# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Making a difference?

## John M

As people with an abiding interest in honey bees we are all aware of the comment "the bees are in trouble." The intent of this thread is to inform you of a genuine attempt to do something which will contribute in a small way to improving that situation.  Most of us started by attending courses run by our local associations and if we were lucky we were able to buy a nuc there relatively cheaply or acquire a swarm.  But recently the price of nucs and hives has risen steeply and where do you go if you want to take your beekeeping to a larger scale?

For the last two years I have acted as beekeeping mentor and trainer to a young beekeeper who has decided she wants to make a career out of looking after bees. She is incredibly dedicated and very capable and has made a success of establishing her own series of apiaries.
She has come to realise that there is a lack of opportunity for others to gain experience of working full time with bees and is arranging to help two young people to learn by working with her for the summer.
She is also concerned at the cost to new beekeepers of getting their first hive and plans to work with her students to breed up to 50 nucs from her own colonies which will be sold at a very much lower price than that charged by the main dealers.  The nucs will be sold at the point where they require to be in a full hive body and a new poly hive is part of the package.

Some of you will be sceptical and worry that it is just a money making scheme.  All I can say is that you are wrong, it is the effort of a group of young enthusiasts to make a difference.  Providing food and accommodation for the trainees costs money and buying the new equipment to house the bees is expensive.  To defray some of those costs a crowdfunding site has been set up which explains the project in detail. You can access it at crowdfunder.co.uk/generationbee

If there is anything about this which you don't like don't just post a criticism, please e-mail golden.age.honey.crowd@gmail.com and we will try to answer your concerns.

If you think that these young people deserve support please consider making a pledge.  Spending a whole day working with full time beekeepers will give a hobbyist a new perspective on our craft.

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## Jon

I see from the link that it states 'The bee breeds are a mixture of black, carniolan and buckfast.'
It is a very bad idea to mix bee races if they are open mated as you are very likely to get bad tempered hybrids.
Ruttner has published a lot of work on the increased aggression you get when the different bee subspecies are crossed.
There are many areas in Scotland working hard to protect and promote the native bee, Apis mellifera mellifera and spreading about other races is likely to undermine this but maybe you have thought this through already.
It might be a good idea to link up with local associations as many of them run a discounted scheme for supplying beginner beekeepers with low cost nucs.
I agree with you that some suppliers are charging crazy prices and there is an industry geared around making up nucs with imported queens.

As an aside, bee colony numbers are not actually in decline in either the UK or Europe as a whole.

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## GRIZZLY

It'll be interesting to see what South of Scotland B.K.A. have to say about this venture.

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## Black Comb

I saw this on the other forum and also the endorsement from Murray et al.
I wonder of any of the "commercial" money the scottish government granted last year would be available to this venture?
As a matter of interest, what is the proposed price for these nucs. to beginners?

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## Jon

From the website




> Together they will work on the mature hives and generate 50 new colonies in the new affordable hives which will be sold for £225 to schools and beginners, significantly less that commercially available equivalent.


The price is ok if that includes the hive.
My association provides bees for the beginners at £120 but that is bees only.
The nucs are headed by queens produced in our breeding programme.
You also get a lot of mentoring included in that price.

To be honest, this business does not seem to offer anything more than a decent association should offer and I would be a bit wary about the business being headed by a beekeeper with just 2 years experience.
One of the things I have been banging on about for years is the number of people who are getting into beekeeping who don't have the skills to sort out routine bee problems especially those associated with aggressive colonies.
Black* carnica* Buckfast on the same page as 'supplied to schools and beginners' would fill me with dread.

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## busybeephilip

Its a great business idea and should benefit the generation of emerging beginners that seek a ready available supply of bees already hived.  The price seems reasonable, but as has been pointed out many times, prices for 5 frame nucs can be excessive - just look at some of the well known bee suppliers.   As  pointed out above,  if the apairys that are being used to rear queens and with open mating are indeed of mixed race then I would be very reluctant to supply these to beginners never mind schools.  Its very well documented that some racial mixes produce an extremely aggressive defensive bee

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## Little_John

> As people with an abiding interest in honey bees we are all aware of the comment "the bees are in trouble." The intent of this thread is to inform you of a genuine attempt to do something which will contribute in a small way to improving that situation.


" ... contribute in a small way to improving that situation. " I wonder.

Your solution to "The bees are in trouble" is to facilitate the keeping of more bees. Whilst - prima facie - that may seem like a good idea, it might be useful to examine exactly WHY bee colony numbers are in decline.

Apart from the widespread use of insecticides, one other major contributing factor to the reduction of the number of colonies being kept within the UK is the significant reduction in nectar-bearing forage available to bees throughout the season. This is due to many factors: modern farming practices; modern society's intolerance of 'weeds' within the domestic environment; the road verge mowing policies of local councils, and so on ...

The huge irony here, is that an increase in bee colony numbers into an already depleted foraging scenario will only serve to make matters even worse.

If you really want to make a difference, then I suggest you could do a lot worse than engage in a compaign to encourage the growing of an array of nectar-bearing plants to provide forage right throughout the season, both in suburban and in rural areas.

'best
LJ

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## Jon

> " 
> 
> Your solution to "The bees are in trouble" is to facilitate the keeping of more bees. Whilst - prima facie - that may seem like a good idea, it might be useful to examine exactly WHY bee colony numbers are in decline.


Honeybee colonies are apparently not in decline!
There seem to be far more issues with bumbles, solitary bees and other pollinators.




> although honeybee stocks have suffered severe declines in many parts of Europe, due largely to the spread of parasites and rising beekeeping costs they remain more resilient to habitat and resource declines than wild pollinators





> Total Stocks, Area and Demand Total honeybee stocks across the 41 countries rose by 7% between 2005 and 2010 from 22.5 M colonies to 24.1 M colonies


Breeze et al Feb 2014

I agree with you that one of the the best things we can do is to create and improve habitat for bees.

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## fatshark

> The price seems reasonable, but as has been pointed out many times, prices for 5 frame nucs can be excessive - just look at some of the well known bee suppliers.


But these well known suppliers - almost without exception - sell out pretty early in the season. The reality is that the price of 5 frame nucs appears excessive *to those of us who know what is involved in producing them*. The demand in April, May and early June is very high. Like Jon, our association keeps prices to our trainees pretty competitive. It was about £110 last year (usually with the loan of the nuc until they can be hived), again with a lot of mentoring provided.

In my view the mentoring is almost as valuable as the colony … and that appears to be missing in this business venture. Who will provide this? If it's the association the beginners trained in - and credit for only supplying to trained beginners - then this exercise is possibly taking nuc sales away from the association, but leaving them with the responsibility for mentoring. 

On a related point, I feel that many associations could better organise their training, nuc provision and mentoring. Many try and train the maximum number possible. Perhaps a better way might be to train a smaller number with a more complete 'package' … with the nuc provision and mentoring built in. As someone routinely asked - as the season takes off - to mentor new trainees and provide them with nucs, it would help planning my own beekeeping year if I knew I was going to be supplying 10 nucs in late May, rather than finding this out in early March  :Frown:

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## Jon

> In my view the mentoring is almost as valuable as the colony … and that appears to be missing in this business venture. Who will provide this? If it's the association the beginners trained in - and credit for only supplying to trained beginners - then this exercise is possibly taking nuc sales away from the association, but leaving them with the responsibility for mentoring. (


That hit the nail on the head fatshark.
It is not hard to make nucs of bees.
It is not even that hard to make up a nuc headed by a queen grafted from quality stock.
The problem is that your average beginner needs loads of mentoring and reassurance and the best framework for this is a well thought out scheme run by a local beekeeping association.
Lots of BKAs are running courses geared towards the exams but very few have a good hands on practical beekeeping training and mentoring course for the beginners.
This is where the need lies imho as there are actually plenty of bee colonies in the UK.
Some of the commercial beekeepers and a lot of hobbyists were hammered in the winter of 2012-2013 but that was the worst winter most of us had ever experienced.
There were various reports last year about how London has become completely saturated with new beekeepers in an area where forage is limited.
The save the Whale/the bees are dying approach is not helpful as it is perpetuating a myth.

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## John M

Well, that has put the cat among the pigeons, I had not anticipated such a diverse response.  Can I start by saying that I agree with most of what has been said and would like to respond.  I have been running a large number of colonies of "Scottish mongrel" bees for something like 25 years and am well aware of temperament issues. I consider my bees to be perfectly manageable and have the less than desirable re-queening method of waiting for the bees to produce their own queen cells and splitting. (In other words I am selectively breeding a swarmy bee.)  It is a system which works for me but is not ideal. On two occasions in the past I brought in a small number of Carniolan queens which are more gentle and productive than my standard colonies and have not proved a problem in terms of temperament several generations on.
Last year, as a consequence of the heavy winter losses experienced all over I bought Buckfast packages both for myself and the SSBKA apiary.  They have proved to be perfect for the training apiary, their temperament is ideal.
How their outcrosses behave will need to be monitored carefully.

One of the points raised is that what Luisa is trying to do ought to be done by the local associations in their training apiaries.  Too right.  The problem is it is not being done enough to meet the need.  I am heavily involved in the SSBKA and last year was able to help to supply 50 of the Buckfast packages to members who had lost their bees at cost plus a £15 donation to the associations funds.  Members seem to be delighted and are asking for more this summer. 
So while in an ideal world the association would satisfy demand the reality is that there are potential beekeepers out there who cannot source their bees.
Then on to mentoring.  Absolutely essential.  The concerns about Luisa having limited experience are not unreasonable but you must remember that someone working with 20 to 30 hives a day, at least 5 days a week will see as much in a season as the average hobby beekeeper will see in a lifetime.  In two years she will have opened a hive perhaps 2000 times and there is not much more I can teach her.  However should she need it I am around to advise.
Fat Shark and jon make the point about the need for training and mentoring targeted at hands on practical beekeeping as well as focussing on exams.  I could not agree more.  The ssbka has many new recruits and finding mentors for them is a serious problem.
Finally on the issue of whether we need more bees.  We can interpret statistics to say what we want so I will just pick two points from Tom Breeze's paper for you to consider.
1.  The recommended number of honeybees required to provide crop pollination across Europe has risen 4.9 times as fast as honeybee stocks between 2005 and 2010
2.   The UK is 40th out of 41 European countries in its ability to meet that demand.  We did manage to beat Moldova but still we cannot meet even 25% of the target.
Does that not justify needing more bees and beekeepers?

In conclusion, I hope you will agree her proposal has taken most of your concerns into account and you will be able to offer her some encouragement.

