# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Apiary Vicinity mating again

## Jon

I saw a perfect example of this today in my back garden where I have about 40 Apideas, most of them with virgins at the moment.
About 4.30 I noticed the mating swarm in the air and it settled in a Rowan tree in my next door neighbour's garden just over the fence.
This is part of the process of AVM, the bees circle in the air with a load of drones present then settle around the queen the same way they do with a swarm.
I have not worked out what role this plays in the process but I have seen it dozens of times now.
I checked through the apideas and found the one which was depleted and queenless and kept an eye on it.
About 6pm the cluster broke and the bees rose in the air and moved to the entrance of the Apidea and started fanning.
I watched it carefully from about 6 feet away and saw the queen land on the front and go in.

There was speculation in earlier discussions as to whether this behaviour was mating or absconding so I think that is settled as bees do not abscond only to change their mind a couple of hours later.
The other thing is that the bees return before the queen, who is almost the last bee to return, so this behaviour must be driven by the workers rather than the queen.
That queen will be laying in 2-3 days when I check.

Hopefully she mated ok as she emerged on 14th July so must be near her sell by date.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Jon would that queen have the mating sign?

----------


## Jon

Not when she went into the apidea but she had been in a cluster of bees for 90 minutes.

----------


## SDM

Perhaps it's some of her pheromones kick starting ?

----------


## prakel

> Not when she went into the apidea but she had been in a cluster of bees for 90 minutes.


Do you feel that the 'swarm' picks up sufficient drones while in the air and then they mate while the cluster has settled? Or, does the mating take place on the wing prior to the cluster settling. Any thoughts on the reason for clustering so long?

----------


## Jon

I think they mate in the air on the wing. The purpose of the little cluster is a mystery to me but it must have some function in the mating process as it happens so often.

----------


## gavin

> I think they mate in the air on the wing. The purpose of the little cluster is a mystery to me but it must have some function in the mating process as it happens so often.


Voyeur bees.   :Wink:

----------


## prakel

> I think they mate in the air on the wing.


What's the average time that they're in the air?

----------


## Jon

about 15 minutes

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Voyeur bees.


bee dogging ?

----------


## prakel

> about 15 minutes


Interesting. Seems like a long time to be in the air if she's mating on site. Think Dr G Koeniger reckons that five minutes is plenty long enough + travel time which obviously isn't relevant here. Maybe she needs a 'warm up' on the wing prior to mating? Any thoughts on this?

----------


## Jon

I am sure a queen can mate with sufficient drones in 5 minutes. The 15 minutes includes time for the cluster to congeal around the queen so she is not in the air all of this time. She alights on a leaf or a post and the workers settle around her as they do when a swarm leaves.

----------


## busybeephilip

Do you think the little swarm comes out before or after the queen leaves to mate ?

----------


## busybeephilip

You also say a load of drones, are the drones part of the swarm

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Interestingly it might tie in with another thread with queens appearing unexpectedly in hives
Probably enticed away or kidnapped by a gang of bees looking for a new queen  :Smile: 

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

----------


## busybeephilip

Immigrants

----------


## Jon

> Do you think the little swarm comes out before or after the queen leaves to mate ?


They come out together. I have seen them leave the apidea and spotted the queen leave with them.
It is likely the same process as a swarm, ie the workers push her out.

----------


## busybeephilip

Are the drones pushed out too

----------


## Jon

> You also say a load of drones, are the drones part of the swarm



Even if you fill apideas drone free they often have 30 or 40 drones in there within a day or two.
These resident ones leave with the mating swarm but I am pretty sure others are attracted into it from elsewhere in the apiary as there seem to be a lot more of them.

----------


## Jon

> Are the drones pushed out too



The apidea is usually completely empty unless it has a few bees just emerged which are too young to fly. All the drones leave.
The one in the garden I mentioned at the start was a 5 frame well filled apidea and it had a few bees left in it.
I think the mating swarm needs a relatively small number of bees which more of less coincides with the population of an apidea.
The single time I sawthis from a full colony during a supersedure it was a similar amount of bees, 3 or 4 hundred at most.

