# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Kieler mini nucs?

## Poly Hive

Anyone have experience of this type of mini and in particular over wintering them?


PH

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## fatshark

Yes, both.

Overwintered with upper chamber on, so a nominal 6 frames on each level. Fondant block above. Also used a frame feeder to contain fondant, rather than the wasteful poly container that's supplied with them. Only used them for a couple of winters with perhaps 50% success rate, or less.

A mating nucs, they're fine.

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## mbc

Yes, as fatshark, fine as mating nucs but diminished returns trying to overwinter them even when doubled up and combined.

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## madasafish

Yes  used with success. Trying to overwinter queen in extended one with poly cover...(full of bees , very active)

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## Poly Hive

Hmm mine don't have an upper chamber so I wonder if we are talking about the same item. Takes 6 frames with the feed compartment not in use. I'll see about a photo if I can later. 

PHDSCF2274[1].jpg

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## fatshark

Hmmm ... looks like an older model perhaps. 

This is the one I have:
https://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/c...nt=39863616974

And here is the upper chamber
https://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/c...nt=39863621454

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## Poly Hive

LOL no perhaps at all I was given most of mine by Bernard Mobus so they are a good 27 years in my possession and who knows how long he had them before that. I wonder if the top would fit mine as I am not seeing dimensions on the site you linked to. 

I did a sort of half hearted attempt some years ago using an old fish box as a "cosy" so am thinking of making up some cosies and ekes to put fondant in and wintering on the 6 bars. If it works it's a bonus and if not well well no great loss. 

PH

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## Jon

You can stack up Apideas as much as you like as well

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## Poly Hive

No doubt Jon but I don't have any of them and am not planning on spending out when I already have 20+ Kieler units.  :Smile: 

PH

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## Jon

I haven't used Kielers for overwintering but I have tried them out for general summer use. They work ok but it's worth spending the extra couple of quid per unit to work with Apideas imho. The Kielers don't have a firm inner plastic cover with a slot for a queen cell so you have to immediately start adapting things if you want to use ripe queen cells. The inner cover also tends to leak bees as the bees can push it up when the lid is removed. The poly also appears to be a little less dense than the poly in an Apidea and bees and wasps can chew holes where you dont want them. MBC and others will be on to sing the virtues of the mini plus in a minute.

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## Poly Hive

Well Jon having used them for the  length of time already mentioned I disagree with several points. Now remember I am NOT talking about ones bought yesterday. I have never seen burrowing in the polly apart from some mouse damage. I seem to remember on an other forum several complaining bitterly about that problem with the Apideas.

 My Keilers have a perspex inner that Bernard made as I suspect they were bought with no inner supplied and so it is certainly heavier than the bees combined strength.  They don't have a slot for a Q cell so yet the inner has to be removed and the cell pushed against a comb. Remembering these units are designed to be started with a virgin not a cell. So there is no difference in giving a cell to a Keiler than to a five frame nuc. 

Anyway all if this is a side show as I am asking about over wintering tricks.in KEILER units not anything else please. 

PH

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## fatshark

OK, here goes ...

Get rid of the internal feeder - takes up too much space (1/3rd of the ground floor). I only use this when starting them off from a cup of bees (and a cell ... which they are designed for - see below)
Buy or build or bodge an upper storey.
Build a 'frame feeder' for fondant but make it shallower (to fit the upper storey). I've posted a photo of one of these previously I think. Essentially a hollow with QE nailed on each side. Just use 'ears' for the top bar so you can fill it with fondant. A better DIYer than me (i.e. everyone) would make one side fold down perhaps.
Build the colony up from one storey to two.

If you can afford it (or can build it) get rid of the frame feeder and add a further storey packed with a kilo or so of fondant. I used to make a false floor of Correx and just used this over the top. 

Keep them as sheltered as possible. No frost pockets. I used to either leave them on a low stand in the lee of a fence under some ivy or similar. Alternatively, I've overwinter them in an unheated greenhouse with a single tube going from the entrance through a hole in the wall.

