# General beekeeping > Alternative beekeeping >  Top bar hive seduction!

## Pufff

Hello all! I seem to have become braver as I have become wrinklier! I am now very keen to have a couple of hives!

I have happened upon a lot of info on top bar hives and am intrigued! My concern is that Scotland may be a bit chilly for this type of hive? I wondered whether building the sides out of 2 inch thick wood, and filling both ends with wood shavings in the winter would be of benefit in this respect? 

Does anyone have experience of this type of hive in Scotland?
Thanks!

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## gavin

Welcome, Pufff!  Insulation in any hive is an issue in some winters, and Top Bar Hives may suffer from that more than most.  If you are going to modify a top bar design to improve it for colder climates then I'd also consider the top as that is where insulation is most effective.  I haven't tried one myself, but there was some discussion on here from someone who had (was it drumgerry?).  We're setting up an association apiary near Dundee and although we are not buying a TBH one member - in the true spirit of the thing - was hoping to make one from recycled timber.

The one thing that worries most established beekeepers is the ethos that goes with them.  Varroa is a serious problem, and whatever method you use to keep on top of them it has to be effective.  Some prominent TBH enthusiasts keep losing their bees because of their light touch with Varroa control.

all the best

Gavin

PS  There's nothing wrong with getting a bit wrinkly!

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The one thing that worries most established beekeepers is the ethos that goes with them.  Varroa is a serious problem, and whatever method you use to keep on top of them it has to be effective.  Some prominent TBH enthusiasts keep losing their bees because of their light touch with Varroa control.


Gavin, why would it be more difficult to manage Varroa in a TBH - particularly if it has a ventilated floor?
Kitta

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## gavin

Hi Kitta

Managing Varroa in a TBH is no different from managing it in a framed hive, it is just that some of the main proponents of TBHs also advocate minimal intervention for mites, and that is risky unless you know very well what you are doing.

cheers

Gavin

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## chris

Hello Pufff. Are you thinking of a horizontal TBH, or a vertical? One inch thick wood is enough for the climate here, which goes down to -20 in winter.

Gavin, my experience of people who drive BMW cars leaves me with a certain opinion of them. That doesn't mean that a BMW is not a beautiful piece of engineering which has the potential to be driven in many ways. :Wink:

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## POPZ

Puff, welcome aboard wrinkles and all! But I doubt if you can beat mine.

By coincidence, I got mine (TBH) out of store today, erected it, and photographed it as I have finally decided that it should be used for the purpose it was designed for, rather than storing things in! My reason is that I rather like the theory and idea of natural comb building. It will be very interesting the see the results over the coming season. That is, of course, I can provide some inhabitants. 

Regarding winter insulation, I will be using foam insulation board under the roof  and open mesh floor.

Good luck to you and look forward to hearing your results.

Richard

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## Rosie

When I first started beekeeping my plan was to try every hive design one by one and make up my own mind.  One of the designs I tried was the Dartington so I built two to give them a fair trial. I persevered with them for about 5 years before eventually giving up.  I came to the strong conclusion that, in our climate, bees don't like to store honey beside the brood.  They much prefer to store it above, probably so that they can take advantage of the warmth rising from the brood below to help ripen the honey.  This was in Derbyshire and in a climate that was much milder than the one I now enjoy in the mountains of Wales.

I suspect that Puff will find the same problem with a top bar hive in Scotland.

When you also consider the difficulty in applying oxalic acid, inspecting and extracting clean honey I wonder if they are worth even trying.  It seems to me that the only good thing about them is the fact that they don't need foundation but there is no law that says you must put foundation in a National, a Smith of any other conventional hive.

Half the fun of beekeeping is trying new stuff so I would not want to put anyone off a top bar hive but I would hate to think that the hype associated with them had misled someone into thinking they were better than they really are.

Rosie

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## Neils

I think that's what's put me off trying a top bar hive in the near future, the long design versus going up. But someone asking for a mentor was intending to use one and we've a couple of people with them also on the allotment so I'm hoping to get some hands on experience with them this year.

A lot of the sales pitch that goes with them from some of the "natural" crowd does worry me, but I do enjoy discussing them, especially with new beekeepers and making the point that a lot of what is claimed of a Top Bar can or just does also apply to any other kind of hive and is mainly down to the beekeeper. 

All that being said, I also agree with Steve that if it interests you and you've got the opportunity to try it out, go for it and see how you get on.

