# General beekeeping > Starting out >  Looking for a bit of Moray advice

## Hoomin_erra

Hey all.

I started beekeeping in June when i got a 4 frame nuc. These decided 3 weeks later that it was time to swarm, and i had about 10 Queen cells and no Queen. I A/S'd them into 2 small colonies. The Quen in one has just started laying, and i'm hoping on inspection this weekend that the other would have started.

Now.......

In 2 weeks time i move up to the Cabrach, which i am told has "interesting" winter weather. I'll leave the bees on the heather until september, but the question is then what?

Will my bees survive the Cabrach winter with fondant and insulation over the crownboard? Or do i need to find a spot further towards to coast to give them a better overwintering chance?

----------


## Jon

Bees are ok in the cold as long as:
1. There are enough bees in the colony to keep the cluster warm. If the cluster is small reduce the space in the box with dummy boards or move to a smaller box.
2. There are enough stores to see them through the winter - 30lbs for native type and much more for prolific bees such as carniolans or Italians.
3. The box is adequate, preferably insulated at the top.
4. The bees have been treated for Varroa in early September allowing the subsequent production of healthy bees to overwinter. A December or January Oxalic acid treatment is also useful.

People keep bees in much colder places than Scotland. It is damp which kills rather than cold.

----------


## gavin

I suppose that the climate at 300m altitude in Cabrach will not be that different from higher spots in other places.  People successfully keep bees at altitude here and there (I'm not quite sure how high though) and also in sheltered spots in otherwise exposed places including Lewis, Mull, Orkney and even Shetland, so you ought to be able to do it in Cabrach.  

Drumgerry - are you still reading, and is your situation similar?

You might need particularly hardy bees, ones able to fly and gather the goodies when conditions are less good.  Also frugal bees that get by on less stores than others.

If your small colony split into two has only just started laying, then I think the chances of them surviving the winter are low.  You will really struggle to build up colonies that size into a decent size for winter.  May be better to unite them now and feed 1:1 syrup for the rest of the summer and autumn, aiming to get them almost filling a brood box by early September.  I think that your problem may be the small number of bees in each split, and a small number means a slow build up to a decent size.

I would choose a site carefully when you get up there.  Sheltered, warm and sunny if possible.  

My bees are near sea level though, so what do I know?!

G.

----------


## Hoomin_erra

Regards uniting. If i have no eggs in the other hive this weekend, they will be getting united via the paper method. Food is not an issue. The amount of stores in these hives are incredible!!! Was thinking of leaving the super under the brood over winter. And shelter should be ok, there is a wee gully with fir trees that i could place the hives in to stop the 100mph winds the place apparently gets off the Cairngorms.

I would love to be able to have local hardy black bees. Unfortunately there were none available down where i am. It's something i am looking at for next year. (Hint Hint) Hoping that if i am secluded enough i will be able to start my own little AMM sanctuary!!

Regards overwintering. Another option is that i will still be working down in Edinburgh during the week, so i could feasibly keep the hives down here over the milder winter, and then bring them up in the spring.

----------


## drumgerry

Sorry guys - just caught up with this thread.  My situation is somewhat different.  I'm at a much lower altitude and in a very sheltered site.  A bit too sheltered maybe as it holds the frost for too long.  And then there's the snow.....  But you can't have everything.  The area around Cabrach is just about as different as can be from the area around, say Forres or Elgin and a fair bit different from the more inland area where I live

My advice, which seems to be the most commonly given on beekeeping forums, is get in touch with your local association.  Moray Beekeepers are a friendly bunch and we'll do all we can to help you.  I'm reasonably sure there's a member, if not directly up on the Cabrach, very close to it.  Ask Tony the secretary to put you in touch with her.

I wish you the best in overwintering your bees.  They don't sound like local stock and tbh that's what you're going to need where you're going to live.  Again get involved with MBA - we're starting a queen rearing/bee breeding programme next year all being well and hope to make locally adapted bees available to members.

Not sure if there's varroa on the Cabrach but I hate to say if there's not you'll probably be bringing it in - again check with Tony the MBA secretary. I don't have specific knowledge about that area.   There probably is varroa already as everywhere else in Moray has it but at that altitude I don't know.  You'll be in a bit of a situation if there isn't varroa.

Whatever you decide I wish you lots of luck and if there's anything I can do to help just give us a shout.

Cheers

Gerry

----------


## Hoomin_erra

Cheers Gerry. I'll get in contact with MBA and see what Tony says.

As for what stock the bees are, i have no idea. I got the nuc from a beek in Edinburgh, but he had no details on genetics.
Recently another beek asked to use some of my pictures for a talk he was doing, and he commented on how dark they were, so you never know, they may be more local than i knew.

----------


## drumgerry

Well they sound like local mongrels rather than carniolans or italians - which is good!  Shame you're not already in Moray as we have one of our monthly meetings on Sunday.  Or if you're coming up soon come along to one of the Association Apiary open sessions (although you'll need to join MBA to do so).  The timetable for the monthly meetings and open sessions is on the MBA website.

You can PM Tony on here (ajtony I think is his username) or contact him through the MBA website.

Cheers

Gerry

----------


## Hoomin_erra

I've emailed tony. Will talk to him about joining when i speak to him.

This sunday will have to skip. We only move up next weekend. But will definitely be along to an assoc meeting as soon as i can.

Glad to hear they might be locals. Hopefully they'll cope better with the Moray winter then.

----------


## Donald

Hi there - I think that you should be very cautious about moving your bees north - if they have come from Edinburgh then they will certainly have Varroa, and there is a risk that you could be moving foulbrood too. Pass your bees on to a beekeeper where you are coming from and get local bees when you move north - anything else is taking a risk with other people's bees - there are enough problems for bees without beekeepers adding to them unnecessarily.

Donald

----------


## Hoomin_erra

But i only bought them in June!!!! :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown: 

Is this the same Donald from ELBA And yes, the bees came from Edinburgh. They were a Nuc i bought from Mr Biggar. And then split in early july.

But if people think that is the best option, can you put the word out in the ELBA newsletter that there are 2 nucs on smith frames?

----------


## Jimbo

Hi Hoomin_erra,

Just surfing the forum and came  across your post about not knowing if your beees are native black. If you want I can do a quick drawwing morph plot on them for you which gives you the percentage of Amm characteristics in your colony. Just e-mail me if you would like it done and I will send you details of how to collect and send the sample etc 

Jimbo

----------


## Donald

Yes this is Donald from ELBKA - hope I didn't advise you to buy bees here and then move them north ...... I do think it would be best to sell them on to people here (maybe you could make a profit ....) and get some local bees up north - contact the local secretary in Moray and see what they think but I know what my answer would be if I was the secretary. If you do want to sell, tell Jo Dodds (and / or the Edinburgh Association) and she will alert the membership that there are bees for sale.

Donald

----------


## Hoomin_erra

No, you didn't advise to buy and move. We weren't expecting to move north so soon, but the dream arrived sooner than expected.

I'll contact Jo and tell her to pass the word. :Frown:

----------


## gavin

Alternatively you did say that you could perhaps overwinter them near Edinburgh.  That would give you a chance to get in touch with local beekeepers and find out their Varroa status.  As for foulbrood, probably at least as big a risk in the Cabrach as in the Borders.  But  - in general - local is best.

----------

