# General beekeeping > Starting out >  Help for a newbie

## Bridget

Just been in to give our late July five frame nucleus some more feed and a thorough check which we haven't done for a couple of weeks, though we added Apistan strips 4 days ago. Today our quiet non agressive bees had become pretty cross.  Found the Queen, saw white capped honey and uncapped, capped brood and brood and some pollen but were not able to find any eggs, mainly due to volume of bees on the frames. They seemed so furious we didn't like to push them about too much. Some questions - would the Apistan made them cross?  Is it normal for them to make a hole through one of the frames/foundation?  I am uploading some photos, one of the Queen and another of the amount of bees on one of the frames. Would you say all looks normal? Any comments gratefully receivedAttachment 820Attachment 821Attachment 822

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## fatshark

I've not used Apistan, but Apiguard certainly makes them tetchy and often puts the queen off laying.  I went through a hive yesterday that has had five weeks of Apiguard and now has almost no brood, though it's still bursting with bees.  You can always shake the bees off the frames to get a better view, though mind the Q.  Finally, holes are not unusual, nor is nibbling the foundation away from the bottom/edges of the frame ... I think they do this deliberately to make some escape routes to ensure locating the Q is more difficult!

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fatshark

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## Jon

I have never noticed a change of temper with either Apiguard or Apistan, although I agree with fatshark that with Apiguard, the queen often stops laying and the bees can even decide to remove pupae in some colonies.
I have treated about 20 colonies with Apiguard this year and it has not provoked any noticeable change in temper. I opened several colonies a couple of weeks ago to demonstrate to visitors how calm they were.
I used to use Apistan and I never noticed any change in temper with it.
A colony which seems to be ok as a smallish nuc can reveal its true colours re aggression when it triples or quadruples in numbers.
Other factors such as wasps or lack of nectar income can affect the temper of a colony as well.

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## Bridget

Thanks for that folks.  We did try shaking them off but they just got angrier! No wasps around and heather not far away. 
The aggressive behaviour is just in the last few days - maybe they were fed up with the poor weather.  However, although this nuc seems to have grown a lot and is now very busy, they don't seem great at going out and bringing back the goods.  Considering how many there are inside there are never that many flying back and forward or crowding at the entrance.  Could they have been relying too much on the sugar syrup and cross today because they had run out.  sorry that seems a dumb comment but its all new.  I don't see why our very docile nuc, and they were chosen as such because we are beginners, should suddenly turn.  Still, we are not put off, we just didn't want to upset them any more.  I think we will leave them for a bit til they need more syrup.

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## Trog

We avoid shaking our bees off the frames unless we really must see a whole frame unhindered (eg for a disease check).  They really don't like it! To move them off just a bit in the middle to check for eggs, try blowing gently.  Ours don't seem to mind that.  Your bees may be upset because wasps or other bees have been trying to get in, attracted by syrup. This may have been happening when you weren't looking.  Or there's a thunderstorm approaching ... 
We find ours are only crowding at the entrance if they're rushing home because there's a big black cloud in the offing, otherwise there's a steady coming and going during the day.  And, yes, they like rearranging foundation and chewing holes in odd places!

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## Bridget

Thanks Trog I will try the blowing thing next time.

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## fatshark

Blowing on them gently certainly moves the bees, but can upset them as well.  Mine definitely don't like it.  An alternative is to gently place the back of your hand onto the seething mass of workers ... they'll clear enough to see any eggs etc.

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fatshark

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## Calum

> Blowing on them gently certainly moves the bees, but can upset them as well.  Mine definitely don't like it.  An alternative is to gently place the back of your hand onto the seething mass of workers ... they'll clear enough to see any eggs etc.
> --
> fatshark


Hi
certainly if you have what bees would regard as bad breath.
I always take the first bit of propolis I see and chew on it. After it has warmed up I have never had an issue with bees minding being blown about, and have far far fewer stings to the face (I like to go commando on em). 
ttfn
Calum

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## Jon

I move the bees from the centre of the frame with my fingers when I need to check for eggs.

Re. the aggression, in your photo the bees are a real mixture from very yellow to all black which shows that your queen almost certainly mated with different coloured drones.
Hybrid colonies are often quite aggressive in my experience although you can be lucky and get a quiet one.
Were they sold as local mongrels?

