# General beekeeping > Everything and anything >  todays news

## GRIZZLY

Bees have been very active today,bringing in loads of pollen mostly from the Whins which are now coming into flower although we've got very prolific Snowdrops and a few Crocus.All colonies seem to have wintered well so far but I must keep an eye on their stores and supplement if necessary.   :Embarrassment:   :Embarrassment:

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Grizzly
As said when we met last year- You are in a veritable honey bee paradise.  Watch out for Calum!

Grizzly wrote:
I must keep an eye on their stores and supplement if necessary. 

Eric

..............................

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## Calum

Yup Grzzly keep one eye fixed on their wieght.
If it stays warm and they have a good pollen flow they will build up quickly and burn through their stores at a fair old rate.

All mine were out in force over the weekend, but since then we have hardly been above 5°C. 
The ten frame colonies were all nice and heavy, so I'll let them get on with it.

Eric is only miffed that I pulled two studies out that have proven that feeding colonies that are in no need of it does nothing positive for them, infact in one study they faired less well.

But I would never advise against not feeding starving bees!

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Calum
Don't I get to make jokes too?

Eric

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## Calum

only if you get written permission!

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## GRIZZLY

Nothing but heavy rain today with very cold strong winds.Bees gone back to bed.Temp to go up later on in the week but heavy rain forcast again.Brrrr. El Paradiso is struggling at the moment Eric!!!--you'll have to stop doing your rain dance.

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## EmsE

We had a beautiful spring day yesterday. It was the first one of the new year when I wasn't at work, it was 6 degrees and it was dry & not too windy. I enjoyed watching the bees hover in front of the hives, some were bringing in small amounts of orange pollen and even my stroppy hive were oblivious to me slightly raising 1 frame in the top box to see how far up they were.

Then today we had a lot of snow throughout the morning which was washed away by the rain which followed...and cold too  :Frown:

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## Calum

10 cm snow today here too. Pity the hazel was giving great pollen snowdrops and crocous too.

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## GRIZZLY

Gone warm again 2day. Bees pouring in and out loaded with pollen.Seem very strong.

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## Trog

My lot were all flying early in the morning but the rain soon put paid to the party. I'm  hoping they'll get out to the snowdrops tomorrow.  Frogs were hard at it in the ponds, though.  Looks like a population explosion is on the cards for this year!

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Grizzly
In the words of the song "I can't dance don't ask me"!

Bees well  out here today - in the mid afternoon but chasd back in by rain!  Tomorrow Thursday is looking good 12 C!  We'll see!

Eric

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## HensandBees

all bees flying  at last  and pollen going in . and just in case I was nt sure  saw  one bee busy packing her legs on a crocus ...yeeees

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## HensandBees

grrrrrrrrrrrr  cold and wet again

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## GRIZZLY

All Colonies flying well today despite the cold.Getting back to the hive with pollen.They've still got plenty of stores although I'll keep an  eye  on them just to make sure.

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## GRIZZLY

Whins realy coming into flower and won't be long before our 240 willow trees are flowering.Everything else is well into bud and will be adding to the early stores.Colonies seem very strong this year unlike last when the prolongued cold kept the queens egg laying suppressed.Got to keep an eye on hive space to keep a check on early swarming!.Might have to Demaree later on perhaps.

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## GRIZZLY

Still cold but  lots of activity. Plenty of stores to finish yet-hives quite heavy when hefted.How are the colonies further north getting on??

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## Gscot

Quite cold yet in Central Scotland Some activity when the temp. gets up a bit and bringing in some light green pollen(think its the alder catkins)but very few days when there out.Not much blooming here at the moment

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## Jon

We had a glorious day here today, sunshine from dawn to dusk.
The nucs at the bottom of the garden were bringing in pollen first thing with the temperature around 6c.
I noticed a willow tree just 20 feet away in a neighbour's garden was covered in yellow catkins and the bees were all over it.

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## Calum

15°C today, checked 15 colonies, sold another three only three to check tomorrow. Lovely day. The bees were even finding nectar from somewhere.

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## Hoomin_erra

Well i'm still under a foot of snow. No activity that i can see, although when i opened them up a few weeks ago when we had the short warm spell i had eggs in one colony.

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## gavin

Had a foray into Highland Perthshire last night for a beekeepers' meeting and there was snow on the ground there too.  Survival locally seems to have been reasonable so far - although they are acutely aware of course that winter is far from over.

At lunchtime today the back-from-death wee colony in the garden was out and about in the sunshine.  Good to see that it is still alive.  Maybe I'll get to have a better look at the apiary on Saturday as it looks like they may be flying then.

That was a cracking picture Calum.

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## kevboab

Finally ! Some sunshine. Good to see my girls flying instead of cuddling a bar of cadbury's fondant with central heating running full pelt.  :-) Three colonies looking in good shape with pollen available when weather permits. So chuffed ! :-D

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## GRIZZLY

Cold,dank misty this morning-temperature expected to rise to 11 deg later.A quick peek into the top of the hives yesterday revealed bees crammed into every space.Must give more room to prevent forced swarming plus feed to keep them building up. With a bit of luck I'll be able to take off some early splits this season.
Checked the varroa boards under the floors and found 1 mite under 1 colony after a week-all the others seem clean.I will leave full inspections until the end of the month.Still loads of pollen coming in-mostly Whins I think.Good to have such strong early colonies to take full advantage of the OSR and Sycamores.

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## Neils

Today, well ok yesterday, I resisted the urge to go poking around in beehives.  The weather was lovely but still a little cold for my liking.

So we went to B&Q instead, bought some wood and started making some hive stands as per the plans on dave cushman's site.

Time to get ready for this season in earnest!

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## Calum

B&Q? Sounds expensive.... 
My tip - many large companies that import or export anything are happy for anyone to come and take away their non euro pallets- trailer loads- otherwise they have to pay to get rid of them..
Dave complains they do not provide enough ventilation (half my hives are on old closed bottoms and I hear no complaints) one or two planks can be removed to improve ventilation. 
I stack 4 high to save my back.

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## Neils

Got one colony on pallets at the moment, certainly doable and not noticed any problems with ventilation, I just fancied something a little nicer looking this time.  4 Hive stands for £20 of wood and a £5 of glue that'll do for plenty of other projects (like the Thornes seconds brood boxes I've got in the garage).

4 high sounds about right for pallets, mine is on two and despite being a 14x12 it's far too low to be comfortable inspecting.

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## EmsE

Lovely day here in the west managing 14 degrees. Went fishing with the Hubbie and spent my time trying to get pictures of the honey bees in the Gorse flower. Challenge now is to find the usb lead to upload them onto the computer.

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## gavin

Fishing?!  I'm starting to realise that one thing quite a few beekeepers do (after keeping chooks of course, which seems almost universal) is fishing.  Some even do both.

Of course, we have vegetarians watching too, so I'll shut up now.

Lovely to see that the bees are out everywhere.  Get these pictures up!  Even a blog?

If anyone has any trouble putting up images (I'm aware that the site can misbehave) I can upload them to an area on the SBAi server if you like, then you can link to them from there.

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## Trog

Fishing!!!!!!!!  Ah, yes.  15 March was far too cold here to even think about opening the season.  Warming up nicely now, though, and plenty of insect life around.  Have tied some new flies ready but likely to be too busy to use them anytime soon.  Maybe, just maybe, if I can take a break from painting or assembling kitchen cabinets I might be able to take a closer look at the bees tomorrow if it's really warm again.

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## gavin

My main fishing companion (my son Euan) is far away at the moment in British Colombia, so my trips out may be fewer this summer.  It looks like you may get your wish.  Should be a reasonable day tomorrow.

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## Neils

Colleague spotted another CBPV corpse outside one of my hives today.  Not 100% convinced it's not the same one I saw the other day and we had some (very) light poo spotting on another colony in the same apiary.  Think it might be time to get the matchbox out and do the sensible thing. My head tells me that it's probably nothing too much to get worked up about and I was intending to try and get a quick inspection in over the weekend, but the weather's supposed to cool down again, but I'm going to have to do at least a quick look on this one I think but perhaps leave condensing the double brood down to a single box for later in preparation to Bailey change it to a 14x12 as I think that might take more time than I want a colony open for at the moment.

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## Calum

CBPV corpse  ? whats that?

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## Neils

Bee that is now pushing up the daisies that appears to have met its maker from Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus.

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## GRIZZLY

What an active last few days.The temperature has been high enough for a quick peek inside-loads of sealed brood,eggs and larvae.Bees VERY gentle and returning to the hives LADEN with pollen.Signs of fresh nectar as well.Still only found one dead mite under one colony after a week.Weather to get colder as the weekend approaches so will probably curtail foraging for a while.Time to keep an eye on stores as with all the brood activity they'll quickly consume everything.

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## GRIZZLY

Activity slowed a bit today with the drop in temperature.Bumbles getting active again.

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## EmsE

Saw a few different bumbles in the garden today- 1 fussing around the compost heap.

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## Neils

Bumbles spotted here too. Unconfirmed rumours of bees living in the gaps in the brickwork in one of our garden walls, but nothing see around the solitary bee shelter I put up a couple of weeks ago.

Been through two of my hives yesterday, I'd forgotten just how much I love doing this. Sadly too cold to take a leisurely look through them, but just having the hives open and seeing my ladies makes me happy.

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## Jimbo

Colonies at sea level last week were doing well and pollen going in but the colonies on the hill were not so active and no pollen seen. All OK today with pollen now going into all hives in abundance. Will need to get my breeding plan sorted and not leave it to the last minute as usual.

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## lindsay s

Hello all 
It’s been about 8°c here for the last few days and the forecast for the next 10 days isn’t very bee friendly lots more wind and rain on the way. I had a quick look at my apiary yesterday and all 8 hives had bees flying at different strengths, I didn’t get too close, as I had left my veil at home. As soon as we get a calm day I’ll clean the hive floors and check the weight of stores. I’m hoping to do less spring feeding this year.
I’ve spoken to a few local beekeepers and nobody seems to have suffered any winter losses but its early days yet and no doubt some of us will find drone layers or queenless colonies once we can get into our hives.
 The dandelions are starting to make an appearance, they’re an important source of spring forage up here and hopefully they will be in abundance this year. 
Lindsay in Orkney (it’s a little bit north of Bristol)

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## Neils

> Lindsay in Orkney (it’s a little bit north of Bristol)


 :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

Is this going to be another winter that flies in the face of the "bees are dying!!!!!" I wonder?

I've checked two of my three so far and they both look fine. Looking at the forecast I think the other one will have to wait a little while but it looks good at the entrance.  Funnily enough the one thing I haven't seen yet are dandelions, even on the paths in the allotment. I do work in concrete land though.

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## GRIZZLY

Still lots of activity despite the high winds (forecast 60mph for here) Light fawn pollen at the moment - haven't a clue as to the source.Whins still flowering strongly and my cherry trees bursting buds-fingers crossed theres no late frost.Daffodils are giving their best showing ever and very forward.

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## Hoomin_erra

Finally a good day to open up the hives. Both building with eggs and Larva present, stores building, and pollen coming in.
Being my first winter, there are a few combs where i have dead bees in the cells arse out, and mould on the comb. Will the bees clear it? or do i need to replace the comb?

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## GRIZZLY

NOT a beekeeping day today - cold,wet dank low cloud, bees shivvering. Not nice.

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## gavin

It looks like it might be improving for the weekend though?  I've just seen a circle with '19' in it for my part of Scotland on Saturday so maybe I'll get a proper look at them then.  Here in the Netherlands summer seemed to arrive yesterday afternoon.  The swallows are here, maybe Galloway has them too?

G.

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## GRIZZLY

> It looks like it might be improving for the weekend though?  I've just seen a circle with '19' in it for my part of Scotland on Saturday so maybe I'll get a proper look at them then.  Here in the Netherlands summer seemed to arrive yesterday afternoon.  The swallows are here, maybe Galloway has them too?
> 
> G.


 Still waiting for the first swallow Gavin--won't be long now.We've had a couple of Blackcaps - male and female on the fat balls yesterday and today tho'.Our different bird species count has just reached 59. The bees are going crazy,pollen pouring in and I presume nectar too.Going to have the first real inspection if the temperature remains high.There are so many bees in the hives that I'm going to have to super as well, as much for room as anything.

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## chris

No swallows yet, but the first cuckoo. I did my first inspection proper this morning. All fine and building beautifully. One hive bursting and drones flying, so I did a split and moved one half to the cherry orchard. The trees are in flower- a month ahead of usual. Hopefully all will go well as it is my most productive hive. I was planning to split it this year, though not nearly so soon. I have this horrible feeling that all this gain will have to be paid later. Or maybe it's just the pessimist beekeeper blues.

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## Neils

Well, I seem to be down a queen already and I still haven't managed to inspect all my colonies yet.  One of the colonies is distinctly lacking in eggs and young larvae and there are 3-4  supersedure cells on one of the frames so I'll leave them alone now for a couple of weeks and see how they get on.  I've given them a super in the meantime and have started a bailey change on the other colony. The hive on the nature reserve I've still yet to inspect this year, but I hope to get to it before next weekend.

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## Jimbo

Hi Nellie,

A bit early for queen cells. Is there any drones? I did see a few drones today when we opened the club hives to mark the queens but they would not likely be sexually mature yet.

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## Neils

That's what I though, but they are there and it doesn't appear to be swarming, t  They're a reasonably strong colony and there are a few drones around in the hives at the moment, but not a huge number. They definitely had a queen two weeks ago, but apparently not today and not for some time by the looks of it.

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## Calum

finally got the last of the supers on my colonies, so now all but two on three magazines. 18°C here so the dandylion is giving nectar, pear trees all in full flower too. Selling of three colonies tomorrow - big demand here, estimated over 200000 colony losses in Germany. 
Warnings from one of the beekeeping institutes to be on the lookout for swarms before the end of april and heavy varroa infestation. Seens about right with what is happening here in my area..

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## gavin

Pear is not quite out yet here but some plums are.  And dandelions, and blackthorn.  The bees were bringing in a variety of pollen types today.

My bees have mostly survived but some of them are really weak.  Three I'm happy with and three have just made it.  Two didn't.

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## GRIZZLY

Inspection day today.All colonies have come thro' the winter very strongly.All on 7 or 8 full frames of sealed brood with loads of stores and pollen.Going to be good candidates for the OSR and Sycamore.Plum blossom out,Cherry,Apple and Pear showing advanced flower buds.Queens are laying well with eggs and larvae of all stages.Still only the one colony showing very slight varroa-not an urgent candidate for treatment.I am getting my Modern Beekeeping Nationals this coming week so will shook swarm all the colonies onto new frames and clean wax in new hives . I intend taking splits from the remaining brood.

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## EmsE

Absolutely beautiful here for the past 2 days. I enjoyed my first inspection of the year today and the bees were so calm despite me changing their brood box for a nice fresh 1. There's 5 frames of brood in 1 colony & 4 in the other. There seemed to be an awful lot of stores in both- will need to provide more space I think for the queen next time I go down to see them. I checked the floor debris from 1 hive (collecting since 23/03) & no varroa found. My red current bushes have been in flower since last weekend & the bumbles (and a wasp) have been enjoying them, still waiting on the pears, but I have seen some lovely fruit trees in blossom- not sure what type yet.

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## gavin

The earliest of the pears were out today in the old orchard which seems to be something that happened overnight, but most of the pears (grand old trees up to 100 years old) are not yet out.  Probably this morning rather than overnight for these first few to open, come to think of it.  Plums are in full flower as are the local blackthorn.  Apples are yet to come.

The most further on of mine will need an extra box soon and I may plump for a brood box to assist with nuc raising later.  Also couldn't find any Varroa on the floors.  Mine also seem to have been frugal with their stores overwinter, mostly taking around half of the half block of fondant on top and still with a couple of frames of stores each.

I still need to do a spring clean, replacing floors and painting some of the more scruffy looking supers.

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## Neils

Still got one hive I haven't looked at yet, but spent the day playing with hawks and just had enough time when I got home to make up another brood box. 2 down one to go though I don't think either of the allotment colonies are in any immediate danger of swarming!

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## lindsay s

I was just intending to clean the hive floors today but the weather was warm and sunny so I managed my first inspection of the year as well. Seven out of eight of my colonies were OK. One hive had a drone-laying queen and this was the hive that was vandalised last year. I think the queen was superseded late in the year and wasn’t properly mated. I’ve now united this hive and it was curtains for the queen. 
None of my colonies have more than 2 or 3 frames of brood but this is quite normal for this time of year in Orkney. All the hives are OK for stores so I’ll let them build in there own time. I’m jealous of all you southern beekeepers who have to super their hives as it will be well into may before I can even think about that.



> I am getting my Modern Beekeeping Nationals this coming week so will shook swarm all the colonies onto new frames and clean wax in new hives . I intend taking splits from the remaining brood.


 :Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused:  If you are removing your bees from their old brood combs whats happening to the brood.
P. S. I have just been speaking to a beekeeping friend in Wiltshire he had a swarm arrive in an empty nuc box at his house today.

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## GRIZZLY

.

: If you are removing your bees from their old brood combs whats happening to the brood.


Allowed to hatch out on top of new supers.  B.box stood on Snelgrove board so that I can filter emerging brood down to main hive..If mature drones were available I would make splits with the old brood and allow them to make queens.

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## GRIZZLY

Swallows arrived this morning Gavin.Bees flying well,gathering water,pollen and I presume nectar.They were very quiet and well behaved when I inspected them.I don't know why but we always make the first report on Swallows in the district.

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## Jon

My Conference pear tree was in flower at the end of last week and the Victoria plum was in flower before the end of March. I have several apple trees in flower a full 3 weeks earlier than last year.

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## onj

Saw two swallows in Dunbar yesterday. Loads of blackthorne, cherry and plum out here. It was 18 degrees on saturday, so I gave mt bees a visit. Both colonies doing well, foragers coming back covered in yellow pollen, I suspect from the plentiful gorse. Also some creamy white pollen which is not on my chart.

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## Hoomin_erra

Grampians are awash with Cherry, Gorse, and Blackthorn. Willow is still going, although they are coming to an end. Some of the fields are starting to turn yellow. Though i am not sure if that is Rape or something else. Possibly a green manure?

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## EmsE

> Also some creamy white pollen which is not on my chart.


My bees were also bringing in creamy white pollen a few weeks ago and I don't know what it is.

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## chris

I took the grandchildren for a picnic to the cherry orchard today. On arriving I noticed that in the blackthorn hedge, and just behind the nuc from a split that I'd put there, there was a nice sized swarm. I was *sure* that the queen from the hive I’d split was in the other hive back at the main apiary and that as I’d put all stages of brood, the bees would have stayed put in the nuc. However you never can be sure with bees, and with a witch just down the road. Anyway, rapidly sorting my priorities, I ate the good food, drank the fine wine, and leaving the grandchildren with my wife, went off and collected my gear.
Looking in my nuc, I saw all was fine, so this was a swarm from elsewhere, though I’ve no idea from where as I know of no other bees nearby. The law says that if you have a Corsican mother in law you can claim any swarm, so this one would be for replacing the one the witch ate the other week. As it was attached to intertwining branches from different bushes I decided to try the following: I put just one frame of old comb at each side of the hive and then manoeuvred the hive into the 18 or so inches under the swarm. I quickly cut all the branches, closed up the hive, waited to check that any stragglers were trying to get inside, and took it back to my main apiary. There, I opened up, and on top of the tangle of thorny twigs and bees I put 8 super frames of drawn comb. I’ll check in a couple of days, and should be able to throw out the blackthorn.
I’ve now got to quickly prepare some bait hives as I’ve a feeling some bees are showing too much interest in one of the chimneys.

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## Trog

> My bees were also bringing in creamy white pollen a few weeks ago and I don't know what it is.


It could be wood anemone.  We had a few bees down in our wood working the anemones and their pollen was creamy white.  Not many bees, though, even though it was only a couple of yards away.  They're spoilt for choice for forage now so I suppose there were more attractive/better yielding sources around.

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## Trog

Interesting, Chris.  My lot also seem to prefer blackthorn for swarming into!

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## chris

IMG_2718.JPG

The swarm watching us picnic

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## chris

I checked the hived swarm yesterday. All was fine. The queen had started laying 
The twigs and bits of branch were more or less abandoned, and I could throw them out.
Attachment 597
 In one place where I couldn't fit any frames because of the twigs coming too high, the bees had constructed some comb attached to the cover board ,to fill the gap.
Attachment 596 
You can see the wax makers working below the frame.
Attachment 595

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## Neils

Today's escapades: http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...th-with-a-bump.

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## Calum

a great couple of hours today with the bees.
12kg weight gain in the last 7 days on the hive on scales.
Made 3 new colonies up, and 12 queens are being raised in a 6 frame nuc I set up last weekend (yesterday I removed all swarm cells so they jumped at the material I gave them today). Will remove them on Wed and add another 12..
Seven of my colonies are doing really well, three are a little behind. I'm giving my last over wintered spare colony away, so thats those out of the way too.
I'll sleep well tonight.

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## GRIZZLY

Finaly got the residue my poly nationals today.I had collected 3 at the BBKA meet at Stoneleigh on Saturday from the Modern Beekeeping stand leaving them owing me 7.  I will be spending the next few days assembling and painting them before transferring my bees to their new homes.Just in time for the local O.S.R.which is just coming into flower - this is quite a bit later than the Rape "down south".Met phil McAnespie and John Mellis down there - representing us Scottish lot.Lots of foreign equipment manufacturers as well as the usual British suppliers - some realy mouth watering (and expensive) equipment on show.
Examination of my colonies going to plan - no sign of Q cells or cups yet and the Queens continueing to lay well.The bees are very gentle and a pleasure to handle.Plenty of stores coming in now with surplus being stored in the supers and lots of pollen in the brood boxes.Bees all over my fruit trees and soft fruit bushes - could be a bumper year especially if the present warm weather holds.Temperatures 21 deg.C today and the same promised for tomorrow.

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## Calum

Grizzly do you remove your cups?

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## GRIZZLY

> Grizzly do you remove your cups?


 No just leave them but they are on new(last year) frames and just haven't built any cups yet.

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## Neils

Picked up a second swarm this morning, they seem to come to us now, both have settled within 10 feet of each other maybe 20 feet from the apiary. Two nice prime swarms and definitely not ours (wrong colour to be from my friends hives and I've got no laying queens at the moment).

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## Calum

made two nucs today, both six framers. The stock scale is up 15kg on sunday no wonder they are in the mood to swarm.
Wood honey coming in now, pity I was looking forward to a good spring honey crop, now we will only get a mix..  :Frown:  
Oh well the second super will be going on most of the colonies tomorrow, and thats me out of frames. With only 4 casts done!

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## Neils

Today I wasn't supposed to be doing bee things, we went up to sort out the allotment.

My friend arrived in short time, we'd looked at one of his hives that appeared to be queenless 4 days ago.  There were apparently two queen cells in the colony and we weren't sure whether it was swarming or supersedure.  There were still eggs in the colony but despite going through it twice we couldn't see the queen.

So we decided to put the two frames with queen cells into a nuc, come back today and see if we could see eggs anywhere and take it from there. We knew there shouldn't be eggs in the nuc as we were pretty sure the queen wasn't in there, we were hoping to see eggs in the main brood box.

Today, there were no eggs in the Nuc, no eggs in the main colony, but a bunch more queen cells that we'd almost certainly missed looking last time. We think now that they've swarmed and are possbily one of the swarms we collected. we didn't before, but once again, queen cells are easy to miss when they're covered in bees, the new ones were on the frames of drone brood.

We decided to knock down all but one of the queen cells in the main brood box and leave the nuc as is, it's bled all its flying bees and we'll move it again next week just before the queens start to emerge, this way seems like hedging our bets. There's enough bees and brood in the nuc to keep going, plus stores. If the queen cell in the main brood box doesn't do anything, hopefully we'll end up with a queen in the nuc. If we get both, maybe we'll sell the nuc on.

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## gavin

All this swarm talk is making me twitchy.  I last saw my bees 5 days ago when I thought: 'Hmmnn, must give *that* one a second brood box at the weekend, and *those* ones more space within a week'.  Maybe I can slip away at lunchtime tomorrow to do the deed.  I'm sitting here with that mixed aroma of western red cedar, beeswax and PVA glue, the smell of spring equipment assembly.  Nice.

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## gavin

> Wood honey coming in now, pity I was looking forward to a good spring honey crop, now we will only get a mix..


Is that the stuff from aphids on spruce trees?  That seems awful early.

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## Jon

The sycamore flowers are about to open and the horse chestnut is already in flower in Balmy Belfast

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## gavin

Sycamore well out here.  The dandelions seem to be at their peak too which seems wrong somehow.  I think that they usually manage to bloom before the OSR but this year the OSR was very early.  Maybe they (the dandelions) are sticking to the calendar but some other things not?  Where is a botanist when you need him ....

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## Jon

The blackthorn and the hawthorn are in flower at the same time here. I can't remember that happening before.
Blackthorn flowers late March and Hawthorn mid to late May in a normal year.
Apple blossom 3 weeks early as well. Pear and plum normal flowering time. Dandelion flowered early but there is still a lot about.

Oil seed rape about normal as well.

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## gavin

That's odd - I don't think that our hawthorn is out yet.  We seem to have two types of blackthorn.  Planted ones around road landscaping and the like which is always earlier (and now over) and blackthorn in copses and the like which is later and still in flower.  Probably real native stuff in the copses and some exotic genotype in the plantings. 

Maybe they need exotic bees too to go with all this exotic planting.

We did have some early dandelion but there is now a major showing of it in some places.

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## Neils

> All this swarm talk is making me twitchy.  I last saw my bees 5 days ago when I thought: 'Hmmnn, must give *that* one a second brood box at the weekend, and *those* ones more space within a week'.  Maybe I can slip away at lunchtime tomorrow to do the deed.  I'm sitting here with that mixed aroma of western red cedar, beeswax and PVA glue, the smell of spring equipment assembly.  Nice.


We're definitely a month + ahead of last year looking through my notes. Our Association has a "deal with swarming" day next month which, ordinarily would be fine. Not this year. One of mine swarmed, I reckon around 10th April, I hadn't even opened it up yet and we've picked up another two since then.

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## Jimbo

Checked my strongest colony yesterday and saw drones which means they will be mature in a few weeks. The bees were also making queen cups so it will now be weekly inspections for this one.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I checked the hived swarm yesterday. All was fine. The queen had started laying 
> The twigs and bits of branch were more or less abandoned, and I could throw them out.
> Attachment 597 ...


Chris or Gavin, 

The attachments lead to an 'invalid attachment' message - am I the only one who can't see them?

