# More ... > Exchange and mart >  Authentic carniolan Bee Queens (apis m. carnica) from Slovenia

## beequest

i can't see your advert in the Scottish beekeeper and the SBA encourages local queen rearing so I'm afraid I've removed your advert content

Regards

Nellie.

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## gavin

Mind you, they are a good price!  

Thanks Nellie, quite right.

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## The Drone Ranger

Slovenia is quite local it all depends on your definition of local  :Smile:

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## gavin

Better than NZ and Hawaii then?   :Wink:

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## Mellifera Crofter

How does one become a 'certified' queen breeder?

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## gavin

Maybe they have a scheme in Slovenia, a sort of quality assurance scheme?  Slovenia itself protects the purity of its own race of bees by banning imports of other races and insisting on racial purity for a 30 km radius around its breeding stations.  Then it exports these bees to other countries where the bees may be already mixed up but where at least some beekeepers are trying to keep the native type alive and productive.

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## Jon

> How does one become a 'certified' queen breeder?


Reminds me of those mugs you used to get with the slogan 'You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps'

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## The Drone Ranger

I agree it would be nice to see native bee breeders selling queens 
The Commercial beekeepers import so many thousands of queens every year
A few bought by ordinary hobby beekeepers won't make much impact.
A couple of years after they are imported they somehow become local and OK anyway
On the whole it's best just to use an artificial swarm or a board to raise a new queen each year
There are some who say that's unpredictable but its cheap and keeps a varied gene pool
However if you have say 2 hives and fierce temperament re queening pronto might be necessary
A "certified queen breeder" that would be one who asks £75 for a native queen eeek!!

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## Jon

£75 is crazy. Is that the guy in the South of England who got some queens from Andrew Abrahams in Colonsay.
I sold a few last year for £20 each to a neighbouring BKA which needed local queens to make up nucs for its members.
Our queenrearing group chips in £10 per member and you can have all the cells you want for your apideas and you can set them out in a designated mating site which should have mainly AMM drones.
Going well so far with over 60 queens emerged in Apideas and another 20 or so due to emerge tomorrow.
Queen rearing is definitely more feasible if you can get a group together to share the activities.
Very poor forecast for June so not counting any chickens with this current lot.

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## prakel

There are two who I've come across this spring charging £75, one in Scotland and Paynes. I think more will come out of the woodwork too once they realize the potential market, the thing is most people don't have direct access to breeding groups with true native stock. This has always been one of the criticisms of BIBBA has it not? Their 40+ year existance and still they've made no major inroads into the supply of amm -I don't think it's a valid arguement to say that as an organization supply isn't their responsibility; my point is that they've an awful lot of members some of whom are good beekeepers but it's almost as if there are two tiers of members: those who want amm and those who want to keep their own amm to themselves. This lack of concerted breeding and supply by sale is why the market allows such inflated prices to continue.

Maybe if the Greek bee importers were a little more forceful in their adverts the country would (once again) be flooded with amm of French parentage at much lower prices which might then drive down the prices of native amm.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon £20 is fair considering the work involved

You used to be able to buy a nice crossbred queen in Scottish Beekeeper for £10 -- happy days (John Furzey ?)

The queen rearing group is a good idea it is likely to be harder in some areas

One of my friends has 4 hives and she put them a couple of hundred yards away from her house 

One day around a dozen hives turned up in a field about 40 yards from her house they belong to a big beekeeping operation working the next door farm.

Nice bees of course but the local drone congregation area will be Carnie dominated over the whole farm there will be loads of hives

She won't be buying any queens but if she did it would be a waste of time buying anything fancy

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## Jon

> The queen rearing group is a good idea it is likely to be harder in some areas


Hard enough at the moment with about 70 virgin queens in apideas in this weather.
These have probably got until about 25th June before going stale and the forecast is not good.

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## Neils

I gave up through lack of interest this year and just raised queens for myself. I work close to a guy who bought ligustica in last year and this year is bringing both a couple of buckfast and carnica queens in. Add that to the 138 apiaries within 10 miles of me and what am I supposed to do? At least the Italians are crossing nicely with the general population.

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## prakel

> I work close to a guy who bought ligustica in last year and this year is bringing both a couple of buckfast and carnica queens in.


