# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Bee breeding/improvement groups

## drumgerry

I'm considering the possibility of trying to set up one of these (with native bees being the breeding focus) either under the auspices of BIBBA or not and either under the auspices of my local association or not.

It would be really helpful if any of you who already run or participate in one of these groups in your own locality could describe the format under which the group operates.  The sort of thing I'm interested in is how you recruit members, what the members contribute and anything else you can think of 

Where I live there are very few beekeepers and I'm pretty sure I could ensure to a large extent that the group's queens mate with native drones.  Ideally I'd like to find an upland mating apiary to base the group's activities but my own apiaries would suffice in the early stages of the group's life.

I haven't even tested the waters to see what the level of interest might be but my attitude is that even if I can't form a group I can do this on my own to a lesser extent.

So any help/advice you can give would be a great help.

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## Jon

It is definitely a good idea to set up a group as you may then be working with potentially over 100 colonies as opposed to a couple of dozen.
The group needs at least one very enthusiastic person to drive it on - in this case you have elected yourself.
You need a site where the cell raiser/drone colonies are located and another to set out the apideas. This could be the same place but in our group the sites are about 300 metres apart.
For the apideas you need shade and we don't have that at the cell raiser/drone site.
A minimum of about 10 drone colonies is necessary.
We have a site given to us by the National Trust and we also have a key to their offices if it is raining.

In our group, everyone chips in a tenner to cover costs. I have about 35 people on the list and have got the tenner from more than half of them at this stage. Could not possible make any comments about the Scots at this point!
People buy and look after their own apideas.
Last year I made the mistake of volunteering to look after apideas and I ended up looking after 60 which at 10 minutes each is 10 hours work per week.
I learned a lot from it but I don't have this much time free.

I got an e-mail address from everyone and set up a separate gmail account to keep all the correspondence together.
I send out message re. work to be done, dates grafted cells are ready and when apideas need to be filled.

We meet once a week, usually Monday, where I try and demonstrate something related to queen rearing.
This week it was how to determine if a colony is queenless. (see blog)
I have also demonstrated how to set up a queenright cell raiser colony, how to graft, how to fill apideas, how to assemble apideas, putting rollers on cells due to hatch, etc.
If it is raining you can demonstrate stuff like morphometry or dust off some of the powerpoint presentations on queen rearing and bee genetics.
Later on we will be doing marking and clipping queens, how to get a queen out of an apidea into an introduction cage, methods of requeening etc.

In our case recruitment is by word of mouth and we have members from Belfast BKA and two neighbouring ones. We also have a couple of members from the INIB which is a rival organization to the UBKA which is the one I am a member of. If you are allowed to say that bees don't read the books you can also say that bees do not get involved in internecine struggles!

Re Bibba, there is good advice on the website and you could probably arrange a visit from Terry Clare or Roger Patterson who are permanently on tour.
We have several Bibba members in our group including one who is an executive committee member.

Problems
You have to push to get people to participate and take responsibility.
There will always be a few who are just looking something for nothing although I have to say in our case I am very happy with how people are contributing.
We have several beginners and if they don't have the skills yet to do bee stuff they can strim around the apiary or check fondant levels in apideas and other tasks like that.
You need to be wary of some of the older guys, the 40 year beekeepers, as they are invariably unteachable as they think they know everything and could possibly be disruptive. Some of them also have an agenda against bee breeding as they have never done it and feel threatened. These are the guys who have never practiced swarm control either and they will stand at the back and snipe.
Luckily in our case they largely stayed away.
I would definitely encourage the beginners. We even have a top bar beekeeper in the group.

Thanks for starting the thread Gerry as I am interested in how people like Steve/Rosie and Gavin are set up and I know several others are interested in starting a group of their own. Doris has a group on Orkney. Jimbo has a good thang goin' in Rosneath.

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## drumgerry

Thanks for a great reply Jon.  Just the sort of info I need.

It sounds like you have quite a set up there.  I can foresee my effort being maybe a little more modest in the first couple of years.  But one thing about me is I'm keen and a reasonably quick learner.  And we have some great isolated territory in the upland/inland areas of Moray.

Right now my thinking is that I want access to top quality native queens and the best way to go about that in the long term will be to breed my own.  And the best way to do that is, as you say, as part of a group.  I'm hoping there's more like me in Moray with a similar outlook.  

I'm thinking of initially approaching the Forestry Commission or Crown Estate to see if they can help with a possible site or sites.  If that doesn't work I'll move on to the big estates.

And if anyone else could chip in with their setups that'd be great as well!

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## Jon

If you set the thing up people will bite your hand off to get involved.
There is a real interest in bee breeding and queen rearing but people have nowhere to go and don't know where to start.
I started the group last year and have since realised there is only one other group in NI.
Apart from that there are just a handful of individuals queenrearing on their own, maybe half a dozen beekeepers.

