# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Oxalic Acid Pan Evaporator 12 Volt

## gwizzie

Hi everyone, has anyone used or use these Oxalic Acid Pan Evaporator 12 Volt from freebay ??

$(KGrHqV,!jUE8ENc89JHBPEdgYk+iw~~60_14.JPG

are they ok to use ?

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## deanrpwaacs

Is it a micro one ? 😊

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## gwizzie

NO just small pic another pic was too big for the forum LOL....

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## busybeephilip

Well, they work, use a bike battery as they are lighter.  You just need to be aware of the safety requirements to protect your own health.

I made one of these exactly the same design but now I'm going to do another one based on the sublimox design which means you dont need to let it cool down between using.  The sublimox costs a fortune but I reckon one could be bodged up for a few squid.

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## gwizzie

> The sublimox costs a fortune but I reckon one could be bodged up for a few squid.


keep me posted please if you do, just wish I had the know how to make one :Frown:

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## EK.Bee

I invested a modest amount in one of these last year & it worked OK
I had to remove the plug & replace with two croc clips

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SALE-Vapor...item4ade57421e

Don't stint on your respirator or gloves to use with it

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## gavin

> Don't stint on your respirator or gloves to use with it


And unplug the hoover  :Wink: .

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## busybeephilip

OK,  I can see a set of photographs being born !

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## gwizzie

> OK,  I can see a set of photographs being born !


smiley-face-thumbs-up-cartoon-yTkeza64c.png

one like this is what I would like

20150420-13-8-300x300.jpg

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## busybeephilip

kep, thats what i have in mind

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## gwizzie

> kep, thats what i have in mind


excellent look forward to seeing it when it's done   :Wink:

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## mbc

> Well, they work, use a bike battery as they are lighter.  You just need to be aware of the safety requirements to protect your own health.
> 
> I made one of these exactly the same design but now I'm going to do another one based on the sublimox design which means you dont need to let it cool down between using.  The sublimox costs a fortune but I reckon one could be bodged up for a few squid.


I've been playing around with a forced air design, a heated pan in a plastic clip box with a fan one end and a spout the other, it's not brilliant yet, it works for a few times but the heaters keep giving out. I'll try tinkering some more when time allows and possibly change from trying to use ptc  heaters to something more reliable. I bought a gas and battery powered heat gun but it doesn't get up to subliming temperature on its own but it works well at forcing warm air through the box. It's all in a box in the cellar at the moment waiting for me to dig it out for those stoned r and d winter afternoons.

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## gwizzie

> I've been playing around with a forced air design, a heated pan in a plastic clip box with a fan one end and a spout the other, it's not brilliant yet, it works for a few times but the heaters keep giving out. I'll try tinkering some more when time allows and possibly change from trying to use ptc  heaters to something more reliable. I bought a gas and battery powered heat gun but it doesn't get up to subliming temperature on its own but it works well at forcing warm air through the box. It's all in a box in the cellar at the moment waiting for me to dig it out for those stoned r and d winter afternoons.


Im no expert and have NO knowledge of these kind of things BUT the one that you can buy in my 1st post heats it up and then the mist/smoke fills the hive, would it not be a good idea to use one of them but build a container around the base with a spout on the front and a cap on top so that the pressure builds up and the smoke is forced out the spout ??  

Just an idea ?

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## mbc

My plan was to have a very mobile unit that could do lots of hives quickly, because diesel heater plugs (like the one you bought) need  a fairly substancial housing for it, it will take time and battery to get going. I'm trying a very light pan that heats up very quickly without dumping the battery too much, I may have to go the way you suggest though if I cannot find a reliable lightweight heater. Also, forced air will be much quicker than vapour pressure alone.

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## SDM

Forced air may be quicker but I doubt it unless the air source was heated. We only need to get the vapour into the hive, the bees will fan it around. I think it would be over engineering a bit as sublimation has plenty energy of its own.
That said mine cost a fiver and took about 60secs to build and is  probably the simplest way, but heh, it works.

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## gwizzie

> That said mine cost a fiver and took about 60secs to build and is probably the simplest way, but heh, it works.


please share then ? pictures and how you made it

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## alancooper

The lightest, cheapest (and effective) home-made job I have seen was a beer bottle top soldered onto a strip of copper piping heated by a salvaged car cigarette heater/lighter, powered by a 12v car battery.

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## SDM

£3.99 12v drinks heater with a copper end cap tapped through the coils(they spread nicely to fit). It cools enough between hives to reload it straight away. This is its 3rd winter and I use it on any swarms taken, so its holding up well.IMG_20150718_200002_zpssayxlkmn.jpg

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## gwizzie

> £3.99 12v drinks heater with a copper end cap tapped through the coils(they spread nicely to fit). It cools enough between hives to reload it straight away. This is its 3rd winter and I use it on any swarms taken, so its holding up well.IMG_20150718_200002_zpssayxlkmn.jpg


Thanks SDM, just wondering if it could be made into one of these http://www.icko-apiculture.com/en/sublimox.html

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## SDM

With the £250 you would have left over, you could put one in every hive .
I've not seen a Sublimox up close, but I doubt there is any way a heater and fan is £250 worth of anyone's money.

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## gwizzie

> With the £250 you would have left over, you could put one in every hive .
> I've not seen a Sublimox up close, but I doubt there is any way a heater and fan is £250 worth of anyone's money.


I haven't either but not sure if there is a fan in it having looked at some of the videos (might be wrong) Humm just thought of someone I know who is very good at this sort of thing  :Wink:  he is a tool maker to trade and has ALL the gear. I will have a word with him to see if he can make something for me as he keeps bees too........ I'll keep you posted....

One quick question the drinks heater how hot does it get, as it's not producing that other stuff ? that you can produce from oxalic acid ??? is it formic acid ? (sorry newbie)

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## SDM

i dont know what temp it could get to, but I've never understood what stops the OA subliming at the correct temp. Why would it still be there as the temp got higher ? That said , to avoid over heating I wait 10 secs after it starts smoking, then unplug it for a few secs before reattaching and letting it finish. It seems to be a non existent problem.

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## mbc

> It seems to be a non existent problem.


Yes, possibly cooked up by people trying to sell expensive OAV equipment.

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## gwizzie

Well my drinks warmer is ordered  :Wink:  after seeing this video, just need to see my friend to see if he can make a cup for it with a spout and a lid. 




I have looked at the SUBLIMOX - PROFESSIONAL APF and can see no evidence of a fan being used, I think that it is a buildup of pressure just like a kettle.
55a8c4a19d582_Sublimoxdtail.jpg

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## SDM

Which would explain why they could have temp. Issue's if its under any pressure.
I'm with the redneck on this(never thought I'd say that) anything more is over thinking it.
I love techy kit for my hobbies but so many things in Beekeeping get massive price hikes for no reason . The one that annoys me most is the " polyhive repair"  that everyone sells but with the picture removed(because its just polyfilla available at half the price elsewhere) sales tactics like that are a pet hate.
Just think of all the sales of expensive Varroa treatments(not to mention the queen sales) at this time of year that won't happen when everyone realises they can treat 1000 hives for £15 and watch their bees coming and going like nothing has happened a minute later.

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## SDM

> Well my drinks warmer is ordered  after seeing this video, just need to see my friend to see if he can make a cup for it with a spout and a lid. 
> 
> I have looked at the SUBLIMOX - PROFESSIONAL APF and can see no evidence of a fan being used, I think that it is a buildup of pressure just like a kettle.
> 55a8c4a19d582_Sublimoxdtail.jpg


I just assumed there must be a fan considering the size and cost of the unit. Be careful if you are adding a cap and spout, remember these heaters are only 200-250w. You either want something that does not conduct heat or use something like fire rope to insulate the cap from the heater bowl. If you add more metal to the bowl you will hugely increase the time it takes to start smoking(I tried with threaded plumbing fittings).

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## busybeephilip

The unit stays hot all the time, the acid goes into a heat resistant plastic lid sealed with o ring, unit is kept upside down, stick into a hive then turn it around, the acid falls onto the hot plate and instantly sublimes, the pressure pushes it down the tube into the hive - easy pezy

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## gwizzie

Thanks for all the comments guys, cant wait until mine arrives now and get my friend on the job to see what he comes up with if he has time!!!




> The unit stays hot all the time,


yes if you watch the videos that are out there you can see that they are upside down then flipped over to get the OA to fall onto the already hot plate.

I was thinking about getting the tablets of AO has anyone used them ? do they burn the same or take longer!

Ops almost forgot what is the best mask to get for doing this ?

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## SDM

3m 5203 mag, is the way to go.
They're about £15 on ebay,  although personally, I use a canary.

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## gwizzie

> 3m 5203 mag, is the way to go.
> They're about £15 on ebay,  although personally, I use a canary.


Thanks but there more like £30  :EEK!:

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## SDM

£22 here but I'm sure I got mine cheaper somewhere
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-5203-OR...item3f2276422c

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## gwizzie

> £22 here but I'm sure I got mine cheaper somewhere
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-5203-OR...item3f2276422c


yep more like £25 if you add shipping as well 


> Postage: US $16.51 (approx. £10.73) International Priority Shipping to United Kingdom   | See details


but more importantly you have to know what the temp is that the drinks heater reaches and then know what the temp is that OA turns into FA I think it is ?
I don't have a way to measure the temp and don't know what the temp is before turning it into Formic acid vapor  ?

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## SDM

You only need to know that oxalic acid sublimes at a temp lower than the temp it becomes formic acid( and carbon monoxide (I think)). It sublimes first. Only if under pressure would it still be there to become FA. You'll notice none of the commercially available glow plug the vaporisers have any temp control.

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## gwizzie

> You only need to know that oxalic acid sublimes at a temp lower than the temp it becomes formic acid( and carbon monoxide (I think)). It sublimes first. Only if under pressure would it still be there to become FA. You'll notice none of the commercially available glow plug the vaporisers have any temp control.


So if I understand this correctly, you're saying that OA will vaporize before it comes FA. Also it it would not be under pressure as it's not going to be trapped for long enough. Hummmm need to look into this a bit more and see if I can find out some facts?

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## nemphlar

The change in state of any material is affected by pressure and temperature (composition or purity) the temperature of the oxalic does not change when it changes state from solid to gas so as long as there is no increase in pressure, then the temp will not be enough to form any other compounds

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## SDM

> The change in state of any material is affected by pressure and temperature (composition or purity) the temperature of the oxalic does not change when it changes state from solid to gas so as long as there is no increase in pressure, then the temp will not be enough to form any other compounds


Exactly ! In an open container it will always sublime.
You are worrying about nothing gwizzie.

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## gwizzie

> The change in state of any material is affected by pressure and temperature (composition or purity) the temperature of the oxalic does not change when it changes state from solid to gas so as long as there is no increase in pressure, then the temp will not be enough to form any other compounds


Hi thanks, now I wish I stuck in at chemistry at school LOL...

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## gwizzie

> Exactly ! In an open container it will always sublime.
> You are worrying about nothing gwizzie.


Ok get that now but if i'm going to make it like the SUBLIMOX  you plug the container with a top so you will just have a spout for the OA to get out from will this not put it under pressure ???

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOTT-resp...item280497433d
something like this one
best plan though is just stand upwind with long battery leads
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOTT-Prof...item2a52d94c2e
This is £10 and probably good enough for the job

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## SDM

Fair point,I'm not recommending you do this, but mine usually sits around my neck just in case.
Mind you, I'll probably be eligible for a "Darwin award" if they find my corpse that way.

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## Greengage

Why not just boil rhubarb leaves under the hive after all they produce oxalic acid.

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## gwizzie

> Why not just boil rhubarb leaves under the hive after all they produce oxalic acid.


Yes rhubarb and honey  :Wink:

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## Greengage

We were discussing applying Oxalic acid yesterday and opening the hives over winter to do this when someone suggested using a sheep syringe as you can set the dosage to 5ml. Clever  man..
https://www.agridirect.ie/product/clik-pouron-gun

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## fatshark

Here's a *real* OA vaporiser ... none of your 12V nonsense. 
https://youtu.be/jY3f8BzLw-k
$3500 apparently ... and about the same amount for the Api-Bioxal to run it for an afternoon  :Wink:

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## gavin

> Here's a *real* OA vaporiser ... none of your 12V nonsense. 
> https://youtu.be/jY3f8BzLw-k
> $3500 apparently ... and about the same amount for the Api-Bioxal to run it for an afternoon


Boys and their toys, eh?!  Here is the equipment I use for oxalic treatment.


Maybe I'll go high tech and high throughput one day  :Smile:

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## fatshark

That "turkey baster" looks tiny. Is it for mini-nucs?

