# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  What is the thinking behind the cubital index morphology ?

## greengumbo

Hi everyone,

Where does the cubital index / discoidal shift identification of Amm stem from ? Is there any genetic supporting evidence ?

Cheers

GG

----------


## Jon

Hi GG

It is based on wings from historic samples such as the York viking dig where lots of bee wings were found, and on wings from museum collections such as the Linnean collection. The CI and DS values on these wings are taken as a standard.

There is also an isolated AMM population in Tasmania which originated in the UK and has had no contact with other bees for a couple of centuries.
the wings of these ones correspond to classic AMM morphometric values.

there is also a paper by Annette Jensen which is worth looking at

DNA evidence is scant but there are likely to be some further publications this year on the subject from a PHD student at Leeds University.

----------


## Jimbo

Jon is correct the values are based on historic samples prior to any bees being imported into the UK. I have measured wings from colonies from the Tasmanian bees (Andrew Abrahams wrote an interesting article in the Scottish Beekeepers a few months ago about them). I have also measured the wings from Andrews bees on Colonsay which have had DNA analysis done on them.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... there is also a paper by Annette Jensen which is worth looking at ...


What does 'introgress' mean, Jon?  Wikipedia tells me it is the gene flow from one specie to another - but then I don't understand why the authors say that the bees on that Danish Island where Amm is protected by law is the 'most introgressed':




> The most introgressed population was found on the Danish Island of Læsø, which is the last remaining native Danish population of A. m. mellifera


I only read the introduction - so sorry about my lazy person's way of getting an answer.

Kitta

----------


## Jon

It's when you have some genetic material from one sub species of bee in a population of another sub species.
Different sub species of bee have characteristic 'markers' in their DNA which are unique to that particular sub species.
For example you could find evidence of ligustica DNA in a population of AMM or Carnica which would mean that at some point there had been interbreeding between the two races.
On the Danish island there are a number of beekeepers who keep Buckfast which ensures a lose lose situation for both camps as the bees will interbreed.

----------


## greengumbo

"DNA evidence is scant but there are likely to be some further publications this year on the subject from a PHD student at Leeds University"

Excellent. Its an interesting subject.

----------


## Jimbo

For information. I have sent a large number of samples for DNA analysis to Catherine in Leeds from Scottish colonies that had good wing morphometry results. This was not part of BIBBA project discovery but a request for further samples

----------


## Jon

This map shows some of the bees sampled in the Coop funded project.
These results show the result of wing morphometry, not DNA markers, and it should be stressed that the jury is still out as to how results like these will correlate with DNA when results become available.

Two of the 3 samples from NI are mine. although they put the circle over Derry instead of Belfast for some reason. Jimbo, that number 22 in the Rosneath area must be something to do with you!

----------


## gavin

> Two of the 3 samples from NI are mine. although they put the circle over Derry instead of Belfast for some reason.


That's nothing.  The coordinator of the EU proposal that has just gone in (not bees) made a map of the participant's organisations and we were put somewhere in S Yorkshire!

Interesting papers to come. 

G.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... On the Danish island there are a number of beekeepers who keep Buckfast which ensures a lose lose situation for both camps as the bees will interbreed.


Thanks Jon - so I understood the word correctly, but not the situation on that island.
Kitta

----------


## gavin

There's also a green (even Emerald) Isle to the west of us parts of which sound much the same.

----------


## Jon

That spat on BKF between people who want to keep Buckfast and those who are keeping our native bee is counterproductive as people can keep whatever race they want.
You need to convince people of the benefits rather than berating them.
The background population in Ireland, especially south of the border, is native bee, with some introgression from other races depending upon where you are.
Keeping Buckfast means you will have to requeen every year or practice II if you want to keep pure Buckfast rather than Buckfast crossed with native bee drones which is not a good idea.
With the native bee, you can get people working together in local breeding groups and have queens open mated with reasonable results.

----------


## brothermoo

> With the native bee, you can get people working together in local breeding groups and have queens open mated with reasonable results.


Whats the timescale for good open matings of a large area like belfast or a large town? 
I know we have the mating area at minnowburn and apideas at that site have proportionally more chance of good mating but at what stage do you think beekeepers get to the point of good open matings from their own gardens/apiaries?

__________________
sent via tapatalk

----------


## Jon

It's hard to say as there is likely to be more than one drone congregation in the area so different queens may fly to different DCAs and each one may have a different mix of drones. Some of mine mate above the apiary as well.
I have had a few mate from apideas in my garden with good results but my garden is only 1.3 miles from the association apiary at minnowburn and 2.6 miles from my main apiary at the allotments.
The best way is to take a long term view and try and get as many beekeepers as possible keeping the same type of bee.
The Galtee project has been running about 20 years now and I think they have about 1000 colonies of Good stock in the Valley so open mated queens should meet the right sort of drone.

