# More ... > Beekeeping and the environment >  Scottish MEP calls for ban of neonicotinoids

## Stromnessbees

Thank you for supporting us beekeepers and the bees, Alyn!


http://www.alynsmith.eu/_case_to_ans...noids_and_bees 
*"Case to answer" on neonicotinoids and bees* 	 	 		 			 Posted by Laura Rayner 54.80pc on February 20, 2013 · Flag 


    	 		 		Alyn Smith MEP, Scottish member of the European Parliament's  Agriculture and Rural Development Committee, has today (Wednesday)  called for greater research into the impact of neonicotinoid pesticides  on bees and lambasted some colleagues for swallowing lobbying propaganda  and using scientific doubt as an excuse for inaction.
The call  came in a packed committee meeting in Brussels, attended by European  Commissioner for Health and Consumer Safety, Tonio Borg.

 The  meeting heard a presentation from the European Food Safety Agency (EFSA)  on their study into the the risks to bees from neonicotinoids,  acknowledging that there are threats to pollinators from these  chemicals, though highlighting gaps in the evidence and that there  remains some scientific dispute over the technical issues.

 Alyn said:

 "There are two bad lines of argument used on this issue. On the one  hand, 'we need more data before we act' could keep us in stasis for a  million years, but on the other, the 'precautionary principle' could be  used as justification for not getting out of bed in the morning!
 "It is up to us as legislators to make a call on the balance of the  evidence available proportionate to the scale of the risks involved, and  I've been concerned to see some MEPs parroting what is in effect  lobbying propaganda as if it were gospel handed down on tablets of  stone.

 "I have been saying this for some time: the worrying  decline in bee numbers is, at least in part, caused by toxic chemicals  sprayed on our fields.  I simply do not see how any other conclusion is  possible based on the evidence available, not least after the EFSA study  found clear links between the use of the chemicals and damage to bees.

 "I back the European Commission's proposals for a partial ban on the  most risky uses of these chemicals, but I also want to see a lot more  research and if we're proven to be over-cautious then we can relax the  ban.

 "The potential consequences for agriculture, food and  humankind of a continuing collapse in pollinators are stark.  In any  objective discussion there is always room for doubt but the more  credible data is clear, there is a case to answer and there is a need to  act."

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## gavin

There was an article in the Dundee Courier last week that discussed the disagreement between Alyn Smith and George Lyon, both MEPs whom I've met in recent months.  Perhaps I should add that we didn't discuss bees or pesticides, just potatoes.  They were presented in the article as taking opposite sides in this debate.  I can't find the Courier article online, but George Lyon's position is described here:

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/.../53540.article

Here is an excerpt.  I perfectly agree.  The available science does point to very low residues from winter OSR at a level that seems unlikely to cause harm.

_At a meeting of the EU Agriculture Committee on Wednesday,  Commissioner Tonio Borg said one option being considered was exempting  winter sown crops from any ban.
_
_
George Lyon MEP said any flexibility on the proposed neonicotinoid ban was ‘a step in the right direction’.
_

_Mr  Lyon said: “Exempting winter sown crops would give Scottish farmers a  real boost. A limited ban would reflect the science more accurately and  ensure that farmers are not being penalised on a selective reading of  the available evidence.
_

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## Stromnessbees

Well, not all MEPs and MPs have got the right attitude yet.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

To help your MP to express his support for our bees and pollinators, get him to sign the Friends of the Earth Action Plan for Bees:

http://www.foe.co.uk/what_we_do/the_...se_35033.html# 

Check if he is on this list first, he might have signed up already. If not, send him a quick note with the link!

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefi...q_v=741236bc73


If he refuses then you know where not to put your cross on the next ballot paper.

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## Stromnessbees

*.
Let's hope the right decision* *is taken in Brussels, as things are getting really bad closer to home now:


http://www.peeblesshirenews.com/news/roundup/articles/2013/03/09/449378-bee-scare-buzzes-into-tweeddale-/ 

Bee scare buzzes into Tweeddale* 

David Knox•  Published 9 Mar 2013 07:00


A  STUDY into the survival of struggling honey bees has found the Tweed Valley is  amongst the worst for mortality rates.  The research by the University of Dundee has prompted for greater action to  tackle the decline of the species.
 The science team, *with help from members of the Scottish Beekeepers  Association*, studied more than 600 colonies across the country in 2011/12.

 Of 274 colonies examined in the east of the country, 58, or *21 per cent,  failed.*
By contrast, just 14 of 286 colonies failed in the west, a smaller decline of  about five per cent.

But more worrying, locally, is that the Tweed Valley population was decimated  by just under 20 per cent - one of the worst hit areas in the country.
 Scientists believe the presence of intensive agriculture and *large areas of  oilseed rape* in the east could be linked to the poorer results for the area.

 And they criticised the lack of data available regarding pesticides used by  farmers.

Dr Christopher Connolly, who led the research, said he was stunned by the  findings. He told the Peeblesshire News: "What we do have in the east and not  the west is intensive agriculture.
 ...
 Anecdotal evidence also suggests that similar devastating losses were  experienced the previous year.
 However, even within the east, there were marked differences in death rates.  Colony losses in parts of Fife were recorded as high as 30 per cent and *the  Peeblesshire figure stood at 19 per cent.* 
...
A further study led by Dr Connolly analysed colony failure rates over winter across the country. 
*Of 89 colonies which had fed on oilseed rape, 27 failed, a death rate of 30 per cent.*
...
 Dr Connolly believes that nicotine-based pesticides, neonicotinoids, may be  contributing to the deaths of bees feeding on the crop.
 He added: "*All oilseed rape is treated with neonicotinoids*, you can't buy it  without it being pre-treated with neonicotinoids."

Dr Connolly is now demanding the centralised recording of data so that the  "multiple threats" to bees can be analysed properly. 
*And he wants the Scottish Government to take action to address the issue.*
...


(my highlights, please follow the link to read the whole article)

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## drumgerry

Just out of interest and this is a serious question  - how did Dr Connolly demarcate the division between east and west?  It seems a terrible generalisation to equate east with intensive agriculture and west with the absence of that.  For example where I live would generally be thought of as "east" and there's not an OSR field within 15 miles of me.  

And of course it's been said a million times before.  Were any of those dead outs tested for pesticide residues?  If not you'd be as accurate in saying they died from excessive exposure to oxygen.

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## Stromnessbees

> Were any of those dead outs tested for pesticide residues?  If not you'd be as accurate in saying *they died from excessive exposure to oxygen*.


I wasn't aware that there's more oxygen in the east than in the west ...

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## drumgerry

It's as valid an assertion as they died from Neonic exposure in the absence of any evidence to support it

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## Stromnessbees

> It's as valid an assertion as they died from Neonic exposure in the absence of any evidence to support it


There's a list of about 30 peer reviewed scientific studies that link neonics to problems with bees, do you have a similar list for oxygen?

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## drumgerry

And what do the 30 studies have to say about the specific colonies referred to by Dr Connolly?  My point is - how can you say "it was Neonics" when those colonies haven't been tested for them?  As well to say that the east of Scotland has a preponderance of beginning beekeepers who don't know how to get their colonies through a winter.

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## Stromnessbees

> And what do the 30 studies have to say about the specific colonies referred to by Dr Connolly?  My point is - how can you say "it was Neonics" when those colonies haven't been tested for them?  As well to say that *the east of Scotland has a preponderance of beginning beekeepers who don't know how to get their colonies through a winter.*


That's an insult to all experienced beekeepers who lost colonies due to no fault of their own. 
Clearly you are scraping the barrel with your arguments.

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## drumgerry

No answer to specific questions Doris?  You don't change do you?

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## Stromnessbees

> No answer to specific questions Doris?  You don't change do you?


I had to go out, I have no problem explaining why there are not enough analysis done that prove the neonic connection. 

For a start, most beekeepers are thoroughly *misinformed about CCD and other signs of neonic damage*.
They are told that their colonies dwindle away for all sorts of reasons, so they never even think of having an analysis done.

Secondly, the National Bee Unit only asks for bees for sampling if poisoning is suspected.
Most hives that die from neonics have hardly any bees left that could be tested. A much better way of finding neonics is by *testing wax and propolis* from the hive, but nobody tells that to the ordinary beekeeper.

It looks like the NBU doesn't want to find samples positive for neonics. 

 :Frown:

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## drumgerry

You're still not really answering the question.

Dr Connolly implies that his 21% dead colonies from the east (still no proper definition of where that is) as against 5% from the west is down to intensive agriculture and by association neonics.  My specific question is how can that be said when as far as I know there has been no pesticide analysis done of those colonies?  It is therefore pure speculation what the causes of death of those colonies are.  Speculation which fits your agenda but speculation nonetheless.

Maybe my example of over-exposure to oxygen as an equally valid reason for their deaths was a flippant one but it made the point that in the absence of any proof any cause can be made to fit

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## drumgerry

And another thing - 

You said: 


> Most hives that die from neonics have hardly any bees left that could be tested.


If this is the case (although I have my doubts) was it the case that the colonies in Dr Connolly's research were left with few bees in the hive?  If this is a diagnostic feature of neonic death was it present in most of the colony deaths recorded in the "east"?  If not maybe it wasn't neonics at all.  Maybe it was varroa or varroa-vectored viruses.  Or isolation starvation or any number of ordinary causes for colony death.

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## Stromnessbees

Wherever Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) has turned up, it was in conjunction with the use of neonics, usually in agricultural areas, but sometimes near orchards, golf courses or parks which were treated with these pesticides.
I know that there's a small army of people out there that try to confuse this basic fact, but I think I know where they come from.

