# General beekeeping > Alternative beekeeping >  Top bar hives

## Mellifera Crofter

> Top Bar hives are fine:
> IF
> 1. You ignore the rubbish posted by the Natural Beekeepers of this world: mostly they live in places where any fool can overwinter bees in a hive that has holes in it and expect them to survive.  I did my research and amended the designs. and insulated.
> 2. You don't want much honey.
> 3. You like lots of hard work to get a little honey.
> 
> I am converting to Langstroth


I've moved your quote here to 'altnerantive beekeeping', Madasafish, away form Maud bees.

I've often heard those last two criticisms about TBHs, but I don't understand why they should either produce less honey or be more labour-intensive.  Can you, or somebody else, please explain (before I turn a stack of wood I have waiting into two TBHs).

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> I've moved your quote here to 'altnerantive beekeeping', Madasafish, away form Maud bees.
> 
> I've often heard those last two criticisms about TBHs, but I don't understand why they should either produce less honey or be more labour-intensive.  Can you, or somebody else, please explain (before I turn a stack of wood I have waiting into two TBHs).
> 
> Kitta


I have seen plans where the top bars had a wire coathanger loop to encourage the bees to build a comb supported all the way round 
The rest of the hive seemed to just be the usual Abbe Warre style 
Perhaps the idea is to stop the boxes being joined together?

I have the plans for a Long Deep Hive somewhere but never got round to attempting one because the cutting needs to be pretty accurate and the ply sheets are pretty big and heavy so the hive would be the same
I could dig them out for you if thats the type of thing you have in mind

I haven't been exactly sold on ply as a hive material certainly the DIY stuff usually warps and doesn't last

What kind of wood have you been stacking Kitta ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...I have the plans for a Long Deep Hive ...
> I could dig them out for you if thats the type of thing you have in mind
> ...
> What kind of wood have you been stacking Kitta ?


No, DR, I was thinking of the usual trough-like hive with sloping sides.

I bought a lot of sawn Scottish larch off-cuts from a timber merchant. If I'm not making a trough-like TBH, then maybe a Warrè - of both.
Kitta

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## Jon

I think a warré is a better shape for the bees than the KTBH.
Bees seem to prefer working up or down rather than horizontally, thus the great attraction of chimneys.

That post hoc explanation about bees living naturally in hollow logs; it would be interesting to hear from everyone who has ever come across a colony in the UK living in a fallen horizontal log.

According to Seeley, bees prefer to choose a natural nest site about 15 to 20 feet off the ground.
Did I just allude to chimneys again!

The lack of honey is possibly more to do with management style as opposed to hive shape.
ie, a colony which swarms several times will be unlikely to produce honey, and leaving the bees to swarm seems to go with the TBH warre philosopy for a lot of beekeepers.
A colony riddled with mites, if it survives at all, will not be producing a honey surplus.
Again, lack of effective treatment for varroa is a management issue rather than a fault of the hive itself.

It is quite clear from reading biobees that it is a real struggle for many just to keep the bees alive in a TBH due to the baggage associated with management.
Honey is pretty much a sideshow in this sense as the colony rarely gets to the strength where it can store much of a surplus.

The US top bar beekeepers are probably the ones to listen to as they seem to run them like beehives without as much of an anti everything else agenda.

They probably work a lot better in Devon than they do in Scotland and better still in Kenya.

Be interesting to hear from madasafish why his produce little honey as I think he looks after his TBHs in a sensible fashion.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... The lack of honey is possibly more to do with management style as opposed to hive shape. ...
> 
> They probably work a lot better in Devon than they do in Scotland and better still in Kenya.
> 
> Be interesting to hear from madasafish why his produce little honey as I think he looks after his TBHs in a sensible fashion.


Thanks Jon - I definitely intend to manage my (still-to-be-made) TBH: check for queen cells, treat against varroa - all of that.  So, the only reason I can think of for reduced honey production might be because you cannot return drawn combs to the hive.  As for extra labour: I can't think of a reason.

You're right: I am a bit worried that a TBH might not be so suitable for Scotland.  Another question for Madasafish: how did he insulate the sloping walls?

I'm drawn to a TBH for my own convenience: not having to lift boxes; and for the bees' sake: I hope, fewer squashed bees.  I don't know if it works like that. 

Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I haven't been exactly sold on ply as a hive material certainly the DIY stuff usually warps and doesn't last  ...


I meant to reply to that, DR.  I agree.  I'm not keen on plywood and don't intend to use it for an all-year hive.  I have however made three nucleus boxes using ply and I've already cut some ply for three more - and that despite Grizzly having told me not to waste my time with inferior material.  Maybe I'll have some of that larch left over to make a nucleus box to be proud of.
Kitta

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## Jon

> I'm drawn to a TBH for my own convenience: not having to lift boxes; and for the bees' sake: I hope, fewer squashed bees. I don't know if it works like that.


Squashing or not squashing bees is little to do with hive type and mainly to do with dexterity and handling skills.
If you are clumsy you will squash bees pushing two bars together in a TBH same as you would squash them in a framed hive.
There are some truly awful handlers in TBH videos on youtube, same as you get awful bee handlers with any hive type.
Leather gloves are the single worst culprit in winding up bees and ending up with squashed bees.

I have only worked at a TBH a handful of times and I don't see any difference at all re. squashing bees.
The combs in the TBH are just as easy to handle as framed combs as long as you do not try and hold a freshly drawn comb horizontally.
Once they have darkened they are pretty tough.

The main advantage is low cost if you build it yourself from scrap wood. The other stuff about bees being 'happier' etc is not backed up by any evidence. There are an awful lot of posts about swarms and packages absconding from TBHs on biobees which seems odd if they are the preferred choice of the bee.

I am still tempted to build one myself but I have been saying that for years and have never got around to it.

