# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Q rearing by numbers

## Kate Atchley

Our Ardnamurchan Amm bees are doing well and we hope to welcome a further 12 queens from Colonsay later this year. Meanwhile I'm planning the queen rearing for this year with the 5 colonies we have so far. Would those of you who've done lots of queen rearing with native bees please share your wisdom/experience re the following:
is it important to use different colonies for providing larvae for queens and drones for mating (broader gene pool expected next year)?drone flooding  best to use frames filled with drone foundation or will wired foundation for supers fitted into brood frame do?drone flooding  how many 'drone' frames (of whichever kind you recommend) per colony?mini-nuc numbers: how many queens to be mated from mini-nucs at any one time, with these 5 colonies?any other suggestions?
Lots of beekeepers out there so bracing myself for even more different strategies!

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## Jon

1. You could graft from just one queen but it is good to have a wide variety of unrelated drone producing colonies. If you have several good queens to graft from, better still.
2. both will do. I try and get at least 2 drone combs into every drone producing colony, more if it is a double brood colony.
3. Re mini nucs, you should be able to set up hundreds if your 5 colonies are producing thousands of drones each.

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## Kate Atchley

> 3. Re mini nucs, you should be able to set up hundreds if your 5 colonies are producing thousands of drones each.


Thanks Jon, to the point as ever. Better get a new mortgage for the MNs!

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## Jon

I bought another 50 in February. Order from Swienty. There is a great Sterling/Euro rate at the moment. Mine worked out at less than £16 each including the carriage from Denmark.

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## Kate Atchley

> I bought another 50 in February. Order from Swienty. There is a great Sterling/Euro rate at the moment. Mine worked out at less than £16 each including the carriage from Denmark.


See what you mean. Thanks. Tempting to buy lots as the per-item cost is scaled!

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## gavin

Some of us are using Lyson MiniPlus nucs instead (or at least I will be once they arrive).  Again, cheaper in bulk and sometimes with a bit of haggling.  Cheaper per queen mated than an Apidea and with a top feeder as part of the unit.  Several people have said that wintering is easier in these boxes (after the partition has been taken out) than in Apideas, with one BKF poster saying that his winter losses were the same as larger hives.

Abelo for a UK supplier, also sold by Icko in France (if you can get them to talk to you!) and Wilara in Lithuania where prices are particularly keen at the moment.

There is another design of MiniPlus for sale without the partition and with only entrance, be careful you get the right one if queen rearing is your aim.

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## gavin

On the size of the gene pool, it depends.  If you are planning continually bringing in breeder stock then the number of queens used now doesn't matter too much.  But be wary of restricting the diversity.  In general 50+ colonies are advised in a breeding group and you should spread queen raising around several to many of your better queens.  

If, for example, you graft only from one queen all summer and requeen all your stocks with that line (mated with a diversity of drones) then there will be only a maximum of two different alleles at each gene for each drone in your population next year.   Drones come from only the genes carried in the queen's own cells, and none of the genetic variation she carries in her spermatheca gets used for drones (they come from unfertilised eggs of course).  This is very likely to lead to serious inbreeding.

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## Jon

Thing is, there are quite a number of groups working with Amm in Scotland Ireland and Wales and we could work together with regard to the genetic material.

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## fatshark

> also sold by Icko in France (if you can get them to talk to you!)


Is there a problem ... I just ordered a new toy from them and they were straightforward to deal with and delivered v. fast.

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## drumgerry

Just been on Icko's website for the first time - never heard of them till reading this thread.  Some nice stuff on there.  Especially liked the title for the mini-nuc part of their catalogue - "The nucleus of fecundation".  Great stuff!  Can't we have a category on the forum for discussing the "The nucleus of fecundation"?!!

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## prakel

> with one BKF poster saying that his winter losses were the same as larger hives.


I think he attributed that, at least in part, to having young queens in the boxes which (combined with the nice dimensions of the unit) is probably about the mark. But yes they're very easy and economical to overwinter.

They're also a nice box to keep queens in while they're on the grafting rota.

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## gavin

> Can't we have a category on the forum for discussing the "The nucleus of fecundation"?!!


Fecundation off!!  :Wink:

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## gavin

> They're also a nice box to keep queens in while they're on the grafting rota.


That hadn't occurred to me, thanks.  Jon was also suggesting trying a Paynes 6 frame with a 6 frame brood box on top as a cell raiser.

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## gavin

> Is there a problem ... I just ordered a new toy from them and they were straightforward to deal with and delivered v. fast.


I wrote to them in my very best French with questions on delivery and the like, and heard nothing.  When I returned to their web site later, considering just ordering without knowing what the delivery cost would be, they'd run out of frames.

Besides, once you've searched for them in Google, Icko adverts appear all over the internet, up the side of Facebook and everywhere.  Not something that endears me to a retailer.

Wilara have even better deals and are responsive.  But by the time I got in touch with them I was already negotiating with Abelo for the MiniPluses so have ordered other stuff from Wilara.  Bear in mind these prices get 21% tax added.

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## prakel

> Jon was also suggesting trying a Paynes 6 frame with a 6 frame brood box on top as a cell raiser.


When I first tried Pasaga Ramic's cell starter last season I used a doubled up mini-plus so as to avoid wasting larger resources if it all went wrong. Worked very well although I did did keep the number of grafts low. Seem to remember Joe Latshaw writing (on Beesource) that he uses a Langstroth five frame nuc as a starter -he also gave figures re numbers and averages. I'll try to find a link later today (unless someone would like to do it for me in the meantime  :Smile:  ).

This wasn't my first attempt at using the m-p's as cell starters either -we've got a mini-plus cloake board in the shed from previous experiments!

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## Kate Atchley

> I wrote to them in my very best French with questions on delivery and the like, and heard nothing.... Wilara have even better deals and are responsive. [/COLOR]


Wilara is quoting lower prices, allowing for VAT/tax. Icko comes up with "Icko beekeeping". See if that activates Google's advert flooding.

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## Pete L

> Wilara have even better deals and are responsive.  But by the time I got in touch with them I was already negotiating with Abelo for the MiniPluses so have ordered other stuff from Wilara.  Bear in mind these prices get 21% tax added.


I found Icko responsive, and quick delivery, i wrote to them in English.

I know your looking for mini plus, but i just noted the price of swi-bines on the Wilara site out of interest, they are a lot more expensive per individual box price than Swienty. 
Wilara        £12.50 plus tax on top.
Swienty      £10.23 including tax, plus a further discount on quantity, and even more discount if ordering through beefarmers association, around £7.90.

Edit...even better, the Swienty ones can be bought without frames for £8.48, and then the same discounts on top, as above, taking them to just over £6 each

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## Kate Atchley

> ...we've got a mini-plus cloake board in the shed from previous experiments!


Was just wondering, this morning, about using a cloake board but the Amm are in Swienty polyhives. Anyone tried switching the floor for such an exercise? I've adapted one to save having to change the floor round to face the other way.

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## gavin

> I found Icko responsive, and quick delivery, i wrote to them in English.


Must be where I went wrong!

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## prakel

> [*]drone flooding  how many 'drone' frames (of whichever kind you recommend) per colony?


This is one which might deserve some further discussion. Back during the winter 'Duncan' who's a man who knows a bit about queen rearing posted a comment about limiting the number of drones per queen to maximize their vitality which really, when you think about it, is exactly what we do with our selected breeder queen (on the daughter line); keep her ticking over but not working to her maximum output.

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## Peter

[QUOTE=gavin;29758]> Not something that endears me to a retailer.

You can opt out:
http://www.youronlinechoices.com/uk/

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## Kate Atchley

> This is one which might deserve some further discussion. Back during the winter 'Duncan' who's a man who knows a bit about queen rearing posted a comment about limiting the number of drones per queen to maximize their vitality which really, when you think about it, is exactly what we do with our selected breeder queen (on the daughter line); keep her ticking over but not working to her maximum output.


Very interested in the "further discussion". 
Meanwhile I'd been inclined, before I put up the questions, to add super-depth wired (worker) foundation hoping the bees will create about half a brood-frame of extra brood beneath this, and graft from all 5 queens to keep the genetic spread. With only 5 Amm colonies this year (more coming later), this seemed a pragmatic way forward rather than select queens either for queens or for drones. What do you think?

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## Jon

Everyone worries about inbreeding but you will find that the problem is the opposite, drones from other subspecies somehow getting into the mix.
Finding an isolated spot and setting up as many drone colonies as possible in the area is probably the best strategy.
Re the number of drones per queen issue raised by Prakel, the key factor there is going to be nutrition. A colony with access to good forage including a wide range of pollens will sustain a healthy population including a large drone population. When times are hard the drones are the first to suffer.