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## Jimbo

Hi Rosie,

Interesting it what you say about the Dartington. My mentor Ben is going to build one this year. When he was showing me his plan I thought there was boxes 'supers' on top. Will let you know how he gets on.

Jimbo

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## Rosie

You're right of course Jimbo - they do have supers, half size ones.  I used normal supers for mine and got some honey in when I fitted them early, before half the brood box was anything like full, but the experience showed me that they ignore the ends of a large box and can't wait to move up into supers.  With large 14x12 frames the AMM brood only needed about 6 frames so the rest needed to be filled with honey.  They much referred to chimney up the centre and put honey in the 6 frames above the brood.  In my standard 14x12 boxes the problems are similar but do not seem to be so noticeable although I do have to turn the supers around to make sure they fill completely.

Rosie

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... in our climate, bees don't like to store honey beside the brood.
> 
>  ... the experience showed me that they ignore the ends of a large box and can't wait to move up into supers.


I wonder if the bees would be more inclined to store honey beside the brood if the long side walls of the hive were warmer?  What I've read about poly hives is that the queen is more likely to use the entire frame right up to the sides than in wooden hives - so better insulated walls do make a difference.  If so, maybe Puff's idea of using 2" thick walls might help (as long as one doesn't want to move the hive around too much). I have wondered about that myself.
Kitta

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## drumgerry

I described my rather negative experience with TBHs in a northern clime in this thread 

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-this-one-off!

This summer I'm sawing the legs off mine and will use them as planters my herb garden!  Nuff said!

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## BenB

Hi Jim 
as you can see you've got me into this hi tech communication at last with all its funny vocabulary,(ok when you know how.)
However to Rosie et al I'm an ancient(in spite of this forum crediting me as a Junior) and I'm reducing my apiaries down my home apiary at the bottom of the garden (They tell me that that is where the fairies live) and I thought that would be an opportunity to try making a Dartington for the fun of it.
  Reading through some of the comments in this thread Rosie seems pessimistic; Pufff wants to have 2" thick walls( will also need reinforced concrete foundations to stand it on); POPZ has been using his as a storage box.
 Aw com on! Has some one any really useful information or experience with them before I take a trip to B&Q to get the timber.
BenB

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## gavin

Ben - the horizontal nature of the beast and the loss of heat surely makes these hives problematic.  Why not plan your trip to B&Q around one of these vertical alternatives, the Stewarton?!

Gavin

PS  You'll be a Junior here until you post perhaps 100 times, no matter what your age!

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## POPZ

Ben, go for it boyo. I have emptied my TBH of bits and pieces - most of which have gone into the bin! This because I believe that nothing ventured is very little gained despite all the sucking of teeth and whistling in the wind over TBHs (not sure whether I have got that right or not? no doubt I will soon hear!)

Anyway, after all the pessimism this has only made my decision even firmer - one horizontal TBH all polished up, a touch of linseed oil and we are raring to go. It will be interesting if nothing else.

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## gavin

> Anyway, after all the pessimism this has only made my decision even firmer ...


Excellent!  I like to see people going against the flow and doing it with their eyes open.  Hopefully you'll report back on your experiences Popz.  Write a blog on it if you have the time.  Mull as a seawatching/safari centre was being heavily promoted on the radio at lunchtime today, so maybe you'll have your hands full.

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## Jon

And don't forget that the TBH is actually more accurately known as the KTBH, the K in the acronym standing for Kenyan so double check the latitude of Mull. Does anyone remember that TV series called Daktari? I can still bring up the theme music in my head.

Edit.
Wow. Someone put it on youtube

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## gavin

Oh yes!  And Clarence the cross-eyed lion!

What about a heated TBH with some sort of electric blanket business, a bit like Finman on another forum and his centrally heated Italians that do so well in the Finnish long winter?

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## Jon

It's terrarium heaters Finman promotes for the hostile Finnish winter. I suppose you can probably get a long one for a KTBH but anyway I have heard that most terrapins actually go commando in Kenya.

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## POPZ

> And don't forget that the TBH is actually more accurately known as the KTBH, the K in the acronym standing for Kenyan so double check the latitude of Mull. Does anyone remember that TV series called Daktari?


Hey Jon. Have you not heard about the tectonic plate shifts? and I guess that Daktari must have been well before my time!