You don't have to lift supers off a TBH (especially if there is no honey!) but if you have to move it quickly for some reason, unacceptable aggression perhaps, it will be far harder to move than a national or a smith hive. Likely a job for a trailer.

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## The Drone Ranger

When you do a bit of laminate flooring there are plastic wedges which are spacers 
They are very handy if you put one at each corner and lift the top box back onto them you get a a chance to get all the bees out of the way as you gradually lower the box by withdrawing the wedges (they are fairly cheap)

I wonder if I could make a couple of sloping polystyrene inserts for a standard broodbox to give it a try
The lovely smell of new cedar brood boxes irresistible really  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

Kitta - one thing to be aware of in my opinion -the long design of a TBH isn't so good for the avoidance of isolation starvation.  I guess you could incorporate design elements to allow for an eke and fondant feeding in midwinter but the standard design is a killer of bees in our climate in my opinion.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Jon, DR and Drumgerry.  

I'm a very careful handler of bees, Jon.  The problem is usually when putting the boxes together - particularly the poly ones with their wider side walls.  I like your idea of using wedges, DR.  I'll try that.

Yes Jon, I agree - moving a TBH will be difficult, but I don't have any near neighbours so angry bees might not be such a problem.  Moving them because they're robbed will be difficult.

Your post reminds me, Drumgerry, that there are quite a few design problems with a TBH that I still need to think about.  I usually overwinter my bees with transparent crown boards with five feeding holes (four covered, and one used for candy) so that I can see where my bees are and move the candy to a new feeding hole if necessary.  With TBHs the bars are wide and pushed together, so there are no feeding holes above the bees.  I think I'll use the usual widths (28mm) and use transparent 7mm spacers or just a transparent crown board as in box hives with space for an eke above.

Another problem that's kept me thinking is the side wall insulation.  But is that really a problem if I use an eke with insulation?  Bees overwinter in single wooden brood boxes with insulation above their heads - so why not a wooden TBH?

Kitta

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## Jon

> Thanks Jon, DR and Drumgerry.  
> I'm a very careful handler of bees, Jon.  The problem is usually when putting the boxes together - particularly the poly ones with their wider side walls.


Some people put on the super at an angle to the brood box and then rotate it around slowly to sit properly on the box below.
personally, I find that will always catch a few bees.
I prefer to line up the super with the brood box at the front edge and drop it back very slowly while using the smoker to clear the brood box edges of bees.
DR's wedges would help here as a heavy super can be tricky enough to drop down slowly holding it with one arm.

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## madasafish

> I've moved your quote here to 'altnerantive beekeeping', Madasafish, away form Maud bees.
> 
> I've often heard those last two criticisms about TBHs, but I don't understand why they should either produce less honey or be more labour-intensive.  Can you, or somebody else, please explain (before I turn a stack of wood I have waiting into two TBHs).
> 
> Kitta


When you think about bees in their natural habitat - holes in trees or rocks - they grow vertically , expanding sideways to a limited amount.

To get a sideways hive to expand - given that bar depth is finite at around 300mm - you really have to manipulate the brood nest and spread it otherwise they tend to get crowded or honey bound and swarm.
Then the heat is all at the top of the bars and if you have an OMF and NO bottom to the hive, it will be pretty cold at times in the lower part of the hives and the bees will not extend downwards - except in really warm weather.  And the designs as shown have top bars resting on a single side wall exposed to the outside so warm air can escape easily.

I have amended the design to have :
1. a bottom board under the OMF which is removable but stays in place ALL year (my tests vs no board were conclusively in favour of a board) with limited = less than 10 mm = gap between hive and board for air intake. Much more and the bees find it cold at the bottom.

2. A roof which overlaps the top bars by at least 200mm so the bar/wall  interface is entirely shielded from wind and rain. (we get driving horizontal 50mph winds with rain in winter) . This prevents - or reduces air and warmth losses.

3. At least 30mm insulation directly on top of the top bars to reduce heat losses through the bars and the same again within the roof .
Insulation on the side walls of 30mm . (I use aluminium foil based Celotex . Kingspan or Reticel or similar is fine. I buy mine used to save money.)

4.  A greater depth of wood below the OMF and before the floor to reduce draughts from the gaps around the bottom.

See http://www.flickr.com/photos/6752908...7635170002333/

Hinged roof with the overlap  in the sidewalls of the roof.

People who have tried to winter TBHs round here - Staffordshire Moorlands  - 500 feet above see level - on edge of the Peak District - without bottom boards have failed dismally to get colonies to survive.

Despite my insulation etc, pick up in spring is far slower than Nationals. (uninsulated!)

Honey yields - in a bad year the bees need all their stores to survive winter here. In a good year 10kgs of honey per hive is possible.

The problem is the design is very heat inefficient and the manipulation of the brood nest to speed up spring build up - is a pia as you only know where the bees are upon opening - although feeling the top bars can guide you - warmer above the brood nest.

Manipulating a framed vertical hive is much easier.

I have two warres and they survive winter well.. but they are vertical..

Our temperature ranges are: summer 18 to 30C.. Average under 25C

Winter: 1C to -18C . Last three years have seen -16C or lower for up to a week.
(Badly installed condensing boilers have frozen )

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kitta

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...tNumber=453949
453949_R_Z001.jpeg

£4.99 for 22
My ones all black from a few years ago it might be best to nip into the DIY and have a look to see if they are ok for the job

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... To get a sideways hive to expand - given that bar depth is finite at around 300mm - you really have to manipulate the brood nest  ...
> 
> The problem is the design is very heat inefficient and the manipulation of the brood nest to speed up spring build up - is a pia as you only know where the bees are upon opening - although feeling the top bars can guide you - warmer above the brood nest.
> 
> Manipulating a framed vertical hive is much easier.
> 
> ...