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## mbc

Andrew on colonsay says inbreeding hasn't been a problem so far for his bees, and his are a very small and isolated population which has had more genetic scrutiny by top scientists than any others I know of, makes me think that inbreeding is only a problem with II or in extreme cases of low bases and isolation.
+1 for the mini pluses and overwintering, some of mine are at the point of needing extra space already, I intend to pop my new boxes on them next week and give them a feed to help draw the foundation, it will be a nice novelty doing the first round of queen rearing without taxing the production colonies for bees :Smile: 
're. Drone production, I'm a great believer in allowing colonies to maintain their own (hopefully optimum!) balance of bees so I don't add special drone foundation frames, but do allow space in a couple of frames in each hive for them to build freestyle and they usually build this out as drone comb at this time of year.

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## Jon

> Andrew on colonsay says inbreeding hasn't been a problem so far for his bees


And he only works around 60-80 colonies.

I also think that the risk of inbreeding is over hyped although it is not a good idea to keep losing variation from within the population.
Dropping in a frame between two drawn frames at the right time is a good way to get drone comb drawn.

 [ATTACH=CONFIG]2239[/ATTACH ] frame-natural drawn comb fishing line.jpg shallow with drone brood.jpg comb-fishing line.jpg

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## Kate Atchley

> Everyone worries about inbreeding but you will find that the problem is the opposite, drones from other subspecies somehow getting into the mix.
> Finding an isolated spot and setting up as many drone colonies as possible in the area is probably the best strategy.


The area is remote: no known honey bees within 10 miles or wild colonies (last beekeeper left 15 years ago) so hoping for pure mating may within the apiary stock. One queen was superseded last September and (using wing morphometry) mating seems to be true to type. So fingers crossed! In the short term, we'll have a restricted genetic mix but with more queens due this Summer from Colonsay and, we hope, some exchange of stock down the line with other breeders, the apiaries could be safe for the future.

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## Kate Atchley

Thanks mbc ... have been persuaded and will certainly try some MiniPlus nucs ... along with some frames left have-filled with foundation to encourage drone building/laying. 
Glad to hear your MPs are bursting with bees already. Weather sunny and warm this last week so buildup should speed up in that astonishing way it can in Spring if the weather is half decent.

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## Jon

> The area is remote: no known honey bees within 10 miles or wild colonies (last beekeeper left 15 years ago) so hoping for pure mating may within the apiary stock. One queen was superseded last September and (using wing morphometry) mating seems to be true to type.


Kate. Wing morphometry cannot tell you if a colony is Amm. It can only tell you if it isn't.
A colony with bees with a non Amm wing pattern is definitely not Amm but a colony with perfect wing patterns is not necessarily Amm.
Did you read the Moritz paper? It explains the fallacy and the selection artifact very well.

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## Kate Atchley

I haven't read the Moritz paper (have you a link or will I find it on SBAi? ). As the bees are from Colonsay and the wings show no sign that they are NOT Amm, or different from before, then then must have mated fairly pure. Jim McCulloch saw the plots and thought so but I accept that wing morphometry has its limitations. Which other tests are you using to verify?

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## Jon

Kate.
Third paper down on this list.
The others are worth reading as well if you are interested in bee breeding and genetics.

http://nihbs.org/honeybee-informatio...-bee-breeding/

Other than the physical look of the bees the way to go is DNA.
I have samples in with a student at LIT carrying out a genetic survey of Irish bees and I hope to get some results back shortly.
Wing morphometry has become engrained in Bibba culture but it really does tell you next to nothing about the genetic make up of your bees.

One you have used wing morphometry as a selection tool it invalidates the technique in subsequent generations as all you are doing is selecting for wing pattern. After a few generations of this all your samples will have a near perfect wing pattern irrespective of what you started with.
You are not selecting for the rest of the genetics so it is completely erroneous to conclude that a sample which has 90% of the wings in the Amm quadrant is definitely more Amm than a sample which has 60%
I have given up arguing with the bibba diehards as they are like alcoholics with the wing scanning. Just can't give it up even though it is not a useful process.

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## alclosier

Well written answer IMO. The DNA will not lie.

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## Kate Atchley

> Other than the physical look of the bees the way to go is DNA.


Thanks Jon ... great bedtime reading. Any suggestions for making DNA testing more accessible to breeding groups?

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## prakel

> [*]drone flooding  best to use frames filled with drone foundation or will wired foundation for supers fitted into brood frame do?
> [*]drone flooding  how many 'drone' frames (of whichever kind you recommend) per colony?


Some useful pdfs:


*Drone mother colonies -numbers and positioning
*
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...VepXrZP2qTcrKg

*Drone mother stock -selection and drone quality
*
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...1XPXlYvcTnDxrw

*Drone honey bees -rearing and maintenance
*
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...90237346,d.bGg

*Drone Saturation for small scale operations
*
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...NTiHEmhPjDGJBA

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## Kate Atchley

More bedtime reading ... indeed maybe no time to sleep! Thank you, those of you who are so generously educating me more fully. I really appreciate it.

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## gavin

Wonderful!  Thanks.  I especially like the last one by Larry Connor with its suggestion of using drone holding colonies made up with alternating drone and worker brood plus a caged virgin to keep their appetite for looking after the drones.  Similar to our discussion last autumn on the possibility of keeping drones in a mating apiary at the time when drones were being thrown out - I wonder if a queenless colony with a caged virgin might be useful then.

A big concern for many of us - though not, I hope, for Kate - is controlling Varroa in drone-raising colonies.  These are the ones likely to succumb, something that was not of concern for the Australian authors of course.

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## Adam

A question concerning the mini plus hives. Is there less absconding compared to smaller mini-nucs? (I assume so)//

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## prakel

> A question concerning the mini plus hives. Is there less absconding compared to smaller mini-nucs? (I assume so)//


Hi, my experience with ever increasing numbers (we're using about 40 mp sized boxes at present) over almost ten years has been that I can only really say that I've ever seen one attempt at absconding and that was with a badly composed family unit -due to beekeeper error and some general bad luck.

In our first season with them I had troubles with swarming but that was simply a case of them establishing and building up much quicker than I thought they would combined with a need for me to work away at the time. 

Overall, they make very nice stable colonies. Beekeeping in minature. As an off topic thought, I reckon that they'd make a  brilliant 'introduction to beekeeping' hive for a young child.

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## mbc

> Overall, they make very nice stable colonies. Beekeeping in minature. As an off topic thought, I reckon that they'd make a  brilliant 'introduction to beekeeping' hive for a young child.


I was thinking much the same thing last week while going through my mp hives and evaluating the brood, very pleasing liliputian beekeeping, they do seem to attract an awful lot of slugs and worms when placed on the ground though.

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## prakel

> they do seem to attract an awful lot of slugs and worms when placed on the ground though.


That's true. Did think that the principle could be transferred into a useful way of catching slugs in the veg plot...

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## gavin

*Now* you tell me!!

However many are destined to be lifted up on the specially designed stand, created by a talented collaborator.  The cross-bars are set apart the right distance so that two Apideas can straddle the bars on each side, sitting on the outer and middle of the three bars.  Or one mp each side.  Can't write that in capitals, other connotions.

These are indeed levelled with a spirit level (for the benefit of those mp top feeders), just that the land slopes.  Based on a sturdy 6' 3"x3" post.  We'll tell you later if the design lasted the season and if the local slugs didn't bother climbing the rough (and treated) timber posts.  As you can see sheep have found it already.



And if anyone is wondering whether we operate at the opposite extreme to Liliputian beekeeping, J is just normal size.  A good piece of that 6' post is underground.

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## Kate Atchley

Excellent! Brings the bees satellite TV too?

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## gavin

> Excellent! Brings the bees satellite TV too?


Ah, no.  If you'd seen part of the bigger array you may have realised we're setting them up to communicate with aliens ...



There are two very fine gentlemen in that photo.

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## fatshark

> There are two very fine gentlemen in that photo.


Just in case any readers assumed the array had already successfully attracted extraterrestrials ... 

Looks good Gavin. How exposed is that site? I usually tuck mini-nucs in sheltered positions - partly to avoid absconding and partly so the returning queen has something to orientate to and is less likely to get blown off course in the final approach.

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## prakel

Another drone article, in the current (April 2015) issue of the Kelly Beekeeping newsletter (#56), page 14.

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## gavin

> Looks good Gavin. How exposed is that site?


Not too exposed, I hope.  It is tucked behind a small ridge that should block the worst of the winds (but might create eddies).  Unlike last year, no trees shading the nucs.  I guess we'll find out about absconding soon enough.

