# General beekeeping > Native honeybees >  Honeybee races - nature or nurture?

## drumgerry

This is a question which I'm finding of increasing interest and I wondered if some of our experienced (or not so experienced) forumites might care to give us their take on it.

So.....we all know that Bro Adam travelled the world in his quest for the best bee races to use in his breeding for the "perfect" bee.  In doing so he categorised such and such a race as being swarmy or another as being fond of the use of propolis etc etc.  My question is this - are these and other characteristics intrinsic to these races of bee and unchangeable through breeding?

And if, as someone mentioned to me recently, AMM is less suitable for migratory beekeeping through a susceptibility to nosema is this something we could change through selective breeding?  My instinct is to say that we can pretty much select for anything and change it with enough selective breeding.

It raises some interesting possible scenarios if that is the case.  Could we change outright the generally accepted characteristics of any bee?  

Anyone for a thrifty, non-prolific, cold weather mating Italian queen?!

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## Pete L

> Anyone for a thrifty, non-prolific, cold weather mating Italian queen?!


Like they have in Finland.

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## drumgerry

If you mean the Italian bees kept by finman from beekeepingforum Pete doesn't he give them an artificial heat source over the winter?  Not something that would appeal to me I must say.

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## Pete L

No, he does not give them an artificial heat source over winter, only in early spring when he feeds pollen sub, they are quite well adapted, as they need to stop brooding in late August/early Sept, or die over winter, not something the Italian bees do in most other parts of the world, i believe several large beefarms in Finland also use mainly Italian bees, like paradise with around 3,000 colonies apparently.  I prefer to stick to a well adapted Buckfast for here in swamp world.

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## The Drone Ranger

> This is a question which I'm finding of increasing interest and I wondered if some of our experienced (or not so experienced) forumites might care to give us their take on it.
> 
> And if, as someone mentioned to me recently, AMM is less suitable for migratory beekeeping through a susceptibility to nosema is this something we could change through selective breeding?  My instinct is to say that we can pretty much select for anything and change it with enough selective breeding.
> 
> It raises some interesting possible scenarios if that is the case.  Could we change outright the generally accepted characteristics of any bee?  
> !


Hi Drumgerry
Possibly a bee with a rapid build up like Carniolans would do best where the target crop is rape
But I would have thought the Amm type with a slower build up would be a good one to take to a late crop like heather

Both types will consider swarming when the population is peaking  so Carnies will be ready to swarm first

By the time a few seasons have gone by though and the daughter queens are mated with the local drones and grandaughter queens etc there will probably be not much between the two.

I don't think there will be much nosema difference 
In some old books they tell of AMM being wiped out by wax moth etc but we never hear of that now so either it was a myth( like witches cursing the cow that died)or the AMM of the past are not much like the old black bee they wrote about then

Old Brother Adam on his collecting trips was often quite scathing about certain strains of bee (within a race) and was intent on finding a sort of gold standard from each race to add to his breeding program 

I kind of think crossing a sheepdog and a labrador will get you a nice dog, but don't expect it to solve the problem of a blind shepherd

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## drumgerry

Thanks DR - interesting stuff.  I guess what I'm really asking is how far we can take selective breeding of bees.  In other livestock they've bred from wee wild sheep that roamed the desert or the mountain sides to ones who can provide three fat lambs or a heavy milk yield and similarly with cattle etc etc.

Bro Adam and others say for example that Carnies are like this and AMM are like that.  What I'm asking is why can't we breed an AMM with qualities other than those widely accepted.  The follow up question might be why would we want to.  The answer I would hope would be that producing a bee with quality X whatever that might be would make imports less of a go to option.

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## mbc

I think the variation within subspecies (or even daughters of the same queen!) is huge and what people talk of are merely tendencies rather than definite traits.  I believe you can explain almost anything with a bell curve, and all we're doing by measuring traits and selectively breeding is attempting to push the meat of the bell one way or the other.

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## brothermoo

Management techniques play a vital role too.. if you confine a certain strain of amm to 1 brod box they will be seen as swarmy but other strains kept in poly rather than wood will build up slow or vice versa.

