# General beekeeping > Bee health >  Beekeeping on Mars

## gavin

Lifted, shamelessly but with reverence, from Ted Hancock's writings on Bee-L.  We do need to talk about imports.

     ----- Forwarded Message -----
 *From:* Ted Hancock <xxxxx@XXXX.XXX>
*To:* BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu 
*Sent:* Sunday, 30 September 2007, 19:59
*Subject:* [BEE-L] Beekeeping on Mars
 

If they had beekeeping on Mars, I expect they'd talk about importing bees 
from Earth. The conversation mite go something like this:

Dip: We're so far from the sun it's hard to raise enough bees. We need to  
start importing them from Earth.

Ip: I don't have trouble raising enough bees.

Dip: That's because you're not a real beekeeper.

Ip: What makes you say that?

Dip: Because real beekeepers want to import bees from Earth.

Ip: That's not a rational argument.

Dip: I don't have to be rational, I'm a real beekeeper.

Ip: But Earthling bees have some nasty pests and diseases that we don't 
have. If we import them they could kill our bees.

Dip: You're just fear mongering. Even if we did import exotic pests they'd 
never survive in our Martian atmosphere.

Ip: How do you know that?

Dip: Look at Earth's moon: varroa can't survive there and we're a lot 
further away from Earth than the moon.

Ip: Oh boy. Maybe we could allow the importation of genetic material under 
strict scientific protocols.

Dip: A pox on your scientific protocols. Scientitst have no idea what 
risks we need to take in order to make a Martian living. If we don't allow 
legal cross cosmic distribution of bees, someone's just going to smuggle 
them across anyways.

Ip: Now who's fear mongering?

Dip: You need to think more like a human.

Ip: That's hard to do when I'm an intelligent being.

So Mars allows the importation of bees from Earth. Varroa, trachea et. al 
prove to be much more virulent on Mars and suddenly no one can keep bees 
alive longer than six months.

Ip: Well, this is great. Now we're totally dependent on imported bees from 
Earth.

Dip: That's right. And I hope you appreciate my foresight in pushing for 
those imports. If we didn't have them our industry would be dead now.

Ip; Youch! I think my brain just exploded!

Dip: Good, I can steal your beekeeping area.


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## fatshark

> We do need to talk about imports.


We do.

Have the SBA made an official statement on SHB and/or an import ban yet? Despite the October magazine having three separate pages mentioning SHB there was nothing I could see other than a statement to be 'vigilant' by Phil Moss. I appreciate the lead time for publication, but can't see anything on the website either.

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## Little_John

For millions of years, diseases have been contained by geographic isolation, but increased human mobility has allowed these natural barriers to be circumvented. 

Quite recently the origin of Aids has been tracked to a port in the Congo: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29442642
where the virus remained contained until a rapid population explosion combined with the advent of a railway system enabled millions to easily move around Africa. And so the virus gradually began to spread ...

International travel and movement of goods are also the most likely vectors of a potential SARS or Ebola epidemic.

And let's not forget that the Great Plague (The Black Death) of the Middle Ages was caused by flea-carrying ship's rats bringing the disease here from overseas.  Seems we haven't learned too many lessons from history.


In the 20 or so years prior to the Isle of Wight disease outbreak, there was a monumental number of colonial conflicts - I've just begun listing them - as the extensive British Empire began to crumble. British soldiers were duly sent all over the empire, and their points of disembarkation would undoubtedly have been on England's south coast, around the Portsmouth/ Southampton area.

Coincidence ? Maybe - but I think it's a theory worth pursuing ...

LJ

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## gavin

The news broke the day before the October Scottish Beekeeper went to bed: I'm keen that we have something reasoned, informed and agreed for the next one.  And also a well thought-out response for the next meeting with the Scottish Government in November, before which we have a chance to debate this with the members at the November SBA meeting.  The main reason for posting this thread was to get some open debate going while the SBA decides its stance. For one thing, we have a lot of committed non-importers on here plus a couple of non-members living elsewhere with commercial interests in continuing to import.  What about general SBA members - what do they want?

Should a ban, if there is one, be restricted to Italy or, for this first uncertain year of SHB, should it be all sources of bees outside the UK?  Anywhere there are known links with Italy?  Anywhere in Europe where there is not a tip-top, highly proactive, professional, well-funded bee inspection service?  Under what conditions do people regard the current strategy safe enough, that is 100km cordons around known, confirmed detections?