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## Jon

They should really be in shade between about 11am and 5pm.
It might never get hot enough there to induce absconding but if you get any days where it gets much over 20c you will likely have problems.
In my experience the reasons you get absconding from a mini-nuc are:
1. overfilled
2. lack of shade
3. leaving the laying queen in too long without giving more space. Once the first brood is sealed if she has no more space to lay in they can abscond.

I rarely see absconding with mine now but those 3 points are fairly critical.
If you get a hot day and the apidea is in full sun you will definitely get absconding.
It may be less of a problem with the bigger mini plus but in an apidea there are just not enough bees in there to thermoregulate on a hot day.
A few years ago I tried Apideas in a shed with a tin roof and they always absconded when the sun got up and raised the temperature inside the shed.

This is the mating site at our queen rearing group.
Under the shade of a big lime tree and in tight against a north facing hedge.

apideas-minnowburn.jpg

These ones on the shelves face North East

apideas-for-overwintering.jpg

I am pretty sure Andrew Abrahams has his Apideas pushed in against the stone walls but that is as much to do with wind as with shade.

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## drumgerry

I feel a rip off of the above Gavin post design may be required.  Mine have been sitting on pallets hitherto.

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## Kate Atchley

> I feel a rip off of the above Gavin post design may be required.


 Another rip off coming from this direction? We've some good lightly-shaded spots for them Glenborrodale. Love Jon's sylvan scene!

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## Peter

[QUOTE=Jon;29833]They should really be in shade between about 11am and 5pm.
It might never get hot enough there to induce absconding but if you get any days where it gets much over 20c you will likely have problems.
In my experience the reasons you get absconding from a mini-nuc are:
1. overfilled
2. lack of shade
3. leaving the laying queen in too long without giving more space. Once the first brood is sealed if she has no more space to lay in they can abscond.

Agree with all that.  I found it helpful to cut out brood so that the bees build new comb for the queen to lay in.  It can be a matter of fine judgement as you obviously need to leave some to keep the nuc at the right strength.

The brood that I cut out was not wasted incidentally; I stood it on the crownboards (with eke or empty super around) of full sized colonies for it to hatch out.

This year I hope to put some Apideas under my ground-mounted solar panels.  The northern side of the array has bone dry soil that gets virtually no sun.

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## gavin

Mostly Jeff's design not Gavin's!  I'd have stopped at the two pairs of long bars fixed horizontally to the 3x3.

The site is on a generally NNE-facing slope in a small bowl and with a small ridge behind to the SSW (so giving more of a NNE aspect but not direct shade).  Yes, it may be too sunny, we'll see.  We'll have a mix of Apideas and mps there.  We shifted from a site which allowed us the shade of trees for the Apideas but the owner would prefer us on the new site where there is no such option without jumping a fence and careering down a steep slope.  

Jon, you had good success with Paynes boxes as mating nucs in the open sun.  Hoping that at least the mps will be fine.  

We exhausted the local supply of gold-coloured 50mm screws!  36 per post.

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## Jon

Those Paynes boxes got a bit of sun but that area where you saw them along the railway fence has bracken which grows up to about 6 foot in the summer so there is a bit of shade. The damson trees also provides a bit of light shade.

No kidding, shade is critical with Apideas or they will abscond on a hot day.
I remember Micheál Mac saying that he would always push them as far into the hedge as he could get them to keep the sun off them.
I haven't used the mini-plus so that might be a bit more resilient to overheating.
I do like the design of those posts which allow for a greater number of apideas per post.
The problem with pushing them into a hedge or tight to a wall is all the stooping you have to do which takes its toll on your back eventually.
I have a vague recollection of Neil S posting about setting out a load of Apideas in the sun and most of them absconded.

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## mbc

Beware moving lock stock to nucs on posts up high as they lose more bees to drifting(or attrition from losing wind blown bees) than those on the ground in my experience, I have mostly stopped putting them on posts.

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## Jon

> I found it helpful to cut out brood so that the bees build new comb for the queen to lay in.  It can be a matter of fine judgement as you obviously need to leave some to keep the nuc at the right strength.


I remove brood from full apideas and give it to any broodless apideas which have a virgin or a queen cell or have gone queenless.

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## gavin

Thanks guys, I can see that we need to think again to some extent.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> I am pretty sure Andrew Abrahams has his Apideas pushed in against the stone walls but that is as much to do with wind as with shade.


The ones I saw were perched on a fence (out of the rats' reach) - but there might have been some big trees throwing long afternoon shadows. I can't remember about that.
Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

> Beware moving lock stock to nucs on posts up high as they lose more bees to drifting(or attrition from losing wind blown bees) than those on the ground in my experience, I have mostly stopped putting them on posts.


On Colonsay, with its rats, Mr Back Bee has nucs up on benches about 3.5' off the ground with metal posts and wooden planks, and also soon fence posts. Some are in full sun ... most have shade part of the day. Breezy there most of the time!
IMG_3040.jpg

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## Kate Atchley

> When I first tried Pasaga Ramic's cell starter last season ...


Thanks Prakel , I found your Pasaga Ramic/Elgon links from last Summer (see Queen Raising 2014 thread 4.7.14). Keen to try this. Any tips on contents of lower (to start with) brood box assuming I use full sized Nationals. Maybe some stores with or without emerging brood either side of the grafts? Do you fully filled that box with frames of would say, 5 frames and some broad dummies, do the trick? Our Amm colonies will be modest in size.

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## prakel

> Thanks for the Pasaga Ramic/Elgon links Prakel. Keen to try this. Any tips on contents of lower (to start with) brood box. Maybe just some stores with or without emerging brood either side of the grafts? Do you fully filled that box with frames of would say, 5 frames and some broad dummies, do the trick? Our Amm colonies will be modest in size.


The key with the lower box is that the available sapace, whether it's full of comb or dummied down, is jam packed with bees so I see no reason why dummy boards can't be used if they help to exaggerate the crowding (I understand that J Kefuss uses a 5 frame box on top of an adapted Cloake board, so not a widely different principle).

Regarding brood, I feel that may actually be detrimental. The primary driver of this method is that once they're separated from the queen and the brood the field bees become very quick to start new cells -and they do it very well. Obviously the boxes need to be reversed pretty sharpish once the cells are struck so that the nurse bees can finish them. Slowness to reverse the boxes will take a toll on the quality of the resultant queens, of that I have no doubt.

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## Kate Atchley

Thanks Prakel. I love the simplicity of this method. Will let you know how it goes.

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## prakel

I should add that my preference is to add a frame of brood either side of the started cells once the boxes are rotated. easily achieved by switching combs between the two boxes or if you're using dummies I suppose that you could actually add extra combs from other hives.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks guys, I can see that we need to think again to some extent.


Just park a big roofing slate on the top of the apidea ?

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## gavin

> Just park a big roofing slate on the top of the apidea ?


Thanks DR.  That may help a little.  Being up in the air and drafty may also help in comparison to being on a hot slab or other structure.  And this is on a long N/NE facing slope which should help keep temperatures down.  We'll see ...

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## fatshark

> And this is on a long N/NE facing slope


  several thousand feet above sea level. 

They won't abscond  there's nowhere for them to go  :Wink:

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## Jon

I often wonder where they end up when they abscond. I suspect they just hang in a tree somewhere until they starve or freeze.
A big slate on the roof would certainly be a help in terms of providing some shade but it is making extra work lifting it on and off.
Once you have a lot of Apideas any wee thing which saves time on each inspection becomes important.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I often wonder where they end up when they abscond. I suspect they just hang in a tree somewhere until they starve or freeze.
> A big slate on the roof would certainly be a help in terms of providing some shade but it is making extra work lifting it on and off.
> Once you have a lot of Apideas any wee thing which saves time on each inspection becomes important.


Its a handy weight though and gives a bit of shade
As to where they go ? 
Once one of the ones in my garden I had been ignoring till it was totally overcrowded baled out and I can't be 100% certain but I think it went into the top box above a snelgrove board and took over (no adult opposition ?)
A sort of Royal coup
I was trying to follow them so I could catch the little blighters and thats where they appeared to go   :Smile:

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## Jon

I have had a queen fly from an Apidea and fly back into a nearby queenless full colony with queen cells which she then tore down.
Crafty bugger.
I have seen Apideas abscond a few times and the little cluster often ends up 30 foot up a tree but I don't know if they scout and move on somewhere else.
A lot of my queens mate over the apiary and the entire contents of the apidea tends to leave with the queen when she takes her flight.
Sometimes the queen settles and the bees cluster around her and they fail to make it back home.

I wrote a description here

This looks like absconding but is actually a mating flight gone wrong.
same result though.

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## Poly Hive

Have you got any Lyson kit yet Gavin? If not take a sample first. 

