# General beekeeping > Bee health >  EFSA report on risks of spread of small hive beetle

## gavin

This Scientific Opinion was published yesterday by the European Food Safety Agency.  

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/151215

Some obvious (and sensible) stuff on the movement of hives, bumble bees and 'commodities', and also this:

_EFSA also assessed risk-mitigating factors that could be effective in  ensuring safe intra-EU trade of live bees, apiculture products and  by-products. The main conclusions were:
_

_detection of SHB by visual inspection has been found to be highly effective and feasible for consignments of queen bees;__use of fine mesh (with a maximum 2mm pore size) to avoid  contamination during transport is highly effective for consignments of  bees, bee products to be used in apiculture, non-extracted comb honey  and used beekeeping equipment;__freezing, heating and desiccation of bee products and used equipment  are highly effective at reducing the risk of SHB transmission;__beekeepers should keep records of movements of their hives to facilitate investigation of outbreaks._

I'm not sure whether they are suggesting that these measures should apply to all EU remaining trade outside the 100km zones.  The measures would be too weak for trade from inside these areas - detection of eggs in/on queen cages is not easy, fine mesh is difficult to fix without gaps and you'd have to be sure that there were no beetles inside.

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## Calluna4u

> I'm not sure whether they are suggesting that these measures should apply to all EU remaining trade outside the 100km zones.  The measures would be too weak for trade from inside these areas - detection of eggs in/on queen cages is not easy, fine mesh is difficult to fix without gaps and you'd have to be sure that there were no beetles inside.


One mitigating factor there would be that banking of queens in their cages prior to sale is relatively rare in Europe. Most times the queens are freshly caged....even if just a change cage.....with fresh attendants...immediately prior to shipping. Supplies are always less than demand so banking is a luxury most producers just don't have, and banked cages are a definite possibility for becoming contaminated.

Also.......there are no proposals that I am aware of to open up the infested area and permitting the sale of bees from there, and I would be concerned if anything else were to be the case, though taking Sicily off the list in a year or two if nothing more is found might be in order.

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## Greengage

A chap was telling me about a report from Cornell university stateing they have discovered another beetle related to SHB which does not cause as much damage and defends its territory against Aethina tumida (Murray) anyone hear of this.
How will Ireland be effected next year if we have a Brexit from Europe.In accordance with Article 3 of Council Directive 92/65/EEC European Union Member States must not prohibit or restrict for health reasons the international movement of bees once all requirements set down in EU legislation have been met. Direct imports of bees into Ireland from outside the EU are not permitted although imports from other EU Member States which fulfil the EUs bee health certification requirements are permitted. Will we be importing bees from Britian or Northern Ireland, nobody told the bees the couldnt drift south.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-11-19a.306

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## gavin

I wonder if it makes anyone round here nervous that the Sunday name for the small hive beetle is _Aethina tumida_ Murray?   :EEK!:

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## Bumble

Does the beetle know it's called Murray?

Do they do anything special to deal with SHB in the parts of Africa where it came from, or isn't it a particularly common pest there?

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## Calluna4u

> I wonder if it makes anyone round here nervous that the Sunday name for the small hive beetle is _Aethina tumida_ Murray?


Lol Gavin. Might not be as off the wall a comment as you think. My first name comes from my mothers family name. They were all engineers etc, and scientists. The gentleman involved is thought to possibly be a (very) distant relative.

Of more interest to you perhaps is that he was from a Perthshire family which had a main residence not more than a kilometre from a certain double FB occurrence this summer.

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## gavin

You're even better connected than I thought!

I'm claiming Patrick Matthew as I have Errol/Grange Matthews in my ancestry back to the 1600s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Matthew

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## The Drone Ranger

I thought the Commercial beekeepers got their Queens from Australia C4u ? and the Penguins on a plane bees from Italy were a one off when the Gov gave a subsidy to replace commercial colonies lost when a bad Winter caught the beekeepers out


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## Calluna4u

> I thought the Commercial beekeepers got their Queens from Australia C4u ? and the Penguins on a plane bees from Italy were a one off when the Gov gave a subsidy to replace commercial colonies lost when a bad Winter caught the beekeepers out
> 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Most of the package bees that come into the UK are from Italy, albeit in recent years not from the south. Puglia is the main producing area, some 400 + Km from the SHB, but the ones in the last three years have all been from Piemonte which is nearer Dover than it is to SHB.

Many queen shipments come into the UK from Italy. Again most of ours are from Piemonte and a particularly good breeder in the mountains. by 'ours' I don't mean coming into this area, I source for a significant spread of UK buyers and the vast majority are to English based clients. Sicily was, until two years ago, a significant source of package bees, Calabria not. There was/is a significant queen breeder on the northern edge of the SHB area that supplied good bees, but like all of that area they have had to revert to honey production for income. The Italian authorities are being very straight in their dealings on this matter. Sicily and Calabria are not permitted to send bees outwith their boundaries, and even tighter rules are in play in the infest area and its environs.

Not very many queens come in from Australia. I have done it only once and that was many years ago. Now only Western Australia is permitted, but they only have Italian type bees and they are not UK suited. New Zealand is a different matter, and some truly excellent carnica stock is available from there and has been imported in considerable quantity. A subsidised import of packages and queens from there (and it was lead by Scottish Enterprise and part funded by Perth and Kinross and Angus councils) took place in 2009. Even subsidised it was still not cheap. NZ product, with airfreight bills included is far dearer than from the EU. With subsidy it only brought the price down to a little below EU levels, but the big thing was the immaculate and proven health status.

The more recent Scottish government aid was a part of a hard weather payment programme. Other farming sectors got such aid to a far greater extent than bee farming. Full submissions demonstrating the extent of hard weather linked losses had to be submitted, then a committee, of which no bee farmer was part, decided how to divide up the fixed available pot. In the end, on average, the bee farmers received about 20% of their loss back. This was NOT related to any subsidised bee purchases. In our case we used a large part of it to establish our queen and nuc producing unit, so in no way could you say it was subsiding imports. It was each bee farms decision as to what they did with the money. Some would not be here today without it, and as no one had any money after the hard seasons there would be abandoned apiaries around the country...in an EFB area too....not a good idea.

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## Jon

Beebase has a list of EU based queen imports

http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/publi...portReport.cfm

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
I was remembering your interview with the barefoot beekeeper about importing your  queens
It was a while back and I had it in mind it was Australia but it was New Zealand right enough
Are the Italians as good then ?
If it was me and my livelihood was at stake I might feel safer getting queens from a country where there was no small hive beetle 
A hobby beekeeper like me can always just pack it in if things get too problematic
Why did the Commercial beekeepers lose so many hives to the cold weather ?
I would have thought they would be the least likely to lose any because they have the most knowledge and expertise.


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## The Drone Ranger

> Beebase has a list of EU based queen imports
> 
> http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/publi...portReport.cfm


Hi Jon
That's very interesting 
Am I reading that right 
Most of the queens come from Greece, Slovenia and Denmark?
Most of the package bees come from Italy ? the (home of the European small hive beetle )





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## Calluna4u

> Hi Jon
> That's very interesting 
> Am I reading that right 
> Most of the queens come from Greece, Slovenia and Denmark?
> Most of the package bees come from Italy ? the (home of the European small hive beetle )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



its hopelessly inaccurate. Although they SHOULD all be reported, most EU shipments just arrive in the post or airmail. They have certificates with them if done properly, but many many shipments are not on that list. The beekeeper has to do the reporting, and several I can think of just don't bother. The import is legal and correctly documented, just not reported on to beebase.

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## mbc

> its hopelessly inaccurate..........have certificates with them if done properly, ..... import is legal and correctly documented, just not reported on to beebase.


I agree it's hopelessly inaccurate.  It would be interesting to know just how inaccurate,  what proportion are done properly, and what proportion of those get recorded. I fancy at least 50% of small consignments don't trouble the scorers and a good number of larger lots too. I doubt anyone really has a handle on it.

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## prakel

> They have certificates with them if done properly, but many many shipments are not on that list. The beekeeper has to do the reporting, and several I can think of just don't bother. The import is legal and correctly documented, just not reported on to beebase.


Just trying to get my head around this. I'd previously thought that failure to report the imminent arrival of a consignment makes it illegal whether it has full documentation to that point or not. Quite surprised that's not actually the case.

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## gavin

> Just trying to get my head around this. I'd previously thought that failure to report the imminent arrival of a consignment makes it illegal whether it has full documentation to that point or not. Quite surprised that's not actually the case.


This quote from BeeBase shows that importing without declaring it in advance to the authorities is indeed an illegal act.  Their bolding, not mine.

http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?sectionid=47

*Imports*
It is a *legal* requirement that you notify the *National Bee Unit* of imports of bees from outside the UK. You can do this by completing the Importer Notification Form  and posting, faxing or emailing it to us. Alternatively you can log in  to the Beekeeper pages of BeeBase and click the 'Import Notifications'  link from the left hand index. 

The legal way is that the exporter (within the EU) obtains a health certificate and the exporting country enters the data into the TRACES system.  The receiving country should be notified by the importer and the two sets of records match up.  In theory this gives traceability if 'something happens' .... for example SHB being found in the country of origin allowed detailed inspections of the apiaries of those beekeepers who had worked within the system.  Those acting illegally could not be traced and inspected, a scandalous state of affairs in my view.

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## Calluna4u

> Just trying to get my head around this. I'd previously thought that failure to report the imminent arrival of a consignment makes it illegal whether it has full documentation to that point or not. Quite surprised that's not actually the case.


You are correct. My wording was not as good as it should have been. I should have re rad what I typed rather than fire it off. The words 'with the exception of being' should have been in the middle of the last sentence, rather than 'just not'. It is also the case that it should be prenotified rather than after the event. For queen shipments it is often not done. For packages? Well until this year not too many of the shipments showed up. This year better, but still not perfect by a long way.

However, and I aint going into this hair splitting but from the wording you quote its not clear if this renders such a shipment 'illegal' or 'not legal'. Apparently they are very different things.

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## Calluna4u

> The legal way is that the exporter (within the EU) obtains a health certificate and the exporting country enters the data into the TRACES system.  The receiving country should be notified by the importer and the two sets of records match up.  In theory this gives traceability if 'something happens' .... for example SHB being found in the country of origin allowed detailed inspections of the apiaries of those beekeepers who had worked within the system.  Those acting illegally could not be traced and inspected, a scandalous state of affairs in my view.


Yes, but the real world does not quite operate that way. Are you going to set up some kind of surveillance system on every beekeeper and open all their mail to look for bees being imported, or search their vehicles at ports, or their baggage at airports? We have to be aware of our UNimportance. Within the bee community we can get all animated and jump up and down like Zebedee as much as we like. Those who would have to fund draconian border controls over bees will think they have far more serious matters to expend their resources on.

The matching up bit gives real issues at times.

1. The shipper comes up short at source, or ships a few extra. Do you gas the bees as the papers no longer match? In theory that is what should happen if they are caught in transit and it says on the papers you should have 400 units but only have say 312.
2. As is the custom of the trade from several origins, you order 400, get papers for 400, and then you find the shipper has put in 408. 2% overship, or even 4% from some provenances, is quite common, to cover for losses in transit. By the system that is illegal.
3. You order 400 queens from an EU breeder. You notify the UK that you believe them to be coming on a certain date. The breeder cannot deliver (commonplace, esp in the UK) as ordered, and sends multiple smaller shipments over a protracted period and still comes up short.....I am sure anyone with any depth of experience has met this.......then its still illegal.

There are several parts of the UK where disease is common and there is no official presale inspection I would be far more worried about than professionally produced and well inspected and certificated product of breeders the other side of the channel.

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## Calluna4u

> Most of the package bees come from Italy ? the (home of the European small hive beetle )
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


The packages *I* brought in come from the hives of a personal friend of mines in Piemonte, around Turin. The queen breeder is another guy, friendly with us both and VERY highly rated, about 40 miles east of Asti, also in Piemonte.

Would you find it fair that if there were to be some ailment found in the bees within 20 miles of Dover, that it seemed to be contained, and there were strong movement controls and destruction policies enforced for an major extended area around the problem, that sitting in Angus you should not be allowed to sell a nuc or a queen to anyone else? Same would apply to all UK beeks btw, as apart from the extreme north ALL are nearer Dover than the SHB is to the producing area. Fair? Its what UK beeks (mostly smaller scale) are basically demanding of Italy.

Well SHB is considerably further away from the bee producing area we use than Dover is from Angus. Italy is a very long country.

