# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  Any casualties yet?

## Jon

I have lost a couple of nucs already.
These were ones I had marked as probably too weak to survive when I did a check in mid October. They were about 2 frames of bees at that stage, nucs made up late August which never got a chance to build up in the relentless rain..
One of them had a little cluster of bees and the queen like one of Doris' fantasy football CCD colonies - so I tipped them into an apidea for the time being. The other was the one which I reported last weekend had a visit by a rat which had chewed through a couple of combs.
I really should have combined a few of these weaker nucs a while back but they all have new queens and I was reluctant to squash any.
I guess I should consider it as natural selection in action.
I reckon I will find a couple more casualties when I apply the oxalic shortly.
Some people might get a shock if they have not checked the bees since the late summer thymol treatment.
I see elsewhere Murray McG is predicting a bad winter and I would concur with that as clusters seem smaller than usual. Some are likely to dwindle to nothing and there will likely be a few queen failures as well.
last winter was brilliant. I only lost one basket case nuc and most local beekeepers had very few losses.
this winter looks like being a lot tougher.
I probably tried to increase too much from 17 to well over 30 but I met a guy in Stirling had increased from 20 to 60 this year. Wonder how his are doing?

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## fatshark

Midday tomorrow has 8 degrees and "sunny periods" predicted so I'll get round mine and look for activity, but won't open them until the OA in a fortnight or so.  Very cold here yesterday - 7 below as I went to the airport (and much warmer when I arrived in Edinburgh!) - which might have hammered the really small clusters. Mini nucs are racked in the just-frost-free greenhouse ...

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## Jon

Found another casualty today when I treated 11 colonies with Oxalic.
This was also one I had marked down as very weak in mid october.
It only had about 500 bees and a queen in the top corner of a couple of frames and they had died of a combination of cold and isolation starvation - near a little patch of sealed brood.
I didn't have my camera with me but it was a perfect illustration of how a small colony can starve in cold weather with stores nearby.
Might try and get a picture tomorrow.
The others I treated, which were mostly nucs, were about as strong as I expected them to be and I would expect them to overwinter ok apart from one which is 50/50 to make it at this point.

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## nemphlar

Treated 7 of them yesterday with sublimated ox, 1 hive and 2nucs were trickle with ox these are in the front garden and was more about not freaking out the neighbours appearing in my goggles and gas filter. At 5'c they were all quite lively I'll hold off making predictions till April

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## gavin

> Treated 7 of them yesterday with sublimated ox, 1 hive and 2nucs were trickle with ox these are in the front garden and was more about not freaking out the neighbours appearing in my goggles and gas filter. At 5'c they were all quite lively I'll hold off making predictions till April


At 5C our neighbours are usually quite quiet!   :Wink: 

All ready and raring to go, but a wee chest infection has kept me away from the bees, and today we were in Edinburgh ...

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## greengumbo

Went to put some extra fondant on last week due to the freezing overnight temps. The previous one hasn't been touched and there were bees alive underneath.

 :Smile:

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## Adam

20 to 60 colonies  might be possible in a good year in the South - but the year wasn't good so maybe an increase to 60 is a bit optomistic. I wouldn't disagree with Murray either.

Jon, I know what you mean about not wanting to squash good queens.

This year I don't have any 5 frame nucs and I did combine some colonies (due to the queen not being to my liking mostly). I'll see how they are shortly as I haven't done the Oxalic thing yet. I do have a couple of smallish colonies - in my 8 frame Nationals. After thymol treatment and with a young queen, the colonies improved no-end in the late summer so I'm hopeful. Colonies were flying well on Saturday.

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## Jon

Colony dynamics is a strange business.
I have colonies in nationals which were very strong in September now down to 3 or 4 frames yet some of the nucs which were on 5-6 frames in September are currently as strong or stronger than the full colonies. Must be something to do with queen performance or maybe nosema affecting the longevity of the bees.
Either way, going into winter with far more than you need looks like a good strategy and natural selection will weed out a few of the less viable ones.

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## gavin

> Must be something to do with queen performance or maybe nosema affecting the longevity of the bees.


Most likely a failed or failing queen in those which have lost bees?  But yes, colony strength sometimes goes in an odd direction, even (or maybe especially) in spring as they pick up.

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## gavin

Mine are looking good at the moment.  Three of the four that went to the heather are really strong (see the oxalic acid thread) but another one is weaker.  The others are OK except for one which looks too small.  So no losses yet amongst mine but if I lose that weak one I'll not be surprised.  

At the association apiary one weak nuc has died but the other 6 small nucs in Paynes boxes and three larger ones in full sized boxed are OK so far.  Have a feeling that I'll lose more of these before spring.  Several were too weak and I knew that I was chancing it.

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## Adam

It's said that by combining in Autumn, you take your losses then rather than over the winter. Makes the over-winter loss-surveys look good!
I've been very lucky with winter losses so far.

Jon, I would guess that your bees are more consistent with regard to winter brood size than many beekeepers as you selectively breed; it's interesting the differences. Will you check for nosema in Spring when they start to fly?

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## Jon

Actually I see a lot of variation in winter cluster size and I always suspect that nosema may be an influence.

I know it makes sense to combine weak colonies in autumn but I always have a load of new queens.
If the winter is mild, even the weak ones come through.

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## keith pierce

Treated 85 stocks and all still alive. A couple are are bit small in numbers, and if the temp comes up a few degrees and the bees are flying, then i will tranfer them out of their full hive into a poly nuc

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## Jon

Hi Keith
That's good going to have no losses yet by end December.
How many of those are full colonies and how many are nucs?
The clusters in mine are smaller than this time last year but I reckon I will get most of them through now at this stage.

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## keith pierce

> Hi Keith
> That's good going to have no losses yet by end December.
> How many of those are full colonies and how many are nucs?
> The clusters in mine are smaller than this time last year but I reckon I will get most of them through now at this stage.


I dont know. If i was to guess then , about 50 full hives and 35 nucs. Some nucs will be strong enought to go into full hives and some full hive will need to go into poly nucs.

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## Jon

If I come across a box with a small cluster I try and close it down by replacing several frames with insulated dummy boards.
I posted picture of a couple of clusters on another thread on here yesterday.

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## Calum

very strange indeed I have lost one from 27 colonies (absconded)
my mentor has lost 14 from 32. Our stratagies are very similar - we are scratching our heads as to why.

Half my colonies are on the same site as his...

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## Jon

Sounds odd indeed.
What did his dead outs look like?
Were his similar strength you yours in the autumn, same age queens?
By similar startegies I take it you mean feeding and varroa primarily.

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## Calum

hi  Jon,
his were probably somewhat stronger, we raised queens from the same stock mother, his were on avarage younger max 2nd year queens...
He treated 6 times with AS and once with perizin, I treated 7 times with AS 60%, once in October when he did his perizin treatment.

His dead outs were all absconded - no nosema to be seen. Three were about done - the bees not clustered together, moving around hecticly - a sure sign for us that they'll be no more soon. We stacked those to see if they'll be able to make anything out of themselves.

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## Poly Hive

AS in my thoughts is Artificial Swarm, but not obviously 6 times... translate please?

PH

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## Calum

sorry yes as - Armeisensäure, my bad, fromic acid

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## Jon

Could there have been something wrong with the formic acid he used, the dosage for example, or maybe some contaminant.
Bees can abscond completely due to thymol fumes or anything which smells toxic to them. Was there brood or stores left behind?

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## Calum

hi, the formic acid was the standard stuff we get supplied with from the government - medical grade.
There were plenty of stores left, and no brood.. In some of them a hand full of dead bees..
It could be he was a little less that dilligent at drone brood removal - he is 83.... And lifting all the supers off 20 odd colonies is a pain in the bum...

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## Bobs-bees

Never seen any of my bees with such long hairs. taken morning of 23rd december. Here in Rainham Kent.

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## keith pierce

Nice bees. Here is a sample of mine.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## Neils

Been around all mine today with OA, doesn't look like we're going to get much of cold winter.  Much to my surprise all are still going  though a couple are down to a couple of seams of bees. The Nuc appears to be one of the strongest colonies at the moment and I'll be looking to get it into a full size hive at the earliest opportunity. Otherwise they all seem ok and were surprisingly placid for being disturbed in this weather.

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## Jon

> Been around all mine today with OA, doesn't look like we're going to get much of cold winter.


Don't speak too soon! looks quite chilly by the end of the week and the following week as well.

http://www.forecast.co.uk/bristol.html

Those colonies with just 2 or 3 seams will probably be ok if you get them dummied down with insulated material. I have quite a few like that.
I will be interested to hear your mite drop as a lot of people are reporting a bigger drop than usual. Someone on the bbka site reported a drop of 700 after treating with Oxalic.

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## Jimbo

Did OA on 4 colonies today, although they are still OK noticed 1 hive was light on sugar. I usually put a few sugar bags on top of the brood as an insurance poicy and that colony has used up the 2 kg. They also all took a lot of winter liquid feed so the mild weather may be keeping them more active and they may be using up their stores quicker this year.

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## Jon

What about cluster size Jim? All fine and dandy?

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## Jimbo

I was a bit concerned about cluster size at the end of the summer as they did not build up as strong as i would have liked. At present they are all a bit mixed anything from 6 seams to the weakest at 3 seams. The colony that has used up the sugar bags was only 3.5 seams and not one of the strongest. They should all get through the winter (fingers crossed) but then I do live in that pesticide free west coast of Scotland!

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## drumgerry

My only "casualty" so far is a nuc which was in a split National box together with another nuc.  The bees all seem to have migrated round through the back entrance to one side leaving the other empty - not a bee to be seen.  Of course it could be CCD  :Wink:  (or not).

All twelve remaining range from 3 to 8 seams and I'm counting the days till Spring.

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## greengumbo

I did my OA treatment on 24th Dec and checked if my fondant was being munched. Only 2 seams of bees and even they were only along 2/3rds of the frames but they were quite active and the fondant was only marginally gone. Scraped about 100 dead bees from the floor using a twig through the entrance. I am a pessimist so quite worried as the replacement queen only started making winter bees in September. Fingers crossed.

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## Poly Hive

I have lost 8 from 9 nucs which is sad though not totally unexpected due to known poor matings. One colony lost, again I suspect due to poor mating as they tried several times to get themselves put right and I had nothing better to offer them. The price of the poor season I suppose. 

What I have in hand though seem to be thriving and were OA treated today. Fondant has been on for over a month now and very little used all in all so off on holidays now quite happy. 

PH

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## prakel

_edit: on 20/03/13, having come back to this post to make an update I think for clarity that I should point out that my initial clue as to something being 'wrong' was due to a very definate change in behaviour from previous visits, apparent when checking stores._

On the face of things, quite a nice mating nuc for January but a little further investigation shows that things are far from fine (I know, wrong time of year to be opening hives -but it can help to build a useful picture of what's actually going on if carried out over a few years).

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## Jon

So why do you reckon they are making queen cells - look like emergency cells and there is brood present so the queen must have died or disappeared unexpectedly.

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## prakel

There's no sign of her beyond the brood shown in the photos  -and so far as I'm aware nothing untoward has happened to the nuc, certainly nothing visible. Shame as it's otherwise a nice unit that fits it's box well. Some of my others look considerably weaker than I'd normally expect at this time of year.

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## greengumbo

> I did my OA treatment on 24th Dec and checked if my fondant was being munched. Only 2 seams of bees and even they were only along 2/3rds of the frames but they were quite active and the fondant was only marginally gone. Scraped about 100 dead bees from the floor using a twig through the entrance. I am a pessimist so quite worried as the replacement queen only started making winter bees in September. Fingers crossed.


Well I went out in between the chills to quickly check fondant and it had half gone. Whacked another lump on quickly but saw no sign of any bees underneath the older stuff......think it might be game over  :Frown:  Time will tell.

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## gavin

Two smallish frames of bees can be two well-covered frames which struggle on to make it through the winter, or can be just a few hundred bees clustering at the top of largely deserted combs.  The latter could be from a failing or failed queen, or any number of causes, and was never going to make it whatever you did.

You'll not be alone this winter.  I have a few at the association apiary under my 'care' (!) which are in a similar state - again I've tried to overwinter some that were really too small. 

As long as you think that there was no serious disease, I'd pick off and pick out dead bees and sealed brood (if any), do an acetic acid fumigation (if you can access some) when the weather warms up a little, then let it air and set it up as a bait box for May swarms.  Or splash out for a nuc from someone.

These guys suggest 140 ml per box.  Pour on absorbent towels or kitchen sponges on the top bars, seal the box in a dustbin bag, and set out in a sunny spot for a week or two.

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## Jon

If you use 50ml of Acetic acid and leave it for a week it wont all have evaporated.
I know that 140 ml is Fera advice but I never have to use that much.
It is well worth doing as it should eliminate everything except AFB spores.
Nosema in particular is very sensitive to acetic acid by all accounts.

