# General beekeeping > Starting out >  Starting up with Langstroth hives

## Clem

Hello everyone

After some experiences with bees and bee farmers back in South of France where I'm from (so sorry in advance for any misspelling and grammatical mistakes! :Embarrassment: ), I live now in Scotland (yes, quite a big climatic change for me  :Smile: ), in Fife, where I would like to take on bee farming. I have registered with the Fife Beekeepers Association last week, as I guess I will get lot of advices and support from them, as well as social interactions!  :Smile: 

I am currently planning to start with 5 colonies on Langstroth hives and, given I'm totally new to scottish beekeeping, I have a few questions:
- are there any beekeepers managing Langstroth hives in Scotland? (or is it only about National, WBC and Smith?  :Smile: )
- what kind of Langstroth 'box' is more easy to find/is more used? I knew the Langstroth Standard (~241 mm deep), but I recently discovered there is also a Jumbo (~295 mm), Medium (~170 mm) and Shallow (~144 mm)
- is it more frequent to run a colony on 2 Standard as a brood box adding others Standard as supers or to use a Jumbo as brood box then adding Standard or Shallow (even Medium) as supers?
- and finally, are there beekeepers in Fife (as I understood the importance of using a local strain of bees) who could provide me with nuclei on Langstroth frames or would it be easier for me to order packages of bees (ideally from Fife or close)?

Sorry for this long mail and thanks a lot for any pieces of advice you could give me!

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## gavin

Your English is better than many native speakers  :Smile: .

Are you going to the meeting in Dairsie on 11 Feb?  If so we could chat there and once spring is underway I'd be happy to show you round my Fife apiaries.  I'm building up my numbers of colonies in the hope of raising my income from bees and have been trying to fit in around the existing bee farmers in the area.  

Bees in Scotland (of whatever type) tend not to make such large colonies as elsewhere so Ian Craig uses a system with 2 brood boxes and dummy boards to close down the capacity to 8+8 frames for overwintering.

The speaker at the beekeeping meeting on 11th posts here and is talking about getting Langstroths.  A few others on here use them.

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## fatshark

Bonjour Clem  :Wink: 
I'm in Fife but don't use Langstroths. Saying that, one of my strongest colonies (when I checked them all yesterday) is in a Langstroth poly nuc ... bulging at the seams, on National frames  :Wink: 
If you introduce yourself to Gavin at the Dairsie meeting, he'll introduce you to me ... easier than me wearing a red carnation and carrying a copy of The Times. 
Welcome to *the* forum.
PS And I thought the speaker already had Langstroths??

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## Clem

Thank you Gavin! I would be glad to visit your apiaries one (fine spring) day  :Smile: . I will see you on the 11th in Dairsie!

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## Clem

Thanks for the welcome, Fatshark, en francais s'il-vous-plait!  :Smile: 
I will be glad to have a chat with you in Dairsie on 11 Feb.

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## gavin

> ... easier than me wearing a red carnation and carrying a copy of The Times. 
> Welcome to *the* forum.


No, no.  That's definitely a good idea, wear and carry them!  The SBAi official photographer will be waiting .....




> PS And I thought the speaker already had Langstroths??


Malheuresement, c'est vrai!  J'ai oublié.  Je regardais à l'intérieur de ses ruches et lui a montré les danses.

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## gavin

Aha!  The East Neuk.  My bees are both sides of the Tay estuary.  There is a bee farmer with several hundred colonies in Fife.  He's based in the middle but I would imagine he has colonies in the East Neuk too, not sure.  There was also a Tayside bee farmer who used to use the E side of Fife but his colony numbers are much reduced and I don't think that he goes S of the Tay these days.

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## madasafish

> Hello everyone
> ...
> - what kind of Langstroth 'box' is more easy to find/is more used? I knew the Langstroth Standard (~241 mm deep), but I recently discovered there is also a Jumbo (~295 mm), Medium (~170 mm) and Shallow (~144 mm)
> - is it more frequent to run a colony on 2 Standard as a brood box adding others Standard as supers or to use a Jumbo as brood box then adding Standard or Shallow (even Medium) as supers?
> -


I started with Jumbo brood boxes. Far less lifting required. Fewer box joins, fewer frames.I use a hive stand about 40cm above ground so inspection is easier.

I use Shallow frames for honey.. Much lighter and easier to handle. 

Remember a full brood box with honey weighs around 40kg or more!   you have to be strong to lift it and have a good back.. And after a few years , you will have a sore back!

( I only lift Jumbo brood boxes when moving hives - NEVER for inspections.)

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## gavin

I forgot to post a link to Ian Craig's description of his beekeeping system using two brood boxes and dummies. 

I just winter in one brood box (OK, OK, my bees winter in them ... ) for most colonies and go double during the summer for the strong ones.  Bees in polystyrene hives build better and more often need the second brood chamber so I'm planning to prepare enough brood boxes to give two to most hives in this coming season.