----------


## busybeephilip

Wow..seems like a lot of drones invading an apidea.

So,  The workers, drones and queen all come out at the same time.  The workers and drones fly around aimlessly.  Is the queen part of this mini swarm or does she fly away off to mate ?

----------


## Jon

> Wow..seems like a lot of drones invading an apidea.
> 
> So,  The workers, drones and queen all come out at the same time.  The workers and drones fly around aimlessly.  Is the queen part of this mini swarm or does she fly away off to mate ?


The movement is not aimless. It is circular over the apiary and the queen is in it. I have seen her in the air once or twice. It is not high up, only about 10 feet off the ground. We saw the end of this at Minnowburn yesterday as we were leaving, about 5 of us present. The bees had just lifted off and were returning to an apidea and were all over the front of it. It happens at every apiary I have so it's not location specific.

----------


## busybeephilip

Do you see the queen in the swarm actually being pursued by the drones within the swarm ?

----------


## prakel

You really need to organize some fiming for next season to try and get the mating recorded. 

As one internationally respected expert* on bee sex commented to me, after taking the time to read through the previous AVM thread 'proof.... would create an international sensation (in scientific circles)'. 

*Private conversation, so I won't be elaborating further at this time.

----------


## Jon

I don't see any drone comet associated with this.

----------


## Jon

I have little snippets of various stages of this but getting the entire sequence recorded from start to finish would be quite a challenge.

----------


## Jon

This is the little cluster you get after the mating swarm.
This was 12 July 2014

----------


## Jon

This preceded the little cluster settling

There are bees moving right to left in the shot as well towards hives to the left so it is not that clear.

----------


## busybeephilip

There is definitely some sort of swarming behavior going on - no doubt on that.  I have observed this same thing in my own Amm bess but also to some extent in other races with bees in mating nucs.

whether it can be described as mating is a bit up in the air (pun) as no comet is observed and no mating sign seen on the queens return or in the wee cluster of bees (as far as i am aware from Jons comments).

Have never seen them returning to an apidea before but i can think of reasons for that scenario to happen in relation to absconding

The fact that the queen begins to lay a few days later is irrelevant and does not prove that this swarming is a mating event, she could mate day before, before on the same day, after on the same day or the day after the swarming event


As Prakel says .. if this was demonstrated as a true mating event it would re-write the books but given that Amm mating aparies exist in europe where a lot of research is done in bee institutes now for many years and this has not been scientifically documented I still remain un-converted.

----------


## Jon

I am open to suggestions as to what this behaviour might be but this is a phenomenon which I observe several times every season at multiple apiaries and it follows the same sequence of events every time. If it is not a mating event what else could it be? Why would bees abscond and come back a couple of hours later? Makes no sense.
About 5 of us witnessed the bees returning to an apidea yesterday including the chair and vice chair of the assocciation.

When I check, the queen starts to lay 2-3 days after this event. That does not of course prove she mated during the event but it is a mighty big coincidence that it always happens 2-3 days before she starts to lay.

----------


## Jon

And I don't think this happens every time as I have seen queens returning solo showing the mating sign. I think some fly to congregation areas as described in the literature but others mate over the apiary. Could be 10% or 50%. I have no real idea on that.

----------


## busybeephilip

Put a queen excluder on the apidea  *with a newly hatched Virgin queen.* then take it off when you have a video camera ready, hope for a swarm, then observe, wait for queen to return, put excluder back on

sacrifice the queen a day after she returns to the apidea to see if she is still a virgin or a mated queen ?

----------


## gavin

> There is definitely some sort of swarming behavior going on - no doubt on that.  I have observed this same thing in my own Amm bess but also to some extent in other races with bees in mating nucs.
> 
> whether it can be described as mating is a bit up in the air (pun) as no comet is observed and no mating sign seen on the queens return or in the wee cluster of bees (as far as i am aware from Jons comments).
> 
> Have never seen them returning to an apidea before but i can think of reasons for that scenario to happen in relation to absconding
> 
> The fact that the queen begins to lay a few days later is irrelevant and does not prove that this swarming is a mating event, she could mate day before, before on the same day, after on the same day or the day after the swarming event
> 
> 
> As Prakel says .. if this was demonstrated as a true mating event it would re-write the books but given that Amm mating aparies exist in europe where a lot of research is done in bee institutes now for many years and this has not been scientifically documented I still remain un-converted.


