is used in the seed, regardless of demonstrable need, annually.
  This stuff is systemic, residual to some extent and kills or debilitates a wide range of  creatures.

----------


## EmsE

> Quote 
>   I still await a clear response from Scottish beekepers against the increasing use
> of an insecticide which is used in the seed, regardless of demonstrable need, annually.
>   This stuff is systemic, residual to some extent and kills or debilitates a wide range of  creatures.


A clear response was given in the June edition of the Scottish Beekeeper from the President of the position the SBA. What more could you be looking for? However the above quote hints that it's not necessarily the associations position you are looking for? Is this aimed at specific individuals Jon or are you looking for a response from beekeepers in general?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> A clear response was given in the June edition of the Scottish Beekeeper from the President of the position the SBA. What more could you be looking for? However the above quote hints that it's not necessarily the associations position you are looking for? Is this aimed at specific individuals Jon or are you looking for a response from beekeepers in general?


yes.


         from everybody

----------


## Calum

> yes.
>          from everybody


Why from everyone (thought different viewpoints are amongst beekeepers is uncommon)? I agree that pesticides are not great, and would prefer they are not used where it can be avoided. But intensive farming methods seem to be reliant on them, and lots of starving people in the third world are very very dependant on the number of bushels per acre that the USA produces. Especially this year where they are looking at massive crop losses.
You'd put the collateral damage of using pesticides in agricultural areas before starving children?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> You'd put the collateral damage of using pesticides in agricultural areas before starving children?


If I thought the use of neonics was the only way to feed the world, I would have to accept it.

In many circumstances, pesticides are unnecessary and of little economic or yield benefit. This is true for the crops I grow, in this climate with the systems I use to reduce any significant pest threats.
 There are other crops and environments where more thought needs to be given to practices of damage limitation than I have to. In these cases, if and when any evidence of significant levels of pest damage is seen or clearly predicted, then treatments should be applied.
 What I specifically object to is the way neonics are prescribed as a total solution to be used in the seed, annually, without regard to any other factors. This is an unthinking, blunderbuss approach with marked effects on many species whether they are a threat to crop yields or not.

----------


## madasafish

Johnthefarmer

Instead of writing ad infinitum about farming practises on a beekeeping forum, why don't you address the people responsible for using the chemicals? 

Chase the farmers.

We are not the users .. farmers are.

You are a farmer so  persuade  *them.*...

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Johnthefarmer
> 
> Instead of writing ad infinitum about farming practises on a beekeeping forum, why don't you address the people responsible for using the chemicals? 
> 
> Chase the farmers.
> 
> We are not the users .. farmers are.
> 
> You are a farmer so  persuade  *them.*...


Just thought beekeepers might get concerned about a globally increasing pesticide regime which is designed to reduce insect populations bigstyle.
 Hope I'm not wrong.
 And, yes, I do try to persuade other farmers against ill-considered pesticide use.
  But as beekeepers are, by definition, clearly committed to the preservation of our insects, I presumed they would take it upon themselves to fight such a threat.

----------


## Trog

The thing is, John, that if you're a farmer, it's your entire way of life; what you do for a living.  On this forum, I think we're mostly hobby beekeepers, with the emphasis on Hobby.  It's a tiny bit of all the other things we do.  In the UK we all have a choice whether or not we keep our bees within flying distance of treated crops.   Even in crowded, big-farm Hampshire, I kept my bees in a garden well away from OSR and the rest.  There are bigger things even for beekeepers to worry about, varroa being the biggest, in my opinion.  By all means lobby other farmers to get them to stop using whatever you don't like them using; lobby the supermarkets to stop them stocking neonic-treated crops if you like. Picket Kirkwall co-op and hand out leaflets to shoppers.  All a far more effective use of your time than banging on and on about neonics on a hobby beekeeper's forum, surely?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> The thing is, John, that if you're a farmer, it's your entire way of life; what you do for a living.  On this forum, I think we're mostly hobby beekeepers, with the emphasis on Hobby.  It's a tiny bit of all the other things we do.  In the UK we all have a choice whether or not we keep our bees within flying distance of treated crops.   Even in crowded, big-farm Hampshire, I kept my bees in a garden well away from OSR and the rest.  There are bigger things even for beekeepers to worry about, varroa being the biggest, in my opinion.  By all means lobby other farmers to get them to stop using whatever you don't like them using; lobby the supermarkets to stop them stocking neonic-treated crops if you like. Picket Kirkwall co-op and hand out leaflets to shoppers.  All a far more effective use of your time than banging on and on about neonics on a hobby beekeeper's forum, surely?