PH

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## gavin

It hasn't yet arrived.  However, as well as listening to folk on here I've handled the boxes at two different bee shows and like what I see.

Abelo in the UK supply them.  I swithered about getting them from Wilara in Lithuania but instead ordered queen cages and other sundries from them.  Easy to deal with, responsive, courier costs not too bad, low prices.

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## Beefever

Jon,  
Would the same thing happen if there was brood present in the Apidea and this being the second introduced virgin to mate from it?

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## Jon

Yep. They sometimes totally abscond leaving brood behind.
Re.the queen mating flights, that's a good question. I am pretty sure I have seen it happen when there has been brood present in the apidea from a previous incumbent but I will make sure I check that properly the next time I see it. I honestly can't remember.

----------


## Poly Hive

Mobus, Struan and myself all had their minis on the ground with a slab or a bit of corrugated iron to suppress weeds and also in shade mostly. Very few abscond in my experience but I suspect my colonies are a bit bigger in the units I was given by Bernard.

PH

----------


## Jon

Trouble with placing them on the ground is that you end up with a bad back. Been there done that.
There is very little absconding from apideas if they are managed right. Shade plus the correct amount of bees plus removal of the queen at the right time is the formula.

I have seen people using pallets with 4 or 5 to a pallet.
At my allotment apiary I am using old fence panels pushed into a hedge at a height of about 4 feet off the ground.
Gavin has a photo or two.

----------


## drumgerry

I've had mine mostly on pallets as Jon describes over the last few years and yep it's a killer on the back.  My problem is finding somewhere at home that's shady enough and that can accommodate sufficient numbers of them.  My latest brainwave is to maybe instal lots of wee platforms on the back and side of the wooden summerhouse but yet to run that one by the OH so may not happen!  Otherwise it'll be pallets and I'll have to thole the pain

----------


## prakel

> I've had mine mostly on pallets as Jon describes over the last few years and yep *it's a killer on the back*.


You could always try this approach:

----------


## prakel

> Have you got any Lyson kit yet Gavin? If not take a sample first. 
> 
> PH


PH, as you've written about your experience with Lyson kit (and mentioned getting some of their mini-plus boxes) in the past I wonder whether there's more to your recommendation to get a sample first than might immediately be apparent? Any hard earned advice you can pass on?

----------


## Poly Hive

As I say before jumping in the deep end I would suggest STRONGLY buying a small item to test. Personally "I hae ma doots"

PH

----------


## masterbk

9 apideas reduced file size.JPG
I put my apideas on pallets

----------


## mbc

> 9 apideas reduced file size.JPG
> I put my apideas on pallets


I chuck mine out three to a bread basket

----------


## prakel

> Personally "I hae ma doots"
> 
> PH


About what; service, quality, suitability or beekeeper ability? Lets narrow it down a little.

----------


## mbc

> About what; service, quality, suitability or beekeeper ability? Lets narrow it down a little.


I have done quite a bit of business with abelo and have had no issues with any of these.

----------


## prakel

Overwintered mini-plus =resources for splitting into mating nucs without touching the full size colonies. 

029.jpg036.jpg003.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

If your mininucs are on the ground just pick them up and put them on something higher while you look through them

----------


## Kate Atchley

Lyson MiniPlus nucs arrived from Abelo. What sturdy pieces of kit they are. Eager to try them but snow on hills again and 2.5 degrees most of yesterday!! Ugh. 

Prakel or others who use these, *what volume of bees* do you charge them with? Each side is considerably larger than an Apidea. Maybe I'll just do it proportionally by volume based on 250ml for Apideas?

Do you *cut round holes* in the top of pairs of frames for ease of adding queen cells drawn from Q rearing cups on plastic bases? Or have you another method for introducing the Q cells?

----------


## mbc

I use roughly the same number of bees as I would for a kieler mini nuc for charging these(a touch more than for an apidea),if you look at the footprint of half a mini plus it is a smallish narrow area, it doesn't need too many bees to populate.
For introducing cells, I tend to sandwich them between two frames and slide the pair of frames back in, easier with drawn comb than foundation, your solution with a cut out from the top bars sounds as good as anything.
Good luck and enjoy.

----------


## prakel

It'll be interesting to hear what others are doing. 

Personally, I'm not the kind of beekeeper that measures bees in ml...I know that I should be, but I'm not! After a couple of decades boning road bases and pipelines I have a natural confidence in my ability to visually assess quantities (old road builder saying: "get it wrong in the base it'll cost in the top"), it's for this reason that I found that shaking bees did the job just fine for me. The ideal is to shake them into a roof and then 'pour' the required quantity into the box but I can't tell you what that quantity is as I've never measured it...perhaps I should as this isn't the first time, on this forum, that I've been asked!

Of course, ideas change over the years and if I was starting mp boxes from scratch today I'd possibly stack a couple together and stock them with a small shaken swarm and take drawn combs and brood to start the others. Another method which I have used, a lot, in more recent years is to build standard nuc boxes approx 11 inch wide and then add boxes with the same footprint to take the mp frames on top. A strong nuc pulls the little frames very quickly. It's extra, 'special' kit but very useful and cost effective.

Adding the cells. When I run the Lysons as twin units I find (once the combs are drawn) the best way is to place the cell on the face of the comb and if need be to pin it in place with a small strip of the epoxy coated mesh which Thornes and the like sell; bent into a u-shape. This isn't a cell protector, just an extra surety against the cell being dislodged. 

With new frames/foundation you'll obviously need to use the top bars as an anchor. When we first got our mp boxes they were issued with the old style wood/plastic frames which had relatively narrow top bars so maybe less of a problem than the new wooden frames which I believe are standard now.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> It'll be interesting to hear what others are doing. 
> .... if I was starting mp boxes from scratch today I'd possibly stack a couple together and stock them with a small shaken swarm and take drawn combs and brood to start the others. Another method which I have used, a lot, in more recent years is to build standard nuc boxes approx 11 inch wide and then add boxes with the same footprint to take the mp frames on top. A strong nuc pulls the little frames very quickly. It's extra, 'special' kit but very useful and cost effective.


Thanks mpc and Prakel. I like the idea of stacking them and having a small colony draw the comb ... will be onto that when I can. No swarms in sight but I have a smallish overwintered nuc colony which might do the job. Would also like to try the nuc method you mention Prakel. Presumably that could also be a way to reintroduce bees to larger units if mps are not going to go through the winter. 

Meanwhile I'll drill those top bars in case I need to introduce Q cells with only foundation in the frames. They're wooden so that should be easy.

----------


## gavin

> What sturdy pieces of kit they are.


They are, aren't they?  Got my van-load of them yesterday  :Smile: 

Watching this discussion with great interest.  That charging of them with shaken bees and without an obvious means of support for the first Q cell before comb is drawn is a good point, but Kate has the solution.

You just need to knick off a smidgen (1-2mm) from each frame edge in the middle to get a white cup to sit between the top bars without falling to the floor.  Here is one sitting down and the other unable to - without any cutting.  That would be better than cutting a more central hole that will block as they build comb.  I will probably just file it, standardising the location so that it still works when frames get swapped around between boxes. Or just do that to every frame?



Next question (in my mind): no cover or a polythene cover, as I believe mbc uses, folded back or cut short as necessary to permit access to the feeder?  Maybe I'll try with and without.

----------


## prakel

> Would also like to try the nuc method you mention Prakel. Presumably that could also be a way to reintroduce bees to larger units if mps are not going to go through the winter.


Yes, many benefits to those nuc length boxes.

Drawing comb.

Furnishing brood combs to either kick-start a unit with a cell or as a method of supporting mps where the queen has gone astray/not mated correctly.

Producing store combs.

As you say, returning the bees to full size frames.

We've also used exactly the same system with some much smaller units which one of my nephew's designed.

----------


## fatshark

> They are, aren't they?  Got my van-load of them yesterday


Do they arrive ready painted? What a result if so. Or is this an optional extra that I'm usually too mean to pay for and then regret when faced with a dazzling wall of white poly .... ?

----------


## gavin

> Do they arrive ready painted? What a result if so. Or is this an optional extra that I'm usually too mean to pay for and then regret when faced with a dazzling wall of white poly .... ?


They do indeed come painted.  You can choose between sky blue, green or yellow - or a mix of the above (I mean a mix of single colours in a job lot of MiniNucs not some sort of yucky brown!).  I was wondering whether the frames would come ready-wired but it seems not.  I thought I saw a picture on the Lithuanian site that implied theirs might come wired and waxed, but that may have been wishful thinking.  At least the holes are drilled to make wiring easier.  I really ought to order wire but being active in a national and a local beekeeping association fair soaks up the time ...

G.

