# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Winter Losses 2011/2012

## Neils

Possibly still a bit early, but as there are a few posts here and there mentioning it I thought I'd kick a thread off.  

For those that remember last year when I tried to put a broader picture together from discussions across all the main UK beekeeping forums I'm not intending to do that again this year. It was useful and broadly matched up with the BBKA's winter loss survey,but it was a lot of work and the nature of Forums means that I think it'll be hard to get a truly accurate picture, very few people are going to go on a public forum and announce they lost all their bees I suspect.

After last year where technically all three of my colonies made it through winter, but only one subsequently built up enough to actually do anything I'm not reading too much into the signs of life in all my colonies right now. (3x 14x12 hives and 2 Nucs).

One of the main colonies is very light on stores at the moment, but was a small colony combined with another small nuc to try and give them a chance to make it through winter.

For those who have unfortunately lost colonies this winter, do you have any insight as to what might have caused it?

----------


## Trog

According to OH who checked the candy on each hive and removed a few mouseguards while I was away doing SBA stuff, no losses chez Trog so far.  Two nucs wintered side by side in a Twinstock seem stronger than another wintered in a full size b/b with dummy boards and lots of polystyrene but only the first spring inspection will reveal all!

----------


## fatshark

One mini-nuc lost to suspected Nosema.
One hive lost to starvation and/or stupidity (the bees, not mine).  Swarm caught in June, looked fine but never built up much and refused to take down much in the way of stores.  Cosseted them in a poly hive, with fondant present all the time, but still looked like they starved - I say their stupidity because they had every opportunity to take fondant.  Interestingly, grafted from the same queen late in the year and both nucs and mini-nucs from her are still going very well.  Nice dark well behaved bees, but will have to watch how they do this Spring.
Here in the Midlands it's been much milder than last year, with bees still flying on Christmas day.  Both colonies that succumbed appear to have done so in the early Feb cold snap.

----------


## Gscot

Started with 2 colonies last year which produced a good batch of honey.Made up a split in Aug. which build up to about 9 frames going into winter.Treated them all with O.A. in Dec.After treating I noticed hundreds of dead bees outside 1 of the hives the following day the hive was dead.It was the first time I used O.A..I done every thing by the book.Plenty of bees and stores in hive

----------


## Jon

If your bees have nosema Oxalic acid kills them off apparently, but they would have died anyway from the nosema.

Mine are all still alive bar a single frame of bees with a queen which I was generously calling a nuc back in December.
The rest are fine but I have not yet had a chance to estimate colony strength.
15 colonies, 3 nucs and 4 apideas.

----------


## drumgerry

Went into winter with *7* colonies and all alive as of last week in the mild weather.  All have plenty of bees and stores and were given an Apistan treatment in September followed by an oxalic trickle on 23rd December.  It's been an exceptional winter here in Speyside with very little snow on the ground and temperatures only as low as -8C - but not for a sustained period of time.  

Not counting my chickens quite yet as I've obviously not had a proper look at them.

----------


## Jon

This is looking like a good year for winter survival.
Local beekeepers I have spoken to have reported next to no losses.
Figures I have heard so far from various friends and acquaintances are:

13/15, 14/14, 8/8, 2/2, 3/3, 6/6

Only a couple lost out of about 50 but noone has had a chance to look inside yet.
It is supposed to be 14c on Saturday so that might give an opportunity for a quick check.

There is just one beekeeper I have heard of with heavy losses,  in a neighbouring BKA, and he used some home made concoction for treating varroa. When will they learn?

----------


## drumgerry

Similar story from someone I spoke to.  They were perplexed as to why all 4 of their colonies had died.  I asked did you treat for Varroa?  Answer - no.  

I wonder if some new beekeepers particularly search around the web and discover the organic/top bar hive crowd where non-treatment seems to be the norm.  Their attitude that you need to let "weak" colonies die off and breed from the survivors seems a terrible over-simplification of the multi-faceted relationship between the honeybee and the varroa mite.  A good example I saw mentioned on the Irish list was that the colony which shows most resistance to Varroa might succumb to Nosema or isolation starvation and you'll never have the chance to use the genetics of that colony because you didn't give it the help it needed.  It's akin to letting a prize tup (or in my case alpaca stud male) succumb through lack of a worming drench.

----------


## Jon

I think that is my post on the Irish list you are quoting from!!!
But yes, I worm my dog and treat for fleas rather than sitting back waiting for her to develop resistance to ecto and endoparasites. She would not thank me for the laissez faire attitude.
The non treatment folk are generally quite naive but the guy I mentioned above is in his 70s and has been keeping bees a long time. He has taken bad advice from a local 'guru' who cant keep his bees alive either. last year his losses were 12/12. I can't understand how the gurus who have catastrophic losses every year manage to keep the acolytes happy.

----------


## drumgerry

Ah well Jon - you're posts are as interesting and instructional there as they are here.

Beekeeping does seem to suffer rather a lot from individuals with messianic (sp?) tendencies I've found!  Self appointed gurus with too many opinions and not enough to back them up.  It does make me sad though when I hear of the old-timers taking losses through lack of up to date knowledge.  Varroa is merciless though as I'm sure we all know

----------


## Neils

The firs...Second rule about natural beekeeping club is we don't talk about dead bees?

----------


## drumgerry

So what you're saying is that Phil Chandler and Brad Pitt have a lot in common?!

----------


## Neils

> So what you're saying is that Phil Chandler and Brad Pitt have a lot in common?!


 I was thinking more along the lines of



Nellie, I've de-animated your Gif for those sensitive souls who don't expect to see violence on SBAi. G.

----------


## voytech104

Hi guys,
It's been a while I visited this forum but I guess I need to start again!
I checked my three hives last sunday and all three alive and well  :Wink:  I'm a tad surprised as it was quite late when nucs were purchased. Started feeding them weak syrup and intending to open them up and check strength - but need to wait for nicer weather. i have no idea how and when to treat against varroa as I did nothing last year... I cannot find a single mite though... 


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?utpzbq

----------


## Jon

> The rest are fine but I have not yet had a chance to estimate colony strength.


I checked some today and they were a bit weaker than expected but all should be fine apart from one which had a drone laying queen. I squashed the drone laying queen and will requeen it tomorrow.

voytech, you are dicing with death not treating varroa. I rarely see a mite but sometimes when I treat I get a drop of hundreds.

----------


## Gscot

Hi Jon
Was wondering where you get fertile queens at this time of year

----------


## Jon

I have 4 in apideas which overwintered.

----------


## voytech104

Ok, I'll rephrase  :Wink:  can anybody tell me when and how to treat varroa this spring? 
I don't want to kill them nor neglect them... 


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?qzesym

----------


## Jon

Best bet is probably Apiguard gel, although if you have a really strong colony some would recommend the shook swarm.

the bbka site has a couple of threads on spring treatment of mites.

----------


## Gscot

Would help if I could but a novice myself and would prob. give wrong information.

----------


## gavin

Wojciech!  Lovely to see you back.

Jon is probably right that one of the thymol methods such as Apiguard is the best in spring.  An alternative is drone brood trapping as the colony's expansion gets really underway in about two months.  For that you put shallow frames each side of the expanding broodnest and cut off the drone brood formed underneath once it is sealed.  However you need to monitor first - you might not have a serious Varroa problem anyway.

The BBKA forum that Jon mentioned is a pale shadow of its former self after those running it alienated most of those posting there.  The advice there lately seems (apart from that from Jon, Adam and Ruary) to have been similar to the ineffective methods such as sugar dusting promoted on a 'natural' beekeeping forum.  Shook swarming, another tool mentioned there, is hardly used in Scotland and isn't an appropriate method until colonies are a lot stronger than they are now.

