# General beekeeping > Starting out >  New beekeeping apprentice

## BethPotters

Hi,

This is my first post here. Having been interested in beekeeping for years, this year I've finally started. I've been really lucky to find myself a mentor, I've bought a new bee suit and I experienced my first hive a week ago. The colony needed to be split to prevent swarming, so I had a great introduction. I've nearly finished reading the BBKA guide to beekeeping, I'm really enjoying Bill Turnbull's book and I have a recommended reading list from my mentor who is lovely. She's happy to answer my endless questions and next session i'll be handling some frames. I have no bees or equipment yet but I'd like to learn more and build up some confidence first. My tutor recommended that I get to experience the different hives before I choose to buy one which sounds great advice. I plan to join my local association which is the Aberdeen one in the coming months too.

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## The Drone Ranger

Welcome Beth

Definitely lots of nice beekeepers in your area  

Most people use a hive with BS size frames
Depends how many hives you intend to have eventually
If I had one in my Garden I would have a WBC 
Then there’s Poly hives ugly but practical
And the Nationals boxy but good
Smith hives (I use them) no sticky out bits for in the car but non standard frame lugs

Then there are the Warre , top bar and other less practical options to start with

Finally there are the hives like the sun hive , made of wood lattice and cowpats
Definitely only for the wigwam dweller or tree hugger 

More important than all those though are the bees 
You hopefully will find nice gentle ones in you local area

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## BethPotters

Hi Drone Ranger,

Thanks for the welcome,  from what I've picked up so far, this hobby grows and grows. Famous last words but i'd want to keep things fairly small as i'm also doing a degree at the same time and I have kids etc. My husband plans to get involved when I do get some bees and he has a bad back so I did wonder about the top bars but I understand they have (strips?) not frames, not sure if they would be a good starter hive.

Thanks

Beth

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi Drone Ranger,
> 
> Thanks for the welcome,  from what I've picked up so far, this hobby grows and grows. Famous last words but i'd want to keep things fairly small as i'm also doing a degree at the same time and I have kids etc. My husband plans to get involved when I do get some bees and he has a bad back so I did wonder about the top bars but I understand they have (strips?) not frames, not sure if they would be a good starter hive.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Beth


Hi Beth
Any hive where you have to lift boxes off and on can be a strain on the back
Most of the weight is in the frames rather than the boxes
Poly is lighter so that's a help
Making stands with 14" legs gets the broodbox up to an easier on the back height 
When taking honey off the supers rather than lift the box off you can just take a few full ones at at time 

There will be a few people on SBA forum that have used top bar hives or the Long Deep Hive
You could start a thread on them that will get some discussion going

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## prakel

An alternative to putting hives on stands is to put them on the ground -a couple of pieces of wood etc will keep them out of the wet. You're then able to kneel while inspecting the colonies, apart from lessening strain on the back it also seems to lessen the 'interest'which the bees show in you -not such a large, threatening presence. There are also some technical advantages of being close to the frames as you inspect -with practice you'll soon be scanning the face side of the next frame as you remove the previous one -useful in those rare instances where you need to find the queen.

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## HJBee

I'd agree with Prakel, I like kneeling and having a good look without my back aching. Also by the time you have a few supers on, your not lifting at a height that could be difficult.  I use 4 bricks with a wooden decking square as the base, lifts them off enough for good ventilation.

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## The Drone Ranger

I can't get up again it's OK for you young whippersnappers  :Smile:

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## HJBee

When I'm at that point I will use my garden kneeler with the arms (which I already need - so no do whippersnappery)

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## The Drone Ranger

> When I'm at that point I will use my garden kneeler with the arms (which I already need - so no do whippersnappery)


How do I run away on my knees when I drop a comb

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## prakel

> How do I run away on my knees when I drop a comb


When I was (even) younger one of my other hobbies involved spending considerable time 'walking' on my knees -surprising how quick you can move with a little practice  :Smile: .

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## busybeephilip

> When I was (even) younger one of my other hobbies involved spending considerable time 'walking' on my knees -surprising how quick you can move with a little practice .



I give up - it must be breakdancing !

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## prakel

Shikko. But now we're going too far off subject  :Smile: .

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## busybeephilip

Awesome

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## Emma

Back on topic - especially the topic of backs, and other body parts that need to avoid heavy lifting sometimes - I've been using a longhive recently, with frames. It's basically just a double-length National brood box. I love it. Seems very kind on the bees. I particularly like being able to go through the whole broodnest (14 frames of brood by the time I did an artificial swarm this week, plus stores either end) while only disturbing one comb at a time. I simply couldn't afford to lift a full brood box just now.
Off topic - a quick google, & I now have some idea what "shikko" is! Amazing what you learn here :-) 
Emma

ps Hi Beth! I think we have a friend in common - Erica, who hosted my first apiary, on a windy field by the Aberdeenshire coast, & witnessed many of my beginner-beekeeper traumas! Do join ADBKA, they're great.

