# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Poly hive musings.

## Neils

> Interesting thoughts and I would like to hear more of your thinking on this subject, but perhaps this isn't the right thread. I've no real experience of poly beyond mating nucs but as my post on the home made mating nuc thread earlier this week showed, even in this area I'm looking towards making my own in wood and will be putting ten into winter alongside eight poly versions. They've already proven themselves as suitable for mating the queens (no difference to the poly boxes) in a rather dreary summer so now it's just a case of how they perform over winter and more importantly next Spring.


To break out of the other thread.

I bought two Paynes 14x12 hives this year, one of which I currently have a colony of bees in.  I'm pretty sure I posted my initial thoughts on here, with some pics, at the time.

I know there are other suppliers etc etc but I can only give my thoughts on a summer of using Payne's hive.

I didn't do anything to the hive other than put bees in it and that is possibly my first mistake. Since then here are my thoughts:

Payne's supply a clear plastic sheet as a "crown board" on a bottom bee space hive (made by Bayer ironically enough). This is diffult to put in place without trapping or squishing bees on the top bars.  I do now use a standard crown board but this means that the roof is very loose. Paynes do supply a cargo strap with each hive but I find a brick works just as well keeping it in place.

as soon as I put bees in it they started to chew the top of the side walls, they've continued to do this pretty much since day one.

Now they've added propolis to the mix taking the frames out tends to bring some of the poly wall with it.

Generally the poly construction isn't as dense as an apidea and it tends to damage easily as a result. I gather you can treat the hives with varnish? to make them a bit more durable.

On the plus side the bees seem to have done pretty well in them, national kit does fit on fine and, as suppliers go Paynes have been pretty good and the rest of their stuff is pretty top notch.

The proof might well be how they do over winter compared to the cedar hives and I know I'm one of the more southerly "Scottish" beekeepers but I can't say I've ever had a problem overwintering in wood hives.

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## Jon

I had a look at one of those Paynes poly hives for the first time yesterday and I did not like it.
1. There are no runners so the frames are stuck down by the entire lug and if you have bees which use a lot of propolis you could easily damage the poly. It took me several minutes to get the first frame out.
2. The box I looked at yesterday also had a home made crown board so users obviously have an issue with the inner cover.
3. Did not notice any  chewing of the poly
4. There was a large brood area relative to the number of bees so I guess that is probably the main advantage of poly, faster build up.

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## Neils

Mine did come with metal runners per fitted.

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## fatshark

There's a thread elsewhere on the Paynes polynucs, with some solutions to the issues raised by Jon.  You can easily add runners, converting them to bottom bee space.  I use a 2mm perspex crown board.  Since the frames are now flush with the rim of the box I simply slide it along gently and the bees go down readily enough.  My main issue is with the feeder, which is too narrow and a pain to empty if there are bees in the box (for example, removing fermenting syrup).  I've covered the feeder with gaffer tape and use a frame feeder instead.

The entrance on the original Paynes polynucs was rubbish ... I pinned a small correx landing platform underneath to help the girls home.  

However, the exact same problem Jon highlights with the frame lugs getting stuck down applies to the Modern Beekeeping poly nationals.  These have runners, but they're ridged with a broad contact area for the lugs.  I've used one of these boxes for most of this season and it's driven me nuts.  To compound the issue:

the box is marginally too narrow meaning the ends of the lugs - if propilised - are a tight squeeze and so don't slide along the runners.
the QE gets stuck to the super above, even after liberal use of vaseline covering the contacting faces of the brood box and super
the box is incompatible with other national equipment - aside from not being able to simply stack boxes up this means you also need dedicated QE's, crown boards, clearer boards etc.  I've ended up building a sort of wide 'shim' to allow uniting a wood national (below) with a poly national (above)
the curved corners and overhanging lip of the supers means you have to align the box directly when stacking - combined with the relatively wide interacting faces this can lead to a lot of casualties if the boxes are packed with bees
They are nice and light and the quality of the poly is very high.  However, the issues above mean that my two boxes will be being traded for cedar at the end of this season.  

I should add that I have a number of Sweinty poly supers and am very pleased with them.  These stack well with cedar national boxes and - with the addition of castellated spacers - work well as supers.

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## gavin

Was nodding approvingly at all of that FS (don't have any MB kit myself) until I hit the last line.  What?!  You've spoiled it all now.  That counts as trolling!

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## prakel

> as soon as I put bees in it they started to chew the top of the side walls, they've continued to do this pretty much since day one.
> 
> Now they've added propolis to the mix taking the frames out tends to bring some of the poly wall with it.
> 
> Generally the poly construction isn't as dense as an apidea and it tends to damage easily as a result. I gather you can treat the hives with varnish? to make them a bit more durable.


I can understand the recommendation to varnish the frame rest area of the Swienty national boxes -maintaining the same external dimensions of the standard wooden hive must create a potential failure point in the polystyrene at that location but I'd imagine the need to varnish the entire box would certainly take the shine off any cost savings over bought wood boxes. Also, as I've said elsewhere (it's a bit of a pet hate of mine) I dislike having to modify brand new equipment, I expect it to be fit for purpose.

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## Neils

i agree with you completely. i might be wrong, but untreated i think these poly hives will do well to last 3-4 seasons.  I don't think I'd bother to do the entire inside of the hive, but I haven't looked at it in any great detail.  It's a shame in some respects I do think that the Payne's hive is otherwise pretty well thought out, not least that it's compatible with standard national kit, but I think there are a couple of design issues that need addressing right now.

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## Jon

My 7 frame correx nucs will last more than 3-4 seasons and you can make about 50 of them for the price of one Paynes polyhive.
Several nucs I made up a month ago with queens from apideas are now up to 5-6 frames of brood even without the extra insulation of a polyhive.

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## prakel

I return to the Mike Palmer quote I used in the original thread -_it's not the box, it's what's in the box_.

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## fatshark

> Was nodding approvingly at all of that FS (don't have any MB kit myself) until I hit the last line.  What?!  You've spoiled it all now.  That counts as trolling!


Eh? Was it the mention of Sweinty or the castellations? The former are justified as I bought a load for about £6 each. Nice and light (particularly this year  :Frown: ) and with handles on four sides. Castellations? I've always used them. I start them off at 11 to a box and work up to 8 or 9 to a box by which time the comb usually can't withstand my over-enthusiastic centrifugation.

Prakel makes a good point.  I dislike painting the poly boxes before use - too many nooks and crannies - and it would be good to be able to use them directly.  Although I do usually paint my cedar boxse (camouflage) the sides are flat so it takes minutes.

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## Neils

Castellations are good for one thing...  :Big Grin:  turning upside down and using as emergency frame runners.

Given the choice between burning evangelical, "natural", beekeepers or castellated spacers at the stake I'll take the latter every time  :Big Grin:

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## gavin

'twas the castellations of course.  Swienty equipment is lovely, in the main.  A few issues with bottom space boxes (Nationals) and top space feeders and roofs, but it is well-made and well-designed stuff.

Thornes went over to castellated spacers for a year or two as standard with their supers, and I really dislike them.  If you can't slide frames along to space them out or to lift one, or squash them up, it is useless in my eyes.

I have a Paynes nuc which had the frame rests painted with varnish but I hadn't got around to the masonry paint over the rest of it.  The bees were chewing the edge of the rim around the frame area.  Maybe they could see light along the crack - but it looks like I need to paint varnish over more of it.

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## Jon

> Eh? Was it the mention of Sweinty or the castellations?


A castellations shill comes out of the woodwork. Wonder if that is lucrative.

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## prakel

In what now seems like 'another life' I was lumbered (for the best part of a season) with looking after a gang of langstroth footprint hives which were fitted out to take 13 Smith frames complete with home made quarter inch ply castellations. How I miss those boxes!

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## GRIZZLY

Don't you lot in the north feed your bees??.I've been using Paynes polyneucs for two seasons now with not so much as a chew.Same question to our friend in Brissle.I've used the M.B. hives for two seasons now and, having made some crown boards to allow me to adapt to the use of woodern supers I've had no trouble.I certainly haven't had trouble with stuck frame ends.Also painting - this is a one off and doesn't need re-doing.I've also used Swienty hives - theyre o.k. but very basic i.e. have to paint them and varnish the frame recesses and, whilst having a varroa floor, there is no provision for putting a correx board under to check for mite drop.Again I had to mod the floors by cutting away the back base and adding two strips of wood along the insides to take the boards.It seems all existing polyhives have their plusses and minuses and fall behind wooden hives with regard to interchangeability of components from one to the other.My bees certainly overwintered better in the polyhives and neucs.Like all new things ,it takes time and practice to get used to them after which you wonder what all the fuss was about.When I started with the M.B. hives I very nearly dumped the lot back on M.B. because of the incompatability with the woodern nationals. As a result I bought a set of the Swienty hives which I've used for a season side-by-side with M.B.hives.I found these a bit too basic and have made the decision to stick with the M.B.hives which I now find much easier to operate as I get used to the system and added the parts to produce interchangeability with my wood hives..Each to his own I suppose.

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## Adam

For the same reasons as Fatshark, my MB hive will be out of action in a few weeks. The spacings are just wrong as you can't slide the frames along and bees get squashed - the runners are designed to do this when you put a frame back in. I'm not too keen on the overhang box to box - it's difficult to get them apart. A standard q excluder doesn't fit. The plastic crown-board droops down (top bee space). I've mentioned before that there isn't a bee space between two brood boxes so my top box has a strip of wood on top of the plastic runner to give me the right space and less bees get squashed.



Strip of wood inserted and thre arrow shows there is NO gap at the end of the top bars.

I can see advantages of a top bee space. However you can't put a super down easily so I think out of choice - if I started again, I would still chose a bottom bee space design.

The Paynes Nats do have runners and you can either use those which are supplied or drop in a castellated spacer in the slot in a super, so it's well thought out in that regard. Mine are painted on the outside. I've done nothing on the inside and there's been no chewing. A galvanized queen excluder doesn't show up at all; otherwise anything else will be seen as a gap in the poly. The poly IS too soft and with propolis at this time of year, getting them apart is liable to cause damage to them. As I've lost my hive tool and I'm using a chisel as a makeshift one, great care is needed.
The thicker wall of a poly does mean that more bees get squashed.
My main complaint of the Paynes hive is that there are no hand-holds. Lifting 2 supers off is fine with a National - the design is better than a wooden Langstroth  in this respect in that there's the whole width of the hive to grip rather than a little slot - the Paynes one is not so good.
The bees have done well in them. 18 frames of brood is a daft amount. 10 on the top floor and 8 below. I don't have too much of a problem with the plastic crown board - well it's better than nothing and doesn't cause a problem for the bees. They need to be well smoked and all the frames clear of wax so it goes down flat. It's still not as good as one with a bee space under it.

My plan is to see how things go with the Paynes Nat for another year. Then decide.

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## Adam

For polynucs, see the gallery of the BBKA site (Adam's Album) for a photo of a hacked about one that is now an 8-framer.

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## prakel

> The bees have done well in them. 18 frames of brood is a daft amount. 10 on the top floor and 8 below.


Hi Adam, has there been a corresponding increase in honey compared to your wooden hives? Elsewhere I've read about poly hives giving a 20%/30% increase in harvest, have you found this to be the case too?

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## gavin

> For polynucs, see the gallery of the BBKA site (Adam's Album) for a photo of a hacked about one that is now an 8-framer.


Adam's album is here:

http://www.bbka.org.uk/gallery/view_images.php?album=4

And here is his image of the modified Paynes polynuc:



I see that the BBKA are claiming copyright!  Oh well, the image above is coming straight off their site.  Hope that you agreed to transfer all rights to them Adam.

I like the modification.  A removable frame feeder in an 8-frame box would be a good combination.

Grizzly: No!  I hardly feed mine.  Only when they are desperate.

G.

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## GRIZZLY

I recon Adams' mod to the polyneuc is a good idea.When I first saw these neucs I thought "what a good idea to have a built in feeder" but,in practice, the bees fill the feeder with wild comb which is hard to remove without damage.I am going to do the same mod to mine and use a separate frame feeder.Also mod the entrance to give a better lead-in to the bees with a small landing platform.I also got the lec from Paynes which converts the box to 14 x 12 size.Not to use as a converter but as a sort of shallow super to allow candy to be put on top of the frames and allow the lid to seat snugly.Works well.
Gavin is your "only feed when they're desperate" policy Scottish thrift ? or some secret measure bees to make them more self-sufficient and independent.

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## Adam

I think it's too early to say that I got more honey from this colony; yes they did OK but it might be just because it was the bee. A sister queen has done very well in a double National without swarming. A third sister in the MB hive produced swarm cells very early on and has finished up giving me next to nothing.

I have moved the bees from the MB hive. They fitted into a 8 frame plywood nuc. As they were being robbed I have a 1" wide entrance in it. Another issue with the MB hives is that it doesn't have an entrance reducer apart from a full-width piece of plastic, so unless you hack it about, (and some beekeepers can't do that sort of thing) you can't reduce the entrance.


Copyright of photo's. I did question that - apparently most other on-line sites such as Flickr do something similar but they don't tell you. I am mindful that if I had a really amazing picture, I would post elsewhere first. Gavin, are you teasing the BBKA by showing the picture?

The gallery doesn't really work (no change there then!) as pictures have to be approved before they go live so you can't upload and post in one go. I understand the concerns about security but as they are uploaded by BBKA members I don't see the problem; there must be a secure way of uploading. So it's a gallery that doesn't allow you to post straight-away so doesn't work for the forum and the BBKA are relying on a few Forum members to fill it. Hmmm.

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## Neils

Not true for Flickr (I have a premium account so I checked), the copyright is yours (assuming they're your images of course) and you have a number of choices of copyright that you can post pictures under.

Back to the hives, I'm going to treat the second one, at least on the sidewalls by the top bars and see how that gets on in comparison. What can I say? The sidewalls are definitely getting chewed and that's contributing to propolis covered top bars pulling more of the sidewall off.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Is there anybody else selling National polynucs apart from Paynes?  The box is fine - just a pity about the feeder.
Kitta

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## gavin

> Gavin, are you teasing the BBKA by showing the picture?


Wot, me?!!  I think that I was mainly motivated by helping people see it, but this 'copyright' stuff is just another sign that some of their decisions could be better.

Polynucs, Kitta?  Yes, there have been other designs around but the low cost of the Paynes one made it an instant hit.  Certainly would be worth considering how the others perform.

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## prakel

Slightly different tack now, has anyone here combined the Swienty national feeders/roofs with traditional wooden hives? If you have can you say that you've noticed any stand-out differences in Spring colony strength?

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## GRIZZLY

At least you can mix and match Swienty equipment  with traditional wood national hives as the OUTSIDE dimensions coincide.The  swienty feeders are great for feeding wooden National,Modern Beekeeping and Swienty hives.It will also sit on top of a Paynes although the Paynes hive bodies and supers protrude  as they are dimensionally bigger on their outside dimensions.I've had the odd bee drown however in their excitement to reach the feed as they get pushed under the syrup by the press of bees above.They soon sort themselves out however and I recon the  dead bees probably dont exceed 20.

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## gavin

Do you do anything special to the face of the baffle that the bees run down to get access to the syrup?  I painted the inside of the feeders with masonary paint and threw sand on the wet surface of the baffle.  Didn't see more than one or two bees drowning, but I will admit that they were not full strength colonies.  With the clear plastic ('Bayer') cover over the baffle you can stand back and watch the bees first find then sup and call in help as they find the syrup.  I was impressed by their multi-tasking.  Drinking syrup, ar&e in the air, tip over, and fanning of the wings, all at the same time.  The same rough surface inside the Paynes feeder didn't stop mass deaths in them.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The same rough surface inside the Paynes feeder didn't stop mass deaths in them.


Do you think it is the surface, or might the reason perhaps be the small wooden float Paynes send out with the hive?  I thought that this float might just flip over with bees on it causing them to drown.  I can't do anything about that now because the hive is in use (that's another thing I don't like about a built-in feeder), but I have a new Paynes polynuc and thought that I'll try that one out with a bigger float in it - one that can't flip over.

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## gavin

Not sure, but a broader float would probably help.  The feeder compartment is tapered so it might be hard to get this right.

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## GRIZZLY

With the swienty feeders my bees build brace comb in the access slot.I have found that if I leave this in place it cuts down the rush and there is a lot less drowning-so I now leave the wild comb in place.Realy good feeders tho' at the price.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I've mentioned before that there isn't a bee space between two brood boxes so my top box has a strip of wood on top of the plastic runner to give me the right space and less bees get squashed. ...


I wish I took more note of your post, Adam.  I've just discovered the lack-of-bee-space problem when using two MB brood boxes.  The space between the frames is about 5mm.  Can a bee squeeze through that?

I'll buy another roof and floor so that I can use the two brood boxes as single-brood hives, and then that's it - no more MB nationals.

Kitta

I've just discovered Dave Cushman's page on bee spaces.  It seems bees can use a 5mm gap and because the box is polystyrene, the sides will not shrink, so that 5mm shouldn't reduce - but still, it's perhaps a bit tight.

PPS: I found a pair of callipers.  The space between the frames is 4mm so, according to DC, only usable by the smallest of bees.

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## fatshark

I made the first of a phased move out of an MB National this w/e ... I transferred the brood to a cedar box (bottom bee space) and then added a 9mm shim built from 32x9mm stripwood.  This was built (er, bodged) so the internal space was the same dimensions as the internal space of a National BB.  Therefore it protruded out on all sides and provided a platform to balance the (reassuringly heavy) MB supers on top.  I think this should solve the bee space problem until the end of the season.  This shim will also be useful when I use a clearer board once they've eaten all the honey in the coming week of bad weather ... 

Yet again, when dismantling this box, the QE was propolised to the bottom super (despite lashings of vaseline) and they were not happy with me when I prised it all apart  :Frown: 

I've also bodged a couple of Paynes 8 frame nucs as suggested by Adam via Gavin a couple of page ago.  I used "Mega Grip" to glue everything together (and fill the inevitable crevices from my 'surgery') and then added a thin skin of Polyfilla wood filler over the butchered bits, the rough inner poly and around the entrance.  The Paynes poly nuc I transferred bees out of into this new luxurious accommodation had 3 inches of fermenting syrup and several hundred corpses in the feeder  :Frown: 

A few more left to modify before breaking up hives for over wintering nucs ...

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## Adam

> I wish I took more note of your post, Adam.  I've just discovered the lack-of-bee-space problem when using two MB brood boxes.  The space between the frames is about 5mm.  Can a bee squeeze through that?
> 
> I'll buy another roof and floor so that I can use the two brood boxes as single-brood hives, and then that's it - no more MB nationals.
> 
> Kitta
> 
> I've just discovered Dave Cushman's page on bee spaces.  It seems bees can use a 5mm gap and because the box is polystyrene, the sides will not shrink, so that 5mm shouldn't reduce - but still, it's perhaps a bit tight.
> 
> PPS: I found a pair of callipers.  The space between the frames is 4mm so, according to DC, only usable by the smallest of bees.


With my MB hive, I tried to pass a 4 mm drill shank between the top and bottom frames with two brood boxes and it wouldn't go, so the space was less that 4 mm. Between a super and brood box the space was about 12 mm (from memory) wigh is too big. I had painted them before assembly, otherwise I might have returned them. The MB hive would make a good 10 frame "nuc" for over-wintering a colony. My MB hive is now empty. The bees had not done as they were told before-hand - like they do sometimes - so now sit comfortably in an 8-frame nuc. I will give them a stiff talking-to so they behave next year.

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## Mellifera Crofter

I don't know, Adam - I might have complained too early.  I already have a National MB double brood-box hive in use.  I was unaware of the small gap between the top and bottom frames when I put the bees in that one - however, yesterday, when I inspected that hive, the bees were moving quite happily between the two sets of frames.  They did not seem to struggle at all.  I've seen bees struggling to get through a queen excluder - but not there.

I was wondering whether there might be a reason for the small gap - for example, it reduces the gap in the middle of a mid-winter cluster when the bees are clustered between the two boxes.  In nature the combs would have been large sheets from top to bottom - no gap at all.  Also, as long as the frames are lined up above each other (and that might sometimes be difficult), does it matter?

Kitta

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## prakel

Has anyone used the Paradise langstroths with the interlocking lip and their beespace split between lower and upper boxes? 

Got to say that if I was considering a poly hive their jumbo would appear to be the most competively priced for someone with bees already in md boxes -although I assume that you'd only fit 9 (proper) md brood frames in a jumbo box. On the other side of the coin I imagine that the interlocking feature could easily result in lots of crushed bees.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, I'm using them (MB all-medium hives), but I've now decided to change back to Nationals.

You're right, Prakel - a lot of squashed bees as a result of the interlocking lips.  At first I liked them because I thought no wind can force its way into the hive - but I hate hearing that crunching noise.  The design of the MB Nationals is better.  The top of the box is flat, and the overhanging lip (from the next box up) is slanted so it's a bit easier to push the bees aside.

Why do you think the bee space is split between the two boxes?  I'll have to go and check.  If you use MB's frames, then I suppose it can be thought of as split, but I thought it resulted in a bottom bee-spaced hive.  I've posted this image before:

IMG_3572.jpg

I haven't tried the boxes with the more usual frames where the lugs are thinner than the top bar, but I was under the impression that if you do, that would change the hive to the usual Langstroth top bee-space.  (I do not recommend the MB frames.)

What is an 'md box' and 'md frames', Prakel?

Kitta

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## fatshark

> You're right, Prakel - a lot of squashed bees as a result of the interlocking lips.  At first I liked them because I thought no wind can force its way into the hive - but I hate hearing that crunching noise.  The design of the MB Nationals is better.  The top of the box is flat, and the overhanging lip (from the next box up) is slanted so it's a bit easier to push the bees aside.


I increasingly see the overhanging lip of the MB National as good in theory but not in practice.  It makes adding boxes askew and gently rotating them almost impossible - you can't see them crawl up or down onto the broad flat connecting faces of the boxes - the and it prevents using a hive tool to separate the boxes.  I suspect it does help prevent water ingress and (perhaps) wind, but I think that's one of the things the bees use propolis for.

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## gavin

Sounds like the key design feature of the Wormit hive, widely regarded as a good idea but impractical for those who enjoy neither squashing bees nor chewing up their woodwork with the hive tool.

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## Adam

> I don't know, Adam - I might have complained too early.  I already have a National MB double brood-box hive in use.  I was unaware of the small gap between the top and bottom frames when I put the bees in that one - however, yesterday, when I inspected that hive, the bees were moving quite happily between the two sets of frames.  They did not seem to struggle at all.  I've seen bees struggling to get through a queen excluder - but not there.
> 
> I was wondering whether there might be a reason for the small gap - for example, it reduces the gap in the middle of a mid-winter cluster when the bees are clustered between the two boxes.  In nature the combs would have been large sheets from top to bottom - no gap at all.  Also, as long as the frames are lined up above each other (and that might sometimes be difficult), does it matter?
> 
> Kitta


My concern is that if you slide the frames in the top brood box across, you'll squash bees underneath. Of course it's difficult to slide frames as the ends of the top bars are hard up against the hive!

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## prakel

> Why do you think the bee space is split between the two boxes?  I'll have to go and check.  If you use MB's frames, then I suppose it can be thought of as split, but I thought it resulted in a bottom bee-spaced hive.  I've posted this image before:
> 
> IMG_3572.jpg
> 
> I haven't tried the boxes with the more usual frames where the lugs are thinner than the top bar, but I was under the impression that if you do, that would change the hive to the usual Langstroth top bee-space.  (I do not recommend the MB frames.)
> 
> What is an 'md box' and 'md frames', Prakel?
> 
> Kitta


Hi Kitta, I did actually ask the question of the guy who used to own MB after wasting too much time staring at the cross section photos on their website and his email reply was that the bee space (with 'off the peg' frames) is split between the two boxes rather than being top or bottom. I have wondered whether this might be in part an effort to avoid lifting the lower frames when removing the top box due their being connected by so called ladder comb; if the boxes were top bee space there would be a greater 'lift' before you could get the hive tool in to break the joining comb.

I think that after a couple of years regular use this ladder comb issue will probably become the bain of their BS type boxes -with such a narrow gap the bees will surely start joining the combs unless of course they're better behaved than mine!

md hives: modified dadant. The proper md frames although superficially the same size as the jumbo are spaced at one and a half inches rather than the one and a three eights (?) of the langstroth jumbo brood frame. I know that some people will disagree with this, but a md frame is -and has always been- based on the one and a half inch spacing. To my mind the narrower spacing moves it into the Langstroth jumbo class. It's based on this that I would assume that the Paradise boxes will only take 9 md frames; the primary assumption being that they're designed to take 10 Langstroth Jumbo frames. None of this is overly important, I was just trying to get my head around the dimensions.

EDIT: It's this frame spacing issue which I believe has resulted in the ability to fit 12 new frames in a national box or to have a slightly larger than necessary gap at the side -the boxes were designed for 11 frames with wider spacing than is commonly available today. In the same way that my (few) BS boxes with external dimensions of 18.5"X20" which were built and used by Manley and written about by him as being 12 frame boxes actually take 13 modern BS frames. Luckily they're a little more forgiving than the national and take the 13 frames easily at all stages.

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## prakel

> You're right, Prakel - a lot of squashed bees as a result of the interlocking lips.  At first I liked them because I thought no wind can force its way into the hive - but I hate hearing that crunching noise. Kitta


This is my one main issue with the Lyson mini-plus hives, the same lip and the same crunching.

(edit: although they're too small to show any major operating restrictions).

My other dislike of the mini plus hives has been the awful plastic/wood frames which were standard issue up until recently (I believe they've up graded to wood now -once old stocks are sold out) where after a couple of years use the plastic side bars distort and pull away from the push-in bottom bars. Minor nuiscance admittedly.

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## nemphlar

Glad I stuck with smiths poly's, not sure I follow all the issues being discussed. Can anyone explain the British fascination with bottom space nationals. I gave mine away very early in my beekeeping career. No regrets

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## Jon

I use bottom space nationals!
I also use the lightweight plastic excluders which everyone else seems to hate.
You can set these excluders back on after an inspection and they are so light the bees wriggle out from the edges before you put the supers back on.

----------


## GRIZZLY

> I use bottom space nationals!
> I also use the lightweight plastic excluders which everyone else seems to hate.
> You can set these excluders back on after an inspection and they are so light the bees wriggle out from the edges before you put the supers back on.


O.K. on bottom bee space as they lie flat on top of the frames but hopeless on top bee space as they sag so much.Framed wire are much better on top bee space.You dont trap bees if you put them on diagonally and twist into place.This lets the bees escape crushing.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Glad I stuck with smiths poly's ...


Out of curiosity (because I don't use Smiths), who sells polystyrene Smith hives?  On Swienty's 'About Us' page they say they sell them, but I can't see them in their catalogue.
Kitta

----------


## nemphlar

I bought them from denrosa, only used them this year.

----------


## Adam

My MB hive is now empty and I've got to clean it. I can't use a blow lamp and scraper; Has anyone any suggestions who's done it before?

----------


## fatshark

Just use the blowlamp ... in a well ventilated space  :Wink: 

I scrubbed mine out with washing soda ... this softens the propolis and makes it easy to remove.  MB have more details.

----------


## prakel

> ...I bought a set of the Swienty hives which I've used for a season side-by-side with M.B.hives.I found these a bit too basic and have made the decision to stick with the M.B.hives which I now find much easier to operate as I get used to the system and added the parts to produce interchangeability with my wood hives..Each to his own I suppose.


I somehow missed this line when origionally posted.

In what sense do you find the swienty hives too basic?

----------


## Poly Hive

From the perspective of some years of use I will make the following comments. 

Poly boxes area push fit and so the timetaken to paint them is in my view part of the construction and takes me some five minutes if that a box. I do not varnish them and never have in over 20 years of using. 

Longlevity. I can post you some pics of poly langstroths owned by a friend of mine from Ross-Shire which are some 35 years old and going strong. 

Runners. Never used them and see no need to. 

If the bees are chewing the poly it is not hard enough and so the boxes are not fit for purpose. Contact the supplier. 

Plastic CB... *LOL* Bin it and use either nothing or a 12mm ply one. 

Roofs. I put a brick on mine as I use it for messages. For winter I double the bricks as I no longer need the brick code I use in the active season. 

The problem at the moment is there are some pretty poor units on sale and as ever buyer beware. What do I buy? Swienty and never so far had an issue. 

PH

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## GRIZZLY

Prakel , I've had a rethink concerning the MB hives. Having now used them over two seasons I am finding practical reasons to start disliking them. The faults that have become glaring are their non-compatibility with my old wooden kit,  top bee space which gets lost by the sagging Q excluder causing brace comb being built between the brood box and bottom super , causing a lot of regular cleaning off of frame tops ,  queen excluder and super frame bottoms , manipulation of supers causing gaps to open up in the joints allowing ingress of the sort of driving rain we've had up here this year,  dirt and water getting behind the slot-in entrance closeres, roofs not deep enough resulting in mislocation if you are in a hurry to get round your bees etc,etc. - they look alright but as the location recess is only  about 8mm deep it's possible to not locate exactly.  this does't occour on swienty roofs which are sensibly deeper and difficult to mislocate.

----------


## prakel

Crikey! The evidence seems to be stacking up against the Paradise offering -got to admit that it's the probable difficulty of interchanging existing wood kit that made me most wary of spending all too scarce resources on trying them. I'm sure that it would be quite easy to build a basic wooden adapter to sit on top of the brood but that's just extra work to make a brand new box work for me. So far it seems that the Swienty model is coming out on top with regards to flexibility.

----------


## fatshark

I have both Swienty and MB kit ... and much prefer the former.  I had to botch a super-wide edge for a National clearer board to fit the MB hives which was the last straw.  I'll be selling them them this winter.  In contrast I mix and match the Swienty and cedar kit and - at this time of year - use the poly supers to house 12.5kg blocks of fondant opened onto the QE.

----------


## GRIZZLY

I too made up a special "adaptor" crown board and this resulted in a lot of moisture getting into the hives because the overhanging part seemed to direct the water into the hive mostly because it got soaked with all the rain we've been having.  I ended up cutting the overhang off - making the edges of the board flush with the outside of the broodbox.This didn't work very well either because the top of the box tapers all round making location dodgy - the board did however locate into the recess on the bottom of the supers. I put a deep rim on both sides of the crownboard to ensure the bees had somewhere to run to when clearing.  I'm now going to order 10 Swienty brood boxes which will replace the MB ones and will make wooden ventilated varroa floors. I dont like the Swienty ones being wider than the National 18 inches for some unknown reason. The roofs however are o.k with their deep recesses.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...The problem at the moment is there are some pretty poor units on sale and as ever buyer beware. What do I buy? Swienty and never so far had an issue.





> I too made up a special "adaptor" crown board ...


Would you be able to name names, PH, and give reasons?  I don't have PH's experience of beekeeping or of polyhives, but I've tried polyhives from two suppliers over the last two years - MBs and Paynes - and this is what I think so far:

They all have problems with crown boards.  In polyhives I only use CBs as feeder boards between the broodbox and an eke (a super).  I do not like the wooden ones because I think they would create a cold bridge and, in any case, standard wooden CBs do not fit the MB hives.  The the plastic ones are too slippery.  I noticed that the super eke can shift about despite being tied down.  I've now trimmed the plastic CBs to fit inside the super eke.  That works better.

MB: As everybody has mentioned already, they are incompatible with wooden hives and the over-hanging sides are a problem - the Lantstroth ones are worse than the Nationals.  There is also the space issue between two National brood boxes - as mentioned before.  I think, however, they are the most sturdy ones being made of ultra, ultra high density polystyrene.

Paynes: They have very tight-fitting roofs.  It's a struggle fitting them without squashing bees.  They also have large landing boards that might be a problem when moving hives.  I also think bees struggle with the landing boards in wet weather.  I've seen bees flipping over with their wings stuck to the wet polystyrene landing board and unable to right themselves again.  The hives are made from a less dense polystyrene - but they arrive ready-assembled.

I've now ordered a new hive from a company in Cornwall, and will probably try a Swienty at some stage.  Eventually I must choose.

----------


## Poly Hive

Not the decision I would make or have made.

I find the Pains design just wrong, a valiant attempt at a full Nat brood box but the scalloped front is a pain and a loss of needed material for warmth. Said material is in my thoughts soft, certainly softer than I am comfortable with. yes they are "ready assembled" and so more vulnerable to breaking in the delicate hands of white van courier man. One of my supers was in bits. 

MB? I listened to their spiel at the spring convention two years and had difficulty with my ears. They are obviously not compatible and have a built in weakness with that silly lip. I phoned the old foreman from Steele and Brodie as they produced a nat with the same lip and it was not a success due to gosh, the weakness of the lip.

I buy Swienty as it is the best poly on the go at this time and it works. 

Good poly is tough stuff, when I do a chat or demo I jump up and down on it, and I am a decent weight. No issues with strength and I demo that as many still think of poly in terms of packaging. 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Not the decision I would make or have made. ...
> 
> PH


Thanks for the reply, PH.  I'm trying to figure out what decision you're talking about ...  Is it cutting down plastic CBs to fit inside a super, or ordering a hive from that company in Cornwall (with their very, very big roofs) - or something else?
Kitta

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## drumgerry

I have 4 of the Paynes offerings and I'm not impressed for the reasons PH states above.  Also got a couple of Swienty brood boxes and they are in a different league in terms of quality and density of construction and ease of use.

----------


## Poly Hive

You are buying the worng units Kitta. 

Good poly lasts, I have handled units that are over 35 years old now and still going strong. 

Please forget plastic CB's. Use timber or ply they work very well and solid ones mind, no need for chimneys in them...lol

PH

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## Jimbo

I agree with PH I have had poly hives for the last 7 years with no problems. I purchased mine from Murray Macgregor (Denrosa) after seeing poly hives in action in Denmark and at Sweinty. I purchased nationals which fits well with all my other wooden national equipment. The density of the polyhive is quite high and is stronger density than poly fish boxes you sometimes see

----------


## Poly Hive

Err yes, try jumping on a fish box...lol

PH

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## Bumble

> They all have problems with crown boards.  In polyhives I only use CBs as feeder boards between the broodbox and an eke (a super).  I do not like the wooden ones because I think they would create a cold bridge and, in any case, standard wooden CBs do not fit the MB hives.  The the plastic ones are too slippery.


I found that wooden crown boards developed mildew, so stick with acrylic ones which double as feeder boards. A spare piece of acrylic covers the hole when it isn't being used.

Modern Beekeeping Lang Nucs are more dense poly than our Sqienty hives, I can't speak for MB's full size hives because we don't have any.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Modern Beekeeping Lang Nucs are more dense poly than our Sqienty hives, I can't speak for MB's full size hives because we don't have any.


The MB full-size hives are the same density as their Nucs - 'ultra, ultra dense' - that's what a person with a polystyrene factory told me.  The new hive I've ordered (mentioned above) from Bee Hive Supplies in Cornwall arrived yesterday.  I think it is just, or almost, as dense as the MB ones.  Lots better than Paynes.  My next hive will be a Swienty - then I can compare and contrast.

----------


## gavin

Agree about the mildewed ply crown boards.  A wired, framed queen excluder is an alternative, as Fatshark uses with fondant on top at this time of year.  The Swienty roof designed for top bee space (ie no rim, therefore gives a bee squashing a problem with a bottom bee space Swienty National box) demands some sort of intervention.  I like the idea of acrylic crown boards with a rim - must give that a go.  Can't see me ever needing to use a feed hole as the Swienty feeders are great and need access along a long strip rather than centrally.  I've put these feeders over a wired frames excluder - I think at Murray's suggestion.

----------


## prakel

> Modern Beekeeping Lang Nucs are more dense poly than our Sqienty hives, I can't speak for MB's full size hives because we don't have any.





> The MB full-size hives are the same density as their Nucs - 'ultra, ultra dense' - that's what a person with a polystyrene factory told me.


Are not both of these brands meant to be made to +/- 100g per litre? If so, how is there a noticable difference?

----------


## Bridget

Interesting thread.  I've been pondering same as I have 2 plywood CBs that got pretty mouldy looking plus a Perspex one which seems create more condensation so was meaning to get a replacement before it got too cold.  The Perspex is on a Swienty poly at present. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## fatshark

Bridget
You should only get significant condensation on the underside of a perspex crown board if it has insufficient insulation above it ... mine have 2" of Kingspan and no condensation. I use them all year round with no problems. Two years ago - the properly cold winter (whilst acknowledging the West Midlands is not really cold when compared to Kingussie  :EEK!: ) - the bees formed a flat pancake shaped cluster covering much of the underside of the perspex crown board, presumably the warmest part of the hive.

I've just sourced another sheet of perspex to build another half dozen over the winter ... at a fraction of the cost of the Thornes offerings.

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## Bumble

> Are not both of these brands meant to be made to +/- 100g per litre? If so, how is there a noticable difference?


It's difficult to explain the difference. They're both good. I wouldn't swap my Swienty hives because they work and seem sturdy enough to withstand almost anything I could do to them. Same with the Modern Beekeeping nuc.

There is a difference when you see the two alongside each other, unpainted. It's probably the wrong sort of comparison, but if you can imagine two grades of MDF, with one made of finer particles than the other, but still the same 'weight' - they look almost the same, do the same job, but feel slightly different.




> Bridget
> You should only get significant condensation on the underside of a perspex crown board if it has insufficient insulation above it ... mine have 2" of Kingspan and no condensation.


I think, also, that any condensation on acrylic, perspex or polystyrene is availabel to the bees, and they drink it. An unsealed wooden crownboard will absorb any atmospheric moisture, which could be from bees themselves or from damp air getting into the hive.

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## prakel

> *There is a difference when you see the two alongside each other, unpainted*. It's probably the wrong sort of comparison, but if you can imagine two grades of MDF, with one made of finer particles than the other, but still the same 'weight' - they look almost the same, do the same job, but feel slightly different.


Interesting observation. Just looking at the webpage photos of the two there's something 'sharper' about the Paradise offering but previously I'd put that down to an optical allusion created by the yellow plastic trim of the runners.

I'm going to try a few of the Paradise nuc boxes in the Spring -seems like a way of dipping a toe in without commiting to their full size boxes with that interlocking lip, at the same time I reckon on running a couple Swienty boxes primarily for cell raising -again an easy option as there're then no real issues of having 'odd' hives in the general run of things.

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## greengumbo

> At least you can mix and match Swienty equipment  with traditional wood national hives as the OUTSIDE dimensions coincide.The  swienty feeders are great for feeding wooden National,Modern Beekeeping and Swienty hives.It will also sit on top of a Paynes although the Paynes hive bodies and supers protrude  as they are dimensionally bigger on their outside dimensions.I've had the odd bee drown however in their excitement to reach the feed as they get pushed under the syrup by the press of bees above.They soon sort themselves out however and I recon the  dead bees probably dont exceed 20.


Do the Swienty feeders fit on Modern beekeeping langstroths Grizzly ? Can you invert them to make an eke for fondant ? The ones supplied by MB dont invert  :Frown:

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## Poly Hive

I use the Swienty feeders as fondant covers on my poly Nats. they fit the OD neatly and if the ratio is the same with Lang then they may well fit but that lip is of course the issue. The answer of course may be to saw it off. 