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## drumgerry

It's a bit like that here Jon.  I can think of maybe 5 or so beekeepers rearing their own queens.   Hope you're right about the interest levels I can expect!

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## Jon

Encourage the beginners.
A typical comment I get is something like' I would love to get involved but I don't know enough, I only got bees last year.'
The most important thing is being interested, willing to learn and having an open mind.
These are the folk you want to get involved.

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## prakel

> I started the group last year and have since realised there is only one other group in NI.
> Apart from that there are just a handful of individuals queenrearing on their own, maybe half a dozen beekeepers.


Half a dozen individuals rearing their own queens in NI? Any idea how many beekeepers, total, there are in NI?

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## Jon

Bout 1000, best guess

The UBKA has 10 member associations, some with over 100 members
The INIB has a couple of hundred members as well.

Most people rear queens through an absence of swarm control and the colony then makes its own queen but I would not consider that proactive queen rearing.

When I started this I assumed lots of beekeepers were doing it but that is not the case.
I wonder how different Scotland is?

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## prakel

Interesting, I also pretty much just assumed that a much higher percentage are rearing their own queens. After all, queen rearing has got to be one of the most beneficial aspects of managing our own bees.

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## Neils

Great thread, I stalled trying to get a group going this year and my own personal queen rearing also went off on a bit of a tangent but im still keen to get something going.

I think many of us are passively rearing queens through swarm control, or lack thereof.  This year I've been a little bit more organised around it but still making the most of the bees urge to swarm.

I want to be more organised and with more people. There's nearly 150 apiaries within 10 miles of me so aiming for a "pure" bee type is probably fruitless, but I do feel that with just a few other people working together we could make a big difference to our bees so I'll also he keeping a close eye on this thread to pick up some hints and tips.

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## Jon

Slightly at a tangent but here are some photos one of the group members posted from last Wednesday evening. (Thanks Conall)
If you have a mailing list you can forward links like this to all the other group members which is very useful.

http://flic.kr/p/cjdcJN

http://flic.kr/p/cjcZNW

http://flic.kr/p/cjcDsE

http://flic.kr/p/cjc1wQ

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## The Drone Ranger

> Great thread, I stalled trying to get a group going this year and my own personal queen rearing also went off on a bit of a tangent but im still keen to get something going.
> 
> I think many of us are passively rearing queens through swarm control, or lack thereof.  This year I've been a little bit more organised around it but still making the most of the bees urge to swarm.
> 
> I want to be more organised and with more people. There's nearly 150 apiaries within 10 miles of me so aiming for a "pure" bee type is probably fruitless, but I do feel that with just a few other people working together we could make a big difference to our bees so I'll also he keeping a close eye on this thread to pick up some hints and tips.


Nellie I have read of breeding programs in Denmark where the pure bred bees on an isolated Island are encouraged to produce drones.
Off Island beekeepers produce mini nucs with a virgin queen. The Nuc is inspected for drones there have to be none.
The Nuc is transported to the Island and the queen allowed to mate with the AMM drones
The beekeeper gets his nuc back and raises his queens from that source.
Year 2 same procedure after a few years he has AMM strain.

The difficulty arises in making sure you don't have swarms supercedure etc.
You also are restricted to mating your queens the same way every year

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## The Drone Ranger

> Great thread, I stalled trying to get a group going this year and my own personal queen rearing also went off on a bit of a tangent but im still keen to get something going.
> 
> I think many of us are passively rearing queens through swarm control, or lack thereof.  This year I've been a little bit more organised around it but still making the most of the bees urge to swarm.
> 
> I want to be more organised and with more people. There's nearly 150 apiaries within 10 miles of me so aiming for a "pure" bee type is probably fruitless, but I do feel that with just a few other people working together we could make a big difference to our bees so I'll also he keeping a close eye on this thread to pick up some hints and tips.


Nellie I have read of breeding programs in Denmark where the pure bred bees on an isolated Island are encouraged to produce drones.
Off Island beekeepers produce mini nucs with a virgin queen. The Nuc is inspected for drones there have to be none.
The Nuc is transported to the Island and the queen allowed to mate with the AMM drones
The beekeeper gets his nuc back and raises his queens from that source.
Year 2 same procedure after a few years he has AMM strain.

The difficulty arises in making sure you don't have swarms supercedure etc.
You also are restricted to mating your queens the same way every year

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## Jon

DR
The Germans have the same system re. Carnica on some island in the Baltic.
There was a video about it on the old DWE site.
Mating nucs with bees and a virgin queen were sent by rail and ferry and returned with a mated queen.
Any mating nuc which arrived with a drone in it was rejected and sent back.

