# General beekeeping > Queen raising >  Was SHB, Now more queen and nuc raising

## fatshark

> If people are going to import packages from Southern Italy we will have SHB this year for sure.


I fear that you could extend this to imports from the places that either overwintered their bees in Southern Italy or imported nucs from Southern Italy last year. There was clearly a long period when the beetle went unnoticed … if it's already in Germany or France, for example, then the horse has already bolted.

We've been over this ground before and there appears little movement from the national associations. The BBKA stance is particularly disappointing. Previous importations have, I believe, all been with bees or bee products. NBU analysis indicates that bees/equipment/products are the real threat (risk analysis posted elsewhere in this thread).

I was fortunate to again hear Michael Palmer give his _Sustainable Apiary_ talk this weekend … what he preaches should and could be expanded to cover a entire country.

[No worries, but this last comment prompted a long diversion into queen and nuc rearing from the point of view of making beekeeping in the UK more sustainable and negating the need for these imports that risk the health of everyone's bees.  I found a new home here for that discussion.  G.]

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## Jon

> … what he preaches should and could be expanded to cover a entire country.


I heard his two presentations last week in NI and I concur.
Nothing he is doing is that complicated, and beekeeping in the British Isles could become sustainable and avoid the need for imports if there was a will to do so.
It is easy to make up a number of nucs equivalent to the number of full colonies you work every season and if you rear a few decent queens to queen them with then you are up and running.
The reason the commercial guys import packages and queens is that it must work out cheaper than going down the M Palmer route.

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## Wmfd

> I heard his two presentations last week in NI and I concur.
> Nothing he is doing is that complicated, and beekeeping in the British Isles could become sustainable and avoid the need for imports if there was a will to do so.
> It is easy to make up a number of nucs equivalent to the number of full colonies you work every season and if you rear a few decent queens to queen them with then you are up and running.
> The reason the commercial guys import packages and queens is that it must work out cheaper than going down the M Palmer route.


It probably is cheaper to import but that could be because the costs of bringing anything nasty in have been externalised. They will be paid by everyone else if it results in SHB arriving here.

I had a quick look at the forms required for import (what an exciting website on European procedures). They talk about a 'visual inspection' - that could cover a very wide range of practices, from some very good to some not so good. 

David

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## prakel

> I was fortunate to again hear Michael Palmer give his _Sustainable Apiary_ talk this weekend  what he preaches should and could be expanded to cover a entire country.


Frustratingly, a very similar sustainable apiary plan is outlined in a book which most British beekeepers (at least, the ones who've bothered to read a book at all) claim to have read -Ted Hooper's 1976 Guide to bees and Honey. Yet it still hasn't sunk in.

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## Jon

The possibility of overwintering nucs seems to be a eureka moment for the package orientated US beekeepers but it is not so much of a novelty in the UK.

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## prakel

Not so sure about that Jon. The number of UK beekeepers that I've personally met, who wouldn't dream of using a nuc in the summer let alone the winter seems to suggest that it's still an arcane art for a lot. The 'mating nuclei' section in Hooper's book is almost identical to Mr Palmer's lecture (with the odd technical difference here and there) and yet there's still a hobby level scramble for April queens from Greece etc.

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## Jon

Maybe so at the level of those with just 1 or 2 colonies but anyone with a few more should certainly make up the insurance of a few nucs.
I take the insurance to a second level by trying to overwinter a few queens in apideas. 12/12 double apideas still alive this winter and most of the nucs are looking good as well.
If we can get a sea change re the social acceptability of imports our beekeeping will become a lot safer but the commercial guys are the biggest risk takers in that area and all of us have to live with the risk that they are taking.

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## prakel

I'm not disagreeing with any of that but will add that i think a greater emphasis needs to be placed on rearing queens at home -and making sure that there's a few spare to go into winter with too. Practical hands on experience will change attitudes to the bigger picture much quicker than back and forth debate about the pros and cons (not saying that's not important too, of course) because there's nothing as powerful as the knowledge that we can do something ourselves. We're  at risk of becoming a nation(s) of compartmentalized specialists.

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## Jon

The current Bibba queen rearing workshops are a step in the right direction. Seem to be quite a few planned.

