# General beekeeping > Scaling up and marketing >  Farming Today

## gavin

You've heard about 'the bee decline' now hear about the bee farmer decline.

'The bee farmers are as under threat as the honeybee'.  Hmmnnn .... does that mean that bee farmers are not really under threat at all then?!  

Murray McGregor: in most other European countries bee farmers are heavily supported by the state in various ways.

'We'd like to see far more support for the professional bee farming sector.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj8q

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## drumgerry

I on the other hand would like to see less!

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## The Drone Ranger

Surely the agument would be if it's not an economic proposition don't do it
Find a job doing something else

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## Poly Hive

Ok........ why? What issues do you have with people wanting to or doing pro beekeeping? 

Discuss.

PH

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## drumgerry

No issue with people wanting to do pro beekeeping.  Issues with huge subsidy for them to do it.  Issue with continual imports.

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## Poly Hive

Sorry but the import issue and bee farmers is not always on the same sheet. There are loads of amateurs who love imports. Further and this may be heresy but AMM is not perfect.  :Wink:  More I can say this with some confidence as I have been on both sides which is more than many can claim. LOL

PH

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## drumgerry

You maybe didn't hear in England about the Scottish Government's award of £200,000 to bee farmers to "restock" after their "terrible losses" in last year's "bad winter".  That's £200k worth of imports as far as I can tell.  Slightly more than your average amateur is bringing in.  Naebody's saying AMM's perfect Polyhive (at least not on this forum).  Just that it's more worthy of funding and breeding effort than foreign strains.  Not sure why £200k of taxpayers money should be going to the queen breeders/package producers of Slovenia or elsewhere.  I hesitate to say more as we have gone over this at great length during the last months when you weren't around.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi folks

I think a poll on whether you are in favour of subsidies for bee farmers YES or NO would be interesting
This could be linked back to some of the discussion threads if that would be useful  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

Go for it DR!

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## mbc

> Hi folks
> 
> I think a poll on whether you are in favour of subsidies for bee farmers YES or NO would be interesting
> This could be linked back to some of the discussion threads if that would be useful


There are so many ifs and buts its not a simple poll.
For instance, IMHO if British beefarmers were operating on a level playing field then my answer would be NO,  there shouldnt be any reason for them to get subsidies, but patently the situation is far from a fair and level playing field with competition in the honey market coming from countries where bee farmers do enjoy substantial subsidies and/or lower costs of living.
I imagine a similar poll conducted in ten years time when most of our current beefarmers will have retired and the financial rewards too slim to attract many newcomers, then the results would be an overwhelming YES.

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## The Drone Ranger

I understand your concern mbc but at the end of the day there are lots deserving cases for subsidy
Not sure there's a strong case for bee farming 
perhaps a poll with more options ?

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## mbc

> I understand your concern mbc but at the end of the day there are lots deserving cases for subsidy
> Not sure there's a strong case for bee farming 
> perhaps a poll with more options ?


Who could be more deserving than bee farmers ?
All the not so hidden benefits of having robust pollinator populations make bee farming the most deserving of all occupations to subsidise IMHO.

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## drumgerry

"Robust"?!  Didn't you hear about bee farmers being practically wiped out last winter in Scotland MBC?  Maybe in Wales it's some sort of commercial beekeeper paradise but up here not so much.  And "most deserving"? - in the words of that great tennis player -"You ca-NNOT be serious!"  One example of more deserving than your bee importing, foreign bee producer-supporting bee farmer - the upland or remote crofter/farmer.  Keeping them going stops our country being a depopulated, unproductive wilderness.  We live in very different countries MBC as may be pointed out to you by rather a lot of us in September 2014.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Who could be more deserving than bee farmers ?
> All the not so hidden benefits of having robust pollinator populations make bee farming the most deserving of all occupations to subsidise IMHO.


