# Beekeepers beekeeping > Local associations >  SG consultation on an Amm reserve on Colonsay

## gavin

The Scottish Government issued a consultation on a possible reserve for native honeybees on Colonsay back in February.  The consultation went to the SBA, the BFA, various nature conservation organisations, and at least some local beekeeping associations in Scotland.

The consultation closes on 12 April, so if your local association hasn't yet responded you may like to have some discussion on this locally.

The document issued with the consultation email is here, and the email text is below.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2013 2:04 PM
Subject: Scottish Government proposal for an Apis mellifera mellifera reserve on Colonsay

Good afternoon

The Scottish Government is proposing to create a reserve for Apis mellifera mellifera (Black bee) on Colonsay.

This issue was discussed during the passage of the Wildlife and Natural Environment (Scotland) 2011 Act and the Minister for Environment and Climate Change stated that the protection of the Colonsay bees would be considered as a matter of priority following the coming into force of that legislation.

We are now seeking views on the proposal. The process and deadline for submitting your views in included in the paper.

Regards

---

[responsible official]
Wildlife and Protected Areas | Natural Resources Division | Directorate for Environment and Forestry
The Scottish Government | 1-D North | Victoria Quay | Edinburgh | EH6 6QQ | T: 0131 244 6544
www.scotland.gov.uk/nonnativespecies

----------


## Calum

Hi
an excellent idea, I'd add Varroa free: -reserve for varroa free Apis mellifera mellifera (Black bee) on Colonsay.
Is colonsay large enough to support a population with enough DNA diversity? Or would it have to rely on 'imports' to preven inbreeding?
Where do you sign your support- or only responses to the questionnare are accepted? 
Br
Calum

----------


## The Drone Ranger

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/arc...hp/t-3383.html
This thread has lots of for and against arguments 
I can't see any reason why not but there are some folks who want all the sycamore trees chopped down because they are non native species so I doubt the outcome will be as straightforward as it could be here's a link to the USA about woodland http://www.prospectpark.org/environment/woodlands

----------


## Calum

My 2 Cents, maybe it will give others additional ideas for grounds for the proposal:
a)	Do you agree that the Amm population on Colonsay should be protected?
Yes all native stock that is disease free and varroa free should be protected as a matter of urgency and security for certain food production (in case of bee stock decimation on the mainland)
c)	Do you think that the proposal goes far enough/too far? 
I think that the proposal is appropriate but overlooks varroa free potential of the current populations 
d)	Should the proposal go further? For example by restricting the sale or advertising for sale of honey bees on Colonsay or requiring the reporting of non-Amm honey bees if they are seen on Colonsay. 
Reporting of non Amm bees might not be practical as most people have difficulty telling the difference. It would be well worth considering addressing the risk of feeding bees honey not from Colonsay  honey can contain foulbrood spores, and outbreak of which could decimate the population. This should be extended to used bee equipment (tools, boxes, frames, and brooded built up foundation.
e)	Do you think that the proposal would affect businesses? Yes, positively.
If so  what types of business and what effect would you envisage?
There is demand for purebred AMM bees throughout Europe; Colonsay could become a leading exporter to this market if queen breeders were active in this. Pricesfor AMM Queens range from 30-75 Pounds
f)	Do you think that the proposal would affect individuals? Yes (beekeepers positively, otherwise no)
If so  what types of people and what effect would you envisage?
Beekeepers on the island could profit from the designation when selling their queens or nucs, also beekeepers and the farmers that rely on their bees throughout UK and further afield could profit from this isolated purebred, disease free population in case of a die out such as the Isle of Wight Disease (Acarine (Tracheal) mites) 1904.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Calum 
Would it not run contrary to the Scottish Beekeeping Association policy if Colonsay was shipping bees to the mainland ?

----------


## Calum

Hi
I didn't know they had a policy re not exporting their superior AMM DNA.
Isn't Colonsay devolving from Scotland with the rest of the Isles once Scotland has devolved from its better senses?

----------


## gavin

Best keep off the politics.  We all think differently, and that is OK.

The point of this thread was to act as a reminder (or a first note) for local associations to contribute to the consultation.  The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned!  OK, this isn't the whole package, but at least it would be a start.

----------


## fatshark

Interestingly ... you'll note under section 4 that the release of "any animal outwith its native range in Scotland is an offence".  This of course means that the release of Varroa on Colonsay would be an offence ...

----------


## gavin

And therefore selling (or taking) bees from an infested area (which would have Varroa for sure) to, say, Mull, Orkney, Caithness, Ardnamurchan, Moidart, parts of W Ross and Sutherland would be illegal too? 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

----------


## The Drone Ranger

It's unlikely there would be any proper enforcement though that's the problem with most rules /laws where there is no proper authority to pursue offenders

----------


## Jimbo

Not so much about enforcement but more about education and awareness of beekeepers that we still have varroa free areas and we still have Amm strongholds in Scotland

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Not so much about enforcement but more about education and awareness of beekeepers that we still have varroa free areas and we still have Amm strongholds in Scotland


I agree with you there Jimbo 
I was just saying that lots of things might be technically illegal but there is no-one to stop them.
My experience with SEPA (environment) is they are pretty toothless 
Have you been submitting bees to the BIBBA bee mapping project ?
Will they be publishing the results ?