I don't know Dr. Connolly's data in detail so I can't answer your questions. 
Why don't you send him an email and ask him.
I have full confidence in his assessment of the situation, and it fits in with all the other independent research that has been published on the topic.

As for the studies financed by Bayer, well they seem to come to different conclusions, but they are by far in the minority.

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## drumgerry

You don't know Dr Connolly's data in detail yet you're happy to quote it where it supports your position that CCD = neonic poisoning.  My view of what he has published is that the conclusions it comes to are seriously flawed.  We could endlessly go around the houses and I could give you a platform to repeat what you've repeated ad nauseam on every beekeeping forum known to man which hasn't banned you yet but I don't think I will.

You say there's an army of people out there confusing the "basic fact" about neonics and you know where they're coming from.  Where is that Doris?  Isn't it the case that you believe that anyone who questions your position on neonics is in the pay of the pesticide companies?  Isn't it the case that you believe that the main UK beekeeping forums are run by people in the pay of the pesticide companies?

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## Stromnessbees

> Isn't it the case that you believe that anyone who questions your position on neonics is in the pay of the pesticide companies?


Only partially correct, there are other influences besides money.





> Isn't it the case that you believe that the main UK beekeeping forums are run by people in the pay of the pesticide companies?


They certainly do their best to create that impression.

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## drumgerry

So Doris do you think I am in the pay or under the influence of the pesticide companies?

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## Stromnessbees

> So Doris do you think I am in the pay or under the influence of the pesticide companies?


AFAIK I have never met you, I can only guess.

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## drumgerry

Oh well that's progress.  I can state a position opposite to yours without being accused of taking backhanders from Bayer etc

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## gavin

> *.*
> Dr Connolly is now demanding the centralised recording of data so that the  "multiple threats" to bees can be analysed properly. 
> *And he wants the Scottish Government to take action to address the issue.*


Well, Dr Connolly, to be speaking to the Parliamentary Environmental Audit Committee, the Beeb, the Scotsman, and the Peebleshire News on this, his chosen subject, will surely have checked his facts first?  Is it true that there is no recording of data on pesticide use across Scotland?  Or is it just OK to make stuff up because it sounds good?

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## gavin

> That's an insult to all experienced beekeepers who lost colonies due to no fault of their own. 
> Clearly you are scraping the barrel with your arguments.


OK Doris, did Dr Connolly record the experience levels of the people responding?  If not, why not?

Did Dr Connolly record the levels of Varroa in the surveyed colonies, ideally in autumn?  If not, and considering the evidence from most studies of colony losses elsewhere that this is always the big one, why not?

Did he record the strength of colonies going into winter and the levels of stores in the colonies?

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## gavin

> Only partially correct, there are other influences besides money.
> 
> [on Drumgerry challenging your comment on Biobees that the main beekeeping fora are run by people in the pay of the pesticide companies]
> 
> They certainly do their best to create that impression.


Doris, this is what you said on Biobees.  Could you please explain whether you now simply think that 'they do their best to create that impression', or whether you still believe the following as posted to Biobees:

_Yes, this is outrageous! 

By now the pesticide corporations are in charge of all the major beekeeping forums, akin to foxes running the hen house.  

Our freedom of speech has been taken away, the most important discussions moved behind closed doors or severely censored.  

People, if you don't stand up against this, then you deserve the corporate dictatorship that we are heading towards,  with all food produced by Monsanto & co, as we will be unable to  grow anything for ourselves, with all the bees and other pollinators  soon gone.  

It's up to you! 
_

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## Stromnessbees

> OK Doris, did Dr Connolly record the experience levels of the people responding?  If not, why not?
> ...


As I said before: you need to ask Dr. Connolly about that, not me. 





> Doris, this is what you said on Biobees.  Could you please explain whether you now simply think that 'they do their best to create that impression', or whether you still believe the following as posted to Biobees:
> ...


Gavin, you forgot the link to my quote - it's always better if people can check out the context for themselves:

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtop...?p=91583#91583



Getting back on topic:
Gavin, I hear you had some colony losses yourself this winter.

Would you mind telling us what exactly happened, your varroa control, proximity to neonic treated OSR, etc? - After all you are in the East, which was significantly harder hit with colony losses this winter.

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## mbc

> Wherever Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) has turned up, it was in conjunction with the use of neonics, usually in agricultural areas, but sometimes near orchards, golf courses or parks which were treated with these pesticides.
> I know that there's a small army of people out there that try to confuse this basic fact, but I think I know where they come from.


All the best bee scientists in America have been trying to get their name at the top of the paper which fingers the culprit of CCD and yet they couldnt make this link with neonics, which suggests to me that its a load of crap you,Stromnessbees, have made up to suit your agenda.

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## Stromnessbees

> All the best bee scientists in America have been trying to get their name at the top of the paper which fingers the culprit of CCD and yet they couldnt make this link with neonics, which suggests to me that *its a load of crap you,Stromnessbees, have made up* to suit your agenda.


Surely you are not trying to say that it was down to me that Europe is now wanting to ban these chemicals in order to save the bees?

- I think you over estimate my influence.

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## mbc

> Surely you are not trying to say that it was down to me that Europe is now wanting to ban these chemicals in order to save the bees?
> 
> - I think you over estimate my influence.



No one plausible is calling bee collapses in Europe CCD as far as I'm aware.
Maybe your influence with BigEco is persuasive, who knows ?

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## Stromnessbees

> No one plausible is calling bee collapses in Europe CCD as far as I'm aware.
> Maybe your influence with *BigEco* is persuasive, who knows ?


You are right, they call it 'dwindling away' here, but it's just the same.
- I prefer to call a spade a spade, if you know what I mean.


There is no such thing as BigEco, the billion dollar industry is the one that sells the pesticides.

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## Jon

Winter dwindle has been reported for centuries though, before CCD, before neonicotinoids, before any pesticides for that matter.
It can be caused by varroa mite, tracheal mite, nosema apis, nosema ceranae, queen failure, inbreeding, weather related factors, poor nutrition in the build up to winter, and/or virus. take your pick.

Claiming that most cases of dwindle we see today are CCD is a tad disingenuous to say the least when there is nothing more than a personal opinion proffered - and diagnosis is carried out over the internet in most cases.

Even in the US where CCD has actually been recorded many cases of dwindle are likely to have other explanations.

CCD has been found in areas of pesticide use and in areas with little or no pesticide use such as Dee Lusby's 'organic' beekeeping operation in the Southern US.

Noone has demonstrated any correlation between areas where neonicotinoids are used and areas where CCD occurs.
In fact, there appears to be no correlation at all.
That's not to say there are no dangers associated with neonicotinoid pesticides - clearly there are risks, but there is no correlation at all with CCD.

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## drumgerry

> After all you are in the East, which was significantly harder hit with colony losses this winter.


Doris - I'm in the "east" as well and haven't lost a colony.  Makes a nonsense of the arbitrary division of Scotland in this way.

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## Stromnessbees

> ...
> Noone has demonstrated any correlation between areas where neonicotinoids are used and areas where CCD occurs.
> ...


Not true, here is one of the scientific studies that show the correlation:



*Detection of Pesticides in Active and Depopulated Beehives in Uruguay*

Lucía Pareja,1 Marcos Colazzo,1 Andrés Pérez-Parada,1 Silvina Niell,1,2 Leonidas Carrasco-Letelier,3 Natalia Besil,1 María Verónica Cesio,1 and  Horacio Heinzen1,*

During the last fifteen years, a *continued depopulation of  beehives* has been reported in USA, Italy, France and Spain and other  countries. This phenomenon which is characterized by bees suddenly  abandoning beehives, with evidence of bee death, *is called Colony  Collapse Disorder (CCD) in the United States.* ...

...

*The  colony collapse disorder (CCD) has been reported in areas where  intensive agricultural practices constitute the main economic activity.*  Particularly in Uruguay, *continuous beehives losses were recorded since  2002.* After this first event, a monitoring program has been established  showing that the major losses occurred *in regions where soy and  sunflower crops are the most important agricultural activities* during  summer
...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210585/

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## Stromnessbees

> Winter dwindle has been reported for centuries though, before CCD, before neonicotinoids, before any pesticides for that matter.


No, sudden winter dwindle of previously strong colonies is a new phenomenon.

The affected American beekeepers certainly said, that they had never seen anything like it before. 
That's why CCD caused such an outcry.

I would encourage all beekeepers who have had sudden dwindling in their colonies this winter to contact me by pm.

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## Jon

What do you mean by sudden dwindle? Over what time period?

Are there no references correlating CCD with neonicotinoid use in the US? Surely that would be more obvious given that the US is where most cases of CCD have been reported.

It would be the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate given that we know geographically where cases of CCD occur and geographically where pesticides are applied.
There is no correlation.

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## Stromnessbees

> What do you mean by sudden dwindle? Over what time period?
> 
> Are there no references correlating CCD with neonicotinoid use in the US? Surely that would be more obvious given that the US is where most cases of CCD have been reported.
> 
> It would be the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate given that we know geographically where cases of CCD occur and geographically where pesticides are applied.
> *There is no correlation*.


Sudden dwindle: over a few weeks, usually late autumn or winter. 


Of course the correlation has been shown for the USA as well:

From the excellent book _A Spring without bees_ by Michael Schacker, page 260 :



http://www.amazon.com/Spring-without.../dp/B0058M8WSW

I recommend you get the book, it's only £ 5, so there's no excuse for not reading it.

