# General beekeeping > Alternative beekeeping >  Smoke vs Water (or other alternatives)

## Neils

No idea where to put this one, but as it often crops up in the "Natural" beekeeper's armoury I thought here might not be a bad place.

I've read a lot of the arguments about smoke being "bad" to use on bees and while some of the reasons are propagated by beekeepers themselves I wonder just how much research if any has been done on just what and how smoke affects bees.

For example, it's often claimed that smoke puts bees into a state where they prepare to abandon the hive on the basis that a fire's coming. How much truth actually is there to this claim?

The other, perhaps more clear cut claim is that the scent of the smoke masks the pheromones and therefore makes it harder for the bees to communicate, especially alarm and attack pheromones.

Water spray, with or without sugar, has been fairly frequently pushed as a much less stressful/harmful alternative to smoke, but what little I have seen of it in use, it seems pretty drastic to me and seems to be effective by simply drenching bees to the point they can't fly.

Both methods seem to be reasonably effective at dispersing bees, I can't say I particularly like standing in smoke or rain, so I don't really blame them.

How much do we actually know about how smoke affects bees and is spraying them with water really any better, or less stressful, for them?

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## Jon

A couple of puffs of smoke on removal of the crown board, left to drift over the top bars, is generally all I use.
Some people put smoke in the entrance but I don't think that is a good idea as it drives the bees up instead of down and half the cluster will be adhering to the underside of the crown board on removal.
Equally bad advice, imho, is pumping the hive full of smoke and waiting 5 minutes before opening it.
I used to do all this stuff as I was advised to but I find it is not necessary.
It's better to take a gentle approach and work with the bees rather than trying to drive them into submission with a heavy duty smoker and a pair of heavy gloves.
Too much smoke is a bad thing and will definitely agitate bees rather than calming them. It also makes the queen hide somewhere.
Water helps to keep bees on the frames rather than in the air but I don't see how it is less stressful than smoke.
It's another of those things that have got incorporated into 'natural' beekeeping without any supporting evidence. Bees do not actually like getting wet.
Some colonies can be opened without smoke or water but it's good to have the smoker lit and ready as any colony can have an off day.
I find that some colonies react well to smoke and others do not much like it.
Some very aggressive colonies are calmed by smoke and others go buck mad when smoked.
If you open at the right time of day when a lot of bees are out foraging and the colony vibe is good you should be able to get by with very little smoke or water.

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## Neils

Does anyone not start out billowing great big clouds of smoke everywhere?

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## HensandBees

I was advised  not to use sugar in a water spray as the bees licking it off could pull the hairs out leaving bald bees as in CBPV .. not sure if the advice was saying you cannot tell then if you have the virus or whether the holes left behind could give an access point for the virus to get in and a hold

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## chris

If it's natural beekeeping, then I'd have thought the water would contain a variety of natural oils.The first time I heard of this method was when it was advocated by a certain James Fischer who claimed to know almost everything. He certainly had an extensive scientific knowledge, but didn't quote any paper to back up his choice of  water spraying. I've never tried it as I don't like the idea of adding moisture to the inside of the hive.I'm sure though that it must be useful outside the hive in temporarily keeping a swarm from flying off.

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## Trog

I've heard of spraying a swarm to keep them from flying off but can usually get to the swarm box faster than a water spray!

I personally wouldn't be keen on spraying water from a container that had been kicking around in my bee kit for perhaps a week (or even for an hour in the heat of a car) onto the tops of honey supers which might contain open cells.  Who knows what bacteria one might be introducing?

We give one gentle puff of smoke at the entrance to let the bees know we're there, wait a wee while, then take of the roof and crown board gently.  Further puff across frames if they seem to need it but usually the smoker goes out through lack of use! Seems to work with our bees.  Sometimes we have to smoke them down off the frame tops when putting qx back on to avoid squashing/rolling bees if there's a lot of traffic on a sunny day but still don't use a lot of smoke.

