# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Position of Mating Nucs

## prakel

In the thread on 'absconding apideas' Gavin wrote:





> It didn't look to me that absconding was worse during the hotter spells but they probably did need a little sun to head off. 
> 
> What about height off the ground? Two I have a metre or so off the ground have stayed put despite a degree of overcrowding whereas their sister were off.


This ties in nicely for me as I'm currently thinking about stands for mating nucs having been offered a superb mating apiary for next year -just ran out of time to get it stocked this year. 

In the past I've always preferred to place mating nucs directly on the ground. I'm pretty sure that I was told that ground based mating nucs give a higher success rate than those on high stands (as well as also suiting my preferred method of hive inspection). Of course, I can't actually remember who offered that tip to me so it may be  a totally unfounded piece of advice. That said, it does work. However I'm hoping that my new site will be a long term project and as such I think that it could be a good opportunity to put in permanent pole stands to keep the boxes out of the grass.

So question, do you have specific preferences with regards to siting mating nucs on the ground or on poles/stands etc? If you do is there a definate reason for your choice or is it simply something that you've adopted without too much consideration?

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## Jon

This is our set up.
One major advantage of having the apideas raised up is that there is not so much stooping to do.

It is also useful to have a table in full sun where you can carry apideas for inspections.

apideas-minnowburn.jpg

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## fatshark

I've got some on the ground and some on "conventional" hive stands.  The former are a pain in the neck (and back and knees) to inspect.  I've not noticed any difference in absconding frequency or mating success.  I've always liked the idea of the sort of post setup that Jon shows but have yet to get round to do anything about it.  I do always place them in pairs with the entrances facing opposing directions.  I then use the roof of the closed box to place the roof, cover screen and inverted frames of the mini-nuc being inspected.  My best queens seem to come from boxes in the bottom of the hedge in my back garden ... since these cause the most creaking joints to inspect perhaps they are ignored a little more and just allowed to get on with things?  Or perhaps there are a better class of drone here than on the local farmland  :Wink:

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## gavin

That Minnowburn apiary has the look of a science fiction set about it, where strange creatures with post-box mouths pop up out of the ground when you least expect it.

Never one to shy away from copying a good idea when I see it (and this one was in the Fife association apiary) we cut lengths of that decking with the grooved face and screwed them onto posts.  This was last year.  The Fife guys screwed in hooks to the underside so that they could loop over some spare bicycle inner tubing, but I never got that far, instead using thick rubber bands that come with the mail into our building and which, it seems, blue tits or great spotted woodpeckers (the apiary has both) or something delight in pecking at until they snap.  They have to get their kicks somehow.  The height was pleasing, but the attachment of the little platforms to the post (one screw vertically down into the post) was insubstantial and winter removed the platforms.  

This year I took the path of least resistance and placed them on an unused slab.  Delighted to have that little absconding theory (based on a sample of two off the ground) thoroughly bedunked.  That's what the forum is for.

I suspect that we need to keep at the grafting lark for a few years.  In a small number of them (years) we'll all have selected for stocks that behave well in Apideas.

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## Jon

Apideas are best left alone for 2 weeks after the virgin emerges apart from checking if there is food in the compartment.
Too much tinkering leads to lost queens.
I left 30 apideas behind when I went abroad for 3 weeks in July and I had 25 mated queens when I came back.
I noticed in our queen rearing group that some of the keenest guys who check their apideas about 4 times per week have no mated queens yet. Sometimes less is more.

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## prakel

Some interesting thoughts so far (Jon, thanks for the photo of your set up). The recurring issue of avoiding kneeling/bending isn't really a problem for myself as I actually prefer to do most of my beekeeping on my knees! I suppose that when my knees do finally pack in I'll have to build one of those quaint little stools which have a drawer full of bee 'bits and pieces' underneath.... 

It's actually going against my normal operating mode to consider raising the mating nucs to a position where I can stand and work them but as this new apiary will only need (hopefully) to be set up once I think that it deserves some serious consideration from myself -and if I can tap into the views of others regarding possible differences between ground based and high rise nucs at the same time, all the better.