I want to send breeder queens out to Italy so we get daughters our own stock back as the queens we bring in in the packages. Not so easy, and the issues lie here rather than abroad.

However, Scotland is dealing with these issues in a more constructive way than elsewhere and we have real hope of there being a proper process here.

ps...Not all the Italian packages listed on bee base came through me. I cannot comment on the exact provenance of the others, but NO WAY will they be from Calabria or Sicily.

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## prakel

> However, and I aint going into this hair splitting but from the wording you quote its not clear if this renders such a shipment 'illegal' or 'not legal'. Apparently they are very different things.


That's quite possibly the case and it's not something I'd want to get involved in discussing either. 

If unreported imports are as common as repeatedly stated on here then there's plainly no urgency for a clamp down, compare this  to a post by SDM a few weeks ago where he told us of a local bee inspector, giving a talk at their local club, clearly stating that they were being instructed to "come down hard" on people continuing to use unlicenced oxalic mixtures.

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## prakel

As always, some interesting points raised by Calluna4u. 

With regard to final consignment being +/- the expected (stated) number, do you think that the people that you've heard of who fail to report their imports would look differently at the paperwork if there was facility to make the pre-arrival declaration but then to have an 'ammendments' window of a couple of days to clear up any discrepencies. Probably too simple a solution where government paperwork is concerned, of course.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
I hear what you say about the size of Italy and agree that Dover is quite far away from me 
We all find ourselves coming up with reasons to carry on doing things we just want do anyway for our own personal or financial reasons (justifications)

I expect small hive beetle will get here sooner or later
I am not an expert on bee movements throughout Europe And UK

What I can say is that when it arrives it won't have been brought here by me

Apologies if that seems rude 

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## prakel

> I hear what you say about the size of Italy and agree that Dover is quite far away from me


I'm just glad that he chose to use Dover as an example, rather than some other south coast port......  :Smile:

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## Greengage

An interesting topic for discussion, It is said that it pupates in Light sandy soils  and warm conditions are required for pupation and completion of the life cycle. Therefore  heavy clay/wet soils may not suit  and maybe only Aperies on light soils in milder parts will be more affected than those on heavy clay in colder areas or Acid soils of upland blankket bogs or lowland raised bogs. Thankfully it has not arrived yet but we still dont know for sure if it will survive here or if iit will have some natural predators like starlings or rooks when it is in its pupation stage or if we get a very hard winter like we did a few years ago. If it did arrive and If every beekeeper placed a trap outside their hive to trap larvae on leaving would it not be easier to control, In Ireland we have some sentenial hives near Ports and airports so they should give an indication if it arrives. Do they have similar procedures in palce in Engalnd/ Scotland and Wales or Northern ireland.

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## Calluna4u

> I expect small hive beetle will get here sooner or later
> I am not an expert on bee movements throughout Europe And UK
> 
> What I can say is that when it arrives it won't have been brought here by me
> 
> Apologies if that seems rude 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Not rude at all. You play the ball. That's fine. My opinion on the threat posed by SHB is a matter of previous record. I do not fear it at all, ditto for Tropilaelaps in its turn.

I think you have more to fear from proximity of local EFB and AFB cases than you will ever have to fear from SHB, which has only proven to e a problem in the sub tropical USA.

Do we want SHB? Of course not! However as an example of the issue of cutting off the supply of bees you have to consider the impact on other sectors of a total ban. The single farm in Hereford had big issues getting bees, and the shortage threatened their productivity of UK table apples by a six figure sum. Local bees just not available. In the Herefordshire area alone this threat from lack of pollinators amounted to seven figures........so then add in Evesham, Cambridgeshire and most especially Kent. Do you just want to tell them they cannot get bees? We are not a single issue world, and all actions have consequences. When the consequences are worse than the problem then you have to consider what is worst. 

As I am sure some will tell you, I started the bringing in the bees as a common good project. Several businesses would not be here today without it. Several families would have lost their homes, in widely spread parts of the UK. A lot of fruit pollination would have gone undone........to values dwarfing any damage SHB will ever do. We are not a metaphorical island, no matter how much some would like it to be. Most places with SHB just see it as a thing they see and do not take any action about it as it is not seen as a threat (try Australia with it far more SHB favourable climate than here). I do understand our authorities stance on it however, and can imagine the long knives that would be out for them if they said it was not a big issue, so they HAVE to be SEEN to take it as a serious threat (many reasons for that, most of them not exactly what meets the eye.).

As for financial gain? Well they are actually good bees so can get a good honey crop from them with minimal fuss, but as for directly benefitting me financially? Well its marginal. I don't do it to get rich from bee sales. You will already be very well aware that I work on  twin track approach and are doing our best to have locally raised (but not Amm, just good bees) nucs and queens available in good amounts, so we have a foot in both camps. Some times the local stuff will suffice, other times not. Forget fruit pollination, forget environmental well being, both of which flow from there being abundant pollinators.....just from honey alone, once you go to retail level an average honey crop from our unit will be generating a million pounds a year in economic activity. Bee shortages have a cost way beyond the value of the bees themselves. Also about 90% of what I bring in goes to SE England.

But back to SHB..........given the fact that over 80% of South African trade (outside southern Africa) in commodities that are possible vectors over the last 150 years was with the UK.... what do you think the odds are that it has never been here? Pretty slim I would say. So where is it?

Meanwhile we will work away responsibly with stock that is over 1000Km from the nearest SHB, inspected twice a year, and then even the individual packages are inspected prior to dispatch, and then they are seen by the bee inspectors here before hiving too.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
It's always puzzled me how it is possible for a commercial operation to be short of bees
Goodness knows most people have the opposite problem too many bees and not enough equipment to put them in
Overwintering bees is so simple why would there be a shortfall

It might also be worth mentioning that there are plenty other pollinators other than honey bees
Laying claim to all pollination might be a good sales tactic for the bee farmers association but not one that convinces me
I thought the New Zealand queens you were keen on gave all the advantages of early hive expansion and none of the risks of packages

Anyway I don't want to upset anyone and I can tell it won't influence you or others plans
The difficulty I find myself in, is that while I am not a natural supporter of calls to ban bee imports, given a vote I would be forced to vote in favour of a ban, because it seems common sense won't prevail

Apologies once again and I will leave the subject at that

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## Calluna4u

> Hi C4u
> It's always puzzled me how it is possible for a commercial operation to be short of bees
> 
> *Its very easy. First thing is the demands of the season, and the heather working is hard on the bees, yet this is not a Scotland only phenomenon. It happens all over the UK, and indeed is no more prevalent in professionals than in amateurs. Amateurs can happily forego any kind of crop to make natural increase after splitting. we do that after a bad winter and we can lose the house. Its also not an every year issue. Most years we have enough bees to comfortably recover from the losses, but there are bad wintering years, that's generally not down to the beekeeper but to the summer before. Three years ago was very bad, and a 60% loss rate across north and west Britain, amateur and professional alike, was almost normal. Your business is gone if you force them to recover from that organically, in what is already a marginal at best business. Honey prices are currently about 60% of where they should be if you index link them back 30 or 40 years.*
> 
> Goodness knows most people have the opposite problem too many bees and not enough equipment to put them in
> 
> *Some years. Point is its unreliable. If you never have any issues with losses or understrength hives you are a very special case. Not many are like that.*
> 
> ...


....

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## mbc

There's a serious mismatch between this apparent urgent need for pollinators and the bfa only placing 2000 colonies. Surely they'd be asked to place far more if there was the need for more colonies.

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## Calluna4u

> There's a serious mismatch between this apparent urgent need for pollinators and the bfa only placing 2000 colonies. Surely they'd be asked to place far more if there was the need for more colonies.


Not really. The number willing to undertake commercial pollination is quite small, and there is a poor track record of bee farmers sticking with the scheme. They tend to run off and do the deal privately after a season or two. The small number is only those placed through the official BFA pollination scheme. It will be dwarfed by the number working direct with the grower. One guy alone left the BFA once he had been given enough pollination contracts......saved the subscription and the small admin charge. Very poor example of solidarity IMO, and I told him I thought that. He was a big player in pollination. Most bees offered to the scheme are placed, and those not placed are usually due to some requirement of the grower or the beekeeper that means a match cannot be made. The biggest demand is in Kent, and not many are willing to haul their tail from far flung parts of the country, and then be ready to move out again on only a few hours notice.
 The needs of pollination are quite tough and the growers like to work with a small number of beekeepers and preferably only one per farm. Administering the movement and scheduling of moves and spraying work is very tough, and then trying to work with multiple beekeepers is like herding cats.  One farm I was speaking to had been unable for many years to get larger beekeepers in and stated that they had (in Kent) 60 or 70 amateur beekeepers to liase with and it was a full time job for a man just trying to get these people coordinated, and it was utterly stressful fielding all the complaints from the beekeepers about everything from bee shifting spraying needs, even the mowing of the orchard understory.

There really is a need for migratory pollination, but the UK culture is such that paying a fair rate for it is not well established, especially when there are those out there, mainly amateurs who do not do their sums, who are happy to put their bees in just in return for a place to keep them. Then they cause all sorts of grief to the grower when they bring in extra bees they need from elsewhere. They almost invariably complain that they believe the incoming bees to be diseased and just don't let up. Makes relationships difficult.

There is always someone wanting to place a few hives, for nothing, and then grumbling when the farmer brings in more bees, as quite correctly he knows that the guys 6 hives aint going to pollinate 100 acres of apples properly.

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## mbc

I can see the frustration with people cutting their own deal but if the subscription and admin charge are really that small then work needs to be done on the perceived benefits of going through the bfa.
I did look into it myself and it seemed brilliant to have a guaranteed payment, but I'm not prepared to ship my bees any great distance.  I do pollinate a few smallish apple orchards locally but it only involves a couple of dozen colonies and the orchardists are always prepared to pay up. (I charge £40/colony, is this about right?)
Again, to my mind, there is a mismatch between the implied importance of  pollination to the farmer and their acceptance of using amateurs to save a few bob.

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## Jon

Locally, I don't know of any apple business prepared to pay for pollination.
I get e-mails through to the BKA secretary account stating the the trees are 'ready' - but they want beekeepers to shift colonies there without a fee.
I don't know who could be bothered with that.
Probably a case of penny wise pound foolish on the part of the growers.

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## Calluna4u

> I can see the frustration with people cutting their own deal but if the subscription and admin charge are really that small then work needs to be done on the perceived benefits of going through the bfa.
> I did look into it myself and it seemed brilliant to have a guaranteed payment, but I'm not prepared to ship my bees any great distance.  I do pollinate a few smallish apple orchards locally but it only involves a couple of dozen colonies and the orchardists are always prepared to pay up. (I charge £40/colony, is this about right?)
> Again, to my mind, there is a mismatch between the implied importance of  pollination to the farmer and their acceptance of using amateurs to save a few bob.


At 40 pounds you are cheap. Not ridiculous but I THINK the BFA scheme charges in the mid 50s.

British farmers do have a culture, as Jon touched on too, of being penny wise and pound foolish.

One example I met was of a middle sized farmer who declined to pay for bees but you could put them in for nothing if you wanted but at your own risk. He knew both his neighbours paid for bees to be brought in and his attitude was why should he pay, enough will fly across and do his too for nothing. I know of no experiments in the real field situation where  farm has excluded bees from part of their crop and seen the consequences for fruit quantity and quality. It has been researched at institutes in many places but in the field I am unaware of anything. I guess the difference is that some choose to 'get by' without paying, but others pay. and generally are top dogs. They are often, to use a word Gavin will like, 'grippit'. The bee densities used in Europe on apples especially is pretty high, they pay well, and the excel at their job of producing table fruit. It may be that quality is considered secondary, in the cider apple trade at least.

Complex subject, and if you go beyond apples there is still a massive pollinator deficit here for field crops. It will only be truly lucrative for the beekeepers if there is a major culture change. However the farmers want the bees, they seem never to get enough, but they still think we are all folks doing it for love not lucre. They are for the most part right. Even those who do willingly pay don't get everything they want, so extra bees ARE needed in many (not all) seasons.

As for the guy who left? Sigh. He got what he came for, the use of the BFA to get some pollination deals. He forgets that the BFA works hard for its members and everyone elses subs had in part gone to getting him what he needed. He could only see (or only wanted to see) the BFA as a cost after that. Harsh and selfish for sure, but just something we have to put up with. we work to create a better situation for professional beekeepers. That this then also benefits others is not an issue that bothers us, however sometimes human nature disappoints.