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## Jon

As far as I can see all the bee subspecies and Buckfast are gentle when properly managed and crossed within strain.
The problems arise when you get a different subspecies parachuted into an area where another subspecies predominates.
How does this project address this issue?
I have regular problems with beginners in my area who buy bees via one or other of the English mail order companies who plonk Carnica or Buckfast colonies near a mating site.
As they are beginners they are usually completely unaware of hybridisation issues and the damage this can do to a breeding project. For most of them 'bees are bees' and they are unaware that there are even different subspecies.
You cannot unhybridise bees once they have crossed and we are losing all the subspecies diversity in the honeybee population due to the proliferation of Ligustica, carnica and Buckfast at the expense of native strains worldwide.
From the text on the website this project is likely to contribute to that problem.
I don't think we are short of bees in the UK or Ireland although there is certainly a big demand for bees at the moment as beekeeping has become a trendy pursuit. The breeze paper I linked to was specifically looking at supply and demand re. pollination of certain crops but unless bees are moved from crop to crop most only provide pollen and nectar for 2 or 3 weeks of the season. Oil seed rape can take 4 colonies per acre  but what happens after flowering is over?

edit. by bee supspecies I mean just European honeybee subspecies

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## Jon

This paper is worth a read.

Biodiversity, conservation and current threats to European honeybees

Pilar De la Rúa, Rodolfo Jaffé, Raffaele Dall’Olio, Irene Muñoz, José Serrano




> Abstract – Europe harbours several endemic honeybee (Apis mellifera) subspecies. Yet the distribution of these subspecies is nowadays also much inﬂuenced by beekeeping activities. Large scale migratory bee- keeping and trade in queens, coupled with the promiscuous mating system of honeybees, have exposed native European honeybees to increasing introgressive hybridization with managed non-native subspecies, which may lead to the loss of valuable combinations of traits shaped by natural selection. Other threats to European honeybees are factors that have caused a progressive decline in A. mellifera throughout the world in recent years, leading to large economic losses and jeopardizing ecosystem functioning. We review the biodiversity of European honeybees and summarize the management and conservation strategies employed by diﬀerent countries. A comprehensive picture of the beekeeping industry in Europe is also provided. Finally we evaluate the potential threats aﬀecting the biodiversity of European honeybee populations and provide some perspectives for future research.

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## busybeephilip

Mating sites can be a problem esp when there is secretive beekeepers who have hidden apairies near your mating apairy who use a differenct race to yourself.  I am quite lucky as my mating area is surrounded by my own other apairy sites so I am able to concentrate the area with the drones I want so outnumbering the undesirables.  This year I'l  be back to using II as I have identified "good" breeding stock to use

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## Mellifera Crofter

Apart from the misgivings already mentioned about this project and Luisa's inexperience (two years, despite handling many hives, are not enough - she has, in effect, only experienced one season), what I also find disturbing is that she is using people's concern about the bees to ask for money, and to ask volunteers not only to provide her with a season's worth of free labour, but even pay her for that.  It is, after all, her own business:




> However she realised that the cost of taking on volunteers (detailed below) are too much for her fledgling business.


Kitta

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## GRIZZLY

John M -are you the beekeeper I know from just to the N of Dumfries ?  the one I had some Swienty hives from . Grizz (johna)

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## Jon

> It is, after all, her own business:
> Kitta


I have no objection to someone making a bob or two from beekeeping and I think the proposed price is fair.
My objections would be centered on lack of mentoring and the lack of thought with regard to bee races and where they are likely to end up.
The project seems to be more about producing bees than it is about education.
A few years ago one of the English companies was shipping nucs headed by Carnica queens into varroa free AMM areas in the North of Scotland.
Whilst not illegal, that was a quite unethical thing to do and again, the beginners who ordered the nucs were unaware of the devastation this can cause.
I remember a certain Gavin being very annoyed about it.
The project seems to me to have more of a beefarmer approach to it where the overriding factor is getting bees in boxes from whatever source as opposed to beekeepers working together to improve the quality of bees in their area - without stirring up the genepool with imports every year.
When there were huge losses in the winter of 2012-2013 the beefarmers argued that economic interests trumped every other consideration. They got subsidies to fill the boxes with non native bees sourced from all over the place. I lost about 20 nucs that same winter and I spent last summer building back up from native stock as opposed to looking for a quick fix. I can perfectly understand the need for beefarmers to make a living but there is a bigger picture and collateral damage on occasion if you happen to be working with native stock and trying to improve the local bees.
I know this must all seem negative to those involved with the initiative, but it is a completely different vision of bee improvement from the one I have.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I have no objection to someone making a bob or two from beekeeping and I think the proposed price is fair.  My objections would be centered on lack of mentoring and the lack of thought with regard to bee races  ...


Neither do I, Jon.  Earning money from my bees was my intention when I got my first hive - but I did not ask anybody to fund me because of the 'Crisis of the Honey bee'.  She is running a business and is using the 'crisis of the honey bees' to fund it.  I feel a similar annoyance by people going on exotic holidays and then asking me to 'sponsor' their trip for this or that charity.

As for the proposed price - she does not say whether it is a nucleus or a full colony, neither what kind of hive apart from it being 'affordable'.  If it is a full colony in a Paynes hive, for example, then it would be about £50 cheaper than a Paynes colony of bees, but about the same or perhaps more expensive than what I sold bees for last year (the first few bobs I've earned from my bees - and I'm in my fifth year of keeping bees).

I fully agree with your concern about bee races issue and lack of mentoring.  When I got my first hive I was completely unaware about the importance of the native bee and could easily have fallen into the trap of buying bees from far afield.  I was just lucky that I got local bees almost immediately.  It is a worry that the beekeepers she is going to mentor won't be aware of that.

Kitta

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## Jon

From the link, I think the bees supplied are to be a full colony in a Poly Hive.

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## wee willy

Any address for this person ? Town will do! Thanx.
WW 


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## Pete L

> Any address for this person ? Town will do! Thanx.
> WW 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


From the link......If you like to contact me, you can do that in several ways:

Luisa Gonzales
49 Newall Terrace
DG1 1LL Dumfries

Phone: 07503 576861
Email: golden.age.honey@gmail.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/GoldenAgeHoney

For more information about the Generation Bee Crowdfunding Project contact golden.age.honey.crowd@gmail.com, call Louis on 07969832671, and look for us on Facebook and Twitter!

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## prakel

> Any address for this person ? Town will do! Thanx.
> WW 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Contact details can be found on her interesting (public) 'LinkedIn' profile.

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## drumgerry

I'm with Jon that we shouldn't be down on someone for trying to make a business out of their beekeeping.  I hope to do it in a small way myself once I get to grips with my II kit! What does concern me though (apart from the lack of experience of the person seeking crowd funding) is the lack of vision apparent in this project.  I'd have been much happier if this wasn't yet another attempt to produce any old strain bees for beginners who know no better.  Of course beginners are happy to get bees at a good price.  It's only further down the line once they have some experience under their belts that they might be more concerned that they've been supplied with Buckfasts/Carniolans/Italians etc instead of native bees.  If next winter is a harsh one (unlike the current one) it's a fair bet most of them will lose their reasonably priced bees.

One thing I think we also need to make clear is that not all nucs are the same and should not be priced as such.  An overwintered nuc in my opinion with a previous year's native and locally reared queen should command a much higher price than a mid-summer split with current year queen.  I think we really need to try harder to educate the buying public of the difference between the two.  Of course few/none of the commercial producers sell overwintered nucs as far as I can see.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I'm with Jon that we shouldn't be down on someone for trying to make a business out of their beekeeping.  ...


I'm sorry - you misunderstood me (and I assume you are referring to my post).  I'm absolutely not against her or anybody earning money from their bees.  I'm just a bit disturbed by the fact that she is asking the public to fund her business.  She is doing what many other beekeepers are doing (without asking the public to fund them) but they - or many of them - are probably far more mindful about the effect their practice might have on other bees in the area.

Kitta

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## drumgerry

Kitta  - I was more referring to what Jon said.  So maybe it referenced your post indirectly.  But it's a point I've heard made before in various forms.  It appears to me that there is a species of beekeeper (I'm in no way including you in this) who thinks they should have their bees or queens for free or for a sum which doesn't represent the effort involved in producing them.  I was only making the point that we could all be better at educating the beekeeping public about the costs and effort involved in producing their bees.

I haven't been on the crowd funding page for this project but isn't it the case that individual funders get something in return for their money?  In this case I expect it's a colony of bees in a hive.  So crowd funding as far as I understand it doesn't equate to "publicly funded" in the commonly used sense of the phrase.  

I agree that there appears to have been little thought given to the strain of bees used here and in my opinion it's a travesty that anyone would consider a large project like this using anything other than native/AMM bees.

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## crabbitdave

I did the beginners class at the same time as Louisa, and very nice person she was, but she did say at the time she had bought all hives form a guy and was paying him to mentor her because she wanted to have  500 hives and become a commercial beekeeper within two years, so it's not about helping beginners or the bee population of Scotland it's someone trying to make money there is a demand for nucs and people will exploit it for there own gain sadly  


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## drumgerry

General point here - not sure why selling bees and making a profit from it should be considered to be somehow vulgar.  Are bees somehow in a different category from other "livestock"?  We've all got to earn a living surely.

My disagreement with this project is with its lack of a long term vision not with the principle of selling bees to beginners at a reasonable price.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I haven't been on the crowd funding page for this project but isn't it the case that individual funders get something in return for their money?  In this case I expect it's a colony of bees in a hive.  So crowd funding as far as I understand it doesn't equate to "publicly funded" in the commonly used sense of the phrase.  ...


No Drumgerry - that would be called 'buying'.  She is asking for money to fund her own private business, and she is asking her 'trainees' to work for her for free.  Her reason for the request is the old story about the declining honey bee and that she will produce 50 colonies for sale - for sale - to new beekeepers.  

Kitta

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## crabbitdave

> General point here - not sure why selling bees and making a profit from it should be considered to be somehow vulgar.  Are bees somehow in a different category from other "livestock"?  We've all got to earn a living surely.
> 
> My disagreement with this project is with its lack of a long term vision not with the principle of selling bees to beginners at a reasonable price.


Your right everybody has the right to run a business, and there plenty out there charging very high prices for nucs, my point was more of them making out their doing it for the greater  good, instead of just saying we're going to be selling nuc's and hive and roping in some free labour to boot.


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## drumgerry

Fair enough!  Both of you!  I agree - the old sob story about the declining bees and using it to benefit yourself.  I know all about that old chestnut from a previous life in a beekeeping association from which I resigned over the issue.

I guess I just have a bit of a raw nerve about the snobbery/vulgarity thing to do with selling bees.  There is a bit of a thread running in certain beekeeping circles to do with that but clearly you two are not part of it.

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## gavin

OK folks, I've been a bit quiet on this thread (busy!) but feel I should contribute.

