# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  First queens emerged 2015

## Jon

I grafted larvae on 1st May and the first queen has just emerged in the incubator. Half a day early.
I put a few cells into apideas this afternoon and I could see movement inside them so some of those ones have likely emerged as well.
Bring on the good weather.

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## fatshark

> Bring on the good weather.


On the basis that it can't stay as total carp as it's been for the last three weeks I did my first round of grafting yesterday. 8/10 looked like they've taken. The OSR is being largely ignored and colonies are about a month behind where I'd expect them to be at this stage of the season … I don't think we've had a single day over 20 C this month. Fingers crossed for some warm settled weather for queen mating in about 3 weeks time  :Cool:

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## lindsay s

> I don't think we've had a single day over 20 C this month.


I don't think we've had a single day over 10C this month. All colonies are now being fed and it's to cold to inspect them.  :Frown:

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## madasafish

15C tops for last  4 weeks.. Lovely blossom though. We should have bumper fruit crops. Today it's cold and wet: thermal vest time (again)... Got rather damp on morning walk..
Hawthorn soon to come out - ...in this weather bees stay indoors..pop out quickly for warmer spells..

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## Jon

We have had 4 weeks of 9c-12c with just a couple of warmer days.
Lots of pollen going in and colonies are getting bigger but lighter.

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## fatshark

Spoke too soon  hail and strong winds   :Frown: 
I now have to add some thin syrup to the (aggressive) cell raiser  feck

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## busybeephilip

Definately not looking good for may, cold and wet, i am thinking this is going to be year of feeding bees.  The weathermen are predicting that we are in for a really bad winter.  Sugar is cheapish at the moment!

not good for queen rearing either

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## prakel

> The weathermen are predicting that we are in for a really bad winter.


lol. Perhaps they should concentrate on attempting to get the next few weeks right. Doesn't seem that long ago they were forecasting good weather through May.

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## Adam

My first grafts emerged on 10/11 May from a colony that didn't swarm last year and is currently has 4 quite full supers and 19 frames of brood (not much of your native small-colony genes in there! - although winter fuel consumption is quite reasonable as they shut-down laying in late summer). A second lot from a different queen (same family) are due around 20/21st.

The disadvantage of these girls is that they seem to need 19 - 20 degrees or so to mate so for Scotland, they might not be so good.

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## Jon

Mine will take mating flights from around 16c as long as it is sunny but its better when the temperature is 20C+

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## Jon

> not good for queen rearing either


You need to know the weather 3-5 weeks ahead on the day you graft.

12 days to emergence + 7 more to be old enough to take a mating flight + 14 more and you are running out of time for the queen to mate.

The way to go is to graft twice a week to have batches coming along all the time.
If you have bad weather followed by a couple of good days the queens all mate around the same time even if they have emerged several weeks apart.

It takes a solid 3 weeks of really poor weather with no breaks to scupper things. I had queens emerge last Wednesday-Thursday and they are just about old enough to start orientation and mating flights.

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## Bridget

> Lots of pollen going in and colonies are getting bigger but lighter.


I put on supers last week because I was becoming concerned about space and needed the frames tidied up and pulled out.   However with the poor weather I think they will soon need feeding.  I've not tried brood and a half before.  Could I put the super below the brood box and stick a feeder on top and then if conditions improve take off the feeder and put a super on top?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Jon

That would work ok Bridget. I am keeping a close eye on the weather as a few of mine are very light and will need fed if things do not improve within a day or two.
Colonies seem to be growing at a normal rate for the time of year but there is very little nectar coming in. Seems to be mainly pollen they are foraging.

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## mbc

With the usual caveat of making sure you're not moving the queen above the excluder when you make the move.

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## mbc

> Colonies seem to be growing at a normal rate for the time of year but there is very little nectar coming in. Seems to be mainly pollen they are foraging.


Things have stalled round here with colonies going into stasis if not given a bit of a feed, most are scraping by without starving but there needs to be one or two nice afternoons of foraging before I can take my nervous hat off. 
The difference between colonies being given a continuous light feed for queen rearing purposes and those fending for themselves is stark, I think with a well tuned crystal ball I might have greatly increased my chances of a big crop later on if I'd have given everything a feed.

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## Jon

I was just watching a few colonies I have at the bottom of the garden.
It's 10c and the bees are working well but 90% are bringing in pollen rather than nectar.
Loads of forage about so the real limiting factor is the weather.