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## prakel

> One example I met was of a middle sized farmer who declined to pay for bees but you could put them in for nothing if you wanted but at your own risk. He knew both his neighbours paid for bees to be brought in and his attitude was why should he pay, enough will fly across and do his too for nothing.


I seem to remember a direct reverse example of this when a beefarmer stated quite clearly on the Radio 4 farming programme that his bees would probably just fly over the hedge to a nearby rape field. It was a piece on apple pollination.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Locally, I don't know of any apple business prepared to pay for pollination.
> I get e-mails through to the BKA secretary account stating the the trees are 'ready' - but they want beekeepers to shift colonies there without a fee.
> I don't know who could be bothered with that.
> Probably a case of penny wise pound foolish on the part of the growers.


Hi Jon
If I grew apples I wouldn't waste time and money with beekeepers and honey bees
They will fly up to 3 miles looking for the _best_ nectar source
That means they will just as likely fly off to somewhere else even if they are smack bang in the middle of an orchard
Bees like mason bees or bumble bees stick pretty close to the nest area about 200 yards or so 
They dont sting and are better pollinators and harder workers than honey bees to boot
The only thing they require is a bit of nesting area (tubes in the case of mason bees) and some pollen yielding plants which don't flower as the same time as apples

In many old books you can read how they would try to innoculate some syrup with blossoms from the target crop and feed it to the hives attempting to get the honey bees focused on that
You cant fool them for long though they will find something better as soon as conditions slow nectar from the apples

So why would you choose honey bees which cost money to introduce while possibly providing no pollination improvement over gentle busy pollinators that are guaranteed to stay in the orchard ? 
You wouldn't unless the BFA and the BBKA advertising campaigns fooled you into it
Any claims that without honey bees there would be no pollination of crops is mostly just a case smoke and mirrors

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## Jon

> Any claims that without honey bees there would be no pollination of crops is mostly just a case smoke and mirrors


I doubt there are enough non honeybee pollinators. Keith Delaplane has a lecture which includes research on pollinator efficiency and although honeybees are not the most efficient there is nothing else around which has colonies of 40,000+

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## The Drone Ranger

> I doubt there are enough non honeybee pollinators. Keith Delaplane has a lecture which includes research on pollinator efficiency and although honeybees are not the most efficient there is nothing else around which has colonies of 40,000+


That might be true for US Almond deserts etc but theres no reason why apple orchards can't support plenty pollinating insects
Apples are not that attractive a prospect for honey bees 
There is a general assumption that any time anything gets pollinated it must have been by honey bees 
That is simply not true there are loads of other pollinating insects
Bee colonies being moved in are just a sticking plaster and a not very good one
The argument that if we don't import thousands of package bees every year nothing will get pollinated is just not credible

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## prakel

I would imagine that primary use of wild pollinators could well lead to a PR nightmare in any situation where sprays are deemed to be needed. At least with managed honey bees the focus can be deflected a little.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I would imagine that primary use of wild pollinators could well lead to a PR nightmare in any situation where sprays are deemed to be needed. At least with managed honey bees the focus can be deflected a little.


Hi prakel
There are always conflicting opinions on these issues https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...UE8Vhey4d95gUA

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## prakel

> Hi prakel
> There are always conflicting opinions on these issues


DR, that's a nice link (some other, non bee, stuff that looks quite interesting on their main site too), thanks. 

I'm not surprised that they believe healthy honey bee colonies, working in an environment which supports wild bees, are necessary. That makes perfect sense to me. Even if they go on to say that this can best be achieved in combination with no chemical input to the crops -as you'd expect from an organic farming research centre. Long way to go on that one.

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## mbc

> The argument that if we don't import thousands of package bees every year nothing will get pollinated is just not credible


I dont think that's the argument,  it's more that productivity per acre is much better with adequate pollination, making the whole enterprise more commercially viable. The guys who pay me with no quibble have been advised to do so ( or at least to pay someone to pollinate) by agronomist consultants. No doubt many blossoms would get pollinated anyway, but if an orchardist has invested heavily in planting an orchard, installing irrigation, soil testing and nutritional ammendments, then they  want the best crop possible and that can only be possible with optimal pollination.
Packages aren't the best way to achieve this, but probably a much cheaper option than sourcing overwintered colonies after a disastrous season.

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## The Drone Ranger

I'm not trying to make a point about pollination contracts mbc just that is being touted as a reason for colony imports
Here's what I don't get
You mention after disastrous season for losses when does that happen ?
If I lost 10% that would be a very bad result in my world
When colonies were being made up with imported carnie queens at the start of the season they were apparently marvellous productive colonies by the time they were moved to the rape
So when did it become essential to bring in packages of bees 

If we are talking pollination then nucleus colonies are quite capable of doing that
So its not for that reason packages are being imported nor is it that farmers will go bankrupt if we don't import them this country is awash with bees and beekeepers

It's purely a matter of the people doing the importing because they want to do it, but its unpopular so they and have invented every reason under the sun to justify it

Personally I object not so much to what goes on, as to people trying to pull the wool over my eyes about why they do it
They should just come clean and say they are doing it because they want to, they cant get their bees through the Winter, and they don't give a flying fox what anybody else thinks
Fair enough then we will all know where we stand 


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## mbc

> I'm not trying to make a point about pollination contracts mbc just that is being touted as a reason for colony imports
> Here's what I don't get
> You mention after disastrous season for losses when does that happen ?
> If I lost 10% that would be a very bad result in my world
> When colonies were being made up with imported carnie queens at the start of the season they were apparently marvellous productive colonies by the time they were moved to the rape
> So when did it become essential to bring in packages of bees 
> 
> If we are talking pollination then nucleus colonies are quite capable of doing that
> So its not for that reason packages are being imported nor is it that farmers will go bankrupt if we don't import them this country is awash with bees and beekeepers
> ...


Lol.
I agree with much you say.
The point about the need for packages being made though, forgive me for reading between the lines and interpreting my own way, is that they conveniently step into the breach to keep individual businesses going where they might otherwise have failed. 
I remember seeing a piece on tv about pollination quite recently where packages were being installed in an apple orchard because the beekeeper had lost a lot and" otherwise the pollination wouldn't happen".  Quite obviously the argument being made didn't mention that no appeal will have been made  to local beekeeping associations, buying in local bees would have been comparitively extortionate, and for a beekeeper with high winter losses the most expedient way to bring the empty equipment back into production is to sling in some cheap foreign bees and a bucket of feed, this sort of honesty doesn't make good press, but it's probably what happened to keep the pollination  contract fulfilled and that individual beefarmer in business for another season.   
I make the personal choice to walk a hard road where losses are absorbed and mitigated through my own bees, this requires sacrifice, and it doesn't mean the easy path doesn't look attractive or make sense, it's just a different philosophy.  I don't think imports will be banned, so shrug, c'est la vie, and vive la difference !
Edit: also, good pollination units are strong overwintered colonies with a balanced population. Nuc's and packages don't really cut the mustard.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Lol.
> 
> Edit: also, good pollination units are strong overwintered colonies with a balanced population. Nuc's and packages don't really cut the mustard.


I unreservedly take your word for that mbc
Excepting if there was any mustard around thats exactly where those bees would be   :Smile:

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## SDM

> That might be true for US Almond deserts etc but theres no reason why apple orchards can't support plenty pollinating insects
> Apples are not that attractive a prospect for honey bees 
> There is a general assumption that any time anything gets pollinated it must have been by honey bees 
> That is simply not true there are loads of other pollinating insects
> Bee colonies being moved in are just a sticking plaster and a not very good one
> The argument that if we don't import thousands of package bees every year nothing will get pollinated is just not credible


Do you really expect an abundance of wild pollinators around a fixed crop that gets sprayed with pesticides multiple times a year ? Then assuming your wild pollinators survive the spraying, what would you have them forage once the crop has flowered ? Their shorter foraging range makes this a a major issue.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi SDM
Check post 38 to save me just repeating posting

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## SDM

I'm fully aware of what is needed to promote wild pollinators. But you can't seriously be recommending any of them for intensively farmed areas.
Broader range of available forage would reduce focus on target crops and reduce yield.
Reduction of pesticides would again reduce yield.
Smaller areas devoted to mono crops would again reduce yield and massively increase production costs.
How many people would you starve globaly through reduced production and hugely increased prices simply to avoid importing honey bees ?
What you seem to bee suggesting is akin to banning a lifesaving drug because it may give people a headache.

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## The Drone Ranger

What crops in particular do you have in mind ?
The discussion here begins with the danger of small hive beetle and bee imports from Italy
I don't know of any UK grown crop, which without imported colonies, could result in global starvation ?
Apples, raspberries, ?

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## Calluna4u

Been out of circulation for a bit due to the death and funeral of my father, and have come back to check in on what has been going on for a couple of hours, to see some interesting ways my input has been interpreted. Please pardon me jumping about all over the place in this post, it addresses issues from several posters.

Firstly, you are all going to have to vote UKIP and/or to leave the EU if you think the UK govt is going to rip up the Balaii directive to protect honeybees. In particular to protect the amateur sector where *almost* all the anti import noise comes from. 

We are TINY, and in a big and very valuable agricultural commodity market. Pretty well a nothing, so not worth the hassle of any kind of trade war with our EU partners over.

There is also no concensus in favour of an import ban. When you hold the vote at an open meeting folk feel they have to put their hands up for it so as not to attract the attention of the more vociferous members against imports, and then quietly order their bees behind the scenes. The anti lobby are also very divided as to what their motives are. Once you get up to BFA level there is probably a majority against a ban, and geographically it gets to be more of an issue the further away from SE England you are, where it is largely a non issue (with loud exceptions).

This makes for interesting conflicts between utopia and reality. Most traded nucs come from the parts of the UK where imports are not considered to be a major issue, and indeed are often derived or even sometime made up, from the very imported packages you seek to deny access to. Then the local beek has done the right thing by UK sourcing, all are happy, yet there is no material difference in the stock you get. Only difference is that the trail is lost to the inspectors in many cases and the beek has paid nearly three times as much as they should have for the same bees. (I told you all there was a large 'common good' component in what I do.) You can get the whole package from me with northern adapted bees and queens for 88 quid, but feel it better to buy the same bees divided into two nucs, built up to cover 5 bars, then pay 150 quid... or significantly more (have seen 280 each)....... each for the two halves but have a clear conscience that you sourced in the UK? You also then get bees with no health certificate except a vendor provided one.

Packages are in fact very effective short term pollinator units. As with a new swarm (which is what they are really) they forage voraciously in the first week or more to establish a reserve of pollen and to feed the first wave of brood. They do dip quite sharply then before taking off very fast once the first brood hatches. They are not behaving like normal overwintered colonies at the point of introduction, so you cannot judge them directly against that.

The bees do NOT leave the apples for OSR. As always they will go for a balanced diet, and even in a solid OSR block you will get bees bringing in a smattering of other pollens, esp dandelion which is very noticeable especially early in the OSR season. at the place in question you get a nice crop of delicious apple honey about one year in 3. There is OSR around and some sites go for it and some don't. The cider apples seem to be best for the bees. If you only have a few trees I am not surprised the bees largely ignore them as far as you can see and go to OSR, A single tree is only enough for about one Apidea. Even six trees will not suffice for a single decent colony. So yes, of course they are going to go far and wide. At Hereford, even with OSR nearby, the dominant pollen by a country 

The tv piece quoted by mbc was of course my unit near Hereford, although I was not see apart from the delivery to Hilton Park services, where it was my own truck and staff that collected them. They had been let down badly by UK beeks for a considerable period and had suffered very considerable loss of harvest due to inadequate pollination. The last season before we went in there they had ordered and been promised 250 colonies for the cherries and apples. The beeks involved had delivered 56. This had gone on for some seasons and with a variety of UK based operators, and even an invite to local amateurs to ask for sites only yielded about 20 hives, not all full, and a whole raft of hassle about eachother objecting to the presence of others and especially the professional operators, as 'it is well known that they (which appeared to mean every other beek) are spreading disease'. They also got their heads severely nipped every time the sprayer was out without even waiting to see what was going on the crops.

Also, the package bees were for a single block of trees where not other bees were available, and it was only 30. The flowering was about to get going and was gone in two weeks from then. The grower was VERY happy with the results. But of course, on this thread we can see he was wrong.....as are all the other growers who seek bees and the agronomist who recommend them and all the other apple growers around the world who want them too......will add up to billions of wasted pounds each year.

