# General beekeeping > Scaling up and marketing >  Grow, or die!

## Neonach

As the only beekeeper here in this group of islands and with extremes of environment - wild flowers and heather to die for, but alas very windy! - it's all down to me. It's extremely unlikely that escaped bees will survive a winter, thus no feral honey bees, and certainly i've never seen any.   So there's s no wider pool of honeybees to complicate breeding or disease/pest control, but also no help either. The only drones are my drones, and certainly only my queens. This makes beekeeping extremely precarious for a beginner starting with one or two colonies!

I've come to the conclusion that the only way to make this sustainable is to try and rapidly grow to a minimum say 15 or 16 hives at 3 or 4 apiaries, each 3 or more miles apart. (I can use my own house/garden and the croft for two of these, and I've got a few borrowed sites in mind also).  Likewise, I would like to have three or four bloodlines at each apiary. Where did I get these numbers from? Umm, well, just thinking about it really, based on the admittedly very limited experience to date. 

All books and reference materials I've have or have come across implicitly assume a location where there are other bees in the district: I have absolutely nothing to go on, other than comparison with Andrew Abraham in Colonsay: I was one of his first students back in 2009 and greatly inspired by what I saw and learnt, but my situation is more difficult not only because of a more severe environment, but also because since he started we've seen the onset of varroa and a huge inward migration of non-native bees.

Going back to the numbers, my idea is to get into a situation where I have sufficient numbers and diversity at each apiary to ensure good mating, and sufficient apiaries to avoid the risk of total wipe-out.  Beekeeping here is expensive (transport costs for purchases, no-one to share equipment with, higher requirement for winter feeding), so I need to scale up to quite a good size to cover costs, never mind a modest return for my efforts!

Selling is not really a problem.  Neonachina and I already have a wee shop in the garden where as well as the handspinning and weaving we sell fresh produce, preserves made from our own-grown fruit etc. Honey - the only honey available in the islands here  - would absolutely fly off the shelf. I think almost everyone who sees the hives asks if there's honey for sale! Oh I wish!

My short term plan is to get to next spring with more healthy hives than I had this spring, and to be in a position to double the number during 2012. I also want to buy a spinner in 2012 (or possibly alternatively to sell cut comb?). Lots of money needed for that, when it's very much in short supply.

Any thoughts or advice very welcome. 

PS: I have no experience of bees other than Amm, and introducing another type would nearly double my work and make life very complicated. But I can't help but feel that Amm should logically be the best suited to conditions here. Or am I tying one hand behind my back?

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## Jimbo

Hi Jonathan,
If you click on Forum at the top of the page and then look at the last post. You will see there are other beekeepers in the Western isles you may want to contact by e-mail

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## Jon

One strategy to get around the potential  inbreeding problem is to buy in one new queen per year which is unrelated to your stock and do all your grafting from that one, letting the virgins mate with your existing drones.
I have largely done that this year as I swapped one of my queens for an unrelated one last summer and have grafted from it.
I have requeened about 7 or 8 colonies with its daughters grafted in May and the brood pattern is very good showing no sign of pepperpot brood associated with inbreeding.
In an ideal world you would want to get a local queen from a disease free area.

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## gavin

Jonathan

There are enough beekeepers on Lewis to have formed a local group.  There is also a thriving group on Orkney, and Shetland has one long established beekeeper and maybe a couple more.

Lewis has Varroa unfortunately (too many unwise introductions). 

There are also beekeepers in Wester Ross and Sutherland, including on the north coast.

Some of these folk have long-established local stock, others have had imports of other types which are still in the mix locally.  So for you Amm is certainly not tying hands behind backs, but realistically the only strain likely to thrive in your environment, and even then only stock adapted to the rigours of a windswept coastal environment.

Reading your post one thing that strikes me is that you will need a bigger population to be sustainable in genetic terms. As the queen stores diversity in her spermatheca, you have one generation to build up numbers from each queen to capture that diversity.  

On the other hand some of the people who keep bees in remote areas keep relatively few colonies and seem to get away with it.

good luck anyway

Gavin

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## Neonach

> Hi Jonathan,
> If you click on Forum at the top of the page and then look at the last post. You will see there are other beekeepers in the Western isles you may want to contact by e-mail


Thanks Jimbo, not sure whether you appreciate that Oban is nearer to us than Stornoway - in miles and cost if not quite time. And they speak funny up there too - you'd almost think you were in N Wales. Fancy the weather being masculine in Gaelic - here in Uist it is feminine. Tells you a lot about the weather there in Lewis and Harris!

I've yet to hear of any serious bee-keeping in Lewis: All I hear of are the folk who have started up with a hive or two and then the bees have died out and they've given up.  Just a few years ago, one apiary was wiped out by the varroa that came to Lewis with the bees, but usually folk blame the weather. However if there's anyone plodding away quiety and industriously at proper-beekeeping with bees actually suited to the conditions - ie Amm - then I'll be glad to hear from them.