Gav, everyone I have spoken to is reporting the issue with smaller clusters this winter.
Some of these will need a lot of nursing and TLC if they make it through to March.

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## gavin

Sounds rather like the volume I've used but I wasn't trusting my memory. I doubt that the volume is critical anyway. 

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## fatshark

We've had temperatures consistently below zero for a week now and over a foot of snow ... some of my mini-nucs were feeling disconcertingly light so I sneaked a very quick look this afternoon.  All OK.  Stores seem fine and despite the temperature - exactly zero - there were bees feeding on fondant in the homebuilt Kieler frame feeders.  On the very coldest nights I've moved a pile of these (very gently) into a just-frost-free greenhouse (alongside the overwintering agaves).  I then move them back outside at 7am for the day.

The weather looks set to break at the weekend but it will be some time until we're in the clear and I know the Q's haven't turned out to be drone layers.  For some reason I think this trait only becomes evident when the Q starts ramping up egg laying in the Spring, rather than during the sporadic laying overwinter.  Is this right?

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## Mellifera Crofter

No!  None.  Eleven hives went into winter and eleven are still there (for now).  I arrived back in Scotland on Friday and went straight to my hives to check on the food situation, and thought I've lost a hive.  No sign of life, cold crownboard ... It was a cold day, so I didn't open it to check just in case there might be life - and today I saw there is.  They're alive and coming and going and collecting pollen from heaven knows where like all the other hives.
Kitta

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## chris

That's excellent news Kitta. I think that when it gets very cold, the bees can go into a sort of comatose state. Best left completely alone. I haven't checked mine since October, but that's because of too much snow for me to wade through. I don't think I'll discover the damage (or hopefully otherwise) until about the end of March if this weather continues.

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## Bridget

Gosh I couldn't bear not have a regular visual check just to check they haven't been knocked or blown over.  Lovely day again here and all three hives flying strongly.  Snowdrops getting hammered and had to move my seat in the sun as the bees were all over the hellebores in a tub I bought at a garage sale in October, and buzzing too close for comfort.  


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## Black Comb

One gone so far. A swarm that re-queened itself and did not build up very well. Should have united. I'm wanting more colonies so its tempting to hang on to these smaller ones. Perhaps the queen was badly mated. Plenty of food left close by the cluster.

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## Neils

Going to attempt a quick peek this weekend. Probably too cold for them to be flying but a few bags of fondant were well chewed last time around. I still think that two are probably not going to make it, but we'll see.

I wanted to hive the Nuc about now, but it's still far too cold for that, a peek at how the fondant is lasting will have tO do.

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## chris

> I don't think I'll discover the damage (or hopefully otherwise) until about the end of March if this weather continues.


A week ago, night lows were around minus 18°c.That's now the second day the shade highs have reached 15°,and much of the snow has gone from the south facing slopes. Today I managed to get to one of the apiaries. 2 dead out of 8. And those two went into winter very weak so I wasn't expecting them to survive.The 6 live colonies were working very hard bringing in 2 types of pollen, one orange and one bright, pale yellow. I haven't fed this winter,so am pleased with the apparent vigour of the survivors. I'll wait a while longer before doing a proper spring visit,and checking the other apiary.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Sorry about those two colonies, Chris - but pleased about the vigorous survivors.  Are the hives often covered with snow in the winter, or is it more your access that is hindered?

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## chris

I really don't mind those losses-I expected much worse.
Both hives and access, though the access stays difficult long after the hives are free of snow. If I can find them, I'll try and post some photos of a few years back.

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## Calum

Finally, from 26 hives 27 made it, one varroa casualty. (an attempt to overwinter in an apidea straved, which I am really sad about)
This evening the first ten are being picked up, the other 10 this weekend.
Wondering if 6 is too many going into the new season...

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## fatshark

Wow Calum ... your season must be well ahead of ours.  I don't expect to conduct any real form of an inspection for another three weeks at least. We've had frosts for most of the last few nights and only one day into double figures (C) in a month. Remember that I'm 200+ miles South of most of the real Scottish contributors to this forum ...

Have faith ... it's going to be a great year ... you'll regret *only* having six colonies when the first nectar starts coming in  :Big Grin:

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## Calum

Fifteen degrees yesterday, the bees were all flying strongly. It will get cooler from today. I am a bit further south than you but we had more than a foot of snow for the last weeks!! I'll get enough honey from six colonies- I don't really have time work wise to sell it as is. From six colonies 120- 180 kg is an ok Year...

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## brothermoo

uploadfromtaptalk1362698091320.jpg
This was awaiting me when I went with OA after in January.  Small cluster going into winter... as it was a swarm requeened in august with a beautiful homegrown specimen, shame  :Frown:  
uploadfromtaptalk1362698119698.jpg

 But it was my nuc and I still have two hives yet (where is the little smiley touching wood) 
__________________
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## Neils

Sorry to see that BM. I've not checked mine for a few weeks, the weather and my days off have not aligned for a while. I'm still expecting to lose two but am encouraged by the other 4, especially one of them that nearly went the way of the Norwegian blue last spring but through diligent ignoring by me managed to build up nicely over summer and was still looking pretty good last time I saw them.

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## Jon

Hi Stephen.
I have had quite a few like that myself - all nucs.
The bees in your picture had been dead for a good few weeks judging by the mould.
The nucs have been very badly hit this winter.
Anything on the small side just ran out of bees at some point in January as the older ones died off.
Most of the queens I have lost were beautiful homegrown specimens as well.  :Frown:

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## Calum

Brothermoo-
it looks alot like they starved.

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## brothermoo

> Brothermoo-
> it looks alot like they starved.


Yeah i didnt know if they would make it through when looking at them (and feeding them) in autumn.. perhaps some fondant mid december could have changed things, but then again who knows!

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## Bumble

One of mine is very light, but they've still got plenty of fondant above the crownboard. They were eating it the other day when I checked, I'm hoping it isn't the wrong place if it turns horribly cold.

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## Calum

Best is a frame from a colony that has been more thrifty (usually a stronger colony). Brothermoo it's a pity to loose a colony through something the aparist could have prevented. I'll try to have a couple of 'emercancy' filled frames in the autumn extra. If I don't use them there is always a use for them when making up new colonies

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## Bridget

Went to check the fondant today - the two polys look fine - just a quick glance under the fondant to see if any movment. But the National, my biggest colony with 9 seams in January, all dead.  I've put up a picture below and would a) be grateful for any thoughts, comments and procedures to follow b) any advice how to check though the hive to see if I can see any reason for this and c) can I save the drawn comb d) how to deal with the hive to get rid of any nasties. I shall be able to give the hive a good going over at the weekend but no time today.
This colony was treated with Apistan in late September when the heather was over and with OA in Jan.  Had very little varroa mite drop from this hive. Fed syrup throughout the autumn and fondant after the OA. Last seen flying 0n 27 Feb and had a quick peek on the 10th March and there was movement then.  They were well insulated above the board and also had polystyrene boards around the outside of the hive, which I did last year as well. They just look like the folk of Pompeii - just dropped in their tracks.  
This hive has evidence of mice droppings on the inspection board and some odd legs and wings on the board as well.
DEAD BEES.jpg

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## Jon

Can't see if there are any stores from the picture.
Seems like a reasonable amount of bees.
Did you remove any frames to check for stores?

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## Dark Bee

Very sad to have that happen, it could be that they ran out of stores. In which case there may be a slight chance they are not all dead and a spray with warm water to which sugar has been added might, just might save them.
It is worth remembering that more colonies starve at this time of year than at any other. If bees are flying and out of stores, filling a frame of empty comb with syrup can be a life saver.

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## drumgerry

It is a slightly odd picture Bridget because it's not how I'd expect a dead colony to look.  Maybe my experience is just my experience but I'd expect the biggest proportion of those bees to be lying in a pile on the floor rather than seemingly frozen in situ.  Heads in cells of another significant number of them if it was starvation. Interested to hear what everyone else thinks as well.

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## Black Comb

Was the fondant over a hole in the crown board or was it directly on top of the frames?

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## Bridget

> Can't see if there are any stores from the picture.
> Seems like a reasonable amount of bees.
> Did you remove any frames to check for stores?


Didn't have time to check stores - will do that at the weekend. At first I didn't like to remove the crown board as I wasn't sure they were all dead.

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## Bridget

> Was the fondant over a hole in the crown board or was it directly on top of the frames?


It was over a hole in the crown board but the bees had been well into it and there was one dead bee in it.

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## Dark Bee

Were they on an open mesh floor without a solid inspection tray underneath? Were they located in a frost pocket and was there an exceptionally cold snap? There is a possibility they were too remote from the fondant, if there are corpses in empty cells and a pile of dead bees on the floor below - think starvation.

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## fatshark

I can't add anything useful on the cause of their demise over what's already been offered. A tight ish cluster with the Q in the middle and loads of workers head down in cells around her is classic isolation starvation.

You can use acetic acid to clean the frames and comb. Remember it wrecks the metal runners so smear them heavily with Vaseline, seal the box well and leave the acetic acid (50ml) in a container on top of the frames. I usually space them apart to give them a good airing in the stuff; perhaps stack two broods and distribute the frames. Treat for a week and then air them well before re-use.

Wear gloves and eye protection. It's unpleasant stuff.

Flame the box as per usual.

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## Trog

Always worth sending a sample of the dead bees in a matchbox to Fiona Highet of SASA.  Address is on p67 of the March magazine.  SASA can check for acarine, nosema, etc.

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## prakel

Post 34 of this thread I wrote (and included photos):




> On the face of things, quite a nice mating nuc for January but a little further investigation shows that things are far from fine (I know, wrong time of year to be opening hives -but it can help to build a useful picture of what's actually going on if carried out over a few years).


The follow up; this little box was left alone until the end of January/start of Feb at which point the very healthy looking although plainly useless virgin was destroyed and the bulk bees given to another mating nuc which had dwindled to a mere handful of stragglers and a queen after having the roof (and stone weight) removed while I was away for the month in the run up to Christmas -will never know how long they were totally exposed but it was long enough to see off maybe +/-80% of the population. The combined unit now showing signs of doing something as a single family. 

There are some useful 'confirmations' to unsubstantiated ideas which can be gleaned by maintaining an active level of vigilance through the winter months; not something I've always done by any means but I do think I'm now getting a much better picture of exactly what's going on in my hives. 

The dud nuc would (by my old practice) have been written down at the end of this month as a late supercedure attempt which failed when in fact it was something else -I may not know exactly what happened but I do now know to never assume that those end of winter colonies with unmated queens are the result of late attempts at supercedure which the bees 'got wrong'. That January raised virgin which I culled was far too flitty to get a photo of but, based on looks, I'd have been pleased to see her in a Summer mating nuc....

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## Bridget

> Went to check the fondant today - the two polys look fine - just a quick glance under the fondant to see if any movment. But the National, my biggest colony with 9 seams in January, all dead.  I've put up a picture below and would a) be grateful for any thoughts, comments and procedures to follow b) any advice how to check though the hive to see if I can see any reason for this and c) can I save the drawn comb d) how to deal with the hive to get rid of any nasties. I shall be able to give the hive a good going over at the weekend but no time today.
> This colony was treated with Apistan in late September when the heather was over and with OA in Jan.  Had very little varroa mite drop from this hive. Fed syrup throughout the autumn and fondant after the OA. Last seen flying 0n 27 Feb and had a quick peek on the 10th March and there was movement then.  They were well insulated above the board and also had polystyrene boards around the outside of the hive, which I did last year as well. They just look like the folk of Pompeii - just dropped in their tracks.  
> This hive has evidence of mice droppings on the inspection board and some odd legs and wings on the board as well.
> Attachment 1451


Well pulled the hive of dead bees apart today and i'm pretty sure they starved.  Dead bees several deep on the floor and bees over every frame but one and many of them nose down in the cells.  No sign of any stores at all with a small amount of pollen on one of the outer frames. The new fondant I had put on 31st Jan had been eaten into but you would have thought that if they were starving they would have finished it and I would have given them more. No sign of a cluster, they were well spread out and no sign of the young queen from last summer as she was unmarked. Have taken a sample of bees to send to SASA.
IMG_0029.jpg
Bottom of hive with dead bees
IMG_0031.jpg
Starved bees all head down
IMG_0036.jpg
Dead bees covering most of the frames

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## Jon

Hi Bridget.
Looks like starvation all right. Don't beat yourself up about it and you still have a couple of colonies which hopefully will do well this year.

I know several people who have lost all their bees already this winter, several colonies in some cases.

I have lost a lot of my late summer nucs this winter.
I posted these pics back in December.

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## Poly Hive

I heard from a very good source that some in Aberdeenshire in particular have had 90 - 100 % losses. 

