# Beekeepers beekeeping > Local associations >  Moray thefts

## gavin

Sad news via Facebook from the Moray Beekeepers.  I wouldn't necessarily blame people that have visited.  Word gets round about such sites and they are vulnerable to anyone minded to steal.  I hope that they get them.

*WATCH OUT, THERE IS A BEEKEEPING THIEF ABOUT!*

 A number of  hives and bees have been stolen from our training apiary which is near  Elgin. This is very disappointing as the thief is likely to be either  one of our members or someone who has been on a training course with us.  These hives belonged to our members and were used to help train new  beekeepers. We also used them to show groups of school children and  other visitors inside a hive of bees. 
 The police have been informed and are investigating. We have introduced new security measures to prevent it happening again. 
 We have also introduced the following new rule. 
 'No one is allowed on the training Apiary site without being accompanied by a member of the committee'. 
 I'm sure you will understand why we have to bring this in and ask members for their co-operation. 
 If anyone has any information please let us know as we would like them back!

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## Jon

This seems to be getting more common. There are a lot of thefts reported on BKF, mostly in Southern England.

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## HJBee

There seems to be a trend with timings of thefts, usually around now - April, when the Hives are more manageable / transportable?

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## drumgerry

Gavin knowing the site concerned I would tend to agree with Moray Beeks that the culprit is likely to be someone who has visited.  It's an appalling thing to have happened and I sincerely hope the police catch whoever it is.  We are quite close geographically to the apiary so everyone in our association is on the lookout for someone trying to offload kit and bees.

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## busybeephilip

More bees stolen !
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34112492

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## gwizzie

All I can say is If they do find out who did it *CUT OFF THERE HANDS*  I WOULD, as they did in the olden days. They also should be named and shamed  :Mad:

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## gavin

Perhaps a bit over the top. I'd be happy with them being caught, prosecuted and convicted.

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## Jimbo

The thing I find strange is not so much who is doing the stealing but who is buying the the hives 
If somebody I did not know offered me bees I would want to know a bit more about them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## gavin

I reckon the smaller scale thefts are often isolated beekeepers replenishing depleted apiares after their lack of decent management left them with empty boxes.  However the trade in bees probably takes some too.  There are plenty of characters in beekeeping (again, in the main unlikely to be those who join associations) who trade in a dodgy manner.  Passing off imports as local stock for example.

The Tim Lovett interview on R Scotland this morning, playing up the financial value of single hives, will not have reduced some folk's urge to help themselves.

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## gavin

It is a simple matter to write something characteristic on the top bars, acronym for the association or business, or your postcode.  It looks like the Anglesey victim didn't do this.  It has to be a bold thief who is happy to have that in their hives while there is an active inspection service - unless you are at a time of year when shook swarming might work.  Selling-on marked and stolen frames is not going to be easy.

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## busybeephilip

A cheap frame top bar brander would be a good idea, electric rather that blow torch ?

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## gwizzie

> A cheap frame top bar brander would be a good idea, electric rather that blow torch ?


Humm where would one acquire one of these I wonder ??????? Pray tell!

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## gwizzie

Not sure if ultraviolet pens would be a good idea ??? that way they would not know there marked  :Wink:  until the UV light was shined on them....

Humm this has got me thinking know  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Jon

A lot of the recent AFB cases in NI can be traced back to one bee trader who was also marketing them as 'Native Irish bees' without any valilidation from NIHBS.
The first case of AFB was brought to the attention of the bee inspector by a beginner who had bought a nuc and knew there was something not quite right with it so called in the inspector.

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## gwizzie

Just came across this and I think they're worth every penny, I will be getting a few that's for sure. 

92129.jpg

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p92129

NOW only £69.11 small price to pay!

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## busybeephilip

I suppose there is nothing to stop anyone selling bees no matter how they are described.

Its good that the beginner noticed that something was wrong but the disease may have originated from a source where the bees were robbing from and not the person who sold the bees?

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## prakel

http://www.google.co.uk/aclk?sa=l&ai...n%3Faff%3D1108

Might be up to the job....

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## SDM

The Anglesey thefts were from a training apiary too, that's the angle I would pursue.

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## beejazz

> Just came across this and I think they're worth every penny, I will be getting a few that's for sure. 
> 
> 92129.jpg
> 
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p92129
> 
> NOW only £69.11 small price to pay!


I bought a camera of this type, they are good, the images captured in daylight are brilliant, but not so clear at night with IR.  The thief stealing from my apiary came at night, I recognise the bas***d from the fuzzy image, but apparently not good enough for the police to arrest him.  (So they say)  A small comfort though to know my suspicions were correct.