John, Luisa's mentor, is a fine fellow of the highest order.  I might strongly disagree with peppering D&G with Buckfast for beginners, but I know that he's generous with his time and has his heart in the right place. I would doubt very much indeed that he is charging Luisa for his time, and I know that he has donated apiary sites to her.  

Luisa herself has been immersed in the pro-importation attitude of some (not all!) of our bee farmers, but I understand that even so she is reluctant to continue with these strains and wants to convert them to something more local.  If she had joined us here on the forum (maybe she will yet!) she would be exposed to different views that might align better with her own preferences.  The attitude that I'm told she is showing is already better than many who sell nucs to hobbyists.  

I'm almost tempted to donate after all that!

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## drumgerry

I don't doubt your word that all involved are honourable people Gavin.  But you know I'm never going to to agree with a project which doesn't have the use of native bees as a central founding principle - I could be persuaded of its merits if  was stated that the use of native bees was a strong objective which could be worked towards.  

Maybe Luisa could come on here and we could all persuade her that the pro-importation bee farmers have got it wrong!  Sounds like she has an open mind at least which is good.

But the "let's save the honeybees" line has to be dropped by all who use and misuse it in my opinion.

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## Jon

> But the "let's save the honeybees" line has to be dropped by all who use and misuse it in my opinion.


Well said Gerry. About 50% of the talk I have to do on Friday is going to be looking at the use and misuse of that line.
Gavin will be in the audience so he can report back in due course.

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## John M

Right first time.  Does that make it better or worse?
Being new to this medium I find the way some people misunderstand and then criticise disappointing.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion but is it neccessary to assume that Luisa's primary motive is to make money?
A quick lesson in bee economics for this part of the world.
Over the years I have averaged 45lbs of honey per colony and I consider myself to be reasonably competent.  
With that in mind the practical minimum you need to make a simple living is about 200 hives so if you are starting from scratch you have to have at least £50,000 in the bank. That will get you the hives and a pretty basic vehicle but does not account for a honey house or extractor to cope with 4 tons of honey.  Buy your kit at Thorne's and it will cost nearer £100,000.

So what to do if you really want to make keeping bees your life but don't have that sort of reserves and are subject to a mentor who genuinely believes that there ought to be more bees around.  Dumfries and Galloway is 100 miles from Langholm to Stranraer but there can be no more than 1000 colonies in all that distance. That's 1 hive for every 6 sq. kilometres.  There is forage for much more and the honey is of excellent quality because we have virtually no OSR.
Which reminds me.  Luisa is out of the country at the moment so cannot contribute herself but I know her thinking well.  Her apiaries are for the most part 15 to 20 miles from my own and there are very few beekeepers in her area. Like some of you she is of a mind to focus on "local" bees and will be phasing out the alien blood.  One possibility is to sell her overwintered colonies with pure bred Buckfast queens of 2013 vintage.  That may tick some boxes?  Look at the video, they are cracking hives.

I got sidetracked there, some of you are critical of her for exploiting the poor trainees.  Yes, she needs their help but they will have a great time and learn a lot.  Similarly you suggest that her motivation is to profit from selling nucs.  If that were the case do you not think she might be better charging a higher price?
Those of you who still are not convinced, come and spend a day working with me.  She has tolerated two years of that and she knows how hard the work is but is still desperate to realise the dream.  Maybe the critics could cut her some slack?

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## drumgerry

Eloquently put John.  Luisa is clearly very lucky to have a champion in you.  

I have no problem with anyone wanting to make a career and business out of their beekeeping.  

I do think some of the issues that some people, including myself, have with Luisa's proposal are fair.  I think a lot of us are rather weary and cynical about the "let's save the bees" line.  I think that needs a major rethink by all who use it.  As to exploiting the poor volunteers I'm sure they're all capable of making their own decisions.  And regarding strain of bees you'll find few friends of the Buckfast on here.

What you describe in your neck of the woods as to colony density could equally apply to here in Speyside.  I would have no problem with an enterprising young person trying to make a beekeeping business work in this area if gone about in such a way as not to conflict with or undermine what the existing beekeepers are doing.  The problem is we live in a society with a free for all attitude to beekeeping and I would say there needs to be some regulation introduced to prevent for example imported colonies being brought in large quantities into areas whether seasonally or permanently.

Ps Kitta - I meant to say that I wonder if you're misunderstanding the concept of "crowd funding".  As I understand it you give some money to a crowd funded project, the project then can go ahead, and you get whatever it is your level of "donation" has purchased at the end of it all.  So really some way away from a straight "buying" scenario.  Used lots to fund new board game projects for example and I've even seen it used to generate funding for a company set up to build banjos in this country!

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## crabbitdave

Can I ask john m if he was paid by Louisa to mentor her ?


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## prakel

> Being new to this medium I find the way some people misunderstand and then criticise disappointing.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion but is it neccessary to assume that Luisa's primary motive is to make money?



I've no issue at all with someone trying to get on and do something productive. Good luck to her on that score because I'd rather see someone succeed than fail. But, I think that your comment regarding the way this project is being questioned here (and I imagine, on the beekeeping forum too) is a little unfair, you've chosen to try and promote a young beefarmer's business, no matter how altruistic her motives are, on beekeeping forum's. If you had chosen to present her project to a non beekeeping audience then she'd probably have received far less scrutiny and have had more chance of receiving the funding which she seeks. 

I think, really, the best thing would be for us all to hold off judging this project until Louisa reaches a country that has internet access so that she can reply herself.

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## Jon

I agree Prakel. I think the comments have been constructive and hopefully thought provoking and if I were in her shoes I would be looking to see if my business model could be improved upon. The opening statement on the thread, 'we are all aware of the comment the bees are in trouble,' was what kicked off a lot of the commentary as it is the kind of comment you would pitch at non beekeepers who assume all our bees are dying from CCD due to the sensationalist press coverage on the matter.
One thing I don't see mentioned is any consultation with ordinary beekeepers in the area or in the local associations. That would be useful to clear up any issues around bee subspecies and suchlike. I may be wrong but it looks like the vision has mainly been moulded by beefarmers and that, in my opinion, is not necessarily in the best interests of bees especially our native bee.

PS John, none of this is personal. This is how good bulletin boards work. Comment is generated without personal attack.

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## gavin

The 'bees are in trouble' thing is worth exploring in more detail so I've started a new thread here.

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## John M

I understand that none of this is personal so I take no offence.  I helped Luisa write the narrative of her appeal and the starting point comes from the fact that customers at the door and at markets repeatedly express that the concern that bees are in trouble. Looked after properly that is not the case but it is the public's perception. If you think about it she is more likely to raise funds from the wider public so we opened with that line but I then elected to explore bringing it to your attention with the idea that fellow beekeepers would be sympathetic.
To answer a couple of questions, Crabbit Dave.  Luisa has not and will not pay anything for the help I give her.
Jon, Re the local association.  I have been seriously involved with the South of Scotland Beekeepers Association for 25 years and have been on the committee for more years than I care to think.  I had a lot to do with getting our training apiary at the Barony College including helping to raise the funding for that.  This has led to a big increase in the number of members many of whom are beginners.  The SSBKA runs training for these, both in the classroom and at the apiary and is trying to rear nucs but as yet cannot meet the demand.
In addition many of our established members lost their bees last winter and I was able to help provide 50 top quality packages at cost plus a £15 donation to the Association.  The feedback on the packages is that of great satisfaction.
One or two of the members who side with yourselves on the local bee question have expressed astonishment at how good these bees have been - easy to handle and productive.  Sure you need to instal a pipeline to the syrup tank to keep them fed through the winter and that is a definite drawback but our chairman reported that throughout the whole of last summer only two of her students were stung and that was as a consequence of trapping the bee on the frame lug.
That is a long way to say that I think you will find the SSBKA are informed and supportive. 

From my side I accept the concerns expressed about mixing the races.  Again in the drafting we might have been more clear.  Luisa mentions black, carniolan and buckfast bees.  At present she has about half of her colonies derived from my stocks which were sourced from various parts of Scotland 20 years ago.  I do not describe these as AMM, they are the traditional dark mongrel bee. There is a tiny bit of carnie blood in them from a few queens I bought 5 and 10 years ago but that has led to an improvement rather than the other thing.  Beside these she has about half of her colonies as Buckfast bought last year.
Taking note of the concerns you raise it will be perfectly feasible to separate the two races into apiaries which are miles apart. She covers about 20 miles from one end to the other so I see no reason why the degree of gene mixing cannot be controlled.  When she gets back I will suggest that to her.
Finally I feel that exchanging ideas and opinions on a forum is a good idea, what I do find objectionable is that some posters make critical comments which question Luisa's motivation without taking the trouble to fully understand what is proposed.  In most cases other posters have pointed out their error and for that I am grateful.
When I decided to explore this world I had no idea how interesting it would be.  Mind you it does take a lot of time to keep up with developments.  I am leaving for the Bee Farmers Association annual conference in an hour or two and will not be back until Monday so will not be in a position to respond further 'til then.

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## Jon

Best wishes John. Gavin and myself will also be away all weekend at a bee conference.

Re the marketing:




> the starting point comes from the fact that customers at the door and at markets repeatedly express that the concern that bees are in trouble. Looked after properly that is not the case but it is the public's perception. If you think about it she is more likely to raise funds from the wider public so we opened with that line


I work for a charity and it is obvious that you can raise more money by using photos of malnourished children with a tear running down the cheek being comforted by a concerned (white) charity worker. The public buy into this but in the long term it is unhelpful as it promotes an image of dependency rather than something positive. The more progressive charities such as Oxfam have clear policies about the language and images they use to fundraise.

I think that as beekeepers we need to try and educate the general public rather than feeding into the daft scare stories published by the Daily Mail and others. 
It becomes a self perpetuating load of nonsense - often accompanied by the 'Einstein quotation' about mankind only having 4 more years left to live once all the bees are gone.

The tail should not be wagging the dog re this issue.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... John, Luisa's mentor, is a fine fellow of the highest order. ...


Gavin, nobody questioned John's motives or criticised him in any way - nor even did anybody question Luisa's motives.




> ... Being new to this medium I find the way some people misunderstand and then criticise disappointing. ...


John, what had been misunderstood and then been criticised on the basis of this misunderstanding?




> ... With that in mind the practical minimum you need to make a simple living is about 200 hives so if you are starting from scratch you have to have at least £50,000 in the bank. ... 
> So what to do if you really want to make keeping bees your life but don't have that sort of reserves ...?


Yes, what do you do?  Luisa's solution was to ask people to fund her own business.




> ... some of you are critical of her for exploiting the poor trainees ...