A very weak colony cannot use supplied stores and dies usually as they have lost heart after getting to the point where they know they are not viable. It's sad but that's the way it is. On the plus side it is Nature doing the right thing and setting the colony the acid test, if they fail then arguably it's for the greater genetic good. 

PH

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## Jon

A number of factors have coincided to make this winter very difficult for bees.
Rain all summer, bees needing fed in June, limited foraging for nectar and especially pollen, poor queen mating, queens shutting down early leading to lack of winter bees and small clusters, no ivy pollen in the autumn leading to poorly nourished winter bees, late spring with low temperatures, etc.

We have had snow lying for the past three days.

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=Bridget;16776]Well pulled the hive of dead bees apart today and i'm pretty sure they starved.  Dead bees several deep on the floor.................................


It is sad and there is no use in recriminations. The short period it takes for bees to go from flying about one day to being dead takes everyone by surprise and more bees die in Spring from hunger than do in mid winter. Was there a solid insert underneath the mesh floor or was the bottom of the hive open to the elements?

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## Bridget

[QUOTE=Dark Bee;16789]


> Well pulled the hive of dead bees apart today and i'm pretty sure they starved.  Dead bees several deep on the floor.................................
> 
> 
> It is sad and there is no use in recriminations. The short period it takes for bees to go from flying about one day to being dead takes everyone by surprise and more bees die in Spring from hunger than do in mid winter. Was there a solid insert underneath the mesh floor or was the bottom of the hive open to the elements?


I think its the shear number of bees that shocked me.  By far my strongest hive.  I had a solid insert underneath the mesh floor.  Its pretty cold here, I'm probably about at the limit for bees in winter in Scotland, though its not a "frost pocket".  Happy to report that the other two hives are still alive and I gave them more fondant today.  One of the hives visibly perked up when I put the new fondant on.  The other hive has a wooden crown board so couldn't see their reaction.

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## drumgerry

Bridget there are people who winter bees in far harsher climates than we do in northern Scotland.  So no particular reason why they shouldn't make it through.  Unless there's some underlying thing going on.  It could be any of a number of factors or a combination of them and the other posters have mentioned them already.  It is a proper scunner to lose a colony but you'll bounce back don't worry.

And PH I do know of someone from Aberdeenshire who lost 100% of their bees but then they only had one colony!  I can't imagine a scenario where an experienced beekeeper loses a large number of colonies but of course if you have the inside track...

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## Pete L

> I heard from a very good source that some in Aberdeenshire in particular have had 90 - 100 % losses.


I have heard similar, could be up to as many as 800 colonies in one case.

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## chris

> Its pretty cold here, I'm probably about at the limit for bees in winter in Scotland.


I'm sure that it's not colder than many places where bees are successfully overwintered. I think the important thing about the bees overwintering is not the winter conditions, but how they cope with the locality during the other three seasons.

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## gavin

I'd have thought that putting fondant over the feed hole at the time of oxalic acid treatment should have been fine.  It seems to work for me.  The brood raising by this time of year warms the air above the cluster, the moisture in it wets the surface of the fondant, and as they get used to going up for it they shouldn't have too much trouble.  When the feed hole isn't above the cluster, especially in a weak colony, they would have trouble getting there and it is worth rotating the crownboard until they align.  Draughts from a second open feed hole or gaps under the fondant may chill the top of the hive.  But here you had a strong colony which seems to have got used to going up for the fondant so I'm surprised that it succumbed. 

The distribution of the bees doesn't sound right.  Perhaps the problem was a loss of the queen overwinter, no brood and so little warmth being generated under the fondant, and isolation starvation of the bees as a result of that and the cold weather.

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## Bridget

> The distribution of the bees doesn't sound right.  Perhaps the problem was a loss of the queen overwinter, no brood and so little warmth being generated under the fondant, and isolation starvation of the bees as a result of that and the cold weather.


There was no brood, nor any sign, just beautifully polished empty cells throughout so I think that could be  the answer  Gavin - they lost their queen.




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## Bridget

> I'm sure that it's not colder than many places where bees are successfully overwintered. I think the important thing about the bees overwintering is not the winter conditions, but how they cope with the locality during the other three seasons.


I agree there are far colder places in other countries but they are less damp and lots of snow build up gives some insulation. also in ,many parts of Europe they have bees houses where the hives are well protected from the elements and in the colder parts of America I gather the commercial boys warehouse them.  We have talked about building a bee house here and I think we shall seriously consider doing it this summer.  


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## Bridget

Btw - put all the little corpses in the wood burning stove and a wonderful aroma of honey filled the room!


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## drumgerry

> I have heard similar, could be up to as many as 800 colonies in one case.


That sounds horrendous.  I'd be interested to hear more about this.

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## prakel

Looking as if there are going to be a lot of nuclei and queens being shipped around during the coming season. 

Was just reading about a local (to me) family who having lost all of their stocks are now going to order in more nucs -from some distant operation. You'd think they'd sound out the local's who haven't lost an undue number of colonies (Gavin: must be those ancient Buckfast genetics which you noticed!!) to see if they could get an over wintered local nuc. Nah, way too simple a solution!

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## Poly Hive

There are others in the UK with harder climates than yours Bridget. I never block up the floors, and I ran my colonies in Aberdeenshire for many years on that basis as does my mentor in Inverness-shire. He runs some 700+ rather successfully. 

PH

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## drumgerry

Harder than Kingussie and the Cairngorm area PH?!  Hmmm...I wonder where?

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## marion.orca

Just in from having a cup of tea in the garden whilst watching a bumble bee going about her business - harsh climate in Scotland ? - never !

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## Poly Hive

One of the issues with a "Bee House" as Bernard told me at considerable length is the stress it puts on colonies for water oddly. He had 8 I think it was in the "Queen rearing shed" and they actually did worse than the ones outside in the winters. 

PH

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## Trog

I had a cousin-in-law in Aviemore, not that far from Kingussie, and the weather was far more harsh than here on the west coast or, I suspect, that on the east coast.  His daffodils were at least a month behind ours and it was still very much winter there when we'd been enjoying spring for a month.

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## Bridget

> Harder than Kingussie and the Cairngorm area PH?!  Hmmm...I wonder where?


Hmm I was too polite to say that Drumgerry.  But I was struggling to identify the place!  
What's a saving grace for beekeepers in the alps or cold parts of N . America etc is their summers.  Warm, sunny and Bright.  We'd might have long days but they are not much good if its dreich.

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## drumgerry

I think Bridget in terms of pure cold and snow there's very few places really in the UK that can top Strathspey (at least where people actually live!) and you live in the part of Strathspey that has the harshest climate. Where I am we sometimes get the benefit of a coastal airstream but I don't think you do!  The only competitors I'd say are other similar areas in Scotland like around Braemar.  And in the winter of 2009-2010 we had snow on the ground continually from December till April in our area and I don't suppose you were much different.

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## keith pierce

I am now at about 20% losses and rising and blaming myself and not the bees. I completely over stripped a lot of my hives of  bees last year for making up overwintered nucs, leaving them a little on the weak size and then hoping on a mild winter and the ivy too yield excess pollen so that they would build up again for the winter. The ivy did not really yield well at all last year and the bees went into the winter undernourished and low on their fat stores and numbers. It's now 7 months later and they still are waiting for pollen to come into the hive to put a little fat back on their bodies and get the queen back into condition to start laying. One apiary I went through, had 3 knocked over by sheep (dead) , one had only about 100 bees and a queen, one with laying workers and another 4 dead. That was 9 out of 15. One had visual signs of nosema. Hives that were still alive----Some  had a frame of brood, but some had no brood at all, with some eggs in the bottom of cells that the bees were refusing to incubate.
I still expect another 10% losses , as some of the bee numbers in the cluster are too small to recover.

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## Bumble

> I think Bridget in terms of pure cold and snow there's very few places really in the UK that can top Strathspey (at least where people actually live!) and you live in the part of Strathspey that has the harshest climate. Where I am we sometimes get the benefit of a coastal airstream but I don't think you do!  The only competitors I'd say are other similar areas in Scotland like around Braemar.


Friends near Braemar tried to grow runner beans in a greenhouse because last and first frosts of the year made the outdoor growing season too short. The deer would have etean them outside, along with the roses, but that's beside the point.

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## madasafish

My parents lived in Torphins. near Braemar.

I remember a winter in the 1970s when the snow  frost lasted until May. It was a granite built house... freezing...

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## Samsalar

Hi
Lost my second hive tonight, bees and queen sitting on top of uncapped honey.  Just seem to have frozen as cluster too small.  They were alive 15th March (saw them flying), but has come above freezing since then.
My remaining hive looks weak, had a quick peek so at and saw a small cluster of live bees- question should I move it into polytunnel I have in garden or just leave and keep fingers crossed.  I am at 600 feet in rural Aberdeenshire with still about 9 inches of snow all round the hive.
Any advice welcomed.
Thanks
Sam

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## Dark Bee

I would probably leave it where it is and cover it with canvas tarpaulin, if you have any. Bales of hay/straw stacked tightly all around and especially on top can also be used. If it is in the middle of a snow drift - the snow will provide insulation. If you move the hive into a polytunnel or other shelter you will loose bees when they fly again - they do not relocate nearly as readily as the books would have us believe. But then bringing them in is probably the only way to get heat into them quickly and avert death /starvation, if food stocks are low.

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## Calum

Also lost a second colony. Varroa and nosema got it, just two frames of bees left today. So in with the sulphur and out with the frames. -7c tonight which should kill the nosema spores, 120ml 60% acetic acid will apparently be enough to kill the rest according to the latest "die Biene". Any tips on a source for 60% acetic?

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## Bumble

What a pity, after you've brought them through what should have been the worst of the weather. This is a cruel spring.




> My remaining hive looks weak, had a quick peek so at and saw a small cluster of live bees- question should I move it into polytunnel I have in garden or just leave and keep fingers crossed.  I am at 600 feet in rural Aberdeenshire with still about 9 inches of snow all round the hive.


I agree with DB. If you move them your risk losing most of, if not all, the flying bees when they can get out again.

Have you got anything you can wrap around the outside, and above, the hive to help keep the heat in without raising moisture levels?

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## gavin

Sorry to hear that Sam. I would minimise disturbance now. Fondant over their heads now, even a thin slice straight on the top bars under the crown board. Sheet of Kingspan on top of the crownboard if it is a wooden hive. Then when it warms up replace frames each side of the brood nest with Kingspan in a plastic bag to help them keep warm.  Small colonies in big spaces build more slowly.

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## madasafish

A quick fix is to make a crude rectangle  from insulation - Kingspan , Celetox and cover the hive body - with a hole for the entrance.. And a layer under the roof. one 2 meter length will easily do a hive. (or two)

Cuts easily by hand with a knife, gaffer tape and away you go..  Pre-assemble in warm, roof off, cylinder on, insulate other roof in warm and swap roof.. 2 minute job.

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## chris

Just one point about snow insulating a hive. If the temps. go below zero and the snow freezes, then it won't allow the air to pass. So make sure you clear a passage to the entrance so that fresh air can get into the hive. I learnt that the hard way. :-(

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## brothermoo

Discovered I lost another one this morn  :Frown: 


Full frame of uncapped honey unnoticed, shame!
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## Jon

That looks like a queen in the centre of the cluster in the front frame in the first photo.
I have a lot of small clustersbut I have them closed down to 3 or 4 frames which helps with thermo regulation.
It is make or break time now for a lot of colonies.
I think we are going to have a big shortage of bees in our BKA the way things are panning out at the moment.

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## prakel

I wonder how many people are going to find themselves regretting ordering early April queens at £30-£40 each; not to mention the damage that splits may well cause if reports of 'small' colonies are indeed fair representation of the general state of things.

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## Bumble

I don't know, but I think those who have preordered might be the only lucky ones this year. The rest will have to wait for imports.

Is there any more about the 800 or so colonies lost in Aberdeenshire?

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## greengumbo

> I don't know, but I think those who have preordered might be the only lucky ones this year. The rest will have to wait for imports.
> 
> Is there any more about the 800 or so colonies lost in Aberdeenshire?


Wow 800 - where was the original report ?

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## gavin

> Wow 800 - where was the original report ?


Gossip, I believe, sounded reasonable given the source but I don't think that you'll find it written down.  Heavy losses near the Angus-Aberdeenshire border reaching my ears too.  What I'm wondering is whether these sorts of losses (the big numbers I mean) are being experienced by folk I regard as top beekeepers, or are they coming from the guys who always struggle with higher losses than their peers.  I saw an apiary in that area when visiting friends recently and wondered how the bees could possibly thrive there.  Arable land with oilseed rape some distance away and little natural forage.  I was told that they stayed there all summer.