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## fatshark

Little_John is absolutely correct  international trade and travel are two of the primary drivers in the spread of new infectious diseases, parasites and pathogens. AIDS-like retroviruses are (still) regularly acquired by West African bushmeat hunters, but the combination of the railways, consequent worker (male) migration, the resulting sex trade and the development of cheap(er) syringes (in the 1920's in Kinshasa) allowed the virus to become widespread and subsequently global. SARS was spread to 5 continents within a few weeks of entering the human population due to airline travel (admittedly, unknowingly). Similarly, the recent primary and secondary cases of Ebola in Nigeria (imported from Liberia) are again due to travel. 

These are infections in humans, but there is equally compelling studies supporting the spread to South America of rinderpest in cattle for example. This is why *movement bans* are imposed during foot and mouth disease outbreaks. These bans are imposed to protect unexposed valuable domesticated animals. The bans generally cover both live animals and other potential sources of infectious material _e.g._ semen or embryos.

It seems to me that there are three broad approaches that could be takenWe continue with the current 100km protection zoneIndividual countries impose restrictions on a country by country basis, having judged the risk and impact of import bansSince this is the first established outbreak in Europe we have a Europe-wide movement ban, which could operate at the country or regional level
I should add that I don't know the intricacies of European law in terms of what can and cannot be done. 

Import bans will impact queen and package producers. They will also impact purchasers - amateur and commercial - who rely on imports to make up for winter losses, replace failing queens _etc._. Movement bans will additionally impact migratory beekeeping. If SHB becomes established widely throughout the continent it will impact most of us. 

Since we don't know the current extent of the infestation in Italy it would seem wise to restrict exports of bees (queens, packages _etc._) from Italy *at the very least*. Whether this would have to be imposed by other countries forbidding imports, or Italy preventing exports, is unclear. I would favour a more extensive ban on movements of bees within and between countries until the situation is clearer. 

One thing that is clear from transmission of other pathogens is that once out and established it takes a huge effort, and a lot of money, to eradicate them  if it's possible at all. Rinderpest was eradicated by culling and vaccination. FMDV by culling. SARS by good epidemiology, patient isolation and thanks to it being a pretty difficult virus to transmit. _Varroa_ is here to stay. 

How many don't support a ban on movements/imports but would support culling of their entire stock if the beetle arrived locally?

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## Little_John

The Bee Diseases and Pests Control (England) Order 2006 appears to have a serious flaw - this being that a disease must arrive and be detected before any action is deemed to be necessary. Preventative measures do not appear to feature within the (non-)thinking of legal minds ...
LJ

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## Bumble

> Should a ban, if there is one, be restricted to Italy or, for this first uncertain year of SHB, should it be all sources of bees outside the UK?  Anywhere there are known links with Italy?  Anywhere in Europe where there is not a tip-top, highly proactive, professional, well-funded bee inspection service?  Under what conditions do people regard the current strategy safe enough, that is 100km cordons around known, confirmed detections?


If, as it seems likely, these beetles have a foothold in Italy then any ban or restriction on bee movement will only delay the inevitable but it will give a chance to plan. Inevitable, because they can fly or be blown by the wind to a new site, or could be moved in a consignment of fruit.

If you track the movement of the Harlequin Ladybird since it arrived in East Anglia (aggregated map on this page; separate maps on this page) I think you can see what might happen after either, or both, SHB and Asian Hornets first set foot on British soil. The only difference will be that the beekeeper is likely to be a vector for SHB once it's here, especially migratory beekeepers and bee farmers or people who put a caged queen in their pocket and get on a plane, whereas the AH will make its' own way.

Could any ban be enforceable? I tend to think not, sadly.

Would every boat owner get told they can't bring produce (comb honey etc) back from mainland Europe, just in case? - They'd ignore that as quickly as they ignore the rules about bringing back too much booze!

How could you, once SHB is in the country, tell a bee farmer that they mustn't move their bees to fulfil a pollination contract? The knock-on from that would be a reduced harvest for a grower, more imported fruit with associated risks if the fruit is from Italy or any other area with SHB. 

Then there are the beekeepers who refuse to register their colonies, or those who see no need to be a member of an organisation. Both types live under the radar, so to speak, and some probably can't even recognise foulbrood. If nobody knows who the people are, or where there bees are, how would they even learn of any control orders? We couldn't rely on the media, they haven't mentioned a thing about the current outbreak, and even manage to misidentify and describe the Asian Hornet. They seem much more concerned with killer spiders!