I never used the word 'exploiting', John, and I don't think anybody else did, either.  I'm sure the trainees will benefit from the experience.  My point was that she was using the training of new beekeepers (by them working for her for free) just as she used the 'declining honey bees' story as a reason for funding her.  She is running a business and needs help.  It's fine to ask trainees to work for free in exchange for learning a trade - but I'm not sure about asking others to fund this.




> ... Ps Kitta - I meant to say that I wonder if you're misunderstanding the concept of "crowd funding".  As I understand it you give some money to a crowd funded project, the project then can go ahead, and you get whatever it is your level of "donation" has purchased at the end of it all.  So really some way away from a straight "buying" scenario. ...


Yes, I've had another look on that website.  I saw other people also asking for money to fund their own businesses.  However, the best and most prominent ones are group projects benefitting a community, not a private business.  As for the 'rewards' in Luisa's case - an angel's smile, recipes or how-to instructions.  The highest one is a day in the apiary.  The best one is two hours learning how to make candles.  It remains asking for money to fund your business.

The most important points about this are, however, what Jon (and others) made and I can't add to that.
Kitta

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## John M

In response to Jon at 10.35 (I have yet to master including a quote) have a glance at this.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vi...arn/73903.aspx

Even I think one of the figures is in error but if our Government thinks there is a problem it must be true.  ( Before you explode, my tongue is firmly in my cheek)

Mellifera Crofter,
I am already behind schedule for getting down south so cannot respond today. I feel strongly about some of the comments so may come back to you next week.

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## drumgerry

Those Scottish Government "facts" are heavily weighted by their dealings with and the experience of the Bee Farmers Association.  75% decline in bee colonies in 2013? - oh ffs come on!

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## Jon

John. You do the quote by selecting the reply with quote button at the bottom and deleting the text you don't want.

If you want to cut and paste from elsewhere you use the speech bubble button at the top right of the window you are typing in.

Nice to see the Scottish parliament include the fictitious Einstein quote!!
Wholly extinct indeed.
>Without pollination of crops, produce etc. by honey bees scientists predict that humankind will become wholly extinct within four years

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## Jon

> Those Scottish Government "facts" are heavily weighted by their dealings with and the experience of the Bee Farmers Association.  75% decline in bee colonies in 2013? - oh ffs come on!



One guy was left with 20 colonies out of about 2000 apparently.
I wonder why the beefarmers were hit the hardest.
Could it be that the boxes are filled with bees not suited to a wet northern climate?

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## drumgerry

Nail on the head there Jon!  Wonder what the scale of imports is or is going to be this year by the commercial guys.  Wasn't the lauded rescue package a two year deal?  

And another thing - should we take the mass deaths of southern European imports in a normal Scottish winter as being evidence of the "demise of the bees" and the end of life as we know it?!  I think you know my answer to that!

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## Adam

> One guy was left with 20 colonies out of about 2000 apparently.
> I wonder why the beefarmers were hit the hardest.
> Could it be that the boxes are filled with bees not suited to a wet northern climate?


And a relatively new beekeeper wants to make a career out of keeping bees with non-natives in Scotland?

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## gavin

> Those Scottish Government "facts" are heavily weighted by their dealings with and the experience of the Bee Farmers Association.  75% decline in bee colonies in 2013? - oh ffs come on!


It strikes me that these 'Facts' come from politicians in the Scottish Parliament being fed stuff from another 'Save the Bee' initiative (which itself is trying to do good, even if it is playing footloose and fancy free with the facts).  So not Bee Farmers but smaller scale bee enthusiasts.  The Scottish Government itself runs surveys and collects data - they would be more careful I think.

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## gavin

When the losses in 2012-13 were becoming apparent I asked Steve, the SG lead bee inspector, whether the losses were higher in any one type of bee.  We also discussed it on here.  Not in his view - there were high losses with some who had dark local mongrels and some who had carnie imports.




> One guy was left with 20 colonies out of about 2000 apparently.
> I wonder why the beefarmers were hit the hardest.
> Could it be that the boxes are filled with bees not suited to a wet northern climate?


In the case you're thinking of (perhaps - the numbers aren't quite right) my impression - from hearing some things and seeing where the bees were - was that poor forage and poor bee management were to blame for such catastrophic losses.  Others who I respect said that they did not think that there was an obvious cause (apart from the poor previous summer and the long hard winter I mean).  All I know is that hobbyists in the same area had losses but not catastrophic losses, and generally weak colonies in spring.   

There were probably factors that we don't understand.  That spring my bees were of acceptable vigour and raised drones at the usual time yet those of Murray around me were very weak and late to make drones.  I regard him as a better beekeeper than me, and I don't think his stocks differed much genetically from mine.

So yes, soft southern bees need more food, but high losses do not always equate with strain.  Varroa control, appropriate feeding, and semi-decent forage tops everything else.  Beyond that there may still be factors we do not understand.  Maybe.  However the SG presented data at a recent conference that shows a very strong correlation between an estimate of summer apiary Varroa count with winter losses in their random apiary survey.

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## gavin

> And a relatively new beekeeper wants to make a career out of keeping bees with non-natives in Scotland?


If you are talking about Luisa it sounds like she doesn't want to keep Buckfast but to convert to a local type which has a fair proportion of native in it.

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## snimmo243

I've read this thread with interest and there two main points about this scheme that jump out me.
Firstly I don't know John or Luisa so can'y comment either way on their beekeeping knowledge or skills, however I do question whether two years experience is enough to then be in a position to provide training to new beekeepers. I accept that two years on the scale that has been mentioned will expose you to a lot of bee handling but I'm not convinced that will cover all scenarios. Ive been keeping bees for 5 or 6 years now (as a hobbyist) and even although I've only ever had 2 colonies I've seen quite a lot of different things over those 6 years and learned a lot of lessons. It took me this long to feel confident enough to sit the Basic Beemaster exam. To summarise this point I question whether 2 years experience is enough!
My Second, and for me, more concerning point is the proportion of crowd funding that is going towards the "apprentices". £400 per month for food and lodging but no wages? This is a disgrace, too often rural jobs are underpaid (in this case not paid) and the usual "doing it for the love of it" "ah but your house is part of the job" "it's a vocation" etc are used to justify poverty pay. If this is to be a business and they are expanding to the point where they need extra labour, be this experienced or trainee, then they should be paying them accordingly! It is not acceptable, in my opinion, to exploit an individual's desire to learn a hobby/craft to gain free labour. If you are running training courses as a business then charge accordingly, if you are a commercial beekeeper then pay accordingly! I certainly won't be funding this project.
If Luisa wants to build a beekeeping business then I suggest she reads some of David Cramp's books.
Steven

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## GRIZZLY

Snimmo243 -  you seem to be quite insulting to John M who is successful and  well  respected bee farmer.  If he has passed on his knowledge and experience to Luisa for two years then she will have gained more experience concerning beekeeping than most of us manage in a score of years. He has also put his hand into his own pocket to fund and support  his local association with bees when they needed colonies/queens for their teaching apiary. Please research your facts before condemning someone who has the good of beekeeping at heart.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Grizz, Steven said nothing about John and I'm sure he didn't mean to insult him. If Luisa had the privilege to be taught by John then she is probably well informed.  Her experience or lack thereof was only a minor problem and does not involve John. The real problem with her request for funding lies elsewhere (and I'm not going to go through all that again!).
Kitta

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## Calum

Hi
my two  cents:
local bees pure bred are the only way to go really. Everything esle is just inefficient- naughty bees make beekeepers work - not acceptable if you are commercial.

www.workaway.info/ for people who will work for free and love you for it.

the 100k quote for starting up- an interesting number, and totally out of the air (not wanting to use an expletive).
Radial extractor 2k, decapping using a heat gun (the rest is buckets mostly)... The rest of the cost is frames (200*30) foundation (there are methods for saving money there too) and housing...:
Get decent plans, a saw (RYOBI ETS1526HG, 1500Watt under 200gdp) a decent drill and a good wood merchant- we worked out we make Zander hives (bottom , three magazines & lid) for 15 pounds a hive.

So apart from a shed+ transport for extracting if you cant get of the ground for 15000 something is wrong with your math. 

Good luck, I would recommend natural growth, start with 50 and go from there... but learn to breed queens first- they are the foundation of everything else!
-Learn the cell transfer technique, and make good money selling quality queens additionally.
Bests
Calum

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## snimmo243

Thanks Kitta
I clearly stated at the start of my post that I can't comment on the knowledge of the individuals and accept the quantitative difference in experience at that level, I also didn't question anyone's commitment yo beekeeping. As a trade unionist and someone who has been employed in rural trades I raised concerns about the funding of apprentices, that appear to be working for free. 

Sent from my C5303 using Tapatalk

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## John M

I have just returned from the Bee Farmers Conference down in England and am fascinated by some of the comments.  Clearly I live in a different world to one or two of you. I have tried to give a rational explanation to earlier comments and Gavin and others have been kind enough to weigh in with positive observations but frankly there is more to life than trying to convince others when their opinions are so firmly entrenched.
Those of you who disagree with me, come to Dumfries and have a cup of tea.  We can try to explore our different views.  My e mail is johnmellishoney@gmail.com
Crowdfunding is probably not a suitable subject for debate on this forum.   Where the comments have been constructive we will try to take them into account.

Thanks for the experience and wishing you all the best for the coming season,
John

P.S.  I am wary about counting chickens but the rate of winter losses up to last week was 2%, hardly the Armageddon that some of you predict.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...Being new to this medium I find the way some people misunderstand and then criticise disappointing.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion but is it neccessary to assume that Luisa's primary motive is to make money? ...





> ... Clearly I live in a different world to one or two of you. ... but frankly there is more to life than trying to convince others when their opinions are so firmly entrenched.
>  ... We can try to explore our different views.  ... Crowdfunding is probably not a suitable subject for debate on this forum.   Where the comments have been constructive we will try to take them into account.
>  ...


John, as far as I can see nobody has criticised you or said or implied anything critical about you.  I think I've said this before!  You are in the position of spokesperson because, as Jon said, you brought Luisa's request for funding under our attention.

You're right - you've answered misgivings about bees, expertise, and training.  So all that's left is my contribution: I pointed out that we're not talking about a charity, but about a private person asking for money to fund her own private business.  That shocked me because, regardless of her good intentions, it is still just a business like many other beekeepers' businesses.  So maybe I do live in a different world.  I find the idea of 'rewarding' the giver quite strange as well.  Normally one says 'thank you' when you're given something.  You don't 'reward' the person - but that's Crowdfunding's terminology.

So now I'm left feeling a bit sad and confused by your posts.  You said there are misunderstandings, but did not explain what they were; you say some of us are 'entrenched' in our opinions - but again do not explain; and then you invite us to privately discuss our differences - which is what?  And who are you talking about?