PH

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## GRIZZLY

Dont run Langstroths , gumbo , so can't tell you. Mine fit on to all my national based hives despite their variations in O/dimensions. I've left them on the hive over winter in the past with no ill effects - the bees overwintered fine.

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## GRIZZLY

Just taken delivery of my new Swienty poly nationals, I'm now faced with acres of painting.  At least I've got the winter to carry out the task. I'm looking forward to transferring my colonies in the spring and being able to beekeep with equipment that matches dimensionally with my old wooden gear.  This leaves me with 20 M.B hives to dispose of - any takers ,  going cheap (1/2 price)

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## nellyp

Looking at things it looks as if the Sweinty is best matched to BBS wooden nats, so my initial order will come from Wales. A good debate for anyone wanting to make an informed dicision. Does anyone operarte 14 x 12 with Sweinty's, If so do you use 2 supers or brood and super to accomodate the larger frame ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...The Swienty roof designed for top bee space (ie no rim, therefore gives a bee squashing a problem with a bottom bee space Swienty National box) demands some sort of intervention. ...





> Looking at things it looks as if the Sweinty is best matched to BBS wooden nats, so my initial order will come from Wales. A good debate for anyone wanting to make an informed dicision. ...


I thought of ordering a Swienty, but following Gavin's remark I decided against it and ordered a double brood box hive with a super from Bee Hive Supplies.  It's still a bit too early for me to report back because I only transferred the bees into this hive just before winter - but I'm happy so far.  It seems like a good hive and one that is also completely interchangeable with other hives.  The roof is very sturdy with lots of insulation and a large rim fitting over the top box.
Kitta

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## nellyp

Gavin note was taken in. I've got some spare wooden equipment so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor.
BHS offering looks good however overall dims of the hive aren't comptiable if I wish to mix and match, esp when it comes to
wooden roofs. I'm in agreement with Grizzly I don't want to waste kit I already have so compatiability and ease of use is a serious issue and the Swienty offer looks a little cheaper.

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## gavin

> .. so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor.


That may work - if you mean ply crownboard on the brood box then a sheet of Kingspan or similar before the roof.

I might (not having spare traditional roofs) consider oiling (boiled linseed oil) a ply crownboard to go between a Swienty National (bottom space) brood box and a Swienty (no space under as they're designed for Langstroths) polystyrene roof.  May stop the mould on the crownboard while giving the bee space each side.

G.

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## nellyp

.[/QUOTE]  gavin;15156]That may work - if you mean ply crownboard on the brood box then a sheet of Kingspan or similar before the roof


That was my thinking Gavin. Trial and error will see which that does work and that, that doesn't work.

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## Poly Hive

Over engineering me thinks. I have used various combinations over the years of poly or wooden floors, poly brood, ply CB and then either poly roof or timer roof with a chunk of insulation in. I have never treated the prly CB's and have never that I can think of had issues with them. This is over 20+ years on at times quite numerous amounts so not a one hive sample. 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I've got some spare wooden equipment so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor. ...


I don't understand why you would want to use a wooden roof with a poly hive, Nelly.  You immediately will have to start fluffing about because poly boxes - no matter where they're from - aren't compatible with wooden roofs.  I also think that the roof is one of the most important parts of a poly hive.  Why have wonderfully insulated walls, and then undermine it all with a wooden roof and crown board?
Kitta

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## Poly Hive

In a word cost. 

It is possible to make say three roofs from ply and insulate the top only using say 2" of insulation material for the cost of a poly roof. The insulation value is very similar and if making a deeper roof side then it is frankly a better roof than the off the peg poly as they are terribly skimpy on the side depth. 

PH

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## nellyp

All of my wooden roofs have full depth of celotex incorpoaretd in them so why waste more money on blow a way roofs.

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## Bumble

> I've got some spare wooden equipment so was thinking of mixing and matching by using traditional cb and roof(insulated) with poly brood and floor.


I'm not sure if a standard wooden roof will fit a poly box, the profile, or footrpint, is different.

Our roofs are fairly thick metal with a single slab of poly inside, no wood anywhere.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> In a word cost. 
> 
> It is possible to make say three roofs from ply and insulate the top only using say 2" of insulation material for the cost of a poly roof. The insulation value is very similar and if making a deeper roof side then it is frankly a better roof than the off the peg poly as they are terribly skimpy on the side depth. 
> 
> PH





> All of my wooden roofs have full depth of celotex incorpoaretd in them so why waste more money on blow a way roofs.



I don't know about the cost.  Perhaps it is cheaper, but I wouldn't want to spend all that time fluffing about making new roofs to fit poly boxes when made-to-fit poly roofs come with the hives.  The roofs of the Bee Hive Supplies polys have very generous and sturdy overhangs - but I agree, some of the others have no overhang at all.

But either way - big overhang or not - it doesn't really matter as far as blow-away roofs are concerned because I tie all my hives down - whether wood or poly.  Don't you?
Kitta

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## Poly Hive

Not everyone buys by the "complete hive" apart from my first one I don't think I ever have. All mine have come as parts, and I have made as much as I could, as you do when working on a scale. I have always used bricks on mine, two on poly and one on wooden when I had them not so much as security for the roofs but as information units. A brick can tell a lot of tales if used to do so. 

It makes working an apiary much faster if at a glance the problem units can be instantly identified. They then would be worked first. 

PH

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## fatshark

> I'm not sure if a standard wooden roof will fit a poly box, the profile, or footrpint, is different.
> 
> Our roofs are fairly thick metal with a single slab of poly inside, no wood anywhere.


Standard roofs ... either homegrown or from Thornes or other suppliers fit the Swienty/Denrosa poly boxes sold by C Wynne Jones perfectly well (National size at least, which is what I've got). I mix and match cedar, pine and poly with no problems ... with the exception of th MB poly which I'm going to sell this year. These Swienty/Denrosa boxes are 18"/46cm square (external), have flat interfaces and are very strong. Recommended.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Standard roofs ... ... fit the Swienty/Denrosa poly boxes ...  These Swienty/Denrosa boxes are 18"/46cm square (external), have flat interfaces and are very strong. Recommended.


Thanks - I did not realise the outside dimensions of a Swienty are the same as a wooden hive.  Maybe somebody has already mentioned it somewhere in this thread, but I've missed it.
Kitta

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## Poly Hive

Agreed. Of all the poly kit I have tested so far the Swienty is the pick. 

I rememver at Craibstone there was a Dadant hive which had a 10" roof which effectively made an outer wall. I have long wondered why roofs are not made deeper for the timber hives at least as a 6" depth of side is far less likely to be sucked off by the wind than a 4 even and for sure than a 2". Cheaper obviously, but not near as useful for us, and surely our needs come first?

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## Bridget

I have one cedar and two Swienty poly and mix and match no probs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## nellyp

Fortunately I have no need to tie hives down as all are located in sheltered positions also I have done plenty of researching and homework before deciding on Swienty broods as a trial, being the most compatiable in exterior dimensions to wooden nats. The only slight drawback is that only 10 frames can be accomodated. As previously mentioned a great thread which helps to make an informed decision that bit easier.

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## Bumble

> Standard roofs ... either homegrown or from Thornes or other suppliers fit the Swienty/Denrosa poly boxes sold by C Wynne Jones perfectly well (National size at least, which is what I've got).


Ah, that's the difference I think. Mine are Langs and my wooden roofs won't fit the poly

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## nellyp

Denrosa/Swienty broods arrived Tuesday 8th. Totally compatiable with all my cedar/deal components inc supers ,roofs and omf's etc. Ordered Sunday from C Wynne Jones and arrived Tuesday pm, service as usual from them 100%.

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## prakel

Do the Swienty/Denrosa Smiths share the same external footprint as their Nationals? I seem to remember reading a post by Murray McGreggor in which he said that the feeders were interchangeable which obviously suggests the same sizing; the idea of trying to search that comment out of his voluminous contributions to BKF is a little daunting....

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## gavin

Yes, we got a couple of Smiths by mistake in an order of Nationals.  Same footprint and the only change is in the cut-out where the frames sit. The cut-out is narrower (for the shorter-lugged frames) and deeper (for the top bee space).

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I just looked at a picture of the Swienty hive on the Wynne Jones website.  It seems they come without frame runners.  Are all the Swienty boxes without runners and do you have to order them separately?
Kitta

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## prakel

Thanks Gavin, the idea of the more robust end wall (narrower cut out) is quite enticing as is the possible interchange-ability with easily available National kit (if set up as top beespace) which I suppose could be adapted easily enough to take short lug frames.

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## gavin

They don't have frame runners and I don't think that there is enough clearance for them in a National (would be in the Smith).  On Murray's advice I varnished the cut-outs and the rims of the boxes.

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## GRIZZLY

Like Gavin , I varnished the lug recesses with HARDCOAT varnish by Dulux. This is a polyurethane based varnish and dries to a very hard finish compared to ordinary varnish. Over 12 months of use there is no sign of damage.  I notice the new Denrosa (Swienty) hives from C.Wynne Jones have a new narrower floor design incorporating lugs for the varroa monitoring tray.The old floors looked like an adaptation of the roof fitted with gauze but no tray lugs. I've had to order extra floors to adapt my existing Swienty hives.

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## gavin

The time when you might appreciate the advice is a year or more in when there is a build-up of propolis in some boxes and you want to attack it with a hive tool.  Murray said also that some colonies see light through gaps at the top of the boxes and put special effort into chewing their way out, even in this dense poly.  Varnish stops that.

I just used an exterior polyurethane varnish, don't remember the brand.

I was nervous of going without frame runners but you soon get used to it and I seldom squash a bee under them.  We also have the earlier version of the Paynes nuc boxes which don't have runners (not sure if they do now!) and I varnished them too.

----------


## gavin

You might find this useful.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...nty-Poly-Hives

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## GRIZZLY

Yep ! my "new" floors are like yours in the assembly instructions. Mine must have been very early floors. Got them from JOHN MELLIS a couple of years ago.

----------


## prakel

> You might find this useful.
> 
> http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...nty-Poly-Hives


The comments regarding rodents are 'near the bone' at present with the carnage that has been inflicted on some of my mini-plus hives over the last month. 

My real concern with the National variant is that narrow upstand -shown very well in the photo of the shoulder being varnished. I have considered the possibility of trying the National but nailing quarter inch ply strips across the outside to add protection. Wouldn't be too much hassle with a nail gun....

Just seems that I'm not going to find a poly hive (with the _possible_ exception of the Swienty Langstroth) that suits my requirements unless I do some kind of modification

----------


## GRIZZLY

Prakel , Never had ANY problems with the thickness of the upstand of the frame recess.If you inflict damage to it during normal frame manipulation ,then you meed to modify your method of loosening frames.I find the hive tool placed between the frames does all the loosening I need  and manipulation becomes very easy. Hundreds of these hives are in daily use without problem.

----------


## gavin

> I find the hive tool placed between the frames does all the loosening I need  and manipulation becomes very easy.


I came to the conclusion that a J hive tool would be a lot easier than my usual one to lever frame against frame - so Thornes are adding one to my sale order as we speak.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Yep got one of those at the honey show last year (2012)

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## prakel

> Prakel , Never had ANY problems with the thickness of the upstand of the frame recess.If you inflict damage to it during normal frame manipulation ,then you meed to modify your method of loosening frames.I find the hive tool placed between the frames does all the loosening I need  and manipulation becomes very easy. Hundreds of these hives are in daily use without problem.


I hadn't really looked at it from a specific frame loosening perspective, just a general concern about a potential weak point. Possibly over thinking something which isn't a problem to begin with but when it comes to spending money on bees I do tend to be very cautious.

----------


## GRIZZLY

If you're buying plastic , you can't do much better than Swienty hives for ease of use , compatability with existing wooden national equipment ,  simplicity and durability. In the spring I'm changeing over to them (14 colonies).

----------


## prakel

One thing which is certain is that the trial hives which I'm going to get for this coming season will definately be Swienty as that's the only brand which I haven't seen major concerns about from the people actually using them. Now it's just a case of which one...

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## nemphlar

> I just looked at a picture of the Swienty hive on the Wynne Jones website.  It seems they come without frame runners.  Are all the Swienty boxes without runners and do you have to order them separately?
> Kitta


I fitted runners to my poly smiths, (swienty) mainly because chiseling the frames out in the spring has always been an issue and was concerned i would damage the shoulders. I fitted a 4mm ply runner on the bottom of the CB and QE. If the pro's don't have any issues not sure I'd bother now

----------


## Julian

I haven't tried the Poly Hive but was part of a group discussion at the local BKA as to there merit. As part of that discussion someone recommended the liberal application of Vaseline to all the flat surfaces once a year. Apparently this prevents problems with propolis, especially around the runners.

----------


## Jimbo

Yes you could use vasaline. I have not used it on my polyhive brood boxes but have used it on my apidea's which is made of the same material. The reason for using it on apidea's is keep the moving parts from being propolised

----------


## Julian

My guess is there are two benefits from the application of Vaseline. Firstly that it reduces or prevents the adhesion of propolis to the surfaces it is applied and secondly that it fills the small gaps that, in the judgement of the bees, would need to be propolised.

----------


## Bumble

Conflicting comments from my local BKA about vaseline, which I have used within the hive without any problems. Some say it's potentially poisonous to bees but don't offer any proof. Any idea where they get this from?

----------


## GRIZZLY

> Conflicting comments from my local BKA about vaseline, which I have used within the hive without any problems. Some say it's potentially poisonous to bees but don't offer any proof. Any idea where they get this from?


Someones imagination?.

----------


## Julian

Ingestion of large quantities can cause diarrhoea in humans and application to the inside of the nose is not recommended. Why bees would want to eat it I don’t know but if you do have concerns over petrochemicals there are alternatives. Try melting beeswax and mix with 1/2 cup of olive oil for each 1 oz of beeswax but again, ingesting large amounts of olive oil can cause diarrhoea in humans.

----------


## Bumble

> Someones imagination?.


That's what I thought, to be honest. But it's one of those tales that might grow legs and become true.




> if you do have concerns over petrochemicals there are alternatives. Try melting beeswax and mix with 1/2 cup of olive oil for each 1 oz of beeswax but again, ingesting large amounts of olive oil can cause diarrhoea in humans.


Thanks for the idea. I'm not really concerned about petrochemicals used in the right place, it would be a bit hypocritical with my poly hives, but the comments were enough to make me stop and think, and ask.

----------


## Jon

I just ordered over 60 of the Payne poly nucs for members of my association and a neighbouring one.
If you buy more than 30 the price is reduced from £39 to £22.08 in the sale (which ends tomorrow)
I even ordered 2 for myself so I can compare them to my 50p correx nucs

http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/nuc-m...x12-jumbo-eke/

----------


## Neils

Be interested to hear what you make of them. I'm not desperately impressed with the full size hive at the moment, but fir £30 a pop I nearly bought a couple of the Nucs.

----------


## Jon

Actually they worked out at £20.50 in the end including the eke. Due to be delivered on Monday, 63 of them, and 3 of the full size poly hives.
I am only taking 2 nucs out of that lot.

I have seen the nucs already and they look ok.

----------


## Poly Hive

Ok deep breath time... 

I agree Paynes material is not or at the beginning may not have been dense enough, in "proper" poly bees should not be able to chew it and if they can it is "not fit for purpose" and complain to the vendor. Simple. 

Design is another matter and I think based on over 20 years of poly usage, Paynes have dropped the proverbial on a number of issues most of which are highlighted in the thread esp these two, it is very difficult to fit a mouseguard, and why have such deep hand holds? I have until now never needed a mouse guard on a poly hive as the entrance was designed to keep vermin out and in my experience has never failed. 

Castellations.. shudders... canna be doing eith the abominations. 

Runners. Have never used them with poly and never had an issue so look to your strain. Some bees just love to propolise everything and others use very little. This is under your control if you so wish it. 

Feeding. When desperate? Dodgy tatics in my view. I like mine to have stores left over. To that end at Christmass or so I put on a chunk of fondant, and by that I mean a good four or five kilos of, and in Spring what is left over I melt down to make syrup for feeding then. No wastage. I feed in an empty poly super and that works very well or an upturned poly feeder. 

The simpler you keep things the more efficient it is for you and the bees, and please remember bees love warmth. In sub zero temps in polys the bees are barely clustered, there is no need and isolation starvation is rare to say the least. 

Put prejudice aside and enjoy the benefits. 

PH

----------


## gavin

> Be interested to hear what you make of them. I'm not desperately impressed with the full size hive at the moment, but fir £30 a pop I nearly bought a couple of the Nucs.


I bought 15 for the local association bees and have about half of them occupied at the moment.  Impressed by the ability to get some very small clusters through the winter.  

Bought four for myself when Paynes had their autumn sale, with ekes now that they are available.  Very useful, I could see me routinely overwintering nucs in them to replace winter losses or sell.

G.

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## Jon

Price is back up to £30 for the nuc today for bulk purchase or £39.50 for a single one.
Very good value in the sale at £20.50

----------


## Jon

Just took delivery of 63 Payne nucs on 3 pallets.
They were well wrapped and I don't see any signs of damage apart from a light scrape or two.

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## fatshark

Happy painting Jon!
I've overwintered bees in these this year and last and have been pleased with the way they performed.  Mine are all now butchered to remove the internal feeder which I found to be more trouble than it was worth.

--
fatshark

----------


## Jon

> Happy painting Jon!
> fatshark


No chance. Only 2 of them are mine!

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## Charlie

I've got 60 of the Paynes poly nucs and am pleased with the way the bees have done in them. However I too don't like the integrated feeder, very poorly thought out. Should of been supplied with an Eke at the same price as standard to allow for feeding or the use as a14*12.

Also got 6 of the poly hives as a trial, again the bees have done very well in them, however there are some serious quality and design flaws. The bees chew them if they find a weak point in the construction, and there are many ! The rooofs are far too tight to fit easily, the feeders are rubbish, too many drowned bees (before the mods) and the landing boards are ugly and unnecessary, too much wasted space for transportation or storage. The Scalloping to the boxes is excessive and degrades the thermal efficiency.

I won't be buying anymore, It's going to be swienty for my next order.

----------


## Poly Hive

Canna argue with any of those points. I just wish Paynes had done a bit more indepth research before diving in and getting it so wrong. Un-necessary. They sent me on e to review after going into production, pity it was not before. 

I have no issues though with the Swienty models apart from the so called "migratory floor" which is far too heavy.

PH

----------


## Black Comb

If we are talking swienty nucs then the slot supposedly for national frames is a bit of a con. Might it be made for short lugs - perhaps smiths?
After buying I mailed them about this but no reply.
Also, the entrance looks a  bit too far under. 
Only used them last year so no real evaluation yet.

----------


## Poly Hive

Don't know the nucs you refer too as the Swienty ones I have are in theory Langstroths which I have modded to take National frames by putting in a feeder at one end. My Paynes remarks referred to the Nat hives not the nucs as I am very not impressed by them. 

Just checked the Swienty site and they don't have a National nuc that I can see, this is the one I use: http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp...&vareid=100035

PH

----------


## Jon

Quite expensive though at 40 Euro plus whatever carriage is added on when you can get a Payne nuc and the eke for £20.50 carriage free for a bulk order.

I'll have a better idea of their attributes by the end of the summer as up to now I have only seen a couple in use.

----------


## Poly Hive

Well you see it all depends on ones outlook. I have kit which is lasting as I would expect, and if I get 40 years out of it (though I won't as I'll be long dead, but some one else will) then it's a good deal and a good buy. If I spend half the money and get a quarter the life span then I am not amused. Some buy cheap and regret long, I prefer to pay a bit more and enjoy it.  

PH

----------


## Black Comb

Yes that's the Swienty one. I have mainly langs but plan to overwinter some nat nucs using these. I understood that a piece of plywood in the "slot" would suffice butit needs more modding as they are designed for short frames. I don't have any Paynes so can't compare. 
Swienty stuff seems well made but I have reservations about that entrance.

I bought mine a couple of years ago (but not used much yet) so they were cheaper. I collected from Stoneleigh.

----------


## Poly Hive

Yup the entrance is rubbish, I use a 2" cutter and make a new one, then block up the old one. I use a square of ply iwth 8mm holes in it for a mouse excluder and that works well I have found. The nucs thrive in the poly though which is the main thing. 

PH

----------


## drumgerry

Just reading through this thread and noticed the modded Paynes nuc with the feeder removed.  Just wondering how people are feeding their bees using the modded version.  Is it a frame feeder or does the Paynes eke create enough of a space for a contact feeder?

----------


## Jon

The eke is about 3 inches deep.

----------


## fatshark

I built wooden ekes for mine as I considered the £££ Paynes wanted was far too much. The wooden eke houses a block of Kingspan with a central hole to take a kilo of fondant. This solved a further defect in these nucs which is the roof thickness ... or, more correctly, thinness.

nuc1.jpgnuc2.jpg

----------


## drumgerry

I see Modern Beekeeping have their Langstroth nucs on offer at the moment - £29 each.  Thinking of taking a punt on a couple and adapting for Nat frames.  Anyone used them?  They look very nice on the website but looks can be deceiving.

http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/it...h-nucleus-hive

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I see Modern Beekeeping have their Langstroth nucs on offer at the moment - £29 each.  Thinking of taking a punt on a couple and adapting for Nat frames.  Anyone used them?  They look very nice on the website but looks can be deceiving.
> 
> http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/it...h-nucleus-hive


They look good but painting needed --whats that all about?why are they not weatherproof?---you don't need to paint a paynes nuc although you do have some other stuff to sort out 
I hate painting things  :Smile:

----------


## drumgerry

Ah but I have a cunning plan DR!  I spent this Spring painting Swienty hive bodies ad nauseam - mind numbing!  But coincidentally for another of my "things" I've just bought an HVLP spray turbine system.  Guess what I'm going to be using that for?!

----------


## gavin

> Ah but I have a cunning plan DR!  I spent this Spring painting Swienty hive bodies ad nauseam - mind numbing!  But coincidentally for another of my "things" I've just bought an HVLP spray turbine system.  Guess what I'm going to be using that for?!


You have so much in common with the commercial guys!

----------


## fatshark

I think I've seen a National conversion of one of these ... with an integral feeder at the end perhaps? Presumably the other forum, possibly by Polyhive?

Painting these sculpted boxes is a real pain ... the "HVLP spray turbine system" (damn that sounds impressive) is undoubtedly the way to go.

MB do a divider for these to make a double three frame nuc. These might be well enough insulated to get one through the winter

----------


## drumgerry

Yeah Gavin - you can probably tell from my recent postings how keen I am on the commercial operations at this moment in time!

Fatshark - I think I'll try to mod them without an internal feeder to be honest.  Just about to cut all of the built in feeders out of my Paynes nucs so don't want to go down that  road again.  I wonder if I'll have to make my own divider as I think I'll be filling the space with wood/ply where the slot for the divider is placed.

HVLP stuff bought to spray Nitrocellulose lacquer if that gives anyone a clue.

----------


## fatshark

Here is the link ... not an MB nuc after all. 

Mind your fingers butchering those Paynes boxes. I did all mine using a Stanley knife, a bread knife, some sort of broken off thin saw blade I found in the bottom of the tool chest, about 230ml of blood and some foul language. But they're much better for it.

----------


## drumgerry

Brilliant!  I knew PH would be the one to have done this!

Made a start on one of them tonight before the midgies chased me inside.  Managed to saw down flush with the two ends - just have to get rid of the material in the middle now and make a wooden filler for the gap in the frame rest area

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## gavin

Anyone ever tried a hot wire to slice through polystyrene of Paynes density?  I could imagine a mini-cheese slice thing on a long handle with a car battery and leads warming it up, the one you thought about using for oxalic but thought better of it.  And yes, I know .... wire cheese slicer .... how very Dundee!

(Cue that sketch with the waggly fingers under the chin ....... )

----------


## fatshark

> Brilliant!  I knew PH would be the one to have done this!
> 
> Made a start on one of them tonight before the midgies chased me inside.  Managed to saw down flush with the two ends - just have to get rid of the material in the middle now and make a wooden filler for the gap in the frame rest area


I cut a large slice off the removed feeder wall and glued that in the gap in the frame rest area - waste not want not. Also easy to sand or cut back to leave it flush. If you use Megagrip or similar glue it fills some of the inevitable small gaps.

Pleased to see you still have sufficient fingers to type ...

----------


## Dark Bee

> I cut a large slice off the removed feeder wall and glued that in the gap in the frame rest area - waste not want not. Also easy to sand or cut back to leave it flush. If you use Megagrip or similar glue it fills some of the inevitable small gaps.
> 
> Pleased to see you still have sufficient fingers to type ...


One hopes the magnanimity of contributors will extend to condoning my asking (again), why it is deemed necessary to remove the integral feeder. Is it possible to sell the salvaged material at a profit ? :Embarrassment:  Being impoverished that would be quite attactive - I'd buy a dozen or more.

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## drumgerry

Why? Dead bees Dark Bee that's why!

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## gavin

I'm bound to lose more than fatshark's 200-odd ml of blood and maybe a finger or three, so am quite likely to persist with them as they are. 

The current model comes with not just the QX but a piece of plastic to shut off the feeder if required. Which I'll lose of course. I added sand to the paint for the feeder walls, and have decided that to be bee safe the feeder needs liquid, not fondant, and a good covering of polystyrene scraps. Keep the fondant for overhead feeding with an eke, bought or bodged.

Brace comb in the feeder has happened but not often - had about 10 of these in operation at one time but I suppose the conditions have been poor for the bees and in a good year it may be more of a problem. Unless you seal off the feeder before it happens.

At the moment we have spare full boxes (though they are filling fast) so the policy of moving colonies up to full boxes (Swienty for the association ones) when they're on 6 frames suits me.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## Trog

I'm looking forward to receiving my first 3 Paynes polynucs soon so finding this discussion very useful!  Hope they turn up today as I've 2 nucs to go to Lismore on Tuesday which are currently in full size boxes with dummies!

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## Dark Bee

> Why? Dead bees Dark Bee that's why!


That is what I do not understand. Insofar as I can make out from the photos, the integral feeder is essentially the same as a "traditional" frame feeder. In the latter a float /polystyrene packing beads / mesh on feeder walls can prevent fatalities - so why cannot these techniques be used in this nuc feeder? I'm probably being very obtuse and the reason is obvious. So I'l lhave one brought over sometime and do my own investigations (in my own specially constructed laboratory) :Cool:

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## drumgerry

Dark Bee the reason why a frame feeder is better than an integral one in my opinion is that a frame feeder can be removed and cleaned up.  Any dead bees in the integral feeder can only be removed with great difficulty and generally a foul dead bee/syrup/fondant goop results which can be removed only when you have no bees in the nuc.

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## Black Comb

> I see Modern Beekeeping have their Langstroth nucs on offer at the moment - £29 each.  Thinking of taking a punt on a couple and adapting for Nat frames.  Anyone used them?  They look very nice on the website but looks can be deceiving.
> 
> http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/it...h-nucleus-hive


I've run MB poly nucs for several years and like them. I run jumbo LS, also have some Swienty LS standard size. the MB standard LS are exactly same as jumbo but shallower.
The MB ones are from Paradise Honey and are well made. They have a separate floor with mesh. They have a lip between floor and body and between body and roof. This lip is good in nucs but I would not like it in a standard hive as things like crown boards and QE could prove messy.
The nucs are six frame and have an entrance at the back and front, allowing you to run 2 x 3 frame if you wish. Or you can buy a pre-cut piece of correx from them as a separator.
In use I find them good. Also, the service from MB is generally good too.
They also sell a top feeder specially for these nucs (I have one but am yet to use it).
Painting - well MB advise that all poly contains minute cracks which over time will allow a little water ingress and when it freezes.........
Also, 2 coats of masonry paint inhibit UV degradation. Doesn't take long.
The separate floor is a bonus over the Swienty ones, meaning easier to clean.
You can also purchase special entrance closures/reducers, one for each end. Can use gaffer tape at one end of course.

2 pieces of plywood and 4 screws should convert them to nationals. As stated, you could use the gap at one end as a feeder.

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## Dark Bee

> Dark Bee the reason why a frame feeder is better than an integral one in my opinion is that a frame feeder can be removed and cleaned up.  Any dead bees in the integral feeder can only be removed with great difficulty and generally a foul dead bee/syrup/fondant goop results which can be removed only when you have no bees in the nuc.


Thank you for the elaboration Drumgerry. What you say makes sense and is quite obvious now. Swi-bines also have a fixed food chamber, but are more accessible and q-cage fondant may be used which would eliminate the drowning problem. It will be interesting to see what changes Paynes make to the design in light of the consumer opinion. I would suspect very little as the cost of new moulds must be phenominal.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Thank you for the elaboration Drumgerry. What you say makes sense and is quite obvious now. Swi-bines also have a fixed food chamber, but are more accessible and q-cage fondant may be used which would eliminate the drowning problem. It will be interesting to see what changes Paynes make to the design in light of the consumer opinion. I would suspect very little as the cost of new moulds must be phenominal.


Hi Dark Bee 
You are right to change the design would be hard
If you look at the integral feeder the rib on the inside of the hive is very thick
That's good for strength but that thick web comes up to the roof and crushes bees
so by adding a bolt on piece to the injection mould that rib could be lower by just over a bee space
That saves a bread knife mod to the rib
alternatively a remould of the roof could allow for a crown board that would be very welcome
The material is very dense, and they are great for the money, don't need painting, so could be the only sensible choice with some tweaks

----------


## gavin

The new version has a sheet of thin perspex with them which I like as it allows you to usher bees to safety before the lid goes on.  The picture on the Paynes site doesn't show these improvements.

It also has a different entrance which implies the mould was changed - no longer the slot at the base but a hole part of the way up the side with one of these birling disks to allow queen exclusion/inclusion, ventilation only, or just shut.  Better for keeping mice out.

I agree the rib is fat but it gives insulation in the winter from cold feed if you still have any, and the perspex sheet stops you crushing bees (with a little care).  You wouldn't want to drop the rib by a bee space as currently you can insert a queen excluder or just a total excluder in the depression, shutting off the feeder entirely.

I like the new version and may get a few more if it is in the autumn sale.

----------


## brothermoo

It's actually a tool that is made for each design... Ten to fifteen grand I was told by their manufacturer when looking into poly rose osb's.

Roger Payne had a big outlay! The entrance is cut from the main design so it was easier to change

__________________
sent via tapatalk

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## gavin

Thanks BM, didn't realise they were cut out.




> I like the new version and may get a few more if it is in the autumn sale.


Especially as a couple of spots of lemongrass oil made a mess of one of my four!  

No further adventures with the stuff to report tonight  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> It's actually a tool that is made for each design... Ten to fifteen grand I was told by their manufacturer when looking into poly rose osb's.
> 
> Roger Payne had a big outlay! The entrance is cut from the main design so it was easier to change
> 
> __________________
> sent via tapatalk


Maybe the SBA could design one and raise the money charitably to pay for the tool
Then churn them out till they get the money back

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## robin118

I have two of the paynes nucs the older ones with the slot entrance. I think in general they are ok but I do not like the internal feeder. My mane gripe with them though is I think the roof is too thin it should be thicker giving more insulation.

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## Adam

I don't like the internal feeder either so I cut it out.
http://www.bbka.org.uk/files/gallery...6081_large.jpg

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## robin118

> I don't like the internal feeder either so I cut it out.
> http://www.bbka.org.uk/files/gallery...6081_large.jpg


I have thought about doing this in the past and have suggested it to other people after seeing it on here. However I use langstroths so only use the paynes nucs in an emergency.
 The comment of the lids being to thin on the national poly nucs comes from several nucs being transferred from the national nuc to full poly langs and doing so much better even in the bigger hive I belive this is due to thicker lids meaning more top insulation.

----------


## fatshark

robin118 ... this is all sounding good since I've ordered some poly Lang nucs following the earlier tip from drumgerry about the current offer from ModernBeekeeping. These should be here Tuesday and are destined for conversion to Nationals - either six frame or twin three frame. The feeder on the Paynes box is poor, but can be avoided, the lid is hopeless. At the frankly daft prices some people are charging for nucs this year you can get half a dozen empty nucs for the same price ...

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## Dark Bee

> The new version has a sheet of thin perspex with them which I like as it allows you to usher bees to safety before the lid goes on.  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..
> I like the new version and may get a few more if it is in the autumn sale.


I bought two of this new design on yesterday (Sunday)afternoon. On has a black disk and the other a white one :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . They are of beaded and not extruded construction and although I do not have anything with which to compare them, the quality and design do not over impress. There are totally unnecessary slots underneath the lid, presumeably to aid it's removal - what a farce, the lid falls off at every opportunity. I can see myself having to make 9" deep roofs with 2" of insulation to bring them up to standard. I shall not be butchering the feeder - cost too much and can stay! My faith in my old fashioned, well used wooden nucs has been restored. But as always what works for one may not work elsewhere and vice versa.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I can see myself having to make 9" deep roofs with 2" of insulation to bring them up to standard. ...


Did you buy the eke as well?  If not, I think using the eke filled with insulation would be easier than making roofs - and neater too.  That's what I do.
Kitta

----------


## gavin

Even without additional insulation bees seem to winter very well in them.  That has to be the important thing.  The roof is a good fit as well as made of poly and that has to count for something.  If you modify the roof, there is likely to be more of a draught unless your craftmanship is very good.  Filling the eke sounds good though.

----------


## Adam

The design does have weaknesses - but credit to Roger Payne who put his hand in his pocket and paid for the mold tool in the first place. As you write Gavin, bees do seem to do quite well in them - unless they drown in the feeder which is why I removed it. All right..., butchered it.

----------


## Trog

We've just received 3 of the latest design Paynes nucs and they seem to have dealt with most of the previous design faults (apparent to us in one sent over for a nuc).  Transferred 2 nucs into 2 of them so we'll see how they do compared with our previous method of either having two nucs in a twinstock or a nuc taking up a whole brood box with dummies.  One spare now but probably not for long as the bees are feeling prosperous and will probably be thinking about swarming!

----------


## drumgerry

6 of them arrived today together with 3 of the Modern Beekeeping Langs.  The Paynes poly seems a bit harder than on the two I already have or maybe it's just that they've got a winter under their belts.  I like them.  People criticise them but they work.  Bees stay alive in them!  Just moved a swarm into one of my old ones with removed feeder and I'm glad they won't have the option to build comb in that now.  It's going to hurt (without bloodshed I hope!) to butcher the new 6 but it's got to be done.

The MB ones are made of "proper" poly but it's going to to take a bit of work to get them to take Nat frames.

----------


## fatshark

I received half a dozen of the MB poly Lang nucs today, also destined for National conversion. Like their full National hives the poly is reassuringly dense. Let's compare notes after the attempted conversion.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> 6 of them arrived today together with 3 of the Modern Beekeeping Langs.  The Paynes poly seems a bit harder than on the two I already have or maybe it's just that they've got a winter under their belts.  I like them.  People criticise them but they work.  Bees stay alive in them!  Just moved a swarm into one of my old ones with removed feeder and I'm glad they won't have the option to build comb in that now.  It's going to hurt (without bloodshed I hope!) to butcher the new 6 but it's got to be done.
> 
> The MB ones are made of "proper" poly but it's going to to take a bit of work to get them to take Nat frames.


You can get foam from Dunelm Mills etc in sheets 
I just cut a length and plugged the whole feeder slot along the top that stops the comb building

Then just get the bread knife and make a slope on that thick middle rib to avoid squishing bees

----------


## Black Comb

Yes please post as I have some to convert too.
(Plan to run some nationals alongside my langs.)

----------


## drumgerry

Lang_nat2.jpgLang_nat3.jpgLang_nat1.jpg

I converted one of the lang nucs tonight.  Not a big job really.  Just some 3/4" ply, a bit of Kingspan wrapped in duct tape and an offcut of 10mm perspex.  Also had to chisel a couple of slots for the ply to get it to sit flush with the floor.  The way I've done it I've pretty much lost the option to split it into two 3 frame nucs but I'm not bothered about that.  I didn't use any glue so if I eventually want to do that in retrospect it won't be too difficult.  And the fact that I've used some Kingspan for gap filling will make it critical to use some form of mouseguard in the winter.

----------


## fatshark

Hi drumgerry
Where are the chiselled slots? Are they in the floor at the sides? I think I'm going to do the three frame conversion first using 6mm ply for the central divider. Correx would work but I want something a little more rigid to attach the 'ends' to. What are you going to use for a cover? Thick plastic sheet? Looks like you've opted for bottom bee space (or sacrificed the top bee space). The alternative I've used on my Paynes nucs is 2mm Perspex which I just slide back from one end and the bees either take off or retreat under. I reckon it might be possible to have a half and half 2mm cover board for a twin three frame nuc, so that opening one side doesn't let all the bees out from the other ... I have a 'Twinstock' divided National brood box with a plastic cover sheet pinned along the centre which works very well. I just replace it when it gets too mucky to see through.

----------


## drumgerry

Yep - in the floor at the sides Fatshark.  So easy to do in poly with  a sharp chisel!  I have a little Pfeil 10mm one which was perfect.  I have some 3mm perspex I can use for a crownboard - bloody useful stuff perspex is but a bit scary cutting it on the table saw and mitre saw!  And yep I've gone for bottom bee space but I could take the runners out and get the top bee space back.  Couldn't be ar*ed getting it into shape for a twin nuc but it'd be great to see your pics when you've done it.

----------


## drumgerry

Just had a thought that if you could be bothered and have the tools you could rout or table saw a slot in the ply ends to take your 6mm divider.  Make the slot 7mm wide and it'd be easier taking it in and out.  No need for cabinet-making tolerances here!

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## fatshark

2-5mm Perspex can be snapped pretty easily ... just deeply score it using a metal straightedge and Stanley knife then lay the edge along a suitable right angle (table, bench etc.), clamp a length of wood along the top and then sharply snap it down. I've done this with up to 6'x4' sheets. Much easier than a saw!

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## fatshark

Ha! I can't afford the life insurance premiums necessary to use a router ...

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## drumgerry

Great tip Fatshark - thanks!  I've had my heart in mouth moments especially with the mitre saw when the perspex snaps with an almighty bang - not for the faint of heart!

----------


## drumgerry

Cutting straight slots with a router is a doddle - not so dangerous really!  But even easier with the table saw just moving the fence in little increments till you've got the slot width you want.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

If you don't fancy the stanley knife for scoring then the tile scorer is less likely to lop bits off your fingers
http://www.maplin.co.uk/tct-tile-sco...FYXMtAodUC4A-g

You get them in any diy that sell bathroom tiles

----------


## Black Comb

Thanks DG. Neat job.
I see you've even used their frame runners.

----------


## fatshark

Has anyone used thinned solvent-based exterior gloss paint on dense poly hives? I've been searching the interwebs and see Murray (ITLD in the other place) recommending 'gloss' paint but have managed to avoid almost all decorating in my life, so don't know whether all gloss is solvent based or not. Being mean I bought some Wilkinsons Evergreen external gloss - on special offer for about £8 - and hoped to use it. It is solvent based.

I'm half way through converting a MB Lang nuc into a 2x3 frame National and would prefer the entire thing didn't melt in front of my eyes when I paint it ...

