# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  In the swing

## mbc

I feel I'm really getting in the swing of things now, just checked my fourth graft and found 47 out of 60 cells started satisfactorily, these were on three separate frames so two of them were transferred to two other cell finishing colonies, making three in total once the board was removed from the cloak board on the cell starter to make her in to a cell finisher.  By the time these cells are ready to go out (ten days from yesterday) the queens from my first two grafts (which I havent checked at all yet) should be ready for harvesting, and there should be no need to make up new mating nucs to house the new cells.  Deep joy  :Smile:

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## Jon

What date did your first virgins emerge?
I had 7 or 8 emerge on 12th May and I have about 25-30 out now in Apideas.
I am hopeful of getting a few mated before the end of May.

I have about 40 more cells started as well.
I am finding it variable this year as always.
I graft one day and get 18/22 starts and the next day it might be 2 starts.
I am using a queenless Payne polynuc to start cells which are then transferred into a queenright setup 24-48 hours later.
The queens I have seen so far look to be a reasonable size.

On Friday past I set up another Payne poly nuc and this one is a double with 6 more frames sitting in a triple eke above the nuc.
I reckon that one should be a good cell starter.
I have it loaded with sealed brood and a couple of pollen frames.

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## mbc

Monday 5th of May, three weeks are up tomorrow, so I allow myself to check them from now on.  I think I would waste most of my time checking nucs unnecessarily early if I didnt keep disciplined about it.

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## Jon

I bought a load more Apideas from swienty so I am going to discipline myself about checking as I don't have the time to be a tinkerman.
I am using a coloured pin system which lets me know what is in the apidea without having to take off the lid and look at the record sheet or worse still remove frames.

mmlzKgSRsCAQxnAdcNRZmeg.jpg

Yellow means has a queen cell
green means has a virgin
white means mated queen
red means queen missing and/or action needed
blue pin means too many/too few bees in it.

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## mbc

Lol. I too use coloured pins, very quick and easy apart from i havent found the ideal ,pocket sized, multi compartment dispensing box yet, so end up fiddling with little boxes and dropping pins etc.  If you have the solution please share  :Smile:

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## Jon

I just keep a tray of them at each site where I set out apideas.

The other thing I intend to trial is the Payne poly nuc as a mating nuc with just a single frame of bees and brood pushed against one of the walls with an insulated dummy frame.
Take a frame of sealed brood plus the adhering bees, place it in the nuc and add a ripe queen cell.
Keep closed until the virgin is out, same as with an apidea.
When the queen starts to lay a couple of weeks later all the brood will have emerged. You could then remove the frame and add another of sealed brood and two frames of drawn comb and you should have a  nuc with a laying queen and 3 frames well covered with bees a week later.

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## mbc

Mine are mostly in mini plus hives, but also apideas, kielers and split national brood boxes, they all work well and I'm looking forwards to seeing how successful they each are.  The mini plus were the easiest and cheapest in resources to set up as I'd overwintered a few so just needed to dismantle all the bees and brood from them in to lots of separate units.

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## Jon

I bought one mini plus in my order from Swienty so I will give it a go at some point.
How many of those do you work?
Do you use them as doubles or singles?

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## mbc

I run about 30 of them as doubles, but they're very flexible, if one side fails or you harvest a queen from one side they can easily be turned into a single, or visa versa with a prosperous single being divided back into a double.  I bet you couldnt guess that i like them.

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## Jon

Nothing against them but the Apidea works well for me and I got them for under £18 bulk buying from Swienty.

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## mbc

> Nothing against them but the Apidea works well for me and I got them for under £18 bulk buying from Swienty.


I got my kielers for about half that price.

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## Jon

I am not a fan of the Kielers apart from the price.
You pays your money etc...
When you consider the price of a queen and the fact that one unit can produce 2 or 3 in a season the efficiency of the equipment used has got to be the main thing.

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## mbc

Admittedly the apidea is a better quality bit of kit than the kieler, I've reinforced the entrances on my kielers with car body repair kit as my bees proved quite capable of chewing away the thin poly around the entrance.  The car body filler fix was done a couple of years ago though and seems to have done the trick.  One or two of my apideas are getting a bit long in the tooth too and need a little grass or some such to keep the bees blocked in at the bottom of the entrance.  Nothing lasts forever, though I have some seriously old cedar supers which are still going strong despite being antique.