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## busybeephilip

I was off work this morning  and like you having a wee watchful eye on my garden bees, its been warmer than the last few days and the sun was bringing the bees out, forecast for June is good so maybe there will be no june gap this year as there is still some forage that has been held back with the cold weather

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## Jon

I saw a queen taking a short orientation flight from an apidea earlier on.
It ran up the side of the apidea like the one I recorded in the video a couple of year ago.
18 more cells with queens due to emerge tomorrow.

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## busybeephilip

Excellant !  I'm hoping the single one i have at the moment will be laying soon.  

Spent a good part of the morning wiring foundation ready for all them artificial swarms that are going to be made soon when the weather gets better

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## Jon

First warm spell we get it is going to be swarm fever.
4 weeks of cool weather now.

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## busybeephilip

It might be dose swarm fever but in my 50 odd years of beekeeping you can never tell what might happen.  If a heavy flow starts you might not get swarming until later on

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## Jon

> If a heavy flow starts....


Dream on!

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## busybeephilip

Stop those negative vibs man

sunny skies in comber rain clouds in locksley  :Cool:

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## fatshark

> I grafted larvae on 1st May and the first queen has just emerged in the incubator. Half a day early.


I checked my grafts this evening. The expectation is that all will be sealed tomorrow morning sometime. Two were sealed tonight, presumably because I chose slightly older larvae. Has anyone noticed if these make appreciably less well performing queens  ? (I'm assuming the weather will improve sufficiently that these girls don't need umbrellas and overcoats to get out and mate)

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## Jon

If there is plenty of royal jelly in the cell you are probably ok.
With the best ones there is still a load of jelly in the cell after the queen has emerged.

Saturday looks like it is just about warm enough for a queen to take a mating flight.

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## fatshark

Cells look pretty well loaded at the moment. I don't always get a chance to check the cells after emergence as most are just put into the mating nuc and the workers clean the cells out pronto after emergence. A friend likes the semi-translucent JzBz cups as you can look through the base of the sealed cell and just work with those stuffed with jelly. I prefer the convenience of the Nicot collars/cups/cages so don't have that option. 

If I'm organised enough (Ha!) I'll record which nucs get these queens (and similar ones later in the season) and see if there's any obvious difference …

I hope Saturday works for you as the following week looks cooler again.

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## prakel

It was interesting to observe the apparent difference in quantity of jelly (or was it a difference in the speed at which a worker larvae consumed it) in the Nat Geographic metamorphosis video (@approx 10 secs) which Gavin recently linked on another thread. Still not sure what can be deduced from that though....

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## Jon

Sometimes a small cell can produce a large queen.
If you let them emerge in the incubator you can make the judgement as to whether they are big enough before putting them into mating nucs.

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## Adam

Best weather for my girls over the next few days will be tomorrow at 17 degrees. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be warm enough for mating - but maybe the forecast will be wrong. There are plenty of drones around, eagerly waiting to end their lives... with a bang!

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## fatshark

> I saw a queen taking a short orientation flight from an apidea earlier on.


Jon, Any idea how soon after emergence these flights take place? I have a bunch emerging tomorrow in a set of nucs I'd like to swap about a bit to equilibrate the bee numbers in. Weather is poor until the w/e so I'm reckoning that even if she wanted to go on an orientation flight she might choose not to.

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## Jon

I reckon you have 3 days from emergence when it is safe to move Apideas as orientation flights start about day 4. I have often moved them 2 or 3 days after emergence but not any later than that.

Had 7 more emerge in the incubator since yesterday.
Some nice looking queens
marked-virgin-queen-small-image.jpg

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## busybeephilip

set up 4 single frame nucs last nite using queens from the incubator, will be putting them out on stands this evening.  Having the comb already partially drawn out gives the bees in these units a head start

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## Adam

> Best weather for my girls over the next few days will be tomorrow at 17 degrees. Unfortunately it's unlikely to be warm enough for mating - but maybe the forecast will be wrong. There are plenty of drones around, eagerly waiting to end their lives... with a bang!


Around 20 degrees for 21st and 22nd of May so better than expected. Some queens that emerged around 10/11th are mated;  :Smile:  not sure about all of them yet.

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## Jon

> set up 4 single frame nucs last nite using queens from the incubator, will be putting them out on stands this evening.  Having the comb already partially drawn out gives the bees in these units a head start


I fumigate the apidea frames with acetic acid fumes and reuse them drawn. In each apidea I use one fully drawn, one half drawn and one not drawn at all as you have to leave a gap to fill them with bees and that does not work well with 3 fully drawn combs.