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## Neils

I get the impression that blowing on bees as a practice is somewhat falling out of favour, at least around these parts. Not entirely sure why as it's never seemed to particularly bother mine. I just gently brush the backs of the bees I want to move and they happily oblige.

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## fatshark

> (I like to go commando on em). 
> ttfn
> Calum


I might sometimes approach the hive without a veil, but "going commando" is surely asking for real trouble ... ;-)

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fatshark

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## The Drone Ranger

On the subject of no protection I once collected a big swarm (not mine) which I put in a hive under the tree I had climbed to get them.
Later I went back closed them up and lifted the hive so I could move it to a final site.
The floor fell off and the bees, which I thought would be a gentle swarm, piled out on mass.
I had 30+ stings on my legs alone (jeans) before counting the belly and lower back.
Lucky I had a bee hat on at least.
That was the day I learned just how fast a fat boy can run  :Smile:

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## Calum

had my fair (and unfair) share of stings. I find the experience of working with bees without any protection focuses the mind much better on what is in front of me.
Stings are not that bad, unless they are on the end of the nose. Even that is not as bad as one on the end of your wee man. Trust me on that. Wasnt so wee after though...

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## Bridget

> I move the bees from the centre of the frame with my fingers when I need to check for eggs.
> 
> Re. the aggression, in your photo the bees are a real mixture from very yellow to all black which shows that your queen almost certainly mated with different coloured drones.
> Hybrid colonies are often quite aggressive in my experience although you can be lucky and get a quiet one.
> Were they sold as local mongrels?


No they weren't sold as mongrels and I've never really noticed.  I will pay more attention next time but I think it's just the light.  Though the sellers do have lots of hives.  Re going commando  - not for me though I have refilled the syrup commando in their more docile days.

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## The Drone Ranger

> No they weren't sold as mongrels and I've never really noticed.  I will pay more attention next time but I think it's just the light.  Though the sellers do have lots of hives.  Re going commando  - not for me though I have refilled the syrup commando in their more docile days.


Most of the bees in in the UK will be hybrids that's not a problem  your bees were OK to handle before and they will be again.
Weather, temperature, no incoming nectar,wasps getting in, other bees robbing having to poke about putting on treatments etc. 
Less brood bad mood syndrome.  :Smile: 

Rapid feeders are good if your bees are in the garden or close to home because you fill them without taking anything off the hive, they only hold a couple of litres though

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## Adam

Bridget,
I had a nuc this year that was boiling out of the hive and not gentle as I would have expected when opening up. They were bursting at the seams and once moved to a larger box, became much better behaved. I put it down to them finding it difficult to all squeeze in the small box.
If you do that you will need to ensure the box is not too big or they will be unable to keep it warm so the spare space will need to be packed with something.  I have a couple of supers I use on nucs occasionally and I have some 8 frame nationals too. Both work for overwintering.

Weather can also have an effect on temperament.

How old is your queen? If she has been laying for  - say 5 - 6 weeks and her own daughters are now reaching maturity as older flying bees and are being a nuisance, then you may just be unlucky with a difficult colony to deal with.

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## Adam

> Stings are not that bad, unless they are on the end of the nose. Even that is not as bad as one on the end of your wee man. Trust me on that. Wasnt so wee after though...


I am trying NOT to conjour up a mental picture of this one.  :Smile:

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## Bridget

Adam -  Very interesting - this was our original thought, 10 days ago, that they were getting over crowded so we added a super, then didn't know what to fill that with so added some frames.  A few days later we decided this was a bad idea as winter was coming so we took it all off again and confined them to the brood box ( and the sugar syrup feeder) as we thought they would then fill the last couple of frames with honey from the heather and have good stock for winter.  They have 11 frames and a dummy.  As newbies we don't have any more kit or boxes to move them too and as I guess the queen will stop laying soon, the numbers will go down.  Who knows whats for the best!
We got the nuc and the queen, who is a 2010 queen, white marker, about 7 weeks ago so maybe her mature daughters are playing up.  I shall feed them all quietly this evening and then perhaps have another look in the brood box on Monday if the weather improves.

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