Hi mbc
One thing about subsidy is that it is given to the existing operators and would not encourage new entrants just shut them out
I'm not convinced by the pollination argument because as I have said before the commercial bees spend most of their time collecting honey.
Oil seed rape is already subsidised farmers are getting that money, so if pollination service is helpful to this wind pollinated crop then perhaps they can give some to the bee farmer.
Heather plants live for 30 years plus they don't need pollination services
The things that do need pollinating like fruit are ignored by honeybees if there is a better nectar source around and the growers are already prepared to pay for pollination services.
Of course in our climate the soft fruit is moving under plastic and better pollinaters like bumble bees take care of that end of things
So that brings me to is there a case for subsidy because Beekeeping can only survive with subsidy and I think that's a no there are thousands of beekeepers in the UK
Is beekeeping a major employer in the UK -no it's seasonal work for migrant workers mostly
Is the product of the activity essential to our well being again no there is no case here
The best route for a commercial beekeeping sector to become profitable is rationalisation then which means fewer and bigger operations with greater efficiency
Sadly that brings us back to closing the door on any new entrants to professional or semi professional beekeeping
The truth is that the British climate is not one where people can expect to make a living from a seasonal activity like beekeeping 
At some point the BFA are going to tell one porky pie too many about the demise of the honey bee and the collapse of civilisation as we know it 
In the end calling "wolf" every five minutes is counter productive as I have said before and there may be backlash
Long Long post sorry  :Smile:

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## Pete L

> The truth is that the British climate is not one where people can expect to make a living from a seasonal activity like beekeeping


Don't know about others, but i have managed to make a living from beekeeping for a lot of years now, and employ others, and i rear my own queens... and have never received any kind of financial help, like grants or subsidy.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Don't know about others, but i have managed to make a living from beekeeping for a lot of years now, and employ others, and i rear my own queens... and have never received any kind of financial help, like grants or subsidy.


You have my great respect pete for suceeding against the odds  :Smile: 
I like pure bred chickens (not enough to buy many though)
There are one or two people make a living from breeding those and selling hatching eggs etc.
I honestly don't know how they do it. 
 I think they usually have a "proper job" as well
Contrast that with the guy who fixed my patio door -- he turned up, lifted the door out fitted two roller things, drunk tea and got £250
No wonder I cant afford a bee suit and sadly won't be contributing to Mr Mc or anyone elses coffers without a bit of screaming  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

Don't get me wrong.  I believe in funding!  I believe that businesses/charities/individuals should get help for things which benefit the greater good and even make them some profit into the bargain.  There's nothing wrong with that.  And if bee farmers are doing things which society gets a benefit from then they should get help if they need it.  But as far as I can see they or most of them are not.  If they were to put subsidy money not into importing replacement stocks/queens but into a long term sustainable future for themselves and for Scotland's bees I'd think better of them.  But no what the country really needs is an endless supply of cheap OSR honey - NOT!

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry
Is there a case for alpacca subsidy, I would be more well disposed to them because they are fluffy, put some goodness back in the ground, and reduce the environmental impact of lawn mowers.
They are apparently excellent shepherds and don't attract as many flies as cows 
Plus Einstien also said that once the Alpacca goes we follow 5 years afterwards ...or was that bees... or neither

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## drumgerry

There's sweet fanny adams for us alpaca types I'm afraid.  They are good at decreasing fox predation on lambs although personally I'd want a llama (those dudes can be scary).  Sorry but you're wrong on the fly front.  Great billowing clouds of the little sods hang around especially if it's a wet summer (when the only company the flies have are AMM queens and drones out mating!!).

If the alpaca goes I think it's the three toed sloth that follows shortly afterwards - according to Einstein anyway!

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## mbc

> "Robust"?!  Didn't you hear about bee farmers being practically wiped out last winter in Scotland MBC?  Maybe in Wales it's some sort of commercial beekeeper paradise but up here not so much.  And "most deserving"? - in the words of that great tennis player -"You ca-NNOT be serious!"  One example of more deserving than your bee importing, foreign bee producer-supporting bee farmer - the upland or remote crofter/farmer.  Keeping them going stops our country being a depopulated, unproductive wilderness.  We live in very different countries MBC as may be pointed out to you by rather a lot of us in September 2014.


I try and be mindful of the fact things are a bit different up there, but surely even in Scotland, bees ( even imported bees from the 'dark side')provide invaluable pollination not just to cultivated plants but also all the wild flora, which in turn benefits everyone in supporting more fauna for grockles to come and gawp at while staying in pricey hotels..  How about subsidising crofters to keep bees ? There'd be no need for dedicated bee farmers then and it would ensure the countryside would get adequate pollination.