Kitta

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## chris

Hello Kitta. I had trouble uploading, so perhaps it won't work. Works for me but that's probably normal. I know nothing about computers, so Gavin will have to help out.

Updating, I checked the hive again yesterday. Ahem, it's never too late to do something stupid. My idea was that the bees would build beneath the super frames in the brood box, and then I'd nadir them out with a second brood box.. Firstly, I didn't think of putting a starter strip underneath the bottom bar. My, my, they have cross combed like crazy down there. And, I find that I used an old hive that has the floor screwed to it by screws going up from the bottom.So, no nadir, and no possibility of taking out the *half* frames with dangling comb without causing a lot of damage. Any ideas anyone?

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## gavin

I have to admit that the site can be a bit erratic about accepting uploads.  Chris, if you'd like to email the attachment to me I can try to make them visible.  

Regarding your wee cross-combing and dead-end nadiring problem - I'd just put a normal box on top and let them work upwards as usual.  Your odd box of comb might be vacated later in the summer, or you could wait until next spring when surely it will be empty as the bees go up above?

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## gavin

I checked mine yesterday.  Significant build-up in the last 6 days, nice new white wax where they had been stuffing in the honey.  Two are now double-brooded and another will be getting a super soon.  If only I could arrange to have strong spring colonies as some do then I might have had an early super by now.  They are working the rape but - at least judging from the pollen at the entrance - not exclusively.  No sign of bees hunching up and closing one eye, so maybe my bees have escaped the neonic holocaust once again.  Must get some bait boxes sorted (whilst watching the Royal Wedding with one eye of course) on Friday.  Sycamore in full flow, despite some rain the other day the OSR probably isn't yielding as it could.

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## EmsE

> I don't think that our hawthorn is out yet.  
> .


The hawthorn flower buds are there, so shouldn't be too long now. There'll hopefully be a better crop of berries from them this year- they make lovely wine.

My colonies are definitely a couple of weeks ahead at least of last year & that's without stimulating them with weak syrup & pollen patties like I did last year.

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## gavin

My wine-making kit is going to be occupied making mead this year, he says optimistically!

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## EmsE

> It could be wood anemone.  We had a few bees down in our wood working the anemones and their pollen was creamy white.  Not many bees, though, even though it was only a couple of yards away.  They're spoilt for choice for forage now so I suppose there were more attractive/better yielding sources around.


It probably is as the surrounding land is ideal for the wood anemone. Thanks Trog- it's time I started getting to know my local plants.

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## EmsE

I've been promising the hubbie home grown mead for the past couple of yrs and he's still not got any :Embarrassment:  As they say, good things come to those who wait- it'll taste so much better when it's finally brewed (come on bees pleeeeeeeease!)

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## b.lambert

putting a second super onto double brood this morning, looked at them on Tuesday and it is boiling over with bees! placed first super on 14th with drawn comb and some foundation has drawn it all out and honey being made. Could not find her Maj but plenty evidence of her presence 13 frames of brood, eggs and larvae. Yesterday neighbor had gardeners in with noisy machines, just before this I had been sitting out almost falling asleep with the hum of the girls when the silence was broken.  Within the next five min's I had about half a dozen bees intent on stinging me!  One got caught up in my hair  the furious buzzing noise indicating her intent, managed to free it then let it go outside I then went back out only to be attacked by the same bee again! Alas, her valiant actions led to her demise but not without a result!  Now the question pondering is was it the machines? or were they still unsettled from the inspection on Tues?   Hope they are in better fettle this morning

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I have to admit that the site can be a bit erratic about accepting uploads.  Chris, if you'd like to email the attachment to me I can try to make them visible.  
> 
> Regarding your wee cross-combing and dead-end nadiring problem - I'd just put a normal box on top and let them work upwards as usual.  Your odd box of comb might be vacated later in the summer, or you could wait until next spring when surely it will be empty as the bees go up above?


Chris, I'm still curious to see your photos, please.
Kitta

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## chris

IMG_2736.JPG

IMG_2733.JPG 

IMG_2742.JPG

Kitta, I've just given my computer a hernia. Does this work?

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## gavin

It does - thanks Chris and apologies for not getting round to it myself.

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## gavin

> Hope they are in better fettle this morning


Hope that they were.  Mine have been really calm this year but yesterday were a bit more defensive.  I think that generally follows a build up - when they are stronger they can afford to be more aggressive with intruders.

Lovely day for a spot of beekeeping!  I wonder if Thornes is open today?

G

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## Calum

My mirst 7 queens from 2011 hachted today! Another seven will be out on sunday, and seven more a week later.
Excellent. Cool week so only 7kg weight gain this week so far on the scales... What is the going price for mated queens in scotland?

----------


## gavin

Thornes charge £48 but their prices for nucs are about double the price if you buy locally and maybe that applies to queens too.  To be honest I don't know how much trade there is in mated queens.  Some folk will give them away to friends and association colleagues.  Folk ought to be prepared to pay for quality locally raised queens, especially from known, bred stocks.  Maybe we'll be able to do that one day and at least recover the not inconsiderable costs of doing it properly.  We had some plans to do this in the east of Scotland but there are other pressures on folk's time and resources at the moment so I'm not sure that much is going to happen this year.  Jon raises queens in NI.  Are you planning to sell some of them Jon?  

'Only' a 7kg weight gain?!

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## Jon

Dunno. I suppose it depends how many I get mated. I have 18 Apideas. 
I have volunteered to get a breeding programme up and running through my bka and we are meeting on Monday evenings starting 9th May.
A lot of my free time will be going into that but hopefully a few others will help spread the donkey work if you pardon the expression.
There should be more than 50 apideas available.

I might concentrate on more queens but less nucs this year as it is hard getting the bees to make up the nucs. I have one queen right cell raiser set up already and I have some cells due to hatch on the 8th May. A few colonies are making drones now.

I can graft from a pure bred Galtee queen mated in the Galtee valley with Galtee drones or I can graft from some of my own queens, some of which have Galtee genetics in them.

There is one guy in my bka who has 40+ colonies so if he wants to get nucs ready for new members, I could provide the queens.

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## gavin

Turns out that Thornes wasn't open.  Hrmfff.  And half of Newburgh was out having a Union Jack be-decked party!  What an odd place.

Spotted plenty of Correx in the fields beside the roads though!  Many of them a nice shade of blue.

So I retreated to the apiary and did some box painting and scraping and dusty corner roasting (there's a knack to keeping those blowtorch thingies alight, basically keep them upright).  One colony even let me paint linseed oil on the new brood box atop the old one without getting dressed up for the occasion.

I had a few visitors whilst standing with a brush or roller in hand.  A few red mason bees, showing that they don't just congretate at my front porch.  A queen wasp (she never hesitated and quickly moved on).  An even two high-pitched honey bees.  You know the noise they make when they are telling the world that they are in a desperate hurry to do something?  Ready to go and win a half-mile race?!  They sniffed around the piles of woodware giving it all the once-over.  They *must* be house-hunting surely, and if so they are none of mine and they were a nice dark colour.  Quickly readied a couple of nuc boxes and spotted a few drops of lemon grass oil on the top bars and on the entrance, just in case.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> 
> Kitta, I've just given my computer a hernia. Does this work?


Yes, thanks Chris.  My sympathies.  I hope you can sort it out soon.

Kitta

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## b.lambert

does the lemon grass attract them? I use lots of essential oils and I have often wondered if their therapeutic properties could be used when dealing with the bees for example the apiguard has lots of thymol within is composition thymol coming from thymus vulgaris.  I have often used lavender oil on myself before going to the hive and I swear it calms them! have never found any research on essential oils and bees interested if any one knows of any articles

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## b.lambert

sorry I meant apistan

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## gavin

Sounds like Newburgh wasn't so odd after all with 50% of the UK population glued to their TVs yesterday.

Interesting that oils may calm them.  My lemon grass oil is always in the pocket of my bee suit - maybe that helps.  Yes, it is good at attracting the attention of bees and helps fill any bait boxes with swarms.  Two drops on the top bar, renew after a month or so.  I also put a spot on the nuc entrances yesterday.

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## Neils

Still no laying queens in any of my hives  :Frown:   I'm giving the one that was a drone layer another 24 hours to be sure. Either there is a new queen or there are some laying workers, but I'm not certain which and there were only a few cells that had eggs in them. Once had an egg on the side of the cell, another few had 2-3 eggs in the cell a few more did appear to have single eggs, but I wasn't 100% sure.  There shouldn't be laying workers as the colony's had donor brood added of which there is still some sealed. I'm going back tomorrow when there'll hopefully be clearer signs as to what is going on.  Needless to say I couldn't find a queen, but I'm going to have another look tomorrow and decide then what I'm going to do (bin them basically if they're laying workers and move one of the swarms into its place)

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## GRIZZLY

Realy too windy to do anything for the past few days.I've got a colony with a single Q cell and I can't find the queen although there are eggs and young brood.A candidate for supercedure perhaps?I expect the queen decamped onto the b.box walls during examination.I've to pick up a colony from one of our members who has given up due to pressure of work.I need to have a good look at them as they have been left to their own devices for the past year.They have however come thro' the winter/spring strongly  and seem to have resisted Varroa quite well-so one to watch in the next few months.I'm still without my car at the moment so am frustrated at not to be able to put my bees on the OSR for a few more days yet despite having 70 acres for my exclusive use.

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## chris

> My lemon grass oil is always in the pocket of my bee suit - ...... Yes, it is good at attracting the attention of bees and helps fill any bait boxes with swarms.  Two drops on the top bar, renew after a month or so.  I also put a spot on the nuc entrances yesterday.


Talking to an old boy today who has been baiting hives for 50 odd years. Being a peasant, he wouldn't go spending money on any *fancy*oils. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

His recipé:
Crush up some old black wax containing some pollen. Add a small amount of water, and boil it up for a few minutes. Leave it to cool and then filter it. Add a little honey to the blackish liquid and spray it on the inside of the hive. You can also scrape some propolis from the inside of a hive. Warm it enough to make a ball that becomes hard and brittle when it cools, and when rubbed on the inside of the bait hive is very effective for attracting bees.

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## chris

Today, the maple (acer campestre) outside my bedroom window has started buzzing. And the one in the chicken yard.I've never seen the bees working them so frantically before.

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## Calum

> Maybe we'll be able to do that one day and at least recover the not inconsiderable costs of doing it properly.  We had some plans to do this in the east of Scotland but there are other pressures on folk's time and resources at the moment so I'm not sure that much is going to happen this year.  Jon raises queens in NI.  Are you planning to sell some of them Jon?  
> 
> 'Only' a 7kg weight gain?!


the costs are not that high! honestly! Jenter or Nicot systems are about 50 pounds. 10kg powderd sugar mixed with 6kg honey for apidea feeding. Bees are free. Apideas do cost, but pay themselves of with the second queen sold. Chinease larve spoon 3 pounds. and if you want to go rolls royce an excellent egg brooder with humidity control is >200 pounds. I will raise 30 queens for my own use this summer. time
make breeder colony 30 - 40 min
(1 week later)
clear breeder of queen cells 15 min  
remove young larve (20) to plastic cups for breeder 50min 
(5 days later)
cage closed queen cells 15 min
7-8 days later
prepare apadieas 10 min / apidea
shake & spary bees from breeder for apidea 15min (quicker if they are in a bad mood)
add bees to apidea and insert queen max 5 min / apidea
I know this because my wife always has the watch on me and enjoys asking me when I'll be finished especially when I am doing something fiddilly with a hand full of bees! 

And yes only 7 kg it was 13 the week before!

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## Jimbo

My plan this year is to produce some queens using the cupkit and mininuc method using Amm colonies that showed 95% Amm using wing morphometry. As well as producing some queens from the hybrid stocks I have by splitting and making up 5 frame nucs for some new beekeepers. Just waiting on sufficient drones to appear before starting which should be within the next few weeks.

Jim

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## Adam

Today I need to inspect a hive that swarmed yesterday and the bees came back. They did it again today. It's the ONLY one I didn't inspect last weekend but I suspect queencells in  there. The queen is clipped so maybe she hasn't gone or walked back or got lost on the grass.

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## Neils

Spent most of the day with Roger Patterson who came to visit us at Bristol to talk bee improvement.  Took a mosey up to the allotment afterwards to test a theory about swarms settling and after he'd left took a look at my colonies... Well almost.

A nuc that wasn't entrance blocked looked a lot busier than it should have been. I knew it had a few old frames of stores in it and initially wondered if it was just being robbed out, but it was far too busy. Sure enough opening it up, it was packed to rafters with bees and also had a nice bit of drawn comb where the 5th frame should have been.  They weren't there on friday so are definitely new additions to the apiary and definitely didn't come from our hives.

As there's no brood there at the moment we decided to shook swarm them into a full hive now before they get too settled.  As this is an unmarked queen my suspicion turns again to the "natural" beekeepers at the bottom of the allotment and a stroll down to eyeball their hive does suggest that the bees may be from there (plus one week ago that we got the prime swarm could well indicate a caste) so we'll be keeping a close eye on them. If it is a virgin queen I wonder whether OA is a good idea and whether a good dose of Icing sugar might do the trick instead.

Mine continue to labour on. I do at least have one queenright colony which is the first swarm that arrived. I gave the Drone Layer that I ran a virgin n a few weeks back a comb of eggs last week and there's a nice fat emergency queen cell on it so it looks like she didn't make it. The other colony is also still queen less so now have a frame of BAS (brood all stages) to play with to hopefully give me some indication as to what they're up to. 

Despite only having drawn half the box, I've stuck a super on the swarm as they're pcking the frames with stores and brood so hopefully the last box of drawn super comb I have will give them a little more room to pack away some honey while they draw out the brood box.

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## gavin

How is the old codger?!

I have a few swarm boxes out but there doesn't seem to be much interest in them yet.

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## Jon

Roger 'Ley Line' Patterson to his friends.
Could be the West Sussex answer to Rudolf Steiner.
Did you mention those bizarre articles in the bbka magazine?
Seems like a perfect opportunity.

I believe he is coming over to NI shortly to speak to the Judean people's front Institute of Northern Ireland beekeepers (INIB) which is affiliated to the bbka. The deadly foe of the Ulster Beekeepers Association (UBKA) of which I am a member.
Might tag along to do some heckling.

Nellie, what about those natural beekeepers? 
Putting their escapees in a national brood box is like feeding meat to a vegetarian.
Do they even know when they lose swarms? If you don't look in the long box you are probably blissfully happy to see the bees continue to fly in and out in a treatment free manner.
Could be quite a varroa load.

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## Neils

He sends his regards, at least I think it can be construed as regards  :Big Grin: 

I did mention the articles, as did he. Might I put on some rose tinted specs and opine that their editor is still finding his/her feet?

I didn't put their escapees in the Nuc, they settled there of their own accord. Did you get their article that appeared in our allotment newsletter by the way?

As they bought the bees from the enemy last summer I'm hoping they're still relatively Varroa free, but I did dose the first swarm with Oxalic Acid. Given the timing it's not unreasonable to assume that what turned up yesterday (presumably) is a caste swarm so I'm a little wary of dosing a virgin queen with oxalic acid.

Obviously we didn't open up the hive, but it otherwise seems to be in reasonable fettle at the moment, but it's early days yet, they picked it up in late July last year so it's not had much time to pick up a large Varroa load. As it had an observation window we might have looked at it through there and it's maybe 7-8 frames at the moment but only just has enough bees covering those frames hence suspecting that we've had two swarms off it so far.  The third we think has come from elsewhere.

Ironically, they have two bait hives out, another TBH and a Warre both of which they could have bees in now. We did consider leaving a note on the hive saying "thanks for the bees" but thought that might be rubbing it in a bit.

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## Jon

> I didn't put their escapees in the Nuc, they settled there of their own accord.


I got the article, thanks.

That must be the Imidacloprid disorientating them. No other explanation for a swarm setting up home in a box which is squarish rather than long.
Why would a bee leave a top bar hive for a national unless it had taken leave of its senses, or perhaps failed to read the collected works of Phil Chandler.

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## Calum

Hectic weekend! 
Harvested about 70% of the frames in my supers, leaving alot of full but uncapped frames behind.
118kg from 56 frames out of 10 colonies. Not bad at all. 
made up another 2 artificial swarms (so nine now in total), have 4 laying queens in apedias that need a home. started another 2 queenless 5 frame colonies on queen cups with three novice beekeepers in attendance (thats worth 100€/student from the Bavarian government).
On the downside I got in lots of trouble for not taking my wife out for mothersday dinner (relocating colonies to a new beehouse) which was yesterday here in Germany... OOOPs that will cost me dear.  :Smile:

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## GRIZZLY

B....y wind,making inspections difficult and low temperatures not helping.Finaly managed to get my two remaining stocks re-hived into their new homes.Both bursting with bees and loads of stores in the B.box.Had to forgo the rape this year due to new plastic hives being such a late delivery.Colonies still got 2 supers on each ,filling up nicely with early spring flower honey-I'll have to add a third soon at this rate.I don't know the nectar sources-maybe bluebell which is very abundent this year.Sycamore is just coming into flower as well as well as horse chestnut plus all the fruit blossom.Could be an excellant apple crop this year too.Managed to lose one swarm I think.Full of Q cells - no eggs and couldn't find her majesty.Knocked down all the cells except one with a nice fat larva,closed them up and let them get on with it.Cold wet weather meant I couldn't get into them when I needed to. No Q  cells in the other colonies tho'-all full of bees with side to side brood.High winds and cold wet weather not going to help with Q mating.

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## EmsE

It looks like our apiary visit could be cancelled on Sunday because of the weather :Frown:

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## gavin

I looked through the colony at the association apiary at lunchtime and did an artificial swarm on them as there were open queen cells with grubs.  Once they've developed further I'll probably split that box into 3-4 nuc boxes with mature queen cells for mating.  Although it was breezy the sun was out and it was warm enough.

Then at 6 tonight I tried going through my own.  Not a good idea.  They were more than a little feisty although I still came away with no stings.

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## Neils

I might get a pot or two of honey yet.

The swarm looks like it's going to be the colony to beat. Fabulous bees. I know they're only over 5 frames but in the context of Roger (Patterson)'s Queen workshop last weekend they're a no brainer. If I was an idiot I'd inspect without a suit let alone a smoker, if they live through winter they're everything I'd like to see from bees from a personal point of view. I 'd like to see some sign of VSH too, but maybe you can't have  everything.

The other two colonies are getting on. One now has a new queen that we marked today. The other doesn't. We ran a virgin queen in a few weeks back and she's obviously not worked  out. there are two fat queen cells on a donor frame from the swarm colony. If I'm honest I should combine this with one of the others, but another queen from that swarm is too good an opportunity to pass up.

The other colony also has a queen. This was the one that swarmed before I did the first inspection.  We couldn't find her, but they're still mean and I'm glad they're not on the allotment. If things were slightly different I'd requeen this hive tomorrow.

I took my mentee around again today and thankfully this time we got to do some "standard" beekeeping compared to last time. Fair play to her, I've not managed to put her off yet and after 3 swarms collected so far we've promised her the next one.  

All things considered it's capped off a good week. I'm not going to get to get much honey this year but I've learned a huge amount.

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## Jimbo

With all the recent bee thefts its good to know my bees are in good hands and being protected 24hr a day. I thought I would go up early this morning (8.00am) to stick a sugar bag on a 5 frame nuc I made up this week as I was worried that the nuc would starve with all this recent bad weather. The job only took a few minutes but just as I closed up the nuc I was met by a very large dog and two MOD police handlers. Having an apairy located on MOD property does have it's advantages

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## Trog

What?  More bee thefts?  Apart from Dundee, where else?

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## gavin

Wales and Hampshire most recently I believe.  Two summers back, 11 hives in West Lothian belonging to a local commercial beekeeper.

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## Calum

Just reached the highpoint of my aparist adventures so far. 3 of my colonies have been selected to be part of the 8 that will supply the regions (West Allgäu) mating site with drones. 
The regular breeders had very high losses so they cast about for good alternatives.
The guy from the agricultural ministry gave me a rating of 3.5 (agressive) 3 (steadfast) and 3.5 (broodfill) at an open stand bad weather. Scale was 4 good-1 bad. I had nothing to do good bees though... selling colonies at a premium price will be much easier though.

downside two of my 2011 colonies swarmed yesterday afternoon (three swarms). I only caught 2 of them. 
such is life.

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## EmsE

I'm moving my hives to a new apiary site and thought that it would be a good idea to do one of them last night at 6.30 as it was raining.....as it had been all day :Frown: . I was really surprised when, after sealing the entrance up, some bees began to return to the hive to find they couldn't get in. It wasn't due to any escaping as I filled the entrance with foam as I managed that before they realize. Needless to say they weren't happy to find their home being carried away. Points to note: A small number of bees still venture out in the rain :Confused:  & they can sting through denim.

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## gavin

Ahh ... one of the down-sides of having Amm, that they forage in typical Scottish weather (not that they sting through denim!).

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## gavin

> The guy from the agricultural ministry gave me a rating of 3.5 (agressive) 3 (steadfast) ......


I wonder how the guys from our ministry would rate me?!   :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously though, well done.  This illustrates very well the differing attitudes to beekeeping in different EU member states.  It would be wonderful if our officials got involved with breeding and selection.  As it is, that is down to a small number of enthusiasts, most of whom are too busy on other things to spend the time required to get it right.

----------


## gavin

> I'm moving my hives to a new apiary site  ....


Trouble?  Looking ahead?  Most of us must start with the bees in the garden then graduate to keeping them where they will not annoy the family or the neighbours.  My neighbours are never out of their garden in the summer months, save for a couple of hours on Sunday morning, so stress-free beekeeping was getting hard.

And my news of the day?  Stopped off at the association apiary on the way home to spend an hour and a half painting some more polystyrene boxes, nucs and full Nationals.  Having bought some Denrosa/Swienty poly Nationals at the weekend I tried assembling a brood box.  Heaven!  You just push the sides together and knock them into place with the heel of your hand.  The painting may take a while but the assembly is trivial.

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## EmsE

> ...  Having bought some Denrosa/Swienty poly Nationals at the weekend I tried assembling a brood box.  Heaven!  You just push the sides together and knock them into place with the heel of your hand.  The painting may take a while but the assembly is trivial.


 Wow, that sounds like my kind of self-assembly hive. Are they compatible to mix with the wooden boxes?

Reason for the move? Neighbours & space really. I need to be able to visit the bees whenever it suits me, trying to juggle work, kids, weather & husbands fishing is quite difficult, so now they're going to the middle of nowhere it should hopefully be less of a worry. Also, where I was before didn't have the scope for me to build the number of colonies. Sad to go though.

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## GRIZZLY

What colour are you painting them Gavin ??.Mine are a nice shade of green which blends nicely in with the garden.The assembly of mine take a little longer as you have to add top and bottom reinforceing strips but, like yous they simply push together-add glue if you must but not really neccessary.Going to house some neucs into a couple more tomorrow.

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## gavin

Fishing, did you say fishing?!!  Ahh (wistful look as I haven't been out enough this year ...).

As far as I can tell the outside dimensions are the same as a cedar National but I'll check when I'm next there.  I've been told that you can park wooden wire excluders (you know what I mean), supers and the like on top.  The walls are thick so you can only get 10 frames in a box.

I should really post some pictures, so look out for that ESBA Apiarist fellow's blog.

The real reason for going poly was the stark difference in survival in the 2009-2010 winter of colonies in wood and colonies in polystyrene.  However, the low cost, the lighter weight (for lugging to the heather) and the ease of assembly are all plusses too.

Getting the bees away from people who may get stung changes your beekeeping.  I'm more relaxed now.  And the woodpeckers (greater spotted and green), treecreepers, buzzards, roe deer and more just add to the pleasure.

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## gavin

Murray suggested painting the rims with polyurethane varnish (hardens them for protection from hive tools and stops bees chewing them) so that is one more thing to do.  I'm using B&Q acrylic exterior masonary paint in two shades, a sandy one and a pale grey one.  I'll post pictures another day.

Also have Paynes 6-frame nuc boxes and they are also getting the same paint. Nuc boxes and full poly Nationals are having their feeders painted internally with sand-laced paint to protect the polystyrene from mould and to make the surface rough for the bees to climb out.

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## Calum

> I wonder how the guys from our ministry would rate me?!  
> 
> Seriously though, well done.  This illustrates very well the differing attitudes to beekeeping in different EU member states.  It would be wonderful if our officials got involved with breeding and selection.  As it is, that is down to a small number of enthusiasts, most of whom are too busy on other things to spend the time required to get it right.


Well the guy is one of 4 or 5 full time state employees that is only concerned with bees for our region.
they run training courses in the two beekeeper schools in Bavaria and come to clubs to give courses (next one I'll attend is queen breeding -for the third time but it is THAT good). He says breeding clement bees is doable in 4 generations if you start with 5 colonies. The rate of improvement  (regardless of charecteristic) is always diminishing as the generations progress as delta from the potentioal optimum is getting smaller. 
So if your bees are clement healthy and bringing in plenty of honey dont worry about it too much. 

Germany does not support beekeepers as much for the sake of the aparists or bees but for the job bees do for agriculture and nature. They appreciate that the honey bee can no longer survive in the wild in the numbers required to satisfy agriculture and natures needs, thus the need for plenty of good quality beekeepers.
I think it is called joined up thinking in the uk...

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## EmsE

Yesterday I went to prepare the last hive that needs to be moved. It needed reducing down to a single brood which I managed only just- and that was because I'd taken 4 frames out to produce a nuc about 10 days earlier. Of course as I'm trying to do this, it keeps trying to rain but the job had to be done before the schools finished.

The hive was all ready to go when we went down to collect it late last night, however despite the very cold wind there was no threat of rain. After successfully blocking the entrance  my husband lifted the hive off the stand it was on to place on the hive carrier but he caught the floor board which swiveled enough to let a lot of highly irritated bees come flooding out. We managed to get everything back into place, but not before they discovered how to find their way down my wellies!! We decided that it would be best not to continue in our efforts that night and will try again on Saturday when thy've hopefully forgiven us. 
How long do bees hold a grudge for?

Just found out I've passed my Module 1  :Big Grin:

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## gavin

Ah the joys of moving bees! 

After several difficult flits to the heather I discovered ratchet straps (and within about 4 years of that worked out how to use them properly!).

They forgive you by lunchtime the next day, but don't do it on a regular basis or they'll get the message.

Well done on passing module 1.  You're now well ahead of me in formal beekeeping qualifications.

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## Neils

Grats on the module 1 Emse!

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## gavin

What to do today?  Visit Thornes for the last of the big order for the association apiary before it shuts at 12?  Go straight to my apiary without passing Go or Collecting £200 to get on with my first attempt at filling Apideas?  I was going to use some of my bees to fill 4 for spare Q cells of a good strain at the association apiary.  Planning to demonstrate queen-raising at the next association summer meeting in mid June, so I'd best try it out.

