# General beekeeping > Starting out >  Poly smiths/ national mix

## nemphlar

Seems MM has sold the last of his poly Smiths, does anyone know if I can simply adapt the standard national. Assuming the ID and OD are the same is it simply a cut on the frame shoulder to allow the top bee space. If anyone has a picture of the top section please

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## prakel

So is that poly smith hive now totally discontinued?

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## gavin

> So is that poly smith hive now totally discontinued?


I suppose it may be worth asking Swienty when they open again in a week.  However they seem to have changed over to their new design of National and left behind the Smith and the old National both of which were linked with MM and bore the Denrosa name. 

I have a couple of Smiths (by mistake! Amongst a batch of Nationals I got from Murray) and they are identical to the Nationals (old style) other than the narrower (for the short lugs) and deeper (for top bee space) cut-out.  Not that they're actually cut-out, looks like the mould is that shape.

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## prakel

Sounds like another reason to think twice before committing to poly gear.

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## drumgerry

The longer I have with both poly and wooden hives the less convinced I am of the advantages of one over the other.  Poly is handy and convenient for nucs.  It may even have some advantages in heat retention for nuc sized colonies.  But I'm not seeing much of a difference either in buildup or overwintering in full sized colonies although admittedly my personal sample size isn't a large one.  So much so that I've been thinking I might just start buying cedar hives again.  For nucs I'll still buy poly if for no other reason than cost.

On another but related note did I imagine an email a while back from Mann Lake saying they were going to be stocking National hives?  Can't find any trace of it in my email and not seeing them on the Mann Lake site.

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## madasafish

> The longer I have with both poly and wooden hives the less convinced I am of the advantages of one over the other.  Poly is handy and convenient for nucs.  It may even have some advantages in heat retention for nuc sized colonies.  But I'm not seeing much of a difference either in buildup or overwintering in full sized colonies although admittedly my personal sample size isn't a large one.  So much so that I've been thinking I might just start buying cedar hives again.  For nucs I'll still buy poly if for no other reason than cost.
> 
> On another but related note did I imagine an email a while back from Mann Lake saying they were going to be stocking National hives?  Can't find any trace of it in my email and not seeing them on the Mann Lake site.


On the Poly vs wood comparison, I have just removed my varroa boards after counting mite drops  (minimal in 1 week but a different issue).

To judge from the volume of  cappings on the boards , the largest colony which is in a poly Lang used far less (50%?)  honey  than each of the two wooden Langs...Seems to confirm the claims of less honey usage due to being warmer/less heat loss.

Temperatures  ranged from 9C to 2C for the first half of the week, and 2C to -3.8C for the latter.

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## nemphlar

Similarly I only have a dozen hives and it's difficult to draw conclusions cedar against poly, poly does seem to help the nucs and working from that principal I think it may help when scaled up. I also find they will have brood In early spring hard up against the side wall in the poly but more central in cedar.
I don't have damp in the poly with OMF, where damp was always an issue in cedar.
I've too much smiths kit to change over and I still think langstroth are too big for general use in the west, so I'll be reaching for the kingspan to adapt the cedar smiths

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## Poly Hive

Having operated on a modestly large scale, some 80 odd boxes roughly 50 wooden of various types and Langstroth Poly and home made poly Smiths my experience is that bees just do better in poly. I suspect MM would agree with that as no commercial person makes decisions on the basis of hobby horses unlike the amateurs. Or at least not if they intend staying in business. 

Bees just love the warmth of them. I can't discuss your swarms but the ones I collect around here promptly begin on the face of the foundation next to a wall. Warmest place for them to produce the wax.  :Smile: 

PH

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## prakel

Not so much a case of whether bees do better in them or not, what would concern me is that you only need a manufacturer to stop making a certain type, or to significantly change the design and all of a sudden you're left cobbling together 'fits' with other boxes. I believe that was often presented as one of the prime reasons not to buy into the Paradise boxes being sold by Modern Beekeeping.

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## Poly Hive

Does that logic not apply to any hive? 

Personally I have made many poly boxes do what I want in terms of modding and the same of course with timber ones. When the only poly available was Langstroth, this is 1988 I made them take "smith" by way of some glue and a table saw. 13 frames btw and they worked pretty well, though not as good I have to say as when used as Langstroths. There is always a reason not to do something eh? And the bees DO do better in poly. But you have to try it to find that out for your self.

PH

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## prakel

> Does that logic not apply to any hive?


