# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  Here we go again!

## Eric McArthur

> Eric. If you tripped in the snow you would blame it on pesticides!!!


Hi Jon

Here we go again!  Finger on right buttonthis time - I hope!
Had to edit to send!
Eric

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CATCH THE BUZZ

Press Release



In the July issue of Bee Culture Magazine there appeared an article by Tom Theobald detailing the fallacy of clothianidin registration in the U.S. That story is below. This article instigated several investigations by various concerned groups. The following Press Release is one result.



Heather Pilatic, Pesticide Action Network

cell: 415.694.8596

Jay Feldman, Beyond Pesticides

202.543.5450, ext 15


SAN FRANCISCO and WASHINGTON, D.C.  Beekeepers and environmentalists today called on EPA to remove a pesticide linked to Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), citing a leaked EPA memo that discloses a critically flawed scientific support study. The November 2nd memo identifies a core study underpinning the registration of the insecticide clothianidin as unsound after EPA quietly re-evaluated the pesticide just as it was getting ready to allow a further expansion of its use.

Clothianidin (product name Poncho) has been widely used as a seed treatment on many of the countrys major crops for eight growing seasons under a conditional registration granted while EPA waited for Bayer Crop Science, the pesticides maker, to conduct a field study assessing the insecticides threat to bee colony health. Bayers field study was the contingency on which clothianidins conditional registration was granted in 2003. As such, the groups are calling for an immediate stop-use order on the pesticide while the science is redone, and redesigned in
partnership with practicing beekeepers. They claim that the initial field study guidelines, which the Bayer study failed to satisfy, were insufficiently rigorous to test whether or not clothianidin contributes to CCD in a real-world scenario: the field test evaluated the wrong crop, over an insufficient time period and with inadequate controls.
According to beekeeper Jeff Anderson, who has testified before EPA on the topic, The Bayer study is fatally flawed. It was an open field study with control and test plots of about 2 acres each. Bees typically forage at least 2 miles out from the hive, so it is likely they didnt ingest much of the treated crops. And corn, not canola, is the major pollen-producing crop that bees rely on for winter nutrition. This is a critical point because we see hive losses mainly after over-wintering, so there is something going on in these winter cycles. Its as if they designed the study to avoid seeing clothianidins effects on hive health.
According to James Frazier, PhD., professor of entomology at Penn States College of Agricultural Sciences, "Among the neonicotinoids, clothianidin is among those most toxic for honey bees; and this combined with its systemic movement in plants has produced a troubling mix of scientific results pointing to its potential risk for honey bees through current agricultural practices. Our own research indicates that systemic pesticides occur in pollen and nectar in much greater quantities than has been previously thought, and that interactions among pesticides occurs often and should be of wide concern." Dr. Frazier said that the most prudent course of action would be to take the pesticide off the market while the flawed study is being redone.
We are losing more than a third of our colonies each winter; but beekeepers are a stubborn, industrious bunch. We split hives, rebound as much as we can each summer, and then just take it on the chin  eat our losses. So even these big loss numbers understate the problem, says 50-year beekeeper, David Hackenberg. What folks need to understand is that the beekeeping industry, which is responsible for a third of the food we all eat, is at a critical threshold for economic reasons and reasons to do with bee population dynamics. Our bees are living for 30 days instead of 42, nursing bees are having to forage because there arent enough foragers and at a certain point a colony just doesnt have the critical mass to keep going. The bees are at that point, and we are at that point. We are losing our livelihoods at a time when there just isnt other work. Another winter of more studies are needed so Bayer can keep their blockbuster products on the market and EPA can avoid a difficult decision, is unacceptable.
"The environment has become the experiment and all of us  not just bees and beekeepers  have become the experimental subjects," said Tom Theobald, a 35-year beekeeper. "In an apparent rush to get products to the market, chemicals have been routinely granted "conditional" registrations. Of 94 pesticide active ingredients released since 1997, 70% have been given conditional registrations, with unanswered questions of unknown magnitude. In the case of clothianidin those questions were huge. The EPA's basic charge is "the prevention of unreasonable risk to man and the environment" and these practices hardly satisfy that obligation. We must do better, there is too much at stake."
Tom
I became concerned about clothianidin in 2007 as the possible cause of a break in the Fall brood cycle I was seeing in my bees and in early 2008 I began digging into the facts surrounding its approval. That story is instructive and cause for great concern I believe.

