# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Possible small hive beetle in Switzerland

## Calum

Hi
well it is a dark day today indeed. Kanton Uri (Switzerland) has a suspected case of hive beatle. 
So it is over the Apls now. Just about 100km away from me.

I recommend you all urgently write to your MP and whoever else you can think of to have all bee imports from mainland Europe stopped forthwith.

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## mbc

> Hi
> well it is a dark day today indeed. Kanton Uri (Switzerland) has a suspected case of hive beatle. 
> So it is over the Apls now. Just about 100km away from me.
> 
> I recommend you all urgently write to your MP and whoever else you can think of to have all bee imports from mainland Europe stopped forthwith.


Bad news indeed if it turns out to be confirmed.

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## greengumbo

> Hi
> well it is a dark day today indeed. Kanton Uri (Switzerland) has a suspected case of hive beatle. 
> So it is over the Apls now. Just about 100km away from me.
> 
> I recommend you all urgently write to your MP and whoever else you can think of to have all bee imports from mainland Europe stopped forthwith.


Do you have a source for this story Calum ? Bad news indeed  :Frown:

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## Calum

> Do you have a source for this story Calum ? Bad news indeed


http://www.urnerwochenblatt.ch/start.asp?level=2

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## busybeephilip

> http://www.urnerwochenblatt.ch/start.asp?level=2



I hope I'm correct when I say that the image looks like fly maggots feeding on the remains of a winter die out cluster, I have seem similar before in dead hives.  Then i cant read the language.

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## James O

There's a German PDF document with what looks like more detail at www.vdrb.ch. My German is between non-existent and very poor but there does seem to be more detail than was in the link Calum posted.

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## Jon

That link confirms it is SHB in Switzerland although google translate is a bit ropey.
And to think we have people currently importing bees from Italy into Scotland and elsewhere.
Some people get to take the risk on behalf of all the rest of us. Does not seem fair.





> Homepage VDRB 31-03-15_B Reihl.docx
> Page 1 of 2
> Normal.dotm
> Version 06.08.2010
> Suspected of being infected with the "Small hive beetle"
> first north of the Alps and in
> of Switzerland
> 28 March 2015, a histori for us beekeepers
> Che's date in the negative sense be.
> ...

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## Jon

And it must be obvious that the arrival was via a migratory beekeeper or an importer as the beetles are not going to jump the length of Italy in one leap.

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## gavin

It really isn't looking good, but these are still 'suspect larvae' which have been sent to the reference laboratory for confirmation.  

I read somewhere that Swiss bee inspectors were invited to special training on 7th March so they *ought* to know what they are looking for.

Ironically, the Swiss have recently agreed an import ban to help protect them from small hive beetle.  Yet another reason for pressing once more to seek better protection for Scottish and UK beekeepers.

http://genevalunch.com/2015/03/26/s-...en-swiss-ones/

(Thanks to my special source for that one, you know who you are  :Wink: )

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## Calluna4u

> I hope I'm correct when I say that the image looks like fly maggots feeding on the remains of a winter die out cluster, I have seem similar before in dead hives.  Then i cant read the language.


If this is an actual photo of the problem, and not a library pic, then you are spot on. If it is only a random maggotty pic then we have no idea. A lot of innocent wood wasps were splattered last autumn caused by a panicky mistaken identity.

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## Calum

Hi
I will keep an eye on it. No confirmation so far.
If we will have to live with it, it seems to be manageable...
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/as...nt-options.pdf
The beekeeper suppliers will be happy to be able to sell us more 20pence articles for _x_pounds....

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## Adam

[QUOTE=gavin;29611
Ironically, the Swiss have recently agreed an import ban to help protect them from small hive beetle.  Yet another reason for pressing once more to seek better protection for Scottish and UK beekeepers[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The Annual Delegates meeting of the BBKA had a vote FOR a ban by the delegates, but the BBKA executive has not done anything that I am aware of.

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## Jon

The bbka has an uncanny knack of getting on the wrong side of every issue.

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## Pete L

From the BBKA website....