I'm all for rewriting the books if warranted.

It isn't swarming.  Swarms never come back (unless the queen is lost) and bees will not swarm unless they have been preparing to swarm.  They either 'know' that they are leaving behind queen cells at a relative early stage, or they've had the evidence of a queen quacking in a cell to prove it.  If they are not leaving behind a viable queen cell and are planning coming back it is nothing like swarming.

It isn't absconding.  They never come back either.

It is coincident with mating as virgins lay a couple of days later.  Workers hussle the queen out.  

OK, I do agree that video of a queen returning quickly with the mating sign would be the ultimate proof, but until then the circumstantial evidence is strong.

If Jon can get proof of that then the delightful irony is that Jon will have proved Beo Cooper right all along  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## gavin

> Put a queen excluder on the apidea  *with a newly hatched Virgin queen.* then take it off when you have a video camera ready, hope for a swarm, then observe, wait for queen to return, put excluder back on
> 
> sacrifice the queen a day after she returns to the apidea to see if she is still a virgin or a mated queen ?


Nice ideas.  Or just leave the mated virgin behind the excluder to lay fertile eggs.  But you might need to monitor queen movements during orientation flights too as she might not fly to mate the first time.

----------


## busybeephilip

> I'm all for rewriting the books if warranted.
> 
> It is coincident with mating as virgins lay a couple of days later.  Workers hussle the queen out.  
> 
> p


It may well be.. but still does not prove that mating takes place within this "swarm"

----------


## busybeephilip

> Nice ideas.  Or just leave the mated virgin behind the excluder to lay fertile eggs.  But you might need to monitor queen movements during orientation flights too as she might not fly to mate the first time.



The experiment should work apart from a real mating flight taking place first of all prior to the "swarm" ahh...but then the mating sign would be visable on her return so the experiment would conclude at that stage

And if she did go on a "swarm" it may add weight to this not being a mating event but some sort of swarming behaviour

----------


## Jon

I have seen dozens, probably hundreds, of queens return to apideas and I have only seen a queen showing the mating sign twice. I saw one enter an apidea and by the time I had the top off to get a pic they had it cleaned it off her and that was less than 5 minutes from I saw it.

Where you are almost guaranteed to see this behaviour is the first sunny afternoon after a couple of weeks of poor weather.
Beo Cooper argued that AVM was a strategy for mating locally in poor weather but that is definitely not what I see.
This happens when it is sunny, calm and usually 18c or more.
Most of my sites have 50 of so Apideas so if the conditions are right several should take a mating flight on a good afternoon.

Phil, if you witnessed this you would see that there is definitely something very coordinated going on on the part of the bees.

I must go and check that one I mentioned in the OP as she should be laying this evening or tomorrow.

I can see how there is a doubt as to whether she actually mates within this swarm from the apidea but I do not think there is much doubt that this behaviour has some role in the mating process, possibly the central one.

Leaving aside any interpretation re mating, why would bees and a queen leave the security of a hive/apidea, fly round in a tight circle for 10-15 minutes, cluster in a ball for an hour then return. It's hardly for their own entertainment so it must have a purpose.

----------


## Jon

No eggs yet but polished cells and the queen looks mated to me. She has the movement of a mated queen.
Some of the workers are starting to form a court around her.

Took this 10 minutes ago.




The workers are from the previous incumbent of the apidea.

----------


## Jon

> Nice ideas.  Or just leave the mated virgin behind the excluder to lay fertile eggs.  But you might need to monitor queen movements during orientation flights too as she might not fly to mate the first time.