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## BenB

> Ben - the horizontal nature of the beast and the loss of heat surely makes these hives problematic.  Why not plan your trip to B&Q around one of these vertical alternatives, the Stewarton?!
> 
> Gavin
> 
> PS  You'll be a Junior here until you post perhaps 100 times, no matter what your age!


Gavin
To build a Stewarton I shall first need an HNC in cabinet making before going to B&Q.  I think I will still have a go at a Dartington for the fun of it.
If as I understand it's a matter of insulation to keep them warm, perhaps I could keep them indoors with the windows open!!!  On second thoughts the lady of the house might have something to say about that idea.
I wont be depending on the Dartington my polyhives will keep me going with reliability. 
Ben

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## Mellifera Crofter

Some time ago I found this design of a TBH that can be filled with insulation. Unfortunately I can't remember where, so I can't credit the designer.  It might be better than 2" walls.

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## lindsay s

Are the Kenyans ditching top bar hives? This is not an April fool.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12715806

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## Jimbo

After reading this story I think I will ditch the smoker and use the mongoose method to clear the bees. Saves on smoker fuel!

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## Trog

A flatulent mongoose might add an interesting aroma to your honey  :Wink:   I wonder if a ferret might do the job just as well?

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## Stromnessbees

Loved the story about the farting mongoose! Haven't heard about that before, despite having seen quite a bit of African beekeeping.

I'll definitely get my KTB going this year, as soon as I can get hold of a swarm.

One advantage of the KTB is that there is very little lifting involved. This makes it attractive for people who would have problems with the weight of full supers and who are not interested in a huge honey harvest.

Actually, anybody with back problems might like working with KTBs as they can be set up at a very convenient working height, so no bending down for inspections!

I think the bees, too, like the extra hight as it gets them away from the damper air near the ground. 

Pests like mice and rats find it more or less impossible to get to the entrance, especially if it's on the short side and doesn't have a landing board.
That means a mouseguard should be superfluous.

I'll let you know when I have the hive populated and how I get on with it.

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## madasafish

I started last yera with 2 top bar hives. Both have insulated roofs: we are some 150metres above sealevel in Staffordshire Moorlands and winters are cold, wet and windy. We had -19C in 2009 and -18C in 2010 winter. I placed old carpet underlay  (cloth type not rubber) on top of the topbars  under the roof and both survived...

It was so cols one hive had a frozen 4cm long  icicle of condensate coming out of the hive - from the wall past the Mesh floor.   I now have 3 plus 1 TBH nuc. The larger  4 ft one has a hinged roof which makes inspections MUCH easier and I will convert the others at some time over the winter..  All were varroa treated with Apiguard.. no oxalic acid.

They are carnies so v good natured but swarmy.. so I am in process of requeening...

I also have two warres as an experiment.. (more to come)

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## Neils

I've got a colony that's a Carnie cross and they're much grumpier than the italian crosses on the other apiary.

How you getting on with the warrés (ooh, I like the new Mac way of sorting out accented characters, just hope I got it the right way) and are you leaving them be or doing any sort of swarm management?

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## madasafish

Carnies? Well 2nd generation queens are v well behaved - so far. Next year might be fun..

The Warres were home built - as were the TBHs- and my building leaves lot to be desired.. Gaffer tape to the rescue!

No swarm control - so already one cast... I'll give them a year..and replace with TBHs.. if not a success.. I opened one up in hot weather and two combs collapsed... think I will go to semi  frames to try to avoid that...

I've gone from 1 hive in April 2010 to 6 now so the learning experience has been interesting... Our fruit this year has bumper crops- whether the weather or far better pollination I know not.

Trying to find ley lines in garden... I obviously can't dowse or there are none :-)

Like stromness above, the lack of lifting with TBHs is great.. Warres not so.. On the other hand, I used to weightlift when younger.. but that was decades ago.. Inuslated roofs. make a difference.. Knauf Insulation Board in roof- B&Q...

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## Neils

I had Roger "do" our apiary, I keep an open mind but I will say it was an interesting experiment when it comes to ley lines.

The nadiring aspect of warrés on top of the apparent difficulty undertaking swarm management (in an urban environment) are the two aspects that really put me off them, but always interested to hear how others get on with them.

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## Trog

What on earth do mythical ley lines have to do with keeping bees?  Or are those antennae on their heads really dowsing rods?

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## gavin

They're all the rage in the senior echelons of the the BBKA apparently.