The first record I found on the consideration of clothianidin comes in the form of an EPA memo dated February 23, 2003, titled 'Risk Assessment for Seed Treatment of Corn and Canola.' To their credit, EPA scientists raised serious concerns in that document and called for strong label language if clothianidin was to be approved for use. They cited the experience in France with imidacloprid as the basis for extreme caution and called for label language which would highlight the dangers. Quite responsibly, they called for a field test of the dangers prior to registration:
'The possibility of toxic exposure to nontarget pollinators through the translocation of clothianidin residues that result from seed treatment (corn and canola) has prompted EFED [Environmental Fate and Effects Division] to require field testing that can evaluate the possible chronic exposure to honey bee larvae and queen. In order to fully evaluate the possibility of this toxic effect, a complete worker bee life cycle study must be conducted, as well as an evaluation of exposure and effects to the queen.' and they called for strong label language as well:

This is the Deepwater Horizon in agriculture. Americas farmland is awash in these questionable chemicals as surely as the shorelines of the Gulf Coast are awash in crude oil, and for many of the same reasons.

The bees are telling us something. We need to start listening before its too late.

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## Jon

> Heather Pilatic, Pesticide Action Network


 aka Posh Spice!!




> And corn, not canola, is the major pollen-producing crop that bees rely on for winter nutrition.


Do US bees really load up on corn pollen - a plant which is primarily wind pollinated.
I have seen my own bees collecting pollen from sweetcorn but only very rarely.
Maybe this happens if bees are surrounded by thousands of hectares of corn monoculture.

Might be difficult to separate the negative effects of monoculture from the negative effects of pesticides.
Isn't there published work which shows that having a restricted choice of pollen is not good for bees?

I do agree that pesticides have to be strictly regulated and monitored.

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## chris

> Isn't there published work which shows that having a restricted choice of pollen is not good for bees?


The one I know of is a study by Professor Jacobs of the university of Gand. He had compared the nutritive values of different pollens , with the following results:

Plant supplying pollen / Increase in life expectancy compared with bees fed only on honey

Honey + 0.5 days
Tomato + 5 days
Dandelion +10.7 days
Apple blossom +17.6 days
Strawberry +28 days
Mixed pollen + 27.5 days

Rip up those fields of corn monoculture and plant strawberries :Cool:

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## Jon

They says the bees always know best, but mine don't as they rarely go for the strawberry flowers. The bumbles like them though. Locally, the apple growers who rent a few colonies make sure the dandelion is cut back as it is in flower at the same time as the apple and the bees much prefer it. The pollen from Oil Seed Rape sems to be very attractive to bees as well. Linking back to pesticides, I have not noticed any problem with my bees between mid April and mid May when the OSR is in flower around here. (And I know about the Bayer seed drilling problem in Germany in 2008 before it gets posted again)
In fact this is the time where I see the fastest rate of colony build up and massive amounts of pollen storage. Some years I have about 15-20 acres of OSR planted on a local farm within 400 yards of my bees
I remember reading a study on pollen and surprisingly they did not always go for the pollen with the highest protein content and there is a huge difference in protein content between various pollens. Someone from SCRI will know more.

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## gavin

We had a talk from Dave Goulson of Stirling University and the Bumblebee Conservation Trust on this topic.  It is important in bumblebees too.  Plants in the Fabaceae family (aka legumes, vetches, beans, clovers) are very nutritious.  No self-respecting bumble bee would go near corn, but I did once find a pollen load from a bumble bees made up of grass pollen.

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## Jon

Carbofuran

Eric
I noticed this about buzzards being deliberately poisoned and thought you might be interested. This pesticide has been banned in the EU for over a year and is about to be banned in the US. Some miscreant in the highlands has kept a wee bottle and used it to kill a pair of buzzards in Strathspey Estate.

The thing about pesticides is that none of them are good for birds and bees but some of them are an awful lot worse than others.
Are the neonicotinoids really worse than the ones they are replacing?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-11958330

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbofuran

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009...an-by-2010.php

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## Eric McArthur

> Carbofuran
> 
> Eric
> I noticed this about buzzards being deliberately poisoned and thought you might be interested. This pesticide has been banned in the EU for over a year and is about to be banned in the US. Some miscreant in the highlands has kept a wee bottle and used it to kill a pair of buzzards in Strathspey Estate.
> 
> The thing about pesticides is that none of them are good for birds and bees but some of them are an awful lot worse than others.
> Are the neonicotinoids really worse than the ones they are replacing?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-11958330
> ...