The queen takes loads of short orientation flights before taking a mating flight.
The orientation flights can take place early or late in the day but the mating flights are always between 1.30pm and 6pm.

This is an orientation flight. You can see her leave running up the side of the apidea and returning a short while later and going back in.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon 
There is some strange behavior with mating nucs 
I believe it could be low level mating as you say
I think on a normal queen orientation flight from a hive there is almost always a big fuss and bees flying out with her then coming back
Some queens appear to be  pretty hopeless flyers at the best of times so you can collect swarms with virgins practically on the ground

----------


## busybeephilip

Jon,
As luck would have it I was busy chopping down a tree with the chainsaw and a few bees started flying around me. Well, on standing back I observed mini nuc in live action AVM (perhaps)

this is what I saw, the bees in the mini all poured out of the small round hole entrance and began to circle, I watched to see if i could see a Q but nothing at all.  Some returning field bees seemed to sense that someting was wrong and simply circled around the entrance hole then flew off to i assume join the swarm.  There was no activity at the nuc for about 5-10 minutes but you could see the bees circling around the garden high and low from side to side over an area of about 25m square.  I did not notice any sign of a cluster.  After 10 mins or so the bees returned to the box and began vigorously fanning, I watched closely until the whole event was over.

My conclusion is that this is an attempt at absconding by means of some sort of swarming behaviour and is nothing to do with queen mating as there in this case no queen flying involved at all

----------


## Jon

I have seen the queens leave with all the bees and return Phil. Did you look in the box to see if there was a queen inside when this was taking place? Was it empty?

----------


## gavin

> My conclusion is that this is an attempt at absconding by means of some sort of swarming behaviour and is nothing to do with queen mating as there in this case no queen flying involved at all


Maybe also check for eggs two days from now?

----------


## Jon

> Maybe also check for eggs two days from now?


Just checked the Apidea mentioned in the first post and it is full of eggs.

----------


## mbc

> Just checked the Apidea mentioned in the first post and it is full of eggs.


Many of my queens delayed by the inclement weather have started laying now but I'll wait to see a tidy brood pattern of sealed brood before being prepared to harvest them. I know that many of their same age sisters which have already started laying have been dlq unfortunately. It's been a very indifferent July and only in the last week have we had any properly nice days for queen mating.

----------


## Jon

> Many of my queens delayed by the inclement weather have started laying now but I'll wait to see a tidy brood pattern of sealed brood before being prepared to harvest them.


Yep. Same here. I wait 10 days at least from she starts to lay. There was a 2 week spell at the end of July where there was no chance of queens mating properly and there will probably be a few drone layers in a batch or two from that period.
It has got far more difficult than it was in June. Starting with virgins in June I was getting about 90% mated and at the moment with the weather and the wasps it is more like 50%. Anything short of bees gets picked off and cleaned out very quickly by the wasps. I am trying to double up where I can to put them on to 6-8 frames rather than 3.

----------


## mbc

One of the advantages of the slightly larger mating nucs is that they're a bit more robust, not just in terms of keeping the wasps at bay but also avoiding starvation and overcrowding. Only today I found an apidea which had been successfully mated with some nice brood but bees gone, I suspect lack of food left them weak for the wasps to clear out, all the mini plus in the same site were fine.

----------


## Jon

I can see the advantages of the mini plus with regard to holding off the wasps in August.

----------


## busybeephilip

> I have seen the queens leave with all the bees and return Phil. Did you look in the box to see if there was a queen inside when this was taking place? Was it empty?


Just catching up

This was definitely an absconding event or swarming behaviour.  Yes there is a queen present.

----------


## busybeephilip

> Maybe also check for eggs two days from now?



Yes but dont need to as there is already eggs present !  definately an absconding / swarming event

----------


## busybeephilip

> I can see the advantages of the mini plus with regard to holding off the wasps in August.


Completely agree with this.  with my single framers the wasps will attack once the population gets too low, probably the same for any sort of hive, but as long as there is hatching brood and plently of candy they seem to be ok.  Any drone layers or queenless bees just get wiped out very quickly as the pop of workers decreases.