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## Jon

If you do the math, an apidea bought at £18 used for 5 years can produce 10 queens sold at £30 each. profit £282

A Kieler bought for £10 can produce 10 queens. profit £290.

But it took a few more bees to fill it each year so that probably wipes out the £8 difference!

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## fatshark

> The other thing I intend to trial is the Payne poly nuc as a mating nuc with just a single frame of bees and brood pushed against one of the walls with an insulated dummy frame.
> Take a frame of sealed brood plus the adhering bees, place it in the nuc and add a ripe queen cell.
> Keep closed until the virgin is out, same as with an apidea.


Why are you keeping these closed until the Q emerges? Are they in the same apiary and so you want to ensure you still have enough bees?
I'm doing my first round (actually second, but the first was the association course) now, with the queens going into 3 frame nucs today for mating. However, I'm moving them to another apiary as I ended with very unbalanced boxes when I did this last year in the same apiary.

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## Jon

The one I have set up at the moment is in the same apiary.
You lose less to drifting once they have a queen.
With apideas, if they are opened before the queen emerges the cell can get chilled as a few tend to abscond. if there are queenright colonies or apideas in the same area.
I think it is better to have them concentrated in the apidea making heat until the queen is out.
I usually put in the cells 24 hours from emergence so they don't have to be closed in for long.
The Payne nuc has an open mesh floor so no problem with ventilation.

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## Black Comb

Is there any way to stop the bees building comb around the cells in the cell raiser?

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## fatshark

Black Comb … they tend not to build brace comb until the cells are sealed in my experience. You could always cage them. My cell bar frames have space above the cells - mainly to put the cells into the warmest area - and they usually build brace comb there. I cut it out periodically to give them some more to do.

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## drumgerry

So would I be right in thinking you just have a single row of cells in your frames Fatshark?  Up to now I've had two rows = 20 cells.  Do you use two frames of 10 each?  Or just graft the 10 at a time? (I'm assuming you're using Nats which may be completely wrong of course!).  I have had the brace comb problem as well and usually have to do some very delicate surgery on the sealed cells with a sharp knife before they'll fit through the wee hole in the Apidea plastic cover.

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## drumgerry

And if your German's any good this vid might be of interest.  I watched it in complete ignorance of what they were on about!  Interesting and very organised queen rearing depicted.  My favourite bit is when they chuck a virgin queen into a pot of honey before letting her climb out on to a finger and letting her walk into an Apidea!  Anyone tried that?!  (it was your description of having the space above your cell bar Fatshark that made me think of this vid)

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## fatshark

My cell bar frame looks very like the one in the video ... 10 cells at a time only. I've also had to do some surgery and carry a Stanley knife which does the trick pretty well. I've also used kitchen scissors to trim them down. I posted a picture of my frame in the queen rearing images thread. That lot went into nucs today and were caged from a day or two after sealing as there was a good flow on and I didn't want them entombed in brace comb.

This year I'm using three frame nucs for mating and testing queen quality. I discovered today that the JzBz cell protectors - the orange ones you spike into the comb - are far too narrow for anything except the smallest queen cells. D'oh!

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## Black Comb

Thanks.
I will cage them earlier next time.
I have a double row and they built comb between the 2 bars as well as above the top one as per your pic.
I wonder if putting a frame of foundation next to the cell bar frame (after they are sealed) would help?

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## mbc

> I wonder if putting a frame of foundation next to the cell bar frame (after they are sealed) would help?


I always keep a frame or two of foundation in my cell builders for this very reason.

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## mbc

> If you do the math, an apidea bought at £18 used for 5 years can produce 10 queens sold at £30 each. profit £282
> 
> A Kieler bought for £10 can produce 10 queens. profit £290.
> 
> But it took a few more bees to fill it each year so that probably wipes out the £8 difference!