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR
> The Germans have the same system re. Carnica on some island in the Baltic.
> There was a video about it on the old DWE site.
> Mating nucs with bees and a virgin queen were sent by rail and ferry and returned with a mated queen.
> Any mating nuc which arrived with a drone in it was rejected and sent back.


Hi Jon 
That system could work here even if the isolated apiary was  in  a remote and unfavourable location where the bees needed feeding in the early part of the season.

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## Neils

I think we're lacking a suitable isolated island that a £10 contribution might buy  :Big Grin:  that being said I think we can create a "bubble" of good drones with a few people interested, it might take a couple of seasons to reap the benefits but I think we can strive for good natured bees and work from there.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I think we're lacking a suitable isolated island that a £10 contribution might buy  that being said I think we can create a "bubble" of good drones with a few people interested, it might take a couple of seasons to reap the benefits but I think we can strive for good natured bees and work from there.


It's easy enough to pick the well behaved and replace the grumpy ones and for a lot of us that's good enough.
You might be able to find an isolated mating spot without an island providing it's fairly uninhabited and too poor to support commercial beekeeping but you would be feeding them more often. 
Farms that don't grow crops and are at some altitude but without heather ?
Forestry Commission pine forest.
I'm sure there are better suggestions

Bet there are hundreds of hives in Weston Big Wood for the lime trees ?

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## The Drone Ranger

http://bbgroup.forum-phpbb.co.uk/t34...mating-station

Buckfast back on the map ?

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## Neils

The south west is a bit weird, much of the agriculture is livestock based and there's a massive concentration of beekeepers. Avon has over 500 members, Dorset, Somerset and Gloucestershire are at least as big both geographically and in terms of members. It's not insurmountable, but finding a quiet spot where you might get a degree of isolation is going to be hard. There is also a massive amount of importation going on. A guy close to me who bought italian based stock a couple of years ago is now brining in both carnolian and buckfast queens. I don't think he's unusual around these parts but I think that's going to cause problems and not just for him.

We also have a lot of "let alone" beekeepers trusting that their choice of Warre or Top Bar Hive makes their bees immune to the problems that everyone else has to deal with and oblivious to the fact that it's the rest of us getting phone calls to come pick their bees out of trees because we're visible as beekeepers so it must be our bees hanging off that tree.

There are times when I feel that if everyone else but me was banned from keeping bees it would be a far more pleasurable experience.  :Big Grin:

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Nellie

Yes the big beekeeping operations do sometimes switch bee breed and that's not good for the rest of us.
After years of importing Carolinian Queens one of the biggest in Scotland just decided to bring in Italians this year. 
Course that's just second hand you would have to consult Gavin or somebody in the SBA who is friendly with them to get the low down.

The point is though, if you had say 6 hives and been selecting your queens against a backdrop of Carolinian Drones, all that work could be stood on its head in a single season.
It's not just a temperament thing I think that most crosses can be ok, its more that the whole management of your bees can change. Swarming time , colony size, winter feeding, all the stuff that's particular to your own bees in your location

Sound like your in a location thats great for bees but not so easy for beekeepers  :Smile:

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## Jon

> all that work could be stood on its head in a single season.


I worry about that as well but the trick is to hold on to 2 or 3 year old queens which have the right genetics and have mated with the right drones.
If the matings are particularly bad in a given season you would still have some decent queens to graft from in the following season.
If you graft from known genetics your drone colonies should always be ok irrespective of the matings.
I have about half a dozen colonies with a lot of yellow banded bees but all the drones are black. I am 100% confident about the queen these queens were grafted from so they are perfect as drone producers. I would never graft from any of these.

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## prakel

> If the matings are particularly bad in a given season you would still have some decent queens to graft from in the following season.


A sound reason for forming breeding groups -even if they take the form of more loosely knit groups of co-operating keepers that willingly swap queens between themselves. In some ways it might be just as beneficial for 'swap groups' to be encouraged in the sense that the different participants (so long as they agree on breeding local queens _or_ agree on a pure race) will be working from their own selection and management criteria within an agreed locality and may find that their parallel efforts speed up the over-all improvement of the local stock. Of course, the idea falls short if the amazingly small proportion of keepers breeding their own stock in NI is representative of the rest of the UK.

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## Feckless Drone

Something that hit me coming to end of my first season of trying to keep bees was how important it is to be able to raise your own Qs - I'm learning (4 recently mated Qs this year) but I am not sure that any 1 of them would meet Jon's criteria for selective breeding. That bit I'll have to work on. This really is a subject to emphasize in beginners courses and an important activity for local associations. its also quite good fun to try and get things working right. 