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## chris

> a monitoring program has been established  showing that the major losses occurred *in regions where soy and  sunflower crops are the most important agricultural activities* during  summer
> ...
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3210585/


Interesting Doris. I know nothing about soy, but have just dug out a Swiss paper on sunflowers.The summary states: 

"Influence of sunflower crops on bee colonies development.
In Switzerland, sunflower cultivation extends since the nineties and nowadays reaches
about 5000 ha. *The sunflower seeds are not treated with insecticides (imidacloprid,
fipronil) but despite that, Swiss beekeepers are complaining about colony losses if the
hives are placed close enough to fields of blooming sunflower*. A two-years trial was
carried out in order to find out whether sunflower by itself was detrimental for bees or
caused any colony damages. Results show that foraging of sunflower has no adverse
effect on bee populations neither during blooming period or within the next following
months. Sunflowers didnt have any impact on bee losses during winter. Bees were foraging
intensively on sunflowers but the nectar quantity collected was small or nought.
During a few days after the migration to the sunflower fields, bees were collecting
sunflower pollen but opted soon for other pollen sources such as maize and clover."

But I'm going off subject.

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## Jon

Doris
How does a table showing states with CCD reported in 2006 demonstrate a correlation with current use of neonicotinoids? That's just a list of states where CCD was reported in 2006.
How would you separate out any correlation between CCD and monoculture or intensive agriculture as opposed to an association with neonicotinoids.

This was also the problem with the Connolly study. A whole stack of other variables which were not eliminated.




> The sunflower seeds are not treated with insecticides (imidacloprid,
> fipronil) but despite that, Swiss beekeepers are complaining about colony losses if the
> hives are placed close enough to fields of blooming sunflower.


Chris
I was at a presentation on Friday evening by Pam Hunter on the importance of pollen and she mentioned that bees which took pollen from sunflowers lived on average 31 days as opposed to 51 days for bees on other sources of pollen. I don't have a reference but will do a bit of googling.

EDIT.
This must be where she got the reference.
L.S.Schmidt et al, Feeding preference and survival of young worker honey bees fed rape, sesame and sunflower pollen. J. of Econ. Entom. 88(6):1591-1595 (1995).




> 1995 study4 divided bees into two groups: one fed solely with canola pollen, the other with sunflower pollen:
> 
> Pollen Source Life Span of Bees
> 
> Canola 51 days
> 
> Sunflower 31 days
> 
> This study was done well before the advent of CCD and the remarkable 20 day difference in life span could well cause sunflower bees that survived in past years to reach a tipping point in today’s world where they are confronted with the agents of CCD.


From the USDA



> Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) is a serious problem threatening the health of honey bees and the economic stability of commercial beekeeping and pollination operations in the United States. Despite a number of claims in the general and scientific media, a cause or causes of CCD have not been identified by researchers.





> Several studies that reported a negative impact on honey bees by neonicotinoids relied on large, unrealistic doses and gave bees no other choice for pollen, and therefore did not reflect risk to honey bees under real world conditions. Nor have the studies demonstrated a direct connection or correlation to CCD.


At a personal level, a few years ago I had a double brood colony crash from maybe 40,000 bees to 2 frames of bees in about 3 weeks. It had got to the brink of starvation and although it took down a lot of syrup the stress brought on (I suspect) nosema.

In the winter it is not unusual at all to have a small colony crash from 3 frames of bees to a little cluster of a couple of hundred over a 3 week period. This coincides with the die off of old bees. This is quite common and always had been but it is not CCD. I have lost several nucs like this this winter. No mystery at all.

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## Neils

So states with no or limited commercial, migratory beekeeping aren't reporting CCD is the main conclusion I draw from that table.

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## Stromnessbees

> ...
> *The sunflower seeds are not treated with insecticides (imidacloprid, fipronil)*
> ...
> *Results show that foraging of sunflower has no adverse effect on bee populations neither during blooming period or within the next following months.* 
> ...


Well, it says it clearly there: in sthe sudy they used no insecticides and there were no adverse effects. 

I thought you were trying to say the opposite. 

Maybe the fields that the beekeepers complained about had actually been treated.


Would you be so kind to provide the link please, so that everybody can have a look at it?

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## drumgerry

Just been reading the March 2013 issue of the ABJ where there is a report on the findings  by Henderson, Bromenshenk and Fischer on Clothiandin levels in bee-collected pollen and nectar in seed treated corn and canola/OSR - tests carried out during 2010 and 2011.

Seed treatment was at the standard levels used in agriculture in the US (0.5mg/seed) up to the maximum permitted level (1.25mg/seed).  In corn the mean level found was 1.2ppb and in canola the mean level was 2ppb or less. Levels, they say, not expected to pose a significant risk to honey bee colonies.  I think you'll have to look elsewhere for your smoking gun when it come to CCD Doris.

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## Stromnessbees

> ...
> From the USDA
> ...


The USDA is another one of those agencies that suffer from 'revolving doors':

Employees of the pesticide corporations work for a few years in senior positions at USDA an then go 'home' again.

You can't expect genuine results as long as such malpractice is allowed. 

 :Frown:

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## Stromnessbees

> So states with no or limited commercial, migratory beekeeping aren't reporting CCD is the main conclusion I draw from that table.


I would recommend you read the book, rather than trying to interpret a single table on its own. 
Maybe things will become a lot clearer to you then.

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## Jon

> The USDA is another one of those agencies that suffer from 'revolving doors':
> 
> Employees of the pesticide corporations work for a few years in senior positions at USDA an then go 'home' again.
> 
> You can't expect genuine results as long as such malpractice is allowed.


The conspiracy as the last resort = no valid argument.

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## Trog

Our bees have no access to commercial crops so no access to neonics, nor do they have varroa.  I have had a huge, prosperous colony collapse completely in a matter of a couple of weeks due to acarine.  This was last autumn.

I also lost a complete colony this November (double brood, four full supers for three summers in a row - unusual for here) due to unsuccessful supersedure in August.  I can blame an extra-long autumn holiday and weather on return too poor for proper inspection of brood boxes for this mishap. However, claiming CCD might cover up what was, in essence, poor beekeeping on my part.  I read the signs, understood the signs, but was just too busy with other things to do anything about it.

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## Jon

In post 29 I listed about 10 factors which are known to cause dwindle or collapse, sometimes quite quickly.
Calling any dwindle or collapse CCD without clear evidence makes no sense especially as these things have been happening for decades before neonicotinoids were around.

It should be the easiest thing in the world to demonstrate.

Neoticotinoids used in an area = possibility of CCD in that area.
No neonicotinoids used in an area = no possibility of CCD

Yet we get neonicotinoid areas without CCD and neonicotinoid free areas with CCD present. I cited Dee Lusby's organic operation earlier.

Australia uses neonicotinoids and does not have CCD.
Australia has no varroa though.

What is happening here is that Doris is using dwindle as a synonym of CCD and that is not a valid position to take imho.

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## Stromnessbees

> Just been reading the March 2013 issue of the ABJ where there is a report on the findings  by Henderson, *Bromenshenk* and Fischer on Clothiandin levels in bee-collected pollen and nectar in seed treated corn and canola/OSR - tests carried out during 2010 and 2011.


Unfortunately Mr. Bromenshenk is one of those scientist who has taken the pesticide industry's shilling, and worse, he forgot to mention it when he went public with his research:


*What a scientist didn't tell the New York Times about his study on bee deaths* 

...
What the _Times_ article did not explore -- nor did the study  disclose -- was* the relationship between the study's lead author,  Montana bee researcher Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk, and Bayer Crop Science*. In  recent years Bromenshenk has received a significant research grant from  Bayer to study bee pollination. Indeed, before receiving the Bayer  funding, Bromenshenk was lined up on the opposite side: He had signed on  to serve as an expert witness for beekeepers who brought a class-action  lawsuit against Bayer in 2003. He then dropped out and received the  grant.

Bromenshenk's  company, Bee Alert Technology, which is developing hand-held acoustic  scanners that use sound to detect various bee ailments, *will profit more  from a finding that disease, and not pesticides, is harming bees*. Two  years ago Bromenshenk acknowledged as much to me when I was reporting on  the possible neonicotinoid/CCD connection for _Conde Nast Portfolio_ magazine, which folded before I completed my reporting.
...

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/08/news...tune/index.htm

----------


## Jon

That article is a disgrace and Jerry Bromenshenk considered litigation at the time.
This tactic of starting a smear campaign against any scientist whose findings do not fit the campaigner's prejudice is an obnoxious tactic and a sign of a lost argument.
You started this same stuff last week on the US Beesource forum and got pulled up for it.

So how does this invalidate his work?
Are you suggesting the results are falsified?

----------


## gavin

As Administrator of this forum and responsible to the SBA Executive I just want to add to Jon's post.  That was an appalling smear and one I've said repeatedly I hope ended in court with the journalist responsible brought to account.  Jerry had a small contract with a breeding company with was subsequently bought by Bayer as I understand it.

It is madness to persist in this character assassination whenever someone says (or in Jerry's case publishes) something that isn't on message as far as the pesticide zealots are concerned.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> That article is a disgrace and Jerry Bromenshenk considered litigation at the time.
> ...
> Are you suggesting the results are falsified?



Bromenshenk obviously chose not to go for litigation as the claims of failure to disclose were correct. 

In his research he 'discovered' that some iridovirus was behind CCD, a claim which couldn't be verified by anybody else and the idea was soon dropped. 

I have no idea how he came to his conclusions.

----------


## gavin

> I have no idea how he came to his conclusions.


The technology wasn't that hard to understand.

We previously discussed this paper here, and although the excitement of having fully explained CCD now seems inappropriate, it was an interesting thread.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-CCD-explained

Buried in there we have Doris saying this:




> Hi Jon
> 
> I agree with you that there seems to be no link between pesticides and CCD.