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## prakel

Emma, from your description of stores at each end I imagine that you must have an entrance in the long side of the box. Is that right? If so, did you have a specific reason for doing so or was it just how things happened?

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## Emma

Hi Prakel,
No, I've got the combs "warm way", with the entrance at one end. I've started running all my colonies that way, as I like the options it gives me for managing brood nests, & it makes the nest easier to read. But they usually tend to have one comb by the entrance that's just stores & pollen - unless they're really getting short of laying space.
I went for end entrance in the longhive in the hopes of (a) avoiding isolation starvation and (b) expanding the nest backwards by adding empty frames. Someday I hope (c) to harvest honey from the back, but it's early days with learning how to run it.
Have you any experience of managing longhives? I would really, really like to compare notes with people who've kept them in a northern climate. I'm mostly going on advice from American websites, with a sprinkling of opinions from wherever else I can find.

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## The Drone Ranger

The lightest option would be Paynes poly nuc + the 2nd brood box that gives 12 frames.
Would need strong strapping in a wind though

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## prakel

> I went for end entrance in the longhive in the hopes of (a) avoiding isolation starvation and (b) expanding the nest backwards by adding empty frames. Someday I hope (c) to harvest honey from the back


I've got a few 13 frame bs boxes which hardly deserve the title of longhive but offer similar options to those which you're searching for. They are supered of course (with dadant shallows) but the 13 frames afford the option of pulling a couple of store combs from the back of the nest at harvest time -adds up nicely but of course in such a small box it does need replacing with sugar or a late summer flow such as the benweed but I'm quite partial to that myself! I have a friend who's taken to running his nationals warm way so that he can (some years) pull that extra honey comb from the back. 

I definitely prefer the warm way for similar reasons to those which you outline; quite often see claims that warm/coldway are now irrelevant with mesh floors but we don't use them so I can't really comment on whether that statement holds water or whether it's simply a misunderstanding of the depth of difference between the two configurations.

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## BethPotters

Hi,

Wow thanks for all the advice. I shall keep it noted ready for hive buying time. I have some interesting visions of you all now :Big Grin:  My hubby will love the practical side, we were having conversations about twin tub botches in to honey extractors the other day and then he dcided to move the motor from our old broken hoover in case it comes in useful. Besides the joy of the bees I think he's going to get a lot of enjoyment out of the general engineering.

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## BethPotters

Hi Emma! Yes, it's via Erica and yourself that I found my mentor! Thanks so much!!! I'm learning loads and really enjoying it all. xxxxx

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## BethPotters

I'm sure i got to see a Paynes hive on Friday, i really liked the ledges where the frames sit and the bees had space to get out the way. So that was noted!! :Wink:

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## BethPotters

The long hives sound interesting and I'm in the same northern climate too.

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## BethPotters

Forgot to say, planning to join ADBKA too. :Smile:

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## BethPotters

Hi I know it sounds self explanatory but what is isolation starvation? I'm trying to think why one way may be more lightly than another?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi I know it sounds self explanatory but what is isolation starvation? I'm trying to think why one way may be more lightly than another?


Its when the bees starve to death with food in easy reach
They can do some moronic things at times
If the stores in question are below them for instance on brood and half (broodbox+super)
So you have to think for them and have stores above the cluster

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## BethPotters

Thanks, thought it must be something like that but then I didn't take in to account them being moronic lol! Now I know its possible and to watch out for it.

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## gavin

> Thanks, thought it must be something like that but then I didn't take in to account them being moronic lol! Now I know its possible and to watch out for it.


To be honest, they do try hard to put their stores above their heads in autumn and perhaps we are to blame for rearranging things and putting them in boxes of shapes not to their liking  :Wink: .  If we do that, then insulation (especially above their heads) helps them warm up enough to leave the cluster and collect stores from the colder parts of the hive to see them through the worst of the weather.  Or give them more food immediately above them.

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## The Drone Ranger

> To be honest, they do try hard to put their stores above their heads in autumn and perhaps we are to blame for rearranging things and putting them in boxes of shapes not to their liking .  If we do that, then insulation (especially above their heads) helps them warm up enough to leave the cluster and collect stores from the colder parts of the hive to see them through the worst of the weather.  Or give them more food immediately above them.