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## Adam

This year I have some frames of stores from last year so the mini-nucs have a full frame of stores in each which is a good way to get them started rather than use the feeder. I do as you do Jon, the comb left over from last year of some full frames is removed to give space. For sterilisation, the mini-nucs go into a bucket of bleach for a few days in turn over winter with a house-brick in top to keep them submerged. The bleach should also kill any yeasts in the polystyrene which might make the syrup ferment.

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## greengumbo

Well I set up three more mating nucs yesterday. No grafted queens yet so I took some stonking queen cells from a big colony to get started and get the mating nucs up and running.

Can someone remind me of the timings for putting in queens / letting bees out etc etc. I basically filled them with bees, left them for 5 hours in the dark, added the ripe queen cell and then this morning opened up the entrance. I have a bad feeling I should left the entrance closed for a few days ? 

Its been a whole 9 months since my last attempts so forgetting the basics !!

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## Jon

Open the mating nuc after the queen has emerged. I find a lot of bees drift away until they have a queen in with them. The queen cell itself is not a big draw.
If I add a virgin and bees at the same time, ie wet bees tipped in on top of the VQ,I leave close for 24 hours and then set it out at a mating apiary.

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## Calum

30 queen cell taken up this morning.
Trying out a (for me new method) .... mmm, dont know what it would be called in english. oops.
On a good flying morning (wednesday) moved the whole hive 10m away, just leaving the hives super with those bees on that spot. (whats that called again?).
After two hours removed two frames from the super, and replaced them with two frames filled with grafts.
The bees leapt on them.... Much less hassle than prepairing a starter colony....

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## Calum

can anyone recommend a good incubator? We are using a chicken egg brooder with the base filled with water.... Works fine, but its getting on a bit....

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## prakel

> 30 queen cell taken up this morning.
> Trying out a (for me new method) .... mmm, dont know what it would be called in english.....
> The bees leapt on them.... Much less hassle than prepairing a starter colony....


Sounds like it's utilizing shades of Steve Taber's method and that of Pasaga Ramic.

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## busybeephilip

Calum,  If youre any good at making stuff I'd buy a temperature controller, they are now very cheap you just need a cabinet and a heating source, and computer type fan to circulate the air.   Get one with  0.1% accuracy

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## Black Comb

Calum
Does this mean the larvae are fed essentially by the flying bees?

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## mbc

> Calum
> Does this mean the larvae are fed essentially by the flying bees?


This occurred to me too.
I'm obsessed with getting lots of nurse bees and very little or no competition for their attention in my cell raisers.

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## Jon

> This occurred to me too.
> I'm obsessed with getting lots of nurse bees and very little or no competition for their attention in my cell raisers.


My method as well

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## gavin

> can anyone recommend a good incubator? We are using a chicken egg brooder with the base filled with water.... Works fine, but its getting on a bit....


This is the one recommended by many.  I've bought one but it is still unused.

G

http://www.theincubatorshop.co.uk/pr...semi-auto.html

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## prakel

I don't know what the next step in Calum's method is but to _start_ the cells flying bees are amazingly efficient -I'm tempted to say that they do a better initial job than young nurses.

The Taber method keeps the starter fresh by regularly switching it with the queen-right unit through the season; moving the started cellls to a finisher and adding some brood to the starter as required if I remember right. Similarly, Ramic gets the started cells back into a queen-right environment asap.

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## fatshark

> This is the one recommended by many.  I've bought one but it is still unused.
> 
> G
> 
> http://www.theincubatorshop.co.uk/pr...semi-auto.html


And I've been looking for a secondhand one of those on eBay for weeks and they usually sell for a disappointingly high price … or hold their value well, depending on whether you are the buyer or seller. That's a pretty competitive price in the link above. My honey warming cabinet holds temperature well enough for queen incubation (and humidity is OK with a plastic container of water inside). It has the advantage of being big enough to incubate 800 cells at once should I decide to scale up (or should I have a neighbour doing likewise)  :Wink:

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## gavin

> .... or should I have a neighbour doing likewise ....


A kind offer.  However my scaling-up plans are taking shape nicely ....