 :EEK!:

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## Trog

Oh, well, that explains everything, Gavin ;D

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## Rosie

Roger Patterson is behind quite a bit of the ley-line interest in the BBKA having been convinced of their existence by John Harding.

Roger visited me last summer and tested my apiary and later some interesting stones I found buried under peat.  He found what he thought were ley lines criss-crossing my ground and correctly told me where he thought swarms might settle.  He later checked out my stones and declared that they were an ancient grave of a man between 20 and 25 years old who died between AD 900 and 950.  I was later visited by an expert from our county archaeologists department based at Bangor who poked about with a trowel for a while and told me there were 3 bodies under the stones which were typical of Christian burials of about AD900.

I have a scientific bent and still hence find ley line existence hard to accept but Roger has done enough to prevent me from dismissing it out of hand.

Rosie

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## Jon

Aye, but if Roger were a true oracle he would get that dysfunctional forum software on the bbka site fixed properly instead of faffing around with dowsing rods!!

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## The Drone Ranger

Dowsing is back on the agenda in place of morphetometry at my place
Along with Homeopathy and Phrenology I recon any bee can be classified quickly and easily into either indigenous or imported AMM

"A Wrackspurt - they're invisible, they float in through your ears and make your brain go fuzzy," she said. "I thought I felt one zooming around in here.luana.jpeg

Good old Luana the best SBA president we never had 
She will be missed

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## Neils

Apprently the Tories suggest that Homeopathy funding should be reduced to 0.000000000000000000000000000001p per year on the basis that it'd be far more effective than giving them £10,000,000

I'll get my coat.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Apprently the Tories suggest that Homeopathy funding should be reduced to 0.000000000000000000000000000001p per year on the basis that it'd be far more effective than giving them £10,000,000
> 
> I'll get my coat.


Outrageous --I think the health service should be abandoned in favour of slightly flavoured water -- think of the savings

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## Neils

Just perusing here again, jokes about water botherers not withstanding did any of the people who said they were going to try out Top Bar Hives give them a go and how did they get on?

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## Calum

Helping a starter here who made the mistake of topbar get something better.
Like my mentor said going to topbar hives is just ignoring all the advances in beekeeping since the introduction of the moveable frame (1768-70).
The newbie experience: Waste of honey (poor yield from pressing) and wax (destructive honey extraction), difficult to see if they are planning to swarm (unless you are experienced enough to tell from looking at whats going on in the entrance), bitter honey (when brooded honeycomb pressed) and higher possibility of pressing honey comb with brood still in it (doesnt happen when you uncap). For varroa treatment (removal of drone comb), and most other common manipulations (shook swarm, brood starter, rightsizing hive to colony size) a great step backwards.
Good business for beekeeper suppliers, they get to sell beginners a topbar in the first year, then get to sell them what they actually need a year or two later.

They are cheaper, but candles are cheaper than energy efficient lightbulbs too...

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## Jon

> Good business for beekeeper suppliers, they get to sell beginners a topbar in the first year, then get to sell them what they actually need a year or two later.
> 
> They are cheaper, but candles are cheaper than energy efficient lightbulbs too...


LOL. Good to see I am not alone in the cynics club.
I think top bar hives are a viable option if you are on a really low budget and are into happy clappy save the bees thinking, although come to think of it losses are often high. Mind you, there is the option of correx if you want to make a hive for next to nothing. The main problem with the TBH is the baggage which comes with it re. leave alone beekeeping and swarming themselves to oblivion. The great master and author of the barefoot beekeeper admitted on his own forum that he had been ´wiped out´and lost all his bees 3 times in the last 10 years due to non treatment of varroa in his top bar hives.

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## Calum

noone biting...  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... The main problem with the TBH is the baggage which comes with it re. leave alone beekeeping and swarming themselves to oblivion.  ....





> noone biting...


Ok, I'll bite: Tob-bar hives don't have to come with 'baggage' - not even a Warré which you can use with movable frames.  I haven't yet used one, so I can't answer Calum's points.  I've mentioned somewhere else that I'm building a TBH this winter (a long hive first).  Time's running out, but I hope I can still do that.  Maybe I can report back later in the year.
Kitta

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## Neils

Agree it doesn't have to come with baggage but by and large if not baggage it does seem to come imbued with magical properties too.  I think if it's accepted on its own merits as a box you put bees in with strengths and weaknesses like every other hive design then there's no problem with it. AS ever, would be interested to hear how you get on with it.