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Fatshark you do get gloss acrylic (water based paint)
Lots of fumes off the solvent based paints 
High VOC I think that's Volatile Organic Compounds mean don't breath this  :Smile: 
PVA might protect them enough ?
You can water it down thin

----------


## gavin

Don't paint it with lemongrass oil, that would be my hot tip for the night.  Must take some pictures of the outcome of the drops that didn't get wiped on my jeans.  Yes, they do use exterior gloss.  I remember a conversation on the lack of effect of solvents but wouldn't like to give advice on the basis of a half remembered natter.  The paint is usually sprayed on, which might reduce the solvent load.  I just went for masonry paint as suggested by John Laidler of MB at the time.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75rKRXI87SE
This is a spray paint so would have more solvents in a can 
Wonder whats in Lemongrass oil Gavin 
Lots of window/door paint is Acrylic these days

----------


## fatshark

That's exactly the effect I'm trying to avoid. Looks like I'll be seeking a refund and going with the masonry paint again ... around here the colours are rubbish, brick red, black, magnolia etc. I've used the red, it's OK, but the tin is almost empty and I fancied a change. It's also matt and doesn't seem particularly hard wearing.

----------


## gavin

Try a pm to Murray on the other site.  I know he's busy but he does like to be helpful when he can. I imagine that they use the same stuff as you've got, perhaps thinned for industrial-scale spraying (when the neighbours were out, I was told!).

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Nip into the DIY like B&Q I think they can mix any colour you like 
It starts white and they just bung in the dye and start up the paint shaker thing
http://www.trade-point.co.uk/services/paint-mixing/
this sort of thing
http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...reservices.htm

----------


## drumgerry

What is it about masonry paint and pastel colours?!  Or the alternative.....sh**e brown!

Just bought a tin of Dulux Weatherseal smooth masonry paint in washed out green.  But I am going to thin it a bit and try to spray it!  I'm told HVLP spraying doesn't create much overspray but we'll see....

----------


## fatshark

Thanks DR ... those fancy services come at a price. Somewhere in the region of £25-30 for 2.5 litres I think. Since my son recently announced that, by his calculation, I'd be at break even point in my beekeeping income/outgoings if I sell 200kg of honey a year for the next 5 years i'm trying to minimise my costs. 

Of course, his maths is rubbish and he has no idea about the enormous pile of flat-packed poly nucs behind the even larger pile of already assembled cedar brood boxes.

----------


## Neils

We really do need the like button on here.  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks DR ... those fancy services come at a price. Somewhere in the region of £25-30 for 2.5 litres I think. Since my son recently announced that, by his calculation, I'd be at break even point in my beekeeping income/outgoings if I sell 200kg of honey a year for the next 5 years i'm trying to minimise my costs. 
> 
> Of course, his maths is rubbish and he has no idea about the enormous pile of flat-packed poly nucs behind the even larger pile of already assembled cedar brood boxes.


You get the exact colour of hive you want though
What price should we place on Art ?

You are so right about escalating costs Fatshark 
I used to loyally buy everything from Thornes but can't buy anything there now because they have gone mad overpricing things

----------


## Dark Bee

> You get the exact colour of hive you want though
> What price should we place on Art ?
> 
> You are so right about escalating costs Fatshark 
> I used to loyally buy everything from Thornes but can't buy anything there now because they have gone mad overpricing things


Do try and be more understanding - new premises need paying for. :Wink:

----------


## Trog

Get a can/tub of ordinary white masonry paint, then some tubes of (water based) acrylic paint in primary colours from a local art shop.  Using the white as a base (in a jam jar or tin), mix as much of each colour as you like, as pastel or otherwise as you like.  All hives can be different colours and you'll end up with a Balamory-style apiary  :Wink:

----------


## drumgerry

Brilliant Trog!  I'm going to do just that - sick of pastels!

----------


## madasafish

> Thanks DR ... those fancy services come at a price. Somewhere in the region of £25-30 for 2.5 litres I think. Since my son recently announced that, by his calculation, I'd be at break even point in my beekeeping income/outgoings if I sell 200kg of honey a year for the next 5 years i'm trying to minimise my costs. 
> 
> Of course, his maths is rubbish and he has no idea about the enormous pile of flat-packed poly nucs behind the even larger pile of already assembled cedar brood boxes.


Eeek!

I reckon on covering my running costs each year by selling one TBH nuc for c £120.

My original investment in hives is around £250... due largely to self build and pallets. Of course I will not get 200kg of honey a year :-(

----------


## fatshark

Nor will I ;-)  But keep that a secret.

----------


## Calum

> Nor will I ;-)  But keep that a secret.


Guys, come on its easy.
Forget about honey, its alot of work and too often a discussion about why its more expensive than Aldi.
There is far more money in selling colonies, less work too. 
I aim to sell 20 colonies again next spring, I figure 15 for frames and foundation, 3 Varroa treatment and 8 for feed. With colony prices at 120-140 here thats a tidy profit. Six frame colonies sell like hotcakes and need less of everything. 

5 queens out of the incubator yesterday, 10 sealed cells in, and 20 cells grafted finally the queen raising is gaining traction...
got myself 1000 chinease grafting tools from China last week. Paid 250. they flog them for 5 a shot here, obsene - I'm tempted to give them away....

----------


## drumgerry

I think you make a really good point there Calum.  To be honest the aspects of beekeeping that interest me concern the bees themselves.  Their life cycle and the breeding and improvement of them.  Honey's all well and good but it interests me far less.  So like you I would prefer to be producing nucs and queens as a means to make a little bit of income from beekeeping.

----------


## fatshark

Trog ... I think we need to tag that last suggestion of yours as a "top tip".

Calum ... and add to your calculations queens throughout the season at perhaps €20-30 ... I'm well-aware of this but hoped it could be kept a secret as well  :Wink:   All this discussion of profit is delaying me getting the Bentley serviced ...

By the way ... what possible reason would anyone have for 1000 Chinese grafting tools?  Or any, for that matter.  They're not single use versions are they?  I use a paintbrush and lick it between larvae.  I paid £2 for it ... by my reckoning I'm nearly €245 in profit for grafting tools alone  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I think you make a really good point there Calum.  To be honest the aspects of beekeeping that interest me concern the bees themselves.  Their life cycle and the breeding and improvement of them.  Honey's all well and good but it interests me far less.  So like you I would prefer to be producing nucs and queens as a means to make a little bit of income from beekeeping.


Years agp I used to sell some hives of bees when I had too many
That's a sort of side effect of using swarm boards if you don't recombine you end up with 2 brood boxes of bees
It was almost always a complete pain-- Folk would arrange to collect the bees then change their mind and want to come the following weekend.
They would agree the price then haggle to pay less when they came to collect
They would ask for hives to be kept and not sold then still haggle about the price
They told sob stories -- in one "deserving" case I agreed to sell the broodbox with floor crown board roof and 11 frames plus full colony of bees for £40 where my deserving needy customer then announced "well if they are that price I'd like 3"
I sold 2 complete hives new boxes from Stanfordham Broodbox super all frames bees roof floor crown board and excluder £100 x 2 to a hotel
They expected training and support forever so when the staff member looking after the bees left they expected me to drive there as often as it took to train someone else and get their honey crop
I have had some people buy bees in a wooden 5 frame nuc for £50 they let them die and came back for more I gave them the replacements free they let them die as well for the cost of some sugar syrup
I have had people ask me for a queen for their hive which swarmed and was queen less I give them the queen free they go away with it I ring up to see how it went
"Oh I think we had a queen in there after all" Ok what happened to the one I gave you  " we just let it go" Go where for gods sake
No! No! selling bees is not a prospect I could be dragged back to 
In fact when Perth and Angus were asked not to move bees or sell them after the EFB scare I was happy I just had to say "sorry no can do"
I met lot's of nice people selling them bees but also enough of the other kind to last me a lifetime

----------


## Jon

DR. I know exactly where you are coming from with that tale, especially the bit about lifetime support.

----------


## drumgerry

I think there's a danger that because we're all such bee enthusiasts we can try too hard to help people when they get bees - much as you describe DR.  For myself I don't mind the odd email if someone's in need.  But what I'm not prepared to do is make up for people's lack of effort to learn for themselves.  I think we all have to make it very clear to new beekeepers that we don't have the time to hold their hands when a bit of research or a quick scan of Ted Hooper's book would solve their problem.  

I don't think we have to trip over ourselves to please potential buyers when bees are in such demand these days.  But like I said I'll answer a few questions and help out where there is a genuine need or for a suitable fee (and I make no apology for that).  It's taken us years to acquire these skills and this knowledge guys.  We shouldn't be selling ourselves short!  In what other sphere would people be expecting decades worth of expertise for nothing?!

----------


## fatshark

Academia!

----------


## drumgerry

Fatshark - lecturers get paid!

----------


## gavin

> By the way ... what possible reason would anyone have for 1000 Chinese grafting tools?  Or any, for that matter.  They're not single use versions are they?


I accidentally put one through the wash the other week.  It came out as good as new.  Just thought I'd throw that one in in case there are any improverished academics (ha! contradiction in terms ... ) looking in.

----------


## fatshark

> Fatshark - lecturers get paid!


They get paid to lecture ... but the entire peer-review system, on which science is funded and published, is based on goodwill and is unpaid.

Gavin ... "Chinese grafting tool" and "It came out good as new" is not necessarily a strong recommendation  :Embarrassment: 

Just back from setting up my Ben Harden system for round 2 of grafting ... bees are in a great mood and so am I  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

> Years agp I used to sell some hives of bees when I had too many
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I met lot's of nice people selling them bees but also enough of the other kind to last me a lifetime


I've sent several people your way over the years and never actually met you (AFAIK).  They were all nice people as far as I could tell LOL!

Anyway, just wanted to say that I know you *gave* six colonies to a local social enterprise (and lots of your time), and I've always thought that an act of extreme generosity.

I used to give colonies away but am now selling as it does take work, and does cost me materials, time, petrol and honey.  I don't know anyone I've sold colonies to who you'd say was in the category of a PITA who does little to advance their own beekeeping skills, but I know they are around.  

You can blame/thank me for the advice not to move colonies out of Perth and Angus in 2009.  As EFB is in the Lothians and Aberdeenshire and much more under control than it was then I think folk should relax a little, although it is a disease that pops up after lying hidden (in bees possibly) so moving bees to completely unaffected areas must be wrong.

----------


## fatshark

DR and Jon
I sell nucs to beginners in our association, very rarely to anyone else. We are a large association and have a lot of beginners. My experience is generally very positive. We work hard to train them, operating a loan hive scheme for their first year and provide mentoring (not necessarily from the nuc vendor). They do sometimes need help, but they are generally grateful to receive it. In my first year I lost/killed the Q in my purchased nuc (I discovered later she was probably an import) and the guy I bought it off provided me a frame of eggs to get going again. I generally have queens spare and am usually happy to supply them to help careful beginners who are keen to learn.

Are your negative experiences with association members or Joe Public?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I accidentally put one through the wash the other week.  It came out as good as new.  Just thought I'd throw that one in in case there are any improverished academics (ha! contradiction in terms ... ) looking in.


I bought 20 of them for £5-00 because I pull the ends off loose the spring bend and break them in my bag or pocket
Sometimes the quill bit comes loose but they are great really (and the weapon of choice for blind grafters)

Jon and Drumgerry 
I know that's a list of moans but honestly it's the tip of the iceberg 
I would rather folk go to their local assoc and if I had bees available I would tell the assoc (even if I'm not a member)
If say Thornes sell a £300 hive and point the newbie at me for bees I want to help but sometimes wish I hadn't

----------


## Jon

> D
> Are your negative experiences with association members or Joe Public?


I would not describe my experiences as negative but you get such a demand on your time it is hard to keep up.
Some beekeepers are keen to go it alone with the occasional bit of advice but others want someone with them every time the crown board comes off. This is ok at the start but when you get someone in year 2 or 3 still looking for help all the time it is a bit much.
They maybe need to look at whether beekeeping is the right hobby for them at that point as you cannot do beekeeping by proxy.

What I try and do is channel all the advice and mentoring into the Monday and Thursday night sessions we run.

----------


## drumgerry

Maybe it's just me but I'm happy to draw a line under how much of my time I'm willing to give away for free.  Possibly it's because I have young-ish kids and I need to balance/prioritise how much time I spend on each of my activities.  People still coming to me for advice in year three would (if they're lucky) get a few links in an email and some advice to research the problem themselves.  Some time spent on here or the other forum would teach them a lot of what they need to know.  

You guys clearly have more patience than I do!

----------


## mbc

> Maybe it's just me but I'm happy to draw a line under how much of my time I'm willing to give away for free.  Possibly it's because I have young-ish kids and I need to balance/prioritise how much time I spend on each of my activities.  People still coming to me for advice in year three would (if they're lucky) get a few links in an email and some advice to research the problem themselves.  Some time spent on here or the other forum would teach them a lot of what they need to know.  
> 
> You guys clearly have more patience than I do!


Well said ! 
When life gets busy something has to give and in my opinion one of the first things to go should be time spent on people unwilling to help themselves.

----------


## drumgerry

Well...maybe I did sound a bit harsh on reflection.  I should say that I'm less bothered about spending time on the sharing of information.  In the spirit of sharing if you know what I mean.  And if it's something I know (probably from being enlightened on the matter by someone on here if truth be told!) and others don't.  But not endlessly repeating basic stuff which people can find out for themselves if they could be bothered.

----------


## Calum

DR I'll discuss the price if the hive is not full of bees, otherwise I'll tell them it's a sellers market and they can get to the back of the line. It's their petrol. 
Grafting tools - I sold 100 so far, 150 more and I covered my costs, after that its all profit, or I'll give the rest away, can't really be bothered with the footwork for that margin, no challenge in it either.

----------


## Calum

And never give a colony away to a newbie. They don't look after them the same if they were free. If they pay for them. Every colony I gifted anyone was not well taken care of. Sold colonies have a habit of surviving longer...

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> And never give a colony away to a newbie. They don't look after them the same if they were free. If they pay for them. Every colony I gifted anyone was not well taken care of. Sold colonies have a habit of surviving longer...


That's good advice Calum 
You feel you want to help get folk started but there is a right and a wrong way
I would never make a living selling anything like bees  :Smile: 
Turns out the chinese grafting tools were 10 for £4.98 (not 20) free P&P
Ebay is the place to sell them you will make a good profit easily on your bulk buy
Mostly they sell about £1-00 each as singles

----------


## fatshark

> Get a can/tub of ordinary white masonry paint, then some tubes of (water based) acrylic paint in primary colours from a local art shop.  Using the white as a base (in a jam jar or tin), mix as much of each colour as you like, as pastel or otherwise as you like.  All hives can be different colours and you'll end up with a Balamory-style apiary


Just tried this ... it's looking expensive, and not in a good way. It turns out that white masonry paint has an awful lot of white in it. I added 75ml of acrylic green and got *very* pale green. I suspect that even at 1:1 the colours would all end up very pale. 

I then added the remnants of a can of brick red masonry paint ... Yuck. A sort of pinky, greeny colour. Not good.

My recommendation would be "Don't do this at home" unless you can afford a lot of acrylic paint  :Smile:

----------


## drumgerry

Yep sorry Trog I did it too and I already had a tin of pale green paint.  It is now slightly less pale!

I did notice this on Ebay though and wondered if it might be more effective.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1510259477...84.m1423.l2649

----------


## madasafish

I paint poly/insulation with masonry paint. When dry  cover with Cuprinol Garden Shades....

----------


## fatshark

If you go to all the trouble to convert a Paynes poly nuc to 8 frames ...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk 21373479396.633761.jpg

... make sure you use 8 frames !

----------


## Jon

And make one of them drone comb to keep them happy.

----------


## fatshark

Hmmm .... less sure of that. I want them to build up, not get swamped with drones. I think an expanding nuc has less need of drones and suspect that a full frame of drone comb might encourage them to think about early swarm preparations. I might consider adding a shallow frame and let them build what they want below ... except I've just used my last few (and use drone foundation in supers anyway D'oh!)

----------


## drumgerry

Hey Fatshark - looks like they've built their own drone comb there to save you the bother!

----------


## Jon

> Hey Fatshark - looks like they've built their own drone comb there to save you the bother!


That's what I was getting at!
The nuc is obviously strong enough to think of making a few drones.

----------


## gavin

I have to say that despite the talk of thin roofs, seemingly smallish populations of bees (in my 6-frame versions) can sustain wall-to-wall rapid expansion when conditions are right.  The insulation must be contributing to their success.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Bees do build up quickly in the Paynes Nucs

Fatshark
They might like a bit more leg room in a full size hive  :Smile:  

I just moved the swarm I put in a Paynes Nuc not long ago
They were on 6 frames of which 5 frames of brood now
Two brood boxes, Big spacers and 6 frames of foundation in the top box over the brood
1:1 syrup to help them draw out the wax 
Was a bit dull today they are Buckfast/Italian type bees very healthy slightly grumpy (not followers though)

----------


## gavin

One with wall-to-wall brood and eggs is now settling in to a full sized wooden National in Sylvia's garden.  Another is doing the same in the grounds of Hillcrest in Dundee.  One concern is that there seem too few bees for the brood especially when placed in a large wooden hive, but before a week is up there will be maybe 3 frames of brood hatching producing 6 frames of bees to help the effort.  I'm sure that if they were in a wooden box (or even a correx one) from the start they would not build so quickly.

All fed completely on floral forage of one kind or another  :Smile: .  Rape, sycamore, fruit, hawthorn and now ragwort, lime, spring rape, bramble and clover.  Willowherb is just coming out too.  Saw decent stands of bell heather in full flower in the Sidlaws tonight too.

----------


## fatshark

> Bees do build up quickly in the Paynes Nucs
> 
> Fatshark
> They might like a bit more leg room in a full size hive


I know ...

I have an ongoing box shortage ... or more precisely roof shortage. I think the only unused one is on my bait hive in my garden ... and that was getting a lot of attention this evening, so I'm loath to dismantle it for a day or two.  There were so many scouts about I nearly had to put a veil on to run a hairdryer over the last few supers (something else I've run out of)  of foundation before taking them out to the apiary this evening. The smell of warm wax had them appearing in droves.

Another swarm would be welcome. We still have beginners waiting for bees and I have more queens coming on stream to requeen swarms or make up nucs.  I tend to give the unwanted Q from the swarm away, although I'm aware I should probably sacrifice her to improve the quality of local queens.  Perhaps I should only donate them to distant friends?!  I think I've handed out three on this week.

So, the bait hive stays until Saturday. If the swarm isn't here by then I'll rehouse the Paynes nuc ...

PS The equipment shortage isn't so bad I've been reduced to using my two MB poly Nationals. These are tucked down an alley at the side of the house, unused and definitely unloved. I should switch one of them for the bait hive ... and then flog the swarm (if it appears) and the poly hive it's in ;-)

PPS Jon is about to remind me about Correx roofs ... rightly. I only have one substantial sheet left and was going to use it to make dividers for 'Twinstock' 2x3 frame nucs.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Fatshark
I sympathise with the equipment shortage 
I'm ok for boxes but same as yourself its floors and roofs ,crown boards etc that are in short supply 
I'm going to have to make some replacement stuff this year
Lots of old toot getting pressed into service  :Smile:

----------


## fatshark

Of course, the other shortage I have is a "space shortage for places to hide stuff from the wife during the quiet parts of the season" ... Even now in mid-season I have a stack of ekes, clearers, Horsley boards, travel screens, QEs, split floors, unventilated floors, crown boards, experimental high entrances, hideous springy zinc QEs which I refuse to use and am slowly turning into sides for frame feeders etc etc., reaching to shoulder height. Imagine what it's like when the supers are returned, the colonies get united releasing roofs and brood boxes and even some stands reappear.

What? These? I've had them for ages ...

Yes, I'll try and stack them a bit better ...

No, they don't do flat pack brood boxes ...

----------


## prakel

> ....hideous springy zinc QEs which I refuse to use and am slowly turning into sides for frame feeders etc


? I already feel the regret for asking this ....but do they not leak?

----------


## Jon

No finer sight than a correx roof.
Last for years. Might even paint them some time.

prime genetic material.jpg

----------


## gavin

Blends in perfectly on an allotment, behind a shed in a back garden, or beside a municipal recycling centre.  Equally at home in an apiary for blind beekeepers.  Useful for reducing the likelihood of equipment theft.  There is almost no limit to their advantages.

----------


## gavin

Do you use correx for dummy boards?  That might be my next venture in correx beekeeping after a few years of happy use of the correx sheets Thornes supply with their mesh floors.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Do you use correx for dummy boards?


I made quite a few dummy boards with correx this spring, but I do worry a bit that all those tiny tunnels might become disease traps.  What do you think?
Kitta

----------


## gavin

In theory, yes.  They certainly accumulate dirt (and sometimes grow green algae) inside them when used for floor inserts.  However I'm sure that the bees can cope with most of the stuff likely to accumulate there, unless you have an outbreak of foulbrood.  I have wondered about running a bead of silicone sealant along the cut edges the next time I use a piece of correx but I doubt that I'll ever be organised enough to have sealant, correx and time all in the same place.

----------


## Jon

Use tape as well.

correx-box-insulated-dummy.jpg

----------


## fatshark

I've built a fine set of Correx fat dummies for my Ben Harden setup. Only took about 1.6 miles of Duck tape to seal them up securely. They work a treat. 

If you leave the ends unsealed they'll act as small hive beetle traps!

----------


## gavin

Nice to see two valued contributors of one mind and replying in unison ... 

Duck tape is something I'm likely to carry around with me, so I've no excuse.  

I seldom do anything unless I really enjoy doing it or am almost forced into it, and in this case it is the warping of these ply boards that was making me consider correx.  Thin dummies rather than fat ones.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...ing-the-splits

Correx may be easier cut into exactly the right shape than any other material, and resist warping.

Incidently these three-in-a-box setups are in use this year with a vengence - I have three with bees in. It seems to me that the virgins in them are acting more like they do in large colonies (they took their time before venturing out) whereas the Paynes boxes (back on topic!) mated earlier.  Perhaps the warmth of the other partitions and maybe the little gaps in the dividers made them bring in stores for a few weeks rather than get the next generation of bees on the go quickly.

----------


## Black Comb

I ventured into Aldi duck tape recently, apart from the price I was not impressed.
Currently using Mammoth tape which is good, but can't remember where I bought it.
I recently acquired a paynes nuc with bees, now transferred to full hive.
Seems flimsy compared to the MB stuff.

----------


## fatshark

> Nice to see two valued contributors of one mind and replying in unison ...


Jon ... is Gavin suggesting we have half a mind each ?

----------


## gavin

Conjoined at the hippocampus.  Maybe I shouldn't assume identical twin status until I have the chance to see how much cider or white wine FS can put away without even dropping his glass ...

Come to think of it, I've met both and didn't spot any family resemblance

----------


## Jon

It is either a case of great minds think alike or fools seldom differ.

----------


## madasafish

> It is either a case of great minds think alike or fools seldom differ.


Got to agree with that :-)

----------


## greengumbo

Where do you guys get correx from other than "FOR SALE" signs  :Wink: 

Is it the type of thing B&Q or homebase stock ? I need to make up some big dummy boards and a varroa board. 

Put MAQS on one of the poly hives on friday. Lots of white fume residue on the outside of the lovingly painted box. Farmer might not be happy with his brown wire fence either  :Wink:

----------


## Finno

Wait for next election - at least then you can feel the politicians are good for something!

P F

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Where do you guys get correx from other than "FOR SALE" signs 
> 
> Is it the type of thing B&Q or homebase stock ?


B&Q don't stock it, and they don't even use it for signs any more.  I bought some from an online store (which is now down for maintenance).  You have to buy a minimum amount, but I soon used up what I've bought.

I've also seen some for sale on eBay.
Kitta

----------


## GRIZZLY

We have a local sign maker who buys correx in bulk for his own use. I just toddle along to him and either get given his offcuts or purchase a piece for coppers if I need a larger size. He also has different thicknesses of board. Duck tape sticks it together very well and is waterproof as well. If you need to stick it together with an adhesive use "evo-stick" . You might need to roughen up the surfaces with coarse sandpaper to achieve satisfactory adhesion / bonding.

----------


## Dark Bee

> ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ........ If you need to stick it together with an adhesive use "evo-stick" . You might need to roughen up the surfaces with coarse sandpaper to achieve satisfactory adhesion / bonding.


You are probably aware of this, but it may help others; use a toothed spreader for contact adhesive, not a straight edged one. The difference in achieving adhesion with sheets of plastic laminate is significant - correx is unlikely to be significantly different.

----------


## greengumbo

> Where do you guys get correx from other than "FOR SALE" signs 
> 
> Is it the type of thing B&Q or homebase stock ? I need to make up some big dummy boards and a varroa board. 
> 
> Put MAQS on one of the poly hives on friday. Lots of white fume residue on the outside of the lovingly painted box. Farmer might not be happy with his brown wire fence either



Got a good deal on fleabay.

Cheers for the pointers.

----------


## fatshark

> Got a good deal on fleabay.
> 
> Cheers for the pointers.


Which one greengumbo?  I found a supplier via the guineapigforum (!) which was reasonably priced but I'm also looking for local sign printers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

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## greengumbo

> Which one greengumbo?  I found a supplier via the guineapigforum (!) which was reasonably priced but I'm also looking for local sign printers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2


PM sent !

Anyone else used MAQs by the way ? I had a about a hundred dead bees out front the day after applying. The varroa drop was quite high but has settled down now. Seems quite a harsh but effective treatment. I have a second hive about 30cm away that I didnt treat but that had a wee spike in varroa drop after treating its neighbours. The fumes must travel a fair bit.

----------


## gavin

> I found a supplier via the guineapigforum (!) .......


So _that's_ what you do with the rest of your time!

Had it once in a restaurant in Cuzco, high in the Andes.  It was OK, but perhaps a little over-rated.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> PM sent !
> 
> Anyone else used MAQs by the way ? I had a about a hundred dead bees out front the day after applying. The varroa drop was quite high but has settled down now. Seems quite a harsh but effective treatment. I have a second hive about 30cm away that I didnt treat but that had a wee spike in varroa drop after treating its neighbours. The fumes must travel a fair bit.


wonder if thats bees switching hives
Varroa hitch a ride on drones more often than workers I think

----------


## The Drone Ranger

[repeat post

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## fatshark

> wonder if thats bees switching hives
> Varroa hitch a ride on drones more often than workers I think


Interesting point ... but workers far outnumber drones (hopefully!) though this might be balanced a bit by drones drifting more. I'm not aware of seeing mites on drones more than workers ... other than in sealed brood obviously.  Saying that, mite levels seem very low at the moment presumably due to the slow spring build up.  We went through a 10cm patch of drone brood, both sides of the frame, and found no mites at all in a check last week.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

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## The Drone Ranger

> Interesting point ... but workers far outnumber drones (hopefully!) though this might be balanced a bit by drones drifting more. I'm not aware of seeing mites on drones more than workers ... other than in sealed brood obviously.  Saying that, mite levels seem very low at the moment presumably due to the slow spring build up.  We went through a 10cm patch of drone brood, both sides of the frame, and found no mites at all in a check last week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2


I am watching mite drops as always and test treated a hive just to check
Check some drone brood as well
The other day though I was in a hive checking and spotted a drone with a mite
caught him removed mite
Next day another hive, drones again hanging around inside. One had two mites on him caught him flung him out and he could fly just fine
Thin evidence I know but you don't often see mites on bees unless things are bad (coincidence maybe)
If drones are parasitised they are usually damaged and these guys were very fit
"Taxi for Varroa"

----------


## drumgerry

For the first time last week I saw a drone with DWV.  I'm hanging fire on varroa treatment till the first week of September when (if I'm lucky) I'll be taking off my heather honey.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> For the first time last week I saw a drone with DWV.  I'm hanging fire on varroa treatment till the first week of September when (if I'm lucky) I'll be taking off my heather honey.


Hi Drumgerry
The MAQS strips Greengumbo describes can be used with supers on apparently
I haven't had much to do with formic treatments but this one seems simple and safe

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## drumgerry

DR - my fears are probably unfounded but I've heard Formic treatments can lead to queen death and drone sterility!  I think I'll survive till early Sept when I can bang the Apivar on.

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## The Drone Ranger

I think it can kill the youngest brood so probably not a good late treatment
The blurb claims the queen loss is not greater with the strips than without
I like Apivar because even with brood it acts over a 2 week cycle nailing a lot of varroa as they emerge

----------


## fatshark

drumgerry helpfully posted details of an offer for MB poly Langstroth nucs a couple of months ago and has already posted details of his Langstroth to National conversion.

I've blatantly copied some of his tricks to create a 'twinstock' double three frame National nuc. I want these for queen mating, testing queens before sale/distribution and possibly for overwintering ... I'm also not sure they're going to work for any/all of these so wanted to do a non-destructive (reversible) conversion.

I built a slot in frame consisting of a central divider board (6mm ply) and end panels from 15 or 22 mm ply.  The latter are glued'n'screwed to the central panel only and seem secure enough, separated by the requisite space to take a National frame.  Since these boxes have opposing entrances this means that there's some unused space at either end, the frames being offset by a couple of inches (look at the pics, that'll save me typing a thousand words). The end panel nearest the entrance needs some scrap 6mm spacer material on it because of some internal moulding of the poly box.  I also added some 3mm strip to the top of the central divider - firstly to take the "integrated cover board" (er, sheet of polythene) and secondly to provide a little more space for the central frames to avoid crushing bees against the wall.  I've used top bee space, added some runners and a scrap of 3mm perspex to cover the dead space at the end opposite the entrance.  To avoid crushing bees during transit you also need to add a 'handle' to the perspex cover that stops the frames shifting one way and an additional filler at the other end ... I could have probably avoided this by better choice of wood, but all this lot came from the scrap box.

2.jpg 3.jpg 6.jpg 8.jpg 9.jpg

Since taking the photos I've (a) used the boxes successfully to check how well a batch of queens are laying and (b) drilled a 30mm hole through the end wall and covered it with zinc QE to convert what was the dead end space into a feeder that will take about 1.5 kg of fondant. Put the QE flush on the inside wall of the nuc otherwise the bees build brace comb in the hole ... don't use plastic, they're too thick and you end up rolling bees when lifting frames.  

The boxes are in use again with my last batch of queens needing mating.  

Good points of these boxes ... dense, high quality poly, removable floor, comfortably accommodate 2 x 3 frames (or seven at a squeeze without a divider), much thicker roof than the Paynes equivalent.

Bad points ... too many nooks and crannies to easily paint (I envy drumgerry's industrial sprayer thingy), 'feet' poorly spaced for a standard-sized National hive stand, entrance reducer a daft price from MB (and my correx botch is far from ideal). Finally, because of the need to have the divider reach the floor, it's not possible to stack one divided 'brood' box on top of another, for example to enable uniting of 2 x 3 frame nucs with a 6 frame nuc below.  This would be useful ...

I'll try and remember to update this thread if I get bees through the winter in these ...  :Big Grin:

----------


## Black Comb

Nice work PG.
When you open up to inspect, taking the top cover off, do the bees from each side mingle and fight?

----------


## fatshark

PG?

No, no fighting at all ... the poly sheet is pinned along the central divider. You can open one side or the other. I just use the hive tool to stop it from folding back over. 

With top bee space there's not too much propolis on the poly sheet. I have a standard brood box split in this way with bottom bee space. They tend to propolis the sheet to the tops of the frames over time. Once it's too messy I just rip it off and pin another in place.

----------


## Black Comb

PG, sorry, end of a long day.

Thank you FS.

----------


## prakel

> ...When you open up to inspect, taking the top cover off, do the bees from each side mingle and fight?


using various double and treble boxes without (normally) bothering with inner covers I've never seen any noticeable fighting between the different sides although I'm sure that they do mingle a little -to no great extent. One interesting aspect of their behaviour shows through when one side has become queenless; taking advantage of the open hive during a normal inspection you'll often see the queenless colony walk, in an orderly way over the division and join the queen right side without any visible issue whatsoever. Quite a spectacle to see.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Prakel
I hadn't thought about it before but I suppose the same is true when you use a Snelgrove board the bees have two queens but they don't fight when you lift the top box down
If you use a solid floor and make a vertical split then there is fighting when the top box comes off to inspect the bottom one because they are two separate hives

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## prakel

A good point there DR. 

I've also heard of, but never witnessed, queenless bees in one side of a twin box abandoning their section, walking around the side and peacefully entering the other nuc by walking through the door*. In my experience (edit: when separated by cover boards) although a few might drift off the bulk appear to sit there until they simply fade away. 

*I'd definitely be interested to hear of any personal observations of such behaviour from other members.

----------


## gavin

I regularly use three in a box splits with cover boards and have just seen the apparently (?) gradual depletion of the queenless splits.  Interesting to read of walking across. I'll look out for it. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## prakel

> ...I suppose the same is true when you use a Snelgrove board the bees have two queens but they don't fight when you lift the top box down
> If you use a solid floor and make a vertical split then there is fighting when the top box comes off to inspect the bottom one because they are two separate hives


I know that there are plenty of write ups on two queen systems available to us but an easily accessible discussion can be found in those 'Sustainable Apiary' videos of Michael Palmer (possibly part 2) where he discusses running two nucs in a split box with just an excluder to separate them from communal supers; as long as the queens are confined to their own compartment the rest of the bees get on OK.

----------


## fatshark

That's interesting prakel but what's the advantage if two nuc-sized boxes? Surely the benefits come from a two queen system heaving with bees and consequently storing loads of nectar. I ran a 'Twinstock' split brood box last year and had to take frames out to stop them boiling over. In fairness I've not watched the Palmer videos all the way through and probably will now wait to see him at the National Honey Show ... apologies if the answer is in part 2 of the Sustainable Apiary.

----------


## prakel

He wasn't specifically using a two queen system as such but rather, making the point that the nucs can 'overflow' storage into a communal super without fighting. It was just an easy example for me to draw attention to. He does go on to mention that using the supers can create a stores deficit in the nuc boxes when it comes to preparing for winter -he may even have discontinued the practice on those grounds but I'd have to refresh my memory on that one.

----------


## prakel

> Bad points ... Finally, because of the need to have the divider reach the floor, it's not possible to stack one divided 'brood' box on top of another, for example to enable uniting of 2 x 3 frame nucs with a 6 frame nuc below.  This would be useful ...
> 
> I'll try and remember to update this thread if I get bees through the winter in these ...


Hi fatshark, just a thought on this one, would it be possible to cut down the divider so that it's the same depth as the box and to add a central partition to the floor? Maybe the interlocking design of these boxes would make the whole thing just that bit too fiddly to justify? I've no hands on experience with these boxes but they do look the part (nice conversion solution too).

----------


## BYF

I think you will find that a divided box on top of a divided box while it can be done is not worth the effort.  Tricky to deal with.  Can not easily look below on one half, etc.  He uses a divided box downstairs and 4 frame nuc boxes upstairs- one on each side.  They fit over the box below and take a US style telescoping cover.




> Hi fatshark, just a thought on this one, would it be possible to cut down the divider so that it's the same depth as the box and to add a central partition to the floor? Maybe the interlocking design of these boxes would make the whole thing just that bit too fiddly to justify? I've no hands on experience with these boxes but they do look the part (nice conversion solution too).

----------


## fatshark

> Hi fatshark, just a thought on this one, would it be possible to cut down the divider so that it's the same depth as the box and to add a central partition to the floor? Maybe the interlocking design of these boxes would make the whole thing just that bit too fiddly to justify? I've no hands on experience with these boxes but they do look the part (nice conversion solution too).


That might work but would be a bit tricky to make. For the central divider it would be straightforward. There are 'slots' to accommodate it moulded into both the body and the floor sections of the poly.  However, since this is also a Langstroth to National conversion I would also have to have upper and lower end panels splitting the same way.  Possibly beyond my limited wood butchery skills.

Welcome to the forum BYF ... my real interest is not to have stacked divided boxes. Instead it is to allow me to unite an upper divided box (for example in which two queens have been mated, checked for performance and then sold/donated/used to requeen a production hive) with a lower box that is undivided. If the lower is queenright and the upper two are not a standard newspaper unite would - within a few days - generate 12 frames which could then be moved to a standard National brood box.

This isn't a deal breaker, just something that might suit the way I tidy up colonies at the end of the season.

----------


## prakel

> I think you will find that a divided box on top of a divided box while it can be done is not worth the effort.  Tricky to deal with.  Can not easily look below on one half, etc.  He uses a divided box downstairs and 4 frame nuc boxes upstairs- one on each side.  They fit over the box below and take a US style telescoping cover.


Hi BYF, good to see you posting! I'd totally agree on this one myself, but think that fatshark was referring more to the option of being able to unite the two (3 comb) nucs in a divided box to a single 6 comb nuc... the simplest way of course might just be to add the 6 comb box above the divided nuc and either close one of the entrances from the start or sort that aspect out when the unite has been completed. 

I think it's the specific nature of the division which also incorporates 'reducers' and feeder compartments to allow long lugged British style frames to be used in a box designed for the Langstroth system that's muddying the water a little; my own home made nucs are designed so that the division can simply be pulled out to effect uniting, similar to what I imagine you guy's often use.

[edit: I've cross posted with fatshark on this subject. His post either wasn't showing on my screen through some fault when I started typing or, my photos took even longer to load that it felt like!].

At the risk of drifting too far off the topic of poly hive musing(!), a couple of shots of my three way boxes with and with out divisions... (the combined box is showing variances in some of my early frame spacing attempts -it's taken some error along with the trials to get to the point where I think I've solved the issue. Now I just need to gradually respace everything to a standard pattern).

----------


## fatshark

> ... the simplest way of course might just be to add the 6 comb box above the divided nuc and either close one of the entrances from the start or sort that aspect out when the unite has been completed.


D'oh! Why didn't I think of that? That would work. I think it's because I always do unites with the queen in the bottom box, almost always moving the weaker colony. With your suggestion this would be reversed. Funny how habit takes precedence over common sense.

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## lindsay s

I have just purchased two Everynucs from Thrones for my Smith frames. Their half the price of wooden nucs so I thought I would give them a go. Before they arrived I was having nightmares about hacking them to bits with my hive tools, setting fire to them with my smoker and wondering  how long it would be before they ended up in Norway. They have arrived so here are my first impressions.
The brood box is for much bigger frames but has been adapted by adding the wooden feeder.
The Everynuc is strong and it can take 15 stone kneeling on the top of it (that was me) so I’ll have no worries about weighing them down.
The clear plastic inner cover should stop the bees from being crushed when the roof goes on but is liable to sag in the middle. I’ll use a strip of wood to support it which I’m sure the bees will cover in propolis.
The top bee space is a bit narrow but I’ll be able to adapt it.
35-40mm clearance between the bottom of my frames and the mesh floor so I’ll expect to see plenty of brace comb
The 175mm wide entrance will definitely have to be closed down; I’ll use a bit of mesh so the air can flow through.      
My next task is to give them a lick of paint. Being a newbe to this poly lark I’ve got two questions.1 I don’t intend to use the wooden feeders so does it matter if their at the front or the back of the brood box. I don’t think it will make any difference to the warmth of the nuc but I might be wrong. 2 Given the clearance between the bottom of the frames and the floor I intend to leave the inspection tray closed to cut down on the draught will this be ok.