----------


## gavin

> You just need to knick off a smidgen (1-2mm) from each frame edge in the middle to get a white cup to sit between the top bars without falling to the floor.


On second thoughts, an extra smidgen (2-3mm?) would allow the frames to be pushed together with a gap at the box ends, stopping propolising of space between the sidebars.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> On second thoughts, an extra smidgen (2-3mm?) would allow the frames to be pushed together with a gap at the box ends, stopping propolising of space between the sidebars.


I think I'll cut circles with my splendid new circular drills ... to keep the frame spacing right and allow the plastic cup holders to bed down to their "shoulders". 

Gavin I can't imagine they need wiring in the frames as there are bottom bars and quite small so they're not going to become very heavy. Have others found wiring necessary (or "neck scary"as my spell check preferred!)?

Re inner covers ... I think I asked Prakel who said some use plastic which can be peeled back but that he had never found a problem with the bees from either side mixing/having access to each other and their respective queens.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Here's one of the MP mating nucs drilled to receive Q cell cups. I'll use the divider but drilled all the frames. Will get them lined up next time! IMG_0174.jpg

BUT tell me, please, about filling these nucs with bees and adding queen cells. I usually add bees, leave them closed up for 24 hours or at least overnight, and then add the queen cells. But I have been using Apideas with their inner covers and extra flap over the cell hole. If I do the same with the MP nucs, bees are going to pour up and out the moment I open the nuc. Is the answer to add bees and queen cell at the same time (they'll be from different colonies at present 45 mins drive from each other)? Does that not increase the risk of non-acceptance of the cell/queen? Or is it better to create inner covers and a flap over a drilled hole for adding the Q cell?

I've also heard it can be done in the dark with a red light (infra red or just red?) which does not activate the bees. Anyone tried that?

How much easier all this will be if the nucs are kept charged with bees and comb drawn. Will aim for that next year.

Kate

----------


## Jon

The thing about cells getting rejected is a myth repeated everywhere. Cells get torn down by virgin queens but they don't get torn down by queenless workers. I wonder where that started and why it get copied from book to book. Just fill with bees and add the cell after 15 minutes.
The cells don't need any tinfoil protection either.
For that type of unit it would be easier to let the virgin emerge in a roller and then add the bees at the same time.
Put the virgin in then drop a scoop of wet bees on top of her. keep closed for 24 hours and open at the mating site the following evening.

With my apideas I aim to get 3 mated queens per unit. (but it is always a bit less!)
The first one I add as a virgin as described above.
Once she is mated I let her lay in the apidea for about 10 days to check that the brood is normal.
I then remove her and add a queen cell immediately.

If you want to add a cell at the start 15 minutes is enough. They don't have to be left overnight.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Jon thank you. You've sorted it for me! Will try the virgins and the cells and see which wins!
Kate

----------


## Jon

I have filled about 80 apideas so far this season using a virgin queen and wet bees. Very few have mated so far due to poor weather, maybe 7 or 8,  but any I have checked, the virgin is still there.
Virgin for the first queen and then queen cell for every subsequent one is my strategy.
I put the queen cells in the incubator about 2-3 days before emergence.

octagon-incubator-small-pic.jpg

This week is looking good around midweek and I should get a lot more queens mated.

http://www.forecast.co.uk/belfast.html

----------


## prakel

> Here's one of the MP mating nucs drilled to receive Q cell cups. I'll use the divider but drilled all the frames. Will get them lined up next time! IMG_0174.jpg
> 
> .............Or is it better to create inner covers and a flap over a drilled hole for adding the Q cell?


That's what I'd do. After taking the time to drill those top bars it seems silly not to make use of them.




> I've also heard it can be done in the dark with a red light (infra red or just red?) which does not activate the bees. Anyone tried that?


Not personally, but I remember that John Laidler(sp?) aka Rooftops used to write about using the method sucsessfully on beekeeping-forum. 




> How much easier all this will be if the nucs are kept charged with bees and comb drawn. Will aim for that next year.


Life becomes simpler for sure  :Smile: .

----------


## fatshark

The red light trick works extremely well. I use an Ever Ready (I think) head torch with a couple of red LEDs. You can gently open the box in the dark and the bees just amble around on the frames. The only problem I ever had was a bee falling from the crownboard (a bit of plastic sheet in my Kielers) into my sockless boot. Ouch.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Thanks Prakel. Very helpful. The weather has been so dreadful up here that I'm just starting the Q rearing. Off in the morning to set up a hive to drain field bees into the lower box, as per Pasago Ramic!

Fatshark ... excellent. Look out for news headlines: Moidart red light district!

Kate

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## prakel

> The thing about cells getting rejected is a myth repeated everywhere. Cells get torn down by virgin queens but they don't get torn down by queenless workers.


Myth or not, my experience has been that given the opportunity, bees will do what _they_ want to do. No 100% rules in my experience  :Smile: .

----------


## Jon

Very little in beekeeping is guaranteed 100% but cells being torn down is something I just don't see unless there is a virgin queen at large.
If I was having cells torn down, even 5%, I would protect them.

----------


## gavin

Red light district in Moidart!  :EEK!: 

My first foray into using MiniPluses was with the approach Jon has been using, wet bees thrown on top of a hatched virgin.  Today may be a good day for mating for them given that the wind has finally gone.  I didn't use any cover and now realise the difficulty of keeping bees out of the way.  Visiting assorted apiaries in the dark with a head torch doesn't appeal, largely because we're now at the time of year with hardly any dark.  

So I've been thinking about transparent covers and cell introduction.  Two comments:

i) when you push the frames apart there is just the right gap for the white Nicot cell holder without any tampering with the frames.  As the cell is only going to be there for a few days, closing up the frames after removing the cell shouldn't be a problem.  

ii) the new design Paynes boxes work very well with a transparent plastic cover.  It is a simple matter to brush extra bees out of the way before replacing the cover and those bees just fly back in the entrance.  Should work just as well with the Miniplus.

I had considered getting costings for a local company to cut thin perspex sheets the right size for the top of the MiniPluses, but someone (forget who) on the Beekeeping Forum recently mentioned laminator pouches.  A4 would be big enough for each half of the MiniPlus top and 100 A4 pouches plus a laminator (from Tesco) amount to less than £20 with perhaps £15 for a guillotine.  Seems like the way to go.  It should be possible to cut an Apidea style hole and make a flap from offcuts if that's the way you want to go.

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## Kate Atchley

> It should be possible to cut an Apidea style hole and make a flap from offcuts if that's the way you want to go.


Yes, I think I'll made covers. I did so for all my Paynes nucs before they were supplied with them ... can buy sheets of polypropylene cheaply and cut with Stanley knife or scissors.

But, we'll need to allow the bees to move up to the feeders of the MPs ... so another variation on the Apidea model.

Sunshine at last and off to the apiary!

Kate

----------


## gavin

> But, we'll need to allow the bees to move up to the feeders of the MPs ...


Doh! Of course!  :Embarrassment:  Senior moment there ....

Just a slot matching up with the feeder channel.  Do you have a supplier for thin polypropylene?

----------


## prakel

> Very little in beekeeping is guaranteed 100% but cells being torn down is something I just don't see unless there is a virgin queen at large.
> If I was having cells torn down, even 5%, I would protect them.


Definitely seen it myself, rarely but it happens. Not a sufficient problem to warrant using cell protectors -one of my more wacky ideas (yes, I have a lot of them) is that there may be some benefit to the bees if not the queen herself if they have access to the cell....not quite sure how or why, but it becomes quite obviously after a while that some cells appear to get far more attention than others.

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## Kate Atchley

> Do you have a supplier for thin polypropylene?


You could try http://www.theplasticpeople.co.uk though they have recently introduced a minimum order value. Also various offers on Amazon and eBay. Thickness of 2mm will do, or 3mm.
Kate

----------


## fatshark

Re. covers … your laminator pouches sound a bit pricey unless I'm missing something. I've used thick clear (ish) plastic on all my Kielers with a "three sides of a square cut" flap for cell introduction. Works very well. You can buy tennis court-sized sheets of thick plastic for just a few quid if you can't find any from a new sofa (which is where my last lot was scrounged from). I'm using damp proof membrane on some poly nucs at the moment. There's something about the surface of DPM that stops propolis and wax sticking very well. Works a treat.

Re. cell protectors … I don't use them and I'd not use any QC that fitted in one of those silly little orange things from JzBz. It might - just - accommodate a scrub queen cell, but anything that's received serious attention from workers in the cell raiser simply won't fit. Sometimes they don't even fit into the Cupkit cage thingy.

----------


## mbc

> Definitely seen it myself, rarely but it happens.