----------


## Jon

> The BBKA forum that Jon mentioned is a pale shadow of its former self after those running it alienated most of those posting there.


That is true, although it is picking up again in spite of the efforts to destroy it through the imposition of naff software. Slowly but surely, and at great expense, functionality is starting to return!

----------


## voytech104

Thanks Jon and Gavin - quick and concrete advice as always  :Wink: 
Seeing those three hives buzzing last Sunday gave me wings for new season ;p


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?5o0wpm

----------


## Stromnessbees

I just checked the 10 hives in my garden, they are alive and well.

 :Smile:

----------


## Neils

Just had a look at the 4 on the allotment apiary.

One is looking very nice indeed and is already raising drone brood, but is covering 4 nice looking frames of brood.  The other went into winter a lot weaker for various reasons but I'm reasonably hopeful and it has 2 frames of brood at the moment, I've given this a feed as it's very light on stores but there is nectar coming in.

One Nuc looks OK, only a frame and half of brood at the moment but I'm reasonably happy that one will build up nicely.  The other is not looking too good, There was almost no brood at all just a small patch of eggs. I don't think this one is likely to last much longer, there just aren't enough bees in there. There's no obvious signs of disease. If it's still hanging in there in a couple of weeks I might give it a frame of brood, but I wasn't going to weaken the strong colony at this point, I've given it a bit of syrup in any case just to see what it does.

----------


## Jon

If you put it in an apidea or a double apidea, it will do far better.
These ones are really just about keeping the queen alive for a couple of months in case you need one in an emergency.

----------


## Neils

At the moment I'm not sure I'd put her in another colony, it was a pretty strong nuc going into winter so I'm not entirely sure where there is so little brood at the moment. Sticking them in an apidea might not be a bad idea though.

----------


## Jon

These ones are often basket cases. A colony with just a couple of frames of old bees and very little brood at this time of year is on the way out unless you really want to save it and have the time to give it TLC. I have saved a few like this and they can sometimes build up very well later in the year if you add emerging brood.
The thing is, you don't want to mess up other colonies by taking brood from them in March so my strategy is to christen an apidea and just keep the queen alive in case of an emergency.
Even if you don't rate the queen, it could be used to keep a colony going until you can requeen with a better one.

----------


## Neils

I'm only wary of the queen because of the overall state of that nuc and the lack of brood. Every other colony has brood in all stages, this one has a small patch of eggs and nothing else. She was laying fine last year and the Nuc was fairly strong going into winter. For now I've done nothing than stick a bit of syrup on. My only concern about sticking them in an apidea is they'll lose what little brood they do have now and have to draw a frame or two out in the apidea whereas give it a week or so and I can give them a donor frame of emerging bees from one of the other hives.

----------


## gavin

If you were desperate to save the queen (which you are not it seems) you could swap positions of the nucs when the bees are flying.

----------


## Neils

Good point, I think at the moment I'm not desperate enough to save her at the expense of weakening another colony.  I'm always torn when this happens, on the one hand I don't want to lose a colony, on the other, I don't want to 'encourage' bees that can't get through winter (or may be harbouring other nasties). The Main hive that's my candidate for queen rearing was just what I want to see, plenty of stores still in the hive and a good 4.5 frames of brood in all stages when I looked yesterday.

----------


## EmsE

So far so good with no losses so far out of the 5 hives I took into the winter. 2 hives went into the winter with less than 4 frames of bees, 1 of which i didn't expect to make this far as it wouldn't take any food down in the autumn despite not having very much in the way of stores. I did give it a deep frame of sealed stores from my strongest hive and after Christmas put fondant on which seems to have kept them going. When I checked at the weekend it had no stores except the fondant so gave it a super of honey that I'd entered into the local honey show. Hopefully that should be enough for now but will keep a close watch. There was a small patch of sealed & unsealed brood so fingers crossed it will pick up. If not they'll get a new queen once one of the other colonies raise one.


One of the hives was stronger that what it was when I last checked in the autumn. I didn't look any further than just a peak under the crown board to make sure there were stores in the top box.

----------


## Jon

Hi Emse.
If the colony is small giving it extra space up above with a super will not be helpful as all the heat will rise and make life more difficult.
Small colonies are better put into nucs. Alternately you can restrict the area of the brood box with dummy frames or a divider with insulating material behind it. A small colony will grow more quickly in a small or restricted box as it can maintain a larger brood area due to less loss of heat.
At this time of year I have small colonies reduced to half the brood box and I only give them more space as they need it.
Swapping a couple of empty deeps from the brood box for a couple of full shallows from the super would be another option.

----------


## EmsE

Hi Jon, 
I kept the 2 small ones on a single brood with the dummy board in place (however admit that was more to do with the risk of them being blown over) I Had wanted to put them in the same box with a bee tight divider between them hoping that would help them both through but didn't get around to it. I really need to get some nucs made up for cases like this don't I. The one I made out of a set of old draws didn't go down well with the bees as 2 colonies absconded so am wondering if the wood had been treated for woodworm?

Do you think it will have a chance of becoming a successful colony?

----------


## Jon

You can make up insulated dummy boards to reduce the space quite quickly out of scraps of polystyrene such as the stuff a new fridge is protected with. Check the skips!

These are the ones I use, all shapes and sizes.

dummy boards.jpg

A small colony with a laying queen should survive with a bit of TLC but it will definitely struggle in a large space. Good to get all your colonies through the winter so far.

----------


## Beehive

Had a look in to check stores and was very happy to see that 11 out of 11 had made it hrough the winter. A couple may need some additional feeding soon. Just waiting now for a warm day to check and see if all the queens are ok and laying.

----------


## kevboab

Popped along to apiary yesterday afternoon as weather was superb. No sign of activity in one colony so popped lid to find out colony was deceased. Next move is to get a sample of bees from it and ensure it wasnt disease that knocked them off. Pretty sure it was lack of numbers through cold spell though but no harm in checking.

----------


## susbees

Love the way people report losses before first inspection...lol. On that basis our survival was 17/17 (including quite small nucs) with all taking in pollen in some way or other. On further observation I flagged one as failed supersedure DLQ....one dud. And this week one turned out to be failing with little brood: queen was quickly swapped into adjacent hive which had been antsy all autumn/fondant check...possible nosema (no signs of dysentery and last varroa drop nothing special) I suppose but queen was laying. We'll see. Meanwhile snotty queen (from strong snotty hive) was moved up the apiary and put into a nuc with no queen but plenty bees - testing (I expect short-term but she lays well) the theory that grumpy queens can dislike something about their situation. Again, we'll see.

And I do post sensibly on the BBKA forum too, Gavin....even when RP tells everyone that he never uses any insulation and we're all namby pambying our poor (quality) bees! Sigh...

----------


## Jon

Roger lives about 400 miles south of most of us. Top insulation can do no harm. Why let the heat escape.
I only found one drone layer out of 18 - a late supersedure queen who failed to mate and her replacement has been laying well for a fortnight.
A few of them are small but I am optimistic these will all make it now. I got a proper inspection done on all of them during last week's heatwave.

----------


## chris

I live about 1000 miles south of Scotland but still have overhead insulation all year round.It has nothing to do with warmth, but rather having a dry cluster in winter and comb that doesn't sag in summer.
I went into winter with 7 full colonies and 2 weak late swarms that I didn't think would make it. They didn't , but the other colonies are fine and building better than usual.The big problem that is coming up is lack of rain. Yesterday was the 2nd rainy day of the year. I thought the bees were going to have problems finding nectar, but they are obviously good at it judging by the amount of comb they've filled.