This is an approach I just can't get my head around. If someone is going to insist on bringing in new stock, so long as it remains legal fair enough, but what advantage do people perceive by introducing so many different strains in such a short time period? Any benefit which could possibly have been derived from the Italian stock is surely going to be lost (if reliant on open matings) before they've even been given chance to prove themselves over a couple of seasons and just as importantly before the keeper has had chance to select the best for further breeding.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hard enough at the moment with about 70 virgin queens in apideas in this weather.
> These have probably got until about 25th June before going stale and the forecast is not good.


How many days after emerging do you usually have ?

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## The Drone Ranger

> This is an approach I just can't get my head around. If someone is going to insist on bringing in new stock, so long as it remains legal fair enough, but what advantage do people perceive by introducing so many different strains in such a short time period? Any benefit which could possibly have been derived from the Italian stock is surely going to be lost (if reliant on open matings) before they've even been given chance to prove themselves over a couple of seasons and just as importantly before the keeper has had chance to select the best for further breeding.


Is this a reaction to worries about in breeding.
Buying in queens is an expensive option

If you have 20+ hives its likely a lot of drones in your local areas could be your own
With 2 hives there is no danger of that
So if you have a few hives only you can happily raise queens from your "best" hive without worry
Those queens will mate with local drones 
With lots of hives you might be safer not to select from your best one only

In Nellie's case with 138 nearby apiaries  a quite narrow selection criteria would be safe enough so although the bees you have will always be hybrid you have a great opportunity to raise gentle bees (easy -ish) and good honey producers (not so easy LOL) 

In the countryside where I live there are hundreds of nearby hives during the rape at the start of the season
They disappear later to the heather etc.
The early and late queen rearing conditions would be different ( I stick to one new queen/hive using boards)
So if someone was in my position they might choose to raise queens after the rape when there are less other hives

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## Jon

> How many days after emerging do you usually have ?


I reckon about 25. The odd one will mate later but some will start laying drone at this point.




> If you have 20+ hives its likely a lot of drones in your local areas could be your own
> With 2 hives there is no danger of that
> So if you have a few hives only you can happily raise queens from your "best" hive without worry
> Those queens will mate with local drones
> With lots of hives you might be safer not to select from your best one only


All good points. I have 7 or 8 queens I would be happy to graft from.
I have about 18 colonies myself but if you add in local guys from the queen rearing group the number rises considerably.
A lot them have very swarmy mongrels. people were losing swarms from mid april.
I have only had one out of 18 make swarm preparations so far.
I reckon it is a cunning plan as they know I am going to be away for 3 weeks in July this year.

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## prakel

> Is this a reaction to worries about in breeding.
> Buying in queens is an expensive option


No, not at all. Quite the opposite actually!

While I accept that imports are a part of life and we need to live with them my own approach to this issue is that local populations need to be stabilized as much as possible and that isn't ever going to be achieved if individuals are introducing three different races in two seasons.

A few years back I had first hand experience of people bringing in bees to a semi-isolated area (Portland) where there had been a relatively small but very stable population of bees. In a matter of two years or so the total hive count on the Isle doubled -partly due to new beekeepers buying nucs and colonies from wherever they could find them and partly due to a very experienced beekeeper from several miles away who took it on himself to decide that he was going to use the Isle to breed amm without any discussion with the existing beekeepers. The outcome was that almost every new queen which mated during latter part of '09 through '11 resulted in highly defencive colonies where previously everything I had on the Isle were a pleasure to handle -very important in a location which has many unofficial footpaths and is open to general 'roaming'.

A couple of the early matings (through supercedure) took me off guard in the sense that I wasn't aware of the issue untill early '10 when I found myself with large colonies which couldn't be opened without passers by (at some distance from the apiaries) being stung, in the end I had to move those colonies to a remote country apiary just so that I could sort them out without fear of causing injury to others.

Maybe this isn't the 'norm' but it is a fact. I've also heard of at least one other local keeper who's only hive in the back garden has caused a lot of trouble with the neighbours due to constant attacks. 

Thankfully, the local word is that one of the new guys (who'd brought in 11 colonies from somewhere) had very high losses last winter; he actually told the local barber that all of his bees had "swarmed during the winter and left behind empty hives" which says a great deal...