Of course, some beekeepers believe you shouldn't use smoke or take the cover off a hive at all so as not to disrupt the colony pheremones and they are entitled to their opinions, especially if it means more swarms available for those looking for them!  :Wink:

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## madasafish

I use smoke on TBHs for colonies that are agitated/easily annoyed. But for colonies in a good mood/warm days or when feeding I use a water spray.

Water only. I tried sugar but water is more effective: if you spray sugar solution the bees want to stop to collect it: if you spray water, the bees run away. Ideal when closing bars on a TBH where the risk is of crushing bees.

A spray is more convenient as well (although I light smokers using a two flame mini blowlamp which takes 30secs with dead wood.)

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## HensandBees

I listened to a (dire) reading of Langsroth on the Hive of the Honey Bee last year, and he advocated spraying the bees with sugar solution, apparently it made the bees keen to see him and very gentle but maybe he did nt see CBPV.....

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## Cherie84

I agree with madasafish, smoke's being hyped these days a lot, but in fact using it for colonies is not the best idea. I prefer to use water, too. Just my two cents though...
__________________________
Not really appropriate for a beekeeping forum - Nellie.

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## Jon

Based on observation rather than 'natural' beekeeping dogma, both smoke and water can be effective and sometimes neither is needed.
I cannot see on what basis water is more natural than smoke.
If you consider a natural situation, it never rains inside a hollow tree but it is quite possible that smoke could drift into the nest during a forest fire.
Reacting quickly to the presence of smoke is likely to be an evolutionary strategy to enable a colony to tank up and abscond when their nest is under threat from fire.
Using smoke is taking advantage of a behaviour which has evolved in the honeybee over millions of years.

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## chris

> If you consider a natural situation, it never rains inside a hollow tree .


No, but when a dinosaur used to cock its back leg...........................

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## madasafish

I base my choice not on "natural beekeeping" methods - a contradiction in terms in my view - but based on convenience and effectiveness coupled with need.

Bees tend to dislike cold rain... dinosaur pee was probably lukewarm :-)

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## Jon

I was actually paraphrasing one of my favourite sayings.
When people start complaining about the rain I often point out that it never rains in a bar.

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## HensandBees

actually it is not unknown ..... been paddling before now amongst the beer barrels

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## lindsay s

> If you consider a natural situation, it never rains inside a hollow tree but it is quite possible that smoke could drift into the nest during a forest fire.
> Reacting quickly to the presence of smoke is likely to be an evolutionary strategy to enable a colony to tank up and abscond when their nest is under threat from fire.
> Using smoke is taking advantage of a behaviour which has evolved in the honeybee over millions of years.



Its a good job that evolution goes back millions of years because my bees have never seen a forest let alone one on fire; maybe a heath fire might jog their memories.
Seriously though I have often wondered about the effect of smoke on unsealed honey and the risk of it being tainted. I use cardboard and clean hessian in my smoker but maybe theres someone out there burning pretty toxic stuff.

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## Rosie

> I use cardboard and clean hessian in my smoker but maybe there’s someone out there burning pretty toxic stuff.


Are you sure your cardboard isn't toxic?  I use hay these days and hope it's not full of pesticides.

Rosie

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## Jon

Oops, Careful. You mentioned that 'P' word again.

I collect bags of leaves and store them in a shed until they are well dried.
You get a great smell of forest fire from the smoker.
I use a bit of paper and cardboard to start it off.

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## chris

> Oops, Careful. You mentioned that 'P' word again.


I use hay from our fields, so no *p*, though perhaps a little sheep and goat pee :Embarrassment: 
And I also add a little propolis to purify it all, though I think that's where someone will step in and direct me to the *myths* thread.

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## beeanne

I'm still working my way through a bag of bee tobacco my mother in law bought me from Thornes 3 years ago. Odd Christmas present, esp as she also bought me 2 jars honey.

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## Bumble

I smoke my bees. I tried using water spray, but then felt guilty because I know they don't like getting wet.

