# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  neonicotinoids update

## clarebee

Most of you may know that Friends of the Earth is challenging the DEFRA decision ( July 22)  to permit the use of neonicotinoid seed dressing in some places in England.
Only last week was the information on which the decision was based made available to the public.
Scotland ( Dr Aileen McLeod's office) has confirmed that there is no intention to waive the current moratorium here - but anyone interested in pollinator welfare should be aware of what happened, and how deep is the complicity of the English Parliament.   

The full text of information is available easily from the blog of Matt Shardow, CEO of Buglife.
https://www.buglife.org.uk/blog/matt...ments-revealed

It is worth reading!

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## Greengage

Im not long here myself and smiled at your post, hope you enjoy the forum, there have been numerous posts here on this topic so sit back and read and lets see if you change your mind.
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...=worst+science

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## gavin

To be fair, the issue of Dr Lu's science is simple (it is rubbish) whereas the rights and wrongs of the regulation of neonic applications to seed sown in the UK is a lot more nuanced.

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## The Drone Ranger

I am guessing that if they don't dress the deeds they just spray more ?

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## The Drone Ranger

That should be seeds darned predictive text

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## clarebee

> To be fair, the issue of Dr Lu's science is simple (it is rubbish) whereas the rights and wrongs of the regulation of neonic applications to seed sown in the UK is a lot more nuanced.


One might get the impression that the only research done is by a doctor LU.  Not so! 
There's plenty more around and increasingly pointing a finger at some neonicotinoid applications.
Can't understand why some bee-keepers are SO passionate about hanging on to it? maybe one of its exponents could explain that, as otherwise it looks a bit stange?

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## Greengage

If you google the word Neonicotiniodes you will get over 100 thousand results depending on what other words you put in, There are many different opinions both for and against their uses, i dont think beekeepers are passionate about keeping it, some say it is better than some previous chemicals used on crops other  entomologists say, the problems with bees kept in hives are colony management issues, the blood-sucking varroa mite, the miticides beekeepers themselves use to control varroa infestations and various viruses. How many hives will die this winter from starvation, if you are a member of a beekeeping group you will hear of beekeepers telling you they have no varrora because their bees exhibit hygenic behaviour so dont treat, In this months 4 seasons magazine there is an artical about treating for mites but the author says he/she has not treated for the past three years. Where is the proof that Noonicotiniodes are killing bees, I personally know where there are 155 hives and if each hive had 60,000 bees thats 9300000 bees within 40 km radius. I also count Bumblebees on a two 2km transects and there are lots of bumblebees forageing along these tracks not to mention the nests I know of. The problems are probably lack of foraging plants, habitat loss ,Habitat fragmentation and wet cold summer we have had. Wheather farmers should use neonicotiniodes or not will be a long drawn out debate Im just thankful im not a farmer trying to make a living off the land as it is a very difficult thing to do, wheather its livestock or tillage crops.

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## Jon

Neonics seem to cause more problems for Bumblebees and some other pollinators than they cause for honeybees.

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## The Drone Ranger

I see strips planted at the sides of fields to help pollinators etc
Problem is that if a field is sprayed the overspray lands on the nature strip as well so it negates any benefit
It feels like the cod quota where the fish still get caught and killed but not landed
Perhaps any subsidy or grant could be directed at having proper set aside and a sliding scale of crop subsidy which is inversely proportional to the amount of chemical input during the season

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## deanrpwaacs

A bit more research published today if you fancy a read . 
http://m.rspb.royalsocietypublishing.../1819/20152110

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.beeculture.com/catch-buzz...s-wildflowers/
Worth a read if like me you were inclined to discount the effect on bees of treated seed
My thinking was that if bee lifespan was shortened it would recover later
I'm not sure that is true now

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## gavin

The original paper came out last year and does include that incredible claim that 97% of the neonics entering a colony comes from the vegetation around arable fields:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/...nalCode=esthag

There was a response from the industry but I can read neither article without shelling out:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.est.5b05729

Anyone with access want to comment?  I'm finding it somewhat counter-intuitive that 97% comes in from wildflower sources.

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## greengumbo

http://www.sasa.gov.uk/sites/default...pe_2015-16.pdf

Survey summary released by SASA on Scottish Winter Oilseed Rape Cultivation 2015/16: Impact of the second year of Neonicotinoid Seed Treatment Restrictions

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## greengumbo

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40382086

and the paper here.....but behind a paywall.

http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...6345/1393.full

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## fatshark

A big study.
With big variation.

_Taken together, our results suggest that exposure to neonicotinoid seed treatments can have negative effects on the interannual reproductive potential of both wild and managed bees, but that these effects are not consistent across countries. The country-specific responses of honey bees and bumble bees strongly suggest that the effects of neonicotinoids are a product of interacting factors_.

You could surely flip this round to suggest banning the - as yet unknown - interacting factor to avoid the detrimental effects ... if you were from Syngenta (which I'm not).

High profile and lots of exposure certainly, but I'm not sure the it makes things much clearer, at least for honey bees.

What do you think GG?

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## James O

No access to full paper unfortunately.

What disease control did they use? Strange that they allude to different disease levels in German hives vs. UK/Hungary and then identify pesticide exposure as the culprit.
Why the high winter mortality in the UK? Same question as above arises.

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## madasafish

> Why the high winter mortality in the UK? Same question as above arises.