Anyway, I asked on Monday at our association meeting in Dundee and although one of our members had lost more than you'd expect, no-one was talking about dramatic losses.  I checked my own this afternoon, and those at the association apiary.

My own: still six colonies alive, smaller clusters than I'd like at this time of year but I can't be sure of what they're like (or indeed that the queen is laying fertilised eggs) until it warms up.  Some have eaten quite a lot of their fondant but others have hardly touched theirs.  One had the mouse guard hanging off and mouse droppings on the floor insert but the bees were still alive.  I lost one very small colony (it came from a site with a serious Varroa problem) around Christmas (entirely predicted) and one around New Year (didn't expect that one, looks like a queen problem).

At the association apiary the colonies going into winter were generally smaller and are mostly in polystyrene of one flavour or another.  A few were petering out or had died when they were brought back from the heather (very poor queen mating being mostly responsible).  Many were (and still are) nuc strength and seven are still alive.  They seem fairly healthy in that the cluster sizes look to be on the increase.

So, despite these stories of heavier losses around, we're not really seeing it amongst the amateurs in our area ... as far as I can tell, and so far.

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## Neils

By simply not having been able to look at mine over the past couple of weeks I'm claiming Schroedinger's Bees. Though I will be doing the rounds over the weekend armed with more fondant. Each hive was given a 2,5kg pack in mid Jan so they _should_ ok, but better safe than sorry.

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## Jon

The main problem here is very small clusters rather than lack of stores.
Fingers crossed you will be ok.

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## drumgerry

Yep it's the small clusters I'm worried about.  Don't want to go in to see what the scores on the doors are but they were ok at the beginning of last week.   I don't think I've ever wanted a winter to be over so much as this one.

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## Neils

Two colonies the last time I saw them were very small so I'm expecting them not to make it, the rest looked ok in January, but I've not been able to look at them since. I might hazard a quick peek under the crownboard this weekend, it's supposed to be a tropical 4degrees this weekend.

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## GRIZZLY

Bit worried over 4 colonies as I've just today managed to dig them out following our snowstorm. All's well however and despite being completely burried they started to fly in the light warmth onced released from the snow.Just one out apiary left to check - fingers crossed.

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## The Drone Ranger

small colonies might not be too much to worry about
E.P. Jefree suggests the colony size is smallest at the end of March beginning of April (In lecture notes to the Central Assoc of Beekeepers 1959) 
One colony (F) had a minimum size of only 690 bees yet had 12000 in the summer (1947) and brought in 28lb honey
He does however point out the Summer 1947 was a very good one and they would probably have died out in a more normal year

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## gavin

Summer 2013 is also going to be a very good one, so that'll be fine!

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## Jon

> Summer 2013 is also going to be a very good one, so that'll be fine!


Mystic Gavin, the oracle of Dundee.
Gives even more depth to the morphometry tea-leaf interpretations!

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## Jimbo

Had an interesting conversation with a MBE beekeeper last who said he has lost 15 colonies already from his 60+ He mentioned that his 2nd year queens seem to be doing ok so far and the losses were from last year mated queens

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## Jon

> Had an interesting conversation with a MBE beekeeper last who said he has lost 15 colonies already from his 60+ He mentioned that his 2nd year queens seem to be doing ok so far and the losses were from last year mated queens


That's what I have seen as well but my 2012 queens were almost all in nucs so I put the losses down to smaller colony size going into winter.

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## brothermoo

Well, I had a chance to check on my last hive and found another dead out  :Frown: 
3 for 3 lost.. 1 was a nuc but the other 2 were small clusters going into winter. Swarm season coupled with good local mating program to requeen any swarms I get is now much anticipated!
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## Mellifera Crofter

I spoke to somebody today who reminded me that a lot of the recent colony deaths are probably due to the fact that the hives are full of old bees who could not get out to forage for pollen in this weather and now their time is up.  They're dying of old age before they've had a chance to raise new young bees.  That hadn't occurred to me before.  I thought they were all dying because they were small colonies huddled together far away from their food (or being freeze-dried by the wind from their open-mesh floors).
Kitta

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## Dark Bee

Without any doubt I am sorry for anyone who has lost bees, it is not a pleasant experience. Now this is something which will probably be impossible to quantify, but I wonder how did imported bees and their crosses fare compared to AMM?

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## Jon

Locally I don't see any difference DB.
The people with mongrels, and the people with native or near native bees all seem to have heavier than usual losses this winter.
The previous winter hardly anyone lost anything except people who did no varroa treatment or relied exclusively on the now ineffective Apistan.

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## Neils

> Had an interesting conversation with a MBE beekeeper last who said he has lost 15 colonies already from his 60+ He mentioned that his 2nd year queens seem to be doing ok so far and the losses were from last year mated queens


Likewise, it's the colonies with queens from 2012 that are struggling, bar one. The rest are on 2011 queens (one with 2010) and seem to doing fine.

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=Jon;16942]Locally I don't see any difference DB ..................................................  ..................................................  .....................................

It is similar where I keep my bees. Most colonies in that area are  near AMM. A commercial  beekeeper who regularly "acquires" Italian queens seems to have had virtual wipe outs in some of his apiaries. A kindly couple here were mislead into buying two colonies of Buckfasts / Fastbucks as a present for their daughter and son in law, these were well fed but died quite early on from dysentry and nosema, their two AMM stocks seem to be thriving. All I can say is hurry up Spring.

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## The Drone Ranger

I think Italians are very gentle but not frugal enough for this part of Scotland
Re the Buckfasts though I suspect bought in colonies fail more often than people expect (all types)
Most of the commercial bees brought into East Scotland will be Carniolan (Murray McGregor etc)
The breeding stock for them comes from much harsher climate than our own (Germany for example)
Most Hybrids are mix of everything but probably lots of Carnie in there with local drones as well and they will be suited to this climate and tough.
I don't know how AMM would fare here depends where their from (they are imported now)nobody has any here except possibly in remote areas.
(They are on a lot of peoples wish list nevertheless)

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## Trog

Still too cold to lift crownboards but I've checked under the candy.  No further losses so winter total is 1 lost to starvation (assisted by wasps), 1 to failed supersedure late in the summer, 1 to acarine.  I had an interesting experience with two colonies who, unlike the others, hadn't touched their candy, let alone finished it.  I lifted the candy (in transparent takeaway boxes) to check for live bees at the feed hole but this time turned it up to see how much they'd eaten ... AND FOUND THE PLASTIC LIDS STILL ON.  As I can't remember whether I put these feeds on or if they were the ones my helpful other half said he'd do after locking up the hens (it was months ago), I don't know who should be sitting in the corner with the Dunce hat on.  Most likely himself, as I'd done all the others and not left any lids on! Ah well, the bees are enjoying the bonus feed now!

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## gavin

> Most of the commercial bees brought into East Scotland will be Carniolan (Murray McGregor etc)
> The breeding stock for them comes from much harsher climate than our own (Germany for example)
> Most Hybrids are mix of everything but probably lots of Carnie in there with local drones as well and they will be suited to this climate and tough.
> I don't know how AMM would fare here depends where their from (they are imported now)nobody has any here except possibly in remote areas.
> (They are on a lot of peoples wish list nevertheless)


Carnies are adapted for real winters, when all is cold and quiet, and sudden, predictable springs.  What we have on offer is intermittent often damp and mild winters, erratic springs, essentially just weather that can't make its mind up.  Which kind of bee will survive best in the environment we have to offer here - one adapted to the stop-start erratic stuff and which flies in cold weather, or one that is used to being frugal over a cold winter then takes all the brakes off and really revs the engines in early spring?  I would really like to see some properly collected data on which types survives best in the hands of a high management beekeeper like Murray, and which survives best with the lower levels of management of some other bee farmers and some amateurs.  I don't know what the answer is, that's why I would like to see it done, and I would like to see it done so that risk assessments can be made of the effect of huge importations of exotic queens and packages, as may happen after winters with high losses.  These large-scale importations affect all of us in these regions, yet there is little consideration of the effect on others.

On the question of whether Amm is still around, most beekeepers in your area have stocks that owe a fair chunk of their heritage to Amm.  One of the SBA surveys (one I helped organise) asked beekeepers what race they thought that they had.  Something like 1/3 said Amm, 1/3 said Amm-ish mongrels, 1/3 said something else.  It is the apiaries with recent importations of exotic stock- like yours DR - that don't seem to have much in the way of Amm heritage.  Of course it may be wishful thinking, but it does reveal what many beekeepers would like to think they had.

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## Trog

I thought  mine were more mongrel than they turned out to be when Jimbo did their wings; they're more AMM than I thought!

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## The Drone Ranger

> I thought  mine were more mongrel than they turned out to be when Jimbo did their wings; they're more AMM than I thought!


You should be OK Trog there can't be many commercial beekeepers on Mull and unless they grow rape there they won't be importing Carniolans from New  Zealand

Hi Gavin
"asked beekeepers what race they thought that they had. Something like 1/3 said Amm, 1/3 said Amm-ish mongrels, 1/3 said something else. It is the apiaries with recent importations of exotic stock- like yours DR - that don't seem to have much in the way of Amm heritage"

I don't have any exotic stock Gavin Just what the commercial beekeepers bring to my doorstep because of the rape
In the ESBA newsletter there is a lady beekeper collecting swarms in bait hives close to where I am 
They most likely come directly from a big bee operation and are whatever they chose to import that year are they polluting the gene pool? would they be local bees?.

In most years the drone pool will be controlled by the big operations, thats ok they wont be buying in rubbish queens etc, but they are geared up to their requirements, and for rape they choose Carniolans 
That means we get them as crosses
The numbers of queens sold to individuals with a couple of hive would be dwarfed thats why I don't critisise people if they want to do it but recently adds are all about imported AMM queens and "local" Welsh blacks AMM at £75-00 from open matings. 
What is driving that market for niche bees 
How will they maintain the bloodline once they buy them 

I'm off to the dog pound now to get a stray with soft fur and long ears, plus another with long legs will the puppies be just border collie lurcher crosses or could I convince myself they are Afgan hounds-----how about part Afgan Hound -- Quarter maybe?

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## Jon

Some of the Irish dog pounds have thoroughbreds!

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## Dark Bee

A "thoroughbred" is a breed of horse :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): . Thoroughbred Rescue is the place to which to go, if one wants to rescue one.
But may I say how encouraging it is, that you obviously have not wasted your youth at the racecourse or in the bookies!!!!

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## The Drone Ranger

> A "thoroughbred" is a breed of horse. Thoroughbred Rescue is the place to which to go, if one wants to rescue one.
> But may I say how encouraging it is, that you obviously have not wasted your youth at the racecourse or in the bookies!!!!


Thoroughbreds also available in smaller quantities at Tesco (and others)

Another thread on SBA link to BIBBA testing for AMM'ness
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-website/page2

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## mbc

> ... but recently adds are all about imported AMM queens and "local" Welsh blacks AMM at £75-00 from open matings.


In defense of open mated welsh amm on offer, many of the breeders (myself included) are careful in breeder queen selection and swamping isolated mating sites with selected drones.

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## The Drone Ranger

> In defense of open mated welsh amm on offer, many of the breeders (myself included) are careful in breeder queen selection and swamping isolated mating sites with selected drones.


Sorry bit harsh maybe
Good luck with it 

I just don't think it's a reasonable beekeeping proposition for most of the UK
If every commercial beekeeper with their thousands of hives each converted to NZ bred AMM that's the bees I would have and everyone would rejoice 
Having AMM bees is now high on many beekeepers wish list, often new beekeepers who are caught up in the romance of restoring our native bees
Sadly perhaps, the reality is they can't have them, and they will have hybrids like the rest of us and that's that.
 To quote a smartarse I used to work for "I take the world as I find it not how I wish it to be"

p.s.
I would challenge anyone to swamp Perthshire and Angus with any kind of drone

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## drumgerry

> Sadly perhaps, the reality is they can't have them, and they will have hybrids like the rest of us and that's that.


Not sure if I agree there DR.  There are plenty of places in Scotland where the commercial guys don't operate and where it's as feasible to keep AMM as anything else.  It's all about the choices you want to make where I live for example.

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## mbc

> I just don't think it's a reasonable beekeeping proposition for most of the UK
> If every commercial beekeeper with their thousands of hives each converted to NZ bred AMM that's the bees I would have and everyone would rejoice 
> Having AMM bees is now high on many beekeepers wish list, often new beekeepers who are caught up in the romance of restoring our native bees


Yes, I too find it strange some beekeepers fall into, the what I would call folly of, sourcing "native" amm from wherever, Greece, Ireland, Norway, France, Belgium or (dare I say it on the SBAi forum ?) Scotland ?!  They may be good bees, but they are only native to where they come from, anybody who wants a Welsh queen is deluded if they think they are adapted to anywhere but Wales, and the same applies to all and any localities.  
To my mind re-introduction of "native" bees is far less important than preserving locally adapted bees which have survived the test of time and the vagaries of the local beekeepers down the years.