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## Calum

> Calum
> Does this mean the larvae are fed essentially by the flying bees?


hi, no, the bees processing honey in the super are not flying bees

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## Calum

> I don't know what the next step in Calum's method is but to _start_ the cells flying bees are amazingly efficient -I'm tempted to say that they do a better initial job than young nurses.
> .


Hi, after 5 days the cells are closed, they are caged, I can either let them "finish" in the super - and use it and its bees for filling apideas, or I can reunite everything  (the super with its colony) and "finish" the caged cells in the super of another strong colony (ie super well filled with bees), and restart the same process with another strong colony. Apparently doing this is a good method for reducing pressure to swarm, without loosing too much honey. Or if i had an incubator, i could finishe them in that. I am looking at a 12v one for 145€ that i could run in the behouse with a car battery and a solar panel... worried that - the temp setting of 0,3°C may not be accurate enough, and that the height between floor and lid may not be enough for the cages on frame bottom bars i use...

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## Jon

I use a Brinsea Octagon20 incubator,the one shown in Gavin's link.
I usually move the cells into the incubator about 3 days before emergence date.

octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg

I got mine for £120 including carriage on Amazon.
It is pretty much a no brainer to use an incubator as you can free up your cell finisher colonies for fresh cells by moving out cells to the incubator.
I know somone with two off them. He sets one at 34.5 for incubating cells and the other at 32c for holding the emerged virgin queens in rollers.

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## Calum

Hey Jon,
 thanks for the tip, what is the accuracy on the thermostat? 
The set temperature is only the average they attain, depending on the accuracy of the thermostat, it is cooling somewhat below that before it turns on, and heating above that before it turns off, or am i trying to make and exact science out of it....??

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## mbc

> ..it is cooling somewhat below that before it turns on, and heating above that before it turns off, ...?


Mimicking what the bees do themselves isn't it?

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## Calum

> I use a Brinsea Octagon20 incubator,the one shown in Gavin's link.
> I usually move the cells into the incubator about 3 days before emergence date.
> 
> octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg
> 
> I got mine for £120 including carriage on Amazon.
> It is pretty much a no brainer to use an incubator as you can free up your cell finisher colonies for fresh cells by moving out cells to the incubator.
> I know somone with two off them. He sets one at 34.5 for incubating cells and the other at 32c for holding the emerged virgin queens in rollers.


Celle Institue writes:
"35°C & 50-70% humidity is needed for sucessful queen incubation." 
Interestingly (they continue)
"Lower temperatures lead to a delay in emergance,
higher temperatures to an earlier emergance. By higher temperatures the first rear body segment will have a lighter drown pigmentation.
A large breastplate is a good indicator for good incubation conditions".

no mention of what the upper and lower limits might be (or acceptable deviation).

34,5 °C is the setting on the incubator, or the measurement of the themometer?

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## Calum

> Mimicking what the bees do themselves isn't it?


Yes, it is, and there is variation I am sure there aswell depending on the colony strength/ weather //... how much? And how much is good?
 The advantage of technology over nature is the ability to reduce variation, to improve the result (success-rate/vitality////) additionally to it being less hassle in an incubator than daily opening the hive...

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## Jon

You can set the incubator whatever temperature you want. It's a chicken egg incubator and they need a higher temperature. There is a screw which you turn to set the temperature. I reckon it is accurate to about a quarter of a degree which is more than enough accuracy. We have Arnia hive monitoring equipment in 4 hives at the association apiary. They keep the brood nest between 33.5 and 34.5. 35c is too high.

arnia-temperature2.jpg

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## Jon

arnia-temperature.jpg
One from last year

The incubator has two troughs in the base which you fill with water to keep the humidity high.

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## Calum

Hi Jon,
thanks, thats excellent data! 
Are those AMM Carnies or Buckies? Are there any differences? 
It would be really interesting to see an additional line regarding the outside temperature - to see what dips and preaks were external influinces, and what was the bees influence..
thanks
Calum

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## Jon

Those bees are Amm or near Amm. The temperature is recorded every 2 hours and the data is sent once per day to a data centre in Newcastle.
There is a weather station thingy which goes with the internal monitors but the data from it is too erratic to be any use.

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## mbc

20150531_131711.jpg

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## busybeephilip

mbc, those are perfect nice shaped cells !  That must be a queenless box well stuffed with bees and fed nicely

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## Jon

Excellent looking cells.
But you can still get a big queen out of a much smaller cell.
Some queen rearers squish any cells which are a bit smaller but I have noticed that you can get a good sized queen from an average looking cell. I think the main things are the size of the larva you graft coupled with the amount of jelly the cell raiser colony gets into the cell before it is sealed.
If you let the queens emerge in the incubator you can make the judgement as to whether they are big enough.

