# General beekeeping > Starting out >  Can someone tell me ....

## Bridget

if you add a super with new foundation is this OK.   I've seen something about drawn foundation should be used but as new beekeepers we dont have any. Also, with these good conditions, though the wind was cold this afternoon, should I be inspecting now to see if I should be adding a super.  We've been told so often not to bother the bees until April, in this part of the world, but they are very busy and I am worried they will need more space soon. What is the guideline for adding a super?  How many frames of brood should there be.

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## Jon

The weather will be freezing again in a couple of days.
-4 predicted
http://www.forecast.co.uk/inverness.html

You need to look in the box to estimate colony strength.
The rule of thumb is to add a super when there are 7 or 8 frames of brood.
They will draw out foundation when the weather is good and there is nectar coming in.
In bad weather they are likely to ignore it.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...The rule of thumb is to add a super when there are 7 or 8 frames of brood. ...


I'll remember that, Jon.  I went to my 'out apiary' in a friend's garden in Aberdeen on Sunday when it was hot and sunny.  I did not count the frames with brood, but I thought they were running out of space, and added a super.  Now, with the weather changing again, I'm worried that I've made a mistake - that they'll struggle to keep the brood warm.  For future reference, rather than having created an empty space above their heads by adding a super, should I rather have created space for them by just exchanging a few of the frames filled with honey with new ones?
Kitta

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## Jon

> For future reference, rather than having created an empty space above their heads by adding a super, should I rather have created space for them by just exchanging a few of the frames filled with honey with new ones?
> Kitta


That's what I try and do before thinking about supering. I checked some of mine on monday and they were quite strong, one with 7 frames of brood and one with 5. I was tempted to super them but I took out 3 frames of stores from one and two from the other and replaced them with drawn comb. They will need supers within a couple of weeks but the forecast is for pretty cold weather next week so I decided to wait.
I have seen some people suggest that you can put an empty super on above the crown board with the feed hole open which sounds like a sensible compromise as it gives the bees somewhere to store any excess nectar coming in.
I have often put a super on only for it to be completely ignored for about 3 weeks which suggests that it was on too early.
If the weather is hot I would always err on the side of caution and put the super on as cramping them is likely to induce early swarming.
Some of the posters on the English bee forums have reported swarms already.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Jon - also for the tip about using the crown board.
Kitta

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## Bumble

> I have seen some people suggest that you can put an empty super on above the crown board with the feed hole open which sounds like a sensible compromise as it gives the bees somewhere to store any excess nectar coming in.


It's a good idea, especially if the temperatures are variable and the hive is a larger one.

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## Easy beesy

You could try a couple of sheets of newspaper instead of a crownboard between brood and super - that way they can chew through as much or as little as they need. 
Eb

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## Mellifera Crofter

That's good to know, Eb - for the reason you've mentioned and also if one doesn't have an extra crown board with a feeding hole handy.  Thanks.
K

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## Bridget

Thanks Jon for the excellent weather app. Downloaded it straight onto my iPad and it seems pretty accurate.  
Had a look yesterday at the bees.  Bees over every frame, 7 frames of brood, three of stores and one (the furthest away from the entrance) was being worked on.  Bees bringing in all kinds of pollen- yellow mostly but also brown, white and blue.  Not sure what sort of flower or tree that is from.  A neighbour said bees were working her winter flowering heather.  Though the sun was out the wind was quite cool and when I propped a frame against the hive, in the shade, all the bees when into a ball so I quickly moved it into the sun.  
Saw the queen, she was on the 2nd to the front frame (cold way).  So we put on a super but wish I had read the above posts first as I think we may have been better for the moment with any empty super just for space at present.  
How does a beginner work out approx how many bees there are in the hive.  we started with 5 frames and about 12,000 I think.  This looks the busiest we've seen it.  Can one gauge by how many frames are covered?
We had given fondant in early Jan and it was nearly finished early March so gave them a bit more and it was all gone, in 3 1/2 weeks.  
Btw - I know some of this won't be of interest to the old hands here, but as a newbie I avidly read EVERYTHING that's written here, even when I haven't a clue what it's about, so I hope there are other newbies who might be interested.  :0)

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## Jon

A 460mm square piece of correx makes a fine crown board or even a floor if you are stuck.

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## gavin

> Btw - I know some of this won't be of interest to the old hands here, but as a newbie I avidly read EVERYTHING that's written here, even when I haven't a clue what it's about, so I hope there are other newbies who might be interested.  :0)


Hi Bridget

That makes it all worthwhile!