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## Rosie

Perhaps we should ban imports from Italy plus any other country that continues to allow imports from Italy.

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## Jon

Agreed Rosie.
And a ban would encourage the development of a UK based queen rearing industry as well.
Years ago on the old bbka forum Mike Roberts of Easybee used to say that UK based queenrearing was not a viable business so he started to sell his nucs and packages with imported queens.
Sure, it is easier to rear queens if you live in a place with a better climate, but any individual or group with a will to do it could produce several hundred queens between late May and September. I had half a dozen queens start to lay in Apideas last week.

Several people have posted on bee forums that the arrival of SHB in the UK is inevitable. I don't think we should accept that as we have the advantage of a stretch of water between ourselves and the European mainland. Importing nucs and packages had got to be a far higher risk than importing queens or fruit.

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## gavin

How come we can successfully keep this beetle pest from establishing in the UK since WWII, yet some folk think it inevitable that we'll get SHB quickly?



Here is Defra's current leaflet on keeping this pest out of the UK.

http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/...Beetle2006.pdf 

If bee health really is important to the UK then beekeepers - and all their organisations - should be pushing hard to change practices _and_ regulations to keep this pest out.  No-one raising income in the UK need suffer, all they have to do is change what they do.  Back to home queen rearing.  Increasing the quality of beekeeping so that heavy losses are a thing of the past.  Resilience built into businesses so that they can withstand bad years.  The only ones who will really suffer are those who have built businesses abroad specialising totally on generating bees for export.

The costs of letting it in will be massive.

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## gavin

Thinking like a regulator would think .....

A one year ban on any European source until we are clearer where the pest has already spread.

or, if the information is available:

A ban on imports from Italy, and from other European countries that cannot demonstrate an adequate level of proactive, effective, intense bee inspection effort and a willingness to rapidly report any detections (and throw effective 100km cordons around them).

I've no idea what the perspectives are of beekeepers across mainland Europe.  Presumably they're just as fatalistic as those UK beekeepers who already want to throw in the towel.  As Jon says, it should be different for folk living on an island.

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## mbc

Wholeheartedly agree, if we cannot engineer a ban now with all the cards in our deck then it's almost an open invite for the beetle to come in.  It is by no means inevitable that we get it, certainly not in our lifetimes, and such defeatist arguments should be shot down and their motives exposed post haste.

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## Jon

There is a 2 year EU suspension on 3 of the neonicotinoids because of the perceived harm to honeybees and the science is not even certain yet on that one.
We know SHB will be harmful to beekeeping so why not take steps to keep that off these islands.

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## mbc

Time for people who care to be proactive and vocal?

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## Jon

NIHBS sent a statement to the minister 2 weeks ago calling for a total import ban.

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## Pete L

> NIHBS sent a statement to the minister 2 weeks ago calling for a total import ban.


  And what did he say?

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## Jon

Hi Pete. Don't know. I haven't heard back from the PRO yet.
Trouble with Ireland is the two jurisdictions as an import ban would be worthless without it applying to both.
GB got varroa in 1992 and Ireland got its first case in 1998 in the Sligo/Leitrim area when someone brought a couple of colonies in from England.
It is possible to keep new pathogens off the island if people behave responsibly.
Connemara was varroa free until relatively recently until a beginner brought a colony in from Dublin without talking to any of the locals first.
Ask Ger about it.

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## Pete L

Hi Jon. Seems ridiculous not to have an immediate ban on imports for UK and Ireland, under the circumstances, there was very soon a ban when SHB was found in Hawaii.

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## Jon

What is the general beefarmer view Pete? Are most of them pro or anti an immediate import ban.
Both of us sell a few UK reared queens within the UK so any restriction on imports would hardly be the end of the world.
The main victims of any restriction on bee movement would be those who specialise in queens and packages who ship to multiple European destinations.
I guess these people could be compensated for loss of trade.

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## Pete L

> What is the general beefarmer view Pete?


 Split views really, there are many who don't import any bees or queens at all, one of the biggest is here in the south west... then there are obviously some that import new queens every spring, like a kind of standing order. Would not be the end of the world for me as i produce enough of my own queens, anything between 700 to 1200 a season, and over winter plenty for use in early spring, this over wintering of queens is what i believe a lot more beekeepers should be doing, it is so easy to do, and even over wintering just a few would be beneficial if a lot more beekeepers were doing it.