There is a huge rain cloud over N Ireland and the west of Scotland with our name on it though, and tomorrow looks very chilly and showery.  Best get on with all of it then ...

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## Trog

It's a bit more than a huge rain cloud, Gavin!  Chucking it down, windy and cold.  Rather glad I'm not camping at Scone this evening!

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## Jimbo

Enough of the rain! Does Thorne's sell waterproof beesuits?

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## Trog

Phew!  Get hot enough doing inspections in a standard bee jacket and boiler suit without adding waterproof to the mix!  Bees were out on cotoneaster yesterday, near enough to dash home during the frequent downpours, but have they brought in enough to ward off starvation?  They were OK when we last looked, a few days ago, but they built up so fast in April, ready for the apple blossom (which was mostly wasted in the rain), that I'm a little anxious about them.

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## EmsE

Well that big grey cloud has been raining heavily on us since 11am today. We went out  to move the last hive to it's new site. This time it went without a hitch but got soaked to the bone in the process- the bees were still insisting on flying but thankfully not down my wellies. At the next inspection (if the big grey cloud decides to move) I'll be taking some frames full of stores down with me just in case. 

The wind has really picked up here in the past hour- certainly stronger than that forecast, which I'm hoping won't be a problem.

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## gavin

Ya big softie Jimbo!  Like Ems and Trog I was out beekeeping in the rain.  The beekeeping I did today was rather more than I usually do, with just a soggy jacket and veil.  It was interesting seeing the reaction of different colonies to having the lid popped - one I knew was tetchy was positively vicious, though starting with heavy bombardment on the hands then bees in the face before offering the odd sting.  They followed me for ages afterwards, and despite their Amm look they will be getting requeened when I can.  A small overwinter survivor (Italian-looking) is building up now (5-frames) and went straight for me when I lifted the lid, no pussy-footing about with the thumping on the hands of the dark bees that warn me off.  Another candidate for requeening.  On the other hand the dark bees at the association apiary were fairly tolerant of being search for ripe queen cells.

I filled 4 Apideas today for the apiary (first-time experiment) and gave them queen cells from that nice colony.  Both of my double-brood colonies had queen cells.  One is now split into a bottom box with the queen and no queen cells, super, and a top box with vertical dividers and a special floor to make three compartments, each with queen cells.  There may be a blog later.  The other was split in the standard artificial swarm manner with the old queen on the old site with the flying bees in a spare box.  Tomorrow I will deal with the queenless double brood with queen cells.  I like the colony so may split it into a few nucs.

So much more fun than sitting in a room all day going through SBA Executive business.

G.

Forgot to say that in the space of a week all three of my bigger colonies have gone over to queen cell raising, just about on cue for a third week in May swarm (but I've thwarted that now  :Smile: ).  I knew before I arrived at the apiary.  I stopped for a chat with the nearest neighbour and he told me that they had two honeybees die on their kitchen window-sill during the last few days, a sure sign of bees house-hunting.

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## Trog

Sorry to disappoint you but I wasn't beekeeping today.  I try and avoid opening them up in the rain, though quite a few were flying, despite the rain.  I think the reaction of your two colonies was perfectly reasonable; there was thunder forecast for here and no doubt a feel of it around even in Perth.  How do they behave on a lovely sunny day?

Tomorrow's task for me will be to batten down the hives - a double-brick storm is forecast for Monday  :Frown:

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## Jon

> a double-brick storm is forecast for Monday


...and Monday is the night out queen rearing group meets. That will be 3 Mondays in a row we have been confined indoors.
I think I will have to bring along the laptop and the scanner and run through some of the steps in Morphometry as there will be no chance of getting outdoors.

I have 11 Apideas set out, each one with a virgin queen so I will have to put a brick on top of each one.






> Forgot to say that in the space of a week all three of my bigger colonies have gone over to queen cell raising,


Perfect opportunity for grafting 60 cells.
I remove the queen with a couple of frames to a nuc, wait 6 days, remove all cells and then introduce a frame of grafts from the best queen available.
I did this last Tuesday and got 21 cells started which will be going into Apideas of association members next Saturday.

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## Jimbo

The rain was so heavy I thought it might have been the end of the world like that American preacher was predicting. Anyway still here and the weather is improving today so the plan is to get the hives opened up

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## Trog

I think it was earthquakes rather than rain predicted.  I thought earlier this morning that it might be a good day for checking colonies (though the only reason would be to check level of stores this time) ... until the downpour 15 minutes ago!  Hope the cotoneaster bees made it back/took shelter in time.  Sort of smash-and-grab foraging they're doing at the moment, but all credit to them, they're flying in almost anything!

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## gavin

Smash and grab foraging - like it!  Bees seem to watch the clouds.  You can see them scurrying home when there is a big cloud coming.  Often I see the rush of bees at the entrance before I notice the cloud coming.

That's two great phrases in 24 hours.  A two-brick storm!

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## Trog

The latter owes not a little to Sherlock Holmes, both the old version, where I gather there was such a thing as a two-pipe problem, and the new BBC one, 'a two-patch problem'.

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## Neils

Weather not great here today, no rain, but lots of wind so I only had a look at two colonies that I wanted a better I idea of what they're up to.

The swarm is progressing nicely, now covering 5 frames of brood. I had to swap the brood box out as the Thornes second I bought over winter turned out to be too narrow at one end. The frames fit, just, but then they're wedged tight.

They'd be doing better but I nicked two frames of brood to go into the other hives.

As I suspected might happen, it looks like the queen in the supersedure hive is going to be superseded again, there was a queen cell in place. but she's still there and laying so I've removed it for now to buy some time while the swarm expands a bit more, then I'll look to try and requeen her. As this colony is only across three frames I've also transferred them into one of my lovely new Nucs to hopefully make life a little bit easier for them rather than them rattling around in a big 14x12 brood box. That and I also just wanted to try out one of the Nuc Boxes.

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## gavin

Were they the 6-frame polystyrene ones from Paynes?  I was hoping to fill 4 today with 2-3 frames of bees with Q cells at the association apiary (propagating a strain I rather like), but by the time I got to them the wind was howling and my thighs peppered with stings from a re-visit to the ones I split yesterday.  Despite previous assurances that bees will forgive you by lunchtime the next next day, these ones clearly have revenge on their minds for rather longer than that.

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## Neils

Nope these were wood ones made by Tom Bick (not sure he's wound his way to this neck of the woods).

They're a thing of beauty, almost a shame to put bees in them to be honest:


Forgot to put the entrance blocks in for the photo but hey ho.

No stings at least, I didn't go near the "grumpy" hive for that very reason. It's also got two supers and bags of room for brood now there's a laying queen in it so opening them up wouldn't really tell me anything I don't already know.

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## GRIZZLY

43 mph winds here today with gusts up to 70mph.Bees realy struggling to return to the hives having been lured out by the bright sunshine.Lots of damage to trees with whole shoots and leaves being stripped off.To be even worse later on in the week with even higher windspeeds.I wonder how many bees will be left in the hives  when this little lot calms down.I need to get into the hives but dared'nt in these winds.Fortunately they've got plenty of food with the early honey flow - don't think there will be much left for me tho' ( heavy sigh).

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## Trog

Storm 10  here.  Lost a birdbox with three great tits about a week away from fledging  :Frown:   Just crashed out of the tree.  Parents still OK so may have time to find a new home and start again.  Beehives still in one piece when I checked this afternoon but WBC bait hive in several bits!  National Geographic Explorer cruise liner taking shelter - can't blame them!  Sometimes I wonder if we really do want a boat .... would not have liked to be at anchor in this!

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## EmsE

I'm just back from work and haven't seen so many trees & part trees blown over before. I put an extra brick on top of each hive yesterday but am wondering if I'd need to go down with some more. I think I'll need to go down anyway to put my mind at rest. Am i being too much of a worrier?

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## gavin

A wee bit of worrying doesn't do anyone any harm.  I went to see mine on the way home, after picking my way through fallen branches and trees.  The house nearest to my apiary had the top of an oak tree (a large and heavy piece) fall and hit its side (no structural damage I think) and demolish a wooded fence.  Had to stop and heave a big larch branch out of the way to get there.

Jon knows of a cedar hive with two supers on its side this afternoon, and I saw a hive at an apiary near mine at a funny angle on the way home ... so a visit is well worth it I think.  Colonies will recover from being tipped over but the sooner the better.

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## EmsE

Thankfully my hives are still vertical and I've added another brick to each. I'm really glad I didn't move my hives to where they were originally going to go as a great big tree has fallen over. Thankfully no trees to climb over, but the bottom field I need to walk through to get to my bees is flooded and discovered that there's a hole in my wellie somewhere- what an excuse to get some more :Big Grin: . My bees are a good 8 feet or so above this so they'll be ok

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## Jon

Our queen rearing group met earlier this evening and we found two colonies blown over at a neighbouring apiary.
My correx nuc with half a breeze block on top was fine.
8 stalwarts turned up for the Morphometry demonstration.
there were fallen branches everywhere.

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## Beejud

I haven't seen winds as strong as this for a long time. Half a tree in the chicken run, no chicken casualties thankfully but branches and debris everywhere. I went down to my bees about 9.15 when the wind dropped enough to be able to stand upright and was met with carnage in the apiary. I followed trogs warnings and added extra boulders on the roof of each hive this morning. Hive 5 was artificially swarmed a few days ago and so was top heavy ie new brood box plus two supers plus old brood box ( now a nuc) plus super for feeder. I guess I should have realised it would be vulnerable in these winds but it has crashed over and taken hive 6 which was a double brood hive with it. My son helped me piece them all back together. There were bees everywhere and not showing much appreciation for our efforts. I was covered with bees at the end of it and feeling pretty depressed about it all. My queen cells in the nuc will be gonners now and who knows if the original queens have survived or are even in the correct box. You nurse them through the winter for something like this to happen. Will just have to leave them to settle and see what can be rescued from it all tomorrow.

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## gavin

Sorry to learn about your problems.  Hopefully you will find things not so bad when you can have a good look in the morning.

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## Trog

Sorry to hear about this Beejud.  What a wild day it was. Glad your chooks are OK.

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## Neils

Ouch! We missed it here, been a bit blowy and wet but nothing too serious.

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## Trog

Just been round the hives and hefted the supers.  Empty,  having been half full only a week ago, and I know the brood boxes were mostly full of brood, not stores.  On my way down to the 'Co' to get some incredibly expensive sugar.  One huge colony has chucked out some 50 drone brood; probably uncapping and evicting more even now.  I've never seen the like at this time of year  :Frown:

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## Beejud

Well how lucky am I? Had a look at the patched up hives in between the showers and gusts today. Found both the marked queens in the correct brood chambers and the queen cells I was sure would have been squashed look intact so despite severe headaches all round they may be ok! What resilient insects bees are, despite the best efforts of the weather and their 'keeper'. Only time will tell but what a relief. About half of my hives are pretty light in stores now after this bad spell so I think I will need to plan ahead for the June gap. Do you think with the way the weather has been going it will arrive earlier too? Any weight I was feeling in supers has gone so no spring honey for me. I cant say I noticed any drones being chucked out but then my mind was on other things.

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## EmsE

That'll be such a relief for you Beejud, fingers crossed for your Queen cells.

I'm going armed with combs of stores tomorrow and will make some syrup too to help them along.

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## Jimbo

Checked all my colonies today to check for storm damage and found everything OK. Some of the colonies were a bit light in stores so stuck some sugar syrup on.

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## GRIZZLY

Things going from bad to worse.Went to inspect the bees yesterday-the first day following the extreme weather.The blighters decided to swarm and ended up inside my greenhouse firmly attached to a shelf and its contents.They were followed immediately by a quite large cast which ended up on the end of the roof of the same greenhouse.Has anyone tried to extricate bees from such places.I couldn't shake the bees down and there wasn't room to place a box over the bees.I ended up brushing the bees little by little into a box,then moving them outside where I threw them into another box propped up to make a bottom entrance.Further brushings were taken outside and thrown onto the ground in front of the second box where the bees were fanning furiously.After about 1/2 an hour I managed to transfer the majority of the swarm outside.There were quite a few loose bees inside still and I had to wait for them to cluster to capture them and make the transfer outside.
The second lot that had perched on the roof were even more difficult to capture as they had spread themselves over a fairly large surface area.I again resorted to brushing them up into a second box again placed on to the floor with a propped entrance.This took several attempts as the bees objected strongly and did a lot of flying around.I managed to box most of them and left everything to settle down before hiving them.To say the bees were upset is a bit of an understatement - they became very agressive and I got a few pricks for my troubles.Anyway no harm done and the stings have worked wonders for the rheumatism I get in a wrist I broke a few years back.Hey-ho now got to find a site for the little blighters.
Just goes to show what impossible beekeeping weather can lead to.

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## Calum

hi grizzly,
I find spraying them with copious amounts of water from a plant sprayer makes the job much easier.
They really clump well together and hardly as many fly up at all.

had a queen raising course yesterday, after chatting with the main beekeeping specialist for the Bavarian forestry and agriculture department he said he could be enticed to scotland to give a course or to if the participants can put up with his poor english....

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## GRIZZLY

Hi Calum ,I couldn't spray the cluster as it had engulfed a full carton of sulphate of ammonia I had ready for the cabbages.I had to resort to dry brushing instead.Good fun and all in a days beekeeping.Anyway they are now safely housed and takind down Ambrosia by the litre.Weather still cold,wet and very windy with the wind backing round to the north west.I've got to get everything into some sort of order as the beginners are coming for a demonstration the weekend after next.

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## Calum

Hi grizzly, 
the other option would have been to delve in with your hands and fish out the queen.
Where she leads....

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## Neils

Calum,

Heard of that before but always qualified by &quot;...marked queen...&quot;.

If the queen isn't marked or plainly visible is there a particular location within a swarm where shes likely to be? Ie if it were me I'd probably want to keep her safe in the middle but bees regularly ignore what I think would be a sensible thing to do.

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## Calum

Nellie, good point... 
They can be enticed straight into a brood box with a frame of food and young (hungry) brood if they are inclined..

I passed up a swarm today- running out of places to put them and things to put them in (using fruit crates with cardoard inserts now). And I need to remove frames from my first 2011 colonies again tomorrow not to mention my main colonies.
I really do not want more than 30 colonies but things are going that way. -still only may!

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## Beejud

In to examine my bees today, the first nice day for a while. They had appeared to have put the swarm urge on hold with the bad weather but it's all change again. Eggs appearing in queen cups and one of my artificial swarms appears not to have worked as I found a huge sealed cell in with the queen. Surprised she was still there actually Has the June gap arrived yet do you think? Some of them are short of stores and I am feeding but there was a fine array of all colours of pollen coming into all the hives today so I'm not sure what to think. The temperatures seem to be on the rise now too thankfully

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## Trog

I put a second, much needed, feed on two days ago and although they were flying today I didn't feel the weather was good enough for an inspection, though it's 14 days since I was last into the hives.  It was only just ten degrees and there was a cold wind.  I've put out a box in the hope of catching any swarm and am checking the apiary area several times a day.  I suspect that since they chucked out drones last week a swarm isn't top of their agenda right now.

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## GRIZZLY

Had a second swarm yesterday.I've given up trying to stop them and am relying on finding and capturing the swarms instead.The weather has been so cold and WINDY that I think I would have done more damage trying to A.S. them rather than letting them be.The second swarm erupted just as I was standing by the hive dringing a cup o' tea,flew into the top of a nearby shrub and were caught and boxed before my tea got cold.They were hived that evening on to clean wax foundation and immediately set about emptying a rapid feeder of Ambrosia feed.My plan to take splits from the colonies has been achieved "natures way"-so this year a mixture of "managed" and "leave alone" beekeeping - not exactly to plan but satisfactory never the less.

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## Beejud

This is where I find the general chat so useful. I see what other people have been doing and think more about my own actions with the bees. The AS was done on the last good day but perhaps it wasn't warm enough for that procedure. Now I think about it the reason the queen was still there with the sealed queen cell is because until yesterday the weather had been awful. It is also the hive that crashed over in the winds last week so I probably didn't examine the box thoroughly enough last week. I was just relieved to see her in there alive so not looking for queen cells. They have not drawn out the foundation at all well, possibly because they are intent on getting rid of her. She is older now and maybe the hit on the head was the final straw. I did the text book AS and put the supers on top but maybe syrup would be better. So many "maybe ifs"!

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## Trog

I quite agree, grizzly.  Sometimes it does more harm to follow the textbook and open hives regardless than to give the bees a break.  The bees would be out of their tiny minds to swarm in this weather so I'm hoping common sense is prevailing in the colonies!

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## gavin

Well, last Friday I found one colony with advanced queen cells and split it in a standard artificial swarm.  Today I looked at one I'd already split (it was a powerful double brood colony) and raised three nucs from a couple of weeks ago, plus shook some bees into Apideas.  It has filled its brood box once again, building up from one frame with the old queen and the flying bees.  Not only that but today again it had sealed queen cells.  I took the old queen out into a nuc box to buy me time with that one.  A third colony which was also split from a double brood into five nucs was also raising queen cells again in the the queen-right part.  That one had its queen cells removed.

Three colonies sitting there with their old queens and sealed queen cells, ready to swarm off into the distance if I hadn't intervened.  I'm surprised they didn't go yesterday, but maybe they are waiting for the even warmer weather tomorrow.

I suppose that our weather in the E has been a little kinder, but the conditions have still been pretty poor and inspections have not been kind to bees or beekeeper.  I'm glad that I've kept at it though.

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## Jimbo

Things are starting to look up in the wet and windy West. The colonies are starting to get stronger although will still need to check the stores as some are a bit light. Started my queen breeding using the Cupkit system. The Queen has laid up the eggs in the cups so need to wait 3 days to get the 1 day old larvae then moved over a queenless cell builder colony. I will just raise 10 queen cells although the system allows you to produce up to 100 cells at a time. If only I had enough colonies and apidea's

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## kevboab

Today !!! Well started by removing a frame of eggs for a friend who is queenless. Removed feeders after bad weather and popped supers back on. First two a doddle, last one the bees poured out every one on a suicide mission to take me down the minute cover was removed. Super thrown on, closed up and had followers for next 20 mins. Will need to fish out the suit of armour for weekend and see exactly whats going on. To be honest can see her ladyship getting the chop. Definately not a colony for the garden.

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## Beejud

I have one like that! Do Thornes stock Kevlar suits?

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## Trog

Well, today was glorious and the junior beekeeper and I opened the first hive with a small 'courtesy' puff of smoke at the entrance.  Halfway through I glanced sideways into the grassy bit beside the apiary and noticed a swarm on the move.  'Follow that swarm,' said I to junior beekeeper, and returned to inspecting the colony, putting it back together and writing up my notes before I forgot what I'd seen.  The swarm had obligingly settled in a low hawthorn bush so with a wee bit of pruning of lower branches and a sharp tug they were quickly boxed (don't have a skep but a cardboard box does the job just fine), the box inverted on a board with a brick at one end to provide an entrance, and the bees fanning furiously to call the others in.  Meanwhile we went back to the inspections wondering which lot had swarmed.  Each time we confidently said 'maybe this one', right to the end - the big lot on double brood plus a super.  But no, all had eggs apart from the supersedure colony whose queen was almost certainly out on her mating flight, and no sign of queen cells, sealed, hatched or anything and it was too soon for any to have been taken down.  All will doubtless become clear next week but it was a delightful inspection with the smoker only needed to clear bees down to stop them being squashed while putting things back together.  Bucket loads of pollen going in and all the bees in cheerful mood - not even the offer of a sting; in fact they largely ignored us and carried on with their lives as if we weren't taking their home apart.  Lovely!  (And I even managed a couple of hours fishing afterwards!)  :Big Grin:

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## kevboab

> I have one like that! Do Thornes stock Kevlar suits?


If only !!  Not looking forward to the weekend as much now.

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## GRIZZLY

Will have a thorough overhaul of my bees on Sunday when we're having a beginners meeting in my apiary.Should be plenty to interest them - 2 swarms and two neucs to check for progress,2 swarmed hives to check for newly mated young queens(hopefully) and the other 6 hives for their routine weekly checkover.Thank goodness the gales of the past few weeks seem to be over and my beekeeping can get back on to a more normal footing.
All my colonies have been exceptionally strong this year and crowded with bees.The early flow has kept them well fed but there will be no surplus for me.I just hope we get a good summer flow and perhaps a bit of honey later.

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## EmsE

Finally got an opportunity to have a proper look in the hives instead of a 'quick peek' to add a frame of stores. The 5 frame nuc looks to have successfully hatched a queen- I'll leave this one alone for the next couple of weeks but good to see the bees bringing nectar in. In the queen cell part of an artificial swarm, all the brood has hatched and there are lots of Queen cells being ripped down but I couldn't find one that looked as though it had hatched. I'm hoping that is down to the bees tidying up but both were very good natured.

My 2 established colonies are puzzling me. One I did the AS leaving just a couple of frames of brood, a couple of stores & the rest wired frames at the beginning of May. There are a few QC's in there both sealed and unsealed. I think I'm going to risk it being supercedure. If it's not I could find myself chasing my first swarm.

The other, which I removed 3 frames of brood with QC's for a 5 frame nuc is producing QC's again. None have been sealed yet but are distributed over 2 frames. Would an artificial swarm be the best bet? I'm just conscious of the June gap being just round the corner.

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## Beejud

Emse, in the hive where you did the AS, did you see your marked queen still there? If not then she may already have gone in which case your decision to leave the cells would seem the sensible one. The other hive sounds like it is doing what mine have been doing ie. cancelling any swarm thoughts during this bad spell of weather but now things have improved it's game on! I suspect if it was me I would be AS'ing but I would see what some of the more experienced forum members say about it as you have already reduced the colony size. I think the June gap is upon us more or less. There was less pollen coming in today compared with the previous few days and you are not far from me. I have a queen just hatched in a nuc so not sure how it will fare in the next couple of weeks. I understood the success or otherwise of mating is more to do with the weather than the lack of forage, assuming the colony has adequate stores.

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## EmsE

Hi Beejud, the hive I did the AS last time still has it's marked Queen (well it did last night anyway- today could be another matter). The other, I'll go with you on that & do an AS and make sure I feed well. I just hope they wait for me to get down there later today.

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## GRIZZLY

Todays visit by our ass'n beekeepers a success despite the weather which was on and off very light rain and cold wind.Both new neucs have nearly drawn their new foundation right across.Both Queens spotted.Both swarms drawn nice fresh comb.Queens seen and eggs spotted in cells.Decided to delay inspection of parent colonies to give new Queens a good chance of successful matings.Other colonies o.k. except for one which had superceedure cells-quick look then closed up to allow Q to emerge,mate then take over colony.
Bees were well behaved quiet and not at all aggressive - no bees were flying at the start of the mornings inspections and general flying has only just begun  (5.0 pm) .A pleasant surprise was the amount of honey on each hive - two full supers with lots of stores in the brood boxes.They all need an extra super for room as much as anything.I have never seen them so strong.The bad weather of the past weeks doesn't seem to have affected them one bit.Lets hope we have a good main flow.
I treated all hives with "Varroa Gard" in their entrances today so will be interested to see if the mite population can be kept to an insignificant level before the autumn.

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## Trog

There were scouting bees all over the house today from early morning onwards.  As ours didn't seem to be making swarming preparations when checked a couple of days ago, they must be from a neighbouring apiary or ferals.  I now have three bait hives out, so here's hoping!

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## kevboab

The plan is to raise queens using Hopkins method. So i bought a frame trap, popped her majesty (aka Houdini ) onto a freshly drawn frame to lay in and left for three days. 

Went in today whilst sun was shining to remove her and lo and behold not an egg in site on frame within trap and Houdini had succeeded not to follow the instructions as per the manual. Found her 4 frames away grinning like a cheshire cat at me. 

Only im not laughing, closed up, took frame trap away for some quick modifications and returned on a mission. Ha ha, get out now ya wee bugger. 

Back in 3 days for the results !

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## EmsE

There was a brief spell with no rain today, the first that theres been since Friday where I haven't been working / looking after the kids. I took things to do an AS on one of my colonies and a box just in case. On one of the bushes hiding my apiary there was, hanging on a branch, a swarm of bees- my first one. Whilst I was disappointed in myself for letting it happen, it was great fun trying to get them re-homed, it was just a shame that I had to use the 'quick' method of getting them into the new hive due to the approaching rain. I was kicking myself for forgetting my phone so I couldn't get a picture.

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## Beejud

Spot of good luck that you were in the right place at the right time and with a box too! I am surprised they chose today. The weather has been just rubbish and some very heavy showers. Just goes to show, the swarm urge is very strong and it's sometimes tricky trying to anticipate when they'll go.

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## Adam

Another 4 queens are now laying. It always makes me smile to see eggs and small larvae in a new queens comb.
The queen from a gentle colony from a friends swarm hasn't mated and that's the one I really wanted!
So it goes with bees!

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## Jon

Hi Adam
I found eggs in another two apideas today as well.
That's ten so far and I have another 6 of my own still with virgins and six belonging to members of the queen rearing group.

I printed off some of your apidea record sheets and have them under the lids.
Just the ticket, thanks.

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## EmsE

> Spot of good luck that you were in the right place at the right time and with a box too! I am surprised they chose today. The weather has been just rubbish and some very heavy showers. Just goes to show, the swarm urge is very strong and it's sometimes tricky trying to anticipate when they'll go.


It's been a very mixed week so far. I came home from work on the Tuesday and wondered why the drive was white- we'd had lots of hail! 

The elder flower is coming out now- looking beautiful. I'm planning on having a wonder round at the weekend to find out what plants are nearby. I've seen a few already that I don't recognize so will definitely need a camera so that I can identify them.

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## GRIZZLY

I am going to hive the last two neucs today.They've been sitting on top of their new homes for the last couple of days for orientation flights.This will bring my strength back up to ten colonies.I've finaly tracked down the source of the cream coloured pollen to the "wild" fuscia prevalent in the district.Pollen continues to be brought in to all colonies in great quantity.I just hope they have good nectar sources as well.The weather continues mixed with warm/cold spells and quite windy.Perhaps summer will come next week!!.

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## Jon

Did 3 hours work with the bees before the rain came on at lunchtime.
-two colony inspections
-rearranged the frames from top to bottom box in one of my queen rearing colonies
-grafted a frame of larvae for this colony
-moved a 7 frame nuc to a full brood box. (cranky, marked for requeening)
-put roller cages on 30 queen cells due to hatch on Wednesday
-gave a couple of pints of 1:1 syrup to the two queen rearing colonies
-checked the feeders of a few apideas.