----------


## beeanne

One appears queenless, one is doing fine. The broodless, eggless (therefore assumed queenless) one had an accident involving a flooded river, and a swim in Nov, so not really a "health"  issue...

----------


## gavin

Hi Anne

Excellent to see that you are still a beekeeper, even if some of them are orphans.

It has been a good winter for them here, although I say that slightly nervously as I haven't been to see them for around a fortnight and it hasn't been good foraging weather for ages ...

G.

----------


## beeanne

This'll be the first hive I've lost, & am gutted! Got through the previous 2 cold winters fine, then loose one in this gentle mild winter - v irritating. However, that's the last time I rescue a hive by kayak. I hope.

----------


## gavin

Didn't something similar happen to you before?  Next time, I *insist* that you get someone to take pictures to liven up the forum!  Jon has shared one of his donkey whispering - you rescuing a hive by kayak might top that.  

All I could have offered so far was me dropping my trousers in the orchard to release a trapped bee, but thankfully there was no-one taking pictures.   :EEK!:

----------


## Jon

Was it trapped in your trousers of were to trying to scare it out of some other place.

Enough to make all airborne bees return to the safety of the colony.

----------


## gavin

It seemed comfortable enough where it was and slightly reluctant to fly off.  I just continually forget to tuck the breeks into my socks when I'm having a major rummage in the hives.  The poor bee had enough to deal with climbing up inside a trouser leg to go delving any deeper into trouble.

----------


## Calum

Hi ho,
so latest I am reading in Germany is that they are starting to point the finger at poor quality (cheap) winter feed for many winter losses. Too many complex sugars and high Hydroxymethylfurfural levels.. You are what you eat applies to bees too.

----------


## Jon

Have losses be worse than usual in Germany? 
It is too early to have results of the winter survey in the UK but it looks like being a good year with minimal losses.

----------


## Bridget

> Hi ho,
> so latest I am reading in Germany is that they are starting to point the finger at poor quality (cheap) winter feed for many winter losses. Too many complex sugars and high Hydroxymethylfurfural levels.. You are what you eat applies to bees too.


Some of this a bit over my head, however what do they mean by this?  Poor quality sugar syrup made with cheap/wrong type of sugar? ditto fondant?   I thought that was about it for winter feeding or do you feed them other stuff in Germany.  I presume you had a pretty hard first half of the winter but a warm spring but my presumption is based on snowfalls throughout Europe which meant good early skiing with warmer weather from mid Feb.

----------


## Calum

Hi
so the editorial in this months 'die biene' was about bee feed.
Due to high Hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) levels 700 colonies were proven lost in holland in 2009. They think that might be a reason for high losses in some areas this year - the sugar price has climbed steeply (due to - sugar made methanol being added to petrol in the EU). So some beekeepers, as ever, have opted for cheaper alternatives. Sugar for human consumption can have any level of HMF (caused by strong heating or due to storage over a long periods) as it doesnt do us any harm. Some beekeepers have probably assumed if it is good enough for human consumption, it is good enough for bees. Wrongly. 
Some processed syrups have polysaccharides which are not so easily / efficiently digested by the bees.
The final point they made was, its better to make sure the feed you buy is specifically for bees, as if it says it on the tin, and all your bees die you can get compensation. Otherwise tough luck.

Could be an explanation why some beekeepers lose 10% and others 80% in one area where they are combating varroa with the same methods (also in interaction Varroa-feed-colony strength-nosema level-queen age,,,). Some of it is over my head too..

----------


## Neils

I'd read some basic reports from the US about HMF levels in High Fructose Corn Syrup which is a fairly common replacement for Sucrose syrup over there given the price but largely ignored it given the relative rarity of the stuff over here.

I've heard from a few people before that an attitude that it is "better" for bees to remove all the honey and feed them syrup is prevalent within europe generally and especially in Germany, is that a fair "accusation"?

Around this area feeding sugar over winter was very common, over the past few years increasingly I'm hearing, anecdotally, of more and more people starting to consider that bees are better off wintering on (their own) honey.

----------


## Calum

> I've heard from a few people before that an attitude that it is "better" for bees to remove all the honey and feed them syrup is prevalent within europe generally and especially in Germany, is that a fair "accusation"?


Yes it is a fair accusation. 
but 'wood' honey that you get at the end of the season tends to have high mineral / ballast levels - this leads to the bees 'digestive tracts' filling up faster, a problem in long cold winters. Also the wood honey has much more Maltose which is harder to digest apparently.
The himalayan balsam is no problem and is left in/welcomed.

----------


## Neils

That bit of context was generally missing and is a similar line of reasoning to Ivy honey here.

----------


## Jon

I bought about 250k of sugar at 50p kilo last autumn from a guy in a local BKA who gets tons of it for beekeepers every year. It is stuff in 25k sacks which has got a bit damp and is unfit for human consumption. I fed about 6-8k with thymol to most of my colonies and they didn't have any problems with it. My bees came through winter better than usual and are at a good strength. If I don't feed syrup I get the brood box full of ivy honey every autumn and that is certainly not ideal for overwintering. If you check that Youcel paper I have posted a couple of times the thymol is supposed to be a big help at reducing nosema levels.

----------


## Jimbo

Our association winter loss figures are in. 93 colonies went into winter with only 5 losses giving 88 colonies. Last season we also produced over 2,000 lbs of honey. Not bad for the wet and windy west of Scotland.

----------


## Jon

Hi Jimbo. I don't have the figures to hand but my bka will be something similar. We probably have more like 200 colonies between the members as there is one guy with 40 and a couple like myself with 15-20. I don't think anyone has lost more than one or possibly two and the majority have lost none at all. A stack of people including some beginners have successfully overwintered queens in apideas as well.
I noticed the poll on BKF has surveyed hundreds and the reported losses there are minimal as well.
A good winter all round.

----------


## gavin

It all came right for you in the west last year.  Colonies managed to build up by July when the weather turned and moist ground and warm spells brought the nectar flooding in - according to Ian Craig anyway.  So they produced a lot of honey and went into the winter healthy.

Here in the east we had a continuing wet summer and colonies at starvation level.  Those that could benefit from the Himalayan balsam at the end of the year recovered but many were in a poor state going into winter.  

Then last Sunday this was posted on the Beekeeping forum by that man White, taken from the Sunday Times.  Someone seems to be at least thinking that the east - west difference can be ascribed to pesticide exposure.  Hmmmnn .....
*
From the Sunday Times 8 April:*

_An excerpt from an article by Charles Clover ...._ 

It’s going to be an interesting year because Chris Connolly, a researcher
specialising in the effect of such substances on the brain, predicts a
flood of new evidence about neonicotinoids. Already published is a paper
identifying “neonics” — which are soluble and contained in seed dressings —
in dandelions. Another shows that bees can be killed by the contaminated
dust emitted by seed drills. Yet another shows that these nerve agents
affect mammals and may adversely affect human health, especially the
developing brain. What else has been missed? Has anyone looked for effects
on butterflies, other insects or birds? Not yet.

We are, at last, asking the right questions, but the solution may not be to 
ban neonics as we don’t know that they are all equally harmful, and the
alternatives may not be any better. Yet we aren’t recording evidence that
would help us stamp out the worst neonics. When the arable east of Scotland
has bee colony failures at roughly 15% and the non-arable west has only a
tenth as many failures, we should be looking at where each chemical is used
in case patterns emerge.

----------


## Calum

> Yes it is a fair accusation. 
> but 'wood' honey that you get at the end of the season tends to have high mineral / ballast levels - this leads to the bees 'digestive tracts' filling up faster, a problem in long cold winters. Also the wood honey has much more Maltose which is harder to digest apparently.
> The himalayan balsam is no problem and is left in/welcomed.