----------


## Jon

I don't think the iridovirus is likely to have much to do with CCD either as subsequent research found problems with his methodology but that is no excuse to start the smears against people who hold views different from your own.

If you want to debate the issue you need to leave behind the smears and the conspiracy.
Biobees welcomes conspiracy according to the site owner so maybe you could save it for that audience many of whom are quite happy to listen to unsubstantiated claims. Most places have a requirement for evidence.

If you want to convince people you have to put together a cogent argument rather than resorting to abuse.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Buried in there we have Doris saying this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by *Stromnessbees*  
> 
>  Hi Jon I agree with you that there seems to be no link between pesticides and CCD.


That quote is from 2010!

Yes, all the misinformation that was spread on the internet gave me the impression that there is no link between CCD and pesticides. 

I had only just gotten back into beekeeping and was not very familiar with the topic yet.

Having seen CCD repeatedly with my own eyes since and having read lots of scientific studies about it I have come to a very different conclusion, though.

----------


## Jon

Where have you seen it repeatedly since? On Orkney?

----------


## drumgerry

Didn't realise CCD was such a problem on Orkney Doris!!  Or are you saying you've seen what you've been told is CCD after the event in places other than Orkney?

----------


## Jon

I am assuming that 'repeatedly' is more than that blurry photo of a small dead cluster from the last trip to Austria.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Where have you seen it repeatedly since? On Orkney?


Jon, you don't need to pretend that you don't know what I am talking about.
I have written about my experiences many times, including on this forum.
*
All I want is that beekeepers start to think for themselves, and they will soon see through the deception.*


I haven't seen Gavin's account of his colony losses yet ...

----------


## drumgerry

I think as a species beekeepers are probably the most independent thinking group I've ever come across so no need for the patronising statement that beekeepers don't think for themselves.  As to "the deception" - do you realise how that sounds Doris?  Like the worst kind of paranoia.  Who's deceiving us?  I think you are trying really hard to.  I don't think anyone else is.

And please humour *me* by describing your Orcadian experience of CCD - it wasn't just Jon who asked.

----------


## Calum

Hi
my 0,02€ my losses this year were 1 from 27. I am situated right in the middle of a intensly farmed area, that includes plenty of treated maise.
My beekeeper next door lost 20 from 40 colonies. He taught me how to beekeep. The differences in losses are clearly not statistically correlatable. So it is not something caused by the environemt, but caused by something we have done differently. So far the only difference we could find is that he started varroa treatment a week later. 

Doris, pesticides are not great, but the ones today are better than many from yesteryear, you would get your point far better across if you were less hysterical about it. Daten Fakten Zahlen. Data, facts, numbers.

----------


## gavin

> Getting back on topic:
> Gavin, I hear you had some colony losses yourself this winter.
> 
> Would you mind telling us what exactly happened, your varroa control, proximity to neonic treated OSR, etc? - After all you are in the East, which was significantly harder hit with colony losses this winter.


Doris, I don't see why my winter losses are 'on topic' in a thread about one Scottish MEP joining the anti-neonic bandwagon.  However ....

Seven colonies of viable size (6-12 frames bees) going into winter, at the moment six are bringing in pollen and one is pushing up daisies.  That one had declining strength early in the winter.  A queen problem seems likely given the atrocious queen mating weather we had here with, as far as I recall, only one iffy three-day weather window to let them get airborne.

One further small colony rescued from a friend.  Serious Varroa problem and after treatment it was down to two frames of bees, not a viable size for winter. It was the first to go.  My own Varroa control was winter oxalic and summer Apiguard and number were fairly low through the summer.  OSR is in the arable land around the estate where I keep my bees and bees accessed it on the better days in May.  In previous years they have had better weather in May and have made better use of it - and thrived on it.

See any neonic issues there?  I don't.

The association's bees?  Again we had dreadful queen mating.  The stronger colonies going into winter were fine, and the small nucs which were always going to be a big risk have had some losses. 

All colonies behaved normally when the OSR was flowering.  

The story is that if you are on top of Varroa and if you feed your bees at critical times when they need it, losses are low.  A bit higher than low when the previous season's queen mating was poor.  If you are not alert to the problems through the active season, you lose more colonies.  If you give poor advice on controlling Varroa to the beekeepers in an area, you get higher losses locally.  If you live in a Varroa-free area, your losses are generally lower.  If you gather up inexperienced volunteers in an area where people are being given poor advice on controlling Varroa, you record higher losses there.

----------


## Jon

> Jon, you don't need to pretend that you don't know what I am talking about.
> I have written about my experiences many times, including on this forum.
> [B]
> ...


Hi Doris. I am having difficulty sifting through this stuff.
On the one hand you say you changed your views on CCD since 2010 as you had 'just got back into beekeeping'. Elsewhere you describe yourself as a 'very experienced' beekeeper. You also claim to have seen CCD 'repeatedly'.
You live on an Island with no varroa mite and presumably no CCD.
I imagine there is little or no neonicotinoid use apart from a minimal amount used in garden products or for killing the fleas on the dog.
There seems to be a contradiction here.
Are you actually aware of the patterns of colony losses associated with varroa and have you got years of experience quantifying mite levels, virus levels, percentage of infected pupae, living with varroa through the 12 months of the bee season, treating varroa at key times and selecting the most appropriate treatment?
The pictures you post from time to time just look like classic varroa death colonies for the most part.
Same goes for the you tube links you highlight from time to time.
Even in the US the vast majority of colony losses do not fit the pattern of CCD.

If you set yourself up as a leader and interpreter of data you really do need the experience to back it up.
Maybe you have the experience but it is not clear where and when you might have picked it up.
How many years have you actually managed colonies of bees with a mite population on an ongoing basis?
I thought you had lived in Orkney for about 20 years.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> ...
> If you set yourself up as a leader and interpreter of data you really do need the experience to back it up.
> Maybe you have the experience but it is not clear where and when you might have picked it up.
> How many years have you actually managed colonies of bees with a mite population on an ongoing basis?
> I thought you had lived in Orkney for about 20 years.


Don't worry, I have plenty of beekeeping experience with varroa and without. 

I started keeping bees when I turned 20 while I studied Biology in *Austria.* I attended courses and met regularly with the local beekeepers for joined sessions. 
Varroa was already widespread, but those who treated for it had no problem and It was only very neglected colonies that would be lost to it, always a very obvious affair with varroa all over the bees and brood as well as deformed wings on a proportion of the bees.

I kept an average of 6 to 8 hives for 6 years and never lost a colony to a disease. 
Neither did the other beekeepers around me who looked after their hives. 

After moving to *Orkney* I was given a varroa free colony which thrived more or less on its own for many years, but I moved from one island to another and had to leave it behind.

Later I joined *Bees Abroad and traveled to Africa* several times, helping the local population to set up sustainable beekeeping projects. 
Btw, I found varroa mites in Ghana, but the bees there were still thriving despite them.

In the end I decided to get bees again at home.

After I started again in Stromness, I joined *the internet beekeeping community.* 
Here I found a completely different world of beekeepers which is very divided, and the ones that are most active online are representing opinions that I had never experienced from beekeepers before, like defending the use of a particular group of pesticides and defending GMOs.

Not being a luddite I have treated sheep, dogs and horses with the odd wormer when it seemed necessary.
So I got on with learning all about the British and American way of keeping bees, ignoring the pesticide issue initially, visiting beekeeping friends around the country and looking at hives with them. I noticed the strange problems they had down in England, but I had no answers. 

But a visit to Austria, where an apiary that was only a stone-throw from where my own one had been, was wiped out completely, made me research the topic thoroughly. 

Everything there was still the way it had always been, but the bees had disappeared, and left a picture of *classic CCD* behind, with small dead clusters including queen amongst plenty of stores, some colonies with remnants of brood and some without. 

The only change had been that the maize that was routinely grown in small fields in the area was now treated with *Clothianidin*.

This was leftover seed that had been sold over the border from Germany, where it had been banned after causing massive colony losses there. 

I gave at talk at a beekeepers' convention and met many other experienced beekeepers who had lost their apiaries as well at the same time and under the same circumstances. 


Now that I was more familiar with the topic I realized, that ailing colonies which I had seen at apiaries in England were suffering form the same problem, although the *damage from Imidacloprid seemed less severe than the one form Clothianidin*, showing itself more in queen problems and colonies stopping to feed at the end of winter, leading to partial apiary losses. 


Here in Orkney bees thrive but produce little honey due to the harsh climate.
We don't have varroa, we don't have CCD or 'dwindling disease' and we don't have neonicotinoids in the forage. 
As I explained, I know how to check for varroa damage, and the CCD colonies I saw clearly looked very different from that.
A* 'dwindling disease' without obvious other signs* had not been recorded before, and I am convinced that the term is used to mask losses to neonics.

----------


## Jon

Hi Doris
But seriously, a small cluster with a queen in it can have many different explanations such as those I mentioned in post 29 and is not necessarily CCD even in the US.
I think you are underestimating the problems with varroa and more especially the viruses associated with it which are not the same as 20 years ago. The virus landscape changes all the time.
The Martin et al paper we discussed last year describes how the strains of DWV change after the arrival of varroa mite.
It really is quite a common thing to find a colony which has dwindled in springtime.
Classic CCD is usually associated with autumn dwindle.
The pictures and videos you have posted here and elsewhere seem to me to show colonies with varroa damage.
And that's not just my opinion. They generated the same response on Beekeeping forum and on Beesource.




> Here I found a completely different world of beekeepers which is very divided, and the ones that are most active online are representing opinions that I had never experienced from beekeepers before, like defending the use of a particular group of pesticides and defending GMOs.


