# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Delicate larvae.

## Greengage

Soon within the next 6 weeks I will try grafting.
1. How delicate is the larvae (Don't tell me the girls will be upset loosing their babies) so long as its not squished and killed can it take much abuse. eg dropping it into cell , knocking it off cell wall, dropping it off brush or grafting tool and picking it up again.  
2. How long will they survive out of the cell or even in the cell outside the brood box, Ok if I am not in a freezer and they don't dry out.
4. Why must they go down the way they were removed do they  not have spiracles on both sides.
5. Do they need royal jelly transferred with them or will the nurse bees sort it out.

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## Adam

Not sure if I can answer all the above.....
1) If I can't get a larva out cleanly and place it cleanly, I discard it as I am not convinced that they work unless treated gently.
2) Some books talk about grafting in a shed with the kettle boiling away.. I think that's overkill. I graft over the colony I need the larvae from. Grafted larvae will cool quickly if left out in a frame propped up by a hive for example. I did that last year for an hour or two and only one survived. The only reason I did that was that I had demonstrated grafting (BBKA queen rearing assessment I was a guinea-pig for) and then left the frame to one side and later though "well, you never know" and popped it in a queenless colony.
4)I have always put them down as they come out - or that's what tends to happen. I am sure that some have flipped over but I cannot say whether they have  failed to come good as a result.
5)I don't think so. However in order to ensure that they don't get dry, a dip of the grafting paintbrush in an older larva to pick up some royal jelly (or to use that from a squished larva) and paint it in the bottom of the cell (I use plastic cell cups) will give a little dampness. Not sure it's necessary though.

What happened to 3)?

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## fatshark

1. Less delicate than you imagine. But that doesn't mean you should be rough  :Wink:  You should have lots to choose from, so if there's doubt about whether they've been knocked about a bit, choose another.
2. See the response from Adam, but if you look after them a long time. I've moved grafts between apiaries, wrapped in damp a tea towel with a warm heater block keeping them nice and humid.
3. Tuesdays ... always Tuesdays. It has to be a Tuesday. I assume that was the answer to the Q you omitted ... if not, apologies.
4. They don't have to go down the same way. Look for the you-tube vids of people washing them out of cells in the hundreds, chucking them into a tray and grafting them ... there's no way they retain the same orientation.
5. No, but it certainly does no harm. Given the choice I pick small larvae that are already in a bed of RJ. It helps slide the paintbrush under them and helps 'stick'/transfer them to the cell cup.

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## Greengage

Cheers tks dont know where 3 went. I was curious about flipping them over as I was told they must go in the way the came out or they would suffocate. I thought they had spiracles both sides and surly they would turn in the cell as one side cannot develop different to the opposite side. I am following a series of talks by a British beekeeper on utube on queen rearing Mike the beeman ill see how it goes. Also attend a local queen rearing group more questions than answers but bit of fun as its a hobby.

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## Adam

2) I used a house-brick that had been in some warm water for a while as a heat-store - placed inside a nuc.

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## Greengage

Look for the you-tube vids of people washing them out of cells in the hundreds, chucking them into a tray and grafting them.
Do you have a link for that as I tried to find it but no luck. the brick in warm water clever idea, I use a hot water bottle for small chicks when moving them though that does nothing for humidity.

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## Thymallus

> Soon within the next 6 weeks I will try grafting.


Any drones about yet?

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## Greengage

Not here that I saw but I  Assume by the end of April beginning of may there should be some  that will be six weeks, If they emerged this week Drone Hatch 3½ days Capped 10 days +-1 Emerge 24 days +-1 Sexually mature and flying to DCA 38 days +-5 but i wont need them for a while, if I graft in 6 weeks I will not have queens for approx 16 days then time to mature and fly on mating flight sure it always comes together. What could go wrong  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

> What could go wrong


The Beast From The East 5/6 will be blowing a hoolie and you'll need a hairdryer to thaw out the larvae!
Best From The East 3 is due here later in the week 3-4c and snow down to low levels.

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## madasafish

Round here, NO Q rearing starts before end April...in a normal year. I started in 2017 on 29th April. That was a warm Spring..Plants are at least three weeks behind this year..we still have snowdrops flowering and no daffs in flower.

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## Jon

Curiously enough I had a conversation with fatshark about this very theme at the SNHBS conference last weekend.
The thing about placing them the right way up and the blocked spiracles blah blah blah seems to be something that started within Bibba. It's likely in one of the Beo Cooper or Mobus books but is just another old wives tale which gets endlessly propagated. They usually come off the paintbrush the same way up anyway.
In my experience larvae are quite resilient and are most easily damaged by drying out.
Having said that I have grafted into cell cups at one apiary and filled a tupperware container with them then cycled 6 miles to another apiary with the larvae jiggling about in the Tupperware. Most of them got started when placed in the cell raiser colony. The ancient bicycle in question was not equipped with any James Bond style self generating high humidity system or any other defense systems associated with a perilous activity such as moving larvae from one place to another.

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## busybeephilip

grafting via vibration,  do you get better queens that way ? :Stick Out Tongue:

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## mbc

Despite larvae being resilient I work on the principle that once chosen as queens they're visited incredibly frequently by nurse bees so it's best not to get in the way of the natural process. 
@Jon lol, it's nice to hear environmentally friendly solutions to transport problems are used in the pressure cooker environment of queen rearing on the emerald isle.

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## Jon

Yep, it is far more important to have the recipient colony packed with nurse bees than to worry too much about the grafting process.

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## prakel

> 1. Less delicate than you imagine. But that doesn't mean you should be rough  You should have lots to choose from, so if there's doubt about whether they've been knocked about a bit, choose another.


Perfect advice!




> 4. They don't have to go down the same way. Look for the you-tube vids of people washing them out of cells in the hundreds, chucking them into a tray and grafting them ... there's no way they retain the same orientation.


It might be illuminating to actually have twenty or thirty queens that were raised in such a manner running alongside equal numbers of queens raised from larvae treated in a better way... But I don't suppose that would be a fair test because the chances are that someone who treats the larvae in such a cavalier way probably has other equally dubious 'shortcuts' built into the rearing process.

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