(PS: Luisa isn't the first beekeeper to ask the public for money.  I've discovered there was at least one other person who had done that and successfully asked for £3,000 to fund 20 new hives giving reasons such as the winter's losses and that more bees means more flowers, food and so on.  My feeling is that this person is a complete novice and that he won't be able to honour all his promises of honey.  He only received his second colony in September last year.  But then again, I might be completely wrong.)

Kitta

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## drumgerry

2% losses would be what I'd expect Buckfast, AMM, Carniolan or whatever in a winter such as we've just experienced John.  Doesn't really make the case for non-native strains as far as I'm concerned.  And weren't the bee farmers complaining of a bee armageddon this time last year after a somewhat harder winter?  It's the harder winters that are the proof of the pudding when it comes to bee strains.

I don't have an issue with crowd funding per se.  Nobody's forcing anyone to put their hands in their pockets.

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## Pete L

> It's the harder winters that are the proof of the pudding when it comes to bee strains.


 I agree, Gerry and have found the Anatolian to be one of these very hardy strains.

A Quote from BA.
         One thing he mentions is that the Anatolians seem superior to all other races as far as wintering goes, and in the cold winter of 1962/63 the coldest in the south west of England since 1750, he wintered nuclei of pure central Anatolian bees, up in the middle of Dartmoor, in nucs with only four combs with complete success,a feat which seemed scarcely possible.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I don't have an issue with crowd funding per se.  Nobody's forcing anyone to put their hands in their pockets.


True.
K

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## John M

I had not intended to continue contributing but perhaps Kitta deserves a reply.  I have read through all of the contributions from the beginning and my concerns fall into two camps.  Folk making a critical comment or questioning something without taking the trouble to read the proposal frustrate me.  Questions about price, the nature of the hive and the colony have usually been answered by others and suggesting that the project is all about making money really gets to me.  I have made a summary of these but choose not to post them, if you doubt me, have a look again yourself.

Then somehow it is portrayed as being wrong to ask people's help and offer a small thank you in return.  There is no compulsion to contribute.  Are all of you actually breeding nucs for your own associations or helping with education?
I respect criticism from those that do because they know what is involved.
Again the fact that the trainees are not paid wages is considered to be exploitation.  They will gain a huge amount of very valuable experience and have known the whole picture from the start.  I tried to explain the economics of setting up a bee keeping enterprise and my figures were rubbished. It may be possible to construct a Zander hive for £15 but does that include the frames, foundation, QX, Feeder, not to mention the bees.  Building up from 50 hives over a number of years may be possible but what do you live on in the meantime.

Which brings me to the second point.  Gavin has started a new thread and this may be more appropriate for that place.
Bees in trouble, bees in decline, call it what you will.  The thing that matters to me is not the absolute number of hives or beekeepers, it is the fact that we apparently choose not to care whether we might benefit by having more.
Last week the consultation on insect pollinators was published and I urge you to read all of it including the supporting documents.  It expresses concern for our apparent inability to adequately pollinate those foodstuffs which benefit from insect pollination yet it focusses almost exclusively on wild pollinators.
The simple point is that if we have 716,000 hectares of OSR (DEFRA June 2013) the crop would be enhanced by about £169 million if it all received insect pollination in addition to the effect of the wind.(Table 3 on page 29 of "Status and value of pollinators and pollination services")  Canadian research says that 3 colonies per hectare provide significantly greater yield than 1.5 colonies per hectare.
I am not suggesting we suddenly need 2 million new colonies, simply that there is probably a case for an increase. I have done some work on seeing how to increase by 100.000 over 10 years.  The bees and hives are achievable but the additional beekeepers to look after them will be a real challenge.  This may go some way to explain why I think training is so important.
I don't know if that helps, I genuinely believe that what Luisa is trying to do will "make a difference"  I worry that it is but a drop in the ocean.

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## Pete L

> The bees and hives are achievable but the additional beekeepers to look after them will be a real challenge.  This may go some way to explain why I think training is so important.


Hi John, thank you for the work you have done towards getting the BF apprenticeship scheme up and running.

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## Jon

> The simple point is that if we have 716,000 hectares of OSR (DEFRA June 2013) the crop would be enhanced by about £169 million if it all received insect pollination in addition to the effect of the wind.(Table 3 on page 29 of "Status and value of pollinators and pollination services")  Canadian research says that 3 colonies per hectare provide significantly greater yield than 1.5 colonies per hectare.
> I am not suggesting we suddenly need 2 million new colonies, simply that there is probably a case for an increase.


Hi John
That is true and I think the yield goes up by something like 15% when OSR has the optimum number of pollinators.
There are a couple of problems on the horizon though.
1. The recent EU restriction on some pesticide products (neonics) used on OSR is very likely to lead to a significant reduction in the acerage planted.
That should become apparent within a couple of years.
2. The colonies will need a good source of forage right through the season not just at OSR time so would need to have access to other forage sources for the time when OSR is not flowering. A move to the heather late on might cover that in part.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I had not intended to continue contributing but perhaps Kitta deserves a reply.  ... my concerns fall into two camps.  Folk making a critical comment or questioning something without taking the trouble to read the proposal frustrate me.  ... suggesting that the project is all about making money really gets to me.  I have made a summary of these but choose not to post them, if you doubt me, have a look again yourself.
> 
> Then somehow it is portrayed as being wrong to ask people's help and offer a small thank you in return.  There is no compulsion to contribute.  ... Again the fact that the trainees are not paid wages is considered to be exploitation.  ...


Thank you for replying, John.

I'm sorry that I questioned the practice of asking the public to fund a personal project.  Drumgerry, and you in this post, put that practice in perspective and I accept that lots of people do that.  With Luisa's project I was initially taken aback because on first reading it appeared like an appeal for a charity which I then later realised it wasn't.

I included the free labour as part of my amazement because it seemed to me like asking for funding twice over.  As above, I'm sorry I pointed that out.  I understand that that's what people do on that website.  However, I never said or implied that she exploited her trainees.  I've used that practice myself, both as worker and as the person benefiting from that free work.  I think Steven's perspective is from a trade unionist point of view and he probably has seen that practice being exploited.  I know Luisa isn't exploiting anybody and that the trainees are happy to work there (as I would have been if I've had such an opportunity).  

You ask that people should read before criticising.  Please also do the same to posters here.  At no stage did I, or I think anybody else, suggest the proposal is all about making money or questioned Luisa's aims or sincerity.  

Kitta

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## Calum

> I tried to explain the economics of setting up a bee keeping enterprise and my figures were rubbished. It may be possible to construct a Zander hive for £15 but does that include the frames, foundation, QX, Feeder, not to mention the bees.  Building up from 50 hives over a number of years may be possible but what do you live on in the meantime.


Hi John M,
the work-away link I provided would supply people quite happy to do labour for free, so I did not just rubbish your figures.
Like I said a hive can be made for 15 Euros (+3000) (i listed what that entailed) frames with free labour are very cheap, but you can buy them bulk directly from Poland/Rumania for 30p a frame. +1800pounds
 Foundation - with free labour & water cooled press you need the wax - 3,70pounds a kilo, or less- or 7,50pounds a kilo whatever size you fancy (Goldimkerei Aulendorf). Half plates can be selectively used to take about >20% of the total cost of foundation. +3720pounds
Queen excluder was not included – plastic ones are less than a pound. (holtermann shop) +180pounds
Feeder - well you can buy something expensive if other people pay for it, most beekeepers I know get 5kg buckets from friendly fast food/hotels/restaurants (for mayo/ketchup/stock)- these make practical feeders that are placed in the super after the last crop is harvested. They take much less space than extra feeder boxes – so are rational. +0pounds
Starting with 30 colonies you would go easily to 200 in one year, if you are able to raise queens and don’t care about a honey crop- me & my two trainees went from start 20 to overwintered 80 colonies 2013-14 and we all have full time jobs and families!
So … still leaves 6000 pounds to spend on extractor and tools. (and shipping costs)
If you need specific quotations I am sure I can point you in the right directions.
So we are left with but what do you live on in the meantime? The same as now, but you have to work for it.
Best of luck
Calum

i.a. I calculated all this for 200 colonies (my assertation of 15000 needed to become commercial) - you want funding for 50... doable for 1500 pounds material costs, starting with 8-10 colonies + no need for the apprentices, as a weekend hobby. thats all spare change.

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## prakel

> I'm sorry that I questioned the practice of asking the public to fund a personal project.


I'm not sure that you or anyone else should feel a need to apologize for questioning the way this project is going to work, especially as the launch (with regards to promoting it on bekeeping forums) has coincided with Louisa being unable to comment herself due to being abroad. 

Overall, I think that her project is getting a fair hearing in her absence, no doubt because she has picked up the backing of various beefarmers. I doubt that a so called natural beekeeper with two years experience would receive an equal level of courtesy in their absence although I may yet get chance to be proven wrong on that one.

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## crabbitdave

Hi John the fact the trainees are not paid is a real problem for me, as there are 3 apprentices at my place of work and it takes them four years to achieve their advanced craft, should they work for free I think not, but then if they did work for free we could under cut our competitors, as you aim too, I think it disgusting the system is being abused in this way, anybody who does a fair days work should be paid !! Slave labour in the guise of education, which if my memory of you got bursary to achieve a real qualification, not someone trying to fast track their business of the backs of others .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Jon

Future of beekeeping in Dumfries at risk




> But the country needs people like John to be training large groups of people every year for things to change.
> 
> Hobby beekeepers have their place in the industry, but it's larger commercial farms that are needed to make a significant difference.


And there was me thinking that the associations do the bulk of the training

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## gavin

The 'significant difference' bit seemed to refer to bee numbers.

Perhaps 3,000 smaller-scale beekeepers in Scotland (rough guess) with about 3 colonies each on average?  9k.

Maybe 7k colonies between all the Scottish bee farmers (now that they've had time to absorb and propagate all those imports into their empty boxes!)?  (I do realise there are non-importing bee farmers ... and importing hobbyists .... ) 

The back of the envelope may vary.  Others may have different assumptions.  John?

So, roughly an equal contribution from the commercial and non-commercial sectors, but the commercial sector is better organised for crop pollination (and retail honey sale) and the hobbyists provide a more diffuse pollination service right across the country as well as craft-style local sales?

In other words a partnership is required, respecting the contributions and the sensitivities of all sides without jeopardising the viability of one or the other.

G.

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## Jon

> In other words a partnership is required, respecting the contributions and the sensitivities of all sides without jeopardising the viability of one or the other.
> G.


Yep. Both parties should respect each others objectives.
Trouble is a new disease brought in on an import will not limit itself to the bees of the beekeeper who brings it in.

----------


## drumgerry

The trouble is - there isn't  a sufficient regulatory framework in place to prevent the commercial self interest of the bee farmers riding roughshod over what the rest of us need.  When the back of the envelope suggests we have at least as great, if not a greater stake in Scotland's honeybee population.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Future of beekeeping in Dumfries at risk
> 
> ...