A lot of our stereotypical traits are probably down to a handful of beekeepers-of-the-past and their preference/limited knowledge of wide range of variation with sub species.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks DR - interesting stuff.  I guess what I'm really asking is how far we can take selective breeding of bees.  In other livestock they've bred from wee wild sheep that roamed the desert or the mountain sides to ones who can provide three fat lambs or a heavy milk yield and similarly with cattle etc etc.
> 
> Bro Adam and others say for example that Carnies are like this and AMM are like that.  What I'm asking is why can't we breed an AMM with qualities other than those widely accepted.  The follow up question might be why would we want to.  The answer I would hope would be that producing a bee with quality X whatever that might be would make imports less of a go to option.


Hi Drumgerry
I'm pretty sure you could start with any bee and select for the traits you most want
Epigenetics ie all the genes are present in every bee but which ones are activated ? 

Trouble is that unlike the sheep and the cows etc we are not in control of both sides of the mating 
Local adapted drones get involved and very few people can avoid that

Brother Adam really was taking a breeding shortcut because he was collecting bees which had the traits he wanted
From there, and with a fairly isolated position, he tried crossing those bees and fixing the traits in his new matings
He succeeded in his location but that wouldn't work for most people

Time to get the AI kit out  :Smile:

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## drumgerry

Ha DR!  The II kit I sold because I don't have the time to devote to it!  :Smile: 

So if the genes are there we should in theory be able to pick and choose.  Within the limits of open mating for most of us to be sure though.  II of course adds another dimension to the whole process.  Doing it as part of a group effort or, dare I say it, a national effort and it starts to get even more interesting.  Especially if some of those involved can add II into the mix.  Has Gavin mentioned to you that we're thinking of starting up a new Scottish Native Bee group?  If not why not Gav??!  :Wink: 

Interesting to hear that the potential exists though.

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## prakel

I suppose, if we think about it, most of the behavioural characteristics which have been attributed to the different races were/are actually those of managed colonies. 

It may only have been a very simplistic management but never the less, over a period of centuries it would have had a real bearing on the bees. A random example of old style management affecting the direction the bees take can be found in Dzierzon's 'Rational Beekeeping'.




> Even the common black or grey German species may be divided into a honey-bee and a swarming bee. The latter, which is also called the Heath bee, in consequence of the management adopted, swarms continually ; and swarming has become quite a second nature with this bee, so much so, that even colonies with young queens of the first year make preparations for swarming and breed drones, which is never done by the honey-bee that is met with in the greatest part of Central and South Germany.

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## The Drone Ranger

It's only in a situation where the queen has produced all the bees in a hive that you get a chance to assess the results
I try and run all the hives with a swarm board because you have two queens per hive and can select and renew 

One time I requeened half the hives with the daughters of a V.G. queen but for some reason they all were chalkbrood suseptible the following spring it took ages to fix that

Other times I have bred several daughters from a good queen without any probs so  I just opt for the boards to spread the risk

I think to be fair if you can start with a good tempered bee it's easier to hang on to that trait rather than try to conjure it up from some ill tempered brutes

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## prakel

> So.....we all know that Bro Adam travelled the world in his quest for the best bee races to use in his breeding for the "perfect" bee.  In doing so he categorised such and such a race as being swarmy or another as being fond of the use of propolis etc etc.  My question is this - are these and other characteristics intrinsic to these races of bee and unchangeable through breeding?


This pdf of a 1968 paper by prof. Ruttner presents some thoughts on the subject:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...91665533,d.bGg

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## The Drone Ranger

> This pdf of a 1968 paper by prof. Ruttner presents some thoughts on the subject:


Thanks for that prakel very interesting read

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/123803-a...ire-beekeeper/

This is what can happen

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## prakel

Maybe asbo's should have been issued to everyone who's allowing unsuitable drones to fly freely across the countryside  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

I don't know the inside story but I was told he had bees in his garden for years no problem until he developed an interest in bee breeding
who knows he might be on the SBAi forum and give us the other side of the tale

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## SDM

> Hi Drumgerry
> I'm pretty sure you could start with any bee and select for the traits you most want
> Epigenetics ie all the genes are present in every bee but which ones are activated ? 
> 
> Trouble is that unlike the sheep and the cows etc we are not in control of both sides of the mating 
> Local adapted drones get involved and very few people can avoid that
> 
> Brother Adam really was taking a breeding shortcut because he was collecting bees which had the traits he wanted
> From there, and with a fairly isolated position, he tried crossing those bees and fixing the traits in his new matings
> ...



