# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Distribution map of native and near-native bees

## Stromnessbees

How much information do we have so far about the distribution of native and near native bees?

Could we put it together and create a simple map like this one for Germany?

http://nordbiene.de/hier-fliegen-dunkle-bienen.htm

Apparently it is run by the webmaster who enters the placemarks. 

We might need to use 2 different colours, one for the near-natives and one for the very pure ones.

Doris

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## Jimbo

Hi Doris,

There has been interest in this by John Durkacz and myself. John would like to repeat the work by John and Morna Stokley where they showed colonies in Scotland of pure native breeds. We did discuss the possibility of mapping the colonies with Donna Clark from Moray.
I agreed to check wings using Drawwing for beekeepers from the West and John would do the East. We still need somebody for the North and South
I did a survey of 10 beekeepers and 35 colonies in my area in 2007 and plotted the distribution. Beekeepers come and go so I repeated the survey again in 2009 and found the distribution had changed to the detriment of the near native AMM. It would still be good to identify pure black colonies so if anybody has any ideas on how to set up the survey I would be interested.

Jimbo

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## Stromnessbees

I wouldn't make it too complicated:

The basic map should be easy enough to set up, and then anybody with dark bees who wants to be on the map sends their details.

I would volunteer to do it but have lots of things on at the moment and shouldn't get involved in anything new just now. 

Anybody else interested?

Doris

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## Jimbo

Hi Doris,

The possible way forward with this is for the SBA exec committee to consider this project and through the SBA association secretaries and area reps collect the samples from club apairies and from their members. The bee inspectors may possibly also be recruited to collect samples.The samples could be sent to a central collection point and stored in a freezer until there is time for the analysis. A nice winter project. The SBA could also try to get funding for such a project i.e through the Co op to pay for postage etc. The results could also be sent to BIBBA as part of their Discovery project.

Jimbo

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## gavin

Google Maps doesn't look too difficult.  Maybe I could put something on the home page?

But what?  Is a map of Amm records enough?  How do we define sufficient purity to make it onto the list - morphometry only?  Personally I think that eyeballing a colony tells you a lot, and adds something to morphometry data.  Could we make a link from a Google Map placemark (made suitably slightly vague) to an image of the plot, or even better of the bees themselves?!

But what would we get from this?  A map of dots that just show where the enthusiasts are?  That is one reason why Jim's more ambitious plans make sense - gathering a larger sample of data.

What about recording *all* bees known to us - are they Amm, near Amm, mongrel, mostly Buckfast, carnica, caucasica, ligustica, could we all tell the difference?  Wouldn't that be more informative?  Something for the wider SBA membership too?  I've wondered about trying to make a decent guide to the races for publication on the site, as it is hard to find the information anywhere.

An SBA group would be good.  Is John D going to propose this?

best wishes

Gavin

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## Stromnessbees

Gavin and Jimbo

If you try to do a perfect job here, which you both are of course used to due to your professions, we'll never get this done. All we want at the moment is a rough idea of places with native bees to start with. The refinement will come over the years. Once there are a few dots on the map people can start to get in touch with each other and more (and more accurate) information will follow as the ball starts rolling. A bit like this forum it will develop it's own dynamic once it's given a chance. 

Doris

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## gavin

Ha!  You've got me sussed.  Except ... here's a very imperfect job:

The Native Honeybee Distribution Map

Let's try it after shrinking via TinyUrl.

OK, its working now.  Really scary though!  I've seen Doris' address in a periodical that dropped through the door in the last few days, and I've deliberately plonked the link a couple of hundred metres away from her place.  If you keep clicking on the map, you can see the garden plants that her bees will have access to - fuchsias and sycamore must be two high on the list, plus that yellow-flowered silver leaved sprawling thing.  If you've clicked on the map and arrived at street view then just birl the street view around a bit and you can see a man lifting potatoes! 

Truly weird.  

I've now added a Tayside site.

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## Trog

> What about recording *all* bees known to us - are they Amm, near Amm, mongrel, mostly Buckfast, carnica, caucasica, ligustica, could we all tell the difference?  Wouldn't that be more informative?  Something for the wider SBA membership too?  I've wondered about trying to make a decent guide to the races for publication on the site, as it is hard to find the information anywhere.