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## madasafish

I find life is easier without baggage.

I run my TBHs as I would run any hive: subject to its design limitations..

Since I am mean and build everything from pallets, they are ideal (I was edukated in Aberdeen and the meanness rubbed off:-)

I have OMFs closed off for winter.. and treat for varroa and have insulated roofs.. plus old underlay on top of the topbars.

Only -6C  the coldest this winter , -18C prior two winters .. and bees survived - so far.

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## Calum

> Ok, I'll bite: Tob-bar hives don't have to come with 'baggage' - not even a Warré which you can use with movable frames.  
> Kitta


Right enough no baggage, but tents don't have hot running water or flush toilets either.   :Smile: 
TBH are great for beekeeping in third world countries; they are an excellent way for people to start beekeeping for next to nothing providing a supplement to their incomes that can make the difference between their children going to school or not. If I ever win the lottery I'd love to go to the third world teach tbh beekeeping instead of the job I do now. 

But we dont live in the third world, and bees are under so much pressure here to survive, I believe it is important for the beekeeper to work rationally and have every option available to work his hives. That means for me moveable frames, swarm control using the tilt method (in my opinion the least invasive method). The increased efficiency in honey extraction and reuse of the wax (frames/foundation) pays for the baggage. 1kg wax is roughly equivalent to 4kg honey (so making them replace their own stores + removed wax is additional stress especially in autumn as these are the bees that should overwinter!).




> Since I am mean and build everything from pallets, they are ideal (I was edukated in Aberdeen and the meanness rubbed off:-)


thought about that myself, get pallets free from work too, but couldn't find any that wernt treated with something. Wouldn't like anything of the sort getting in my honey. If its oil based it will get in the wax, if its in the wax its in the honey.  :Frown:

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## Neils

I think on an inverse train of thought that giving bees "something to do" (i.e. draw out wax) can help reduce their impulse to swarm. I've absolutely no evidence to back this up, but even just in the supers, if they're building combs, they're occupied.  I tend to alternate supers, the first that goes on is comb to give them space immediately to begin to store nectar, subsequent supers will be a mix of drawn and undrawn combs until they're used up then they get empty frames (I don't use foundation in the supers) to draw.

I don't keep any comb in my hives for more than two seasons in the brood area or three in the supers. I've read a few things and heard from others than in nature a colony will tend to stay in-situ for 2-3 years after that point there is a tendency to "swarm out" and find somewhere new.

You don't get something for nothing so I'm sure that if they're building wax in the supers, that's jars of honey going "down the drain" but the relative quantity of nectar/sugar it takes to draw a pound/kilo of wax seems to be rooted in folklore rather than cold hard fact. As I don't rely on honey for my income I can cope with losing a couple of jars of honey in exchange for new, clean wax in the supers in brood boxes.

Maybe I should get a top bar hive  :Big Grin:  Does it count if I turn it vertically as I still think that for the UK the biggest problem with it is that it's a long hive (ignore the bulky nature of the thing) and bees like to go UP not sideways.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Maybe I should get a top bar hive  Does it count if I turn it vertically as I still think that for the UK the biggest problem with it is that it's a long hive (ignore the bulky nature of the thing) and bees like to go UP not sideways.


Yes, that bothers me as well.  You can turn it up.  It's called a Warré.
Kitta

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## susbees

> Maybe I should get a top bar hive  Does it count if I turn it vertically as I still think that for the UK the biggest problem with it is that it's a long hive (ignore the bulky nature of the thing) and bees like to go UP not sideways.


How do you know bees like to go up, perhaps it's just that trees tend to grow that way? And they like to be high up, but I don't see that many hives off the ground very far (and office blocks don't count)  :Wink: ...

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## susbees

> Helping a starter here who made the mistake of topbar get something better.


Other version: a starter who had no real support to get it right and might have bought inferior kit (as with certain box hives recently on sale in the UK with incorrect bee space and so on)



> The newbie experience: Waste of honey (poor yield from pressing) and wax (destructive honey extraction)


Ideal for amazing comb honey on virgin white wax untainted by foundation chemicals. I'm not a crush and strain type - horses for courses....cut comb and bees for mating nucs and making up nucs etc. 