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## SDM

They should at least have knocked on his door, but it seems most forces don't actually investigate crime any more.
You do have another option to force their hand(I've used it this year for a theft that the police would not investigate)
You know this person committed the crime, therefore you have the right to arrest him yourself. If you don't feel up to that simply co tact the officer that took your statement and tell him you are going to do it, they will then have to come and get him anyway or arrest you for unlawful detention ( they won't do this as then they would have to explain why they didn't follow up on your initial id and of course because you would counter sue for the same unlawful detention).
People never take it very well when arrested by a citizen and in 8 times I've done it always try to leave . At this point you may use whatever force is necessary to detain him til the police arrive, but because you are not trained in arrest and restraint you get massive leaway on reasonable force in court. For example , 3 broken ribs and a ruptured kidney was considered ok to break the grip on the car my thief was trying to get into. So there's the opportunity for a little personal retribution as well.

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## Kate Atchley

> ... People never take it very well when arrested by a citizen and in 8 times I've done it always try to leave . At this point you may use whatever force is necessary to detain him til the police arrive, but because you are not trained in arrest and restraint you get massive leaway on reasonable force in court. For example , 3 broken ribs and a ruptured kidney was considered ok to break the grip on the car my thief was trying to get into. So there's the opportunity for a little personal retribution as well.


Wow! Must avoid upsetting you SDM!

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## busybeephilip

Knowing how to do the finger/hand restraint helps

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## alclosier

SDM, I think you need to be very careful in recommending people carry out citizens arrests. The risks attached can be very high, to be honest I don't think giving someone 3 broken ribs and a ruptured kidney for trying to steal a car is proportionate to the incident. You were very lucky you were not charged with Serious Assault, especially considering that you have stated that you are a former police officer who would have the skill set to restrain someone without causing injuries consistent with repeated punches to the torso.

Beejaz, if you are not happy with the quality of the investigation and that you believe you can I'd your thief I would advise you to make a complaint about the quality of the investigation. Not all police officers are of the same quality and you could be in this situation. I would be going down the line of it is this person because I recognise the following characteristics...

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## gavin

I was speechless when I saw that last night, so I said nothing .... 

The great majority of the inhabitants of the forum are sensible enough to know that they can't break ribs and rupture kidneys with impunity.  Folk who do that should be behind bars.

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## mbc

> I was speechless.


Not surprised Gavin, deeply unpleasant.

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## SDM

> I was speechless when I saw that last night, so I said nothing .... 
> 
> The great majority of the inhabitants of the forum are sensible enough to know that they can't break ribs and rupture kidneys with impunity.  Folk who do that should be behind bars.


You may do whatever is necessary to stop the person you've arrested leaving/resisting. If he didn't try to leave you could not use force, but as I said you are unlikely to encounter any criminal that will simply sit and wait for the police to come. The damage given to him matched exactly what I said I was trying to do, ie. breaking his grip on the car he was trying to escape in. He received no blows to the face or head. If you've ever tried to pull a 6'5" 30yr old male away from something be has a firm grip on you would understand why it is an approved technique to strike(usually under the armpit) I simply started at his kidneys and worked up. Yes I took the opportunity to hurt him more than necessary. I was an arrest and restraint instructor and I know several other ways to do it with less harm, but as a police officer I was not dealing (often) with people stealing "my" property. Those of you who criticise, should probably wait to see how much self control you exhibit when confronted with your own thieves
The extra damage to your thief is optional, the advice to force the hand of the police by arresting him remains the same.

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## Kate Atchley

> ... Yes I took the opportunity to hurt him more than necessary. I was an arrest and restraint instructor and I know several other ways to do it with less harm ...


Beyond unpleasant ... deliberate thuggery ... abhorrent.

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## drumgerry

SDM you should know that the legal standard which operates here in Scotland is that of reasonable force. I'd have thought if you had carried out your arrest as described in this country the Procurator Fiscal could have made a case against you quite easily. 

But perhaps you should remember that this is a beekeeping forum rather than police war stories monthly.

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## alclosier

> But perhaps you should remember that this is a beekeeping forum rather than police war stories monthly.


Amen to that. I could easily add additional comments to SDMs reply which appalled me. However as said by a more learned member this is a beekeeping forum not the retired police officers war story forum. I wouldn't normally reply to an inflammatory post but this one needed challenging. Apologies for lighting the touch paper.

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## gavin

> Apologies for lighting the touch paper.


No need!  I'm glad that you did, I was struggling to find the right words.  SDM previously accused someone, on zero evidence, of defrauding HMRC.  I warned him that one more and he'd be off the forum for good.  That thread has since been tidied up but the threat remains.

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## beejazz

SDM.....I'm a girl, well I was once, lol!  Brute force is not my thing so if the thief is ever to be brought to justice it will have to be with police assistance.

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## EK.Bee

Best to be cautious what one posts online  :Wink: 

Thornes do a lovely branding iron & relatively cheap
Not electric unfortunately, so a bit time consuming

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## drumgerry

Do we have to rope the bees first before we brand them?!  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Best to be cautious what one posts online 
> 
> Thornes do a lovely branding iron & relatively cheap
> Not electric unfortunately, so a bit time consuming


Can we really brand bee thieves I thought that all went out in the 18th Century  :Smile:

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## EK.Bee

> Do we have to rope the bees first before we brand them?!


Roping them is easy, it's tying off all the pairs of legs that's the difficulty  :Smile:

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