Really good idea to have an identification guide ... with photos and points to help identification such as are found in bird guides.

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## Jimbo

Hi Gavin/Doris.

A good starting point for this would be to repeat the Stokley's work that was done in I think the late 80's. John Durkacz has I think all the original data although I don't know if it was plotted on a map. John did send me a set of results from this study to look at taken from a colony in Tongue in the 80's? in Sutherland which was 100% AMM. The question is. Is there still pure AMM in this area and in the other areas that the Stokley's tested.
The method of testing has changed with the advent of computers and scanners so I would first do morphometry to do a quick check and if the results looked promising use the other charateristics to determine if they are pure. The problem with all these projects is getting the beekeepers on board to give you a sample to test. 

Jimbo

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## Stromnessbees

Hi Gavin,

again you seem to be ahead of me: 


> I've seen Doris' address in a periodical that dropped through the door


???

Fuchsia and sycamore are spot on. Back at my proper address you'll see my car with the Ghanaian flag inside and a window-cleaner in action on his ladder.

Well, this looks like a useful start. The google map is a bit over-accurate, and to use the markers off-centre is a good idea. 

So how do we add sites, do we contact you in order to get them added?
And where is the best place for this map, we can't just leave it in this thread?

I also like Jimbo's idea of an identification-guide for the different types. I sometimes wonder how dark a bee has to be to be a dark bee?  :Embarrassment: 

Doris

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## gavin

The latest SB has a list of secretaries of local associations.  Just had a look at the German site and one placemark pointed straight at a house but others were less likely spots for apiaries.  I guess that he's moving the exact site.

Saw the window cleaner at the sweetie shop!  Quite a busy day in downtown Stromness.

I could probably set up something on the home page to show this permanently ... but do we want to reveal sites of native stocks?

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## Stromnessbees

... I see!

On Google Earth different types of placemarks can be chosen and placed to hover high above the site, that way the true location cannot be identified, which would be preferable. But I don't know if this works on Google Maps, too.

I don't know how to upload a link to Google Eath here. ?

If the location we give is only very approximate, why shouldn't we show those sites? We don't need to give the names of the owners, just a reference number maybe?

Doris

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## gavin

I was about to say: no, you can't do this with Google Earth, and at work we instead offer a download of a Google Earth locations file for the potato collection I look after.  But having just checked it seems that I'm wrong and you can now embed GE in your own web site, and have your own layers showing.

Worth looking into more.

G.

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## Trog

I've heard that thieves are already using GE to target apiaries (and other things, obviously).  Do we really want to publicise which areas might be most valuable (assuming that dark bees are inherently more valuable to anyone other than officionados, that is!)?

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## Clark23

> Hi Doris,
> 
> There has been interest in this by John Durkacz and myself. John would like to repeat the work by John and Morna Stokley where they showed colonies in Scotland of pure native breeds. We did discuss the possibility of mapping the colonies with Donna Clark from Moray.
> I agreed to check wings using Drawwing for beekeepers from the West and John would do the East. We still need somebody for the North and South
> I did a survey of 10 beekeepers and 35 colonies in my area in 2007 and plotted the distribution. Beekeepers come and go so I repeated the survey again in 2009 and found the distribution had changed to the detriment of the near native AMM. It would still be good to identify pure black colonies so if anybody has any ideas on how to set up the survey I would be interested.
> 
> Jimbo


Hi all,

have just joined the forum and started checking out the morphometry posts after advice from Doris.

I went down to the BIBBA morphometry workshop with Jimbo and John. Excellent course, learned a lot and am now doing small-scale morphometry in my own area. Am happy to take on any morphometry needing done and also to get involved in mapping as I know about GIS. 

Donna

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## Stromnessbees

Hi Donna and welcome aboard!

Your input, especially with regards to the mapping, will be very much appreciated.

Doris

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## Jimbo

Hi Donna,

Welcome! I have just sent you an e-mail telling you to look at the forum site and have just discovered you are here already. It will be great to have your imput on mapping.