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## Clem

Thanks for the link, Gavin, it is very interesting indeed!

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## greengumbo

Just realised who the speaker is !

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## The Drone Ranger

> Just realised who the speaker is !


Is it that John Bercow
the recent replacement for jimmy krankie 
(who I always thought was a bit too effeminate for the job)

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## greengumbo

anyway.......Langstroths. I'm costing up a bunch of hives direct from Swienty but the foundation and frames price looks a bit steeper than some other sites. Anyone dealt with Mann Lake or know of the best cost suppliers for lang deeps ?

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## gavin

> anyway.......Langstroths. I'm costing up a bunch of hives direct from Swienty but the foundation and frames price looks a bit steeper than some other sites. Anyone dealt with Mann Lake or know of the best cost suppliers for lang deeps ?


In the 2014 December sale Thornes charged £37 per 50 for any Lang frame.  Their prices for the shows (Bee Tradex, Harper Adams, Greenmount) in 2015 were significantly cheaper.  I *think* you need to pick them up at one of the shows but might be mistaken.  I don't know if they would be best cost for Langs but I think the shows price last spring was the best available.

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## prakel

I came into the winter looking after four colonies in MannLake langstroth boxes for someone who had lost his apiary, now, at a time when i'm actually looking at a drastic downsizing I've just been given those colonies!

What I will say is that the frames he used, wedge top bar with pre drilled side bars, are very good quality and well worth the catalogue price of +/- £80 per 100. Their sale is coming up any day so that may well be worth a look. I don't think the frames and boxes were included last year but I've already seen an advert including the boxes for this upcoming event so I'd imagine that there's a good chance that the frames may also be included.

The unframed wire excluders which he bought also look very good for £6 each.

One thing did strike me while looking through them. I have a suspicion that the entrance is on the wrong side of the hive. I know that plenty of people get by really well with them as they are but if I was using that hive I'd be trying a few with the entrance on the longside. I think that they might do better; I'm certain that the comb would be used better. 

There's nothing like armchair beekeeping is there?!

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## madasafish

I use Maisemore and/or Thorne's seconds for jumbos at £35 for 50.. Minimal issues. (have to drill holes for wires but not an issue).

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## prakel

> I use Maisemore and/or Thorne's seconds for jumbos at £35 for 50.. Minimal issues. (have to drill holes for wires but not an issue).


Can't comment on the one as I've not used their seconds, but agree that Thorne's (dadant) seconds are sound enough for the job (although I would feel the need to pay extra and get a decent bottom bar). But if I was going over to langstroth I wouldn't look beyond the ML offering simply because in my oppinion there isn't enough difference in price to not buy their firsts. As for holes, it's a pleasant enough job to drill them but I bet it's even nicer to have them delivered pre-drilled.

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## greengumbo

> Can't comment on the one as I've not used their seconds, but agree that Thorne's (dadant) seconds are sound enough for the job (although I would feel the need to pay extra and get a decent bottom bar). But if I was going over to langstroth I wouldn't look beyond the ML offering simply because in my oppinion there isn't enough difference in price to not buy their firsts. As for holes, it's a pleasant enough job to drill them but I bet it's even nicer to have them delivered pre-drilled.


I just had an email about their sales this friday so that looks a distinct possibility  :Smile:

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## mbc

> I'd be trying a few with the entrance on the longside. I think that they might do better; I'm certain that the comb would be used better.


Every langstroth hive I've ever come across has the entrance on the short side, they work fine like this and I couldn't imagine any reason why theyd be better the other way, for a start, you'd either be twisting your back or working directly in front of their entrance, couldn't be doing with that at all!

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## prakel

> you'd either be twisting your back or working directly in front of their entrance, couldn't be doing with that at all!


Maybe I'm missing something obvous but I really don't get the thinking behind this. Whenever I've worked a hive set up 'warm way' in the past I've always positioned myself behind it; never needed to twist my back or stand in front of the entrance. I just can't see why it would be any different with a langstroth if it was set up that way.

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## mbc

> Maybe I'm missing something obvous but I really don't get the thinking behind this. Whenever I've worked a hive set up 'warm way' in the past I've always positioned myself behind it; never needed to twist my back or stand in front of the entrance. I just can't see why it would be any different with a langstroth if it was set up that way.


Four on .a pallet

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## madasafish

> Maybe I'm missing something obvous but I really don't get the thinking behind this. Whenever I've worked a hive set up 'warm way' in the past I've always positioned myself behind it; never needed to twist my back or stand in front of the entrance. I just can't see why it would be any different with a langstroth if it was set up that way.


There is a difference: nats are square boxes so sides are all the same: Langs are rectangles with much longer sides..Side inspection of langs means  (for easy access), MUCH longer stands  - if multiple hives on stands.

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