Thanks for an interesting reply, Mike, and for the link to your hives.

So is it this extra manipulation of the brood area that makes a TBH more labour-intensive?

If I do make a hive, I will also use a deep roof like you have done and, as I've already mentioned to Drumgerry, an eke with top insulation.  I will also figure out a way to provide food above the cluster, and to see the bees from above.

If the hive has top insulation, and the floor is covered up, and the bees have food above the cluster, then I can't see why they should fare worse than bees in a wooden National with top insulation - but I take your word for it.

I'll let you know if I've made the hive.

Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks for the link, DR.  I think I've seen wedges in Travis Perkins in Turriff - or I'll just cut a few.  I have a band-saw - so that's easy.
Kitta

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## drumgerry

Not trying to dishearten you Kitta or be really negative but wouldn't it be as well just to have the bees in an ordinary hive if you're going to have to go to the trouble of all these design modifications?  Isn't the point that they're meant to be low tech and easy to build?  However you decide to proceed though I wish you well.

Oh and has anyone mentioned cross-combing?  That was one of the things that killed TBHs for me.  I practically had to pull the brood nest apart any time I wanted to get a look at it.  Not good for the bees and not good for my blood pressure!

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## Mellifera Crofter

I'll try and keep it low-tech, Drumgerry.  I don't think giving the hive an overhanging roof, or spacing the top bars, will add complications ...  Or perhaps it will.  The big roof might be heavy.  I'll think about it.  I'm forever turning designs around in my head - not so much in practice.
Kitta

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## madasafish

I've only had one cross combing in 4 years.
I use triangular guides.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/6752908...7636895293793/

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## Mellifera Crofter

I forgot about cross-combing - a frequent complaint.  You've done well though, MF.  I'll remember about the triangular guides.
Kitta
PS - except that Drumgerry mentioned it ...

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## The Drone Ranger

I think it's fair to say though that big hives like the Glen hive needed brood spreading an other manipulations as well and they were standard size frames.
I haven't used one but apparently despite all the frames the bees would confine themselves to the centre and sometimes swarm without even using the outside frames
The way they got round that was by spreading the brood nest which is a skill in itself because if you get it wrong then the bees make queen cells and swarm anyway  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I think it's fair to say though that big hives like the Glen hive needed brood spreading  ...  which is a skill in itself  ...


Ted Hooper describes brood spreading on pp107-108. I've never done that. All I do is to move a drawn comb to the side of the brood nest (in Nationals).
Kitta

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## wee willy

My old mate did this year on year, his swarm control consisted of knocking Queen cells down.
Maybe it was the times, the local mongrels at the time but he kept his Queens longer than me , he always had a good harvest ,plus he had very few swarms .
All contra to the modern take on things!
VM 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kitta

When I am trying something new out I am never sure how it will go
bees vary a lot in how they behave and local conditions as you know
When you hear about Glenn hives etc what you seldom know much about is the bees they were using
I think a lot of the time they were Italian X everything else and inclined to big colonies

If I was lucky enough to have some wood for building a top bar hive I might go for a small box vertical type like Warre
The Long Deep Hive has it's supporters and they become expert in a different beekeeping method
Possibly fans may have started with co-operative bees and the right location
Wee Willy is saying he suspects this matters quite a bit (in the previous post)
The advantage of a long deep hive though is no lifting and easy access to the broodnest
Checking for queen cells is tricky enough at the best of times. 
I can see that is easy on the Long Deep type 
Possibly you split the warre boxes and just look along the bottom for cells ? 
Plenty time to decide which though - the whole Winter  :Smile:

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## Jon

Getting off topic now (what a surprise) but removing an outer frame and inserting a new frame in the centre of the brood nest, or a bar for that matter in a TBH, will expand the brood nest and get you some nice new comb to boot.
As always timing is important so the brood doesn't get chilled.
I would not do it just before  a cold spell especially early in the season before a colony is near full strength.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon
That's an advantage for top bar then because if you stick an extra frame with foundation in the centre of a Smith hive you end up with two halves of a broodnest and often they get the notion to swarm

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## Jon

I do it with foundationless frames.
There are a couple of threads on the site somewhere.
They can draw wax from scratch, no foundation, and have it laid up with eggs within 48 hours.
I do this to get drone comb but depending upon the time of the year and the state of the colony they will happily draw worker comb.

comb-fishing line.jpg

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## madasafish

One other pia with TBHs is closing the hive up. If you are trying to replace topbars together and your bees are agitated or anything but calm, it can be difficult to do it without squishing a few (lot) of bees. There are ways of getting round it - mainly shoving a piece of cardboard in the gap between bars to push bees away, (the card should be about 3/4 of a beespace thick )and then withdrawing the card and closing the bars together.

Aggressive bees dislike it intensely.:-(

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon
 I did a few fishing line ones this year using (60lb shock leader for shore casting)
They did draw drone comb but they did it fast and made a good job
I think wee willy might have more info on the brood spreading but as I understand it the theory is to keep moving the frames with the youngest brood and larva to the centre of the broodnest and trying to get a rugby ball shaped nest. Drawn combs can be placed beside the young larva and the queen moves on to them quickly laying them up. 
I don't know if that is needed with Long Deep Hives or not though 

 Hi madasafish do you do any spreading of the brood in the top bar hive ?

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## Jon

If you take a frame from the outside of the brood nest with a tiny amount of brood on it and move it to the middle of the nest they will expand the patch of brood pretty quickly towards the outside of the frame.
30lb monofilament line is what I have been using. Given that Top bar hive natural comb is not strengthened at all, I guess that is sufficient.
Better than spreading the brood to accelerate build up is to remove a frame of small larvae and replace it with a frame of sealed brood about to hatch. (from another colony) No chance of chilling that way.