 No trouble is thatt we allow are bees to breed with the local population polluting their lines.
Look at the characteristics we breed for.
1st Temperament,  beekeepers want nice bees that don't sting when your in their hive, but then when Asian hornet come  your nice bees will die, nicely. Ditto for other pests they do t recognise as a threat. Great for beekeepers bad for bees.
2nd prolifacy, in nature prolifacy has a direct negative affect on longevity , so will the winter bees in your most prolific hives still be alive come spring on the first extended winter ? Again its good for beekeepers, bad for bees.
3rd low swarming tendency, Swarming is a bees only means of reproduction. Nobody is re queening feral hives, what chance do they stand if they don't want to reproduce. One last time, good for beekeepers, bad etc etc.
Here's a simple fact in every domesticated species the progenitor is extinct usually because we allowed domesticated to breed with feral. Further to that none of the domesticated breeds can survive without human interaction is. AI because they're too big to mate naturally, assisted births because they carry too many offspring. Chickens that hatch only in incubators because the parent is too busy laying eggs to sit on them.
Nature doesn't wipe out less productive colonies, they survive and reproduce and just don't  make so much surplus. nature doesn't wipe out aggressive Colonies but we do , since we requeen with a prefered genetic.
With feral Colonies in trouble because of pests and diseases we shipped to them beekeepers have never had a bigger influence on the genes of the species. I do something I'm sure none of you do. I keep non productive colonies and I'll keep aggressive ones as long as its confined to around the hive (im not irresponsible about it) I have one tiny swarm that nothing gets near without a fight, even  swallow diving 3 ft from the hive will have 4 guard bees up its bum as it goes. They're horrors to inspect but Ive watched 3 of them take out a European hornet taking g dead bees of the floor they hit it one after the other and dragged it down into the grass(it didn't come back) These bees will never fill a brood box so they're no use to beekeepers but quite possibly bloody good for bees.
Until we can produce drone free production hives that cant inflict our preferences on the bees. When selecting qualities we should all think twice(once for ourselves and once for the species before we dispose of undesirable traits.
Now if I have  similar swarm season next year to this, I'll have to find a different solution. I've come up with a marine ply box that with paint and sealed cuts should last 20-25yrs with a partial mesh floor and an inspection box so I can give them an OA vape each winter and give them a varroa free spring each year. I'm hoping g to get permission from. Natural resources Wales to put them into their forests .
The key to a successful species is a broad gene pool , not eugenics !

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## The Drone Ranger

I'll bear that in mind

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## prakel

> I'll keep aggressive ones as long as its confined to around the hive (im not irresponsible about it)


How do you confine them?

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## SDM

> How do you confine them?


LOL, intensive training and sensory deprivation techniques.

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## Jon

One major cause of aggression in honeybees is heterosis ie hybrid vigour when two subspecies are crossed. ie you could cross two very gentle lines of bees and get very aggressive offspring. It's not just as straightforward as bees having aggressive genes or not. Most bee behaviours seem to be polygenic anyway so fixing traits is no simple matter.

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## prakel

> LOL, intensive training and sensory deprivation techniques.


That's what I thought.

Will stick with real beekeeping myself, might be easier.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> Until we can produce drone free production hives that cant inflict our preferences on the bees. ...


How does that sentence end (or begin), SDM? 




> ...
> Now if I have  similar swarm season next year to this, I'll have to find a different solution. ...


What was your swarm season like this year; what was your solution to it; and why would you need a different solution next year?

I'm just curious ...
Kitta

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## SDM

> How do you confine them?


Firstly to Prakel, apologies I thought you were joking with your question but it wasn't clear.
It's their aggression that must be confined to the hive not the bees. I expect to be able to stand alongside the hive and not be stung and not followed  more than a few ft after an inspection.
Basically so that they don't pose a threat to anyone(other than me)

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## SDM

> How does that sentence end (or begin), SDM? 
> 
> 
> 
> What was your swarm season like this year; what was your solution to it; and why would you need a different solution next year?
> 
> I'm just curious ...
> Kitta


Sorry I can't backspace. I double tapped space after bees(when it should have been comma, space) and the full stop and following capital was inserted automatically.
So, comma after "bees" followed  by a lower case w in"when"
I'll stick to typing on a real keyboard from now on.