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## drumgerry

So by that logic mbc if you keep Italians long enough in one place they're locally adapted?  I would argue that an AMM from the british isles brought to another part of the same adapts quicker and better to our usually very mixed seasons (not keen on imports AMM or not from the continent as I don't see that as a sustainable practice).  I'm of the view that in marginal parts of the country such as where I live an AMM type bee is going to cope better than say an Italian (no matter how long they've been here).  They'll fly in our marginal conditions and won't need fed to keep their huge colony alive when conditions go pear shaped, as they usually do, in mid-summer.  Locally adapted is fine but the basis of that bee has to have come from the right parentage in my opinion.  Feel free to disagree! :Wink:

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## drumgerry

Oh and I'll happily take a Welsh AMM queen (but not for £75!).  She'll have an easier time of it here on the dry east side of Scotland than in her usual stamping ground.  I would have no fears for her adapting to my conditions in short order.  One thing I would agree about would be that it's difficult if not impossible to keep "native" bees ie bees that have remained in your local area since the last Ice Age.  There's been too much to-ing and fro-ing for that to happen.  But an AMM based strain which suits your local conditions?  Absolutely!  With the proviso that this would be impossible in the absence of II where you have a commercial operation in the vicinity.

----------


## Calum

I'd love nothing more than a season at home in Scotland raising aam's.
Not going to happen any time soon though  :Frown:

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## fatshark

> They'll fly in our marginal conditions and won't need fed to keep their huge colony alive when conditions go pear shaped, as they usually do, in mid-summer.  Locally adapted is fine but the basis of that bee has to have come from the right parentage in my opinion.  Feel free to disagree!


Entirely unscientific observation ... I have several nucs and mini-nucs with Scottish-parentage dark bees and nucs/full hives with local mongrels. The dark bees were flying this afternoon (5oC max, sunny periods and cold, gusty, easterly wind), the rest were sulking. Of course, this might be due to colony temperature - the dark bees are all in polystyrene - but I doubt it. In my experience it is air temperature, not colony temperature that determines whether they fly. I have bees in a sheltered outbuilding with access to the outside. The room gets direct sunlight and can reach mid-teens centigrade but the bees don't fly until the air temp reaches 5-6oC. So, I agree with drumgerry ...

If this cold keeps up much longer I'll be getting a colony of Bombus polaris.

----------


## mbc

> So by that logic mbc if you keep Italians long enough in one place they're locally adapted?  n.  Feel free to disagree!


No disagreement, it was my unclear post, it should have read:
"To my mind re-introduction of "native" bees is far less important than preserving truly native bees which have survived the test of time in their locality and the vagaries of the local beekeepers down the years."
ie. originals in their own environment.

----------


## drumgerry

And when at this time of year foraging in lower temps like you mention Fatshark can mean the difference between life and death I'll take AMMs or AMM-ish's every time.  I'd be interested to hear other unscientific or scientific observations on this subject as well but maybe we're going a bit off-topic?

----------


## Jon

I suppose you have to define what you mean by local.
I would have no problem using AMM queens from anywhere on the island of Ireland.
The Galtee bees must be 200 miles south of me and lots of people in the North have stock derived from those queens and they do very well.
If there was nothing available locally I would have no problem with getting an AMM queen from Scotland or Wales but ideally I would stay more local.

http://goo.gl/maps/uG8XL

----------


## drumgerry

> No disagreement, it was my unclear post, it should have read:
> "To my mind re-introduction of "native" bees is far less important than preserving truly native bees which have survived the test of time in their locality and the vagaries of the local beekeepers down the years."
> ie. originals in their own environment.


OK mbc thanks for the clarification.   But I wonder if many originals in their own environment still exist.  I think there are plenty of AMM-type bees but I doubt whether many of the original region-specific sub-populations still exist.  As an example I knew (not very well) a beekeeper with maybe 40 or so colonies in the Inverness area and his stock was headed by queens descended from Bernard Mobus's Maud strain brought over from Aberdeenshire about 2hrs along the A96.  I'm sure this has been replicated the length and breadth of the country where there are still AMMs but are they the original AMMs?  It'd be interesting to hear Poly Hive's take on how far and wide Bernard's Maud queens were distributed.

----------


## Jon

> It'd be interesting to hear Poly Hive's take on how far and wide Bernard's Maud queens were distributed.


PH has a video showing AMM arriving at Craibstone from France sometime in the 1930s

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## drumgerry

> PH has a video showing AMM arriving at Craibstone from France sometime in the 1930s


Well there you go.  I wonder if their genetics were still around in Bernard's time.  It's things like that that wouldn't make me think twice about buying in a queen from Wales or Ireland or southern Scotland.  If there was good AMM stock available to me locally I'd prefer that of course.

----------


## Pete L

The Anatolian is very winter hardy,frugal with stores, and forage for pollen in colder weather than most bees by my observations, followed not too far behind by the AMM.

----------


## Jon

Check out the package at 1.06

----------


## Dark Bee

> I suppose you have to define what you mean by local.
> I would have no problem using AMM queens from anywhere on the island of Ireland.
> The Galtee bees must be 200 miles south of me and lots of people in the North have stock derived from those queens and they do very well.
> If there was nothing available locally I would have no problem with getting an AMM queen from Scotland or Wales but ideally I would stay more local.
> 
> http://goo.gl/maps/uG8XL


Pockets of AMM with varying degrees of purity continued to exist in many of the remoter parts of Shamrockshire. The harsher environment selected in their favour and against the imports from warmer climes. Some years ago an alcoholic entertainer imported vast quantities of Italian bees - there was of course a grant :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  . These failed to survive, whenever they collected a surplus, it was converted into brood and they would eat one out of house and home in the winter. 
Over the years the yellow bands have faded and the bees are reverting to their original dark colouring and more importantly perhaps, their behaviour is more or less typical of AMM.

----------


## drumgerry

That's some fantoosh feeder he's using at about 2.10!

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## mbc

> I wonder if many originals in their own environment still exist.  I think there are plenty of AMM-type bees but I doubt whether many of the original region-specific sub-populations still exist.


No bee population can remain static and the same as the originals, they are all constantly evolving.  My thoughts on a good "native" queen is that she has captured a snapshot in time of the local gene pool in the multitude of drones she has mated with.

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## Jon

mbc
I would guess that if we swapped queens they would likely do well in either location as I am guessing that our bees cope with wet windy and cool conditions better than some others.

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## drumgerry

I'd imagine the original sub-population that evolved here to cope with cold, snowy winters and drier than the west summers (because of the Cairngorms which catch most of the rain you know!) are long gone unfortunately.  And no local source of good AMM breeding stock especially given the current fetish for Buckfasts about 20 miles north of me.

Interestingly John Durkacz recently sent me a poster advertising a bee farmer who operated about 5 miles from my house during the 30s and 40s.  I just wonder what bees he had and whether they might have been "originals".

----------


## Dark Bee

> The Anatolian is very winter hardy,frugal with stores, and forage for pollen in colder weather than most bees by my observations, followed not too far behind by the AMM.


Gavin made a very pertinent observation earlier ( as did Bridget some days ago); some breeds of bees may well be able to withstand cold temperatures and poor foraging conditions but will succumb to dampness. The Carniolian was introduced to Ireland on a number of occasions but displayed an extraordinary propensity to contract nosema - something that did not happen in it's native land. I often thought that the damp climate was the reason or at least a contributary factor, it is possible that other bee breeds would be similarly effected.

----------


## Jon

DB
We had a guy up north imported Slovenian carnica queens for a while but they did not seem to do well.
He put an ad in one of the bee magazines - Irish Carnica for Easy handling! was the strapline. Obviously the Magazine existed in a limbo where the trade descriptions act does not apply.

Other than AMM and assorted mongrels the only other stuff anyone keeps here is Buckfast.

----------


## Dark Bee

> DB
> ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  .............................
> Other than AMM and assorted mongrels the only other stuff anyone keeps here is Buckfast.


Buckfast bees seem to be going through a phase of popularity at this time. More to do with fastbucks than anything else, I suspect. They'll not be popular for long once they start crossing with local drones :Cool: . We have had the odd colony turn up here from time to time - the originals were normally quite docile but the offspring were the most agressive bees I have encountered, pinging off the veil in an attempt to get to ones eyes and then stinging everything that moved within a 200 yds. radius or so from the hive.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

It was an amazing achievement by Brother Adam to have created and stabilised a new breed of bee
Even in a population of chickens to create a new breed is monumental achievement.
The thing both these have in common is that the breeding program moves in a forward direction by selecting from the new genetic mixtures

mbc I think is right you can't reasonably expect to breed backwards to the original UK black bee any more than we can recreate a Neanderthal from the genes which are present in all of us.

----------


## drumgerry

> mbc I think is right you can't reasonably expect to breed backwards to the original UK black bee any more than we can recreate a Neanderthal from the genes which are present in all of us.


But why is it breeding backwards DR?  There are AMM populations all over the place.  Maybe not the AMM populations that were originally there but AMM nevertheless - and I don't think for one minute they are all based on imports from France or the like.  I really don't subscribe to Bro Adam's view that Acarine killed all the AMMs off.

----------


## Jon

DR
I agree that the concept of backbreeding is a fallacy and I also agree that the chance of finding 'pure' AMM like something which may have existed on these islands 500 years ago is slight due to introgression of genetic material from waves of imports in the last 150 years.

But anyhow, there has always been overlap between the ranges of the different bee subspecies in Europe so the idea of having some interbreeding where the ranges overlap is not unusual.

The way to go if you are interested in AMM/native bees is to start with the best/purest stock possible and just keep breeding to improve it based on normal selection criteria such as gentleness and hardiness.
Obviously you need to control matings the best you can which is why it is good to get a group of like minded people working together in the same area.
If you start with something which has a minimal percentage of AMM genetics you have not got a mission of creating AMM by backbreeding.
You might get a lookalike after a while but whether this will breed true is anyone's guess.
This also applies to wings which is the big risk of you select breeders fundamentally on wing venation. Bad idea.
I think the term 'Buckfast' is used more loosely now than in Bro Adam's day.

----------


## drumgerry

Well if by breeding backwards DR you mean trying to recreate some halcyon version of Britain's bees I'd be tempted to put a less negative slant on it.  I'd say that instead probably the best bee for our dodgy summers is one based on AMM and that it's not an unreasonable proposition to therefore breed for it (with no rose tinted spectacles on) in the best way we can in our various localities.  For some of us (such as yourself) in the heart of commercial beekeeper land that might be an almost impossible task but for others such as myself where beekeepers are spread far and wide it's a less onerous task if approached in the right way.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon
Buckfast bees stopped being produced after Bro Adam, and other breeders took the bees and bred their version of Buckfast

I have some Black Rock chickens , I bought them from Peter Siddons Hatchery in Scotland. They are specific cross of two line bred parents One line is barred rock and the other Rhode Island reds. They are very good hardy, healthy, long lived, good layers etc.

Lots of breeders imitate this bird. They take a Barred Rock and cross it with a Rhode island Red. they then sell the result as Black Rocks which they most certainly are not.
Many years of line breeding went into producing the parent stock for Peter Siddons birds (initially in South Africa I believe) and he has the only parent stock

So the Black Rock lookalike has no real relationship to the genuine article and often none of the desirable qualities.
Genetically for the most part they may be close (but no cigar) , the vital elements are missing

Just because something looks and acts like an AMM pure bred bee doesn't make it good in itself it takes more than that
So as you say breeding a new high quality, healthy, honey gathering, gentle,frugal bee is the holy grail  -- good luck with that  :Smile: 

Ps Drumgerry you are right I wouldn't attempt a breeding program here but might in your position

----------


## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;16997]It was an amazing achievement by Brother Adam to have created and stabilised a new breed of
bee...............................................  ..................................................  ............

It is unfortunately impossible to get a reasoned answer (or even a polite answer!) from those who favour this bee. There is no doubt that Bro. Adam was a talented bee breeder, but as he was by his own admission forever crossing what he had with new breeds/strains, how can the resulting offspring be described as a breed? In fact it cannot be described as a hybred, as this implies it was the result of crossing two pure strains. A close look at the drones will show that no two are identical - hardly a characteristic of a breed pure or nearly so! 
My understanding is that his breeding apiary was abandoned and vandalised, so where is stock coming from now? My view, and I would be delighted to be proved wrong, is that any mixed race bees which are reasonably docile are "Buckfasts" and the motivation is "fastbucks".
I shall always regret not having taken the opportunity to meet Bro. Adam and hear what he had to say about beekeeping in general and especially his own beebreeding.