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## Jon

Companies like Paynes and Bickerstaffe must make a good margin on a high volume of imported queens.
Not sure what they would be paying per queen for bulk orders but it is likely less than £10 and they are sold on at about £40.

Can you produce 1000 queens on your own or is that a team/family effort.
I have been trying to work out how many queens a sole trader could produce in the UK over an average summer but 1000 is way above my estimate.

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## gavin

The NZ queen raisers must be rubbing their hands.  I can't see any bee health reason for denying NZ imports given that the EU has already agreed their standards are good enough for imports, and that Canterbury is 18,500 km from Gioia Tauro.

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## Pete L

> Can you produce 1000 queens on your own or is that a team/family effort.
> I have been trying to work out how many queens a sole trader could produce in the UK over an average summer but 1000 is way above my estimate.


 Could produce a lot more, and no i don't do it on my own, have three of my sons working with me full time, but that is not just on the queen rearing obviously... Michael Collier produces a lot of queens, runs well over a thousand mating nucs, maybe two now, and he works mostly on his own, and has a full time job elsewhere... or did last time i was at his place a couple of years ago.

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## Jon

But as Pete says, overwintering combined with an organised system of production over the summer could take up a lot of the slack.

Bibba should step up to the plate. Any comments Rosie?

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## mbc

> Companies like Paynes and Bickerstaffe must make a good margin on a high volume of imported queens.
> Not sure what they would be paying per queen for bulk orders but it is likely less than £10 and they are sold on at about £40.
> 
> Can you produce 1000 queens on your own or is that a team/family effort.
> I have been trying to work out how many queens a sole trader could produce in the UK over an average summer but 1000 is way above my estimate.


Pop an imported queen with a couple of frames of brood and the profit jumps up dramatically. I'd guess most "UK" produced nucs are made up like this,  nice little earner if you don't worry about the environmental pollution aspect of importing queens.

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## Jon

I find the bottlenecks to production are mundane things such as marking queens and putting them in a cage with half a dozen attendants.
If you have to take each queen from an apidea or mini nuc that takes time even if you can do each one in a few minutes.

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## mbc

> I find the bottlenecks to production are mundane things such as marking queens and putting them in a cage with half a dozen attendants.
> If you have to take each queen from an apidea or mini nuc that takes time even if you can do each one in a few minutes.


Stocking the mini nucs takes the most time, and failures are the biggest waste of time, I think that is what makes british isles queen breeding uneconomic, the often comparatively high failure rate.  That's what hurts me the most anyway, I reckon.

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## Pete L

> Stocking the mini nucs takes the most time, and failures are the biggest waste of time, I think that is what makes british isles queen breeding uneconomic, the often comparatively high failure rate.  That's what hurts me the most anyway, I reckon.


 Most of our mini nucs don't need stocking, they are run all year round, and split in spring complete with bees and brood to increase the numbers...and those numbers rise really fast in spring.

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## Jon

But once they are stocked you should get 2 or 3 cycles out of them.

This summer was great apart from August. I lost weak apideas to wasps in August and because of the rain I had a few drone layers.

But yea, filling mini nucs is near enough the worst job in beekeeping. I hate it.

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## Jon

> Most of our mini nucs don't need stocking, they are run all year round, and split in spring complete with bees and brood to increase the numbers...and those numbers rise really fast in spring.



Balmy Devon. Not so easy in Belfast

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## Pete L

> Balmy Devon. Not so easy in Belfast


 Well, not quite balmy, Jon, but I'm sure it is not as harsh as Belfast or parts of Scotland, and i do bring all colonies down near to home into a very sheltered valley for winter (microclimate), not so good out over the hills in winter...different world weather wise, back in the spring when the east of the country was getting plenty of days with temperatures up to 20c we were getting plenty of days at 7c with rain and fog.

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## Jon

Thing is, if enough people got involved we could produce all the queens we need with minimal need for import.

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## mbc

Tricky to convince people to change management practices though, and its also wise to remember wintering success with small units varies a great deal depending on the season, don't be lulled into a false sense of security by how easy it is some years as others will be a complete failure. Obviously the larger, more populous an overwintering colony is, the greater chance of success, but also the biggest investment and the most to lose.

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## Rosie

> But as Pete says, overwintering combined with an organised system of production over the summer could take up a lot of the slack.
> 
> Bibba should step up to the plate. Any comments Rosie?


