# General beekeeping > Alternative beekeeping >  Rose Hives

## SteveW316

Hi Everyone,

So, after 3 years or so, what is the verdict on Rose Hives?  Has anyone tried or are using them? 

Would anyone be willing to allow me to visit to see / talk first hand?

Thanks

Steve

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## Calum

Hi

Here in Germany and more so in Russia hives tend to be a standard size by area: on the continent 'RoseHives'= keeping bees on one size of magazine, is the standard practice .
Here in S Germany 80% use Zander. This has an advantage that everyones kit is compatable (people buying my colonies can slot them right into their boxes), the suppliers carry only two standard sizes of kit (making everything cheaper due to better bulk prices - my local suppleir just ordered 20000 frames) frames, foundation, are dirt cheap - these are the running costs after purchase. (I pay 1,20 for a frame with foundation)

So what is the point in supers? Half sized Frames - unless you want to harvest speciality honey on a weekly basis-who has time for that?

BR
Calum

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## Mellifera Crofter

I've read the book, but have no experience of the hives themselves.  I decided against the Rose hive because, as far as I know, the frames aren't that easily available apart from Thornes.

Calum's point of compatibility with neighbours (or even your own hives, if you have other kinds) is a good one.  You will be able to fit a National super into your Rose hive and let the bees draw out comb below it, but a National brood frame will be too big.  It's ok the other way round.

Then there's the plywood sides that I don't like.  See Nicky's thread called 'Mould'.
Kitta

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## SteveW316

Thanks everyone, appreciated.

Kitta, I'll check the thread . Thanks

Steve

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## Neils

I think the principle is fine, but I don't think it requires yet another hive type/frame size to achieve and I think if I were going to go down a one size route I'd either go all Deep National or all Shallow National boxes, any bigger as a solo beekeeper would be too heavy for me I think.

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## GRIZZLY

I and a fellow member of our ass'n are making some "Rose" hive boxes at the moment. Same construction as a standard national -  but  without the fancy joints -  Just screwed together and made from western red cedar. These will weigh about half the weight of the boxes made by Thornes from red deal and plywood. We are doing this for evaluation purposes - the Rose system seems most plausible and it will be nice to run some hives without Q excluders. If we "tweak" the design slightly and make the cedar side walls about 1 1/2 mm less in thickness we should be able to get 12 frames ( 35mm wide) in the box. The frames are no problem - just cut down and re-slot standard DN4 side bars to suit.Same thing with the wax.

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## Calum

It doesn't get simpler than this does it?  except the floor - way to complicated. Two a wooden n-u with a varroa grille sandwiched inbetween is much easier...

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## brothermoo

Steve I have been on Rose hives ever since I started 2 summers ago. I completed my prelim course but didnt get bees for a year, in the interim period I looked at all the options and decided I wanted to make my own hives so went with OSB for simplicity,and the method described by tim rowe in his book seemed fairly sensible to me, although everything i learnt on my course could pretty much be done using OSB.  I make no claims to have lots of experience but one thing I have found is the ease of making splits with the OSB is great!

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## GRIZZLY

Well we've made up 10 r0se hive depth brood/super boxes, ready for this coming season to evaluate the "Rose" system. They're just shallow national brood boxes realy and if the rose system does'nt work for us they will make extra depth supers. Weight for weight these boxes are lighter than the rose hives manufactured by Thornes and, being made of western red cedar, will be more durable. Perhaps brothermoo will post his experiences on the forum.

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## brothermoo

If I have bees after this eternal winter I will happily share how this year goes on the rose hives.

Let's hope aslan is on the move  :Wink: 

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## Ely

I don't think it is the box that matters. I think the method can be applied to most hive types. If I were to do this method, I would use national poly deeps. If you sell nucs it would be less likely to cause problems and is also a much better material than ply. More expensive but will save money over the years by lasting longer and better yields.

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## brothermoo

Fair point Ely.. the weight of the poly would be perfect for the rose method if using nationals (wouldn't fancy it in cedar) probably would have been my choice if I wasn't so keen to make mine, and be the bin hoaker that I am, using second hand materials were possible  :Smile: 

But the methods are just something else in my arsenal, if I want to follow more traditional methods I am free to... We have to do what suits our own situations

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## Ely

I agree. I doubt anyone follows any book to the letter. It's nice to learn and implement what suits to make things easy

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## Bumble

How does the size of the Rose box compare with others, National, Langstroth and so on?