 Hi

THis recent book is worth a read!  Not for the faint hearted or Mills etc fans.

    A remarkable book by Dutch Toxicologist Dr. Henk Tennekes has just been made available online at LULU.COM. It is called 'The Systemic Pesticides - A Disaster in the Making'.

    It describes the catastrophic collapse of the entire farmland ecosystem in parts of Holland due to the massive use of Neonicotinoid pesticides. Hennekes describes how blanket use of Nicotonoids in Holland has led to virtual extinction of many species of: insects, arthropods, bees, butterflies, beetles - on croplands, in the soil and in the streams, ditches and ponds near those farms.   In turn, Tennekes records how the extermination of almost insect-food from the countryside has destroyed the base of the Food Pyramid, leading to catastrophic declines in the populations of insect-eating birds liek Skylarks, Warblers, Tree Sparrows and House Sparrows, Partridges.  Tennekes report confirms what many beekeepers have suspected all along - namely that Systemic Nicotinoid insecticides have killed, and are continuing to kill:  bees by the billion, and colonies by the millions.

    The book is available as an Ebook - download from the link below at a cost of just 10 Euros (£8 or $10). It is a serious ecological report rather than a book for general readers, but all ecologists, beekeepers and bird conservationists should read this description of the coming Ecological Apocalypse.

    VISIT:

http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/th...ecticides-a-di...

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## Eric McArthur

> aka Posh Spice!!
> 
> 
> 
> Do US bees really load up on corn pollen - a plant which is primarily wind pollinated.
> I have seen my own bees collecting pollen from sweetcorn but only very rarely.
> Maybe this happens if bees are surrounded by thousands of hectares of corn monoculture.
> 
> Might be difficult to separate the negative effects of monoculture from the negative effects of pesticides.
> ...


Hi Jon 
Your reference to corn got me thinking about  guttation. Bonmatin did work on this phenomenon some time ago - I recall that initially this work was viewed kindly by a member of this forum  but later it was castigated by the same person!
................................................
Honey bee drinking guttation water on cereal
13 sec - 18 Jan 2010 - Uploaded by ProBeekeepersGermany
This bee is drinking guttation droplets on cereal leaves - notice all the little droplets along the necessary (the pic did not paste!)

Eric

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## Jon

Hi Eric
I think a red herring alert should be posted re. the entire business of guttation water.
It is highly unusual for bees to drink guttation water. Why would they do that when there is water in puddles? You only see guttation water early in the day when bees are not really up and about to forage, or after rain when the ground is covered in puddles anyway. There was an Italian researcher, Girolami, who fed bees imidacloprid tainted guttation water with a pipette and killed them. What that proved is anyones guess. At a minimum we now know that insecticide kills insects including bees especially if they are dehydrated and offered a source of water with poison in it.
Bonmatin's work, which is now quite dated, was not replicated by others who set the level of harm at a higher concentration. It mostly seemed to look at what dose of toxin was harmful to bees and he argued that lower levels than those recommended were actually harmful. I haven't read the Tennekes book so I don't know what he adds to the overall picture. I listened to Phil Chandler interviewing him in his podcast and Tennekes sounded as dull as ditchwater, but I guess that is not a crime. Phil made up for Tennekes' lethargy with his 500 word questions. Maybe that stupified him!!

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## Eric McArthur

> Hi Eric
> I think a red herring alert should be posted re. the entire business of guttation water.
> It is highly unusual for bees to drink guttation water. Why would they do that when there is water in puddles? You only see guttation water early in the day when bees are not really up and about to forage, or after rain when the ground is covered in puddles anyway. There was an Italian researcher, Girolami, who fed bees imidacloprid tainted guttation water with a pipette and killed them. What that proved is anyones guess. At a minimum we now know that insecticide kills insects including bees especially if they are dehydrated and offered a source of water with poison in it.
> Bonmatin's work, which is now quite dated, was not replicated by others who set the level of harm at a higher concentration. It mostly seemed to look at what dose of toxin was harmful to bees and he argued that lower levels than those recommended were actually harmful. I haven't read the Tennekes book so I don't know what he adds to the overall picture. I listened to Phil Chandler interviewing him in his podcast and Tennekes sounded as dull as ditchwater, but I guess that is not a crime. Phil made up for Tennekes' lethargy with his 500 word questions. Maybe that stupified him!!