----------


## prakel

> And if she did go on a "swarm" it may add weight to this not being a mating event but some sort of swarming behaviour


Manley mentioned so called mating swarms in 'Honey Farming' where he put his own interesting spin on the phenomena. Although his account isn't exactly the way that others describe their observations it might still offer a valid line of thought. Remember also, he was using mating nucs consisting of bs frames, so considerably larger than the mini-nucs commonly used today. 




> Another trouble met with by the queen-rearer is the loss of virgins with mating swarms. These swarms are rather difficult to prevent in very hot weather when the nuclei have become too strong, for they are prone to hang out in bunches from their entrances. Now if a virgin should fly while such a cluster is hanging, the whole lot will sometimes join her and form a cluster on some bush nearby, in which case the bees never return to the hive, and if not found quickly will eventually fly away as a small swarm.
> 
> *R.O.B Manley 'Honey Farming' 1946*

----------


## busybeephilip

Hi Prakel,

Manley's description suggests that the box is over packed with bees but I dont think that that is the case in Jons apideas ?

In what I witnessed, the queen was a laying queen restrained behind an excluder, the bees left  the box coming out just like a swarm would do from a hive.  when field bees returned to the box they seemed to sense that hive had gone and they left to i assume join the swarm.  The bees returned fanning just like Jon describes but there was never any queen in the swarm as she was trapped in the box. This nuc was by no means crouded, infact i was starting to get worried about it due to wasps testing it.

I'm really at a loss as to why the bees tried to leave the box, it explains why many in many of my nucs and apideas  why one week they are full of bees then the next empty for no apparent reason.

I have now removed the excluder ( remember this is a mated laying Q) so will keep an eye out to see how long the nuc remains in situ

----------


## prakel

> Hi Prakel,
> 
> Manley's description suggests that the box is over packed with bees but I dont think that that is the case in Jons apideas ?


That's why I was careful to point out that it doesn't tie in exactly with what is being reported  :Smile:  I think the interesting part of Manley's observation is that he was associating it with two different mechanisms combined, rather than a defined form of mating behaviour.

----------


## Jon

> Hi Prakel,
> 
> 
> 
> In what I witnessed, the queen was a laying queen restrained behind an excluder, the bees left  the box coming out just like a swarm would do from a hive.


Yes that happens quite often but it is not what I am describing at all.
There is a laying queen and she lays up all the frames and if you leave her too long in the apidea they may well abscond.
that's what the excluder is for.
The bees abscond but come back as they have no queen.
problem is they will keep doing they and I find they eventually kill the queen.
When this happens you need to get the queen out and use her somewhere else.

----------


## Jon

> That's why I was careful to point out that it doesn't tie in exactly with what is being reported  I think the interesting part of Manley's observation is that he was associating it with two different mechanisms combined, rather than a defined form of mating behaviour.



I used to run around collecting the little swarms and then I realised they usually come back on their own anyway. I think some do get lost especially if several queens take to the air at the same time as the bees often end up in a clump together.

I have seen the bees leave the apidea and have seen the queen exit as well.
It's not a situation of overcrowding as described by Manley.
It is all worker driven as opposed to being queen driven. The workers leave before the queen, or at least most of them do, and they also return before the queen after the cluster breaks up and then fan at the entrance.

----------


## busybeephilip

> Yes that happens quite often but it is not what I am describing at all.
> There is a laying queen and she lays up all the frames and if you leave her too long in the apidea they may well abscond.
> that's what the excluder is for.
> The bees abscond but come back as they have no queen.
> problem is they will keep doing they and I find they eventually kill the queen.
> When this happens you need to get the queen out and use her somewhere else.



No your wrong - frame was not layed up and they have plenty of room

Of course they will come back if the queen is not with them

What I observed was a type of swarming behavaior, the bees had no reason to leave the nuc, it was not over crowded in fact about half full if even, there was plenty of food and brood in all stages plus emerging brood.