> 2 April 2015 
> Further update: Small Hive Beetle
> Small Hive Beetle (SHB) and Importation of Honey bees and hive products Further to the recent posting on the BBKA website the subject was discussed at the meeting of the Bee Health Advisory Forum held on 30 March 2015. 
> It is clear that the Government is not minded to contemplate a ban on the importation of honey bees reiterating its previous position that the current exportation restrictions in place in Italy and the importation and inspection controls in place for the UK are appropriate.
> The BBKA, mandated by the membership at its 2015 Annual Delegate Meeting  to demand a ban on imports from the affected area, remains concerned about the fact that any importation of honeybees 
> increases the possibility of the introduction of Small Hive Beetle into the country.  The best way to ensure that the pest is not imported into the country on honey bees is to introduce a temporary restriction on the importation of honey bees into the UK and that this remains in place until the 
> outbreak in Italy is under control and the pest has been eradicated. It is inappropriate to focus activity on containing this new pest on arrival in the UK, as appears to be the preferred approach.  
> More stringent measures are needed to prevent or at the very least delay the arrival of SHB, which will give beekeepers and the authorities more time to prepare for any outbreak.
> The BBKA will continue to press the authorities to impose a ban


.....

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## gavin

> From the BBKA website.........


Interesting.  Why then did the BBKA make those silly pronouncements on the relative risks of fruit and bees after the Italian infestation was uncovered?  Better late than never I suppose.

This is just in.  An announcement from NBU via Scottish Government staff:

'Although we knew  already, the Swiss authorities have formally confirmed that based on  morphological analysis and additional confirmation by PCR, the suspect  larvae found  in the apiary in the Canton of Uri are categorically* not Aethina tumida. *

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## Calluna4u

> .
> 'Although we knew  already, the Swiss authorities have formally confirmed that based on  morphological analysis and additional confirmation by PCR, the suspect  larvae found  in the apiary in the Canton of Uri are categorically* not Aethina tumida. *


The picture was obviously scavenging fly larvae feeding on the rotting corpses of bees.....not at all SHB food.

Surprised at two things. 1. That a bee inspector could have though it SHB. 2. The zeal with which a few seized on a plainly wrong diagnosis.
Plaudits and respect to busybeephilip for using his eyes and experience.

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## Neils

> Agreed. The Annual Delegates meeting of the BBKA had a vote FOR a ban by the delegates, but the BBKA executive has not done anything that I am aware of.


If you want to be picky the vote was that the BBKA should lobby government to change the legislation to ban the importation of bees. Would be safe to say that this was not enthusiastically received by the BBKA but I think it's a little optimistic to expect huge changes in 3 months (and expecting that the BFA would oppose it).

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## Jon

> Surprised at two things...


Only a matter of time though if imports continue and lets hope this scare focuses a few minds.

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## prakel

> ....lets hope this scare focuses a few minds.


My increasing cynicism makes me think that it's more likely to go the other way and encourage complacency... 'wasn't anything in it last time...'

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## Calum

False alarm- breathing normally again http://www.vdrb.ch/aktuelles/news/ne...-im-kanton-uri


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## Calluna4u

> Only a matter of time though if imports continue and lets hope this scare focuses a few minds.


I know you are an experienced beekeeper of long standing and widely respected. You MUST have known what the picture showed. Your views on imports are of long standing and widely known. Busybeephilip is of (as far as I know) similar views on imports, yet observed, commented, and stuck to the evidence.

If you jump in on an obviously false or erroneous story and knowingly use it to support your cause you do it no good. Thats just fanning the flames of a scare campaign.

Whilst we have no wish to be dealing with SHB and should always be taking sensible (yes, I know that can mean vastly different things to different people) to keep the risk of it arriving very low, its important to stick to facts and keep things in proportion. However it is something that will at the very worst be merely a secondary pest of the hive (its not a bee disease) and folk with a powerful agenda about imports are making a major scare out of a relatively minor pest. All the really scary pictures are from tropical or sub tropical areas.

Given its main historic vectors of international spread it is most unlikely that it has not been to these islands before. Probably several times. Do we want it? Of course not, but even if it does arrive it will be a rarity most will never see. An apocalyptic and catastrophic arrival as some are choosing to portray it it is not.

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## mbc

> If this is an actual photo of the problem, and not a library pic, then....