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## The Drone Ranger

The 60lb was just for thickness really not strength 
I recommend "Greased Weasle" shock leader 
(Fat and grippy it wont pull through the comb under stress)
That's my advertising slogan  :Smile: 

On the whole I think the bees prefer a broodnest which is like a rugby ball pointy end downwards and that's why on those big brutes like the Glenn they had to mess around reshaping it.

Do you use the brood adding/shifting technique on your cell raisers etc Jon

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## Jon

It's different with the cell raisers as you just keep moving all the brood to the top box above the excluder and moving the drawn comb down to the bottom box below the excluder.

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## madasafish

> Hi madasafish do you do any spreading of the brood in the top bar hive ?



Yes: the main way to get them to expand quickly.. Can be a pia early in season due to closing bars - see above.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks for the info madasafish there seems to be a lot more pages around on how to build one than how to use it afterwards  :Smile:

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## madasafish

> Thanks for the info madasafish there seems to be a lot more pages around on how to build one than how to use it afterwards



Precisley.

I think the UK idea was:
build one and then capitalise on it by writing a book and then find about how to run it afterwards.

Bourne out by original advice not to use a bottom board.. and then subsequently rescinded when colonies die in winter.... 

Unimpressed.

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## prakel

> That post hoc explanation about bees living naturally in hollow logs; it would be interesting to hear from everyone who has ever come across a colony in the UK living in a fallen horizontal log.


Been watching this one, in Dorset, all year:

SAM_1537.jpgSAM_1639.jpgSAM_1513.jpgSAM_2318.jpgSAM_2320.jpg

The latter two photo's show a). the nest area cut down to an approximately 18" long length of log -with a rather ineffectual 'cover' as protection from the rain and b). a part of the cut down log, still containing comb (and acting as a wasp's paradise) thrown to the side. None of which is anything to do with me, someone else must have decided to 'have a go'.

Pure speculation here; I think that quite possibly there had been a nest in the tree at an earlier date which had died out prior to the felling after which a swarm probably homed in on the comb remnants. What ever, the current colony has appeared to be doing very well through the summer.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Prakel
Presumably the bees were living in the tree when it was vertical 
Can anything be salvaged now ?

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## prakel

> Hi Prakel
> Presumably the bees were living in the tree when it was vertical ?


I think that there had been a colony in the tree but that it had died out (the entrance would have been very close to the saw cut and the fallen tree was left right at the side of a busy public footpath, two aspects which would probably have demanded removal at the time of felling). The current bees were then, I think, drawn to the log by the old comb etc. I can't be totally certain but I think that they quite possibly spent last winter in that log -that, or it was an extremely early swarm this year, something which I doubt based on what I saw of the local build up after last winter.

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## The Drone Ranger

They could be a very hardy strain 
you might get a few grafts from them next year  :Smile:

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## prakel

> They could be a very hardy strain 
> you might get a few grafts from them next year


Not so sure now that some chainsaw-happy native has dismantled their home, and as far as I can tell, is planning to now leave them with a dubious roof and hardly anything by way of stores (their comb doesn't stretch to the top of the log which they now call home

View into top of 'log'
SAM_2322.jpg

View of underside of 'log'
SAM_2325.jpg

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## susbees

> Precisley.
> 
> I think the UK idea was:
> build one and then capitalise on it by writing a book and then find about how to run it afterwards.
> 
> Bourne out by original advice not to use a bottom board.. and then subsequently rescinded when colonies die in winter.... 
> 
> Unimpressed.


Indeed so. We ran up to six plus two tbh nucs for three years. One four footer lives in the beeshed, the other five are for sale....

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## lindsay s

Earlier this week a lot of news sites covered swarms in the cities and it was even picked up by Radio 2. Here are some of the headlines. 
Middle class urban beekeepers blamed for town centre swarms. Expert says new beekeepers don't know how to manage hives effectively, causing more swarms in cities 
Yes, bad beekeeping is to blame for unwanted urban swarms 
Urban beekeepers behind rise in city bee swarming  theres a nice clip at the end of this link. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-05-13/u...-bee-swarming/
The Jeremy Vine show Menace of Amateur Beekeepers and he also called them amateur hipsters 
Before we all head to our bunkers (or bait hives) it is swarming season and it was a slow news week. The usual guff was spouted by the newspapers but I do think there is some truth in the matter. While Im hoping all the trendys will get bored and move on Monty Don has just gone and encouraged the next lot of bee huggers to start off with top bar hives. Things started nicely with bee friendly plants but when he moved on to top bar hives I thought Monty how could you do that. You dont know half the trouble youll be causing! Its time to head back to the bunker.     http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...015-episode-10   12:40

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## madasafish

I've still got my TBHs and lang jumbos. Guess which ones are healthier and stronger? Not the TBHs..

I will use them to provide frames for queen rearing.

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## busybeephilip

> Urban beekeepers behind rise in city bee swarming....... Menace of Amateur Beekeepers ......


This is unfortunate but to some extent true.  In Ireland the FIBKA beginners course/exam concentrates too much on text book beekeeping and not enough actual useful beekeeping practice, the result being that beginners often dont know how to deal with a hive that is trying to swarm.  Most beginners cant even find a queen let alone clip and mark her.  After taking the beginners course a percentage of beginners would join a club for a year then never be seen again.  Difficult issues to address but the consequences of this could be a council ban on keeping bees within residential areas as is practiced in the USA.

Many beekeepers are happy to offer their services to collect and remove swarms so showing a level of responsibility, others refuse.  Each year, swarms in inaccessible places causing concern to the public is becoming more frequent, and complaints to councils are on the rise.  Pest controllers, wary of court action due to applying poison to which other bees could access,  often refuse to destroy bees even after a beekeeper has failed to remove a swarm.