Even with a lot of TLC I think this is a borderline activity. 50% might be the best achieved, though the numbers were small so not statistically significant. This was when I lived in the Midlands. Now I'm in Scotland I'd probably not bother. Instead I'd use 3/4/5 frame nucs which are a better bet all round.

It's not just the survival rate, it's also the ability to get late-mated (presumably, if not, you've got all the issues of managing these small boxes through the season when they're rapidly running out of space) queens built up properly for the winter. Everything is easier in a full frame nuc, and if it all goes belly-up you can rescue what you can and simply unite with another colony.

These Kielers *are* designed for QC's. They come with no crownboard by a thick piece of poly with a simple flap works just fine. Gaffer tape or pin it to one edge so it doesn't blow/lift away. The purchased top bars (at least those provided by ModernBeekeeping) have cutouts through which you can introduce a cell. The bars are close enough together you can hang a Nicot (?) cell holder by the ears. I've done it dozens of times and it works perfectly. 

However, don't buy the top bars from MB ... build your own, and simply cut opposing recesses in the two central ones. 9x21mm (if I remember correctly) timber works fine.

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## Calluna4u

> However, don't buy the top bars from MB ... build your own, and simply cut opposing recesses in the two central ones. 9x21mm (if I remember correctly) timber works fine.


How much on earth are they charging for them?????  Direct from source they are so cheap it is not even worth picking up free wood and cutting them (about 6p IIRC)....and the factory made ones are all scalloped on both sides so the frames don't need to be in a fixed position or order.

However, much like on the Amm thread......people are not understanding so clearly that the aims of an amateur beekeeper who wants to prove he can get mini nucs through the winter, even if only once, are very different from the consideration of whether it is in fact worth doing so. Like you I cannot see why one would try very often as made up into a poly nuc they stand a far better chance AND are ready to go on the correct combs in spring.

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## fatshark

50p

https://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/c...nt=39863617486

 :EEK!:

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## Poly Hive

I am wondering if you have read Mating in Miature? The Keiler is meant to be started with a virgin and continued by cells or so Bernard taught me. 

Dear me some people are easily parted from their cash. 

PH

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## fatshark

Yep. Got a copy here.
Not sure what's wrong with starting them with bees and a QC. Works well. I've then got a second and - very rarely - third queen (again from cells) mated from the same box in the season. The last ones would be overwintered (or attempted).
I've also let them raise a scrub queen just to keep the box going, then give it another QC later in the year ... probably not good practice, but it saves making them up again (which is always a pretty beastly job).
I think these boxes are great for getting queens mated pretty quickly at the best time of the season. However, they're high maintenance. I think one of the main reasons most people don't rear queens, or are put off from doing so, is that they think grafting is difficult and then struggle with absconding/starving/robbed mini-nucs.

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## Jon

I start off a mini nuc with a virgin queen but once she has mated and it has brood you want easy access to insert a queen cell after removal of the queen. In an ideal world I remove a mated queen and put a ripe queen cell straight in. 'Mating in Miniature' is an interesting read but is pretty dated stuff and recommends starting fresh each time. There is a big focus on a single frame mating nuc with glass sides.
If you set up mini nucs for continuous production you can get 3 or occasionally 4 queens in a season - weather permitting. Overall I would average somewhere between 2 and 3 mated queens per unit.

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## fatshark

Four is good going Jon. Never done that. The other issue with these very small boxs is that they're not ideal to check the quality of the Q. 

The single frame box in Mating in Miniature would be ideal to send to an isolated mating site where quality drones are available. I know they do this sort of thing on the continent.

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## busybeephilip

The "mating in minature" by Mobus, now thats a blast from the past.  I went to great bother making the little boxes as per instructions - never worked that well, just not enough bees to keep the thing going for long enough so little boxes wnet into the bin

If you want to go down the single frame route then the EWK style nuc is the way to do it.  They are regularly used in europe's mating stations.   All mine are home made and very cheap to make but expensive to buy.  I like them cos they are mouse resistant!  - As Jon knows, i use these routinely now instead of apideas and I don't have many problems - in fact much better that apideas/min nucs cos you can look at the bees night or day through the glass/perspex without having to pull frames out and expose bees.   I just fill with a cup of bees, wait an hour then pop in an incubator hatched virgin or queen cell.  They are strictly queen rearing not for over wintering.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... If you want to go down the single frame route then the EWK style nuc is the way to do it. ...