I strongly support devolution, but dread your lot going your own way as it would leave the rest of us even more London-centric than at present  :Frown:

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## Easy beesy

Heard recently that BFA & government are offering apprenticeships and mentoring to <25s to encourage them to become bee farmers - how about extending that to people over 25 who want to up their game and try to make a go of smallholding or crofting?

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## drumgerry

Of course honeybees regardless of point of origin will pollinate plants wild and cultivated. Incidentally I live in one of those reasonably rare places where there are only garden plants if we're talking about cultivated plants and, as we are a sparse lot here in Strathspey , gardens are few and far between.

I don't want to see the extinction of bee farmers - honestly!  What I want is for them to operate in a way which is sustainable and can function without resorting to imports.  If they sort that out you won't hear a word against them from me.  I'd even argue for them to be subsidised to achieve that!

Oh and I maybe shouldn't say any more about Sept 2014 as there'll be a many and varied opinion on here on the subject.  Shouldn't have brought it up in the first place really  :EEK!:

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## Trog

> Of course honeybees regardless of point of origin will pollinate plants wild and cultivated. Incidentally I live in one of those reasonably rare places where there are only garden plants if we're talking about cultivated plants and, as we are a sparse lot here in Strathspey , gardens are few and far between.


Just been driving through your neck of the woods (to East Coast and back); saw very little of interest to bees.  OK, it's winter, but I got the impression there wouldn't be much in those fields even during the foraging season.   :Frown:   Hope you have some nice uncultivated land around your apiary.

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## drumgerry

There's plenty to be honest in season Trog.  The main honey forage plants are clover from the permanent grazing and of course the annual heather "bonanza".  Clover was superb this summer and sales of the honey have been helping with the weekly shopping ever since!  And there's plenty of other lesser plants to keep the bees going at other times.  Plenty of sycamore, wild raspberry, whins, rosebay, bell heather.  If you happen to live in the upland areas of Strathspey though pickings will definitely be slimmer.  I am lucky in that I live next to the Spey and there's lots of wild forage all the way along that.

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## The Drone Ranger

This is Bulgaria where beekeeping is subsidised (and regulated)
Anyone fancy a switch to their system ??

http://www.questbg.com/lifestyle/lif...e-keeping.html

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## drumgerry

Slightly dodgy translation which probably makes it all sound more onerous than it actually is.

But I'm liking this....."Neither can you set up a hive within 10 km regions with registered pedigree bees or for the production of elite queen bees and reserve apiaries. You cannot set up your hive within 5 km of regions with registered reproductive apiaries for the production of pedigree queen bees" !!

The distances likely aren't big enough though.

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## The Drone Ranger

Not sure about this, but I think all queen breeders have to be registered as well
Somebody more well read than me will know
I like the freedom we have here
The BFA can't just cherry pick subsidy and say it happens in Europe

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## The Drone Ranger

http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/resourc...rters_2009.pdf

Is there a form of subsidy at work already for imported bees?
The cost of veterinary checks seems low at £5-00
perhaps that's necessary to stop avoidance ?

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## The Drone Ranger

Still investigating the claim that European beekeepers are subsidised
Certainly not a clear cut thing
It would appear that Bulgaria there is some subsidy
But you can't own more than 150 hives
You need a beekeeping license
You need permission from the local mayor
there a several restrictions on where you can keep bees 
They don't appear to allow bee imports in Bulgaria
You have to buy queens from a registered queen breeder
There are rules to restrict migratory beekeeping from coming close to existing beekeepers etc
There are penalties for selling queens and bees without a license
Course some one who has done more than just a bit of web searching might be able to fill in the details
On the face of it though the Bee Farmers Association  couldn't operate as they do in Bulgaria
The rest of us might be due a subsidy but they wouldn't (in fact they might not exist)

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## The Drone Ranger

Spain Has Subsidy but as far as I can tell it's an EU backed program and only applies to the production of organic honey
The honey production is very strictly monitored and taxed
It seems that like many places in the developed world that beekeeping is not permitted in urban environments

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