Its only a matter of time before bees are banned from towns.

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## madasafish

*Its only a matter of time before bees are banned from towns.*

So tree bumbles will be banned (75% of all calls I get as a swarm collector are tree bumbles).?  Nasty and aggressive when nests are disturbed by vibrations..  

I will be interested to see how that works..:-)

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## busybeephilip

> So tree bumbles will be banned (75% of all calls I get as a swarm collector are tree bumbles).?  Nasty and aggressive when nests are disturbed by vibrations..


I think the point being made is that novice beekeepers can act irresponsible through ignorance of controlling their bees in the swarming season.  There is a big difference in perception between a bumble bee or wasp nest being discovered than having a swarm of bees come down your chimney and fill your front living room or a bedroom and your local beekeeper or pest controller refusing to help.   As a beekeeper you might think nothing of this but to a member of the general public it causes extreme anxiety to be suddenly confronted with thousands of potentially stinging insects which will often make it to the news column of the local rag.   

Dont forget, in the mind of the public,  its the nearest beekeeper that gets the blame whether they are his bees or not.

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## Jon

The problem is that beekeepers are not receiving enough practical training before taking bees home.
We are trying to address this locally via beekeeping courses and a summer programme.
Madasafish, I don't think tree bumbles have made it over to Ireland yet.

http://www.bwars.com/index.php?q=con...-hypnorum-2014

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## Adam

> I've still got my TBHs and lang jumbos. Guess which ones are healthier and stronger? Not the TBHs..
> 
> I will use them to provide frames for queen rearing.


Why do you think the bees in the TBH's are not so healthy or strong?

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## Adam

[QUOTE=Jon;30177
Madasafish, I don't think tree bumbles have made it over to Ireland yet.

[/QUOTE]

I assume they will. They have traveled across the mainland rather quickly and therefore must be doing well. Now if they consume the same foods as our native bumblebees; could we conclude that neonics - which will be common to both species' food intake - are not to blame for the demise of bumblebees? (I have no view or evidence either way - just point it out for interest). As the tree bumblbee nests above ground (should be called the tit-box bumblebee or I-have-bees-in-my-roof-get-them-out bumblebee) they don't get in the way of our native ground-nesters so the competition is mainly food I assume rather than nest-sites?

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## madasafish

It's basically because the design is heat inefficient. And whereas  in a lang jumbo, thr bees can concentrate in two seams - and there are a lot in two seams, in a TBH they would be on 5-6 combs. So a less dense cluster .. Coupled with heat losses through top bars (although I insulate a LOT)

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## Neils

I'm actually sorry to hear that you're going to stop using tbh, I get why, but I've always appreciated your lack of "woo" that frequently accompanies keeping bees in them.

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## Emma

I was sorry to hear it, too. I've swithered over trying a (managed) tbh but so far I'm just experimenting with a double-length National brood box. Really liking it so far - my first spring with it, currently on about 10 frames of brood. They came through the winter nicely but I would like to figure how to insulate it better. How do you insulate yours?

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## chris

@ MAAF
I remember you writing that you were putting frames to replace the top bars in your Warré(s). So, have you totally abandoned them now? I find the Warré good for heat retention. Or are you referring only to your horizontal tbh?

I read a lot that top bar hives give us calm bees that are much  less agressive because of less tinkering with the hive. I have found (though with only one Warré I can't extrapolate) that because the bees are rarely visited, when they are they seem to resent it, and treat me much more badly then my Dadant bees .

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## Jon

The oft repeated claim that keeping bees in a tip bar hive make them calmer than bees in a hive with frames is one of the more ridiculous claims you hear from the devotees.
The variables which control aggression are:
-genetics of the queen
-weather
-clumsiness of the beekeeper
-availability of forage
-pests and predators annoying the hive (including teenage homo sapiens with drink taken)

Ley lines and hive shape and top bars do not enter the equation.

Chris, you might just have bees which have become a bit aggressive in the Warré. When they requeen themselves naturally you are always taking pot luck.

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## Adam

Emma, I tried a 16 frame national and gave up - in fact I made two and a super. Bees didn't expand across the frames as I would have hoped so they didn't use the space well. The two boxes were cut down to standard Nationals after a couple of years. And as you point out, insulation will always be difficult for such a shape.  I hope your experiment works better!

Forever the fiddler, I have a 8 frame national design - one colony is currently with 3 brood boxes and 4 (full) supers on top, needing more. It's getting very tall! The 8 frame boxes are good for overwintering a decent nuc, but like a Warre, too small for a decent colony. The problem with a Warre as I see it, is that you have to lift the whole lot up to put another box at the bottom which seems unnecessary work.

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## prakel

> The oft repeated claim that keeping bees in a tip bar hive make them calmer than bees in a hive with frames is one of the more ridiculous claims you hear from the devotees.


I'm not entirely certain that it's quite so cut and dried.

Of course, it's hard to offer definite opinions when we de-select the angry ones as soon as we can but I do have a feeling that natural comb has some positive effect on temperament. Either way, there won't be 100% 'rule' because genetics and other factors will continue to play their part.

Not to be confused with another aspect of horizontal topbar hives -the fact that the brood nest is sealed until you remove individual bars (a little like using a cover-cloth on a vertical hive) but that of course has nothing to do with bee behaviour and everything to do with an in-built control system. 

Oddly, I actually found myself in disagreement with some natural types a little while ago with regards to this (mind, I think the one feels like he's got to disagree with anything I say on principle  :Smile: ).

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## Jon

I have helped a top bar keeper with crabby bees in her TBH and re. natural comb I am a big fan and you can have that in any shape of container.
I have several natural combs in most of my national brood boxes now and this comb is often a mix of cell sizes.