I Googled 'EWB nuc', and all I could find was that it stands for 'ein waben kasten' (or, a honeycomb box). What does this box look like, BBP?
Kitta

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## busybeephilip

there are lots of you tube videos - here is one link from a series of videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol0CNaLvJXM

also - a half size version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oKQNnB-JlU

In german but you can see what they are doing !

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## Calluna4u

> 50p
> 
> https://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/c...nt=39863617486


Bloody hell....................no wonder you want to make your own. They are made in Eastern Europe and I suspect they cost about 3p to make over there. Full deep frames, made up, eyeletted, and ready wired are currently coming in at about 49p from these sources.

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## busybeephilip

Apideas cost around £30 , the EWK's cost around £26 for just one box  and last for ever- maybe thats why they are the best  :Smile: 

http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/se/...sta.php&id=585

277kr = about £27

And thats just the inner box not the house (£57) to hold 2 of them    -  lot cheaper to make !

If you ever get to see one of these from sweden, the workmanship is surperb, I have one a friend sent me and its a work of art


You wont ever see these at thorneys - they cant make enough money out of them

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## fatshark

> Bloody hell....................no wonder you want to make your own. They are made in Eastern Europe and I suspect they cost about 3p to make over there. Full deep frames, made up, eyeletted, and ready wired are currently coming in at about 49p from these sources.


At 50p each I can grow my own trees, then cut, plane and shape the wood for less than that.

I seem to remember that to qualify for 49p/frame you need to be purchasing more than 10 at a time  :Wink: 

If we're talking about daft prices for frames then it's worth looking at Thorne's foundationless V-shaped top bar frames ... 10, ready assembled for £34. 

I suspect that's part of the catalogue you rarely visit  :Wink:

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## busybeephilip

You might also find that after brexit, all that imported stuff will skyrocket in price    Apidea £50 anyone?

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## busybeephilip

> If we're talking about daft prices for frames then it's worth looking at Thorne's foundationless V-shaped top bar frames


Foundationless frame  - small bit of thin ply and thats job done     ........   did you not read that bit "By popular demand"  ... first I've ever heard of these

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## busybeephilip

Actually, jsut noticed Thorneys have now stopped selling apideas but do the plastic rainbow thing instead for £8.50   Looks like a small version of a picnic  ice box (now there's a thought  could this below be converted into a ... Nextgen mating hive? ..)

https://www.physique.co.uk/Hot-Cold-...fe&fo_s=gplauk

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## Jon

> Apideas cost around £30 ,


I paid less than £15 for most of mine direct from Swienty (pre Brexit and better exchange rate) and that's without claiming back the VAT.

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## Jon

> Actually, jsut noticed Thorneys have now stopped selling apideas but do the plastic rainbow thing instead for £8.50   Looks like a small version of a picnic  ice box (now there's a thought  could this below be converted into a ... Nextgen mating hive? ..)
> 
> https://www.physique.co.uk/Hot-Cold-...fe&fo_s=gplauk


There were people using those rainbow units at Minnowburn and getting mated queens out of them last summer.

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## busybeephilip

> There were people using those rainbow units at Minnowburn and getting mated queens out of them last summer.


Jon - As you are well aware I was not at minnowburn last summer, However, there is little difference between rainbows and apideas, rainbows are less likely to be eaten by mice therefore will last longer but would be just as efficient rolewise for queen mating units compared to apideas, same size of frames.  Personally I won't be buying anymore commercially made mating nucs - All DIY stuff for me, thats the fun in beekeeping  :Smile:

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## prakel

> Personally I won't be buying anymore commercially made mating nucs - All DIY stuff for me, thats the fun in beekeeping


That's where we were heading....and where *I* will be heading again once I start restocking -but they won't, strictly, be 'mini' as such.