My swarm season was busy ! I wanted to make increase this year so spoke to a couple of pest controllers and after loosing drone layers and merging ones known to be from the same source I gained 11 colonies, 4 of which seem unlikely to ever fill a brood box, one won't fill a nuc.
But I'm still going to.give them homes and let them Bee for the reasons mentioned.
My solution this year was to use spare kit, but I don't have space for another 4 unproductive hives in my garden. So next year I hope to get permission from Natural resources Wales to give them semi permanent homes in the forest if I take as many. If I can't rehome them, I'll just have to stop.collecting as many.

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## prakel

> next year I hope to get permission from Natural resources Wales to give them semi permanent homes in the forest if I take as many. If I can't rehome them, I'll just have to stop.collecting as many.


Hi, are you thinking along the lines of allowing them to establish unmanaged nests if you get permission for forest locations or will you manage them as you do your other colonies?

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## SDM

> Hi, are you thinking along the lines of allowing them to establish unmanaged nests if you get permission for forest locations or will you manage them as you do your other colonies?


Basically unmanaged, but with the option of a vaping them with OA crystals each winter since they can usually deal with other problems if their Varroa load isn't too high. So assisted, but not managed.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Sorry I can't backspace. I double tapped space after bees(when it should have been comma, space) and the full stop and following capital was inserted automatically.
> So, comma after "bees" followed  by a lower case w in"when" ...


I'm trying to get my head round your sentence.  So it should read:




> Until we can produce drone-free production hives that can't inflict our preferences on the bees when selecting qualities, we should all think twice (once for ourselves and once for the species before we dispose of undesirable traits).


I'm still confused!  I suppose you're trying to say we should be careful how we breed honey bees so as not to breed out traits that, although undesirable to us, might actually be essential for the honey bees' future?

Kitta

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## SDM

Exactly !

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## The Drone Ranger

I watched the Jamie Ellis video and it tied in with a course I had been doing on Futurelearn.com

Epigenetics is a more recent understanding of how genes work

Because the science is complex a simple view could be that the DNA string for all the honey bees is the same
In that long string the coding for colour, hygienic behaviour ,resistance ,temper and everything else is flexible
Epigenetics describes the method by which different chemical switches turn on or off sections of the genetic code

The differences we see in the bees temper colour can be fixed, but nothing in the bees gnome is actually changed
All that has happened is some sections are activated others are not and some other sections are flipped from one role to a different one

The result is that some things like colour are reasonably easily fixed in a population (Mendelian rules apply)
Some other things are very hard to fix because they act on several sites in the DNA string (many switches have to be turned on/off)

The thing that this points to is that short of mutations, breeding better behaviour ,less propolis etc does not mean we have lost anything it's all still there in every honey bee ---- Good news

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## SDM

I always understood it as bees not being limited by their genetics at least not in what they display.
But surely the result is the same if we keep selecting tendencies.
A trait that is never displayed may as well not be there.
I'm probably over simplifying it, but if traits can be fixed, how do they change ?
Or do you mean that at some stage in the future a geneticist could switch them back on ? That would take us back to the species needing human intervention to survive.
I've got some more reading to do I think.

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## SDM

OK so I found this: 
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...k-88yFOCkjmFAA 

Which suggests the affects are immediate or  next generational but temporary,but that fixing over multiple generations is possible with some traits.
That's pretty encouraging as long as we don't do something that wipes them out in a couple of generations.
It makes more sense now and ties in with an observation I'd made that, after a health inspection(all bees shook from frames) just over half my colonies would be a bit more alert to my presence next inspection. Now assuming it's not a learned response in the usual sense of learning. It would be a temporary epigenetic one. Does that sound right ?