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## Neonach

Thanks Gavin for a very helpful reply.  A long journey to Skye (actually nearer and cheaper than to Lewis) is worthwhile to work with a serious and well-established Amm apiarist.  I'm wondering whether to join the SBA Skye and Lochalsh branch might open doors. Not that I'm not looking for freebies from anyone - I must stress that: I'll be happy to pay for good queens (or better still nucs), or exchange queens if anyone think mine are good enough.

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## Jimbo

Hi Jonathan, 
I am well aware of the distances as I actually got married on Solas beach and visit the islands most years to visit friends. It is a pity that the Lewis beekeepers have varroa. As I see it you have two main challenges. The first is the weather as it can be a bit windy up there. The second is obtaining varroa free bees. There are a number of people and groups with Amm and still have no varroa. Andrew Abraham is one obvious source. Margie Ramsay in Wester Ross may be be able to help and the other source is the Island of Man beekeepers who supplied varroa free Amm to Chris Connelly for his pesticide research at Dundee. You could also try contacting BIBBA to see if they know of any other varroa free Amm areas. As Gavin has said if you can source more Amm to keep the genetics sweet then the way to make increase is by grafting as Jon has stated

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## gavin

If I was setting up in an isolated area I'd be keen to keep the Amm pure - in which case the Isle of Man and some of the larger islands are suspect.  You could still bring in Amm from such places but would have to be careful about checking out the stocks first.  Another way may be to exchange breeding material  (eggs, mated queens in cages) by post.  That way you could even source from a Varroa area - if you really knew what you were doing and could check for stowaways.

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## Jimbo

You are right Gavin. I would want to see the Morph plot at least from any queen I was purchasing from these areas. A mated queen from a varroa area is high risk. I don't think I would want to be the person responsible for the spreading of varroa into a varroa free area by selling a queen.

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## Neonach

> If I was setting up in an isolated area I'd be keen to keep the Amm pure - in which case the Isle of Man and some of the larger islands are suspect.  You could still bring in Amm from such places but would have to be careful about checking out the stocks first.  Another way may be to exchange breeding material  (eggs, mated queens in cages) by post.  That way you could even source from a Varroa area - if you really knew what you were doing and could check for stowaways.


At the risk of straying off topic, I can see in me a temptation niggling away to cut corners and start with a different type of bee; but Gavin you're helping me quash that and stick to the original idea, which I'm sure is right, which is to keep only pure and disease-free Amm.  Veering back on topic on how to scale up quicky without compromising on quality, I am interested in your suggestion of importing using eggs - I'd not heard this. I suppose that there is also AI, but whilst I know how to do that with sheep and cows, I can scarcely imagine how it is done with bees. These options have the potential to source material from further afield (they will I assume tolerate a longer postal route than live bees) without greatly increasing cost. (All 2st/2nd class mail and most parcels come by air in unpressurized plane - I'm not certain this is okay for eggs, but I'm even less sure about live bees!). I would think the first concern would be varroa eggs in the cells, and then mites on the pupae, and this may actually be relatively easy to check for. I have next to no knowledge of how other 'conditions' are propogated and could be monitored for, but I would have though initial isolation of imports would be a good idea - I could certainly manage that by having a separate temporary apiary for that purpose. However this is the detail: the first thing is to find a willing pure Amm supplier of either queens or eggs (the latter presumably as supersedure cells).  I really needed those two nucs I ordered from Colonsay last year for supply this: with queen mating likely to occur here within the next four weeks, it's not _yet_ too late for this year, but I've heard nothing from Andrew and with him so busy I'm reluctant to contact him. There's no doubt I need other sources, so any help in getting in contact with suppliers - or where to enquire - would be very welcome.

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## gavin

OK, reality check!  Raising queens from eggs is possible, but not something for year one.  You need to get to know your bees and beekeeping a bit more before making your beekeeping more complex than it has to be.  If Andrew (he reads the forum from time to time by the way) is prepared to honour you with more of his stock, then go with that for now.  Inbreeding is a risk but if you are getting two more stocks from him them start with that.  You will need to ensure that they build up enough to survive the winter.  If you currently have one colony then you can still raise nucs from that one, but would need to widen the genepool for the next generation.  However your bigger and more immediate problem might be simply having enough drones and enough good flying days for mating.  If I remember right the Shetland beekeeper resorts to AI to get his queens mated.

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## Neonach

Thanks Gavin, maybe I'm just letting myself get over-anxious, and what's driving that right now is - as you so perceptively point out - the limited good flying days - as in good for mating, rather than foraging. Thankfully September here tends to be almost as good as August, if not as warm. Over the past 2 1/2 yrs of beekeeping I do feel I've got to understand the bees' behaviour and needs quite well, but there's so much  to learn!!!!!  I've tended to focus on queen-raising and mating, and only recently have I realized that of course the key to genetic diversity is at least if not more a matter of drones than queens, hence my interest in acquiring nucs rather than just queens. Thanks for your patience and advice.