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## Jon

What I try and do this year is carry them to a table or even the top of a hive so I can work them at a comfortable height.
if you have to keep stooping or working bent over you will get a back problem sooner rather than later.
A guy in our group made all the stands and it has been a real improvement.
You can't really see clearly from the photo but there is a little batten nailed on to the edge of each stand which allows the apidea to be held tight between the batten and the central post so no need for inner tubes or rubber bands.

Edit.
Actually you can see the batten reasonably clearly, the little white strip at the edge of the first stand.

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## Black Comb

I attended Terry Claire's queen rearing course at Newport this year and he makes "tables" for his, ( 2 apideas per table) all at waist height.

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## Jon

Terry has been at our place at Minnowburn but it was a couple of years ago when we were just starting up.

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## Rosie

I have fixed a flat square of ply onto the top of some of my fence posts on which I can stand 4 mini-nucs.

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## prakel

A few photo's of this new site now that it's been formally agreed with all concerned.

*photos edited out on by prakel.*

No real need to upload them but my day has been as quiet as this forum of late so maybe it'll work as a gentle 'bump' for more oppinions.

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## fatshark

That site looks like a good one to select for strong flying queens :Big Grin:   Is that the sea in the background of pics 2 and 3?  How windy is it there?  Access looks pretty good.

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## prakel

It is indeed the sea, but then, you're never more than a mile or so from the sea on Portland. We normally have a couple days each year which aren't windy! It is a good testing ground though; I often joke about living in the tropical South but to be honest the tropics don't begin till you cross the causeway to Weymouth.

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## Poly Hive

B. Mobus used minis on the ground and did not have any stands for them I am aware of. I would think myself that it would be easier for the queens to obtain markers at ground level than from on a post. I place mine on a board on the ground, the board to suppress grass and so on to avoid damaging the slides and or blocking the entrances. Pretty good success rates obtained. 

PH

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## prakel

> B. Mobus used minis on the ground and did not have any stands for them I am aware of. I would think myself that it would be easier for the queens to obtain markers at ground level than from on a post. I place mine on a board on the ground, the board to suppress grass and so on to avoid damaging the slides and or blocking the entrances. Pretty good success rates obtained. 
> 
> PH


I think that I pretty much agree. I've definately now decided on keeping the nucs down low, probably on boards which have a couple of lengths of fence post screwed to the underside. No point in over engineering the thing.

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## Jon

I know people who have had apideas chewed up by foxes or badgers so up on a post is safer.
But the main reason for me is to avoid the stooping.
I wrecked my back a couple of years ago when I was looking after about 70 apideas at ground level.

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## prakel

A couple of good reasons Jon, but the stooping aspect isn't a problem as I actually prefer to kneel down when dealing with bees, I did write about this on another thread back last summer. The boxes I'm going to be using this year are basically like the wooden ones which I trialled last year (designed to take the Lyson mini plus frames) but with a few design tweaks. Just as well as the rats have now made huge holes in four of the mini plus'. Sad to see such good quality kit ruined...

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## Dark Bee

I recall listening to a lecture on grassland management. The lecturer stated that temperatures at ground level can be significantly more than a few feet higher up. Assuming this to be the case and I have no reason to believe otherwise; it may be of relevance as to why mini-nucs located there thrive or abscond !

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## Jon

HI DB
A couple of years ago when I was at the Galtee apiary I remember Michael Mac said to make sure they had plenty of shade and to push them well into the hedge if you have them lined up there.
That picture I posted earlier in the thread is along a north facing hedge with a huge Lime tree above providing additional shade.
I only had 6 of my own apideas on that site but I got 9 mated queens from them.

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## Dark Bee

I'm pleased that you had an opportunity to visit Dun Aonghasa Apiary. Glengarra Wood adjoins the site and M.M. uses the shade from this to position the apideas. They used to be on upturned pallets supported on posts a couple of feet high - one apidea in each corner.
In full sun it is easy to turn them into mini "cookers", I have heard of the comb melting and honey flowing out the entrance of apideas positioned thus. It probably did happen, but as I did not witness the event, it is difficult to know how much credence to give to the claim.