BIBBA is just a collection of members.  If any member wants help to produce 1000 queens I am sure the committee will support them.  Unfortunately we don't have unlimited funds and we would also need to be sure of the stock that was being used.  No doubt marketing through Bee Improvement Magazine would be offered and we have helped with setting up costs in the past but as far as I know they have usually been small operations.  If anyone has any initiatives they want the committee to consider they just need to let us know.  There is a meeting coming up in about 2 weeks so it can be discussed then.  We currently encourage group working and have groups in lots of places now and they are growing in numbers but there would have to be a step change to fill the void that an import ban would cause.  We are also helping to set up a mainland sanctuary for Colonsay bees in case of a disaster on the island.  BIBBA's policy recently has been to encourage people to improve the bees in their area whilst helping to make bees available for those who wish to parachute better stock in.  There is a tension between these two philosophies but my own view is to let the members on the ground decide how they wish to go about supporting Amm or near Amm and help them any way we can.

Now the conference is over I am hoping to get some new initiatives off the ground.

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## Jon

If you want to breed Amm you really need to start with Amm.
Even then it is very hard to stop introgression from the other subspecies and Buckfast.

The bee improvement from local mongrels will produce a better bee but it wont be Amm.

But keeping the thread on topic, it should be possible to produce a lot more queens locally, which would reduce the need for imports and that can only be a good thing.
The only viable way to produce decent quantities of queens is to use some sort of mini nuc, home made or otherwise, unless you have access to hundreds of colonies of bees with which to make up 2-3 frame nucs for mating queens.
I still meet people who argue that Apideas don't work or are 'too complicated for the ordinary beekeeper.'
Whatever number of units you own you should be able to produce more than 2 queens per unit in an average summer.
I got 4 mated queens out of a couple of my apideas last season and I am sure Pete manages that on a regular basis with his system as he can start earlier and end later given the more favourable climate in Devon.

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## mbc

> If you want to breed Amm you really need to start with Amm.


Easy for Celtic fringe beekeepers to say when the background populations are largely amm, but improvement of local bees is the best the rest can hope to manage without II (which is far too daunting for the average beekeeper). 
I was very impressed by Jo Widdicombe's presentation at the bibba conference, to my shame I didnt take notes, but he quoted research which showed that the genetic make up of the sampled bees across Britain turned out to be around 45% pretty evenly, North, South, East and West, wherever samples were taken.  This figure would probably hurtle upwards very quickly through the simple measure of stopping imports, given the apparent mating advantage of amm drones.  Basically, all we need to do is ensure our queens are home mated and everywhere will soon have close to amm bees.  Personally I'm not too bothered about a little introgression (we're too far down the road to help that anyway in most areas) as I believe advantageous genes (even from "unwanted" stock)will endure, and to parachute in foreign amm throws the baby out with the bathwater in that our objective is surely to preserve the diversity of local bee genetic resource for future generations.

By my calculations I averaged a nudge under 2 successfully mated queens per mating box this season, must do better!

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## Rosie

> By my calculations I averaged a nudge under 2 successfully mated queens per mating box this season, must do better!


I am not alone then!

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## Jon

We had a really good summer apart from August.
I had a few mated before the end of May and they were still mating last week. I found 7 or 8 Apideas with eggs when I got home from Llangollen.

We were told off for talking at the start of Jo's talk so that likely put you off taking notes!

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## busybeephilip

> Can you produce 1000 queens on your own or is that a team/family effort.
> .


Hi jon,

Many many years ago, as I'm sure I told you when I was more active, I got breeder queens for the buckfast bee and had the intention of supplying the country with buckfast bees.  UBKA at the time wanted in on the act (incorporating it into phase 3 of leader) and attempted to recruit me for that purpose but it just was not feasible given travel and time plus I was not going to do it free of charge and UBKA pocket the profits.

The operation came to an end after a year and a half simply due to the amount of work involved in filling apideas, grafting feeding etc plus holding down a full time job and playing my part in raising 2 young children.  I had about 20 hives then so plenty of bees to play with and it was just too much work for one person

I quickly learnt that this queen breeding lark for profit was for those with plenty of time on their hands and an understanding wife so that ended it.

In a way you are lucky as you do have lots of spare time and can work bees 24/7 and I am sure rely on many of the club members to give you support and a helping hand when needed.    I could be wrong, but the limit for one person reasonable well organized  I'd estimate to be around 150 apidas , more than this then things start to get on top of you and you dont have time to turn around.  Apideas are very time consuming when you have a need to examine the or find a queen which is one reason why I am keen on my system that I showed you.  The bottom line is that to raise 1000 queens you would need another full time person to help
good luck
Phil

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## Little_John

> ... over wintering of queens is what i believe a lot more beekeepers should be doing, it is so easy to do, and even over wintering just a few would be beneficial if a lot more beekeepers were doing it.