 +1

I twist a little pre cut electricians insulation tape round each cell before popping them into my insulated cell travelling box.
I am aware this is mostly a waste of time, but it takes so little effort or expense I feel it's worth it for those few cells it saves, not for the value of the cell as such, but saving the inconvenience of finding mini nucs lacking virgins and getting out of sync with their group.

For mini crown boards, fertilizer sacks or dpm as *Prakel* suggested, is hard to beat. I have two for each mp box, one stapled to the central divider and another to use when the dividers out, I also have a little dummy board for each to stop the frames getting too fat when used as a single unit, a little cut out lined up with the feeder slots works well.
Sorry, as *fatshark* suggested.

----------


## Jon

MBC. Do you ever get cells torn down by workers in queenless apideas on introduction?
The very odd time I have seen a cell torn down and it is not due to a stray virgin it is in an apidea which has brood and a means of making its own queen.

----------


## mbc

> MBC. Do you ever get cells torn down by workers in queenless apideas on introduction?
> The very odd time I have seen a cell torn down and it is not due to a stray virgin it is in an apidea which has brood and a means of making its own queen.


I cannot honestly recall.
Most of my mp boxes have the means of making an emergency cell when a qc is added, I only really use apideas as a handy way of harvesting "wild" virgins as I do my rounds, as they're so small a few boxes can be crammed into odd corners of the truck without getting in the way.

----------


## busybeephilip

> MBC. Do you ever get cells torn down by workers in queenless apideas on introduction?
> The very odd time I have seen a cell torn down and it is not due to a stray virgin it is in an apidea which has brood and a means of making its own queen.


just a thought but maybe its laying workers or workers on there way to being laying workers ?

----------


## prakel

My experience has invariably been tied to spells of particularly bad weather at the time of introducing the cells. The odd one pulled down by bees procured at exactly the same time, from the same source hive as those used to make up the rest of the batch (which haven't taken out their cells). 

Maybe there's a tie-back to my thoughts regarding giving workers access to the cells; perhaps those cells which I've seen torn down would have produced queens that would have either vanished before successful mating or would have been early for supercedure. 

I really wish I knew more about bees, it might make things more certain.

----------


## Jon

> I really wish I knew more about bees, it might make things more certain.


Amazing there is still so much to find out about bee behaviour when bees have been so extensively studied for such a long time.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I really wish I knew more about bees, it might make things more certain.


... and yet is it not the very uncertainty, the complexity of the bees' behaviours, that keeps us fascinated? We seek to understand and learn as the uncertainty keeps reasserting itself! Not sure I'd want it otherwise.

----------


## prakel

> ... and yet is it not the very uncertainty, the complexity of the bees' behaviours, that keeps us fascinated? We seek to understand and learn as the uncertainty keeps reasserting itself! Not sure I'd want it otherwise.


You're right of course!

----------


## Kate Atchley

Finally we posted some queens from the Ardnamurchan Native Black Bee Project this week. I hear they all arrived safely the next day and went into nucs straight away. 

Here's me putting queen and attendants into their cage for posting ... forgot to put up my veil in my excitement:

----------


## prakel

Nice video(s) and, quite possibly the best running commentary that I've ever heard on a beekeeping film. No whispering, lecturing or inconprehensible waffle. Totally refreshing. I hope that you'll be posting more.

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## Kate Atchley

> Nice video(s) and, quite possibly the best running commentary that I've ever heard on a beekeeping film. No whispering, lecturing or inconprehensible waffle. Totally refreshing. I hope that you'll be posting more.


So glad you liked it Prakel but it's all thanks to the very enthusiastic friend who was with me, with her iPad and questions and eager watching/listening. She took more film but each of the others need some editing to cut out boring bits. Would then be happy to upload them.

Can anyone guide me on editing videos in iMovie?

----------


## gavin

Cracking video :-)

.... wish I knew more about editing videos myself.

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## The Drone Ranger

> just a thought but maybe its laying workers or workers on there way to being laying workers ?


I have a Keiler with laying workers so a chance to experiment 
I took one of their empty combs and grafted a few larva along the bottom cells on it yesterday
It won't work but its a learning opportunity

Liked Kate's Video 

I waited 27 days for laying in another mini nuc keiler and she is finally laying
That's laying yesterday the first frame of eggs and timed from checking the queen cell had hatched
I hope I am not being too negative about more queen rearing this season
It's just if you add 27 days to the 15 from using a cupkit cassette or 12 from grafting its the biblical 40 days and 40 nights
Ok for a backup queen in case of failure but not perhaps for replacing older queens before Winter
Better Weather might change all that and knock 10 days off the time

----------


## prakel

> Ok for a backup queen in case of failure but not perhaps for replacing older queens before Winter
> Better Weather might change all that and knock 10 days off the time


We'll push on for another couple of batches in the confident knowledge that, locally, late August/September usually gives us some really good matings. On the otherhand, our eperiment of starting early (mid April) this year was a failure both in poor matings during May despite a very large drone population and reasonable weather and in the damage it did to the over wintered mating nucs which could have been allowed to keep their queens for an extra three or four weeks if I'd followed our usual practice of not starting tilll May.

Just shows that with bees it doesn't always pay to listen to the experts. Better to do what 'feels' right, a lot of the time.

Next year we're back to a May start.

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## prakel

> Here's me putting queen and attendants into their cage for posting ...


After today's practice session, as a result of watching one of Kate's videos, I may well be on the road to conversion from a 'thorax holder' to 'leg lock specialist'.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Managed to get some keilers made up today 
IMGP0917.jpg
This virgin was going into one where the laying queen was taken out yesterday
the cage is a bit unnecessary but they will eat the candy in a day and she will be out
IMGP0894.jpg
There were 18 on the cell bar
13 new keilers were made up plus the one in the pic makes 14
3 cut the lid on the cell and just croaked
One flew away as usual grrrrrrrrr...

----------


## drumgerry

I'm a bit late catching up here but just wanted to say to Kate that I enjoyed your video.  You were a model of calmness and your bee wrangling skills are to be admired.  I was putting a few queens into the same JzBz introduction/traveling cages this afternoon and one of the buggers ended up dropped in the grass!  Luckily I found her but good job there was no filming going on at the time to make me look a right pillock!

----------


## Kate Atchley

Thanks drumgerry. Queen rearing for others is mostly new to me so it's all beginner's luck, I'm sure. And we were enjoying that non-rainy day!

----------


## drumgerry

You're being too modest Kate!  I've been at it a good few years now and I can still drop a queen in the grass.

I hear you about the weather....we're promised sun and 21C tomorrow so I'm hoping to get a fair bit of bee work done!

----------


## Peter

I would be interested to know how long everyone leaves a nuc queenless before introducing a cell.

I made up mating nucs by de-queening and then splitting nucleus colonies, so some had flying bees and some not.  Introduced 13 protected (hair roller) cells 2 days later, but in 6 of the 13 the bees destroyed the ripe cell (and the virgin) and built their own Q cells.  Never had this happen before.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I made up mating nucs by de-queening and then splitting nucleus colonies, so some had flying bees and some not.  Introduced 13 protected (hair roller) cells 2 days later, but in 6 of the 13 the bees destroyed the ripe cell (and the virgin) and built their own Q cells.  Never had this happen before.


Oooo, very tricky action by the bees. 

Before opening the flap on queen cages from Colonsay yesterday, I remembered that the nucs they had been put into on arrival had been made up 2 days in advance. So I checked for Q cells. Sure enough there were fine cells in all of them ... now squished. Do hope the queens will be accepted okay. 

But if cells are already started before a Q emerges from her cell, would that spell her demise?

----------


## Jon

If I take a queen from an apidea and put a cell in immediately there is usually no problem.
If I wait a day or two they will have started a cell of their own from a larva and they may opt for this one as opposed to the introduced cell.
If I don't have a cell to introduce immediately I always check and remove any started cells when I introduce a grafted cell a few days later.
When you remove a queen you have 12 days to get a new cell in before any queen can emerge from something they concoct themselves.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I would be interested to know how long everyone leaves a nuc queenless before introducing a cell.
> 
> I made up mating nucs by de-queening and then splitting nucleus colonies, so some had flying bees and some not.  Introduced 13 protected (hair roller) cells 2 days later, but in 6 of the 13 the bees destroyed the ripe cell (and the virgin) and built their own Q cells.  Never had this happen before.


Hi Peter nice to see you posting regularly again
Do you think the ones with flying bees are more likely to take executive action when presented with a foreign cell
I maintain that when you re-queen grumpy bees they often just bide their time and bump her off then raise one of their choosing (usually another ill tempered brute )

----------


## prakel

> I maintain that when you re-queen grumpy bees they often just bide their time and bump her off then raise one of their choosing (usually another ill tempered brute )


I'm of a similar oppinion although I don't even think that they need to be outwardlly grumpy to do so. Cells _will_ be taken down if for any reason they doubt them but if they can't gain access to them they'll just sit back and wait until the resultant queen goes missing on an alledged mating flight. 