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## mbc

I try and make it a rule that I cull one or two cells per batch but I couldn't bring myself to destroy any of today's, mating nucs are filling up fast and the first batch will be ready to harvest later this week and have their second cells. 
This batch were started and finished in a q- box a la Mike Palmer, and only reunited over their queen when fully sealed. I've been critical of q- systems in the past but gave it a try and I'm obviously pleased with the results this time round and will give it a whirl again, it does involve quite a bit more moving stuff and shaking of bees than my usual cloak board method but the take and the finished cells speak for themselves.

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## busybeephilip

Even in a batch of nice grafted queen cells you will find differences in the sizes of the queens hatched - big is better.  Small cells might indicate that the colony was not getting enough food.  The best queens are supposed to have a hatched weight of over 200 mg with the weight decreasing with age in the cage.  You need a good set of lab scales to measure at this acuracy ( +/- 0.1 mg costs around £500 - £1000) not like those you use for your Oxalic acid  :Smile: 

If you ever get the chance to weigh them you will be surprised at the differences

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## Jon

The thing about a q- system is that it is far easier to get cells started than using a queenright system.
I have a q- setup and I keep adding frames of brood to it in order to maintain a huge number of nurse bees.
I have a few mated queens from the first batch I did on May 1st. 
Filling all the apideas is a chore at this time of year.

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## mbc

> Filling all the apideas is a chore at this time of year.


Especially when you coc k up the timing and end up having to place forty cells on a Sunday ( wife not happy with me  :Frown: )

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## Jon

I have 25 more to do by Wednesday and that is bad enough.
I am mostly letting the queens emerge and adding them with a scoop of wet bees at the same time.

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## busybeephilip

You'd better get them done this morning cos minnowburn will be a wash out by this afternoon !

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## busybeephilip

> ( wife not happy with me )


Know the feeling

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## Calum

> I have 25 more to do by Wednesday and that is bad enough.
> I am mostly letting the queens emerge and adding them with a scoop of wet bees at the same time.


lol, i have appropriated one of my wifes soup ladels for getting the volume of bees right for the apidea- its just perfect.
If she ever finds out where it went she will crack me over the head with it.... Its her fravorite (i understand why - its perfect for ladelling wet bees AND just the right size hehehe  :Big Grin: )...

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## Jon

A small square flower pot does a good job as well and avoids the potential domestic disputes!




> You'd better get them done this morning cos minnowburn will be a wash out by this afternoon !


Just did 6 which emerged yesterday. 19 more due to emerge tomorrow.
They are ok for a couple of days in the roller if you put food in.
Already on to Plan B for this evening as there will be no bees opened.
Indoor presentation on swarming and swarm control.

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## busybeephilip

Won't bee there tonite, got to get frames waxed , mini nucs candied and think about feeding light hives.  Out of interest what recipie do you use for feeding virgins in cages

I use honey/sugar

I use the cup out of a 4 pint feeder for scouping bees

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## Calum

hi
powdered sugar 10kg:4kg floral honey (dandelion) dough, same as for the apideas - a wee wedge of it keeps herself and 4-5 adjundant bees very happy (and does not dry out as fast as candy i find).

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## busybeephilip

> hi
> powdered sugar 10kg:4kg floral honey (dandelion) dough,


This is for virgins in an incubator, I can get about 4 days max with a 4 sugar:1 honey with no attending bees

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## Calum

> This is for virgins in an incubator, I can get about 4 days max with a 4 sugar:1 honey with no attending bees


Fair enough, I try to get them into artificial swarms or apedias asap after they emerge. 
I'll keep them for a couple of days caged for people who want to buy them, but if they are not sharpish picking them up, I'll assume they are not that interested and stuff them in an apdiea. They can come back 2 weeks later and pay 10€ more for them then.  :Smile: . Havent tried out how long they would actually survive like that.

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## Jon

I mix runny honey with fondant to make a thickish paste.
2 days is long enough in the roller if there are no attendants.
I usually have them in Apideas within 24 hours of emergence.