And I forgot, if the feed crystallizes in the frame it is of no use to the bees, as they cannot go and gather water to make it into an (edible) solution. Nasty pictures of dead bees of frames full of feed in this month’s 'die Biene'.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Have losses be worse than usual in Germany? 
> It is too early to have results of the winter survey in the UK but it looks like being a good year with minimal losses.


_Die Institute rechnen laut eines Rundschreibens des Deutschen  Imkerbundes mit einem Verlust von 30-50 % in diesem Winter. Das sind  180.000 - 300.000 Bienenvölker._ 

http://www.imkerforum.de/showthread....830#post305830

... the German Beekeepers' Association is expecting losses of 30 to 50 %, that's 180,000 to 300,000 colonies.

There are strong suspicions that low level poisoning by pesticides is a major factor: 

Germany has huge areas of mais grown for biomass and for silage, the bees collect the contaminated pollen and the brood reared from it is shorter lived and less resistant to other challenges.

----------


## Neils

So what is Germany doing that is different to the rest of the world to see losses like that?

Maize is grown elsewhere in the world with bees, elsewhere in the world is using the same pesticides and seeing increases in bee numbers.

----------


## Jon

> [I]
> There are strong suspicions that low level poisoning by pesticides is a major factor:


Hi Doris. You need to present evidence that this is happening in the field. Most of the papers which claim poisoning show problems at levels much higher than field realistic. Strong suspicions is not science.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Hi Doris. You need to* present evidence that this is happening in the field*. Most of the papers which claim poisoning show problems at levels much higher than field realistic. Strong suspicions is not science.


This is happening in the filed, how many examples do you want?



> ich war gestern als Gast bei einem Imkerstammtisch. Hier die Zusammenfassung der Verluste:
> 
> Imker1:* 100%*  (16 Völker) fast alle schon im Herbst (imkert seit 50 Jahren)
> Imker2: *100%* (4 Völker) auch alle im Herbst
> Imker3: *100%* (2 Völker)
> Imker4: *30%* (4 von 12) 
> Imker5: *0* Verlust (2 Völker) Neuimker


http://www.imkerforum.de/showthread....179#post306179 

The quote is about a rather sad beekeepers' meeting in Germany, as you can see from their % of losses.

----------


## Jon

Is the poster talking about colony losses or pesticide kills?
I know one person this year who lost 18/20 as he did not treat properly for varroa and the previous winter a member of my bka lost 27/28 for the same reason.
The older pesticides which are sprayed used to kill bees regularly.
There have been dozens of studies carried out which do not show problems with neonicotinoids at field realistic doses.
The exception I can think of is the bumblebee study at Stirling.

There are many possible reasons for colony losses. Assuming it 'has' to be pesticides is fuzzy thinking and bad science. It could of course be something to do with pesticides but that has to be demonstrated.
The RFID radio transmitter studies look like a good method to follow.

The problem with most studies, if you read them and check pesticide levels administered to the bees in the study, is that the dosage is way above field realistic so they do nothing more than prove that insecticide kills insects and that poison is poisonous. We all know that already. The recent Harvard study used levels of Imidacloprid up to 400 times that found in pollen and nectar. It initially looked at field realistic dosages but when this was showing no effect the racked everything up massively and killed 15/16 colonies in the study. hardly ethical, imho.

Getting all pesticide use banned is not going to happen so I think the strategy should be to develop as much chemical free production as possible and stick with the pesticides which are least harmful to bees and other invertebrates.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> So what is Germany doing that is different to the rest of the world to see losses like that?
> 
> Maize is grown elsewhere in the world with bees, elsewhere in the world is using the same pesticides and seeing increases in bee numbers.


It's diffilult to establish how many losses beekeepers have, especially in other countries. It all depends on* who collects the data and how they are presented.
*
Often *beekeepers are reluctant to admit losses* and I wonder how many colonies die unreported, as the beekeepers blame themselves and feel ashamed. 

Just look at the thriving business of supplying nucs and queens, *this should not be necessary if there were not massive losses in the first place.*

Maybe this would be a better way to establish losses: by monitoring sales of nucs, as I refuse to believe that most of them go to new beekeepers - Or else we would have a beekeeper-epidemic.  :EEK!:

----------


## Jon

Doris that is all unsubstantiated conspiracy theory. Best stick to the facts.
My bees are beside oil seed rape and they do well on it.
The biggest problem with maize is the risk of toxic dust during seed drilling in May. This is what produced the massive losses in Germany in 2008.
Bear in mind neonicotinoids have been in use since the mid 90s. CCD was first reported in the US in 2006. Why have bees in Germany generally done well before this year. You better stop putting bits in bold like borderbeeman or noone will take the argument seriously!




> Or else we would have a beekeeper-epidemic.


We do!  The bbka membership is now over 20,000 and just a few years ago it was about 10,000.
The bbka also reports that uk colony numbers are up from 80,000 to over 250,000 in the past 3 years.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> The older pesticides which are sprayed used to kill bees regularly.


True, but I would add this:

_The older pesticides used to kill bees immediately.

_
The new pesticides come *with the pollen rather than with the nectar* (affinity to fatty substances), the contaminated pollen is used to rear the brood which is then shorter lived and less resistant to diseases etc.

It only takes minute quantities for these poisons to have an ongoing effect on a colony, and at critical times of the year the colonny can then just dwindle away, and* no obvious link to the pesticides can be established.*


*If you want to conduct a realistic study of pesticide damage, then you have to feed minute quantities and observe the effects on the colony throughout the year!*

----------


## Rosie

> ... Or else we would have a beekeeper-epidemic.


I thought we did.  My son thought about keeping bees on a roof in central London.  The London bka asked him not to.  They said there are so many bees now in London that they are having to feed them sugar for the winter and it's killing them!  In the same communication the LBKA spokesperson concerened offered to sell honey.

You might expect beekeepers to be a bit more realistic than average as it's difficult to keep bees alive by blind faith alone and yet we still get hearsay and dogma masquerading as science.

Rosie

----------


## Stromnessbees

> I thought we did.  My son thought about keeping bees on a roof in central London.  The London bka asked him not to.  They said there are so many bees now in London that they are having to feed them sugar for the winter and it's killing them!  In the same communication the LBKA spokesperson concerened offered to sell honey.


Since when does sugar kill bees? 
I have never fed anything else but sugar, here in Scotland and previously in Austria, and never had any problems with it. All colonies alive and well.  :Smile: 


It's sad that anybody should be discouraged from keeping bees.  :Mad: 
If they really feel there are too many hives in one area then they should rather limit the number of colonies per beekeeper than the number of beekeepers.

It's a wonderful experience to even have one or two hives, and nobody should be discouraged from doing it, and nobody has a right to stop your son to get himself a hive if he wants to go ahead anyway.

----------


## Jimbo

We do have a beekeeper epidemic in Scotland. At a recent open SBA meeting some local secretaries were stating that they were unable to deal with the demands for nucs from all the new beekeepers joining their association last year. This interest in starting beekeeping does not seem to be slowing up. As I stated in another post we ran a bee information evening for the public where over 25 people turned up. Most have joined our association which has just about doubled our membership overnight. The pressure is on now to provide nuc colonies. I don't think looking at the number of nuc colonies supplied/sold would be a good indicator to colony losses due to what ever reason

----------


## Jon

> The new pesticides come *with the pollen rather than with the nectar*


That is not correct. Neonicotinoids are found in both pollen and nectar usually at 1-2 ppb but sometimes up to 5ppb (parts per billion)
They are in all parts of the plant as their action is systemic.
If you are interested in the risks, you have to do some serious reading. I used to think like you but the more I read, the more I realized I was being fed a diet of crude propaganda from borderbeeman and his sidekicks.
The UK press is a disaster. You would think we had ccd and massive colony loss in the uk when in fact colony numbers have more than tripled in 3 years. That is a massive success story for bees but the anti pesticide campaigners are still peddling the nonsense that we have ccd and the bees are all dying. Non beekeepers are always really surprised when I tell them my bees are doing really well.
I had a dozen colonies last year, now I have 18, and I reared 110 native queens as well in our queen rearing group. Crisis? What crisis?
You need to look around you and stop reading the rubbish in the uk press and billybonkers *bolded* press releases.