The thing with the brood nest being sealed in a TBH is often negated by cross combing where the comb has to be ripped apart on inspection because it crosses several bars.
Now that is a good way to wind up bees - tear the combs apart!
You only have to read biobees to see how this is a recurring problem.

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## prakel

> I have helped a top bar keeper with crabby bees in her TBH and re. natural comb I am a big fan and you can have that in any shape of container.


Hence my comments along the lines that it might not be a clear cut thing.




> I have several natural combs in most of my national brood boxes now and this comb is often a mix of cell sizes.
> 
> The thing with the brood nest being sealed in a TBH is often negated by cross combing where the comb has to be ripped apart on inspection because it crosses several bars.
> Now that is a good way to wind up bees - tear the combs apart!
> You only have to read biobees to see how this is a recurring problem.


Until a couple of weeks ago we didn't have a single comb built on foundation as it had all been rotated out at some point over the last eight or nine years that we've not been buying foundation. Now, we've got our hands on a Lithuanian foundation mould -and it's a real pleasure to see the combs being drawn. We'll still have a fair percentage of natural comb drawn this year simply because the mould came too late for us to be able to get on top of the situation -but hopefully we'll have a nice stock of foundation by next Spring.

As for cross combing that's just bad (or lack of) management: seems to me that when Wyatt Mangum can claim not to have any such issue (he uses foundation starters) and when I've not found an issue with my dadants ran totally on natural comb (even when starting boxes off with nothing but correx 'guides') the only answer can be that there are a lot of people who don't know the best way to do it.

I actually feel that the majority of people would be better learning to read a colony in a conventional hive before getting into the rather more advanced world of topbar hives (there, I've said it). I am of course referring to using the hives as a tool to manage the bees; no leave alone nonsense here.

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## Emma

:-)  I was just writing a slightly defensive post about wild comb. I feel less alone now!
- My longhive is National based, and uses standard National deep frames. So they all get disturbed a bit when I take the crownboards off. 
- I could be using foundation in them, but, after 4 years of gradually experimenting, by now I'm running all of my Nationals on wild comb. It's all still within frames, and if any frames get cross-combed together I sort it out as soon as I can. So I can inspect them all just like any other bad, evil conventional beekeeper does ;-)
The wild comb is for all kinds of reasons: last year was my first try at all-wild-comb broodnests; I'm loving it so far, might stick with it, might not.
But I've got one very good new reason for being keen on a longhive, and it's not an unusual one - doctor's orders: no heavy lifting. I'm not being the perfect patient in this regard, but I am trying to cut down. 
So... I'm trying to open the broodnest by adding combs in the centre, following Michael Bush's ideas. Didn't have chance to do it last year as the spring arrived earlier than the longhive did. Seems to be working ok so far this year. No new bracecomb on the crownboard, so they're not clamouring for Up, unlike a couple of their neighbours!

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## Emma

> I actually feel that the majority of people would be better learning to read a colony in a conventional hive before getting into the rather more advanced world of topbar hives (there, I've said it). I am of course referring to using the hives as a tool to manage the bees; no leave alone nonsense here.


:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Music to my ears. I read and loved parts of the story being spun about top-bar longhives, back before I was actually responsible for any bees, but I'd already started lovingly restoring my dad's handmade Nationals and didn't want to be cut off from the collective experience of "conventional" beeks. I have _never_ regretted starting with standard Nationals, on foundation, with varroa treatments.
As a current enthusiast for wild comb, I'm intrigued - what's brought you back to using foundation, and are you going to give up wild comb completely?

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## chris

> . The problem with a Warre as I see it, is that you have to lift the whole lot up to put another box at the bottom which seems unnecessary work.


That is the beautiful theory of how the bees build downwards onto fresh comb for the brood box and leaving boxes of honey on top. Of course the reality is less comprehensible (to me at least) with the bees doing different things all the time. Marc Gatineau who was abee farmer working only Warrés invented his lift to save his back. I was talking recently with his daughter who has taken over from him. She admitted that for a long time now she has been running Warré hives like other hives.Bottom 2 boxes for brood, and others added on top when necessary like supers. She also uses frames. So, it would seem that the only (dis)advantage of a Warré is its size. I presume it's too small for yellows, as Adam points out.
As for me, I added a box (no.3) underneath at the end of winter, and this year will add boxes on top when the flows start.

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## prakel

> As a current enthusiast for wild comb, I'm intrigued - what's brought you back to using foundation, and are you going to give up wild comb completely?


A few things. There's a high cost involved in running colonies on natural comb. I've read plenty of clear cut statements about bees building natural comb quicker than they pull foundation out, well, I've got a real time comparison going on at the moment and there's absolutely no doubt that they're choosing the foundation in preference to the empty frames and, when they do get to working both together they complete the foundation sooner.

The Beekeeper's Quarterly reprinted an article by Murray McGreggor a few years ago (was originally a post on Bee-L I believe) where he went into some detail regards *"Drawn Comb, Foundation or Starter Strips -which method gives the best honey yields?".* BKQ No 94 Dec 2008.  Good reading. 

There's also a pdf *Low Cost Foundation by by K S Aidoo and R J Paxton.* which comes to a similar conclusion that's well worth reading:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...t7udhSnQ5DKJlA

Another cost is that of keeping way too many drones on the wing. Once a colony is established on natural comb it seems to produce drones beyond it's needs. Why this is I really couldn't say. 20% drone comb in natural nests is the figure normally touted as 'right'. 20% allows for a lot of drones in a modified dadant hive. I've not measured the comb (edit: for drone cell percentage although I may now do so as I pull the old combs) or counted the bodies but I can see quite clearly that there are too many for _my_ liking. There's a suggestion that quality surpasses quantity, again, I don't know if this is right but it makes a lot of sense to me.