The farm in question has very sound environmental policies (which I was given input into) and there is reasonable levels of forage apart from the actual orchards, and they plant over 50 acres of borage on unused plots within the farm, just for the bees and native pollinators. We have not seen any significant bee kill there. There is a good level of native pollinators around....but it really only builds up at a time after the flowering of the apples has gone, which is of such short duration per variety that the natives do not have time to respond.

I have also never said that you can buy in a queen from abroad, put it in a nuc or split, then have a full strength colony for the OSR. This is just impossible. You are actually not getting the queens until the OSR is in flower. What I have said is that you can often get a super of honey off them before heather time and that it is often late flowering OSR. The timings do not allow for the colony to be anywhere near mature during OSR time, and indeed the first bees from the new queen are not likely to be foragers until close to or even after the OSR is finished.  This was not always the case but OSR varieties have been selected for some years for earlier flowering and shorter flowering period, and these days in southern parts it is often coming out at the end of March or mid April would be a later field and it is gone in three to four weeks unless the weather is bad. The crop is now often over three weeks earlier than it was 30 years ago and is too early for many colonies, even overwintered ones, to get a crop. Thus we now regard OSR as mostly a build up crop rather than an major honey source. Nice when you get it but the build up is what we seek more than anything else.

Who mentioned global starvation?? Is that not a bit hyperbolic?  However, if you apple farm is losing 50K a season on average due to pollination deficiency (our guys say more than that), and there are several hundred apple farms, never mind ANY other crop, then you have a large sum that is lost to the economy. If you add in that OSR is supposedly a better yield by 8 to 15% with a good coverage of honey bees on it you start to get up to very large figures indeed. No-one with any grip on reality claims that without honeybees we would all starve, or that directly importing bees for pollination adds anything other than a minority amount to the pollinator pot. However even that amount adds a lot to the rural economy. (also forget that in the key growing areas MANY of the so called local bees are actually import derived). Is the suggestion that, to minimise the risk of SHB, we should just accept deficient pollination, therefore lower yields in terms of tonnage and quality, and invest heavily on building up other pollinators over several years? If honeybees are no use then it seems so. The noise from the orchards when the flowers are out and there are bees all over the trees suggests to me that the idea that we can do without the bees is inaccurate at best. 

Snip here....post too long....continued on next one

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## Calluna4u

drat...lost the rest.....no time right now to redo it......will revisit this again later. Told the limit for a post is 10000 characters...mines was 10750. One or two typos in the above.....where I put billions I did mean millions...but it might even be billions.

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## The Drone Ranger

> drat...lost the rest.....no time right now to redo it......will revisit this again later. Told the limit for a post is 10000 characters...mines was 10750. One or two typos in the above.....where I put billions I did mean millions...but it might even be billions.


Nice to see you back C4u
Sorry to hear the reason you were away was a sad one
I was beginning to think I had upset you

The apple growers themselves recommend not introducing honey bees to orchards until 20% of the crop is in flower otherwise the bees will fixate on something else and continue with it while ignoring the trees 
What I have said is that losing so many colonies that you have to import replacements comes as a complete surprise to me
I  thought the purpose of bee keeping was to keep them not lose them every winter
I am genuinely amazed that that could be considered "normal"
I appreciate that beekeepers in general have no say in where imported bees come from, its decided by the BFA and companies who have the ear of the Government (at the moment)
I just object to the arguments put up that its all for our own benefit or we will starve
Good to see you putting that to bed

I appreciate you are the only person prepared to admit that its a commercial decision based on what's good for your business
Can't blame you for that, but when Small hive beetle gets here I might (unfairly) be blaming you for that

I'm beginning to realise that I have been a bit blind to what really goes on and I'm not sure beekeeping benefits from real scrutiny 
How would it all play out in the press compared to "help us to save the honey bee" etc

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## Calluna4u

> Nice to see you back C4u
> Sorry to hear the reason you were away was a sad one
> I was beginning to think I had upset you
> 
> The apple growers themselves recommend not introducing honey bees to orchards until 20% of the crop is in flower otherwise the bees will fixate on something else and continue with it while ignoring the trees 
> What I have said is that losing so many colonies that you have to import replacements comes as a complete surprise to me
> I  thought the purpose of bee keeping was to keep them not lose them every winter
> I am genuinely amazed that that could be considered "normal"
> I appreciate that beekeepers in general have no say in where imported bees come from, its decided by the BFA and companies who have the ear of the Government (at the moment)
> ...


I have a thick hide and am hard to offend lol.

SHB....in the opinion of MOST places that have had it......is almost a non issue. The horror stories all come from a small number of southern US states, as do the scary photos much reproduced in the alarming documentation supporting strong action. I do not fear it at all, and having spoken to people who actually have it their response is generally to ask what all the fuss is about.

That you have very few losses ever does not actually reflect on the true picture of beekeeping across the country. In one recent winter the overall loss rate was close on 60%. That you had 10% is both laudable and probably fortunate. I saw very good beekeepers almost wiped out. Angus was a badly hit county, and the highest I know of, outwith the very small amateurs where some had no bees left at all, was 98% losses in one outfit. That same winter we only lost 15% in our poly operation but variable between 40 and 60% in the wooden hives. They were well fed, looked OK in autumn, but collapsed in the late winter. The worrying thing was, like in 2015, all had seemed ok, they were well fed and dry and in proven winter locations, but they had had to work in September to get a harvest and they were worn out.

However the heavy losses were not just a Scottish phenomenon. It was true in parts of Wales, many places in England too, including SE England. It was the same in France and Germany too. Demand for packages was so high that in the end we could only get about a third of what people wanted. It was not down to beekeeper proficiency in most cases (there were exceptions) just the bees were done in before winter even came along.

I NEVER have losses that, when looked at by mid April, are 10% or less. I will always have a percentage of that order with queen defects....either drone layers or queenless or superceders at an impossible time of year. To me these are losses. Two seams of bees or less? Its a dink and to be boosted or replaced. Maybe I have a harsh interpretation of what losses are, but from all causes (includes autumn re-unites too btw...still one down) I expect to see between 15 and 20% most seasons, often a bit more. What constitutes a winter loss is a movable feast. One mans 5% could easily be another mans 20%, so to make any sensible comparison you have to know what is being counted. Colonies killed by winter itself are a rarity. From the way I read it on here I could quite easily claim to have winter losses of 5% or maybe even less, but its self deception. The true losses, from all causes, and an empty hive is an empty hive and a non earner whatever the cause, will be more like 20%. Now say you want then filled up in one season then you have to do a lot of splits and for every one you need to fill you need to make about 1.25 splits (allows for failures). This means that by heather time your unit consists of 55% full colonies and 45% that are either split colonies or actual splits. If you look at it that way you can see where the economics for the beekeeper comes in. If the duds are filled with fresh stock the crop should normally be better.

The advice about not putting bees in till 20% flower is understandable but not actually much used in practice. Our unit down there is resident and still does the job. They only go away from the fruit farm to the heather and thus also out of the way of the picking staff, as they are in a dearth at that time unless there are copious levels of balsam about, and in consequence can be a little cranky when disturbed by machinery.

Where bees are *permitted* to come from is not in any way the decision of the BFA or any company importing them. This policy is decided at EU level. You can import from any member state (there are local exceptions in some states for clearly defined special objectives) and only have to give notice you are doing so and provide a proper health certificate. You can also import from third countries that meet EU and UK legislation regarding notifiable diseases, and the presence of them at source. At this time only Argentina and Western Australia fit into that category and for queens only. There is also New Zealand which, by dint of its health status and high level of supervision of the sector, has been granted 'EU equivalent' status. It is treated as per other third countries as regards certification and post import checks, but you can bring packages in from NZ only, which is not permitted from any other non EU country. Where they are actually sourced from is a matter for each importer, within the framework of the existing rules and the special restriction currently in place for Sicily and Calabria. The BFA has no role whatsoever in this, other than to report that there is no consensus among our members favouring any bans. Individuals yes, but also those equally vociferously opposed.

You can buy UK bees from anyone here. Once they have come into the UK and fulfilled import requirements a trader can sell them anywhere in the UK without further certification, indeed none required at all. Its the least regulated and safe source in Europe because there has normally been no official presale inspection whatsoever. In the EFB area there is a voluntary code in place about sales of nucs outwith the area (should have more teeth IMO) but the issue is that EFB is present in the rest of the UK at a higher rate than we now have in the infected area, yet the code does not permit us to sell into those areas, yet anywhere in the clear part of Scotland can buy from all of the UK except our area.........not quite logical. I agree about not moving potentially EFB colonies to...for example....Skye, but we should be able to move our bees as nucs or whatever to places where EFB already exists. Not an SHB issue per se, but its the same principle.........clear areas should not be at risk from actual infected areas.

Can you tell its a dreadfully dreich afternoon? Frame wiring and waxing holds little charm today.

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## The Drone Ranger

Take your point about what counts as a lost colony C4u
I am taking some mini nucs through winter so expect a lot of them (maybe all) will croak
Also quite few (for me ) Paynes poly nucs  
Because I haven't tried much of that before it might not work
On the Hive front Smiths I don't expect to lose many of them but it's a weird Winter so i wont temp fate
There will be some queens in the mini nucs hopefully for any hive where the queen becomes a drone layer or some such issue
I could probably double the number of hives I have every year but don't have the forage, the energy or the equipment to cope with that kind of thing

You are right the weather is foul, and I haven't done oxalic yet so am still on the right side of the law  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

This has been a strange thread 
Normally very vocal defenders of "local bees" and "British Black bees" etc have all gone very quiet
Bring back Eric Mcarthur ?
Meanwhile lets pretend its not happening, say nothing, and smile
Until small hive beetle gets here 

Happy new year

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## mbc

> This has been a strange thread 
> Normally very vocal defenders of "local bees" and "British Black bees" etc have all gone very quiet
> Bring back Eric Mcarthur ?
> Meanwhile lets pretend its not happening, say nothing, and smile
> Until small hive beetle gets here 
> 
> Happy new year



Yes strange thread, capitulation maybe? The "ban imports" argument will seldom have more validity, and yet on they go.
Sorry for your loss ITLD.
I'd forgotten (or never realised) that you were the pollinating beekeeper involved in that program, though I'm aware you do bring in packages. Are there any stats around as to the comparative success or failure of packages as opposed to nucs in the UK?

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## fatshark

> Where bees are *permitted* to come from is not in any way the decision of the BFA or any company importing them. This policy is decided at EU level. You can import from any member state (there are local exceptions in some states for clearly defined special objectives) and only have to give notice you are doing so and provide a proper health certificate.


On the BKF there is a thread in which Goran (a contributor from Croatia) states he's not allowed to keep anything other than Carnis. Ditto in neighbouring Slovenia. I presume this is imposed under one of the _clearly defined special objectives_ you talk about Calluna4u? If so, I wonder who made the decision? Presumably a national BKA and/or their bee farmers, and that membership of one or both are mandatory? I can't see us getting any such agreement here in the UK ... after all, there's disagreement about holes in crownboards and matches  :EEK!: 

For the record - and in response to mbc - I'd prefer we didn't have imports. I don't think competent and professional commercial operations are going to import SHB ... I think it's much more likely to arrive (and be missed) by an less competent amateur perhaps sourced from an under the counter import. However, I *do* think that cheap and readily available imports effectively reduces the necessity for proper training or bee husbandry. What proportion of BKA members know how and when to treat (and why and what with) for _Varroa_, prepare their colonies properly for winter or are self-sufficient for queens (because they rear their own)? I believe the latter figure is 10%, but am happy to be corrected on this. There's little need to properly learn these skills because lost colonies can be replaced for £100.

Michael Palmer has very successfully lectured on sustainable beekeeping ... we should try and practice it a bit more here (not necessarily his specific methods, simply the sustainable bit). Cheap, readily available imports negate the need to acquire proper beekeeping skills.

Sorry for your loss Calluna4u, welcome back and best wishes for the New Year.

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## Emma

Well, I'm too full of the cold to argue the case on imports, DR (much tho' I personally favour biosecurity & local adaptedness),
so I'll just celebrate the thought that my bees are maybe earning their keep, rather than getting a free ride in a nice spot in an orchard  :Smile:  (Thanks for that thought, Calluna4u, welcome back, and condolences.)

IMG_20150425_153304.jpg

The hives are resident in a walled garden orchard all year round. I see steady foraging on apple blossom in season, & we do get good apple crops - but then the place is heaven for freelance pollinators, as well, and we have plenty, including mason bees. 
The photo was on one of the cordon apple trees in the walled garden next door. Hoping to see plenty of the same in 2016 - wishing a good season to all.