That link refers to a 'new scheme' that has been set up in Dumfries.  It is referring to Luisa's private beekeeping business because she also mentions it in the Update section of her Crowdfunding page.

Just as Luisa's website almost looks as though she is a charity - but isn't, that SKY article makes it almost look as though Luisa is supported by the Bee Farmers Association - but she isn't.  I find those almost-almost implications really bothering - or have I misunderstood something again?

Kitta

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## Jon

Journalists have an uncanny knack of misrepresenting anything to do with bees and beekeeping.

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## madasafish

> Journalists have an uncanny knack of misrepresenting anything to do with bees and beekeeping.


I think you are being unkind. Time pressure - on  new to them subject , space pressure to fit into few words - and the need to interact with an audience whose range of knowledge is from nil to very little and whose intelligence ranges from notalot to quite a bit  - means they have to write a lot of condensed stuff in a hurry..

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## Mellifera Crofter

Jon replied to my grumble which was kind in itself - and what he said is true, whatever the excuse. Perhaps they get away with it because they think their readers' knowledge only range from 'nil to very little'.

----------


## Jon

> I think you are being unkind. Time pressure - on  new to them subject , space pressure to fit into few words - and the need to interact with an audience whose range of knowledge is from nil to very little and whose intelligence ranges from notalot to quite a bit  - means they have to write a lot of condensed stuff in a hurry..


I disagree madasafish as the same nonsense get regurgitated from the local papers such as the Dumfries example right up to stuff in the national papers such as the Guardian and the Independent. Alison Benjamin who writes bee articles in the Guardian is the author of a book on bees 'A world without bees' so must have done a little research at some point. It is lazy journalism - just churning out the same old clichés 'the bees are dying' yada yada and at some point we often get the fictitious Einstein quotation. If you make your living from writing you need to check a few facts.

----------


## nemphlar

Alison Benjamin who writes bee articles in the Guardian is the author of a book on bees 'A world without bees' so must have done a little research at some point. 
I found that book in my Christmas stocking a few years ago, research! She never got off the couch.

----------


## Jon

> research! She never got off the couch.


I haven't read it. (yet) The title gives away the likely content and given that bee colony numbers are stable, in Europe anyway, I imagine it paints a picture of how the sky is about to fall.

----------


## Jon

Here is another fine example of someone trying to raise funds on the back of 'billions of bees dying!!!@

Compare and contrast:




> Right now, billions of bees are dying. Already, there are nowhere near enough honeybees in Europe to pollinate the crops, and in California -- the biggest food producer in the US -- beekeepers are losing 40% of their bees each year.





> Agricultural Policies Exacerbate Honeybee Pollination Service Supply-Demand Mismatches Across Europe
> Tom D. Breeze et al. 2014
> 
> Results
> Total Stocks, Area and Demand Total honeybee stocks across the 41 countries rose by 7% between 2005 and 2010 from 22.5 M colonies to 24.1 M colonies,


Science 1 Fundraisers 0.
Thankfully Pete has moved it to the twilight zone.

----------


## Trog

Is that the email that seems to have gone to every beekeeper in the country?

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## Jon

yep. pure nonsense. I hope the sky has not yet fallen on Mull. I am sure you can hardy wade your way through the billions of dead bees.

----------


## Trog

When you're my size, Jon, it's hard to avoid tripping over the piles of dead bees  :Wink:

----------


## snimmo243

I got that email as well. I don't know if you have heard but it seems that barley and hops are in serious decline! As part of a research project and in an attempt to halt this imminent catastrophe my wife and I will be visiting some local facilities at the weekend to support the recovery of these essential parts of our ecosystem by consuming copious amounts of beer. If you feel moved to support this noble cause all donations will be welcome just pm me, in return for your generous donation you will receive drunken ramblings via text, your answer phone or this forum

Sent from my C5303 using Tapatalk

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## Jon

crowd funding for pub crawls is the future.
All for a good cause.

----------


## Trog

This is getting serious!  Without the recycled beer in the compost heaps (Bob Flowerdew's favourite compost activator), gardeners will have insufficient resources to grow fruit n veg properly.  Which, given the 'fact' that there are not enough insects to pollinate same, is probably a Good Thing  :Wink:

----------


## Wmfd

Didn't Einstein say something about mankind becoming extinct when the recycled beer runs out?

My view of the quality of news stories where I know something about the topic leaves me very worried about the areas where I don't. 

David

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## gavin

> Didn't Einstein say something about mankind becoming extinct when the recycled beer runs out?


Now you're just taking the piss!

----------


## Wmfd

> Now you're just taking the piss!


 :Wink:   :Wink:

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## Jon

Luisa appears to have turned against the idea of commercial beefarming and is quoting Michael Bush!

----------


## EK.Bee

Well I agree with her when she suggests that the brood box honey should be left for the bees

You've got to feel sympathy for someone whose worked hard to build something up for four years & then comes to the realisation that she can't make it work long term

----------


## drumgerry

Oh good grief!  So her business has failed and she's read Michael Bush and from her perspective of four whole years of experience suddenly beekeeping isn't sustainable in Scotland?  Sorry but that's a load of old tosh.  Maybe it's less to do with beekeeping and more to do with her own practice of it.  Perhaps it's just that she has just experienced one of our bad summers after three ok ones.  And wasn't she trying to ply beginners with carnies and buckfasts at the beginning of this thread?  Talk about sustainable!

One point that does interest me - she describes commercial beekeeping practice as extracting every scrap of honey from the hives (brood frames included) and feeding them to make up the deficit.  Is that actually what goes on?  Not just supers?  

Good luck finding your "bee heros" - will they need to submit a CV and go through an interview first do you think before she lets them buy her colonies?

----------


## Jon

Be interesting to hear what John M has to say after all the help he gave her.
Too much focus on marketing and fundraising and not enough focus on beekeeping in this enterprise.
Got to be a first - pitching it from a commercial beekeeper perspective looking for crowd funding then reinventing yourself as a 'natural' beekeeper.

----------


## gavin

I feel more sympathy for her beekeeping mentor who put a lot of time and other resources into her apprenticeship (and no, it wasn't her dad .... ) to have this happen.  And those who funded her via crowdsourcing.  By the time she was seeking funding she must have known what the various practices were regarding honey take and feeding.




> One point that does interest me - she describes commercial beekeeping practice as extracting every scrap of honey from the hives (brood frames included) and feeding them to make up the deficit.  Is that actually what goes on?  Not just supers?


Some do, some don't.  I don't currently but is there a big welfare issue if you do?  OK, there is a likelihood that the honey may be contaminated by 'stuff' that is in or on the brood combs so it doesn't fit my business model, but other than that if you treat them well and replace comb so that they have plenty of stores for the winter does that damage them?   It is certainly tempting to try if the main part of your crop goes into the brood box during a late flurry at the heather as is happening this year.  What about those folk who let the bees run through deep boxes on the heather then take the frames around the brood nest where the stores sit.  Is that wrong if they are also fed then winter with lower losses than the great majority of beekeepers?

This morning Luisa posted this on Facebook.  I almost challenged her on that but decided not to bother.  Can't correct *everything* on the internet  :Smile: .

> The average professional harvest in Scotland is 20 kg, and by this I  mean, is all bees get by September. So the bees
> need 18 kg for them in  winter. I had 18 kg less of harvest than anyone else because I left  honey for the bees.

The 'anyone else' is a wrong sweeping statement that denigrates many beekeepers but hey-ho, see above.

----------


## gavin

> Be interesting to hear what John M has to say after all the help he gave her.
> Too much focus on marketing and fundraising and not enough focus on beekeeping in this enterprise.
> Got to be a first - pitching it from a commercial beekeeper perspective looking for crowd funding then reinventing yourself as a 'natural' beekeeper.


When we last talked he was still trying to help by encouraging her to be in touch with a naturally inclined  beekeeper who posts here in the hope that she wouldn't just throw in the towel.   The man deserves a medal.

----------


## EK.Bee

I can't imagine there are many who who raid the brood box so it's unhelpful to suggest that it's a widespread practice!
Good Propaganda for some though

----------


## gavin

I didn't view this video.  Are these Bee Heroes doing the re-wilding thing expected to use Scottish native stock only?

----------


## drumgerry

I watched it Gavin.  No mention of native bees.  

Interesting to hear of the raiding of the brood box practice.  Not something I would do as I don't have the facilities to extract brood frames and I'm not making my living from honey production and it's more convenient for me to leave them their stores in the brood box.  I do think they overwinter better on honey and I'm sure they benefit from the extra "goodness" it contains.  And I think maybe she is mixing up extracting full or at least partially full and capped brood frames of solely honey/pollen to extracting from those with an arc of honey/pollen and brood present.  I can't for the life of me imagine there's a commercial operator in this country in their right mind would do the latter - I could see that there would be a welfare argument if this was the practice to say nothing of the hygiene aspect.  Maybe I'm naive to think this though I don't know

----------


## prakel

When the op ends up taking this stance:




> Crowdfunding is probably not a suitable subject for debate on this forum.   Where the comments have been constructive we will try to take them into account.
> 
> Thanks for the experience and wishing you all the best for the coming season,
> John


and the woman he's trying to help never bothers to drop by and back him up:




> I've no issue at all with someone trying to get on and do something productive. Good luck to her on that score because I'd rather see someone succeed than fail. But...... 
> 
> *I think, really, the best thing would be for us all to hold off judging this project until Louisa reaches a country that has internet access so that she can reply herself.*


Is anyone surprised that it's ending like this?

----------


## alclosier

It's sad really to watch. Clearly she has become completely demoralised and this is the end result. She was according to a friend who was supplied honey by her flogging off her bees about 2 months ago. He reckoned she was going out of business as she was trying to change processes/techniques that already worked and be revolutionary in her approach to be 'organic'. He's not a beekeeper so his views on the subject were quite interesting.

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## Jon

Her lack of experience in taking on the running of a largish bee operation was highlighted right at the start of the thread and that has proved to be the case.
Anyone wanting to make a living off bees in the UK would need to factor in a couple of really bad summers into the business plan and the effect that has on cash flow.
I wonder what happened to the plan for nuc sales.

In the video she quoted Michael Bush quite a bit But MB has a day job in IT and his bees are a sideline hobby.

----------


## prakel

> In the video she quoted Michael Bush quite a bit But MB has a day job in IT and his bees are a sideline hobby.


He claims to be running something in the region of 200 colonies (which appears to be an average 'sideline' bee business in the US). 




> In the past few years I've changed most of how I keep bees. Most of it was to make it less work. I'm now keeping about two hundred hives with about the same work I used to put into four. Here are some of the things I've changed.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm


Maybe being the figurhead of a new movement is simply more appealing to Luisa? Watch out biobee, there's a new kid on the block  :Smile: .