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## Mellifera Crofter

I don't know that box, Lindsay, but in answer to one of your questions, I leave the varroa trays in, in my poly hives. I've drilled holes in some, but in others I think the fit is loose enough to allow for ventilation - or you can just pull it slightly back.

How can you move the feeder to the front as it seems to have a dedicated space at the back?

What is the piece leaning against the wall between the roof and brood box?
Kitta

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## Little_John

Just in case it's relevant to this thread - here are some pics of the first of the "six-and-a-half-frame" NUCs I made a while ago, which I've pretty-much standardised on now. Have made a *lot* of these ... 
2x3-frame for mating, and 6-frame otherwise. DN4's - top *and* bottom bee-spaces. The only really tedious part is making the divider, which needs to be a precision fit - hence it lives in the box (as well as being numbered as per the box). There are 2x 22mm holes at either end, so that one opening can be selected for each half at opposite ends when in 'mating mode'. I went on to cut holes in the split crown board for inverted jar feeders, fitted 'supers' over (to house the jars plus insulation), and retro-fitted closable mesh floors. They work fine, albeit they take a lot of bees to initially prime, unlike the mini-NUCs. 











LJ

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## mbc

Nice work LJ  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> The comments regarding rodents are 'near the bone' at present with the carnage that has been inflicted on some of my mini-plus hives over the last month.


A rat munched a huge hole into two swienty mini nuc and then 3 apideas which were in storage during the winter
thats my fault trying to store them with the comb still in them 
Very expensive mistake that

----------


## lindsay s

> I don't know that box, Lindsay, but in answer to one of your questions, I leave the varroa trays in, in my poly hives. I've drilled holes in some, but in others I think the fit is loose enough to allow for ventilation - or you can just pull it slightly back.
> 
> How can you move the feeder to the front as it seems to have a dedicated space at the back?
> 
> What is the piece leaning against the wall between the roof and brood box?
> Kitta


Thornes are importing them from Germany. I think they are made in Langstroth size and are adapted by adding the wooden feeder and/or eke to fit other sizes of frames. The brood box fits the same in either direction. The piece you are asking about is a poly top feeder.
p.s. Too cold for the bees today Ill be painting the nucs instead.

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## fatshark

Nice job LJ

Are those entrance plugs (in place) or tubes that protrude? I presume the former. 

I've done pretty much the same thing by dividing ModernBeekeeping poly Langstroth nucs with a 5mm ply separator. These worked well as mating nucs last year and - if the bl**dy weather improves a bit - will be back in action shortly.

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## greengumbo

> Nice job LJ
> 
> Are those entrance plugs (in place) or tubes that protrude? I presume the former. 
> 
> I've done pretty much the same thing by dividing ModernBeekeeping poly Langstroth nucs with a 5mm ply separator. These worked well as mating nucs last year and - if the bl**dy weather improves a bit - will be back in action shortly.


The weather has really kyboshed my queen rearing. Flat out at work and with kids so actually not fussed right now but if it continues.....grrrrrr.

My paynes nuc got munched by mice during winter. Fixed with expanding foam and they will be fine.

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## Little_John

> Nice job LJ
> 
> Are those entrance plugs (in place) or tubes that protrude? I presume the former. 
> 
> I've done pretty much the same thing by dividing ModernBeekeeping poly Langstroth nucs with a 5mm ply separator. These worked well as mating nucs last year and - if the bl**dy weather improves a bit - will be back in action shortly.


Those are: 22mm holes = standard wine bottle corks (ok, so you've now spotted the alternative agenda - "You see dear, I *have * to open another bottle - the cork's needed for beekeeping ...").  :Wink: 

But - it's like you've read my mind. The long-term plan is to house around 50 of these NUCs in a shed, connected to the outside by short lengths of tubing. Will start-off with half-a-dozen, and work up. But - haven't got around to making the shed yet.

Bl##dy weather - tell me about it ...

LJ

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## fatshark

Multi-tasking … brilliant. 
I've given up on wine bottles with corks … takes too long to open them. I'm desperately looking for a use for 7439 screw tops.
I overwinter mini-nucs in a greenhouse with 'tubes' to the outside (in my case 50mm osmapipe (?)). Make sure the tube doesn't protrude or the bees can't find their way back in.

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## prakel

> A rat munched a huge hole into two swienty mini nuc and then 3 apideas which were in storage during the winter
> thats my fault trying to store them with the comb still in them 
> Very expensive mistake that


When I uploaded some photos of the damage (I seem to have since deleted the album) Calum suggested a German trick of mixing sand into the paint as a good deterrent. I reckon that when the bees finally raise the funds to make an order of the 'other' mini plus brood bodies worthwhile I'll be following his advice.

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## HJBee

I'm in the market for a Poly Nuc, noticed a few of you have bought the Thornes ones. Now you've had them a while, would  you recommend (seem the cheapest). H

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## fatshark

Anyone here bought the Thorne Everynuc 2 for Nationals? I've just rec'd 6 - ordered sight unseen - and the bee space doesn't look correct around the sides of the frames. More like a centimetre. They are good and solid, 4cm thick pretty much throughout. Easy to paint as they are smooth. Nice integrated mesh floor and Varroa pull out tray. They are obviously designed for Langstroth frames, with a variable width integral feeder to reduce the length for other sizes. One frame end rests on the edge of the feeder, not on a metal frame runner. The entrance is too big for a nuc … full width and about 1cm high.

These are the more expensive of the two Thorne poly nuc offerings … interested (like HLBee) in what others think.

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## lindsay s

Hello Fatshark and HJBee 
See my posts on pages 28 and 29 of this thread. Everything is running late up here this year. I gave them 3 coats of emulsion paint and altered the height of the wooden feeders to give them partial top bee space at one end. Ive not using the wooden feeders so Ive covered the tops with duct tape and I have used mesh to close down the entrances to about 45mm wide. Because the brood box can fit either way I decided to leave the feeder at the back. At the moment I have two frames of brood and two frames of stores in the nucs (made from splitting hives) and once the queens are mated and laying I will move the bees into full size hives. I want to build the colonies up by adding more brood and store frames before winter. The clear plastic inner cover is good because you can slide it on and you wont crush the bees when you put the roof on but watch out because it can blow off in the wind. The nucs are just for short term use so the bees will only be in them for a few weeks.

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## HJBee

Thanks Lindsay, do you think the paint will make cleaning easier! H

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## fatshark

Thanks from me as well Lindsay. I'm going to try and add a frame runner to the inside upper lip of the feeder. I'd intending to overwinter colonies in these - they're much more solidly built than the Paynes boxes - but suspect they might make a mess of things with the bee space.

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## lindsay s

HJBee I just painted the outside of the nucs to protect them from the weather. Im not sure about cleaning the insides.
Fatshark overwintering is something Im considering for the future. How are you planning to stock them for this winter? My main worry is getting the balance right between bees and stores. For example to many bees and they will run out stores or not enough bees and they will dwindle away.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Fatshark overwintering is something I’m considering for the future. How are you planning to stock them for this winter? My main worry is getting the balance right between bees and stores. For example to many bees and they will run out stores or not enough bees and they will dwindle away.


One thing I like about a Paynes poly nuc is the eke which I use to house over-the-head candy for winter.  I've modified the plastic crown board with a hole and place the candy, in an upturned tub, above the hole, and then surround the tub with insulation.  I've not seen either of the two Thornes poly nucs, but the lack of an eke has so far stopped me being interested in them.

Kitta

IMG_5160.jpg

----------


## fatshark

Hi Kitta … I built homemade ekes for my Paynes boxes. Same idea, works well. However, the Paynes boxes are thinner, so they'll need more stores. 

Linsday … I let the bees determine the balance. I have queens out in mating nucs now. When these are ready (~2 weeks) I'll split full colonies up, giving two frames of brood and adhering bees, a shake of additional bees together with an additional frame of stores, then add the mated queen. By early August she should be going strong and has plenty of time to build up before I feed them up for winter. I usually use fondant so they tend to take this down relatively slowly, rather than packing out the box like they do on syrup. I've overwintered in ply and the Paynes boxes when made up mid season before and haven't had an issue.

Regarding the feeder. Did you cut the lugs down in depth so it sat a little lower in the box?

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## lindsay s

Kitta the Thornes 14x12 Everynuc has a 60mm eke. Theres also an Everynuc poly feeder. If the mesh is removed from the feeder the bees will have easy access to candy.
Fatshark the answer to your question is yes but I havent altered the height of the frame runner at the other end of the box (I didnt want to hack it to bits). So the result is top bee space only at one end of the box, its not very satisfactory but is better than nothing.

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## fatshark

Check the manufacturer of the new plastic crownboard on the Everynuc 

20140713-0007.jpg

 :Wink: 

PS Lindsay, half finished the painting, butchery one evening this week

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## prakel

Would there not be enough space, if you throw the naff looking feeder away, to insert new walls at each end of the box to accommodate the lugs of what would now be a centralized BS frame. If so. you could incorporate top bee space quite easily.

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## fatshark

I've considered that Prakel. I'm beginning to think that these boxes are another reason I should have used Langstroth from the outset … too late now though  :Frown: 

I actually think the easiest way to do this would be to just replace the feeder with a big block of Kingspan faced with ply at one end of the box only.

Lindsay has gaffer-taped up the feeder. The edge of the feeder - on the three I've looked at so far - is about 4 mm higher than the frame runner at the other end of the box. I'm currently thinking of dropping the feeder enough to add a frame runner to the edge of the feeder, giving me top bee space *and* easier manipulations.

Finally, in fairness the feeder might look rubbish but it's a useful volume, sealed on the inside and contains a float.

PS I meant to add that painting these boxes is a joy for anyone who has previously painted the Paradise BeeBoxes sold by ModernBeekeeping … far fewer nooks and crannies.

----------


## prakel

> I actually think the easiest way to do this would be to just replace the feeder with a big block of Kingspan


That's exactly what I've now done with these economy mating nucs although their days are numbered and they'll be cut down during the winter to make something else. Of the many designs I've so far trialled it's the one I like the least; some like it, but it's not for me:

SAM_2410.jpgSAM_2417.jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Kitta the Thornes 14x12 Everynuc has a 60mm eke. ...


Thanks Lindsay.  I hope I'll soon have an excuse to drive down south and stop at Thornes to see what they're like.
Kitta

----------


## lindsay s

Hi Fatshark I can see in another thread that you have started to use your Everynucs. Are you planning to use all of them this year and which end of the brood box are you leaving the wooden feeders? Ive just finished using mine and didnt have any problems with brace comb because the bees were only in them a short time. The two splits I made up now have mated and laying queens and have been moved into Smith hives. Im also boosting them with brood and stores from other hives.

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## fatshark

Hi Lindsay
I've got three in use and have to find time to paint another three. I've arranged the wooden feeders at the opposite end to the entrance. I'm intending to overwinter colonies in them. I've made a few modifications before putting them into service. This included cutting some depth off the feeder lugs to make top bee space throughout the box (!) and adding a glued on plastic runner to the inside edge of the feeder to make frame manipulation a bit easier. I also added a cross bar to the feeder to stop frames sliding back and forwards … I'll be moving them  a couple of times.

First impressions are pretty good. They are solid and well made. I wish the entrance was a bit smaller and am going to have to reduce them a bit. I think the Varroa tray is a bit of a gimmick and I wish they had some sort of handholds. These are minor quibbles … lets see how they do over the next few months.

Of the three types of poly nucs I own, I'd say these were the best (so far) but they're far from perfect.

Cheers

----------


## Jon

Bought two Swienty national brood boxes at Gormanston last week so will be giving those a trial.
28 Euro each.
Who is the cheapest UK supplier for these? C Wynne Jones charge a surcharge to NI. Yah boo!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I suppose you bought the new design boxes with the raised lug rest, Jon?

The top of the frames are now flush with the top of the boxes, and there is no lug recess at the bottom of the boxes, so I found that the bees now propolise the frames on to the next box causing mayhem when I tried to lift a box off the hive.  The old boxes have no lug raise (a flaw), but the top of the frames end about 2mm below the top of the box walls.  I think that slight gap makes a bit of a difference because I've not had this problem with the old boxes.  A lug recess would be nice.  I've since smeared the top of the boxes and the lugs with Vaseline.  That helps a bit - just a bit.  I still have to find an ideal poly hive.  Kitta

----------


## Beefever

Actually I have been looking at those Swenty brood boxes and thinking about a division board to over winter two nucs. I’ve been told that the boxes are compatible with national wooden gear as well.  Shame the roof is about the same price as a brood box though and the edge along the frame ends look rather thin.

----------


## fatshark

I've finally got round to converting my last couple of Modern Beekeeping/Paradise Honey 6 frame Langstroth poly nucs to take Nationals. Drumgerry posted a similar conversion earlier in this thread. I bought half a dozen of these in the 2013 sales and converted them into 2 x 3 frame Nationals for queen mating (with rather variable results due to my own stupidity  hint - it's best if the virgin queens can't get from one partition to the other  :Frown: ). I borrowed heavily from the Thornes Everynuc 2 design and ended up with something with top beespace, the correct beespace at each end (which the Everynuc doesn't have) and an integral feeder. The latter still needs a bar of some sort across the top to stop the frames shifting 'back' when in transport. The changes are non-destructive - I can convert it back to take Langstroths should the need arise (_e.g._ once Mann Lake achieves total market dominance). 

20141229-0072.jpg

I'm overwintering bees in the Everynucs and they're doing very well. I've no doubt these butchered MB equivalents will be equally suitable. It's worth noting that the MB poly nucs are listed at £37 (but sometimes reduced to £29 in the sales). In comparison, the Everynucs are over £47. Once I'd got the measurements sorted it only took about 45 minutes, some wood from the scraps box and a bad cut to my index finger to make the conversion - easily worth the £18 saving.

_Happy New Year_

----------


## drumgerry

I'm liking your conversion better than mine fatshark!  That integral feeder might be more useful than closing the excess off completely as I've done.  This from the man who has spent some time ripping internal feeders out of Paynes nucs to give 8 frame near-hives.  I like the Paynes ones as 8 framers but you've given me something to think about with my MB nucs.

----------


## fatshark

The equivalent feeder on the Everynuc works well. I usually don't bother with syrup but instead simply drop in large slices of fondant (though I've sealed these new ones with melted wax anyway). I also butchered my Paynes boxes … they're better as 8 frame boxes and light enough to hold at arms length up a ladder when catching swarms  :Wink:

----------


## drumgerry

Ah yes swarms....I've heard of those.  Something to do with bees and trees aren't they?!   :Wink:

----------


## Black Comb

I need to do this with some of my Swienty polynucs.
How did you fix the ply? Was it just a tight fit or did you nail or glue?

----------


## drumgerry

I screwed through from the outside Black Comb but I'm sure a tight press fit, to be followed by the bees and some propolis, would have been sufficient.

----------


## fatshark

My DIY 'tolerances' are generally pretty poor, some of the ply fitted well, other bits did not … the ply is therefore fixed using two screws through the end panel of the nuc box. Due to the internal mouldings on these boxes - which I wanted to retain - there is a stripwood spacer on the back face of each piece of ply. The screws only need to be sunk into this spacer by a few millimetres. I made some crappy wooden 'load spreaders' as I didn't have any suitable washers … in due course (_i.e._ once they rot away completely) these will be replaced with something more permanent. Without doing this it's easy to bury the screw into the relatively soft poly. 

20141229-0066.jpg

Note added … I've used Gorilla glue and Screwfix 'Mega Grip' or similar quite successfully when butchering other poly boxes, but wanted this to be easily reversible.

----------


## drumgerry

You need to get the beekeepers friend Fatshark aka a small-ish table saw.  I couldn't saw a straight line in anything by hand but it's a doddle with this.  Add in a cross cut mitre saw and you're properly sorted!

----------


## fatshark

article-2339321-1A3FE026000005DC-477_634x354.jpg

Bloodloss I can cope with  digits (or limbs) I need. I'll stick with my tenon saw and bread knife  :Wink: 

PS for the squeamish  the picture is of prosthetic fingers. No digits were harmed in the writing of this post.

----------


## Black Comb

Thanks.
I am of the same ilk as Gerry, table saw is my friend.
I think somewhere in the past I have seen bluetack mentioned but not sure if this was a serious suggestion.

----------


## Poly Hive

So you are not too handy and want a fit and be able to reverse it. Silicone works here.  :Smile: 

I have a pain hive and it is getting sold on this year. It's a total pain and the bees do not like it. I am dumping another brand too. Pure Swienty from now on. 

PH

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Pure Swienty from now on. 
> 
> PH


That's what I wanted to do, but the new design is so full of flaws that I'm not sure what to do now - but it seems that you're happy with them.
Kitta

----------


## drumgerry

Me too Kitta.  Too many disadvantages to the Swienty and the Paynes although admittedly fewer with the former.  Not seeing how much I'm gaining by body swerving cedar but as it is and for the forseeable future I'll be having a mix of all three.

----------


## Jon

I bought 15 of the old style Swienty brood boxes from C Wynne Jones in November so I will report back on those when I have them in use.

----------


## Poly Hive

Sorry for the delay Kitta but what "flaws" are you referring to please?  If it is the ten frames thing well some claim to get 11 in but tbh I run double broods so it makes no odds to me.  :Smile: 

On another point, say a roof costs £10? How much ply can you buy for that? I have a local timber merchant and he sells off odd bits for £2 or £3 k? My saw at the moment cost £100 and works to a point. My good one is in storage but seesh I miss it. So my timber roofs fit my polys and have deep sides and at leat 2" of insulation. That works nicely. I would suggest coating with a fibreglass resin mix....

PH

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Sorry for the delay Kitta but what "flaws" are you referring to please?  If it is the ten frames thing ... 
> PH


No, not the ten-frame thing, PH - that doesn't bother me at all.  I just meant flaws with the new design.

The old design had only two flaws: no lug raise, and no varroa tray.  (On an association visit to MM's heather apairies I could see that those two points do not bother him - but they bothered me.)

First the new boxes:  They added lug rests, but they're so high that the frames' lugs touch the box above them, and the bees then propolise the frames tightly to the box above.  It gave me quite a shock the first time I lifted a box and all the frames from below lifted with the box.  The bees were very annoyed as well.  Smearing the box sides and frame lugs with Vaseline does not help much either.

They've now discontinued the roof because it was really ridiculous.  It had a tiny little lip - no overhang as in the previous design.  The hives they now sell are an aesthetic mismatch with new boxes and floor, but the old roof - but that does not affect management, of course.

The floor: They've added varroa trays but I find them difficult to insert or pull out.  They're very, very tight-fitting.  I'm not keen on the entrance either.  The floor slopes up towards the entrance so that the box creates a kind of canopy above the bees entering the hive.  I find that kind of entrance difficult to close up with foam or sponges for moving.  The old floor and entrance was so much easier (apart from not having a varroa tray).

Of all my quibbles, it's the lug-rest issue that bothers me most.  If I buy another hive, then I might remove them altogether, or try to lower them somehow.

Kitta

----------


## Poly Hive

Interesting. I haven't found the spacing to be out? The hive is bottom bee space so there should'nt be an issue. I started bees with a BBS National and when I met in with poly Lang two years later it was a revelation. I changed all my kit to TBS and never looked back as it is much faster to work. Now I am stuffed with BBS and detest it but that's the way they are made and as I sell bees I am pretty much forced to use Nationals.My honest preference is for Poly Lang.  Nor do varroa trays. If I want to do a check I put a plywood sheet under the floor. I haven't done that for some years as I routinely check my drone brood. I haven't seen a mite for some 6 years now since I began using Oxalic, which was applied this year a few days ago in the hard frost we had. 

I noted somewhere on this thread the old disease chestnut. The answer is here, 11 up from the bottom of the pdf list. http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=167

PH

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Interesting. I haven't found the spacing to be out? The hive is bottom bee space so there should'nt be an issue.  ...


Are you using the new Swienties, PH?  I've attached photos I used on the other forum.  Left is the new design, on the right is the old design.  You can see that in the new design, with the lug rests in place, the frames are level with the rim, and as there is no lug recess in the box above, they get propolised to the box above.  That does not happen with the old design (but there aren't any raised lug rests either). (The grey stuff in the photo of the old design (on the right) is my wool insulation in an eke in use - I did not have a free box available to photograph.)
Kitta

Swienty, new design.jpg Swienty, old design.jpg

----------


## gavin

Hi Kitta 

Thanks for the pictures.  I have used the local association's old design Swienty Poly Nationals (and a couple of Smiths, which are different of course) for a few years now.  The frames in the Nationals are completely flush with the top edge of the box as far as I recall, and I have also had that issue with two brood boxes being glued together rather effectively around the frame lugs when there are no intervening boards to give a gap.  They do indeed have no space under the box to give a gap above the frame lugs.  But your picture is very clear so I don't understand why your box is like that and perhaps I had best go and have another look!

G.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...perhaps I had best go and have another look!
> 
> G.


Yes, please, Gavin.  That will be interesting.  Perhaps somebody has improvised a raised lug rest on your association old-style Swienties - or are you the only one in charge?
Kitta

----------


## Black Comb

MC, are these Swienty (new and old) bottom bee space?

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, they are - both of them.
Kitta

----------


## Poly Hive

All Nats are supposed to be BBS I believe. 

I looked at some of my broods I bought two years ago now and the frames are dead level with the walls. I vaguely remember struggling a bit to separate two broods this last season but the hive tool sorted that out a bit quick. All mine are double broods, I tried one colony on three but got a brood of honey which was a bit inconvenient. LOL

PH

----------


## drumgerry

Just clocked that the Swienty Nats have had a redesign after reading a little of this thread and looking at the C Wynne Jones page.  Is it worth going back a few pages for more discussion of the new design that I missed.  My experience is with the old style Denrosa/Swienty Nats.  I have about 8 full hives of these - not all in current use.  The main attraction to me was they were said to compatible with wooden kit.  And they are.....up to a certain point.  Some of the flaws in the design I have found are:

the floor doesn't have full width/length varroa mesh which make mite drop assessments all but pointless;

the wood/poly compatibility is marginal as please forgive me if my recollection is faulty but I don't think the spaces between the 10 frames in the polys and those in the 11 frame standard wooden nationals line up - talking about standard DN4 top bars here with a dummy at one end of an 11 frame wooden box;

the poly Ashforth feeder has sloping sides which annoy me and has an entirely flat bottom which is totally stupid and forces me to build a 6mm rim around it to avoid killing bees taking it on and off;

like Kitta says there are no raised frame runners and to put these in would involve excavating the poly to make a recess and who's going to do that?  

I like that they take seconds to assemble and are light and pretty durable but as I said earlier I'm not seeing any massive benefits to me or the bees over ordinary cedar Nats.

I'd be interested to hear how the redesign compares to the Denrosa version and if there has been any previous discussion maybe someone could point me to it?

----------


## fatshark

> the wood/poly compatibility is marginal as please forgive me if my recollection is faulty but I don't think the spaces between the 10 frames in the polys and those in the 11 frame standard wooden nationals line up - talking about standard DN4 top bars here with a dummy at one end of an 11 frame wooden box;


Not faulty recollection drumgerry  spot on. I had exactly this problem last season. I added Swienty and cedar boxes - full of foundationless frames - on top of two standard cedar broods in the same apiary. The out-of-line spacing of the poly on the cedar resulted in this mess:

oops.jpg

The cedar box was drawn out correctly i.e. from the top of the frames down, in line  :Wink:

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Just clocked that the Swienty Nats have had a redesign ...
> 
> I'd be interested to hear how the redesign compares to the Denrosa version and if there has been any previous discussion maybe someone could point me to it?


Posts 325 and 327 for my opinion.

To add to that: I think they've reduced the side walls' thickness quite a bit by creating deep and large recesses for the hand grips and to display their logo.  I don't know how much, or if at all, these recesses affect the insulation.  The old Swienties only had small sensible recesses for hand grips.
Kitta

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... 
> 
> I looked at some of my broods I bought two years ago now and the frames are dead level with the walls.  ...


And they're old design Swienties, PH? Really? Well, let's wait to hear from Gavin as well.
Kitta

----------


## mbc

> Not faulty recollection drumgerry … spot on. I had exactly this problem last season. I added Swienty and cedar boxes - full of foundationless frames - on top of two standard cedar broods in the same apiary. The out-of-line spacing of the poly on the cedar resulted in this mess:
> 
> oops.jpg
> 
> The cedar box was drawn out correctly i.e. from the top of the frames down, in line


That's nine frame spacing, can't blame the swienty box for that.

----------


## mbc

> Posts 325 and 327 for my opinion.
> 
> To add to that: I think they've reduced the side walls' thickness quite a bit by creating deep and large recesses for the hand grips and to display their logo.  I don't know how much, or if at all, these recesses affect the insulation.  The old Swienties only had small sensible recesses for hand grips.
> Kitta


My old style swienty's have the frame top a mil or two under the edge of the box too.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Why don't you do what I do Kitta ? . I've settled on the old design Swienty B,boxes which I think are still in stock at C.W.J.  I then use wooden varroa floors (self made) together with wooden Roofs which are heavy enough and deep enough  to not blow off easily. I have had no problems with frame fits in these hives and they are also bottom bee space. I looked at the latest style Swienty boxes and didn't see the point of their deep side  recesses - they looked as tho' they had copied the Paynes design for some unknown reason. The new roofs are a joke ! , the rims are so shallow they would not stand up to the sort of winds we experience here, Somebody told me that the new design was because the original boxes were  made for "Denrosa" who have withdrawn the moulds. I don't know the validity of this - perhaps Murray could comment. As the brood boxes are externally dimensionally the same as wooden national gear , everything else is interchangeable.

----------


## Poly Hive

No they are new design, the ones with Swienty on the sides and the plastic runners that are a push fit into the wall. 

Poly roofs have a always been shallow for some daft reason. Roofs of course are not blown off by wind they are sucked off. I have been meaning to try routing out a rebate and using 9mm ply as an extension of some 6" to cure it. So saying I put two bricks on my wintering units and it is rare for them to be off. 

PH

----------


## Black Comb

Top bars flush with the box top and double broods sticking together are the norm in the Thornes cedar boxes I use.
To separate the 2 b boxes I twist the top one as well as lift. It breaks any seal between top and bottom boxes.
If the top bars are not flush then will the bee space not be too large?

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Why don't you do what I do Kitta ? . I've settled on the old design Swienty B,boxes which I think are still in stock at C.W.J.  I then use wooden varroa floors (self made) together with wooden Roofs which are heavy enough and deep enough  to not blow off easily. ...


I have so much hoped that they'll improve the new design with a proper raised lug rest because I'm not keen on my frames sitting on the poly lug rest - but it seems to me that my only option with the new ones is to either remove the raised lug rests (so in the end there won't be much to choose between the two boxes) or keep them in and settle for the struggle to lift a box without also lifting all or the frames from the box below.

They've discontinued the new roof because, as you said, Grizzly, it was a joke.  So the old roofs are still about, and I quite like them.  I always strap my hives down, so I don't need the weight of a wooden roof (that said, all my hives are strapped and weighted down - 77mph gusts of wind predicted for Friday).

Kitta

----------


## Poly Hive

MC? When you bought your new broods did you get the frame rests with them? white plastic strips that fit into a slot in the wall? If not let me know and I have a few spare. Just bear in mind we are off to India on Sat for a couple of weeks. 

PH

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Top bars flush with the box top and double broods sticking together are the norm in the Thornes cedar boxes I use.
> To separate the 2 b boxes I twist the top one as well as lift. It breaks any seal between top and bottom boxes.
> If the top bars are not flush then will the bee space not be too large?


Like the old Swienties, the frames in all my wooden hives (bought from different sources) are also a fraction below the rim.

I've not measured the space between the top of the lower frames and the bottom of the top frames, BC - but I've not had any problems, so I assume the spacing is fine.

I've tried the twist and then lift technique BC - it doesn't work (not for me, anyway).  The frames are really, really, stuck to the box above.  I had to one-by-one manoeuvre them loose from the box above.

Kitta

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> MC? When you bought your new broods did you get the frame rests with them? white plastic strips that fit into a slot in the wall? If not let me know and I have a few spare. Just bear in mind we are off to India on Sat for a couple of weeks. 
> 
> PH


Yes, thank you PH - they came with the frame rests.
K

----------


## drumgerry

Anyone managed to get their sweaty paws on one of the new Maisemore polynucs yet?  They look nice but it'll be interesting to see how they compete with Paynes' offering.

----------


## Pete L

Think they will be manufactured for Paynes anyway.

----------


## drumgerry

Ahhhhh!  I see!  So it's just a redesign of the Paynes nuc then?

----------


## Pete L

Don't know for sure, Gerry, but i suspect it will be, the two businesses get on very well, and the old nucs are all Paynes, Roger mentioned back in September there were some new design features coming out regards the hives and nucs, including a top feeder for the nucs, plus a super.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...Of all my quibbles, it's the lug-rest issue that bothers me most.  If I buy another hive, then I might remove them altogether, or try to lower them somehow.
> Kitta


I posted some photographs showing the lug-rest problem (I think with the above post) but I can't find them anymore.  (Perhaps they were too large and got deleted ...)

I bought some new Swienties and shaved about 2mm off the lug rests - and so far I think that works really well and is so much easier to work with.  I'll see if any problems appear as a result of reducing the lug rests.  I have a bandsaw, so reducing them was fairly easy - but perhaps not that accurate.  I think I removed a tad more than 2mm.

The first photo shows the new style Swienty with the full-height lug rests, and the other two with the reduced lug rests.  I may have to watch out to prevent drones getting trapped underneath the lugs - but that's easier to manage than the previous set-up where one squashed a lot of bees, and they propolised the lugs to the box above.

Kitta

Swienty, new design.JPG Swienty, reduced lugs.JPG Swienty, reduced lugs - two boxes.JPG

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> I posted some photographs showing the lug-rest problem (I think with the above post) but I can't find them anymore.  (Perhaps they were too large and got deleted ...)


The photos are back - so, sorry for having reposted one of them. Perhaps Fatshark saw the same gremlin at work in Encore Demaree.

----------


## gavin

> The photos are back - so, sorry for having reposted one of them. Perhaps Fatshark saw the same gremlin at work in Encore Demaree.


No need to apologise, still plenty of server space!

I did notice that GIFs seemed to have become invisible.  There are one or two maintenance tools that would have been worth trying but only when I'm not falling asleep at the laptop, have some time, and have done a backup.  So if they are back, it wasn't me!  Will look into this more carefully whe I have time, which is very short at the moment ...

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I did notice that GIFs seemed to have become invisible.   ...


Actually, Gavin, they're visible on my Nexus phone, but still not on the PC - I don't know if that information might help you to sort the problem (when you have time, of course).
Kitta

----------


## drumgerry

Have I missed discussion of these?  If so could someone point me in the right direction?  If not looks like an interesting addition to the polyhive canon....

http://www.caddon-hives.co.uk/POLY-Beehives/

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Have I missed discussion of these?  If so could someone point me in the right direction?  If not looks like an interesting addition to the polyhive canon....
> 
> http://www.caddon-hives.co.uk/POLY-Beehives/


I think they're the Maisiemore ones, Drumgerry. Another behemoth of a hive - but I like the nucs.  I prefer them to the Paynes nucs.
Kitta

----------


## drumgerry

I had totally missed that Maisemore had entered the poly hive fray.  I wonder if anyone here has bought one of the Nationals and would share their thoughts?

----------


## Kate Atchley

Has anyone tried the Abelo polyhives: https://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/poly-hi...ly-hive-super/

They look as though they're from the same stable as Abelo's miniplus mating nucs which are very solid and, I find, well thought out. The national polyhives come ready painted with good deep roofs and a good thick crown board. Tempting! Free delivery too.

So far have used only Swienty which are fine but the roofs are surprisingly thin.

----------


## drumgerry

They had bee space problems a couple of years back when they first came out and Abelo sold them off cheap on Ebay.  You'd imagine they'd have those problems sorted by now though....

----------


## Calluna4u

Been through this on another thread.

Poly units vary wildly in their quality and adaptibility. Some quite plainly set out to lock you into their product only. Once you start with them they have you over a barrel.

The Abelo product......actually Lyson........is made by a different process from others (I have a load of Smith floors made by Lyson) and although apparently harder and more substantial they are actually remarkably brittle. A drop on a corner tends to lead to a shattered box which is harder to repair than other makes.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Very helpful Calluna and thanks. I guessed this had been discussed before but ... hey ho ... couldn't find it.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I think it was on the other forum, Kate.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the boxes have that lip like MB Paradise boxes - so, not compatible with your Swienties.

Kitta

----------


## Calluna4u

> I think it was on the other forum, Kate.
> 
> I don't know if you've noticed, but the boxes have that lip like MB Paradise boxes - so, not compatible with your Swienties.
> 
> Kitta


LOL...yep. Just to make it even smarter......unless they have made changes......the two brands also have different lips so are not compatible with eachother.

Keep it simple. Go for a flush edged non lipped version and then you have choice. Most brands are thus.

However.......even then.....the flush lipped Paradise /MB ones (if you look carefully on their Langstroth offering they do both types) have a different bee space....half and half rather than top or bottom as would be normal whatever type of hive you have. Thus even with a flush edged design they have got you once you start with them.

Was in Denmark a couple of years back and they had bought and painted several hundred Paradise boxes to add to their unit, having been told they were compatible. They did not realise the bee space issue until after they had painted them and put the first frames in. There were expletives. Maybe to some it does not seem much of an issue but its a real hassle as you both crush bees using flush undersided roof/crown board or feeder unless you spend time clearing off the bees running ther, and you have to clean the underside of the gear on top at every visit. Also get drone brood in ladder comb once they have free run if they have a standard top bee space box on the bottom and a Paradise box above it. A mess....and in a commercial outfit this slows you down and time is money...and its at every visit.......a costly pain over the years.

At least this is one thing wooden hive folk have less difficulty with.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Yes C4U I made the mistake of buying paradise boxes - b.nuisance and even having made some adaptors the b things weren't really compatible with my existing BS kit. I very quickly changed to Swienty gear ( ex John Mellis ) and never looked back. Kitta had a couple of my PH boxes and the rest I disposed of in a lunp. I don't know what PH 's thinking is on their 1/2 and 1/2 bee space - it doesnt make any sense. I notice that Swienty  have changed the style of their current boxes again for no apparent  reason.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Smiths thats the answer  :Smile:

----------


## Kate Atchley

Hummmm .... forgot the non-compatibility of the lip (though handy that boxes may not be sliding around on one another in a gale). Not so tempting after all.

Do wish Swienty would produce a hefty crown board and roof. 

In recently gales the boxes of some of tightly strapped hives were sliding on one another up to 2cm to the side. Not enough to open air gaps but the Tower of Pisa came to mind!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> 
> In recently gales the boxes of some of tightly strapped hives were sliding on one another up to 2cm to the side. Not enough to open air gaps but the Tower of Pisa came to mind!


Did the slipping boxes have frames in them, of were they shallows used as ekes?

I have noticed that ekes can slip on most poly hives (apart from the ones with lips!).  The large Bee Hive Supplies ones are the worst in that respect.  I'm using two straps on the most exposed hive.

I have a couple of Swienties next to that BHS hive that I've strapped together with those flat straps, and I've not had any problems with them slipping apart.
Kitta

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Did the slipping boxes have frames in them, of were they shallows used as ekes? I have noticed that ekes can slip on most poly hives (apart from the ones with lips!). ...
> Kitta


Yes Kitta, the top eke on one hive and the empty poly-super on another were the slippers!

----------


## Kate Atchley

Troubled about "lip" (I'll spare you more of the pun) I pursued it with Abelo who, even on a Sunday, answered my series of questions.

Here's Damian latest email:

"Hi Kate

This is the new design, the dimension taken from the National British Standard Hive Plan (attached). Bottom bee space and will take 11 frames and  is fully compatible with all standard National hives (including Swienty).

We will have this hive on Bee Tradex, Saturday 5th March.

Best wishes,

Damian" (The drawings he included were indeed of a standard national showing the usual dimensions and usually constructed in wood.)

I like the sound of it (no pics available it seems ... website ones are the old version), with its super-thick crown board and deep roof. Think I'll have to try one as I'm looking to add a few more polyhives to kit. 

Hope to see it when I visit the BBKA convention early April. Will keep you posted!

----------


## prakel

> This is the new design, the dimension taken from the National British Standard Hive Plan (attached). Bottom bee space and will take 11 frames and  is fully compatible with all standard National hives (including Swienty).
> 
> We will have this hive on Bee Tradex, Saturday 5th March.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Damian" 
> 
> (The drawings he included were indeed of a standard national showing the usual dimensions and usually constructed in wood.)


Nice to read this for the simple reason that I was beginning to think that I was living in a 'parallel apiary'; the hive they're pushing on ebay certainly appears to be fully interchangeable with no sign of an integral locking system. Although the blurb does confirm C4u's expectation of a different moulding technique.

One question, if Swienty boxes take ten frames and these take eleven are they using thinner side walls or is it theoretically possible to actially fit 11 into a Swienty box?




> All our poly hives are high density 160 kg/1m3. This extra density can only be achieved by steam moulding, not injection. It adds extra strength and durability to our poly hives. 
> 
> These hives have the same exterior footprint as a Wooden National Hive. The Brood Body and Super holds 11 Hoffman frames.
> 
> *Abelo advert, ebay.*

----------


## fatshark

The super thick crownboard in the eBay advert has got 5 ruddy great ventilation holes in it ... these can apparently be closed off, but are plastic and presumably not quite so super thick and insulating. Perhaps there are 5 big fat poly circles to fill the gaps? Nice colours though ...  :Wink:  And commendably flat exterior surfaces, so easy to paint.

What are the small white 'blocks' for ... surely not handles? Upper entrances?

----------


## Kate Atchley

> The super thick crownboard in the eBay advert has got 5 ruddy great ventilation holes in it ... these can apparently be closed off, but are plastic and presumably not quite so super thick and insulating. Perhaps there are 5 big fat poly circles to fill the gaps? Nice colours though ...  And commendably flat exterior surfaces, so easy to paint.
> 
> What are the small white 'blocks' for ... surely not handles? Upper entrances?


All the detail is in the Abelo catalogue at: https://www.abelo.co.uk/wp-content/u...logue-2016.pdf Reading this it seems polystyrene bungs are supplied, as well as plastic ventilation plugs, for the crown board circles. Odd that the Abelo website page on these is so light on detail and has some incorrect pics showing lipped boxes. 

I didn't find these hives on eBay (only something similar with fewer extras).

Fatshark, the "white blocks" are optional extra entrances: 2 per brood box and one per super, for ventilation or open. These present interesting ready-made options for colony increase ... could run a brood box as 2 nucs, separated but warmed above its "mother" brood box. Horsley board could become redundant with use of Qx, crown board and these entrances.

I first read about this hive in an ad in the BBKA magazine.




> One question, if Swienty boxes take ten frames and these take eleven are they using thinner side walls or is it theoretically possible to actially fit 11 into a Swienty box?


Prakel (corrected to "Prattle" by spell-checker!): maybe the side wall thickness gives way in favour of better insulation above. I've puzzled that Swienty polyhives have such thick side walls but little thickness in roofs (and no insulated crown boards).

