# More ... > Beekeeper education >  Module 6 - a few one-point questions

## Mellifera Crofter

I have a few one-point questions from previous papers that I can't find answers to.  They are:

- Name one disadvantage of supersedure.

The examiner did not say from whose point of view - the bees' or the beekeeper's.  From the bees' point of view I can't think of any.  They have a laying queen although she may be failing, they don't have to face the risks of having to find a new home, and if the new queen doesn't mate successfully - it doesn't really matter.  From my point of view, I'm not sure what the bees' intentions are: supersedure or swarming, so I worry - and I don't think that's the answer.

- A queen assesses whether a cell is suitable for a drone or a worker egg using her: ocelli; anterior metatarsals; tibial spurs; proboscis.

She can't see in the dark and she doesn't use her legs (I think that's what the two middle terms are about), so that leaves the proboscis - but does she really use her tongue for that?  If it wasn't a pick-the-right-answer question, I probably would have guessed her antennae.

- In a brood nest at its peak size, what are the proportion of eggs to larvae to sealed brood?

and

- What electrical phenomenon affects honey bee dances?

Can anybody help with these, please?
Kitta

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## gavin

Goodness, they're hard.  Bear in mind I haven't read any of the coursework, so this is in no way any kind of informed answer .....

1.  Disadvantage of supersedure?  Maybe it often happens at a time of year with fewer drones around?  Or, as you said, the risk of inappropriate off-season swarming?

2.  She measures with her legs, but I don't know which of the two middle options is right.

3.  Well, the times in the various stages are: 3:6:12 days, so 1:2:4 in a colony at full pelt.

4.  Not a scooby.

G.

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## Easy beesy

Can't help with first one but for measuring I would guess at anterior metatarsals - just because they are on the feet rather than legs. 

Electrical phenomenon could be magnetic north. 

Brood ratio is 1:2:4. (From hooper)

Cx

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Gavin and Easy Beesy.  So, I was completely wrong about the way a queen inspects an empty cell.  I thought I've seen queens tucking their heads into cells!  Thanks for explaining the reason for the ratio - that helps.
Yes, I suppose magnetic north ...
Thanks,
Kitta

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## thada1

wow - that's spooky.  I'm practising mod6 papers this morning as well, and have had to resort to google to get answers to exactly the same questions! 

 I think the electrical phenomenon *could* be weather.  Here's a link to to a BeeWorld article in 1976 that explores the effect of electrical charge.  It doesn't actually say that the dances are affected, but it certainly seems reasonable that the crackly atmosphere just before a storm might, and bees definitely are sensitive to the weather.

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## Black Comb

I'm not doing Mod 6 but the electrical phenomenon might be a thunderstorm. I.e. an electric storm as they are often called.
It's well known they are bad tempered when thunder's about.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks, Thada and Black Comb.  I'll read the paper asap.  I did wonder about thunder and lightning but decided against it because I thought it's not foraging weather, and therefore they won't be dancing - or maybe that's the effect: they stopped dancing!
Kitta

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## Trog

How about Northern Lights?  CMEs can knock out communications, etc., so maybe bees could be affected ... and they would be out foraging if combined with a sunny day.

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## Blackcavebees

Was doing this paper today (before I found this thread) and was scratching my head at a couple of these. Any of our resident experts going to weigh in?

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## Jon

The main disadvantage of supersedure (from the beekeeper point of view) is that the bees are choosing the queen rather than the beekeeper.
The colony may have heritable traits which you don't want to propagate.
Also, if you keep a pure race of bee and they supersede the queen you may well end up with a new queen mated with mongrel or different race drones which will be an unknown quantity in terms of temper and handling.

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## Neils

Hard to argue against that and I'm scratching my head to think of any other reason why you might view supersedure to be a disadvantage. Ultimately the bees are of the opinion that the queen is deficient and are replacing her; yet in comparison to swarming or emergency replacement it's a fairly benign process so outside of Jon's reasoning I'm struggling to think of any other reason why it might be considered disadvantageous.

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## Jon

In my experience classic supersedure where both queens are present until the newcomer starts to lay is quite rare.
A lot of the time the old queen seems to disappear just after the virgin emerges or before she is even out of the cell.
When this happens in October, the colony is usually writing itself a suicide note.
Some years I get queens mated in October but this year the last ones got mated around 8-10 September.

In spite of what some say, they do try and supersede queens which have not a lot wrong with them. I have removed supersedure cells and had the original queen continue to lay well for another 18 months.

'The bees know best' ?
Not always.

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## Dan

Only just seen this for some reason.