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## Calum

oh wanted to post this here too, the Austrian beekeepess in Voralberg price suggestions for the area:
Carnica purebred queen 35,00 €
Queen  18,00 €
1 kg Bees before midsummer 30€
1kg Bees after Sommersonnenwende 25,00 €
1 frame with bees 12,00 – 15,00 €
5 frame nuc well filled 100,00 €
queen cells 5,00 - 6,50 € (only an austrian would buy queens cells!)
queen pre evaluation 25,00 €
queen post evaluation 35,00 € (no clues what the evaluation criteria should be tho)
Honey 1 kg 15,00 €
Honey 0.5 kg 8,00 €

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## Calum

thanks for the message Jon - your messaging service is full  - so I cannot reply!

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## fatshark

> queen cells 5,00 - 6,50  (only an austrian would buy queens cells!)


I've known people here offering to sell them  or at least trying to  :Wink:   And we're not necessarily talking about grafted/selected stock  what you or I would term 'swarm cells'.

Thanks but no thanks.

Put the board into my Cloake board (!) of my cell raiser today intending to graft tomorrow  just checked the weather and they're predicting 43 mph winds. Marvellous. That bit when they suggest just gently 'floating' the cell bar frame down into the box crammed with bees will likely occur in a whirling maelstrom of leaves, branches, litter, small birds and more than a few bees.

Still, the sacrifices we must make for 6/cell  :Wink:

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## Calum

Good luck, they can be really tame in very bad weather, or not....

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## busybeephilip

This year is crazy, first time I've ever seen bees evict drones at this time of year !

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## Jon

My drones are still ok thankfully.
16 queens have emerged in the incubator overnight final 3 wont be long as you can see them moving in the cells..
Next batch of 13 due on Thursday

folder cleared now Calum

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## fatshark

> Good luck, they can be really tame in very bad weather, or not....


They were like pussy cats  howling gale, trees and branches thrashing about  I suspect they daren't let go of the comb for fear of disappearing over the hedge.

I'll have sealed cells by the weekend for the special price of 5/each ...

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## busybeephilip

Was just browsing and found this 



Queen cell incubator for £50  temp and humidity controlled

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1715707669...MakeTrack=true

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## Greengage

Might not know much about using incubators for breeding queens but with this model we had great success hatching chicks.I dont have any associations with the company, but it worked well.
http://www.brinsea.com/

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## Jon

I use the Brinsea Octagon 20.
octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg

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## gwizzie

> I use the Brinsea Octagon 20.
> octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg


Hi Jon, any chance you could do a post on how you exactly use one of these for queen rearing please. Step by step would be nice  :Wink:

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## Jon

Just set the temperature for 34.5c and keep the water troughs full. No more to it than that.
I usually move the cells in about 2-3 days from queen emergence.

octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg

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## Greengage

> Just set the temperature for 34.5c and keep the water troughs full. No more to it than that.
> I usually move the cells in about 2-3 days from queen emergence.
> 
> octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg


I dont understand the last bit about moving the cells, do you take them out of the incubator and place them in an Apedia

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## prakel

> I dont understand the last bit about moving the cells


Not sure that I do, either. If the queens are emerging in their mating nucs, what advantage does using the incubator offer?

edit: re-reading Jon's post; I now assume that he moves the cells to the incubator a couple of days before emergence!

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## Kate Atchley

> ... any chance you could do a post on how you exactly use one of these for queen rearing please. Step by step would be nice


With our notoriously bad weather in the West Highland this summer, I found queen cells becoming chilled as well as torn down in steadily wet weather so, to avoid this, I began to cage the capped queen cells at 5-6 days from grafting, then moving them (careful not to shake or chill them) into this small incubator: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00L9PSVN...986871_TE_item

It's one of the less expensive ones (though price gone up £3 since I bought it 3 months ago), doesn't involve turning, and the cages stand up easily on the base (some incubators have a base shaped to receive eggs though this can usually be removed). I reckon it would hold about 60 cages though I never achieved that!

I kept the temperature at 34º and water in the wee trough. Queen hatching times suggested this temperature is fine, along with John's 34.5º. When I failed to make up enough fresh mininucs to take all the cells on one occasion, the remaining 3 queens emerged overnight on day 11.5 days from grafting ... so on time.

At day 14 or 15 from egg-laying, or 10-11 days from grafting, I added the cells to mating nucs in a state ready to receive them: either freshly made up (which I leave in dark cool place for 3 days or so before opening at mating site), or to replace a recently withdrawn or failed queen/queen cell in mininuc already in situ at mating site. (I haven't been closing these for a few days while the queen emerges and is accepted ... what do others advise when recharging a mininuc with Qc?)