PS. just seen D.R.'s other post above - I type too slowly :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Pete L

[QUOTE=Dark Bee;17003]


> My understanding is that his breeding apiary was abandoned and vandalised


Nothing was vandalized, the beehouse and mating hives are still there.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Pete L

I did read that breeding was to resume at Buckfast Abbey a couple of years ago.

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## Pete L

> Hi Pete L
> 
> I did read that breeding was to resume at Buckfast Abbey a couple of years ago.


No breeding is likely to resume at Buckfast Abbey, they only have a few hives, which are used for training new beekeepers/courses. BA used to give away a queen to some of those who attended his meetings, and others in the area, and well before he died he made sure the genetic material was in good hands.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Dark Bee
I haven't got any Buckfast bees
I have read Brother Adams books and he was a very dedicated person whom I respect
In any breeding program fixing the traits is difficult all the more so in bees I think
If someone tried to keep Buckfast bees in my area they would have to source them and next generations would be crossed by the drones in this region

There are some people on this forum who in years to come may achieve similar results it's a long and hard road
when they are deciding which traits they are trying to fix they may well choose to ignore colour and address other qualities first
Eventually colour can become a fixed trait almost as a by product

I'm not a bee breeder so wouldn't give advice on the best approach
The lesson from chicken breeding though is that when experts stopped breeding for utility, and started breeding for feather,leg colour etc, they bred beautiful useless birds and the hybrid bird dominates all egg production now

----------


## Black Comb

Another one. Swarmed last May, Q mated quite quickly given weather. Started to build up well but they superseded her in August and the new Q laid very little. Ran out of bees eventually.

----------


## Feckless Drone

Check of colonies yesterday revealed I've lost 3 nucs (in polys), and 1 hive. Plenty of stores but ran out of bees, isolated starvation and coupled with the harshness of out apiaries up in the hills just found it too difficult. Still 3-4 inches snow/ice in the apiary and could not get the car close to the site. My plan was to have these backup Qs into spring and maybe watch them grow - but I really should have united in august. The pm revealed no brood present at all, 1 had attempted supercedure, mouse damage on 1 frame in another, nothing obvious in the other two. Qs were dead easy to spot! A few of the frames in the hive were mouldy so I've just burned them, but perhaps an indication of damp as a contributor? 

The hive I lost had a Q that I particularly liked - came from stock which has the kind of tendencies we would all aim for but she stopped laying in August and I never saw any significant brood after that. This colony was located in a site with limited late forage so maybe better moved. 

But - three hives still going, 2 with 5-6 seams of bees, 1 with 3. Few bees flying from the colonies and a few dropping onto the snow. These are 2012 Qs so fingers crossed for good performance in the next couple of months. I've got to plan for expansion and breeding but for my main site I can only put strong colonies into winter. Planning for that starts round about July I guess. So - learning about sites and perhaps I should be more conservative in terms of getting colonies ready for winter.

Some of the frames from the lost nucs were drawn out last year have alot of sealed stores present - would you use these to build up other colonies and if so any action required before use? Would these frames be better used to help make up mating nucs?

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## Jon

> Plenty of stores but ran out of bees, isolated starvation


Same as many, myself included, are seeing this winter. Dwindle followed by starvation or freezing.



> A few of the frames in the hive were mouldy so I've just burned them, but perhaps an indication of damp as a contributor?


lack of bees leads to mouldy frames as well as the outer frames are unoccupied, cold and damp.




> The hive I lost had a Q that I particularly liked - came from stock which has the kind of tendencies we would all aim for but she stopped laying in August and I never saw any significant brood after that. This colony was located in a site with limited late forage so maybe better moved.


A lot of queens shut down earlier than usual last season which is linked to the dwindle 




> Some of the frames from the lost nucs were drawn out last year have alot of sealed stores present - would you use these to build up other colonies and if so any action required before use? Would these frames be better used to help make up mating nucs?


Either use is fine but it would be as well to get rid of any possible nosema spores by freezing for a while or treating with 80% acetic acid fumes for a week in a closed container.

You are doing ok to have a few decent colonies at this stage as I know quite a few people who have lost all, or almost all, of their colonies this winter. It will be interesting to see the stats for the regions as it seems particularily bad in NI this winter compared to the previous one where losses were minimal.

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## Neils

They're still hanging in there, I stupidly forgot the keys to the allotment, but off the back of this hive in another site I didn't feel too inclined to rush back to the get the keys to check the others out. They don't have polycarbonate crownboards for a kick off and this one still has plenty of fondant left.

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## EmsE

Checked 6 of the colonies today and found my first winter loss :Frown:  the bees were surrounded by plenty of stores but there just weren't the number of bees needed. The queen was raised last June and my initial thoughts are that she was a poorly mated queen. There was no brood in the colony and only about a cup full of dead bees.
On the plus side, the other colonies seem to be really picking up. Too cold to pull frames out, but a quick glimpse under the crown boards looked positive. Just one colony still to check.

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## fatshark

One hive now lost (or near as makes no difference, but too cold to check whether they still have a queen) which, together with a mini nuc and a nuc, makes three in total. Warmest day so far and pollen and water being collected busily. Added Neopoll to the nucs, mini nucs and hives I intend to be building up and/or breeding from this year.

Remaining mini nucs look good and I think I may have a solution to overwintering these in a more sheltered spot for next year.

Spring feels almost ready to start ... finally.

----------


## Calum

I sold a chap from feldkirch in Austria some colonies at the weekend. He reported 60% average club winter losses. We compaired notes on varroa treatments. They never ever did a winter oxalic treatment. So that's the Austrian ccd explained right there (there is no official recommendation to do it).
I hope people in the Orkney isles read this.

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## Jimbo

What treatments did they do then?

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## Calum

Just drone brood removal, and formic acid (or equivalent) in the autumn.

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## Jimbo

If just drone brood removal and everybody does this then there is the possibility of poor queen mating. If you then have a poor summer and the Formic has reduced effect due to cooler temperatures you could be creating future problems and large colony losses

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Calum

There is another thread on here about the winter losses survey where Formic Acid treatment was raised 
I wonder if you have had any experience of using it and whether it is effective
What method do beekeepers in Germany use when applying it?

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## Calum

> If just drone brood removal and everybody does this then there is the possibility of poor queen mating.


most people just take the first three frames, then leave one in, at lest from the better performing colonies.




> If you then have a poor summer and the Formic has reduced effect due to cooler temperatures you could be creating future problems and large colony losses


That or as happened this year the colonies stayed in brood well into november so were well laden. Either way the temperature needs to be right. The Oxalic treatment in the (brood free) winter period should mop up the rest.

From my 27 colonies I lost 2, so the system is not perfect, but better than doing nothing.
I treat with 60% Formic acid on a foam mat treating from above with 2ml / frame.schwammtuch-regular.jpg
Oxalic a warmed solution with sugar applied 30-50ml / colony.
This link is the description of the whole package recommended (in German but interesting pictures and diagrams for anyone else). I can translate most anything google cannot

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## snimmo243

Just to add my name to the list I lost 1 of my 2 colonies last week more worryingly for me is that it was my young queen I lost (this was her second winter) leaving me with my 4 year old queen, I just hope she is still laying well enough to allow me to split and replace her

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## gavin

That's a fair old age for a queen.  Is she marked?

You might find that the bees decide to supersede her.  Probably best for them if the colony hasn't got to that bursting at the seams stage when they will make queen cells for swarming.

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## Jon

I have a queen grafted in June 2010 marked and clipped which has come through 3 winters now and has never swarmed so I plan to graft a few from this one asap.

I also found a decent strength colony at the association apiary today which I might be able to get to cell raiser strength by the end of May.
Funny thing is, this one is headed by a queen which was from a queen cell the bees made in the top box which I missed. A virgin queen emerged which tore down a frame of grafted queen cells. I remember I had to dismantle a colony which had 2 supers and a brood box full of bees to find her.
Feeling generous, as opposed to squashing the killer queen, I stuck her in an apidea with a few bees and she subsequently mated and was introduced to a nuc in August.

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## prakel

Oh dear, quoting myself again.....




> I wonder how many people are going to find themselves regretting ordering early April queens at £30-£40 each; not to mention the damage that splits may well cause if reports of 'small' colonies are indeed fair representation of the general state of things.


I see the first offer of an Argentine queen (paid for last year) has been made on the big forum; purchaser hasn't (any longer) got the bees to use it. I'm sure that there will be many more people in similar positions before the month's out.

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## Jon

A few of us involved in queen rearing groups locally have ordered and pre paid for Galtee queens but that is for July delivery and the idea is to overwinter them to use as grafting candidates in 2014. I even ordered one myself and I have never bought a queen before. There were a dozen in the order.
The big problem this year is going to be lack of bees to make up colonies rather than lack of queens.
We have already held a couple of meetings in my BKA to try and address how we are going to supply all the new beekeepers with nucs this year.

I always advocate overwintering nucs to have spare bees to sort out possible problems in spring but I lost most of the nucs I was overwintering and others here have had the same problem.

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## prakel

Totally sold on the idea of overwintering nucs -even if they are lost during the course of late Autumn-Spring at least an effort has been made to build a sustainable (credit: Mike Palmer) apiary. I see it a little like sowing broad beans in October. I may or may not get a crop off of them, but if I don't sow them I definately won't be picking early beans.

I also understand (and agree with) the idea of pre ordering breeding material for Summer delivery, my original post on this subject was aimed at highlighting the potential problems with pre ordering April queens on the assumption that the Spring weather is going to be just perfect. I remember discussing the import of Argentine queens into the UK with the owner of a major company in that country (no, I wasn't buying, it was just a general discussion which started with him buying a spare copy of the Swarthmore Papers from me) and he stated quite clearly that it was only cost effective to ship single batches of 300+ to the UK*.

*EDIT: A cross reference on the other forum would suggest that the person I refer to may well have got the shipping down to a minimum of 100 queens in one batch.

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## Jon

I am against imports in principle because of the risk of introducing a new disease and the problems caused by constantly stirring up the gene pool with different races. Hobby beekeepers preordering queens from Argentina is not a responsible course of action in my book.
I can understand the idea of a limited number of breeder queens being imported by specialist bee breeders but am not 100% convinced of the need for that either.
Every BKA should be promoting local queen rearing. Some do but many don't bother.
Bringing in thousands of queens for hobby beekeepers, or worse still, packages or nucs will sooner or later give us a new bee disease.

----------


## prakel

Agreed (mainly). The way I see it is that if we have imports then fair enough, we need to live with the risk -which arguably _might_ actually be less than if imports were forced into an underground black market environment. I do think however that if imports were to be banned then it should be a total ban, no exceptions for those who have the right 'ear'.

edit: half a ban is no ban.

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## prakel

> Every BKA should be promoting local queen rearing. Some do but many don't bother.


I never understand why so many beekeepers shy away from trying to produce their own queens -again, I'm not dismissing buying in good stock but surely there's a lot of satisfaction that can be gained from queen rearing which will simply 'round out' the hobby. 

I wonder who actually supports the market for DIY queen rearing books?

----------


## Jon

At a recent meeting where queen rearing workshops were being planned I made the point that hundreds of beekeepers keep on attending these courses but very few are going home and rearing their own queens - either individually or in groups.
The workshops in places like Gormanston are packed out every year but they seem to be treated by beekeepers as entertainment rather than preparation for real word queen rearing.
Something is not working with this approach.

----------


## madasafish

Having started beekeeping three years ago, - and not raised any of my own queens yet - I will comment as follows:

There are LOTS of ways promulgated to raise queens. Many - grafting for example - require More equipment and lots of fiddling about.
There does not seem to be an accepted and easy way promulgated for beekeepers for little experience.

As a result, I read about lots of different methods - have to discard those that cost too much in time , equipment, effort and complexity - and choose a simpler method - which is basically splitting.. Based on the weather last year - when I wanted to split - I could not as it was raining/cold or very windy.


So in my view:
a simple method to be taught.
and weather to be good..

And of course splitting often means losing a honey harvest.. so you need ideally 4 or more hives....

HTH.

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## Jon

madasafish.
Grafting _is_ a simple method and the total outlay to graft say a dozen at a time would be under £15.

Frame £2
12 base cups £4
12 cup holders £4
12 cups 50p
000 sable paintbrush £2

Time to graft a dozen larvae. 5 minutes.

If you don't want to split and lose a honey harvest graft into the top box above the queen excluder, ie use a queenright queenrearing system.
The supers stay in the middle.
Details of Ben Harden method are on the Dave Cushman site.

You can do this as a single hive owner.

----------


## madasafish

jon

I forgot to add: my eyesight - even with varifocals is poor at close distances! :-(

But thanks
I will try..

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## Jon

Being short sighted actually helps.
My eyesight is terrible and I always graft with my glasses off.
Being able to focus so close is a great advantage.