There are other factors as well which are weather related.
AMM drones and virgin queens are supposed to fly in cooler weather so you may have more chance of avoiding yellow drones at times like this.
The caveat is that there is a lot of stuff written about bee races which is anecdotal rather than peer reviewed science so that has not been formally verified as far as I know.

last summer my bees kept producing drones all summer but others reported that their drones got chucked out in June when stores got low.

----------


## brothermoo

So its a long term vision then, I suppose it is easier done with more people on board! 

__________________
sent via tapatalk

----------


## Dark Bee

> There's also a green (even Emerald) Isle to the west of us parts of which sound much the same.


Yes indeed there is and in the interests of fairness please remember there is a splash of orange there too, which adds colour and balance. It is one of the last strongholds of AMM, but has Italians, Carniolans, Caucasians and Dutch in varying percentages thrown into the mix for good measure as well as the Fastbucks. Our esteemed contributor from Belfast is of course quite correct when he said that people can keep whichever bees they wish and that education and not coercion is the correct attitude to adopt. What I find incomprehensible is the attitude of those involved with the  Buckfast bees - have you read their webpages and seen the various posts of what presumably are minions eager to acquire some credibility. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  The pen is certainly mightier than the sword and if one cannot have a reasoned argument/discussion, then one has already lost.

----------


## Jon

The thing is if you keep a race which no-one else keeps in your area you will have to requeen almost every year as it will be impossible to rear pure race queens from open mating.
For beginners whose bees swarm and requeen themselves naturally this is a recipe for disaster as a gentle colony could end up very aggressive when it gets its new queen.
I think the Galtee group is a very good example for others to follow as a group of beekeepers is working towards a common goal of bee improvement in their local area.
You have to counter the propaganda as there are loads of Buckfast beekeepers who trot out the stale old propaganda about black bees being vicious. Mine aren't. Any pure race bees from a decent breeding programme should be fine to work with. It is the random crosses and the hybrids which cause all the problems.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Well it was a long wet Summer last year followed by a hard winter
High winter losses

If the theories are correct then the bee population should have veered back toward AMM
It would be a shame if the imports were to push the balance back before anyone has a chance to measure the changes

----------


## Jon

> Well it was a long wet Summer last year followed by a hard winter
> High winter losses
> 
> If the theories are correct then the bee population should have veered back toward AMM


The native bee people make that claim over and over but I'm not so sure about it.
Locally, the losses were bad irrespective of bee race.
I know people with yellow mongrels who lost the lot but I also know native bee people who had bad losses as well.
The main factor this year was colony size. Nucs and colonies understrength in the autumn had no chance.

----------


## gavin

Same in Scotland as far as I can make out.  The losses are more down to husbandry than anything. If you had Varroa properly under control, and had some autumn or late summer brood raising (location or feeding), and fed for the winter, and had top-up feed as required directly over the cluster, then the losses were moderate in full-sized colonies.  The small ones suffered badly.  Get any of that wrong and your colonies were toast, whether Amm-ish or Carnie-ish.  

There is one thing I'd really like to know.  Dark worker bees clearly fly in poorer weather than the S European types.  Was their queen mating (and drone flying) also better last summer when mating windows were very scarce?

----------


## Jon

I think my queens mated fine. They were laying decent pattern with no gaps and there was no sign of excess drone brood.
I would blame my own losses on other factors rather than poor queen mating. It is an easy cop out to say poor mated queen, had no chance.
varroa was not a big factor in my losses either. I blame sustained poor nutrition due to bad weather and early shutdown of brood rearing in the autumn. My colonies that I lost just ran out of bees. I saved a couple of queens from colonies which were down to apidea size and these are now roaring away and laying well having been caged and introduced to a couple of frames of bees and brood. That would suggest as well that poor mating was not the problem - just lack of bees. When you have poorly mated queens they try and supersede in August and September and that did not happen.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

You might be right Jon 
The bad weather windows might have led to mating nearer the apiary though.
The unusual thing I found was nearly all the colonies made it through but a couple became drone layers and another couple just didn't make any headway 
They are still around just small 
That's 5 out of 15 =1 dead(drone layer), 2 drone laying in Spring , 2 just no vigour
They are all queen issues one way or another

----------


## Jon

Drone Laying queens are extremely rare in my experience. I do get the odd one but mostly I just see it with queens which go stale after too long in the apidea and they start to lay drone after about 30 days.

----------


## gavin

I suspect that you try harder to get the drone part of the equation right than we do.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Drone laying queens seem to crop up in some years 2005 was the last one for me don't know why.

----------