Yes there is division over what is best for bees but there is no bad faith here, no conspiracy, no lobby, no shills involved. What you have is people who want the best for their bees and this involves real world choices which translates to the use of one pesticide over another. I would prefer a non pesticide solution to modern agriculture but I don't see where that can come from in the short to medium term. 

If neonicotinoid pesticides are banned, I do not think that would necessarily improve the wellbeing of honeybees, as my personal opinion is that the greater problem is to do with habitat, forage and monoculture and monoculture is likely to continue with or without neonicotinoid pesticides.
Most likely there will be no real change as that seems to be what has happened elsewhere when these products have been withdrawn.
The potential loss of Oil Seed Rape will be very detrimental to bees if farmers elect to grow alternate crops.
Bees forage on seed treated oil seed rape over millions of hectares world wide and beekeepers are still moving their bees to it and they don't report problems. Quite the opposite. The problem with this crop is during seed drilling with poor control of the planter dust.

I would like to see neonicotinoids, and any pesticides in fact, very strictly monitored and regulated.
I think we can all agree there are gaps to be filled especially with regard to the effect on pollinators other than honeybees.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> I think you are underestimating the problems with varroa and more especially the viruses associated with it which are not the same as 20 years ago. The virus landscape changes all the time.
> The Martin et al paper we discussed last year describes how the strains of DWV change after the arrival of varroa mite.


I know that in my hometown the first occurrences of CCD happened in the winter after the introduction of Clothianidin treated maize.

It would be a very strange coincidence if a virus had spread at the very same time, wiping out so many colonies, all in proximity to the neonic treated maize fields.


I encourage all beekeepers who have lost hives to 'dwindling' to talk to their beekeeping neighbours about it and to check for possible sources of neonics in crops, orchards, parks and golf courses nearby.
*
To test a colony you need to send wax (ideally cappings from leftover food), pollen and propolis* rather than bees, as this increases the chance of detection. 
Keep the samples in the dark, as the pesticides deteriorate in sunlight.

----------


## Jon

That's a good idea as without proper checking it is just so much speculation.

Mind you the situation in Austria is reported to be much better this winter even though Clothianidin is still in use.
You get a lot of year on year differences in beekeeping as there are so many variables in play.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> That's a good idea as without proper checking it is just so much speculation.
> 
> Mind you the situation in Austria is reported to be much better this winter even though Clothianidin is still in use.
> You get a lot of year on year differences in beekeeping as there are so many variables in play.


Yes, I heard the slight improvement came from farmers choosing untreated maize seed last year in order to help the bees.
Everything can get better once the correct information is out and more people are willing to cooperate.

But the bigger agro conglomerates don't work like that,* that's why we need a ban*, in order to help bees all around Europe.

----------


## Calum

> Yes, I heard the slight improvement came from farmers choosing untreated maize seed last year in order to help the bees.
> Everything can get better once the correct information is out and more people are willing to cooperate.
> 
> But the bigger agro conglomerates don't work like that,* that's why we need a ban*, in order to help bees all around Europe.


Hi Doris,
I never heard that, whats your source of information? 
Also if true it should cause a massive improvement I'd have thought (assuming thats the prime problem). 
However the reported reductions in insect numbers overall is worrying. This is certainly affected by the reduction in biodiversity, changing weather patterns and pollution (which almost certainly includes pesticides).

----------


## madasafish

> Hi Doris,
> I This is certainly affected by the reduction in biodiversity, changing weather patterns and pollution (which almost certainly includes pesticides).


Also affecting birds: specifically sparrows.. Lack of food for young. And lack of suitable nesting habitat. Allegedly (BBC Gardening Mag read in library) there are more sparrows around in the less well off places in towns and cities due to neglected areas having more nesting places and vegetation suitable for insects.

Believeable as many people use decking and preserve it every year ... and use bought plants -often double flowers.. and strim and cut grass to death.


We always have a wonderful display of midges in evening - numbers increased markedly last year with the wet "summer".  But then we border fields full of cows and have borders which are run as semi jungles with creeping flowering plants... and use no pesticides.. and have used none for over two decades...


(we also have 5 active colonies of sparrows in our eaves)...


If campaigners against neonics concentrating on persuading (NOTE: choice of word)  gardeners to create insect friendly gardens  and stopped magaphone posts on specialist websites where everyone is in favour of insect preservation...

But hey...

----------


## Black Comb

Doris
Have you researched nosema ceranae?
Have a look at this
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0043319

----------


## Stromnessbees

> I never heard that, whats your source of information? 
> Also if true it should cause a massive improvement I'd have thought (assuming thats the prime problem). 
> However the reported reductions in insect numbers overall is worrying. This is certainly affected by the reduction in biodiversity, changing weather patterns and pollution (which almost certainly includes pesticides).


I am in touch with several beekeepers in Austria, and I am a member of the German Beekeeping forum, which is very switched on about the matter.

As I say, there are some farmers who made an effort to use untreated seed, and in those areas the situation has somewhat improved, although it does take a while to get the toxins out of the soil system.

Btw, the total number of colony losses this winter has not been recorded yet, so we need to wait and see.

One reason for fewer losses might unfortunately be the fact, that many beekeepers who lost their whole apiary to these pesticides, decided not to restock and gave up, leaving empty beehouses all over the valley. 

 :Frown:

----------


## Jon

> One reason for fewer losses might unfortunately be the fact, that many beekeepers who lost their whole apiary to these pesticides, decided not to restock and gave up, leaving empty beehouses all over the valley.


Reference? Evidence? Or is that pure speculation on your part? I dare say in Austria they are familiar with record keeping.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Reference? Evidence? Or is that pure speculation on your part? I dare say in Austria they are familiar with record keeping.


I'll try to get you something, but it might take a while. 

In the meantime some wonderful pictures from home.

In the middle of the video they mention that they are worried about the bee deaths (Bienensterben), at 1:35 they show a picture of a typical small cluster that's left when a colony has died from CCD!

They are way up the mountain, but are still planning to go organic (Bio) to avoid problems.

----------


## Jon

The reference I posted for you over on beesource indicated that Austria has had quite severe winter losses a couple of times recently without invoking neonicotinoid pesticides to explain it.




> Heavy colony-losses during the winters 2002/2003 and 2003/2004, as well as bees showing unusual behaviour raised the question whether virus infections may be involved in these conditions.


Virus was implicated in these previous two die offs.

I am not saying you are definitely wrong but I am trying to point out that there are many possible explanations for winter losses involving small clusters.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Virus was implicated in these previous two die offs.


If a study looks only for viruses it will find only viruses, see the title:


*Prevalence of six honey bee viruses in Austrian beecolonies with disease symptoms*

They only took samples from dwindling hives, there's no comparison with healthy ones, which might have had just as many viruses.




> *I am not saying you are definitely wrong* but I am trying to point out that there are many possible explanations for winter losses involving small clusters.


I would hope so. These Austrian beekeepers know what they are talking about, and it's not so easy to pull the wool over their eyes. 


Jon, why don't you just show me a virus that creates symptoms similar to CCD?

----------


## Jon

With many bee stressors such as virus, nosema, poor nutrition, varroa, acarine, the end result is a small cluster and ultimately death, usually due to freezing or isolation starvation.  I am not denying for a minute that pesticide poisoning can kill a colony but without access to the data all this stuff you are posting about neonicotinoids producing CCD is just pure speculation. A small cluster with a queen is not CCD. You are the only person defining it in that way.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> With many bee stressors such as virus, nosema, poor nutrition, varroa, acarine, the end result is a small cluster and ultimately death, usually due to freezing or isolation starvation.  I am not denying for a minute that pesticide poisoning can kill a colony but without access to the data all this stuff you are posting about neonicotinoids producing CCD is just pure speculation. A small cluster with a queen is not CCD. You are the only person defining it in that way.


I think it's my turn to ask for evidence.

Show me exactly where it says that a virus, nosema or whatever causes colonies to dwindle away suddenly in winter, leaving just a small cluster.

----------


## Jon

That much is common knowledge and any beekeeper will have seen it many times.
Dwindle can happen any time of year but is much more common in winter as anything which compromises the longevity of the bees is likely to have serious consequences for the survival of the colony.
Winter bees have to live for 5 or 6 months unlike summer bees which are not expected to live much more than 6 weeks.
If they live for only 3 or 4 months on average the colony will shrink rapidly in January or February.
The most common form of winter deadout in my experience is a small cluster usually with a queen.
I have seen this over the years in my own bees when I have lost colonies over winter.
Normally it is only one or two.
The main exception would be a bigger colony which starved due to lack of stores.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> That much is common knowledge and any beekeeper will have seen it many times.
> Dwindle can happen any time of year but is much more common in winter as anything which compromises the longevity of the bees is likely to have serious consequences for the survival of the colony.
> Winter bees have to live for 5 or 6 months unlike summer bees which are not expected to live much more than 6 weeks.
> If they live for only 3 or 4 months on average the colony will shrink rapidly in January or February.
> The most common form of winter deadout in my experience is a small cluster usually with a queen.
> I have seen this over the years in my own bees when I have lost colonies over winter.
> Normally it is only one or two.
> The main exception would be a bigger colony which starved due to lack of stores.



If it is 'common knowledge' then you should not have a problem to provide a verifiable source for that information.
Please try again.

----------


## Bumble

From Conway Beekeepers. Not exactly the same as Jon said, but still comes under "Common knowledge", I think. 


> The main causes of winter losses are queenless colonies, starvation, varroa and damp in the hives. All of these are within your control. Your bees are a valuable asset, and they deserve your best attention. Bees first, holiday second! You should aim to lose no more than one hive in 10 in winter.


http://www.conwybeekeepers.org.uk/ne...es-for-winter/

----------


## Stromnessbees

> From Conway Beekeepers. Not exactly the same as Jon said, but still comes under "Common knowledge", I think. 
> http://www.conwybeekeepers.org.uk/ne...es-for-winter/


I can't see anything about sudden dwindling and tiny clusters there.