The incubator simply provided more reliability on the progress of the cells, provided I handled them very carefully. 

Jon's plan of putting them in the incubator later on may be to ease space pressure in his cell-raising hives? 

Feedback welcome for, as the regulars know, I'm fairly new to all this!

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## Jon

I tend to move them to the incubator for convenience more than anything else. I use the cells like you do moving to Apideas around day 11, as late as possible. In an ideal world I can see the queen moving inside the cell and she will have emerged within a few hours.
It's ok to let the virgins emerge in rollers as long as they have a little food to eat and these can be used within 2-3 days from emergence.

That thing about closing bees in for 3 days in the dark is unnecessary but repeated everywhere for some reason. If I am using queen cells I just fill apideas from any colony and add the cell immediately.
When it comes to adding the second cell after removal of a mated queen from an Apidea there are two good times to do it.
The best time is to just add the cell immediately the mated queen is removed and next best time is about 5 or 6 days after queen removal when they will have made their own queen cell which you need to remove first before inserting one from the incubator. No small larvae at that stage so they have no choice other than the cell you offer them.

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## Jon

> I dont understand the last bit about moving the cells, do you take them out of the incubator and place them in an Apedia


I usually take the cells from the cell raiser colony and put them in the incubator about 3 days from emergence. They spend a couple of days in the incubator before being moved on to apideas or maybe a few more days if allowed to emerge as virgin queens in the rollers.

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## busybeephilip

> That thing about closing bees in for 3 days in the dark is unnecessary but repeated everywhere for some reason.



If they are prepared from bees in the same apiary do the bees not drift back to the parent hives if you let them out immediately and whats left is a smaller bunch of young bees that can hardly form a small colony ?

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## Jon

I fill in one place and set out in another to stop drifting but that's not the usual reason given for closing in for 3 days. You read stuff about comb building and the need for them to be queenless so they will accept the cell and stuff like that.
The key thing to avoid losing bees is to make sure the apidea remains closed until the queen has emerged from her cell. Once they have a virgin in the cluster they tend to stay put. If you open apideas before the queen has emerged a lot of bees will drift into queenright apideas or colonies even if they have been moved to another apiary.

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## Kate Atchley

> When it comes to adding the second cell after removal of a mated queen from an Apidea there are two good times to do it.
> The best time is to just add the cell immediately the mated queen is removed and next best time is about 5 or 6 days after queen removal when they will have made their own queen cell which you need to remove first before inserting one from the incubator. No small larvae at that stage so they have no choice other than the cell you offer them.


That's helpful Jon. Many thanks ... noted.

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## Kate Atchley

> If they are prepared from bees in the same apiary do the bees not drift back to the parent hives if you let them out immediately and whats left is a smaller bunch of young bees that can hardly form a small colony ?


If the bees collected for the mating nuc includes flyers, and they minis are to sited near the source hives, you'll be best to close them in for 3 days. I take bees for mating nucs from the supers and they mostly stay but I'm generous in adding the bees to allow for the field bees flying back.

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## Jon

3 days confined is extra stress though. In an ideal world I have the bees confined just for a day or so. With virgin queens, I put the virgin in the apidea then add the bees and open up the following evening so they are confined just over 24 hours.

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## Greengage

Jon,
Excuse my ignorance im trying to get my head around this, Am I correct in thinking the following.
Day 1 egg.
Day 8 cells sealed.
Day 12 transfer to incubator. move worker bees to Apedia and keep sealed in until queen hatches.
Day 15 transfer cell to Apedia
Day 16 cell hatches new queen.
Day 19 open apedia allow bees to fly
Day 22 queen mated.
Day 27 approx queen laying.
I know it might sound easy to you when you know what your doing, but im trying to get my head around the process for next season.

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## Black Comb

The first QR course I attended was run by Terry Claire, past president of BIBBA.
If I remember correctly, he advised to confine the bees in the apidea for 2-3 days as it reduces the risk of absconding. (bees in apideas are liable to abscond)
The flaw with your timetable above is that you confine the bees in the apidea on day 12 and open them on day 19. 7 days confined will result in dead bees IMO.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Jon,
> Excuse my ignorance im trying to get my head around this, Am I correct in thinking the following.
> Day 1 egg.
> Day 8 cells sealed.
> Day 12 transfer to incubator. move worker bees to Apedia and keep sealed in until queen hatches.
> Day 15 transfer cell to Apedia
> Day 16 cell hatches new queen.
> Day 19 open apedia allow bees to fly
> Day 22 queen mated.
> ...