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## Jon

Any time I have been daft enough to set an apidea out in the open it has absconded on the first hot day.

It was September when i was at MM's apiary, the year of the Bibba conference so the season was pretty much over but the apideas we saw were 4 to a pallet.

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## Neils

> Any time I have been daft enough to set an apidea out in the open it has absconded on the first hot day.
> 
> It was September when i was at MM's apiary, the year of the Bibba conference so the season was pretty much over but the apideas we saw were 4 to a pallet.


Last year was my first go with apideas, I set them out on top of hives, in the sun, I lost 75% of that batch. Put the next batch in the shade and none of them absconded.

Put that down the beginners error.

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## drumgerry

So am I right in thinking Apideas on the ground isn't a bad thing?  Where I have them the ground is a thin coat of grass and soil on top of pretty much solid rubble so putting in posts for them would be pretty hellish.  Last year I had them sitting on top of breeze blocks but if they could just sit on the ground that would be easier.

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## Jon

They work fine at ground level but be careful with your back!

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## Black Comb

I have a spare double hive stand, just the right height for my back.
At 5' long I'm thinking a pair of doubles at each end.
Would this work?

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## Jon

The shade is the main thing and make sure there is a brick on top if they are somewhere the wind can catch them.
We had the odd one blown off a stand at the mating apiary site.

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## Adam

I had a few absconding last year - but not before - so maybe it was just a funny year! (I saw balling last year for the first time too).
I have some roof tiles which I use - they cover most of a mini-nuc so might well shade it a bit. Jon, your observation about 'full sun and the bees will fly' is a good one to remember. However the shadiest place where I have kept mini-nucs is where they have mated very badly. Maybe it's just getting to know the location that works. (Back to ley lines and all that malarky??).

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## Dark Bee

> Any time I have been daft enough to set an apidea out in the open it has absconded on the first hot day.
> 
> It was September when i was at MM's apiary, the year of the Bibba conference so the season was pretty much over but the apideas we saw were 4 to a pallet.


The hospitality of the GBBA knows no bounds; were you treated to a wee glass of the white wine produced locally? One coach party decided to go on to Killarney instead of returning to Dublin. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Kate Atchley

*How far from Apiary & brood mothers?*

I'm about to 'set' 15 mini nucs (Apideas) and have been reading lots of this useful advice ... what a fantastic resource!

But I've found no discussion on where to place the nucs in relation to the brood mother hives/apiary. Are they best at a distance from the apiary, as well as a metre or so from one another, ideally? There's lots of space up here ... oh, and useful shade too. 

I may as well be fussy about the detail  :Confused:

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## Dark Bee

One aspect of nuc. location that seems to me to be important, but often is ignored, is keep the nuc. well away from the flight lines of the full size hives. One of the best things to have between nucs and hives is distance :Wink: . It will help stop v. queens being swept away when out for a flight.

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## Jon

In an ideal world you move the apideas a couple of miles from the colonies used to fill them.
I don't usually do this and I find that the critical thing to avoid too many bees returning to the hive of origin is (a) fill the apidea with young bees which have not flown yet and (b) don't open the apidea until the virgin queen has emerged from her cell.

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## drumgerry

My first year of queen rearing I neglected to follow point (a) of Jon's and lost most of the bees in my mininucs to absconding.  Total disaster!  Subsequent years using bees from supers and therefore hopefully young bees has meant only the odd lot absconding when finally opened.  I'm happy to place my apideas in the same apiary as their parent hives but point (a) is critical.  Point (b) as well of course Jon!

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## Kate Atchley

*Thanks*  :Big Grin:  Dark Bee, Jon and drumgerry.

All very helpful. I can source bees for the mini-nucs from different apiaries than those where they'll be placed; can deal with the suggested distances; and will keep the mini-nucs in a dark place, unopened, until the Qs have emerged (2-3 days probably). Does that sounds sensible? 

Would you like to hear how I get on?