----------


## Jimbo

I did submit some samples from my area to Project Discovery a number of years ago. I was then asked by Terry Clare to send some good Amm samples to Catherine Thompson for DNA analysis.
I did see a map of the UK on the BIBBA stand at the SBA conference with circles drawn where Amm were found but I think Scotland could have been more specific.
The samples I am currently getting from Ewan's Acarine project has the postcodes attached to the colony sample so we should be able to map the areas a bit better

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Sounds like you are making good progress 
what sort of costs are involved in the testing ?
Is there some funding or support from Government?
I noticed Gavin's thread about EU funding 
The suggestion that Commercial Beekeepers would get help replacing losses seems an odd use of funds

----------


## Jimbo

There are no costs as the software is available free to download. The scanner cost me £50 from e-bay but a newer version is about £100 and a laptop/PC The only costs would be in posting the samples to members who can do the wing morphometry
As a hobby beekeeper there is no support from goverment sources.
This could be a good project that the SBA could oversee and support at little cost to the SBA. but would provide a lot of valuable information on the sub species of Amm found in Scotland

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Once the initial identification takes place though BIBBA say are doing DNA testing
I wondered what the cost of a project like that might be and whether it would possible in Scotland (with funding)
I think that is your area of expertise ?


Just might be worth going for it while the Scottish Gov are looking at the Colonsay reserve 
Once you get their attention you don't want to have to explain the whole thing again
Sorry Jimbo I don't know of Catherine Thompson where is she based ?

----------


## Jimbo

It only costs about £5 to extract DNA from a bee plus staff costs. The analysis is the problem. A DNA analyer can cost about £750,000. It would also be best to send the samples to a research lab who specialises in insect DNA analysis possibly in Europe. Then there is the interpretation of the results and what value they are to you.
Wing morphometry is a useful tool to identify potential breeding Amm colonies if this was corrilated to some Amm DNA results then beekeepers would have a simple tool to work with without having to do DNA analysis on their bees. Wing morphometry is just a good starting point but you still need to check for the other Amm traits eg body hair, white cappings etc

----------


## Jon

And the trouble with wing morphometry is that you need to be very careful you are not selecting you breeder queens just on the basis of the wing venation. There is an assumption that there is correlation with AMM genetics other than wing pattern but that is just an assumption.
I think it's main use is to rule out potential breeder queens which look ok otherwise, rather than as a positive selection tool.
As Jimbo says, we need to correlate wing samples to DNA to ascertain how useful it is as a rough and ready tool. It may be a lot less useful than many of us imagine.

----------


## emcampbell

> I did submit some samples from my area to Project Discovery a number of years ago. I was then asked by Terry Clare to send some good Amm samples to Catherine Thompson for DNA analysis.
> I did see a map of the UK on the BIBBA stand at the SBA conference with circles drawn where Amm were found but I think Scotland could have been more specific.
> The samples I am currently getting from Ewan's Acarine project has the postcodes attached to the colony sample so we should be able to map the areas a bit better


More in the post today Jimbo ! I have some samples where people have only sent me drones.....is it worth keeping the wings from them or is it only workers you can do the analysis on ? By the way who is the BIBBA chap with the white beard that seems to run the show ? He asked me about the colonsay reserve at the WBK convention and I can't remember his name !

----------


## Jimbo

DR, Catherine Thompson is a PhD student I think sponsored by BIBBA through Co-op funding. Her thesis is about to be published. The main thrust of her work I think was on assessing feral colonies. 


Ewan. Send all you have including the drones I will check and see if there are CI and DS values for Amm Drones.
The BIBBA chap is Terry Claire and is the current BIBBA Chairman. I think Terry is coming up to Inverness soon to run his practical bee breeding course again

----------


## The Drone Ranger

That explains it £5.00 might not be too bad but the equipment cost very high
I saw a you tube video where a chap made his own electron microscope best get the toolbox out Jimbo

----------


## Jimbo

DNA is a bit old hat for us now. You want to be playing with miRNA at £18.00 per sample to extract. Just finished a re furbishment of a genotyping lab and just spent £6M on the equipment

----------


## Jon

> The BIBBA chap is Terry Claire and is the current BIBBA Chairman. I think Terry is coming up to Inverness soon to run his practical bee breeding course again


Will Messenger took over from Terry recently as Bibba chair

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DNA is a bit old hat for us now. You want to be playing with miRNA at £18.00 per sample to extract. Just finished a re furbishment of a genotyping lab and just spent £6M on the equipment


Thing is though  Jimbo DNA might be old hat in your neck of the woods but its very new hat in beekeeping  :Smile: 

What if we are supporting protection of a population of bees on Colonsay and at the same time there is a much better match to AMM elsewhere

Also DNA could be done on drones who mirror the queens they come from (and you should only need 1 in the sample)

----------


## The Drone Ranger

That *drone ranger* guy is clueless -- check the web --DNA extraction is a tricky business
He probably is thinking of the one where they just set things on fire (gas chroma something or other)
The drone for testing would probably need to be posted alive and kicking
He's a moronic cretin  and I'm saddled with him!