Then perhaps this section of the forum should be shut down, and you all carry on regardless.
Sorry.

(The French beekeepers wouldn't agree with you) Neither would Doris, who is so pissed off with you all she's given up posting.

----------


## madasafish

John

I don't know Doris. She may very well be the most pleasant person imaginable in real life. But I can assure you I don't miss her absence at all... in fact  in my view the forum is a more rational and pleasant place without her.

You must realise that people who harp on and on and on about their chosen subject - whatever it may be - are just plain boring  at best no matter how right or wrong they may be. And at worst they are disruptive trolls.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> John
> 
> I don't know Doris. She may very well be the most pleasant person imaginable in real life. But I can assure you I don't miss her absence at all... in fact  in my view the forum is a more rational and pleasant place without her.
> 
> You must realise that people who harp on and on and on about their chosen subject - whatever it may be - are just plain boring  at best no matter how right or wrong they may be. And at worst they are disruptive trolls.


Alright, that's it, I'm out too. Best of luck, Scottish Beekeepers.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> Alright, that's it, I'm out too. Best of luck, Scottish Beekeepers.


over to you, Gavin et al.

----------


## Trog

And so JTF trundles off into the sunset to picket Kirkwall Co-op and persuade shoppers to have nothing to do with neonic-laced crops and goods manufactured therefrom, without bothering to answer one of my points which I thought were pretty reasonable.

----------


## Calum

JTF & Doris the pussy riot of the SBA Forum?

----------


## drumgerry

And that would make Gavin Vladimir Putin then?!

----------


## gavin

You'd better believe it!  Any more of that nonsense and I'll .... I'll .... make them sing raucous songs in a church somewhere.  Or something.

I now feel that I have to send Calum something to prove that I'm not vertically challenged after all.

OK, let's move on now then, shall we?  Perhaps we can even return to discussing some of these topics rationally.  The last Scottish Beekeeper and the one to come could provide a few discussion points, for example.

----------


## Calum

So I have taken the time to read through this and all related thready again, I've copied all the main points to post it notes and stuck them on the wall of my living room. I have used red thread to join up all the cumulative factors to bee deaths and blue threads to link the business interests. It has been enlightening, I have been adding newspaper clippings, and share price changes from the main players. The conclusions are astounding and when looked at from a distance of 10ft blatantly obvious.

----------


## Rosie

Are you going to share them with us Calum?

----------


## marion.orca

Sure beats re-wallpapering Calum, and probably far more interesting too.

----------


## madasafish

I am waiting for the conclusion.. or is the wait going to be responsible for the demise of beekeepers through suspense?

----------


## Johnthefarmer

Joke all you like, you boys, but global companies are increasingly influencing every aspect of our lives ,and it's hard to know how to counter such a force. 
 Whether it's banks, oil companies, pharma, energy,transport, agri  etc. their loyaties are to shareholders and company members. This is not the same as loyalty to humanity in general, and certainly not to biodiversity, habitat maintenance, or bees.
  Yes, I am pissed off with you Scottish beekeepers for lack of balls in facing up to these fairly modern threats to healthy living.
  You may say what has this to do with us beekeepers.
   Well, I say, if beekeeepers don't object to habitat degradation, who will? 
   I did say I wouldn't post again, but I am.

----------


## Rosie

I think many agree with you JTF about the amorality of capitalism but you have not managed to convince anyone that replacing neonicotinoids with other pesticides is necessarily a good thing.  Those of us who are living with them in the UK have seen no harmful effects and fear a return to the bee poisonings of the past.

In addition few appreciated Doris's treachery and your habit of hyjacking so many threads to push your own hobbyhorse.  You are not the only ones with passions but the rest of us reign ours in for the good of the forums.

Steve

----------


## Jon

> I think many agree with you JTF about the amorality of capitalism but you have not managed to convince anyone that replacing neonicotinoids with other pesticides is necessarily a good thing.


I concur with that. As far as I can see the carbamates, organophosphates and their ilk represent a far bigger threat to bees, humans, otters and even the humble capybara.

The evidence for neonicotinoid problems through general usage such as seed dressed oil seed rape or maize is just not there.
The problems noted have been caused by negligence with planter dust and talc, soil injection and chemigation.