> difficult to see if they are planning to swarm (unless you are experienced enough to tell from looking at whats going on in the entrance)


Erm, what? Inspecting a properly built htbh is a piece of cake. They don't cross comb if the hive is level, rarely stick anything to the sides and swarm control is easy - well unless you only do split and shuts...)




> bitter honey (when brooded honeycomb pressed) and higher possibility of pressing honey comb with brood still in it (doesnt happen when you uncap)


Um, so who showed them that capped brood and capped honey look different? Why did they believe they'd get a harvest in year 1 from a nuc presumably or beginner "greed"? Harvestable frames are neatly at the ends on brood-free comb. Simples.




> For varroa treatment (removal of drone comb), and most other common manipulations (shook swarm, brood starter, rightsizing hive to colony size) a great step backwards.


Thymol treatments are perfectly possible with htbh and measuring drops compared to other hives here; and a four footer is perfectly adequate, three footers do blacks down here (but I do bleed off strength - swarm control  :Big Grin: ...for other purposes).

htbh aren't just for bees abroad, they are ideal for wheelchair beekeepers, I have a friend with one arm who keeps hers solo, people with bad backs, and the bees are often significantly calmer than in the big boxes. No smoke down that end of the apiary almost ever.

We have six....and a heap of commercials. I sit on the fence, swinging both ways  :Big Grin:

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## Neils

> How do you know bees like to go up, perhaps it's just that trees tend to grow that way? And they like to be high up, but I don't see that many hives off the ground very far (and office blocks don't count) ...


Watching them for the past 4 years or so, in standard hives, various long hive adaptations including a fair few Top Bar Hives and speaking to others who've tried long hive variations.  I'm not entirely unconvinced that the WBC might not have the right idea with only 10 frames in the brood boxes.

If you stick a super on a brood box, especially a 14x12 that only has 8-9 frames drawn out they'll tend to ignore the outside frames in favour of playing in the super instead.

As for height, I'm not convinced that it has much of a bearing. They tend to nest high up in the wild because, most likely, that's where the majority of suitable sites are to be found. Tell the bees that quite happily settled in an empty nuc I'd forgotten to close up that they should be looking for sites 10+ feet, rather than 10 centimetres up in the air.  :Big Grin:

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## Jon

> and the bees are often significantly calmer than in the big boxes.


I have never seen any evidence for that other than wishful thinking. Small colonies or nucs are sometimes well behaved until they grow to fill the box and temper can become worse. In my opinion, bad bees are bad in any container and good bees will be calm in any container. the shape of the box is unlikely to change the behaviour too much. I keep 15-20 colonies in nationals and use little or no smoke. If I have a colony that is lively I find that it stays that way on almost every inspection until it gets requeened. Good genetics trumps box shape every time!

The bad back argument is often mentioned, but you can remove frames one at a time from any super if you don´t want to remove the whole thing at once.
I am with Calum re the moveable frames - very useful discovery.
i still think the only unique selling point of the TBH is the low cost of getting into beekeeping.

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## madasafish

Thymol treatment in TBHs?

Easy: I make up a mix with wax and essential oils..  Use string instead of oasis:  http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1840

and stick strings between combs with brood.

Mites drop as normal and the bees get right peed off and drag strings out of hive about 3-4 weeks later.. And it's cheaper than buying Apiguard etc..



Pallets treated?  I use only ones with white wood: only untreated/unpainted: builders merchants use them for deliveries of tiles, sand, cement etc... Euro pallets are recyclable and all treated.. so worth something  and US for bees.

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## Neils

Where I think perhaps the calmer bit comes from is the top bars are flush so you're only exposing at most two frames of bees at any one time.

Inspection cloths on a standard hive should achieve similar I'd have thought. I've not used the so far but will be giving them a go this year.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Where I think perhaps the calmer bit comes from is the top bars are flush so you're only exposing at most two frames of bees at any one time.
> 
> Inspection cloths on a standard hive should achieve similar I'd have thought. I've not used the so far but will be giving them a go this year.


... and potentially carry disease from one colony to another?

Perhaps I'm just being neurotic. Most people don't change or disinfect their gloves between hives.

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## Neils

Unless I've got cause to suspect there's something wrong I tend not to within Apiaries to be perfectly honest unless I've got myself covered in propolis in which case the hive tool goes in the soda and a new pair of gloves go on. I do try to remember to change or at least scrub the hive tool between inspections but I'd be a liar if I said I always remembered. No kit that comes in contact with a hive goes between apiaries without going through a soda solution bucket though.

