# General beekeeping > Starting out >  change over from standard brood box to 14x12

## andy

i have 2 hives with standard brood boxes and would like to change over to 
14x12 brood boxes . Can anyone tell me the best way to do the changeover.
Seems like the best time of the year while the colony size is small
but not sure best way to do it, any advice please, thanks.

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## Poly Hive

When the colony is up to a good strength, in my book at least 8 frames of brood, then put the new box on top and if all foundation and the weather not so great then a feed too would assist. 1:1 syrup. Remember it takes a lot of eneergy to produce wax so asking a small unit to do it is stressing them considerably. When they are well established above then put in an excluder to keep the queen up there and 24 days later you are transferred. Super above as required. 

KISS

PH

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## gavin

I would do it as soon as the weather warms, maybe early April or even sooner if there are decent days to do a manipulation.  Restrict the colony in the lower box with dummy boards to the brood nest and not much more, maybe with polystyrene behind them if the colony isn't that strong, and put a similarly dummied deep box on top, with a feeder above.  Bees find it easier to work up than out in spring so there is no need to delay until the box is nearly full.

If you have unused stores outside the brood nest in your lower box you can score them and put them to the sides of the upper box for a short while (not over the active brood nest or the queen will lay in them) or save them to use with splits and swarms later.

Rather like a Bailey comb change.

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## fatshark

Shook swarm? Probably the simplest approach of all ... and lowers the pathogen load in the hive.

--
fatshark

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## Neils

Always feel that a shook swarm for something like this, assuming the colony is otherwise of healthy appearence, is rather a waste of brood.

The more fiddly way would be to make some cardboard/wood inserts to fit the bottom of the frames and transfer existing frames with brood/stores into the 14x12 box and then replace them in a piecemeal fashion with 14x12 frames from then.

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## Poly Hive

These will indeed all work but I wonder at the stress levels.

PH

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## Black Comb

I've done all 3 transferring national to poly.
Shook swarm I think is the easiest and quickest, but you need the colony to be strong.
Ph's method works fine as well.

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## Jon

That's the thing about beekeeping - more than one way to skin a cat and the people who have the most problems are those who are completely rigid.

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## Neils

Personally I'd go with Gavin/PHs method as a preference especially if its a healthy colony.

Shook swarming is perhaps the most straightforward, but on a healthy colony I think it's a terrible waste of brood and you do need a strong colony, too early in the season and you run the risk that you'll be left nursing a small Nuc.

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## Jon

> Personally I'd go with Gavin/PHs method


That would be my gut feeling as well although I don't have bees that need bigger frames!
Very rarely, I have a prolific colony and I just give it a second brood box on top.

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## Neils

Well having also invested in a number of 14x12s I'm going to stick with them but I'm not as sold on them, compared to double brood, as I perhaps once was. As with everything in beekeeping its a compromise of some convenience for slightly less flexibility. It is though pretty straightforward to go from a national to 14x12 even if you just drop the frames in and deal with the resulting comb while you switch the frames. I honestly can't remember how I switched mine over.

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## crabbitdave

Hi there I've made a 14x10 brood to try this year as I wasn't too keen on the 14x12 size for handling but only time will tell

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## wee willy

Classic way is to place a 14x12box of frames of foundation over a.queen excluder during a good honey flow!
This will be drawn and filled with honey with the advantage that the resultant combs will be lovely and straight.
Once extracted(the gravity method if you don't possess a suitable extractor) Remove queen excluder replace wet 14x12 and the bees will move up el-rapido  :Smile: 
Job done painlessly
WW


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## andy

thanks v much everyone for all the advice on changing to 14x12 brood boxes ,will have a go when colonies up to strength, andy

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## alan riach

I have come across quite a few beekeepers who have converted to 14 x 12 and hear 2 slight objections to the 14 x 12 frame. One is that the bees struggle to draw out the full depth and two that the frame is rather unwieldy to handle (a bit deep). There is an alternative slightly "off standard" method of increasing brood box size -the 14 x 10. Frames can be made up using standard BS top and bottom bars and Commercial 16 x 10 side bars. Foundation has to be "clipped" from Commercial 16 x 10. A standard BS brood box can be adapted to suit simply by screwing a 38mm (1.5") eke onto the bottom. The bees draw 10" deep frames well and the 14 x 10 is nice to handle. A suggestion.





> i have 2 hives with standard brood boxes and would like to change over to 
> 14x12 brood boxes . Can anyone tell me the best way to do the changeover.
> Seems like the best time of the year while the colony size is small
> but not sure best way to do it, any advice please, thanks.

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## wee willy

I haven't found a problem with 14x12s! I neither find them unwieldy nor do my bees have trouble drawing foundation,this they do with ease including adding drone cells along the bottom bars!
In my previous post I did suggest placing foundation above a QX during a honey flow to facilitate straight comb!
I did this with BS boxes ,not because of any 'difficulty but rather because bees presented with foundation for which they don't have an immediate use for mess around, draw in random patches chew holes through it ETC.
Like children they need meaningful occupation or they become mischievous  :Smile: 
WW


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## Neils

Most of the objections I hear about 14x12s come from people who don't, and have never, used them.

The frames are heavier than a national, they're going to be, they're a fair bit bigger; as is a full hive as a result.

The bees don't always draw combs right to the bottom if the frame, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest it has no bearing on the stability of the comb in a wired frame either with or without foundation, though freshly drawn foundationless comb is a little more fragile until a few cycles of brood have been through it, but if you aren't waving a comb about then I've never considered it a problem. Where 14x12s can be unwieldy is any double brood manipulation, especially once supers are involved, they get high, and heavy, pretty quick.

In the tropical south I do have a couple of colonies where the brood box still isn't big enough but these I simply don't raise queens from.

A single brood system sacrifices flexibility for simplicity I feel. Lots of people insist I can't demaree or snelgrove with 14x12s despite never being able to explain why this might be so I feel obliged to give it a go this year.

It's not a perfect hive by any means, I've yet to find one that is, but by and large I'm happy with the 14x12. The biggest single drawback I see to them, if you want a single brood box management style, is that very few extractors aimed at hobbyist Beekeepers, I hesitate to call them budget, will take a 14x12 frame.

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