The lack of balls is shown by those who go with the flow. 99% of posters on the bee forums seem to believe the hype that neonicotinoids are leading to the demise of bees. I have oil seed rape beside me and I have increased from 17 colonies to 39 this year as I wanted to make increase to get more colonies for the association apiary and some of the new beekeepers. 20 of those are 5-7 frame nucs but should be strong enough to overwinter.

How can that happen if oil seed rape is bad for bee health? 

Queens have mated well this year as well and we are drip fed this speculative diet of disorientation and early supersedure.
Not happening here I am afraid.

----------


## Johnthefarmer

> I concur with that. As far as I can see the carbamates, organophosphates and their ilk represent a far bigger threat to bees, humans, otters and even the humble capybara.
> 
> The evidence for neonicotinoid problems through general usage such as seed dressed oil seed rape or maize is just not there.
> The problems noted have been caused by negligence with planter dust and talc, soil injection and chemigation.
> 
> The lack of balls is shown by those who go with the flow. 99% of posters on the bee forums seem to believe the hype that neonicotinoids are leading to the demise of bees. I have oil seed rape beside me and I have increased from 17 colonies to 39 this year as I wanted to make increase to get more colonies for the association apiary and some of the new beekeepers. 20 of those are 5-7 frame nucs but should be strong enough to overwinter.
> 
> How can that happen if oil seed rape is bad for bee health? 
> 
> ...


Jon, I do appreciate your fullblooded rebuttals to any critical comments re. neonics..
Have you ever checked whether your farming neighbour does use neonics on his crops?
 If we assume, as you do, that he does, are you still happy that he/she plants seeds each year treated with a broad-spectrum, residual, systemic,ultra-low effectiveness chemical which certainly kills many insects which would not reduce crop yields, and may well wipe out colonies of beneficial insects over time by upsetting behavioural traits-navigation, grooming, etc?

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## Jon

There are several farms growing oil seed rape within a couple of miles of my apiary and yes I do believe that seed treatment produces less collateral damage than spraying. According to the stats virtually all oil seed rape and maize seed is pretreated with neonicotinoid now.
There are certainly some bee dangers to be aware of with neonicotinoids but routine seed dressing is not part of that worry.
The reality is that bees in the UK are doing very well at the moment, the weather notwithstanding.
How did the bee season go on Orkney this year?

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## Johnthefarmer

pretty good.
it would take a response from stromnessbees to expand on my comment...

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## Trog

> Joke all you like, you boys, but global companies are increasingly influencing every aspect of our lives ,and it's hard to know how to counter such a force. 
>  Whether it's banks, oil companies, pharma, energy,transport, agri  etc. their loyaties are to shareholders and company members. This is not the same as loyalty to humanity in general, and certainly not to biodiversity, habitat maintenance, or bees.
>   Yes, I am pissed off with you Scottish beekeepers for lack of balls in facing up to these fairly modern threats to healthy living.
>   You may say what has this to do with us beekeepers.
>    Well, I say, if beekeeepers don't object to habitat degradation, who will? 
>    I did say I wouldn't post again, but I am.


OK, JTF, so I'll play along with your assumptions if you can tell me how global companies influenced my supper this evening, since you say they are influencing every aspect of our lives.  Let me see now.  Ling caught by myself, baked with a home-made stuffing in a wood fired oven.  The wood came from our coppice woodland and from a forest down the road.  Served with a ratatouille made with British aubergine, tomato and courgette from the Co-op (I assume you approve of co-operatives) with home grown onion and shallots.  Potatoes dug from my veg plot.  Pudding was Eve's pud with a cooking apple from said veg plot, the first picking of wild brambles, and the topping made with my free-range eggs.  Custard also made with free-range eggs - in a microwave made by a global company but which saves energy when used wisely.  During the day it is solar powered; at night we buy back some of the energy we have deposited with the Hydro, a company which uses a lot of renewable energy, as you might assume from the name.

Now, I spent most of the day putting together a report for a non-global charity organisation and some of it walking to the Co-op and back ... don't use the car for short distances.  Mucked out the stable; resulting compost grows the veg.  Fed the hens, though they get most of their food themselves while out and about.  Checked the hives still had roofs after the gale.  Checked the dinghy was OK ditto.  Yesterday watched a family of goldfinches feasting on the knapweed seedheads along the drive.

Yep, definitely a day influenced by global companies ????????????