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## Calluna4u

We get those (other makes exist too!) from the local farm merchants and I think they are about a tenner each. 5ml sheep doser. Been using them for quite a few years now.

If you are in luck they will give you one free, as some of the makers of the sheep medication give them out free to the vendors of the medication to give away with the treatment. They come in a variety of sizes, adjustable up to 5ml, 20ml, 50ml. Also have soft plastic hose that goes down into a bucket (although we use 3 litre backpacks) and a team of two people can them dose *at least* 300 hives in a full day. Two of my people came back in one day having done almost 500, though it did need me to take them out more OA solution during the day. If in any way time is money to you they are the best by far for trickling.

However...you MUST clean them out very thoroughly at the end of each day. The solution attacks the little rubber o rings in the units and they lose suction once it does. They last a lot better if give a few minutes just pumping through clean water at the days end. We regard them as a disposable item and need a couple of new ones each season at some stage.

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## madasafish

I have just made a vapouriser using a glowplug. Used scrap copper tubing cut open for the pan and old jump leads. . Total cost £2.75  (glowplug)..
Add a second hand battery, and oxalic and it's under £20..

Got gloves/mask etc. 
Works OK and heats up fine

Test next week. Photos to follow.

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## gavin

> That "turkey baster" looks tiny. Is it for mini-nucs?


More of a goldcrest/hummingbird baster?

Never mind mini-nucs, you can do individual bees if you like with one of these .... 



(allows you to miss out the queen if you worry about overdosing her)

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## gavin

A tenner seems a good price.  A quick web search found one at £19.95 +VAT with tubing included and a 2.5l backpack (enough for me) at £8.95.  GG's 50 Euro one seems a bit steep even if it is higher quality.  Don't think I've ever been to the Coupar Angus farmer's place, must give it a go.

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## Calluna4u

> A tenner seems a good price.  A quick web search found one at £19.95 +VAT with tubing included and a 2.5l backpack (enough for me) at £8.95.  GG's 50 Euro one seems a bit steep even if it is higher quality.  Don't think I've ever been to the Coupar Angus farmer's place, must give it a go.


You can do it even cheaper than that Gavin..................just come and borrow one from me.

lol...Offer subject to status (must be Gavin), terms and conditions apply. Applicants must be over the age of 18 and sign a written declaration in triplicate that the equipment will only be used to apply oxalic acid and sugar solution at pre determined concentrations for the purposes of wood bleaching only.

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## gavin

A generous offer (as always!).  A beekeeping friend (you met him at a hospital apiary visit this year) has one and we agreed to share the effort this year so I'll probably not take you up on it.  Happy to come and help though  :Smile: .

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## The Drone Ranger

> A generous offer (as always!).  A beekeeping friend (you met him at a hospital apiary visit this year) has one and we agreed to share the effort this year so I'll probably not take you up on it.  Happy to come and help though .


You should borrow one Gavin and get some lessons on running between the hives  :Smile: 
500 between 2 people pretty amazing stuff
That's 250 each in a 10 hour day 25 an hour 
That's one very 2.4 minutes

I take that long to find my hive tool  :Smile:

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## Calluna4u

That's about right. We have a 6 mins budget for full hive examinations in spring/summer, and oxalic trickling is a short and very rapid process.

In this case one goes round and opens the hives and the other applies the oxalic almost continuously. One squeeze of the trigger per seam of bees, then the other person goes back and puts the lids back on again.

They can do a site of 40 in about 30 mins. There is also travelling time between apiaries. However, in the case where they did so many in a day there were 3 sites each with over 100 hives on their run.


to Gavin....probably not doing oxalic this year. Two reasons. Firstly the amitraz based product we used under Cascade seems to have left us with very few mites. Secondly, despite the bees looking unexpectedly good for now, I remain very concerned about how much premature aging the late heather has put on the wintering bees, and would like to avoid any stressors that are not needed, and OA trickling is quite hard on the bees, especially the smaller colonies.

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## The Drone Ranger

You are a beekeeping star and possibly a slave driver rolled into one C4U  Lol  :Smile:

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## fatshark

Any views on premature ageing of colonies induced by OA vaporisation c4u? I've been impressed with how well tolerated it is by broodless or broody (? broodright?) colonies but haven't been using it enough to have any views on ageing the colony. I'd hope it was OK being not ingested (at least not in any quantities) and not toxic for brood.

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## Calluna4u

> Any views on premature ageing of colonies induced by OA vaporisation c4u? I've been impressed with how well tolerated it is by broodless or broody (? broodright?) colonies but haven't been using it enough to have any views on ageing the colony. I'd hope it was OK being not ingested (at least not in any quantities) and not toxic for brood.


I have never used sublimation. However two of the guys in my team did it in Germany and Austria and they are quite honest in saying they didn't rate it as being as good as trickling. Also doing several hundreds of hives over a few days they going back over the lot again twice more, all in a period of less than three weeks, they both have said they felt unwell for some time afterwards, despite having all the safety gear.

With trickling being effective, dirt cheap, and extremely fast with a single visit only needed, never felt any need to go to sublimation, though it has become very fashionable in amateur circles especially. Not ruling it out however, but touring round 2700  hives, plus a few hundred nucs, three times doing sublimation constitutes quite a task.

Have no opinion on the ageing caused by sublimation. Outwith my experience or knowledge.

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## fatshark

OK thanks. With vaporisation *instead* of trickling you'd only be making a single visit per hive as it would be during the broodless period. 3 x 5 days (or whatever) treatments are only needed when there's brood present.

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## Pete L

> With trickling being effective, dirt cheap, and extremely fast with a single visit only needed, never felt any need to go to sublimation, though it has become very fashionable in amateur circles especially. Not ruling it out however, but touring round 2700  hives, plus a few hundred nucs, three times doing sublimation constitutes quite a task.


 Sublimation with the right equipment can be faster than trickling and more effective, there is no need to do any more than one treatment in the winter, when it is hoped the bees are broodless, same as is hoped for with trickling, but with the option of doing more treatments without doing harm via sublimation if brood was present, unlike trickling.

The several treatments are only needed if used during the more active times of the season, when brood is present, but swarms, packages, or any time the bees are broodless only needs one treatment.

First started experimenting with sublimation back in 2002, found it effective then, but took way too long because of the equipment available back then, but have done thousands of treatments over the last few years, with the faster equipment now available, and never felt even slightly unwell afterwards, nor any complaints of feeling unwell from those helping.

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## Calluna4u

Inquired of the European guys I know who do sublimation, following the info posted in this thread.

They say to do it 'in season' three times and that they do not do it in winter as they do not think it effective in fully clustered situations. Do you try to hit the time when they are both broodless and still not tight for winter?

Anyone near Perthshire/Angus doing this at speed (would NEED to be under 2 mins per hive) who I could come to see doing it? I presume between now and Christmas.

Always interested in other peoples techniques and not too proud to copy the good.

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## The Drone Ranger

> OK thanks. With vaporisation *instead* of trickling you'd only be making a single visit per hive as it would be during the broodless period. 3 x 5 days (or whatever) treatments are only needed when there's brood present.


Hi fatshark

The little graph I posted somewhere earlier convinces me that one vapourisation treatment in Winter should do the job
Sometimes there can be brood in Winter so that could be an issue

In that year (of 2008 ) the treatments were 30th Oct  and 8th Dec but the weather is different every year
The gap between the treatments  that year was 39 days (40 days and 40 nights is easier to remember)

I was looking at the collected varroa (mostly dead or nearly) throughout the period and it was when I stopped seeing crystals on their bodies and feet that I did the second treatment
So I would say the treatment has a long lasting effect on exposed varroa but not on the bees 
The bees just groom any crystals off their hairs the varroa can't do that so 30 days after treating they still have crystals under the microscope

A nice Winter day in a dry spell is best for me and realistically I need about 20 mins per hive to get the job done
I haven't started this year yet because of weather conditions 

While its all going on I have a little read of a good book, or a cup of tea, and wait for the varrox to cool down  :Smile:

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## Pete L

> Do you try to hit the time when they are both broodless and still not tight for winter?
> 
> Anyone near Perthshire/Angus doing this at speed (would NEED to be under 2 mins per hive) who I could come to see doing it? I presume between now and Christmas.


Yes, best to treat them when not in a tight cluster if possible, although the warmth from the vapour will also helps break the cluster, 5c or above is okay, maybe less if in poly hives.

With vaporiser i use you can easily do 60 colonies an hour, and have time for a quick coffee, each treatment takes 25/30 seconds.

Or although expensive you could use equipment like this, (linked to earlier in the thread by FS) 300 hives an hour and do them all in one day, if they were all together, like those guys at the almonds.




> Our Vaporizer treats up to 300 hives an hour.


http://vmvaporizer.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY3f...ature=youtu.be

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## alancooper

I treat varroa with winter sublimation but have always been puzzled over how it is possible to know when the colony is broodless if inspection (regular?) is not carried out. I suppose all that we are doing is treating during the period of reduced laying - hitting the broodless period must be just plain lucky. This year I had loads of brood in my colonies with eggs still being laid on 14th Oct (my last inspection on a warm, sunny day). During the third week in November, ivy pollen loads stopped coming in. Qs then might have stopped laying shortly afterwards (cold, wet, windy, lots of bees, lots of sealed brood). By the third week in Dec but probably the last week, or the first week in Jan, I will treat.

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## Kate Atchley

Been out of the loop for a while but I'm planning sublimation with one of the eBay kits before Christmas. 

Has anyone constructed an effective boxed apparatus to achieve this from beneath the mesh floor of Payne's nucs or Swienty hives? They're a similar size. I'm trying to figure out how to sublimate from underneath with a sealed, heat resistant surround/container for the vaporiser, pressed firmly up against the polystyrene of the base ... what materials etc.

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## fatshark

There's a discussion of this on the BKF somewhere and someone posted this rather neat solution:

https://bakerontherocks.files.wordpr...101_151418.jpg (too big to upload, so linked to avoid butchering the page layout)

No experience doing it this way - my vaporiser has a little spout that pushes though the sidewall of the hive/floor.

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## Kate Atchley

> There's a discussion of this on the BKF somewhere and someone posted this rather neat solution: https://bakerontherocks.files.wordpr...101_151418.jpg


Thanks fatshark ... had something like that in mind. Wish I was handier with the joinery but will give it a go.

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## Jon

> had loads of brood in my colonies with eggs still being laid on 14th Oct (my last inspection on a warm, sunny day).


I have a dozen Apideas at home and most of them had eggs in the middle of November so I imagine the queens in bigger colonies were probably laying a bit as well.

This nuc was still bringing in pollen yesterday so likely has some brood.

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## busybeephilip

A lot of brood might mean OA dribble treatment will have to be delayed or not be very effective come 2017

I am thinking that the dribble method in mild winters may have to be replaced with vapping -  now there's a thought !

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## prakel

> A lot of brood might mean OA dribble treatment will have to be delayed or not be very effective come 2017


That's serious pre-planning!

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## Jon

Another couple of weeks of cold wet weather should mean the end of the brood rearing. I usually treat around 20th December.

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## Kate Atchley

> Another couple of weeks of cold wet weather should mean the end of the brood rearing. I usually treat around 20th December.


Chickens are uncanny in their capacity to come into lay very soon after the solstice, regardless of bad weather, so I've always assumed the bees, too, can read the signals and know when winter turns towards spring with a smidgen more daylight each day. I agree with you Jon and aim for the solstice ... around 20-22nd if possible.

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## prakel

> Chickens are uncanny in their capacity to come into lay very soon after the solstice, regardless of bad weather, so I've always assumed the bees, too, can read the signals and know when winter turns towards spring with a smidgen more daylight each day. I agree with you Jon and aim for the solstice ... around 20-22nd if possible.


Don't forget that the point of least sealed brood may come after the recommencement of laying* -it depends on when laying stopped.... Here, any actual cesation of laying during the winter tends to be quite short. Didn't Tinsley and Mobus find similar results in the North of Scotland?

edit: *I've noticed that once it starts, winter egg laying initially tends to be slower than it was shortly before the lay off, that's what seems to tip the balance slightly.

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## Black Comb

Ben Harden gave a talk at the 2015 NHS on broodless period in winter. A lot of the research he quoted was by Bernard Mobus.
It's not on Youtube yet. 

From memory he implied that it was more likely to be early December. I must admit he talked quite quickly and at times I found him difficult to understand, so I may be wrong on this. 

Temps here today around 11 degrees C. I guess it would do no harm to have a quick look in if you really want to know.

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## prakel

> Ben Harden gave a talk at the 2015 NHS on broodless period in winter. A lot of the research he quoted was by Bernard Mobus.
> It's not on Youtube yet. 
> 
> From memory he implied that it was more likely to be early December. I must admit he talked quite quickly and at times I found him difficult to understand, so I may be wrong on this.