> If you want to conduct a realistic study of pesticide damage, then you have to feed minute quantities and observe the effects on the colony throughout the year!


That is what happens in real life in most places and as I pointed out, colony numbers have tripled.
The big losses I see are with people who do not treat for varroa - ie, a lot of the 'natural' anti chemical leave alone beekeepers.

Use Google scholar and start reading. There have been dozens of papers published which address your concerns and before you invoke another conspiracy theory, they are not all funded by Bayer.

----------


## Jon

Mullen et al

Check out what pesticides were found and who put them there. Was it Bayer?
Doh! It was the beekeeper responsible for the highest levels.

Schneider et al




> We compared several groups of bees, fed simultaneously with different dosages of a tested substance. With this experimental approach we monitored the acute effects of sublethal doses of the neonicotinoids imidacloprid (0.15–6 ng/bee) and clothianidin (0.05–2 ng/bee) under field-like circumstances. At field-relevant doses for nectar and pollen no adverse effects were observed for either substance. Both substances led to a significant reduction of foraging activity and to longer foraging flights at doses of ≥0.5 ng/bee (clothianidin) and ≥1.5 ng/bee (imidacloprid) during the first three hours after treatment.

----------


## Stromnessbees

The question I replied to was whether German beekeepers had big losses over the winter.

The answer, taken directly from the beekeepers' mouth, is that there are some massive losses, with beginners as well as with very experienced people.

They treat for varroa, they know how to feed bees for the winter, but they can't keep them alive anymore. 

Many are at their wits end and consider giving up. 

A friend of mine in Austria lost all his 10 colonies, it happened in late autumn, I inspected the beehouse with him at Christmas.  :Frown:

----------


## Jon

I don't doubt the losses or the veracity of the beekeepers.
Surely the important thing is to find out what caused the losses instead of jumping on the 'I cannot believe it's not pesticides' bandwagon.

Of course it 'could' be something to do with a pesticide or a pesticide interaction with something else but assuming guilt without evidence is daft.
Colony loss is not evidence of pesticide kill which seems to be what you are saying.

The very worst of the research which has been carried out recently such as the harvard study has started out with the premise that it 'has' to be neonicotinoids and the study then becomes a witchhunt rather than a scientific process.

One of the problems is the way we move bees around as we could be moving novel pathogens from one population to another.
Lest we forget, varroa is a natural parasite of apis cerana which jumped species. Nosema ceranae is relatively new in our bee population as well.

I live on a big island, bigger than yours anyway!, and someone brought in bees with varroa in 2002.

If you read from the start of the thread, beekeeper after beekeeper is reporting hardly any losses and a good winter. This seems to contrast sharply with the experience in Germany. There must be a reason for that. Pesticides? Management? Pathogens? sugar feed?
We use the same neonicotinoids in The UK Ireland and Germany. Clothianidin, Thiamethoxam and Imidacloprid. So why the difference in colony losses between the different jurisdictions?

----------


## Rosie

> Since when does sugar kill bees? 
> I have never fed anything else but sugar, here in Scotland and previously in Austria, and never had any problems with it. All colonies alive and well. 
> 
> 
> It's sad that anybody should be discouraged from keeping bees. 
> If they really feel there are too many hives in one area then they should rather limit the number of colonies per beekeeper than the number of beekeepers.
> 
> It's a wonderful experience to even have one or two hives, and nobody should be discouraged from doing it, and nobody has a right to stop your son to get himself a hive if he wants to go ahead anyway.


That's exactly what I thought but advised him not to antagonise the association by ignoring their advice but to try to open up a dialogue.  He might then find out the real reason for them not wanting more bees.

Rosie

----------


## Neils

The various LBKA's have been fairly widely quoted around the place that in their view London is "saturated" with bees I'll try and dig up some of the responses around boris' bees for London scheme.

Jon, it's not just the UK where there are reasonably reliable figures showing increases in colony numbers. Spain, for example, is also showing an increase in colonies since 1990. The US appears to be on a general slow downward trend while the numbers I saw for Germany did indicate a fairly sharp decrease.

Again I think the question is what's different about Germany?

----------


## Jon

I didn't know Spain was on the increase. They had problems with losses a few years ago as Higes et al were looking at Nosema Ceranae as a possible culprit for CCD.
Sunflowers seem to produce higher levels of neonicotinoids in their pollen and they grow a hell of a lot of sunflowers in Spain. Not sure about the levels in nectar.
Someone on Bee-L suggested that US losses have not been as bad this winter and that some of the commercial guys have losses below 15% whereas other are still losing up to 50%. Because they are competitors for pollen contracts they are not pooling information about what works and what does not. They are all exposed to the same stuff but some are handling their colonies differently.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Again I think the question is what's different about Germany?


I am not sure Germany is very different from other countries:
As I wrote earlier, it's not easy to establish how many colonies are lost every winter.

It's a well known fact that bees do better in towns, away from intensive agriculture. 

I wonder if the commercial beekeepers in the USA and Spain have learned  from the past and move their bees away from intensely farmed areas to  recover and prepare for winter.


Germany has experienced a massive increase in mais production, and small  villages, where most of the beekeeping takes place, are often  surrounded by green deserts, devoid of all life but mais.
Those beeeepers usually can't or don't want to move their bees elsewhere, as they mainly do it as a hobby.

645587_m1t1w300q75s1v58806_mais.jpg




> So habe sich in den vergangenen sechs Jahren die Anzahl der  Biogasanlagen im Land auf rund 700 Anlagen mehr als verdoppelt.


_- The number of biogas plants has more than doubled in the last 6 years.
_
http://www.ka-news.de/region/karlsru...art6066,563754 

The contaminated pollen might be all that's available for the bees at certain times.

----------


## Neils

The data I saw started from 1990 to 2010. There is an obvious question as to how much of that colony increase is due to imports/queen rearing efforts, the removal of which from the numbers might give a more pessimistic view as we saw a few years back here with the media reporting 30% year on year losses and ignoring even splits from artificial swarming.

Might the difference in colony numbers/losses be attributed to a difference in how the raw data is collected/collated between the varying countries?

If it were possible to exclude imported bees/queens from the uk figures, for example, what would our colony growth/loss numbers look like?

----------


## Neils

> Germany has experienced a massive increase in mais production, and small  villages, where most of the beekeeping takes place, are often  surrounded by green deserts, devoid of all life but mais.
> Those beeeepers usually can't or don't want to move their bees elsewhere, as they mainly do it as a hobby.
> 
> The contaminated pollen might be all that's available for the bees at certain times.


Is there a variety that is insect pollinated? i was under the impression that it was wind pollinated.  If that accounts for their sole source of pollen that might be a worrying indicator, but I'd suggest that the wider issue is the dearth of other forage resulting in bees resorting to collecting from maize to begin with.

If we were to look at the UK, if bees only had OSR, rather than as part of a"balanced diet" would we begin to see issues around colony losses because their sole source of food contains levels of Neonicotinoid rather than the situation we see currently where bees do well enough on it that beekeepers deliberately place hives to forage it, presumably once the OSR has finished other, uncontaminated food sources give bees enough time to metabolise and be rid of the pesticides so there overall effect is minimal?