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## Johnthefarmer

> There are several farms growing oil seed rape within a couple of miles of my apiary and yes I do believe that seed treatment produces less collateral damage than spraying. According to the stats virtually all oil seed rape and maize seed is pretreated with neonicotinoid now.
> There are certainly some bee dangers to be aware of with neonicotinoids but routine seed dressing is not part of that worry.
> The reality is that bees in the UK are doing very well at the moment, the weather notwithstanding.
> How did the bee season go on Orkney this year?


Still,  nobody addresses the question of farmers routinely killing every last thing in their fields. Are you not angry, even if you think your bees get off lightly?

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## Jon

Trog. I have similar days as well, no horses to muck out thankfully, and I don't live in a remote area like you do.
Digging my own spuds, making a Spanish omelette with spud and free range eggs, pottering between apiaries on a bicycle, charity work, organising the queen rearing group every monday evening, allotment and allotment committee meetings, bantering on a bee forum or two.

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## Johnthefarmer

> OK, JTF, so I'll play along with your assumptions if you can tell me how global companies influenced my supper this evening, since you say they are influencing every aspect of our lives.  Let me see now.  Ling caught by myself, baked with a home-made stuffing in a wood fired oven.  The wood came from our coppice woodland and from a forest down the road.  Served with a ratatouille made with British aubergine, tomato and courgette from the Co-op (I assume you approve of co-operatives) with home grown onion and shallots.  Potatoes dug from my veg plot.  Pudding was Eve's pud with a cooking apple from said veg plot, the first picking of wild brambles, and the topping made with my free-range eggs.  Custard also made with free-range eggs - in a microwave made by a global company but which saves energy when used wisely.  During the day it is solar powered; at night we buy back some of the energy we have deposited with the Hydro, a company which uses a lot of renewable energy, as you might assume from the name.
> 
> Now, I spent most of the day putting together a report for a non-global charity organisation and some of it walking to the Co-op and back ... don't use the car for short distances.  Mucked out the stable; resulting compost grows the veg.  Fed the hens, though they get most of their food themselves while out and about.  Checked the hives still had roofs after the gale.  Checked the dinghy was OK ditto.  Yesterday watched a family of goldfinches feasting on the knapweed seedheads along the drive.
> 
> Yep, definitely a day influenced by global companies ????????????


my days are similar, but we are in a distinct and reducing minority. aren't we lucky bunnies?
maybe that explains why global stuff doesn't bother you..
I came here from Manchester. My mum still lives there.

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## Calum

Hi
my conclusion is Bayer should use thier immense expertise to develope an effective Varroa treatment that can be used in low temperature and humid conditions effectivly without side effects like wax residues.
Maybe we should pettition them to do that.

JTF, Trog & Jon I envy your lifestyles, maybe when I retire I can enjoy something similar. Having to do my driving license at the ripe old age of 37, the job finally demands it, already have an allotment and have had so much out of it I've been supplying both next doors with surpluses.
There are many people that thank their lucky stars that pharma companies have developed drugs and vaccines that have saved countless lives. 
Some banks are ok, though the big ones and some small ones are a shower of sh*ts (my brother had to take a very expensive pension plan out to get a business loan with B*S). I bank with Sparkasse and am really happy with a great serivce.

I oil companies - well only a proportion of what they make is petrol, petrochemicals have build the modern world (plastics, edmps, fertilisers,,,) you can look for negatives and ignore positives in every endeavour, or you can try to be a positive influence on the journey.

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## Trog

Well said, Calum.  My post, far from being smug, was to challenge JTF's assertion that we're all influenced by global companies all the time.  Then he jumps to the conclusion that I'm not concerned about 'global'.  Very odd, given that he knows absolutely nothing about my beliefs!  I can't remember which organisation has the slogan, 'Think global, act local' but I think the essence of it is quite good.  It's all very well jumping up and down about 'evil' global companies and their 'evil' products but to take that to a logical conclusion, JTF would have to do all his farmwork with horses rather than tractors and ATVs (maybe he does?), drive a horse and cart when he wants to go anywhere, never fly (I'm assuming he always uses the ferries from Orkney), and refuse any medical treatment from conventional sources.  So, surely rather than getting all hot and bothered about the lesser of two evils (neonics as opposed to what went before), learning how to keep bees properly, through information, mentoring at local association level, and education - which is what the SBA is all about - will help them far more than any number of petitions and getting angry on bee fora.