Hi Jon
Using the old adage  A picture is worth a thousand words!  How many words do you reckon a video is worth?  Follow the link and tell me again that bees do not visit grasses for water. Read the book!  Dead bees and birds are also deadly dull!
Eric
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ54VS8qMQ&NR=1

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## Eric McArthur

> Hi Jon
> Using the old adage  A picture is worth a thousand words!  How many words do you reckon a video is worth?  Follow the link and tell me again that bees do not visit grasses for water. Read the book!  Dead bees and birds are also deadly dull!
> Eric
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZZ54VS8qMQ&NR=1


If the link doesn't work  - no worries Google -   bees guttation corn grass

Eric

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## Jon

Eric you must have better eyesight than me.
All I can see is an out of focus bee moving around in out of focus grass in the lens of a shaky photographer.
How do you know it is not collecting pollen. That's what it appears to be doing.
Did Gavin not mention recently finding grass pollen in pollen samples he looked at?

How many times in your forty plus year beekeeping career have you seen bees collecting guttation water and how many times have you seen them collect from other sources such as puddles and pond edges.
I'm not suggesting that bees 'never' collect guttation water but in my experience it is not usual. If it isn't common, it's unlikely to be a cause of bee decline.
Oh yes, bee decline.
40,000 to 120,000 colonies in the UK over the past 30 months.
My own experience is an increase from 4 to 30 in that time, now back to 21 after combining some nucs and having a few dwindle away in the autumn. And I have sold about 8 nucs as well.
I will bet you that the main cause of bee loss in the uk is not pesticides. It is non treatment or inadequate treatment of varroa mites.
If you read biobees.com it seems to be a long list of 'natural beekeepers' aka, non varroa treaters, losing their bees and blaming Bayer.

Here is a better example although it looks more like raindrops or irrigation water on the leaves rather than guttation droplets. if you look at the second video you will see the guttation droplet is exuded from the tip of the maize seedling.
I have sown and cultivated acres of maize in Mexico and I still grow a couple of hundred plants on my allotment where I have most of my (thriving) bees. Actually on reflection, that is definitely not guttation water. Time for another red herring alert thanks to ProBeekepersGermany





This is a Girolami influenced chap feeding poison to bees and falling off his chair with surprise when they die.




None of this is new news Eric.

There was a thread on the bbka site about two years ago titled German researchers kills bees by hand - blame Bayer

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## Eric McArthur

Hi All
Varroa is a major problem, and so is the Beebase advice relative to keeping the mite population  below a 1000 mite damage  level.  With this number of mites in a colony entering winter, the colony is doomed.  
The  legalgray area  of the oxalic acid situation discourages many beekeepers from using this critically important treatment.
 That formic acid is still illegal is a travesty.  Beekeepers need the tools and the correct advice to weather Varroa.  The pesticides problem does not help.
..................................................  .
Jon
It is highly unusual for bees to drink guttation water. 
..................................................  .............
This is a purely subjective opinion.
..................................................  ..................................................  ...............Jon                                                                                                         How many times in your forty plus year beekeeping career have you seen bees collecting guttation water?
..................................................  .......................................
I know a number of beekeepers who are in denial that bees forage on hawthorn, despite the fact that in many seasons in Scotland it can produce a mono floral harvest.  Its results that count.
..................................................  ..............................................   
Jon                                                                                                              Are the neonicotinoids really worse than the ones they are replacing?  
..................................................  ..................................................  .........
Have a look at the fall in honey yields of French beekeepers during the years 1994 until imidacloprid was banned!
..................................................  ..................................................  .....
.Jon                                                                                                             40,000 to 120,000 colonies in the UK over the past 30 months.
..................................................  .........
When the Swedish government carried out the first population Census in the late 1900 it was assumed that the population numbered around 20 million.  The Establishment went into shock when the true figure of  2 million emerged.  Check it out!! 
..................................................  ............
Jon                                                                                                                Might be difficult to separate the negative effects of monoculture from the negative effects of pesticides.
..................................................  ..............................
Classic double negative!  
..................................................  ....

Hi Jon

Have your say.  Ill be back soon!

Eric

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## Jon

> Have your say.  I’ll be back soon!
> Eric


Was that you in Terminator?




> I know a number of beekeepers who are in denial that bees forage on hawthorn,


Mine forage on hawthorn, but not every year. I think they collect more pollen than nectar but you can get a crop from it so I am with you on that one.