That's a video I'll look forward to. I see this early December broodless period mentioned quite a lot so your memory is probably right.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks fatshark ... had something like that in mind. Wish I was handier with the joinery but will give it a go.


Hi Kate if you make something where the Varrox is in a fixed position you can avoid the wood burning by folding a piece of varroa mesh in two and putting it between the base of the varrox pan and the wood 
It only needs to be a little bigger than the varrox after its folded

----------


## Kate Atchley

Made some kit to carry out OA sublimation for Swienty polyhives and Paynes nucs from beneath their mesh floors ... and they worked a treat! 

You'll see they needed little in the way of kit: the one for Swienty hives is based on a 245 x 465 piece of 8mm plywood, some strips of packaging material (polystyrene?) the dept of the space under the floor, a cork mat and some hoop staples; for the nucs I used a larger piece of packaging material with a depth to fill the space beneath the floor and cut a channel for the vaporiser rod and a square lined with a piece of slate for the head. 

The vaporiser is not in position on either of the "boards" but you can see where it will go. Ideally, they should both be made of something less vulnerable to heat than the packaging material ... but it was handy and I have only 3 nucs to treat.

IMG_0326.jpgIMG_0328.jpgIMG_0321.jpg

----------


## fatshark

_Wish I was handier with the joinery_

Methinks you are too modest ...  :Wink:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Well done Kate
The slate was a good idea 
I have made something as well (which I will photo tomorrow)
The snag is that the varrox head was so far below the mesh on a Paynes Nuc that the oxalic cooled and mostly ended up just in a circle on the mesh
The weather was very cold on the day of the field trials though  :Smile: 
I will get some polystyrene in the build of the next version  lol!!

----------


## Kate Atchley

> The snag is that the varrox head was so far below the mesh on a Paynes Nuc that the oxalic cooled and mostly ended up just in a circle on the mesh
> The weather was very cold on the day of the field trials though  I will get some polystyrene in the build of the next version  lol!!


I'm doing another round of hives on Friday when the weather will still be warm ... around 11º or 12º. Maybe that relative warmth will help the acid particles to continue rising up and circulating in the hives?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Definitely will help 
When I do the Smith hives the varrox is quite close to the mesh so no problem
It was only the poly nucs so I will be doing them in the warm spell same as you Kate

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## fatshark

There was a discussionin the _other place_ on doing vaporisation when the cluster wasn't tightly packed together. The usual range of strongly voiced opinions. I can see the logic in choosing a day when the vapour has the best chance of permeating through the cluster. I don't think the time it takes or the temperature it reaches is likely to disrupt a tightly packed cluster very much. Certainly can't do any harm I'd think.

----------


## Pete L

> I can see the logic in choosing a day when the vapour has the best chance of permeating through the cluster.


Warmer is definitely better.

Mike Palmer used OAV on his colonies during winter in Vermont, very cold, he found the treatment wasn't effective enough, i don't know the dosage he used , and he does over winter his main colonies on double deeps plus a shallow, so maybe too low a dosage, and large internal area may also of contributed to the treatment being less effective.

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## Kate Atchley

> I can see the logic in choosing a day when the vapour has the best chance of permeating through the cluster.


For one hive my improvised "board" lacked enough support underneath as the hive was on a stand with bars front and back. So I held it in place (well protected ... though I did not see escaping vapour from any hives/nucs). The vaporiser had been used on the neighbouring hive so was warm, not hot. _As soon as_ I inserted the board underneath, _before_ I attached the battery, the bees began to roar. I attached the battery and the noise then grew and faded within a minute or so to a quiet murmur. Assuming I had not killed off most of the bees (!) I wondered if this was indicating the dispersal of the bees from their cluster, along with the dispersal of the acid particles. Any suggestions?

In _very cold_ conditions, even allowing for the convention attraction of the warm cluster, it's hard to see how a double BB + S could be well sublimated.

----------


## fatshark

Hi Kate ... you'd have a PM if your inbox wasn't full  :Wink:

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## Kate Atchley

> Hi Kate ... you'd have a PM if your inbox wasn't full


 Learn something every day ... can now empty my in and outboxes!!

PS: What kind of batteries are folk using? I'm lugging a car battery around and its _awfi' hevy_!

----------


## gwizzie

> Made some kit to carry out OA sublimation for Swienty polyhives and Paynes nucs from beneath their mesh floors ... and they worked a treat! 
> 
> You'll see they needed little in the way of kit: the one for Swienty hives is based on a 245 x 465 piece of 8mm plywood, some strips of packaging material (polystyrene?) the dept of the space under the floor, a cork mat and some hoop staples; for the nucs I used a larger piece of packaging material with a depth to fill the space beneath the floor and cut a channel for the vaporiser rod and a square lined with a piece of slate for the head. 
> 
> The vaporiser is not in position on either of the "boards" but you can see where it will go. Ideally, they should both be made of something less vulnerable to heat than the packaging material ... but it was handy and I have only 3 nucs to treat.
> Can you please confirm that this does work this way ? many thanks 
> 
> Attachment 2502Attachment 2503Attachment 2504


Hi Kate that makes for very interesting reading as I did see a video somewhere we the guy had tried this from under the hive and said that it didn't work because the vapor recrystallized before it could get through the mesh ? 
Can you please confirm that this way does indeed work, many thanks  :Smile:

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Hi Kate that makes for very interesting reading as I did see a video somewhere we the guy had tried this from under the hive and said that it didn't work because the vapor recrystallized before it could get through the mesh ? Can you please confirm that this way does indeed work, many thanks


The Paynes' nucs have a very open mesh and I sense the vapour went straight up as there was none hanging around when I withdrew the board from underneath. The mesh on the Swienty hives is not so open and is more likely to present a problem. I'll check the floors some time in January, and the drop, to see if I think it has worked. Watch this space!

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## gwizzie

> The Paynes' nucs have a very open mesh and I sense the vapour went straight up as there was none hanging around when I withdrew the board from underneath. The mesh on the Swienty hives is not so open and is more likely to present a problem. I'll check the floors some time in January, and the drop, to see if I think it has worked. Watch this space!


Hi Kate, thanks for the info, I am going to make one for my Paynes' nucs and the Paradise BEEBOX Hives that I have so need to order the Oxalic Acid Evaporator 1st this week!!! will keep you posted on my adventure too.

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## Pete L

> The Paynes' nucs have a very open mesh and I sense the vapour went straight up as there was none hanging around when I withdrew the board from underneath. !


Kate, if you remove the roof you can see if the vapor is rising up by looking through the clear cover, if you are using them that is.

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## gwizzie

Hi I have just ordered my Oxalic Acid Evaporator  and Oxalic Acid BUT it looks like the Oxalic Acid does NOT come with a measure for the 1g  :Frown:  . 
Anyone got any suggestions please thanks  :Embarrassment:

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## alclosier

Small set of scales like a scales, the tiny pocket size should only cost about 7 quid. I would put a container on, tare it and measure it out. If you need to be really accurate a balance might be better.

Cheap:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/201435360050

More accurate - more expensive:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/MTM-Mini-Dig...771?nav=SEARCH


Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

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## gwizzie

> Small set of scales like a scales, the tiny pocket size should only cost about 7 quid. I would put a container on, tare it and measure it out. If you need to be really accurate a balance might be better.
> 
> Cheap:
> 
> http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/201435360050
> 
> More accurate - more expensive:
> 
> http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/MTM-Mini-Dig...771?nav=SEARCH
> ...


Hi thanks for the reply, was thinking more along the lines of a small scoop that would measure it for me!!

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## madasafish

I have a set of kitchen scales. Digtital.
And a plastic spoon.
Weighed out 2g of OA onto another spoon.
Transferred to plastic spoon.
Levelled OA.
Marked height of OA..on spoon.

Job done: just fill spoon to marked height..

(as bees are very tolerant of sublimation , a little over/under weighing is irrelevant).

I don't do on site difficult things like measuring..KISS.

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## Kate Atchley

> Hi thanks for the reply, was thinking more along the lines of a small scoop that would measure it for me!!


The small end of this measuring spoon (2.5ml), when filled level, holds about 1. 5g OA crystals. So we're talking small quantities. 

I weighed out 3g using my digital kitchen scales and played around with that quantity to establish the 1g measure on the wee spoon, then measured on site using that spoon, varying the quantity depending on colony size.

IMG_0330.jpg

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## gwizzie

> I have a set of kitchen scales. Digtital.
> And a plastic spoon.
> Weighed out 2g of OA onto another spoon.
> Transferred to plastic spoon.
> Levelled OA.
> Marked height of OA..on spoon.
> 
> Job done: just fill spoon to marked height..
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply makes sense, I thought it was 1g per supper (bugger ment Hive) ? LOL

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## gwizzie

> The small end of this measuring spoon (2.5ml), when filled level, holds about 1. 5g OA crystals. So we're talking small quantities. 
> 
> I weighed out 3g using my digital kitchen scales and played around with that quantity to establish the 1g measure on the wee spoon, then measured on site using that spoon, varying the quantity depending on colony size.
> 
> IMG_0330.jpg


Hi Kate, again thanks for the reply and the wee pic  :Wink:  I have ordered everything but they will take time to get here, especially at this time of the year SO just as a backup I have ordered some 500ml Oxalic Acid Solution and empty 'trickle bottle' from ebay. This will allow me to treat the hives, this will then give me time to make the lower tray for the ploys that I have.

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## Kate Atchley

> I thought it was 1g per supper ?


The dosage is 1 - 3g per colony, depending on size. None of mine, out here in the wilds, are 3g-colonies I reckon!

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## gwizzie

Well none of my stuff arrived to try this out still in santa's bag somewhere!!!
So today I decided that because it was a lot colder here only 1deg at the house, I knew it would be colder at my apiary and it was -1 due to having some time and the weather I took the opportunity to treat them with OA drizzle and then giving them their candy. On treating the bees there are a few things that I observed,,,

1: My back is not going to stand up to being bent over the hive to drizzle more than my 6 hives. (bad back) So therefore the wife has told me to get a sublimox vaporiser 
55a8c4a11c9c1_Sublimoxboite.jpg 
Yes I hear you say that's a lot of money for just 6 hives BUT I don't intend to stay at 6 hives and my health comes 1st she tells me.. So saving time ££

2: The bees in the poly hive's are doing VERY VERY well loads of bees but wooden hives don't look to be doing so well ? Yes I know it's early yet but time will tell.... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I have just ordered 6 more paynes nukes and feeder for 2016 ready for splits/swarms and bee packages !

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## The Drone Ranger

Graham you are nuts  :Smile: 
But in a good way


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## gavin

Hard to work out whether you are kidding or not.  I often deliver the trickling as a squirt from standing upright (depending on hive stand height).  Much kinder on the back compared to lugging car batteries and whatnot then bending down to shove stuff in the entrance of hives and holding it there awhile.




> I have just ordered 6 more paynes nukes and feeder for 2016 ready for splits/swarms and bee packages !


Where would the packages be from if you went down that route?

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## fatshark

The Sublimox is a lovely piece of kit but it - and the genny - are certainly heavier than a Trickle2 dispenser and a tepid flask of made up OA. However, if your back can't cope with midwinter treatments how are you going to cope with midsummer inspections and shifting 5 bloated supers* off each brood box?  :Wink: 

* what? Isn't that about average here?

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## gwizzie

> The Sublimox is a lovely piece of kit but it - and the genny - are certainly heavier than a Trickle2 dispenser and a tepid flask of made up OA. However, if your back can't cope with midwinter treatments how are you going to cope with midsummer inspections and shifting 5 bloated supers* off each brood box? 
> 
> * what? Isn't that about average here?


Hi yep it is lighter but was not thinking of using a genny as there HEAVY  :Stick Out Tongue:  was going to use my car and a inverter a lot lighter... As for my back i managed the inspection before the winter on all my hives no problem and lifting heavy loads is not any problem.... 
My problem with my back is that if i'm hunched over the hive for any time my back goes into a spasm that's all.

I have been speaking to a good friend today about the Sublimox and I think he is going to adapt my Oxalic Acid Pan Evaporator 12 Volt to look like the Sublimox (well that's the theory) as he is a tool maker and has all the gear to make it  :Smile:  just got the lid to work out yet as what to use ? as I think the box of electronics in the Sublimox is just an inverter to reduce to 12v ?

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## gwizzie

> Graham you are nuts 
> But in a good way
> 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Thanks BUD  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## gwizzie

> Hard to work out whether you are kidding or not.  I often deliver the trickling as a squirt from standing upright (depending on hive stand height).  Much kinder on the back compared to lugging car batteries and whatnot then bending down to shove stuff in the entrance of hives and holding it there awhile.
> 
> 
> 
> Where would the packages be from if you went down that route?