No. We have wooden hives made by various sources going back 60 years which are still inter-changeable with the stuff being turned out by Thornes, no 'modding' to the brand new equipment required. 




> 13 frames btw and they worked pretty well, though not as good I have to say as when used as Langstroths.


We also use 13 frame BS hives. Not as good as the dadants in many respects but we've developed our own 'ways' for getting the most out of them. 





> There is always a reason not to do something eh? And the bees DO do better in poly. But you have to try it to find that out for your self. PH


As I've stated, clearly, my comment had nothing to do with how bees perform in or out of poly. 

Lets be clear on this too, IF I was using national kit I would already have a lot of the Swienty national boxes in use, probably their top feeders too, because that stuff would be inter-changeable with the existing wood. As it is, to invest in poly hives at present would require investment in building floors and roofs as well as buying the poly boxes all to be done on a _very_ limited budget. But would I be able to go to a shop in 50 years time and buy basically the same kit, needing no 'modding'? Possibly, but far less certain than with wood built to acknowledged specs.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Similarly I only have a dozen hives and it's difficult to draw conclusions cedar against poly, poly does seem to help the nucs and working from that principal I think it may help when scaled up. I also find they will have brood In early spring hard up against the side wall in the poly but more central in cedar.
> I don't have damp in the poly with OMF, where damp was always an issue in cedar.
> I've too much smiths kit to change over and I still think langstroth are too big for general use in the west, so I'll be reaching for the kingspan to adapt the cedar smiths


Hi Nephlar
I agree with you at the end of the day Smiths are very easy for the beekeeper to operate with
Poly Nucs are ever so handy for transporting bees and the Paynes ones are nice and dense
When it comes to normal everyday beekeeping Smiths are tough,light if cedar,long lasting, immune to chemicals water flame(within reason) 
Floors are easy to make crownboards are flat ply (top bee space) and excluders, though framed and expensive, are solidly made
You can strap them down hard and they are compact for transporting 
I believe the bees may like poly hives but so do rodents and high winds and Mrs Drone Ranger says "No more hives!"   :Smile:

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## prakel

> Mrs Drone Ranger says "No more hives!"


Then don't get her any, buy them for yourself instead.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Then don't get her any, buy them for yourself instead.


Its ok for you prakel in the Jurassic era to say that
 Oh how I long for the days of my youth carelessly skipping over the tundra chasing the Dinohyus
Time flies by, and now theres hardly one to be seen except on the tills at Asda
These days I don't get to leave the cave (unsupervised)

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## nemphlar

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;28698]Hi Nephlar
I agree with you at the end of the day Smiths are very easy for the beekeeper to operate with
Poly Nucs are ever so handy for transporting bees and the Paynes ones are nice and dense
When it comes to normal everyday beekeeping Smiths are tough

A classic and still appropriate scottish hive heading for the exit door pity

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## nemphlar

Just received a Sweinty poly national brood box to check against my smiths poly s . Apart from a spacer for the lugs they are the same size.

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## nemphlar

Switched the last of my cedar smiths into a modified national poly today, probably my best performer this year 12 frames full of bees crammed into 11. A good performing queen I think is more important than hive type, keeping the bees in the hive with the snelgrove board might have helped

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## The Drone Ranger

The wasps are still eating my Paynes Polynucs and now the mice are joining in 
I rubbed the outside with a hot chilli pepper (take that you little bistro)

Anyway Cedar Smiths are still better in every way
No painting, no snacking, no modifying
And they will outlast you
Come to think of it the poly might outlast me anyway
Poly, horrible, horrible stuff mostly appealing to the cheapskate in me  :Smile:

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## busybeephilip

I got two of these paynes things to try out, (a moment of weakness overtook me),  I can see that they are very vulnerable to rat/mouse attack and if a rat decides to get in there will be no way of stopping it.  But I can see their uses for setting up nucs that will be forwarded to their new owner with nice shiney new box included.

like DR I think I'll stick with wood

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## gwizzie

I dont think it will matter if you use poly or wood if the mouse/rat wants in they will chew their way in, but I'll stick with my poly's and use the few wooden when I have to.

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## nemphlar

My cedar smiths have already been around a lot longer than I'm likely to be and still in good condition DR so I don't doubt your correct.
I don't want to speak to soon but I've not had any sign of vermin having a go at them and the nucs are made of 25mm low density poly. All of mine are on minimum 15" stools which may be deterring them, although even the woodpeckers don't seem to bother

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