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## Pete L

I run quite a few in a similar manner, but just using standard national deeps,they are just over an inch deeper than the Rose box, i much prefer all same size frames, and am slowly doing away with shallow boxes altogether.

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## GRIZZLY

> I run quite a few in a similar manner, but just using standard national deeps,they are just over an inch deeper than the Rose box, i much prefer all same size frames, and am slowly doing away with shallow boxes altogether.


Have you ever tried lugging a full national brood box over wet muddy fields - full to the brim with honey?. You wouldnt change from shallows then in a hurry. You would end up with a seriously sore back in no time.I dont intend changeing from my national polyhives but I think the Rose system deserves a serious look which is the exercise I intend carrying out this summer. As I said before the boxes  (same construction as wooden national boxes in western red cedar but 1 1/2 inches shallower) will make good supers later on. Quite a few of our association members have read the Rose Hive book and seem quite taken with his system. I don't like the way his hives are constructed - the ones I checked over  from thornes were both heavy and made with very poor quality materials - full of huge knots and junk plywood. I have a workshop full of woodworking equipment so making 7 1/2  ( 190 mm) deep national brood bodies in cedarwood is no problem.

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## Pete L

> Have you ever tried lugging a full national brood box over wet muddy fields - full to the brim with honey?.You wouldnt change from shallows then in a hurry.
> 
>  I have a workshop full of woodworking equipment so making 7 1/2  ( 190 mm) deep national brood bodies in cedarwood is no problem.


Yes i have, many a time, and i don't really find them that heavy, (it is the empty ones i dislike carrying) so still prefer standard national deeps, the cedar boxes are lighter than the plywood rose model. Although i do also have five sons, two who work with me full time, and the machinery for lifting and getting across rough terrain when needed, although i tend to use a bit more common sense as to the location of the apiary sites these days.

Like yourself, we have workshops similar, plus sawmill, heavy log handling equipment and timber kilns, and usually produce in excess of 1000 cedar hives a year, and many thousands of frames. All that all of us need now though is a decent seasons weather.

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## Beefever

I’ve read the book about the Rose method and was very taken with it.  I am seriously thinking of using all national brood frames in my hives and if too heavy have thought of using dummy frames at each side.  Not using a queen excluder really appeals to me but can’t get over the fact I’d be extracting honey from frames that have contained brood.  D’know why, it just doesn’t seem right!

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## brothermoo

All honey before abbe Collins invented it around 1865ish was from comb that had reared brood and been cleaned for honey stores. Wild honey hunters still gather it and you pay extortionate amounts for it. 
I still want to eat honey even though i know it as been shared and regurgitated by lots of bees before storage.
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## Jon

And the honey from the warre system is stored in comb which previously had brood reared in it as the normal warre system involves adding supers (subs?) underneath.

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## Bumble

> but cant get over the fact Id be extracting honey from frames that have contained brood.  Dknow why, it just doesnt seem right!


I've extracted from ex brood combs, it doesn't taste any different and if you regularly replace brood combs the wax is probably newer than in shallow frames that have been used year after year.

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## madasafish

> I've extracted from ex brood combs, it doesn't taste any different and if you regularly replace brood combs the wax is probably newer than in shallow frames that have been used year after year.


+1

TBH hives use any comb..

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## wee willy

I have once only spun honey from comb previously containing brood! Quite frankly it was rubbish !
I didn't consider it worth feeding back to the bees!
My experience I must stress!! Could have been bad luck .
I take the point that super comb is subject to repeated use but as brood is never raised in there (no cocoon debris) the cell remain in good uncontaminated condition .
WW


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## The Drone Ranger

I had a super with lots of pollen in it last year and spun it out
Being rape it went solid before I strained it
There wasn't loads but I am using it on the two little colonies I have
Just wamed up then made into a patty
Because there is everything they might need in there I hope it will be better than fondant for them

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## Ely

I read somewhere that bees remove the cocoon and clean the cells before storing honey. Is this correct?