FD

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## Jon

Raising your own queens is a better starting point than buying an imported queen and mixing up the gene pool.
The main problem I see is that people tend to make up nucs with whatever queen cells they have available.
My best colonies rarely make queen cells so unless you are grafting from them,  these ones will be ignored at the expense of the colonies with swarmy genetics which make queen cells at the drop of a hat.
There seems to be a scene here whereby someone finding a queen cell in whatever colony thinks it is a good idea to make up a nuc with it.
I am encouraging group members to destroy queen cells they find in their own colonies and replace them with grafted ones from better stock.
If a colony has just swarmed the part left behind is perfect for requeening or for raising a frame of grafts. (after removal of its own queen cells)

It is really difficult to be a beekeeper if your bees are swarmy and/or aggressive.

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## Feckless Drone

> It is really difficult to be a beekeeper if your bees are swarmy and/or aggressive.


Oh yes! That's lesson 1 from my first year and why in my Q raising efforts I've begged Q-cell from one of Gavin's colonies that is very well behaved and by prioritising one of my colonies over the other. And why the italian looking swarm Q is unlikely to go into winter. Fully agree with idea of careful selection and for the role that association/groups might play to help get people started with the right type of colony. But appreciate here in Tayside there are issues that would complicate getting, for example pure Amm established.

FD

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## The Drone Ranger

I wonder how many beekeepers there are in Scotland ?
SBA membership is around 1200 or so
Now if that averaged out at about 5 hives each that's 6000 hives
I suspect that figure would be dwarfed by the number of commercial hives moving around the country.

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## gavin

I hope to look at mine tomorrow FD, but the last time I looked several nucs with virgin queens from those two gentle stocks were sitting in colonies with highly polished areas surrounded by arcs of pollen.

As far the relative numbers of hobby and commercial stocks goes, Murray is the one with apiaries in the area of the association apiary.  His stocks in that area are the ones he calls native types and the imported NZ carnies are elsewhere.  Plus we have a truly isolated site in mind with permission from the owners, and control of the genetics at each end of that valley.  Just not enough stocks and time yet to use it.  The combination of a central nucleus of purer stocks feeding into (and using selected queens from) a broader network of apiaries in more mixed areas sounds like a good plan to me.  As long as there is energy and commitment amongst those who would like to make it happen, and that is never an unlimited resource - including from me.  Belfast is very fortunate to have Jon.

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## drumgerry

> I wonder how many beekeepers there are in Scotland ?
> SBA membership is around 1200 or so
> Now if that averaged out at about 5 hives each that's 6000 hives
> I suspect that figure would be dwarfed by the number of commercial hives moving around the country.


Here in Moray we have approx 120 members in our association and maybe a max of 20 of them are in the SBA.  I'd not be surprised if a similar situation pertained in the rest of Scotland.  So maybe a fair bit more than your 6000 hives DR?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Here in Moray we have approx 120 members in our association and maybe a max of 20 of them are in the SBA.  I'd not be surprised if a similar situation pertained in the rest of Scotland.  So maybe a fair bit more than your 6000 hives DR?


Hi Drumgerry 

Your probably right about the number of beekeepers
How many hives would you estimate your Association would have in total ?
Are there commercial beekeeping operations in your association area ?

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## drumgerry

Hi DR

Maybe about 50% and rising have actual bees.  I say and rising as some of the bee-less ones are getting bees from swarms etc.  Estimated hive numbers?  Maybe 3-400.  Our secretary has 50+ and a maybe a dozen others including me have more than 10.  So 3-400 might be a reasonable estimate.  As far as I know we don't have any commercial beeks operating in Moray.

I think I'm reasonably accurate on SBA membership and reported the same to Alasdair Joyce during an SBA skype video conference a couple of weeks ago.

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## The Drone Ranger

> As far the relative numbers of hobby and commercial stocks goes, Murray is the one with apiaries in the area of the association apiary.  His stocks in that area are the ones he calls native types and the imported NZ carnies are elsewhere.  Plus we have a truly isolated site in mind with permission from the owners, and control of the genetics at each end of that valley.  Just not enough stocks and time yet to use it.  The combination of a central nucleus of purer stocks feeding into (and using selected queens from) a broader network of apiaries in more mixed areas sounds like a good plan to me.  As long as there is energy and commitment amongst those who would like to make it happen, and that is never an unlimited resource - including from me.  Belfast is very fortunate to have Jon.


sounds like a plan  :Smile: 

An isolated site is a sort of pre-requisite 

I grew up in Longforgan (I don't know if I mentioned that already)

Does Murray Macgregor do wing samples on his native types ?

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## gavin

The trouble is, it is still really just a plan.  It will take effort on someone's part to make it happen.  Thought that would be me, and now I'm not so sure.  Murray isn't interested in keeping his native-type stocks pure (yet!) although he does have some interest in keeping a pool of selected NZ types from which to breed queens.