> The legal”gray area” of the oxalic acid situation discourages many beekeepers from using this critically important treatment.


I don't think to many worry about that. It is just a hive cleaning process after all and that is quite legal!!

I treated 21 colonies and nucs this week, total cost about 75p and most of that was for the 400g of sugar in the mix.
You can't beat a varroa treatment at a cost of under 4p per colony. I had a look today and very few mites have dropped so far. The strongest colony I have had dropped 25 so that is a result and it will probably drop some more. 25 mites could grow to 1600 between March and September and as you know, 1000 mites is in the problem area.
Eric, you are different from a lot of the pesticide headbangers in that you sensibly treat for varroa.
A lot of beekeepers are losing colonies to varroa and blaming Bayer.




> When the Swedish government carried out the first population Census in the late 1900 it was assumed that the population numbered around 20 million. The Establishment went into shock when the true figure of 2 million emerged. Check it out!!


I doff my cap to you with regard to your knowledge of early 20th century Sweden. Remind me again what it has to do with bee decline.

So you reckon the british countryside is littered with empty bee boxes.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Jon

Jon
I don't think to many worry about that. It is just a hive cleaning process after all and that is quite legal!!
-----------------------------------------------------
Interesting!  When did you start using oxalic acid as a hive cleaner – powerful stuff  if 50 mls cleans a hive, even an empty hive.  Do you use a cloth soaked in the recommended 50ml,  3.5% solution on the interior walls?
..................................................  ............................................
Jon
The strongest colony I have had dropped 25 so that is a result and it will probably drop some more. 25 mites could grow to 1600 between March and September and as you know, 1000 mites is in the problem area.
..................................................  ......
Your 26 mite drop inferred as an overwintering mite population, implies for a perfect understanding of mite population dynamics!  What is your mite drop per day to permit such a guesstimate?  1000 mites as a blanket recommendation with no  qualifying reference to overwintering colonies as in Beebase – is not “ a problem area” it is a “disaster area”!
..................................................  .........................
Jon
Eric, you are different from a lot of the pesticide head bangers.....
..................................................  .............
Todays head banger -  tomorrows soothsayer!
History is punctuated with head bangers – like Galileo, Marco  Polo, Dzierzon, Karl von Frisch;  the list is actually endless.  Sadly you do not seem to warrant a place!  These people were just a bit more observant that their contemporaries!
..................................................  ..

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## Jon

Eric.
Re. the mites. the colony dropped 25 mites 2 days after oxalic treatment.
A natural drop of 25 in December and the colony would be at death's door.

Take 25 mites in march and assume as we are told that numbers can double every month.

March 25 50 100 200 400 800 1600 September

If you start with 100 mites in Spring you will be at critical point by June or July.
Best get rid of the wee devils at a rate of 5ml of Oxalic per seam of bees.




> History is punctuated with head bangers – like Galileo, Marco Polo, Dzierzon, Karl von Frisch;


They were people who went against the flow.
The assumption that pesticides are behind bee problems and ccd is now the orthodoxy in beekeeping. (not everywhere but certainly on the forums, bee-L a notable exception)
Those who go against the flow are the people who challenge that assumption.

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## Eric McArthur

History is punctuated with head bangers – like Galileo, Marco Polo, Dzierzon, Karl von Frisch; 
..................................................
Jon
They were people who went against the flow.

I am against not just the flow but against the torrent of pro- pesticide /pro- GM opinion by many of the active members of this forum.
..................................................  ................................
Jon
If you start with 100 mites in Spring you will be at critical point by June or July.
................................................
I learned to suck eggs some time ago!
That is why I have advised beekeepers for many years to treat their colonies with formic acid in mid April
You never answered my previous question. When did you start using oxalic acid?
..................................................  .....
Regards
Eric

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## Jon

> HWhen did you start using oxalic acid?
> Eric


Last winter was the first time I used it and I had no winter losses last year.

I'm just in from checking some colonies and the one which had dropped 25 on Thursday had another 60 on the board today so I am very glad that one got treated. The other colonies I looked at only had 4 or 5 mites on the board, or none at all in some cases.

Re. pesticide headbanging, I am not 'pro pesticide' My position is that I think the evidence is scant for pesticides being involved in bee decline. My position is the one going against the flow as 99% of posters on the various forums take it for granted that pesticides are to blame - without unduly bothering themselves by looking carefully at the evidence.
As I mentioned in another thread colony numbers have greatly increased in the UK this past couple of years.
I think it is important to separate US problems from European problems as the situation over there is dire.