Try again, please.

----------


## Jon

Google is your friend.



RHC



> Diseases: Honeybees and their larvae are affected by many diseases caused by bacteria, fungi and viruses. Research has shown a link between certain bee viruses, Varroa and colony decline. The mite can transmit some viruses within the colony and increase the rate of infection compared to hives that are mite-free. Some mite-transmitted viruses, such as deformed wing virus, acute paralysis virus, slow paralysis virus and cloudy wing virus, weaken honeybee colonies by reducing the longevity of adult honeybees.


Fera document:
The importance of preparing colonies to enter the winter in a healthy state, with an
adequate supply of young healthy bees and stores, cannot be over-emphasised.



> a colony overwintered in good condition
> ensures that it is fit for purpose in the following spring. Recent winter colony loss
> investigations, both in the UK and across Europe, have clearly shown links
> between dead colonies and the viruses, particularly deformed wing virus, which
> are associated with varroa infestations. This highlights the importance of effective
> and timely varroa control.


Capa statement on honey bee losses in canada



> For Canadian beekeepers experiencing the highest levels of loss, a number of common factors
> were reported by extension professionals. A consistent theme, particularly on the prairies, was the
> exceptionally cold and in many cases rainy weather during spring 2011 which contributed to
> increased dwindling and loss of colonies that emerged from winter.


Underwood and Engelsdorp




> In this paper we briefly review the past
> history of colony collapses that are reminiscent of the present situation.
> The first published record of this disorder appeared in 1869.


And so on and so on. There are many references which link winter dwindle to multiple factors/stressors and most beekeepers will have seen this for themselves on occasion. I certainly have. May be different where there is no varroa and associated virus.

Acarine




> Symptoms of Infection
> Acarine disease is a winter problem. The effects of the disease are seen in
> early spring when the colony population consists of mainly older bees. It is
> merely the old and heavily affected bees that are killed. Bee colonies rarely
> show signs of infestation in summer or autumn. It is difficult to detect the
> disease when the infestation is light or in its early stages. The symptoms of
> heavy infestation include:
> • Colonies die or have a dwindling population in late winter and spring.


Virus and dwindle




> Apiculturists have recently been confronted with drastic and inexplicable winter losses of colonies, and virus infections may be involved. Here, we surveyed 337 Swiss honey bee colonies in the winter of 2005 and 2006 and categorized their health status as: 1. dead (= no or few live bees left); 2. weak (= dwindling, high mortality of adult bees); or 3. healthy (= normal overwintering colony). From each colony, pooled adult workers were analyzed for deformed wing virus (DWV), acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV), chronic bee paralysis virus (CBPV) and Kashmir bee virus(KBV). Neither KBV nor CBPV were found, but significantly higher ABPV and DWV infections were found in dead vs. weak vs. healthy colonies (except DWV in 2006 between weak and healthy). Moreover, ABPV and DWV loads were positively correlated with each other. This is the first report demonstrating statistically significant correlations between viruses associated with Varroa destructor and winter mortality.


EPA view on CCD (Includes mention of pesticides)




> Why it's happening
> 
> There have been many theories about the cause of CCD, but the researchers who are leading the effort to find out why are now focused on these factors:
> 
>     increased losses due to the invasive varroa mite (a pest of honeybees);
>     new or emerging diseases such as Israeli Acute Paralysis virus and the gut parasite Nosema;
>     pesticide poisoning through exposure to pesticides applied to crops or for in-hive insect or mite control;
>     bee management stress;
>     foraging habitat modification
> ...

----------


## Bumble

> From Conway Beekeepers. Not exactly the same as Jon said, but still comes under "Common knowledge", I think. 
> http://www.conwybeekeepers.org.uk/ne...es-for-winter/





> Try again, please.


Sorry, no. This is a place for discussion, it isn't a classroom.

Please don't tell me what to do.

----------


## Stromnessbees

Jon, your first two quotes make no mention of sudden dwindling and tiny clusters.

The third quote is very recent and those incidents might well have been linked to neonics!

No. four: to vaguely quote bee deaths in the past doesn't mean that they showed sudden dwindling and tiny clusters. 


A simple statement form a decent source that's more than 20 years old (*pre neonic*), which mentions *'sudden dwindling in winter'* and *'tiny cluster'* is what we are looking for.

----------


## Jon

Anything which compromises longevity produces a tiny cluster.

Check out the symptoms of acarine (trachael mite) in the link above.

The Swiss study categorised colonies in the study as 'dead' 'dwindle' or 'healthy'.

Seriously Doris, what you are calling CCD is simple winter Dwindle. It may be linked to pesticides in some cases, I don't dispute that, but it is not a new phenomenon. The Americans have a different definition of CCD and it is more than just dwindle and is more usually an autumn problem than a spring dwindle problem.

----------


## Stromnessbees

You added more ...

@ quote 5, acarine:

your quote was very selective, the full text says




> The symptoms of heavy infestation include: 
> 
> • Colonies die or have a dwindling population in late winter and spring. 
> 
> 
> • In cases of severe infestation, a large number of bees crawl about near the entrance of the hive unable to fly. This is seen when they attempt to fly when a warm day comes in late winter or early spring after the bees have been confined to the hive for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Acarine is very different from CCD, as you can see when you read all the bits which you omitted from the quote.

And surely all these bee experts with their microscopes would have found the mites.

----------


## Jon

Wilson, WT, and DM Menapace (1979) Disappearing disease of honey bees: A survey of the United States.  ABJ March 1979: 184-186.




> “In the case of [Disappearing Disease]… the colonies frequently have gone through a period of nectar and pollen collection with active brood rearing. Then the weather has turned unseasonably cool and damp and remained adverse for from about 3 to 14 days. Such a situation usually occurs in early spring. During the inclement weather, the bee populations dwindle because the worker bees disappear from the hive leaving a “handful” of bees and the queen.”


The point is, there are multiple explanations for finding a small clump of bees with a queen in it during springtime.
Pesticide poisoning could be one of them but to claim this is the only cause and to claim that this is 'CCD' is not accurate.

----------


## Stromnessbees

> Seriously Doris, what you are calling CCD is simple winter Dwindle. It may be linked to pesticides in some cases, I don't dispute that, but it is not a new phenomenon. The Americans have a different definition of CCD and it is more than just dwindle and is more usually an autumn problem than a spring dwindle problem.


Seriously, Jonathan, everybody who has seen CCD agrees that they have never seen anything like it before, for example:




> There are no bee bodies; they simply all disappear, all adult bees  are simply gone, sometimes leaving a queen and a few young hatched  workers.* This is unheard of*, since normally a bee colony will do almost  anything to protect its queen.
> 
> 
>  The hive is left intact, with capped cells of honey and bee bread.
> 
> 
> *Another unusual factor* is that bees sensing a dying colony nearby  aren’t going in right away and killing the other bees and robbing the  hive of honey, like they usually do for example when the bees have died  of parasites or disease.
> 
> 
> ...


http://blog.targethealth.com/?p=58

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## Stromnessbees

> Wilson, WT, and DM Menapace (1979) Disappearing disease of honey bees: A survey of the United States.  ABJ March 1979: 184-186.


This is a bit more like it, but doesn't apply to all the colonies lost during winter, which is typical for CCD.


I might look into this report some day, as I suspect that these events were related to some chemicals as well.

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## Jon

All I am saying is that there are multiple possible explanations for finding a small cluster with a queen in the springtime.
I am not suggesting that there is a single cause as you appear to be saying.
To argue that this is CCD and the cause has to be neonicotinoid pesticides is your pet theory and it is not backed by evidence.

Anyway, past my bedtime!

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## Stromnessbees

> All I am saying is that there are multiple possible explanations for finding a small cluster with a queen in the springtime.
> I am not suggesting that there is a single cause as you appear to be saying.
> To argue that this is CCD and the cause has to be neonicotinoid pesticides is your pet theory and it is not backed by evidence.
> 
> Anyway, past my bedtime!


I know for sure that where I lived in Austria it was completely unheard of, and that CCD appeared suddenly just after the introduction of clothianidin treated maize.

And if you look carefully in other areas, you will find very similar stories. 

Here's a beautiful film from Japan, for example, which tells the same story:

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## brothermoo

I have only ever seen this sudden leaving the hive and all its contents once... I was called about a "swarm" last summer which was massive and uncooperative  :Smile: 
A more experienced beekeeper was called in and it turned out that the colony had up and left everything from a nearby hive

Here's why: upon giving the bees it was evident that varroa where all over the bees, their reaction to the extent of the mite numbers was to flee

Good thing was now that they were broodless they could be treated and give them a chance of survival.
__________________
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## Calum

> I am in touch with several beekeepers in Austria, and I am a member of the German Beekeeping forum, which is very switched on about the matter.


A quick check of Landlive shows its not a hot topic at all. This is the most used site, what site are you referring to?



> As I say, there are some farmers who made an effort to use untreated seed, and in those areas the situation has somewhat improved, although it does take a while to get the toxins out of the soil system.


Any proof of that at all, or just anecdotal?



> One reason for fewer losses might unfortunately be the fact, that many beekeepers who lost their whole apiary to these pesticides, decided not to restock and gave up, leaving empty beehouses all over the valley.


Funny you mention that, our Fachwart for Bees in Bavaria is sure that people who are not able to keep their bees healthy are indeed giving up in frustration, those that keep their *varroa* under control remain and prosper. Natural selection of beekeepers. Your assertation that the loose their whole stock to pesticides is not supported by any data.