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## drumgerry

Not being a member of BIBBA anymore I had a look at their website for the QR workshops (in passing noting their website despite big promises a year or two back remains unchanged). Surprise surprise nothing in Scotland.  I suspect I'll be a cobweb covered skeleton with swiss grafting tool clutched in my bony fingers before they live up to the British Isles part of their former title - I can see now why they changed it!  In organisational terms yet another reason we have to go it alone here in Scotland.

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## fatshark

> Maybe so at the level of those with just 1 or 2 colonies but anyone with a few more should certainly make up the insurance of a few nucs.


Jon and prakel  I agree with what you're both saying but the critical phrase in the sentence above is *should*. I belong to one of the bigger local associations and less than 10% of members actively raise queens (i.e. more than one at a time, or with any real effort to select for desirable traits) and about the same proportion or less overwinter nucs. There's not a single overwintering nuc in the - very extensive - association apiary or in the 6 apiaries of even quite experienced beekeepers I know of within a mile or two of me*. Together these probably contain 60-80 colonies.

Michael makes the point in his talk that he's not the first or even the twenty-first to stress the benefits of overwintering nucs  he even quotes skeppists doing something similar about 150 years ago. 

* of course, they might all be in their back gardens like mine are  :Wink:   but I doubt it.

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## prakel

> Michael makes the point in his talk that he's not the first or even the twenty-first to stress the benefits of overwintering nucs  he even quotes skeppists doing something similar about 150 years ago.


For sure, and I'm as big a fan of the way he presents his message as anyone but my point about Hooper is that while his book has been one of the most widely read by British beekeepers for the best part of 40 years his message (which is like a blueprint for the Palmer plan) still hasn't sank in. I wonder how many of the people who claim to have read his book actually felt a need to read past the swarm control chapter.... 

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With regards to the Bibba days, I don't know the details of how they're presented but can only assume that something is better than nothing, that said, I reckon that there's not going to be a wave of change running through British beekeeping anytime soon. A few new local groups may be set up but you can well bet that they'll be dependent on one or two members and the others will just be along for the ride because they like the idea so long as someone else is driving the project.

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## mbc

> A few new local groups may be set up but you can well bet that they'll be dependent on one or two members and the others will just be along for the ride because they like the idea so long as someone else is driving the project.


Twas always thus.
I've run a couple of queen rearing courses with the association and its obvious from the start only one or two will pick it up and have a go for themselves, but that's enough, one keen beekeeper can raise good queen cells to share with other members, making good use of available resources.

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## Jon

One person who can graft and has access to a few good queens can provide queen cells for dozens of beekeepers.
Our group has about 50 active members and although quite a few are interested in grafting, two of us do almost all the grafts.
That's why I think establishing groups is critical as you will never get the majority of beekeepers grafting or raising their own queens.
It is a laudable aim, but for those with plenty of money they just don't mind throwing out £35-£40 for a queen.
I think a lot of attendees treat training days as hobby related entertainment rather than a stepping stone to raising their own replacement queens.
It is a fun day out seeing an aspect of beekeeping which is of interest, no more than that.

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## prakel

> ...but that's enough, one keen beekeeper can raise good queen cells to share with other members, making good use of available resources.





> One person who can graft and has access to a few good queens can provide queen cells for dozens of beekeepers.
> Our group has about 50 active members and although quite a few are interested in grafting, two of us do almost all the grafts.
> That's why I think establishing groups is critical as you will never get the majority of beekeepers grafting or raising their own queens.
> It is a laudable aim, but for those with plenty of money they just don't mind throwing out £35-£40 for a queen.


This is exactly where I think the whole 'sustainable apiary' philosophy is doomed to failure on anything other than a very small individual basis. Those who rear their own queens have the knowledge that they can do so where ever they live but if they rely on someone else to do the grafting or raise the cells they remain as dependent as the person who clicks that paypal button for a ready made queen. What happens when their job or family requires a move to another area which doesn't have such a group? It's back to the default paypal button. I don't have any constructive answers (other than suggesting that a lot of people need a good shake to wake them up) and, like I wrote earlier, I do agree that something is better than nothing but I just don't understand why people are so distanced from queen rearing it's probably one of the simplest aspects of beekeeping -especially when most beginners seem to spend the season trying to _stop_ their colonies raising new queens.

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## mbc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CUPKIT-Com...item41913d131b

I am starting to promote using this system for people unable to graft themselves, for £30 anybody who can catch their favourite queen should be able to raise a few good cells from her with this.
Coupled with links to Randy Oliver and Sue Cobey's queen rearing pages, and a few minutes waffle about selection, it allows my queen rearing talk to concentrate on getting to the tea and cake asap.