----------


## Jon

And MB is a textboox example of a guy who makes beekeeping claims which no-one else can replicate.
Small cell as a varroa cure would be the most obvious case.

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## prakel

There's a lot of good common sense on his site, somewhat marred in my oppinion by those claims which Jon mentions and his my way or the highway approach on the forums. But, and I'm serious here, I'd love to be in the financial position and to have the time to attend his 'bee camp' just to see what he _is_ doing:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescamp.htm

----------


## Jon

Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of time for Michael Bush and his website is a great resource.
I doubt any amount of evidence could change his mind re. his current beliefs though.

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## prakel

> I doubt any amount of evidence could change his mind re. his current beliefs though


The quickest way to get anywhere with bees is to keep an open mind and be prepared to change if a genuinly better/easier method proves it's worth after fair trial. This of course is totally different to jacking something in because you've not done as well as forcast, and then promoting your new scheme (or 'movement') by denigrating those who are getting somewhere.

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## Jon

Would the Damascene conversion have happened if the business had been nicely profitable from the start? Hmmm.
And anyway in my opinion the jury is still out about whether 'natural' beekeeping is actually a more ethical way to keep bees given the typical rate of colony loss, questionable practices such as 'chop and crop' and the fact that the colony often has to struggle by with a massive mite load due to the baggage many practitioners have about any chemical treatment.

And there's the elephant in the room about being a so called natural beekeeper when you work with non native subspecies of bee.

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## alclosier

I think some of the more radical natural Beekeepers forget that honey bees have been farmed/domesticated for thousands of years. This I believe leads to some of the more bizaire comments on beekeeping.

Nb: I'm not against natural beekeeping, I just think it's not for me...

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## drumgerry

I disagree with even the term "natural" beekeeping.  It's like it's somehow better than standard, "un-natural" bekeeping.  Whereas in reality it's simply a different form and in my opinion, less responsible form of bee husbandry.

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## mbc

> I disagree with even the term "natural" beekeeping.  It's like it's somehow better than standard, "un-natural" bekeeping.  Whereas in reality it's simply a different form and in my opinion, less responsible form of bee husbandry.


Totally agree, mostly urban types who think they're more ecologically in tune than "conventional" beekeepers. Irritates me almost as much as the ones who don't want to harvest honey, so much more eco to leave it on the bees (=wasps once the bees have died from lack of varroa control) when 80% of honey consumed in the UK is imported, not!

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## alancooper

The development of this thread has been really interesting - initially beginner idealism and eventually old-hand realism. 

My first comment (contextual) has been prompted by Jon's "elephant in the room" post and Alclosier's  "farming and domesticating for thousands of years" post. We know that most of Europe is a culturally modified landscape - with some parts used/managed intensively for industry (high productivity agriculture and forestry) and some managed at low intensity (hobby farming and green urban). While there is not much most beeks can do about the landscape we work in or our individual circumstances, maintaining local bees adapted to local environments seems to be a wise long-term approach, whether we are working for profit or pleasure.

My second comment (after five years of beekeeping) is that unless a beginner wants to waste a lot of time, energy and money, good training in the science and practice of beekeeping is essential (even if you have a basic education in biology and the environment and buckets of enthusiasm).

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## SDM

> Totally agree, mostly urban types who think they're more ecologically in tune than "conventional" beekeepers. Irritates me almost as much as the ones who don't want to harvest honey, so much more eco to leave it on the bees (=wasps once the bees have died from lack of varroa control) when 80% of honey consumed in the UK is imported, not!


 Does anyone really think it's anything more than a marketing exercise ? It's rebranding at its worst. Someone will start an "eco bees" movement before long.

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## Greengage

This was an interesting thread maybe they should have read this to see how corwd funding works.
http://www.beeculture.com/it-takes-a-hive/

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## Emma

> Totally agree, mostly urban types who think they're more ecologically in tune than "conventional" beekeepers. Irritates me almost as much as the ones who don't want to harvest honey, so much more eco to leave it on the bees (=wasps once the bees have died from lack of varroa control) when 80% of honey consumed in the UK is imported, not!


Trouble is, 100% of the invert syrup consumed by my bees is imported. And I'm sure it's industrially farmed (which probably means a negative energy balance, & big impacts on ecosystems), & industrially processed (more energy, more impacts). And it's heavy: lots of energy is used to transport it. So I'm not convinced that using bees as a "syrup in, honey out" system really makes better ecological sense than my own (ever-distant) beekeeping goal, which is to leave the bees enough honey for their needs, but still have a surplus to harvest.
Substituting syrup for honey can make very good financial sense, of course, but that's a different goal.

----------


## Calluna4u

Its a widespread practice. 'Raid' is rather emotive though but the reasons are several. (One guy even referred to the practice as 'tomb raiding' showing that his opinion was that it is deadly to the bees. It aint.)

Top one for me is that it is our season for getting fresh brood combs drawn. A watered down version of the way its done in Scandinavia, where many beekeepers actually rehome them on ALL foundation at this time of year (mostly Norway and Denmark I believe, Calluna countries).

The role of the buried pollen is also greatly over played. Our bees at home now are carting the stuff home in large amounts and the new wax on the first of the fresh combs is well splattered with pollen cells, and the making of an arc is visible within a couple of days.

Then you come to economics. At the current price for invert syrup I am paying this year the feed is one fifteenth the price of the honey. One comb of honey pays for all the feeding you will need, and believe me, in many places this year the brood boxes are stuffed wall to wall and top to bottom with calluna honey.

Also...and there is various research to both support and deny this.......but from our experience it is a very clearly proven case......the bees winter far better on well ripened syrup and especially good invert syrup, than they do on heather honey. Far less dysentery. OK, so you get away with wintering on heather honey most years, but give us a long cold winter without bee flight for a couple of months or more then the proteins in the gut give  big problems when bees on 'clean' stores are fine. I remember seeing a German study from Bavaria about various types of winter feeding and it showed quite clearly that natural stores were the worst. Not clear exactly what these natural stores were floral origin wise, or even if there was honeydew involved, but the top wintering product out of the full range tested was Api-Invert, one of the best of the invert syrup feeds and one that is free of maltose.

As with everything, its all about proportionality and experience. You get to know what is the right and wrong thing to do, and where I disagree with many of these more 'natural' beekeepers is anthropomorphism. They have their own belief structure and for whatever reason have decided that the way they want to live is also the way their bees want to live. Bee health statistics would say different, but they turn that into a virtue by some slight of hand, interpreting it as natures way of eliminating unsuitable stock.


_Sorry, I must have pressed a wrong botton, as this is a response to EK Bee on the subject of nest raiding, and I thought I had quoted him._

----------


## Calluna4u

The product I THINK you get is made from beet sugar grown in northern Europe. Organic versions also available.

I have had a UK produced invert syrup and would not buy it again. Was cheaper but had real quality issues rendering it barely suitable for bees.

Strangely I am told that one of the brands of invert sold in France actually is made in the UK, but not sold here, unless you buy it from the French company it is made for. Both it and the UK syrup I trialled a few years back were starch derived, whereas the market leading bee feeds are relatively natural in their origin, being produced using locally produced beet sugar and are enzymatically inverted. Negative marketing by at least one vendor states other brands to be acid inverted and bee toxic, but this is just a fabrication to scare people into only buying their brand.


_Ditto previous post, in this case to Emma._

----------


## drumgerry

I think I perhaps used the term "raid" as well.  I wonder if you might clarify for me whether "raiding" is done just on brood frames of honey or whether it's also brood frames where brood and honey is present.  If nothing else the hygiene aspect would concern me were the second of these commonly carried out.

----------


## Calluna4u

> I think I perhaps used the term "raid" as well.  I wonder if you might clarify for me whether "raiding" is done just on brood frames of honey or whether it's also brood frames where brood and honey is present.  If nothing else the hygiene aspect would concern me were the second of these commonly carried out.


Honey combs only here, leaving the brood for hatching, but of course in Scandinavian system where ALL combs are replaced they must be removing brood too.

In our heather system all frames are potential brood frames and all are potential honey frames, as we prefer a deeps only system at the heather with no excluders. In September there is often brood elsewhere than the bottom box and some rearranging needs to be done.

----------


## drumgerry

I think your unlimited brood nest system would be how I'd operate if I was wanting to extract deep frames.  Interesting that you say honey combs only "here"  - does that imply there are other operators in this country who are extracting frames containing brood?  Or am I reading too much into it?  Not sure I'd be keen as a consumer on having larval fluid mixed in with my OSR or heather honey!

----------


## Calluna4u

> I think your unlimited brood nest system would be how I'd operate if I was wanting to extract deep frames.  Interesting that you say honey combs only "here"  - does that imply there are other operators in this country who are extracting frames containing brood?  Or am I reading too much into it?  Not sure I'd be keen as a consumer on having larval fluid mixed in with my OSR or heather honey!


Reading too much. I do not know exactly how others do it, but know it is quite common in many parts. I was not only talking about Scotland when I said its widespread. Also do not like the idea of brood going through the extractor, and even more so the loosener.

----------


## drumgerry

Yep I've seen some horrific videos of honey and brood all getting sliced off together.  Probably better for you like that!

----------


## Emma

> The product I THINK you get is made from beet sugar grown in northern Europe. Organic versions also available.
> 
> I have had a UK produced invert syrup and would not buy it again. Was cheaper but had real quality issues rendering it barely suitable for bees.
> 
> Strangely I am told that one of the brands of invert sold in France actually is made in the UK, but not sold here, unless you buy it from the French company it is made for. Both it and the UK syrup I trialled a few years back were starch derived, whereas the market leading bee feeds are relatively natural in their origin, being produced using locally produced beet sugar and are enzymatically inverted. Negative marketing by at least one vendor states other brands to be acid inverted and bee toxic, but this is just a fabrication to scare people into only buying their brand.
> 
> 
> _Ditto previous post, in this case to Emma._


Hmm, lots of factors to think about - very interesting, thanks! Sounds like I could almost certainly find lower impact syrup, then. Good: it's on my wishlist... tho' in practise I may carry on going for the cheapest price, provided the quality is good. My beekeeping costs enough as it is - mostly in time, but as a freelancer that translates very directly into lost money.