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## Eric McArthur

> Last winter was the first time I used it and I had no winter losses last year.
> ...............................................
> It took your oxalic penny a long time to drop  - much like my alleles penny.  The Swiss actually promulgated the 3.5% oxalic acid trickle in 1999.
> ............................................
> Jon wrote:
> 
>  I think the evidence is scant for pesticides being involved in bee decline. My position 
> I think it is important to separate US problems from European problems as the situation over there is dire.


..................................................  .......

The long awaited link between imidacloprid and bee death has at last been made. Despite the Profs crystal ball!  This work was caried out in Europe!

2010.
Interactions between Nosema microspores and aneonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera)Dr Cedric Alaux2. Alaux, C., J.-L. Brunet, C. Dussaubat, F. Mondetd, S. 
Tchamitchand, M. Cousind, J. Brillard, A. Baldy, L.P. Belzunces & Y. Le Conte - 

.......Consequently, we tested the integrative effects of an infectious organism (Nosema sp) and an insecticide (imidacloprid) on honeybee health. We demonstrated, for the first time, that a synergistic effect between both agents, at concentrations encountered in nature, significantly weakened honey bees. The combination of Nosema, a pathogen whose importance is emerging, with imidacloprid caused a significantly higher rate of individual mortality and energetic stress in the short term than either agent alone.

Regards

Eric

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## Jon

Eric.
Re Oxalic pennies dropping and 1999, Varoa did not arrive in N Ireland until 2002




> The long awaited link between imidacloprid and bee death has at last been made


Eric. We all know Imidacloprid will kill bees. The question is whether bees are exposed to it at harmful levels.

That study you cite is interesting and I presume you know it is a lab study rather than a field study.
Bees were artificially infected with nosema and deliberately exposed to Imidacloprid.

Here's a link to the full study in case you have only come across the abstract.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.02123.x/full

PS Eric.
Just noticed you already posted that 'long awaited' link over a week ago!

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=nosema

I hope you are not spamming.
We will need to ask Gav for one of those roundup ready threads if you are.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Jon

Jon wrote:
Re Oxalic pennies dropping and 1999, Varoa did not arrive in N Ireland until 2002
..................................................  ....................................
The mite did not show up in the West Central belt until around the same time scale as your region.  However, far-sighted beekeepers in the West of Scotland in 1999 were using the oxalic acid trickle method to confirm or deny that the European method was valid for the UK.  At that time it was viewed as a prophylactic but proof was obtained from this early use that the bees could handle the acid without ill effects.
..................................................  .........................
Jon wrote:
Just noticed you already posted that 'long awaited' link over a week ago!
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=nosema
..................................................  .........................................
Yes, It was moved to another site despite the current thread incurring a lot of interest!
 It is pity.  I seemed to be the only one to realise the significance of the synergism postulation.  This research is the first to make the synergistic link between a honey bee pathogen and imidacloprid. 
The French work was carried out as a peer review,  to confirm the work discussed at Apimondia, 2009, in the van Engelsdorp/Pettis interview for the French TV documentary, The Strange Disappearance of the Bees, in which these two highly respected American apicultural scientists state that they carried out a similar feeding regime on whole colonies and the colony bees just dwindled away!

Jon, I am sorry to have to say this but your veneer of neutrality is slipping by the minute. 
 Id have thought, if you understood the content of the paper you would have been Over the Moon at the break- through and advocated as I have done elsewhere, that this pioneering work requires to be extensively examined and if  the link between the neonicotinoids and honeybee pathogens is further confirmed, that these substances be banned from agricultural practice world wide. The French have had a ban on imidacloprid since 2000. 
..................................................  ..................................
Jon wrote:
I hope you are not spamming.
We will need to ask Gav for one of those roundup ready threads if you are. http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ghlight=nosema
..................................................  ..................................................  ....
Putting links in your posts is "the real meaning of spamming in forum terms"
Jon, Bee my guest! Smacks more of Bully beef!  You are picking on the wrong guy!
..................................................  ............................

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## Jon

> Jon, I am sorry to have to say this but your veneer of neutrality is slipping by the minute.