I think we could all see what was in the photo, the doubt about it was as you yourself posted above.  
It is quite scary how believable that this little beastie had jumped so far so quickly is.

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## gavin

> You MUST have known what the picture showed.


No, the Swiss inspectors had 'emergency meetings', and had already put into place movement restrictions - they clearly didn't know it wasn't SHB, so why should Jon have had that certainty?  I've seen it in vials and I was far from certain that it wasn't SHB.

We should be able to discuss these things without suggesting that folk are knowingly using false arguments.  I think that some of your arguments are false, but I'm not going to suggest (or think) that you *know* they are!   :Stick Out Tongue: 

G.

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## Calum

> The picture was obviously scavenging fly larvae feeding on the rotting corpses of bees.....not at all SHB food.
> 
> Surprised at two things. 1. That a bee inspector could have though it SHB. 2. The zeal with which a few seized on a plainly wrong diagnosis.
> Plaudits and respect to busybeephilip for using his eyes and experience.


Zero tolerance of risk on the inspectors part. Quite correct!


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## Jon

> I know you are an experienced beekeeper of long standing and widely respected. You MUST have known what the picture showed.


Only just seen this post.
Disappointed to see an unwarranted personal attack.
After Calum posted, I followed links in German, which is a language I don't have, and translated documents in Google translate which described crisis meetings of the bee inspectorate in Switzerland and a discussion of whether the eggs were laid by a single SHB female on such and such a date.
Are you saying we should keep that information off the forum when SHB is a potential issue for all of us.

I know you are only protecting what you perceive to be your own business interests but bear in mind when you bring in imports from Italy you are taking a risk on behalf of every beekeeper in the UK. That's your call, but meanwhile don't be surprised if many of us continue to call for a ban on the import of nucs and packages. As I have said elsewhere the import of queens is much lower risk. For all we know SHB could already be out of Italy elsewhere in Europe.
One scenario is that is spreads slowly at the speed the beetles can fly and the other is that we will see sudden unexpected outbreaks due to the movement of bees from one place to another.

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## Calluna4u

> Disappointed to see an unwarranted personal attack.


What was unwarranted about it?

Post 7 you had it as confirmed. (re reading the rather strange translation I can see how you might have taken this view, but the rest was also very weird)
Post 8 you already had bee importers or migratory beekeepers to blame.


Nobody is importing nucs to my knowledge. That would be very foolish apart from in exceptional circumstances. As for my business interests? Well I did this originally as a common good project (you would be surprised at how many want and NEED the bees) and it most certainly does not generate money on a scale that you could call it greed driven. I do not NEED to be doing this but also do not want to be cut off from the large reservoir of excellent stock that is out there, even while at the same time building up a unit to breed thousands of queens and hundreds of nucs, both for our own use and sale.

To be honest my first impression on seeing that picture linked to a story like that was that it was someone's very unfunny idea of an April Fool story about a very serious matter. Only when I then researched it did I find that the story was in fact real.

ps.....just noticed that a huge chunk of this post ( a response to Gavin's latest input to this thread) has not appeared........................

May recompose it later........off out now.

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## Calum

Well chatting to the local beekeepers supply shop owner, they also recently stopped 80 colonies on the Swiss border and destroyed them. Something about the documents was not 100% correct... Couldn't let them in, nor go back. At least they take it seriously 


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## Calluna4u

> Well chatting to the local beekeepers supply shop owner, they also recently stopped 80 colonies on the Swiss border and destroyed them. Something about the documents was not 100% correct... Couldn't let them in, nor go back. At least they take it seriously 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's is not 'taking it seriously'......................that is a tragedy. Officialdom gone mad. Surely they could at least have allowed them to return to source.

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## drumgerry

I think the point is Calluna that it was a personal attack.  Maybe there's a better way to discuss things than using those?

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## Calluna4u

In post 8 people like myself, as I am both a bee importer (a very careful one) and a migratory beekeeper, were directly attacked and blamed. We were already guilty. All over an unconfirmed and ultimately false story. I certainly reserve the right to react in these circumstances. I would be as critical as anyone if ANY person brought in bees from the affected area or even close to it.