Interesting perspective Jon, but I'm sure the true value and cost can only be guessed at once the biggest relative cost has been factored in, time!  Essentially, both apideas and kielers are very quick to set up, apideas quicker by a fraction just by taking into account the greater number of support colonies needed for the slightly more bees needed for the kieler.  The greatest loss in time involved has to be failures, this is where i think the mini plus will win out, as there is a ready supply of frames with brood to split up if some have been overwintered.  I know apideas (and kielers) can have extra decks and be overwintered, but I would think its alot more uncertain than the mini plus and also requires additional equipment, and more hassle to keep them in the box until ready to split up for the new seasons cells.  
This question of starting mating nucs with some existing brood makes a significant difference to the eventual success rate of getting mated queens from them, and anyone with any experience of the game realises it is so much easier to harvest and re-cell a successful nuc than it is to try again with a failure or shake them out and begin from the beginning with them again.  This will compound the advantage of getting success from the first set in any long term cost benefit analysis.
Nucs made up with full size frames of brood and suitable numbers of bees have consistently been the most reliable mating units for me, and were it not for the need for lots of queen to keep up with demand, and also plenty of spares to be able to do plenty of culling, I think I would have stuck to full frame nucs, maybe if cheap poly units had been available when I started I would have.
To avoid excessive drifting when stocking mating nucs from the same apiary blocking them in temporarily is essential.  I often use green grass as a time release device, by the time it has wilted enough for them to push it or chew it out, the combination of being stuck in a new box with different smells for a time, and the emergence of a new virgin, is enough to fix them to their new home, mostly!

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## Jon

Time is obviously the critical factor and I think a couple of quid difference per unit is not really that important - maybe for someone working thousands.

The Keiler needs an inner cover with a slot for a queen cell which you have to make yourself which wastes time.

The Payne polynuc with the rotating disk and the open mesh floor is perfect for blocking the bees in for a day or two without problems.




> This question of starting mating nucs with some existing brood makes a significant difference...


I am tempted to throw a swarm with a laying queen into a stack of apidea supers each with 5 frames so that I would have a supply of brood to add to the apideas as I make them up. I have about a dozen of the supers.
Anyone ever tried that?

I have about 35 apideas with virgins set out now.
Had 16/18 cells emerge at the weekend.

40 more to sort out before next weekend.

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## drumgerry

This could have gone in the "News" post but it's to do with queen rearing so thought it might be better here.

Today was Day 14 of my first round of grafts.  Things have been hectic so I haven't had a chance to go in to see them since Day 5 (the day after grafting).  At that point I had 13 started cells.  So I was going to make up my apideas today and give them each a queen cell.  Got a rather nasty surprise when I opened them up.  Only 5 capped cells left.  One had hatched and killed the other 7.  Not sure why 5 of them escaped.  Lesson for today - don't try to get away with not caging capped queen cells!  Hatching on Day 14 took me by surprise though.  Earliest I've had previously was Day 15.

Anyway plan for this afternoon is to dequeen and de-brood a nuc and give them a frame of grafts.  I'll give your system another go later in the Summer Rosie.  I broke the queenright cell raiser up this morning.

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## fatshark

> I wonder if putting a frame of foundation next to the cell bar frame (after they are sealed) would help?


Perhaps, but I use the Ben Harden system so only have 4 frames above the QE. If they're that keen to draw comb I'd be tempted to put another super between the queenright brood box and the BH box. 

Interestingly, I don't recall ever having them build brace comb around hair roller cages despite the fact that these are usually smothered in bees if you have a look at them pre-emergence.

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## mbc

> I am tempted to throw a swarm with a laying queen into a stack of apidea supers each with 5 frames so that I would have a supply of brood to add to the apideas as I make them up. I have about a dozen of the supers.
> Anyone ever tried that?


I have half a dozen of the langstroth half frame double mating nucs sold by Park beekeeping supplies, and the frames cleverly clip together to make a full langstroth frame and this is exactly what I do to stock these - I've had these mini nucs for years but always leave them till last because I dont really like the two frame format, and in all that time i've not yet managed to amalgamate enough bees and brood from successful nucs to overwinter as a langstroth box.