Yep you're right there Gav!!! never thought of that Gav as its my 1st year doing this but if I need to do it again I will keep that in mind... Not intending to bend down and hold it in place as it should stay on place if you have a hive entrance made for it...

As for the bees i'm thinking of carnies this time and a m8 going to get them for me I think

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## prakel

> As for my back i managed the inspection before the winter on all my hives no problem and lifting heavy loads is not any problem.... 
> My problem with my back is that if i'm hunched over the hive for any time my back goes into a spasm that's all.


Sounds like you're an ideal candidate for throwing the stands away and kneeling down to inspect. I did just that when I was suffering from a back injury. My back's fine now but with the exception of a flood prone apiary I wouldn't dream of going back to stand up beekeeping.

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## gwizzie

> Sounds like you're an ideal candidate for throwing the stands away and kneeling down to inspect. I did just that when I was suffering from a back injury. My back's fine now but with the exception of a flood prone apiary I wouldn't dream of going back to stand up beekeeping.


Hi thanks for the comment! I am ok when standing straight up that's why inspecting is no problem as the frames are at eye level when out of the hive. Don't think there is any fear of my apiary flooding thank god.. 

I had a op on my back 22 years ago and this was the only side affect I got from it is I can't bend over for any length of time.

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## The Drone Ranger

My tip is avoid doing what I did a few years ago
Lifted top brood box off and instead of stepping to the side and putting it on spare stand I just turned my upper body and put the box on the stand
Result  a miserable rest of the season with constant back pain 

If only I had thought of turning the sympathy into a Sublimox 
Where are my brains (don't answer that)
I have been running some tests on the varrox so I will post something about that when I get the camera on the go again  :Smile: 

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## gwizzie

Whats up with the camera ? not suffering from a photovoroa attack is it  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Pete L

IMG_0497.jpgIMG_0496.jpgIMG_0493.jpg


> as I think the box of electronics in the Sublimox is just an inverter to reduce to 12v ?


The box containing the electronics is quite complex, printed circuit and attachments specially made by the company, expensive, as i found out, and the heat band around the pot which takes the acid is 240 volt, i also tried an inverter, gave up on that.

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## gwizzie

> The box containing the electronics is quite complex, printed circuit and attachments specially made by the company, expensive, as i found out, and the heat band around the pot which takes the acid is 240 volt, i also tried an inverter, gave up on that.


Hi thanks for your input  :Smile:  well that's out of the window the inverter... not many power points in the woods. So think i'm going to have to stick with the 12v Oxalic Acid Pan Evaporator and see if my m8 can adapt it for me by making a new pan and spout  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Whats up with the camera ? not suffering from a photovoroa attack is it


The lense jammed and I dismantled it several times  :Smile: 
The replacement isn't as good 
It doesn't have a lense trundling in and out though
I can't get a decent photo in poor light and I can't get the varrox on the go for rain
The varrox costs about £100 but lasts donkeys years 
Polyhives melt though so that needs thinking about


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## gwizzie

> The lense jammed and I dismantled it several times 
> The replacement isn't as good 
> It doesn't have a lense trundling in and out though
> I can't get a decent photo in poor light and I can't get the varrox on the go for rain
> The varrox costs about £100 but lasts donkeys years 
> Polyhives melt though so that needs thinking about
> 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Hope you get it fixed soon m8  :Big Grin: 
I have now a varrox for OA and have checked the clearance in the paradise hives and there is plenty of room to put in the front. Im going to build a tray that will fit all hives that covers the hive entrance and protects the hive when being removed (so no melting), I'll keep you posted on the development when I get it made  :Wink: .

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## paulb

Hiya, have looked through the thread and am trying to find a drinks heater that is flat. All the ones I have found are at 90°. Do I just get one of those and try to bend it or does anyone have an eBay link to a flat heater.

Cheers

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## The Drone Ranger

https://youtu.be/ggJyEKmlvJQ
If you are a fan of long boring video with poor sound etc then check this out
All done in Shakycam (pat pending)
Its the controller for the varrox I have been doing, when I should be helping with hive monitoring stuff  :Smile: 

I will put the DIY instructions somewhere handy, (PCB, Fritzing files, AT85 Sketch , parts list , wiring etc,)  and link them here ASAP
)

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## The Drone Ranger

Somebody elsewhere pointed out this is putting a lot of heat into the hive

The timings are pretty much those recommended by varrox 
But for completeness I will state the obvious
You can walk in and get the gear as soon as you get a green light
I wouldn't recommend that without protective gear though 
Which defeats the purpose of automating it :Smile: 


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## SDM

> Polyhives melt though so that needs thinking about
> 
> k


People keep saying that.
Since you're aiming for the middle of the hive, it sits on the mesh floor. 
All mine are poly, I've not bad any problems with melting.

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## The Drone Ranger

Sorry SDM 
Yes I Am sure you are right 
I don't have any poly hives just the Payne's nucs
They are easily melted though (by the hot glue gun  :Smile: )

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## Kate Atchley

After several sessions using my eBay vaporiser (from Maks11000, Ukraine) and having read the user instructions for Varrox, I asked some questions of him. He answered:

1. "It is not waterproof" (so don't dunk it in water after each treatment as recommended for Varrrox)

2. "Time evaporation acid really need a little more. This allows the use of electric power more evenly and much longer." (It takes a little longer to vaporise the crystals than suggested by Varrox so I allow an extra minute attached to the battery with the same time afterwards.)

3. "15 - 25 hives." (The number of hives he suggests can be treated with one fully-charged battery.)

I'm still wondering if there is not a lighter-weight battery we could use? Having to lug a car battery around spoils the fun!

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## madasafish

> After several sessions using my eBay vaporiser (from Maks11000, Ukraine) and having read the user instructions for Varrox, I asked some questions of him. He answered:
> 
> 1. "It is not waterproof" (so don't dunk it in water after each treatment as recommended for Varrrox)
> 
> 2. "Time evaporation acid really need a little more. This allows the use of electric power more evenly and much longer." (It takes a little longer to vaporise the crystals than suggested by Varrox so I allow an extra minute attached to the battery with the same time afterwards.)
> 
> 3. "15 - 25 hives." (The number of hives he suggests can be treated with one fully-charged battery.)
> 
> I'm still wondering if there is not a lighter-weight battery we could use? Having to lug a car battery around spoils the fun!


Beekeeping forum have a long recent debate on that... http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35764

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## Lancs Lad

This is the vapouriser I built three years ago, I was given the glow plug by a local garage making the total cost £4.60 it works perfectly.

http://www.digitaldodo.com/oxalic-acid-vaporiser-plans/

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## Kate Atchley

> Beekeeping forum have a long recent debate on that... http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35764


Thanks madasafish. Fractious and interesting! Might buy the recommended Suaoki kit for next winter.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks madasafish. Fractious and interesting! Might buy the recommended Suaoki kit for next winter.


 Hi Kate 
there's a lot of googling going on over there and lots of "expert" opinions
The battery I use is fairly easy to carry it has a handle and a built in charge indicator
Can't speak for other vaporisers but the varrox uses 12A the first start up stone cold
Every subsequent use when its warm it will be just under 9A I've measured it

If you can time 2.5 mins accurately that's plenty time for vaporising
Extra time just flattens the battery quicker so that's a good reason to avoid it
If you stick a varrox in water the tray/cup bit falls out and you waste battery power reheating it

Most people settle for a car battery which they buy or acquire 
An AGM glass mat deep discharge one will survive longer
reduced life is relative so instead of surviving 500 recharges it might be 250
That could be 10 recharges a year for 25 years

My standard batteries are 44Ah and were bought in 2011 and work just as well now as then

I did 13 hives this afternoon with one of them, and it would have done loads more if it hadn't got dark at 4pm  :Smile: 

Some theoreticians would have you believe nothing short of a battery from a Mars lander will do

Frankly google is just a menace sometimes

You do need a fair size in Ampere Hours so a pokey little battery just won't do the job
The duty cycle is about 2.5 mins on then 10 mins or longer off (not continuous )
Google it if you don't want to take my word for it Lol!

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## madasafish

This is my first application of oxalic using sublimation. It's so simple. And non messy. And very cheap.

What more can any Scot want? :Cool:

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## The Drone Ranger

I agree madasafish 

Here's a couple of very bad videos on varrox (links to youtube)
You will need to be very bored to enjoy these 
Use the fast forward button liberally as I haven't made any effort to edit them  :Smile: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IngXoRNHeUM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DX5JMAgCTY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtT7HoD6Iq0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j0I3SnQAb4

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## The Drone Ranger

I haven't had much luck trying to use varrox on Paynes Nucs
Tried two (of my own) different but equally useless designs which involved too much disturbance
In the end I have just used the trickle treatment for them  :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> This is the vapouriser I built three years ago, I was given the glow plug by a local garage making the total cost £4.60 it works perfectly.
> 
> http://www.digitaldodo.com/oxalic-acid-vaporiser-plans/


Hi Lancs Lad
Being a twit I have only just looked at your plans
What a great build 
Very neat and by careful design its more energy efficient
5A  and 2min is very good 
How many hives did the motorbike battery do ?

By the by removing the entrance block is the same with a varrox

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I haven't had much luck trying to use varrox on Paynes Nucs .... In the end I have just used the trickle treatment for them


Back on page 8, 16 December I posted pics of two boards I made to use with my Ukrainian vaporiser, beneath the mesh floors of Swingy hives and Paynes nucs. They seemed to work okay though I haven't checked whether most of the crystals ended up chilled out on the mesh. They were very easy to make and use.

Drone Ranger thanks for all you've shared. I''m converted to sublimation where possible and will be more savvy about battery use next year. I wasn't disconnecting the battery until all the crystals were gone but realise I can disconnect sooner and let the heat do the rest. Even so, this Ukrainian kit is slower than Varrox (and they've confirmed that) so after the first treatment, from cold, I reckon it needs at least 3 minutes of power, then another 3 minutes or so to allow the vapour to rise and circulate. That's on single brood boxes. Double brood presumably need a bit longer with the extra OA crystals.

----------


## madasafish

Picture of my crude but effective vapouriser . Total Cost £2.75 (glowplug ebay)

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## GRIZZLY

I use a "VARTA 12v 12ah" motorcycle battery which only measures 6in x 6in x 4in and is quite light in weight compared to a car battery. This is 100 amp capacity. I can treat at least 10 hives providing I fully charge it at the beginning of a session.

----------


## Calum

trickle all the way, partly because i hate wearing a gasmask, and my kids like to come to the bees, I dont want to get gasmasks for them either.
also it doesnt look good to the public, beekeepers going at their bees like that and arguing we are trustees of nature - just doesnt look good.

----------


## gavin

I agree with every one of these points Calum.  (The grown-up kids still come along especially at Christmas.)  However in the UK we have Prof Ratnieks saying that sublimation is much better for the bees and declaring that everyone should convert from trickling.  Given the increased risk to the beekeeper I think that advice is most unwise when your audience will be thousands of beekeepers.  See the next Scottish Beekeeper if you get that.

I've still been wondering though, and reading all the ingenuity with interest.  As I'm now building up numbers, devices that take 5, 6, 7 minutes to go through the whole cycle would be a bit of a bind.  Trickling is really fast.  The flip-over tray type sublimators might compete in terms of time but the need for a rinse after Api-Bioxal (liked your mention of that on the videos DR  :Smile: ) would scupper that.

Am I right that in Germany you have a properly registered (and relatively inexpensive) oxalic acid solution for Varroa control?  We're now being forced into using Api-Bioxal which recommends a much higher concentration than we're used to.

Do most beekeepers in Germany trickle?

----------


## Pete L

> As I'm now building up numbers, devices that take 5, 6, 7 minutes to go through the whole cycle would be a bit of a bind.


What I use takes 25 seconds.

Below is an interesting thread on the commercial section of Beesource.