Jimbo

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## Alvearium

Great to see the interest being taken in the Native Bee! I had a visitor to our apiary the other day who commented that he had second brood boxes on and in some cases the third. There I was struggling to get by on a single brood as the winds have been cold and the bees just want to take their time. I did feel a little small but then I realised that my bees might be true local bees and they will not take off until they feel ready. I have completed my morphometry for last year and the results showed reasonable native characteristics and now I will have to check all over again to see what has happened with the new queens mated last year.

It is 17 years since the Stoakley survey showed that 33% of the sampled colonies were typically native and 33% were near native. This survey was spread well around Scotland but importantly , the sampling of hives within apiaries was random. These gratifying results were spread around Scotland. I see from the posts that people have been asking what to do next. Here are a few ideas to mull over:
1. Repeat a random survey and compare the results. Is the situation better or worse for the Dark Bee?
    Or are we just wasting time?
2. Make focussed searches for the Dark Bee so that good breeding stock can be located. This could be 
    done at Local Association level and then these stocks could be assessed for behavioural 
    characteristics and future shared breeding plans developed.
3. Develop a coordinated more sophisticated survey which would collect data to use in negotiation
    with the Scottish Government to set up safe zones for Apis mellifera mellifera. The recent huge bee
    losses and expected re-stocking by importations might just scupper the chances of Amm survival in 
    many parts of Scotland.
Here is what John Stoakley had to say back in 1997;
'...........if I wanted to persuade the authorities that such and such a region, however defined geographically, was particularly suitable as an "Amm- only zone" I would want to be able to show not just that it had a lot of Amm colonies in it but in a respectable scientific way that it had a high incidence of such colonies proportionate to the total population of colonies in that region. To obtain this information I would divide the country into a number of regions of suitable size .......and compile a list of many willing beekeepers....and known feral colonies...............From each list I would select a number of beekeepers strictly at random and then ask them each to provide one or more colony samples, again at random, from within their apiaries. With populations sampled in this way, proper statistical analysis (analysis of variance) would make it possible to say that such a region or regions, have a significantly higher incidence of Amm colonies than others. It might then be possible to home in on results to search for breeder colonies or make a concentrated search in a given area.'  

However JS was very practical and though he favoured the idea of a safe zone for Amm he doubted there would be the political will for this and that enforcement would be near impossible.

Alvearium

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## Stromnessbees

Welcome to the forum, Alvearium!

Interest in the native bee is growing, indeed.

2010 is the International Year of Biodiversity and funding for a project to conserve the native bee might be available: http://www.hlf.org.uk/news/Pages/Fun...ityin2010.aspx (I know, I have posted this link before)

The grant could be used to do a proper study on distribution, and those data could then be used to lobby for protected breeding areas for native bees, like they have had them in Switzerland for 30 years already.

Doris

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## gavin

> However JS was very practical and though he favoured the idea of a safe zone for Amm he doubted there would be the political will for this and that enforcement would be near impossible.


I'm not so sure sbout the need for pessimism regarding the political will.  May have more to say on this tomorrow!




> . Here are a few ideas  to mull over:
> 1. Repeat a random survey and compare the results. Is  the situation better or worse for the Dark Bee?
>     Or are we just  wasting time?
> 2. Make focussed searches for the Dark Bee so that good  breeding stock can be located. This could be 
>     done at Local  Association level and then these stocks could be assessed for  behavioural 
>     characteristics and future shared breeding plans  developed.
> 3. Develop a coordinated more sophisticated survey which  would collect data to use in negotiation
>     with the Scottish  Government to set up safe zones for Apis mellifera mellifera. The recent  huge bee
>     losses and expected re-stocking by importations might  just scupper the chances of Amm survival in 
>     many parts of  Scotland.


Both 1 and 2 meantime, maybe 3 if someone has the funding?  I like the idea of a random survey as it would give a good honest picture.  Don't be too pessimistic about stocks surviving in areas of previous imports, though I do have to say that talk of high levels of imports in 2010 worries me. 

best wishes

Gavin

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