Anyway, Jon etc need have no direct fear, as none of the packages this year (only 1200 available from SAFE sources there and all fully committed) are destined across to Ireland, north or south. However, around 70% of them are destined for entities (associations, resellers and nuc vendors) who will onward move them to amateur beekeepers  around the UK. NBU are kept fully informed of all recipients, and the clients have to do so too. Most of the balance are destined for commercial beekeepers in southern England. None are for ourselves so they will not be turning up in Speyside, unless in ones and twos through onward sales by others.

As an aside, it is our standard advice that a package is really just a way to get your hive filled up again or started off. Then, especially if you live in a harsher climate area, some time in the season to requeen it with something more suited to your area. The queens we buy are actually selected by us, and are suitable for MOST of the UK, but the wilder windier and wetter areas need something different.

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## prakel

> if you live in a harsher climate area, some time in the season to requeen it with something more suited to your area. The queens we buy are actually selected by us, and are suitable for MOST of the UK, but the wilder windier and wetter areas need something different.


Just out of personal curiosity (bit of topic drift here) what queens are being used? I seem to remember reading a post by you a year or so ago where you mentioned that your Italian suppliers aren't interested in their own native bee (apologies if I've mis-remembered that).

edit: not a 'loaded' question by the way -living south of the Bournemouth demarcation line, we've got all sorts here!

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## Adam

*"and it most certainly does not generate money on a scale that you could call it greed driven".*

Yet you are importing 1200 packages. - may not be greed but surely that's a fair-sized commercial operation. I don't have a problem with people running a business - I have a business of my own - but to hide behind the first statement and to belittle your operation is a little bit disingenuous?

People here may not agree with imports, however it is always interesting to hear of other points of view and whilst importing bees is still legal we all post here because we are interested in beekeeping and to learn and exchange ideas; it just needs to be done with honesty and not any implied insults or any of that stuff.

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## Calluna4u

If I was hiding anything I would not give numbers. 1200 is a drop in the ocean, just a micro operation. It will save the enterprises of a few, and provide bees for many that do not have them today. It is not a profit driven exercise. 1200 is six days work. 3 2day trips. Last estimate of the number of imports through non official channels, (meaning the opinion of exporters in source countries and importers I know of) is between 12000 and 20000 a year (beebase figures are always low as they only record the imports where everything has been done right down the line). I think that figure high, but would be genuinely surprised at anything much under 8 to 10,000.

Take into account the ones currently supplied by local breeders, and the unsatisfied demand, then an annual need figure of 15 to 20,000 a year is entirely feasible. Just thrown in to illustrate the scale of the task facing those who wish to close the door and force the production to domestic sources. The issues of supply, quality, and price all push things towards continuation of responsibly sourced imports. Close the door without addressing all three of these points and the imports will still come in, just through irregular and unregulated channels. The main point being that good 3.3lb packages with mated laying queen are available for in the upper 80's (pounds), less reliable sources for in the low 60's.................and good well mated queens sell at source in the EU for a range of prices between 8 and 16 pounds.....higher than that and its niche market product. Anyone up for doing all this? I am going to be doing home bred nucs and queens in large numbers, and cannot get anywhere near those figures. Short season, inconsistent weather, high input costs....

If there was both a market and suitable production conditions the trade would be well established. That it is not tells us all something. 

Main reason we are going down the home breeding road is to give us a modicum of protection against those who would pull up the drawbridge. Mainly for our own unit but also for others who can face random and catastrophic winters from time to time. 

FWIW....... transhipment of packages often takes place at a particular location in Belgium. Two years ago I was there collecting some for England from one particular trader based in Sicily, but while we were there another fridge truck arrived loaded with 1200 packages in one load (it could carry even more and according to the driver normally did. These were to be transhipped later to traders arriving from Netherlands, Belgium, France, and the UK. That's one load. The driver was on a weekly round trip and CLAIMED to have a delivery with his truck to the UK coming up. Before anyone panics these were bees from Puglia, well inspected since the SHB outbreak and nothing found, it is over 400Km away. Just an illustration of the unseen scale of the trade.

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## Calluna4u

Attachment 2221Attachment 2222


> Just out of personal curiosity (bit of topic drift here) what queens are being used? I seem to remember reading a post by you a year or so ago where you mentioned that your Italian suppliers aren't interested in their own native bee (apologies if I've mis-remembered that).
> 
> edit: not a 'loaded' question by the way -living south of the Bournemouth demarcation line, we've got all sorts here!