So can you posit a potential difference between Germany and other countries as possibly being that much of the areas where bees are kept are effectively monocultures growing a crop that isn't great for bees to begin with with potential exposure to presticides on that crop making a bad situation worse?

----------


## Jon

> It's a well known fact that bees do better in towns, away from intensive agriculture.


That's true but more likely to do with better forage.
Did you know they use neonicotinoid products in parks and gardens as well?

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16699

Billybonkers was calling to have these products *banned* in gardens just last week.
I would actually tend to agree with him as these products are quite unnecessary for home or garden use.

But in spite of this we can all see that bees do well in gardens.

I got 100 lbs of honey and 4 nucs from one in my garden last summer. That's the kind of beekeeping problem I like!

Nellie hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the dearth of forage. This is the problem with intensive agriculture/monoculture rather than pesticide use imho.

Nellie, maize is wind pollinated but bees will collect the pollen especially if there is little other pollen available. I have watched my bees collect pollen from my sweetcorn plants on the allotment but it is unusual and it is not a particularly attractive pollen. Obviously there was no agent orange or whatever on my allotment. Where maize is grown you tend to get thousands of acres of it with little other forage. If herbicide is used with it as in 'roundup ready' varieties this eliminates any weed forage for the bees.
Monoculture is bad for bees. No doubt about that at all.
LOL just remembered that concept of roundup ready threads which were suggested due to Eric's deviation from the topic.




> Germany has experienced a massive increase in mais production


Where did you get that from Doris. I thought they had always grown a lot of maize in Germany. Has there been a significant increase in the last year or two?

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Billybonkers was calling to have these products *banned* in gardens just last week.


Not a bad idea - careful with the _bold_, though!  :Wink: 

Paris is way ahead of London there:




> Bertrand Delanoëthe mayor of Pariswas behind Paris _Plages_, as well as several of the citys other inventive programs, many of them environmentally friendly. He brought the extensive Velib bike-rental project,  and a system of non-polluting tramways is nearly complete. He banned  the use of pesticides in public landscaping and widened bus lanes to  encourage public-transport use.


http://ecohearth.com/eco-blogs/eco-i...taycation.html

----------


## Jon

There should be a special place on every forum for *ironic* bolding!

Doris I agree with you on a lot of stuff, especially the proactive stuff which people in power can implement to create habitat and reduce environmental degradation.

The thing about neonicotinoids is that I believe the older pesticides are even worse for bees and also for mammals, ie that includes us.
My stance is about living in the real world as opposed to waiting for some kind of organic agriculture nirvana to emerge.
Organic yields are typically 30-40% of 'traditional' fertilizer/pesticide based yields so we would have to bring more than double the land area into production. I wonder what would that do to habitat for some species.
Poco a poco as they say in Mexico. Individuals could take more responsibility for producing better habitat for wildlife around their own homes.
It is not just about pesticides.

----------


## gavin

Good to see you contributing again, Doris.

I'm in favour of always keeping an open mind on pesticides (in both directions) and wouldn't want to rule out an involvement in these German bee losses, but ..... there is plenty of existing data which points firmly away from farm pesticides.  You could argue, of course, that the sampling in this study was directed to oilseed rape and not maize, but nevertheless surely maize will not be that different?

http://pub.jki.bund.de/index.php/JKA...e/view/141/126

It is a study of 1200 colonies and 120 beekeepers, conducted by bee researchers who clearly knew what they were doing - very unlike that of the Harvard medical researchers who seemed to be on a mission to try to prove a point rather than dig for the truth.  In 215 bee bread samples in colonies largely foraging on OSR primarily fungicides, varroacides and herbicides were found.  2004-2008 and continuing.  Colonies all over Germany.  Rates of losses up to 36.5% in Halle 2007/2008, but generally a lot lower. 

Pesticides?  Lots of coumaphos (eeek!).  In the first year they looked for imidacloprid and found none in nectar/honey samples, and only two out of 48 samples at the limit of detection (1 ppb) in pollen.  In the second and third years they looked for a broader range of pesticides.  In 215 bee bread samples they never found clothianidin but did find thiacloprid (a neonic thought to be less harmful to bees), sometimes at quite high levels.

The authors note that autumn Varroa counts correlate with winter colony losses.  I've plotted their data - colony loss % for the region/year along the bottom and Varroa level (% adults infested in autumn) up the side of the graph.

german_losses.jpg

On that basis I'd take some convincing that the first assumption on seeing more heavy losses in Germany should be that pesticides are to blame.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> My stance is about living in the real world as opposed to waiting for some kind of organic agriculture nirvana to emerge.
> Organic yields are typically 30-40% of 'traditional' fertilizer/pesticide based yields so we would have to bring more than double the land area into production.


Now, you are talking to an organic farmer here who can prove to you that these statements are not true. 
Since we turned our farm organic we have increased the productivity of the land, and that's without any fertilizer input.
And remember, nitrogenous fertilizer has to be produced using a lot of energy, and then it has to be transported and then it has to be spead, ... all inputs that farmers worldwide could do without. 
At the same time you get wonderful wildlife alongside healthy food, as well as soil regeneration rather than destruction.

... But this is a whole new topic of course.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> The authors note that autumn Varroa counts correlate with winter colony losses.  I've plotted their data - colony loss % for the region/year along the bottom and Varroa level (% adults infested in autumn) up the side of the graph.
> 
> german_losses.jpg


Gavin, I think the Germans are just not buying into these studies anymore.

It's not difficult to set one up in a way that it will produce the desired data, and if necessary numbers can always be tweaked into the 'right' direction. 

There is just too much money involved in the pesticide business, it's difficult to imagine that authors of that kind of studies can be fully independent.

----------


## Jon

Doris I am also an organic guy, small scale. I have my garden, an allotment, and a couple of acres which we work organically at the project in Mexico. I just got £4000 out of Lloyds TSB for a small polytunnel project in Mexico which I have to sort out in July when I will be back there.
I have a big collection of permaculture and organic agriculture books and leaflets in both English and Spanish and I have attended a number of conferences and been to many organic agriculture based projects including Steiner communities. What I have learned from all that is that organic agriculture is viable, albeit with reduced yields, and also that people who practice organic agriculture often act like devotees of a religious cult. ie they lose the ability to look rationally at the evidence.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Doris I am also an organic guy, small scale. I have my garden, an allotment, and a couple of acres which we work organically at the project in Mexico. I just got £4000 out of Lloyds TSB for a small polytunnel project in Mexico which I have to sort out in July when I will be back there.
> I have a big collection of permaculture and organic agriculture books and leaflets in both English and Spanish and I have attended a number of conferences and been to many organic agriculture based projects including Steiner communities. What I have learned from all that is that organic agriculture is viable, albeit with reduced yields, and also that people who practice organic agriculture often act like devotees of a religious cult. ie they lose the ability to look rationally at the evidence.


And what I have learned is that defenders of the toxic farming system like to ignore all the hidden costs and the unsustainability of that system, as it's driven by money and not the desire to produce the best food and environment possible.

Would you compare beekeepers who care for their environment and their bees to religious cult members, too?

----------


## Jon

> Would you compare beekeepers who care for their environment and their bees to religious cult members, too?


I care for the environment and the welfare of bees as passionately as anyone alive. Some people chose to ignore available evidence like religious devotees but in most cases the intention is good. But you must know what they say the road to hell is paved with.
I think the way to go is to monitor and regulate the dangers and risks. I do not buy into all that conspiracy theory stuff which you do. I am more skeptical and cynical than your average guy or gal but I do not let my personal prejudices suspend reality.