I think there's taking reasonable precautions to prevent the spread of disease and then there's taking it to extremes.  Techncally I should remove swarms and quarantine them somewhere, but in the end I settle for dosing them with OA and keeping a close eye on them for a few months. From a practical point of view there is nowhere I could take them around this part of the world that would place them in effective quarantine.

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## Calum

Hi,
if I wanted to save my back, I'd get one of these.  
Getting the entire crop as comb honey would be a bit tricky here, 40kg is my average harvest per hive - and the spring harvest has to be stored untill its all been tested... Not really practical.
Yes you are right, it is no problem to keep bees in a tbh whats the htbh? I have 21 colonies + a full time job and a daughter, love the time with my bees, but have to keep it efficient. Or I'd prefer to keep mine in a carved tree stump like this one - way cooler.

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## gavin

What an interesting place to direct the bee traffic.  That even beats Jon's attempt.  Is it really designed for bees and not letters or car park donations?

Once again the differences between beekeeping here and in Germany are surprising.  You have to have your crop tested - for what?

As for cover cloths I don't like them.  As long as it is a reasonably warm day, the ventilation calms the bees.  Don't know if it is light, or the dispersal of alarm pheromone, but I think it is better without.  Not that I've done rigorous scientific tests of course.

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## Neils

I'm intrigued as to why you don't like inspection cloths. With regards to alarm pheromone, surely the fewer bees exposed to it the better? If you have bees that aren't "alarmed" to begin with, especially a few frames down from where your attention is, the more relaxed the inspection will be?

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## Jon

I nearly always use 2 cover cloths aka tea towels.
Bees like to be in the dark and exposing a bigger area tends to put more bees in the air.
Each to their own. I hardly use smoke either and some like to smoke the colony heavily a few minutes before opening.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I think there's taking reasonable precautions to prevent the spread of disease and then there's taking it to extremes.





> I nearly always use 2 cover cloths aka tea towels.


Yes, I agree Nellie, and we know the condition of our own hives - but like Gavin, I don't like those cloths.  My cloth has metal inserts in it that makes it difficult to keep clean or pop in the washing machine, so I don't use it.  I think Jon's idea of using tea towels is better.  One can perhaps clip temporary weights on them to keep them in place.

Kitta

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## gavin

I can see that I'm going to have to give them a decent trial this year.  However fairly calm bees, handled calmly, remain quiet or even get quieter after the initial couple of frames of an inspection. If I knew that I was in for a fight with the bees I may be tempted to try to keep most covered.

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## Calum

Hi Gavin, 
carved beehives are more common in the Czech Republic, the coolest I have seen were a bear and a soldier, both with the bees flying in and out of their mouths.
They were tradionally made to resemble such things to try and scare away thieves. They do look freaky when the bees are flying well. Sorry cant find the photos.

Apples are grown in this area of germany due to the excellent climate. But in early summer there are problems with fire blight. To try and protect the trees they are sprayed with an antibiotic. As a result all honey has to be tested for this. If it is found (above 17ppm) in the honey, the state buys it and destorys it. Quite a high allowable level considering 100ppm is allowed in meat, and 200ppm is allowable in kidney or liver (due to preemptive treatments to animals- there is a better expression but I cant even remember it in German..). So if you are going to eat organs or pate, be sure they are organic! 
No wonder diseases are becoming more resistant to antibiotics, we are taking them all the time when we eat meat in low doses...

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## EmsE

I made a couple of manipulating clothes by putting some wooden bars from a cot side through slots at either end of the cloth. With 1 drawing pin in each bar, the bars won't slide out, but are easily removed for washing.

It took me a while to get used to them, and only tried them as they were mentioned in the basic beekeeping exam, but I wouldn't be without them now. It minimises the heat loss during the inspection, which admittedly during summer isn't a problem, but during spring or particularly when treating with oxalic acid in winter it could only be a good thing for the bees to use them. They're really quick & cheap to make so if there is a concern about disease in the apiary, you can produce a cloth for each hive and then put them all in the wash when you get home.

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## madasafish

I don't use any manipulating cloth with my TBHs. What I do have is a strip of cardboard about the width of two and a half topbars  and slightly longer than their length. In the centre running along the length is a small piece of wood glued on to use as a hold  and to prevent them flopping around (Old rocket sticks are ideal.. and free) . When I have removed a topbar, I place the card over the vacated space to prevent bees exiting.  When it gets soiled replace it with another. Easy to carry and costs nothing. I keep one under each  hive top  so no cross contamination and no carrying them around..