----------


## mbc

I have one of the original thick crown boards and yes, if they're the same, they have the poly disks to close them off, ventilation for moving/hot weather, and a rebate one side for feeding.
The swienty poly broods will fit 11 narrow hoffmans (as in thornes seconds slightly narrower hoffman ends) all be it at a very tight fit, but considering the swienty side walls must be nigh on 1 3/4 " thick theres plenty of scope for keeping the same footprint, making 11 hoffman ends fit comfortably and still leaving a decent wall thickness for insulation.
I must admit I'm getting a bit of a hardon waiting for these new boxes, compatible with existing equipment, mention of dividing boards for queen rearing /split box nucs, integral floor pollen trap, simple, thick, strong looking well insulated roof, reasonably priced and ready to go out of the box, all sounds a bit too good to be true but heres hoping.

----------


## prakel

> The swienty poly broods will fit 11 narrow hoffmans (as in thornes seconds slightly narrower hoffman ends) all be it at a very tight fit, but considering the swienty side walls must be nigh on 1 3/4 " thick theres plenty of scope for keeping the same footprint, making 11 hoffman ends fit comfortably and still leaving a decent wall thickness for insulation.


Thanks  :Smile:  great information -I hadn't realized that there was scope for thinning down the walls without compromising the structure.




> Prakel (corrected to "Prattle" by spell-checker!):


A German spell-checker may be required (or, perhaps not  :Smile:  )!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> I like the sound of it (no pics available it seems ... website ones are the old version), with its super-thick crown board and deep roof. Think I'll have to try one as I'm looking to add a few more polyhives to kit. 
> 
> Hope to see it when I visit the BBKA convention early April. Will keep you posted!


I hope you get to see them, Kate.  I'd like to hear your verdict.  Do they, or don't they, have lips?  I imagine I can still see lips in the catalogue photos - but whereas the raised edge illustrated on the website are on the inside (like MB Paradise Boxes) the catalogue illustrations seem to have a raised edge on the outside - but I might be wrong.  Take a Swienty with you to test them out, Kate.

Apart from the brittleness drawback C4U mentioned, is the fact that they are 160g/L as opposed to the usual 100g/L an advantage?  I remember vaguely that somebody said the gain is not significant.  (Was it you, C4U, or somebody else?)

Kitta

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I hope you get to see them, Kate.  I'd like to hear your verdict.  Do they, or don't they, have lips?  .... Take a Swienty with you to test them out, Kate.  Kitta


Kitta, Damian at Abelo assures me they don't have lips and can combine with any national boxes, including Swienty. Hope you won't be too dispappointed if don't travel down to near Birmingham from the wild West Highlands carting Swienty parts with me! But I'll have them in mind when I see the new hive!!

----------


## gwizzie

> Kitta, Damian at Abelo assures me they don't have lips and can combine with any national boxes, including Swienty. Hope you won't be too dispappointed if don't travel down to near Birmingham from the wild West Highlands carting Swienty parts with me! But I'll have them in mind when I see the new hive!!


Hi Kate, I have been in contact with Damian for sometime now about these new hives and I hope that I will have one delivered to me next week ? I will keep you posted on if and when this happens. I will also share pictures of the hive if anyone wants them..

As far as I have been told the plastic ridge is the same in the picture (the same as on the Mini Plus mating hives) the ones you have Kate.

A quote from their catalogue 


> We have also embossed the top and bottom of both
> the brood boxes and supers with rigid plastic

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Hi Kate, I have been in contact with Damian for sometime now about these new hives and I hope that I will have one delivered to me next week ? I will keep you posted on if and when this happens. I will also share pictures of the hive if anyone wants them..
> As far as I have been told the plastic ridge is the same in the picture (the same as on the Mini Plus mating hives) the ones you have Kate.


No Lip! Another message from Damian in my inbox this morning, with a photo I'll include below:

"Hi Kate,

... Just to let you know both boxes National in the catalogue are upside down (The photo was made in studio). They don't have lips. I have attached a photo of the super without runners etc..

Best regards
Damian"

Super National.jpg

Wondering if this is the dream hive? gwizzie do tell us how you get on.

----------


## gwizzie

> No Lip! Another message from Damian in my inbox this morning, with a photo I'll include below:
> 
> "Hi Kate,
> 
> ... Just to let you know both boxes National in the catalogue are upside down (The photo was made in studio). They don't have lips. I have attached a photo of the super without runners etc..
> 
> Best regards
> Damian"
> 
> ...


Hi Kate,
I think I will need to speak to him again as I am sure he said to me that they were going to have the plastic part ? hummmm.....
As for the perfect hive I don't think there is one out there, as different people want look for different aspects in a hive!!! hahaha NOT what the bees want  :Wink: 

I hope that they do have the plastic lip as in the mini plus hives as I really like that part.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Hi Kate,
> I think I will need to speak to him again as I am sure he said to me that they were going to have the plastic part ? hummmm..... I hope that they do have the plastic lip as in the mini plus hives as I really like that part.


Yes I like the lip on the MiniPlus boxes. It makes them less likely to slide apart etc. 

But for many of us having national hive equipment which can be interchanged is also important: using cedar supers, for instance, on a Swienty hive, or a Lyson (Abelo) brood box with wooden or Swienty supers, floor or roof.

----------


## gwizzie

> Yes I like the lip on the MiniPlus boxes. It makes them less likely to slide apart etc. 
> 
> But for many of us having national hive equipment which can be interchanged is also important: using cedar supers, for instance, on a Swienty hive, or a Lyson (Abelo) brood box with wooden or Swienty supers, floor or roof.


Yes I agree with the mini plus the lip is great....

OK I have just been on the phone to Damian and he has confirmed with me that there will be a plastic plate top and bottom of the hives BUT this will NOT have a lip they will be flat, BUGGER was hoping for the lip.

Kate yes I agree with you on that point about interchanging equipment but it would not have been that hard to make a very small eke for this to make lip flush. ???? anyway I hope that this clears up the misunderstanding on this hive!

----------


## Calluna4u

> I hope that they do have the plastic lip as in the mini plus hives as I really like that part.


You are trying to become commercial.

You will come to HATE the lips if you do.

Trust me...its an error I will never make again. They cause a lot of hassle, the hives are slower to open, get more agitated when you do, and require more cleaning off. 

The extra time taken to work them costs MONEY. 

A bright idea that has never quite gone away, and has been a problem in intensive management scenarios right back to the Wormit Commercial, which was anything but commercial.

A properly strapped hive should not slip apart in migration, and unless you are giving them a load of space they should have the boxes well enough stuck together after a couple of days to render lips irrelevant at best and a pain to get the hive tool in at worst.

Biggest issue is, when the bees attach the frames above to the ones in the box below, you have already pulled the bottom ones up a bit before you can get the hive tool in to lever them back down again. Huge bee irritation (compared to normal) and time wasted controlling bees when you could be right in there already.

Also.....on my most recent visit to Denmark I was at an apiary of now 'getting on a bit' lipped hives. They had issues with bees getting out at 'dings' in the lips. Bees were flying from little exits at several points on the stacks. They also pointed out that the number of bees killed due to wandering into the contact areas between the boxes while you were finding the 'engaged' position was a lot more then when the contact is pretty well instant in flush  situations where exact positioning is not so crucial.

In certain management scenarios we like to be able to stagger the boxes a little to allow bee flight, especially drones, from the upper boxes. Not really an easy option with lipped boxes.

OK if you have a few mini plus and are not time sensitive. Looked at mini plus myself with Gavin last year, but thought they were 'bitty'......too many pieces to lose or damage for what should be a simple piece of kit. Gavin thought differently, so there you go....one mans perfect is another mans imperfect.

----------


## gwizzie

> You are trying to become commercial.
> 
> You will come to HATE the lips if you do.
> 
> Trust me...its an error I will never make again. They cause a lot of hassle, the hives are slower to open, get more agitated when you do, and require more cleaning off. 
> 
> The extra time taken to work them costs MONEY. 
> 
> A bright idea that has never quite gone away, and has been a problem in intensive management scenarios right back to the Wormit Commercial, which was anything but commercial.
> ...


Well murry,
you have just smashed my world and my dreams lol  :Big Grin:  but you have brought up a few interesting points there, and I'm going to have to reconsider the lip  :EEK!:

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> Also.....on my most recent visit to Denmark I was at an apiary of now 'getting on a bit' lipped hives. They had issues with bees getting out at 'dings' in the lips. Bees were flying from little exits at several points on the stacks. ...


I'm getting more interested in the Abelo hive the more I hear about it, particularly now that it's lost the lip.

My next niggle though is the plastic bit that's added to the top of the walls. I wonder whether that might not cause 'dings'.

Kitta

----------


## mbc

> OK if you have a few mini plus and are not time sensitive. Looked at mini plus myself with Gavin last year, but thought they were 'bitty'......too many pieces to lose or damage for what should be a simple piece of kit. Gavin thought differently, so there you go....one mans perfect is another mans imperfect.


I've mated hundreds of queens using these mini plus boxes and the only flaw I havent worked a simple solution to yet is the space under the frames where they build wild comb. Making new floors is an option, but would require a lip and rejigging the dividing board, which kind of defeats the "ready to use almost immediately out of the box" utility of these units, which is one of their big pluses.  I'll try dropping in a ply insert this coming season and see if that fixes it.
The lip on these boxes makes them much better, one reason being they make sure the two halves are securely divided, but I totally agree they would be a pita on a full size hive.

----------


## mbc

> I'm getting more interested in the Abelo hive the more I hear about it, particularly now that it's lost the lip.
> 
> My next niggle though is the plastic bit that's added to the top of the walls. I wonder whether that might not cause 'dings'.
> 
> Kitta


The reverse I imagine, its just a piece of solid plastic integral to the moulding which is very strong and wont get nibbled by the bees( or wasps or ants which I've seen have a go at softer poly = paynes).

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## The Drone Ranger

Did you have a smith poly hive C4u ?
Or were those all cedar

Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The reverse I imagine, its just a piece of solid plastic integral to the moulding which is very strong and wont get nibbled by the bees( or wasps or ants which I've seen have a go at softer poly = paynes).


So far, only my Paynes hives have had that problem.  I think those coin-size dents on the top of the walls are the weak spots. The bees chewed new top entrances through those weak spots.   (I've sold all my Paynes hives now).

It will be good if the plastic surfaces on the Abelos don't cause problems.

Kitta

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## Calluna4u

> Did you have a smith poly hive C4u ?
> Or were those all cedar
> 
> Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk


Our Smith unit is a historic one, the hives my father started with back in 1950. They are nearly all wooden.  We DO have a few Poly ones in service. I part own the mould (with Swienty), but it has been in disuse for some time though could probably be rejigged. Unlike the National, made on the same mould with change parts, it is NOT fully compatible with the wooden boxes, due to the thick front and back walls. It is however a box the bees love. The main user of them is John Mellis.

Its a flush edged box so easy to stack and work.

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## The Drone Ranger

The poly won't last 65 years though  :Smile: 

Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk

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## busybeephilip

Apideas won't either,  is wood the best ? - (just stirring it up again)

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## fatshark

> The poly won't last 65 years though


Once discarded though it lasts forever ... styrofoam = polystyrene

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## The Drone Ranger

Phillip have you got Thornes new catalog 
They have some inexpensive plastic mating nucs that take apidea size frames

Haven't seen one in the flesh just just the picture of the mininuc and a mouse 
The caption reads
"bite this you buck toothed bar steward"

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## The Drone Ranger

> Once discarded though it lasts forever ... styrofoam = polystyrene


When our chickens spot a bit of polystyrene we have to get to it quick the crazy birds peck it and swallow little bits 
I had to lock up the polystyrene seed trays/cells because they were getting into the shed and pecking them to shreds )

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## Calluna4u

> The poly won't last 65 years though


Well, our oldest poly boxes, in our initial experiment, have been in service for 20 years already. These were, and remain, unpainted. they look shabby but there is no reason to suspect they will not last for many many years yet. The main unit is now 17 years old, and they got painted at set up, and waves of boxes have followed ever since. Once painted correctly (and its a good gloss with the correct thinners for spraying added) the paint is permanent the attrition rate minimal. I  believe that most of these poly boxes (if you buy the right quality) are good for a lifetime. Most of the first wave will see me out.

However....I have less confidence in some of the makes. Some are too soft. Some are made by a process not suited to the density and the bees can chew beads out. Some have a hard biscuity exterior but are quite loose in the interior of the walls. 

Apideas also mentioned...........ours are over 20 years old and I think we have discarded 6 or 7 in that time.....mice the main problem. Nice little box but desperately overpriced.

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## busybeephilip

> Phillip have you got Thornes new catalog 
> They have some inexpensive plastic mating nucs that take apidea size frames
> 
> Haven't seen one in the flesh just just the picture of the mininuc and a mouse 
> The caption reads
> "bite this you buck toothed bar steward"



Yes, just got it.. havent had time with a cup of tea to look through it yet although I am considering a simple wooden box, apidea volume, where a scoup of bees plus V. queen could be dumped in with some candy and left to get on with it, then check 3 weeks later for eggs etc.  Looking through apidea frames is a real time consumer, dumping bees out and grabbing/catching the queen would be much quicker

----------


## Jon

> Looking through apidea frames is a real time consumer, dumping bees out and grabbing/catching the queen would be much quicker


Depends how many you have to do. You can often have a queen marked, clipped and caged with a few workers in 5 minutes.
If the queen is on the floor rather than one of the frames you waste more time.
Apideas work well on a number of levels. The main thing is they don't need too many bees to get a queen mated and the other factor is, when you have a small number of bees you need good insulation. Home made wooden mini nucs are nowhere near as good. Apideas are scale-able through removing the feeder and/ or adding the extension so you can run them as 3, 5 or 10 frame units. Keeping them to 3 frames speeds things up as you tend to find the queen more quickly but 10 frames is a good configuration for overwintering.

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## The Drone Ranger

[
How are the wooden smiths looking  C4u  :Smile: 

I did all the wrong things with my apideas 
I used syrup in the feeder during summer (with a float)
OK you would think but the feeder must absorb some of the sweetness
So even after washing they attracted mice 

I tried getting some through Winter once but they were only 18" above the ground and rodents munched in from the rear to get the fondant that wasn't doing any good anyway (me again)

I stored them high up in the bee shed and mice still managed to find them the next year they acquired a taste for them

Then I put some of the frames in with other stuff to be steamed duh!!! 
They all melted
I lose the little queen excluder bits
 I squash bees under the frame edges 

They are good quality but I have wrecked them all now 

I just use the keilers now because they work and are a lot cheaper plus the frames are just a bit of wood but the plastic ones Thornes have in stock might be worth a look 

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Kate Atchley

*Pics new Abelo / Lyson national polyhive*

I seem to have become Abelo's messenger ... please don't shoot me! 

20160303_114508-1200.jpg 20160303_132151-1200.jpg 20160303_114601-1200.jpg

Still like what I'm seeing there.

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## gavin

Also liking what I see and looking forward to handling the things tomorrow morning in the Bee Tradex melee.  I might even buy some as I'm looking for some more polyhives.

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## Kate Atchley

> Also liking what I see and looking forward to handling the things tomorrow morning in the Bee Tradex melee.  I might even buy some as I'm looking for some more polyhives.


Tell us more tomorrow, do.

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## Lancs Lad

I run 30+ Paynes poly hives and wouldn't go back to wood, when I changed over my main criteria was that the roof had to have a deep edge so that I could get an eke or winter polystyrene crown board under it.
The Abelo looks looks the deepest in this respect.
Just on a side note I mainly breed AMM Queens, with poly hives if you put the outside frames in the brood box with no foundation in, they pull them out with drone comb, a great advantage when Queen rearing.

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## Emma

> When our chickens spot a bit of polystyrene we have to get to it quick the crazy birds peck it and swallow little bits 
> I had to lock up the polystyrene seed trays/cells because they were getting into the shed and pecking them to shreds )


In Aberdeen I would sometimes race around trying to hide the polystyrene takeaway boxes before our seagulls found them. They seemed convinced they were worth eating: I always thought it was because they tasted of chips. I lived in a herring gull colony back then. (It doubled as a council housing scheme full of high granite tenements.) Lovely birds, great voices :-) 
I looked up polystyrene the other day, Fatshark. Potentially very recyclable. And quite clean burning in an incinerator, so it's potentially good for energy recovery, too. I'm not sure that fusing paint on the surfaces would help with either of those, though. Yet another eco-dilemma.

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## Calluna4u

> [
> How are the wooden smiths looking  C4u


Overall not too bad.

We have 34 apiaries wintering right now with widely varying numbers in them, and only 4 look to be in any kind of trouble. All four are in wood, 2 Smith and 2 Langstroth.

One of the poor Smith groups was poor from the outset. A bit like inputting data to a computer. If you put crap in the very BEST you can hope to get is crap out. Bees don't get better over winter, despite some of the hopelessly overoptimistic statements you see on some internet media.

The main problem the other groups have is that the clusters are getting small, many of them too small. However it is, to my surprise, less of an issue that I thought it was going to be.

BUT

potentially a good 6 weeks of winter to come, and we are weeks and weeks away from crossover day. (when more young bees start hatching per day than old ones die off).

It very late in the winter that the strength collapses due to bees suffering from autumn burn out dying off before they raise sufficient brood.

I suspect many apparently reasonable (sort of medium sized..... say 4 to 6 seams) will still end up as knife edge cases.


Poly feeders? (Don't matter if its Apidea or whatever) We ALWAYS paint the inside of the feed compartment....simple single coat of masonry paint.....to prevent impregnation of the material with syrup.

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## The Drone Ranger

Your right about not counting chickens C4u
They are all flying about today bu that can so easily change
I'm a fan of wooden Smiths can you tell?  :Smile: 


Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk

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## prakel

> potentially a good 6 weeks of winter to come, and we are weeks and weeks away from crossover day. (when more young bees start hatching per day than old ones die off).
> 
> It very late in the winter that the strength collapses due to bees suffering from autumn burn out dying off before they raise sufficient brood.


It's interesting to read elsewhere on the internet about how far advanced colonies are because 'they didn't shut down brood rearing' or if they did 'it wasn't for very long'. Here, after a very mild winter I know for a fact that the test colonies which we've opened periodically through the down season actually all resumed laying later than normal. In fact, some didn't start rearing brood until well into February. All are now pretty much on par with what I'd expect for this time of year, no more than that.

Having satisfied myself as to what goes on in our hives during the off season I had planned never to open a nest again during the winter but changed my mind late last season and picked a few to watch. I'm now glad that I did because it's added an extra dimension to what I _think_ I know.

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## Jon

Judging by lack of heat on the crownboard, very few of mine have started brood rearing yet.
Temperature set to rise a lot at the weekend so that should start things.

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## madasafish

I took the hive cosy off a lang nuc yesterday and the crown board was warm to touch so brooding.

When the weather improves, I'll take temperature readings of all crown boards and post them. :last time I did  - January - they was no brood.

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## prakel

Has anyone seen the new MannLake (NB-100) offering? The only photo in their catalogue at present is of a Paynes version.




> Our 5 frame painted poly nuc boxes come with castellated frame spacers, a top feeder, and an open mesh floor. NB-100 fits either Langstroth or B. S. National brood frames.

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## mbc

I've now got one of the abelo nationals and although I've not used it in anger yet it looks and feels the biz. The roof is the best I've seen.

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## madasafish

Temps at 10th March. On crownboards with IR thermometer..
Ambient temperature at the roof of the hives: 8C.

National 1 19.7C (Cosy with 150mm roof insulation)
National 2 18.1C (Cosy with 100mm roof insulation)
Langstroth 1 18.4C (MB poly)
Langstroth 2 18.3C
Langstroth 3 11.0C (went into winter weak)
Langstroth 4 12.2C (went into winter strong)
Langstroth nuc 18.1C
TBH 10.1C (insulated )

Assume all brooding.

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## Kate Atchley

> I've now got one of the abelo nationals and although I've not used it in anger yet it looks and feels the biz. The roof is the best I've seen.


Glad it feels the biz. Ordered 3 a couple of weeks ago so will soon find out. Really like that roof .. in the pics at least.

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## Kate Atchley

> Has anyone seen the new MannLake (NB-100) offering? The only photo in their catalogue at present is of a Paynes version.


Looks interesting in the catalogue ... pity pics not there yet. Seems Paynes and Swienty may have to up their game with Abelo and Mann Lake bringing out these new, painted products, priced competitively.

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## Feckless Drone

> abelo nationals : looks and feels the biz. The roof is the best I've seen.


Yes, roof looks good. What about the crown board - do you think those vents be clogged up with propolis? and would a normal wood National crown board work?

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## Calluna4u

> Yes, roof looks good. What about the crown board - do you think those vents be clogged up with propolis? and would a normal wood National crown board work?


What is it about the roof you ones like?....looks a horror to me.

Its way too deep and is unable to have one of the joys of a poly roof, that you can just put your hand in the middle firmly and gently pull up one edge to flex it slightly and it simply peels away. Then again the biscuit hardness of the Polish material means that is more difficult anyway.

You DONT need crown boards with poly hives....they are only there to pacify UK conservatism...we have NONE at all in our unit. The roof doubles nicely as both. Only sometimes in Europe do you see a Perspex or acetate sheet to double as a crown board.
Crown boards are a bit of a pest in these hives as it means the bees do not glue the roof down themselves, and renders the hive more vulnerable to wind. Bigger rocks or a hive strap then needed.

Sorry, but saw the hive already, and it looks like a backward step designed to accommodate feedback from wooden hive users, which kind of misses part of the point of poly. They are incredibly simple hives to buy and keep, and all the fancy bits and pieces are just not needed. Floor, boxes, combs, an excluder, a feeder and a roof.........that's ALL you need. The rest is just a nuisance.

Swienty will not be losing any sleep over it...........it incorporates features they tried (like the deeper roof) and discarded long ago.

Also......it costs about 60p to properly paint a poly box with best grade paint that will last a lifetime, including the labour. Abelo's premium for painted over unpainted is several times that amount.

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## Jon

> Also......it costs about 60p to properly paint a poly box with best grade paint that will last a lifetime, including the labour. Abelo's premium for painted over unpainted is several times that amount.


Paynes charge about an extra fifteen quid for a painted polynuc.
You have to laugh.

http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/nuc-m...-ready-to-use/

£20 worth of paint would put 3 coats of paint on a pallet of them

----------


## SDM

> £20 worth of paint would put 3 coats of paint on a pallet of them


3 pallets or 25 double brood hives , 75 supers, 10 feeders  and 15nucs
£33 of sandtex( half that if you use white) and 1/5th of a tin left over, but it has taken me every evening since mid January.

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## fatshark

> 3 pallets or 25 double brood hives , 75 supers, 10 feeders  and 15nucs
> £33 of sandtex( half that if you use white) and 1/5th of a tin left over, but it has taken me every evening since mid January.


Do what I'm going to do SDM ... sub-contract the pesky painting bit to Calluna4u ...  :Wink: 

Or do what I did which was buy a paint sprayer ... aside from all the paint I got on the lawn, it made an unbearable job just about bearable.

----------


## mbc

> What is it about the roof you ones like?....looks a horror to me.
> 
> Its way too deep and is unable to have one of the joys of a poly roof, that you can just put your hand in the middle firmly and gently pull up one edge to flex it slightly and it simply peels away. Then again the biscuit hardness of the Polish material means that is more difficult anyway.
> 
> You DONT need crown boards with poly hives....they are only there to pacify UK conservatism...we have NONE at all in our unit. The roof doubles nicely as both. Only sometimes in Europe do you see a Perspex or acetate sheet to double as a crown board.
> Crown boards are a bit of a pest in these hives as it means the bees do not glue the roof down themselves, and renders the hive more vulnerable to wind. Bigger rocks or a hive strap then needed.
> 
> Sorry, but saw the hive already, and it looks like a backward step designed to accommodate feedback from wooden hive users, which kind of misses part of the point of poly. They are incredibly simple hives to buy and keep, and all the fancy bits and pieces are just not needed. Floor, boxes, combs, an excluder, a feeder and a roof.........that's ALL you need. The rest is just a nuisance.
> 
> ...


I hear what your saying, especially about the crown board, and my appreciation of the roof was mainly as an insulated lid for wood nationals rather than specifically on these hives.
The brood box and supers are nice looking boxes, I think the harder plastic top and bottom, especially on the frame rails, will give the hive a lot of usability.  One positive they have over swienty is less surface area on the mating surfaces = less squashed bees.
I can't see myself using the crown board other than as insulation. 
The good points of the roof for me are :
-it's sturdy
-it's plenty insulated
-it's deep so will cover eaks
-ready to go out of the box
-should never leak

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## Calluna4u

I hear what you are all saying, but for fear of brining 'Mr. Insulation' over from the beekeeping forum, the denser you go with poly the LESS the insulation. This product is too dense. Not only that, the side walls look thinner.

Squashing bees should not happen much in any hive manipulation.....it does to some extent with all types.......but it need never be a major issue.

The plastic edges are also just a luxury that answers a worry people have about poly that is not really there in practice, lack of durability especially when the hive tool is being used.

Its largely a poly hive for wooden hive users. Poly is a different mind set....and believe me I learned that slowly enough myself.

003.jpg

Fatshark.......I sub contract the work myself.......fortunately space aliens just love messing around with sprayers and you can get it done real cheaply.

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## mbc

> The plastic edges are also just a luxury that answers a worry people have about poly that is not really there in practice,


I was under the impression that they are a necessary part of this type of moulding rather than a luxury. Maybe I'm wrong.

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## prakel

I'm totally unqualified to comment on the intricacies of different poly hives but Lysons orignal mini-plus boxes certainly didn't have the plastic edging and have stood up very well to a decade of constant use, with the notable exception of the rather narrow locking edges of the roofs, which are a definite weak point and seem to break for a pastime. But I'm only assuming that they were made with the same moulding process as these new hives.

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## Calluna4u

> I'm totally unqualified to comment on the intricacies of different poly hives but Lysons orignal mini-plus boxes certainly didn't have the plastic edging and have stood up very well to a decade of constant use, with the notable exception of the rather narrow locking edges of the roofs, which are a definite weak point and seem to break for a pastime. But I'm only assuming that they were made with the same moulding process as these new hives.


As far as I could see they are just made the same way. Thin parts are too brittle and do go remarkably easily. The ones made by heat and evacuation of the gas in the beads do have a bit more give in them that actually generally makes them less hard but more durable. Your experience is typical. Only on narrow edges is there any advantage at all in the hard plastic, but that also creates a cold spot.

I suspect they have taken notes from all the bright ideas and small grumbles they get at fairs conferences and shows and have come up with an attempt to accommodate these....but almost every UK beekeeper has his own, often highly individualistic, preferences and suggestions. Sorry, but this looks designed by a committee to incorporate such voiced concerns that are often actually fallacies, like the material needs a hard edge on it. Will not do much harm to the product, and I can see many liking it, but its all an added complication in the manufacturing that is not really needed, and the bigger clients will all go for simpler and more economically made kit. Hence my comment about Swienty not losing sleep.

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## Calluna4u

Just noticed that the picture of the space aliens with their spray guns came through with only one pic....there were three sent.

First is the finished work on the mating boxes and the second is a group of the Paynes nuc boxes all set out for winter in one of the three sites of such boxes. This is the smallest of the three but easiest to get to.

002.jpg

March16 071.jpg

Gavin is familiar with my aliens, and both Aberdeenshire and ESBA will meet one or both of them on visits this coming June. They take an artistic turn from time to time which can look a little bizarre. Its all about cutting down drifting.

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## Pete L

> First is the finished work on the mating boxes and the second is a group of the Paynes nuc boxes all set out for winter in one of the three sites of such boxes. This is the smallest of the three but easiest to get to.


 Nice painted patterns, most of ours are also painted similar.... how do you get on with the Kielers, I gave up on them myself a few years ago, found them to be too much of a faff to operate, too slow, and the bees nibbled the entrances bigger, but that could of just been down to a bad batch.

Also have you noticed any problems with the Paynes six frame nucs, and too much condensation forming on the clear inner covers in winter if more insulation is not added?  Did down here, but fixed it by using thicker roofs, rather than a top feeder or eke.

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## Calluna4u

Only one years working with Kielers, so not saying we will not get frustrated with them as time goes on, especially with those ones that steadfastly refuse to stop building the combs the wrong way........ We do not intend to overwinter them so the size is not an issue. Its fine for hobbyists proving they can, but the attrition rate of little units renders the ones that DO make it uneconomic.

We chose them for a couple of reasons. 

Firstly our mitts are a problem size for fishing queens out of both the Apideas and SwiBines that our first wave of mating boxes were. Try to catch her by hand while running in the box and you cant see what you are doing. Its ok in Kielers. Just a couple of weeks ago I was told that they are making a real comeback and more have been sold in the last 12 months than for many years. People reverting back to simpler kit with less 'bits' to break or mislay.

Secondly they cost me under  6 quid each. One queen and its paid for itself.

Experience thus far is that they are very satisfactory for the job not had any entrance enlarging by the bees, but mice is a different matter, though I have had more issue with it in Apideas than anything else.

Jolanta wants some MiniPlus to experiment with this year, so have ordered her 20 to get a meaningful sample size for her trial. Too expensive in my mind, but we will see how they go. We ordered the real German ones as they do not have all the loose bits and pieces that go with the Polish copy. I hope she will have some set up for demo purposes before the association visits this year. Will be roping Gavin in to help as he knows more about mini plus than we do, even though Jolanta used them briefly when abroad for training.

The Paynes nucs are fine for purpose. I just don't get all the little complaints about wanting to cut out the feed slot etc. If it needs more than 6 frames it needs a proper hive. Yes there is some condensation on the acetate sheet but its not excessive I feel, and provides an easy and immediate source of water for reconstituting stores. If starting from scratch with a redesign I would make the roof thicker myself.....combination of more insulation and stronger so they will not break when you lift them off with a substantial rock on top. All minor though, Their introduction, which I toyed with for some years myself albeit a somewhat different proposed design, has, as was obviously going to be the case from Scandinavian experience, is a key transformational moment for beekeeping in the UK. Jolanta and I carefully checked a group 0f 91 with her last seasons queens in them yesterday, and amazingly only 3 have succumbed to winter and all the remainder were looking pretty decent, even huge in at least a third of them, and were carrying pollen. So far so good. The other two groups of them, totalling another 210, look as if they will end up with a loss rate of about 10%. Its very impressive.

Their origin is complex, and calling them a 'Paynes' does not credit their originators. Despite his infamy, I believe the design was originally that of a certain William Aldiss and the manufacturers. Just that Paynes now own the rights to them and have badged them accordingly.

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## Jon

I have used both Kielers and Apideas and I much prefer the Apideas.
The poly seems to be better quality and they come with an inner cover and a slot for the queen cell if you are starting with a cell rather than a VQ.
They are a bit more expensive at around £14 including the Vat but as you say, one queen easily covers the initial investment.

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## Pete L

> I just don't get all the little complaints about wanting to cut out the feed slot etc. If it needs more than 6 frames it needs a proper hive. Yes there is some condensation on the acetate sheet but its not excessive I feel, and provides an easy and immediate source of water for reconstituting stores.


I don't understand those who cut out the integral feeding section on the Paynes nucs either, that is one part I really like about them, started using them when they first came out with the old style entrance (I like the newer disc entrance, much better)  but that is when I first noticed the condensation problem, really bad in some, the fix was to simply slice off the four locating lugs on the corners of the roof with a serrated knife and fit a section of 50mm kingspan to the top, held on with a strip of the wide foil tape all round the outside, thus holding the insulation firmly in place to the roof, then looking in about a week later and no condensation.

My favorite mating nucs are my wooden units, using three half length hoffman spaced shallow frames (five in the quads) plenty of room when catching queens, insulated roof, polcarbonate cover, will hold  1kg of fondant, and part of a complete operating system to keep the units going all year round when transferred to the quads for ,if need be, or brood frames back over other colonies, and the reverse with bees and brood in spring.
Michael Collier uses similar individual boxes with the three frames.

Interesting about the origins of the Paynes poly nucs.

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## Calluna4u

> The poly seems to be better quality and they come with an inner cover and a slot for the queen cell if you are starting with a cell rather than a VQ.


Old style perhaps?  All our Kielers have this too. Did not greatly like the inner covers so had our own made from thicker material. The frames are all scalloped to take cells between them. They have a deeper lid space in them so you can apply a layer of fondant when running them as a six frame rather than four. Still early days, but last year we found them more stable than Apideas for absconding and less need for constant starvation vigilance in the prolonged dearths we suffered during the wretched summer we had.

Too early to say if the preference over Apideas will last however......I change my mind frequently once the evidence stacks up.

Got another two full pallets of Kielers on the way for the new mating site, so hoping its not a decision I regret.

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## fatshark

I've used Kielers and have seen bees nibbling the entrance hole bigger ... or rather evidence of this over a couple of seasons. Perhaps it might be possible to paint inside and out with something to harden the surface a little before use? It's a pity the feeder isn't interchangeable between the base and upper units. I usually swap them out and use a fondant-filled frame feeder instead. This allows another frame of bees and is easy to replace when needed. I just use a sheet of thick poly as a crownboard/inner cover, with a little flap for the QC.

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## mbc

I go round the entrances of my kielers with car body filler, does the job nicely.
I remember William's website with the pictures of the "paynes" nuc and being quite excited about them. I use them unmodified and unpainted and have no complaints. I have about fifty.

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## SDM

> I go round the entrances of my kielers with car body filler, does the job nicely.
> I remember William's website with the pictures of the "paynes" nuc and being quite excited about them. I use them unmodified and unpainted and have no complaints. I have about fifty.


How long have you used them unpainted ? I used my first like that but after 9mths it was looking pretty sorry for itself. Almost completely white and surely harder and more fragile from the UV damage.

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## mbc

The oldest ones I baught as soon as they were available(2-3 years ?). They do look sorry for themselves but nothing that spoils their functionality.

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## Jon

apidea-lids-fondant-small.jpg

You can feed fondant via the apidea lids as well

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## The Drone Ranger

For overwintering keilers you can put the second brood body unit under the main one
No frames and the bees draw out double length combs from the top bar
That seems to be big enough to get through Winter with some luck

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Calluna4u

> You can feed fondant via the apidea lids as well


Yes, I agree but small amounts.

I have no intention of overwintering these units so for now ....Kielers and Apideas alike, will just use the feeder box.

Do not see the effort of overwintering these units to be cost effective. Bear in mind I operate to a different set of rules, and I cannot afford to do things that are too costly, or in this case, provide a last years queen at a time I don't really need them anyway.

I also like them to draw fresh wax each season, said by some of the big breeders to be the way to get the best and healthiest queens.

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## busybeephilip

Yes agree with the fresh wax thing... using new foundation in apideas or other mini nucs types is good practice with regard to nosema and possible foul brood contamination instead of using stored comb from previous years

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## Jon

> Yes, I agree but small amounts.
> 
> Do not see the effort of overwintering these units to be cost effective. Bear in mind I operate to a different set of rules, and I cannot afford to do things that are too costly,


Appreciate that but it's handy to have a few extra queens to replace any drone layers found in the Spring.
Other than that combining is the only option after removal of the DLQ.
Mind you that is not a bad option either.

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## Calluna4u

> Appreciate that but it's handy to have a few extra queens to replace any drone layers found in the Spring.
> Other than that combining is the only option after removal of the DLQ.
> Mind you that is not a bad option either.


We just shake them out in the grass a few metres away, and DONT return the DL box to the same spot, and make a fresh split into it when the other hives in the group are ready. Its maybe brutal, but the decent bees are admitted to other hives, and a spring drone layer is generally old bees, and has dwindled a lot (unless you add hatching brood) before the new queens brood hatches.

Spent too many years being too soft hearted with drone layers and queenlesses.

Occasionally still am.......

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## Pete L

> Spent too many years being too soft hearted with drone layers and queenlesses.
> 
> Occasionally still am.......


I still am, but they have to be strong in numbers, otherwise the shake out, re queened two this week, one Monday and another today.

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## SDM

> Do not see the effort of overwintering these units to be cost effective. Bear in mind I operate to a different set of rules, and I cannot afford to do things that are too costly, or in this case, provide a last years queen at a time I don't really need them anyway.
> 
> I also like them to draw fresh wax each season, said by some of the big breeders to be the way to get the best and healthiest queens.


Surely a good use for amfew overwintered queens is getting  the new years foundation drawn out in your mating nucs.

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## Calluna4u

> Surely a good use for amfew overwintered queens is getting  the new years foundation drawn out in your mating nucs.


We now have approx. 1000 mating boxes. We don't want them in operation until there are adequate mature drones around, hence we start later (and finish earlier) than is widely talked about of this and other forum type groups. Many of them will not be in operation until early June.

We want it to be effective, not really interested in proving we can mate lots of queens both before there are enough good drones, and after the best colonies have eliminated theirs in late summer and autumn.

Easiest and most cost effective to shake packages of bees from the supers each day and bring them home in the quantities Jolanta requests each day. Its quick and easy and does not involve trying to overwinter marginal units, Yes it can be done....but in our setup its not actually worth doing. A package of mixed colony bees sets up approx. 10 decent mating nucs, add a newly hatched VQ, two days in the dark (partially optional) and once they start to draw the foundation the unit is normally a goodun.

(Mixed bees is surprisingly important......all mixed up they are confused and do not fight...and with no dominant pheromone around they are very receptive to the new queen, whereas if they are all from one colony they are much slower to be receptive, and sometimes never are.)

However, Jolanta will be running a trial on mini plus this summer, and trying to overwinter them. Will see how it goes. If it is not actually a viable option it will be a one or two season experiment.

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## Kate Atchley

> We now have approx. 1000 mating boxes ....
> However, Jolanta will be running a trial on mini plus this summer, and trying to overwinter them. Will see how it goes. If it is not actually a viable option it will be a one or two season experiment.


C4u am wondering how you deal with the bees from the last mating nucs of the season, after you take the queens? Shake them out near some hives in another spot?

We have a few overwintering MPs, run as single or doubled up boxes. They're doing fine. Thinking ahead, I doubt it will be worth the bother of trying to convert them back, individually, to twin-mating nucs, the bees having all used one entrance. Any suggestions folk?

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## Calluna4u

> C4u am wondering how you deal with the bees from the last mating nucs of the season, after you take the queens? Shake them out near some hives in another spot?
> 
> We have a few overwintering MPs, run as single or doubled up boxes. They're doing fine. Thinking ahead, I doubt it will be worth the bother of trying to convert them back, individually, to twin-mating nucs, the bees having all used one entrance. Any suggestions folk?


Precisely.......though by late season nature itself has often taken care of the mating boxes anyway. By late August or September many will already be empty. The ones that never take, the ones the wasps have robbed out, etc. we do not wait for the mini nucs to have sealed brood. A correct egg pattern suffices and is a reliable indicator, so they do not build up the head of brood and bees in them that makes them more long term stable, so the are aften tending to be in decline by very late summer anyway, hence their vulnerability to natural causes. Those still with bees or even queens in them we will hold and have a supply of queens available for the guys to install  in any drone layers they find at heather stripping (it sometimes works) and this year we made up some very late Paynes boxes in early September to use up a few of the late spare queens from the mating unit, although even more went out to some beekeepers in associations that wanted to make their bees queenright before winter.