Just now I'm figuring out how to insulate my hives. See if I can just cut down their winter fuel bills, in future  :Smile:

----------


## Emma

> Also...and there is various research to both support and deny this.......but from our experience it is a very clearly proven case......the bees winter far better on well ripened syrup and especially good invert syrup, than they do on heather honey. Far less dysentery. OK, so you get away with wintering on heather honey most years, but give us a long cold winter without bee flight for a couple of months or more then the proteins in the gut give  big problems when bees on 'clean' stores are fine. I remember seeing a German study from Bavaria about various types of winter feeding and it showed quite clearly that natural stores were the worst. Not clear exactly what these natural stores were floral origin wise, or even if there was honeydew involved, but the top wintering product out of the full range tested was Api-Invert, one of the best of the invert syrup feeds and one that is free of maltose.
> 
> As with everything, its all about proportionality and experience. You get to know what is the right and wrong thing to do, and where I disagree with many of these more 'natural' beekeepers is anthropomorphism. They have their own belief structure and for whatever reason have decided that the way they want to live is also the way their bees want to live. Bee health statistics would say different, but they turn that into a virtue by some slight of hand, interpreting it as natures way of eliminating unsuitable stock.


Don't suppose you've got a reference for that Bavarian study? Or any more details I could track it down by? It's always good to have my core prejudices challenged  :Smile:   I certainly could see the difference in dysentery last winter, between a couple of hives I'd taken to the heather & the rest. The heather diet didn't stop them being my strongest colonies in the spring, though - the ones that stayed put in Fife all stopped laying in August, which seems to have made much more of a difference overall. But it was hardly a long, cold winter.

My non-beekeeping activities mean I meet natural beekeepers every now and then. Met a newbie recently who I think may become a very good beekeeper. But some of the others may never notice or learn very much at all about bees. One was lovingly feeding honey to her pets. Organic honey if she could find it, but, from the sound of it, otherwise whatever she could find in the shops. She'd never heard of foulbrood, but I think she may possibly have listened when I told her about it. Others assume that brown sugar is bound to be good for bees. I always do my best to dissuade them...

Having said that, I'm convinced that me & my bees have a lot in common. I'm completely obsessed by bees, and bee behaviour... & so are they  :Wink:

----------


## Emma

> Yep I've seen some horrific videos of honey and brood all getting sliced off together. Probably better for you like that!


Hmm, I don't think so. Honey is best raw, IMO, but brood is definitely better stir-fried. Wouldn't do to mix them  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Hmm, I don't think so. Honey is best raw, IMO, but brood is definitely better stir-fried. Wouldn't do to mix them


I've never had stir-fried honey-bee brood, but I've had stir-fried Mopane worms. No, actually just one. I did not ask for a second one.
Kitta

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## Emma

In seriousness, my favourite way to prepare bee grubs is to leave them in a hive being cuddled by bees for 3 weeks or so, then let them emerge to live a full life. And if I thought people were going to farm bees for grubs in the UK I'd probably join Luisa on the campaign trail.
But I'm quite into the idea of insect protein more generally. Very resource efficient. 
Mopane worms are big! (I had to google them, hadn't heard of them.) I've had roasted mealworms, much less daunting, & very tasty.

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## Jimbo

If you google value added products from beekeeping
This is a large document produced by the United Nations you will find a few recipes with pictures on how to prepare your bee grubs 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Emma

The FAO one? (http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076E/w0076e19.htm) It's been ages since I read that. I'd forgotten how much detail there was. I think I mostly read the advice on getting pupae/larvae out of cells. During my second season I did an awful lot of drone culling - and counted an awful lot of varroa mites - but none of the "get them out of the cells easily" methods worked for me. Admittedly I was trying to remove every last one, so I could count the mites accurately - I figured if I was going to kill the brood, I should at least learn as much as possible about what was  going on.
Never occurred to me to smoke them or pickle them in brandy, though...

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> Never occurred to me to smoke them or pickle them in brandy, though...


Now we know what to do with culled drone brood!  That was an interesting link, Jimbo.

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## John M

> Be interesting to hear what John M has to say after all the help he gave her.
> Too much focus on marketing and fundraising and not enough focus on beekeeping in this enterprise.
> Got to be a first - pitching it from a commercial beekeeper perspective looking for crowd funding then reinventing yourself as a 'natural' beekeeper.


I have only just become aware of this discussion and am sad that some of you feel able to criticise without any understanding of why she is choosing to do what she feels she needs to do.

First of all, her business model has worked, she successfully produced honey, increased her hive numbers and developed a market so that is not the reason for the change of direction.  She has worked really hard at it and could easily continue in the way the rest of the Scottish bee farmers do if that was what she chose to do.

Over time though she has become concerned about certain aspects of the way bees are kept and has done a huge amount of research into everything. Some of what she writes is perhaps affected by the fact that English is not her native language so she has given the impression that beefarming involves removing all of the honey in the hive.  This she never did and nor do any of the rest of us (to the best of my knowledge). See Calluna4U for details.

I have just taken off the last of my heather honey and find that some of the brood boxes are heavy and some are light. In my case that means they have access to a variable amount of honey but get topped up with sufficient ambrosia to achieve the weight I think they need for winter.
Luisa has physically weighed each of her hives and then used her "harvest" frames to top up the light ones.  In this, the worst season for years, she has had to use only a very small amount of ambrosia.  To me that is putting her money where her mouth is. Of course that means she has no income from this year's harvest and if she were to continue with that model she would expect very little even in a normal one. Of necessity therefore she will have to free up time to make a living and will not be able to look after 150 hives as well.  Hence the need to reduce numbers to a level she will be able to cope with.

I may not agree with all of the conclusions she has come to about artificial feeding and the effect of foraging on OSR but I very much respect the fact that she has thought deeply about it and done a lot of research which I perhaps prefer to ignore.

All I ask is that you do not rush to judgement and give credit to someone who genuinely cares about what she is trying to do.

John

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## gavin

Hi John

I have no doubt that Luisa cares about bees but I do have issues with the way she is reducing (exiting according to some of her statements) her commercial beekeeping.  Her call for 'heroes' to save the bees from being 'endangered' (by the 'very methods of modern beekeeping'), seeking people who would become a 'wild beekeeper' (apparently someone who has clean bee pasture and would follow the usual amateur practice of not raiding the brood box?) using bees they'd buy from her (yet those stocks are not native stock but are a Buckfast-Carnica-native mix), for a price of £300 per colony (while claiming the market value is £700 plus £100 of free tuition).  Not some accounting measure of potential worth but market value?

These are not claims that are legal, decent, honest, truthful.  Fair enough that her beliefs now mean that her business model is not currently viable, but she can't claim the things she's claiming unless she can prove that they are true.  It is misleading for her potential bee 'heroes' who will be coming into their new hobby without the background knowledge of most of us.  

Gavin

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## The Drone Ranger

I often read posts about how after a year of beekeeping someone plans to start commercial queen rearing
Sometimes it's raising nucleus hives for sale on a massive scale etc etc
Simultaneously saving the planet and the bees for (from) the rest of us 

My nephew bought a guitar, and despite not even being able to tune the thing, was convinced that within a year he would become the new Jimmy Page
He has owned it a few years now and can tune it reasonably well

Mostly it comes down to dreams, pipes, reality, dissolution , abandonment , moving on, new pipe, and then repeat till humble  
Perhaps it's just old age that makes me say nothing is ever as easy as it seems  :Smile:

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## gavin

Sage words.  Basil too.

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## mbc

Or ye gan o set up a commercial queen breeding operation yer sen Gav. Mint I suggest it's not a good thyme as its a bit chilli.

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## gavin

Certainly dinnae want tae get caraway, an' yir richt, ye haftae cumin fae the cold naw.  Be balmy to take it up noo, ye'd certainly rue it.  Quite some caper that commercial beekeeping. Thought it wid be anise thing to get intae in my later years.

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## Mellifera Crofter

It's thyme I learn the local lingo!  I might understand my neighbours better.

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## gavin

I'm an Edinburgh lad so the Doric is a mystery to me.  However someone has gone to all the trouble of putting several Doric teaching videos on YouTube if you are interested.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...92B0A51B931DF1

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## Jon

> within a year he would become the new Jimmy Page


The old Jimmy Page can still play anyway.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks for the Doric link, Gavin.  I'm going to try my best to impress my neighbours.  (So far, I've discovered I had horrible little moth mayvees in one of my hives.)
Kitta

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## wee willy

A Scotsman came to work in Lancashire ( Wigan area ) after working in New Zealand for years . 
He said " hell I didn't know the Doric was spoken here " after hearing the local dialect 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## EK.Bee

Read the ad in the SBA magazine
Seven inspections a year?

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## busybeephilip

BBC story on native bees

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-34710340

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Phillip
"The chocolate-coloured native dark bees are Varroa-free."
They say this as if it is due to some inherited quality of Amm rather than just their lack of contact with other bee populations
There must be one of these stories very week now clever marketing I suppose 

"The harvested eggs were put in small boxes which were then taped to the hands of apiarists to keep them warm"
As usual the person writing this hasn't a clue what they are talking about and there is hardly a single sensible sentence in the whole piece

Apologies to anyone reading this grumpy post 3 days of mist and rain hasn't helped

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Read the ad in the SBA magazine
> Seven inspections a year?


Yes, I saw that.  I think the magazine should run an article explaining how that can be done in a responsible and caring way.
Kitta

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## gavin

> Apologies to anyone reading this grumpy post 3 days of mist and rain hasn't helped


There's a wee keek of watery sunshine out there now - are you feeling better?  Sadly Jon just saw thick fog and mist (with a wee keek of sunshine in more northern parts) in his recent brief tour.

Didn't read the piece in the same way as you at all.  Even to the extent of the body parts used to keep the grafting material warm.

Let's celebrate the fact that SNH are now willing to countenance _Apis mellifera_ as an indigenous species worthy of attention.

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## gavin

> Read the ad in the SBA magazine
> Seven inspections a year?


That's a further misrepresentation, one missing from the list I gave above.  Such misleading adverts shouldn't be getting published.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi Phillip
> "The chocolate-coloured native dark bees are Varroa-free."
> They say this as if it is due to some inherited quality of Amm rather than just their lack of contact with other bee populations
> There must be one of these stories very week now clever marketing I suppose 
> 
> "The harvested eggs were put in small boxes which were then taped to the hands of apiarists to keep them warm"
> As usual the person writing this hasn't a clue what they are talking about and there is hardly a single sensible sentence in the whole piece
> 
> Apologies to anyone reading this grumpy post 3 days of mist and rain hasn't helped


Your probably right Gavin 
I think what they are trying to study is a population of bees who have not been attacked by varroa and compare the virus types that are found in those bees to the similar populations which have been varroa infested for years
Most journalists writing about bees only seem to hear what they want to though and just write rubbish

On Breakfast telly one day they had two experts in nutrition who happily pointed out that honey and sugar were the same because of their calorific content
Course I fired off an email pointing out that if a carrot and a banana had the same calorific content that doesn't mean they are the same thing
Partial truths and misinformation surrounding bees are just accepted along with spiritual healers working on a Quantum level etc (New age Mysticism)
It starts small and end up like this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18503550

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