Piss poor beekeeping  seems as good an answer as any. The UK mortality rate recorded was iirc over 50%. As that is at least double the UK norm.. either the bees were rubbish or the beekeeper was.

If the bees were rubbish, the study for the UK is invalid...

So let's imagine neonics are banned. What are we going to replace them with? Organic? At a time when UK farmers claim to be short of labour? Not plausible or realistic.

As everyone is so quick to ban things, but not propose a realistic substitute, I fail to take the arguments seriously..

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## Greengage

I give up, there are so many confusing reports its difficult to know what to know. http://static.producer.com/wp-conten...052.1499065068
We are involved in a number of studies here on site with students. Looking at Varroa control, Sub species of bees, Urban forage, and medicinal benefits of bee venom. I was telling a friend about these and he suggested that a BSc was Bullshit, MSc More shit continued and PHD Pile it high and deep sometimes you have to wonder where all these reports and studies are going there must be vaults and vaults of them some get legs and others just disappear. Lots of kids ( they seem to be all kids with no experience of life maybe I am getting to old) come out of collage after completing these totally disillusioned and no idea where they are coming from or going too. No that's not true the last three students we had are off on a gap year to Indonesia and something about a disco on a beach to see the sun rising or is it setting ah well maybe they are right.

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## Jon

Apparently the bees used in the UK part of the study were nucs rather than full colonies.
Also, different fungicides were used in the 3 jurisdictions of the study so that is another variable it failed to take account of.

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## busybeephilip

Probably easier to manage nucs.  Anyhow its got Jullian Little from Bayer scratching his brain to come up with a new alternative (Long time no see Jullian  :Smile:  if youre reading this ,JAP)

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## The Drone Ranger

Its not surprising that insecticides harm insects
The thing about neonics is persistence in the environment
Again its not surprising that a proportion of a seed dressing  stays in the soil
Solution is buy only organic fruit and veg etc 

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## Thymallus

> Its not surprising that insecticides harm insects
> The thing about neonics is persistence in the environment


Spot on that is their designated purpose.  Persistence is not something restricted to neonics, some pyrethroids have reported half lives of up to 2 years in soils. No insecticides/pesticides are good for bees, but perhaps seed dressing vs spraying might be worth a thought in their application. Spraying does tend to kill pretty quickly whats is underneath the spray.

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## greengumbo

Update:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...l-gove-reveals

Its worth reading the scientific papers cited with an open mind if you can get access.

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## Feckless Drone

to follow up - Daniel Cressey writes a nice piece in today's issue of Nature (https://www.nature.com/news/the-bitt...icides-1.22972) on the issue. I've passed the details to the SBA magazine editor in case it can be reproduced there. The article is very accessible though a bit depressing. The combination of a highly complex biological problem that has not been particularly well addressed in early investigations, self and financial-interest, entrenched attitudes, sloppy journalism....

Bit like Scottish football I suppose.

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## Greengage

Looks like your minister is a sheep in wolfs clothing. https://leftfootforward.org/2017/11/...ut-not-others/

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## fatshark

Surely you mean 'wolf in sheep's clothing'?

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## gavin

I'd settle for a wolf in wolf's clothing. 

But on the neonic thing, there have been a slew of papers in the last couple of years that show worrying things like significant contamination around fields - and also bumble bees managing to gather pollen with relatively high levels of neonics.  It might be some of them that changed Gove's mind (and those of his advisers).

Bramble and creeping thistle were particularly high (foliage was tested). 

https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gat...t-env-2016.pdf

Here's another paper that shows that bumble bees (but not honey bees, particularly, with that explained as possibly them foraging over a wider area) can end up with contaminated pollen in their nests at higher levels than you might expect from the known levels in crop pollen. 

http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/59217/1/Draf...ur%20David.pdf

Here is Jerry Wright's work that could explain a tendency for bees to collect the more contaminated sources.  Goulson's team didn't discuss this in their paper but it could explain the results:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14414

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## Greengage

> Surely you mean 'wolf in sheep's clothing'?





> Surely you mean 'wolf in sheep's clothing'?


Yes your right I have too many wolves in sheep clothing over her at the moment so bit pre occupied. Who ever thought beekeeping could be so divisive. A lot of these reports I read seem to have Dave Goulsons name attached. While I enjoy reading his material. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder against Monsanto and other chemical organisations. He did start a Bumblebee conservation group and increased awareness of the contribution of pollinators to the environment, But I wonder what his attitude would be if he was been funded for his research by some of the chemical groups he opposes. As an ordinary Joe soap I have to read all these conflicting ( I don't have to read them but I'am curious and like to be informed) reports and try to make sense of them. I'am interested but when I discuss the issues with friends and family they just blank it one minute you want to ban glyphosate and neonics next your telling me the alternatives are worse, then your talking about food security and the contribution of pollinators to food but if we go to the local super market there is nothing there pollinated by insects from either Ireland or England, last week Tomatoes from Spain, Apples from New Zeland, Blueberries America, Onions Portugal, Spuds Israel??  garlic China Carrots Spain and so on and on. All the cereal is wind pollinated wheat oats, but wait I found a small pack of four cookers from Northern Ireland.

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## mbc

Virtually all the wheat will have been sprayed with glyphosate to kill it off prior to harvesting, some think theres a link to increased levels of ibs in the population, either way it certainly makes less flowers available to pollinators.

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