# General beekeeping > Starting out >  frames

## hypostatic

Hi all, 

Just got 2 smith hives which has 2 brood boxes and 4 supers. However i need frames for 1 of the brood boxes and some more frames for the supers.

Wheres the best place to get them and does anyone on here have any spare i can have or purchase?

Can contact me on here or 01501-744817

Dave

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## Neils

My preference currently is paynes, but I'm not sure whether they do Smith frames.

I'd be wary of buying used frames as they can be excellent vectors for introducing disease into your hives, for the sake of a few pounds I think you're much better off buying new.

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## Ruary

> My preference currently is paynes, but I'm not sure whether they do Smith frames.
> 
> .


Smith frames have the same dimensions as British Standard for National hives with the exception that the lugs are shorter.
It is easy to trim National frames to length with a pair of secateurs.

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## Neils

I did consider suggesting that, but as I've never used smiths I thought I'd keep it simple  :Smile:

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## hypostatic

thats great guys, you mentioned paynes, is there a web link i can have?

Thanks again

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## hypostatic

its ok guys i got it

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## Rosie

I always wait for Thorne's sale and buy their seconds.

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## Neils

Never again for me with seconds frames. If you don't value your time they're ok, but the quality is shocking. You can add a chisel and a dremel/sander of some description to the list of tools needed in the frame assembly guide.

A significant number if the last batch either had no side bar grooves or they were in the wrong side (Hoffman frames)

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## Black Comb

My Thornes sale ones were ok last year.
I've heard MM aren't so good, but have no personal experience.

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## Neils

MM Is Maisemore?

Generally between the two I tend to think that Maisemore make better frames and thornes make better hive parts.  Payne's don't appear to make 14x12 in cedar so I've only tried their frames which were a dream compared to the seconds to assemble.  

It might just be that I got a batch of what should have been used as firewood packaged as seconds from thornes, but I'm unimpressed with any of their seconds stuff, the brood boxes don't fit together properly either and I had to chisel and sand down the inside top on a few at one end in order for the frames to fit.

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## Black Comb

Yes MM I mean Maisemore
Thornes frames were OK but their seconds l/s broods were rough.
Bought KBS foundation for the first time this year. Much better than Thornes.

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## Neils

I've heard lots of good things about KBS foundation but never managed to actually try it for myself.

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## Rosie

> It might just be that I got a batch of what should have been used as firewood packaged as seconds from thornes, but I'm unimpressed with any of their seconds stuff, the brood boxes don't fit together properly either and I had to chisel and sand down the inside top on a few at one end in order for the frames to fit.


I have bought dozens of Thornes brood box seconds and many hundreds of their frame seconds.  I do remember a tight brood box but it was not so bad that it needed to be modified and I have only had one batch of poor frames but even they were good enough to use.

If we are going to talk about boxes as well has anyone tried this chap:

http://celtic-woodsmith.com

He now lives near me and his stuff seems to be of excellent quality although I have not used any myself yet.  He says he uses Canadian cedar which is more durable than British grown wood.

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## Jon

> I have bought dozens of Thornes brood box seconds and many hundreds of their frame seconds.


Same here. Almost all my equipment is Thorne seconds and I have not had a problem with it.
I bought 50 frames for £28 from their stall at the UBKA conference and I was able to assemble 49 perfectly decent frames from that.
They must send all the rubbish down to Bristol.

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## Neils

I bought a lot of stuff that year and it might just have been a particularly bad batch and its lasted me a long time rather than being one batch of "OMG!", but I have brood boxes where frames fit in one end but not the other.  I still think their non seconds hives are generally good, but I'm not getting ripped off buying, especially, reject frames again.

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## GRIZZLY

I bought 500 2nds frames from thornes plus 10 seconds supers this year.  280 of the frames weren't even fit for firewood and 4 of the supers were of such poor materials  that they were unuseable.  I COMPLAINED to JILL SMITH at Thornes who told me that I was the second person that day to make such a  complaint. Jill asked me how many frames and hive parts were affected and then said she would get them replaced - which she did immediately.  I thought Thornes treated me very fairly and dealt fully with my complaint.  I would however be wary about purchasing 2nds in the future, but as they say -  you only get what you pay for.

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