I'm also dubious as to whether the majority of cell protectors are actually beneficial. Another of my wild theories, but I'm fairly sure that it's better for the bees to have direct access to the cell -you can always tell a good 'ne if you look back a few minutes after introduction; the recipients will be all over it, in a friendly way. What if they pull an unprotected cell down? I've come to the conclusion that it's for the best and simply saves time in the long run.

----------


## Peter

> When you remove a queen you have 12 days to get a new cell in before any queen can emerge from something they concoct themselves.


If they use a 2 day old larvae then I think that you can only count on 10 days (3+2+10=15).  But if you leave it that long then it is probably best that they build their Q cell; any Q that emerges can be removed.

----------


## Peter

That should have been larva of course!

----------


## Jon

If they use a 2 day larva it would be nearer 11 rather than 12 but they are unlikely to use a 2 day larva if they have younger larvae available.
I find when I remove a queen they often don't start a cell for a couple of days especially if there are some eggs present and there usually are.
If I have removed a mated queen and I don't have cells available immediately I just let them work away then I nip the cell(s) in the apidea whenever I insert the grafted one. They rarely make more than 2 cells.
I prefer to insert the cell immediately or after a week when there are no more suitable aged larvae left. If you insert a new cell after 3 or 4 days you have to remove any cells they have started and there is still a chance that they will start another in preference to the cell you insert.

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## The Drone Ranger

Here's a little experiment I tried out 
It's just a bit of fun really because I don't have a cloake board or know how to use one anyway
So I used a cardboard substitute lol!

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## The Drone Ranger

I think I should delete my last post I seem to have killed this thread  :Smile:

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## prakel

> I think I should delete my last post I seem to have killed this thread


You can also use a couple of sheets of newspaper with a few pin holes at the edges of the nest (offset between sheets) under a framed excluder.

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## gavin

> You can also use a couple of sheets of newspaper with a few pin holes at the edges of the nest (offset between sheets) under a framed excluder.


What, for killing SBAi threads?!  You guys are so inventive ....   :Wink: 

Great to see the video DL.  Can you also make Snelgrove boards from cardboard? A step up in recycleability from Jon's correx efforts.

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## The Drone Ranger

> What, for killing SBAi threads?!  You guys are so inventive ....  
> 
> Great to see the video DL.  Can you also make Snelgrove boards from cardboard? A step up in recycleability from Jon's correx efforts.


Lol! not much chance of that

I thought somebody might put up a clip up of a cloake board being inserted
I would like to see how it's really done  :Smile:

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## prakel

100.jpg 035.jpg 073.jpg 028.jpg

the mating nucs which are waiting on queens to start laying are rapidly becoming nectarized but it's great for getting new combs drawn and stores laid down -these OSB3 boxes go through winter quite well here, the deeper (than mini-plus) frames allow the bees to organize themselves really well for the months ahead.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...the deeper (than mini-plus) frames allow the bees to organize themselves really well for the months ahead.


Are they half National brood frames, Prakel?  Sorry if I'm asking you to repeat information if you've already told us.

Kitta

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## prakel

MC, they're based on the mini plus frame -same 10" top bar but are three inches deeper. We chose the top bar length so that we could maintain some level of compatibility with our existing mp kit. The mp combs tend to get get laid out to the top bar by a young queen while these deeper ones usually have an inch of honey at the top. The original idea came after needing to feed mp's in an August dearth a few years ago (that inch of honey makes a lot of difference). A knock on benefit has been that they've proven excellent for wintering on a single box too (remembering that they're only OSB3 with a slab of kingspan on top instead of a fancy roof).

edit:

142.jpg

example of the poly roofs (these are bs nucs).

015.jpg

OSB3 box, mid March. Showing mini-plus frames mixed with our deeper ones; we just let them build comb from the bottom bars of the shorter frames. Only five frames for winter, summer we can fit 6 to a box, it's slightly tight but keeps the combs nice. This time of year when the last ones are being started we reduce to 5 so that the honey arc can be built out. Again, good for wintering but I'm giving far too much away now!

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks prakel - interesting - also your aquatic beekeeping! 
Kitta

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## prakel

> also your aquatic beekeeping!


That site is presently being quarried out (they do say that the locals love their island so much that they can't stop sending bits of it around the world!). We've now set up a site a couple of hundred yards away -much nicer actually.

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## The Drone Ranger

Damp can contribute to chalk brood I am told  :Smile: 
they look like very decorative stepping stones

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## Greengage

Thats are really interesting site Icko. tks

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## The Drone Ranger

It is Greengage especially if you click on French Flag  at the top That gets the info in French 
then choose the UK flag  only to get a cut down version of the French presumably meant to be a translation
The Rossetta Stone would be handy

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## SDM

> Thats are really interesting site Icko. tks


What site is this ? French is my fav. language. I'll tell you if there's any difference.

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## Kate Atchley

Catching up with our Amm rearing in Ardnamurchan: the new queens from Colonsay are all laying and/so I didn't miss any Q cells started in the nucs which were made up 2 days ahead! AND we finally have a good crop of queen cells after grafting and copious feeding of two queenless colonies. Seems I hadn't been feeding enough earlier, with the bees almost "running on empty" this year.

NOW the cells are incubating but 1/3 of them were cut out of brace comb built between them. I was careful not to cut too close so the pupae are fully covered with wax but the cells are not well finished in the usual way ... thin in places. Are they likely to be okay or damaged by their earlier entombment in wax?

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## Jon

They should be ok Kate. The bees often build brace comb around the cells in the cell bar. I cut away as much as I can then push the roller carefully over the cell. The cells look rough but the queen usually emerges in the normal way.

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## prakel

> we finally have a good crop of queen cells after grafting and copious feeding of two queenless colonies. Seems I hadn't been feeding enough earlier, with the bees almost "running on empty" this year.
> 
> NOW the cells are incubating but 1/3 of them were cut out of brace comb built between them. I was careful not to cut too close so the pupae are fully covered with wax but the cells are not well finished in the usual way ...* thin in places*. Are they likely to be okay or damaged by their earlier entombment in wax?


A knock-on from the feeding perhaps? It's a fine balance. Sometimes see cells which look like they could be better when they're built during a heavy flow. Seems counterintuitive but it happens. Why? Maybe (speculation here) the cell building workforce are busy elsewhere and the job gets passed to others who perhaps are in too much of a rush?

Dr Jurica suggested adding a shaker jar as part of rearing yard gear and just sprinkling some syrup over the topbars each time the cell builder/finisher is opened. Pellett recommended much the same thing: 




> About ten or twelve hours later the bees will be in the mood to build queen cells. Being without brood, the nurse bees will be abundantly supplied with food for the larvae, and will accept a batch of prepared cells very eagerly. 
> 
> When giving the cells, it is well to follow the practice of some of the most extensive breeders and feed liberally at the moment, to insure a larger portion of cells accepted. For this purpose an ordinary garden sprinkler serves very well. Thin sugar syrup is sprinkled freely over the tops of the frames as described previously. The bees gorge themselves in cleaning up the syrup and anxiously seek larvae to be fed. This method of feeding is desirable at the time of giving cells by any method. 
> 
> _Pellett. 'Practical Queen Rearing' 1918._


As Jon says, will probably come good.

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## The Drone Ranger

> What site is this ? French is my fav. language. I'll tell you if there's any difference.


http://www.icko-apiculture.com/en/ca...sult/?q=oxalic

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## The Drone Ranger

> A knock-on from the feeding perhaps? It's a fine balance. Sometimes see cells which look like they could be better when they're built during a heavy flow. Seems counterintuitive but it happens. Why? Maybe (speculation here) the cell building workforce are busy elsewhere and the job gets passed to others who perhaps are in too much of a rush?
> 
> Dr Jurica suggested adding a shaker jar as part of rearing yard gear and just sprinkling some syrup over the topbars each time the cell builder/finisher is opened. Pellett recommended much the same thing: 
> 
> 
> 
> As Jon says, will probably come good.


Hi Prakel
The feeding is probably just over the cell bar
I find its best to give young wax makers something to keep them busy
So another nearby frame with 3 strands of 60lb fishing line where they can build free comb
It's a good sign to have bees in a wax making frame of mind, I think, when raising cells but it can result in cells from Zorg syndrome  :Smile: 
Thanks for the Pellet tip

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## Kate Atchley

Thanks for speedy responses ... encouraging ones too! Off to fill mating nucs this afternoon.