Are we talking here about over-wintering in Apideas, or multiple cages within Nationals - or maybe even multiple 2-frame nucs ?  
This is something I'd very much like to do, and any opinions on the best tried and tested methods to use would be appreciated.

LJ

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## Neils

Just to go off on a little tangent it's an eye opener having my bees on a sheep farm. Listening to conversations around the rules and regulations around moving sheep compared to my simply sticking my bees in the back of a van and dumping them on a new site is quite interesting to say the least.

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## The Drone Ranger

Queen banking ? 
Can anyone explain ?
There used to be a few ads in Scottish beekeeper for queens.
Anyone remember John Forsey I think it was ?
He may have been swept up in the SBA SICCAM pogroms or possibly retired.

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## fatshark

Hi DR  you can keep mated queens in colonies, usually caged alone (_i.e._ no workers) in transport cages of some sort, with access to workers in the colony. This is in a queenless portion of a queenright colony, for example above the QE in a brood box, with the queens flanked by emerging brood. I've not done this (yet  I meant to this year, built the banking frame but then got overwhelmed with work) but it's described in Laidlaw and Eckert _Queen Rearing_ under 'care of queens'.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks fatshark.
One big queen importer who used to produce lots of their own queen mentioned Queen banking as their method.
On a tangent it would be easy enough to have a two queen hive where the brood boxes were separated by the black coated mesh sold for varroa floors 
Providing the food didnt run out the heat would be shared

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## Little_John

Academic results from attempts at Queen Banking have been pretty dire:




> Journal of Apicultural Research, Vol. 42 (4) pp. 61 - 64, December 2003 
> 
> *Overwintering of honey bee queens en mass in reservoir colonies in a temperate climate and its effect on queen performance - H V Gencer
> 
> Abstract*
> The mass storage of mated honey bee (Apis mellifera) queens in reservoir colonies over winter was investigated under continental climatic conditions. The mated queens were stored in (a) queenright reservoir (QRR) colonies on a frame with partitioned honeycomb, (b) QRR colonies on frame holding wire screen cages, (c) queenless reservoir (QLR) colonies on frame with partitioned honeycomb, and (d) QLR colonies on frame holding wire screen cages. 
> 
> In addition to mass storage, the queens were individually wintered in colonies held in Kirchainer mating hives and in 5-frame nucleus hives with standard combs as the control group. 
> 
> ...


Which is why, when Pete L. commented that overwintering queens was easy, I asked if he'd expand on the system being used ...

I'm planning on over-wintering queens in multiple 2-frame nucs with supplementary heating next winter - still ironing-out one or two details before I start building the kit.

LJ

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## Jon

Pete overwinters his queens in home made mini nucs above the crownboard of a strong colony which provides a little heat.

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## fatshark

Thanks Little_John … I'd seen quite a few negative comments about banked queens but no specifics for overwintered stocks. The figures in that abstract are pretty awful. Laidlaw and Eckert state that _"… queen breeders do not, as a general rule, attempt to carry surplus queens in reservoirs overwinter …"_. No wonder. 

Overwintering in polystyrene mini-nucs is pretty straightforward. I've done it in double-deckers with no additional protection, or single story units in an unheated greenhouse with access to the outside. I've had a poor year for queen rearing so aren't overwintering any other than 5 frame nucs this season. I'm not sure you'll need additional heating. The only comment I'd have about two frame nucs is that the surface area is reasonably large so a clustered colony is likely to be flattened or exposed on the outside of the outer frames. One solution might be to have a well insulated brood box with Correx dividers allowing reasonable heat 'sharing' between adjacent two frame colonies. I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

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## prakel

> I'm planning on over-wintering queens in multiple 2-frame nucs with supplementary heating next winter - still ironing-out one or two details before I start building the kit.


Just a thought as you haven't already started building the gear, do you have specific reasons for not looking towards the alternative of using three frames in the nucs? It's not so much that there's an extra comb but rather that there's an extra seam. Personally, although I know that twos work I always feel that three is a far better configuration, closer to what might be 'natural'.

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## gavin

This *is* the official queen-raising forum  :Wink: .