> I think I treated over 1700 hives in a day all in the holding yard worked good time will tell if we got a good kill though .. I think our mite levels were low to begin with do some more checking in texas





> Gave her another go today. We did 3 yards... 220 pallets. Worker was at the house at 9 this morning. We were back before 4. There was maybe 75 minutes of total travel time. We did check the yard we did yesterday just to relax my worker's head. He wanted to make sure we had not fried a bunch of bees. All looked good. We stuck some sticky boards in some. All in all this is a fast system. We were able to do the first yard of 140 pallets in 2.5 hours as opposed to yesterday 70 pallets took 2 hours. We just had a little more experience and knew when to keep our eyes open. As long as we get the good mite kill, I would give it my full endorsement. I can keep you guys posted.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...or-mites/page4

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## fatshark

I'm afraid I can't agree with the "it's more dangerous" stance. Oxalic acid is a poison - whether ingested or vaporised. With both you *must take appropriate precautions*. If you do - don't drink it, don't inhale it _etc_ then it is not dangerous to the operator. I see the point that Calum is making re. 'trustees of nature'. _First impressions last_, as they say. However, dribbled OA is more dangerous to unsealed brood than vaporised OA. We might look better dribbling (so to speak) but we're actually probably doing more harm to the bees/larvae in the colony. I'd prefer to present a well-argued case that I'm using the best possible treatment to minimise mites and the damaging viruses they transmit, rather than using something I (now - having used both) believe is sub-optimal.

I also like showing people around the apiary, but I don't necessarily think that doing so during the application of treatments is the best time to do this.

Finally, it's not clear that Api-Bioxal leaves any residues in the Sublimox-type 'active' vaporisers. OA certainly does not, though the instructions recommend rinsing at the end of treatments (not per hive). I'm well aware that there are unspecified additives in Api-Bioxal. I expect to be vaporising Api-Bioxal in the next couple of weeks and will report back ...

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## gavin

> .... additives in Api-Bioxal. I expect to be vaporising Api-Bioxal in the next couple of weeks and will report back ...


That would be most interesting ... and useful ... thanks.  There is a VMD meeting planned in 6 weeks or so which will touch on this and other aspects.

Api-Bioxal has glucose and powdered silica I believe (and 'added value'  :EEK!: ) as well as OA.

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## fatshark

Glucose and powdered silica are outrageously expensive additives ...  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

This is a nice civilised thread 
I like madasafish's hand crafted item
The profession equipment for sublimation is faster but you need a lot of hives to justify it
If trickling does kill some brood that's bad but it implies the queen is laying so they will be replaced presumably
There should be no fumes coming out of the hive during sublimation
After the 7mins or there about you can remove the entrance foam on a cold day no fumes will appear

So everybody is right and wrong in equal measure I would say because the advantages of each method have been stated but the disadvantages are being overstated strangely 
Oxalic is dangerous yes but not overly so 
Nail polish remover, diesel, petrol you name it, are dangerous in some context :Smile: 

Reading this Back it seems a bit pompous but I hope you can see what I am getting at  :Smile: 

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## mbc

20160105_124841.jpg
My battery operated gas heat gun, unfortunately it doesn't have enough oomph to sublimate oxalic on its own, however:

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## mbc

2016-01-06 10.33.56.jpg

Coupled with a 12 v heat pad made into a crucible with some sides, put into a clip box with lid and a fire cement base, an exit spout and a hole for the heat gun, I have a portable forced gas sublimator.  This is mark 5.3 and works reasonably but I'm already working on mark 6.0 which will hopefully be even betterer.

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## Kate Atchley

> ... There should be no fumes coming out of the hive during sublimation ... So everybody is right and wrong in equal measure I would say because the advantages of each method have been stated but the disadvantages are being overstated strangely ...Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


I agree. With careful application, no vapours escape and I haven't felt I was at risk at all while I was doing the treatments ... indeed the mask was belt and braces given the absence of fumes.  

As for the mask, I use the one shown below, as specified in the Varrox bumf: an FFP3. Worn under a veil, even with eye protection, it is not very obvious or alarming to onlookers. However, I wouldn't advise having children anywhere near OA whether you're trickling or sublimating.
IMG_0344.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Reading a well known American site
Half way through the "scientist" decides to vaporize some oxalic and deliberately inhale the fumes ?????
Here's a quote from the Oxalic pages
"The Europeans have tinkered with oxalic acid quite a bit;"
Everything on his site re oxalic nicked straight from Europe then that statement amazing really

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Gavin 
Once you have used the varrox you see that it is pretty easy and safe
Most people (not perhaps American experts) can be trusted
You do need more than 10 mins probably 15min a hive or so
Use a timer you are a long way away till its completely safe
Some of my poly nucs are on double brood 
When I looked in to trickle the bees were in the bottom box
Fiddlesticks what now ?
Split the boxes ? ,just guess? ,come back later?
There's no perfect system  :Smile: 

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## fatshark

In fairness DR I think he's done a reasonable job of summarising the information - including quite a bit of original material on colony management. I agree that his stance on vaporisation is a little perverse considering the data he presents on its efficacy (_e.g._ the studies from Radetzki ... quoted not nicked in my opinion) but maybe I'd think differently if I sniffed the stuff.

PS ... your double brood poly nucs ... turn 'em over and dribble through the OMF?

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## gwizzie

Hi everyone as new to all this and the one that started this thread I read all the comments from both sides of the augment eagerly . I have decided that I am going to use the one I purchased from ebay... 
I will use a mask as advised and won't be inhaling to see what it feels like  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
There are other things in life that are more dangerous than using this and it is down to personal preference if and what you decide to use, I have spoken to many beekeepers now in my travel for knowledge and guidance (a scary journey I will tell you!!) some swear by this method and others say don't use it, it's too dangerous.

I used the drizzle end of last year as the Evaporator I bought from ebay had not arrives (bloody xmas post) well it did have to come from Germany. Now there is the drizzle that I used, some beekeepers have said to me don't do that it is very hard on the bees and you could lose your QUEEN ect, ect 

So who is right ??? use Evaporator or drizzle well no one as far as I can see with my limited experience, its down to personal preference....... correct me if I'm wrong  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Calum

> See the next Scottish Beekeeper if you get that.


I gave up on that periodical. There were one or two interesting articles, but not enough to justify the trees.





> Am I right that in Germany you have a properly registered (and relatively inexpensive) oxalic acid solution for Varroa control?  We're now being forced into using Api-Bioxal which recommends a much higher concentration than we're used to.
> Do most beekeepers in Germany trickle?


Most trickle, but some also spray with lactic acid. Yes we can buy medication quality varroa treatments through our beekeeping association- as it is a medicine, you have to document treatments, just like cattle farmers do. 
After all we are treating animals that are producing food for human consumption - cant give them any old crap!
 @Fatshark, OA is to be used on brood free colonies, if the colony does have open brood it is strong enough to take a little brood damage. 

With an open mesh floor you will always have some gas escaping - and it is colourless, - oxalic acid crystals in my lungs? Rather you than me. Wear a full gas mask! 
Vaporisation is not allowed in Germany, though I know a few that do use it due to the low cost of the powder. 
Treatment for 100 colonies - bought medication 30€. OA powder 3€. Is it worth spending the 5 glasses of honey? In my opinion yes, but some people will do stupid things to save a pound...

In sum now I have overwintered about 800 colonies, including my trainees. Overwintering losses with my strategy is <2%.
but the success is more to do with the intergrated system of biological and treatment measures. It is the complete concept that counts. 

Trickle or Vapour if used correctly both will work.

Oh almost forgot, the treatment must be completed by week 1 in the calender year - so the OA has time to dissapate - otherwise there is a much increased risk of increased OA levels in the spring honey crop.

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## The Drone Ranger

I haven't heard of the 1 week guidance before Calum is that new ?
Oxalic vapour is visible not a colourless gas its heavy and settles very quickly
I placed a couple of live varroa in Lactic acid (bought from Thornes) 
They were under the microscope on a slide for hours and it had no effect on them so I concluded that it's not very effective and pretty expensive
Do you have a better formulation  spray in Germany ?
Very good losses rate by the way that shows it can be done on a large scale 


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## busybeephilip

Api-Bioxal  from what I read this is just 35 gram sachet  which represents 88% of oxalic acid crystals ie 30.8 grams, the remaining 12 % I dont know, probably an anti caking agent, this is added to 500ml of syrup for dribbling which gives a 6 gram acid in 100mls .  This seems to be much higher conc than what we are used to using in the UK and northern europe for dribbling and given that there are many academic papers supporting the concentrations that we use it appears that Api-Bioxal as used per instructions represents an overdosing for UK bees

http://www.cari.be/medias/permanent/...al_2011_en.pdf

From what I can see, this product is just a souped up fancy way of selling a very cheap readily available chemical which can be bought in an analytically pure form from many supply houses for pure profit

Calum - look at the link , it says there is a zero withdrawal period for honey !  crumbs... I would not like to eat / extract  honey after dribbling or vaporizing the combs. It makes one wonder.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> In sum now I have overwintered about 800 colonies, including my trainees. ...


How do you overwinter your trainees, Calum?!

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## fatshark

> Calum - look at the link , it says there is a zero withdrawal period for honey !  crumbs... I would not like to eat / extract  honey after dribbling or vaporizing the combs. It makes one wonder.


There are studies of this (though more are needed). For example: http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/u...xalic_acid.htm

OA is a natural ingredient of honey ... being selective, here's a chunk cut from their conclusions:

_At the time of the oxalic acid treatments the bee colonies' strength and brood amount were average for Danish conditions. Neither eight days after the March treatment, nor at the first honey harvest in June a significant difference could be detected in oxalic acid concentration in food or honey between the treated groups and the control group. Eight days after the treatment the maximum level of oxalic acid was found in the sprayed group with a mean concentration of 0.0062%. For comparison, the natural concentration of oxalic acid (oxalates) based on fresh weight in spinach is 0.3-1.2%, in rhubarb 0.2-1.3%, in tea 0.3-2.0% and in cocoa 0.5-0.9% (Fassett 1973). Since oxalic acid is not fat-soluble no residues will build up in the wax in the treated colonies (Imdorf et al. 1998). Thus, residues in honey and wax after spring treatment with oxalic acid seems not to be problematic._

I should add that these studies all used trickled or sprayed OA ... I'm not aware of studies that have looked at OA residues after vaporisation but - because might expect it to have even less effect than when added in syrup.

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## gavin

> Hi Gavin 
> Once you have used the varrox you see that it is pretty easy and safe
> Most people (not perhaps American experts) can be trusted


I saw all that in your videos - nicely done, pretty safe too.  My concerns are not for those who make sure that they do it in a safe way (and a timer that allows you to do it like that while at a safe distance is really good) but for the more casual beekeeper.  The average SBA or LA member who doesn't spend a lot of time online discussing beekeeping but who just gets on with it.  If thousands of beekeepers follow Prof Ratnieks' advice to move to sublimation I'm pretty sure that there will be accidents.  

Yes, trickling carries risks too but at 3.2% (anhydrous equivalent, usual recipe) or 4.5% (anhydrous equivalent with the new, stronger, Api-Bioxal) are they higher or lower?  Hard to say perhaps.  Drinking might be a risk to children.  Splashing on the skin isn't.  

The components that comprise the other 11% of Api-Bioxal powder are 

Colloidal silica hydrate
Glucose monohydrate 

This comes from the product information on the VMD website:

https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/Product...ationDatabase/

then letter A, page 8, or search for the product in the box.  Section 6.1 for the ingredients.

A sticky mess on your sublimator I would imagine but it would be good to hear if that really is the case in advance of the next VMD meeting at the start of March.

Calum, many thanks for your comments.  Your official bee medicine type oxalic is very much cheaper than ours at 30 cents per hive. 

Which company sells it in Germany?

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## Calum

Hi Mellifera,
I find my trainees respond very well to a mead I make from the capping honey I would otherwise have thrown away.  :Smile: 
Port wine yeast, 6kg honey, a cup of black tea, and 14l water.... And some yeast nutrition tablest is you are feeling jaunty.
Racked off at 16% seems to keep them in good spirits, and I have not found any varroa on any of my trainees. I checked the females, drones got homework to check each others miteload. 

Fatshark, 
according to German law (and laws about beekeeping are some of the oldest in Germany like Corpus Iuris Civilis from 533), it is illegal to add or remove anything from honey. 
regardless of whats in your tea. your Spinach is also green, so is it ok for honey to be green too? :P
So we must remove any winter feed at the start of the season to ensure no contamination (or minimal). 
right enough Germany is not the UK, and depending on the upcoming vote, the UK may not be Europe in the future, so will up anchor and sail away. 
I can only tell you how it is here, and what I am doing, right or wrong for where you are.

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## Calum

Gavin
http://www.serumwerk.com/en/ is the only supplier I have ever recieved stuff from (it is EU subsidised here in Germany). 
here is a site describing a make your own brew with nice photos of what we get or here
basically 3-5ml per frame with bees. 30ml for a small colony, 50ml for a strong one.

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## madasafish

I did a H&S Assessment for myself when doing sublimation  and concluded that you should NEVER do it where third parties can be exposed to the smoke drift....minimal though it may be.
Because the risks to third parties can be directly attributable to you as an individual personally. And OA crystals in lungs is very rare outside beekeeping! :-)

So no visitors, wind in correct direction and great care..