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## fatshark

> The hives are resident in a walled garden orchard all year round.


I'd have a chat with the farmer over the wall ... he's got 15 acres of OSR well within range  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
Just to cover some bits of your post

_There is also no concensus in favour of an import ban. When you hold the vote at an open meeting folk feel they have to put their hands up for it so as not to attract the attention of the more vociferous members against imports, and then quietly order their bees behind the scenes. 
This makes for interesting conflicts between utopia and reality. 
_

I have never found myself persuaded until now that import controls are needed
It's clear from reading the thread though that you are not concerned by small hive beetle
Also that you are not concerned by other beekeepers opinions 
Therefor the only way they can influence you is by campaigning for control to be imposed

[I]Most traded nucs come from the parts of the UK where imports are not considered to be a major issue, and indeed are often derived or even sometime made up, from the very imported packages you seek to deny access to. Then the local beek has done the right thing by UK sourcing, all are happy, yet there is no material difference in the stock you get. Only difference is that the trail is lost to the inspectors in many cases and the beek has paid nearly three times as much as they should have for the same bees. (I told you all there was a large 'common good' component in what I do.) You can get the whole package from me with northern adapted bees and queens for 88 quid, but feel it better to buy the same bees divided into two nucs, built up to cover 5 bars, then pay 150 quid... or significantly more (have seen 280 each)....... each for the two halves but have a clear conscience that you sourced in the UK? You also then get bees with no health certificate except a vendor provided one.

[/I]

I wouldn't regard £88 for a package of Italian bees as a good buy myself
An overwintered nuc in a Paynes Poly hive for £150 looks good by comparison
£32 for Nuc £20 for the frames and wax and then you £88 for bees makes £140 
So £10 extra for a colony with its own overwintered queen drawn combs etc looks good to me


_I have also never said that you can buy in a queen from abroad, put it in a nuc or split, then have a full strength colony for the OSR. This is just impossible.  The crop is now often over three weeks earlier than it was 30 years ago and is too early for many colonies, even overwintered ones, to get a crop. Thus we now regard OSR as mostly a build up crop rather than an major honey source. Nice when you get it but the build up is what we seek more than anything else._


Thats true here's what you did say in 2013 about queens imported from New Zealand 
Good sales pitch convinced the inteviewer but not yourself it seems  :Smile: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4k...ew?usp=sharing

_Who mentioned global starvation?? Is that not a bit hyperbolic?_

Yes it is a bit
That was SDM I think he may have started drinking early for New Year

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## Calluna4u

> I wouldn't regard £88 for a package of Italian bees as a good buy myself
> An overwintered nuc in a Paynes Poly hive for £150 looks good by comparison
> £32 for Nuc £20 for the frames and wax and then you £88 for bees makes £140 
> So £10 extra for a colony with its own overwintered queen drawn combs etc looks good to me


Interesting costings.....
1. If they are in a Paynes nuc its usually returnable against a deposit on top of the cost....but even at that I only take 20 quid.
2. Frames cost me 80p assembled and prewired and a sheet of wax about 20p......add some labour and the cost of the frames and wax for all 6 frames is still only well south of 9 quid.
3. You are only getting HALF a package for that money. May have had an extra queen added. or may have had the one with the package. 
4. Will have been fed (2.50) and (hopefully, depending on how 'natural' you want them to be) treated for varroa, so you can save the 15p for an OA treatment or the 1.60 for Biowar.

88 pounds buys a 1.5Kg package (7 to 8 frames in a BS deep), with one new seasons queen. 17 quid extra for a second queen (imported Buckfast) or 30 for one of our home bred ones (struggle to give any May deliveries on prearranged dates for homebred).

So take off our costs from the 150 quid (we are 140 for overwintered with home bred queen btw, minimum order 10, and to associations preferably, as we just don't have time for endless talking to clients for one at a time) you arrive at in the region of 135 pounds. Doing as the other folks do you pend 105 pounds, (1pkg plus spare q) and set up much the same thing for 52.50 plus a fiver for feeding...so 57.50. The difference is a lot more than 10 quid.

At 150 quid for local overwintered I can see how you can rate these higher.......but I do both, and it aint as rosy as you would think. The overwintered ones require a lot more hands on care over the season, as they are last years queens and are considerably more ready to swarm. Against that one of my clients bought nucs from me last spring, overwintered with Jolantas queens in them and ended up at the end of the season with 2.5 times the number he bought. If you are not after honey and just want the bees than the overwintered nuc, split as it comes to strength, can be the way to go.

However, many of these traded nucs are not exactly what the purchaser thinks.........you are often buying recently imported package bees, although later on you can be getting Yorkshire bees shaken at the end of the OSR, with a queen (unrelated) added, to establish the packages. The next good question is where the Yorkshire bees originated from............one of the main recipient counties for imported queens. ( Many bees are shaken from colonies established from packages, or more likely with queens, I supplied in the season before, from Italy, to make up these home produced nucs.......this is not just twaddle, I KNOW this.)

The viability for the beekeeper is another matter too. I know you personally have very very low loss rates compared to many, but the basic rule of thumb is that for every 3 nucs set up you expect two to make it....albeit a number of those will be very small and require a lot of boosting. The lost ones have a cost attached to them in time and feeding that is generally totally ignored in amateur circles. However if you ever seriously want there to be a domestic production on nucs etc to meet demand it has to be done by the professionals who can supply numbers that a highly fragmented and polarised amateur sector can never hope to do. Inquiries (only about 20% thus far are solid orders) for packages thus far for spring 2016 runs at about 10,000...and the peak of inquiries is usually March. There are other traders too.

I would expect, from past performance, that the demand is going to be very high this spring (paralysis virus is bad in some parts of northern England the last two seasons and some have been almost wiped out), and across all traders I would not be surprised if requirements (which will be a lot more than can actually be met due to limited availability at source) will be in the vicinity of 25000. Demand from northern Europe and the UK for spring 2016 packages and queens is described by the northern Italian producers as exceptionally high and most have now already totally sold out for the season and taking no more bookings. Would now be surprised if any more than say 4500 *Italian* packages make it over in the end due to lack of supply.

Seriously suggesting that a ban on imports and an education programme followed or simultaneous with and expansion of nuc production in the amateur sector is going to meet that demand.....AND for it to be at a viable rate? 

The divergent agendas of the anti import side of things raises its head at this point between those that would have the UK go back to and Amm reserve... and those who just want the border closed .... come to a head a bit at this point. There is no way I want to live and work (indeed could not) in what would effectively be a bee museum.
Most clients are more interested in the price rather than the origin. Offer imported queens at 17 pounds and home bred at 28.50 (2015 rates) the imported outsold the home bred by 10 to 1.

The interviewer in the clip was Phil Chandler, who was at the time one of the most vehement anti import advocates and natural beekeeping guru, and it is older than 2013. That he came, saw, listened, and drew his own conclusions was very refreshing. Nowhere in it do I state that we can put queens in a split and have it ready as a full colony on OSR. The bees themselves are lovely and nowhere in that clip do I say anything I do not stand by. However, with the changes in exchange rate NZ stock has become very expensive, and there are major issues with the shipping. By mail is not allowed, only airfreight, and this means the basic minimum viable order ended up being about 300. The 2014 import from New Zealand was very unsatisfactory, seems it was chilled badly in flight. After the much earlier issues mentioned in the interview all shipment carried a temperature logger and it could be seen that instead of the steady 15C they were meant to be carried at they had had two major dips to 1C and in between there was a spike to 55C...all in the course of two hours...not good. Again as touched on, some of the good NZ stock is now incorporated in our own programme here and they are still very similar in performance. One issue, which I think I mentioned to you before, was the discovery that the commercial breeder we were using was working with a very small number of bought in breeder queens, and that it meant too many of the colonies were too closely related, and first crosses (only between the NZ bees and nothing else) sometimes showed a very poor brood pattern and lack of performance. We have taken care of that problem in house, but will not return to NZ as a source of commercial queens (maybe buy the odd breeder queen) until the shipping and breeding issues are sorted out.

You suggest I don't care about the opinions of others. Well I am here engaging with you am I not? I am past chairman of the BFA and am well used to representing the opinions of a board or membership even if it runs contrary to my own opinion. Coming to places like this, and the Beekeeping forum too where my handle speaks for itself, is to come to a place where you KNOW you are going to take heat on this issue and I feel it is important to engage with it to correct and rebut misinformation, given for a host of reasons the poster may have (especially if it is just that they have been misinformed). If I did not care I would just keep my head down and get on with it. I would also, given my lack of concern about SHB in particular, be a lot less careful about the processes and precautions attached to the way I do the packages work. On forums you tend to encounter those with the strongest opinions on the issue, and out there in general beekeeping world the opinions are far less polarised, and there really does seem to be no concensus about banning imports, but reading any of the forum sections on the subject you would get the idea it was near universal opposition. This is just not true. This is a plce where largely like minded people meet. To extrapolate that out to being the opinion of the majority is not possible......and you would be surprised at how many forum members have provisionally booked packages for spring, albeit in relatively small amounts.

We are on a twin track for our own unit. In most years I expect Jolanta to produce all we need and a healthy surplus of nucs and queens, all bred in Perthshire and well outcrossed for vigour, but I am not living in a dream world on that. Some years there will be a severe deficit. Imports will be needed. They can be done in a safe manner. Cut off that and you will go back to shipments coming in from Europe in the back of fridge vans and queen consignments unlogged in the post or the boots of cars. Or would you prefer the shortages that can arise and take a long time to rectify. How do people make a living if they have a curtailed harvest of what today is a marginal product? ( Go back 40 years and index link bulk Scottish honey prices forward.......Blossom should be 3.60/lb and Heather 5.80/lb, instead of the 2.30 and 3.30 it actually is today....so its increasingly hard to make a living at it even if we WERE in average seasons which we are not....5 of the last 6 have been below long term average... adjusting for variables like poly hives). 

I don't understand what you say about import controls. There ARE import controls and so there should be! This is no unregulated free for all and we at least comply with all requirements and liase with the NBU and Scottish Govt team at all times, and carry the official health certificates and transport documents with us. There is probably a lot of misunderstanding about just how thorough the process is.

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## Calluna4u

> On the BKF there is a thread in which Goran (a contributor from Croatia) states he's not allowed to keep anything other than Carnis. Ditto in neighbouring Slovenia. I presume this is imposed under one of the _clearly defined special objectives_ you talk about Calluna4u? If so, I wonder who made the decision? Presumably a national BKA and/or their bee farmers, and that membership of one or both are mandatory? I can't see us getting any such agreement here in the UK ... after all, there's disagreement about holes in crownboards and matches


Not quite sure how it operates, but of course we already have one such area in Scotland, the Colonsay project which you have recently been associated with.

However....I do know that you MUST prove that you are in an area of exceptional genetic importance and purity to get this through, and that there must be no bees not compliant with the decided upon type in the area, and any that are not must be or should be eradicated or removed. That something bad would happen to this pure bred stock from incoming racially different types must also be demonstrated. That's there is a concensus in favour of such a move. That it is feasible.

In the UK, apart from tiny pockets I would suggest it will not/could not happen. Many UK beeks would not have bees at all if it were not for imported stock and UK bred bees ultimately derived from imported stock. Even a fair amount of the Amm. It would require an utterly massive eradication programme of most of the UK bee stock.

I do correspond with Goran from time to time, but it seems Croatia is more riven with factionalisation and discord than here in the UK and I don't know how strict their carnica only policy is or if it is just a voluntary thing. I hear of cases of non carnic bees going into areas where others would rather they didn't, but its always unclear how much is to do with the breeding or just plain beekeeper territorialism. Slovenia is treated as a special case, being regarded (at last internally) as the home of the carnica bee, and has some degree of protected status.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
I'm conscious of the fact that you are the only importer of bees from Italy who is prepared to defend that position in the forums
Am I right in saying that you import the majority of colonies brought in from Italy ?

I don't much care for spin so I try and avoid it 

I wouldn't buy bees from someone who had a policy of returning empty Nucs or other equipment after the bees were decanted
That's a bio security issue 
(They don't know where those nucs were sitting before the bees were moved into a hive and the box returned)

I stand by what I said before, that if I bought a nuc (and I don't need or want to) then I would rather pay £150 or even the £180 delivered including 4 or 5 frames of bees +stores all on drawn frames with their own overwintered queen rather than 1.5Kg of bees imported from Italy in a transport box
(Cue Gavin "I can do that")

You point out that some crooks are just re-homing your package bees and selling them on as UK bees
Of course that can only go on if the packages come in to UK in the first place

You have mentioned Afb and Efb a few times, and again that can affect anyone who is unlucky, but the risk is greatly increased with migratory beekeeping for obvious reasons.