Not a complaint in case anyone is worried, just an observation.   :Big Grin:   Mars to queen rearing in a few short pages.

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## Jon

I did try and get back on topic via post 35!
I think queen banking is ok for a few weeks in the summer although you have to bank them all at the same time.
If you add new queens to the same bank they feed the new ones and ignore the older ones apparently.
Never tried it and mine stay in the Apideas until needed.

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## busybeephilip

I used to do a lot of queen banking of mated queens, its a usefull teqchnique but you need to be aware of feeding problems and use the correct size of wire mesh

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## busybeephilip

Been thinking more  - I suppose you could do 1000 queens using 2 + rounds of 500 apideas.  But you would need at least around 50 supporting colonies.  And a lot of time but honey would be a nuisance.

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## The Drone Ranger

hi Little_John

Thanks for the info I don't think queen banking is looking too promising 
Oher than overwintering though theres no supply of early season queens
That drives imports I think
Wonder how that can be fixed ?
Brother Adam (yes him again) was interested in the longevity of the bees he produced
That was in relation to workers and the advantage is better honey crops
I wonder if he did any measurements of queen age/productivity
Chickens (yes them again) like the commercial varieties for battery production have a relatively short laying life though they are very productive on the other hand Black Rocks designed for outdoor free range /backyard production lay nearly as many eggs but are still laying at 5 years or so old
As far as I am aware Black Rocks are unavailable on Mars ( getting back on topic )  :Confused:

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## Jon

> Been thinking more  - I suppose you could do 1000 queens using 2 + rounds of 500 apideas.  But you would need at least around 50 supporting colonies.  And a lot of time but honey would be a nuisance.


1000 solo would definitely be pushing it but 500 is probably attainable if you got yourself well organised.
200 Apideas could produce 500 queens in a decent season, ie starting early, ending late.
Hell of a lot of work though.
Would be dawn to dusk work in June and July.

Curiously, now into October, I am still getting messages from people looking queens.
There is definitely a considerable market, but the UK based supply is not there to meet the demand.

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## Pete L

> Curiously, now into October, I am still getting messages from people looking queens.
> There is definitely a considerable market, but the UK based supply is not there to meet the demand.


 We sent the last nine queens of the season out just over a week ago, had five more requests for queens since sending those out, but reply was sold out, all the rest are in their over wintering boxes now. MAQS seem to of been responsible for quite a lot of extra late queen sales.

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## fatshark

> Oher than overwintering though theres no supply of early season queens
> That drives imports I think
> Wonder how that can be fixed ?


I would think that a good place to start would be to encourage early autumn requeening. Young queens probably overwinter better and get started earlier. Early queens are usually needed by those who have had queen failures overwinter - drone layers, deaths etc. I suspect a good proportion of these could be avoided by going into the winter with a strong, healthy colony headed by a young queen.

How many supercedure queens fail overwinter? (excluding the ones when the bees clearly don't know what's best because they tried to get a virgin mated in mid-October). 

If autumn requeening became 'the norm' it would fit in very well with our climate/ability to get queens mated.

PS ... and a follow-up to the post from Pete L. ... _Varroa_ treatments that don't slaughter the queen would be helpful in reducing demand as well  :Wink:  Is there anything consistent here in MAQS-induced queen losses? Is it always being correctly applied?

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## Jon

> MAQS seem to of been responsible for quite a lot of extra late queen sales.


Same here Pete. A lot of the enquiries start with a rant about queen losses after MAQS.
I still have about 15 in Apideas but I want to hang on to most of those to replace any drone layers I find in the Spring.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Fatshark.
I think you are right about end of Summer requeening.
I dont know about commercial beekeeping and they are the main importers of queens.
I'm seeing drones flying about today because of the nice weather.
Unusual this time of year ?
 (remember mars)

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## Adam

I see no reason why beekeepers shouldn't produce their own queens - and if (as I hope) imports were banned, there would be a value to the craft. With regard to imports from NZ, I spoke to one local beekeeper 2 or 3 years ago who obtained 4 and only had one left after a couple of months - it's a long way for them to travel.

I didn't expect to have any spare queens this year, however I sold a couple of my surplus queens only a short while ago to a desperate beekeeper (MAQS did for 2 of his 5 queens), and as the weather has been so good, I've made nucs up so 4 of my spares are overwintering in those - definitely a good way of banking queens! Another queen is in a triple swi-bine mini-nuc held together with gaffa tape... 