No, you are perfectly correct. They actually have the same negative opinions of ligustica as we do. Less hard working, breed to the point of starvation, less resistant to disease, especially nosema.

The bees we source are from guys in a mountainous area, and are bred for a fairly harsh climate. Yes they get hot summers but they have to be tough as winter spells of -20C are not uncommon.

They are mostly dark Buckfast of a northern provenance originally, or carnica.

Two pictures attached for you to look at. Taken on a stock sourcing and supplier checking trip in 2014. Not black bees for sure, but nice stock.

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## Calum

Wow big number of imports, kind of sad as it is a direct indicator that the Uk beekeepers are not able to provide for themselves. Right enough you desperately need to become self sufficient or Uk bees will ever be victims. 


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## Calum

> That's is not 'taking it seriously'......................that is a tragedy. Officialdom gone mad. Surely they could at least have allowed them to return to source.


Not at all. They would not let them in, and could not let them back out (I guess the Italians would not let them back) short of taking up beekeeping not much else to be done. To call it a tragedy is OTT letting 80 infected colonies (regardless from what) continue would be an idiotic tragedy!


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## Calluna4u

So what were they infected with? Any wiping out of bees for no good reason other than 'a problem with their papers' is very sad to me. If it was colonies on combs and they were carrying either of the foulbroods fair enough.

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## Calluna4u

> Right enough you desperately need to become self sufficient or Uk bees will ever be victims.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Will never happens. A few folk get the idea we can on the basis of seasons like 2014 when almost anything would mate and lay, at least up till late July. Been quite a few rather smug answers about how easy it had been for beekeeper x or y, so why should we all not do it.

Weather is the main thing. For two successive years we did not get a single queen mated out of around 1000 between the end of the first week of May and the second week of July. Result was a lot of drone layers and queens that failed in the coming winter. We can do our best but unfortunately in many years we end up with a sadly high number of substandard matings, leading to substandard colonies in spring. When that wind off the North Sea gets going you just do not get enough days warm enough to get the job done.

Like I said in another post...if it was truly a viable option in the UK the gap would have been filled long ago. We will be doing what we can, but it just cannot be relied upon.

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## drumgerry

Interested to know which years your matings were so catastrophic Calluna.  Even here in Speyside we've not had such a disastrous year in my time here which is 11 years this year.  Not a single queen mated out of 1000?  

And as to the lack of self sufficiency of UK beekeepers commercial or not.  Why bother making the effort if all you have to do is click a couple of screens and a few days later a queen turns up.  We'd soon find a way to be self sufficient if imports were stopped.  Any commercial beekeepers (not aimed at you Calluna as I know you're trying to set up a queen breeding programme for your operation) who can't deal with that can go the way of the dodo as far as I'm concerned.

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## drumgerry

And another thing.....if it takes 20,000 packages to fill the demand maybe there are some unrealistic expectations going on here.  Perhaps people who want bees need to be patient and get them locally.  The commercial guys can breed their own or devil take the hindmost.

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## Jon

The main driver is that it is cheaper to buy queens or buy packages in mainland Europe somewhere than producing the same thing locally.
Guaranteed good weather and cheap labour would be the main factors.
Bee imports have been happening to a greater or lesser extent in the British isles for around 100 years, maybe a bit more.
Before that the resident population of UK bees managed to survive and reproduce without imports or without any scare stories about inbreeding.
The current fad for keeping bees and 'save the bee' is what drives a lot of this.
I dare say it will pass when the press realize that bees are not about to become extinct in about 4 years.

If you rear queens in Southern Europe you likely have a season of 6 or 7 months whereas we have 3 or 4.
You should still be able to average over 2 queens per Apidea/mating nuc per season in the UK.

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## Bumble

> .....if it takes 20,000 packages to fill the demand maybe there are some unrealistic expectations going on here.  Perhaps people who want bees need to be patient and get them locally.


I don't know how many beekeeping associations there are (>300 on mainland UK? inc BBKA and other groups), but if each one trains somewhere between 20 and 40 new beekeepers each year, and each new beekeeper wants to taketwo colonies into winter it's a lot of colonies. Then add in beekeepers who want or need to replace losses without waiting for a swarm, and the bee farmers whose livelihoods depend on having active colonies.