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## Calum

> I Googled 'EWB nuc', and all I could find was that it stands for 'ein waben kasten' (or, a honeycomb box). What does this box look like, BBP?
> Kitta


https://www.holtermann-shop.de/Koeni...gt9v492p6tv083
Its a 1/3rd frame size box, with candy store (above - I prefer below so it never runs down in the heat). They are placed in a wooded housing 
https://www.holtermann-shop.de/Koeni...gt9v492p6tv083
for insulation and protection from the sun (the windows are not otherwise idea).
The system is handy as you can check if the queen is : there, mated & laying without opening anything up.
you pay for it though.

Also the windows make checking for drones possible, some mating sites in Germany refuse Apideas, because they cannot check for drones, and they really do care about keeping the mating sites "clean"

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## madasafish

> Jon - As you are well aware I was not at minnowburn last summer, However, there is little difference between rainbows and apideas, rainbows are less likely to be eaten by mice therefore will last longer but would be just as efficient rolewise for queen mating units compared to apideas, same size of frames.  Personally I won't be buying anymore commercially made mating nucs - All DIY stuff for me, thats the fun in beekeeping


I have 5 rainbow minis - raised 7 queens from them this year. I have a program to make min mating nucs from celotex.. about £4 each.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Its a 1/3rd frame size box, with candy store (above - I prefer below so it never runs down in the heat). They are placed in a wooded housing ... for insulation and protection from the sun (the windows are not otherwise idea). ...


Thanks Calum and BBP.

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## Jambo

> I have a program to make min mating nucs from celotex.. about £4 each.


Ooh any chance you could share details on this please?

Thanks

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## madasafish

> Ooh any chance you could share details on this please?
> 
> Thanks


In about 2 weeks time when I've tidied up (i.e. drawn) the plans :-)

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## masterbk

EWB nucs Mininuke3.jpgMininuke1.jpgMininuke2.jpg

I took these photos decades ago using  35 camera  and have scanned them to digitise them to upload (apologises about the quality of the images)

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## busybeephilip

Those images are of the old bibba nucs who tried to copy the EWK system and failed


This is what you want  EWK nucs 

http://www.honingraat.eu/en/mating-n...3-raam-dn.html
http://www.honingraat.eu/en/263-mating-nucs

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## madasafish

> Yes  used with success. Trying to overwinter queen in extended one with poly cover...(full of bees , very active)


Update:
Successfully survived. They had an external poly cover which extended from roof to cover super down to floor. And a wooden board on top to keep snow and rain off..

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## Adam

One of the problems with mini-nucs is the absconding on a warm day. There must be a size of hive where the absconding stops. I have some mini-nucs which contain 5 of these frames and I had abscondings from these, so the size is still too small. Smallframenucframea.jpg

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## busybeephilip

Mini nucs - the way i look at them is they are just for getting queens mated, end of story,  once she starts to lay then she is removed into 5 frame nuc and a new Queen cell added to the mating box.  Bees will abscond when the heat and  or population gets to big, and of course dare I mention the alleged "mating swarm" .  I use the EWK type nucs home made and dead simple to use.

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## Thymallus

The Apidea's/mini nucs I use have a small queen excluder to put over the front once the queen is laying to prevent this absconding....but agree get the mated queens out as soon as you can.

Out of interest what are peoples success....or failure rates.... with Apideas?

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## Adam

I have caught a few swarms from mini-nucs where the queen has already been clipped. Yes, I know I should have put an excluder over the entrance at the same time! However sometimes you don't get there in time after mating to put an excluder over and she's off literally before you know it!

Anecdotal evidence from me, in that I have never counted, is that mini-nucs are less reliable compared to larger nucs. Here are some reasons, you may have more:-

Colonies can get too big very easily.
Use up all the food.
Absconding.
Laying workers if the first queen or queencell fails. (With no brood present).
Too weak/small to defend wasps.

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