----------


## drumgerry

The Harden method is a doddle.  Never fails to amaze me that people don't want to or think they can't rear their own queens.  It's really not difficult - the bees do most of the work!

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## The Drone Ranger

Snelgrove board simple queen rearing

----------


## Neils

Well I'm sat at the allotment apiary and it doesn't look good. The two I didn't expect to make it didn't. Simply not enough bees. The nuc is down to a handful and I can't see the queen. Two look like they've died from nosema, at least there are signs of dysentery on the top bars, I'll post some pics later. I've stuck a frame of emerging brood with stores into the Nuc anyway just to see if there's any chance it can bounce back but I'm not normally so bad that I can't spot a queen on a single frame of bees. They do have a little patch of sealed brood though and it does appear to be worker.

The one remaining hive, however, looks pretty good. Seven frames of brood, mostly eggs, and a couple of weeks away from needing a super.

Not a disaster, but not the start I wanted, obviously.

----------


## gavin

> Snelgrove board simple queen rearing


LOL!  Five word Fridays.  More or less a tweet.  Showed some beginners a Snelgrove board today.  I know a man who likes them, and as we regularly beekeep together I'll be hearing all about them.  Two-veil Forida once explained to me how they work (very clearly) but that was years ago and I've forgotten.

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## gavin

Pity.  That strong one will have picked up some of the bees that should have been in the other boxes and will reward that extra strength by allowing you several splits to populate your empty boxes.  Put a second brood box on before the super.

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## fatshark

First inspection and last of the winter losses I hope ... a hive that clearly went queenless at some point and the bees just dwindled away. There was a little evidence of Nosema but they've left at least six frames of sealed stores.  

Can I treat this with acetic acid and then feed back to nucs? It seems a waste just to melt it all out in the steamer ... UPDATE ... answered my own question Acetic acid does not affect wax or stores so they are safe to return to bees, with help from Google and the NBU.

On a brighter note, the remaining hives are all going very well and I've got some mini-nucs that have overwintered better than standard five/six frame nucs. As determined by numbers of bees and amount of brood at this stage.

Just going back to give syrup to the colonies I've started a Bailey comb change on ... which will release all that manky old comb just in time for the bait hives and swarming season  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

Neils are you down to one hive now ??

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.stamfordham.biz/
These guys sell a Horsley board £22-50 if you don't want to make one

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## Neils

> Neils are you down to one hive now ??


I think i have two at the moment. If I squint through my rosé tinted glasses I have three.  1 definite, 1 should do ok, 1 pipe dream.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I think i have two at the moment. If I squint through my rosé tinted glasses I have three.  1 definite, 1 should do ok, 1 pipe dream.


Neils 
You don't need my advice, but if it was me ,I would do as Gavin suggested and put a second broodbox on the strong one
I would fill it with drawn combs from the failed hives 
If your worried about nosema leave them a couple of hours each side in sunlight to sterilise
Make a Snelgrove board (unless you have one) I grudge buying one they are £30 
The Horsley board at £22-50 is a fairer price because they are trickier to make.

You have to watch the hive carefully because they must not have started swarming preparations of any kind before you introduce a swarm board.
When there is a nectar flow and you see drones you can go through the brood boxes and rearrange the combs

The queen needs to be in the bottom box with a small amount of open brood to march over,some drawn combs to lay in and some foundation 
All the sealed brood and the rest of the open brood in the top box with _food and pollen combs_ that's important
Put a queen excluder between the two boxes for 1 day

The bees are now sorted out ready for the Snelgrove board
Get Snelgrove's book because you will want it rather than my long winded explanation

With the bees now sorted out lift the top box off 
Put one or two drawn supers on the queen excluder over the bottom box
Put the Snelgrove board on the top of the supers
Put the upper broodbox on the Snelgrove board and open a door to give the bees an entrance/exit from top box
Follow Snelgrove's instructions regards opening and closing upper and lower doors to keep redirecting bees to the bottom boxes
The timings don't need to be exact but don't change entrances after about day 11 (from splitting boxes)

Pin something white and waterproof as a landing strip under the entrance being used by the top box
The Virgin Queen from the top box will hatch and fly in and out that entrance
 (you won't want to risk her going into your supers by mistake or worse still into the bottom box)
Why bother -- well you keep all the bees together and increase your chances of honey-- you will be controlling swarming --you will get a new queen-you won't keep opening the hive and disturbing the bees mojo

Something to watch -- the top box doesn't have any field bees it will start with plenty food and pollen but might run out

Anyone with only one hive is on the brink and a swarm board is a relatively safe split which should give you two by the end

Long post which I think most people will ignore because we all like to do it our own way  :Smile:

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## gavin

What I would do is similar to that but essentially a Demaree left to make its own queen cells.  In other words I would follow DR's programme until the point he mentions 'Snelgrove' (!) from which point - if you waited until the two boxes were quite strong - the bees just do it themselves.

Then I normally slip in a three-way board as described ....

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...ing-the-splits

and

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...full=1#post318

Probably makes more sense to turn that split board so that the middle one faces 180 degrees away from the old entrance.

Or, when the top box makes Q cells, just split the box into three nuc boxes, each with a good Q cell.  Remember to over-provision the three splits (in one box or three) with young bees to counter the effect of drifting home to mum.

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## Neils

The _strong_ hive isn't strong enough for a super at the moment, let alone a second brood box, I'm on 14x12 boxes too. Looking at it yesterday, it will be bursting with bees in a couple of weeks though, it was very clear going through it yesterday that I'd caught them just as the queen was going into full lay. Of the  7 frames of brood, 4-5 was eggs.

I have all the combs on acetic acid at the moment and will go through them when that is done to see what's still usable.

Another option that sprang to mind and ill mention just to put it on the table, is simply not to super them at all and force them to swarm, but double brooding them to begin with is a better option.

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## Jon

> Why bother -- well you keep all the bees together and increase your chances of honey-- you will be controlling swarming --you will get a new queen-you won't keep opening the hive and disturbing the bees mojo
> 
> Something to watch -- the top box doesn't have any field bees it will start with plenty food and pollen but might run out
> 
> Anyone with only one hive is on the brink and a swarm board is a relatively safe split which should give you two by the end
> 
> Long post which I think most people will ignore because we all like to do it our own way


That all makes sense and so does Gavin's method as you should get a honey crop as well.
My queenright queen rearing setup is quite similar.
I let the top box make a couple of batches of queen cells which go into apideas, then I split it into 2 nucs each of which has a ripe queen cell or better still a mated queen if I have some spare.

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## gavin

> .... I'm on 14x12 boxes too.


I'd forgotten that.  It means, of course, that not much of the above will apply.  There must be few stocks which will happily extend their brood nest beyond one of those and across another brood box.  Unless Bristol is different (which it might be).

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## Neils

This particular one might, but not by much I'd suspect.

I might simply not super them to encourage them to think about swarming, split the brood into two, perhaps even 3, Nucs and take it from there. This isn't a great hive temperament wise so I'm not that keen on raising queens off it, but I might be able to get my hands on some better local queens later in the year.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Snelgrove board simple queen rearing


That was my first version
Second post took much longer won't make that mistake again  :Smile:

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## gavin

If you can predict when it might raise queen cells (keeping in one box would help as you suggest, eggs in cups is a good time, or immediately after you have knocked down the first batch it made  :Smile:  ) then you have the option of introducing a prepared frame of eggs from a colony you like.

Cut through a frame of eggs (or young larvae) 2/3 down the frame and discard the lower part.  Use a match or similar to destroy two then open up the third cell along the cut edge, repeating along the cut.  With luck you will get a nice row of Q cells in a position easy to cut out (when in their last couple of days before hatching) to distribute to nucs. 

A strong colony of 11 frames of 14x12 should yield 3fr+3frfr+3fr nucs and two frames for the mother colony (and mother).

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## The Drone Ranger

will you get honey with nuc splits??

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## Jon

Neil, with your larger frames, the Ben Harden system might work better with the top box holding just 5 or 6 frames and a large dummy frame at each end. I would put the supers in between the two boxes rather than above as shown in the diagram. The thing about rearing queens is as much about density of the bees as the total amount of bees. 5 frames packed with young bees would easily be able to make a dozen good queen cells.

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## prakel

> The thing about rearing queens is as much about density of the bees as the total amount of bees. 5 frames packed with young bees would easily be able to make a dozen good queen cells.


Joe Latshaw has written (Beesource) that he himself now uses a queenless 5 comb starter for two rounds of cells (45-54 at a time).

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## Neils

Promised a few photos (as ever click for full sized image):

First look when opening up.


Queen found  :Frown: 


Now, I do wonder about this, there were a lot of frames like this with a lot of unsealed stores so i do wonder whether I might be overlooking a more obvious cause in fermented stores. I just can't see that there were enough bees or forage for that matter for this to be new nectar in the quantity that was there.


And so as not to end on a downer, the one surviving queen on the allotment apiary.

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## Adam

Neil,
Is that red really red?
(The year of the queen I mean?)

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## The Drone Ranger

lovely marking job though 
Wish I was as neat  :Smile:

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## Neils

> Neil,
> Is that red really red?
> (The year of the queen I mean?)



No, far too lazy for that. She's a 2012 queen. I have a bottle of red and a white pen somewhere and they get marked with whatever I have to hand at the time.




> lovely marking job though 
> Wish I was as neat


I might be wrong, but I thought this was her last summer just after I marked her. If not this one's far more indicative of how they usually end up

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## The Drone Ranger

Usually I have one little dot on the back which wears away to a faint stain during the season  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> No!  None.  Eleven hives went into winter and eleven are still there (for now).  ... thought I've lost a hive.  No sign of life, ....


Update:  I've known for some time now that I was wrong and that the hive I had feared was dead was indeed dead.  I think I must have seen robber bees coming and going from that hive on that one fine day in February.  Apart from taking that hive apart, I haven't yet opened any of my other hives but they all seem fine.  I have transparent crown boards and can see that they're all occupied - even on non-flying days.  So I lost one out of eleven - living on this exposed site, that's perhaps not too bad.
Kitta

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## kevboab

For winter I doubled most of my colonies up so I had 4 huge colonies going to bed and another fair sized colony with a newly mated queen (though hadnt seen eggs/brood late on).  This colony failed to make it theough so guessing she was a dud. Three of my four large colonies have survived and those three are in great shape absolutely bursting with bees, bias and stores so queen rearing for this season is just around the corner. Im a happy chappy.

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## kevboab

At our association apiary we have a huge colony with drone layer which has now been dealt with, another colony transferred to a nuc to ensure its survival and one dead. Two outa three aint bad, that could be a good song title.

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## The Drone Ranger

I thought I had 14 going into winter but that was 15
14 came through winter
6 are very small so that's bad
8 are reasonable or better so that's good
2 of the 8 have chalk brood not good
6 are very healthy and doing well
Now it remains to be seen which ones gather most honey and have nice nature

Three people have asked me for bees this year so far but I can't help
I think that's a problem for most 'ordinary' beekeepers like me

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## snimmo243

I got a reply from SASA about the colony I lost a few weeks ago - no Nosema - Trace Acarine - Varroa damage evident and contributing factor to loss, I find this disheartening, last year I dusted them with icing sugar and carried out drone brood removal, then used Apiguard, then Oxalic! To compound matters it looks increasingly like my surviving colony/queen is a drone layer  :Frown: 
Back to square 1

Steven

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## The Drone Ranger

> I got a reply from SASA about the colony I lost a few weeks ago - no Nosema - Trace Acarine - Varroa damage evident and contributing factor to loss, I find this disheartening, last year I dusted them with icing sugar and carried out drone brood removal, then used Apiguard, then Oxalic! To compound matters it looks increasingly like my surviving colony/queen is a drone layer 
> Back to square 1
> 
> Steven


Hi Steven
It's a pain !! 
Is there any normal brood or is it all drones ?

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## Bridget

> I got a reply from SASA about the colony I lost a few weeks ago - no Nosema - Trace Acarine - Varroa damage evident and contributing factor to loss, I find this disheartening, last year I dusted them with icing sugar and carried out drone brood removal, then used Apiguard, then Oxalic! To compound matters it looks increasingly like my surviving colony/queen is a drone layer 
> Back to square 1
> 
> Steven


Steven - I twice emailed the SASA about a month ago as I wanted them to check the colony I lost but no reply from them.  I still have some little corpses in the freezer so do you have an email address for your contact there?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## snimmo243

Hi Drone Ranger
I looked yesterday there was one or two cells of ordinary brood but mostly drones also eggs on the sides of cells and outside cells, I saw the queen but as I said in a previous post she is 4 years old! Big lesson learned! The hard way!
I have put a deposit down on a nuc from the beeman in Dumfries so it looks like I will be without bees until June, and I'm doing the basic beemaster too!