My association was insanely busy collecting swarms last year, we also have a queen rearing group, but even so there were still names on the 'want bees' list at the end of the season.

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## Calluna4u

Its considerably more complex than that.

Its not just cheaper thats the issue, otherwise our good friend in Cyprus would have no market, as would be the case for the NZ stock.

Its that they are available at all, and like it or not, very suitable bees for most UK settings, in no way inferior to local stock. Availability date is also very important if you want to do this commercially. Other than in ones and twos to amateurs, there is NO MARKET after the start of August, and only a minor market in July, so earliness of availability is also an important factor.

Local bred you just cannot plan, as arrival dates slip away, quantities are never what you ordered unless they are very tiny. Believe me, I have tried to buy UK on a number of occasions for a variety of reasons and it was always a catalogue of problems. June orders being delayed and turning up on my doormat in August and even September. These were tiny orders too, just experiments, looking for good stock that would enhance our operation, maybe a maximum of 20 queens.

I do not know what Peter Little raises at Exmoor, but the other leading queen rearer I know of in the UK only rises 1500 a year in SE England, and even he considers it very risky and does not claim over 2 per year from his mating boxes. Also, the more successful guys are not using Amm.

Before about 150 years ago (imports were frequent as far back as the 1880s, and some had been earlier) we lived in a very different world. Yes the bees existed, but as for inbreeding? No-one knows what bottlenecks they had gone through as it was a largely unresearched subject and bees too closely mated were probably just marked down as 'not doing well'. its a subject that is on our radar today simply because we know a lot more about it than back then.

However.....I completely agree that the stories about the demise of the bee are greatly exaggerated. Far from a collapse in colony numbers there are actually probably more colonies in the UK today than a decade ago.

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## Calluna4u

Not got my notes to hand here, but I think it was 2011 and 2012. Note that I did not say we got NO queens mated those years, just not between those dates. It rained almost every day and we were trying to get in and out of bee sites in cold muddy conditions, and even had to have a Unimog rescued on a couple of occasions. 2011 was a little less bad than the year that followed. Many of the virgins were just too old to make good queens once they did mate. It was carnage on drones for a few days in July, then many laid ok, at least for a while, but new queens were trying to supercede on the heather, which is always a bad thing. Too many old queens, too many bad queens, not enough young bees, and the terrible losses in spring 2013 followed on.

Even some Speyside beekeepers came down to collect packages that year, claiming virtually no bees left and many of the rest weak.

Also....some are happy buying 'local' nucs for 130-140 pounds a time feeling they are 'doing the right thing'. Are you SURE, unless from a local amateur, what you are getting? Some vendors are getting package bees in to meet demand, putting them on combs, then selling them on after a discrete interval, rebadged as UK bees. (also often divided in half as well btw with a queen added to the qls half)

For the numbers of queens needed it is not actually an option to just click a couple of buttons and get what you want. Maybe for ones or twos yes, often from resellers rather than breeders. Most good breeders are fully booked up from about September of the previous year, sometimes as late as Christmas. Besides, we would not get the type of bee we want just by random purchase from whoever had queens available. We will breed our own ( we always did anyway in splits etc rather than in mating boxes which is actually supplementary to our basic work) as both a safety net and to get a bee that will get us a proper harvest.

Imports are unlikely ever to be stopped. There is no concensus for that despite the prevalence of views on these forums, which are by their very nature slanted more towards the anti import side of the debate, as they are the ones with the strong feelings and the motivation to express them. Even if it were to be banned they will still come in illegally, and have done so for a long time.

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## Calum

I think part of your problem is selling colonies in summer/autumn in Germany a Beek doing that would be run out of his association.. There are a number of basic things that are obviously not getting done right. If experienced beeks overwinter their colonies for sale the loss rate would be much lower. A noob starting in April/May has time (and should) to make 2-3 new colonies before winter so can take higher losses due to own inexperience.....


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## prakel

Said this before so I know that there's little agreement on this forum but, contrary to my original thinking on the subject, I don't see how anything that's been overwintered can ever hit the market at a competitive price. It's not the costs and possible risks that are involved but the loss of crop a couple of months later. 