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## The Drone Ranger

that's bad news for the Portland beekeepers
I see your difficulty is that where there are fewer beekeepers the whole situation can be destabilised very easily

Everyone finds their situations different and that's the reason why general advice might be OK most of the time but not all of the time.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I reckon about 25. The odd one will mate later but some will start laying drone at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> All good points. I have 7 or 8 queens I would be happy to graft from.
> I have about 18 colonies myself but if you add in local guys from the queen rearing group the number rises considerably.
> A lot them have very swarmy mongrels. people were losing swarms from mid april.
> I have only had one out of 18 make swarm preparations so far.
> I reckon it is a cunning plan as they know I am going to be away for 3 weeks in July this year.


Hope the weather sorts itself out in time to let mating flights take place.
I didn't have any serious swarm preparations till later this year because of the weather. Mid May LOL!
Those swarmy bees would make good queen cell raisers though so they are useful in their own way.
You need a trusty deputy to guard them hives  :Smile:

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## prakel

> that's bad news for the Portland beekeepers
> I see your difficulty is that where there are fewer beekeepers the whole situation can be destabilised very easily


Yes, that's exactly how I see it, thoughtless introduction can create total havoc in a small population and I've had the excessive stings to bear that out! Certainly my inland apiaries where there are obviously far more beekeepers/colonies remain quite stable from generation to generation but things do change -as demonstrated by half a dozen Carnica type swarms occupying bait hives this last Spring instead of the more common orange-band mongrels of the previous decade during which I've been in this area. 




> Everyone finds their situations different and that's the reason why general advice might be OK most of the time but not all of the time.


Again, wise words. It's so easy to follow the masses without actually ever questioning _why_ we're doing something the way we are.

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## Jon

The key thing is stability of local populations.
Putting a load of Buckfast or Carnica colonies into an AMM or stable mongrel area is irresponsible and the same thing would be true introducing AMM to most parts of SE England. All you are doing is stirring up the gene pool with hybrids and that is in no-ones interest.
Within a year the local beekeepers are going to have problems due to the crosses.

A lot of the new beekeepers are not even aware that there are different subspecies of bee and the consequences of crosses between them.

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## beequest

Hello again. 

[links and links to photos with links on them deleted.  Please read our policy here: http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...m-your-sponsor You advert for queens is unlikely to be accepted for the Scottish Beekeeper too.]

I do not support hybrides neither. But I am afraid that nothing can be done against importing queens. No one can control beekeepers. So if there is import it is better to be controlled and legal. This way at least you know what you'll get...

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## Jon

> I do not support hybrides neither. But I am afraid that nothing can be done against importing queens. No one can control beekeepers. So if there is import it is better to be controlled and legal. This way at least you know what you'll get...


There is plenty which can be done - educating beekeepers to raise their own local queens for a start.

What you get appears to be a bee which is docile but excessively swarmy and produces aggressive granddaughters.
Better to work with what you have locally.

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## gavin

> I do not support hybrides neither. But I am afraid that nothing can be done against importing queens. No one can control beekeepers. So if there is import it is better to be controlled and legal. This way at least you know what you'll get...


That is a pretty silly statement given that in your country there *are* laws to prevent importing queens of non-carniolan races and beekeepers *are* controlled.

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## The Drone Ranger

Here's an interesting link about breeding Slovenian Carniolans

http://www.kranjska-cebela.si/En/kranjska_cebela.php

I think it illustrates how committed they are, and how far the UK would have to change before something similar could be done.

This is what makes the breed so attractive to commercial operations

Oil seed rape subsidy is a problem, in that it is a honey producing crop which encourages bee movements in the main mating season (unlike heather)

If it was a pollination contract operation then the type of bee would be likely be local hybrid other than  poly tunnel soft fruit which utilises bumble bees (imported)

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.honeyua.com/korea/index.p...mid=31&lang=en

This is the Ukraine
Similar in some aspects that the breeding program is co-ordinated

On the whole it might be better for funding to be allocated in that direction than CCD bee brains etc

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## Bridget

Can anyone point me to any pictures and explanation of different bees.  I'm a bit confused by Carniolian, buck fast, AMM? Etc

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## prakel

> Can anyone point me to any pictures and explanation of different bees.  I'm a bit confused by Carniolian, buck fast, AMM? Etc


Hi Bridget, I'm sure various books and the highly 'dependable' wiki will be offered up as suitable but you may also find it worth looking at the website of Russell Apiaries (US). They have some good information + clear photos of different races as well as their many 'own brand' hybrids. For those into AMM there's also a couple great posts by Dr. Russell himself describing the way that the original European stock has evolved as ferals across the US and his own plans for "locating and promoting genetic pockets" of amm across the country on their inhouse forum. 