Small hive beetle is another matter since it is known to be in Italy already ,and although you have said you are not worried by SHB, if gets here, I think you should be

As a large bee keeping operation you can choose to be a force for good, or not, that's your choice

If you can't get a good honey price and it's not due to poor marketing then I sympathise
http://www.colonsay.org.uk/LocalProd...ters-and-Honey

Sometimes a step back and a new direction might provide solutions, rather than sticking with the old plan and relying on cost cutting to stay afloat. 

Some of the bee management techniques you have recommended such as getting bees drawing wax at the end  of Sept or even October and bulk feeding invert syrup in November, or taking the lids off all the hives at once, and trickle treating them with oxalic acid in 2.5 mins /per hive might be a reason why you have to keep replacing lost colonies
Can't say for sure but I wouldn't do those things without a degree of anxiety

Anyway it's not for me to give you advice on how to run your business I can only say how it looks from the outside

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## prakel

> If you can't get a good honey price and it's not due to poor marketing then I sympathise
> http://www.colonsay.org.uk/LocalProd...ters-and-Honey
> 
> Sometimes a step back and a new direction might provide solutions, rather than sticking with the old plan and relying on cost cutting to stay afloat.


But how much of those prices is made up by postage and packing? Also there's an issue of quantity isn't there. IF I remember correctly, the Colonsay site used to mention that their average production was slightly less than 30lb per colony (based on +/- 60 colonies) although I admit that I may be wrong on that as I can no longer see any mention of averages.

*edit:*




> Colonsay and Oronsay sustain around 50 colonies of bees. Yields vary with summers but are below the U.K. average of 30lb per colony. There are few beekeepers on the West coast of Scotland, the climate being too wet for commercial beekeeping. Colonsay lies to the west of the rain shadow and it's high sunshine hours make beekeeping viable, if marginal.

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## mbc

> ...........will be in the vicinity of 25000 ....


So, official figures suggest there are about 275000 colonies in the uk and there will be nearly 10% of this in demand just for packages, let alone queens and nucs from abroad, just in one year, staggering if true.
I think this is where people find it hard to agree with, where do all these bees go? Obviously, individually they perish, but on the colony level?!! It just smacks of exploitation and using bees as a fungible commodity. Most of us as beekeepers like to think we get to know our colonies and that we care for them and nurture them over a period of years, this barely seems possible if the boxes are full of creatures we have little connection to other than payment, delivery, installation, harvest and replace.
Of the hundreds of bka's in the uk, most will presumably raise nucs to supply beginners, I'd have thought that a good proportion of the 45000 individual beekeepers will easily make increase or hold steady over a number of years, and there are many enthusiastic beekeepers producing many thousands of home reared queens and nucs for sale, the classic progression for beginning beekeepers is to spend spend spend on more equipment for the first few seasons as they get to grips with swarm control and they desperately need extra bee housing, so I  follow the Drone Ranger's consternation that the numbers don't seem to add up.

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## gavin

On the topic of numbers not adding up ...




> That you [Drone Ranger] have very few losses ever does not actually reflect on the true  picture of beekeeping across the country. In one recent winter the  overall loss rate was close on 60%. That you had 10% is both laudable  and probably fortunate. I saw very good beekeepers almost wiped out.  Angus was a badly hit county, and the highest I know of, outwith the  very small amateurs where some had no bees left at all, was 98% losses  in one outfit. That same winter we only lost 15% in our poly operation  but variable between 40 and 60% in the wooden hives. They were well fed,  looked OK in autumn, but collapsed in the late winter. The worrying  thing was, like in 2015, all had seemed ok, they were well fed and dry  and in proven winter locations, but they had had to work in September to  get a harvest and they were worn out.


I seriously question your claim of an overall 60% loss  rate and also wonder whether the beekeepers which were nearly wiped out  were really the 'very good beekeepers' you think.  Contrast the 60% with  20% of full hives lost in the survey of the members of our local  association, not all of whom are excellent and experienced beekeepers.   We separated out losses of nuclei which were at 50% but the full  colonies did not fare too badly.  This also applied to our members in  the east of our area, exactly the same territory where the 98% loss you  mention occurred.  Yes, the numbers in the survey were not high, but  came from as many of our members as we could persuade to fill in the  survey.  There was no incentive to over or under report losses.  These  people have the full range of level of experience and competence  including at the poor to middling end.  As one of the people helping  raise standards in our association I'd like to acknowledge the help you  have given me over the years and feel that some of the success of our  members comes from that.  You will also see in the report that some  members said that they united some colonies to get them through the  winter, so the number of colonies in the spring will have been lower  than otherwise to an extent.

So your 60% doesn't make sense to  me.  Nor does it make sense to encourage more imports by people who lose  all but 2% of their stock.  There have to be reasons for that loss  being so high, almost certainly beekeeping reasons.  There was one bee  farmer who lost 80% of his stock in 2009-10 - again, prompting  successful calls for funding to save businesses, but ask folk closely  and they'll tell you exactly why this outfit had such high losses.   Again beekeeping reasons.  The solution is not to import and continue as  before, the answer is to improve the beekeeping.

There is no  doubt that there have been times when winter losses were high and  businesses were in trouble, but building in resilience is a much better  way forward than buying in more stock to do it all again.  This also  applies to amateurs.  Such a lot of the huge flow of imports you  describe goes to rank amateurs getting into a hobby to 'save the bees'  but who in fact often lose their stock and contribute to increasing the  risks of new pathogens and poorly adapted bee stock arriving in the UK.   The fact that many are unaware of the recently imported status of the  stocks they purchased is a serious indictment of the way the trade  operates.

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## gavin

> The divergent agendas of the anti import side of things raises its head at this point between those that would have the UK go back to and Amm reserve... and those who just want the border closed .... come to a head a bit at this point. There is no way I want to live and work (indeed could not) in what would effectively be a bee museum.


[Taking his cue from some discussion on here some time ago about a commercial beekeeper charging for the adoption of bees and visits ...... ]
_
... and charge the people, a dollar and a half just to see them!_

A bit of hyperbole there - see comments above about businesses in Ireland that work on improving the bee they already have rather than bringing in allsorts.

Divergent agendas because there are many reasons why wholesale importation is bad for beekeeping and the disapproval of it as a routine practice is widespread.  Agendas though?  Do those with different opinions from you have agendas and you just have views?  Personally, I think that you are exaggerating for effect.  I've yet to meet anyone who realistically wants the UK to go back to an Amm reserve - I think fatshark was throwing in the quote from the BKF because it contrasts greatly with your view of the beekeeping world.

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## Calluna4u

> Hi C4u
> I'm conscious of the fact that you are the only importer of bees from Italy who is prepared to defend that position in the forums
> Am I right in saying that you import the majority of colonies brought in from Italy ?
> 
> *I think about 60% of the OFFICIALLY RECORDED ones. Photos exist on the net of consignments of packages and nucs on combs bound for the UK, on trucks with UK registrations, that were never recorded. Not aware of recent pics, but within the last 10 years.*
> 
> I don't much care for spin so I try and avoid it 
> 
> I wouldn't buy bees from someone who had a policy of returning empty Nucs or other equipment after the bees were decanted
> ...


....

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## prakel

> ....new foundation in Sept etc? All I can say is give it a try on ONE hive, then come back and tell me I am talking rubbish. 25000 plus hive seasons says it works without giving any problems.


Very different location of course but we tried it on twenty this year. Very impressed with the ease with which they drew the foundation -we even incorporated a few wired but foundationless frames into the mix and they were filled OK -but slower than the frames with foundation obviously. Ask me again in May, but as things stand I can see this practice becoming central to the way I keep bees.

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## Calluna4u

> On the topic of numbers not adding up ...
> 
> *That's the truth...the numbers in beekeeping make a little sense at times, and the 275K as the number of colonies in the UK is very suspicious. Utterly static for a decade.*
> 
> I seriously question your claim of an overall 60% loss  rate 
> 
> *Not my figures, they were compiled by various people, were regionally very mixed, but it WAS a very serious winter and losses of that level, even if you accept only 40%, are very damaging....but it was ONE winter in the last 5, not happened since.*
> 
> and also wonder whether the beekeepers which were nearly wiped out  were really the 'very good beekeepers' you think.  
> ...


....

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## fatshark

> This also applies to amateurs. Such a lot of the huge flow of imports you describe goes to rank amateurs getting into a hobby to 'save the bees' but who in fact often lose their stock and contribute to increasing the risks of new pathogens and poorly adapted bee stock arriving in the UK. The fact that many are unaware of the recently imported status of the stocks they purchased is a serious indictment of the way the trade operates.


I think it's also a serious indictment of the way a lot of training and associations work I'm afraid Gavin. *These comments do not directly apply to Scotland as I've no real experience (yet) of how associations here train new beekeepers ...* 

I'd started writing a response to the comment by *mbc* _Of the hundreds of bka's in the uk, most will presumably raise nucs to supply beginners_ but got overtaken by other events. The short answer to this is "many don't".

Beekeeping is fashionable and many associations train large numbers of new beekeepers each season. I know of at least two large associations (150-250 members) that train ~20% of their total membership each year. Nevertheless, membership numbers increase by at most 2-5% per year. A lot start and then abandon it during or after the first season ... perhaps after the first winter if they've not received sufficient mentoring to prepare their colony (colonies) in late summer. Many, many others start without any training at all. You can't learn this stuff from books.

Clearly not everyone who completes the beginners course decides to start keeping bees, but a significant proportion do. The demand in early season is - as Gavin and calluna4u say - enormous. Do these associations cap the spaces available for training based upon the numbers of nucs that could reasonably be expected to be _locally_ available? Do they use association apiaries primarily for nuc production to meet this demand? Do they guarantee (within reason) a nuc of known provenance to all those who complete their course? Do they guarantee mentoring through the first critical season when more or less everything is new? No they don't. I've long thought this was irresponsible. Beginners courses are used as a revenue-generation stream. 50 new starters at, say, £75-85/head is a nice chunk of cash for 6-8 theory sessions and one or two early season apiary sessions, perhaps with the vague offer of some mentoring going forward together with a place on the 'swarm list'. Not all associations operate like this of course ... but there are loads of new beekeepers, unlucky beekeepers and hapless beekeepers who start or 'do' their beekeeping without help from any association.

The associations often feed the demand without making any organised attempt to meet it. I think that a consequence of this is that the standard of amateur beekeeping is highly variable and that the average is rather low. Clearly we all know friends and colleagues who are excellent but these are often the exception rather than the rule. My involvement in mentoring and queen rearing over the last few years has shown that there's a lot of enthusiasm but very variable competence. In shared apiaries (_i.e._all beekeepers 'trained' locally) there were individuals routinely losing swarms, failing to treat for mites, feeding too late _etc_. When challenged some would respond that they could easily get replacements by buying them in. Presumably those with colonies in their back gardens have the same range of competence. Goodness only knows how people do with no training. All of this generates intolerable demand ...

One way to reduce this demand is to increase the standard of beekeeping. As I said earlier in this thread, I'd prefer we didn't have imports to the UK because every package, queen or nuc that arrives has a payload of viruses that are never tested for. These viruses are highly variable and regularly genetically recombine ... in distantly related human viruses such recombinants have been shown to have novel and highly unpleasant (_i.e._ fatal) characteristics. Every year beekeepers struggle with DWV. The last couple of years have seen significant problems with the related paralysis viruses (also Iflaviruses). As far as I'm aware none of these viruses are tested for and, often, we wouldn't know what particular combination or cocktail of pathogens were the ones to look out for.cheap imports are a quick fix for poor beekeeping. They're a quick fix for impatient beekeepers. And they're a solution that - at 30-50 or whatever the wholesale cost is (I think it's in an earlier post from c4u) - discourages beekeepers to routinely acquire the skills necessary to prepare and overwinter nucs, or for associations to devote the time and energy to teaching these skills.

Is there a solution? ... possibly, but it's not necessarily easy or quick. Change would be required at national and association level at the very least. National association would need to be honest about "the bees are all dying" ... this sort of misinformation has been a boost to their coffers as well as to the associations.