In many ways I agree with you about the lack of sustainability but I think we have to work within the system to improve it rather than casting everything out and starting from scratch. That is a non starter in the real world.

----------


## Stromnessbees

You seem a bit obsessed to see conspiracy theories everywhere. 

I have noticed that people are starting to use common sense more and prefer to make up their own minds, rather than to believe everything that's set in front of them.

 :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> I have noticed that people are starting to use common sense more and prefer to make up their own minds, rather than to believe everything that's set in front of them.


I would love to agree with you but unfortunately I think that most people believe propaganda without checking things out for themselves. Propaganda comes from all sides, left and right, green or corporate. There are charlatans everywhere. I am no fan of Bayer, but the antics of people like borderbeeman are a disgrace. You have posted several things today which suggest that you believe the propaganda presented to you which suits your belief system and have not bothered to check out the veracity of the material presented. the only way to get to the bottom of the problems is by serious reading, research and investigation of the literature available to us.

----------


## Calum

> The question I replied to was whether German beekeepers had big losses over the winter.
> 
> The answer, taken directly from the beekeepers' mouth, is that there are some massive losses, with beginners as well as with very experienced people.
> 
> They treat for varroa, they know how to feed bees for the winter, but they can't keep them alive anymore. 
> 
> Many are at their wits end and consider giving up. 
> 
> A friend of mine in Austria lost all his 10 colonies, it happened in late autumn, I inspected the beehouse with him at Christmas.


Well you say that, but we had an awful autumn from the bees point of view. We are on the Austrian border and our club lost about 15% (of over 1000 colonies). There has been huge variation in losses, some lost none some lost 50%,- the long warm autumn give plenty of oppertunity for reinvasion, and the winterbees worked themselves harvesting late wood honey and springkraut.. The summer was awful, so queens raised after ma were dodgy at best. Still plenty of beekeepers trying out experimental varroa treatments, so I think you may be generalising there a wee bit. Year on year the number of colonies is going up just now in Germany. But I agree with your assertions that monocultures are making it very difficult in some areas.
Here is the average varroa fall i had when I treated  in december (I lost 10% of my colonies)

----------


## Jon

Hi Calum. That is some varroa drop for December. Even if you got rid of all the mites at that point the virus load would probably have severely reduced the longevity of the surviving bees.
My mantra is that control of varroa and nosema is they key to healthy bees.
Pesticides can be a problem under certain circumstances but it is usually a sideshow.

I had one colony drop about 90 mites when I applied oxalic in december but most dropped just one or two.

----------


## Calum

Hi Jon,
thats on of my best colonies just now. 12 frames of brood, drawing out foundation well in the super.
The bees were flying well into october last autumn. It stayed warm right up untill the winter arrived - so no autumn to speak of really.
I treated with formic acid 9 times in the end, once in october, but as you see there was plenty of reinvasion. Also plenty of robbing of weak colonies so pleny of colapsing colonies in the 'autumn'. I fight varroa as best I can, nosema - had signs of it, but not really aware of how to fight it except through rotation out old comb, and removing as much wood honey as I can (suggestions?). Another colony's drop I recorded also came out strongly, removed a drone frame from it last week, didn't find any varroa in the cells I broke open..

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Well you say that, but we had an awful autumn from the bees point of view. We are on the Austrian border and our club lost about 15% (of over 1000 colonies). There has been huge variation in losses, some lost none some lost 50%,- the long warm autumn give plenty of oppertunity for reinvasion, and the winterbees worked themselves harvesting late wood honey and _springkraut_. 
> The summer was awful, so queens raised after ma were dodgy at best. Still plenty of beekeepers trying out experimental varroa treatments, so I think you may be generalising there a wee bit.
> Year on year the number of colonies is going up just now in Germany. But I agree with your assertions that monocultures are making it very difficult in some areas.
> Here is the average varroa fall i had when I treated  in december (I lost 10% of my colonies)


Hi Calum

That's an awful lot of varroa there, I agree. 

But the conditions you describe are actually not that different from what other regions might be experiencing, like the South of England:

bad summers, warm autumns with problem honey like ivy, neighbouring hives or feral colonies without varroa treatments, monocultures taking over

Yet as far as I am aware this hasn't led to a similar explosion of varroa, or has it?

 :Confused: 


_Springkraut_ is Himalayan Balsam by the way, a plant that's very much appreciated by most beekeepers as it delivers free winter feed, but hated by others as it's very invasive and leads to the erosion of river banks.

----------


## Stromnessbees

Bavarian Television had a short report about bee losses yesterday:

They claim that the losses have been higher than ever.
The beekeeper in the clip has lost 50 of his 100 colonies. He says it started when the maize came to his area and blames the pesticides. 
The scientists and bee institutes blame varroa. 

http://blog.br-online.de/quer/voelke...-25042012.html



> Die bayerischen Imker waren nach dem Winter geschockt. Etwa die Hälfte  der Bienenvölker sind in diesem Jahr nicht wieder aufgewacht. Schon seit  Jahren dezimiert die Varoa-Milbe die Bestände. Doch diesmal weisen  viele Völker keinen Milbenbefall auf. Ein neuer Verdacht taucht auf: der  Mais. Viele Indizien sprechen dafür, dass ein eigentlich verbotenes  Mais-Insektizid für den massenhaften Bienentod in diesem Jahr  verantwortlich ist. Doch weder Landwirte noch die Politik wollen das  wahrhaben.

----------


## Calum

Hi,
I think the difference may be the density of populations.
In the 2 km around my primary bee stand are at least another 100 colonies, if I increase the radius to 5km it is more like >400.
Talking to other beekeepers the amount of varroa pictured is not unusual for this region.
Also we have a very high carnica population which generally likes large amounts of brood - so will bring with it a better climate for varroa..

----------


## Jon

> He says it started when the maize came to his area and blames the pesticides. 
> The scientists and bee institutes blame varroa. 
> 
> http://mediathek-video.br.de/?bc=_162881110&bccode=bfs


This is the problem. We have good research going on but the beekeepers want to Blame a bogeyman without any supporting evidence.
If they built a swimming pool in your town and the following year your bees died would you blame it on the swimmers?
People use faulty logic as it is easier to blame something external than consider it might be a management issue.
The same thing has happened in the US with commercial beekeepers like Dave Hackenberg wedded to blaming neonicotinoids. 
Apparently this year his survival rate was good but he has twisted the argument some way to still blame neonicotinoid pesticides.
A good definition of prejudice.

You are lucky to be in a varroa free area. Varroa or nosema can take down a big colony in a couple of weeks.
Have you not noticed how the 'natural' beekeepers who do not treat lose their colonies to varroa all the time. (and then blame pesticides)

----------


## Stromnessbees

Hi Jon

I think you still don't understand how angry German beekeepers are after losing so many colonies and being fobbed off with fabricated explanations.

Here are pictures from recent demonstrations against neonicotinoids and GM maize:

tmb_140920081044.jpg
_Get pesticides and gene technology off our planet_ (Bonn)

tmb_140920081039.jpg
_Nature needs bees - Bayer poisons bees - politicians are asleep_ (Bonn)

img_9723.jpg
(Karlsruhe)

imkerdemo.jpg
(Berlin)

----------


## Jon

Of course they are angry.
They have lost a lot of colonies.
I wonder why they were lost?
That is what we need to get to the bottom of.
Writing 'Death to Bayer the Great Satan' on a placard is not evidence of anything apart from a sense of frustration.
Holding a demonstration is evidence of holding a demonstration.

----------


## EmsE

The small colony I thought was not going to make it is now thriving with 4 frames of brood and sufficient stores. However, the small colony I thought would be fine isn't going to make it. It was a cast that I homed and it Seemed tobuild up fine going into the winter and had plenty of stores. when it had the oxalic acid treatment in winter, the cluster was over 4 seams  - much stronger than the other small colony above.