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## Jon

That 3 days in the dark advice before introducing the cell is unnecessary if you were thinking of doing that.
Fill the apideas and leave them outside in full shade overnight.
Introduce the cells the next day, preferably just one day from queen emergence.
I don't use an incubator and when I graft I put roller cages over the cells on day 9. (3 days from emergence)
The cells are introduced to apideas on day 11 (1 day from emergence)
The odd virgin emerges early but is kept away from destroying the other cells by the roller cage.
If you have a virgin queen, you will have a higher acceptance rate by misting her and tipping her into the apidea through the floor followed by a scoop of wet bees on top of her. Open the apidea in its site 24 hours later.
With introduced cells, check every 24 hours by removing the cell from the entrance hole and only open when the virgin is out of the cell.

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## drumgerry

Sounds like a plan Kate!  And this is where the design of Apideas excels.  No taking your life in your hands to spray them with water twice a day as with Kielers!

Please keeps us updated Kate.  I'd love to hear how you get on.

Gerry

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## drumgerry

I did the 3 day thing last year Jon but it was my first year with Apideas.  It did work in that I only lost one lot to absconding but glad to hear it's not strictly necessary.

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## Adam

If you shake in bees to the mini-nucs from the same colony as the queencells come from and at the same time, there's little chance of rejection. Then as post 31.

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## Jon

> If you shake in bees to the mini-nucs from the same colony as the queencells come from and at the same time, there's little chance of rejection. Then as post 31.


That's worth noting, especially if you only have a couple of apideas to fill.
If you shake in bees from the cell raiser colony they can take the cells right away as they are their own cells.
No chance of rejection.

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## Kate Atchley

Promised an update and took a look at the 11 mini-nucs which had cells from grafting or Cupkit rearing. News seems encouraging! All present and correct ... no absconding or showing a shortage of bees though there is some variation in the amount of comb they have drawn out. They all had to start from scratch.
EUREKA ... four have eggs! The queens look fine but it's too soon to guage their laying quality. There's no larvae yet so laying has started very recently and the weather pattern suggests others will have had to bide their time to finish mating so I had expected a 'gap' and I hope there are more to follow.
A couple of the mini-colonies were very stroppy which made me think they lack a virgin queen? The rest seemed calm and preparing space for the queen to lay. All were bringing in pollen.  I fed more fondant as necessary. 
Several, without eggs, had made a queen cup. Is this a sign they too may lack a queen?
How soon do you suggest I move them on to full-sized nucs or to introduce to colonies? I thought I'd probably wait a week or so to see some brood sealed ... yes?

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## Jon

That Denney research I linked to the other day said to wait at least 28 days from emergence before moving queens from mini nucs and 35 days is better. At a minimum wait until brood is sealed so that you can see it is normal worker brood.

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## Kate Atchley

How important is it to put queen excluder across the entrance once she's laying? The wee Apidea ones are a squeeze for my bees and fairly sharp so I'm reluctant to use them. Could cut a few plastic ones?

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## Jon

Cut a few of the bigger plastic ones as they do try and abscond.
Once they decide to abscond, you need to get the queen out asap as they will keep trying irrespective of the excluder and I find they eventually kill the queen. Not sure why but you find the queen dead on the floor of the apidea.
the other thing you can do for a few days is cage the queen and put the cage in the feed compartment.

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## prakel

> I know people who have had apideas chewed up by foxes or badgers so up on a post is safer.


These have turned out to be prophetic words, wished I'd paid more attention sooner  :Smile:

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## Bridget

> How important is it to put queen excluder across the entrance once she's laying? The wee Apidea ones are a squeeze for my bees and fairly sharp so I'm reluctant to use them. Could cut a few plastic ones?


I was wondering about this .  A hive does not have a QE at the entrance so why do you use one on an apidea and when? I put one on my apidea with a few eggs and then decided to take it off.  Once she has started laying is that the end of the mating flights?

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## Jon

Apideas are very prone to absconding so better with the excluder on. Once you see eggs the queen will not leave on another mating flight.

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