We just shake out any that have bees left in them near hives, and over a couple of day the girls just trim all the combs back with a sharp knife to half an inch or so (the new comb building is an important morale and unity thing at first spring set up) and store them away for winter. In spring ( started already) we fill the feed box with fondant and put a little sheet of cling film over it to keep it moist. Rewax any frames that need it, then store them away again to await their use later on. No time for that in season so has to be done in the quieter times.

Not going to comment on the mini plus boxes, as I have never used them. Am innately suspicious of the multi unit in one box format as it seems to me awkward if you have half of it good and the other half needing refilled.....how does it work when they need a period to achieve unity? All will become apparent later in the season. I expect some hilarious and at times frustrating outcomes......new things always have a touch of that. Only a tyoe in the water. I have bought her 20 of them, not a useful trial on a smaller number as flukes take on too much significance on very small sample sizes.

I personally don't really see the advantage of overwintering mini plus boxes. In poly hives a smallish unit will come through anyway in a full box, and its already on the correct sized combs. Fear it could entail a lot of faffing about, and that is anathema to me Faffing is a big cost (unless its just myself and I can use the amateur reasoning of my time is free lol).

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## gavin

> ..... the bees having all used one entrance. Any suggestions folk?


Overwinter them on a different site.  We are forced to anyway, being up the hills for isolation.  None overwintering myself (the one I tried didn't make it) but Jeff has a couple.

You wheech out the queens on a good egg pattern, Murray?  We've been leaving them until there is sealed brood, believing that the subsequent acceptance (including low supersedure rates) is best with a fully established queen.  Wasn't there some Australian research to that effect?

Back in grey Tayside after a few sunny spring days in Belfast.

G.

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## prakel

> Thinking ahead, I doubt it will be worth the bother of trying to convert them back, individually, to twin-mating nucs, the bees having all used one entrance. Any suggestions folk?


Lots of people disagree with me on this subject, but I stand by what I've previously said, the miniplus box is not, in my oppinion suitable for use as a twin unit. I simply don't like the tight fit of the frames when that division board is inserted (I assume that the newer Lyson boxes have exactly the same internal dimensions as the early ones which I've been using). Mating nucs need play in the frames. Space. 

I've occassionally put a division back in to accomodate a spare cell which I'd have probably been better off throwing away, but generally they're at the back of the shed with all the other nonsence bits which come with the mp boxes (and loads of equally useless full size follower boards too).

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## Jon

I don't like any form of multi unit box either which would be my main issue with the mini plus.

C4U, there is some Australian research by Rhodes and Denney (scroll down here) which shows that the acceptance rate of queens is better when they are 30-35 days from emergence.
You can see that the pattern is ok from the eggs/larvae but there may be a trade off on acceptance rates when introduced to another colony.
I have not tested this independently but I try and wait until there is sealed brood in the mini nuc. In an ideal world I remove the queens around 10-14 days from they start to lay.
If left too long you risk absconding and they certainly need to be removed before brood emerges unless you have time to keep removing brood from Apideas and redistributing it to broodless units.

EDIT-posted at the same time as you Gav.

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## gavin

> We just shake out any that have bees left in them near hives, and over a couple of day the girls just trim all the combs back with a sharp knife to half an inch or so ......


Good to see the word 'girls' used in more or less the right way on a beekeeping forum!  That line must have confused some people.

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## Calluna4u

> I don't like any form of multi unit box either which would be my main issue with the mini plus.
> 
> C4U, there is some Australian research by Rhodes and Denney (scroll down here) which shows that the acceptance rate of queens is better when they are 30-35 days from emergence.
> You can see that the pattern is ok from the eggs/larvae but there may be a trade off on acceptance rates when introduced to another colony.
> I have not tested this independently but I try and wait until there is sealed brood in the mini nuc. In an ideal world I remove the queens around 10-14 days from they start to lay.
> If left too long you risk absconding and they certainly need to be removed before brood emerges unless you have time to keep removing brood from Apideas and redistributing it to broodless units.
> 
> EDIT-posted at the same time as you Gav.


I have read all that in the past and had a fairly animated discussion with some UK breeders on the  topic.

The big queen breeders around the world harvest purely on laying pattern. If you want 'tested' or 'proven' which means they have produced sealed worker brood then expect to pay a substantial premium.

Over the last two years we have been using the Nicot press in cages for introducing the queens, just showing good pattern, and acceptance that way is very near to 100%, and some batches WERE 100%. Not worth leaving her in the box for an extra couple of weeks unless its going to make a big difference, and it does not. Not saying there is no effect, just not a viable enough one to make the delay worthwhile.

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## prakel

> You wheech out the queens on a good egg pattern, Murray?  We've been leaving them until there is sealed brood, believing that the subsequent acceptance (including low supersedure rates) is best with a fully established queen.  Wasn't there some Australian research to that effect?


It would be interesting to know whether this is universally true or whether laying rate has an important bearing (this is something I've been thinking a lot about for the last twelve months). Irrespective of box size, does a queen that mates from a box which is chock full of stores and brood from the previous queen develop at the same rate as a queen which has sufficient open space to meet her needs immediately.

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## Kate Atchley

> Lots of people disagree with me on this subject, but I stand by what I've previously said, the miniplus box is not, in my oppinion suitable for use as a twin unit. ...


Thanks Prakel. I won't even try to split the MPs again for mating ... claiming, if asked, your authoritative advice on the subject! It's what I wanted to do anyway.

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## Jon

The acceptance/rejection rate in that research was very significant though and directly correlated to queen age.
Large scale queen rearers are perhaps more worried about volume and turnover than other factors.
Tried the press in cage a few years ago and had problems with it. The workers sometimes got in under it too quickly and killed the queen.

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## prakel

> Thanks Prakel. I won't even try to split the MPs again for mating ... claiming, if asked, your authoritative advice on the subject! It's what I wanted to do anyway.


lol. That's my Scottish holiday on hold for another year!

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## prakel

On the subject of queen age, a lot of the oldtime queen breeders were doubtful of shipping queens which had been in full lay for some time, often suggesting that such queens should be weaned off lay for a couple of days before caging. This is something which seems to have been lost in the mists of time. Whether there was any basis to their thinking I can't really say, but it's easy to imagine why they could have come to such a conclusion.

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## Jon

The number of days in a cage in the post would also be a factor.
Having said that, one of mine turned up after 23 days and the queen was still alive.
I had sent a replacement a couple of days after posting when it did not turn up.

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## Black Comb

Anyone selling queens surely waits for the brood to be sealed to ensure it is not a DLQ?

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## Calluna4u

> Anyone selling queens surely waits for the brood to be sealed to ensure it is not a DLQ?


That's not the custom of the international trade. The experienced eye can see pretty well immediately if the queen is a good one or not. Jolanta has proven more or less infallible in that respect, and any in doubt she marks for me to assess when I am next at the mating boxes....which...while we had the one place was next to my home, so pretty well daily. Have had zero complaints of drone layers being supplied and only 2 or 3 % in our own nucs, and we keep all the slightly questionable ones ourselves. Anything not looking correct can be left for a further period to see what happens, or more likely given the big crunch and a new ripe cell added.

Jon questioned the motives. Its a business, so if you want to ascribe greed or whatever to it feel free, but these people are shipping out their queens in the thousands. Biggest one I know does 20,000 a week. One has 70,000 mating boxes (all singles btw)Waiting for sealed brood sharply reduces the throughput, delays the supply to the customer, and the percentage uplift is far greater than any loss rate from them not being correctly mated. These producers also ALL stand by their product, and reasonable replacements, even the whole shipment of hundreds of queens sometimes, will be reshipped FOC if there is a serious problem.

I was always happy to buy them newly laying and only once was there an issue that was not resolved properly. USA shipment in the 80's...slow to lay...many never did....queens seen flying. Team had gone round a mating yard far too fast and seen the brood and eggs, and harvested over 100 virgins just hatched, thinking they were laying. Got a replacement shipment but not the type I wanted and the issue rumbled on for a couple of years.

If you want to wait for sealed brood in those places you increase the turnround time by at least 50%. They exist in a competitive world and are selling queens for a very low figure, often 1in the 10 or 12 pounds range. Slow things down and put the price up? the customer goes elsewhere for cheaper....as fresh laying is good enough.

So....is it producer greed or customer requirements? The latter leads, and if the breeder regularly supplied duff shipments than the would not have their big customers for long.

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## Greengage

I seen on the Facebook page of Scottish Bee Keepers someone looking to import Queens from Argentina??

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## drumgerry

If it's the page I'm thinking of please don't confuse it with the actual SBA FB page Greengage (you may not have anyway!).  It's a page run by an individual and is in no way representative of scottish beekeepers.

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## prakel

> I seen on the Facebook page of Scottish Bee Keepers someone looking to import Queens from Argentina??


Well there's at least one very prominent queen breeder in Argentina. They have some 'interesting' videos showing their methods on youtube too (for those who find it difficult to shut off when it comes to bees). When I spoke to the guy a few years ago (about something totally different) he said that there's a min order requirement of 300 to make it worthwhile for him to send queens to the UK. That may have changed of course.

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## Calluna4u

> Well there's at least one very prominent queen breeder in Argentina. They have some 'interesting' videos showing their methods on youtube too (for those who find it difficult to shut off when it comes to bees). When I spoke to the guy a few years ago (about something totally different) he said that there's a min order requirement of 300 to make it worthwhile for him to send queens to the UK. That may have changed of course.


Lots of the big guys abroad have that requirement. Australia, NZ, Argentina.......the only permitted third 9non EU) countries at present......do not send queens by mail. They must go by air freight.....and that renders small shipments non viable, though they WILL sometimes do it if you offer to pay the full minimum freight. For airfreight you also need to appoint a forwarder and clearing agent....all costs....and pay a fee for them to come through the Animal Reception Centre at Heathrow. Its far from simple.

However, Malka queens from Argentina, if you choose the correct one for your area, are nice bees. Very gentle. Personally not had them for several years and there problem for me was insufficient honey produced.

If you check the import statistics on beebase you will see its a regular trade.

----------


## Jon

> Large scale queen rearers are perhaps more worried about volume and turnover than other factors.





> Waiting for sealed brood sharply reduces the throughput, delays the supply to the customer, and the percentage uplift is far greater than any loss rate from them not being correctly mated.


Looks like we are in agreement. I wasn't questioning the motives. I assumed that this was volume trade and that fast turnaround was of the essence.
Re. the customer, don't most of these arrive at UK resellers such as Paynes before being posted on to the final purchasers?

----------


## mbc

Prakel, I use my miniplus hives as double units, I like the tall narrow, warm space each side has for establishing the little colonies, and I like the economy of mating two queens simultaneously from the one box. Each box averaged slightly over six queens for me last year, and it wasnt a good season. You are right that its a tight fit, I shaved a smidgen off each hoffman end on the frames to make the boxes easier to work, also I like to make narrower, easier to defend, entrances by cutting a quarter inch trench in the blocks for the entrances.  They're easier to block up and load on the trailer this way without fiddling with different bits, the landing pad is unnecessary. Using them as as single unit would be a little expensive in resources, space and initial cost for me, and no real advantage over a full size frame nuc, I can appreciate why you'd want to move to full size frame nucs in preference to mini pluses if you cannot get on with them as doubles.

I see why they might be a bit of a fiddle when you're working on a large scale Calluna4u, but when I'm only doing a few hundred queens the fiddling and flexibility is quite fun, a failed side is usually shaken out, entrance blocked and left as a single until splitting again on the next round of cells. I look forward to my queen rearing days as light relief from the heavier work, I would probably feel differently if I was employing someone to do the fiddling.

Kate, turn the box 90* and loosely block the entrances with a blob of fondant when turning a one into a two with the mini pluses, if the open brood in the halves is balanced well then it works fine and both halves get a portion of foragers.

----------


## prakel

> Using them as as single unit would be a little expensive in resources, space and initial cost for me, and no real advantage over a full size frame nuc, I can appreciate why you'd want to move to full size frame nucs in preference to mini pluses if you cannot get on with them as doubles.


Using the mp's as single units, as I believe the other brand is designed to be, still gives an advantage in economy at about half the size of a 5 frame bs nuc. My own thinking has been (and still is) developing for some time and is entirely specific to my own needs at present but after ten years with mini-plus boxes I'd still rate them as a highly efficient unit which are a real pleasure to use.

----------


## mbc

> The number of days in a cage in the post would also be a factor.
> Having said that, one of mine turned up after 23 days and the queen was still alive.
> I had sent a replacement a couple of days after posting when it did not turn up.


Did she get introduced ?

----------


## Jon

The introduction was screwed up the purchaser let me know, can't remember the details.
Pity, after all that time in the cage.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Prakel, I use my miniplus hives as double units ....
> 
> Kate, turn the box 90* and loosely block the entrances with a blob of fondant when turning a one into a two with the mini pluses, if the open brood in the halves is balanced well then it works fine and both halves get a portion of foragers.


What a good idea mbc. Worth trying, for sure.

----------


## mbc

> Using the mp's as single units, as I believe the other brand is designed to be, still gives an advantage in economy at about half the size of a 5 frame bs nuc. My own thinking has been (and still is) developing for some time and is entirely specific to my own needs at present but after ten years with mini-plus boxes I'd still rate them as a highly efficient unit which are a real pleasure to use.


I've made some four frame nucs to take miniplus frames along the same lines as the ones PeteL showed photos of on the beeforum, if i rememer rightly his are half national size and similar in design to what Mike Coller uses, I particularly liked the half milk bottle feeder on the end, it takes a while to knock them together though so I'm not convinced I'm saving much when £30 gets me a lyson mini plus that will mate two queens.  
Queen cells are easy to produce in abundance at the right time so its always places to place them thats the limiting factor for me.

----------


## Calluna4u

> I'm not convinced I'm saving much when £30 gets me a lyson mini plus that will mate two queens.  
> .


I get nearly 6 Kielers for that money........you should all be putting your heads together and not having your wallet burgled.

Also......for the Polish product that is a high price......even for only a trial order of 20 I am getting the real German ones for way less than that........

Old hobby horse of mines, but your associations need to give themselves a serious shake and get into group purchase. Like herding cats though......folk have huge individualism here and an almost emotional attachment to their own (usually in truth inconsequential) variant on just about everything. Said to be the most fragmented market in the world for hive types and variants.........so you all have to pay pay pay.

...lol......says the man who keeps the old wooden Smith unit due to it being what his father started with and was brought up with........its my roots and would be very difficult for me emotionally to sell. We all have our weak points.....

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I get nearly 6 Kielers for that money........you should all be putting your heads together and not having your wallet burgled. ...
> ...lol......says the man who keeps the old wooden Smith unit due to it being what his father started with and was brought up with........its my roots and would be very difficult for me emotionally to sell. We all have our weak points.....


 :Smile:   :Smile:  How very dull these pages would be if we all agreed on the same methods and kit, based on the latest information ... i.e. wholly rational, proven choices!

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## Jon

> Old hobby horse of mines, but your associations need to give themselves a serious shake and get into group purchase. Like herding cats though...


What I see is that many associations have a guy who is the de factor supplier of kit to the new and established beekeepers, often at very high prices.
Problem is, not many members can be bothered to take the initiative and order polynucs etc through the association for distribution to the rest.
My BKA ordered a pallet of Paynes nucs and a few cases of Apideas last year so members were able to get them at a reasonable price.

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## mbc

> How very dull these pages would be if we all agreed on the same methods and kit, based on the latest information ... i.e. wholly rational, proven choices!


I couldn't agree more! 
Lol to the herding cats.
I tend to accumulate equipment in piecemeal lots, I understand this means I don't always get a competitive price but it has allowed me to keep my overheads down as I've not needed to borrow large chunks of money.
It's the same old story of the easiest way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one,  I didn't get that choice but manage ok.
They say you should never start bee farming without a bit of money behind you, 20 years later I'm still skint.

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## busybeephilip

re :  What I see is that many associations have a guy who is the de factor supplier of kit to the new and established beekeepers, often at very high prices.



Yes, usually called 'agents' for beekeeping supply houses.    Ordering in bulk is the way to go, just need to be careful that youre not left holding a lot of unwanted stock

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## drumgerry

Interesting mininuc discussion guys.  I'm pretty much an apidea man myself but was tempted by 5 of these last year

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...9246#post29246

Haven't used them yet but the concertina-d National frame puts them one up on the miniplus in my opinion.  Found the top bar fantoucherie of Kielers a pain in the rear end.

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## Calluna4u

> Interesting mininuc discussion guys.  I'm pretty much an apidea man myself but was tempted by 5 of these last year
> 
> http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...9246#post29246
> 
> Haven't used them yet but the concertina-d National frame puts them one up on the miniplus in my opinion.  Found the top bar fantoucherie of Kielers a pain in the rear end.



These are not at all uncommon in Europe, though mainly to take a folded up Langstroth.

One bee supply place I was in in Italy had then in all sizes up to six in a row, though threes and fours were the most popular.  I got prices for them but the owner said they were not big sellers, and that Kielers (both original and Polish copy) and Apideas remained the most popular by far. He also had both types of mini plus but the local breeders preferred other options.

I met one guy using the concertina frames and he was a mix of happy with them, as it made moving them into full hives so easy, but also scathing, as he said it was an embarrassing reality that the lovely new queen occasionally ended up dead or damaged as she had been nipped as the frame returned to the non concertina shape. the bees propensity for filling in some ladder comb etc around the sides of the unit also meant that many of the frames need a bit of a scrape off before they would go to the straight frame format.

I took a price for them from him, and the four unit box, including the assembled frames was 14 euros, and was made in Romania. They were wooden and looked very well made. Could be discounted down to as low as 9 euros for a large order.

Was a big bee supply house, and their showroom and shop was like a modest sized supermarket.

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## prakel

> I've made some four frame nucs to take miniplus frames along the same lines as the ones PeteL showed photos of on the beeforum, if i rememer rightly his are half national size and similar in design to what Mike Coller uses, I particularly liked the half milk bottle feeder on the end


Yes, we did the same a couple of years back (tried all sorts of variants infact). My own favourite was the use of a simple mating box made from OSB3 which could be worked in conjunction with an additional box which fits on top of an extra wide nuc box holding standard frames. This allows spare mini-plus frames to be drawn and filled so that store combs can be given in preference to putting raw feed into the mating nucs. I also used exactly the same principle with our own 'small frame' nucs but in that case the boxes are the right width to fit on top of a standard 5 frame bs nuc (picture). OK, so I'm adding a photo of a home made wooden box to the polyhive thread.... 

But they do say that there's nothing new in bees; having convinced myself that I'd built something unique I then saw a POLYSTYRENE version (designed to work with the other mini-plus and a poly nuc box) on a German blog! 

060.jpg

----------


## drumgerry

Thanks for the heads up on the nipped queens C4U!  I'm wondering whether once they have drawn comb on to the folded up frame it'll hold its shape?  And then the danger of nipping will only be at the final stage once the frame is extended to be moved into a proper hive.  But then finding her might be a problem if it gets stuck in that position for the whole season! Hmmm......  

I'm intending to give them a go this summer so I'll report back.  I got them as an experiment really as I can't imagine forking out the Thorne's price to get them in relative bulk.  Maybe a case for a joint order with some other "cats" if we can be made to stay in one place long enough!  I'm a bit like MBC though - have to get kit when I can spare the cash and that wouldn't necessarily coincide with the circumstances of other beekeepers.  

My build up to bigger numbers is a long slow process because of this.  I have the kit to raise about 50 queens at one time now - more than I need.  My colony numbers (only 15 as we speak which includes a couple of overwintered nucs) can't really support as many mininucs as this and still get me a honey crop.

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## Jon

Less is more with mini nucs. The simpler the better.
The only thing I change with Apideas is the queen excluder as the home made one allows 20 entrance slots instead of 3.
I only use these if I think the risk of absconding is high.

drones-behind-apidea-excluder.jpg

Edit - the forum still wont show my photos Gav.

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## Calluna4u

http://www.localmatters.co.nz/News/M...Highway+1.html

Does not get any simpler than these things, sadly I don't have a close up of them. They are effectively a micro nucleus developed by Russell Berry in New Zealand (owner of Arataki). Even smaller than a mini nuc. One comb only. I think its 12 get stacked in a milk crate.

They get filled at home base with a very small amount of bees and a virgin, stacked on a pallet, then driven to an area with good but unrelated drones for mating with and all set out (they have a spike on the bottom) and just left for 2 weeks or so, then, good or bad, they are collected up in their thousands and taken back to base. Good laying queens are harvested, bad ones discarded, then start all over again. If its not mated and laying in the short window then they reckon is not likely to be great anyway so all get emptied out and start over.

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## The Drone Ranger

[QUOTE=drumgerry;35106]Thanks for the heads up on the nipped queens C4U!  /QUOTE]

You can squash them in apideas easily as well though DG
I have squashed her when putting the frames back and she nips under the top bar
Likewise if the keilers are not level they build the comb to suit and lifting straight up can squash them

Lost another overwintered single keiler (starved out) so down to 8 now still not bad (while to go yet)

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## prakel

I see that 'Modern Beekeeping' the well known UK distributor for Paradise Honey hives are advertising that they're going to be stocking the other Finnish hive range from Honey Paw; boxes which have flat surfaces. Presumably only langstroth.

http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/im...oney%20Paw.pdf

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## alancooper

Just received an Abelo poly national (I am slowly converting from wooden nationals to poly). The internal finish was less than good (and largely unpainted). Be aware that there is no Q excluder. The hard plastic tops and bottoms on the boxes and floor legs should surely make for longevity but I am not sure how wind sturdy the hive will be - the plastic slips easily - it may need a breeze block on top in our winter storms.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... - the plastic slips easily - it may need a breeze block on top in our winter storms.


Straps, Alan - straps.
Kitta

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## mbc

propolis

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## madasafish

> Straps, Alan - straps.
> Kitta


Straps having the great advantage they hold the hive together if it is washed away in a flood :-)   or blown over.. Given the ease of use of ratchet straps, and their cheapness at sale time (£2?), a no brainer.

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## The Drone Ranger

Reading this thread with its list of modifications ,and problems that have to be overcome ,I'm impressed at the lengths folk are prepared to go to 
Using cedar Smith hives is so boringly simple 
Is there anything I can do to complicate things without resorting to buying poly hives?

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## alancooper

Yes - propolis and straps of course  :Smile:  But until poly design stabilises there will be minor hassles with each design. Overall, however, the poly hive route is the one I am content with.
Alan.

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## EK.Bee

I've been tinkering around with the Payne's Polys to get things better after dropping a brood box last season

I scoured you tube & found a guy cutting hand holds for langstroths using a jig & a circular saw
The jig was fairly easy to knock up & cuts a good hold into the poly
It's a very quick modification once the jig is made & there's plenty of meat on the poly to do
it on the rail walls

Iv'e also abandoned their floors & make them out of wood so that I can flame them in Spring

To improve the roof I get plastic garden trays attatch to a super & fill with kingspan offcuts
This gives a deep insulated roof with an overhang to keep some of the rain out. (well any rain that's not horizontal in EK anyway)
Dearer than the original but I think its worth doing

In my apiary I have found the winter mortality seems less than in the cedar boxes (judging by the amount of dead bees on the floor in Spring)

Bit more work than off the peg but with their broods at £17 ish it's a cheap hive

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## prakel

Following on from the new boxes being offered by 'modern beekeeping', it appears that Maisemore are now adding a commercial polyhive to their range which may explain their choice of the larger footprint of their nationals, but not seen a photo of the commercials yet -just speculating that they're all going to be interchangeable.

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## gavin

> Reading this thread with its list of modifications ,and problems that have to be overcome ,I'm impressed at the lengths folk are prepared to go to 
> Using cedar Smith hives is so boringly simple 
> Is there anything I can do to complicate things without resorting to buying poly hives?


Lol!  There must be something.  Cut the feeder out of Paynes nucs if you have any and glue them into the Smiths?  If you stop by at the association apiary some time I can show you Marshall Croall's special bolts in the side of his Smiths which allow a hand-hold metal bracket to be slipped on and off.  Unfortunately he never gave me the brackets but they looked great for carrying hives.

I have bees in around 40 Paynes nucs (newer design and unaltered).  They overwintered really well and all have hot crownboards at the moment.  OK, top feeders are better than the side ones and some of the latter are less than wholesome with dead bees and syrup needing discarded but with the judicious use of a thumb for the less propolised frames you can tip the whole thing over and even rinse it out with bees in the box.

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## madasafish

> Following on from the new boxes being offered by 'modern beekeeping', it appears that Maisemore are now adding a commercial polyhive to their range which may explain their choice of the larger footprint of their nationals, but not seen a photo of the commercials yet -just speculating that they're all going to be interchangeable.


Bought one of Maisies new nuc with overhead feeder at Beetradex - for our Association.

Very nice design..
Looks better than Paynes - stronger roof so less prone to buckling under weights..

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## fatshark

> Using cedar Smith hives is so boringly simple 
> Is there anything I can do to complicate things without resorting to buying poly hives?


Why don't you convert some of them to bottom bee space? ... it'll be a pita and, if you're careful not to label them as such, will continue to cause frustration for many seasons. I'd hate to see you left out of all the fun.

And on the subject of poly hives ... I've only kept two cedar nucs for sentimental reasons but have lots (as defined by someone who is not a member of the BFA _i.e._ about 20 ... 'lots' to a BFA member is a three digit number) of Thorne's Everynucs and like them a lot. And as Gavin knows I'm hoping to invest in some Swienty (not Swingy as my spellcheck keeps insisting on) brood boxes this year, but I'll continue to use my own-brand floors, crownboards and Correx roofs.

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## Black Comb

How do you all clean the propolis off these polynucs?
The bees like filling the very small cracks and it is difficult to clean it out.

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## The Drone Ranger

I just got back in and am overwhelmed by the number of suggestions from the forum members 
In particular Gavins excellent suggestion for superfluous handles which I can later mislay

Nearly everybody seems to have favourite poly hives 
Also everyone also seems to have several manufacturers hives

At first that seemed a little bizarre but in context its perfectly reasonable
If necessity is the mother of invention then surely variety must be the brother of invention
Its a brave new world

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## Mellifera Crofter

> How do you all clean the propolis off these polynucs?
> The bees like filling the very small cracks and it is difficult to clean it out.


When in use I just scrape it off as I would on a wooden hive.  When not in use I scrape most of it off when the propolis is dry and hard.  After that I wash and scrub the box in hot water and soda crystals.  Some propolis just stay put and become part of the box's history - like wrinkles on a face.
Kitta

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## Black Comb

That's what I do MC, but as the years go by the propolis content increases.
Nothing like a good scrape and scorch on a cedar box.

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## madasafish

> That's what I do MC, but as the years go by the propolis content increases.
> Nothing like a good scrape and scorch on a cedar box.


I use a wire brillo ..with soda crystals and hot water.. Works wonders...(there are advantages in knowing how to wash up..:-)

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## The Drone Ranger

Propolis dissolves in surgical spirit which is safe enough on wood it might melt the poly? but its likely to be OK

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## The Drone Ranger

https://www.thorne.co.uk/queen/matin...roduct_id=7205
I might give these a try this year if they are not all sold by now
£8.50, Mouse proof, marvellous, go to the top of the class  :Smile: 

Q0136-800-500x500.jpg

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## mbc

Groan, yet another format to tempt me, they do look quite good.

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## nemphlar

At £8.50 they have to be worth a try
2 of them just arrived, they look ok, will need a float if feeding syrup. Wonder how the bees will take to the plastic comb starter

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## prakel

Just had a good look at one of these £8.50 boxes. Most striking point to jump out is that it's not possible to fill from the bottom as with the poly versions. Also, the door is underneath rather than let into the end wall. Seems to be a tidy enough box for the money.

SAM_1984.jpgSAM_1985.jpgSAM_1986.jpgSAM_1987.jpgSAM_1988.jpg

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## prakel

Just noticed that the frames can be clipped together vertically + they each have a pair of hanging eyes, presumably so they can be hung from the topbar of a standard frame. Doesn't appeal to me but it may be a useful technique in other's hands.

008.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks chaps that's all good info on the Thornes mating nucs
Will they be easy to clean ?

Now I hesitate to ask this but what is the best buy in poly hives at the moment ?

Specifically those designed for National frames not requiring bodging  :Smile: 

If you were`buying 10 or 20

p.s. I have read the thread but things change

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## Kate Atchley

> .... Now I hesitate to ask this but what is the best buy in poly hives at the moment ? Specifically those designed for National frames not requiring bodging  If you were`buying 10 or 20


DR I've starting using the new Lyson nationals which I bought via Abelo. They are looking good and no bodging required. Better entrance design than Swienty I suggest, with drop-in entrance closure/partial closure/ventilator. Seem good value too. You could get a better deal than I did, buying 10-20 though. try Damien if these interest you.

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## prakel

> Thornes mating nucs
> Will they be easy to clean ?


I reckon so, should be a very simple job although someone, somewhere (probably facebook), is bound to comment on the fact that you can't use a blowtorch.

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## mbc

> DR I've starting using the new Lyson nationals which I bought via Abelo. They are looking good and no bodging required. Better entrance design than Swienty I suggest, with drop-in entrance closure/partial closure/ventilator. Seed good value too. You could get a better deal than I did, buying 10-20 though. try Damien if these interest you.


+1 for the lyson offering, no issues as yet and I'm liking it, in fairness I also like the swienty.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Kate and mbc will check those lysons out at abelo
Quick question prakel can I clean them with a blowtorch
(I don't have a Facebook page)


Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk

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## prakel

> Quick question prakel can I clean them with a blowtorch


I wouldn't dream of trying to stop you.

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## Lancs Lad

DR
If I can watch , I'll buy the blowtorch. :Smile:

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## Bumble

> DR
> If I can watch , I'll buy the blowtorch.


Can I watch too, if I provide the gas?  :Big Grin:

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR
> If I can watch , I'll buy the blowtorch.


You should have been there when I put my Apidea frames in the Thornes steam cleaner they all melted   :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

mbc  are the swienty ones the same 160g/l as the Lyson
They appear to be about 100 euro that's maybe £80 or so whereas the lyson are £120 painted but still a big difference

Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk

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## Kate Atchley

> mbc  are the swienty ones the same 160g/l as the Lyson
> They appear to be about 100 euro that's maybe £80 or so whereas the lyson are £120 painted but still a big difference


DR the Swienty polyhives are 100g/l so less dense. I believe this provides higher insulation levels than the more dense, moulded 160g/l of the Lysons. The Lyson hives have thicker and deeper roof and a thick crown board, absent in the Swienty.

C Wynne Jones quote £100 for a 2-super national Swienty, with Qx, against the £120 for the Lyson from Abelo, without Qx and assembled and painted. 

Wonder what carriage would be paid if you buy direct from Swienty @ 100 euros? 

Spent much of yesterday painting Swienty hives. It takes a while!

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Kate that's very helpful

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## madasafish

> Spent much of yesterday painting Swienty hives. It takes a while!




Mini rollers (kits £4 or less)  speed up painting enormously. I throw away rollers rather than wash them...and buy new kits (which come with two rollers) as kits are cheaper than spare rollers!

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## The Drone Ranger

> I use a wire brillo ..with soda crystals and hot water.. Works wonders...(there are advantages in knowing how to wash up..:-)


We have never had a dishwasher (except Mrs DR )
But we are getting one soon
Will a Payne's poly nuc fit in one

ps   I have complicated the Smith hives to match a poly one by fitting a thin perspex crown board a bit too small for the hive so it falls in all the time, also it's light and blows off down the field in the slightest breeze , plus it flexes and traps bees ( I hope Payne's don't sue me for copying their design)

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Kate Atchley

> Mini rollers (kits £4 or less)  speed up painting enormously. I throw away rollers rather than wash them...and buy new kits (which come with two rollers) as kits are cheaper than spare rollers!


Me too! Topped up with these in Homebase yesterday and even cheaper online. Best use the emulsion rather than gloss rollers ... ie non-foam.

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## Kate Atchley

> .......... ps   I have complicated the Smith hives to match a poly one by fitting a thin perspex crown board a bit too small for the hive so it falls in all the time, also it's light and blows off down the field in the slightest breeze , plus it flexes and traps bees ( I hope Payne's don't sue me for copying their design)


So you'll be well exercised through the season after all, chasing these!

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## The Drone Ranger

Then there's all the to and fro going back for things I need or forgot
Sometimes I go back for something and when I get there I have forgotten what it was
I then walk back to the hive
As soon as I get there I remember "no hive tool "
Then its off back to the house get hive tool

Back at the hive its then
Where have I put the smoker ?
Oh no I took that back to the house with me and put it down
So off back for the smoker

Damn where is that hive tool gone now?? ...... etc

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## greengumbo

> DR the Swienty polyhives are 100g/l so less dense. I believe this provides higher insulation levels than the more dense, moulded 160g/l of the Lysons. The Lyson hives have thicker and deeper roof and a thick crown board, absent in the Swienty.
> 
> C Wynne Jones quote £100 for a 2-super national Swienty, with Qx, against the £120 for the Lyson from Abelo, without Qx and assembled and painted. 
> 
> Wonder what carriage would be paid if you buy direct from Swienty @ 100 euros? 
> 
> Spent much of yesterday painting Swienty hives. It takes a while!


Hi Kate, I just took an order direct from swienty, 300 euros carriage for 15 plus feeders.

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## fatshark

> Spent much of yesterday painting Swienty hives. It takes a while!


Consider a paint gun for poly painting Kate. Makes light work of a dull task ... and decorates large parts of your garden on a breezy day. I've used mine with masonry paint which needed thinning, but it works a treat on those poly boxes with loads of nooks and crannies moulded (molded?) into the design.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Anyone selling queens surely waits for the brood to be sealed to ensure it is not a DLQ?


I would wait for a good amount of brood  even if I was giving her away otherwise it's a  pig in a poke
Maybe in better climates open mating is more reliable
If you are using them yourself then you can take a chance

Of the 14 keilers I took into Winter I lost most but still had 3 left when I needed replacement queens so not a complete waste of time 

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## The Drone Ranger

I'm not sure if its a beehive or a compost bin



Chalkbrood is also available in the environment wonder if anyone's mentioned that to him 

Still the principle is sound
Everyone knows that cavemen were much more healthy than modern humans (not)
So that must apply to bees as well

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## fatshark

Damn ... now I realise that all of that time I spent scraping and blowtorching the floor of my hives this spring was a wasted effort. If I'd only just chucked in a few handfuls of leaf litter and Garrotta my strong double brooded colonies might be filling their third super by now ... what? they are? Fourth then.

I've spent the Spring training a woodpecker to prepare cavities in trees for my natural beekeeping. It's been tricky getting Woody to keep the cavity size small enough to provide natural _Varroa_ tolerance - see http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0150362

Actually ... ignore my comments above but do read the paper, it's interesting.

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## The Drone Ranger

No worries got the info now

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## The Drone Ranger

Spoke too soon 
OK here's the questions all concerning Abelo Lyson hives

1) Are these actually national size hives or some hacked up dadant or something ?
Reason for the question being I looked at their Website (Lyson) and don't see a national in their product range

2) Do these hives have frame rails or not
Unsurprisingly some would say I haven't seen any mention of them on either Abelo or Lyson websites

3) Is the normal method of finding out about the "features" of a poly hive simply to buy one and hope there is a pig in the poke
Lots of info about insulation etc very little about the basics only stuff on  extra (unnecessary ) holes and entrances etc

I wondered why everyone using poly hives seems to have a pick and mix of lots of different types
Lacking the gamblers spirit I like to know what I am buying before I buy it (weird really)
Perhaps it's my suspicious nature but when I see Lyson's UK stockist is out of stock of brood boxes I get worried

Most of this thread seems to consist of marvelous and ingenious ways to adapt these poly boxes into something useable
Am I expecting too much should I learn to appreciate their quirky nature and start my own collection of ornamental but flawed examples of out there design
I admire both the patience and the optimism of the early adopters and their skill with a paint brush

Frustrated, F.....ed off, fed up and confused and that goes for Tapatalk as well




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## mbc

DR, seems you've got your knockers in a twist, the new abelo nationals are good to go out of the box, compatible with other standard national gear and have a hard plastic frame rail which looks like it will last indefinitely.  My only gripe is that they should be around 30% cheaper.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks mbc
Can you fix Tapatalk now ?

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## The Drone Ranger

ordered half a dozen to see what they are like
should get one free thats the offer on the website
Once they arrive we'll see whether to get any more or not
No broodboxes available though and double brood is a necessity a lot of the time


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## Kate Atchley

Will do my best to answer DR ... 




> Spoke too soon 
> OK here's the questions all concerning Abelo Lyson hives
> 
> 1) Are these actually national size hives or some hacked up dadant or something ? 
> Reason for the question being I looked at their Website (Lyson) and don't see a national in their product range *National, interchangeable with other boxes.* 
> 
> 2) Do these hives have frame rails or not
> Unsurprisingly some would say I haven't seen any mention of them on either Abelo or Lyson websites. *Yes, built in. The pics on the Abelo website were apparently taken of the bottom on the boxes! The national ones are new, I believe, and perhaps not in demand on continental Europe which might explain why you don't find them on the Lyson site? They're also being sold in Ireland by beekeeping equipment folk I saw at BBKA Convention* 
> 
> ...


Wish someone would post a simple formula showing the insulation comparison between the Swienty 100g/lt v Lyson 160g/lt. The Lyson lids have thicker poly (as well as deeper surrounds). Is that needed to achieve the equivalent insulation I wonder? They also have thick crown boards (with holes for feeding or ventilation if preferred). Again, does this provide extra insulation when the holes are plugged with the poly bungs, or not?

Seems I should be in touch with Damien myself ... but hey ho ... loads of stuff to do and queens to rear ...

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## The Drone Ranger

thanks Kate
im not sure single brood box is much use these days 
Snelgrove, Demaree, Queen rearing you name it
They should know that

ps 
I did ask a few questions via their "send us a message " bit on the website 
No reply they probably dont read it


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## Kate Atchley

> thanks Kate
> im not sure single brood box is much use these days 
> Snelgrove, Demaree, Queen rearing you name it
> They should know that
> 
> ps 
> I did ask a few questions via their "send us a message " bit on the website 
> No reply they probably dont read it
> 
> ...


I agree about limitations of single brood box. Apparently Abelo have orders for 500 of these just now. Proof positive?

Sorry you didn't hear back from Abelo. Damien answered me within an hour this morning. Try emailing sales@abelo.co.uk for his attention?

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## fatshark

> im not sure single brood box is much use these days 
> Snelgrove, Demaree, Queen rearing you name it


But all those are summer occupations when the benefits of poly are perhaps less critical. Furthermore, two supers - poly or otherwise - can always be pressed into service as the bottom 'box' .

I'll be very interested to hear of a side-by-side comparison of the Swienty _vs_ Abelo offerings as I'm intending the buy some later in the season.

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## The Drone Ranger

> But all those are summer occupations when the benefits of poly are perhaps less critical. Furthermore, two supers - poly or otherwise - can always be pressed into service as the bottom 'box' .
> 
> I'll be very interested to hear of a side-by-side comparison of the Swienty _vs_ Abelo offerings as I'm intending the buy some later in the season.