I live in a semi rural area with neighbours on one side so unlikely to hurt them but I would not treat if they were in their garden.

My view is it would be unsuitable to do it in an training apiary with others present who do not wear masks.


I suspect it may very well bring about a major accident - all you need is  damp OA not to sublimate, sublimator withdrawn too early and operator error/overcome by fumes and others affected.
It would make a great tabloid story..

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## Calum

among other places, I have 5 hives in my front garden, very visible from the street. 
My little ones are always at my heels when I am at the bees, especially in winter when I always have a flask of cocoa and a jam piece with me.

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## The Drone Ranger

Confirmation Bias 

I mentioned it in another thread (it also got a mention on BBC Luther the other week)

That's where you start with an opinion and read everything only noticing the the parts that confirm your views
I'm trying (unsuccessfully sometimes) to avoid that 

So I'm inclined to the view that if you trickle and your happy thats fine 
If you sublimate and are happy that's fine 

It only starts to get tricky when one group try to impose their view on others 

Let's see how many deaths or serious injuries are attributed to oxalic acid each year??

We can Google it https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl...acid+poisoning
How about bee stings then  https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl...s+of+bee+sting

Oh dear! quite a lot more for the bees! 
In fact the score would appear to be 
Bees several hundred  ---- Oxalic acid zero 
So the bees well out in front there

Perhaps its bees we should be concerned about, they seem to be a far greater danger to children old folk and the beekeepers themselves than oxalic acid
How could we have missed that ??
Relax just tell the VMD or whoever asks there is no problem apart from the usual dimwits who will probably have been stung to death anyway  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Confirmation Bias 

I mentioned it in another thread (it also got a mention on BBC Luther the other week)

That's where you start with an opinion and read everything only noticing the the parts that confirm your views
I'm trying (unsuccessfully sometimes) to avoid that 

So I'm inclined to the view that if you trickle and your happy thats fine 
If you sublimate and are happy that's fine 

It only starts to get tricky when one group try to impose their view on others 

Let's see how many deaths or serious injuries are attributed to oxalic acid each year??

We can Google it https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl...acid+poisoning
How about bee stings then  https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl...s+of+bee+sting

Oh dear! quite a lot more for the bees! 
In fact the score would appear to be 
Bees several hundred  ---- Oxalic acid zero 
So the bees well out in front there

Perhaps its bees we should be concerned about, they seem to be a far greater danger to children old folk and the beekeepers themselves than oxalic acid
How could we have missed that ??
Relax just tell the VMD or whoever asks there is no problem apart from the usual dimwits who will probably have been stung to death anyway  :Smile:

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## Calum

Drone, nothing wrong with what you wrote, 
read this

(very)summerized: 
Inhalation: Inhalation of oxalic acid produces irritation of the respiratory tract, ulceration of the mucous membranes, headaches, nervousness, cough, vomiting, emaciation, back pain (due to kidney injury), and weakness. 

For me trickle method is less likely to result in inhalation
Vape away all you like, put a gas mask on, and do it well away from me!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Drone, nothing wrong with what you wrote, 
> read this
> 
> (very)summerized: 
> Inhalation: Inhalation of oxalic acid produces irritation of the respiratory tract, ulceration of the mucous membranes, headaches, nervousness, cough, vomiting, emaciation, back pain (due to kidney injury), and weakness. 
> 
> For me trickle method is less likely to result in inhalation
> Vape away all you like, put a gas mask on, and do it well away from me!


Hi Calum 

You should be safe enough in Germany  :Smile: 
I only use 2grms 

Heres one on Lactic acid
http://www.dogee.org/lab/chemicals/915.pdf

The UK health and Safety exec recently reviewed the Short Term Exposure Limits  STEL's for a number of chemicals including Oxalic Acid (to line up with European standards) and retained the existing STEL the 15 min limit in the workplace is 2mg/cubic meter unchanged
That still sounds like a heck of a lot to me for a 15 min exposure limit 
I'm working on 2grms to the Hectare  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Hi Mellifera,
> I find my trainees respond very well to a mead I make from the capping honey  ...


Oh, that's the trick!  I'll stop feeling sorry for them then, and hope to try your recipe myself one day.  It might help me with my own overwintering on this hill of mine.

Kitta

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## busybeephilip

I suppose if you want to be safe and stand well back up wind then use DR's fab multi light  Oxi - timer

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## alclosier

Out of interest does OA cling to clothing in the vapour form? This could be another risk to the careless user of the vapour method.

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## Beefever

I also have a genuine concern that crystals of vaporised oxalic acid will coat the interior of the hive, so making un-gloved inspections inadvisable.  That’s not to say dribbling method could do the same but being in a dilute syrup, I’d hope for a better outcome.

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## busybeephilip

> Out of interest does OA cling to clothing in the vapour form? This could be another risk to the careless user of the vapour method.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk



The vapour will condense on anything that is cooler than the sublimation point of OA.

It has been reported (somewhere) that vapourizing gives better results than trickling, I imagine that this is partly due to the vapour crystallizing in the whole interior of the hive including the bees themselves and as the colony expands over the frames in the spring the bees will be in contact with OA for a  longer period ie you would get a longer exposure but more dilute as the bees clean the frames.  It would be interesting for someone to estimate the dose dynamics of this and its action on residual varroa mites and even on new mites infesting the hive from outside sources

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## madasafish

> Out of interest does OA cling to clothing in the vapour form? This could be another risk to the careless user of the vapour method.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk



Crystals of OA will settle on clothing. But frankly to get significant numbers, you would have to be exposed for minutes. (Remember treatment advice is to block all hive entrances for 5-10 minutes).

To be that kind of exposure is possible if you were unconscious in front of the hive, which was unblocked and the vapouriser had just started and the wind was blowing the wrong way.

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## alclosier

Thanks intrigued by the topic as it is something I know nothing about!

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## The Drone Ranger

> The vapour will condense on anything that is cooler than the sublimation point of OA.
> 
> It has been reported (somewhere) that vapourizing gives better results than trickling, I imagine that this is partly due to the vapour crystallizing in the whole interior of the hive including the bees themselves and as the colony expands over the frames in the spring the bees will be in contact with OA for a  longer period ie you would get a longer exposure but more dilute as the bees clean the frames.  It would be interesting for someone to estimate the dose dynamics of this and its action on residual varroa mites and even on new mites infesting the hive from outside sources


Hi Phillip
from my own observations heres how it works
The Oxalic vapour permeates the hive and rapidly returns to a crystalline form now as very fine crystals
These crystals form on the hairs of the bees and on the hairs of the varroa
Varroa have pads on the end of their legs which is one reason the bees struggle to dislodge them

The Oxalic crystals cling to the pads on the end of the varroa legs/feet (and mouth part/legs)
As varroa move over the bees and the other hive surfaces they collect more crystals damaging the pads
They fall off the bees 

If you put varroa under the microscope (spent one freezing Winter doing that)  you will see the crystals stuck on their pads very clearly
Also you will see crystals on the varroa carapace which will help destroy them but through a slower action

This effect goes on for about 3 weeks where you will still find varroa with crystals on the carapace and possibly legs

The bees meanwhile don't sit ignoring the crystals they simply groom them off 
Varroa however can't groom the crystals off without them sticking to their feet

The bees are unharmed by the treatment , the varroa are destroyed

I'm not a scientist, just a fat guy with a microscope, and enough patience to check things out for myself

You might have read elsewhere how bacteria found on varroa might eventually allow them to become resistant to oxalic
That is repeated by people who have no idea how it works but like googling

P.s. Leslie Neilson is dead again according to recent twitter posts (first time was 2010)

Bees wont ingest oxalic acid, so Ill just say that now, to save someone posting that they will eat the crystals (I googled that by the way  )   :Smile:

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## Kate Atchley

> from my own observations heres how it works ... The Oxalic crystals cling to the pads on the end of the varroa legs/feet (and mouth part/legs)
> As varroa move over the bees and the other hive surfaces they collect more crystals damaging the pads
> They fall off the bees.
> If you put varroa under the microscope (spent one freezing Winter doing that)  you will see the crystals stuck on their pads very clearly
> Also you will see crystals on the varroa carapace which will help destroy them but through a slower action


Fascinating Drone Ranger. Thank you ... and for having time and the mic to see it for yourself.

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## busybeephilip

DR thanks for that, interesting information

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## fatshark

> The components that comprise the other 11% of Api-Bioxal powder are 
> 
> Colloidal silica hydrate
> Glucose monohydrate 
> 
> This comes from the product information on the VMD website:
> 
> https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/Product...ationDatabase/
> 
> ...


Ask and ye shall receive ...

160124-16.jpg

This is a Sublimox that has been used twice (1.6g each time) to vaporise Api-Bioxal. It was a mess ...

More shortly.

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## madasafish

> Ask and ye shall receive ...
> 
> 160124-16.jpg
> 
> This is a Sublimox that has been used twice (1.6g each time) to vaporise Api-Bioxal. It was a mess ...
> 
> More shortly.


Reminds me of the cylinder head of my first car - a 1929 Riley 9 Monaco fabric saloon. Lots of carbon build up.

That's what you get from burning poor petrol and OA with sugar (in AB).

Designed to ensure a regular sale of Sublimox :-)

My used for 10 hives home made one is perfectly clean as it is only used with pure OA... (for official records, I am treatment free)  :Cool:

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## The Drone Ranger

Crikey that's a mess fatshark

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## fatshark

Last post was a bit rushed ... I've posted further details elsewhere.
The Sublimox cost more than the original 1929 Riley 9 ... but doesn't look half as good  :Wink: 
If anyone has pictures - or knows of them online - of a passive (_i.e._ Varrox-type) vaporiser after using Api-Bioxal I'd be very interested to see them. 
What on earth is the glucose for in Api-Bioxal ... ?
Remember that the recommended dosage for Api-Bioxal vaporisation is 2.3g, ~50% more than used in the photo above. So, potentially, 50% more mess  :Frown:

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## The Drone Ranger

You are very modest fatshark
Your site is a really great resource and so well put together
Thanks for the link 
Very thought provoking and amusing at the same time
Your point about temperatures is something the bent pipe and blow lamp might take note of

I watched a video where a guy was sublimating above an open mesh floor (simulated I suspect)
It could be a case of the blind leading the blind ( possibly literally)


I haven't checked with Kate A about her below the Paynes Nuc mesh varrox

I have found that the thick stainless mesh just stops the vapour and cystalises it 
The black epoxy coated stuff I use on varroa floors which can easily be cut with scissors is fine

I have always told people if they have an OMF which isn't above a solid floor and can be sealed they best reconsider using the evaporation method 
What does the Sublimox manual say ?  what do you think yourself

Possibly you could leave a spun sugar decoration on each hive to show it has had the apibioxal

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## SDM

When you talk of temperature, are you referring to the breakdown of OA at higher temps ?

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## The Drone Ranger

> When you talk of temperature, are you referring to the breakdown of OA at higher temps ?


Do you mean in the web page article SDM ?

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## fatshark

> When you talk of temperature, are you referring to the breakdown of OA at higher temps ?


OA is reported to breakdown to formic acid and carbon dioxide if 'overheated'. Whether this might happen when applying heat from a blowtorch is not clear - and I doubt anyone has bothered to measure it. There are other postulated routes of breakdown as well. I'm more than happy to be corrected, but am satisfied my vaporiser reaches the right temperature to administer Api-Bioxal and caramelise glucose.

DR - thank you for the kind words. All of my hives have OMF's. All of them also have an 8mm hole through the edge lip of the floor, perhaps 5-10mm *above* the OMF. I close the OMF with a piece of Correx (underneath) or - for a few floors made by Pete Little (which are far better constructed than I could ever make) - with a purpose-built slide in Varroa tray that makes them almost airtight. I close the entrance. Almost all my hives have a perspex insulated crownboard. I lift the insulation out but don't open the hive, slide in the Sublimox, invert it and within seconds the hive is filled with OA vapour. After 30s I remove the vaporiser. The OA vapour continues to circulate for a minute or so. Here's the view from above ~10s after starting. This colony had a block of fondant on - hence the eke and the inverted crownboard. I've never seen OA crystals deposited on the OMF though I rarely bother looking. I'm sure they are, but not in huge amounts. I tend to treat on days where the temperature is at least 10oC.

I've no idea what the Sublimox manual says as it's in Italian  :Wink:   However, there is a section headed _Fabbricazione delle decorazioni di zucchero filato_ ...  :Confused:

----------


## busybeephilip

Hi FShark,  I think that them sublimox kits are around 300W @ 12V so will easily reach 200 degrees C, well above the sublimation point of OA.  I dont believe that you would have a significant amount of conversion to formic as the apparatus is vented and the OA vapour that is rapidly produced  escapes immediately down the tube into the hive.  Out of curiosity, have you measured the temperature that the device attains before you do the inversion ?