As others have mentioned, we have a relatively short window to get a honey crop so once the 'surplus' queens and nucs have got through winter it's only a couple of months 'till they could be filling our own supers and adding real value to the apiary. Of course, the weather might be against us through the summer and that, so long as they've been kept strong, might be when there is a value in selling those 'surplus' overwintered nucs. On balance (so long as it's not through the necessity of needing to raise early cash) I reckon that the best place for overwintered bees is undoubtedly in our own boxes.

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## Jon

Calluna
Spring 2013 was a disaster but more to do with the winter starting about the 8th September with temperatures well under 10c for the next 7 months.
There was no nectar or pollen came in at all from the ivy that year as it was too cold for bees to fly. The ivy flowered about 2-3 weeks later than normal.
Queens actually mated ok here in summer 2012 although it did seem to rain a lot.

I disagree that there is no market for queens from July onwards.
I think we are talking about different scale of markets and maybe you are thinking of supplying some of the resellers in larger quantities.
There are people who want to work with native bees and are keen to try out a few queens but there are many who just want a queen which will head up a good tempered colony.
I also got enquiries from people who lost queens after MAQS treatment in August.

A large part of the demand is driven by beginners champing at the bit to get bees in April. many of them are not even aware that there are different subspecies of bee available. They just want bees and will take whatever is offered. Some of them would be better waiting to get a bit more experience via an association mentoring programme alongside a nuc supplied through the association a bit later in the season.

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## Calluna4u

> Calluna
> Spring 2013 was a disaster but more to do with the winter starting about the 8th September with temperatures well under 10c for the next 7 months.
> There was no nectar or pollen came in at all from the ivy that year as it was too cold for bees to fly. The ivy flowered about 2-3 weeks later than normal.
> Queens actually mated ok here in summer 2012 although it did seem to rain a lot.


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_We were predicting the heavy losses as early as September here that year. The queens, especially the black ones, had shut down in late July due to the incessant poor weather, and there really were not enough young bees to see them through. we never get ivy here anyway, so for us at least that is not a point of difference with other years. Nothing at all mated in August either (and 2014 was the same, as we sat under the remnant of Hurricane Bertha for three weeks). We move almost everything to the heather between approx. 7th July and the end of July, and requeening on the heather is real Russian roulette as the bees are relatively nasty there, so late virgins in the migrated hives, and late established splits do tend to fail._




> I disagree that there is no market for queens from July onwards.


_If someone is seeking to do this as a business, and you will NEVER meet demand unless they do, the market late summer and early autumn is insufficient. Would be interested as to just how many of those people needing late queens actually got the colony through in a viable state. In our experience any colony not queenright and settled by the second half of July (and kept static btw, not migrated) stands a chance of wintering that drops off sharply the nearer to September you get. It needs a lot of tlc to bring a late establish colony through._ 




> I think we are talking about different scale of markets and maybe you are thinking of supplying some of the resellers in larger quantities.


_I NEVER handle bought in queens after 1st July (ok...did it once at the desperate request of one friend) and decline to sell any on to resellers after that date. We are plainly talking very different markets, though I do get a lot of amateurs coming here wanting to buy queens especially, but also packages._




> There are people who want to work with native bees and are keen to try out a few queens but there are many who just want a queen which will head up a good tempered colony.


_I have no issues with either of these points._




> I also got enquiries from people who lost queens after MAQS treatment in August.


_That's is a hard treatment on the bees. Queen loss at elevated levels seems to go hand in hand with its use._




> A large part of the demand is driven by beginners champing at the bit to get bees in April. many of them are not even aware that there are different subspecies of bee available. They just want bees and will take whatever is offered. Some of them would be better waiting to get a bit more experience via an association mentoring programme alongside a nuc supplied through the association a bit later in the season.