Your right there Gavin I don't much care for brood and a half overwintering because once they get up into the super they stay there and even that small gap between the brood frames and the super frames can become a real barrier 
 In the SBA mag Ian Craig advised two brood boxes with only 8 frames in each plus a wide insulating spacer either side, rearranged so all the food was above the bees in September when any top up feeding was done. 
Wish I was as organised as he is  :Smile:

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## Emma

> I've got a few 13 frame bs boxes which hardly deserve the title of longhive but offer similar options to those which you're searching for. They are supered of course (with dadant shallows) but the 13 frames afford the option of pulling a couple of store combs from the back of the nest at harvest time -adds up nicely but of course in such a small box it does need replacing with sugar or a late summer flow such as the benweed but I'm quite partial to that myself! I have a friend who's taken to running his nationals warm way so that he can (some years) pull that extra honey comb from the back. 
> 
> I definitely prefer the warm way for similar reasons to those which you outline; quite often see claims that warm/coldway are now irrelevant with mesh floors but we don't use them so I can't really comment on whether that statement holds water or whether it's simply a misunderstanding of the depth of difference between the two configurations.


It's good to know you've found the same regarding nest arrangement/reading. I've only a few hives, so I've only made a few observations. & good to know I'm not alone in liking "warm way"! (I just call it "warm way" because other beekeepers usually know what I mean. All my floors are mesh, so warm/cold is almost certainly irrelevant in my case.)
I don't get to harvest that extra honey comb, alas. I came to beekeeping with a big heap of ideals, one of which is to overwinter bees on honey. It makes beekeeping even harder, and I don't know whether I'll stick with it in the long term, but that's what I'm aiming for at the moment.

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## Emma

> Hi I know it sounds self explanatory but what is isolation starvation? I'm trying to think why one way may be more lightly than another?


Longhive entrance position can cause isolation starvation because in cold weather clustered bees have limited options for movement. If they move along and eat through all the honey at one end of the longhive, they may not have the energy (or the right decision-making ability) to double back to get to stores at the other end. If all the stores are packed at the back, then in winter the cluster will start moving backwards into the stores when they run low on food, and can then keep on moving in the same direction into more & more food.
That's the theory, anyway! So far I've found, as Prakel has, that if the entrance is at one end, the bees will tend essentially to start by building brood combs, & store any honey surplus at the back. So the first part of the theory holds. As to whether they'll keep eating backwards during the winter... It worked well for me with one colony, last winter. That's all I know so far, but it was an encouraging start. Most Scottish beekeepers (and most Scottish bee colonies!) will tell you that moving "Up" is what bees do best, but for various reasons I wanted to give "Along" a go.

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## Emma

> Your right there Gavin I don't much care for brood and a half overwintering because once they get up into the super they stay there and even that small gap between the brood frames and the super frames can become a real barrier 
> In the SBA mag Ian Craig advised two brood boxes with only 8 frames in each plus a wide insulating spacer either side, rearranged so all the food was above the bees in September when any top up feeding was done. 
> Wish I was as organised as he is


The bees I've worked with don't seem stupid. During mild weeks in winter, they range to the far edges of the hive to break out some stores. When it's cold and they can't move far from the cluster, they nibble nearby stores. They do all get a whole super full of cuddly dry blankets above them for insulation. (And I watch to see what they're dropping on their varroa boards with helpless fascination, all winter long! - that's how I know which stores they're working on. Health warning, Beth: beekeeping can seriously take over your life.)
Wish I was as organised as Ian Craig, too. Then I wouldn't have spent so much of this week making up brood frames  :Wink:

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## BethPotters

Had to laugh at Emma's warning re bee keeping taking over. I'm what.... 3 weeks in, two hive visits, finished my second book and popping on here twice a day with coffee. My hubby joked last night that I went 21 minutes without mentioning bees!!! I've just started reading this fantastic book that I borrowed from my menor called Honey and Dust, Travels in Search of Sweetness by Piers Moore Ede. (Going to recommend on a general thread too.) It's a novel written by a guy, who after a life changing injury goes on a personal quest to seek out the most amazing honeys and bee histories in the world. 

Thanks for the info too, starting to jot things down for future reference. :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Bees at the Bottom of the Garden  by Alan Campion is a good book to start with Beth

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## BethPotters

Fab thank you, will go and have a look for it. :Big Grin:

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## fatshark

I've always thought that Adrian and Claire Waring's book which used to be called _Teach Yourself Beekeeping_ and is now called _Get started in beekeeping - teach yourself_ is very good. Works from basic principles, includes good coverage of diseases and the principles of swarm control using both conventional artificial swarms and a nuc-based method.

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## BethPotters

Thanks will have a look for it, funnily enough when I went to look for bees at the Bottom found it already on my wishlist! :Embarrassment:

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## greengumbo

Hi Beth - missed this thread until today. Welcome to the forum and to the world of bees. I am a fully paid up bee bore also up here in Aberdeenshire, north of the city. If there is any help you need with anything bee related then feel free to give me a shout.

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## BethPotters

Hi Green gumbo, thanks that's great, may well do.

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