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## The Drone Ranger

I've was stung a few times yesterday putting some food on the hives (ungrateful)
My thumb is swollen from an infected/broken off sting
Hey ho!
The Co-0p could target its funding to native type bees instead

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## GRIZZLY

Wish we could get something going here in S.W.Scotland.

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## prakel

Jon, or anyone else involved in one of these groups, do you encourage the members to evaluate their own colonies and then put forward any that they think worthy of further (group) assessment for possible use as breeder stock or is the group pretty much just learning the queen rearing skills while working with colonies which have been donated by the group leaders/motivators?

In a similar vein (and at the risk of asking you to generalize), are the members evaluating their own colonies with the intention of keeping their best lines or do they tend to approach from the perspective that they want to requeen everything with group raised queens irrespective of what they may already have?

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## Jon

Hi Prakel. We are only finding our feet as a group. This is only the second year and a lot of the members are relative beginners.
there is a lot of basic beekeeping to learn as well as the queen rearing.

The grafts are being done from several colonies I brought to the association apiary and one other there which has a good queen which came from my stock last year.



At the moment I think the priority is learning the basics such as managing an apidea, finding, marking and clipping queens, methods of requeening a colony, and stuff like that.

I keep careful records but I don't see many others in the group doing that yet.

The biggest issue for our local beekeepers is swarm control. Very few are on top of it.
90% of the older established beekeepers make no attempt at swarm control so they set a bad example for the new ones.
I have had beekeepers argue with me that all bees swarm so there is no point trying to stop it.

Evaluating a colony requires a fair bit of experience and judgement. A colony is hard to assess if you wear so much protection you can work oblivious to serious aggression.
People I know who have psycho bees think they are acceptable.
'Feisty' is the word often used.

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## HJBee

Jon, from a beginners perspective, I would not like to think I have failed if my bees swarm, as long as I have made every attempt to do the husbandry to prevent. So out of interest how many of your hives have swarmed and how many have not, and for those that did what was the main cause in your view?

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## Neils

HJ,

I wouldn't see bees swarming as a failure per se, this is the first year where I so far haven't lost a swarm (still time yet!). To date I've always managed to be there to hoik them back into a hive, but I'm aware how disruptive and intimidating a swarm can be, and how little I enjoy having to collect the bloody things when they aren't my bees.

I do think there is a difference between trying to manage swarming and losing one anyway and making no effort to manage it or, even worse, encouraging it. This is definitely an area where clipping can be a real bonus, it gives you the added security that even if you miss the signs, and you lose the queen, that you aren't going to end up with your bees hanging in a neighbours tree.

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## Jon

1 out of 18 colonies has made queen cells this year.
last year it was something like 4 out of 14.
I did an artificial swarm on that one at the association apiary and requeened it with a queen cell and it still managed to throw a cast.
That was my fault as it made extra queen cells and I didn't check a few days later to remove them.

A lot of the swarminess is in the genetics.
The other main cause is overfeeding in Spring when they don't need it.
I will have a few start swarm preparations in July.

All beekeepers lose swarms on occasion but I know a beekeeper with a couple of colonies who loses 2 primes and several casts every year.
Clipping the queens is a big help if you are doing weekly checks May June and July.

Sometimes I feel I am banging my head against a brick wall as it is the experienced keepers who do no swarm control.
Their swarm management is better stated as swarm retrieval from hedges and bushes.

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## HJBee

Impressive stats. Interesting re spring feeding, will lock that away in memory vaults. Have enough equipment to move to a double brood next year, but may re think and get an extra roof / crown board & floor instead for doing an AS. Not sure yet.

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## prakel

Jon, thanks for the overview; I pretty much based the second part of my question on the fact that your own group is quite young. This raised the question in my mind as to whether some of the less experienced members may possibly find themselves just going with the flow and maybe even culling what are actually good queens simply because they're lacking the confidence to think that their own bees may actually be as good as those raised by the group in some respects, hence my question about whether they're encouraged to assess their own colonies. 

Maybe developing a group methodolodgy for assessment from an early point which could possibly be backed up by members visiting each others apiaries and submitting assessments for later discussion/comparrison might encourage a deeper understanding of what it is that they're involved in. They would feel some of the pressure of selection which would in itself draw them right into the centre of the group. More work for someone(!!) to organize and more effort on the part of the members admittedly... 

I agree with what you wrote about colony assessment in it's broad outline although I do have some reservations about the suggested ability of an inexperienced keeper to be able to work oblivious to serious aggression -no matter what they're wearing. As we all know, when you've got one of 'those' colonies you know about it! But I'm knit picking here for no good reason.

I like the idea of a practical group with similar goals that can learn from each other and may even throw the idea about a bit to see what kind of interest there is.