Without imports, beekeepers would have to accept the seasonal nature of queen supply. Our craft is govourned by the weather so much in any case it would not be too difficult to come to terms with.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Adam.
I agree with what you say 
 the imported queens are by all accounts very cheap and produced on a very large scale.
They have a reputation of being very docile as well.
I'm not sure they would be as cheap as producing their own but it seems the big beekeeping operations don't think it is.
All my hives have green marked queens bar a couple of red and one old girl (white) who has been kept deliberately

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## busybeephilip

Hi jon,

I did read somewhere recently where queens were successfully banked in colonies over winter  - YES over winter !!   If you have not seen this I must try look it out for you, let me know

Phil

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## busybeephilip

> Hi jon,
> 
> I did read somewhere recently where queens were successfully banked in colonies over winter  - YES over winter !!   If you have not seen this I must try look it out for you, let me know
> 
> Phil


Yes - here it is I think !

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/queen_banks.htm

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## Jon

So all I need is 12 full time staff and a purpose built thermoregulated building!

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## Little_John

> *If they had beekeeping on Mars,* I expect they'd talk about importing bees 
> from Earth.


If - only IF ... ?

The Germans are currently working on just this very thing ...

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/u...ation_mars.htm

LJ

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## busybeephilip

Hi jon,

The interesting thing about the chap that raises a lot of queens is that he uses a ratio of queens reared to the number of support hives that I mentioned in my previous post  ie 5000 hives to 30000 - 40000 queens, or 50 hives to support 400 queens

Time to get up to the 50 hive mark - even more work I can assure you

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## Jon

Would hope to be near 50 by the end of next summer.

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## gavin

> Would hope to be near 50 by the end of next summer.


Now there was me thinking you're *way* passed that.  ;-) 


Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## prakel

re fatsharks comment on Autumn re-queening:

I seem to remember that this was _the_ way to manage colonies in the not too distant days of my childhood. Wonder what happened to change the overall slant to Spring re-queening other than some fast marketing by the importers? Again, on memory, Colin Butler in the MAFF bulletin which he re-wrote in the 50s advocated just this procedure.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi prakel.
Think oil seed rape is responsible for the change

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## James O

Also varroa, with more winter losses needing to be recovered from?

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## fatshark

I don't have enough colonies or get properly organised in my queen rearing to know if there is better performance from late-requeened colonies early the next season *with* OSR and _Varroa_. Maybe someone with more colonies can comment? The only possible problem I could imagine is that a young queen might have more brood going through the winter, making winter OA treatment less effective. 

If there was clear evidence of a benefit from autumn requeening it might make overwintering queens in mini-nucs less critical. It might also encourage people to raise good numbers of queens during the best part of the season.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Fatshark
I'm pretty sure that overwintered young queens would be better
Might be eating those words next year though 
I have friends who get attached to certain queens and give them names 
There's practically a funeral when one doesn't get through the winter  :Smile: 
I dont know much about Commercial beekeeping but at the moment for them I suspect they find it cheaper to buy queens in bulk say £10 a time than raise queens and feed the hives for winter ?

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## prakel

No doubt Brother Adam's writing has also helped the Spring re-queening idea -although he wasn't buying new season queens to do the job...

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## Jon

Brother Adam had an easier job overwintering in the days before varroa and its viruses. He used to overwinter 100s of 2 frame nucs and that gave him loads to select from and the winter itself would have got rid of the very weakest.
Some of his ideas are valid today but some probably would not work as they did in the varroa free era.

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## Pete L

> He used to overwinter 100s of 2 frame nucs and that gave him loads to select from and the winter itself would have got rid of the very weakest.


 The hives on Dartmoor contain four frames in each section, full depth, half width Dadant frames, four sections to each box with four frames in each, when a queen is removed or for winter the central sliding divider can be pulled to make an eight frame nuc, or two eight frame nucs. There were enough to over winter around 450 queens.

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## prakel

I wonder how many of those precious over wintered queens were sold? Echos of Mike Palmer come to mind, stating that their best use is in our own hives. 

Is this a part of the import issue, a reluctance by those who've gone to the trouble of over wintering queens to then part with them at anything less than very top price? Who would want to compete with early queens from the continent on a £ for £ basis which is of course what drives most imports? Discussing a similar matter with someone a couple of weeks back I was told that Mr X (absolutely genuine breeder) could supply a batch of 40 queens in very early May 2015, including shipping and all paperwork at his end for £12.30 each. What kind of deal could he offer on 200 queens?

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