Pesticides: the best excuse for colony loss due to poor beekeeping practice since forever.

If you look at the beekeeping density (in our area of Lindau Stadt we have over 50 with more than 1000 colonies) and the patterns of loss (most loose less than 10% some few 50%) there cannot be poisoning going on.... This pattern repeats its self in most beekeeping clubs.

The percent reduction year on year in colony loss is probably much more to do with improved training of how to deal with Varroa and bad methods dying out with their beekeepers giving up.

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## brothermoo

Ps. Pesticides prob are factor across the world but irresponsible beekeeping is probably more of a factor.

things like:
-moving colonies up and down the country to different crops spreading different disease hasn't worked for the yanks
-not usi.g some form of treatment to diminish varroa
-importing foreign stock laced with new viruses for varroa to vector
__________________
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## Stromnessbees

> Pesticides: the best excuse for colony loss due to poor beekeeping practice since forever.
>  ...
> The percent reduction year on year in colony loss is probably much more to do with improved training of how to deal with Varroa and bad methods dying out with their beekeepers giving up.


Landlive is mainly for gardening and the green wellie brigade.

The big beekeeping forum is called *Imkerforum*, you will find lots of threads about neonics there, many going into hundreds of posts. 

Here one of the latest: http://www.imkerforum.de/showthread.php?t=32607 

*
If beekeeper failure is the main reason for losses, how can you explain that one of the UK's most prominent beekeepers, Roger Patterson, who teaches and lectures up and down the country, has lost half of his colonies this winter?* 

And I also remember that the guy who taught you lost half of his colonies, so are you still saying they have lost their skills?

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## brothermoo

Or maybe these guys have been too busy lecturing up and down the country it has been to the detriment of their bees?

Not that I claim to know! Each case should be considered for all factors rather than just blaming one factor for everything that is wrong

__________________
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## Jon

I think losses are going to be high this winter. They were low last winter.
Look at Murray McGregor's results last winter, losses around 5% over 2000 colonies.
They used neonicotinoids on the same areas in 2011 and 2012 but the colony losses in the subsequent winters are likely to be very different.
Don't you think other factors may be in play?
Nearly got the thread back on topic with that post.

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## Stromnessbees

> I think losses are going to be high this winter. They were low last winter.
> Look at Murray McGregor's results last winter, losses around 5% over 2000 colonies.
> They used neonicotinoids on the same areas in 2011 and 2012 but the colony losses in the subsequent winters are likely to be very different.
> Don't you think other factors may be in play?
> Nearly got the thread back on topic with that post.


I am very dubious about Murray McGregor's assessments. Whenever a colony perishes, he seems to call it a 'bog standard dead-out' without further discrimination. 
He also imports a lot of bees, some of them will be to counter the 'bog standard deadouts'.


Anyway, I re-read* chapter 9 'Pests and Diseases*_'_ of '_Guide to Bees and Honey'_ by Ted Hooper (1997) over night:

He gives very detailed accounts of all common and rare afflictions of bees in the UK, but 'sudden dwindling during winter leaving tiny clusters' is not mentioned at all!
If you claim that it has always been common then you'd better come up with a decent source for your statements.

*I encourage all beekeepers to check their books that pre-date neonics for such references.*

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## Black Comb

Try reading page 104.
This 1997 book does not even mention nosema ceranae. As I posted earlier, the circumstances you outlined in the time frame described would lead me to investigate this further.
Also, this winter seems to be bad for losses. Any correlation between banning of Fumidil B and this winter's losses? This is the first winter in the UK without.
It was banned in Europe several years ago.

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## Stromnessbees

> Try reading page 104.
> This 1997 book does not even mention nosema ceranae. As I posted earlier, the circumstances you outlined in the time frame described would lead me to investigate this further.
> Also, this winter seems to be bad for losses. Any correlation between banning of Fumidil B and this winter's losses? This is the first winter in the UK without.
> It was banned in Europe several years ago.


He doesn't mention anything on page 104 that's relevant to our debate. 

You seem to be claiming that nosema causes the symptoms of CCD. 

Can you please quote a reference to that?

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## madasafish

Let's see:
cold wet summer, bad queen mating, lots of late swarms..

Of course colony losses are likely to be high due to those causes alone.

And if you don't feed bees before winter and they cannoyt gather because of teh weather?

Occam's Razor.

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## Stromnessbees

> Let's see:
> cold wet summer, bad queen mating, lots of late swarms..
> 
> Of course colony losses are likely to be high due to those causes alone.
> 
> And if you don't feed bees before winter and they cannoyt gather because of teh weather?
> 
> Occam's Razor.


Colony Collapse Disorder has got a set of very distinctive characteristics.

Your vague list of adversities does not explain sudden dwindling etc. of previously strong colonies that showed no problems going into the winter.

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## Jon

> Colony Collapse Disorder has got a set of very distinctive characteristics.


Yes it has but not in the simple way you are claiming.
Here is info from MAAREC the main research group into CCD



> The Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium (MAAREC) is the current clearing house for CCD-based information produced by the CCD Working Group. Composed of scientists, beekeepers, industry, and government officials, the CCD Working Group has defined the symptoms of CCD colonies as follows:
> Collapsing Colonies
> 
>     An insufficient number of bees to maintain the amount of brood in the colony
>     A workforce composed largely of younger adult bees
>     The presence of a queen
>     The cluster's reluctance to consume food provided to them by the beekeeper
> 
> Collapsed Colonies
> ...


http://solutionsforyourlife.ufl.edu/..._disorder.html

The dwindle I see is with a rump of older bees which have a queen present. Often brood rearing has not even started up yet. Note the mention of 'over the past 50 or 60 years' and neonicotinoids have barely 20 in the marketplace.

The bees take feed as normal in the autumn.

Dead colonies get robbed out if they are not sealed up.

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## madasafish

"Your vague list of adversities does not explain sudden dwindling etc. of previously strong colonies that showed no problems going into the winter."

Vague?
A factually accurate description of last season's beekeeping for many.


I refuse to say any more.

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## Jon

More from MARREC




> The cause of CCD is currently under investigation. At this point, almost every possible and realistic cause remains a possibility. The following list of leading candidates--in no particular order--is not comprehensive and may change as new information becomes available. Such changes could result in the addition or exclusion of any of the following potential causes.
> 
> For more detailed information about each possible cause, see the original publication, Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) in Honey Bees.
> 
>     Traditional bee pests and diseases.
>     Most likely they are not responsible for CCD, as they do not have a history of producing those symptoms, but they may exacerbate the problem.
>     Bee management. Management style is a broad category, but it can include the type of income pursued with bees--honey production, pollination services--or the routine colony management that beekeepers perform--splitting hives, swarm control, chemical use.
>     Queen source. Lack of genetic diversity and lineage of bees--both related to queen quality--are being investigated as possible causes of CCD.
>     Chemical use in bee colonies. Chemicals used to control bee maladies have a variety of sub-lethal effects on all honey bees--workers, queens, and drones--even when the chemicals were used according to label and in accordance with best management practices suggested by specialists.
> ...

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## Stromnessbees

MAAREC ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

They can come up with as many Spindoctor organizations as they like, I know what I have seen and I have read the independent literature.

Especially in America the RDS - Revolving Door Syndrome - has distorted most of the 'research' and official output.

Beekeepers who have observed the developments over the last few years will see exactly what I am talking about and not accept the 'multifactorial everything-is-to-blame' version.

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## Jon

No answer = wheel out the same tired conspiracies.

LOL at 'spindoctor organizations'

Must be a first for Dennis Van Engelsdorp to be called a spindoctor.

Even Graham White described him as inspirational.

BBKA thread here

Maryann Frazier, another revolving door lackey obviously

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## Black Comb

Doris
you said
"A 'dwindling disease' without obvious other signs had not been recorded before, and I am convinced that the term is used to mask losses to neonics."

I suggested that in recent years nosema ceranae which has come to European and UK shores has exactly these symptoms and might be a reason. Of course you dismiss any other likelihood - tunnel vision? The banning of Fumidil B will only add to it's spread IMO. I gave you a reference showing it can be passed from bee to bee by trophallaxis.

Here is a further reference
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/bee...cfm?pageid=191
In part it says "In Spain it has been reported that N. ceranae infections are characterised by a progressive reduction in the number of bees in a colony until the point of collapse." Er, that fits my argument does it not?

For your info. page 104 he says " In my experience it is very rare to find colonies failing to develop properly which cannot be assigned to either "poor queen" or "nosemic" categories." Quoting a 1997 book which is clearly out of date on diseases does not add to your argument IMO.

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## Stromnessbees

> No answer = wheel out the same tired conspiracies.
> 
> LOL at 'spindoctor organizations'
> 
> Must be a first for Dennis Van Engelsdorp to be called a spindoctor.
> 
> Even Graham White described him as inspirational.
> 
> Maryann Frazier, another revolving door lackey obviously



Jonathan, you can't come up with any evidence that CCD symptoms can be considered 'normal'.

We are losing millions of colonies to this problem every year since the widespread use of neonics has started. 

I can't help it if those 'scientists' don't have the guts to write what's really going on. 

Anybody with a bit of healthy skepticism can see that the official narrative is flawed.

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## Stromnessbees

> In part it says "In Spain it has been reported that N. ceranae infections are characterised *by a progressive reduction* in the number of bees in a colony until the point of collapse." Er, that fits my argument does it not?


A progressive reduction is not what we see in CCD.
Nosema ceranae has long been dismissed as the cause of CCD.