My use of natural comb started as an enforced money saving strategy, I don't regret the experience one bit as it's certainly opened my eyes to a few things and yes, I will still use some natural comb although I doubt that it'll have a prominent place in our main hives. I do have a few ideas which I'd like to play around with, but that's for the future. What should be remembered though is that in my opinion I would be a lot further forward than I am if I'd had regular access to foundation.

None of this should be read to mean that I think natural comb colonies don't have a place in beekeeping it's just not the right way forward for myself.

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## Jon

I tend to put a couple of drone combs in every hive to try and stop them drawing drone cells wherever there is a little gap.
I take your point though Prakel as they often draw drone comb when I was hoping they would draw worker cells.
It's all about timing and how many drones they already have. I am still trying to get a handle on the cell size they draw with natural comb.

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## prakel

5.1mm was the smallest mine ever got to -measured on the three lines to try and get a more accurate reading than the common measurement across one line of cells. I'm no fan of the 'small bees are better' school of thought -I prefer the heavyweights motto...'a good big one beats a good little one'.

I suppose I'll have to increase the varroa treatments now that I'm using foundation again.

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## Jon

> I suppose I'll have to increase the varroa treatments now that I'm using foundation again.


Michael Bush will be watching over you!

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## prakel

> Michael Bush will be watching over you!


Don't forget the British Mike B'. I rate them as highly as each other.

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## Jon

The British Mike B is not a small cell devotee though, more of a prolific swarm catcher.

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## madasafish

> @ MAAF
> I remember you writing that you were putting frames to replace the top bars in your Warré(s). So, have you totally abandoned them now? I find the Warré good for heat retention. Or are you referring only to your horizontal tbh?
> 
> I read a lot that top bar hives give us calm bees that are much  less agressive because of less tinkering with the hive. I have found (though with only one Warré I can't extrapolate) that because the bees are rarely visited, when they are they seem to resent it, and treat me much more badly then my Dadant bees .


Sorry for the delay in replying.

My experience is that bees in TBHs can be very aggressive if they are the wrong type of bee.  Just like any other.

The good news when you open up a TBH, you only open two frames at most at a time (one for space, one to inspect) so less heat loss and fewer upset bees.

The bad news if if you want to inspect thoroughly, you have to move a LOT of bars..

The bees I have in TBHs are no more docile than teh same bees in jumbo langs.

BUT INSPECTION is much more difficult..


I have just had an outbreak of AFB and it's wiped out ALL my TBHs. I have not yet decided but I may probably not refill them and stick to langs.

Of my 2 langs + 1 lang nuc, one was infected (last frame 1 cell.)

I need to refill my petrol can. Killing bees in TBHs with petrol is very messy.

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## Jon

Bloody hell. That's bad news MAAF.
Have you had AFB in your area recently?

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## gavin

Sorry to hear that.  Bummer.  

I would have imagined that TBHs are less likely to get AFB as swapping combs in is less easy.

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## madasafish

> Bloody hell. That's bad news MAAF.
> Have you had AFB in your area recently?


There was a case late last year within 0.5miles (or less). Apparently abandoned with lots of bees and infection immediately evident on inspection - so bad...

Our Association Apiary had 3 infected colonies spring last year.

Swapping combs on TBHs is easy if you use a comb stand.. ..

Lots of hives round here apparently not on Beebase..

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## Emma

> A few things. There's a high cost involved in running colonies on natural comb...


Thanks for the explanation, Prakel. That makes plenty of sense. I've heard Murray on the subject of starter strips, I think that "false economy" might have been the phrase he used.
For various reasons, honey crops haven't featured much in my first 4 seasons of beekeeping. One reason is that I really like the bees I have, so I like raising colonies to pass on to other people. (By the same token, I like seeing their drones around.) Another reason is that the yield I've most wanted from them so far is experience of bees, & of working with bees & of bee behaviour. Wild comb certainly provides quite a dose of that!  
...but I don't want to just keep bees as pets forever, I want them to make a contribution to the local (human) food supply, so I'll have to face the wax/efficiency  question someday. Good to have those reference	s, thanks. I'm really interested in the idea of using plain sheets of wax - don't think I've heard of that one before. That would answer one of the things I'm looking for, which is to let the bees choose their own size of cells. An experiment for next season, maybe...

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## Emma

> I suppose I'll have to increase the varroa treatments now that I'm using foundation again.


Are you serious, or joking? So far I've found Michael Bush's advice on managing longhives, managing wild comb, and comb guides really good. I'm planning to try wild comb nests for at least a couple of years (or should that be, a couple of complete changes of comb?) to find out whether I can replicate his reports of reduced varroa numbers with smaller cells,
but I was pretty much assuming it was too much to hope for.
Generally speaking, I try not to believe miracle bee health claims made about natural comb. Witness today's news - really, really sorry to hear that, madasafish.

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## prakel

> The British Mike B is not a small cell devotee though


But he's very experienced at rescuing stray bees on natural comb; wacking them in a box and then farming them out on pollination contracts -without any loss of resistance. 




> ...but I don't want to just keep bees as pets forever, I want them to make a contribution to the local (human) food supply, so I'll have to face the wax/efficiency  question someday. Good to have those reference	s, thanks. I'm really interested in the idea of using plain sheets of wax - don't think I've heard of that one before. That would answer one of the things I'm looking for, which is to let the bees choose their own size of cells. An experiment for next season, maybe...


This is where choices need to be made. Nothing at all wrong with not wanting honey from your bees if you're more interested in other aspects of their life cycle but equally, there's no shame in wanting to take a harvest from them.