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## Jon

What irritates a lot of beekeepers is the way beekeeping has been hijacked by anti pesticide campaigners who are not even beekeepers.
There was a guy on the old bbka forum, now resident on beekeeping forum, who posted about pesticides for about 18 months and he had never been a beekeeper. He now has some in a top bar hive which I guess takes the bad look off the thing when you spend hours of every day campaigning against the evils of the world on a beekeeping forum.

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## Trog

Just wondering how the anti-global folk manage to post on fora.  I'm assuming they use a wind-up (in both senses) gadget of some sort, cobbled together from willow trimmings rather than something supplied by the evil corporate computer giants, made of evil petrochemicals, and via multi-national ISPs ...

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## Jon

When I met Doris at the bibba conference she was using a laptop running Windows XP and sorting out slides on Powerpoint, another product from the stable of the evil Microsoft. I even gave her a hand  - and there was no mention of Imidacloprid whatsoever. Oh how times have changed!  I can't say for sure, but it appeared to be powered by a battery as opposed to something hacked from the hedgerow. Torquil might have been pedaling furiously around the corner in order to keep the screen bright.
Rosie was there too and s/he wasn't wearing a dress.

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## chris

Just managed to wind up my computer so I have 5 mins. to ask : Has anyone seen a documentary titled (translation) The Mystery of the disappearing bees byMark Daniels? (or Conan Doyle). It's on Arte tv tonight (so Calum should be able to see it). Anyway, I was wondering if it's worth watching or whether it's the typical intox fed to the tv companies.

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## Calum

hi
seen it, nothing much interesting. Some miss information.
Doesnt answer any questions (its a couple of years old now -2007?? so re CDD dated already) just hints at possible causes.

Anything about commercial beekeepers in the USA has little relevance here - they travel to so many different comercial crops that are spayed with very different pesticides the pollen samples from those hives are a chemical cocktail and a half. 
Also they treat fouldbrood with antibiotics so don't cure it, just put a chemical lid on it (the spores are still in the hives so only the symtoms cured). 
At the end of it youd probably just be happy not to be a bee in the USA....

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## madasafish

I just love the clear and unbounded and obvious cynicism and hypocrisy of those who decry "global " companies. The NHS uses equipment made by global companies and drugs made by global companies. Without them , it would not exist in its present form. I assume that is what they want and they will state that publicly.

The food we eat and the clothes we wear are all transported using fuel produced by global companies and transported in cars, lorries, aeroplanes and ships made by global companies.. 

Farmers use equipment made by global companies.

Beekeeping is one of the few aspects of farming where you can farm using natural materials and make everything at home... but then we are ranted at by people who should really  - if they really believe what they say - should be politicians trying to persuade the wider public.

I seriously object to people choosing bee forums to rant on their own chosen subject. I hope they practise what they preach and use abacuses rather than spreadsheets and eschew mobile phones, the internet and modern lighting  - electric light bulbs are made by global companies as is electricity.

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## Jon

Nice post madasafish.
We all have to make our own bed and lie in it with regard to the products we use. It is hard to avoid some multinational products such as electricity which actually bring some benefits and even allow us to communicate via this internet thingy.

As Rosie said in a previous post, we all have passions and interests which we have to hold back for the good of a specialist forum such as this one. I could get up on my high horse about the energy wasted by meat eaters as opposed to those of us who have chosen a vegetarian diet.

Be interesting to hear JTF and Doris justify the carnivore diet in terms of sustainability. Apparently it takes 26k of grain to produce 1k of meat and the rain forest is being cleared at at a shocking rate to allow Brazilian cattle to do a bit of grazing. But no way would those people on Orkney be eating meat anyway!

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## lindsay s

Hi everyone I had meat for my tea and I loved it. My beekeeping season has been below average and Ive been in contact with other local beekeepers who have experienced the same conditions as me. I suppose it serves me right because Im not an organic tree-hugging farmer.

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## gavin

LOL!  Can anyone join in?  