> For your info. page 104 he says " In my experience *it is very rare to find colonies failing to develop properly which cannot be assigned to either "poor queen" or "nosemic" categories*." Quoting a 1997 book which is clearly out of date on diseases does not add to your argument IMO.


This is exactly my point!

Up to the time that this was written it was rare, but now we have millions of colonies die each year that haven't lost their queens and that don't fit the picture of nosema.

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## Black Comb

You conveniently ignore your previous quote which I reminded you of.
He doesn't say it was rare, he says it is rare to find dwindling colonies that have NOT died from these 2 causes.
Why won't you explore ALL possible reasons if you think it is a problem?
Why won't you consider nosema ceranae which has progressed in recent years and is one possible cause that displays the symptoms that you yourself posted?

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## madasafish

I don't know where these " millions of colonies die each year that haven't lost their queens and that don't fit the picture of nosema." come from.

They are obviously not the UK so Doris no doubt has chapter and verse on where they are and a list of symptoms.

Perhaps she could share it with us?

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## Stromnessbees

> You conveniently ignore your previous quote which I reminded you of.
> He doesn't say it was rare, he says it is rare to find dwindling colonies that have NOT died from these 2 causes.


As I said, I read all of Chapter 9. 
There he says it's rare to lose a colony to nosema, as the bees get over it on their own. 
He also says it's rare to lose a queen. 

*Ever since the widespread use of neonics started beekeeping has changed beyond recognition:*

Areas that used to be bee heavens are losing their bee populations fast, queen problems are rampant, and sudden die-offs, especially during winter, have become the norm.

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## madasafish

Ever since the advent of varroa, beekeeping has changed beyond recognition.
Fact.


But you never ever ascribe losses to it.

Strange that.

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## Black Comb

Yes but in those days they did NOT have nosema ceranae - do you acknowledge nosema ceranae exists?

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## madasafish

> Yes but in those days they did NOT have nosema ceranae - do you acknowledge nosema ceranae exists?




It's a FACT.

I don't have to "acknowledge" FACTS. They exist.They are verifiable.

Which is more than 95% of Doris's writing.

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## Black Comb

The question was to Doris not to you mad salmon.
Our posts crossed.

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## madasafish

> The question was to Doris not to you mad salmon.
> Our posts crossed.


oops sorry. Fish have limited thinking capacity.. like bears of little brain :Cool:

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## gavin

> Originally Posted by Some guy known for his rants on the Beekeeping and formerly the BBKA fora
> 
> (that guy) wrote:
> 
> ...
> I suspect that some of the "internet fora bully boys" are masons, so there's no doubt the "dark side" are at work
> ...
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps at this point I should let folk know that Randy Oliver, bless him, advocates using Mason jars for Varroa monitoring.  I guess he must be in the club (OK John, Craft ... see my inexperience in these matters!) too then.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/figh...mite-sampling/




> All jar sample numbers in this article assume a 300-bee sample (exactly 3/4 of bees in a quart Mason jarcount em once, and mark the jar).

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## Calum

ok, after winning  post of the year last year, I want it again this year.
Debate1.jpg
Yeah, I win.

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## wee willy

> Perhaps at this point I should let folk know that Randy Oliver, bless him, advocates using Mason jars for Varroa monitoring.  I guess he must be in the club too then.
> ]


PLEASE! The Craft !  :Big Grin: 
VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## drumgerry

Gavin I think I've seen it all now!  Masons!!  Too ridiculous.  Doris - care to explain yourself?

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## gavin

> Yeah, I win.


OK then, Post of the Year (for the day).

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## Jon

Hey don't knock that masonic thread on biobees. I just found it the other day and saw I got a name check.
Comedy gold does not appear before us every day so give thanks when you find a thread like that.
To be honest I don't think the Masons would have me as I am a vegetarian and you have to do something with a goat. So they say anyway, obviously I have never been in a Masonic Lodge. Oops, nearly gave the game away. Mentioned it once.
I reckon I could manage either a secret handshake or a funny walk with a reasonable amount of applomb but not the goat.

You have to feel for the couple of sensible posters on the thread who got shot down in flames for not sipping from the font of conspiracy.

And what about this Lodge. The pieces are starting to fall into place.

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## Calum

> OK then, Post of the Year (for the day).


also see my todays news post.
I'm here all night folks,  :Smile:

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## gavin

> also see my todays news post.
> I'm here all night folks,


If only you'd held off for a few hours you could have had two consecutive Posts of the Year (for the day).

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## gavin

I thought that you were a dab hand with donkeys, Jon?

I'll take your Otter Lodge (nice one) and raise you a ......

http://www.flickr.com/photos/71755261@N00/4800145685/

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## Jon

LOL. Would never have thought to google that.

Someone somewhere likely has a restaurant named Pancreas Lodge. Good snappy name and would look good on a letterhead.

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## Bumble

> Hey don't knock that masonic thread on biobees. I just found it the other day and saw I got a name check.


Unable to read it without registering.

It's a conspiracy!

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## Neils

> Hey don't knock that masonic thread on biobees. I just found it the other day and saw I got a name check.
> Comedy gold does not appear before us every day so give thanks when you find a thread like that.


Wow, where's the popping eyeball smiley when you need it?

Can I suggest that my stack of supers was actually collapsed by the government rather than blown over by the wind?

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## Jon

A valid hypothesis and anyone who questions it is clearly guilty of lazy thinking.

What task were you given to prove you are worthy?
Have you mastered that ukelele yet?

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## Neils

Not yet, paid agents of the banjo appreciation society keep un tuning it in the night.

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## Jon

At least you have them sussed.

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## Bumble

> Wow, where's the popping eyeball smiley when you need it?
> 
> Can I suggest that my stack of supers was actually collapsed by the government rather than blown over by the wind?


This do?

smiley-face-wallpaper-007.jpg

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## Jon

Maybe the disappearing bees have ended up in the burgers along with Shergar and the rest of the horses.
If Bayer is smart enough to hire thousands of shills to post on the bee forums and Co-opt illuminati like the Curator of the Commonwealth Potato collection it should be but a simple task to bulk up those burgers with yet more extraneous DNA.

Building my burger business bee by bee.

See I can write snappy advertising which only goes to show I am likely but a pawn of the dark forces.

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## Neils

I still haven't discounted that you're a paid agent of the ukulele lodge though.

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## Neils

> This do?
> 
> smiley-face-wallpaper-007.jpg


Perfect.

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## Jon

So Lodge-Master Neil, would you agree with Doris that some of my statements are 'very odd'
Make your mind up for yourself now.
Don't succumb to any undue influence from the Thetons in the room.
They are devious little critters and they know how to mess with your head.

I have always prided myself in the singular lack of oddness relating to each and every word I utter.

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## Neils

Hang on a sec I need my water spray and copy of barefoot beekeeper clenched between my knees before I can answer that.

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## madasafish

> Hang on a sec I need my water spray and copy of barefoot beekeeper clenched between my knees before I can answer that.


I've got my water spray which was given to me by the Grand Master of the Lodge.. oops .. Have I let the feline out of the bag?  :EEK!: 


I did not dare comment on the Masonic thread on Biobees for fear of spoiling the fun....

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## wee willy

> Unable to read it without registering.
> 
> It's a conspiracy!


I won't be looking . I don't buy pigs in pokes :Smile: 
I do notice the site is not averse to accepting sponsors from all and sundry including mobile phone (harmful to bees?) companies and credit card pushers . "Pots and Pans"  :Big Grin: 
WW


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## gavin

> Maybe the disappearing bees have ended up in the burgers along with Shergar and the rest of the horses.
> If Bayer is smart enough to hire thousands of shills to post on the bee forums and Co-opt illuminati like the Curator of the Commonwealth Potato collection it should be but a simple task to bulk up those burgers with yet more extraneous DNA.
> 
> Building my burger business bee by bee.
> 
> See I can write snappy advertising which only goes to show I am likely but a pawn of the dark forces.


There is nothing quite like a Jon in full flow, perhaps partially fuelled by a glass or two of wine.

Post of Year (for the day) unless Calum or someone can better it in the next four hours.

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## Jon

No wine involved for a change. Bushmills sponsored the UBKA event at the weekend and I got given a litre of some new honey whiskey product they are promoting, as a token of someones esteem.
No point in leaving something like that languishing at the back of the shelf when the masons are at large. Be careful out there!

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

> Maybe the disappearing bees have ended up in the burgers along with Shergar and the rest of the horses.
> If Bayer is smart enough to hire thousands of shills to post on the bee forums and Co-opt illuminati like the Curator of the Commonwealth Potato collection it should be but a simple task to bulk up those burgers with yet more extraneous DNA.
> 
> Building my burger business bee by bee.
> 
> See I can write snappy advertising which only goes to show I am likely but a pawn of the dark forces.


  oft times drink may reveal the truth, contradicting claims to the high ground when sober.think on and cleanse thyself..

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## Jon

in vino veritas, eh?

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

> in vino veritas, eh?


old bushmills i staggered...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztMsl...bQA_U1UBovluNE

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## Jon

Can't beat a bit of Tom Waites with or without the Bush.

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

waits....

 we all make mistakes.it's tough to admit to them.but it's the greatest learning move anyone can make...

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## Jon

Must have been thinking of Terry Waite!
Tom Waits for no man.

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

well done.

now for step two..

 there may be up to eight more..

 reflect on why you have spent so much time and thought in defending products designed to disrupt the minds of so many creatures...

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## Jon

Eight or nine?
Either way it will have to wait(e) until tomorrow as I am off to my bed.

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## zenartisan (JTF2)

sleep well

Admin note: Interesting to see you trying so hard to get back on SBAi, John.  No more though, you are currently still our only banned person.

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