Yes, there was a slow feeder right above the cell bars. Best to put it to one side perhaps, and will add a frame-to-be-drawn too next time. I fed the two colonies the same way but only one surrounded cells in wax ... the stronger one.

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## prakel

Another quote, not really specific to the current posts but it ties in quite well as an extra:




> Colonies will not rear queens with large thoraxes and long abdomens during a major honey flow. The bees seem rto go crazy and only want to collect nectar. If this is the case, move the cell-building colony 10 to 20 feet and place a dummy in it's place with a frame of brood, a queen and empty combs. If the honey flowlasts a long time you may have to repeat the procedure every ten days to 2 weeks.
> 
> *Steve Taber: 'Breeding Super Bees' 1987*

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## SDM

For anyone considering a last run of grafts. My forecast for September is looking very favourable a good 20 days with very little wind, <5kts and lots of sunshine. It looks set to be the best weather this season.

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## prakel

> For anyone considering a last run of grafts. My forecast for September is looking very favourable a good 20 days with very little wind, <5kts and lots of sunshine. It looks set to be the best weather this season.


It's normally a very good month for getting queens done, here too. Of course, the important thing is to know what to do with them....

After making sure that they mate from a robust environment to begin with I try to rear extra resources for adding to their colonies once they're mated. But no doubt a lot of people will do it the other way and introduce the young queen to a larger unit.

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## Jon

And there will be demand for queens in September once a load disappear during MAQS treatment!

I have had a lot of queens mate and start to lay in the past week. I intend to graft for another couple of weeks. Nothing ventured and all that....

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## prakel

> I have had a lot of queens mate and start to lay in the past week. I intend to graft for another couple of weeks. Nothing ventured and all that....


We're having our best results of the season at present -at least, with regards to commencement of laying after emergence. We discussed this earlier in the season, at present I'm seeing an average of ten days (from mini-plus and 4comb bs deeps alike) with the quickest being no more than eight days. Only time will tell if the matings are a true success.

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## The Drone Ranger

> And there will be demand for queens in September once a load disappear during MAQS treatment!
> 
> I have had a lot of queens mate and start to lay in the past week. I intend to graft for another couple of weeks. Nothing ventured and all that....


Or ones that haven't 👎but just stopped laying for a while 🙊

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## Kate Atchley

> They should be ok Kate. The bees often build brace comb around the cells in the cell bar. I cut away as much as I can then push the roller carefully over the cell. The cells look rough but the queen usually emerges in the normal way.


Jon you were right ... they're fine! (Jon was answering my query re cells surrounded in brace comb ...  would they be okay?)

Yesterday some of these cells went into mating nucs with lots of dark pigment showing through the thin parts of the cell covering (the cells were apparently embedded in comb before they were fully covered with wax so it was patchy). 

I didn't have access to sufficient bees to make up enough mating nucs for them all. So made up some more nucs this morning and the last 3 queens walked gracefully down into Apideas through the cover holes. They'd emerged overnight (day 16).

Hoping the glorious weather of today and yesterday will not vanish for weeks after tomorrow's rain.

IMG_1105.jpg

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## Jon

All the brace comb can be a bit of a nuisance but the cells are generally ok.
Mine are still starting cells. I did a graft yesterday and most of them are started.
I reckon it is worth grafting at least to the end of August. You might get nothing if September weather is dire but you could end up with a load of extra queens.
Some colonies I opened up last week would still have had 1000+ drones and some sealed drone brood.

That's a nice looking queen going into the apidea.

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## Greengage

Am I out of time to try queen rearing now or should i leave it until next season, would it be any harm to try anyway for the experience, if i made up the mini nuc say Friday,graft on Saturday an dsee how it goes.

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## busybeephilip

> Am I out of time to try queen rearing now or should i leave it until next season, would it be any harm to try anyway for the experience, if i made up the mini nuc say Friday,graft on Saturday an dsee how it goes.


If you need a queen then give it a go, but it is getting late to start setting up starters/finishers/ benharden or what ever method you are thinking of, i suppose it depends how strong your hives are but populations are dropping fast now, also wasps might wipe out your apideas in the blink of an eye at this time of year and dont forget you should be treating now for varroa (thymol based) - a bit of advice dont use MAQS or you will be looking to buy queens, also bayvarol/apistan are no use any more

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## Jon

If you graft into a starter colony on Saturday the time to set up the mini nucs would be ten or eleven days after that.
A grafted larva should produce a queen 12 days after the graft.

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## Greengage

OK tks for that maybe I will do a bit more study on the process over the winter and give it a go next spring, I have treated for Varroa using Apiguard I will put on second pack this weekend, i did sugar roll test and got 3% on the other two hives beside each other in a different apiary one hive had no mites and the other was 3% so i assume ill treat both as they could cross contaminate, thats off the topic of breeding maybe i should post it somewhere else, tks again.

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## Jon

3% or less is not bad but still merits treatment. I had colonies sampled by Keith Browne at NUIG last month and some of them had a much higher infestation level than that.
My Apiguard treatment started about 2 weeks ago.

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## Greengage

Apiguard website tells me it is ok to feed so long as you are not taking honey off other beekeepers tell me dont feed when using apiguard wheather your taking honey or not so i havent fed in two weeks but stores look good and weather has not been too bad this week. So i dont know feed or not.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Apiguard website tells me it is ok to feed so long as you are not taking honey off other beekeepers tell me dont feed when using apiguard wheather your taking honey or not so i havent fed in two weeks but stores look good and weather has not been too bad this week. So i dont know feed or not.


Hi Greengage its ok to feed but sometimes the bees wont take food from a feeder while thymol is being applied
If they are taking down syrup then you can carry on feeding

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## Jon

Mine usually take feed ok during apiguard treatment, if it is needed. If they don't, it often means there is some sort of a problem such as nosema.

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## fatshark

I always feed and treat simultaneously and at the same time ... fondant and apiguard. I've never understood why some advise not to.

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## mbc

> I always feed and treat simultaneously and at the same time ... fondant and apiguard. I've never understood why some advise not to.


Thymol is toxic to bees and some of the bees less able to deal with this toxicity die and tend to go somewhere daft like the trough of a feeder  to die, this may be why the no feeding during treatment is sometimes advised as it can look like carnage if you get a hot day the day or so after the thymols first put in.

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## busybeephilip

just looking at the weather forcast - looks like the start of september is going to be good for Q mating

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## Greengage

Not if you saw tonights forecast 22/8/15 large blocking hig coming in from continent  big rainfall expected for next 48 hrs in Ireland starting from 2am tonight.

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## Kate Atchley

September good for mating ... well some sunny spells at least. The last 12 are showing signs of imminent queen laying ... but will they get it together?

As for *drone comb* being built in mating nucs before a queen is mated: if this is on an outside frame and being filled with stores, is there anything ominous about it?if it's in a central frame does this suggests the bees expect the queen to fail or she's disappeared?

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## Jon

I find that if the queen goes missing in an Apidea they usually wont draw any comb.
They do draw drone comb sometimes. Not sure why.

I am putting the last 20 cells into Apideas this week. Ever the optimist. I did my last grafts on Friday 28th so these queens should emerge on Wednesday.
I have been combining apideas after removing queens for a couple of weeks now to make them stronger.
If you combine 2 or 3 queenless apideas and add a cell it seems to work well with no fighting.

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## mbc

I've been collapsing several mini plus hives down to one overwintering unit some time after harvesting the mated queens and leaving the combined lot with a virgin loose which just came with one of the boxes and they never seem to kill her when you're combing several queenless lots and I've noticed she's often laying a week later if there's been a mating window. I'm not sure wether this is coincidence or a feature of the combined lot encouraging her out but it's worked out advantageously with almost all the boxes I've tried this on.

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## Jon

My logic is that if you combine a queenright with a queenless colony the queen could get killed.
if you combine 2 or more queenless colonies the most you are risking is a queen cell.

It's probably better to unite 3 or more as this should reduce the risk of fighting.

I converted 8 three frame apideas to 3 eight frame doubles at the start of the week and gave each a queen cell.

I checked a few apideas this morning and they have queens but no eggs yet.
Some queens getting close to sell by date.
Bring on the good weather.

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## mbc

Aye, mixing lots of bees makes them very accepting of queens, I would have used cells if I had some but no virgins.

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## Jon

September is a funny month. The queen rearing can be effectively over at the start of the month if the weather is bad or you can end up with quite a number of mated queens you were not really expecting. Hopefully the latter!

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## Kate Atchley

I'll second that Jon!

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## mbc

I haven't taken the gamble, last graft of mine was way back, I do regret it as I harvest mated queens and see the boxes they've come from with plenty of potential to mate more queens, but then I have to limit my responsibilities during extracting and the move to the heather as it takes up so much time.

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