I had a mostly vegetarian tea (dinner for any posh folk reading) but it did have bits of bacon in it and it contained veg from far away that probably had a high carbon footprint.  Bought at a large corporate and probably international supermarket.  I drove around quite a bit today in my vehicle made by a global company using diesel that was produced and marketed by a multinational and visited two bee sites, one in the hills, thus ensuring that my honey is, once again, some of the most carbon costly (as well as plain costly) around (not proud of it, just saying).  I put a chemical on three hives (thymol, don't give me any of that nonsense that it is an organic treatment), no doubt necessary because of the neonics that have eliminated the natural immunity of the bees and allowed the Varroa to flourish.  Come to think of it, Varroa is only a visible problem in a delinquent colony belonging to a friend which I've taken into custody to requeen.  It has spent its last year in the middle of town and escaped the neonic holocaust endured by its new apiary-mates, so I just can't explain why it is the one with the mite problem whilst mine are sailing through summer with hardly a mite to be seen.

Anyway, I digress.  The telly (global company) is on in the corner, I've been using my mobile (global company) tonight for a crucial conversation with a bee farmer (no, not *that* one) and I'm typing this on a Microsoft-driven laptop itself made by a global corporation.  

I have wondered whether the mobile was going to fry my brain or give me tumours in my testicles (but science has more or less assured me that it is OK), whether the laptop was going to rot my brain (think it has), the diesel give me asthma (may have contributed to a small touch of it) and the carbon contributed to the early demise of the planet (undoubtedly).  However, despite all this and especially the onslaught of neonic-soaked forage in April to early June, my bees seem in remarkably good health.  Rude health, even.  The slow to build splits after much-delayed queen mating are building nicely now back at the home apiary.  The stronger ones are actually filling supers of cut comb at my heather site and I added additional ones today.

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## Rosie

Gavin, by taking advantage of all this modern technology provided by big business you have extended your life from 40 years to 75 or 80.  You will hence consume twice the earth's resources and eat twice as many chips as you would have done had you been born a few hundred years back.  You should be ashamed of yourself!

Steve

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## Calum

In Orkneys defence to give the Isles some credit

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## Jon

> You will hence consume twice the earth's resources and eat twice as many chips


Or deep fried mars bars as the case may be.




> I suppose it serves me right because I’m not an organic tree-hugging farmer.


I thought Orkney was bereft of trees.
The tree-huggers must use some kind of surrogate object.

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## chris

Well, as everyone seems to be joking, this is an old one, but I think relevant.
A man jumped off the top of the Empire state building, and all the way down, the workers in the offices heard him saying: "so far so good".

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## gavin

I've more or less given up chips, but have to say that happened well after the age of forty.

Apparently there is a tree in the middle of Kirkwall, but these days it is in bad shape so anyone hugging it please be gentle.

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## gavin

The others that do exist tend to be either not very cuddly ......



or over-used by the locals ......



Maybe one of these instead?

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## Jon

That postcard is from the 1960s unless Kirkwall is like Havana and they drive old cars.
That Lab 3rd from the end of the line has been eating a Mars bar or two.

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## Johnthefarmer

> In Orkneys defence to give the Isles some credit


 Tomorrow, I'm expecting a visit from SSE about the 10 acre substation they want to build on my shore outrun.This is to collect, transform, then ship most of Orkney's marine electricity to mainland Scotland. There are leases sold by the Crown Estate for up to 1600 wave and tidal generators, round our shores.

  On Friday, I get a visit from Orkney Island Council's community benefit officer to discuss my plan to sell the earmarked site to the council so they can negotiate with SSE.Aquamarine, EON etc. on behalf of Orkney, concerning a compensatory tariff on any future profits.

 It's not that I don't appreciate the many benefits we get from big, bad global companies. My concerns are more about their escalating influence, lack of broad accountability; and inability, usually, of governments, councils and non-corporate society in general, to avoid being walked over--payment of taxes, scrutiny of claims, environmental responsibility etc..

  There aren't that many trees to hug up here, maybe that's why I'm so bitter and twisted......

  And, yes, I am rearing a Clydesdale stallion for when the diesel's all gone.

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## Jon

> There aren't that many trees to hug up here, maybe that's why I'm so bitter and twisted......
> 
>   And, yes, I am rearing a Clydesdale stallion for when the diesel's all gone.


You should take up beekeeping. It is a great hobby and a nice way to chill out once you get on top of what is going on in the colony.
You have everything going for you on Orkney apart from climate.
Varroa free which is the main plus point, and limited use of pesticides of whatever hue.

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## Johnthefarmer

I am a beekeeper's apprentice, technical assistant, and general dogsbody.
I may not become a fully-fledged independent beekeeper , but I certainly am interested in beekeeping and the environment.