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## Jon

> maybe even culling what are actually good queens


A lot of the folk can't find their queens yet!
The main problem with the general bee stock in my area is swarminess.
For a long time there has been a culture of giving swarms to beginners and this has been a mechanism for perpetuating swarmy genetics over the years.
You would not believe how many swarms some beekeepers produce and they run out of equipment by mid may and start disbursing cast swarms left right and centre to anyone who wants one.
These bees are seriously naff. If you rehouse a prime swarm it will be making queen cells again within a month.
A lot of them are ok temper wise but they are really hard to manage re. swarm control.

With a new group you have to avoid blinding people with science or too much technical stuff.
The key goal is to whip up enthusiasm for bee breeding and rearing your own queens.
In the long run you want people to start doing this at home or maybe even starting up another group.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR
> 
> Maybe about 50% and rising have actual bees.  I say and rising as some of the bee-less ones are getting bees from swarms etc.  Estimated hive numbers?  Maybe 3-400.  Our secretary has 50+ and a maybe a dozen others including me have more than 10.  So 3-400 might be a reasonable estimate.  As far as I know we don't have any commercial beeks operating in Moray.
> 
> I think I'm reasonably accurate on SBA membership and reported the same to Alasdair Joyce during an SBA skype video conference a couple of weeks ago.


That is surprising that half the associations members don't have bees 
That must be a bit of a worry for you that they don't get impatient and order some.
but you are in good shape for a bee breeding project and have a ready outlet for the bees

I thought about it and realised most of the people I know with bees are not SBA either (but I don't know many beekeepers)

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## prakel

> You would not believe how many swarms some beekeepers produce and they run out of equipment by mid may and start disbursing cast swarms left right and centre to anyone who wants one.
> These bees are seriously naff. If you rehouse a prime swarm it will be making queen cells again within a month.
> A lot of them are ok temper wise but they are really hard to manage re. swarm control.


I had three Carnica type swarms turn up at a single apiary during the first half of May -actually had another three turn up elsewhere in the general area- which I'm convinced came from the same hive; you could see the decreasing size with each arrival, the third barely covered two BS frames (of which I don't have many lurking around but they are good for bait hives). I won't be at all surprised to see them make an attempt to 'go' again later this year.




> ...blinding people with science or too much technical stuff.


Not a chance in Hell of that happening in these parts!




> The key goal is to whip up enthusiasm for bee breeding and rearing your own queens.
> In the long run you want people to start doing this at home or maybe even starting up another group.


Totally agree with this, the more people giving thought to what they're doing the better especially if they can then get even more people thinking the same way -but without resorting to brow-beating. Back last summer I stopped to talk to a couple of guys collecting a swarm from outside of a local library, nice enough chaps, one of them made quite a big, eloquent, thing about stopping the import of bees from NZ then, later in the conversation he announced that he was planning to try a couple of the Danish Buckfast queens! He just couldn't see the flawed logic of his own thinking but would be the first in line to condemn someone for bringing in a NZ Carnica.

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## Jon

I try and avoid the spats with people who keep bees other than amm as a holier than thou attitude wins few friends.
If you get enough enthusiastic people in a group the thing gains critical mass.

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## drumgerry

> That is surprising that half the associations members don't have bees 
> That must be a bit of a worry for you that they don't get impatient and order some.


We've grown in size very rapidly DR.  From a low of maybe 20 or less members 8-10 years ago.  But we feel like we're quite a progressive association and try to do lots for the members and the community.  As an example last year there were approx 40 people in Scotland who passed the SBA Basic Beemaster and I think 10 of those were from Moray.  So things are going well.  We have lots of beginners but we're giving them as much training and support as they want.

Surprisingly few have gone out and bought imported nucs as far as I know.  And those who have are a long way from the upland area where we'd like to put our mating apiary.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I try and avoid the spats with people who keep bees other than amm as a holier than thou attitude wins few friends.
> If you get enough enthusiastic people in a group the thing gains critical mass.


Like the ex smokers who decide to convert the rest of their friends

Or the good old Jehovah witnesses  who everyone knows are lovely people but we still lock our doors when we see them coming. 

The five a day crowd who although they now know it doesn't protect against anything carry on telling we should eat them anyway.

Cyclists who kick cars because they are ruining the peaceful planet.

and people who make lists they are the worst  :Smile:

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## Jon

Never kicked a car in my life although I admit to the odd expletive when some boy racer overtakes me at 60mph about 4 inches away from my right elbow.

Bird watchers I know describe people as 'low-listers' meaning that if you spend all day day somewhere and record only a robin a wren and a chaffinch as opposed to 97 species and a couple of vagrants blown in then you are clearly one of life's failures.