I found and marked the queen last Sunday when it was nice and warm. The queen isn't much bigger than the workers, there is only a small patch of brood (the size of the palm of a babies hand) that seems to have died out and there are very few bees in the colony. I suspect that the colony loss is due to having a poor queen and there are insufficient bees in the hive to look after brood. I had placed a contact feeder on with some syrup to help knowing that there were probably too few bees in the hive to bring in the food required but hasn't helped. I have taken the frame of brood out of the hive (with some bees) to check just to make sure there is nothing else behind this. 

Not sure if you would class this as a winter loss as the failure of the colony is likely to be a poor Queen from last year- this is the first colony that ive lost ( excluding a swarm). :Frown:

----------


## Jon

Emse. The only hope for a colony like this is a small insulated box. If it covers just two frames, put them in a 5 frame nuc with the other 3 taken up by an insulated dummy board. It could be a poor queen like you say or also nosema. Spring dwindle is very much associated with nosema.

----------


## gavin

It is always puzzling to see the yo-yoing at this time of year.  Many develop in the pattern you'd expect from early spring strength, some don't.  Could be Nosema, could be a poor queen, could be a virus, maybe other possibilities too.  If you want a Nosema check (a sample of bees or faeces spots scraped into a folded piece of paper) and don't have a microscope to hand, let me know. 

Is it a winter loss?  Well, it isn't dead yet!  When I helped with an official SBA survey we set the cut-off date at 1 May.  I know that people were asked too early this year about their losses in an SBA-associated survey.  But a loss is a loss.  This year a lot of our losses in the E will come from poor queens from the awful weather right through the mating season last year, and the poor state of many colonies going into the winter.

----------


## EmsE

Hi Jon, there is less than a cup ful of bees in the hive now and that is being optimistic on the basis that some may have been out forraging. There were no eggs in the colony, Im hoping that by removing the frame with the brood may encourage the queen to begin laying (but am not optimistic about it.)

We've had a few colony losses this spring here in the West due to poorly mated queens too due to the constant rain in may and june.
One of my objectives this year is to carry out a sample check for Nosema and learn how to check for acharine too (not that we have an issue locally with it) I know the theory, but learning to do it in practise is different. I'll let you know how I get on. I am just waiting to be questioned about what it is that im puttin in the freezer  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

If it is a cupful of bees, shake them into an apidea. Only chance you have of saving the queen.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> I'm in favour of always keeping an open mind on pesticides (in both directions) and wouldn't want to rule out an involvement in these German bee losses, but ..... there is plenty of existing data which points firmly away from farm pesticides.  You could argue, of course, that the sampling in this study was directed to oilseed rape and not maize, but nevertheless surely maize will not be that different?


I had a lengthy discussion this mornig with some German beekeepers. We were wondering if the difference lies in the different flowering times of maize and oilseed rape:

At the time *oilsseed rape* is in flower there are in general plenty of other pollen sources available which are not contaminated by the systemic  pesticides. The bees reared at this time are *summer bees* which are not expected to live very long, the turnover in the colonies is high.

At the time when *maize* is flowering there are usually very few alternative pollen sources available and the bees are forced to rear the brood on the contaminated maize pollen. The bees reared now are the *winter bees* which are meant to be very long lived and they need extra fat reserves in their body.


The consequences:

These compromised winter bees will suffer a shortened lifespan and decreased immunity. Also, as the systemic pesticides are neurotoxins, the bees' ability to detect varroa could be diminished, in which case fewer mites will be removed, allowing a massive build-up in the colony as we have seen in so many cases.

Those colonies that manage to shake off varroa can make it through to spring, but succumb to nosema due to suppressed immune system or their bee numbers dwindle away due to the shortened lifespan. (Marie Celeste syndrome)


The reason why some colonies are less affected than others could lie in their foraging preferences: some might fly out of their way to collect uncontaminated pollen.
Or it could be due to timing: some colonies might produce their winter bees earlier or later than the maize flowering time and so avoid the heaviest pesticide loads.

----------


## gavin

Some of my colonies have taken mostly OSR pollen and very little else for weeks, and yet thrived on it.  A couple are now focussing mainly on it, despite the distance they have to fly this year.  They seem to like the stuff, maybe because it is quite high in protein.

It has been said (a French researcher?) that pollen may be more dangerous.  One reason could be that foragers are repelled by high levels of neonicotinoids in nectar but perhaps not in pollen, and another might be that they may metabolise the insecticides in nectar.  Certainly detections in honey are very rare but are less rare in pollen and bee bread samples.

Yes, they are neurotoxins just as most insecticides are.  But they are well tested and don't affect bees at the levels they are exposed to normally, and the bees can and do metabolise it they so any effects are short-lived.

I'm surprised to hear that colonies raise their winter bees on maize pollen. Isn't that reason enough for poor winter survival?  Maize is simply poor food for young bees, there is no need to invoke pesticides as a cause.  My apiary has little useful forage in August onwards.  Colonies that had the trip to the hills always winter much better presumably because they raised a generation of well-fed winter bees and possibly because of the protein in the honey itself.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> I'm surprised to hear that colonies raise their winter bees on maize pollen. Isn't that reason enough for poor winter survival?  Maize is simply poor food for young bees, there is no need to invoke pesticides as a cause.


No, maize pollen per se is fine:

I remember my Austrian bees taking in lots of it every season as there was a field of it right next to our garden.
That was 20 years ago, pre neonics, and I never had winter losses despite having varroa already.
- That is except for one small colony that I lost due to stupidity.

So please don't blame it on low quality.

----------


## Jon

> No, maize pollen per se is fine:


It is better than none at all but it is low quality at around 15% protein. Some pollens are over 50% protein.
Winter bees are not raised on maize pollen. Maize produces pollen late July or early august and there is an abundance of other pollens available at those times.
Bees which have a single source of pollen do not do as well as bees which can forage on multiple forage sources and that is nothing to do with pesticides.
Doris you are determined to blame pesticides for bee problems at asll costs irrespective of easily available evidence. Bad science. Wooly thinking.




> Also, as the systemic pesticides are neurotoxins, the bees' ability to detect varroa could be diminished, in which case fewer mites will be removed


Would be interested in just the tiniest shred of evidence for that statement.

----------


## voytech104

Putting whole this pesticide, herbicide discussion aside. 
I remember when I was little eating tomatoes straight from vine full of taste, smell. I remember my mother getting rid of weeds by hand from strawberries and me and my brother picking up them and eating without washing. 
I have no allergies, no stomach upsets etc. I have few grey cells left in my brain too. 
Do You honestly think that all this Wholesale/Monoculture/Pesticide controlled food is better or at least equal to chemistry free grown food? Even if it has the same protein level, the same "nutritional" values - nobody will convince me about taste values. Or maybe I love food too much  :Wink: 
And if I like it better I bet my bees will like it better too. 


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?jyk43t

----------


## Trog

Ah, yes!  Many of my tomatoes (greenhouse grown - they can't take the lively breezes here!) never make it as far as the kitchen.  There's the morning watering,  then the evening watering and the daytime hoeing or hand-weeding, both of which seem to require a tomato or two to keep me going ... and maybe the odd strawberry or pea straight from the pod ...

----------


## gavin

OK folks, this thread took a wrong turn about this point and the resulting discussion can be followed on the Orcadian pesticide thread here.

Let's keep to Scottish/UK Winter Losses here please.

----------


## Stromnessbees

Gavin, I can see your logic, that's why I have opened a thread '*Winter Losses outside the UK*' here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...outside-the-UK

----------