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## fatshark

I suspect there's a useful intermediate position between the Paypal purchase and large scale grafting  one that allows a 1-4 colony beekeeper to raise the few queens he/she needs each season, either for replacement, stock improvement or making (limited) increase. Most queen rearing talks I attend (or give) or courses emphasise the grafting/large scale enterprises (the one Michael Palmer gives has a repeating four day cycle through the season that he uses to raise 1100 queens a year   :Big Grin: ). Unfortunately, this middle ground is perhaps even more dependent on an appreciation of the timing and necessity for good observational beekeeping. 

This thread probably isn't the place to start discussing the best way of generating 2-3 high quality queens from larvae with desirable genetics. There are probably a million possible routes to do this and, critically, they don't require activities like grafting and maintaining mini-nucs that lots of beekeepers find daunting. I think that this would be a useful practical skill that should be within the abilities of most beekeepers *and* would reduce all those Euro (or in due course Drachma) Paypal payments  :Wink:

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## prakel

So the question is how to get the message across that people could be doing this stuff for themselves, getting so much more enjoyment out of their hobby and saving a few pounds too. 

I mentioned grafting earlier as that had already been discussed in the previous posts, but as suggested, there are plenty of different ways to get from 'a' to 'b'; the problem seems to be getting the beekeepers not presently raising their own queens to 'a' in the first place.

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## brothermoo

I think availability of local quality queens, even to those who aren't raising them, is even more reason to overwinter nucs.  Insurance policy queens at a decent price with a summer split nuc saves a whole load of heartache and money come spring! I built a double nuc a la Michael Palmer but Hooper has instructions to have a removable divider to give the option to unite bith sides which I think has merit (in fact nihbs website recently post a modified artificial swarm method that requires this design)

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## mbc

I have lots of split boxes with dividers but am coming to the conclusion they've been superseded in function by poly nucs

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## Jon

I much prefer single units to any form of double box although I think Michael Palmer's logic was that 2 nucs under the one roof help with heat in very cold conditions.

Using a Snelgrove board will get you a new queen but how many do that.

MBC. I think finding, handling and caging a queen is far more daunting for most beekeepers than mastering the grafting process. That is the big weakness in those systems where the queen has to be found and caged for a day.

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## mbc

Even with one of those crack pipe things John?  
I'm still tweeking the idea, trying to refine an "entry level" system to make it accessible for all.

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## Wmfd

> MBC. I think finding, handling and caging a queen is far more daunting for most beekeepers than mastering the grafting process. That is the big weakness in those systems where the queen has to be found and caged for a day.


I'd agree with that having seen the Horlicks I made of picking up and marking a queen last year, during what started as a Taranov swarm. I was frankly useless!

I need to practice on some drones.

There isn't the same pressure with the thought of handling comb for grafting.

The challenge I find is time and timing, it requires a bit of forward planning on top of the already busy bee times - so the queens I have reared have been from harvesting spare cells which isn't a good way to get towards less swarmy stock!

David

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## brothermoo

> I much prefer single units to any form of double box although I think Michael Palmer's logic was that 2 nucs under the one roof help with heat in very cold conditions


We probably dont get temperatures that always require a double box system, which is handy, but I have further divided the division to create 4x2 frame mating nucs... means I can work with only one frame size throughout my equipment.

Although I do have a few apideas for good measure!

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## Jon

MBC - just finding the queen is a barrier for many.
The crack pipe aka the pluffer pipe for those of us without current bad habits does work well as does any form of tube which you shepherd the queen into.

Moo - I got another 3 cases of apideas delivered yesterday.

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## brothermoo

Lol How many are there in a case? Im definitely going to be using my apideas this year, last year I used only my two frame mating nuc  so that I didn't have to start filling apideas.  Should have enough bees this year, 4 out of 4 thru winter so far.

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## Jon

18 Apideas per case
I have lost 1 nuc and one which blew over in November which hung on until January before fizzling out.
Looks like most people's bees have had a good winter.

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## Calum

hi
whoever needs to find the queen to raise new queens? 
A frame of young larve and a very fine haired paintbrush (or chinese bee larve spoon) is all you need to fill the cell cups.
Locally here it is advised against confining a queen in a Jenter or similar cage as it really stresses the queen, and can lead to queen loss. Transferring larve is much less hassle for everyone involved.

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