PS When / where did this paralysis virus (acute, chronic, slow?? ... I think not chronic from the beekeepers I've talked to) come from and who has it largely affected? Is there a correlation between imported stocks and paralysis? 

PPS I'd encourage DR to take up the offer from calluna4u ... I value his contribution to these forums and have enjoyed (and been educated by) talking with him

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## Calluna4u

> A bit of hyperbole there - see comments above about businesses in Ireland that work on improving the bee they already have rather than bringing in allsorts.
> 
> Divergent agendas because there are many reasons why wholesale importation is bad for beekeeping and the disapproval of it as a routine practice is widespread.  Agendas though?  Do those with different opinions from you have agendas and you just have views?  Personally, I think that you are exaggerating for effect.  I've yet to meet anyone who realistically wants the UK to go back to an Amm reserve - I think fatshark was throwing in the quote from the BKF because it contrasts greatly with your view of the beekeeping world.


There are plenty people in Ireland who disagree, and they have their fair share of carnie and buckfast keepers who have described the Galtee product in terms you know very well.....lol as you also know I tried them here myself....no better than our basic local stock, but the good ones were worth persisting with.

Of course I have an opinion, and I don't mind it being challenged. too little of that happens in beekeeping and certain individuals have their opinions accepted as facts...just because they say it. I often describe beekeeping, especially in the UK, as 'opinion rich, fact deficient'.

Some most definitely do have agendas, and to an extent so do I. I am in favour of a properly REGULATED status quo and will argue the case for that. 

I have met the Amm fanatics as I am sure you have too, and it is not in dispute that some, not all in the Celtic extremities, are of that view. I did indeed over egg the case with fatshark because the question was not about what would happen, but what would need to happen if a special status on genetic grounds was to be granted to the UK to allow border closure *on that basis*. It wont happen.

That people have agendas beyond the superficial issue was well illustrated in recent times by the response to two events.......the fly larvae in the dead bees cluster in Switzerland and the tragic (and all the authorities now admit it was an over reaction) destruction of a full load of packages from Italy bound for northern Europe due to defective paperwork accompanying the load. The cries, not just on here, were that SHB had been confirmed (it never was so why did people say that?) and close the borders now, and the destruction was described by a few people as a triumph, and showed we should close the borders now. I maybe got more grouchy than I should have with these cases.......

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## gavin

In 2015 (nearly wrote 'this year') I had two colonies headed by Irish Amm queens raised in Belfast but with a mother from an independent Irish Amm bee farmer, Pat Deasy.  These two were the best performing in the apiary which otherwise has the mixed stock available in the Errol area pushed towards Amm by my futile efforts to select for that.  One, hybridised with Buckfast, was murderous.  The other was fine but defensive when the weather was poor - perhaps influenced by its hybridised sister alongside.  Yes, you mentioned that Amm has a name for being particulary defensive when conditions were poor, but overall the pure one was a great colony, slow to make swarming preparations (and easily discouraged when it did so eventually) and particularly productive for the site and year.  The queens are now entering their third year.

I also have two stocks with Belfast Irish queens from a mother sourced from the heart of the Galtee group, both 2015 queens.  Both seem like good stocks so far but have not been tested in a full season.  

DR also had queens from Jon and really liked what he saw.  Can I drag you along to see mine in the height of the season?  

These are not destined to be used as breeding stock, just to use to compare with the best of the Scottish-sourced Amm.  The Errol apiary was never going to be a place to breed stock.  

It doesn't surprise me that Irish carnie or Buckfast supporters denigrate Irish dark natives (or vice versa), that is just the way beekeepers are.  Nor that (some) people who are against imports get excited when they hear of a Swiss inspector who was convinced he'd found SHB.  People like to see evidence that supports the positions they already hold.  

Fatshark, spot on.  On average, I think that the LAs in Scotland do this a bit better.  Locally we have certainly been able to satisfy every one of our beginners with bees either from the association apiary or from a couple of members who raise extra stocks.

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## gavin

PS  Yes, I know I am risking bringing in unknown Belfast pathogens.  Sorry  :Wink: .  Just queens though.

PPS  You are allowed to be a bit grouchy after the month you've had  :Smile: .

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## Calluna4u

> In 2015 (nearly wrote 'this year') 
> DR also had queens from Jon and really liked what he saw.  Can I drag you along to see mine in the height of the season? 
> 
> *Of course! Hope you would be happy if Jolanta came along too. Maybe armed with a wet towel and a sharp knife?* 
> 
> These are not destined to be used as breeding stock, just to use to compare with the best of the Scottish-sourced Amm. 
> 
> *Why not? Sometimes the diversity make for better long term results than going too narrow in your selections. As you know we do not incorporate more than 50 from any one mother into our unit to avoid inbreeding. The diversity is SO valuable long term, and with Ireland having a good sized population of the bees you prefer then why not incorporate it. there is a vast Amm resource in France you might want to look at too....and Cornwall which as you saw tested best at Sussex.*
> 
> ...


....

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## Calluna4u

> PS  Yes, I know I am risking bringing in unknown Belfast pathogens.  Sorry .  Just queens though.
> 
> PPS  You are allowed to be a bit grouchy after the month you've had .



Lol @ unknown pathogens from Belfast. Not a thing I would have any fear of...bring in hundreds of queens if you want!


Mind you.......if at some time we are at the mating location....and drones are around in numbers sand you can hear FEK.....GIRLS....DRINK...AR**E....then I might suspect you of flooding the place with Emerald Isle drones...

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR also had queens from Jon and really liked what he saw.  Can I drag you along to see mine in the height of the season?  
> 
> .


Two

Wendy gave me one F.O.C. to see what I thought
That one the bees are all black and VG

Jon gave me the second one FOC
Because the bees are not all black 
we will see how they go this year

There are always ways to side track any discussion so let me just say

Small Hive Beetle is not in the UK
Small hive Beetle is in Italy
If we import bees from Italy there is a serious risk it will come here
C4u is one of the main importers of Italian package bees
Those are facts

There are plenty bees in the UK without imports
No amount of mooching round other peoples apiaries changes that
Those two are opinions

There is a difference

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## gavin

The only issue I might have with that is that 'Plenty bees in the UK without imports' is an opinion verging on a fact.

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## mbc

> Two
> 
> Wendy gave me one F.O.C. to see what I thought
> That one the bees are all black and VG
> 
> Jon gave me the second one FOC
> Because the bees are not all black 
> we will see how they go this year
> 
> ...


Clearly expressed, my boys would say "boom!".

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## gavin

> Hope you would be happy if Jolanta came along too. Maybe armed with a wet towel and a sharp knife?


Of course!

G.

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## Calluna4u

> There are always ways to side track any discussion so let me just say
> 
> 
> If we import bees from Italy there is a serious risk it will come here
> 
> 
> There are plenty bees in the UK without imports


You will not find me trying to sidetrack this matter, but you have to allow the conversation to stray a little at times and me to be allowed to respond.

Unless you see the precautions being taken, the severity of the checks (including an inspector even going round every package at the cold store to check the cage floors for beetles etc) and the fact no bees from southern Italy come here (as far as I know) and most definitely not from the affected provinces or the neighbouring ones, you cannot say if the risk is nil, minor, significant or serious. I will do better than invite you to see what the checks are like......why not do a co driver run? then you will see it all and you will be very surprised at how thorough a job is done, all on bees from over 1000 km from SHB.

I see how it is done and how lax it is here, and for sure I would prefer to buy the very nice Buckfast that come from there than UK stock that I had not seen the provenance of for myself.

Plenty of bees in the UK without imports is also a point of debate. You see it that way, but there are a sufficient number who don't to stop it being a concensus.

Anyway...its an ill wind..... this thread brought forth an order for packages tonight. 110 to an assortment of people...to be fair only one of them mentioned the thread but its a group order from new buyers. Scottish too.

I guess the last thing about mooching around others apiaries is a decline then? Shame. I do not shirk away from dealing with issues like this and getting you in front of me and SHOWING you what is done here might improve understanding.

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## Calluna4u

Just a short update on the 'no shortage of bees' statement.

I go into my office for the first time since Hogmanay to find three more *inquiries* for packages....as heavy losses from worn out bees, poor matings, and virus issues are expected to give them significant problems in spring. In this case they are from Yorkshire, Shropshire, and Essex. Total 250, limited mostly by what the think they can afford. None yet firm orders.

Another from someone with 20% losses already and half their remaining colonies 'too small' though they are not at the stage of ordering yet and wondering how late they can leave it. A prolonged spell of hard weather might see a lot of the little ones off. As for our own unit, I don't see the losses being catastrophic now, as most of the bees I see still have a very decent cluster size. There are exceptions, as always we have a few ropier groups.

Queenless booster packages are also being asked about, quite a common practice in parts of Europe, but rare here.

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## mbc

> Queenless booster packages are also being asked about, quite a common practice in parts of Europe, but rare here.


Im overwintering dozens of queens in mini plus hives (any I've checked are looking good -20% losses already!!!!!!! very odd!) and if the majority make it through as I'm expecting I'd thought about queenless packages to make instant colonies with these queens for filling dead outs. Upon evaluating the idea I decided this would be hypocrisy considering my general stance on imports, I do wonder wether I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face though. I'm sure other queen breeders on the forum also overwintering mated queens in small boxes will also have considered this compromise, use a foreign workforce to augment native genetics, but, especially considering where the q- nucs come from and shb,  something is cross grained about the very idea of it to me.

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## Calluna4u

> Im overwintering dozens of queens in mini plus hives (any I've checked are looking good -20% losses already!!!!!!! very odd!) and if the majority make it through as I'm expecting I'd thought about queenless packages to make instant colonies with these queens for filling dead outs. Upon evaluating the idea I decided this would be hypocrisy considering my general stance on imports, I do wonder wether I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face though. I'm sure other queen breeders on the forum also overwintering mated queens in small boxes will also have considered this compromise, use a foreign workforce to augment native genetics, but, especially considering where the q- nucs come from and shb,  something is cross grained about the very idea of it to me.


If you don't need early strength you can easily shake them from your own stronger colonies. Yes we do that too......if we need to. Just be sure to mix up the queenless bees from at least two colonies, three or more is better. Over rides the fighting instinct, causes confusion, and makes queen acceptance better.

Genetics pollution is not normally an issue with packages (have seen some poor exceptions) as the best producers supply them drone free. Usually taken from the honey supers above excluders. Gives the best age bees for the job, especially if they are going onto foundation at destination (best way for health). Applies equally well to imported or local packages.

Did quite a few this way last season...worked fine......though there can be a tendency to supercedure if the queen comes from a very small mating nuc (smaller than the others overwintered the same way I mean) as it can indicate that the reason that nuc is especially small is due to a limitation in the queen, and once she comes under major pressure to lay she cannot cut it.

The guy reporting the 20% losses already did so in November. That was the rate of robbed out, queenless, or drone layers after the heather. June excepted it really was a very poor queen mating season up here. Requeening, or at least hoping for queens to mate, at the heather is just a waste of time the success rate is so low...and these bees were all at the heather. I do not have anything like that and some of my groups currently look like a fair bet for 100% winter success...but of course it never quite works out that way as you come across the drone layers, queenless ones, and other issues once you get into them in spring.

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## gavin

> I go into my office for the first time since Hogmanay to find three more *inquiries* for packages....as heavy losses from worn out bees, poor matings, and virus issues are expected to give them significant problems in spring. In this case they are from Yorkshire, Shropshire, and Essex. Total 250, limited mostly by what the think they can afford. None yet firm orders.


Once upon a time there were two bee farmers, both with 100 colonies.  I know, not really enough but it makes the arithmetic easier.  One just went for honey, then found his stocks not doing well over-winter.  Burnt-out, he thought.  Could be virus, or Varroa, he wasn't sure.  So he decided to buy packages to fill the anticipated 50 empty boxes.  Cost him £88 to get a strong unit that was back into production within a month of arrival, perhaps early June if he was lucky.  Let's ignore frame, foundation and feeding costs.  Half of his operation was now headed by imported queens which gave him nice well behaved colonies (that season) which were productive but needed more feeding and visits so in the end were about as economic as his previous locally adapted types.  £4400 spent.  He could justify that to himself (and anyone else) as the honey crop gained from his empty boxes was worth more than that.  He was happy with his way of doing things and told his mates all about it.