_Many go diving into bees before they are really ready. When people come visiting our bees they often remark how gentle they are (talking our Amm type stuff here), but I suspect most have no idea what truly gentle bees actually are. I do not think them especially gentle, though for that they were at least comparable with the Galtee stock I experimented with. Most (not all! have made one or two real errors) of the stock I have imported is considerably more gentle than the best Amm I have ever seen, and as such can make a very easy bee for a learner. I still recommend, especially in the more wet and windy parts, to requeen as soon as you can with tough stock, but they may need more experience handling it._

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## Calluna4u

> Said this before so I know that there's little agreement on this forum but, contrary to my original thinking on the subject, I don't see how anything that's been overwintered can ever hit the market at a competitive price. It's not the costs and possible risks that are involved but the loss of crop a couple of months later. 
> 
> As others have mentioned, we have a relatively short window to get a honey crop so once the 'surplus' queens and nucs have got through winter it's only a couple of months 'till they could be filling our own supers and adding real value to the apiary. Of course, the weather might be against us through the summer and that, so long as they've been kept strong, might be when there is a value in selling those 'surplus' overwintered nucs. On balance (so long as it's not through the necessity of needing to raise early cash) I reckon that the best place for overwintered bees is undoubtedly in our own boxes.


Spot on. Unless you are working as a charity you have to factor in the value of the crop you would expect to get minus the costs involved in getting it. There may be other pressures to sell however, such as lack of equipment or preservation of domestic bliss....

In many parts of Europe, where as an example there is acacia, the price of bees in the period leading up to the crop can be as high as double the price immediately after it. Price can half in 2 weeks. You can get some very cheap bees after the acacia as the bees are very strong, swarming is imminent, and selling off some bees, almost as a type of swarm control, is a very viable option.

To a lesser extent the same forces are at play in the UK. Very few want to sell colonies before the main flows, and bees bought towards the end of the season are a real gamble.

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## mbc

This thread is teasing out some good arguments, what I don't get is why there seems to be a case that because cheap bees are available elsewhere bee farmers are automatically entitled to get their hands on them whatever the cost to the larger beekeeping community.
I worry about being too villageist in my views and that perhaps I should accept we live in a small world where free(ish) trade is essential to our continued well-being, but then I think of a well established network of locally adapted colonies quietly going about their beneficial business suddenly thrown into confusion for generations due to a pile of foreign bees being artificially dumped into their environment for someone's short term profit and I'm back to being committed in my belief that we're all better off long term if we draw up the drawbridge. Commercial beekeepers would mostly survive, practices would have to alter but any beefarmer worth his salt should be able to produce surplus nucs to overwinter.
It's down to beliefs really, and as soon as you don't give a monkey's about your drones adversely effecting others then masses of bees from further south at little cost and at a convenient time of year makes sense.

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## Jon

> .Many go diving into bees before they are really ready. When people come visiting our bees they often remark how gentle they are (talking our Amm type stuff here), but I suspect most have no idea what truly gentle bees actually are.


I don,t think the best Amm is quite as gentle as the best carnica or Buckfast judging by some of the videos I have seen on youtube but they are not far off. The reason for that is likely that it is not seen as a commercial bee in many quarters and heavy selection for the desirable traits such as low aggression has not taken place. The Galtee stuff is very good natured.
Some of my colonies are more gentle than others but it is very rare for me to have a colony I have to requeen due to bad temper. It can happen sometimes with a supersedure queen.
Where you really notice the difference is with the beginners who bring in a Buckfast or a carnica to an area area where the background drones are predominantly AMM or near native.
You might just get away with good temper in the F1 but go beyond that and you could be dealing with something very difficult to handle. Not always, but very often in my experience.
A total beginner I know bought a buckfast nuc and a Carnica nuc mail order from Paynes a few years ago.
He had never kept bees before and had no training.
Issue one was he placed them just over a mile away from our association mating site which was not helpful.
As happens with a lot of beginners, he lost swarms later that summer and was making increase from casts he collected.
Next thing I heard he had officials from the Council at his house as the neighbours were complaining about getting stung.
That was first generation on from bees sold as Carnica and Buckfast.
The attraction for the beginner is gentle stock but if the colony swarms and requeens itself, which it will do as we are talking about beginners, then there are likely problems ahead.
One solution is to keep requeening with pure race queens but a better one might be to get involved with the local queen rearing group.
This guy joined our queen rearing group when he became aware of it and could not believe how gentle the bees were compared to what he had. He had already got the idea that bees need to be worked in a full space suit with guantlets up to the armpits.

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