None of my colonies are making queen cells yet, touch wood and I have 9 at full strength.
A lot of mouths to feed in this sort of weather. We have had about 4 decent days in the past 5 weeks.

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## GRIZZLY

Swarm No3 yesterday afternoon-the very black bees.Left the hive ,settled nicely on a low bush and were one of the easiest I've ever had to catch.All in the box and tucked away nicely by 3 o'clock - then fed and allowed to settle down.Now used up all my national equipment so will have to revert to the 16x10's abandoned the year before.I'm going to have to make a load more crown/clearer boards and hive floors (varroa type).Good opportunity to treat for Varroa with O.A before theres any brood to hide the mites.I don't mind swarms this year as the colonies have been so strong and have built up so fast they have recovered their numbers quickly-still full of slabs of brood to supply nice young bees for the main flow -  if the weather ever lets us have a summer.

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## GRIZZLY

Association outing to John Mellis today to watch how the pros deal with swarming on a commercial scale.Hope the weather improves as my bees have been either shivvering at home or shower dodgeing.Still plenty of pollen being brought in and the bees are in particularly friendly mode.I proved this the other day by forgetting to put on my veil and doing a full inspection,only realising the fact when I was going thro' the last colony.Senior moment perhaps?.Anyway nice bees.

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## Trog

Ha ha!  Definitely lovely friendly bees.  I remember an elderly Polish chap who spent every day with his bees with no veil or anything.  His smoker was a bunch of rags in a baked bean tin and his hives were a very raggedy collection of stuff.  Given that the bees of the area could be stroppy, his bees must have been gentle because of the way he handled them.

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## Neils

Hived a whopping great big swarm today that had conveniently settled up a couple of yards away from the hive it emerged from.  Hived it into a topbar hive and ended up trying to balance keeping the space small enough while they get some comb drawn and needing to give them near enough 7 frames of space just to be able to physcially accomodate them in the hive.

My own are still chugging along. i think the nature reserve bees are getting ready to try and swarm again but I  was already suspecting that they might have a good dose of Carnolian going through them.

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## GRIZZLY

This must be the"year of the swarm"-my bees are producing queen cells just as fast as they can and with the alternating hot,cold and wet days making inspections difficult,the odd swarm emerges as soon as the sun comes out- usually just as I'm about to do an inspection.The main culprit tho' is the succession of strong and cold winds making chilled brood a distinct possibility if the bees are shook off the combs in the hunt for Q cells.Longer intervals between inspections due to inclement weather don't bode well for swarm control.

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## chris

It's not just beekeeper's bees.And not just Scotland with its special weather conditions. Where I live is pretty wild countryside, with no other beeks around. Any swarms i get are either feral, or descended from ancient 'kept' colonies. I've never seen so many as this year. Even the die hard ecologists are wondering what's going right.............

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## OXFORDBEE

Funny year this one. Bees are doing well but not interested in moving house. Broodnests are smaller than exected as the weather changes have meant queens being taken off lay when the weather is bad and then empty cells are filled with stores when the weather improves. Extracting deep frames and putting them back on has not helped. The queens ignore them and they get re-filled when the weather improves...

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## Trog

> This must be the"year of the swarm"-my bees are producing queen cells just as fast as they can and with the alternating hot,cold and wet days making inspections difficult,the odd swarm emerges as soon as the sun comes out- usually just as I'm about to do an inspection.The main culprit tho' is the succession of strong and cold winds making chilled brood a distinct possibility if the bees are shook off the combs in the hunt for Q cells.Longer intervals between inspections due to inclement weather don't bode well for swarm control.


That's always the problem here on Mull!  The last but one split I did resulted in some chilled brood because it took 3 of us 3 separate sessions to try and find the queen.  We never did in the end so bodged the split and hoped for the best.  A quick check last week revealed one virgin queen in one half of the split and a colony acting queenright in the other, so all may have gone well.

Because of the cold winds, I tend not to shake bees off combs unless it's vital.  I move them around the comb while looking for queen cells by blowing on them.  They seem to prefer that to being shaken!

Mating flights are another source of fun.  A supercedure queen didn't get out on orientation flights due to wind and rain so went for it on her first flight out and ended up in a hedge with a few bees.   She's now heading her own wee nuc and doing very well but her home colony have had to raise another.  I'll unite if the new queen's no good.

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## kevboab

Well, my first attempt at queen rearing over past couple of weeks using Hopkins method didn't exactly go to plan. Gained two nucs but whether they come to anything, well we shall wait and see. 
Plan B: spent a couple ae bob in buzzybee shop buying cups etc and grafting tool and made a frame to raise 20 queens in one sitting. So having never grafted in my life I transferred 20 larvae and upon a quick peek today it looks like at least 10 have been taken. 

I must say i've impressed myself and cant believe just how simple and effortless it has been compared to finding queen, trapping for x amount of days and all the other faff that went with Hopkins method and with a much higher success rate. 

Just gonna need some good weather and a spot of good luck that I can get them mated.

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## lindsay s

> Because of the cold winds, I tend not to shake bees off combs unless it's vital.  I move them around the comb while looking for queen cells by blowing on them.  They seem to prefer that to being shaken!


I do exactly the same Trog.
 Apart from last Monday cold northerly winds have been the main feature here this week. The temperature has never been above 14°c and the conditions have been bad for the bees and their keepers. I have 13 supers on my hives and Ill be lucky if they contain more than 30lbs of honey between the lot of them. Theres plenty of white clover out at the moment and if the weather improves I might get a small honey crop before the end of summer (wishful thinking).
Last Monday was sunny, cool and still (a rare occurrence up here) so my friend Graham and I managed to inspect my entire apiary. We made up 3 five-frame nucs each containing a few nearly sealed queen cells and moved them to another apiary. This should take some pressure of the parent colonies and hopefully Ill have new mated queens in a few weeks time if the weather is good. (The weather did I mention the weather I must stop going on about the weather) :Frown:  :Frown:  :Frown:

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## Jon

> So having never grafted in my life I transferred 20 larvae and upon a quick peek today it looks like at least 10 have been taken. 
> 
> I must say i've impressed myself and cant believe just how simple and effortless it has been compared to finding queen, trapping for x amount of days and all the other faff that went with Hopkins method and with a much higher success rate.


That's what I keep telling people. I don't know why more beekeepers do not bite the bullet and start a few cells. It puts you in control as you graft from your best colony whenever it suits you and you don't have to make up nucs with what ever queen cells happen to appear in one of your colonies.

 The grafting is straightforward but getting queens mated properly and getting them mated with the right type of drone is the real issue. That's where the apideas come into their own as you can bring your virgin queens to a mating apiary where they should encounter decent drones.

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## Neils

My swarm colony is definitely trying to supersede the queen so I've whipped her out into a Nuc. There's a flow on at the moment and they've filled a super in a week so I've slapped another on, I will get some honey this year!  It's not even July but the brambles are already coming to an end

I ran out of time so couldn't get to the colony on the nature reserve which I'm convinced is going to be trying to swarm again when I open it up next and typically, I've just found that I don't have enough spare frames. I bought a load in the thornes sale and it would be fair to say that the quality of a lot of them was so bad that I had to chuck them, so I thought I had plenty of spares, but I don't.

Best laid plans and all that  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Trog

> I do exactly the same Trog.
>  Apart from last Monday cold northerly winds have been the main feature here this week. The temperature has never been above 14°c and the conditions have been bad for the bees and their keepers. I have 13 supers on my hives and Ill be lucky if they contain more than 30lbs of honey between the lot of them. Theres plenty of white clover out at the moment and if the weather improves I might get a small honey crop before the end of summer (wishful thinking).
> Last Monday was sunny, cool and still (a rare occurrence up here) so my friend Graham and I managed to inspect my entire apiary. We made up 3 five-frame nucs each containing a few nearly sealed queen cells and moved them to another apiary. This should take some pressure of the parent colonies and hopefully Ill have new mated queens in a few weeks time if the weather is good. (The weather did I mention the weather I must stop going on about the weather)


Ah, yes, I have encountered the Orkney weather!  Do you have to cement the hives to something solid?   :Wink:  Still, you're doing better than I am if you have 13 supers on!  Weather-wise it's been low-lying cloud most of today and serious rain forecast for tomorrow,  Tuesday, Wednesday  ....  :EEK!:

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## kevboab

> That's where the apideas come into their own as you can bring your virgin queens to a mating apiary where they should encounter decent drones.


Just trying to keep it as simple as possible until I get a good grasp of things. One of our local beeks tried using apideas last year and certainly made it sound like it was a lot of faffing about with hit and miss results which has put me off the idea meantime. Sticking to making up decent sized nucs to see what kind of success i get. Original queen is my insurance if all fails, so nothing lost.

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## Trog

Today it is wet.  So wet there was a frog foraging on the terrace this morning.  15mm of rain since yesterday evening and it's still falling.  Streams running down the garden and puddles where the water can't run.  Yet the bees are out and about, even the 'less dark' ones.  Perhaps the escallonia is workable on the lee side or where it's flowering under leaf cover. Certainly the clover's no good in these conditions.  I wonder when summer will turn up?

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## Neils

26 degrees here today.  Having sorted out the allotment bees yesterday I took a peek at the ones on the nature reserve. there is definitely a flow on.  I thought these might be trying to swarm, but so far all looks ok. They are absolute buggers for propolis though, Maybe I can put up with them being rather mean (got stung again, cuff rode up and a guard bee got me a good un, I nearly dropped the frame it was that painful) if I can get honey and propolis off them.

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## Adam

I checked a couple of hives at my out apiary yesterday. One has a new queen; 6 frames of solid brood including one freshly laid with eggs and ... queencells.  :Frown:   Queen was still in there despite there being two sealed queencells. I took her out and dropped her in a polynuc with some bees and cut out the queencells leaving just one sealed one. I prised open the sealed queencells and both were dead. Now that's why they say to leave one open queencell with visible larva floating in royal jelly.


At 10 o'clock last night two of my 5 frame nucs (both with 5 frames of brood) were bearding out of the hives. It was still warm and humid and bees are gathering honey again by the bucket-full (Bramble I guess). A loud humming came from all the hives and bees were on the landing boards or outside most hives fanning air about to keep cool and evaporate the honey.
This morning I put the two nucs in bigger boxes. Both had pretty much 5 frames of sealed brood so there is now room for the queen to lay and bee numbers will increase dramatically soon. Cue smiley face  :Smile:

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## gavin

We also saw this business of a new queen with good slabs of brood going quickly to new queen cells at the association apiary at the weekend.  This was in a batch of queens with rather poor mating success generally.

I really should be feeding bees as the weather has been so poor here.  That heatwave passed us by completely, but at least we have the sun out today for a change.

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## Jimbo

I have been checking my nucs with this years new mated queens. All are producing nice brood patterns and so far all have 2-3 frames of brood. All have produced new queen cells at some point which I just keep cutting out. All have been fed throughout. 
I have never experienced new queens producing new queen cells before and on a regular basis. Usually you just leave them to get on with it building up for the winter.
After talking to some very experienced beekeepers in the west they are all experiencing the same problem. 
What is going on? Is it this poor weather pattern that has them confused? Is this an exeptional swarmy year?

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## GRIZZLY

I'm getting the problem of new queens laying a couple of frames of brood then suddenly lots of queen cells.Bees swarming at every chance.Definately a new pattern I haven't experienced before.I can only think it's the extremely changeable weather that we've been getting this year causing confusion in the bees and to the beekeeper.

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## gavin

This is something I haven't seen before either.  Are we now seeing the pattern that Roger Patterson has been talking about?  Why now?  Some possibilities to add to the changeable weather possibility (but if it is that, why is Jimbo seeing it with colonies being fed?).

1.  New pathogen causing it.  Nosema ceranae, or a virus, or something.  Spreading north.

2.  Pesticides.  Could it be an effect of neonicotinoids?  (I'm being serious folks, honest.)  We have OSR here and maybe John's bees have access too, but what about Rosneath bees?  Just natural forage for them?

3.  The hard winter.  The bees 'know' that there are likely to be empty nest sites out there and so they go over to a swarmy mode to take advantage?  Or they have kept a log of survey results over the last few years and reckon that heavy winter losses and so it is worth risking some extra swarms?

4.  Something to do with the solar sunspot cycle (again, seriously!).  Full of the joys of spring and glad to see some sunspots coming back?

5.  This has always happened from time to time and we are simply collectively becoming more observant beekeepers.

Take your pick.

G.

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## Neils

Not seeing that particular issue here. Two early queen failures aside, it's been pretty stable for the other colonies. The colony that swarmed in early April is currently covering 8 frames ofbrood and filling supers nicely.

The swarm has decided to supersede the queen but they had the decency to let her lay up 9 frames of brood first.

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## Jimbo

Gavin. I don't think it is option 1. I treated for Nosema in all my colonies in autumn last year. If it is a disease spreading north then it moves fast. Ian Craig has about 60 colonies showing a lot of swarming and Mike Thornley has also seen the same in Helensburgh with his nucs.
Don't think it is option 2 as there is no farming in our area to speak of unless the MOD are using some secret chemical material we don't know about.
Therefore left with option 3,4 and 5
My money is on the changable weather which is somehow confusing the bees. Nellie has not had any issue but the weather down south has been more settled compared to the west coast where we have had more than our average rainfall and extreme hot and cold temperatures this summer

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## Adam

Are we becoming more observant? Maybe it's better communication with these new fangled forum thingies? 

I was going to say that the supercedure issue was the English Disease spreading North but I recall Jon has had problems too. Maybe it came across the channel - Roger Patterson is in S England, maybe he saw it first - before us?

Is the problem down to poor mating? Maybe not. The queen I referred to above has no sign of drone brood except where you'd expect it where there was previous drone brood in the comb. I had a couple of 2010 queens that were superceded early this year after getting through the winter and there was no sign of drone brood there either. I have an eclectic mix of bees in my apiary so I should get a good mix of drones and a  good mix of temperaments :eek. (Yellow italian, Swarmy Carnis, a orangy thing and darker (local) propolis producers.

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## Jimbo

I don't think its supercedure as it is happening in all my nucs where more than one queen cell is being produced on more than one occasion. 
I have queen cells being produced after splitting the original colonies and where the old queen has had plenty of space. I have noticed the occasional queen cell being produced after a split in the past but never in the nucs with new mated queens and after they have produced a couple of frames of brood. 
The only colonies not giving me any problems is a couple of Amm colonies of 95% and 98% Amm. They are still building up and so far have not produced any queen cells

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## Trog

One of our colonies superceded its queen early this year and a friend's colony is busy replacing last year's queen.  Others behaving fairly normally.  The two supercedure colonies had gone from strong to weak over the winter and were the only two on open mesh floors.  I wonder if this could be a factor?

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## GRIZZLY

Not pesticides Gavin,my bees are nowhere near OSR-the farming round here is mostly beef cows with sucklers and silage.I've also had another odd happening-a swarm issued which I collected and hived.The weather turned cold so no chance inspecting that hive.3 days later a second swarm from the same hive - quite a large one.Having hived this one,I finaly got  to go thro' it  today only to find that this second swarm actually contained the original q from last year and marked blue.I don't recall ever having a "cast" issue several days before the prime swarm !!!.Anyone got any thoughts on this occurance ??

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## gavin

Goodness, casts before swarms is beyond my experience.

So - Jimbo's comments interest me.  Might it be the spread of the 'wrong' genetics?  Swarmy Carniolan genes spreading far and wide, not necessarily in obviously Carniolan lines but even hybrid derivatives of them?  Could that be it, swarmy genes giving inappropriate queen cell production?  I have to say that the mother of the colony used to generate the nucs *looked* Amm but I haven't yet done morphometry or taken up Jon's kind offer and they *did* come from a source that has Carniolan look-alikes amongst the stocks there.  Although Jimbo's stocks can't be that contaminated by Carnie genes, can they?

G.

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## Neils

> My money is on the changable weather which is somehow confusing the bees. Nellie has not had any issue but the weather down south has been more settled compared to the west coast where we have had more than our average rainfall and extreme hot and cold temperatures this summer


It's not been too bad down here. We've had a lot of rain but it's played ball and tended to rain in the evenings and over night or overnight into morning and then give a decent half day or warmish weather and no rain.

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## Jon

My uneducated guess is that early or unexpected supersedure could be related to nosema, especially nosema ceranae. I remember Pete L talking about that a while back and I think there has been some research published linking early supersedure to nosema in queens.

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## Beejud

I think I have just experienced something similar and was about to ask for some advice about what was happening. I have a nucleus which had a virgin queen that I reckoned had finally managed to get mated. I saw the first sign of eggs  a week ago but only a few so I left her to get on with it. On Saturday I peeked in to check things and found about six charged queen cells and no sign of any other brood or eggs. I had been feeding the nuc as the weather here has been dire! So what on earth happened?Did she not mate properly and does that mean the cells the bees have drawn will likely be duds? Perhaps I should put a frame of eggs and brood in from another hive now. It's frustrating as I was wanting to use the nuc to requeen a rather bad tempered colony next to it. I have also had rather less success with artificial swarming than usual this year. Some of them are still determined to swarm and are not settling at all. The weather must be part of the problem.

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## Adam

I did a microscopy course in early June, so if I had a microscope I could grind up some bees and look for it (Nosema). Is it Nosema in the queen or Nosema in the colony in general? If it's Nosema in the queen and the queen is one from a batch of grafts, then it would be reasonable to assume that all of those queens are likely to have nosema. Maybe Fumidil B should be given to the queen-rearing colony before and during queen rearing to improve the chances of sucess?

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## Jon

Hi Adam. I don't know if a nosemic queen would produce offspring which emerge with nosema as the spores are usually picked up from wax, honey, pollen or other bees.

I found this paper. The discussion is very interesting. It appears that nosema was linked to early supersedure as far back as a paper published in 1947.




> Our chemical analysis demonstrated that Nosema can significantly modify pheromone production in
> queens; similar results were found in workers in which Nosema parasitism altered the production of
> the pheromone ethyl oleate (Dussaubat et al., 2010). Based on the observation that Nosema-infected
> queens are more likely to be superseded (Farrar, 1947; Furgala, 1962), Butler (1958) suggested that
> infected queens produced lower amount of pheromones. In fact, we found that infected queens
> produced higher quantities of QMP compared to healthy queens. Richard et al. (2007) found that the
> QMP profile changes according to insemination quantity, with virgin or single-drone inseminated
> queens producing higher amounts of 9-ODA and 9-HDA compared to mated or multi-drone
> inseminated queens, respectively. In our study, the QMP compounds, 9-ODA and 9-HAD, were higher
> ...


http://www.prodinra.inra.fr/prodinra...5103742504.pdf

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## Adam

An interesting article, Thanks Jon.

I had a trawl around - A high propensity to supercede is also mentioned by Dave Cushman.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/nosema.html

If - for a moment - we assume that Nosema is the cause and it's not agrochemicals (!), then should we use Fumidil B to treat or should we leave the colonies untreated and ensure that we get genetically more nosema resistant bees in our apiaries?

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## Jon

> If - for a moment - we assume that Nosema is the cause and it's not agrochemicals (!), then should we use Fumidil B to treat or should we leave the colonies untreated and ensure that we get genetically more nosema resistant bees in our apiaries?


I suppose it depends upon the percentage losses. Not treating is a poor option if it causes the loss of all or most of your colonies. If you remember I lost a lot of nucs last winter. I must get the samples in the freezer tested for nosema as that is my number one suspect.

Agrochemicals provoke hysteria rather than early supersedure.

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## EmsE

If suspecting Nosema is the cause, would we also find that our colonies were not able to build up due to the shortened life span of the workers? Hard to tell in colonies that keep swarming, but my gut feeling is the weather. 
Heard reports of nectar going into the hives yesterday. Could this be the June gap coming to a close?

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## gavin

My strongest colony had been pinging out of the entrance this lunchtime.  Isn't it strange how bees in fine fettle and with nectar on their minds can be so expressive of their enthusiasm?!  I suspect that is was clover they were after, but the limes are coming into flower too.  Rosebay willowherb is starting to come out too and the thistles are turning purple.  Bramble has been out for a while.

Jon, I could do you a swap.  I'll send you wings and you could send me bodies.

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## Adam

> Agrochemicals provoke hysteria rather than early supersedure.


Quite right

 :Big Grin:

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## Jon

> Jon, I could do you a swap.  I'll send you wings and you could send me bodies.


Sounds like a deal although I have a lab 1 mile from home which does free nosema testing. I think the samples are large enough to split in most cases so I can send you a few. 30 wings gives a fair idea about the mix of a colony. You only need 50 if you are after Jimbo's Mars bar.

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## EmsE

It's 7 days to the hour since my last inspection of all the hives and found that the nuc I transferred to a full size hive on Sunday has settled well and the Queen survived the trauma which was a relief. I have another lying queen in the artificial swarm I carried out back at the start of May and just need to wait for it to be capped to make sure she mated successfully. The parent hive of this had even more queen cells in. This time there were 3 sealed and several unsealed. I transferred the best unsealed queen cell to the swarm (that I now think was a cast) that I tried to hive a few weeks ago but nothing is really going on in there. As there were plenty of eggs I decided to remove all the queen cells in the hive although i didn't see the Queen. It didn't occur to me at this time to check the supers for bees (as these are normally really full of them) before knocking down the QC's- I usually check them as I'm reassembling the hive. I was in the process of closing up when about 3m away, if that, under the dead bush, in the long grass & brambles was a mass of bees (Again mobile phone left at home :Mad: )
Made an attempt to get them into the nuc box (that I was going to bring home to clean out) and when I left due tothe light was fading, the bees were fanning at the entrance but not many wondering up the cloth to go in. So, another trip to see them tomorrow to sort thing out(shame  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ). So they haven't been trying to supercede the Queen for the past month, they'be been trying to swarm despite being through an AS in May.

Is this the bees equivalent to a baby boom year? :Stick Out Tongue:  Puzzled as I thought I would have been fine checking the bees today as it's only day 7 :Confused: . I think I need to build up the courage to clip my queens next year.

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## chris

> but the limes are coming into flower too.  Rosebay willowherb is starting to come out too and the thistles are turning purple.  Bramble has been out for a while.
> .


Lime here is at the end, but the wild lavendar is in full flower (2 weeks early). And melilot all over the place, the yellow and the white. Do you have melilot in Scotland?

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## Hoomin_erra

And the Bell heather is starting.

Placed my 2 hives next to spring sown OSR yesterday morning. Checked on the way home from work, and both are flying well. 

Now if this bloody weather holds i might actually get some honey this year.

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## gavin

No mellilot Chris.  White clover in pasture, and red clover which honeybees generally can't work - that's the limit of our forage legumes most of the time.  Melilot turns up in game cover but is seldom grown on farms as far as I know.

Do I leave my two strong colonies for a possible lime flow or run to the hills for the bell heather?  Maybe I'll give them a week with the lime to see what happens.  I'm told by a fellow who lives near my bees that the lime trees on the estate were buzzing yesterday.  They are using it to replenish depleted reserves mostly.

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## Jon

I marked and clipped a couple of queens I introduced to colonies I split last weekend.
plunger cage.jpg Q61.jpg Q60.jpg

I use the plunger cage as the queen sticks a wing out when she reverses and if she is held in place with the foam, the wing is easily clipped.

These two were grafted as larvae into a queenless colony on 3rd May, hatched 15th May, mated 4th June and introduced to the queenless part of two splits, 26th June.

They will grow a bit more as just started egg laying out of an apidea but I think they look ok.

Neither of them is with their own bees. The one unmarked in the photo has been used to re-queen a colony of fairly yellow bees. I will do morphometry in the autumn but I have already noted that the bees which have hatched in their apideas do not show any yellow banding which is a good sign.

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## Neils

My colony that's been queenless since April now has a [Virgin} queen, verified with a mark I eyeball. I'll leave them alone for a while to hopefully get on with it and see how they're doing in a fortnight. Please let this one survive the "cheeky sparrows" we've adopted as a new edition to the apiary. They sit in the surrounding trees and swoop across the hive entrances pluck the odd bee or two as they pass.

I have another new Nuc and my friend's swarm, erm, swarmed so we now have getting on 12 colonies on the allotment, though 3 of mine barely qualify for that statement at the moment.

My swarm I'll leave discussion to the other thread  :Smile: 

The one I think should be swarming I naturally didn't get time to inspect today so I will be trying to skip out of work early enough to get up there. Nasty tempered things so I want as many of them out as possible.

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## Jon

I took a pic of the queen I have been grafting from this year, a daughter of a Galtee mated with Galtee drones.

galtee queen.jpg

As you can see she is a small queen, grafted and subsequently mated in an apidea.
In spite of her diminutive stature, she keeps the brood box filled with 10 frames of brood in a perfect pattern - no queen cells made this year, so non swarmy genetics noted.

Most of her daughters are much bigger.

Q60.jpg Q61.jpg

I have seen about 60 of them so far this year.

----------


## lindsay s

I managed to inspect all my colonies at my main apiary on Saturday the weather was good and theres been a honey flow in the past week. There were not so many queen cups/cells in the hives and I was hoping swarming fever had died down. I was at my apiary at 7.30 on Sunday morning strimming round the hives and feeling quite pleased with how everything was going.
On Sunday afternoon I went to Doriss demonstration apiary at the other side of town to cut the grass there. I was just about to start my strimmer when I noticed a swarm on the ground near the hives. I phoned Doris and said I think one of your hives has swarmed and she replied that they were coming from my nucs which I had left there 13 days ago. She also informed me that she had hived another swarm yesterday. 
Rarely in all my years of beekeeping have my nucs swarmed. Once my nucs are made up I leave them alone for a few weeks and usually the bees sort themselves out. Ive been reading elsewhere on this forum about nucs swarming and I know about cast swarms but I didnt think queenless nucs would swarm with virgin queens.
Doris arrived to lend a hand and I was introduced to Alex (hes a N Z beekeeper who manages 600 hives). The three of us soon sorted out the nucs. The first nuc had 8 large queen cells and a few had already hatched. The second nuc had even more queen cells and two even hatched out in front of us and the third nuc had a new queen with no other queen cells. The nucs each started with 2 to 3 good unsealed queen cells but the bees must have decided to make more. These were the strongest 5 frame nucs I have ever made up and it turned out the bees were short of room. So the moral of this story is to check your nucs before the queens hatch and make sure they have plenty of room.

----------


## Calum

Wasps are sniffing about the hives - time to harvest the final crop here according to the old boys. 

Raising queens, they started 30 cells in three queenless colonies but only finished 6. I think they'll be dragging out the drones soon.

(here in south germany, your area might be different!)