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## fatshark

I've not measured the temperature. They are ~300W, you're right ... however they're carefully temperature controlled. The 'at temp' light goes on and off as it maintains the correct temperature. Hivemaker (I think) posted pics of the electrickery in the machine on the BKF. I've not opened it and I barely recognise the electrical bits. I don't think it will go over 200C as the temperature is regulated to stay in the correct range.

I also agree that in an 'open' system the material should sublimate before any breakdown occurs. However, whether this also applies to a blowtorch and bent copper pipe I've no idea ... and no intention of finding out. There's discussion elsewhere on the web about temperatures reached at localised surfaces - such as applying a 1400oC blowtorch to a copper pipe. This is all well outside my area of expertise (if there is one). There's enough to take care of already when vaporising ...

----------


## Pete L

> Hivemaker (I think) posted pics of the electrickery in the machine on the BKF.


Pictures in post 109 of this thread.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ll=1#post33730

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## gavin

I'm starting to think that fatshark is some sort of mole for the BKF  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue: .  (I'm not really, just enjoy making him squirm sometimes ..... ) 

Thanks for the reminder Pete.  I hadn't been paying attention either when you posted that earlier.

Is anyone up to identifying whether the components include something that will detect temperature?  Being at the working end of a sublimator must be a really challenging place to site some electronics expected to last.

----------


## busybeephilip

interesting pictures, big blue box looks like a relay, turns on and off the 240V to the heater, would have expected to see a fuse!  Heat sink for rectifier leading to perhaps a voltage controller probably 5V to supply the PIC that controls temperature, LEDs, and sound? it must beep as well as light up.  Could be copied.

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## Pete L

The controls are sort of in the handle of the gadget, two wires run from this box, a thick armored lead to the heat ring and a smaller armored wire which i assume is for the temperature thermostat.

Have had someone trying to make these things, easy to source or make the parts, but not the electrical controls on that circuit, it is made specially by the company apparently.

For anyone thinking of buying a bigger faster sublimator I was speaking to a beefarmer friend (Mark Evamy) up in yorkshire a couple of days ago, he has bought one of the super vm sublimators as mentioned earlier in this thread.

This comment is from him on the website... “All in all the machine was everything I hoped for.”
Mark,
United Kingdom – 10/29/15

http://www.vmvaporizer.com/

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## fatshark

> http://www.vmvaporizer.com/


Gavin ... buy one of those ... with a reasonable breeze you could stand somewhere in the Ochils and treat most of the colonies in Fife  :Wink: 
Can you imagine the cost of Api-Bioxal to run that puppy?

PS BKF 'mole' .... !

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## The Drone Ranger

Within reason you could measure the input voltage and current and be pretty sure of the temperature at the other end
The resistance is rising in proportion to temperature

A Varrox heats up relatively slowly so passes through the temperature required for sublimation at a fairly sedate pace (little video posted)

You can waste a lot of battery power by leaving it connected longer than it needs




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## madasafish

> Gavin ... buy one of those ... with a reasonable breeze you could stand somewhere in the Ochils and treat most of the colonies in Fife 
> Can you imagine the cost of Api-Bioxal to run that puppy?
> 
> PS BKF 'mole' .... !



It would run about 10 minutes and then block with carbon from the sugar.

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## SDM

The blow torch method wouldn't have any problems. With OA breaking down. It can only happen under pressure, much more pressure than a bent pile could generate.

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## The Drone Ranger

> The blow torch method wouldn't have any problems. With OA breaking down. It can only happen under pressure, much more pressure than a bent pile could generate.


That's good to know SDM I thought it was based on purely on temperature 
ie once you get above 180C you are past sublimation and into breakdown/conversion

poked around a bit and not being a chemist I don't know what's right or wrong
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp9638191
this would sort of indicate that Oxalic can go to HCOOH which I think is Formic
and at higher still temp goes to Carbon dioxide Carbon Monoxide and water
Cant say though because its all way over my head 

Googling is fatal usually because you end up like this with something you cant make much sense out of

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## nemphlar

They seem to be producing the chemical changes by adding energy to OA in its gas phase, whereas we are moving it to the gas phase and then cooling

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## RDMW

I used the varox sublimator today for the first time, it was well made and looked like it would last for years.  It is expensive and only used once a year so I may keep borrowing one rather than buying.  An ideal purchase for a bee keeping group.  I bought my own 3M respirator though (not so nice to share)

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## mbc

http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html

Scroll down to the bottom of this page and you get to the jb700, a professional version of what I've made, a 12v oxalic sublimator which blows the gas in to the hive.  Quite exciting I think (hands up to being a bee nerd!)

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## The Drone Ranger

> http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html
> 
> Scroll down to the bottom of this page and you get to the jb700, a professional version of what I've made, a 12v oxalic sublimator which blows the gas in to the hive.  Quite exciting I think (hands up to being a bee nerd!)


They can't patent that mbc because you already put it in the public domain  :Smile:

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## mbc

I'm sure they could argue the case that there are one or two differences. I'm not fussed anyway, I'm pleased beekeepers are finally getting some practical choices of varroa control which doesnt involve too much ongoing expense.

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## mbc

If you'd like to argue my case for me though and negotiate a chunk of reimbursement for r and d expenses feel free  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

When we leave the EU will we be able to use oxalic acid again instead of the claim jumping clone Apiboloxal ?
Or will it become compulsory to buy expensive Neurofen instead of Ibuprofen

Also can somebody tell me how patent law works in the area of treatments

As I have always understood it in other areas, lets say long handled shoe horn or some invention

The applicant is granted protection under the patent from commercial copying and selling of their great "invention"
In return the design details are published in full and the right of any individual to make one of the said shoe horns for his personal use is permitted legally

Also the patent should demonstrate that the idea is not already in the public domain so the shoe horn would probably not get a patent anyway

How in the name of all common sense has Apiboloxal been granted a patent ?

If that is the case can I manufacture my own by tipping some sugar and other unnecessary stuff  into oxalic acid to match the magic formula ?

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## Black Comb

My varrox timing gadget arrived today, only ordered on Saturday afternoon.
I haven't tried it out yet but it looks well made.
Thanks DR.

Of course I will be using Apibioxal. :Smile:

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## busybeephilip

Not sure about patent either but i reckon it covers someone making up the api boloxal formula and selling as somit else.  I would also check the alledged patent on an online patent search, it might not even be covered in the UK and if not then you could make and sell no problems till de cows come home.  Not sure if a patent could be extended to other counties now that the idea is out in the open.
I have found many things that are supposed to be patented actually are not,  sometimes the patent has never been renewed (lapsed) then its a free for all.
then there is "patent applied for" which means just that but it has not actually been granted but protects the inventor until the application is refused.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My varrox timing gadget arrived today, only ordered on Saturday afternoon.
> I haven't tried it out yet but it looks well made.
> Thanks DR.
> 
> Of course I will be using Apibioxal.


Hey well done Black Comb
That's hand crafted in Scotland  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Not sure about patent.


That's the thing 
If its not patented than how come I can't use my own clone has it got something to do with it being a veterinary medicine 
I can't see the logic in saying it is licensed but Oxalic acid which contains only one ingredient (the essential one) is not legal
Perhaps if it was an Xray machine, and I had built my own one, there's some argument as to whether I could Xray somebody
But that's a matter of competence
It's a racing certainty that is someone else applied for approval with the same main ingredient they would get a licence as well
Bureaucracy gone mad

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## prakel

> It's a racing certainty that is someone else applied for approval with the same main ingredient they would get a licence as well
> Bureaucracy gone mad


I'm not sure that it's really a case of what is/isn't in a mixture. The problem seems to be that once they've paid their money then they've got a reasonable right to expect their licence to be protected. This then places the spotlight firmly on the authorities. If you take protection money then you'd best offer that protection when needed....

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## The Drone Ranger

This is a clip from Hive clean which I haven't used myself but it shows how messed up the system is

Dear Customer,*
After many years of successfully helping beekeepers rid their colonies of Varroa Destructor Mites,*HiveClean*can no longer be sold in the UK. After lengthy discussions with the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) we have agreed not to sell or import and more*HiveClean*after the end of October 2016.

The reason given is quite simple and it is that another company making an oxalic acid based treatment for Varroa has paid the VMD for a registration of its product in the UK which now makes oxalic acid (and formic acid) medicinal by function and therefore any product containing these ingredients must get authorisation from the VMD to sell or use it in the UK. Unfortunately for us*HiveClean*contains minute amounts of both as active ingredients and therefore must now be authorised. For us, the cost to register*HiveClean*is so prohibitive (in the region of £30,000) that it would no longer be financially viable for BeeVital, Austria to supply the UK.

BeeBay would like to thank every one of its customers for their support and apologises if anyone has been inconvenienced by these latest events. We do assure you that we will still be serving your beekeeping needs with organic products to protect and feed your honey bees. Please watch this space.

Please also feel free to protest to the VMD about this decision, should you so wish.

Veterinary Medicines Directorate
Woodham Lane*
New Haw
Addlestone
Surrey
KT15 3LS



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## busybeephilip

Thats where the problem is 

Oxalic acid in its pure form can not be patented so no one can make a lot of money out of something that is so cheap and readily available and so simple to use.    So companies put pressure on vet medicines, gov etc so that they can produce a "controllable" safe product - add a bit of harmless extra eg sugar,glucose or whatever then you have something to patent,  Insist that your product is safe to use, protects the environment, safe for honey,vet approved,  Gov approved , registered, advertize,   bla de bla  and youre making money !

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Phillip
I cant blame Brussels because some EU bee keepers can use AO 
Its a UK issue it seems 

I'm going to buy the big £61.50 (a whole 350grams) bag from Thornes
That's going to last me 4 to 6 years evaporating, or half that time trickling
Oh no ! its stamped  Expiry 31/07/2018 

Raining today, suffering from SAR (seasonal affected rant ) waiting for delivery, and visitors later  :Smile:

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## fatshark

> I'm going to buy the big £61.50 (a whole 350grams) bag from Thornes


While you're waiting order a 25 kilogram sack of this ... at the rate you use it this will last until 2373 ... for about the same price.

Whatever happened to the SBA's discussions with the VMD about Api-Bioxal?

I suspect entire swathes of beekeepers are going 'treatment-free' on the assumption that the powers-that-be don't have the HPLC and expertise needed to measure OA residues in wax and honey, which are already present at high levels anyway and which naturally disappear pretty soon after treatment by trickling (as measured in a NZ study).

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## The Drone Ranger

You can save half the cost of the apibioxal from you SBA subscription  :Smile: 

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## madasafish

> While you're waiting order a 25 kilogram sack of this ... at the rate you use it this will last until 2373 ... for about the same price.
> 
> Whatever happened to the SBA's discussions with the VMD about Api-Bioxal?
> 
> I suspect entire swathes of beekeepers are going 'treatment-free' on the assumption that the powers-that-be don't have the HPLC and expertise needed to measure OA residues in wax and honey, which are already present at high levels anyway and which naturally disappear pretty soon after treatment by trickling (as measured in a NZ study).



My honey  -taken from comb by BI- is being analysed. I expect results in January.

I'll write to you from jail...

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## The Drone Ranger

I once sent 100 mites to SASA expecting them to use them when they were checking for virus load

So they sent me the results "99 mites were found in your sample" (they though it was a floor sample)

Confusion aside 

It means one of them came back to life or became a zombie and escaped 




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## The Drone Ranger

> My honey  -taken from comb by BI- is being analysed. I expect results in January.
> 
> I'll write to you from jail...


I bet it's being sold as a homeopathic midge bite cure in some health food shop somewhere, not analysed at all  :Smile: 

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## busybeephilip

I bought my 25kg bag about 5 years ago, still lots left even after giving some away to friends.  I should have tried a bit of gas liquid HPLC on the honey to see what was in it but never got around to it and now retired so cant.  

So mode of action of oxalic  - I reckon it builds up in the bees body and kills phoretic mites when they feed on the bees blood, this makes sense  eg  if you dribble the bees lick the stuff up and injest it,  if you vaporize the bees lick the fine OA powder off each other and the hive surfaces resulting in an oxalic acid build up in the bee.  Perhaps thats why the OA treatment of choice will continue to kill mites for many days (7 plus) after application

So one OA treatment mid winter (no brood) kills 98% of all mites while it takes at least 3 treatments when there is brood present so as to kill all the mites during the brood /mite rearing cycle.  (this is probably in the bollixall  product fine print  hee hee )

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## busybeephilip

The big question is, and I dont know the answer,  How many mulitple OA treatments (eg oxalic vapour) can be given to a varroa infested hive when there is brood in it without ending up with dead brood and bees ?