This behavior is unique to apideas and mating boxes in general and is definitely swarming related and sod all to do with mating

----------


## busybeephilip

> It is all worker driven as opposed to being queen driven. The workers leave before the queen, or at least most of them do, and they also return before the queen after the cluster breaks up and then fan at the entrance.


Well this is exactly what was happening to my nuc , 

workers leave before queen - YES
Fanning at entrance - YES
The only difference was that the queen was not able to join the swarm

Still not convinced that this swarming / absconding behaviour is anything to do with mating

----------


## busybeephilip

Jon,

I think a more likely explanation for all this is that Bee Wolf-Cooper and subsequent persons labelled nuc absconders as mating swarms for want of a better explanation and the term has been dragged up every time a mating nuc hive tries to abscond.  And each time there is no hard evidence to prove the existence of such a phenomena apart from queens laying several days later which could be totally unrelated. 

The whole concept goes against nature,eg  survival of the fittest and prevention of inbreeding

Mating behaviour has been very well examined and there is nothing published by anyone reptutable (academic) to promote other theories.

given this, there is definitely some sort of swarming behaviour related to possibly newly mated queens in mating hives

----------


## busybeephilip

I'll put forward this theory for AVM there is nothing to prove that this is incorrect


Actual AVM Phils Theory

Mating nuc is set up using youngish bees
Virgin queen or cell present
There is no laying queen pheromones present so you start get the development of laying workers
virgin mates (normally) and her pheromones change
Bees detect pheromones from partly developed laying workers plus those of a new queen
Bees dont like this and go into swarming mode because they think there is two queens in the box (speculation here)
Bees swarm with newly mated queen
Result - absconding with perhaps a return (bees confused)
(copyright Philip Earle 17.8.15)

----------


## prakel

> It's not a situation of overcrowding as described by Manley.


I find the Manley quote interesting as it suggests a coincidental combination of factors. The overcrowding bit is actually, irrelevant. He could have mistaken the trigger. The point of posting it was to add context to the idea that there could well be more than one thing happening. 

We appear to have no clear sightings of the queen mating (presumably multiple times) even though she's in such close proximity to the observer. So unless Amm queens mate while settled in a stationary cluster I can't really see how AVM can be claimed.

----------


## Jon

> I can't really see how AVM can be claimed.


I take your point but I am convinced this swarming has something to do with the mating process. The queen is in the swarm, she alights, they cluster around her for a while,  the cluster breaks and they return. At this point she has not started to lay in the apidea. 2-3 days later she starts to lay. This behaviour happens again and again year in year out at different apiaries.
There are no eggs when it occurs and I always find them 2-3 days later.
If this were a random event why does it always precede the start of egg laying.
I also saw this happen once from a full colony with the supersedure queen. I posted about it on the forum at the time. there were only a few hundred workers involved plus the queen.
If you were able to see this for yourself you would be convinced there is something very organised going on as opposed to absconding.

----------


## Jon

> I'll put forward this theory for AVM there is nothing to prove that this is incorrect
> (speculation here)


There is an invisible green triangle rotating above my head.
There is nothing to prove that this is incorrect.

----------


## gavin

I can see it!!

----------


## prakel

> If you were able to see this for yourself you would be convinced there is something very organised going on as opposed to absconding.


I'd truly love to see this behaviour, first hand, and don't doubt that 'something' is going on. Having spent a lot of time watching behaviour at a DCA some years ago it would be fascinating to see this event too. 

____________________
Jon, earlier in this thread Gavin referred to the irony of you proving Beo Cooper right. Far more ironic, I think, is that one of the primary supporters of the AVM theory is beekeeping's very own MythBuster  :Smile:   :Smile: .

----------


## busybeephilip

> There is an invisible green triangle rotating above my head.
> There is nothing to prove that this is incorrect.


Jon,
There is help you can get for that  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> Far more ironic, I think, is that one of the primary supporters of the AVM theory is beekeeping's very own MythBuster  .