----------


## chris

> Do I leave my two strong colonies for a possible lime flow or run to the hills for the bell heather?  Maybe I'll give them a week with the lime to see what happens. .


So, what did you decide Gavin? I hope you got some lime honey for yourself. If the bees have made a lot of reserves from it make sure they don't have too much for the winter as it can cause them dysentery.

----------


## gavin

Definitely a lime flow on at the moment, along with clover, but the rain clouds are coming tomorrow so it will not last.  I may get a few frames for cut comb honey, then I'll take the better ones to the hills.  There they'll get heather honey which I'm sure is worse wintering fodder than lime, but these bees are Scottish bees with cast-iron constitutions and they could live off molasses if they had to!  A couple of the hives have deep yellow staining and the start of the ragwort flowering season may not be unrelated.  Yesterday it was 27.5C as we left the association apiary at 17:00.  

Today not one swarm call but two - the first of the season for me.  Is that because its my birthday?!  One was a reasonable size and the grateful householder pressed a bottle on wine on me for clearing from the neighbourhood the cause of some nervousness in the household - thanks Chris!  The other was a bit wee but a suitable size for an Apidea so Lara become a beekeeper an hour ago.  The first is now settling in at my apiary having started laying wax down on the roof of the empty cardboard kettle box in which they were housed for a couple of hours.

----------


## Neils

Happy birthday, 'grats on the swarms as well.

----------


## Jon

Born on the 4th of July. Sing us a verse of Yankee Doodle Dandy.

----------


## kevboab

Having tried two different methods of queen rearing this season my first home reared queen is now laying and pattern is looking good. I'm usually not one for being patient but I resisted all temptation to annoy them and it has been well worth the wait. Gonna be interesting to see how many more turn out successfully but just need to be patient ay. Meantime I shall have a vodka or two tae celebrate. Cheers guys for the informative posts which have helped me along the way. :-D

----------


## Trog

I'm learning a lot about queen mating habits from this forum.   Two more queens mated and laying today, four more to go!

----------


## GRIZZLY

Went through a colony today - 9 double sided frames of sealed brood,no eggs or unsealed larva and no sign of the queen.I decided to have a look at the one super on top of the colony and found a small patch of sealed brood plus eggs and unsealed larva.I carried on right through the whole box and found an unmarked queen on the last frame.I marked her then ran her back into the brood box.She was a large queen so how she got through the queen excluder is a bit of a mystery.Examination of the queen excluder showed no damaged or wide slots.This colony was the first swarm I collected this year and was a large prime one.All my neucs have mated queens showing decent patches of brood in all stages.Very pleasing considering the inconsistant weather we've been getting.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Heavens above but the bees are busy today!! I don't know what they are foraging but they are pouring in and out of the hives just as fast as they can.  I can see a lot of evidence of working the Himalayan balsam but what else is flowering so prolifically I can’t see.  Theres a fair bit of fireweed as well-but what else??

----------


## gavin

'xcuse me for tidying, but I though that I should fix your CAPS LOCK problem.

Mine at home were frenzied yesterday too.  A smallish proportion were plastered with the white stripe of HB - might most be finding a way to get nectar from the balsam without getting that white stripe?  I can't think what else is getting them excited, unless the ivy is producing too.

----------


## gavin

Bees can escape through the side opening.  Do they go in that way too?



(Interesting - I linked directly to a picture file already embedded in the site and you only seem to see it when you are logged in.  There is a picture up there for those who have an SBAi account!)

In this thread:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-Two-tone-bees

----------


## Adam

Gavin, I don't suppose you have ivy yet? It's not started this far south so far. 
I've ben getting is some nectar thats really dark over the past week or two. Smells like smokey chocolate but tastes almost minty and quite strong. Not sure what it is ???

One of my hives has been getting in orange pollen for 2 or 3 weeks now. All the others in the apiary don't get it and are bringing in a little grey and light yellow pollen. Maybe one stock has long tongues?

----------


## gavin

I haven't checked our ivy yet but I seem to recall that it is no later than down south.  You need warm days to get the ivy to secrete and we haven't had many of them. 

Might your dark honey be honeydew?

Mine brought in a lot of orange pollen while the ragwort was flowering, almost over here now.  One stained all its woodwork bright yellow with it.  There will be various things available for them in suburbia - it is usually easier to be sure from pollen colour in the countryside where there are fewer pollen sources.

----------


## Adam

I'd wondered about honeydew for the dark stuff. Some of it is mixed with other honey in a 40 kg bucket. I hope it mellows with age as it's too strong for me! Maybe I can sell it as 'Premium Full Flavourder Honey" or it could be used as barbecue sauce.

Orange Ragwort pollen? Maybe However therer are lots of horses around here and horses and ragwort don't go together it seems.
http://www.horsedata.co.uk/Ragwort.htm

----------


## GRIZZLY

Is this weather ever going to improve?.Allright for you east coast boys with your sunshine and reasonable temperatures - we stalwarts in the west are having to cope with rain,dull cloud and high winds as well as quite cold.Dared'nt even think of lifting hive roofs at the moment.Jon must be similar in Belfast,

----------


## Jon

It is dire here. The garden has lying water in it but the bees are bringing in a lot of ivy pollen when the rain stops.

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## Adam

As an East Coast Boy, it's quite dry here - not much rain, but windy yesterday. A nuc blew over. It didn't come apart so I put it upright and made sure the bricks it was sitting on were level as they weren't before!

----------


## Neils

If it's any consolation it's peeing it down in Crete too.

----------


## Jon

Bet it's warmer than 4c though.

----------


## Adam

I hefted my hives last weekend. A couple were lighter than I remember and lifting off the roof, the crown boards of these were warm so there was significant brooding going on. One of these is a Carniolan type bee in my first polyhive. The other is a orangy bee - (so possibly some italian in there?)  in a WBC (no insulation). I've never fed in November but I thought it warm enough that the bees would process it OK. As a result the WBC has consumed 6 litres of thick thymolated syrup this week. The polyhive less - about 3. Sisters of these queens seem to behaving properly and not brooding and consuming stores as far as I can tell. I also took the opportunity to poke some food into some mini-nucs which has gone too.

I woke last night at 1 AM feeling hot and walked downstairs - the temperature outside was 15.5 degrees as displayed on my outside thermometer. In November. Mad! It's far too warm; bees haven't decided to cluster yet and they are consuming stores but with little forage I think. A concern for later in the winter if they run out of stores.

----------


## Jon

Adam 
My colonies are still full of brood and I have native type bees.
They are consuming lots of stores and bringing in loads of pollen.
I will have to keep a close eye on stores in January and February as some appear to be a bit light.

----------


## Trog

I'm worried about stores too.  October was warm but wet so they weren't foraging but were quite likely raising brood.  Today they were out in force, bringing in pollen from ivy and fuchsia.  If it's still warm on Sunday I may take a look at a couple of colonies I'm worried about.  We fed earlier than usual this year in case of early cold weather.  Too late to feed syrup now, I feel.  Will make up some candy for topping up stores later on.

----------


## Jon

I transferred two colonies in correx nucs on to open mesh floors today.
The first one was in a double decker correx contraption with 4 frames and a dummy on the ground floor and 7 frames up above.
This was two colonies I combined 3 weeks ago. All the bees had moved upstairs and there were 3 frames of brood mostly sealed.
I got them squeezed into 8 frames plus a 3 frame dummy in a national. It has about 25lbs of stores so should be fine.

The second one was a 7 frame nuc in a correx box at the association apiary. This one went into a similar box but with an open mesh floor.
It also had 3 frames of brood and I saw the marked queen during the brief transfer. I gave it 3k of fondant and put a rectangle of insulation on top of the roof.
The bees were flying strongly and bringing in ivy pollen with the temperature around 11c in the sunshine.

----------


## Adam

*"The first one was in a double decker correx contraption with 4 frames and a dummy on the ground floor and 7 frames up above".*
Is this a cue for you to get your new camera out and let us see the contraption?

----------


## Jon

It was just my standard correx box but with a cutaway roof and another with an open floor sitting above it.
I united then via a piece of mesh which had a small hole plugged by fondant. The queen was in the bottom box when I united them so the pheromones were wafting up for a couple of days through the mesh before the two lots combined. I removed the mesh when they were together.

----------


## Bridget

After three hard frosts and beautiful days I see lots of our bees are out and about.  In fact I haven't seen them so busy since early September.  Not suprising really considering the wet dreich weather we,ve had here.  So I must remember to make a note in my wee book so this time next year I'm astonished that they are out and about! or maybe not.

----------


## Adam

The forecast for the weekend for me is 18 degrees and some sun.
Are my bees ever going to get some winter rest?

----------


## kevboab

Forecast for weekend here Adam is 13c. Was along hefting hives today and found drones only just being evicted from some colonies. This time last year those guys were long gone. Some colonies still have plenty stores but others are going to need fondant to get them through me thinks. Definately gonna need to keep an eye on them over winter if it ever arrives.

----------


## Jon

I still have drones in some colonies. They were flying on Sunday with the temperature around 11-12c.
I have fed more than I normally do but some colonies will still need a wee bit of fondant.
There is still ivy in bloom everywhere and pollen is coming in whenever there is a break in the rain.
I put a couple of kilos of fondant in a super above each of 4 apideas today.
They are on double apideas with the super of fondant on top so fingers crossed for getting some of them through the winter.
I have 4 more with virgin queens or failing queens which have no chance but these four look good at this point.

----------


## Adam

Had to pop home this morning to take an ill child to an appointment. My varroa damaged colony had a good number of bees doing orientation flights which I was pleased to see.  :Smile:  It's about 6 weeks since some donor brood was given and varroa was under control so about right - 3 weeks as eggs/larvae and 3 weeks as young bees before flying.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...damaged-colony

Returning home an hour later, all stocks were flying - there was a real buzz in the apiary. Sunny and 15 degrees. I was thinking it's about time for the mankini. A dirty yellow/orange pollen was being brought in plus nectar. A few drones were about too.
Father-in-law arrives and advises againt the mankini  :Frown: ; he says that his Star of Bethlehem is in flower which usually flowers in the spring.

Jon, are your failing queens from this year or are they oldies? Is it worth combining if the weather holds warm for a few days? (I've never done it this late before and never considered it).

Kevboab. Where are you? There's no location shown on your posts.

----------


## Jon

The failing or unmated queens are in apideas just for observation purposes. I think I have done all the combining I am going to do this year, touch wood.

My mate Tim has built himself a rig to try instrumental insemination and I collected 35 drones for him outside one of my colonies earlier today.
I leaned a queen excluder against the front and picked them off as they returned. It was sunny and about 13c.
I also have a virgin queen for him from one of the apideas. I knew it would come in useful.
he can get a bit of practice in now rather than waiting until next May.

----------


## gavin

Nice to read of the technical advances being trialled in the Belfast area.

Don't think that we can match Adam's 15C (was 12C at the car at lunch) but the local bees were out in numbers for the ivy which still has visible nectar on the flowers.  The drone flies often compete for space, but there were very few of them today.  Maybe their season is over.  Not so for a big butch Red Admiral which was sharing the ivy bonanza with the bees.

----------


## Jon

Mine were flying today like the do in summer. Bearding at the entrances.
It is making me a bit nervous as they must be consuming stores at a great rate with all the late brood rearing.
Are the other native bee people seeing this? Rosie, where have you disappeared to?

----------


## Jimbo

Hi Jon,

I can't comment as all my colonies are in out apairy's and I can only get to the bees on a Saturday or Sunday. Last Saturday was cold and they were not flying. Sunday we had freezing fog. The forcast for this weekend looks to be much better.

----------


## Jon

> this weekend looks to be much better.


Same here, 14-15c predicted.
I have ended up with 4 colonies and 2 nucs behind the shed at the bottom of the garden so I always have a few close at hand to observe.
Keeping drones into November is unusual and I don't think it is indicative of a queen problem in my case.
I opened a colony 3 weeks ago which had drones flying and found it had 4 frames of good looking worker brood.

----------


## kevboab

Im in Central Scotland Adam. 

Have started making more boxes for next season already using old scaffolding boards which my brother in law had laying around. There a tad crude but when costing nothing but a bit of time, screws and glue then i certainly cant complain. Same outer size as a national and they can hold 11 hoffman frames. A wee lick of paint and they'll be fine n dandy.

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## kevboab

Heres a wee pic of boxes. Meant to upload it with post. Sorry !!!

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## Troutnabout

They look heavy enough without being full of combs and honey :EEK!:

----------


## GRIZZLY

WHAT A NIGHT !!
Spent this morning restacking all my spare plastic hives,fortunately empty,which the wind had scattered around the garden.No damage at all to the boxes,lids and floors.Very robust units from Murray.Forecast is still more to come,so I must go round to the builders centre to get some REALY HEAVY blocks to stop future mayhem.Just shows what 90mph winds can do !!.

----------


## gavin

I'll see later whether the topped up weights on the polyhives at the association apiary were enough.  Maybe not, there is a shortage of large blocks in the vicinty.  I'm reluctant to go and pay for blocks, but maybe I should.  They are certainly tough units these polystyrene boxes.

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## susbees

Something to be said for a good hefty log hive....

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

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## GRIZZLY

O.A'd the bees yesterday.All the neucs had good seams of bees.I gave all the neucs a 2 1/2 kg bag of Ambrosia fondant to get them over the worst of the coming freeze.The full colonies also looking good so far.Busy knocking new frames together but as our Ass'n meeting for Feb is a practical "How to put it all together" session I must save some for our new beginners to play with.I won't wax them until I intend to use them.Also got ten new supers to assemble to use with my new "Murray" Poly nationals.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Despite the very low temperatures some of the bees have been lured out by the bright sunlight and are flitting around the fronts of the hives.Interestingly enough it's the bees in the wooden hives that are active.Perhaps the extra insulation afforded by the poly hives stabilises the internal hive temperatures.

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## Calum

-5°C here all day, and -20°C tonight, bees have been about since before the ice age, I dont think they had poly hives back then.
Mine are quite happy, I installed a suggestions box and forms for them to fill in about complains and improvement oppertunities - the box is empty, they must be happy.

----------


## GRIZZLY

We have missed the snow so far down here and not too frosty.Still seeing the odd bee venturing out for a look see.Soon nip backinto the hive though.

----------


## GRIZZLY

All 18 colonies flying strongly and enjoying the sun and much warmer temperatures.Good to see all the activity - must keep an eye on the stores.

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## Calum

lucky you. -15°C today here, lovely sunny day tho. Finally winter is properly here! Hope it stays like this till March.

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## Trog

A sight for sore eyes today; all but 2 hives active (and living bees in the other two so maybe they preferred candy).  Gorse and snowdrops flowering and lovely and sunny once the fog cleared.

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## gavin

I really look forward to seeing mine out on the snowdrops - but I doubt that it has been warm enough here yet.

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## Neils

Also in the news I notice:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16114890




> Monitoring devices are being put in bee hives across Scotland as part of a project to keep an eye on their health.
> 
> The monitors record temperature and use a microphone to record the hum the bees make while working and resting.
> 
> Already the project has started to show the many different hums bees use to co-ordinate their work.
> 
> The project is also helping to work out which environmental forces and factors are behind the decline in bees and other pollinators.
> 
> ...
> Mr Evans is working with the Scottish Beekeepers Association, and the little black boxes are now sitting in about 70 hives across the region.

----------


## GRIZZLY

> Also in the news I notice:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16114890


Have you got a little black box yet Gavin???

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## Trog

I have three, one of which is likely to give some interesting data.  I suspect the rainfall monitor might be considered faulty, though, as the rainfall figures for Dec/Jan are literally unbelievable (except that they're backed up by my daily rainfall records)!

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## gavin

> Have you got a little black box yet Gavin???


All I have is black marks against my name!

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## gavin

> I have three, one of which is likely to give some interesting data.


Can I make some predictions?!  Any good scientist will start with a hypothesis which he aims to corroborate or disprove.  I have several and here are mine:

- when it is too cold, the bees don't go out
- when it is too wet, the bees don't go out
- when there are few flowers, bees hardly go out
- when there is a flow on, they are really busy
- in the wild west, bee colonies increase and decline more gracefully with the seasons
- in the arable east, bee colonies boom when they have super-abundant forage, such as pesticide-tainted oilseed rape or raspberry (as long as the soil has moisture and the weather is OK)
- when you stick nasties in the colony to kill other arthropods (mites), the bees don't like it
- .... but they are healthier later, unlike those that didn't get bee-bothering chemicals
- some colonies just don't do well due to Nosema, acarine, poor queens, inappropriate feeding, viruses, chalkbrood or a range of other issues which are only properly understood when you have professional and highly trained bee health people running the work

Hardly original, I know.  The kind of thing you can pick up in any good bee husbandry book.

I have another theory.  Some swarms are thin at one end, get thicker in the middle, and are thin again at the other end.  Ahem!




Don't get me wrong, Trog.  Deciphering the aural communication in bee hives would be a fine thing and I'd be really interested in the outcome.  Presumably the original reason for linking this to a study trying to prove a link to pesticides was that someone thought that bees were going to get confused and disorientated when exposed, and show this in the sounds in a hive?  Yet now all mention of pesticides is absent from the Connolly quote at the Beeb web site above, despite the £1.8m to study it.

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## gavin

That's another little black mark against my name!

OK, off to the new Perth BKA AGM.

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## Trog

OK, Gav, you're a scientist; I'm a musician.  IIRC the chap who did the original research into the sounds bees make was also musical.  I use my ears as much as my eyes with the bees.  These black box listening devices are therefore interesting to me regardless of whatever else is found out because they are listening when I am not.  Sorry if that's not scientific enough but there's more than one way to approach life and I'm happy with mine.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Daffodils realy coming into bloom-catching up to the Snowdrops.Bees working the Snowdrops and also all over the Daffodils from which they are getting loads of pollen.First time I can recall seeing them on the Daffodils-thet're just mugging each flower as it comes out.All hives are active - realy nice to see them all come thro' so far.Hopefully will be an early season.Must go and check the O.S.R.fields for suitable sites for the bees.

----------


## Trog

We're not that far north of you, Grizzly, but it's wet n windy here today.  Daffs out down the road but not in our garden.  Crocus has attempted flowering as usual and, as usual, been drowned and battered!  However, the first tulip is flowering so I've put a wire basket over it to try and keep the deer off!  Lots of housework going on in the hives but has anyone else noticed fewer dead bees outside the entrances this winter?

----------


## Calum

0°c again here today, but I am a little further south.
The ground is still frozen solid. But time to check the hive weights - when they kick off they'll use about 300g/day... So I'll be shuffeling stores from the two that didnt make it to light ones this weekend, if it is warm enough...

----------


## Bridget

About 11degrees but very blustery and squally in the Highlands so I was surprised to see them out and about, battling against the wind to get back to the hive.  No idea what they are finding to bring back but they seem to have something dangling from their legs. (note to self - put the kit on, go in closer and take a tripod for those shaky hands) Photo taken at about 12 feet and blown up so sorry not very clear.  any ideas?  I've been out looking for hazel, found one fairly close but not a bud on it let alone a catkin.  A few bedraggled crocus and some snowdrops but they are not interested in them.  PS How do bees carry water home?

----------


## GRIZZLY

Bees carry water same as nectar - in their honey stomachs.

----------


## gavin

Bees at the association apiary were taking nectar from winter Ericas at lunchtime (12C) and Murray says some of his are on butterbur (white pollen) and that he's seen the first willow out (which is remarkably early).

----------


## Hoomin_erra

Daffs are starting to shoot up, snowdrops are out, as is Willow and gorse. 

But the bees have battened down the hatches, so they don't fly sideways like the chickens.

----------


## Rosie

I am surpised you have willow out in your part of the world.  Here there is little evidence of willow starting apart from a few signs of white parts showing on buds at the very top of the trees.  I only know that because I cut one down today and spotted the buds.  From the ground they all look dormant.  We do have snowdrops though and the hazel catkins are starting to elongate.

Rosie

----------


## gavin

I haven't seen them out myself yet but there is a long row of them near the association apiary and they've been showing full white catkins for a fortnight or so.

Spent some time with Murray this afternoon and he showed me the butterburs near one of his apiaries.  They supply nectar as well as pollen over quite a long season.

And the hazel has been in full flower for a while.

----------


## drumgerry

Hazel, whin and snowdrops out just now here in Speyside.  Bees were flying strongly yesterday bringing in bright orange pollen in the 14C temps - none poking their heads out today in 7C!

----------


## Neils

Mine were just about flying today. Once colony was very light on stores and I'm out of fondant so I've used a bag of sugar soaked in water plonked on top of the feed hole. Most of it seems to be dripping through the floor but I'm a bit happier that they shouldn't starve. 

A few trees have blossom which is where I'm guessing the small amounts of pollen I saw going in was coming from but the allotment still looks a good few weeks away from bursting into life.

----------


## Jon

> so I've used a bag of sugar soaked in water plonked on top of the feed hole. .


R U Eric in disguise!

----------


## Neils

Not quite, simply couldn't get my hands on any fondant in a short space of time and I didn't want to consider the possibility that they'd starve. Heard it said that in a push a bag of sugar soaked in water is an "emergency" replacement for fondant but without the risks of giving them full on syrup so early in the year.

----------


## Jon

The sugar bag works fine in an emergency but there is a lot of waste if you have an OMF.
I often use sugar in the apideas - slightly wetted with a water sprayer.
It is getting to be expensive.
I think out local fondant supplier is charging near £15 for a 12.5k box and a bag of sugar is over £1 in most of the supermarkets.

----------


## Neils

£1 a bag is still cheaper than £150+ a nuc!  I can cope with a bit of wastage. Spring is trying to sprung but it's not here yet and the hive is only light because it ws a late nuc that didn't have time to properly build up and bring the stores in so I feel a degree of responsibility for them being light on stores, I just don't want to put them on syrup if I don't have to.

----------


## Jimbo

I have moved to the Drone Rangers method of adding sugar. I place 500g in a plastic food container, add about 30-40ml of water and stick it in the microwave for 2mins. I take it out and give it another mix and another 1 min in the microwave. Depends on the power of your microwave.Take it out (carefully as it is molten sugar) tap it down with a teaspoon to firm up and leave to cool. It gives me a thin slab of candy which fits nicely over the frames. Add as many slabs you require. As it is hard candy there is little loss of sugar.

----------


## gavin

As I'm getting low on fondant and I still have some bags of sugar kicking about in the back of the estate (as you do) I've resorted to the wetted sugar bag trick too for a couple of colonies.  They've been taking it out of the bags for the last few weeks.  Interesting to read of Drone Ranger's tip - sounds worth a try.  It isn't easy to judge the right amount of water to add to the bag in the apiary so some of mine started slopping down through the frames too.

Guess that puts me in Eric's gang - on the other hand I suspect that this is an old trick that predates young whippersnappers like Eric.

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## Neils

Only one small problem for me Jimbo, I don't own a microwave.

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## Jon

You invested too much of your personal wealth in that fancy cellphone.
Maybe a neighbour would let you dissolve some sugar in a microwave.
Everyone knows the bees are dying (see Moraybeedinosaurs site) and I imagine they will be queuing up to help alleviate the plight of our endangered pollinators.

I got a microwave in the local co-op for £29.99 about 10 years ago and it is still working perfectly heating up baked beans and melting frozen soup from the freezer.
Every other machine in the house has broken down in that time including the gas boiler twice.

----------


## gavin

There may be another way for Nellie.  You never know with these Bristolian neighbours.  Can turn on you (but more likely your local Tescos) at the drop of a hat.

This came in from Bee-L tonight.  It appears to use only traditional ingredients without the need for special electronics.

_This winter I used left over 2:1 syrup, which I do not cook I just add the
hottest tap water I have to my sugar and stir, and made my packed sugar
with it. Generally I do the 1 oz of cold water to each pound of sugar but I
wanted to use up the syrup.  It set up like a brick, very hard, I like it a
lot better. I ended up using about 1.5 to 1.25 ozs, by measured not weight,
to each pound of sugar. It dries quickly, doesn't crumble or break I think
I will always use syrup instead of water for hard packed sugar.

Karen T-K_

----------


## Neils

More likely to kill their bees feeding them the "best" brown organic sugar these days. The Tesco is still there. No-one uses it very much but they've stopped trying to burn it down.

I don't need a microwave and I've only got a small kitchen so there are other gadgets I'd rather than have if it came to it.

One hive was looking a bit light so I shoved a bag of sugar on it, blimey. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition No-one expects the spanish inquisition. over it.  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> One hive was looking a bit light so I shoved a bag of sugar on it, blimey. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition No-one expects the spanish inquisition. over it.


People have been burnt for less and been thankful for it.
Could you not set a small microwave on top of something?
Is your kitchen so small as to be completely bereft of Formica?

----------


## Jimbo

Nellie You could do it the old fashioned way and just boil the sugar on your stove If you look at the SBA Technical Data sheets the method is there for making candy. That is if you have a stove and still not cooking on an open fire

----------


## Neils

Blimey, don't you start!

It's a bit tricky making candy in a cauldron over an open fire, fairytale accounts to the contrary not withstanding.

To be honest I didn't want to go through all the faff of making candy for one hive. Nor did I want to start feeding syrup (once you start, you can't stop!).  A bag of wet sugar does the job, is quick, cheap and easy and doesn't require me covering the kitchen in hot sugar which always impresses the mrs.

----------


## chris

> A bag of wet sugar does the job, is quick, cheap and easy and doesn't require me covering the kitchen in hot sugar which always impresses the mrs.


Nellie, do you slash the paper wrapping a little?

----------


## Neils

I did, probably more than was strictly necessary but I put it on top of the crown board rather than directly on the frames.

----------


## Jon

When I fed sugar to my nucs I put a double piece of newspaper on top of the top bars and poured the sugar on to it. I then sprayed it with a water sprayer until it just started to dissolve a bit. If you look in a couple of hours later the bees are all around the edge of the pile tucking in. This was summer feeding rather than winter though.

Bees are flying well today in dull weather 11c.

I had to sneak the microwave into the house and the complaints went on for several years afterwards. For some reason the other half equates microwaves with all that is wrong with the world. I might as well have piled up a load of trainers stitched by slave labour Vietnamese children on the work surface. I get the same reaction every time I come home with something from Primark.
In your case you might be confusing microwaves with Microsoft.

----------


## Neils

I earn a living off MS products so I've no problem with MS, Apple just make better, more convenient, windows machines than everyone else.  

I just don't need a microwave and have nowhere to put it, I'd rather have a nice coffee machine or a food processor.