The other bee farmer also had 100 colonies and also didn't pay too much attention to her (we've randomly switched gender) bees getting burnt out, or virus ridden or with a little too much Varroa (personal issues at the wrong time of year).  However in the winter months before the season got underway she was astute enough to invest in 100 Paynes nuc boxes (£2,500, it was sale time and she pressed those Paynes brothers hard for a little extra discount).  At swarming time she split off two frames of bees into two Paynes boxes from the half of the (particularly well-behaved) colonies that tried to swarm.  That lost her a small fraction of her final honey crop, a hardly noticeable 5% (£1,250).  These splits were fed as required (£300).  It was a *really* bad year for queen mating so with failures and a little fusing later she was down to 60 well-filled Paynes nucs by the end of the season.  What now?  The Paynes nucs were well looked after and pre-screened for dodgy queens so 50 came through the winter.  The main colonies didn't fare so well (burnt out, virus, Varroa - she'd had personal problems in August and September remember) and 50 looked like they weren't going to make it.  Nae bother, she was able to refill using her spare nucs.  Pity, she had been hoping to sell them early in the season for £150 each (£12,000 for 80 in a good year).  Never mind, maybe next year.  However she still had those 100 Paynes nucs to do it all again next year ...... and next year she swore to find a way to pay better attention to the health of the main colonies when they really needed a spot of feed or a Varroa treatment.  Also, she was able to get a little more of an early season crop than BF1 as her overwintered nucs built up earlier than BF1's packages.

Beefarmer 1.
Costs (excluding frames and some feed) - £4400

Beefarmer 2.
Costs (excluding a similar number of frames and some extra work, and including the extra feed, the Paynes boxes, paint for them (£100) and the small loss of the honey crop from additional splits) - £4150
Additional benefits
    - the sale of nucs next year when things go better and 80 are extra: £12,000
    - half of the early season crop (missed by BF1): £5,000
    - no purchase needed from Paynes in year 2 so the whole thing gets better in subsequent years

Who was the better beekeeper (or businessperson?)?  What did Bee farmer 1 do with the splits he'd be doing anyway as part of his swarm control - don't know!

Community benefits from a) more settled genetics locally, b) small reduction in the risk of non-indigenous viruses, c) small reduction in the risk of importing Varroa pre-adapted to newish varroaicides, d) better beekeeping locally
    - very hard to quantify

That's my answer to the 'not enough bees' argument  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## mbc

> Once upon a time there were two bee farmers, both with 100 colonies. .........
> 
> That's my answer to the 'not enough bees' argument .


Winters hardly started here, I hope you've got lots more "once upon a time"s up your sleave Gavin.

Seriously, it's the man (or woman in your example, why was it the woman who had personal issus at a certain time of year Gavin? Not very pc, does she also bat for the other side?) hours of extra work raising lots of nucs that shouldn't be underestimated, it really has to be an integrated plan with swarm control and maybe queen rearing too, not everyone has the inclination, something always has to give if you're already hard pushed. Also, as C4u alluded to earlier in the thread, packages are almost maintenance free with regard to swarm control in their first year.
Obviously I'm 100% with you that beefarmer 2 ' scheme is more progressive, but it would take a sea change of approach for some, and possibly managing fewer colonies too. If it were that easy more would be doing it already.

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## gavin

The gender switch came about as BF2 was starting to sound a bit too like me!  (I have no intention of getting rid of the beard and some other things .... ).  At least it sounds like some of my aspirations if not the achievements.  

Yes, queen rearing and integrating with swarm control make things even better but I was trying to keep this simple.  I'd maybe take issue with this being far from the methods of many existing bee farmers.  I'm doing the split into a Paynes box alongside as I don't like heights  :Smile: .  Do an extra split with a queen cell into a second Paynes box, take them away or block them in a couple of days and we're already at the system of BF2.

The remaining unit is the strong, honey producing one with lots of brood to hatch out.  If things are advanced, whittle down to one queen cell and come back to remove the extra ones they'll make later.  If queen cells are not yet sealed, walk away and come back a week later when you'll again leave one.  Can take a split then if you need more.  This usually remains a very good production unit with the bulk of the bees and a new young queen for the late summer forage.

Oops, misunderstood C4U's system.

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## mbc

2013 and 2014 were real eye openers for me where I took massive hauls off some very strong hives which hadn't been split. In previous seasons I'd have probably split these for increase near enough as you describe, but reading Mike Palmer's advice ( and listening and watching his excellent lectures from the nhs) I tried leaving big production colonies intact, as much as their swarming intentions allowed, and made my nucs from underperformers/ dinks. Given that we get a period of high pressure during the summer it's a real pleasure to watch colonies seriously reaching their potential and getting enormous quantities of honey and I think doing things this way pushed my averages up. 
Sorry if this has nothing to do with shb, delete/move it if you like.

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## Kate Atchley

Bee farmer 2 sounds familiar ... guess you know her!

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## gavin

> Bee farmer 2 sounds familiar ... guess you know her!


Totally fictitious, although slightly autobiographical here and there.  The 'personal issues' were largely to explain away her close attention to her Paynes nucs earlier in the summer but taking her eye off the ball a little later in the season regarding Varroa control and feeding in times of need - so that she ended up in a similar position to BF1.

If there is a bee farmer like that (and especially if she's single ... ) you'll need to pass on her details as I'd like to meet her!

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## SDM

> That's my answer to the 'not enough bees' argument .


Then you'll be happy to price match with the countries that can produce enough.
I'll take 50.
But no, you'd want 5 times the price wouldn't you ? Could that be supply and demand ?

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## gavin

> Then you'll be happy to price match with the countries that can produce enough.
> I'll take 50.
> But no, you'd want 5 times the price wouldn't you ? Could that be supply and demand ?


No, the current local price is nothing like 5 times.  My contributions on this thread have been all about increasing local supply and decreasing demand simultaneously.

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## Kate Atchley

> Then you'll be happy to price match with the countries that can produce enough.
> I'll take 50. But no, you'd want 5 times the price wouldn't you ? ...


Reminds me of the airmiles issue with imported goods/food. 
Nowhere in the price to UK beekeepers is built in the downstream cost of bringing in non-UK bees which are potential diseased, pest-carrying and poorly acclimatised, let along the hidden pollution 'cost' of the airmiles they travel.
Anyone care to estimate the extra cost? 
Reminds me of the length of "a piece of string" !

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## SDM

When a package of bees sells in Italy for about £30 you could fly them round the world twice and still save money.

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## SDM

> No, the current local price is nothing like 5 times.  My contributions on this thread have been all about increasing local supply and decreasing demand simultaneously.


My mistake, only 3 times as much. Using your local price of £150

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## mbc

> Reminds me of the airmiles issue with imported goods/food. 
> Nowhere in the price to UK beekeepers is built in the downstream cost of bringing in non-UK bees which are potential diseased, pest-carrying and poorly acclimatised, let along the hidden pollution 'cost' of the airmiless they travel.
> Anyone care to estimate the extra cost? 
> Reminds me of the length of "a piece of string" !


If, for instance, shb was brought over in a package, the cost to the uk tax payer would be in the millions. Anybody who thinks this isn't true haven't thought about the contingency plans being swung into place and all the frantic, costly activity by government agencies trying to close the stable doors in a vain effort to disguise ministerial apathy. Then there's the compo.
Then there's the incalculable cost of the distress felt by beekeepers seeing their pride and joy going up in flames.( I suppose this would be much less if you don't give a toss what bees are in your hives as you could simply ship in some cheap replacements, sigh!)

C4u may not think shb is anything to worry about but all of the above will take place when shb inevitably (with our current negligible border controls) arrives.

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## Kate Atchley

> When a package of bees sells in Italy for about £30 you could fly them round the world twice and still save money.


If cost was our overriding concern, we'd surely never have started beekeeping in this climate.

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## gavin

No.  Packages available locally, in bulk, £88.  You can't fly Italian packages three times round the work for a few quid.  Add on the cost of frames and foundation, another £8?  And in the extra cost of selling in ones and two to a diversity of people who will need a lot of customer service.  Not that far off parity I'd have thought.  Now apply reduction in demand if all the poor beekeepers supported by imports magically became good beekeepers.  You can also reduce the price of local supplies if more people produce their own.  

Wouldn't it be great if you could also build into this the hidden cost of importing as mentioned by Kate and mbc?

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## mbc

> If cost was our overriding concern, we'd surely never have started beekeeping in this climate.


Isn't it the case that the bees where here naturally before we started keeping them?
Maybe not on the islands, but still, we would have been robbing wild colonies long before housing them on the mainland.

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## Kate Atchley

> Isn't it the case that the bees where here naturally before we started keeping them?
> Maybe not on the islands, but still, we would have been robbing wild colonies long before housing them on the mainland.


Yes indeed mbc ... long before folk began buying/constructing kit for the bees and all the paraphernalia we now use. And Varroa has surely knocked out "naturally" dwelling colonies in most areas now.

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## The Drone Ranger

I haven’t been a big supporter of campaigns to buy local bees or Amm etc in the past 
This thread had taught me a thing or two about what really goes on in the beekeeping world, 
Perhaps its time to have a rethink that and put my shoulder to the wheel

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-...sed-in-europe/


Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Calluna4u

This thread...if indeed it is anything to do with this thread, has brought some interesting mail to my inbox.

A guy in Spain just messaged me hoping I might be able to place the 500 nucs on combs he supplied annually to the UK. He has a lot of last years left (200) all on BS National frames due to non payment by his UK client.

He was breeding them for a guy in England and they were being supplied all over, even Lewis was mentioned on the list of destinations. All black bees.

If this gets out please all be clear on one thing. I will NOT get involved in importing any bees on combs. NOT SAFE, and its more about brood diseases than SHB.

I see no reference to any of this on any import statistics, and I have reason to believe they were all being sold as UK domestic product. All were northern Spanish black bees on BS combs. So...if you bought any nice black bees on new BS frames thinking you were getting British Amm, you might be a little surprised.

Not going to put the full info up on here but will let Gavin see it in private if he wants.

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## The Drone Ranger

The moral of the story is that if you care about bees don't order them from online companies who are importing them join the local association
I realise now local associations need all the help they can get to produce enough bees to meet demand


Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## greengumbo

Anyone else read the section in Scottish beekeeping magazine about insurance from hive beetle. The premise for not offering insurance (and I'm not suggesting they should or shouldnt) was that the fund that would be accessed in the outbreak of SHB would be used up by the time the beetles got to Scotland. Seems a bit presumptuous to assume that the beetle would take a long time to get to Scotland in the event of arriving in Kent or further along the coast. I would think that entry points of SHB may well be on the south coast....but that bees get moved around a lot quicker and more directly than the SBA seem to think.

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## fatshark

No GG ... there's another scenario ... the £££ put aside is limited, very limited. I believe it's £50,000 ... happy to be corrected but check here:

"*Am I covered in respect of Small Hive Beetle and the Tropilaelaps mite?*
_The Directors have agreed that there should be a scheme in the event of these pests arriving in England or Wales. As with varroa, when they do arrive they may well become endemic and have to be managed as an element of routine beekeeping practice. Compensation for the destruction of honey bee colonies because of Small Hive Beetle and Tropilaelaps infestation is consistent with BDIs founding principles, that a compensation scheme encourages beekeepers to come forward if there is any cause for concern. It was agreed in 2006 that BDI cover should be extended to compensate for the statutory destruction of colonies, hives and equipment on account of either Small Hive Beetle or Tropilaelaps infestations. A maximum amount of £50,000. per annum will be available to cover claims. Each eligible claim will be covered to a maximum of £150 per hive. This amount will be adjusted to take into account the condition of equipment, (Excellent - as new, Good or Poor, as certified by the Bee Inspector), providing the beekeeper is not otherwise insured or entitled to obtain compensation elsewhere. The amount will be calculated pro rata between all claims in any year, so if they collectively exceed £50,000, each claim will be proportionately reduced. Settlement will be made after all claims for that year are processed. Should these pests become endemic and statutory control abandoned, then BDI compensation cover will cease._"

My emboldened text.

I think C4U has indicated that endemicity might be announced rather quicker than we might hope ... perhaps reflecting the limited chance of eradicating it once it's here. So the compensation might only be available for a year or so.

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## Kate Atchley

Thanks for the link fatshark. Insurance (or the lack of it) causing concern for beekeeping organisations just now ... and their members. We could take out BBKA membership I suppose, if we wanted in on the scheme.

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## MaryMac

I have been advised that a field of oilseed rape close to my hives will be sprayed with Biscaya, produced by Bayer for beetle management. Despite googling, I cannot find out how long after spraying period that bees should remain in the hive. Does anyone have up to date info on this?

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