Not advertizing as it obviously isn't possible to import from the States.

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## The Drone Ranger

It's a bit of a nuisance Bridget I don't know of a really good one

If you find one let me know  :Smile: 

Try Glenn Apiaries .com in google quite an interesting site with a few pics of various breeds

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## Neils

You can link here. There's a difference between linking to somewhere to answer a question like Bridget's or the bee suit thread for that matter and what our Slovakian friend is trying to do in promoting his own business. The rule there is simple, take out an advert in the Scottish Beekeeper first.

 While I think some of the info on Wikipedia is a bit suspect in this area they do have some reasonable information on most of the main subspecies with photos which helps a lot.

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## Rosie

There's quite a good explanation about the various races of bees on the BIBBA web site:

http://www.bibba.com/origins_milner.php

Although there are no pictures.

Rosie

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## Jon

> This has always been one of the criticisms of BIBBA has it not? Their 40+ year existance and still they've made no major inroads into the supply of amm -I don't think it's a valid arguement to say that as an organization supply isn't their responsibility; my point is that they've an awful lot of members some of whom are good beekeepers but it's almost as if there are two tiers of members: those who want amm and those who want to keep their own amm to themselves.


I believe Bibba has plans afoot to get breeder queens out to some of the local breeding groups. There was some discussion of this, admittedly mostly in the bar, at the Scottish Centenary event.
I suggested that people supplying queens could pass on the queens they grafted from in the previous season.
I have a queen I grafted from all summer and I have load of nucs and requeened colonies headed by her daughters.
That rules her out for me as a breeder next year but a queen like this with proven offspring would be very useful to another queen rearer outside my local area.

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## prakel

This could be an interesting development -so long as they've spent all of those preceeding years improving their stock to the point that it's now of a high quality and actually worth breeding from rather than just 'being' amm. I'm sure that that is the case but it's hard to tell without having actually seen what their breeding programme has so far achieved.

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## Jon

The best queen to graft from has got to be one of the same race you work with which has already produced dozens of daughters which head docile and productive colonies.
This is likely to be a queen in her 3rd season.
I grafted from at least 7 or 8 queens this year but nearly all the grafts for the queen rearing group came from a single queen.
I had 6 apideas at the association apiary and I got 9 queens from them which were mostly used to requeen colonies at the apiary.
A lot of them are still nuc sized but so far so good with regard to temperament and character.

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## theBeeMan

> i can't see your advert in the Scottish beekeeper and the SBA encourages local queen rearing so I'm afraid I've removed your advert content
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nellie.


I can assure you the SBA does not encourage local queen rearing! I have asked on a few occations to advertise in the SBA mag and have been turned down saying they do not want to advertise my Queens that are bred and mated here in Scotland not sure why

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## prakel

> I can assure you the SBA does not encourage local queen rearing! I have asked on a few occations to advertise in the SBA mag and have been turned down saying they do not want to advertise my Queens that are bred and mated here in Scotland not sure why


Missed this post initially.

Seems a rather strange approach to take regarding a local producer.

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## gavin

The person who organises the advertising for the magazine is a very strong advocate of the SBA's policy of only accepting advertising for bees that are understood to be locally bred stock, honestly presented.  I'm sure that if this vendor was able to make a convincing case that his bees were in that category, his advertising revenue would be gratefully received.

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## Black Comb

I would think that if anyone told porkie pies in their ad. they would be liable to prosecution by trading standards.
What do you need to do convince the decision maker?

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## Jon

We had a local dealer who advertised 'Irish Carnica - for easy handling' in one of the bee publications.
Presumably Irish according to the Jackie Charlton criteria unless Ireland has drifted about 1000 miles to the east.

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## gavin

I was thinking about those adverts, Bee Craft if I remember right.  They have a statement in the latest issue which suggests that they are tightening up and aligning with BBKA policy.  

As for satisfying the Scottish Beekeeper advertising monitor, no idea.  But it sounds as if there was a discussion between TBM and the SB gatekeeper, and she wasn't satisfied.

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