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## SDM

Another question. Given the variation in response there would be some gene that controls response to epigenetic stimuli that would,  I presume have a more mendelian rule book for inheritance.
That would still mean our choices becoming ever more widespread, however much slower.
I'm left feeling we should leave the genes alone and focus on controlling the switches.
But you've given me a new selection criteria. I will try and select for the strongest epigenetic response as well. As that would surely be in the best interest of the species.

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## gavin

Ummm ... as a card-carrying geneticist (well, its lying about somewhere) I feel obliged to intervene but I'm not sure how productive this will be.

Epigenetics.  You can't select for epigenetics as if it is selectable then it is genetics, by definition.  The switches and controls are embedded in the genetic code, and if you want to change the switches by selection of the variants around, you are selecting for heritable variants in (and near) the gene.  So if it is change in some trait you are after, and you don't want it to go away after you stop using some magic treatment to make it happen (that nice Ewan in Aberdeen has some), then it has to be heritable and therefore genetic.

The talk of 'fixing' traits.  If you 'fix' a trait it mean that the trait is now always going to be present in the population for genetic reasons, unless you permit matings outside the group.  Lets say there is a gene to make people blethery (they tend to hang out on online fora), a.  Normal, non-blethery people have the dominant version of the gene, A.  The blethery version is recessive (masked when the dominant one is present) and is designated a.  Everyone has two versions of the gene as our chromosomes are in pairs.

Here is the genetic status of a bunch of people living on one desert island, all of them:

AA, Aa, AA, AA, Aa, aa, Aa, AA, AA, aa, Aa

There are two blethery ones amongst that lot (aa).  Usually the blethery ones are entertaining but even if they annoy the others so much so that they are dispatched off in the high seas in a leaky canoe, there are still hidden blethery genes there and amongst the next generation you can expect more blethery offspring.

However if there is a big storm which wipes out most of them and, by chance, the only survivors are three AA individuals (why I chose three and not two isn't obvious, even to me) then it makes no difference how many children they have between them, the children will always be AA and will never again produce blethery offspring.  The trait is fixed in the population.  Until someone attractive in a canoe stops by, or a chance mutation in the gene throws up another blethery version, which will be a very, very rare occurence.

There speaks a man who knows the power of being able to tinker with the mechanisms that control gene action, but is a bit sceptical of erecting this new discipline Epigenetics.  Might be wrong of course, it has been known.

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## The Drone Ranger

I will leave you all to read up on epigenetics
It attempts to explain how organisms react to the environment and other challenges through gene expression
I'm off to do a spot of beekeeping now

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## Calluna4u

> Here is the genetic status of a bunch of people living on one desert island, all of them:
> 
> AA, Aa, AA, AA, Aa, aa, Aa, AA, AA, aa, Aa
> 
> .


Is this how the island of Yap got its name?

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## Feckless Drone

> I'm off to do a spot of beekeeping now


The very best example of epigenetics has to be something DR exploits all the time in his beekeeping, namely getting a superfed larva that develops into a Q whereas another larva, with the same genetic code, but fed less becomes a worker.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks FD I honestly wouldn't have thought of that example

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## gavin

> Is this how the island of Yap got its name?


Post of the week!!

'Major bee farmer resorts to internet banter to relieve boredom during difficult beekeeping season.'

I knew nothing of Yap but am better informed now.  Don't fancy using the local currency, I tend to stick the loose change in my pockets.  Cracking flag:



Thanks ... umm ... feckless (always feel uneasy typing that).

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Post of the week!!
> 
> 'Major bee farmer resorts to internet banter to relieve boredom during difficult beekeeping season.'
> 
> I knew nothing of Yap but am better informed now.  Don't fancy using the local currency, I tend to stick the loose change in my pockets.  Cracking flag:


All the sculptor bankers on Yap were aa and disappeared while quarrying for money  - so no more quantitative easing of local money.

Ps:  oops - and Aa.

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## gavin

> All the sculptor bankers on Yap were aa and disappeared while quarrying for money  - so no more quantitative easing of local money.
> 
> Ps:  oops - and Aa.


It is going to be a record week for Posts of the Week at this rate  :Smile: .

Bankers always pop up again anyway.