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## fatshark

Lots* Here's a quote from Randy Oliver's website:

_Does vaporization hurt the bees?

Radetzki didnt note increased bee mortality after winter treatment. Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology Ltd. says: We treated several colonies for 3 months during winter, once a week with the vaporizer and all colonies survived. With brood, colonies can be treated with the right amount of OA 3 to 4 times, a week apart; there is no harm to bees, queen or brood. Medhat Nasr confirms that vaporized oxalic is very gentle to the bees.
_
Re. mode of action ... there has to be something more to it than killing mites through feeding. OA treatment of a swarm (no brood and phoretic mites only, the majority of which are unlikely to be feeding) really hammers the mite population.

* I also have experience to support this

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## busybeephilip

FS ..Good to hear that , I've been torturing my bees , one hive in particular is getting double doses, with OA vapour using my new fangled "submox" clone - my new best friend  :Smile: .  I have certainly been overdoing it, its a really good queen whose drones I was using for breeding and don't want to loose them this winter.  Certainly drops the mites ! and so far nothing bad has happened to the bees or brood,  I'm convinced this is the way to go making dribbling a thing of my past.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Philip
Cant say for the action of dribbling they may well eat that 
but if you vaporise them there are minute particles of oxalic acid landing in the hive
They land on the bees , the hive parts, and the varroa

If you collect mites which have fallen off and died then put them under a microscope you will see these tiny crystals on the hairs and carapace
If you look at the varroa legs you will see great clumps of crystals on the ends on their feet
After evaporation in Winter you still see this effect for up to 4 weeks after treatment 

Bees can groom and they just brush the crystals from their hairy bodies they don't eat them (as far as I know)
They might pick up more from frames and other bees but they are not harmed by them

Varroa can't groom effectively and when they do the crystals on their bodies just stick to their feet
If they walk on the bees then crystals stick to their feet as well
Apparently their mouth parts are also damaged but I didn't see that under my microscope examinations

I often see people suggesting things like 3 oxalic treatments 5 days apart in Summer etc
 I can't see the point in that, because a simple Api-life var biscuit takes minutes to put on, and is better suited to the time of year

I have both the Varrox and the Sublimox and, this Winter, I'm sure I will survive using the Varrox on a 12V battery with timer
I'm less confident of seeing another birthday dragging 250 volt power around in the snow and mud to operate the Sublimox

Expect to see a Sublimox sold by Mrs DR on Ebay next Spring if I decide to chance it  :Smile:

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## fatshark

There's reference somewhere on the same pages from Randy Oliver that doses of 1.4g and 2.8g were indistinguishable in efficacy. Perhaps it's shown on the graph? With good distribution of vapour around the hive - as you'll be achieving - I'd opt for the lower doses unless you have evidence more is better. More important to ensure correctly repeated treatment to catch the little beggars when they emerge from sealed cells. The scoop that used to be supplied with the 500g tubs of OA from Thorne's was a convenient 1.6g which, if you're using Api-Bioxal with the included anti-caking agents and glucose (and have the time to clean your vaporiser afterwards ;-) ) is almost exactly 1.4g of OA. Convenient.

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## fatshark

How much does your 12V battery weigh DR? I run my Sublimox off a portable 700W generator that weighs 8.5kg and runs for long enough to treat dozens of colonies (which, if Mrs. FS is reading this, I'll vehemently deny).

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## The Drone Ranger

> How much does your 12V battery weigh DR? I run my Sublimox off a portable 700W generator that weighs 8.5kg and runs for long enough to treat dozens of colonies (which, if Mrs. FS is reading this, I'll vehemently deny).


Lol !
That's lightweight hope it's waterproof as well  :Smile: 

Seriously though
5 deaths from stings 172 from electrocution per year 
That's why all on site professional tools are 110V or cordless 
250V outside in our Winter climate needs care

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## fatshark

Winter climate? Fife? Get away! In contrast, the Angus hills visible from the North Fife Hills this morning are covered in snow (and looked lovely). 

Bees properly clustered today and it's finally cool enough to start preparing some soft set honey.

PS Don't worry, I take care. My flip flops have thick rubber soles ...

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## The Drone Ranger

If you get a chance to collect some dead varroa after treatment FS stick them under your microscope 
I haven't done it in recent years
At the time I didn't realise I could just hold the lense of a compact camera on microscope eyepiece and take a photo

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## busybeephilip

electrocution -  Ive been giving that some thought as well.  I have made sure that my clone is well earthed.  At home this is ok as the cable is connected by extention lead to the domestic mains so earthed and has that trip switch thingy.  When I get around to going to going out into the bush with a portable machine (yet to be selected)  I was planning on sinking a 4 foot earth rod at the apairy sites and making sure this is connected to the system.  You can get them in screwfix for a few quid.
Electricity is dangerous stuff, i had a friend who tinkered with solar panels, batteries and feeding juice back into the grid using home made PIC devices, it just took one mistake.

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## busybeephilip

> If you get a chance to collect some dead varroa after treatment FS stick them under your microscope 
> I haven't done it in recent years
> At the time I didn't realise I could just hold the lense of a compact camera on microscope eyepiece and take a photo


Just had a look - a week since 3rd OA treatment and a significantly reduced mite fall, had a quick look under the mic, could not see any crystals on the mites  but then after 7 days maybe that would be expected, also seen male mites and many white immature mites probably due to bees uncapping remaing drone bood but very little pupal brood debris (although still a few drones about).  Think I'll give this box another final dose later today.  outside temp in the shade 1 meter above ground is 7.8C (using a Hanna K thermocouple thermometer HI9043) and bees are flying !!!

----------


## gavin

> Whatever happened to the SBA's discussions with the VMD about Api-Bioxal?


One thing that came of that was the finding that the teleconference facilities on offer at the VMD weren't good enough to sustain a meeting with about 5 folk dialling in from across the UK.  The bullish attitude to forcing full compliance on the use of oxalic acid was not coming from the VMD but the strongest voice in that direction was that representing an organisation purporting to represent 'British' beekeepers.  I was disappointed by that.  Our loyalties should not be to companies that have paid out to get their product registered in the UK.  My impression of the VMD activities were that they had been pragmatic and helpful (to the beekeeping community) with their approach to OA up to that point. 

As far as the difficulties of using Apibioxal in sublimators, someone at some time (might have been in advance of the annual VMD bee meeting) pointed out that you can line your sublimator with foil and all will be well.   The question on the concentration of the trickling solution (when made up according to the instructions) being higher than the usual method had been addressed by a bee inspector trying it and finding it to be fine.  Other than that, the rules are the rules.

Oddly, this year I really am not going to use oxalic acid.  My (legally obtained with a veterinary prescription) Polish Biowar went in late and I don't think any kind of oxalic acid treatment will be worthwhile.  Next year I'll probably be using Apitraz 500 from the same supplier.

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## busybeephilip

one point - Lining sublimators with foil sounds like a good idea, but you will get a reduced heating effect leading to reduced vaporization rate, better just to wash or scrape it out after use.  Also, if the linning is not a perfect fit you might find it hard to remove the foil due to spillage and end up with a real mess.  just my opinion.

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## busybeephilip

> Next year I'll probably be using Apitraz 500 from the same supplier.


OK till you get a resistant population of which there are reports of this happening.

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## The Drone Ranger

> one point - Lining sublimators with foil sounds like a good idea, but you will get a reduced heating effect leading to reduced vaporization rate, better just to wash or scrape it out after use.  Also, if the linning is not a perfect fit you might find it hard to remove the foil due to spillage and end up with a real mess.  just my opinion.


Sugar makes a mess right enough so I suppose a lot of people might go back to the insecticidal strips for a while till the situation gets sorted out
Not sure that's the direction the VMD should be moving beekeeping though ?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Just had a look - a week since 3rd OA treatment and a significantly reduced mite fall, had a quick look under the mic, could not see any crystals on the mites  but then after 7 days maybe that would be expected,


I think there were still crystals 3 weeks after treating Phillip but it was 8 or 9 years ago now so I can't swear to it
What will be different at the moment is the amount of grooming because as you say the bees have been very active right through October
In the Winter all the mites are out on the bees and the bees themselves will take a lot longer to remove all the oxalic crystals (dust) 

I'm going to have a look at some varroa myself in December when they get treated 
Hopefully the burning sugar in the apibiolax won't do the bees any harm

----------


## fatshark

> The bullish attitude to forcing full compliance on the use of oxalic acid was not coming from the VMD but the strongest voice in that direction was that representing an organisation purporting to represent 'British' beekeepers.  I was disappointed by that.  Our loyalties should not be to companies that have paid out to get their product registered in the UK.


That's very disappointing. Understandable (perhaps) if it was a superior product, but in my view it is not - based on side-by-side real-world usage following the instructions provided by the manufacturer. You'd have hoped that the British beekeeping organisation might have viewed the continued access to an inexpensive and effective treatment might have been beneficial for  bee health, rather than increasing cost 1000-fold* for something that's no safer, no more effective and demonstrably less easy to administer. I wonder why they were so keen to force compliance?

I think the foil liner _might_ just about work with the Varrox-type machines which are essentially passive. I'm less sure it would be suitable for the Sublimox or equivalent where you drop the crystals directly into the pan by inversion of the machine. Unless there was very good contact between the foil and the pan there's likely to be poor heat transfer.

Oh well ... I've tried using up some old OA bleaching wax**

Biowar is Amitraz by another name isn't it? I don't suppose the Brexit discussions are going to feature continued cascade down access to this sort of this as a high priority. I've still to see well-documented evidence of Amitraz resistance (but would like to if any readers have it).


** Blatant exaggeration care of "Trump-stats" ... actual comparison is about 0.5p/dose for Oxalic acid _vs._ 28p/dose for Api-Bioxal, buying both in bulk.
* don't bother  :Frown:

----------


## Pete L

> I wonder why they were so keen to force compliance?


Could be something to do with a [senior person in the BBKA] assisting the makers of Apibioxal to bring the product to market!

----------


## mbc

> Could be something to do with a [senior person in the BBKA] assisting the makers of Apibioxal to bring the product to market!


Shameless

----------


## prakel

> Shameless


+1. Not much else can be said.

----------


## alancooper

> outside temp in the shade 1 meter above ground is 7.8C (using a Hanna K thermocouple thermometer HI9043) and bees are flying !!!


It was close to 8C here the other day and calm - also  there was much bee activity and ivy pollen loads being brought in (10am to 4pm). Activity at low temps is related to low wind-speed. September weather was not good but  the mild, calm-ish Oct with quite a bit of sun, coinciding well with much ivy flowering, brought a great deal of honey - yummy.

----------


## busybeephilip

Perhaps not post in the correct place but... has anyone tried OA / glycerin cardboard strips ?   http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?t=7965  the method has also been published in apidology .....

Apidologie
July 2016, Volume 47, Issue 4, pp 596–605
A new formulation of oxalic acid for Varroa destructor control applied in Apis mellifera colonies in the presence of brood

The authors claim 93% efficient  WOW !!!!

----------


## Pete L

> The authors claim 93% efficient  WOW !!!!


Interesting, I like it , but less so when reading the last post in the other forum that was linked.




> cardboard strip with O.A. during winter
> 
> Dear  Giovanni and Ernst
> 
> Hope you are fine !
> 
> We have passed winter with good results of our Cardboard Strips Soaked into a Solution of Oxalic Acid in Glycerol (Food Grade).
> 
> We used it as we described.
> ...


http://teca.fao.org/discussion/varro...thods-fight-it

----------


## The Drone Ranger

The thing I fear is that Apibioxal is causing people to move away from the simple effective Winter evaporation 
This method has been researched studied and used for many many years and demonstrated to to be safe for bees and consumers
Sure beekeepers have to take steps to protect themselves I stand miles away and use an automatic timer
The dosage is known and minimal to get the job done

Trickling is fine but I found when the bees are on two broodboxes they are not always where you want them to be 
So if they are in the bottom box what then? Take the hive apart to get to the bottom?

Apibioxal might be licenced and that has stopped the rest of us using oxalic but it is doing more harm than good 
Especially if it means methods using higher doses over longer periods start appearing

So that's Oxalic evaporation  gone as a method I'll have to treat in Spring with thymol for 4 weeks or so with Apilife Var
Not ideal

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## GRIZZLY

Depends if you are prepared to flout the "law" and use common sense or be prepared to be ripped off by daft legislation.

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## Black Comb

I used DR's timing gadget over Christmas and it worked a treat.

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