----------


## Jon

Reluctantly changing the subject from home appliances back to bees, I noticed that one of my colonies had a pile of mouse chewed wax under the OMF.
I never got round to putting the mouse guards on this year although I am the proud owner of ten of them purchased for under £1 each in a special offer by Thorne some years ago.
This was a weak colony in December and a quick look showed that the mouse had only chewed a bit of one frame at the back.
I saw a patch of eggs on the next frame and the one after that had brood all stages so I closed it up at that point.
If this one has brood they will all have brood.
We did not get any of that sub zero weather they had in Ingerland and it has been around 8c-10c right through January and February.
The stronger colonies were really busy and bringing in a lot of pollen of various colours.

----------


## GRIZZLY

(We did not get any of that sub zero weather they had in Ingerland and it has been around 8c-10c right through January and February.
The stronger colonies were really busy and bringing in a lot of pollen of various colours).[/QUOTE]

Jon not only did you not get lower temperatures =  you're sitting over there in blazing sunshine.I know 'cos I can see it from here in the Rhins of Galloway away over the sea.We're sitting in the gloom of low black cloud with occasional rain.My bees are sort of working but theres very little forage for them at the moment.No sign of the willows yet,the whins are flowering but the bulbs are on the wane.

----------


## gavin

More on low energy, low use of domestic appliance sugar products for the early spring:

_You do need to line your containers with wax paper or parchment paper. I
line the container with paper, put my wet sugar in and press it in good. I
make all thicknesses. The link is to a block which is 3 1/2 pounds, made it
in a 9 X 12 X 1 1/2 aluminum pan.
https://plus.google.com/photos/11380...545?banner=pwa


 I always leave the paper on the blocks when I put them in hives. Drying
time is short since I put them in the furnace room where it is warm and put
shims between them for air space. The thin ones, like in the photo, usually
dry in 24 hours but that is in a very dry warm room. I have put a fan on
them when I needed them fast. The syrup is the way to go they are much
harder than with cold water. I was mixing twenty pounds of sugar at a time
and wishing I had a cement mixer.

I do not put any protein patties on until this time of year since most
winters my bees do not get to fly. This winter most days have been 40 F or
above and spring is early the daffodils have buds.

Karen_ (on Bee-L)

Amazingly, it being February still, there are Forsythias in flower here - and not just in suburban areas but my rural homeland too.  That is one bush that goes by temperature rather than daylength or some other measure of the calendar.  Of course the bees generally have little interest in Forsythia, but they do visit flowering currant more often and it is out too.  As the rule is generally not to open bee hives until the flowering currant is out, I opened one yesterday and even lifted a frame to show Julie, a great supporter of beekeeping through SBS Ltd, something you'll hear more about later.

----------


## Jon

> you're sitting over there in blazing sunshine


I wish!
It is fairly bright though and 11c again today.

Forsythia and flowering currant are out here too.

----------


## Jimbo

Gavin, Lifes too short for all that faffing around. Damp sugar in the microwave 2-3 min. Job done, and you will have a block of candy similar to the one in the photo

----------


## GRIZZLY

Seems like a good prospect for first hive examinations next week.Slap bang in the middle of a high with no wind and the promise of reasonable temperatures.Been nice today with the bees flying freely.Bit of pollen coming in.

----------


## gavin

Today the cherry plum (aka myrobalan plum, the rootstock of many of the plum trees in the orchard) was in flower.  Saw a little blackthorn out locally too, one early dandelion and the bees were very busy bringing in mostly willow pollen but a few other types too.



See the stushie at the hives.



Here's one in mid-air approaching another dowsed in willow pollen.



There are more in the blog.

----------


## Neils

Steady on Gavin, lovely photos again.

----------


## gavin

I hadn't realised that my ham-fisted banging in of nails was going to get such exposure.  I'll try for more of these shots of the main flows through the season.  OSR next, or maybe dandelion or sycamore.

----------


## EmsE

We've had two beautiful days this weekend with sunshine from dawn till dusk  :Big Grin: . I took the opportunity to brush down the open mesh floors which only had a handful of dead bees on as the bees had done a great job of clearing them anyway. Those on solid floors (that came with the 2nd hand hives I got) received a fresh, dry one which will hopefully help the bees feel better and ready for spring  :Smile: 

It would be a shame to discard the solid floors but after seeing one after winter certainly feel the omf faired better so I'll try and adapt them. Thornes are selling The national varroa screen for £15 which would do the job however will see if I can make them instead.

----------


## Jon

Hi Emse.
I have about half on solid floors and half on open mesh floors and I am damned if I can notice much difference. If anything the ones on the solid floors build up a wee bit faster in spring. You get better ventilation with the OMF but better heat retention with the solid floor so a case of swings and roundabouts. Mine were all flying well this weekend. Stacks of pollen coming in.

----------


## Adam

*Today the cherry plum (aka myrobalan plum, the rootstock of many of the plum trees in the orchard) was in flower. Saw a little blackthorn out locally too, one early dandelion and the bees were very busy bringing in mostly willow pollen but a few other types too.
*
Gavin there's also the mirabella plum which appears to be slightly different if you go to wikepedia (mirabellum - prunus domestica syriaca) or the myrobalan (prunus cerasifera). Is there any significant difference? I suspect not. (Sorry, module 2!).

----------


## gavin

Hi Adam

Yes, they are different but after a while one Prunus starts to look like another!  The identification of the plants in the orchard was by a local fruit expert so I don't plan to argue.  Myrobalan plum (=cherry plum) was commonly used as a rootstock and often re-grows in old orchards and can grow into a tree after the original plum has gone.

The Mirabelle plum is a cultivar with lots of small yellow fruit.  I don't know if it flowers as early as cherry plum does.

The local plums are now well out in the Carse of Gowrie (the early ones anyway!).

Gavin

PS Once of this Parish - LOL!

----------


## GRIZZLY

When I lived "down south"-actually Royal Leamington Spa, our local park had planted a load of cherry plums for ornament.The plums were of 3 colours - yellow,red and black.We refered to them as "bullaces".They made the most delicious plum wine.I've still got a couple of bottles now over 20 years old,clear as a bell and VERY potent.
The weather continues very cool with a nasty cold bite in the wind.The willows are slowly coming out but I recon another week at least before they are much use to the bees.You seem to be getting the sun and higher temperatures Gavin.Still too cold to do much with the bees except watch a few hardy souls struggle in with a bit of daffodil and whins pollen.Bud break slow here this year.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I think I'll also get a cherry plum tree in the ground as soon as possible.  I've planted loads of willows and crocuses - but there's still a shortage of forage around here apart from a few gorse bushes (and not enough of them either).  I saw a bee on a daffodil today.  I thought bees aren't interested in daffodils, so does that mean she is desperate, or just curious?
Kitta

----------


## nemphlar

I had a mature alder next door for early pollen until the badgers undermined it, I planted 100's of king Alfred's in bunches around the garden to try and replace this source and the bees always work them, it just needs a critical mass for them to notice.

----------


## Adam

Thanks Gavin.

*PS Once of this Parish - LOL!* 

Ahh I see, you look but don't touch!

Kitta, I too thought that bees don't like daffodils unless there's not much else. (That's the published wisdom anyway).

----------


## Jon

We should add that daffodil pic to the beekeeping myths thread. I have been guilty of repeating that one myself.

----------


## drumgerry

I'd be interested to hear more about the daffodils thing if anyone has more information.  Our garden is heaving with them - hundreds if not thousands of them - and I've never seen a bee bothering with them.  Maybe we have the wrong varieties?

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I don't have any more information, Drumgerry - perhaps you need King Alfreds, or perhaps your bees have plenty of other things to eat.  I saw another daffodil visitor today.  I think Adam is right - they're only visiting my daffodils because of the scarcity of other bee plants.  Perhaps, with the loss of the alder, Nemphlar's bees are in a similar situation?

The critical mass idea is interesting.   Recently, in South Africa, I visited a beekeeper who is researching and evaluating bee forage.  He gave the example of aloes which have a low value in terms of bee forage, but if your hive is placed on a hill covered with aloes, then they become a valuable food source - like Nemphlar's King Alfreds, I suppose.  (That South African beekeeper gave me a jar of Jacaranda honey - it was delicious.)

Kitta

----------


## gavin

> Ahh I see, you look but don't touch!


I sometime go there for a peek, but I'm not minded to post there.  Don't trust them not to mess with it again, still annoyed about the stupid changes, the images on the old posts are still goosed, so many of the old posters gone, now seems a mostly BBKA forum rather than a welcoming international one ..... no point really.  So I post on the one that seems to have a good number beekeepers lacking even the most basic social responsibility!  

Today?  So much happening out there.  The willows are in full flow.  There was a good flush of dandelions open in the Technology Park at lunchtime, lots of plums out locally.  Early pear trees not far off flowering.  Bees bringing in lots of pollen.  The orchard has geese now which are very friendly creatures, coming right up to me and even peering in boxes when I took the roof off.  Hand-reared I believe.

Oh, and lots of daffs with not a bee on them.

----------


## GRIZZLY

My bees are working the daffodils like mad.We've got about 1/2 an acre of them -all different varieties-and the bees don't differentiate between the varieties at all.The pollen is quite yellow.I dont know if any nectar is produced although some of the flowers are very scented.Todays warmer weather has started the willow catkins into growth so it wont be long before the bees are able to work them.Dissappointingly our local O.S.R. farmer is giving his farm a rest this year and is growing it on his fathers farm some 30 miles away which makes the transport costs quite significant when repeated visits are necessary to avoid solid combs.I've just acquired a good out apiary site for some of my stocks with a large acreage of sycamore and about 600 acres of pasture laced with a lot of white clover-so have high hopes of a crop provided the weather is kind.All my stocks have come thro' the winter ,all with a surprisingly large amount of stores in the brood boxes.

----------


## Jon

Hi Grizzly. I think it has been a good winter all round. Hardly any losses and most of mine have plenty of stores as well. I have a couple of colonies much stronger than expected for the time of year.
There is a lot of early forage out.
Dandelion has been in flower for several weeks here. I watched a bee collecting pollen from one in the garden earlier today. I don't know if they are secreting nectar but this bee was only after pollen.
I noticed a couple of flowers open on my Victoria plum and the Conference Pear tree is not far behind.
There are also a few flowers on the gooseberries and I watched a bee working them this afternoon.
I noticed some of the autumn raspberry I didn't cut back has flower almost out and it usually starts to flower at the end of July.

I checked the colony where I released a replacement queen for a drone layer last Saturday and she was running around nicely and I saw a patch of eggs. That one will be slow to build up as it is starting to make brood a month later than the others. I will give it some emerging brood later on but it is too early to be redistributing brood in March.

----------


## Adam

> So I post on the one that seems to have a good number beekeepers lacking even the most basic social responsibility!  
> .


I noticed that too. Thankfully that attitude doesn't appear here.  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

If it does this place has plenty of socially responsible beekeepers to slap such attitudes down.

It is worrying that there are such attitudes in the beekeeping community.  In the last few days I've been completely rethinking my own attitude to the regulation of beekeeping.  Maybe we need compulsory registration, or local laws regulating beekeeping in urban areas.  Folk need protection from the nutters.

----------


## Jon

There seem to be a lot of folk who think they can do whatever they like in their own garden and to hell with the neighbours.
I am sure we all get mildly irritated at times by some of the neighbours' activities but it's crazy to fall out over hedge height, smoky barbeques or noisy kids.

----------


## Adam

> If it does this place has plenty of socially responsible beekeepers to slap such attitudes down.
> 
> It is worrying that there are such attitudes in the beekeeping community.  In the last few days I've been completely rethinking my own attitude to the regulation of beekeeping.  Maybe we need compulsory registration, or local laws regulating beekeeping in urban areas.  Folk need protection from the nutters.


Problem, though,  is you can't have a rule that says "You're welcome to be a beekeeper as long as you're not a git." Even if it makes sense. The next problem is, if the 'gits' are awkward and 'nuisance beek' articles get into the tabloids we'll get laws that will help nobody.

----------


## Adam

No dandelion for me yet. Some of the later prunus trees are just about to flower and a little Braeburn apple tree in the garden is about to flower too.
I have a nuc which had no viable queen and I dumped a mini-nuc on it - uniting with newspaper. Once united I put in 2 frames of brood with young bees and that seems to be doing nicely. I took the opportunity before the queen laid up too much brood and there were enough bees to look after the inserted brood.

----------


## Jon

There is a certain sense of satisfaction in saving basket case colonies. One of my strongest at the moment was down to a queen and a couple of hundred bees this time last year and it still has the same queen. I rescued it to an apidea and built it up to a stack of four before shaking it on to a couple of frames of emerging brood in June.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Finaly managed to rehive all my neucs into nice new hives with additional clean combs and wax.Am now feeding to bounce the hive populations up and to get some nice drawn comb.Loads of pollen coming in especially as my willows are now coming out.Loads of butterflies about,mainly tortoiseshells but with the odd peacock as well.

----------


## gavin

It seems like such a long time ago when the weather was so good for the bees.  

I had lunch with two beekeepers today, one of them a full-time professional, and his guys reported in to say that they were surprised to find themselves putting second supers on some colonies in Fife despite the unpromising weather.  

When I saw my own hives an hour or two later - in between the heavy showers and the black clouds to the north and at a temp of about 11C - all six were flying furiously.  One seemed to be bringing more rape than the others but most of the activity seemed to be from something else.  I could see bees on sycamore (and there is a lot of that nearby), horse chestnut and pear.  It looks like the trees are yielding quite a bit of nectar at the moment.   One sycamore near the apiary is starting go over but sycamore likes to stagger its flowering so there are plenty more trees to come.

Not quite at the supering stage in my apiary as some colonies have gone backwards in terms of bee numbers in the last month, but they are making up for lost time when the sun comes out.  Wet ground and a lack of wind really seems to help.

----------


## Jimbo

Colonies building up nicely but the sycamore is no where near ready in the West. A few more weeks for the horse chestnut though. Did an introduction to beekeeping night for the general public on Thursday. Over 25 people turned up and 18 of those has indicated they are interested in opening hives in the club apairy. About to run 2 sessions this afternoon. Its great to see there is still interest in people starting beekeeping If they all then join the association we will have to look for a bigger hall as we will have doubled the membership in one night

----------


## Jon

Good result Jimbo. The horse chestnut is in flower in sub tropical Belfast and the sycamore is nearly out as well. Pear is just about finished and apple has started. Dandelion everywhere and several fields of oil seed rape. I wonder how much of these sources are producing nectar at temperatures of 10-11c. The rape wont be. No shortage of pollen anyway.

----------


## gavin

We've wondered about a public day of some kind too, maybe in mid-summer, but I have my hands full with beginners at the moment (in a manner of speaking).

The sycamore which has been flowering for three weeks is alongside a horse chestnut which has also been in flower for a week or two.  I think that they got a fright when some oaks around them blew down in winter so they've been spooked into rushing into flower.  Trust me, I'm a (plant) doctor.  Many others are in early flowering in sheltered spots but there are large areas not out yet.  Too wet for them today I would think.

----------


## Bumble

> The sycamore which has been flowering for three weeks is alongside a horse chestnut which has also been in flower for a week or two.


You're lucky. Here, in the frozen south, neither sycamore nor horse chestnut are close to flowering

----------


## Rosie

Nor here.  I just noticed that my dandelions have just come out today although they have been around for over a week just half a mile down the road.

Rosie

----------


## gavin

I think that the sycamores are going to be spread out over a long season here this year.  There are plenty not yet in flower.

There have been some dandelions out for weeks and more recently huge numbers in the grassy roadside areas around Dundee.  The bees may have 3-4 days of mediocre weather to make something of the forage available, then it is forecast to close in again for perhaps a week.  I'm now making up the first syrup I've made since the autumn ...

----------


## Jon

Mine were flying strongly and I checked the 9 I have at the allotment. Stores were grand and there was evidence of fresh nectar and pollen. I swapped a couple of frames of sealed stores around to balance up the stores. I would say on average there are 10-12 lbs of stores in each colony.
They are still building up and all had a larger brood area than when I last looked properly just over 2 weeks ago.
I put supers on 3 although they would probably have been ok for another week.
the one I requeened after finding a drone laying queen mid march is doing well. I had it dummied down to 5 frames and 4 of them were well covered with brood so I had to give it a couple more. I gave it a frame of emerging brood from a stronger colony two weeks ago which has obviously helped. This year the colonies which have built up more slowly have a definite advantage. Loads of reports of starving bees in England.

----------


## Rosie

Mine will not be doing much flying today!

P1000503.jpgP1000507.jpgP1000487.jpg

The polytunnel is like Noah's ark when this happens. Everyone is saved except the poor bees.  It's a good job they can take it.  By the time the water has stopped rising it will be another 2 inches higher - at least it's always stopped at that point before. :EEK!: 

The rainbow one was taken a couple of weeks ago so I'm hoping to see something similar soon.

Rosie

----------


## Jimbo

Great weather today. The sun has been out and we have had quite high temperatures. It is predicted for another week of the same. Bees were flying and I had to put a super on a couple of the stronger hives

----------


## Jon

Definitely better oop north this past few weeks

----------


## GRIZZLY

Sycamores very slow here - more not out than out.Saw our first Swallow yesterday but they were down in Penarth S.Wales on the 12th of April.They are about a fortnight later than last year.Still having to feed the bees as they are consuming their stores faster than they can replace them.Lots of pollen from the Whins tho'

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## Mellifera Crofter

> The polytunnel is like Noah's ark when this happens.


I enjoyed seeing your ark, Rosie.  Happy animals.
K

----------


## gavin

Just spotted it Rosie - its them almonds, LOL!

If you ever move again you need to choose more wisely next time. Unless you fancy starting a canoeing tourist business.  Canoeing in and out of the beehives?  It would be novel.

I had a sheep in the back garden munching the lawn yesterday.  I tried telling it it was welcome to stay until it had brought the lawn under control but it just hurrumphed slightly and trotted over to the back corner where it knew of a gap in the hedge.  I'll give it a week to trim the grass then block off its way in before the vegetable seeds sprout.  What's the world coming to when there are feral sheep roaming around arable east Perthshire.

We had a flurry of swallows around here over the weekend too.  Still far too cold in the baltic east for much bee foraging.  However there are some late OSR fields just coming into flower, plenty of sycamore left and the hawthorn is going to flower soon so all is not lost.

----------


## Rosie

> If you ever move again you need to choose more wisely next time. Unless you fancy starting a canoeing tourist business.  Canoeing in and out of the beehives?  It would be novel.


You've got a good point there Gavin.  I must admit that when we chose this place we were not aware that we were in a frost pocket with an arctic microclimate nor that the river floods whenever we get torrential rain.  However it has its advantages if you are trying to breed native bees because softies just don't survive or produce honey.  I've got my winter survival rate to 95% on about 6kg of stores so they have adapted in just 4 winters.  One of the two I lost was imported from out of county and the other was a case of Marie Celeste so I would guess they were queenless and moved next door, leaving no dead bees or brood but plenty of stores.

Rosie

----------


## Rosie

> I enjoyed seeing your ark, Rosie.  Happy animals.
> K


You're welcome to see them in the flesh if you are ever passing this way.

Rosie

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## Jon

Sure you don't live in Ireland Steve? That scenery is very typical.
What sort of a goat is that? He looks like an Alpine or an Alpine cross.

----------


## Rosie

Jon

I'm definietely between the Berwyn mountains and Snowdonia so I know I'm not in Ireland.  They are 100% Welsh speakers here too if you need further evidence.
That goat is a pygmy cross.  She's not mine nor is the other which is just out of the camera view.  I can't get rid of them because whenever I take them home they reappear next day.  A bit like Gavin's sheep.  Do you fancy a couple of greedy goats that steel ewe nuts?

Rosie

----------


## Feckless Drone

Hi - first post of this beginner, well at start of second season. Any typos are a consequence of the first sting of the season. 

I thought about putting out a bait hive last week then realised that this was hopelessly optimistic. Yesterday, found a small clump of sad looking bees in the garden, right beside where I caught a swarm last year. It could be a small cast with an unmated Q or the remnants of a first swarm and the value has moved on and I've missed out and that's a real downer. I checked the garden and could not see anything else. I would have thought it too early for casts so this latter scenario might be most probable. If I was sure this came from my hive I thought I could treat as an artificial swarm with an additional inconvenient step, ie catching the swarm. But, my garden hive is vigorous with excellent numbers of bees in brood box and in the super (with 8 frames worth of nectar and sealed stores - had to get that in). So, I don't think the swarm originates from this hive but cannot be sure. Anyway did not try the AS approach and those 8 frames of stores will be gone by teatime given the weather today. 

I've poly-nuked the cluster on foundation (as a beginner I am light on comb, did not see a Q) and tried to revive with syrup, some as a spray direct on the bees, so will just leave to see if anything develops. I am not too hopeful given how sorry they looked but I could not just leave them there. However, bait hive is getting set up this week. The poly-nuc model I use has the feeder in a side pocket and in a case like this I wish I could use a rapid feeder rather than rely on the bees seeking the syrup out. I'll leave them for a few days then peek in to see if they are doing anything then decide if more syrup is justified.

Anyone else reporting swarms or Q-cells yet? I am especially keen to hear about Tayside area.

Anyone else have success with a small cluster growing up?  And any comments/advice welcome.

----------


## Jon

Hi FD
Swarms tend to land on the same spot year after year due to traces of queen pheromone so you know where to check first.
How small is your cluster? If it is a cupful of bees they should go into an apidea if there is a queen.
There are often a couple of hundred stragglers left behind after a swarm has departed.
have you checked your hive for queen cells? that should answer your question about where the swarm originated.
It can be quite difficult to estimate colony strength if you are a beginner.
If you have 35,000 bees in a brood box and you lose 10,000 in a prime swarm, would you immediately notice the difference between a box with 25,000 and a box with 35,000 bees. In warm weather a box looks far fuller as the bees cluster more when it gets cooler. One thing you notice after losing a swarm is that a super which was previously full of bees is now almost empty.
New bees could be emerging at a rate of 1500 per day so it only takes a few days after a swarm for a colony to appear full of bees again

----------


## kevboab

Well, still no sign of this cool weather easing up yet. Never got a chance to get to apiary over weekend but glad I popped in today as two were very light when hefted so first feed since last autumn has just been delivered. Plenty pollen going in from girls that still have the winter woollies on. Would love to get into one of my strong colonies and pinch a frame of hatching brood to boost a nuc but its just gonna have to fend for itself me thinks till a decent day arrives.

----------


## gavin

Nice to see you posting FD.  You know where I am if you wish a hand looking into a hive some lunchtime - it is a possibility that it was yours and that the bulk of them returned home.  On the other hand, you already know from last year that you have a source of swarms nearby.

G.

----------


## Neils

An entertaining evening on the one hand pulling swarms out of trees and depressing on the other having lost one of the Nucs and by the sad few stragglers left, by a matter of days  :Frown:   Starvation is the obvious cause, but as it was starting to tip down I've shut them up and will take a closer look on a drier day.  Abundant forage literally feet from the hives, just goes to show that you can never be too sure. Other hives were also very light and have all been given a feed. I'll head up tomorrow morning to give the swarms a bit of syrup to tide them over despite improving weather forecasts over the next few days, they've got some work to do.

Also been impersonating chappie from Countryfile/BKF in taking a sting very close to the giblets!  No more black trousers for me during inspections either.

----------


## gavin

Ahh .... did no-one tell you about black trousers?!

----------


## Neils

I did think, but the clouds were gathering, it was getting late and I did have some notion of trying to have a look at the other hives after hiving the swarm that I knew about. The one we didn't threw a bit of a spanner in the works, just as well I'd taken two complete hives and stands up with me!

Angry, angry bees tonight. The swarms were lovely though.

----------


## Jon

> Ahh .... did no-one tell you about black trousers?!


I always reckoned he was a Goth.

I checked 5 colonies today and they were fine but a friend said his were bad today.

Paraphrasing Bob Marley, a hungry bee is an angry bee.

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## Neils

If I'd gone up at lunch I'd probably have been fine, the hive in question is normally placid as you like, tonight they were still buzzing round me as I tidied up the second swarm a good 30 minutes after I'd closed them up. That was typically hard to get hold of and I managed to break the cluster so was going back every 10 minutes or so to scoop up another mini cluster and put it in the hive. Scooping up handfuls of placid bees while 10-15 madder than Sarah palin bees battered me at the same time was entertaining. The two I found INSIDE my hood luckily came from the swarm but I have no idea how they got there.

----------


## Jon

> but I have no idea how they got there


...planted by Bayer Cropscience!

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## Calum

Caught my first swarm of 2012 at the weekend. A nice one too.
Missed another one - someone else got it, but it was a handful in the middle of a big rose bush, so good luck to them..
I have heard of 5 so far - they are keen to get out!

----------


## Bumble

Temperatures here in the frozen south are hovering around 8C during the day and dropping to between 3C and 5C overnight. There is an almost permanent icy east wind.

The weather's been so dire that our bees have eaten all their early stores and have been getting through syrup at a rate of knots. We've ended up giving fondant because it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. The bees don't seem to mind.

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## gavin

We had three reasonable days this week and so the hives have gone from dangerously light to a fair bit heavier ... however the forecast isn't good for the next fortnight.  Currently 1C out there and falling.

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## Neils

I'm down in Devon, hoping the weather holds out to go visit the Basterfields for a general husbandry course. I did consider ringing uncle Phil to see if he fancied a pint, but figured that probably wouldnt end well.

Never got to May without managing an inspection yet. I've picked up a couple of swarms, but this week I've slapped on more syrup in one day than I've done in my entire time beekeeping because every single hive is light. No doubt the weather will turn next week and I end up with supers tainted with sugar.

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## GRIZZLY

Went thro' all my colonies yesterday.Full of sealed brood,lots of pollen and virtually no stores.Have put feed on all of them as the forecast for the next week is dire.No sign of Q cells yet but have supered them all to give plenty of room.Bees prospering in both types of Polyhives(M.B. and Swienty).Still no sign of local Sycamore coming into leaf and flower,although fully out lower down in town.One  colony decided to turn nasty,so a possible canditate for future re-queening when Q cells appear.My oldest queen is now in her 3rd year and has  wall to wall sealed brood and exceptionally even tempered calm bees.No sign of becomming a drone layer so must have been well mated.Thirty years ago we used to consider the life of a queen to be four to five years and then to requeen her or she would be naturally superceded.Not so it would seem with the modern varietes,it almost seems a requisit to requeen every year or so.How times have changed.No varroa stress then of course and only nosema apis and acarine to contend with.

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## gavin

Do you think that is the reason Grizzly?  It seems odd that bees should become so different - or is it just that the bees were genetically less swarmy then?  If so it should be easy to get back by selection.