Yes I know!
I am trying to be objective about what I see and I am not about to stumble into ley line territory any time soon.
It could be to the queen flies to a DCA the day before I witness this 'AvM' event and what I am seeing has a different role in the development of a fertile queen which does not involve the direct mating with drones. Migration of sperm in the spermatheca, queen pheromone development, sharing colony scent etc.
The swarm always contains the queen and it returns to its home be it nuc, apidea, or colony.
What I am certain about is that this is an organised non random event and it is not absconding or an aborted attempt to abscond. I see absconding from apideas as well and there is a clear difference. Absconding usually takes place after a queen has started to lay and sometimes takes place just a day or two after she has started to lay with only eggs being left in the apidea. The usual suspects apply - overheating, overcrowding, too small a space.

----------


## busybeephilip

> Yes I know!
> 
> The swarm always contains the queen and it returns to its home be it nuc, apidea, or colony.
> What I am certain about is that this is an organised non random event and it is not absconding or an aborted attempt to abscond. I see absconding from apideas as well and there is a clear difference. Absconding usually takes place after a queen has started to lay and sometimes takes place just a day or two after she has started to lay with only eggs being left in the apidea. The usual suspects apply - overheating, overcrowding, too small a space.





when you see a drone comet and actual queen mating taking place in your small swarm which you have seen "hundreds of times" and even the mating sign or drones having their way with her ladyship on a post or tree branch then i might start to believe and give AVM some consideration.  At the moment its total make believe.  Its swarming / absconding behaviour.

----------


## Jon

I saw it once with a supersedure queen from a full colony. That was hardly absconding.

----------


## busybeephilip

> I saw it once with a supersedure queen from a full colony. That was hardly absconding.


Saw exactly what?

A virgin being mated in the swarm?

----------


## mbc

I haven't seen it for a few years  but I've also seen what I assumed was avm, a small bunch of bees tumbling into gorse bush before dispersing and a mated queen a few days later. A lot of noise as I recall,  possibly more than warranted for the small number of bees involved. This was at a time when all my mating nucs were five frame nucs rather than minies too.

----------


## Jon

> Saw exactly what?


an event involving a queen and several hundred bees which has yet to be clarified exactly but which was definitely not simple absconding.
Supersedure queen from a full colony which had made a single cell.

----------


## busybeephilip

> an event involving a queen and several hundred bees which has yet to be clarified exactly but which was definitely not simple absconding.


A swarm not fully established which returned to the hive

The key words being "yet to be clarified"  or perhaps folklore  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


Still totally unconvinced with your various descriptions of AVM

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Mating sign is not that commonly seen though 
Certainly not by me because after many years of beekeeping I saw it for the first time this year
Probably because I was poking around in the hive when I shouldn't have been 😸

----------


## prakel

> I am trying to be objective about what I see and I am not about to stumble into ley line territory any time soon.


Not quite ley line territory but I recently read an interesting article by Allen Latham (well respected keeper in his day) about an experiment he'd carried out with 40 small mating nucs (with cells) to see if he could find a preference for comb orientation in relation to the points of the compass




> I myself have felt that there was a possibility that the bee with her peculiar senses,able to do all her work in what is darkness to us, might respond to the magnetic lines which run around the earth, and that she might build her combs either across these lines or with them..........
> 
> .........A survey of the tables will show no preponderance in favour of any particular point of the compass.
> 
> _Gleanings in Bee Culture Feb 1937_


He did go on to say that he planned to repeat the survey using virgins so that the ceiling of the hives wouldn't have anything to direct the course of the comb. Not had time to track that down yet, if it was ever written up. If nothing else, it made me feel a lot better while driving the bees out of my frameless mating nucs over the last few weeks!

edit: off topic but it's a good myth that's still believed today.

----------


## Jon

It's interesting to hear what Manley has to say about mating flights and swarms.

How many people have ever seen a queen mate in a congregation area? Very few I'd warrant and it does not mean they don't exist. I imagine a few beekeepers have seen a drone comet. I have only seen this in videos. Pete L mentioned that he sees them over some of his apiaries.
I have only seen a queen showing the mating sign twice out of all the queens I have seen returning to apideas.