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## prakel

> I have half a dozen of the langstroth half frame double mating nucs sold by Park beekeeping supplies, and the frames cleverly clip together to make a full langstroth frame


ICKO sell a mini plus frame based on the same interlocking idea (for the Swienty version I think, but I understand that the top bar length is the same as for Lyson's) -the connection looks better than that on the type currently sold by Park which I always found a little too tight a fit for my own liking.

http://www.icko-apiculture.com/en/ap...mini-plus.html

admittedly not much use if you're buying the Lyson boxes complete with frames but just a heads up that the option is out there.

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## Jon

> I have half a dozen of the langstroth half frame double mating nucs sold by Park beekeeping supplies,


No mating nuc you haven't tried MBC!

I found a laying queen in one of my apideas today so that is the first mated queen of the season (apart from one which superseded its queen a couple of weeks ago)
Last year the first laying queen I got was 30th June.

I have 4 Payne poly nucs set up now with a single frame of bees and sealed brood between the wall and an insulated dummy.
Probably about double the bees you put in an apidea in each one but will be considerably more when the brood emerges.

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## mbc

> ICKO sell a mini plus frame based on the same interlocking idea (for the Swienty version I think, but I understand that the top bar length is the same as for Lyson's) -the connection looks better than that on the type currently sold by Park which I always found a little too tight a fit for my own liking.
> 
> http://www.icko-apiculture.com/en/ap...mini-plus.html
> 
> admittedly not much use if you're buying the Lyson boxes complete with frames but just a heads up that the option is out there.


Tres interesting!  
Seems to be advertised for the Lyson miniplus.  
Did you ever ascertain if the swienty and lyson miniplus hives are interchangeable?

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## drumgerry

Do you get a Mars bar for earliest laying queen Jon?!  Or can anyone beat you with an earlier one?

I think the Mars bar should be reinstated for earliest current year laying queen as opposed to the perfect Draw-wing plot of yesteryear!  What do you say Gavin?!

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## Jon

I am sure Pete Little has beaten me by weeks but it is cheating to live in Devon.

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## prakel

> Tres interesting!  
> Seems to be advertised for the Lyson miniplus.  
> Did you ever ascertain if the swienty and lyson miniplus hives are interchangeable?


Not yet, the Lyson frames are just a little deeper (I've been told) but share the same top bar length. Maybe we could ask Jon to post some close up photos of his new Swienty box with some measurements (hint!) when he's not too busy. 

Failing that, I am going to bite the bullet and order in some of the Swienty boxes -I like the fact that the individual components can be purchased separately (I've also heard that the floors -only- of the wooden mini-plus hives which are used quite a lot on the continent are interchangeable with the poly version. They cost pretty much the same as the poly floors). 

I reckon I'd be happy to make my own insulated roofs which would save about £5 initial outlay on each hive (almost enough to buy a second brood) if done as a spare-time hobby through the winter, in the meantime a slab of kingspan would work equally well.

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## Jon

The swarm I got into a Payne polynuc in the garden 2 weeks ago is now rehoused on 25 apidea frames in a stack.
It had laid up 4 frames and had brood sealed already and this was added to the top box of another colony minus the bees.

Look at this monster which had the audacity to arrive in my garden.
Now marked and clipped and rehomed with her yellow spawn in the stack.

yellow queen1.jpg yellow queen2.jpg yellow queen3.jpg

Thankfully no sign of a single yellow drone.

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## prakel

Nice looking queen....if you lived in the South of England  :Smile:

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## Jon

I'll post her to you later if you want her!

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## prakel

expect she'll be worn out after stocking several hundred apideas!

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## Jon

Looks like she could fill about 3 brood boxes!

Here is the new home:

apidea stack.jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Mine are mostly in mini plus hives, but also apideas, kielers and split national brood boxes, they all work well and I'm looking forwards to seeing how successful they each are.  The mini plus were the easiest and cheapest in resources to set up as I'd overwintered a few so just needed to dismantle all the bees and brood from them in to lots of separate units.


I'm confused by the various sites selling 'mini plus' hives.  Swienty's mini plus hives don't look like Abelo's mini plus hives.  Are the differences just in appearance, and not in function?  Which ones are you using, MBC?