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## Jon

Seriously though, it is a brilliant way to chill when you get properly into it and things work out.
Some beekeepers never get into the zone and it is a constant battle re. swarm control or aggression.
An ideal Saturday for me is a sunny afternoon in May checking out a stack of colonies as part of swarm control while listening to end of season football commentary on Radio 5.
The queen rearing is also rewarding as you feel you are doing your bit to improve local bee genetics.

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## lindsay s

I clicked on Nellie’s link to the Canadian Honey Council and look what I found on the news page. http://www.honeycouncil.ca/news.php?nType=Canadian Although the 2nd and 3rd articles are inconclusive what are the chances of Doris and John the farmer getting a mass apology.

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## gavin

Lindsay

I started a thread on this here, annoyed that the Canadian regulators (and Canadian branches of the multinationals involved) had failed to heed the problems in Europe and were persisting with dangerous practices.  There were similar happenings in the US.

In the UK and Europe pneumatic-driven seed planters have been required to discharge dust onto or into the soil rather than up in the air.  The HSE have stated that they were unaware of problems in the UK and requested anyone suspecting one to get in touch.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that we should trust the industry all of the time.  But in the UK the uses of pesticides are much more restrictive than in North America and reported bee poisoning incidents have plummeted.

Gavin

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## lindsay s

Interesting debate about neonicotinoids on Radio Scotland this morning 
Scroll to 1:10.30 Im siding with the farmer. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nbxdy

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## Neils

Doesnt work on an iPad sadly, but when I next get in front of a proper computer I'll have a listen.

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## Jon

Dodgy Apple products!
Well worth a listen. The guy from the farmers Union is no pushover re. the neonic armageddon line.

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## gavin

> .. but when I next get in front of a proper computer I'll have a listen.


Me too, a proper computer with a UK IP address.


Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## lindsay s

On the BBC website today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23287504

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## fatshark

£200 million a year agri losses due to honeybee decline ... I doubt it.  I believe the most recent estimate for the value of "pollination services" is about £430M/annum.  And only some of that is honeybees ...

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## The Drone Ranger

I think honeybees are active pollinators but the idea that commercial beekeeping is responsible for all this pollination doesn't stand up
Oil seed rape doesn't need bees yet that's where they go
Heather doesn't need pollinating either. Each plant can live 30 years and produces 1 million seeds/year
Peas are self pollinating and field beans
Soft fruit mostly now in poly tunnels bumblebees
So hobby beekeepers bees are probably more important in flower and garden pollination including fruit where it is needed
Commercial operations are busy but are they needed for pollination? I doubt that

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## Jon

There was a paper claimed a 15% increase in oil seed rape yield if a sufficient number of honeybee colonies per acre are present but I also think the honeybee pollination stuff is well over-egged unless it is a special situation such as California almonds.
We can spend the entire day now paying homage to hoverflies.

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## chris

> I think honeybees are active pollinators but the idea that commercial beekeeping is responsible for all this pollination doesn't stand up
> Oil seed rape doesn't need bees yet that's where they go


Hi DR.
Commercial pollination by honey bees is very important. It's not just the quantity of fruit pollinated, but also its quality that is affected. For example,a strawberry that has no honeybee colonies to pollinate it ends up with about 37 of the compound fruits that form the berry pollinated,is badly formed, and falls into the throwaway category. One that is honeybee pollinated has about 445 of these fruit pollinated, is well shaped, and comes into the *extra* category.
For osr and sunflower, there is a greater amount of oil in the seed.
Just as an example,for seed forming onions,passive self pollination represents 12%-30%, wind 5-10% and honeybees 65-75%. For the strawberry, the honeybee represents 85-90%. The information comes from l'INRA.

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## The Drone Ranger

Onion growers though may want self pollination because they otherwise get unwanted cross pollination (all heritage varieties etc)
Most soft fruit round here is in poly tunnel 
Here's a little analysis of pollination 
http://www.earthtimes.org/conservati...rvices-uk/882/

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## gavin

Folks - we wandered off to discuss a topic that needs space in its own right, the import of Italian and other bees under the SG Restocking funding. Triggered by the appearance of Heather Hills shaking in Italian packages into their empty boxes in a BBC Horizon programme.  So let's take all of that discussion here please:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...amme-2013-2014

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## fatshark

Are neonicotinoid pesticides responsible for the demise of bees and other wildlife?

For once I find myself agreeing with the government ...