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## GRIZZLY

I recon,Gavin,that the old "hedgegrow"mongrels,whilst perhaps a bit more feisty than todays bees were less inclined to swarm so frequently and were on the whole healthier and would stand more stress.I didn't have to feed so lavishly and can't remember losing overwintering stocks.The advent of varroa has changed my beekeeping dramatically with far more emphasis on continuous treatments to keep the mite and acarine under my control to maintain very low levels.We would "fumigate" hives and frames with acetic acid,use fumadil in feeds and folbex strips if we thought that acarine would prove a problem.PDB was used to keep the wax moth out of stored super frames.Now the EEC has outlawed these items and we no longer have an approved treatment for either type of nosema.I'm sure also that O.A. whilst doing no appreciable harm to the bees could have long term implications in the far distant future.Mites are now resistant to the pyrethroids used for their control so a different approach based on amitraz is on the books.What "nasty" will follow when the mites yet again become resistant?.Do you think I've just become "a grumpy old man" or perhaps a cynic?.I recon beekeeping has become a minefield for beginners with so much conflicting information from the" treat" or" dont treat "brigade that simple basic apiary management has become confusing.

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## GRIZZLY

Still the weather interferes with the colony development.Alternate days of hot weather when they fly like mad and bring in lots of pollen etc and icy cold days when they stay indoors and consume what they gathered yesterday.The wind has a real arctic icy bite to it.I'm still having to pile in the feed to keep them going as the queens have been extremely busy with great slabs of brood .Our sycamores are still struggling to come into leaf-I think their flowering will be very late this year compared to last.My fruit trees are in flower but it will be a lottery if we get any fruit due to the overnight frosts.I think its likely that honey yields will be down this year too.Only time will tell as they say.

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## EmsE

It was a lovely morning in Renfrewshire (was as its now raining). All hive entrances were very busy- almost frantic. One hive needed feeding whilst another has a super on and the bees have it almost fillled with uncapped stores (going a lovely amber colour and lovely aroma  :Smile: ). I was thinking of putting on a 2nd super to give them space to hang the nectar, but due to the poor forecast and cool temperatures, I think I'll leave it until next week. They may well need to use what they've put in there.

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## Jon

Lovely day here as well.
I checked 9 colonies and marked and clipped 5 queens. The other 4 were clipped last year.
7 of them have supers on and are nearing full strength.
There is little or nothing in the supers but there are enough stores in the brood boxes to see them through a poor couple of weeks.
Haven't had to feed any yet.
No queen cells either.
I set up the strongest one as a cell raiser by lifting most of the brood above the super and putting the queen in a new brood box with drawn comb back on the floor.
Might graft tomorrow if the weather is decent.
lots of drones in nearly every colony.

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## Bridget

Did a only a quick inspection today as although they were flying the wind was a bit chilly.  I had put on a super a few weeks ago and some sugar syrup , and they are drawing out foundation well and some signs of stores in the super.  Did not attempt a full inspection of the brood box as they were so quiet.  Never seen that, we didn't need the smoke and if we'd been butt naked it would not have mattered.  I've inspected under similar weather conditions but never so quiet though the super was 3/4 full of bees.  Trouble is, as a newbie you see trouble everywhere.  Perhaps they are just happy to be so busy.  I dunno, these bees are a mystery.

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## Bridget

Ps. How do you know if they are storing sugar syrup in the super?

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## Jon

If you are feeding and anything is accumulating in the supers there will be sugar syrup in it.
It is a hard call, as you don't want a big colony which has enough bees to occupy a super to starve.
Little and often is probably the best advice, and fondant would be consumed more slowly than syrup.

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## Bridget

Thanks Jon, I'll make some fondant tomorrow

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## gavin

They can sometimes be really calm in spring.  We had an 'improvers' (essentially second year beekeepers) class at my apiary today.  The bees were lovely, but we never considered going butt naked!  Once upon a time I did have to drop my trousers in the apiary, but not today thankfully.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...in-the-orchard

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## GRIZZLY

Sad about the Apple tree Gavin but it looks as tho.it's got heart rot -common affliction of old fruit trees.Nice early orchid tho'.

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## Neils

Mixed bag for me yesterday but I have finally managed an inspection. Up on the allotment I have one strong hive with a super that's full of sugar, that's not the end of the world though.

I have a swarm that appears to have no queen in it.

I have a full hive that should probably go in a Nuc.

I have a Nuc with a queen and a handful of bees in it that is hanging in there.

On the nature reserve they've essentially had it. They've just dwindled down to about a frame of bees.  I don't honestly know at the moment what's gone wrong with this one, this is the colony that swarmed in march last year and produced the most honey.  They were treated for varroa and show no obvious signs of varroa related disease, no obvious sign of nosema and no dead bees in the hive. I' ll try and get a sample from it to test for nosema but it's the end of the road for them I fear.

For the allotment I'm going back up today, I gave the swarm a test frame of eggs yesterday and while 24 hours might not enough time from that point of view I'm going to go through the frames to make absolutely sure they're queen less, if I'm satisfied that they are then my intention is to requeen them with the queen from the Nuc. I've not discounted that it might be a cast so I'll be taking an apidea up just to give me some more options but these are ligustica so them not having their own queen is no great loss for me and the donor frame comes from a hive I don't really want to raise queens from either, the queen in the Nuc however mated last year and appears "raring to go" just constrained by the number of bees in the Nuc she's also my last chance for a colony I actually want to raise queens from rather than the only option.

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## Neils

Well, we'll see what happens. went through the swarm hive 3 times without seeing any evidence of a queen. If I can find one in an 11 frame packed to the rafters hive I'd like to think I'd have been able to find one in a quiet 4 frame swarm.

The Nuc is no more, the queen is in a cage in the swarm

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## Neils

Today I have mostly been improving the allotment apiary after last week's shenanigans:



We've also repositioned most of the hives that we could so that they point towards the fence and that building rather than out across the allotments.  They haven't quite got the hang of the netting yet and seem content to fly into it rather than over it, but I'm sure they'll get there in the end.

My best hive is coming along nicely:



Only two supers, the third is the empty one that all the hives have. The first super isn't quite full, but it's bursting with bees so it's as much to give them some extra room.

The poly hive which houses the swarm is coming along nicely, I thought this one was queenless so popped in the queen from a Nuc that was too small to really get going, sure enough I found eggs this time but could I find that queen?

Then I spotted this little minx running around: Turns out I can't spot a queen in a 4 frame swarm after all! In my defence she's quite short and fat and for a second I did have to double take to make sure.


And badly marked her.  i'm revising my opinion on clipping after this spring, touch wood I haven't lost a swarm yet this year, but Hive 1 can't be too far off thinking about it.

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## Jimbo

Checked all my colonies today. No queen cells yet but close to swarming in some colonies. If the weather is good next week should get some swarm cells next week. Checking back my records for the last 10 years swarming usually starts about the 21st May so they are on track this year even though it has been cold.

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## Neils

Interesting stuff Jimbo, I'd be a liar if I said I had much of a sense for that kind of timing around these parts at the moment.

And it's nice to be actually talking about bees again.

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## lindsay s

I had to inspect all of my colonies today because it's been three weeks since I was last through them. 
The weather was overcast with a cool easterly wind and not above 11°c. Although the bees were flying they soon got grumpy once the crown boards were removed, so I kept the frame exposure times to the bare minimum. 
My strongest colony has seven frames of brood and needs a super. The other eight colonies have from four to six frames of brood and are short of stores. Three colonies are still being fed small quantities of syrup to help them draw out new foundation. One colony has a high level of chalk brood but the rest are OK. I still need to mark six queens but I will have to wait till it warms up. 
I had plans to move a few colonies to a new apiary about ten miles away for the summer, but that will have to be put on hold for the moment. Overall my bees are well behind for this time of year.

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## Jon

A friend of mine found a colony close to starvation this evening.
We checked colonies at the association apiary this afternoon and they had sufficient stores but this one was on a different site 400' higher up where it is a degree or two colder. The ones at the association apiary were very calm, inspected at 13c but my mate said that the other one was vicious and it is usually very quiet. I have noticed that hungry bees can get very cranky.
Some of mine have got low on stores but I have been moving frames of stores from colonies with plenty to colonies with very little.
Weather is set to improve this week anyway.
The other good news is that I grafted 18 cells yesterday and on checking today 5 were started so at least I am up and running for the 2012 queen rearing season.

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## Bumble

Yesterday we housed a swarm in a home made correx box. They're still there today, so it can't be that badly made. Maybe we'll make some more.




> Weather is set to improve this week anyway.


They're suggesting that it will reach 25C here on Thursday. I'll believe it when it happens.

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## Jon

Correx. You know it makes sense!
My birthday on Thursday so hoping to celebrate with a heatwave.

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## Neils

I think that contrary to popular belief swarms aren't really that fussy, if they're still there at the end of the following day they will be for a while.

Good luck with them, swarms are a mixed bag. I've got some fabulous bees from swarms and also some absolute horrors.

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## Jon

Our queen rearing group meets tonight.
Looking forward to it as the weather is brilliant today and is set fair all this week.
Should get quite a bit of grafting done.

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## Bumble

> I think that contrary to popular belief swarms aren't really that fussy, if they're still there at the end of the following day they will be for a while


No, they aren't as fussy as some suggest, but maybe British mongrels behave differently from the US bees that were studied for swarm and bait hive research.

I think they're quite happy in their new-build des res. It's much more up-market than a slightly crumpled cardboard wine box, waterproofed with a bin bag.

Today, here, has been a gloriously sunny day. The sort of day you really have to spend sitting in a garage whilst a car fails an MOT and then gets fixed!

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## GRIZZLY

Went thro my Newzealand stocks today.All O.K. except one which had swarm cells.I decided to do an artificial swarm and set about finding the queen.Could I find her?,could I heck.I decided to "sieve" her out by shaking all the bees thro' a queen excluder into an empty hive placed on the original stand.A few puffs of smoke and the bees ran down into the brood box.Finally when there were just a few bees left above the excluder I spotted her.She was slim and looking as tho' the bees had starved her to get her ready for swarming.I picked her up ,placed her onto a drawn comb,trapped her with a "crown of thorns" and marked her.I then re-arranged everything so that the queen on her frame of drawn comb was in the bottom box which I filled out with frames of foundation.On went the queen excluder,supers  and finally the old brood box with the brood.I covered them up to allow the nurse bees to re-populate the old brood box.Tomorrow I will split the old brood into neucs and hopefully get a couple of good mated queens later.Despite all the manipulations the bees were still pleasant to work with no aggression towards me.Shows what gentle stocks and nice weather can do to make beekeeping a good experience.

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## Calum

too true... Seems alot of work to do it that way. I tend to just move the hive to one side (break out all the swarm cells except those on one frame) and put a hive with a that frame with 2-3 queen cells on it + a frame of food, filled up with drawn comb... Sorts out the issue without needing to locate the queen...
Needs to be done while the bees are still flying well, so all the flying bees return to the old spot, and the hive that wanted to swarm no longer has the resources to do that (flying bees gone as if they had swarmed, young bees needed to raise whatever brood is still in the hive). Its a good idea to also remove excessive closed brood , or they'll want to swarm again as soon as thats hatched... As I learnt this year... twice...

1 frame closed brood = 3 frames of bees when they hatch.

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## lindsay s

The weather has warmed up here as well. Late this afternoon I opened up a hive found the queen and set about marking her. Like Grizzly I also used a crown of thorns but unfortunately instead of a nice neat dot, the queen ended up with a yellow splodge. I didnt press the crown in hard enough and the queen moved just as I was applying the marking pen. This is not the first time this has happened and I have lost the odd queen in the past because of heavy-handed marking. Hopefully she will be OK and Ill check the hive in a few days. Im not nimble fingered so practising on drones would make no difference to me. Only another five queens left to mark!!!

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## Jon

I used to mark like this but I now prefer the plunger cage. Just steer the queen in using your fingers by laying the cage in front of her. You can then walk away and mark without the bees around you. It is easy to clip as well as she will stick a wing out through the cross wires if you maneuver her gently with the plunger. I think I have all mine marked and clipped now. I have one in a nuc which is marked but I can't remember if I clipped her last year.

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## gavin

I used to use that crown of thorns from Thornes and sometimes had Lindsay's problem.  Gave one of my pair of them to Ma Grizzly in BC and the other one never gets used now. For the last few years I've just picked her up by a wing or sometimes the pair of wings.  Most people have the dexterity to just grab her, easier when she bends over to look into a cell.  That means that it is easier if your queens are behaving normally - so no smoke and gentle handling with no gloves or latex ones.  If you want to trim a wing it ought to be easy to do before you let her go.

Easy to do, needs no equipment so you're not fumbling for small items that were put in one of those safe places that Wraith mentioned, and with the added benefit of impressing watching beginners even more than otherwise. You know it makes sense.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## GRIZZLY

Calum I particularly wanted to find that queen.Previously she had always eluded me so was never marked.She was the only queen that I had never marked so now they are all marked and so much easier to find.

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## Rosie

We saw 20 C today so the bees were going at it like crazy.  Because it's been so awful here we are still in the thick of dandelions and sycamore.  The hawthorn has not yet opened so I am hoping that this late season might just provide another elusive hawthorn flow.  It's about 8 years since I last had hawthorn honey.  I can't remember what it tasted like but I do remember thinking it was good stuff.

Rosie

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## Jon

A week ago in cold weather mine were all over the hawthorn collecting pollen but they seem to be ignoring it now. The sycamore seems to be a big attraction here. If you stand under a tree it sounds like there is a swarm in it.

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## Neils

We're supposed to hit 26 on Friday, time to make up those last few frames and open up a couple of Nucs as bait hives I feel.

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## gavin

Don't hold back.  Do it now, before you go to bed.  The swarms are pinging off the trees up here.

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## Jon

Do you think he could hit the nail on the head at this time of night!

Mine are not making queen cells yet, touch wood. I have found a couple which looked like supersedure attempts.

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## Neils

> Don't hold back.  Do it now, before you go to bed.  The swarms are pinging off the trees up here.


I've got 3 hives made up, with frames ready to go in the back garden still, entrances open just in case. there are 4 current bait hives up on the allotment and we've had two swarms in the 30 minutes when it stopped raining a couple of weeks ago.  I'm expecting it to go bonkers this week but, my one busy hive is ok at the moment. No sign of queen cells last weekend and I was using it to boost a couple of the smaller hives so, touch wood, it's not thinking about it just yet.

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## Neils

We didn't graft today in the end, other chappie decided that he didn't have any hives strong enough to donate brood or bees.

My main hive is now on three supers and looking like it's getting ready to start preparing to swarm.this week there are play cups everywhere, some with eggs, none with larvae. There's still a little bit of chalk brood, but nothing too serious, 5-6 chalkiness in 9 14x12 frames of brood. I took another frame of sealed brood out into one of the smaller colonies and replaced it with comb and removed some drone brood to check for varroa, reassuringly, very few mites on the floor and none found at all in the drone brood. Hopefully the extra space and a box of empty frames to draw out might make them think twice about wanting to swarm. I'll be checking it very carefully on Friday though.

The recipient of the donor brood is now starting to come along nicely and might even be ready for a super next week, the extra bees have allowed the queen to more than double the brood nest (over and above the donated frame). They had a single frame of brood and about 3 frames of bees, this week they're up to four frames of brood and covering 5-6 frames.

The swarm seems to be coming along nicely too, plenty of brood but no sign of the queen I marked last week, lots of eggs on the frames though so I'm assuming she's in there somewhere.

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## Neils

Today I have mostly been rendering wax. I tidied up the apiary yesterday after our fencing escapades last week and part of that was sorting out the solar extractor. I'm not sure whats more annoying, extracting honey or cleaning up wax  :Smile:  

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do with the stuff. Honey comb wax I'm happy to but back into hives, stuff out of the solar extractor which is mainly old brood combs less so.

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## Bridget

Did an inspection on Friday.  Had been worrying about it for day's. It was all rather dull.  Saw nothing much, no queen, no queen cells just some old play caps I think, they were a bit brown, not fresh looking, and no eggs.  We searched hard, the bees were well behaved but couldn't see a single egg.  Some stores frames in brood box did seem a bit light but we were feeding them before the inspection.  There was honey in the super, not capped, and most of the foundation in the supers was drawn out.  It was busy, both supers and brood box, and all seemed quite happy so I think the sun was too bright and we were not looking properly, for the eggs.  Lots of larvae.  Uploading a quick pic of what we think are play caps which were on the bottom of the frame. But not big enough for a queen.
Attachment 1076

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## Neils

When you say you couldn't see eggs, do you mean anywhere in the hive or in the play cups?

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## Bridget

No where in the hive

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## Neils

OK,

The first question as it's in your previous post. How hard were you looking for eggs and is it possible/likely that you simply missed them?

Not seeing eggs or the queen (is she marked?) is not a good sign.

You saw larvae so you know there must have been a queen in there over the last 9 days prior to the inspection as they're not yet sealed.  When was the last inspection prior to that one and did you see her then?

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## beeanne

Agree with Nellie that no queen + no eggs isn't good news. But just now, with a good sized active colony IMO it's more likely that you've missed eggs or a queen cell than that neither are there - not trying to be rude about yr egg-spotting skills or anything! 
But if you'd damaged or killed the queen (or they'd swarmed) then you'd expect to see some sort of attempt at rearing a new queen.

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## Jimbo

If you think the queen is missing and no eggs The may have swarmed and you may have a virgin queen in the box. The way to check is to put a frame with eggs from another colony in and see if queen cells are drawn. If nothing happens then there is still a queen in there

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## Neils

I think before we jump the gun here there is a key line in Bridget's original post: 



> and all seemed quite happy so I think the sun was too bright and we were not looking properly, for the eggs.


Which is why I asked my first question  :Smile: 

I think the first thing Bridget needs to do, assuming that it's possible/likely that she didn't actively establish that there were eggs in the colony is do just that on the next inspection AND preferably find the queen just to make sure.

I agree with beeanne that if the queen had got damaged, killed or the hive had swarmed that Bridget should have seen some evidence for this given that they *were* looking for signs the colony might be intending to swarm.

If you still can't see eggs on the next inspection and especially if you now cannot see larvae either, as they should all now be sealed if the colony is queenless, then I'd start to take that as a more reliable indicator that the queen might not be there rather than us all perhaps getting the wrong end of the stick from a forum post  :Smile:

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## Bridget

Thanks all.  Yes We were looking for eggs along with queen cells and stores etc.
The queen is marked but we didn't see her last time either.  However it's probably been about 5 weeks since we have seen her and lots of larvae so .... The last inspection was about 3 weeks prior.
The brood box and super were both very busy so don't think there could have been a swarm.
Have no other colony so Jimbos suggestion is ruled out.
I think maybe that being so concerned about Queen cells we weren't thorough enough looking for eggs.  I shall do another inspection as soon as I can but it drizzled all day  and the forecast is as bad for the next two so it maybe the weekend before I get a chance.

Is there no one on this forum from this neck of the woods?  Anyone coming on holiday here soon?  Anyone?   :0)

On a different tack, saw a mining ( or is it miner) bee yesterday scurrying down her sandy hole.  Never seen one before.  Didn't know they existed till Mr Wikipedia put me right.

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## Jimbo

Last time I was in your area I noticed beehives in a garden just outside Aviemore which is just down the road from you so there are other beekeepers in your area. You could ask Phil McAnespie to look at the SBA members list to see if there is anybody you could contact for advice.

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## Bridget

Well did another inspection today as it was warm and sunny. The good news is there was stacks of larvae, a lot of it tiny, like 4 days and saw some emerging, so there is a queen in there somewhere, but we still didn't see her.  We are obviously also rubbish at seeing eggs and need new glasses.  Brood box was chockablock with brood and virtually no stores so have given them another brood box.  A bit of a quandary whether to put it over or under the existing one - decided under was more logical.  Were we right?
The super was really heavy and full of bees and every frame bar one had uncapped honey, so added another super as well.  
So today's questions - we saw a few (under 10) larvae in the super, not capped yet.  What's is that about? 

Also some small queen caps but no larvae and not drawn down in the super..
Also larvae in the old queen caps, not sealed, in the brood box.

Perhaps this is because they were so crowded.  Hopefully the extra space will sort that.
Bees fairly quiet in the brood box and angelic in the super.
Thinking of starting my own thread for all these questions".......

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## Neils

> Well did another inspection today as it was warm and sunny. The good news is there was stacks of larvae, a lot of it tiny, like 4 days and saw some emerging, so there is a queen in there somewhere, but we still didn't see her.  We are obviously also rubbish at seeing eggs and need new glasses.  Brood box was chockablock with brood and virtually no stores so have given them another brood box.  A bit of a quandary whether to put it over or under the existing one - decided under was more logical.  Were we right?


Sounds better  :Smile: 
I don't use double brood myself but under the current brood box sounds ok to me. If you think about it bees start at the top and work downwards normally, we just muck things around a bit with supers.

But like I say, I don't use double brood so someone might come along in a minute and tell me I've got it all wrong.



> The super was really heavy and full of bees and every frame bar one had uncapped honey, so added another super as well.  
> So today's questions - we saw a few (under 10) larvae in the super, not capped yet.  What's is that about?


Obvious question to ask is do you have a queen excluder on?

What sort do you use? Framed? Plastic, metal? Is it still in good condition or is it possible that the queen might have got through it?




> Also some small queen caps but no larvae and not drawn down in the super..
> * larvae in the old queen caps, not sealed, in the brood box.*


Larvae in the queen cells?  If so you should think about doing an artificial swarm ASAP.

Giving them space and leaving them to it Is going to result in a swarm. Once you see larvae in the queen cells they mean business.




> Perhaps this is because they were so crowded.  Hopefully the extra space will sort that.
> Bees fairly quiet in the brood box and angelic in the super.
> Thinking of starting my own thread for all these questions".......


Go for it, you're more than welcome to start a new thread and sometimes that might mean you get more replies.

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## gavin

Larvae in the queen cups/cells in the brood chamber?  Oooops - emergency, emergency!  As Nellie says, act ASAP.  You may have a couple of days before you lose a swarm. 

Instead of nadiring another brood box (I'd always add on top myself) use it to do an artificial swarm.  Then, whatever the books say, check the splits a couple of days later then after another 3-4 days or so for additional queen cells in the queen-right half otherwise you may still lose a swarm.

G.

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## The Drone Ranger

> If you think about it bees start at the top and work downwards normally
> 
> .


Hi Nellie 
Bristol? 
is that in Australia then?

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## Neils

Yours don't?

All mine start at the top of the frames, foundation or not and work downwards.  I hate to bring it up, but it's the key principle in the management of Warré hives too, you add new boxes to the bottom.

I don't personally like honey in old brood comb so I stick supers, as the name suggests, on top of the brood.

----------


## Bridget

Yes we have a QE, metal, framed, goog condition. Here is a photo of the larvae in the super and these are obviously newly made.

Attachment 1081


The queen cells were small, not elongated to accommodate a Queen.
Attachment 1082
These look like old and are also not elongated.  Do they extend them as the new queen grows? 

To do an AS you have to find the Queen first, is that right?

Why would they want to swarm when she is obviously laying so well.  Last week I remarked in my notes that she had plenty of room in the brood box for laying.  Today there was hardly any space left.  

 I read on a thread here that Adam put a second brood box below but perhaps he has a different hive set up.

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## Neils

> The queen cells were small, not elongated to accommodate a Queen.
> 
> These look like old and are also not elongated.  Do they extend them as the new queen grows?


Yes.




> To do an AS you have to find the Queen first, is that right?


Basically, yes. You need to know where the queen is. 

See the triangle(s) in the swarm thread. You have to break that triangle and to do that you need to know where the Queen is. 

See also the finding the queen thread. 





> Why would they want to swarm when she is obviously laying so well.  Last week I remarked in my notes that she had plenty of room in the brood box for laying.  *Today there was hardly any space left.* 
> 
>  I read on a thread here that Adam put a second brood box below but perhaps he has a different hive set up.


 You've kind of answered your own question here.

Swarming is of sex for bees. Once they've decided that they're swarming not even a cold shower is going to put them off. No (from the beekeeper) definitely doesn't mean No to the bees. You're past Swarm Control, you're now into Swarm Management/Prevention.

You need to do an artificial swarm.  

You might get away with cutting the queen cells down if you can't get help within the next day or two but it is only buying you time and you need to be planning an artificial swarm. just cutting queen cells down * IS NOT*  swarm control

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## Jon

In the first picture that looks more like a drone cell than a queen cell.

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## gavin

Drone cells, as Jon says, above the queen excluder.  They may be from eggs laid by (unfertilised) workers, though egg-moving is also a possibility.  If they are raised and at right angles to the vertical, they are drone.

On the bottom bar (pointing down) you have one partially developed queen cell and one that looks like a sealed queen cell.  Swarms depart around (even before) sealing time so they may have gone already and if not you should try to stop them this morning!  As I've been finding, some depart a couple of days before sealing especially after you've done an artificial swarm and they're in a hurry to get on with it.  Often you will, however, still find the old queen after the first is sealed in many colonies approaching swarming.  If I remember right, the source you got your bees from have been selling carniolans which do have a reputation to be swarmy.

Timing (days):

Egg Open Sealed
--- ----- --------

3 - 5 - 8

So an egg in a queen cup can give a sealed Q cell and swarm 5 days later.

A colony in hurry can use a 1-2-day (? corrections anyone?) worker larva and have a sealed cell 3-4 days later.

Time to act!  Good luck ...

Gavin

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## Bridget

Thanks all.   Have spoken to the beekeeper who sold me the bees and she suggested doing a Demaree if we still can't find the Queen.  She talked me through it so we are going ahead with that this afternoon when hopefully it will have warmed up a bit.  
Now back to icing the Jubilee cake - its all go around here.

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## Bridget

> Drone cells, as Jon says, above the queen excluder.  They may be from eggs laid by (unfertilised) workers, though egg-moving is also a possibility.  If they are raised and at right angles to the vertical, they are drone.
> 
> On the bottom bar (pointing down) you have one partially developed queen cell and one that looks like a sealed queen cell.  Swarms depart around (even before) sealing time so they may have gone already and if not you should try to stop them this morning!  As I've been finding, some depart a couple of days before sealing especially after you've done an artificial swarm and they're in a hurry to get on with it.  Often you will, however, still find the old queen after the first is sealed in many colonies approaching swarming
> 
> Gavin


What do we do with the drone cells above the QE- remove them?

With queen cells in the second picture I think I wasn't too concerned because the sealed one was not at all elongated enough to accommodate a queen.  In pictures of them they look long and thin and this one is short and stubby.

Once they have decided to go will they still swarm on a cold damp day?

Bridget

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## gavin

After the drones hatch they are likely to fly one day when you lift the crownboard. 