Brown pollen?  Could be bird cherry or another Prunus.  The bird cherry here is in full flower and the plums are out too - may be the source of the brown pollen my bees are bringing in.

Blue?  Possibly Scilla sibirica, spring squill.

White?  Do you have any butterbur in your area?  It might still be in flower.  There may be other possibilities.

Your brood box sounds quite busy.  Seven full frames of sealed brood will make about 14 frames of bees, so I think that you did the right thing.  OK, the coming cold weather might delay them using the new frames, but they will be short of space very soon.

G.

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## Jon

Gavin is probably right re. the blue pollen as the only other blue one I see is Rosebay Willowherb and that is in flower during July and August. The shoots are barely through the ground at the moment.

The good thing about a bee forum is that everyone brings a different point of view to the table and as long as people don't fall out over pesticides or the best race of bee to keep it is of great benefit to everyone. I pick up tips all the time. The other forum I like is Bee-L. It is quite US centric but focuses on the science of beekeeping as opposed to the normal forum chatter.

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## Bumble

> How does a beginner work out approx how many bees there are in the hive.


For a National hive, this page on Dave Cushman's site might help http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beesest.html

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## Bridget

G.


> Brown pollen?  Could be bird cherry or another Prunus.  The bird cherry here is in full flower and the plums are out too - may be the source of the brown pollen my bees are bringing in.
> 
> Blue?  Possibly Scilla sibirica, spring squill.
> 
> White?  Do you have any butterbur in your area?  It might still be in flower.  There may be other possibilities.
> 
> Your brood box sounds quite busy.  Seven full frames of sealed brood will make about 14 frames of bees, so I think that you did the right thing.  OK, the coming cold weather might delay them using the new frames, but they will be short of space very soon.
> 
> G.


Thanks, very useful.  These bees are teaching me lots of things including a sudden interest in trees and plants.  I don't have any Scilla but I'm sure neighbours do. Def not seen any butterburr but there is a cherry tree in a sheltered spot in full flower about 1/2 a mile away and it was full of both bumble and honeybees.  We have our own two very big cherry trees but they are not in blossom yet.

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## Bridget

> I was tempted to super them but I took out 3 frames of stores from one and two from the other and replaced them with drawn comb.


 Jon when you take out the frames of stores how much are you leaving them with and why does this not leave them short?  Or do they just work even harder to replenish?  How does this help to give them more space?  Also what happens to the stores you took out?  Do you save them somehow to give to another colony that's short?

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## Jon

> why does this not leave them short?


bees often have far more stores than they need, and in addition beekeepers often overfeed in the spring which can leave the queen short of space to lay.
You have to make a judgement call based on the size of the colony, the weather forecast for the next few weeks and the amount of stores left in the colony.
At this time of year a couple of frames of stores is sufficient, imho. If you have a brood box with 6 or 7 frames of sealed stores it is just restricting the laying space of the queen.
I save any stores removed for feeding back later or for making up nucs. Most of the stuff removed is sugar syrup fed in the autumn rather than honey.

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## Bridget

So if you took out say two frames would you put the new frames exactly where you took the old frames out or would you move everything up two notches and put them on the end?

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## Bridget

Thinking about what I just wrote I suppose that if you were giving the queen more space for more brood you would put them on either side of the existing brood filled frames

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I save any stores removed for feeding back later or for making up nucs.


What is the best, or your preferred, way of saving frames of honey, Jon?  Just save them in an empty box, wrap them up in cling film, or extract them to feed back later?

Kitta

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## Jon

I just set the frames in a spare nuc and make sure it is closed up. The stores have to be sealed as open stores will absorb water and start to ferment. A sealed frame weighs about 5lbs




> if you were giving the queen more space for more brood you would put them on either side of the existing brood filled frames


That's the way I do it but bear in mind that you don't want to remove stores if the bees are likely to need them in a period of bad weather.
I remember helping someone with a double brood box of bees. For some reason he was still feeding in May. The top box had 11 frames of stores capped and sealed and the bottom one was mostly stores as well. It also had a super on which was capped and sealed and he then asked me how you could avoid getting syrup in the honey!! All you can do with frames like this is use them for feeding bees as there is likely more sugar than honey in them.
I also know people who feed up to the day that the supers go on. A week later the super is half full (of syrup) as the bees take the opportunity to enlarge the brood nest and move all the syrup stores up above.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Jon - also for the warnings about the effects of over-feeding.
Kitta

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