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## Bridget

Re the above link - I don't expect the bees will be much taken with MP Joan Walleys' dahlias.  If she had mentioned lavender or ribes I might have believed she knew what she was talking about

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## The Drone Ranger

I am keeping an open mind but neonics are used on far more crops than I realised

This is a pro neonic site
http://www.neonicreport.com/home/project-compass/
If you have time to read the info you may come away more concerned about the use of neonics than reassured 

Here's a little extract

Neonicotinoid seed treatment technology is embraced by many farmers across Europe for all the crops reviewed. For example, *sugar beet farmers strongly depend on this technology*, which has transformed their industry since it was introduced in the 1990s. The technology has the potential to also fully transform Oilseed Rape production and many key growing countries already rely on it.

Unfortunately on this forum the Anti movement have overstated their case and created a negative reaction 
I think the SBA are wise in reserving judgement while gathering further evidence on both sides
I would exercise caution when taking the views of bee farmers, they see no harm from neonics, but anything that means farmers and beekeepers are in conflict can affect their livelihood

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## gavin

Haven't read it but yes, it is the industry view, and as they are very widely used insecticides we should be cautious.




> .....
> I would exercise caution when taking the views of bee farmers, they see no harm from neonics, but anything that means farmers and beekeepers are in conflict can affect their livelihood


But equally (no, more so!) anything that affects their *bees* will affect their livelihood.  So listen to the observant, thoughtful bee farmer especially any that collect their own data on performance.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Haven't read it but yes, it is the industry view, and as they are very widely used insecticides we should be cautious.
> 
> 
> 
> But equally (no, more so!) anything that affects their *bees* will affect their livelihood.  So listen to the observant, thoughtful bee farmer especially any that collect their own data on performance.


I lost faith a little bit when the idea of using bees to deliver fungicide to strawberries was trialed 
Seems the bee is just a delivery tool in some quarters
But you make a fair point Gavin

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## Neils

Just because it was bought to my attention recently:
http://news.sciencemag.org/europe/20...noid-ban-court

Bayer and syngenta are apparently fighting the ban.

I'm actually surprised at this, I thought they might fund the NFU and European equivalents rather than try it themselves but hey ho. Note that the article is dated august 2013, I thought I'd watch for a little while and see what noise was out and about, but it seems pretty quiet.

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## The Drone Ranger

The wildlife strips that were showing up seem to disappear and then re -appear depending on the crop being planted
Am I wrong about that, surely that would be pretty nonsensical

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## fatshark

Can someone remind me about the neonic ban dates ... ?  I'm delighted to see dozens of acres of OSR planted all round my main apiary for next year.  I _think_ the seed will have been treated as it must have been planted in September (ban at the end of the year?).  It may be the last chance I get for a good OSR yield without having to worry about spraying.  I'll be moving another half dozen hives onto the site as soon as it flowers ... and getting my queen rearing started as soon as possible  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

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## lindsay s

Neonicotinoids are back in the news again. Countryfile on BBC1 had its usual impartial but inconclusive report on Sundays programme    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...yfile-oxenhope  you find it at 13 minutes. Also this appeared on the BBC news site yesterday.    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-27980344  I was sitting on the fence but now Im starting to wobble!

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## The Drone Ranger

I have been amazed this year how often spraying goes on 
On soft fruit like raspberries in the open field it seems almost constant
Wheat and potatoes seem to get similar attention
This is going on in the middle of the day in good weather
Course it all drifts onto everything else in the surrounding areas
 Honey Bees might not be the best indicators of the effects 
We know the flying bees are relatively short lived so shortening of their life might be not fatal to the colony
In all the surrounding fields a large number of land drains have been installed in response to the flooding
That means the run off makes it way into streams burns and rivers more quickly

I don't know what is being sprayed a lot of fungicides obviously
It won't stop till a better solution comes along
Its an economic issue really and I would say that moving subsidy from crops that require chemical inputs to crops and methods that reduce the need for them is the possible way forward.
I have about 20 rows of potatoes which took a lot of work to put in earth up etc
I haven't sprayed anything on them for blight ( there is only Diathane 945 anyway)
I am growing Sarpo varieties and very early varieties to try and make the end result  worth while

If I was a farmer with acres of crop I don't think I would be able to resist spraying them either

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## lindsay s

Here is the latest from the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29368497

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## The Drone Ranger

Following the link I read this one as well.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23298530.
The rare Cornish black bee.
The pic seems to be of the not so rare carnie/italia cross 
Odd that they look so similar  :Smile:

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