----------


## prakel

The thing with the DCAs (in my limited experience of one!) is that you can clearly see the drone activity, not just the comet but the Catherine wheel type swirls too. So although the mating may not be clear to the naked eye there is a well researched body of evidence which tells us those drones are chasing queens rather than practicing for an aerobatic display. This is what I find fascinating with the AVM behaviour, the apparent lack of well defined drone activity. This suggests that both queens and drones have different behaviour patterns to the norm as it's understood at this time.

Out of interest, have you ever tried to keep a lineage record of the queens involved to try and ascertain whether it happens within certain families more than others?




> It's interesting to hear what Manley has to say about mating flights and swarms.


In the interest of maintaining an open mind. He also wrote:




> First there is the incidence of Herrod-Hempsall in his two volume book. In this case he not only saw the drone and virgin come together in flight, but spotted where they fell and succedded in killing them with cyanide and taking a photograph of them while in actual sexual connection. This must be almost unique though I dare say that if large commercialbreeders could spare the time to watch long enough, many similar instances would transpire. The other case was related to me in a letter two or three years ago in the following words "...........We saw the virgin pursued by a considerable number of drones, and the race continued swiftly in long zig-zags, a number of drones being 'tailed off' at each sharp turn at a height of about forty feet. These zigzags continued for a considerable time. the height being evenly maintained and the distance from us not appreciably increasing.Suddenly something fell, fairly slowly, from the crowd, and, my father keeping watch on the hive, I ran to the spot to search. Unfortunately I misjudged the distance and went too far, for after a vain search I saw the a queen rising apparently from the path in front of me. I at once looked for the drone and sure enough, found one on the grass verge, just as my father announced the return of the queen to the hive......
> 
> _R.O.B Manley 'Honey Farming' 1946_

----------


## Jon

> Out of interest, have you ever tried to keep a lineage record of the queens involved to try and ascertain whether it happens within certain families more than others?


It happens with all the stock I have but I usually only take grafts from 2 or 3 queens in a season.
The apideas are charged from any available colony at the start of the season.
The behaviour seems to be worker driven but I guess that could be controlled by queen pheromone so it's a chicken and egg situation.

I am refraining from making any claim that this is exclusively a black bee thing but it is interesting that another black bee guy MBC has seen similar stuff.

----------


## prakel

Two current threads on beesource which _may_ touch on AVM.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...th-mated-Queen




> *bobanloubee wrote:* We searched the internet and couldn't find much info about our experience. We found discussions in the UK about so-called "Apiary Vicinity Mating" (AVM) which fits the behavior of our mini swarm to a T, but the theory of what's happening is controversial. Have others observed this behavior?


http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...edure-Theories




> *Verbify wrote:* It was getting dark so we put it in a Nic. Next morning we looked and it mysteriously had no queen. Ended up combining it into one of our hives.

----------


## Jon

Thanks for the links. That sounds very similar to what I have seen and appears to be a mating swarm with a supersedure queen - a carniolan strain in this case.
As I mentioned above, I saw this once with a supersedure but the other cases involve virgins mating from nucs or apideas.

----------


## Adam

The only mating swarm I believe I saw was from a full-sized hive - they flew and then came back the queen was laying shortly afterwards. Can't remember the type of queen - my current ones tend to be quite orangy in colour - although there's quite a variability.

Mini-nucs do abscond AFTER the queen has started to lay - often just a few days and before you get around to putting a queen excluder over the entrance. It does seem to be a heat thing and the mini-nucs don't have to be in full sun either - just a decent warm day. I've never seen it from 3 or 5 frame nucs using std BS frames but have seen it from some small plywood mini-nucs I have.

----------


## Jon

Hi Adam. yes, I am well familiar with absconding from Apideas and it happens sometimes just a couple of days after she starts to lay. Mostly it is caused by over population or over heating but sometimes it just happens! If you set things up right it does not appear to happen in more than one in 20 or 30 apideas. On a really hot day the bets are off!

What I am describing always happens before the queen has started to lay and usually precedes laying by 2 or 3 days.

----------