My position is that I don't know what is behind bee problems and I am happy to look at all the evidence.
I am happy to state that pesticides may be involved.
Are you happy to state that pesticides may not be involved?
If not, then which of us is neutral and which isn't.

I think that study you linked to is interesting but it is a lab study rather than field data so until someone shows that this is happening in the field we are no further on.
Bear in mind this study by your mate Engelsdorp.

He found colonies full of pesticide residue but most of it was stuff put there by beekeepers as part of varroa control.
Check out table 9 and table 10 and report back on any neonicotinoids.




> None of the pesticides detected in more than 20% of the samples in a given matrix was more prevalent in CCD apiaries than in control apiaries (Table 9). There were, however, higher levels of coumaphos in the wax of control apiaries than was detected in CCD apiaries (Wilcoxon rank sum test, P = 0.05, Table 9).
> 
> There were neither differences in the mean number of pesticides detected in the wax of CCD-affected colonies (5.92±0.84) compared to control colonies (5.67±0.84; χ2 = 0.001, P = 0.97) nor the number of detections in beebread (CCD: 5.09±0.71 vs. control: 5.14±1.14; χ2 = 0.038, P = 0.85), brood (CCD: 2.18±0.12 vs. control: 2.07±0.07; χ2 = 0.57, P = 0.44), or adult bees (CCD: 4.37±1.73 vs. control: 9.00±3.88; χ2 = 0.89, P = 0.34).


The thing is, you can demonstrate stuff in a lab such as poisoning a bee with guttation water containing imidacloprid via a pipette but this does not mean that bees are drinking guttation water containing imidacloprid and dying outside of the lab.

That's not really a contentious position.

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## Eric McArthur

Jon wrote:
Are you happy to state that pesticides may not be involved?
..................................................  ..........................
Of course I am!  
 I am also a convinced atheist – but if some deity came to me in the middle of the day and told me that he could and would sort out, not only this vexed question of CCD,  but on a lesser scale make the world a better place to live – I’d get my sword and sandals out of the thatch and follow him!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>
The van Engelsdorp et al work you quote is not relevant here!  Ask Gavin for a squint at the Apimondia 2009, interview video and listen intently to what Pettis and van Engelsdorp say!

Regards 
Eric

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## Jon

> The van Engelsdorp et al work you quote is not relevant here!


On the contrary, it's very relevant as he looked at hundreds of ccd and non ccd colonies and the neonicotinoids were not showing up in wax, bee bread or bees themselves. Did you read it? That paper is probably the most important piece of bee disease research done in 2009.

I believe he is looking more closely at pesticide interactions again but I will wait for anything published before assuming anything.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Jon
Eric wrote: “The van Engelsdorp et al work you quote is not relevant “here””! 

 Jon, ever the cherry picker, wrote: “On the contrary, it's very relevant..”
..................................................  ................................
The keyword here is “HERE”!  I am referring to the van Engelsdorp interview in the Apimondia video.  That is the subject matter on MY table!  Gavin is your contact man!  I am well aware of the multi author work!

Best regards

Eric

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## Jon

Awaiting Gavin's comments with baited breath assuming his dvd player is working. Both paper and dvd are 2009 so I imagine his views are more or less the same in each.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Jon
Times up!
The papers in dispute may have been published in 2009.  However the one you are anchored on was published in June 2009, the paper I  am referring to was published in December 2009.  It is virtually a peer review of the work done and discussed by van Engelsdorp and Pettis during the 2009 Apimondia interview, where they state that imidacloprid, which was below the traceable threshold, acts synergistically in colonies infected with Nosema Sp., and kills the bees.  The French researchers got the same result!
Best regards 
Eric

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## Jon

> the paper I  am referring to was published in December 2009.  It is virtually a peer review of the work done and discussed by van Engelsdorp and Pettis during the 2009 Apimondia interview,


Are you talking about published research, DVDs, videos or something else.

If it is a paper, have you a link to it.
What on earth is 'virtually a peer review'

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Jon
I am referring to the Cedric Alaux et al  paper, published in “Experimental Biology” in December 2009, which was referred to earlier in this thread and ignored. Viz: “Interactions between Nosema microspores and a neonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera)
Google that title and the science will be laid before you in all its glory!