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## chris

I'm not sure that they remove the cocoon, but they certainly give the cell a thorough clean out.Honey is antibacterian and antiinflammatary. It can be used on cuts whilst they heal. Can't imagine it being contaminated. And even if the bees didn't clean all the bits out of the cells, they are easily filtered out.I've never experienced it tasting *rubbish*. Quite the opposite, so I think WW was just unlucky.
If the objection is psychological, how do people deal with the idea of earthworms in their minced steaks?Or...

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## Jon

> If the objection is psychological, how do people deal with the idea of earthworms in their minced steaks?Or...


Some of us have more sense than to either either of those.

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## gavin

> I read somewhere that bees remove the cocoon and clean the cells before storing honey. Is this correct?


The brown crumbs you see on a floor insert are the remnants of the cocoon I believe.  There was a discussion on the topic of ever-thickening brood comb on the Irish list some years ago, and dear old Dave Cushman was prompted to write this topic in his web site along with this picture from Penn State University:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/smalboldcomb.html



The bees seem to keep paring down the sides of the comb but are much less driven to treat the base of the cells in the same way.  You end up with that laminated effect at the bottom of the cell but much less build-up on the sides.  

There was also a picture posted somewhere at around that time of cut old brood cells that had been used to store honey.  You could see the dark wisps leaching out into the honey.  The dark stuff would be the gunk that gets incorporated into the walls of old comb - all the stuff from dirty footprints and leaky bums inside the cell.  It converted me to not using brood comb for honey production.

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## Ely

Thanks. Many people don't use excluders, i'm thinking about trying this season without them myself. If you don't extract from brood frames, would you end up having to replace super frames more often as the queen lays in them?

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## gavin

Those who go without queen excluders - like Murray, the local bee farmer at least in the later part of the season - tend to use a one size fits all approach.  Brood boxes as supers.  That simplifies the shuffling back down into one box.

I've occasionally used a 'brood and a half' and ended up with bees in places I'd rather they weren't.

If you let them have a free run into super frames as well as the usual deeper brood frames then the super frames would have the same sort of life as the brood box frames I'd have thought.

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## Dark Bee

> ..................................................  ..................................................  ................................There was also a picture posted somewhere at around that time of cut old brood cells that had been used to store honey.  You could see the dark wisps leaching out into the honey.  The dark stuff would be the gunk that gets incorporated into the walls of old comb - all the stuff from dirty footprints and leaky bums inside the cell.  It converted me to not using brood comb for honey production.



Some years ago having access to a microscope and always having had an "unease" about honey for human consumption that was stored in brood cells. I decided to have a look at some stored thus, suffice it to say that what I saw was even more revolting than what is described above. Brood combs are for brood and supers are for honey and between the two there should be a queen excluder.

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## mbc

I think if we started being overly picky about not eating insect poo we'd starve, as almost everything gets pooed on or in, includung the water we use to wash things.  Certainly anyone sensitive to eating honey from comb which has previously had brood in is excluding themselves to the vast majority of honey available.

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## Ely

I'm just wondering if it is a pain in the arse to work without excluder that's all.

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## Dark Bee

I believe it is for the individual to decide what methods he or she wishes to use and that what works for one person may be unsatisfactory for another or that which works in one area may give very different results elsewhere. However this current fashion for no excluders, Warre hives, Tbh's, Rose hives and suchlike is in my view a regressive step and not progressive.
 With all due respect to those who believe otherwise; examining under a microscope a well used brood cell now full of honey is not a very appetising experience :EEK!:

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## wee willy

> I'm not sure that they remove the cocoon, but they certainly give the cell a thorough clean out.Honey is antibacterian and antiinflammatary. It can be used on cuts whilst they heal. Can't imagine it being contaminated. And even if the bees didn't clean all the bits out of the cells, they are easily filtered out.I've never experienced it tasting *rubbish*. Quite the opposite, so I think WW was just unlucky.
> If the objection is psychological, how do people deal with the idea of earthworms in their minced steaks?Or...