The lazy man's guide to doing the minimum possible.

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## susbees

> I nearly always use 2 cover cloths aka tea towels.
> Bees like to be in the dark and exposing a bigger area tends to put more bees in the air.
> Each to their own. I hardly use smoke either and some like to smoke the colony heavily a few minutes before opening.


Which is precisely why you think tbh bees aren't calmer Jon! I use non-fluffy teatowels on the commercials in challenging weather...it does make a difference, sometimes quite a big one.

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## Stromnessbees

> htbh aren't just for bees abroad, they are ideal for wheelchair beekeepers, I have a friend with one arm who keeps hers solo, people with bad backs, and the bees are often significantly calmer than in the big boxes. No smoke down that end of the apiary almost ever.


You made some very good points there.

And there is another positive aspect: 
No need to store lots of equipment!

Just consider how much space all the spare supers take up while they are not in use. Then there's the extractor and the straining gear as well. 
I somebody only wants a couple of hives in the corner of their small garden and is happy with comb honey chopped up and pushed into a jar, then the TBH is not a bad option. 

The important thing is that TBH beginners get support from their local association though and learn how they can avoid cross comb, swarming and varroa. It doesn't help if they are disregarded as fanciful idealists, they have every right o be taken seriously.

I would even say that with a TBH you might be able to get a better understanding of the natural working of a colony than in the usual square boxes.

One item I find very useful in my TBH is a divider board with openings that fit a porter bee escape. It allows me to block off the empty space at the back during the winter, and it also makes it very simple to divide a colony or even have two nucs in one box, with a separate entrance at each end. 
 :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... One item I find very useful in my TBH is a divider board with openings that fit a porter bee escape. It allows me to block off the empty space at the back during the winter, and it also makes it very simple to divide a colony or even have two nucs in one box, with a separate entrance at each end.


S, why do the divider boards need bee escapes?  Just to allow lost bees back to the nest?
Kitta

PS: Sorry - that was a dumb question.  I've just never seen them with bee escapes.  Good idea.
K

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## Neils

> You made some very good points there.
> 
> And there is another positive aspect: 
> No need to store lots of equipment!
> 
> Just consider how much space all the spare supers take up while they are not in use. Then there's the extractor and the straining gear as well. 
> I somebody only wants a couple of hives in the corner of their small garden and is happy with comb honey chopped up and pushed into a jar, then the TBH is not a bad option. 
> 
> The important thing is that TBH beginners get support from their local association though and learn how they can avoid cross comb, swarming and varroa. It doesn't help if they are disregarded as fanciful idealists, they have every right o be taken seriously.
> ...


I think it cuts both ways in some respects, there is a reason that the TBH has become synonymous with fanciful idealists and I think some of the more evangelical enthusiasts want to have their cake and eat it. I.e. it's a bit rich to send off people with not only ideals for ignoring varroa and swarming, especially from an urban perspective, in particular *and* to make out that the rest of us are moustache twirling bee "exploiters" and then complain that having told associations what a bunch of out of touch so-and-so's they are that they don't then drop everything to accomodate TBH beekeepers.

I agree with most of your points though, I don't have any problem with a TBH or beekeeper that can acknowledge that at the end of the day it's a beehive, no more, no less. It has positive and negative elements just like every other hive out there. If the positives outweigh the negatives in the decision making process then for good for that user.

The only point I'd disagree with is the suitability of sticking a hive that is difficult to move once it's in place and full of bees in a small garden, I'd question the wisdom of putting any hive into a small garden.

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## xanthemara

I have a TBH, although no inhabitants yet, still looking for some. We will be using polystyrene as insulation come the winter if we have any bees by then, although I think I will wait until next year now.  After reading a lot about them and the various pros and cons about them I decided I would give it a go.  So we will see what happens next year unless I manage to get some bees before then.  I am wrinkly as well and this is my first venture into beekeeping after many years of wanting them but not being able to.

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## Dark Bee

Xanthemara, I am pleased you are getting close to realising your ambition. If there is a bee keeping association anywhere in your area go along, it will not be necessary for you to have bees to do so and you undoubtedly will find it useful. Perhaps join a course this winter and get your bees in the spring?

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