Tonto

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Is that so *Tonto* well here's some people trying to get DNA from propolis (might be a scam)
http://connect.barcodeoflife.net/for...-from-propolis
And let's just keep the discussion on an adult level you steaming pile of buffalo poo

----------


## Jon

Voices in the head is no problem they say unless you start to answer them.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Phew that's ok then  :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Jimbo Joking aside will there be a map of near AMM by the time the Acarine project and your scanning project complete ?

I watched the news this morning and a kid had built his own DNA analyser for £400 in his bedroom to check his brothers DNA.
He says he proved his brothers red hair was a mutation (and not a milkman) phenomenon

----------


## Jimbo

Hi DR,

I have just completed the first 12 samples sent by Ewan. Another 35 is in the post. I don't know how many wing samples Ewan has for me and I don't know how Ewan is progressing with his Acarine study. He may be along later to give you an update
Ewan's samples are identifed by their post codes which I hope to send to Donna (a beekeeper I met a few years ago on the morphometry course) who works in Moray college and has experience and software for mapping the data
The wing morphometry is not part of Ewan's original Acarine study but I thought it was too good a chance to miss getting a large number of samples from various locations. It could be used as a pilot study to a more comprehensive mapping study of Amm organised perhaps through the SBA

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jimbo

Thanks for the info and well done for taking on the work involved scanning the samples
Hope the results come from a wide area and the map can be made.
Plus I'm sure the acarine study will be enhanced by knowing which bees may be more AMM

Have you started building that DNA analyser yet I can see a whole new career opening up for you  :Smile:

----------


## Jimbo

I'll get one of my minions started on it or may leave it til summer and give it to a school pupil as a summer project. I have far more important things to do like finding the wonder drug that will cure Diabetes from all that honey we will be producing this year.

----------


## gavin

An update this afternoon from the Scottish Government:

Good afternoon

  You  may be interested to note that The Bee Keeping (Colonsay and Oronsay)  Order 2013 has been laid before the Scottish Parliament today. It  prohibits the keeping of any type  of honey bee, on the island of Colonsay, other than the black bee.

  The order can be found here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20.../contents/made 

  I  would like to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have  taken the time to share your views, knowledge and suggestions with the  Scottish Government on this subject.

  Regards

*---* 
*[name removed for the forum]* 
*Wildlife and Protected Areas | Natural Resources Division |Directorate for Environment and Forestry 
The Scottish Government | 1-C North | Victoria Quay | Edinburgh | EH6 6QQ | T: 0131 244 6544 
www.scotland.gov.uk/nonnativespecies*

----------


## fatshark

Gavin, does this make it law? Or do they have to vote or something?

----------


## gavin

> Gavin, does this make it law? Or do they have to vote or something?


Don't you know your Acts of Sederunt?!   :EEK!:   Well, our Acts of Sederunt.   Scottish Ministers can make Scottish Statutory Instruments, secondary legislation which I guess means that it isn't brought into being via debates and votes of the elected assembly.  Looks like it is Law or will be once Hogmanay is over.  Get your Italian packages here, roll up roll up, better get them in quickly!  (I jest, as I'm sure everyone realises)

*Scottish Statutory Instruments 2013 No. 279*

Animals

The Bee Keeping (Colonsay and Oronsay) Order 2013

Made 24th September 2013

Laid before Parliament 26th September 2013

Coming into force 1st January 2014 

The Scottish Ministers make the following Order in exercise of the powers conferred by section 14ZC of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981(1) and all other powers enabling them to do so.

In accordance with section 26(4A) of that Act(2) they have consulted Scottish Natural Heritage and any other person appearing to them to have an interest in the making of the Order.

----------


## prakel

> ...Looks like it is Law or will be once Hogmanay is over.  Get your Italian packages here, roll up roll up, better get them in quickly!  (I jest, as I'm sure everyone realises)


How about amm which are clearly of foreign origin? The wording seems to allow for their import.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I suppose anyone living on Colonsay can get bees from Andrew Abrahams because they can't get them elsewhere now ?

----------


## Jon

I think Andrew is the only beekeeper on Colonsay.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Hurrah!

(to the confirmation, not Jon's last point)

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I think Andrew is the only beekeeper on Colonsay.


Well unless he plans living forever then there will have to be some others  :Smile:

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Hurrah!
> 
> (to the confirmation, not Jon's last point)


Thanks for joining this up Gavin!

----------