That's true fatshark but isn't that the whole thing about using poly hives they always seem to involve some lash up or bodging 
They seem to spend plenty time coming up with weird entrances and crown boards etc but there's no need for any of that 
The Swienty ones look like anaemic fish boxes but no doubt have several unwanted additional features as well

I ordered a Maisemore one but that doesn't have frame rails because they are moulded in 
They do sell a wooden crown board don't know how well it fits though

My friend has Payne's Nucs but they had to throw away the floppy plastic and make their own crown boards 
Needless to say they look like a bodge up
Those hives do have metal frame rails though 

I'm seriously just considering buying new floors roofs and crown boards for the Smiths 
I have had those boxes for donkeys years they are still good and I don't need to paint or bodge just to use them

I will wait and see who knows I may be on the road to Damascus (Not sure if that's a good thing these days)
Raining here  :Smile: 


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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> The Swienty ones look like anaemic fish boxes but no doubt have several unwanted additional features as well
> 
> I ordered a Maisemore one but that doesn't have frame rails because they are moulded in ...


I should decorate my Swienties with fish!

They don't have any fancy bits, but still not ideal.  The only fiddle, I think, is to trim the lug risers by 2mm (and the old floor was better - just needed a tray) - but some people don't mind that.

If you do want a National poly, then decide whether you want a behemoth like Maisiemore or Paynes, or something smaller like Swienty or Abelo. I much prefer the smaller option.

Kitta

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## fatshark

I have a few Swienty poly supers and use them unmodified. They're robust enough to withstand some serious abuse.
All of the poly boxes I've butchered (er, modified  :Smile:  ) have been nucs. 
I use the poly supers with my standard QE's, brood boxes, CB's etc. I prefer my floors to commercially available ones and the CB's are already insulated. 
Like Kitta, I'd prefer a compatible box rather than the offerings from Maisies or Paynes. The incompatible (full size) poly hives I own - all Paradise/ModernBeekeeping - are *only* now used as bait hives with bodged Correx floors and roofs and a simple sheet of thick polythene as a CB.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ....
> 
> My friend has Payne's Nucs but they had to throw away the floppy plastic and make their own crown boards 
> Needless to say they look like a bodge up
>  ...


Also, DR, I think some people just like to tinker and bodge. The floppy plastic works fine on a Paynes nuc. (The side feeder is stupid, but I leave it as it is. It's insulation.)
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Also, DR, I think some people just like to tinker and bodge. The floppy plastic works fine on a Paynes nuc. (The side feeder is stupid, but I leave it as it is. It's insulation.)
> Kitta


Oh no! I was ready to roll over and play dead till you mentioned those diabolical plastic crown boards
Now Kitta be honest how many times have you chased one down a field 
How many hours have you spent flapping the stupid think trying to get bees from underneath
How many times just as you were about to put the lid on has the slightest touch made one corner drop in
How many hours have you spent trying to scrape wax of the bendy plastic
Shaking water off the underside as condensation forms
Keeping it miles away from your smoker 

That's more akin to a kite than a crown board  

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## drumgerry

Ach DR they're alright really.  Floppy isn't necessarily bad....ahem  :Wink:   I love the Paynes nucs  - make getting wee marginal units through the winter a piece of cake (usually).  I can put up with their little foibles in exchange for that simple fact.

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## madasafish

> That's true fatshark but isn't that the whole thing about using poly hives they always seem to involve some lash up or bodging 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk



I use my MB Lang poly with no alterations at all..  It's ideal for simple beekeepers..like me:-)

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Oh no! I was ready to roll over and play dead till you mentioned those diabolical plastic crown boards
> Now Kitta be honest how many times have you chased one down a field ...


Ha ha!  Aren't you confusing a polythene sheet with a floppy polycarbon crown board? I have chased after plastic sheets.

If you have condensation under your floppy crown bards, DR, then you need to add some more insulation above them.  I fill the Paynes eke with extra insulation - no condensation.

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

That's what I'm talking about though Kitta there should be enough insulation or a better crownboard 
These are supposed to be an improvement on cedar not a retrograde step lol 😂


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## The Drone Ranger

> I use my MB Lang poly with no alterations at all..  It's ideal for simple beekeepers..like me:-)


If only I had started with Langstroth
Cheap gear and short lugs bliss 😭


Kitta[/QUOTE]


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## The Drone Ranger

By the way kitta

I'm impressed by your idea for Shakespearean crown Bards

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## The Drone Ranger

> Ach DR they're alright really.  Floppy isn't necessarily bad....ahem   I love the Paynes nucs  - make getting wee marginal units through the winter a piece of cake (usually).  I can put up with their little foibles in exchange for that simple fact.


Were none of them gnawed by rodents or bored into by wasps Drumgerry?
 Mine were I should have painted them apparently what a flipping nuisance

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## drumgerry

Funnily enough not the nucs but I had a few big Paynes hives in a shed - bought a few years ago in the sale and as yet unused - and they have been severely chewed.  Not happy about that I can tell you.  I wouldn't buy any more of those but the wee jobs are rare and handy things.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> By the way kitta
> 
> I'm impressed by your idea for Shakespearean crown Bards


Probably just wishful thinking, DR.  I can't sing (or recite) the praises of the Paynes poly nuc roofs.  Yes, they ought to be better.
Kitta

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## madasafish

> If only I had started with Langstroth
> Cheap gear and short lugs bliss ��
> 
> 
> Kitta



Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


I went from TBH to Langs. It was an easy decision. As a physicist and engineer, the National hive looks like it was designed by a committee who wanted to make it as complex and expensive as possible without fulfilling any useful function. Brood and a half anyone?  :-)

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## The Drone Ranger

Lol I'm designing a new hive with foot long frame lugs
It does waste a bit of timber and get a bit wide to fit in a car
But what a handhold you can get on those frames

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## Mellifera Crofter

Some gremlin put my name on that quote from DR, Madasafish.  My natural inclination would be to go for the foot-long frame lugs!
Kitta

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## madasafish

> Some gremlin put my name on that quote from DR, Madasafish.  My natural inclination would be to go for the foot-long frame lugs!
> Kitta


Are you describing my ears? If so, "foot long" is an exaggeration :-)

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## The Drone Ranger

Bit cool today so assembled a Maisemore hive with double brood box an then painted it
Quite enjoyed doing it 
You get a hive strap and a queen excluder which is nice
If I did a few I probably wouldn't paint them it too slow and messy

The Lyson's came painted and have better frame rails 
They are assembled as well so that's good 
No strap or queen excluder though
 They have strange holes in the super and brood box 
You get polystyrene bits to plug them up they are white and look weird
On the whole both kinds are OK 
I'm going to photo them side by side when the paint dries and I might put a Smith beside them for comparison  :Smile: 

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## Kate Atchley

> ......
> 
> The Lyson's came painted and have better frame rails 
> They are assembled as well so that's good 
> No strap or queen excluder though 
> They have strange holes in the super and brood box 
> You get polystyrene bits to plug them up they are white and look weird....


My Lysons were supplied with Q excluders ... decent thick plastic ones which I'll try out. Usually use the wooden-framed ones with bee space.

I fancy using those "strange holes" in the boxes some day as side entrances for queen rearing using a split brood box. Don't hold your breath though ... won't get round to that for a while.

Meanwhile have been enjoying cracked good weather here and the colonies are expanding faster than I've seen for some years.

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## Lancs Lad

I use Paynes poly hives and in the last five years haven't had a problem, the only modification I did was to saw off the 747 landing boards, I also only use a plastic sheet as a crown board.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I use Paynes poly hives and in the last five years haven't had a problem, the only modification I did was to saw off the 747 landing boards, I also only use a plastic sheet as a crown board.


yes my friend uses Paynes and likes them a lot
the thin plastic crown board got the heave in favour of some wooden ones
If you are not trying to integrate them with existing national gear They might be a good option with the metal frame rails 
Our rodent population  gave the nucs the thumbs up for taste and texture although they turn their noses up a cedar ,preferring to only munch the contents if given an opportunity  

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## The Drone Ranger

> My Lysons were supplied with Q excluders ... decent .


favouritism I didnt get a single one 
I only did the buy 6 get one free offer 
maybe I needed to buy more than that to qualify for excluders  :Smile: 

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## alancooper

> I use Paynes poly hives and saw off the 747 landing boards.


How did you do the sawing? Was it messy?
Alan.

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## prakel

> Our rodent population  gave the nucs the thumbs up for taste and texture although they turn their noses up a cedar ,preferring to only munch the contents if given an opportunity


You must have a better class of rodent up there. Here, they love cedar boxes and floors.

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## SDM

> How did you do the sawing? Was it messy?
> Alan.


You won't break a sweat cutting them by hand, run a coarse piece of sandpaper over it and paint, the only mess is the poly equivalent of saw dust.

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## The Drone Ranger

> You must have a better class of rodent up there. Here, they love cedar boxes and floors.


Do you have some Coypu that got away from the cull  
http://www.rinse-europe.eu/blog/view/a-success-story


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## Lancs Lad

I just used a fine toothed saw for the landing boards.
WP_20160407_13_27_24_Pro.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

I'm surprised by the level of commitment there is to poly hives 
Considering that very few of them are standard in any way
And of the ones which seem to be National size the suppliers don't have stock
And one of those Swienty is only national size on the outside 
I would have liked to check one of those out but they are in short supply
The Lyson comes with one broodbox no others available
It looked promising but now I'm not sure

I bought one of the Maisemore ones to check it out
I dont want to end up with a hodge podge of stuff where broodboxes and supers are not interchengeable
Are the poly fans so blinded by the one thing, insulation that nothing else matters ?
Not trolling just asking as a potential customer... If there is poor availability, little price differentiation, no standardisation, do they really make any sense ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> And one of those Swienty is only national size on the outside
> I would have liked to check one of those out but they are in short supply
> ...
> I bought one of the Maisemore ones to check it out
> I dont want to end up with a hodge podge of stuff 
> ... If there is poor availability, little price differentiation, no standardisation, do they really make any sense ?


DR, it seems to me you are well on your way to getting that hodge podge of stuff!

I mentioned before: there are two sizes of National poly boxes: behemoths like the Maisemore National hive where the inside is the same size as a wooden national, but the outside is much larger (500x500mm); or small ones like Swienty where the outside is the same size as a wooden National (450x450mm), but the inside is smaller and take fewer frames.

The walls are 40mm thick, so either the insides match, or the outsides match.  I prefer the small size National poly boxes like Swienty where the outsides match (but if you get a Swienty, ask for an old-style roof - the new roofs do not fit over wooden boxes!).

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Kitta 
The lysons ones are the same internal and external dimensions which sounds fine till you find out they have no spare broodboxes
I think they are all a bit overpriced I can buy a Smith broodbox for £30 for first quality 
Thats cedar cut planed aged machined etc
Can't see how a dollup of polystyrene should cost nearly the same :Smile:  

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## madasafish

> Thanks Kitta 
> The lysons ones are the same internal and external dimensions which sounds fine till you find out they have no spare broodboxes
> I think they are all a bit overpriced I can buy a Smith broodbox for £30 for first quality 
> Thats cedar cut planed aged machined etc
> Can't see how a dollup of polystyrene should cost nearly the same 
> 
> Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk


The UK's prices for beekeeping equipment are inflated 100% by its insistence on a hive standard unique in the world in its inefficiency and excess cost structure##. Coupled with only UK suppliers for decades and market decline, prices have been inflated. So  to invest in tooling (£100k for a national poly?)  you must  charge higher prices as volumes are much lower than say Langs..

## long lugs and excess woodwork at top and bottom to accommodate them are the hallmark of adherence to a design outdated when it was first produced. A Langstroth is simpler and uses less wood and tooling, machining and assembly time..

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> I think they are all a bit overpriced I can buy a Smith broodbox for £30 for first quality 
> Thats cedar cut planed aged machined etc
> Can't see how a dollup of polystyrene should cost nearly the same 
> ...


You made me look at prices for wooden hives, DR.  I did not realise Nationals are so much more expensive than Smiths! But I suppose it's understandable - as MaaF said, all that extra work involved in making Nationals.

Still - for you, maybe not that much cheaper, but the bees will be better off.

I've just now spoken to somebody at Abelo.  He says they will get brood boxes in to sell on their own - perhaps July.  

Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

> ... I've just now spoken to somebody at Abelo.  He says they will get brood boxes in to sell on their own - perhaps July.  
> 
> Kitta


I've just received two Lyson brood boxes from Abelo. I ordered these extra ones along with three hives in February and the hives came early April. So I guess I was some way up in the queue for the brood boxes once they came in. Surely they'll have have caught up with the back orders soon.

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## The Drone Ranger

> The UK's prices for beekeeping equipment are inflated 100% by its insistence on a hive standard unique in the world in its inefficiency and excess cost structure##. Coupled with only UK suppliers for decades and market decline, prices have been inflated. So  to invest in tooling (£100k for a national poly?)  you must  charge higher prices as volumes are much lower than say Langs..
> 
> ## long lugs and excess woodwork at top and bottom to accommodate them are the hallmark of adherence to a design outdated when it was first produced. A Langstroth is simpler and uses less wood and tooling, machining and assembly time..


I think your right madasafish

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## greengumbo

Well I got some bees into my lovely shiny and painted poly swienty langs last night  :Smile:  Combination of splits, nucs and moving bees over from my wooden hives. Happy days ! 

Other than having a panic as a bit of a delay on Wilara sending frames over from Lithuania meaning I had to go to the ridiculously expensive local Thornes as a stop gap. 

Had a bit of trouble figuring out the stupid frame runners in the brood boxes but to be honest that could have been my sleep deprived brain.

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## fatshark

What's the story on using varnish to paint (harden?) the interface between poly boxes? I've just ordered some Swienty poly broods which I'll be mix'n'matching with my homegrown wooden floors and crownboards.

What make of varnish? How many coats? Do you use vaseline?

I'm preparing for winter already ....  :Wink:

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## madasafish

I used Hammerite Garage Door #  paint to paint my MB poly hives, Two coats - a week apart (it was winter and painted in the garage)... three years later and it looks like new.

# the solvent in the paint dissolves a thin layer of poly and makes a very strong surface,,

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## fatshark

Not the outside ... the interface where the box contacts the floor or the crownboard. These are the bits that get all the attention from hive tool.

However, also interested to know the coverage you get from the Hammerite garage Door paint (those boxes look good, though I hate painting all those little handholds) ... do you thin it, can you apply it with a spray gun and how many boxes can you cover from each 750ml can?

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## madasafish

> Not the outside ... the interface where the box contacts the floor or the crownboard. These are the bits that get all the attention from hive tool.
> 
> However, also interested to know the coverage you get from the Hammerite garage Door paint (those boxes look good, though I hate painting all those little handholds) ... do you thin it, can you apply it with a spray gun and how many boxes can you cover from each 750ml can?


I just painted by brush from the tin. One 750ml can had about 1/5th left over..After two coats..

Yes you can thin and spray... I don't have a spraygun and painting in a garage spraying without air extraction is not recommended..

Edit: I painted the interface between boxes where the hive tool goes.. NOT the actual join on MB boxes - as they would stick together...

I would take a picture but it is raining and the box is full of bees and QCs.. (in the supers)

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## Calluna4u

> Not the outside ... the interface where the box contacts the floor or the crownboard. These are the bits that get all the attention from hive tool.


That's not what the advice was about. If the grade of poly is decent the SMALL amount of compression that arises from normal use of the hive tool actually makes the poly tougher.

The varnish advice was for two reasons. The first version of the National/Smith was, for reasons of economy at the outset, made moulded to the correct frame height rather than with special slots in them for fitting frame rests. Thus meant that from time to time there would need to be cleaning of the poly surface done, and in most cases this would be by hive tool or perhaps by knife. Putting a tougher surface on the material thus protected it from damage.

Also there is the issue of bees chewing at the boxes, and the interface between boxes, unless kept almost obsessively clear of bits and pieces, and NEVER used for fly board splits, is an area where some degree of light ingress happens. This can be by small gaps between the boxes, or, especially in the Nationals made to be compatible size wise with wood, due to translucence of the material letting in increased light in the frame rest area. More light getting can mean the bees start looking for an alternative entrance and begin chewing at the material, and over a protracted period start to erode away at the walls of the box. This varnishing makes it very hard for the bees to get their little jaws into the poly and start to chew it. So the rebate area is important, and the reason the bottom edges of the box are treated the same is that, in upper boxes, they are part of the same recess that the rebate form and the bees can chew at the upper side of the recess (part of the box above) as well as the part that is the lower box.

It has become a rather corrupted message in the UK as everyone adds their own spin as to reasons for this that and the next thing, but these were the real original reasons, and I helped write it in conjunction with my Scandinavian colleagues with long experience of the boxes.

Hive tool damage is largely mythical unless you go mad with it along the rebate. We have 20 year old boxes used every year in the brood nest, and even they show very little hive tool marking. There have been, however some seriously crappy soft, crumbly or brittle poly versions produced over the years, and still are.

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## fatshark

All clear now, many thanks. These are Swienty, so hopefully not "_ crappy soft, crumbly or brittle_"  :Wink:

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## Calluna4u

> All clear now, many thanks. These are Swienty, so hopefully not "_ crappy soft, crumbly or brittle_"


Depends which model you have. Most of their own branded stuff is made by Styropak and is excellent with a good smooth finish to it. Some of the other provenances they occasionally use can be a bit variable. Have had a very poor consignment of roofs that were way under specified density and crumbled. They came from an independent moulder in Sweden.

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## The Drone Ranger

Painting nucs is easier using a paint pad because you don't have to thin the paint  or cope with overspray and breathing masks etc
http://www.harrisbrushes.com/how-to/paintpads



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## The Drone Ranger

Still out of stock !!

https://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/poly-hi...ive-brood-box/
I bought some of these hives (7) they come prepainted 
But brood boxes have been out of stock since Spring on the website

No doubt someone will come along to say if you ring Damien he will rustle you up a few
Pretty poor never the less


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## Mellifera Crofter

> Still out of stock !!
> ...
> No doubt someone will come along to say if you ring Damien he will rustle you up a few
> Pretty poor never the less


Yes - give Damien a ring!  I'm sure you'll get them before next spring.  Are you happy with your seven Abelos, DR?
Kitta

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## mpenn

I bought 7 this year very happy with them but will need to double brood next year I spoke to Damian yesterday and he told me they will be delivered by end of October if that's of any help

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## The Drone Ranger

> Are you happy with your seven Abelos, DR?
> Kitta


Hi Kitta
Put it this way
I went to Thornes sale and bought 10 Smith brood boxes 10 smith floors and 10 smith roofs


My detour into the land of polystyrene is at an end (other than poly nucs)

Poly hives are all soft easily damaged 
Not insect proof let alone rodent proof
Thymol melts the polystyrene
Heat melts the polystyrene 
They aren't particularly cheap
The ones with lips on the boxes squash bees
The ones without lips slip around like a stack of fish boxes
Some have no frame rails
Some have polystyrene frame rails
The Lyson hard plastic edges are so slippy even a breeze shifts them
Some are full of unnecessary holes 
Most are way oversize so don't fit with any other equipment
There is no standard so they are not interchangeable
The silly floppy plastic crown boards are a menace
Being out of stock of the basic components for a whole year is ridiculous
So much condensation forms they all need OMF's to try and fix it
They are not environmentally friendly in any way

While they might be comparable to some soft pine cheapo hive, they are not in the same league as even the sale quality English cedar boxes, let alone the real thing
But each to his own I say , like Tofu , crystal healing , and homeopathy, So in the parlance of  Dragons den  "I'm out "  :Smile: 








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## Mellifera Crofter

😂 
I don't agree about the condensation though, and the other problems are surmountable.

What are you going to do with your Abelos?

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## fatshark

Yes, yes, but other than that, they're excellent DR.

Seriously though ... your comments represents a compounded comment on the range of poly hive available. Stick to one and the problems/issues are less, though all are damaged with heat in the same way that all cedar boxes burn nicely. 

And the ones with lips *are* an abomination.

I also don't see any difference in terms of condensation when compared with cedar, though all mine are on OMF's.

I've invested this year as well and reserve judgement for a season or two. No stock issues with CWJ  :Big Grin:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> And the ones with lips *are* an abomination.
> 
> I also don't see any difference in terms of condensation when compared with cedar, though all mine are on OMF's. ...


Yes, I agree about the lipped ones.  Having bought some Abelos, I can now sell those (so I shouldn't condemn them too loudly just now).

As for condensation, I tend to keep the inspection trays in - certainly over winter and often until late spring or even later, and I'm not aware of condensation problems.  But I do add extra insulation in the shallow I use as a feeder eke.  So, if condensation forms, it's probably running off from the walls rather than dripping on the bees.

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Yes, yes, but other than that, they're excellent DR.
> 
> Seriously though ... your comments represents a compounded comment on the range of poly hive available. Stick to one and the problems/issues are less, though all are damaged with heat in the same way that all cedar boxes burn nicely.


Hi fatshark and Kitta 
Thing is if you stick to cedar Smith hives Or even nationals you can buy them from anybody they all fit
As soon as you buy a poly hive you are locked in to one supplier 
Oxalic evaporation is a good Winter treatment which is made more complicated by easily melted poly
I'm not a fan as you can tell but I can see the materials use for nucs that is mainly because its cheap
I have both Maisemore and Payne's and they both have design issues but on the whole the Maisemore are better
They have a feeder on top so that's a cost saving over buying a separate £10 Payne's one
They don't have a slot with a huge thick flat area which squashes bees
If you have a double brood nuc then the upper Payne's box meets that fat wall squashing bees
The Maisemore doesn't come with a plastic cover and if you buy one it costs £2 and is barely big enough to cover the top of the nuc
It's fractionally less functional than the thin Payne's cover which flops in or blows away on all but the calmest of days
The bees stick the Maisemore feeder to the top of the frames which is a nuisance and the lip means no twisting to get it free 
No you have to lift it up first then twist while trusting to luck or having plenty spare queens

The good news is that when someone comes up with a sensible no lip, no squash, no stick design, they will get all the business 

 :Smile: 



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## Calluna4u

Wow...quite a devastating critique.......sad to see I am doing it all wrong.

Seriously though, some of your issues are UK specific, and are the fault of the disparate voices of UK beeks, all with their own wrinkle on how it should be for them. You end up with a range of non compatible products all of which look as if they have been designed by a committee of 2 to 6 hives people all of whom have THE answer and succeed in getting it added to the design. It would be better if the makers stayed focussed and did NOT listen to their audience at the likes of Stoneleigh.

You do not see some of these features in boxes in other countries.

The idea that you cannot get compatible gear is a complete myth, just be careful what you buy at the outset. MOST poly gear sold is very simple top bee space Langstroth with flush edges and you can buy it from a large number of suppliers. The last lot we bought (albeit a large number) were under £10 per deep box, flush edged poly Lang deeps that take the frames from most international suppliers without any compatibility issues. SOME makers....actively selling in the UK....have intentionally pushed a variant that locks people in, and the nature of many UK beeks is that once they have chosen, they become an advocate of the one they selected, perpetuating the problem.

Lipped boxes? A horror show, but nonetheless someone's bright idea. Partly amateur pressure, partly folk looking at the ReaDan ones from Denmark, where many of the visions of a poly future came from.

Hard edges? Not needed in the slightest, very slippy, and actually make a cold spot. One maker told me they added them after complaints from beeks who would not start in poly as they were too soft unless they made the edges hard. Taking opinions on functionality from those who never tried them just HAS to be an error.

Condensation? Never seen any issue with it and find wooden boxes worse. Roofs that are too thin from some makers are an issue. Condensation WILL be a problem if the least insulated face of the broodnest is the one overhead.

Soft? Well it varies. Brittle? Can be, a particular issue with boxes made by a casting process rather than moulding. The very hardest boxes we have are Polish, and may or may not be from the same maker as Abelo use, but they are very biscuity and shatter easily.

Flimsy crown boards? They are just a fig leaf to provide something compatible with British traditionalism. They are most definitely not needed and in fact are a thing to bin in most cases. They ARE a small advantage in poly nucs where having a peek at progress without needing the smoker is good.

Odd you think having an extra feeder to go on top is an advantage in the nucs....we find the integral side feeder is just fine , the exception would be if we needed to add a block of fondant, but this need has never arisen up to now.

Yes poly can melt or catch fire if you apply heat or flame.   BUT........why do so?  Easily sterilised by basic chemicals (dilute NaOH for example)...... and besides....I value getting lovely fresh comb drawn up to mid October in poly and being able to feed a full supply of syrup until mid November at least and they take it. Can't do that in wood.

Ones without lips slip around like fish boxes? Yes, but only when brand spanking new. So do wood. All are just fine once used and there is wax and propolis on the surfaces. The bees stick them together just the same.

Of course I have both Smith and Lang in wood....hundreds of them...........and poly Langs...also hundreds over 2 units. Have the statistics on them going back to 1997, but in statistically significant numbers since 2000.  Over that period the poly hives out produced the wood by about 20%, and I have covered winter losses and spring bee power before. Losses and small colonies much much fewer in poly. That can only be a statistic of no interest if your wooden hives never have any losses and are always full of bees, and if the heather is of no great importance. They carry their bee power for 10 days or more longer at the heather, which is the big difference as they can work longer and do well in a late season. The only reasons for not replacing all with poly are that we want more hives, so I add poly as an extra, and have a family roots attachment to the Smith wooden unit.

Sublimated oxalic acid might well be  a point..................but its something we have never done AND attachments are available I believe to enable this to be done without damage, plus some have drilled a hole and fitted a short piece of pipe to enable access. However all the faffing about with blocking off mesh floors etc makes this an unattractive option and the trickling works just fine (and its a single visit) unless the colony is small, in which case we would choose a non oxalic route anyway. (We never close off the floors and never use any inserts.) (Of course none of us are thinking of oxalic acid as anything other than a wood bleach now as there is a licensed product on the market.)

As for someone getting all the business if they deal with all that list of gripes? Never happen in the UK. There is no uniformity of opinion in wooden hives after 100 years.....poly has a LONG way to go to reach even that level of disharmony, in this, the most difficult, awkward, opinionated, diverse, and thus expensive, market in the world. The UK is a tiny market, and sliced into literally hundreds of dearly held variants. Despite their general unpopularity and high pricing, I do feel rather for UK manufacturers. In many cases they just can never win.

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## madasafish

I have one MB poly jumbo Lang. It's fine: I don't squash bees - no more than wooden. As an amateur I can afford the extra 20 seconds to smoke the edges when replacing.

Subsequent edit: I won it as a prize...

I have  7 (home built) wooden jumbo Langs- a mix of cheap shuttering ply and wood.

Condensation: none internal in the poly. Around the roof join yes - but external - and a poly top hat stopped that. ALL the wooden ones would have lots but I use poly hive cosies (roof 100mm, sides 50mm). Easy to lift off. 2kg max. No condensation.

All my hives have minimal operator damage despite being a bit ham handed..I have dropped full boxes before !! so wear steel capped boots during manipulations. :Big Grin: 

Most of the criticisms of poly hives in my view relate to operator error  or the wrong choice. :Cool: 

British Beekeeping is- in my personal view-  in the stone age.. the BBKA have an article in October's magazine questioning the value of hive insulation - by a Scottish beekeeper!!!!  All opinion without one single fact or study to back it up.  As someone brought up in a scientific discipline, I find the attitudes and approaches of many all a bit Middle Ages before the Age of Enlightenment..


Sorry for the rant..

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## mbc

I have abelo, swienty and modern beekeeping poly nats. 
The abelo joby is good to go out of the box and any slipiness is dealt with by a bit of propolis once occupied as C4u says, the swienty are also good but need paint and varnish and my old style ones have flat frame rests which take some care not to squish bees on, both are fully interchangeable and compatible with wood bottom bee space gear. The modern beekeeping  abomination is the devils own turd to work, squishes bees for fun, isn't compatible with anything but more of the same cockwombleing design and I wouldn't get any more if they were offered at a tenth of the price.

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## The Drone Ranger

Condensation is because of the plastic fig leaf true enough 
I'm sure C4u that you are doing it right for you needs 
I wasn't thinking of you
I'm just  giving opinion of the ones I have bought not the people who use them who are all lovely

Smith cedar hives are simple, solid, top bee space, don't slip, don't need painting, are available everywhere,are pretty cheap in Thornes sale, the short lug frames are sensible , they are easy to treat with apibolloxal ,the edges are slim they don't squash bees, you can twist them to release boxes, crown boards are solid, you don't need to strap them to stop the lids blowing off, they don't have gimmicks like extra holes etc
Apart from that though they are definitely not as good as polystyrene
I wish I had started with Langstroth hives but its too late to revisit that now
So you chaps that use them are right on that score
Its still windy outside so I have been checking the straps on the nucs before the lids end up in the next county

I'm just hard to please but I'm not suggesting that's anyone's fault but mine own  :Smile: 

I have the components for another hive monitoring board maybe I should put one on a poly hive and one on a Smith hive to get some comparison of hive environments during the Winter







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## gavin

> I have abelo, swienty and modern beekeeping poly nats. 
> The abelo joby is good to go out of the box and any slipiness is dealt with by a bit of propolis once occupied as C4u says, the swienty are also good but need paint and varnish and my old style ones have flat frame rests which take some care not to squish bees on, both are fully interchangeable and compatible with wood bottom bee space gear. The modern beekeeping  abomination is the devils own turd to work, squishes bees for fun, isn't compatible with anything but more of the same cockwombleing design and I wouldn't get any more if they were offered at a tenth of the price.


My contribution to this debate (other than polys are usually good for bees - colony survival, building, maintenance of brood in iffy summers, honey yield - just find ways to deal with thin plastic covers and mitigate bee squashing and buy Swienties and Paynes or Maisemore nucs) is .....  

Nice to see 'jobby' (aka jobbie) used by a non-Scottish contributer.  In the meaning a thing, and example of a kind of thing.  It is a word that was used frequently (both meanings) in my younger days and you don't hear it enough these days. 

The wombling thing is new to me.

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## The Drone Ranger

https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?r...roduct_id=7386
£11 flash sale Smith Brood Box
Nuff said  :Smile: 

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## gavin

> https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?r...roduct_id=7386
> £11 flash sale Smith Brood Box
> Nuff said 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Smith brood box £13 for 10 or more.
Smith super £11 for 10 or more.

Still a good price though :-)

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## Calluna4u

> and you don't hear it enough these days. 
> .


If you are suffering from jobbie deficiency disorder....the well known medical condition JDD......a regular portion of heather honey in the comb twice a day should alleviate the symptoms.

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## Black Comb

I haven't read all the posts in this thread (60 pages).
So, may I ask, could I use a Swienty Lang. BB with my Thornes Lang cedar supers?
Would I also need a Swienty floor?

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## Kate Atchley

If it's the same as for nationals, the answers are Yes and No. Floors, roofs and boxes interchangeable with wooden equipment.

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## Black Comb

Thanks Kate.
I will try a couple.
Is CWJ the only UK stockist?

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## Kate Atchley

> ...I will try a couple.
> Is CWJ the only UK stockist?


I bought from CWJ and don't know of other UK suppliers ... you could ask Swienty perhaps http://www.swienty.com/uk/contactus.asp?

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## fatshark

The only slight concern I have about the Swienty boxes I bought is the lack of a rebate on the bottom of the box to leave space over the frame lugs when you have a double brood. Do they get propolised together badly? Mine only went into the boxes a few weeks ago so won't go up to double brood until some time in the dim and distant future ...

PS Solway Bee Supplies also sell 'em ...

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## mbc

The swienty national poly hive roof has a rim on three sides which can be used as a floor for a vertical split.

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## prakel

*Langstroth:*




> I will try a couple.
> Is CWJ the only UK stockist?


Paynes also sell them although marginally dearer than CWJ, however their free postage kicks in at a lower limit than the Welsh firm's so depending on items/order size there might be a small saving.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The only slight concern I have about the Swienty boxes I bought is the lack of a rebate on the bottom of the box to leave space over the frame lugs when you have a double brood. Do they get propolised together badly? ...


Yes, Fatshark - horribly so.  I escaped the problem with double brood because I discovered the propolising problem before I had my bees on double brood.

The top box (the super in my case) got propolised onto frame lugs in the bottom one which meant all the bottom frames lifted up as I lifted the top box.  Twisting the box did not help to free them either.  The bees were understandably furious by this kerfuffle.

I now cut the plastic lug rests down by about 2mm to create a bit of space above the frames.

Kitta

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## fatshark

Grrrrr. The bees are of course *in* the boxes in which the frame rest would have to be trimmed. Maybe I'll use a cedar box on top. If they're strong enough to need a second box they should be OK temperature-wise. Ho hum. Something to tackle next season

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## Mellifera Crofter

(?) Trim the lug risers in the new box; move the bees over; trim the lug risers in the old box - and add it as the top box.  But trimming the lug risers by a sliver is easy for me because I have a bandsaw.  I can see that trimming them might be more difficult if you don't have a bandsaw.
Kitta

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## gavin

> I now cut the plastic lug rests down by about 2mm to create a bit of space above the frames.


Thanks Kitta.  I'm likely to tackle some double brood Swienty Nationals back from the heather either this afternoon or tomorrow.  

2mm sounds a bit small so I've just been playing with empty boxes and agree that is about right.  Beats gluing 'bee space rims' on the undersides of my Swienty poly feeders. The lack of top space together with the flat roofs and feeder bottoms does also cause problems with Swienty Nationals.  No issues with top bee space hives.

The lug riser plastic L-pieces have a lift of 17mm (the inside leg measurement).  Used as intended all but 6mm of that is used up because the slit is 11mm down the wall.

So frames are lifted 6mm.

A brand new Thornes top bar (DN4) sits about 0.5mm below the edge of the box.  A layer of paint (and varnish if that is your way) might increase that slightly.

In other words there is 6.5 to 7mm to play with and your 2mm off would be about right to split that gap into two - about 4mm under the lugs and maybe 3mm above them. 

Is 3mm enough of a bee space to avoid squashing and inhibit propolising?

Assuming that L-shaped plastic trim is usually measured on the outside edges 15mmx10mm trim would be ideal.  Haven't yet found any online ...

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## James O

> The only slight concern I have about the Swienty boxes I bought is the lack of a rebate on the bottom of the box to leave space over the frame lugs when you have a double brood. Do they get propolised together badly? Mine only went into the boxes a few weeks ago so won't go up to double brood until some time in the dim and distant future ...
> 
> PS Solway Bee Supplies also sell 'em ...


Go for 14x12 and problem solved.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Is 3mm enough of a bee space to avoid squashing and inhibit propolising?  ...


I think it helps, Gavin - but now I'm watching out that I'm not squashing drones below the lugs!  But that's fairly easy to watch out for.

I spoke to somebody who said she is advising Swienty on their Swienty Nationals and she couldn't understand why I have a problem with the lugs.  As for me, I can't understand why she can't see that there is a problem.

Swienty aren't only ones failing to provide a space above the frame lugs.  I have a similar problem with Maisiemore nucs.  With them I now cut out the integral polystyrene lug rise - so they end up being just a flat lug rests.  Also not ideal.

(None of these problems with Abelos.)

Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Go for 14x12 and problem solved.


You  mean you don't have to use double broods?  But you still have the space problem between the brood box and the super - except if you use queen excluders, I suppose, and I mostly don't.
Kitta

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## James O

> You  mean you don't have to use double broods?  But you still have the space problem between the brood box and the super - except if you use queen excluders, I suppose, and I mostly don't.
> Kitta


Yes, I should have been more expansive. I always use queen excluders.
I find that 10 frame swienty national brood are too small for most colonies, double brood I find too big and a pain when doing routine inspections. 14x12 works well for me as it provides enough room and inspections are more straightforward, so long as they have drawn out the foundation to the frame edges.

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMITH-Hive...AAAOSwxg5X0yuS
You wont squash bees in these Smith hives just spotted them on Ebay £113 inc delivery 
s-l1600.jpg

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## alancooper

Just seen an ad on e-bay for a black plastic bee hive wrap. A quick "google" shows they are used with wooden hives by some in north America. A drawback seems to be condensation. Has anyone in SBA experience in using them?

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## madasafish

> Just seen an ad on e-bay for a black plastic bee hive wrap. A quick "google" shows they are used with wooden hives by some in north America. A drawback seems to be condensation. Has anyone in SBA experience in using them?


Bee Equipment (Mann Lake as was) sell them .

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## gavin

I've never heard of anyone wrapping hives in Scotland but I'm sure that someone somewhere has tried.  In fact I don't think I've heard of anyone in Scotland using 'cosies' which seem all the rage on another forum.  Polystyrene hives, yes, for sure.  Murray has discussed the benefit of them previously - which usually means that hives properly fed and with Varroa under control generally have losses just related to queen failure in the easier winters.  Wooden hives, yes, some people put insulation (polystyrene slab, carpet, clothing) above the crownboard and that must help.  But not wrapping.

Some wraps may be to help protect from green woodpeckers.  Although we have a scattered population of them I haven't heard of them damaging hives here.

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## fatshark

> Some wraps may be to help protect from green woodpeckers.  Although we have a scattered population of them I haven't heard of them damaging hives here.


Interestingly (or perhaps not) this is apparently learned behaviour. In the Midlands the birds regularly targeted cedar or poly hives (they go through either with almost equal ease). I've still got one or two floors with damage from the little blighters. I've seen a few green woodpeckers in Fife but hope they have yet to learn this bad habit. I used to use DPM (damp proof membrane) as being nearly indestructible and relatively inexpensive. Condensation wasn't really an issue as they were so badly fitted ;-)

On a related point ... I've just received a big pile of bright blue and yellow Abelo hives which are on special offer at £96 for a full hive.

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## The Drone Ranger

Freezing today but stumbled across a really bad video I made in Summer using my phone as a camera 
Only watch if you are really getting bee keeping withdrawal symptoms  :Smile: 
https://youtu.be/xsSyVFwLxgI

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## Thymallus

> On a related point ... I've just received a big pile of bright blue and yellow Abelo hives which are on special offer at £96 for a full hive.


That might explain why I've just got 10 brood boxes all in green! You got all the nice blue and yellow ones that my better half likes  :Big Grin: 
Wanna swap?

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## fatshark

Sorry ... I chose that colour to make sure I despoiled part of Aberdeenshire in due course. A bit very near greengumbo. 
First impressions were ... thank goodness that lot are painted, what a lot of fiddly bits (upper entrance blocks, feeder insulators, vents _etc._) to lose and that the poly was nice and dense.

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## Thymallus

> First impressions were ... thank goodness that lot are painted, .


It makes a huge difference!

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## Thymallus

Meant to add I just leave off the round polystyrene crown board covers until winter. The crown board acts as a great travel screen and there is just enough lip that you can pin one of those 8 way clearer's under the center hole for clearing supers. The extra entrances do get used in a flow, if you can remember to open them. Not sure how much difference it makes at the moment but in heavy flows it does seem to reduce congestion around the main entrance. Other times they just seem to create an extra access point that needs guarding.