The ‘Results’, page 2, right hand column of that paper states unequivocally: 
“We demonstrated that the interaction between the microsporidia Nosema and a neonicotinoid (imidacloprid) significantly weakened honeybees. In the short term, the combination of both agents caused the highest individual mortality rates and energetic stress.
.............. This provides the first evidences that interaction between an infectious organism and a chemical can also threaten pollinators, interactions that are widely used to eliminate insect pests in integrative pest management.
..................................................  ..........
Eric. If you tripped in the snow you would blame it on pesticides!!!
Jon.  Watch that snow!!

Regards

Eric

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## Jon

It wasn't ignored. I commented above that it was interesting and also that it is a lab study.
Every piece of research helps the understanding of what is obviously a very complicated picture.
Pesticides may play a part, but there again, they may not have a very significant role.
Imidacloprid was being used widely in the US 10 years before the first reported cases of CCD.

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## Eric McArthur

> It wasn't ignored. I commented above that it was interesting and also that it is a lab study.
> Every piece of research helps the understanding of what is obviously a very complicated picture.
> Pesticides may play a part, but there again, they may not have a very significant role.
> Imidacloprid was being used widely in the US 10 years before the first reported cases of CCD.


Hi Jon

Neutrality!  What neutrality!  You must be a Tour de Force when really  'on side'!

Eric

Eric

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## Jon

Eric. I know you find it hard to believe, but some people actually really are neutral while the jury is out, and can wait patiently for the evidence to come in. I know for many people the world is black or white with no shades of grey but I haven't actually thought like that since I was about 19 years old and that was a long time ago.
The stuff I am passionate about, like beekeeping, I am very passionate about  - but I try not to cut all ties with rational thought.

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## gavin

I have to say that the DVD was rather good and I enjoyed watching it.  It was well put together and it was nice to see the faces behind all those names.  Most of it was clear and well-balanced, but they were selective about the people they interviewed, possibly so that they could give it that anti-pesticide spin.  The comments on Nosema and imidacloprid certainly chimed with the Alaux paper, but I have my doubts.  I'm not saying that there isn't a link, but I have my doubts.  There was all that fuss about IAPV which then came to nothing - is this just the same?  There were also heavy hints dropped - by Dennis vE I think, according to US beekeepers on Bee-L - that there was going to be something really important coming out on some fungicide which was associated with CCD, but that never happened.  The French work is lab studies and the lack of any sensible dose-response curve rings alarm bells.  Also the added contribution of the insecticide over and above the already large effect of Nosema on its own wasn't large.  For the detail of Dennis vEnglesdorp and Jeff Pettis' results we'll have to wait until they publish them.  

G.

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## Jon

Eric.

Try this one for size.
I will be interested in hearing your explanation of how they have come to the 'wrong' conclusion and failed to pin the Spanish bee losses on the Pesticide Express.

Abstract
This study is presented in order to determine the presence and impact of some factors related with honeybee colony
losses such as Israeli Acute Paralysis virus (IAPV) and certain pesticides. Samples (house worker bees and stored
pollen from brood chamber) were selected from one hundred apiaries, half of them with a clear underpopulation, in
accordance with region and time of the year. Total prevalence of IAPV either in spring or in autumn was 18%
(CI95% = 9.9-26.0; p < 0.0001), no relationship between IAPV and depopulated colonies was established. Fipronil was
only detected in two samples of stored pollen from asymptomatic colonies and imidacloprid was not detected in any
sample. Like IAPV, neither fipronil nor imidacloprid appeared to be directly related with the generalized problem of
colony death and honey bee losses in professional Spanish apiaries.

http://www.inia.es/gcontrec/pub/658-...0822149843.pdf

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Jon, Gavin and all interested parties
This has been a great platform for airing all kinds of views.  I have enjoyed the cut and thrust of freely expressed opinions.  The Forum has a great future and I look forward to many more ‘tussles’ in 2011.  Let us put our differing views behind us for the present and ‘hunker’ down to a chilly but fulfilling Festive Season with our respective families.

I wish you all an enjoyable Christmas and a Healthy, Prosperous and Happy New Year. (in the hope that we all still have live bees in our hives when this ‘End of Days’ arctic weather is done with us!)
Best Wishes 
Eric

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## Jon

Cheers Eric.
It's certainly chilly here. -9 this morning and we have had temperatures as low as -14 this week.
Make sure you don't sprinkle too much Imidacloprid on your Christmas Pudding. We dont want to see you getting disorientated in the snow.

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## chris

> Make sure you don't sprinkle too much Imidacloprid on your Christmas Pudding.


Just a wee nanodram

Enjoy your family Eric

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