There are a things about the pheromone blocking effects of smoke that I don't fully understand. I've read an extract from a study that seems to show that smoke (and 'floral odor') stops bees from communicating, with the effects wearing off in about 20 minutes. http://www.springerlink.com/content/v172010112682748/ 

I've also read, seen pictures http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-...r-pool-part-1/, and also seen for myself that bees go and feed themselves as soon as they get a whiff of smoke, but then they hang around and do nothing much. It seems a bit counter-productive, in evolutionary terms, because it looks as if, if they were surrounded by smoke, that they'd sit there and do nothing instead of making a swift exit to save the colony from being burned.

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## madasafish

When I use a smoker I use dry rotten birch wood. Five seconds with a blowlamp and it's lit. (Paper and matches are  so 19th century:-) Only trouble is it smoulders quickly so I have to pack the smoker full. The good bit is the smoke is cool , there is little resin (so the smoker does not tar up) and the bees run away quickly.

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## Jamestaylor

On the off chance that you intently notice your honey bees on a blistering summer evening, you might discover them hanging out on the patio smoking. All things considered, they've acquired it, having visited many blossoms before in the day. These are basically the more established foragers, albeit, infrequently you will see more youthful honey bees attempting to participate.
The medical attendant honey bees get pretty furious about this action, as they understand the wellbeing suggestions, however, their grievances will in general fail to be noticed.
In any case, truly. The examination says, "It's coldblooded to work honey bees without smoking them." Meaning: if they sting you they will bite the dust, and that is remorseless.
It is felt that when honey bees smell smoke it makes them think there is a woodland fire coming and they gorge on nectar fully expecting to escape. Full honey bees will in general be much more settled.
A little smoke at the front and under the cover is a decent beginning. As you work through your honey bees you will actually want to tell on the off chance that you need to add more smoke. Now and again, on the off chance that you have a breeze, you can put your smoker down, upwind, and let it float over the highest point of your stack.
OK, HERE'S THE WAY I DO IT:
1: Approach from the back or side
2: Reach around and shoot a couple of puffs in the front entryway
3: Be certain to slam your smoker against the front of the hive and say, "Possum coming, Possum coming!" This will make the sovereign run-up
4: At the rear of the hive, raise only the rear of the external cover and puff a little in here and afterward put it down
5: Wait 20 seconds and eliminate the external cover
6: Puff again at the opening in the internal cover and afterward eliminate
7: Observe the honey bees and see what they're doing, they're presumably checking out you
8: Begin working the hive and smoke across the top bars. On the off chance that the honey bees are effectively attempting to kill you, smoke once more
WHAT TO USE IN YOUR SMOKER
I consume clean burlap in my smokers more often than not. I have additionally consumed pine needles, old sovereign enclosures, dried grass. The general purpose isn't to put anything harmful into your smoker like treated wood, sleek clothes, or plastic. You are after a cool white smoke, not something like a consuming tire.
I like burlap as it will light with a match and it keeps going for some time. In any event, when consuming something different, it actually makes a decent starter. At the point when you puff smoke at your honey bees ensure you are not shooting flares out of the finish of your smoker, this can adversely affect your honey bees. Likewise be certain not to over smoke them as this might make them more protective and at least, will upset your hive more.
Regardless of what you consume in your smoker, it will make creosote. At the point when this develops it can make it truly difficult to get the cover off your smoker. On the off chance that you take a propane light and hotness up the cover, it will fall off without any problem. Try to open your smoker while it's as yet hot and not seal it firmly. Cleaning it sometimes is likewise an alternative.
So when I work with my honey bees I generally have a lit smoker with me. Permit your honey bees to let you know how much smoke to utilize. In case they are quiet, utilize less, in case they are protective, utilize more.
DOES SIZE MATTER?
uh, wellyes it does. If you have anything over around four hives I would recommend getting a jumbo smoker. There isn't anything as disappointing as having your smoker run out of fuel when you have the cover of a hive of guarded honey bees. Be certain your smoker will endure through the number of hives you plan to work. It tends to be difficult to reload a smoker while you are wearing stuff and covered with honey bees.
Additionally, I would put in two or three additional bucks to get a safeguard. Safeguards permit you to put a hot smoker down without burning the surface you set it on. What's more, a safeguard might save you from terrible burns as the barrels of smokers get exceptionally hot.
Cheerful smoking!

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