Or white worms in the flesh of codfish?
WW


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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=wee willy;16903]Or white worms in the flesh of codfish?
WW


WW, do you know if it is only cod caught close inshore that carry a worm burden and not those netted deep sea ? A Hull trawlerman once told me this was the case.

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## wee willy

No I didn't!
I've fished the North Sea and the Irish Sea (perking) North Sea  off shore Irish Sea inshore for codling but hadn't noticed.
North Sea was summer fishing Irish Sea winter , to do with water temps and cod runs !
WW 


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## Beefever

I’ve always seen bees passing through a queen excluder as having a real struggle and thought if they could do without then things would be easier.  I could try an entrance above the queen excluder, I suppose, to see if that would satisfy my concerns. Or what about a barrier.  I believe some use a plastic sheet slightly smaller than box size.  Workers pass around the sides but the queen doesn't bother?

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## Dark Bee

I have seen someone leave a gap of approximately 1/2" at the front of a hive, he used a piece of ply and the frames were running warm way and it worked! I would be very reluctant to use something impervious such as plastic - there would be inevitable condensation /dampness, both upstairs and downstairs :Smile: . Unless I am much mistaken ther is information on "solid" excluders in Dave Cushmans site.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, I found it.  It's here.
Kitta

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## Beefever

Thanks for the link.  
As I’m making some crown boards and clearer boards at the moment I might try a couple of queen excluders with drilled holes round the edge, just to see.   I don’t know why Dave Cushman says that this type of queen excluder will not works if there is drone foundation in the supers?  Surely, if the queen wants to lay in the supers she will pass through the board no matter what size cells are there to greet her.

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## Dark Bee

It used to be fashionable to keep drone numbers at a minimum, they were trapped and destroyed, prevented from re-entering the hive with a piece of Qx and drone comb ruthlessly removed. This resulted in hives desperate for drones and a Q ready to do her utmost to get anywhere to lay drone eggs. In these more enlightened times of bee breeding and IPM it is usual to have perhaps two sheets of drone brood in the brood box and I would suspect that this would be sufficient to keep her majesty at home!

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## The Drone Ranger

> I think if we started being overly picky about not eating insect poo we'd starve, as almost everything gets pooed on or in, includung the water we use to wash things.  Certainly anyone sensitive to eating honey from comb which has previously had brood in is excluding themselves to the vast majority of honey available.


Slightly off topic but David Cramp writing in this month BeeCraft says the honeydew collected by bees from an insect living on one of their many poisonous plants can produce toxins in honey that can cause brain damage and kill 
New Zealand beekeeping scary stuff or what ?  
That's the kind of insect poo I don't want to eat  :Smile:

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## brothermoo

So that's what's in Manuka!!! Mind altering substances to make us think it is good for us  :Big Grin: 

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## mbc

Tutuche'

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## The Drone Ranger

> So that's what's in Manuka!!! Mind altering substances to make us think it is good for us 
> 
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I've never tasted it but its apparently horrible so it's fortunate for the producers they can slap it on open sores etc.

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## madasafish

> I've never tasted it but its apparently horrible so it's fortunate for the producers they can slap it on open sores etc.


It's not horrible.

It is *REVOLTING.*

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## Dark Bee

In a recent edition ot the Irish beekeepers magazine there was an interesting item on manuka honey by Phillip McCabe - P.R.O. of FIBKA. He related how New Zealand beekeepers told of feeding this honey to pigs as there was no possibility of selling it! Then the marketing people had it's medicinal qualities identified and the rest is history!

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## The Drone Ranger

Honey roast ham production went down afterwards I suppose

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## Dark Bee

> Honey roast ham production went down afterwards I suppose



Aye it did, but sales of NZ lamb increased several fold immediately afterwards!

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## Ely

Who knows, maybe ivy honey has benefits we could exploit

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## Neils

I have been trying for a while now.  I claim my honey has a high IQ (ivy quotient), the higher the IQ the better it obviously is for you.

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## Ely

Hehe. Sell it as sore throat medicine

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## SteveW316

So, Is anyone using them near Clackmannanshire, and can I visit?

Steve

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## The Drone Ranger

here's a little  video

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## fatshark

Cool roof on the house …

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