Hi greengage 
I think Jon has pointed out that the shut in for 3 days after emergence is too long and a day will do
Usually Queens will make their mating flight about 7 days after emergence 
They will have a few practice fly arounds first to build wing power and orient themselves
That activity can cause a bit of commotion round the mini or nuc
About 10 days after the mating flight the queen will be laying 
Sometimes the mating is quicker often the laying starts earlier but that would be a bonus

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## mbc

> Usually Queens will make their mating flight about 7 days after emergence


If only, mine rarely do. 
I have learnt from experience that it's not worth my while checking for laying until three weeks from emergence or it just means having to  check them again later. I have to try and make my time count so I need to be quite disciplined with the queen rearing side of things because I enjoy it so much it could be quite possible for me to while away most of my time fiddling about doing unnecessary stuff, there's lots to do and only so many hours in the day, apparently the family like to see me occasionally during the summer too.

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## Jon

The incubator is optional. I use it for convenience so I don't have to run up to an apiary to collect cells. I like to have some handy at alltimes.

That aside, forget about eggs as you graft with a small larva. The queen should be emerging 12 days later.
I find it useful to keep that 12 day period in my head. If you graft on a Thursday the queens will be emerging on a Tuesday.

There are two main ways to do this (a) putting a ripe queen cell into an apidea, (b) putting a virgin queen into an apidea.
Both methods work fine.

(a)With a ripe queen cell I fill the apidea with bees, insert the cell and open when the queen has emerged from the cell.
You can check if the queen has emerged by removing the cell from the hole in the inner cover of the apidea.
I put thecell in as late as possible before emergence which avoids any risk of chilling.

(b) With a virgin queen, the routine is slightly different. The virgin could be a few hours old up to several days old so that part is flexible.
You have your virgin queen ready in a roller cage and also a scoop of wet bees which you have prepared earlier Blue Peter style.
The virgin is shaken into the apidea and 2 seconds later the scoop of wet bees is dumped on top of her.
Apideas are filled through the floor which slides out.
The apidea is opened on the evening of the next day.

The queen can take a mating flight 6 days from emergence but depending upon the weather it could be 25 days from emergence.
There may be more than one mating flight, on the same day or over several days.
Egg laying usually starts 2-3 days after the last mating flight.

DR, I assume you mean 10 days from emergence not 10 days from the mating flight.

Cells from which a queen has emerged look like this:
emerged-cell-cap.jpg queen cells after queen emerged.jpg

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## mbc

> The incubator is optional. I use it for convenience so I don't have to run up to an apiary to collect cells. I like to have some handy at alltimes.
> 
> That aside, forget about eggs as you graft with a small larva. The queen should be emerging 12 days later.
> I find it useful to keep that 12 day period in my head. If you graft on a Thursday the queens will be emerging on a Tuesday.
> 
> There are two main ways to do this (a) putting a ripe queen cell into an apidea, (b) putting a virgin queen into an apidea.
> Both methods work fine.
> 
> (a)With a ripe queen cell I fill the apidea with bees, insert the cell and open when the queen has emerged from the cell.
> ...


Good summary.
 I must get myself an incubator, it sounds like it adds a bit of flexibility.

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## Jon

> The first QR course I attended was run by Terry Claire, past president of BIBBA.
> If I remember correctly, he advised to confine the bees in the apidea for 2-3 days as it reduces the risk of absconding. (bees in apideas are liable to abscond)


I disagree with Terry on that one. Absconding is caused by overfilling, overheating or leaving the queen in the apidea for too long. Nothing to do with closing in for 3 days at the start. (well I guess it guarantees they cant abscond for those 3 days!)

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## Greengage

Tks for the info, looks like i can do a bit of experimenting, facinating subject, looks like its all about the timing and good weather for mating flight and a whole lot of other variables.

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## busybeephilip

Yes I would reccommend 3 days as max otherwise later than this the nuc gets stale and bees get very lethargic with swollen abdomens

Timing is the important part, knowing when the cells are going to hatch then poping them in an apidea makes this a lot easier.  Sometimes waiting for cells to hatch can result in some queens not being accepted by the mating nucs

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