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## The Drone Ranger

> We've grown in size very rapidly DR.  From a low of maybe 20 or less members 8-10 years ago.  But we feel like we're quite a progressive association and try to do lots for the members and the community.  As an example last year there were approx 40 people in Scotland who passed the SBA Basic Beemaster and I think 10 of those were from Moray.  So things are going well.  We have lots of beginners but we're giving them as much training and support as they want.
> 
> Surprisingly few have gone out and bought imported nucs as far as I know.  And those who have are a long way from the upland area where we'd like to put our mating apiary.


Sounds great best keep it under your hat or we'll all be moving there.
I'm in an agricultural area rape,potatoes,grain that's the rotation
Lots of seasonal bee movements (not me I'm too lazy)
Your secretary must have a big extractor for 50 hives  :Smile: 
Suggest he gets cracking on the AMM queen breeding they're £75 a pop (forget the honey how many jars is that)
The only beekeeping test I have passed is being stung 30 times in the legs and still able to run (don't drop the hive)

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## The Drone Ranger

> Never kicked a car in my life although I admit to the odd expletive when some boy racer overtakes me at 60mph about 4 inches away from my right elbow.
> 
> Bird watchers I know describe people as 'low-listers' meaning that if you spend all day day somewhere and record only a robin a wren and a chaffinch as opposed to 97 species and a couple of vagrants blown in then you are clearly one of life's failures.


Steady on I might be one of those vagrants
Sun is shining now so it's down to the offie for some Buckfast

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## Jon

> The only beekeeping test I have passed is being stung 30 times in the legs and still able to run (don't drop the hive)


I have similar qualifications.
I remember last years I got about 20 stings to the wrist filling a stack of apideas on a rainy day and realizing half way through that I should have sealed that gap between glove and sleeve before I started.

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## Jon

> Sun is shining now so it's down to the offie for some Buckfast


I prefer my apple wine made from local produce.
it's cheaper to brew your own rather than slipping out to the offie for a top up.
Buckfast appears to give a good initial hit but flatters to deceive in the long run and induces aggression when crossed.
Do you think 5 a day applies after fermentation?

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## Feckless Drone

> But we feel like we're quite a progressive association and try to do lots for the members and the community.


I do like the newsletter you produce - always of interest and worth seeking out.

"the low lister" FD

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## drumgerry

I can't take credit for the newsletter although some of my stuff has appeared in it.  Tony Harris our secretary does the newsletter every month.

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## drumgerry

Back on the subject of groups - 

Is the BIBBA groups guy usually difficult to get hold of?  I've tried emailing twice over the last couple of weeks with no reply.  I confess I'm less than impressed with my first dealings with the organisation as a new member.

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## Rosie

Drumgerry, if you care to pm me with any complaints I will try to take them up with the BIBBA people responsible.  The last few people who recently joined BIBBA were full of praise for their new efficiency so it's disappointing to hear you are not happy.  Perhaps someone is on holiday or otherwise indisposed.

Steve

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## Jon

Hi Steve.
Should we be registering queenrearing groups with Bibba in some way?
It would be good to get something organised about swapping queens.
I have had quite a few PMs here and elsewhere about getting hold of a decent queen or two to graft from.
This is a real problem for people who want to work with native or native type bees.
They can't get hold of the stock.
A criticism often leveled at Bibba is that queens are not made available.
I appreciate that Bibba is not a queen vendor but maybe we need to get more organised about sharing/swapping genetic material to the different queenrearing groups around the UK.
There is some pretty decent stock in Ireland thanks to the Galtee bee breeding programme.
Maybe the thing would be to release two year old queens after a year of grafting from them.

My problem is that I really hate to let new queens go until I have assessed them.
Last year I saw a lot of yellow banding but a little bird has told me that my Buckfast loving near neighbour lost 13/15 colonies over winter due to poor varroa control.

We have two groups going here now, Mervyn's people in Dromore and our group in Belfast.
We have also been attracting in members of another local association, Killinchy, and a couple of them grafted at home for the first time into a queenless colony and got cells started so that might be a third local queenrearing group this time next year.

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## Rosie

The essence of BIBBA is that it's an association of breeding groups.  The BIBBA year book contains all the groups that have registered and shows their location and contact details.  Not all the groups have expert queen rearers but have registered in order to facilitate a dialogue with other groups.  Around here we have made contact with others and have offered the use of our remote mating site and also genetic material.  BIBBA'a success depends on as many people as possible forming themselves into groups and registering their existence so that we can work together and for the established groups to help the newer ones and extend our influence.  So yes - register ASAP!

As for assessing your queens before releasing them I think that provided you are honest about what you have and your doubts then making your stock available to others can only be a good thing.  People can be left to make up their own minds about whether your bees will be suitable for their own district.