With regards to SASA I put my sample in a paper envelope, put that inside another envelope and enclosed a self addressed stamped envelope and covering note and sent it to the address in the SBA magazine

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## Trog

Bridget, I've PMd you with the address.  It's always somewhere in the 'Scottish Beekeeper' mag and probably on the SBA website but I've not had time to check! Oh, and if you give them your email address you get an even quicker reply!

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## Neils

I'm calling 4 out of 6 in total. The scare that the strongest was showing dysentery appears to be coming from a neighbouring hive and it continues to build up. I've given it a litre of thymol syrup just in case. 

The Nuc I should really have cut my losses on but after two frames of emerging brood were added they now have enough bees that the mystery unmarked queen has started laying, I say mystery because there was a marked queen in there when I stopped inspecting in September. I'll continue to boost this one from the other until its strong enough to be hived properly and take it from there.

The pleasant surprise is my colony in my nature reserve site. That nearly croaked last year but built up enough to overwinter and looks to be doing well. It had a bad chalk brood problem that I thought might be damp related so moved them off a couple of pallets onto a higher stand and that seems to have done the job. There were 2-3 obvious cells of chalk brood across 5 frames of brood, I can live with that quantity.

While not the start I wanted I can recover from this and should have two hives bringing in some honey come July.

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## Trog

The forecast for tomorrow (and only tomorrow) indicates we may manage our first spring inspection!   Trouble is, there are a lot of other things scheduled for 'when it stops raining', but bees will take priority this time, I think, as who knows when we'll be able to take a look at them again?

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## Bridget

> The forecast for tomorrow (and only tomorrow) indicates we may manage our first spring inspection!   Trouble is, there are a lot of other things scheduled for 'when it stops raining', but bees will take priority this time, I think, as who knows when we'll be able to take a look at them again?


Yup it will be my first priority tomorrow as well.  A pity I will be doing it alone as there is a lot to be done but hey ho at last my first inspection this year will be done.  Had good temps. today but decided with the forecast for tomorrow and today's strong wind to defer.  HTG I'm right

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## nemphlar

A little late to be still talking about winter losses, had a suspicion the lack of winter breeding might lead to a late crash. Lost 1 due to starvation 1 frame from a box of candy, 1 more where I found the queen dead isolated under the duvet. 6with up to 6 frames, curiously frames of bees are matched by brood frames.
2 nucs I'd set up with spare queens late on last year had survived 1 with a half frame of bees and a little patch of brood, the other with about 40 bees and a little patch of eggs, added a mug full of bees to the tiny one, love trier.
Any other year I might have blamed the quality of the queens or nosema, but I've never seen a year where the queens stopped laying so early and restarted so late. I think the thymol treatment late on might be a factor

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## prakel

> Any other year I might have blamed the quality of the queens or nosema, but I've never seen a year where the queens stopped laying so early and restarted so late. I think the thymol treatment late on might be a factor


Interesting thought.

--------------------------

I notice that poly hive's blog off May 9th reported 





> I heard last night that there are massive losses amongst the commercial bee men in Scotland. 
> 
> Colonies are still dying off from the winter weather and losses of over 90% were quoted.


Poor matings are blamed




> It is the colonies which were headed by the queens mated or rather not properly mated in 2012 that are failing.


which suggests that at least 90% of all colonies on at least one bee farm experienced queen replacement with inefficiently mated queens.

Incredible figures.

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## nemphlar

The hives I looked at tonight have large consistent frames of brood, late but no drone layers and at this moment appear to be making up for lost time to the max the bees can cover. So the Queens now seem to be doing ok and poor mating last year can't be blamed for poor winter breeding in my case

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## gavin

> Incredible figures.


Yes, aren't they!  I'm keeping a paternal eye on a beginner in the same area - two colonies into winter, two semi-decent colonies coming out of it.

How can someone making his living from bees do so much worse than that?  And why would he be replacing almost all of his queens?

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## Jon

I heard a report of a guy (in Scotland) who has 20 left out of 2000.

It has been a once in a lifetime bad winter.
I have lost far more than usual and many people I know have lost all their colonies.

Funny thing is it is patchy. There are people who have lost 12/12 and others maybe 1/12.
We do not have any commercial beekeepers here in NI. Someone with 20 colonies is a major player!

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## prakel

> I heard a report of a guy (in Scotland) who has 20 left out of 2000.


If that's right (not questioning you Jon, but rather the source; there are a lot of old wives and gossips in the bee game) then that's just incredible. That could be a quarter of the infamous 200 000K spoken for by one firm -if they're able to match it of course.

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## fatshark

Thought I'd had the last of my winter casualties on Saturday when I fumbled and dropped a triple-decker overwintered mini-nuc. Pandemonium. All 15 frames scattered about. Oops. However, checking today found (and marked) the queen and transferred the lot into a 'proper' nuc. Good job  :Smile:

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## Bridget

So 10 days after first inspection one colony has increased 1/3rd and the other decreased 1/3rd. The decreased is down to 2 seams and v little stores, pollen, brood.  I'm feeding 1/1 syrup but they are not taking much.  Should I go back to fondant and pollen patties to help build them up.  The queen is still young, last year and laid well then.  They were a strong colony going into winter and pretty good all through the winter.  Any ideas?  I'm still a beginner so any thoughts welcome.  It may be that there has been a slow build up of new brood and big loss of old bees.

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## fatshark

If there's lots of space in the hive/nuc then fill it up with insulation, plus a big block under the roof. I think the rate limiting step now is keeping the developing brood nest warm. If there are too few bees they'll never keep the new brood warm. If necessary pack out the space behind a dummy board with bubble wrap.

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## nemphlar

My experience this year has been that a blink of sun and some pollen even the very small survivors started laying. It's very difficult to properly insulate a standard hive down to 4 frames and I've moved them to 4 frame Poly nucs which I'm convinced assists the small ones

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## Bridget

Many thanks FS and Nemplar.  I didn't realise that brood needed a warm temperature to develop but I suppose its just like nesting birds eggs etc.  To cold here today to open them and pi🎉🎉ing with rain but I will try to close them down a bit tomorrow.  I've no 4 frame nucs but have spare dummy boards and insulation and forecast is 21 degrees here tomorrow (Up from 9 today?) so will give it a try and perhaps head up to Highland Bees on Monday and get a small poly nuc from them. 
You know when you get instructions for a new computer there is a troubleshooting section - well all my bee books tell you masses about "how to..." but no sections on "what ifs" - thank goodness for this forum.

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## drumgerry

An easy way to close the space down on a full size brood box Bridget is to make a wide dummy using Kingspan.  I can show you one if you're coming to the Spey Beeks meeting tomorrow and you remind me!

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## Jon

There's one of my quality correx insulated dummies!
There is 50mm thick piece of polystryene inside

correx-box-insulated-dummy.jpg

With a 2 frame colony, I would remove a couple of frames and move the two frames of bees and brood up to the front of the box (assuming warm way frames) Put the insulated dummy directly behind the two frames and the rest of the stores behind the dummy frame. They will be able to access the stores if they need them. Check every 10 days or so and add more space as needed by moving another frame or two in front of the dummy. Build up will be very slow from 2 frame size. I have a couple like this myself. If it warms up you could add a frame of emerging brood from a stronger colony at some point to give it a boost.

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## drumgerry

Mine have actually some wood content Jon!  Two top bars, ply outsides, and 100mm of Kingspan inside.  All sealed up with lovely duct tape!

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## Jon

Sometimes I make the top bar from wood but a double piece of correx does the job just as well and keeps it nice and light. I buy the tape 12 rolls at a time on e-bay.

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## Samsalar

My remaining hive thinks it is still early March, all our gorse has died after hard winter, so waiting for trees and rape to start. I looked in hive last Sunday and saw queen, she is laying, but most eggs and grubs are at top of frames, in total about 3 inches across. Is laying at top something unusual, as I expected eggs under pollen stores?  I have been feeding, but the bees are not taking much. Any thoughts?

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## Dark Bee

Have you an open mesh floor? Is the hive wood or polystyrene and / or what insulation is there above the crown board? It is one assumes a single brood chamber and not 1 1/2 or 2x.

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## Samsalar

Smith wooden hive with open mesh floor. No insulation anymore as have feeder on them.

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## nemphlar

Learn how to stitch up a cut down duvet for covering all shapes and seal up the top with poly material

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## Bridget

Thanks guys. Drumgerry see you later and I'm bringing Anne and Jen


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Dark Bee

> Smith wooden hive with open mesh floor. No insulation anymore as have feeder on them.


Open mesh floors with the tray removed are the invention of the devil. It will be impossible to keep the hive warm in the winter time, think of a 1st floor room with almost all the floor removed and the ground floor open to the elements; how could that be heated ? A feeder provides but little insulation and wet hive walls provide even less. Modern microporus paints and / or deep roofs will keep the walls dry and thick styrofoam over the crown board or quilting or a deep tray filled with wool (fleeces are cheap at present) or other insulating material will stop heat escaping into the attic :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .
What you described is similar to what was seen here when omfs first became popular, brood needs heat and a degree of humidity to hatch - same as birds eggs. Your bees were seeking the warmest part of the hive, position a removable solid floor 2" below the mesh and all should be well.

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## drumgerry

> Open mesh floors with the tray removed are the invention of the devil.


Hmmm...I think this is an area where a multitude of beekeeping opinions is at work.  No definitive answer either.  My bees have done very well on open OMfs since I started beekeeping 9 years ago.  I leave them open through the winter, usually with Kingspan on top of the crownboard.  And all is dry and cosy within.  My hives are on 12 inch high stands with sides about 3 inches deep so are protected from direct wind blowing up through the floor.  

Where I try to overwinter bees in my solid floored nucs they're invariably damp and unpleasant come Spring time.  I tried and succeeded to overwinter a couple of Paynes polynucs with OMFs and the bees did very well in them - dry, warm and cosy even here in the frozen north!

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## Dark Bee

> Hmmm...I think this is an area where a multitude of beekeeping opinions is at work.  ..................................................  .............................................polyn  ucs with OMFs and the bees did very well in them - dry, warm and cosy even here in the frozen north!


I agree that people have different experiences of OMF's and solid floors are certainly an unpleasant sight after bees have overwintered on them. My own experience of OMFs is bees seem to consume more stores and seem to suffer more fatalities. In the spring the bees are always clustering in the top 1/2 box whereas in hives with the floor closed they are spread out and have, in so far as one can gauge, more brood. I have 6" deep skirts on the floor and keep them as you do about 12" above the deck. The legs are splayed to resist the wind and enough draught gets into the bottom of the hive to keep it dry. What works in one area may not work in another and each must do what he considers best for his bees. I have lost far more colonies with the hives open to the elements than when the removable tray was used and friends in a well known bee breeding group have reported similar results. It is possible that a damper climate is a contributory factor i.e. frozen and dry v frozen and damp. There is an Irish gentleman, intelligent but with surprisingly little practical experience, who contributes copiously to various forums and chat groups. He advocated the use of the open OMFs, but now seems to have changed his mind after suffering "heavy casualties" on more than one occasion. It is certainly a subject worth investigating and establishing a consensus. :Cool:

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## Black Comb

Into my 6th year now and always overwintered on OMF.
My hives face SE with shelter from the prevailing south westerlies.
This winter we had a long spell of very cold east winds (unusual on the west coast) and I think the OMF's cost me.
Next season I plan to make some ply inserts with a small mesh hole in the middle - best of both worlds?

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## drumgerry

You may have a point about differing climates.  I'm a native of Glasgow and when I first moved up here I couldn't believe how little rain we got.  We get the cold and we get the snow but rarely (he said touching wood) do we get sustained day after day rain.  I should have added that I do generally add the floor inserts from February until about late April having read that it helps with initial brood raising.  But when they're tight in the cluster I keep the floors open.  No scientific basis for what I do but it's worked for me so I've stuck with it.

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## Dark Bee

> Into my 6th year now and always overwintered on OMF.
> My hives face SE with shelter from the prevailing south westerlies.
> This winter we had a long spell of very cold east winds (unusual on the west coast) and I think the OMF's cost me.
> Next season I plan to make some ply inserts with a small mesh hole in the middle - best of both worlds?


Your reference to the east wind does have a resonance for me now that you mention it. I had forgotten it, but about ten years ago there were 3 or 4 colonies on omf's which were open to the elements - no tray. They were in front of a mobile home, sheltered from the south and the south west winds, but after an unseasonally long period of east wind, there was no longer a buzz if the hive was tapped. Hives on the other side of the structure survived.
I am at a loss to understand why the hives failed - the east wind is cold but very dry, it dries the land very effectively. Dampness is a killer for bees and most mammals, so why did a dry wind cause the hives to fail? In hindsight I suspect isolation starvation was the primary cause.

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