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## lindsay s

Hello Jonathan 
Good for you for giving beekeeping ago in such an exposed location. I have kept bees in Orkney for the last 30 years with varying degrees of success so it can be done. 
Its very easy to view beekeeping through ROSE TINTED GLASSES especially in your first few years. I suggest its best to have a few strong colonies and build up slowly. Splits and nucs made up in exposed areas can take along time to build up and in Orkney at the moment we have a few beginners struggling with bees which barely made it through the winter. So if that means having to unite colonies in the autumn or spring it will be for the best in the long term. Instead of doubling up each year why not try for a 50% increase. With strong colonies and the right weather conditions youll find out the honey potential in your area and that will help you decide if its worth expanding.
I wouldnt get hung up about pure Amm my bees are black mongrels with some Amm traits and theyre OK. Some final words of caution, we have a beekeeper who took 80 hives of bees into Orkney and he had great plans for queen breeding and honey production but partly due to our weather he quickly downsized by ¾.  
Lindsay

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## Trog

Wise words, Lindsay!

Where did anyone get 80 varroa-free hives?  Or was this some time ago?

I think anyone keeping bees 'on the margins' as we do needs to be able to read the bees and know how to intervene when necessary.  Books written for beekeepers in England or even the Scottish Central Belt are only slightly helpful!  After 20+ years husband and I are still learning!  No two years are the same.

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## Neonach

Thanks for your helpful advice Lindsay - and that from others too. I hope I'm not trying to be too ambitious - with great plans that will never come to pass. I think I'm trying to be realistic, trying to find a practical balance between too small to be worthwhile/sustainable, and too big for my experience and skill - or what the local honey market will support.  Incidentally I have myself seen in 2009 and 2010 how long it takes here to build a nuc up into a full brood box. This year is different: there is a truly astonishing quantity of pollen here this year (eg, clover everywhere though previously quite scarce), and there's been no gap to speak of at all. But more realistically, though I might aim to double each year for the next few years, I will in truth be very happy indeed to actually achieve a net increase of just the 50% you advise, after uniting in late summer and winter losses.  Regarding the black mongrels you mention, as a breeder of pedigree (black Hebridean) sheep I know that what is defined as pure-bred is a totally artificial concept. If as I suspect you're saying that I might be as well to accept sources that are closely conformed to type (rather than true to type), then I heartily agree. More important that the physical characteristics and traits are strongly Amm-ish than text-book pure. Anyone reading this who can supply nucs to that 'standard' and disease/pest free, next year but ideally in next few weeks, please get in touch! Thanks again.

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## lindsay s

> Where did anyone get 80 varroa-free hives?  Or was this some time ago?


The bees came from near Fort Augustus Inverness-shire back in 2002 or 2003. The area was varroa free at the time. They were quarantined on another island over the winter and moved to our mainland the next summer. They did really well in the first year (loads of honey) but after that the weather wasnt so good and queen rearing early in the summer was a non-starter. Quite a few hives were sold to beginners

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## Poly Hive

I happen to know the beekeeper on Shetland as in an times past supplied him with some bees too. Yes he does some AI but mainly (or last I talked to him) relied on natural mating mostly. If anyone wants to think along the lines of egg transfer then why not give it a go? I am happy to make a phone call or two to help. 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

Neonach, I don't think you should buy ANY stock without Andrew's knowledge!  According to my rough measurements using a ruler, the bees Andrew keeps near his home are within flying distance of you - regardless of where your hives are on Oronsay.
Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... but also because since he started we've seen the onset of varroa and a huge inward migration of non-native bees. ...


I don't understand what you're trying to say in the sentence above, Neonach.  There is no varroa on Colonsay and only AMM bees. What 'inward migration' are you talking about and, if it exists, how does that affect you?
Kitta

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## gavin

Kitta - Neonach hasn't been around for a few months, and if I remember right he said that he wouldn't be back.  May have been a burst of forum spam that caused that at a time when I was distracted and didn't clear it up fast enough, or maybe he's decided that beekeeping isn't for him.

I wouldn't worry about his bees affecting Andrew.  He lives over 100km to the north of Colonsay.  Last we heard about a year ago he was having difficulty with the mating of all of his queens, and was speculating again on perhaps trying something other than Amm - which would be a mistake in my opinion and against the opinion he heard here.  Hopefully he'll return for advice if he does continue beekeeping.

His comments on 'inward migration' probably refer to the other islands of Lewis and perhaps Skye, which I know less about.

Gavin

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Gavin.  I did not notice the thread was started long ago!  If Neonach lives north of Colonsay then he can't be living on Oronsay, can he - or are there two places called 'Oronsay'?  I'm glad to hear Andrew's bees are still safe.
Kitta

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## gavin

Not sure why he cites 'Oronsay' but I know that he's a long way from Oronsay on Colonsay.

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## marion.orca

Could be a reference to Isle Oronsay which is the small tidal island linked to Colonsay by a tidal causeway ? Would perhaps make more sense then.

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## Mellifera Crofter

No - that's where I thought he was, but Gavin said he is a safe 100km north of Colonsay.
K

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## gavin

More than 100km. More like ... oh, best not be too precise, but a long way from Colonsay. 

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