Steve

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## drumgerry

Interesting that you say there's a yearbook Steve but I asked about a "member's handbook" and was told it's not being printed this year.  Not great for the likes of me who's keen to set up a group, with no way to contact others about the subject except through this forum.  It would be nice to have some sort of information and help from BIBBA.  All I've had so far are the magazine and an emailed welcome letter which I had to ask about in order to get!

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## Rosie

They started printing one very year but decided this year to give it a miss, probably because not everyone appreciated it and would have preferred a magazine instead.  No doubt there will be one next year.  As you are a member they might have a spare copy of last year's offering to give you.  I would ask Enid, our membership secretary at membership-secretary@bibba.com, if she can arrange for one to be sent to you.

Steve

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## drumgerry

I don't want you to get the wrong idea - I think Bibba are a wonderful organisation and I know that like most beekeeping bodies they're run by amateurs.  Maybe a more comprehensive guide to groups on the website would be a good idea.   And if the ethos of Bibba is to foster a network of groups then it needs to be a good bit easier than this to set one of their groups up.   Or as in my case to carry out the planning stages. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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## Rosie

I agree.  BIBBA are currently working on a whole new website full of knobs and whistles that will make everything easier.  The old one was set up and maintained by Dave Cushman and when he died we had no-one who could decipher Dave's system which he had built from first principles.  Roger Patterson hid himself away to get to grips with the thing and can now maintain it but while he was working on it the committee decided to start again with a new, modern one.  The old one is now just kept ticking over until the new one is ready.

As for setting up groups there are no rules about how it should be done but BIBBA used to have an old booklet that contained some suggestions.  It's out of print and I have never seen it so Jo, the groups secretary, has been planning to publish an updated one for a while but, presumably, has been too busy to complete the task.  

Some time ago we appealed for members to put themselves forward as regional group coordinators but we failed to get enough volunteers to cover the whole area.  I cover North Wales and, I believe, Enid covers the whole of Scotland - too big an area in my opinion.  The co-ordinators are meant to help you to organise, to provide some technical help and better access to the BIBBA committee and services.

At the end of the day to become a group you need your members to agree how they should run their own group and then email Jo Widdicombe with the group name and contact details.  How you run the group is up to you but the last BIBBA magazine should help as it describes several existing groups and explains how they are run.  You will see that they are all different and range in complexity and size from 1 person to around 100.  When we got organised in North Wales we did not refer to any existing group structures but sorted out a system that suited us.  The overriding circumstances that dictated the structure we ended up with were the cost of fuel, poor road communications and dispersed locations of all the interested parties.  We ended up with lots of small groups who got together occasionally in one large assembly to hold talks, training sessions and to compare stocks.  We also have an agreement whereby we are each entitled to take grafts from any colony belonging to any beekeeper. That enables every member to have the pick of hundreds of colonies to breed from.  We have also arranged a remote mating site that all the groups can use and we obtained a small grant to help make the site sheep-proof, to purchase a shared carricell, scanner and queenrearing equipment.  As far as I know none of our small groups carries money or collects subs.  Each individual owns his own kit apart from the small amount that was purchased with the grant money.  Those items are officially owned by the local beekeeping association who are happy to encourage our BIBBA groups as they can see the advantage of our flooding the whole area with compatible drones.  The association also has a nuc co-ordinator who puts new beekeepers in touch with group members so that we can offer local bees to all novices.

Steve

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## Jon

There is a massive interest in queenrearing.
I have nearly 50 people on a mailing list I started compiling in Mid May and there are usually more than 20 attending our Monday evening meetings.
Getting a tenner off most of them buys a hell of a lot of cell cups and queenrearing equipment. It even stretched to buying a smoker and hive tool and stuff like that which stays permanently at the association apiary.

At the moment all the grafts are coming from my queens as we are in the early stages of this and almost all the group members have swarmy mongrels.
Over the next couple of years I would like to think there is a significant improvement in the local bee stock.
A lot of the people in the group are at the end of their rope with the stock they have.
One group member was given a prime swarm on 14th May.
She called me about a swarm in her garden on 1st July and when I checked her bees there was only a wee bit of drone brood and a few cells of worker. Her colony must have swarmed again about 27 days after being housed and the one in the garden was a cast.
How can anyone manage bees like that?
They were not overfed and had plenty of room.
A lot of our members have stock like that.

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## prakel

> I had three Carnica type swarms turn up at a single apiary during the first half of May -actually had another three turn up elsewhere in the general area- which I'm convinced came from the same hive; you could see the decreasing size with each arrival, the third barely covered two BS frames (of which I don't have many lurking around but they are good for bait hives). I won't be at all surprised to see them make an attempt to 'go' again later this year.


Returning to this one in the spirit of fairness.

Not one of those carnica swarms made any effort to go again and all, apart from one which turned drone layer, gave a good (to v.good) account of themselves in a less than ideal summer.

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