There's a thread on this forum about blank foundation sheets started by mellifera crofter: Wax




> Are you serious, or joking? So far I've found Michael Bush's advice on managing longhives, managing wild comb, and comb guides really good. I'm planning to try wild comb nests for at least a couple of years (or should that be, a couple of complete changes of comb?) to find out whether I can replicate his reports of reduced varroa numbers with smaller cells,
> but I was pretty much assuming it was too much to hope for.
> Generally speaking, I try not to believe miracle bee health claims made about natural comb.


Tongue in cheek might be a good description of my comment. MB's site has got some interesting ideas, the section containing transcripts of old books by different authors, which he's made freely available, is especially good. Not sure off the top of my head what his experience with horizontal top-bar hives is but if I was wanting to learn about them I'd be looking towards Wyatt Mangum's site as a primary online reference:

200 Top-Bar Hives: The Low-Cost Sustainable Way





> Witness today's news - really, really sorry to hear that, madasafish.


Equally. I hope that you can get on top of the situation locally before more damage is done.

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## Emma

> There's a thread on this forum about blank foundation sheets started by mellifera crofter: Wax


Fantastic thread, thanks for pointing it out.




> MB's site has got some interesting ideas... Not sure off the top of my head what his experience with horizontal top-bar hives is...


Michael Bush makes a really nice analysis of the advantages (in his view) of wild comb in stacks of framed boxes vs framed longhives vs topbar longhives. For him, the only reason for preferring topbar to a framed longhive is cost & ease of construction. He's very positive about longhives.




> ...but if I was wanting to learn about them I'd be looking towards Wyatt Mangum's site as a primary online reference:
> 200 Top-Bar Hives: The Low-Cost Sustainable Way


Ironically, what puts me off Wyatt Magnum's book is the cost! It's nice to be reminded of his site, though. He's great on bee trash :-)  I'll buy the book when I'm sure I have time to read it. My other misgiving is over his hive design. It speaks to me of reliably hot summers, and straightforwardly cold winters, and not a lot in the way of high winds or horizontal rain. That means I'd need a different hive design to his, and that some of his management ideas just might not work here.

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## madasafish

> But he's very experienced at rescuing stray bees on natural comb; wacking them in a box and then farming them out on pollination contracts -without any loss of resistance. 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where choices need to be made. Nothing at all wrong with not wanting honey from your bees if you're more interested in other aspects of their life cycle but equally, there's no shame in wanting to take a harvest from them.
> 
> There's a thread on this forum about blank foundation sheets started by mellifera crofter: Wax
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks..

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## prakel

> I have found (though with only one Warré I can't extrapolate) that because the bees are rarely visited, when they are they seem to resent it, and treat me much more badly then my Dadant bees .





> Marc Gatineau who was abee farmer working only Warrés invented his lift to save his back. I was talking recently with his daughter who has taken over from him. She admitted that for a long time now she has been running Warré hives like other hives.Bottom 2 boxes for brood, and others added on top when necessary like supers. She also uses frames. So, it would seem that the only (dis)advantage of a Warré is its size. I presume it's too small for yellows, as Adam points out.


Chris, how do you find your warre and dadants compare (other than the current temper issues). I seem to remember you writing, a year or two ago, that the warre had out performed the dadants so far as surplus honey was concerned. Is that your usual experience with them?

I've been thinking along similar lines as Gatineau jr for some time now; using warre type boxes with frames and top supering but placing the emphasis on using them as mating nucs with a possible, small, honey harvest before uniting for winter. I've not got as far along this road as I'd hoped -yet, but the idea is certainly evolving.

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## chris

Hi Prakel.Here is my finding, though I stress that with only one Warré it's probably worse than useless. I think it's "horses for courses".I don't have an early big flow like osr.I'm in the countryside with fields,hedges and variety of food. My colonies are blacks, and tend to be fairly small. They manage to fill a Dadant, but not for long, and not every year.The crucial difference comes in winter. Although the dadant and Warré colonies produce roughly the same quantity of honey,the bees overwinter on much less in the Warré, so my part is larger. For me that is advantage no.1. The other advantage is the one size box system. if I had larger colnies, I'd use the same system but with larger hives.The REAL downside of the Warré is the top bar palaver.Inspections are a must,and with top bars it's just not realistic. For this year, it's too late what with moving and other hassle, but my system from nexy year on will be as follows. I have already given away all my Dadants except one to my son in law.I shall start up again with just a few Warrés, but with frames.I'm not sure yet whether I'll super or nadir or a combination of both depending on flow. I shall limit my inspections to using a building frame though I'm not sure yet if this will be on the edge of the brood nest or behind a window.

As for queen raising it's not my thing, but Gatineau thinks that a one box Warré system is ideal for it.
http://apiculturegatineau.fr/photo_8.html

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## prakel

Thanks for the reply Chris. Your comparisons are interesting enough. There's a German guy who's running a business with a lot of Gatineau type hives. His attitude is very much that any hive is just a tool which seems to be your position too. 

After seeing how well the mini-plus mating hives work my mind started looking at ways of harnessing the surprising potential of such a small unit. This in turn led me to various warre sites (and a few old books) but it was the site which you linked that really started to add some flesh to my ideas.

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## The Drone Ranger

If you wanted free comb drawn that isn't drone size then a pretty safe bet is a swarm 
The fishing line frames I plonked in this year were drawn worker anyway
Just a thought

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## chris

> That is the beautiful theory of how the bees build downwards onto fresh comb for the brood box and leaving boxes of honey on top. .................As for me, I added a box (no.3) underneath at the end of winter, and this year will add boxes on top when the flows start.


The 3rd box, underneath, is only partly touched.  The boxes 4 and 5 which I added on top at the beginning of the lime flow (which ran straight into the lavender flow) are, on today's inspection, both full of honey.
 Perhaps when the flow is good, the brood nest can't go down quickly enough, and as bees prefer to store above the brood, supering is more logical than nadiring at this time?

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