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## lindsay s

I made up a few splits in both wooden and poly nucs this summer. I checked the two everynucs last week, the first was split mid-June (poly 1) and the second about ten days later (poly 2). Poly 1 has done very well with brood on all 5 frames so Ive moved it into a cedar smith hive with extra frames and fed. In poly 2 the queen was mated much later and now has 2½ frames of mostly open brood and is being fed from a top poly feeder (I might put it back on with candy in it midwinter).  The entrance is closed down to about an inch with mesh and I intend to leave the mesh floor insert in to cut down on the draughts. As youve used them overwinter Fatshark do you have any other tips.

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## fatshark

I've only kept a couple through Scottish winters (the rest were in the Midlands, so doesn't really count). I've lost overwintered nucs through queen failures and starvation. The former is unavoidable. The latter is. Feed them very thoroughly and be prepared to top them up if needed. 

The poly nucs I like best (Everynuc by Thorne's) have a feeder at the end of the box - not ideal. 

Overwintering in Paynes poly nucs was much easier - I just made a thick lid from kingspan with a central hole to hold a block of fondant directly over the cluster. Your suggestion about using the top feeder is probably wise, but if they have to travel out, up, and along they might not get there ... I'm going to butcher a couple of top feeders by drilling through the base to provide direct access.

I don't think I ever closed the bottom mesh ... I simply can't remember! The entrances on the Everynucs are an abomination and are larger than those on my double brood hives ... I just wedge a block of closed cell foam to make them much smaller (and easier to defend).

On a related point ... I make frame feeders for mini-nucs with one side made from queen excluder. I've long thought these would be an ideal way to drop food in directly next to the winter cluster.

But, after all that ... I'm not sure I'll have any to overwinter this year. Almost everything is in a full size box already ...

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## lindsay s

Thanks for that Fatshark. If you remove the mesh from the poly feeder that will leave room for small blocks of candy to sit right on top of the frames without butchering it. It's nice to know your splits/nucs have done well, we can't afford to lose any up here.

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## Poly Hive

A general point that seems not to widely understood let alone known is that when B. Mobus did his research into ventilation in the floors it was always coupled with insulation above the CB. And the CB's were solid and he emphasised that strongly. 

PH

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## prakel

The latest nuc (from the BS Honeybee guys) is almost here:

https://www.bshoneybees.co.uk/polynuc

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## Mellifera Crofter

That looks promising.  Plenty of space above the top bars - so, none of all that squashing of bees as in all the other polyhive nucs.
Kitta

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## Poly Hive

All of them?

Mine have top bee space.

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

A National, PH?  Which one?
Kitta

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## steve

Paynes poly nucs are top bee space.

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## Calluna4u

> A National, PH?  Which one?
> Kitta


Not sure what you mean Kitta. The Paynes ones are top bee space...have hundreds of them.20170815_111059.jpg

Bees walking about perfectly happy under the plastic cover board. You don't want it deeper than that as they will make a real horses derriere of brace comb. Not worth sacrificing a space that rarely needs scraping for the occasional convenience of it being a candy space. ( Have NEVER needed to give one of these candy/fondant anyway.)

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## Mellifera Crofter

Sorry, C4U and Steve.  My mistake.  All the nucs have bee-squashing problems - but with the Paynes it is that inside wall rather than the tops of the frames.  I forgot and lumped them all together!  It's really difficult or almost impossible to get that inside wall cleared of bees when using a feeder or an extra brood box.  

The Everynuc is almost ok.
Kitta

PS:  Actually, I don't have a top feeder for the Paynes poly nuc, so I don't know how that fits - but there is a problem when adding the top brood box.
K

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## Poly Hive

My Swienty nucs are top bees pace as they are modded Langstroths. 

PH

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## Calluna4u

> Sorry, C4U and Steve.  My mistake.  All the nucs have bee-squashing problems - but with the Paynes it is that inside wall rather than the tops of the frames.  I forgot and lumped them all together!  It's really difficult or almost impossible to get that inside wall cleared of bees when using a feeder or an extra brood box.  
> 
> The Everynuc is almost ok.
> Kitta
> 
> PS:  Actually, I don't have a top feeder for the Paynes poly nuc, so I don't know how that fits - but there is a problem when adding the top brood box.
> K


I think you are asking for the impossible Kitta. Everything is a compromise in one way or another, and any unit (I can think of several) that takes on board all the individualistic gripes and groans they get from beekeepers end up with a bit of kit that is not particularly practical.

If the unit has an internal feeder...which I like......and you want to add a second level onto it, either a further deep or a feeder, then this unit MUST meet the internal wall or you leave a space for the queen to end up in the feed space, and that is a PITA that far outweighs the need to be careful about clearing bees from the internal wall.

I still rather scratch my head at the need for an extra box (yes, I know it works, have experimented with it myself) as once its above 6 frames, and a congested 6 frames plus a feed covers 9 or 10, surely its less long term faffing about just to promote it into a full hive there and then? Also, they take syrup late into autumn from the internal feeder and its actually two maybe three fills of the side feeder and they have adequate stores for the whole winter, and by March will take from the syrup compartment again, so I also do not see a real need to feed fondant. Have never had to but maybe we overfeed in autumn?

However, clearing the bees off the internal wall is not a big issue and its actually a lovely simple bit of kit which tinkering with would diminish. BUT...it needs a thicker roof (not deeper, just thicker for more insulation, as the winter snow melt pattern shows.)

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## The Drone Ranger

I think Kitta is right most poly nucs have some pretty bad features
Often folk take matters into their own hands, modifying them, trying to fix issues
The Maisemore feeder on top is better than the Paynes slot which is very hard to clean 
That also takes care of the thicker roof issue and condensation issues as well
They are not perfect just better
The disadvantage is you can't just look in and see through the inner cover what the bees are up to




You seldom if ever hear someone say "I bought a Smith hive or a National hive and had to add bits" (or chop them off)

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## Calluna4u

> I think Kitta is right most poly nucs have some pretty bad features
> Often folk take matters into their own hands, modifying them, trying to fix issues
> 
> 
> 
> The Maisemore feeder on top is better than the Paynes slot which is very hard to clean 
> That also takes care of the thicker roof issue and condensation issues as well


I think most such 'issues' are largely imaginary or at the very most a reflection of the individuals personal 'bees in bonnets'. Apart from the roof thickness I cannot think of one thing I would change about the Paynes (or others I don't use for that matter) that would not simply bring further, and often greater complications. Like I said before, everything is a compromise, and these compromises are seen by some as solutions and by others as problems. (Positive or negative mindset.) They are only a problem if you let them be or want them to be. Everyone wanting their own personal favourite is the reason we have the most fragmented and expensive bee appliance market in the world, and it only gets worse.

Most of the poly nucs (apart from ones with lots of bits to lose) are excellent bits of kit and delightfully simple. They have transformed nucleus production in this country in a way wooden ones never could without more work clagging on insulation than the effort is worth. There is a reason they have become popular when wooden ones did not. They work.

Cleaning the slot difficult? We just run along both sides with a hive tool or a long knife to slice off any comb they draw there (maybe one in 5 or 10 will do this) and run a wide top bar with the lug cut off down one end, draw it across the slot, and just wheech the detritus out up the other end. Do it a couple of times and all is well. 20 seconds? Most don't need cleaning at all...and if they do once they are empty nip off any comb bits as above and just turn it upside down.

Yes, the slot is a bit narrow for really easy access, but against that it is then not sufficiently wide for them to hang a full wild comb in there.......a compromise of cleaning inconvenience set against wild comb inconvenience. I know which I think would be worse. As it is they just add bits and bobs and only sometimes.

Yes...I would still have liked a thicker roof, but is it a serious defect? Not at all, its in the realm of minor improvements. Working very well with it just as it is.

I was going to make one myself at one time, but once that one arrived there was no need. Now we are going back into the British nightmare of market splintering with a number of competing styles, and not everyone will make money from it.

As for not modifying Smiths or Nationals? Well that happened long enough ago for the variants to acquire their own names (though even then people still do tinker). They want Jumbos, or mediums or enlarged boxes to take 14x12s, or they prefer modified nationals  or WBC's or Commercials or Wormits, or heaven knows what long obsolete pattern. Dave Cushman and I used to chat about this issue, and there were at that time, to his knowledge no fewer than 69 extant variants of wooden hive based on BS frames and the variations on Langstroth were less than 10. The local hive with 7 times as many variants as the international one.........something not quite right there and no wonder we have to pay through the nose for kit.

20170814_102210.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

No bees in bonnet C4u thats why my post is short 
I dont have as many Payne's as you but I suppose I had about 40 at the start of the season sold 26
Still have the rest and bought 12 more to top up
The reason is I already have 2nd boxes for that many plus top feeders
On balance the Maisemore with a top feeder are more economical and better to use in my opinion I'm gradually moving over to them now
Regarding second boxes the idea there is to overwinter on double then take the queen plus bees in the Spring for delivery April but leave enough bees behind to create another nuc on the same site 
You have your thoughts on which nucs you think are best, I dont agree but thats fine
I don't think there is any harm in saying that most poly nucs are less than perfect, because they are 


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## fatshark

> 20170814_102210.jpg


At some point along that line comes the marker that separates the individual painter + madness from the commercial and his/her employees ... for me it would be somewhere shortly after the first mustard-coloured one  :Wink:

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## Calluna4u

> You have your thoughts on which nucs you think are best, I dont agree but thats fine


Not quite what I am saying but never mind.

For Smith etc I started with the Paynes ones and am happy with them. Are they the best? I don't know but I am content with them and there is no reason for me to go into the mess of mixing makes. Had I started with Maisemore I would probably be happy with them...albeit the poly is not quite as good, at least on the ones I have seen...but then NONE of the British made poly is perfect...too 'beady'. They don't have the same type of process as in Scandinavia or Germany.  But its good enough.

Trouble is all the griping about minor stuff that comes out of UK beekeepers. I would buy it if only it did this, or that, or was that size, or took those frames, or whatever.

Last count there are now 7 moulds, all largely incompatible with eachother, in production for BS nucs. One, or maybe 2 to keep the first one price honest, is all we needed. The rest means amortising the huge mould cost away on ever smaller runs, putting the price up....yet again. We constantly shoot ourselves in the foot that way in the UK.

Keep it simple, keep it standard, have fewer options so dealers can keep less inventory and do longer more efficient production runs, and keep it economic.

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## Calluna4u

> At some point along that line comes the marker that separates the individual painter + madness from the commercial and his/her employees ... for me it would be somewhere shortly after the first mustard-coloured one


lol...with you around I am glad I did not get into my thoughts about British beekeepers individual tastes being akin to entropy and quote from the second law of thermodynamics. The longer British beekeeping goes on the more complicated and chaotic it gets......

Big dogs with large intellectual sticks make the likes of me go hide in the bushes lol......

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## The Drone Ranger

Well I think its fine to point out what we dont like about various poly hives and nucs because we are paying for them after all
If suppliers get offended tough luck
Usually its only after parting with the cash you discover the niggles 
Im always grateful to people who take the time to make their experiences known whether I agree with them or not 

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## Calluna4u

> If suppliers get offended tough luck
> Usually its only after parting with the cash you discover the niggles


I don't know any supplier who gets offended.

Some just shrug and do, what in my mind is broadly correct....keep their focus and accommodate the majority and ignore the plethora of little gripes they hear at conventions etc.

Others take it all on board and try to address the gripes, but each modification brings other issues that perhaps diminish the product in the eyes of others. You can end up with a product that deals with a lot of complaints but ends up not fit for purpose as it tries to be all things to all people and ends up with the big clients ignoring it and keeping with the simpler stuff.

Nothing is perfect in bee gear, everything is a compromise. I think we are agreed on that, just coming at it from opposite perspectives.

fwiw there is a new Langstroth nuc box coming onstream in the next two months and I have a preorder in. Its a simple one, essentially size change of the existing Paynes. I rejected the Abelo as too bitty, lots of things to lose, and the Honey Paradise and HoneyPaw ones as too expensive and too many pieces. I am disposing of my existing Tegart ones from Canada as they have poorer ventilation and are thus prone to chalk, especially with certain lines of bee. in this case there WAS a gap in the market, but many of the BS ones now coming to a market (just heard of another outfit making a mould overnight) that just does not need them, there is adequate choice out there already.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...Most of the poly nucs (apart from ones with lots of bits to lose) are excellent bits of kit and delightfully simple. ..
> 
> Yes...I would still have liked a thicker roof, but is it a serious defect? Not at all, its in the realm of minor improvements. ...





> ...Keep it simple, keep it standard, have fewer options so dealers can keep less inventory and do longer more efficient production runs, and keep it economic.





> ... Nothing is perfect in bee gear, everything is a compromise. I think we are agreed on that, just coming at it from opposite perspectives.
> ... but many of the BS ones now coming to a market (just heard of another outfit making a mould overnight) that just does not need them, there is adequate choice out there already.


I could not write sooner, but I've been thinking about this thread as I was working with my various nucs.

I understand what you're saying about the Paynes nucs, C4U.  If you want an integral feeder, then take the rough with the smooth.  Squashing bees can't be helped.  I hate those feeders and won't buy any more.   The Paynes poly nucs were the only ones available at the time when I bought them.

I also agree to keep things simple, C4U - but most of the designs we've had so far have two major flaws: not providing a bee space above the top bars and, as you've mentioned already, roofs that are too thin.  The new poly nuc Prakel mentioned seems to have corrected both of these problems - so, I think, a necessary and welcome improvement.

I have Abelo National hives, but I don't have Abelo nucs because they don't make them in Nationals.  However, looking at the photos of the Langstroth and Commercial ones, I think they look good.  Speaking from my experience with their hives, I don't see the problem with all the extra bits and bobs.  You don't have to carry them around with you.  The side plugs will stay put - so, no problem.  If you don't like the crown board plugs, then glue them shut.  Again, no problem.  Other people, like me, like the option of pulling plugs out for top openings or using the ventilation plugs when moving colonies.

I think the Abelo nucs must work similarly - use the plugs if you want them, or ignore them if you don't.  Another advantage of those nucs, from what I can see in photos, is that they don't have lipped walls and instead use clasps that's fixed to the hive for secure moving.  So, again, you don't have to carry extra stuff around with you, and I'd be pleased to have a nuc without lipped walls.

We're probably getting close to the 'adequate' mark now, C4U!

Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

I've worked with Paynes nucs, Thornes' Everynuc, Thornes' Stehr nucs and most recently Maismore nucs ... all polystyrene. The Maismore ones have lug supports and bee space and look more or less identical to the new one Prakel was telling us about, aside from it being able to be split into 2 x 3-frames. I like them. Squashing of bees can be avoided.

Paynes' built-in feeders are a pain ('scuse the pun!).

I have top feeders for all nucs now and prefer those, such as Maismore, with two troughs around a covered central slot for bees to come up to feed. I drill one side with several holes about 15mm circumference, as near the centre as possible, so I can place fondant over the brood nest in winter, if necessary. This works very well, the plastic covering of the fondant helping to prevent cooling of air rising from the bees below.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... The Maismore ones have lug supports and bee space and look more or less identical to the new one Prakel was telling us about ....


They look almost alike, Kate, but the Maisiemore ones do not have a bee space above the top bars.  I sliced off the lug rises in order to create sufficient space even though I don't like not having them, but I thought that's preferable to putting the roof or feeder down on top of the top bars and squashing bees that I can't see.  

I've copied the two images below from their websites.  The Maisiemore photo isn't very clear, but you can still see the difference.  I think there's only a tiny gap above the top bars in the Maisiemore.  I don't think it's not enough.

Kitta

HB nuc.jpg Paynes.jpg

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## Kate Atchley

Umm ... had another look Kitta and I see what you mean.

I invariably run the Maismore nucs with a top feeder and perhaps that allows a little more bee space than with the plastic cover board, though it is not much. Either way, the bees seem to get out of the way fairly effectively if I don't rush.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...Either way, the bees seem to get out of the way fairly effectively if I don't rush.


Yes, I suppose so, Kate - but it bothered me enough to slice off the  lug risers!  And Maisiemore aren't the only ones.  It's the same with the otherwise wonderful Everynuc.  I don't understand why the bee space above the top bars is being ignored.  Could there be a reason. or was it just sloppy design?
Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

> I don't understand why the bee space above the top bars is being ignored.  Could there be a reason. or was it just sloppy design?
> Kitta


I wonder if the folk who design them assume we won't use cover boards? But if you don't use one the roof gets proposed and becomes a sticky mess. So poor design I guess.

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## Poly Hive

I am beginning to think it is a way round patent law. Why else ignore the good stuff already designed in for bad stuff designed in? So the madness must be driven by £'s. Either that or they are all mad??

Had a long conversation tonight with one of the few proper Be Farmers (as in makes his living purely from bees) and he said forthrightly that given the chance to start over he would go Swienty poly. 

PH

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## fatshark

> I am beginning to think it is a way round patent law. Why else ignore the good stuff already designed in for bad stuff designed in?


Are we drifting off-topic and now discussing Api-Bioxal?

 :Wink:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... 
> Had a long conversation tonight with one of the few proper Be Farmers (as in makes his living purely from bees) and he said forthrightly that given the chance to start over he would go Swienty poly. 
> 
> PH


Nationals of Langstroths?  I don't know about the Swienty Langstroths, but their Nationals have been botched up with the same sloppy design issue of lack of bee space above the top bars.  There's no space between the top bars and the walls above them, or between the to top bars and the roof.
Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

... and I wish Swienty produced a cover board in poly, with bee space of course ... and a deeper-sided roof. The hives are good but damp can find its way in if you use a conventional cover board in the winter (or summer!) gales.

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## Poly Hive

The Swienty Nats are *sadly* bottom bee space. I run them with a plywood crown board with the obvious beespace in it and the roof over that. It's pretty simple really. Not down to Swienty to do that. They just sell the poly. 

PH

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## steve

> The Swienty Nats are *sadly* bottom bee space. I run them with a plywood crown board with the obvious beespace in it and the roof over that. It's pretty simple really. Not down to Swienty to do that. They just sell the poly. 
> 
> PH


Do you run any on double brood? That's when the poor design becomes very apparent. I can only assume their supers will also feature the poor design. removing the frame rails gives a TBS option but back to issues like trying to avoid squashing bees under the lugs.

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## Kate Atchley

I run some of mine on double nucs. They work fine and the bees don't seem to propolise the lugs between the brood boxes, so they lift apart easily enough ... but I think my bees collect less propolis than some.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The Swienty Nats are *sadly* bottom bee space. I run them with a plywood crown board with the obvious beespace in it and the roof over that. It's pretty simple really. Not down to Swienty to do that. They just sell the poly.


Yes, I think it is, PH - like in wooden hives where a bee space is included in the walls above the lugs.  The old design was ok as far as that was concerned.  The lugs lay a bit lower in the box.




> I run some of mine on double nucs. They work fine and the bees don't seem to propolise the lugs between the brood boxes, so they lift apart easily enough ... but I think my bees collect less propolis than some.


Oh, Kate, mine had been stuck so tight I couldn't even twist them apart.  I had to one by one prize the frames lose from the box above (with a lot of angry bees swirling about).  And that happened between two inspections - so, about seven days.  I've sliced the lug risers by a couple of millimetres, so they're ok now.  (I'm a lug slicer, aren't I.)

Ktta

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## Kate Atchley

Ouch! No wonder you are such an adept lug slicer!! Does it depend when you bought the Swientys I wonder? Mine were bought in 2015 and 2016 from C Wynne Jones.

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## Poly Hive

Virtually all my colonies are on double brood but I don't use the rails, never have. 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Ouch! No wonder you are such an adept lug slicer!! Does it depend when you bought the Swientys I wonder? Mine were bought in 2015 and 2016 from C Wynne Jones.


Yes, I think you'd have bought one of the new style Swienties, Kate.  If they came with plastic lug risers, then they're the new-style Swienties.
K

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## Jon

I love the Paynes nucs and find the internal feeder really useful. The thin top is the greatest weakness but that's not the end of the world either.

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## Poly Hive

There is actually a very simple way to sort out any bee space issues. B&Q for instance stock a range of mouldings. One of them is a flat 8mm x 25mm from memory. Screwed on top of the brood it makes it top bee space. A trim round the bottom of 8mm and bobs the proverbial.  :Smile: 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

And with that fix, PH, you lose some of the value of having a poly hive - don't you?

Kitta

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## Poly Hive

Umm no. I really don't think that adding 8mm of wood will make much of a difference if any at all. 

PH

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## steve

You won't screw wood or anything else to the top of a swienty national. There's nothing to screw it to where the frame lugs are, that edge is roughly 12mm and the top is bevelled. There is no getting away from the fact that they have a design fault, they overlooked the BBS rebate, so running them without rails is a work around. At least abelo has been designed as a poly version of a timber nat. Pity they weren't around a few years ago, too much kit to go swapping now.

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## Poly Hive

Actually yes you can screw into 12 mm of poly. I suggest you try it. All down to choice of wood or ply, and screws of the right size. My 12mm profile is flat BTW not bevelled. 

Personally I had no success with an Abelo Langstroth and have no intention of buying a Nat to try it. The material seemed more a plastic than poly. When two different colonies both fail to thrive when all around their sisters are thriving one gets suspicious ye ken?

PH

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## steve

Obviously you don't have the new swienty box. The 12mm of 'meat' is compromised regarding screwing because of the rounded profile, I guess there's only about 8mm in contact with anything above. The 12mm could easily have been 14mm because there is a fair gap at the lug ends, big enough that hoffman bars can slip and overlap slightly. To combat this, I lay the plastic runners on the ledge, the thickness of the rail each side makes the frames fit snugly, another work around.

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## Poly Hive

Last Swientys I bought would be now some 6 years old. If there is 8mm of the 12 flat still room to screw to. 

PH

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## The Drone Ranger

> Umm ... had another look Kitta and I see what you mean.
> 
> I invariably run the Maismore nucs with a top feeder and perhaps that allows a little more bee space than with the plastic cover board, though it is not much. Either way, the bees seem to get out of the way fairly effectively if I don't rush.


That top feeder is a great when winter feeding starts as you know Kate 
Once you have checked the bees are fine  you can just put syrup on in any weather without disturbing them at all
The Paynes means you have to take the lid off and move the inner cover to get syrup down the slot etc
The feeder also acts as a moisture trap above the bees in very cold weather as well as insulation

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## steve

I wouldn't even contemplate attaching an 8mm strip of ply onto a poly box, never mind screwing down into such a weak area

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## Poly Hive

For info back in the day the only poly available was Langstroth. In order to get anywhere near National one had to do some cutting and also use Smith top bars. The end result was poly Smith which took 12 frames and the strip behind the lugs was roughly 8mm. Unless one was VERY clumsy it worked very well. 

Poly is a bit more robust then many think and takes screws very well indeed. Just as a heads up I have been modding poly in one way or another for a fair few years now, since I think it was 90 or 91 I got my first ones and when I took over Craibstone apiary  were a good 10 if not 15 that Bernard had made and I went on from there. So give it a try, what have you got to lose? Poly glues and screws very well BTW. 

PH

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## busybeephilip

One of my sites is next to a river,  every winter i have a rat problem as they try to get into the hives by chewing around the entrances even hive stand legs and in one case through the back of a plywood 5 frame nuc box (the bees survived).    If I were to use poly there would be no way the bees would last a winter so not as robust as you might think !

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## Poly Hive

Rats will indeed attack poly no question about that but they will also attack plywood and cedar so really the issue is rat control not hive material. 

PH

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## steve

I think my observations about the swienty national are being dismissed too readily so I decided to take a few measurements so others can decide whether they are their best option if considering the poly route.
Top bar measures 432mm and the recess to take them is 438mm. That's a 6mm gap or 3mm each side from end of lug to the side wall. I lay the frame runners so they fit against the ledge and the end wall and this gets rid of the gaps.
That end wall where the lugs are is 12mm at its widest point. The whole top edge of these boxes is rounded off, which makes no odds with the thick walls but outside those lugs it certainly does. I was far too generous with my previous guesstimate, the total flat edge that comes into contact with anything above is roughly 4-5mm before it begins to curve. This area was always going to be the weak spot unless they chose a bigger footprint but it's weaker than it should/could be (ie the old design) There is no BBS rebate, they completely overlooked it.
Any way you run this hive is a work around. My own are TBS no rail bodges, it shouldn't be like that. I converted all my kit to TBS then along comes this abelo national and it has none of the nonsense, it is what it says it is. I did buy some of their roofs because again, they are a better design.
If I was starting out again, looking to integrate poly, it would be these abelo hives, it's a no brainer.

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## fatshark

I've got both the 'new' Swienty and Abelos. It's too soon to make a decision about the latter as the bees have yet to overwinter in them. However, the Abelo boxes have some good and bad design features (in my opinion). The poly is very different "hardness" and I'd like to see a comparison of their thermal properties. The hard plastic interfaces between the Abelo boxes is great as is the fact they come ready-painted. 

As noted elsewhere, I get more condensation in the Abelo all-poly boxes than my Swienty's, which are mix'n'matched with woodenware. 

One additional thing to note about the Swienty's is that they're not uniformly the "45mm thick" as usually advertised (for example on the CWJ site) ... the walls are rebated and are only 29mm thick for ~75% of the area of both side/end walls. This presumably reduces the insulation and seems a missed opportunity (or an unfortunate money-saving decision). 

I note that the 14x12's broods on the CWJ site today are 'old-style' Swienty, with uniformly thick walls ... which were ~45mm thick. All mine are their standard National broods. I suspect they haven't updated the pic as the full 14x12 hives appear to be similar to the standard Nationals.

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## James O

I've got old and new swienty brood and supers. Apart from the rail,  I prefer the old style, mainly due to the bevelled edge. The bees nibble this away very readily, making new entrances. A prominent beefarmer I spoke to said that the bees do this where light shines through. The only consolation was that he had worse problems with his paynes poly.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... and I wish Swienty produced a cover board in poly, with bee space of course ... and a deeper-sided roof. The hives are good but damp can find its way in if you use a conventional cover board in the winter (or summer!) gales.


Yes, so do I, Kate - but you could perhaps use Abelo crown boards for the Swienties ...

I've made inner crown boards for the Swienties - particularly for winter use.  They fit inside a super that I use as an eke, with extra insulation above the crown board.  I've made them out of plywood, but also 4mm twin-wall polycarbon (B&Q).  I covered the ends with aluminium tape, and the hole with Sugru (because I had some available).  A friend gave me the one on the left.  It's been cut with a laser cutter - much better than my efforts.

Kitta

Swienty inner crown boards 2.jpg

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## Kate Atchley

> I think my observations about the swienty national are being dismissed too readily ...... I converted all my kit to TBS then along comes this abelo national and it has none of the nonsense, it is what it says it is. I did buy some of their roofs because again, they are a better design.
> If I was starting out again, looking to integrate poly, it would be these abelo hives, it's a no brainer.


I agree Steve... overall the Lyson/Abelo hives do a better job: I like their deep roof and cover board into which slabs of fondant can be added in winter; their entrance, with its plastic insert, making it easy to adapt to circumstances or hive moving; the plastic surfaces of the box walls protect and make it easier to scrape off propolis; and they're painted already.

I bought several Swienty hives and several Lyson/Abelos in 2015 so they've been tested over 2 winters and 3 summers. Next year I want to try using a Lyson/Abelo brood box side entrance – or perhaps on both sides with a box divider – for vertical splits. Anyone done this?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I bought several Swienty hives and several Lyson/Abelos in 2015 so they've been tested over 2 winters and 3 summers. Next year I want to try using a Lyson/Abelo brood box side entrance  or perhaps on both sides with a box divider  for vertical splits. Anyone done this?


I've used the side entrances, Kate, for vertical splits, and also to let drones escape from above the queen excluder after moving the queen down to the bottom box.  I've not used it with a box divider to house two nucleus colonies in the same box - but that's a good idea.

I was a bit worried that the entrance might be too large for the colony to defend the honey boxes, and have reduced some with foam.  I think I'll use some of the ventilation plugs next year as entrance reducers, with some of the plastic rods cut out to create a smaller entrance.

Kitta

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## Poly Hive

FWIW years ago I trialled some brood boxes which took 2 nucs. Result was invariably one colony as one of the two queens would be more attractive to the bees. Not saying this is always going to happen but its the reason I use individual nuc boxes now. 

PH

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## prakel

> FWIW years ago I trialled some brood boxes which took 2 nucs. Result was invariably one colony as one of the two queens would be more attractive to the bees. *Not saying this is always going to happen*


That's right. 

But, I have put a lot of effort into using divided boxes, of all sizes, over several years (I've previously made lots of posts discussing these things, but I don't really bother much anymore). Anyway, this is stuff for a totally different thread but I will add a handful of photos, just for the hell of it  :Smile:  .

374.jpg

14956009_1140919536004928_5866019811253777440_n.jpg

089.jpg A particularly strong nuc being allowed to draw extra combs while it's smaller neighbour is waiting on a queen to mate. 

296.jpg

072.jpg Short on frames (both boxes)!

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## mbc

I have lots of split national broods with an entrance either way and I do still use them, given the funds I'd go over to poly nucs as they're more flexible but the split boxes owe me nothing and still do a good job.
I have also used the side entrance of an abelo brood for a vertical split and it worked fine, I'm a fan of the lyson design, as Kate says the hard plastic edges make them robust and easy to clean, my favourite so far though is the Abelo poly national Ashforth feeder, no painting or bee space issues and can be used out of the box, super bit of kit imho

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## mpenn

I like the Abelo hives and find the extra entrances very useful
I have used them for splits and also find the bees use the entrances in the suppers to bring honey in   
I use the white entrance blocks side on to reduce the gap in the boxes if I need to
Also had the other makes of national poly but Abelo hives have got it spot on as far as I'm concerned

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## Welsh lady bee

> I like the Abelo hives and find the extra entrances very useful
> I have used them for splits and also find the bees use the entrances in the suppers to bring honey in   
> I use the white entrance blocks side on to reduce the gap in the boxes if I need to
> Also had the other makes of national poly but Abelo hives have got it spot on as far as I'm concerned


I have been very pleased with my Abelo hive - had it for a year and the swarm I overwintered in it did fine (actually as did my WBC hives). However, this summer 
I am unable to remove the deep roof to get at the super in order to take off honey.  I can only think the roof is heavily propolised onto the super. Does anyone have an idea how I can get the roof off without damaging it?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> I am unable to remove the deep roof to get at the super in order to take off honey.  I can only think the roof is heavily propolised onto the super. Does anyone have an idea how I can get the roof off without damaging it?


It might be propolis - but dont you have a crown board between the super and the roof?  

Ive found that sometimes the white plugs can wedge the roof tight, and I then have to lever it off with my hands pressing up into the roof and down on the box handle (sorry - this is a mangled sentence!).  I dont think you need to worry about damaging the roof. 

Kitta

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## mbc

> I have been very pleased with my Abelo hive - had it for a year and the swarm I overwintered in it did fine (actually as did my WBC hives). However, this summer 
> I am unable to remove the deep roof to get at the super in order to take off honey.  I can only think the roof is heavily propolised onto the super. Does anyone have an idea how I can get the roof off without damaging it?


My guess is wild comb, anything without ample space this summer has built comb and packed it with honey wherever they can jam it in. If so the way to get it off is brute force, it may need another pair of hands to hold the box underneath if the whole lot starts lifting. Be prepared to deal with lots of sticky mess, a foodsafe bucket with a lid and a goose wing would be in my armoury.

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## fatshark

I suspect you've left the 'ventilation covers' off the crownboard so that the bees have access to the roof space.
Try gently sliding a hive tool between the roof and the super and prising it slightly. Try on a hot day when the propolis is warm. Perhaps even better try with something wider than a hive tool so the pressure is spread over a wider area. Repeat on as many sides of the roof as you can access.

In my experience the roofs are a bit fragile ... I've had a couple blow off and get damaged. Deep they may be, but once they take flight they are light and travel a long way ... and land with a crash  :Frown:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... 
> 
> Ive found that sometimes the white plugs can wedge the roof tight ...


Im quoting myself - but I realised I wasnt clear: I meant the side plugs, not the plugs on the crown board.  The side ones sometimes stick out a bit too far, and the roof becomes stuck on them when tightening the roof with a strap.

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## lindsay s

It might be easier to make contact with Ailens than to get a reply on this forum but I can always live in Hope!
 My hives are Smiths and it’s the only type I have ever worked with. But after our often long cool and wet winters some of them can get quite damp and mouldy on the insides. So I have been thinking about trying out poly hives for a wee while now because my bees do well in the poly nucs I’ve had for the last few years.
I was actually on the Abelo website looking for a new smoker when I came across their 12 frame National poly hives and decided to take the plunge. The hives are home so here’s my first impressions before the bees move in. This is the latest version of this hive.
My likes
The fact you can get them painted.
The room under the roof for a mini feeder to sit on the crownboard without the need for an eke or empty super.
The design of the mini feeder and the fact that it holds about the same as my round plastic feeders.
The rebates on the boxes and the top bee space.
The floor with a deep tight fitting under tray and a choice of entrance options. 
My dislikes 
The vent hole bungs.
The queen excluder sits flush on top of the frames.

This hive has been designed to stop water ingress and to keep the bees warm and dry which was the main selling point for me. But despite having top bee space l’m very disappointed that the wire queen excluder sits on top of the frames and is tricky to prise up. I have always been used to having bee space under the excluders in my Smith hives but now I’ll have to be a lot more careful. I’m going to work the hives with 11 frames and a dummy the cold way because old habits die hard. Also I’ve fitted a strip of wood along the frame runners to stop my short lugged frames from moving about and crushing the bees on the side bars. I’m really looking forward to trying out this hive so I will keep you posted.
PS I have just ordered another one. :Smile: 

https://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/nationa...nal-poly-hive/

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## Adam

All credit to Abelo for 'continuous improvement' of their hives. However I think I will hang on a little more before taking the Abelo plunge - I have reverted to cedar for now. Let us know what you think of them when you can. Last year I bought three Abelo Mini Plus hives after getting fed up with absconding mini-nucs. I have just received two more which is all I was allowed to order.

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## fatshark

Of course ... their continuous improvement means that last (or is it last but one?) iteration of their design is not compatible  :Wink:  My Abelo hives don't have the rebate (and won't because the old Paradise/Modern Beekeeping design had a lip or skirt and I hated it so much I vowed to only buy 'flat' hives from now on) and I'm not aware of problems with water ingress. They do generate a lot of condensation, so I'll be interested to hear how Lindsay gets on with them 'up North'.

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## lindsay s

> They do generate a lot of condensation, so I'll be interested to hear how Lindsay gets on with them 'up North'.


I don’t find condensation a problem with my poly Everynucs. In my Smith hives I leave mesh over the holes in the crownboards and find the under sides of roofs are often soaking wet by the springtime. (No insulation in between) They are on solid floors by the way. Contrary to most opinions my bees don’t seal up the mesh. 
First question. I thought any condensation might have been dissipated by the the open mesh floor or does it lie on the under side of the crownboard. 
Second question. Would it be worth leaving the main central hole in the crown board uncovered and opening up a couple of the vent holes in the Abelo roof. The OMF floor has a tight fitting under tray but there’ll be some draught from the entrance. Our winters are long and damp but I would rather not create a wind tunnel if it’s not necessary.

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## fatshark

I don't think any of the condensation I see is a *problem*. 

In Everynucs I see some on the underside of the flimsy clear crownboard they provide. In the Abelo's I've got it accumulates behind the frame runner, in the rebate for the lugs. You can just about see the reflection of the meniscus in this rather poor photograph.

191015-006.jpg 

I think this has been discussed before here and it was pointed out to me (by Kitta - Mellifera Crofter - I think) that this was because the runners are molded and extend to the end walls, there's no gap for the water to run away as there is in hives with separate runners.

My boxes spend most of the winter with OMF open and a block of Kingspan on top of the crownboard (even the Abelo poly's ... the Kingspan is actually present all year). I close up as many holes in their perforated crownboard as I can, and the bees usually seal up the rest. My overwintering success rate is perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned - the only losses this winter were failed queens.

The only hives I saw any mould in this winter were weak colonies. 

As I said at the beginning, I don't consider the condensation an issue ... sorry if mentioning it caused concerns. 

Two final thoughts/observations ...

1. I'm pretty certain that the condensation is worse in the hives I have inside a bee shed (this doesn't apply to nucs as these are all outside usually). This may be because they are less well ventilated. They have OMF's but there's less air circulation in the shed. The entrance is only 1" in diameter. 

2. I may have mixed up the spelling of mould and mold ... I usually do  :Wink: 

Cheers.

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## lindsay s

Thanks for the advice Fatshark.
As Ive said before Ive often found dampness / moisture between the frame runners and the sides of my Smith hives as well as dozens of Slaters. The only condensation l occasionally find in the Everynucs is just above the feeders but not over frames unless Im having a peep on a cold day and the crownboards soon cloud over. The new Abelo crownboards only have one large central hole and a smaller feeder hole which both have plugs. After many years of my bees just having draughty wooden crownboards and not having winter losses I think Ill give the Kingspan a miss in my new poly hives this year. 
My bees have now been in the Abelos for just over a week and as they were low on stores I gave them a feed. Im hoping to inspect them in the next few days. They were in over wintered nucs which had been united with colonies that I had made queenless.
You might think I worry too much about my bees but I had no qualms in dispatching two older queens last week. One was very swarmy  and the other had bad tempered bees so it was time for them to go. The weather looks like improving at last but none of my hives have their first super yet!

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## Adam

> I don’t find condensation a problem with my poly Everynucs. In my Smith hives I leave mesh over the holes in the crownboards and find the under sides of roofs are often soaking wet by the springtime. (No insulation in between) They are on solid floors by the way. Contrary to most opinions my bees don’t seal up the mesh. 
> First question. I thought any condensation might have been dissipated by the the open mesh floor or does it lie on the under side of the crownboard. 
> Second question. Would it be worth leaving the main central hole in the crown board uncovered and opening up a couple of the vent holes in the Abelo roof. The OMF floor has a tight fitting under tray but there’ll be some draught from the entrance. Our winters are long and damp but I would rather not create a wind tunnel if it’s not necessary.


Condensation occurs where damp air meets cold, (on the inside of a single glazed window in winter for example) so I would be inclined to seal up and insulate the top of the hive so there are no cold spots and leave the OMF open. If it's windy, a super under the brood box would act as a baffle and stop the wind from whistling around the inside of the hive.

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## immabee

Hi,

I have just painted my new Maisemore poly hive and for what it's worth I thought I'd share what I learnt about paint. 

I used GoodHome smooth masonry paint because the sample pots are 300ml so I optimistically thought "marvellous".  As a plus the colours are lovely but as a negative the coverage is not great. I have used 300ml fully to the last drop for floor, one brood box and two supers, and over half a pot of second colour for just the roof. 

If and when my Swienty hive becomes empty I'll paint that (took it on with bees in unpainted) but will use Sandtex for comparison. Shame the colours aren't as nice! 

Anyway, hello guys, this is my first post 

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

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## Adam

Hi immabee,
I have a tin of green masonry paint I use which seems to be OK with the idea that it would blend in and not be too noticeable although in winter I really need a dark brown colour. I had tried some 'arty' colours before but they looked rubbish! I have mini-nucs which have been painted with random matt emulsion and that seems to stay on well enough.
Welcome to the forum.

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## immabee

Hi Adam,

I've seen some green poly hives looking very nice. 
This is the colour scheme I went with:
I'd quite like my next one to have a differently coloured roof, just for variety! 

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

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