- Name one disadvantage of supersedure.

Timing, supply of drones, hence possiblity of poor mating.

- A queen assesses whether a cell is suitable for a drone or a worker egg using her: ocelli; anterior metatarsals; tibial spurs; proboscis.

Would need to check but since 'anterior metatarsals' sounds hind leg to me, so tibial spurs it is.

- In a brood nest at its peak size, what are the proportion of eggs to larvae to sealed brood?

If it's a steady-state peak size, then 1:2:4 as Gavin suggested.

- What electrical phenomenon affects honey bee dances?

Electromagnetic fields.

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## Neils

> 'The bees know best' ?
> Not always.


Natural selection, ignoring beekeeper intervention, at its purest. And with beekeeper intervention possible candidacy for the Darwin awards.




> If it's a steady-state peak size, then 1:2:4 as Gavin suggested.


Concur. Have a spreadsheet, plus graph that lets you play around with egg laying in a colony. 1:2:4 is very much an 'ideal' and will get you a tick on a one point question.

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## Ruary

> - A queen assesses whether a cell is suitable for a drone or a worker egg using her: ocelli; anterior metatarsals; tibial spurs; proboscis.
> 
> Would need to check but since 'anterior metatarsals' sounds hind leg to me, so tibial spurs it is.
> 
> .


Surely anterior means front, posterior means rear??
Ruary

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## Beefever

These are hard question but if I can just chip in.

I would put the main disadvantage of supercedure as there is no increase in colony numbers, which is the primary aim of swarming.

The queen assessing a suitable cell is a bit of a guess.  She doesn't use her proboscis or ocelli.  Tibial spurs are around the knee area so would have to go for anterior metatarsals as they are front feet.

Brood ratio has been mentioned and the weather one would be as Dan said (lightening)

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## Jon

HI BF



> I would put the main disadvantage of supercedure as there is no increase in colony numbers


I think it was Tom Seeley who found that natural swarms only have a 30% chance of becoming established so keeping a big strong colony through supersedure might make some sense from a colony survival point of view depending upon relative colony strength.
I imagine a colony which supersedes its queen will also still swarm from time to time

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## masterbk

Two types of supersedure
1.	Inefficient (imperfect) supersedure is where the new queen emerges from her cell and kills her mother before mating and laying. This is inefficient because a gap in egg laying occurs 
Inefficient supersedure can occur at the wrong time of year.  As mentioned by Dan it can result in a drone laying queen if there no/few drones to mate with. Also it if occurs early in April it hinders the build up needed for the colony to take advantage of early crops like Oil seed rape and if it occurs in July the brood gap can reduce the yield on late crops like Balsam and Heather.
2.	Efficient (perfect) supersedure is where the new queen emerges but her mother is not killed and continues to lay. The virgin will mate and she also lay.  Eventually only the daughter queen will remain when her mother disappears presumably killed but this may be weeks or months later.	
This too can cause problems for the beekeeper if it occurs in a colony with undesirable characteristics which you want to requeen.  You may not realise that supersedure has occurred and remove the old queen and then try to introduce a queen from a better strain.  The introduction fails as there is the other queen in there.
 Also Bees with Nosema often supersede queens. Many beekeepers who have been selecting supersedure strains have inadvertently also been selecting for Nosema susceptibility.

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## Jon

The 'inefficient' scenario is pretty much the only one I ever see and I also suspect it is linked to nosema.
Another example of supersedure is when you try and introduce a new queen taken from an apidea which has only been laying for a short while.
It's not unusual to see a supersedure cell appear after she has been laying for just a couple of weeks.

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## Dan

Thanks Ruary, yes, anterior being front. Not sure why I got that one the wrong way round!

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## Jon

> Thanks Ruary, yes, anterior being front. Not sure why I got that one the wrong way round!


Too much Imidacloprid on your cornflakes.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...and the weather one would be as Dan said (lightening)


Well, as I mentioned earlier (#7), they don't forage in rainy weather - and certainly not when there's thunder and lightening about - so they're not dancing.  Stopping to dance is an effect, but not necessarily as a result of the lightening; it could just be the rain.
Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The main disadvantage of supersedure (from the beekeeper point of view) is that the bees are choosing the queen rather than the beekeeper.
> ...





> ...This is inefficient because a gap in egg laying occurs 
> ...
> 2.	... This too can cause problems for the beekeeper if it occurs in a colony with undesirable characteristics which you want to requeen.  You may not realise that supersedure has occurred ...
> 
> Also Bees with Nosema often supersede queens. ...


I did not think of these reasons - good to know.
Kitta

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