# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  JzBz queen cups

## drumgerry

Just wondering if there's any amongst us using these?  I have a bag full of them and fancied giving them a go.  To that end I made up a frame with two bars with holes in them to take the prongs.  Does anyone know how easy these are to remove once replete with wax and sealed queen cell - I'm thinking a hive tool might be necessary which might lead to damaged queen cells in my klutzy hands.  The type I mean are those with the wide base and the oval shaped prong which grips when you turn them on to the oval cross section.  Or do I need to table saw a groove the length of the cell bar rather than use individual holes?

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## mbc

I think a slot the length of the bar is the way to go, I bought a few like this from Abelo and they work fine.

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## drumgerry

Thanks MBC.  And there's me spent the last half hour reaming out the holes I'd drilled so that the cups pop in and out with no resistance but are tight enough once twisted!  In case you're looking for more I noticed that Mann Lake have them by the hundred at an ok price.  Never ordered from them yet though so I don't know what they're like as a company.

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## fatshark

Use the bar you've lovingly created ... it'll be just fine. I used to use JzBz cups for grafting, push-fit into a hole in the bar exactly as you describe. I then would add a thin edge of wax to hold them in place. Once drawn out, capped and mature I would use a thin blade to prize them free. Probably a Stanley knife rather than a hive tool. This was straightforward.

I now use the Nicot system because of the hair roller cages. However, a bee farmer it know uses the JzBz cups because he reckons you can identify well fed queens in them once the cells are mature. If you hold them against the light the semi-translucent base lets enough light through to see if there is a good plug of Royal Jelly left ... if there isn't he discards them.

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## Beefever

Just to resurrect this thread.  
I normally graft into Jenter cups but because when I clean them at the end of the season, I must have the water too hot, they have become distorted and the roller cages have become loose and an unreliable fit.  I bought some JZBZ cell cups because I believe they can boiled clean.  The thing is, do they do roller cages to fit them? I’ve not seen any.

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## fatshark

They don't as far as I know. I've used my own hair rollers - well, not my own (and anyone who knows me will understand that) - and taped them in place, but it was a bit of a botch. Just make sure you get to the cells early enough ...

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## Greengage

Not that I know anything about this but I was with a chap and he was adding a bit of wax to the plug holders that secured the rollers no problem for him.

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## fatshark

Surely not to JzBz cups though? ... they have no 'cup holder' to which the cage attaches. The Nicot ones are the ones I use - yellowish cup holder. The cage is sometimes a bit slack and a dab of wax does help.

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## Greengage

sorry you are correct it was the Nicot ones.

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## prakel

> Just to resurrect this thread.  
> I normally graft into Jenter cups but because when I clean them at the end of the season,


Slight diversion here but a subject which often comes up and loosely ties in is to this thread is that of reusing the cell cups or not.

It comes to mind as I was recently rereading a copy of the ABJ, May 2010 (I think, from memory) which has an article on Dave miksa and his family. It states that they only use brand new cups, having recorded a 3% difference in cell completion between new/cleaned. 3%, i would have thought almost unquantifyable (and probably not worth worrying about) for someone doing ten or perhaps a couple of hundred cells but the Miksa's at the time that the article was written were producing over 100,000 cells per season so the figures do take on some significance.

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## masterbk

Considering the price a breeder can get for a queen the cost of the cups is insignificant. Not worth the time and trouble cleaning them out for reuse.  How penny pinching can you get?

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## mbc

> Considering the price a breeder can get for a queen the cost of the cups is insignificant. Not worth the time and trouble cleaning them out for reuse.  How penny pinching can you get?


Ach I'm not a Scot but I'm from Cardiganshire, how long is a piece of string? 
Another point is how many little bits of plastic do you want to send to landfill?

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## Calluna4u

This is an interesting one.

On one hand we have a full crate, about 100,000, Nicot brown plastic cell cups at a cost of under 1p each...well under. we have Jolanta or her assistant, on a reasonable rate of pay, scraping off some wax and old royal jelly from used cups. Cost? Maybe say 15p per cup to reuse them? No economic argument whatsoever. Reusing the cups increases material cost per cell by about 2000%.

However.........

The Miksa's live in queen cells raising heaven. They would draw them on cardboard.
Most of us live in places where it is far more marginal and every little assistance on the 'take rate' is welcome.
The reused cells average about a 90% take rate (not too clean btw! boil them and they are back to like new, just a hand scrape of the interior suffices). New cells average significantly less than that. Probably if one is being honest and not discounting the poor sets we all get if conditions are not right, something like 70%. 

It only takes ONE extra happy ending from a cell bar (meaning a mated laying queen) and the cleaning of the cells is worthwhile, and actually the improvement averages 3 or 4 per cell bar of nice fat cells.
But lets say just the one.................the cleaning has cost about 4.20 if all cells were cruddy....but most are not bad at all as the mini nucs tend to clean out the royal jelly for you and all you need to do is slice off the cell walls back to the cup with a sharp knife.

So, simply on cost of cups its a non starter, but in the overall game its completely the other way round, and despite MY initial negativity to scavenging (as she was taught to do elsewhere, albeit on success rate, not cost saving) its actually better in the long run.

Just leave them very much as the bees worked them, not overly clean as humans might think better.

BUT.....if the cell has not hatched and the pupa has died in the cell then bin them and do NOT reuse. It MIGHT be a virus. Also...though have seen it only in infected hives, never in the breeding unit that is run strictly apart, a dead queen cell CAN be EFB. Just another cause to be wary of the ones that never hatch.

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