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## The Drone Ranger

What I believe is that by selecting for certain behaviour like non stinging we are not losing anything 
Bees are quite capable of still stinging they just are more tolerant
If they were born without a sting then that would be a change in their genetic makeup a mutation
However that's not the case, nothing has changed in the bees genetic make up, just how the genes are activated or expressed
Just because we choose non propolising bees to propagate from doesn't mean they lose the ability to collect and use propolis
They just don't do it or are not inclined to under normal circumstance

This is a study that might be relevant to the subject
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0916160845.htm

hope that's not too boring  :Smile: 
sinkingcanoe.jpg

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## Jon

Has anyone actually demonstrated that aggressive bees which sting and follow are better at defending the hive and ensuring its survival? These are traits which expend a lot of energy which could be spent elsewhere and could well be detrimental if the colony if it is forever defending itself against trivial intrusion. There is always a trade off

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## gavin

> This is a study that might be relevant to the subject
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0916160845.htm


Another excellent example of epigenetics in action.  Coordinated regulation of banks of genes that work together when an individual goes along a different developmental or behavioural path, in this case temporarily.

For the avoidance of doubt, your posts are always welcome!

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## Jon

There was a post on Bee-L this morning with another example.




> New work by Ben Oldroyd and all describes changes in gene expression between mated and unmated queens. 
> 
> Gene expression in the brains of mated queens differs strongly from that seen in virgins. Strikingly, genes that are associated with vision were all down-regulated in mated queens compared to virgins. Changes in the expression of these visual perception genes mirrors the transition from photophilic behaviour observed in virgin queens that engage in mating flights, to more photophobic behaviour in mated queens confined within the nest. 
> 
> Queens are required to fly during swarming events, and it would be interesting to see if the vision system is reactivated in queens as they prepare to swarm. It would also be interesting to determine whether queens of open nesting honey bee species like Apis florea, in which the queens are able and ready to fly at all times, show the same decline in vision-related genes after mating.
> 
> The last important group of genes that differ between mated and virgin queens is the immune genes. With the exception of defensin, all immune genes were up-regulated in mated queens and this is likely to result in higher immunocompetence as more defense molecules, such as antimicrobial peptides, are produced, and cellular responses or wound healing reactions may be more effective. Increased expression of immune genes post mating has been observed repeatedly in honey bees and other organisms 
> 
> Manfredini, F., Brown, M. J., Vergoz, V., & Oldroyd, B. P. (2015). RNA-sequencing elucidates the regulation of behavioural transitions associated with the mating process in honey bee queens. BMC Genomics, 16(1), 563.

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## SDM

> Has anyone actually demonstrated that aggressive bees which sting and follow are better at defending the hive and ensuring its survival? These are traits which expend a lot of energy which could be spent elsewhere and could well be detrimental if the colony if it is forever defending itself against trivial intrusion. There is always a trade off


I can't speak about "following", other than to say I can't see how it would give an advantage (it would most likely be detrimental, since stinging away from the hive would be pointless).
But I got a pretty good demonstration of how useful a more aggressive bee is from my own garden recently during a robbing attack. The only colony not completely stripped of stores and not at least halved in numbers was my feisty girls. Less than half the size of any other colony and they simply remained untouched. My super gentle Buckfast bees(some colonies have never stung in >3yrs) got Massacred .
I know its a spectacularly narrow observation, but it is indicative of what I meant. I

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## The Drone Ranger

Bees that don't sting the beekeeper are still usually pretty good a dealing with wasps etc
Some bees get it into their heads that the beekeeper is bad news Usually after a bungled inspection etc and they can switch to being quite fiesty if you don't leave them alone for a good while
That's just what I find subjectively I doubt anyone has studied it  :Smile:

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## SDM

That would imply they " learn" to differentiate between types of threat.
I can say for sure that since the robbing attacks, they have been much more lively when I'm about too. I would suggest that after such a bungled inspection they are probably more alert to any invaders and not just the beek.

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## prakel

..... moved to a different thread!

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## The Drone Ranger

> That would imply they " learn" to differentiate between types of threat.
> I can say for sure that since the robbing attacks, they have been much more lively when I'm about too. I would suggest that after such a bungled inspection they are probably more alert to any invaders and not just the beek.


I am pretty sure that's right SDM
They can be in a high state of alert so to speak

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