Kitta

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## Jon

Checked around the Apideas earlier this evening and have about 18 queens laying.
I have ten Paynes poly nucs set up as mating nucs as well with a single frame of bees and brood between the wall and an insulated dummy board.
There is a frame of stores on the other side of the dummy board.
One of these I set up 2 weeks ago with a ripe queen cell now has a laying queen.
I reckon these will make decent enough mating nucs.
You start with a frame of bees and brood and keep closed up until the queen has emerged, same as with apideas.
Once the brood has emerged you have about 2 frames of bees. When most of the brood has emerged you can move the frame of stores alongside so you now have a 2 frame nuc.
When the queen starts to lay, after a few days you swap the 2 frames of eggs/larvae for 2 frames of sealed brood and you should have a 5 frame nuc about 2 weeks later when the brood has emerged.

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## mbc

> Checked around the Apideas earlier this evening and have about 18 queens laying.
> I have ten Paynes poly nucs set up as mating nucs as well with a single frame of bees and brood between the wall and an insulated dummy board.
> There is a frame of stores on the other side of the dummy board.
> One of these I set up 2 weeks ago with a ripe queen cell now has a laying queen.
> I reckon these will make decent enough mating nucs.
> You start with a frame of bees and brood and keep closed up until the queen has emerged, same as with apideas.
> Once the brood has emerged you have about 2 frames of bees. When most of the brood has emerged you can move the frame of stores alongside so you now have a 2 frame nuc.
> When the queen starts to lay, after a few days you swap the 2 frames of eggs/larvae for 2 frames of sealed brood and you should have a 5 frame nuc about 2 weeks later when the brood has emerged.


Well done!
I'm not sure you're gaining anything with the jiggery pokery with the frame of stores and dummy board in the paynes box, I always think bees "feel more secure"* when set up with several combs, three are better than two and, not that I've tried it but I assume, two would be much better than one.  If you observe bees in small units, they need quite a bit of flexibility to expand and contract their comb coverage depending on the outside temperature.

* I know its anthropomorphising, but bees that "feel secure" visibly thrive and its easy enough to observe that.

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## Jon

I am looking for ways to get queens mated with the minimum amount of bees.
the 2-3 frame nuc is an ideal unit if you can spare the frames of bees to set them up.
With a single frame nuc you can add a frame of emerging brood as soon as the queen has started to lay and there should be enough bees to cover it.
One thing I need to do longer term is keep more colonies as it is quite a drain filling apideas all the time.

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## mbc

Aye, but bees that feel "secure" will do a better job of getting a virgin properly mated IMHO

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## Jon

Mine are mating in 10-11 days average at the moment so no complaints there.
Nowt as secure as a well stocked Apidea!

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## drumgerry

It'd be interesting to calculate how many colonies are needed to support say 50 apideas or so (I reckon I can fill 10 from a couple of supers of bees).  Can't you science-y type punters work out a formula or something?!  I love to raise queens but I hate to drain my colonies of the resources that are going to get me a honey crop.

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## gavin

My highly scientific experiments this year (n=1) indicate that:

1 dbl brood colony - 7 Apideas fills = a fairly depleted mother colony which nevertheless will build quite strongly in the subsequent weeks.

There's usually a vigorous colony with hybridised bees which you don't want for breeding purposes.  Unfortunately this year I chose unwisely and the rest of that colony has just been taken (thanks FD!) to our distant mating site for drone production.

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## Jon

I filled 8 apideas from a double brood colony a fortnight ago and took 8 more from it yesterday.
It has managed to fill 2 supers in spite of my attempts to deplete it.
This is a colony with a black queen which has mated with several yellow drones as seen in her yellow banded workers.
Temper is less than perfect so I am trying to knock it back a bit without great success.

Once the apideas are established the second and third cells to go in will be no drain on resources but filling them initially can be tricky.
Gerry I would say you could run 50 with about 8 colonies but it might take until late June to get them all filled without taking out too many bees.

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## mbc

> Nowt as secure as a well stocked Apidea!


Three frames of tightly packed bees, presactly!  :Wink:

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