Queen cells can be short and stubby or long and thin - cells of all types can accommodate a viable queen so unless that wasn't a sealed cell but something damaged as you lifted the frame then I think that you have lost or are about to lose a swarm.

Swarms do need some respite from poor weather to go but don't need it to be especially warm and sunny.  Once the sun comes out and you think it is warm enough to open the hives the swarm could be off.

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## gavin

A Demaree could be a good idea if you can provide some unused comb for the bottom box, one frame of open brood and stores, other empty frames or foundation, and shake off all the bees into that box.  The rest of it upstairs having removed all queen cells (including any wee ones tucked half out of sight) and all queen cups with eggs in.  It is a bit invasive though, and having a marked queen and the ability to find her when you need to is better.

G.

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## Bridget

What I learnt today ...... You may think you have 2 queen cells but if you do a PROPER inspection and clear all the bees off all the frames you might find you have 22 queen cells.
I saw eggs today but still no Queen so we did a Demaree and now will wait and see.  I

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## The Drone Ranger

> Yours don't?
> 
> All mine start at the top of the frames, foundation or not and work downwards.  I hate to bring it up, but it's the key principle in the management of Warré hives too, you add new boxes to the bottom.
> 
> I don't personally like honey in old brood comb so I stick supers, as the name suggests, on top of the brood.


Usually they  like going up
thats why you need a queen excluder
If they went down you wouldn't need to bother  :Smile:

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## Neils

I feel we're probably arguing semantics here, but if you dropped a package of bees into a double brood hive (or two supers for that matter) you'd expect them to draw combs in the lower box first and work up from there?

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## chris

> I feel we're probably arguing semantics here,


I don’t think it’s just a problem of semantics.
I can think of 3 elements that will govern what the bees will do:

1)They will normally build where space is available;
2)They normally prefer to store honey as far as possible from the entrance;
3) The speed of development of the brood nest.

Take a simple brood box. The bees go to the top and build comb downwards. The honey is stored in arcs above the brood, and on outer frames. When the hive is full, if the beekeeper does nothing, either the queen slows down laying or the bees swarm. If the beekeeper adds a super, the bees go up to the top of the super and build downwards. If there is no foundation to dictate cell size, then the cells in the super will be larger than normal brood cells because the bees generally build bigger cells to store honey. The queen who has no room in the brood box goes up and lays in the super, but with the larger cells she lays drone eggs. There is the beginning of the rugby ball top of a nest, but as room becomes available again in the brood box, she goes back down and continues her egg laying there, the drones come out, and the super is used for the honey, stored at the top. The nest doesn’t move upwards. 
If instead of adding a super the beekeeper adds a box underneath, as with a Warré, then the bees continue to build downwards, the brood nest gradually follows the building direction and descends, leaving space at the top where the bees store the honey. On a big flow, the brood nest cannot move down quickly enough to leave enough space for the incoming nectar which the bees want to put above the brood nest and the Warré can then become the swarm machine that certain beekeepers criticise. In this case, if the beekeeper who has been nadiring also adds a super, the brood nest can continue to move downwards and at the same time the bees can use the super up above for the extra honey. In fact they go up to build down and go down to build down at the same time.
 So, I would say that the bees always start by going to the highest place available and then build downwards. Sometimes they go up to do this and sometimes they go down to do it, depending on what the beekeeper gives them.
But the brood nest *wants* to go downwards.

I’d be interested to know what happens in a case where the entrance is at the top. Would the bees even choose such a hive possibility?

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## GRIZZLY

Bees will use a top entrance.I've  taken bees from fallen trees where the centre has been completely rotten and they gained entrance to the nest via a knot hole adjacent to the top of the nest.The bees hung their combs from just under the entrance hole and these went downward for about 2 1/2 feet.I've also seen photographs of some American hives with top entrances.

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## GRIZZLY

Collected a lovely swarm last night.Flew into the lower branches of a Budlia,just at head height.Must be one of the easiest I've ever collected.Hived them when it was almost dark then fed them  heavily this morning.They just about filled a National brood box.The parent colony was the last on my list for examination and got delayed by a couple of days due to inclement weather.They must have started Q.cells the day after my last inspection.Nothing lost tho' cos' they will produce a nice young Queen which will hopefully successfully mate well,however time will tell.

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## Adam

I had two calls yesterday about two swarms in a nearby village. The same village where a sold nuc went to a month ago and the new beekeeper also bought a nuc from elsewhere. A conincidence surely?

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## chris

A couple of weeks ago we had a late hard frost. I've been checking lots of the lime today. No flowers anywhere, no bractée. Gonna be no lime honey, which is paramount to saying there'll only be honey for the bees this year  :Mad: .

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## HJBee

Same happened with Horse Chestnut in my Village.

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## voytech104

How to you know what bees are feeding on in the exact moment or day? It is quite hard for me to follow my bees - I gave up after getting through the fence and falling over a ditch  :Wink: 


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## Jon

You can look at the colour of the pollen as the bees enter the hive and compare the colour to what is in flower at certain times of the year. Kirk's guide to pollen loads of the honey bee is probably the best known pollen book.

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## gavin

Also the amount and position of pollen on the body of the bee, the size of the pollen loads, and .... great fun this one, interpreting their waggle dances.  Best seen earlier in the day before they all learn where to go.  One second per km, angle wrt the sun, you know the thing.

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## Neils

If you want to be really anal about it I'll post the formula for working out the distance, the first second of dancing is far more precise about distance than subsequent seconds if memory serves me right.

Making the most of a break in the rain and just finished my inspections. You can tell the flows stopped! Good opportunity to really see which colonies are good candidates for queen rearing. I might get a chance to make up some grafts yet!

Fed the brood sides of my AS after a week of rain the 14x12 looks like they've had a drone massacre and there wasn't a lot of food in evidence.

Reduced them back down to a single sealed queen cell.

The swarm I picked up a few weeks back seems to be expanding nicely but after consistent drops of 30+ mites, some dwv in evidence and no drone brood yet I've given them an apiguard tray as they're not likely to need a super this year. I'll see what happens over the course of the first tray and take it from there.

Just watching a couple of bees taking water from some compost filled plant pots on the plot next door.

Still no proper queen rearing on the go, but I now have three queen right hives, two with supers, one with honey. A Nuc and a 14x12 rearing new queens. The second hive looks like its building up nicely to start bringing in some nectar.

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## Bumble

> I'll post the formula for working out the distance


Yes please.  :Smile: 

Note I removed the anal bit!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Yes please. 
> 
> Note I removed the anal bit!


I found myself in a bee dance the other day when one got down the back of my trousers fortunately didn't make as far as the anal bit but still hurt

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## Neils

Sometimes you don't realise what you've got. I spotted this while going back through some of the clips I took trying to deal with the swarm earlier today:




As for the formula:

(1800*(Duration^1.9)/(1+(1.3*(Duration^0.9))))

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## Bumble

> As for the formula:
> 
> (1800*(Duration^1.9)/(1+(1.3*(Duration^0.9))))


Maybe I shouldn't have asked. I'm not sure what ^ means.  :Embarrassment:

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## Neils

It's exponentiation. i.e. 5^3 (I can't super script the font which is how it more normally appears) is 5x5x5 or 125.

If you were to paste that into, for example, excel or numbers for the Mac users as a function (put a = then paste the formula) and replace 'duration' with a cell reference containing the duration in seconds it will convert to a distance of meters.

i.e. if you pasted in cell "B2" in Excel


```
=(1800*(A2^1.9)/(1+(1.3*(A2^0.9))))
```

And dragged it down, you'd get something along the lines of:



```
Duration    Distance
-------------------------
0.5         284.2644483
1           782.6086957
1.5         1353.890294
2           1960.905288
2.5         2588.612088
3           3229.585765
3.5         3879.677848
4           4536.36295
4.5         5198.003234
5           5863.483299
5.5         6532.013396
6           7203.016304
6.5         7876.058834
7           8550.808538
7.5         9227.005349
8           9904.44241
8.5         10582.95278
9           11262.39999
9.5         11942.67121
10          12623.67218
```

You don't have to use half second intervals of course, you can be as precise as you like, off the top of my head I can't remember to what degree the bees use, but I do know that it's believed they'll "watch" a number of dance circuits and essentially use the average figure for both distance and bearing.

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## Bumble

Oh! Spreadsheets.  :Embarrassment:

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## Neils

A decent calculator should be able to do exponent functions for you  :Smile:   I'm certainly not good enough at maths to do it on my own let alone explain how the formula works  :Big Grin:

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## voytech104

I need to brag a little  :Wink: 
It took me 2.5 hours but satisfaction is mine  :Wink: 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1339524846.412823.jpg


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## gavin

Beautiful.  And distinctive, two good qualities in a hive.

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## Neils

Worth Bragging about I think. Nice Job.

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## HJBee

Did you really do this all from scratch? Impressive!

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## voytech104

Yes I did  :Wink: 

Next some painting tomorrow, roofs, crown boards and floors. Need to work out cutting list. 


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## Calum

Respect, looks really cool, hope it is light too! Anyone wanting plans for an easy build (although there are much easier versions of the floor) just adjust for your frame length and depth. Based on a Zander 477 mm x 220 mm frame for ten frames width (you can leave that the same if you like). I'd not bother with the last page - a feeding casette is a faf and not really as useful as an extra magazine..
The easiest floor for varroa control is a u shape nailed to a n shape with a mesh sandwiched inbetween if you get my drift..

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## voytech104

It is not too bad - i'll try to weigh those brood boxes tomorrow. 

Question regarding adding second brood box:

I have strong colony with 12 frames full in brood box. 1 super have had 9 frames drawn and 80% full of honey. I have added 2nd super - rearranged frames so I have 4 frames of honey in super above brood box and 4 frames of empty foundation in the middle. In 2nd super I have another 5 frames of honey and 5 frames of empty foundation. 
- How can I add second brood box? 
- Are all those frames wont be spread out too much? (i'm thinking about the temperature).

i hope that I make some sense  :Wink: 



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## Calum

super frames have a different height than your brood frames?
First I would have personally just added the second super empty under the upper (full) one.
The bees will and to clear space in the lower super to make space for the queen to lay in - they dont know she can't, so will be employed shifting honey about instead of gathering it. I figure..

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## voytech104

Ok - so I'll shift all full supers to the top.

Then I'll add second brood box on top  of 1st.

I'll shift 4 frames of brood one up, and put foundation in. Is it ok?

Wont it affect temperature too much? Do they need certain temperature to evaporate water from honey in super?




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## Calum

if the brood box looks like this with plenty of closed brood (1 frame closed brood = 3frames bees when hatched) 
 and not like this so much 
then should be fine

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## Jon

Beautiful looking hive compared to some of my correx monstrosities!

Just back in from another evening with a beginner group and some of the queen rearing group.
We got another 17 cells into apideas and 4 more cells went off to requeen colonies.

20 more will be ready for Apideas on Saturday.

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## Calum

cant write to u Jon your inbox is full...

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## Jon

cleared now

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## GRIZZLY

Took the roof off a recently hived swarm to check the level of feed.They had emptied the feed and were busy drawing comb.The heat coming off the bees thro' the holes in the crown board is quite amazing.Will take a  thermometer up with me to check what temperature they have risen to.Whats the optimum temperature for wax and cell building ?.

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## Neils

Between 33 and 36 degrees C I believe.

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## chris

Rather too many scout bees looking at my chimney this morning. I've put 2 bait hives (a 5 frame nuc and a 10 frame hive) nearby and that is also receiving lots of visitors.Fingers crossed. Or should I spray some insecticide up the chimney? Joke joke joke..........................

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## Jon

If the scouts are from your own bees you could get the scissors out and find your queen.
Might be a good time to light a smokey fire.

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## chris

No, they're coming from down the valley, so are either feral or René's. Can't light a fire as I know that chimney is full of old comb and so I'll be smoked out before the bees.And I'd never stick my head in one of René's hives. :Frown: 
 Do you think scouts would try to protect a prospective home? I've been watching what looked like guard bee behaviour, with a little *in-fighting*.

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## Trog

I was alerted to a swarm yesterday by an enquiring bee at the kitchen window ... and found it in the blackthorn by the apiary.  Safely hived.  Had hoped to check hives this morning but very cold.  Sun's out now so will take a look after lunch maybe.

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## Wraith

My extractor has arrived very happy  :Big Grin:   I have all new queens on order. And I now have a second farmer happy to have bees. So Now have two sites.

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## drumgerry

Nice extractor!  My bees are currently self-extracting each cell of honey and consuming it.

ps - I have the same mash tun as you!  Brewing a hefe in the next couple of weeks.

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## Wraith

Just done 22 gallon on Sunday and need to brew again next weekend.  :Smile:  I'm having difficulties with mine not wanting to stay in the hives and not capping the supers

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## drumgerry

That's quite a brew length!  (oo er)  Just  a cornys-worth for me.  Takes me long enough to get through that.  All thoughts of swarming I think are on the back burner with mine and looking them today a couple of colonies might even need fed if the weather doesn't pick up.

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## Wraith

That was 4 brews in 13hrs all seperate 25l batches

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## drumgerry

Your system must be pretty slick  - it takes me most of a day to do one batch!

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## Wraith

Are you on www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk by any chance?

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## drumgerry

Used to post a little on jimsbeerkit but I think I may be a lurking member of a few of the forums.

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## Wraith

Here's a link to the brewday thread http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/vi...p?f=21&t=26005

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## Jon

Put another 10 cells into apideas this morning.
I checked grafts I did on Thursday into two cell raisers and there are a good number started, over 25, maybe a few more.

I did another 45 grafts this afternoon in the rain into another two colonies so hopefully will get a few more started from these.

We have 44 apideas with virgin queens set out on stands at the association site and another 10 with cells due to hatch on Monday.

apideas-minnowburn.jpg

These are all in the shade of a huge lime tree.

Edit
One of the group members put more photos on Flic.kr

http://flic.kr/p/cfaNB1

http://flic.kr/p/cfah8j

http://flic.kr/p/cf9QQq

Only one of those apideas is mine and that has the virgin which I retrieved from a cell raiser colony after it pulled down 7 cells from a cell bar. I have 20 of my own apideas set out in my garden and at my allotment.
My garden is 1.3 miles from the drone colonies at the association site and 2.6 miles from the allotment where I have 9 more colonies producing drones. Would be great to get an area of a few square miles completely saturated with AMM drones.

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## Neils

Another carrier bag of sugar bought as we're back to solid rain again and there's another two hives now starting to run out of food. The local shopkeepers think I'm mad.

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## gavin

> Another carrier bag of sugar bought ....


You need some of those frugal Celtic queens Jon is raising by the barrow-load.

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## Jon

None mated yet Gav!
I put a kilo of fondant on a few last week but I extracted about 10 supers at the start of June.
Always risky to extract early but if the weather is bad through July there will be no honey crop this year.

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## Neils

> You need some of those frugal Celtic queens Jon is raising by the barrow-load.


Doubt it would make much difference, the only hive that came out of winter at full strength has more than enough food. The artificial swarms have been on syrup for two weeks. The swarm will probably last another week before it needs feeding because I took a frame of stores out of it to make up the Nuc when the weather was nice. The hive I'm going to feed tomorrow was an over wintered Nuc that almost starved in April and had just expanded up enough to warrant a super so it's now a busy hive that has little in the way of stores.

I don't think I've done anything wrong and nor have the bees for that matter. We get two days of dry followed by 5-6 days of constant rain so I'm not surprised that I'm having to feed the poor buggers.

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## HJBee

Good luck for the weekend with this
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1340347902.128656.jpg

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## Bridget

Despite a dire forecast we had a great day.  Out side all day with the grandsons ( best place for them) building bonfires, cycling, barbecue and 5 year old spent 2 hours "butt naked", his words, crawling up and down the burn.  No time to worry about bees.  Who says we don't have nice weather.

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## voytech104

Haha. What did I do in the Apiary today?
Went in my jeans with trendy hole on my leg, without smoke.
Last Sunday I gave them frame of eggs to see if they will start QC (queen was not laying for 3 weeks an. i thought there is no queen there.)
They sealed brood etc. no new fresh eggs so there is queen not mated yet though.
Problem is that I annoyed them so much that I have had them all over me... After 4 stings in my legs and one in stomach I started walking away. Killed probably 20 and been stung 4 more times...  Felt them crawling up my trousers, under my veil, under my tshirt... Nightmare come true  :Wink:  after 5 minutes i needed to come back to close the hive... They were really p.$$ed... Stung me again, i managed to close them and go to my car to kill all the remaining...
After another 5 minutes I found myself with 12 stings in total, swollen on my legs, heavy rash on arms, huge swollen belly... Quickly while I could I rushed to nearby hospital..
And I did make it - just to say to all beginners to suit up and never go to your bees in patchy trousers without smoke  :Wink: 


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## Jon

LOL
You sure the problem was the trousers? Could have been sub lethal effects of neonicotinoids making you disorientated or stupefying you in some way!
Did you drive past any fields of oil seed rape on the way to the apiary or glance at something predominantly yellow like the sun or a banana?
The smaller the dose, the greater the effect apparently. Quixotic stuff.
You are lucky to be alive. Did you get any photos?

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## voytech104

Plenty of photos. Most obscene though so cannot be posted here  :Wink: 
A&E was buzzing when I came over. They had adrenaline handy in case my throat closed (not needed thankfully). 
I must say after being stung the worst thing was that i kept thinking "i need to go back and close them up - it will rain soon"... 
Also - all bees at my parents are quite calm - i helped them with inspection without gloves and it was fine. I would not go near mine without it... That just shows you how important breeding new queens from properly selected line is...


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## GRIZZLY

What's the moral of this story ?.

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## Jon

Don't be a slave to fashion!

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## Trog

Two queens nicely mated here and one at the assoc apiary.  Always nice when things go smoothly!

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## Jon

Hi Trog. After a 3 week wait I now have about a dozen laying. I think most of them flew and mated on Tuesday or Wednesday last week.
Too early to tell if they are well mated or not.

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## Adam

I've got a fair few queens laying now after a 3 day period of reasonable weather a week ago. It's all a month or more later than last year. There is one spot from where queens consistently fail to mate or disappear without mating.  :Frown:  Same thing happened last year so that place will have no more mini-nucs from now on. The spot faces NW and gets plenty of late afternoon sun.

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## Jon

I have 8 laying in apideas in my front garden which are set out under a couple of fruit trees.
Be interesting to see what drones those ones have encountered. I have a couple of colonies in the back garden so they may well have produced a lot of them. The association apiary is just over a mile away and I have a few colonies there as well.
Seems to be a good enough spot for queens to fly and mate.
Adam, I suspect you are right that there are good spots and bad spots for apideas. Maybe into ley line territory here.

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## Neils

So I'm sat in the BRI having just taken a bunch of steroids and antihistamines to try and stop the reaction I'm having to a sting.

Ho hum. Time to start thinking seriously about how I manage this and keep bees.

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## Trog

Maybe we should have a sting thread - seems like more of us are reacting to stings when we didn't before.  Might be useful to share information.  Oh, and sympathetic thoughts in your direction, Nellie!

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## Rosie

Presumably BRI is Bristol Royal Infirmary.  Sorry to hear this Nellie and hope you can find some way round the problem.

Rosie

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## chris

Really sorry to hear that Nellie.You need to take a bit of time, step back and look coldly at things. After my bad attack last year, it took me a long time to go back to the bees, and my enthusiasm is still not what it was.But I've been very careful, and haven't been stung since.Funny, I was kept in the unit under observation, and around 7 in the evening I was told I could leave in a couple of hours. I phoned my wife to tell (nicely ask) her to pick me up around ten. I forgot that the French work a 24hr. clock.So at 11 I'm sitting on a park bench with no phone, no money, no bank card, and she's fast asleep and going to pick me up at 10 the next morning............but I was still alive.

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## Neils

Well they sent me home with a course of antihistamines and some pretty vague advice. All things considered it was a fairly mild reaction, but I felt it was better to be safe. I'm more annoyed that I'm going to lose a swarm tomorrow.

"wear thicker gloves" was pretty much the limit of their advice.

----------


## Jimbo

For the first time in years I got 2 stings today on my face. I am still trying to work it out how the bees got inside my suit. Lucky for me I have been taking an antihistimine tablet daily for the last month as I have discovered I have mild hayfever. One sting was on the top lip and for a few hours it looked as though I had a trout pout. This would not bother me usually but I have an important meeting at work tomorrow and did not want to turn up looking like the elephant man. The worst bit was I had to go back into the hive again to find the queen as there were queens cells present and I had to deal with it.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> For the first time in years I got 2 stings today on my face. I am still trying to work it out how the bees got inside my suit. ...


The zip where the two ends meet?  On my BJ Sheriff the two ends meet without a gap, but on my MB jacket they overlap and I have to stuff that tiny open area with a piece of sponge - or else ...

----------


## GRIZZLY

I used to regularly get bees in my veil-didn't get stung tho'.I tried in vain to find the hole and then finaly found a 1/4 inch dia hole where the gauze was stiched into the cloth part of the hat.I did a field repair by rolling up a small piece of the hessian smoker fuel from my tool box and plugged the hole.NO MORE wandering bees inside the veil.Did a permanent repair when I got home by glueing a small patch over the hole.I think the veil got a slight snag from a Hawthorn bush when retrieving a swarm one time.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Quick check thro' the bees today,No stores in the supers-they've taken what was in there due to the bad weather of the past week or so.will have to think of feeding to maintain the colonies if the weather doesn't get any better.I recon we'll be lucky to get a surplus this season.There's lots of clover about but they can't get at it and anyway it wont secrete nectar if the temperature doesn't climb a bit.

----------


## Bridget

Temps high (relatively) this evening - muggy, some rain earlier and 15 degrees at 9.30 pm and a few bees still flying.  So what temp do you think clover will secrete nectar?

----------


## GRIZZLY

With clover it's a combination of temperature and humidity.I've had bees in the past stuck in the middle of a clover field and not got a drop in the supers because despite the high temperature the humidity was low so no secretion from the nectaries.

----------


## Bridget

According to my weather app humidity today is between 75 and 85%.  I can smell the clover in the field and have seen a few bees on it though one of the bushes by the house is really buzzing.  Weather good here for the next two days and then I go on holiday for 12 days.  Booked before I realised that beekeepers shouldn't go on holiday in July!  Any thing I should be doing before I go?

----------


## Neils

See if you can arrange for a friend to give your hives a once over while you're away if you think they might yet be thinking about swarming and clip your queens!  :Big Grin: 

Edit: actually, with the weather as it is right now, that they have enough food to last them while you're away is probably worth checking too!

----------


## Bridget

> See if you can arrange for a friend to give your hives a once over while you're away if you think they might yet be thinking about swarming and clip your queens! 
> 
> Edit: actually, with the weather as it is right now, that they have enough food to last them while you're away is probably worth checking too!


Just checked them and the super is pretty much full of uncapped honey.  The frames were pretty empty last week so they have refilled them. They will therefore be fine for stores I think. I have given the new hive some more syrup.  As for your other suggestions clipping bee wings is way above my pay grade and we have no bee mates so it will be fingers crossed.  As the two hives are the result of a Demaree  I'm hoping their ideas of swarming have passed.  And then it's fingers crossed. 😔

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> For the first time in years I got 2 stings today on my face. I am still trying to work it out how the bees got inside my suit. Lucky for me I have been taking an antihistimine tablet daily for the last month as I have discovered I have mild hayfever. One sting was on the top lip and for a few hours it looked as though I had a trout pout. This would not bother me usually but I have an important meeting at work tomorrow and did not want to turn up looking like the elephant man. The worst bit was I had to go back into the hive again to find the queen as there were queens cells present and I had to deal with it.


Good for the arthritis though, so you should be able to tap dance into the meeting distracting their attention  :Smile:

----------


## GRIZZLY

Had a strange "pseudo" swarm yesterday.Bees came pouring from the entrances of three separate hives,formed a dense cloud which went roaring around overhead then subsided and all went back into their respective hives where they continued with their usual foraging flights.Two of these hives had swarmed earlier.Queen mating attempt perhaps? Any ideas?.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Found a "balled" queen this morning outside a hive.I recon this was what all the excitement was about yesterday.I guess one of the virgin queens decided on a mating flight and got mixed up in the confusion and missed its hive of origine,got muggud by strange bees and killed.So could have a queenless colony somewhere.As usual the weather has turned too wet for a safe examination,so will have to postpone it for a while.

----------


## Trog

Picked up a big swarm on the edge of the apiary this afternoon.  Shouldn't be one of ours as we checked them all a couple of days ago.  Still, we got it, and that's what matters!

----------


## Neils

Dodged the rain to sort out a hive full of queen cells that I couldn't deal with after last weeks shenanigans and found a little swarm living in our kit stack that we rehoused into a Nuc.  Made up 3 apideas from the queen cells, figure any hive that's still good natured open in the rain is worth taking queens from.

----------


## Trog

Kit stacks (the rougher the better) seem to win over carefully-placed bait hives; we had the same and picked up a pure AMM swarm that has been parent to many a nuc over the last few years since it arrived!

How are your stings, Nellie?

----------


## Neils

Sun is out, swarm central round here at the moment. Been to two swarms already today.

No new stings as yet so no idea how I'm doing on that front. Not been in the horrible hive.

----------


## Jon

Leaving shortly and will be away almost 3 weeks.
Swarm talk makes me nervous although my queens are clipped so if they hold off from starting cells for at least a week I should be ok.
I have only had one start to make swarm preparations so far this year.
Have to hope they are not all waiting until July.

----------


## Trog

Our local AMMs seem to favour July, Jon  :Wink:

----------


## Neils

We had a bee "bimble" today. 5-6 apiaries out of the 138 ticked off the list. In theory there weren't inspections going on. In practice, in addition to the swarms, other shenanigans ensued.  I'm not sure if it's considered wise for the guy who may or may not be allerigic to bee to be putting his hands into beehives without gloves, but sometimes you just can't help yourself.

We had the new beekeeper trying to hive their bees with a duff hive that didnt fit together and the inevitable queen cell in the Nuc, inspected on Friday and given a clean bill of health by an ex bee inspector.  The two minute move the hive that turned into a twenty minute manipulation and the restocking of my apideas with queen cells and much elderflower champagne consumed.

I enjoy these, swarms aside I'm not a great fan of opening up hives during them but it's always interesting to see what other people are doing with their bees.  I also got a chance to get more acquainted with one of our new members, an apiarculturist by trade from Iraq.

----------


## Calum

Spammers have invaded the blog section.
But their remedies are herbal - so they are ok, ie not working for Monsanto (I'm assuming herbal organic).

----------


## Jon

> Our local AMMs seem to favour July, Jon


Not what I want to hear!!

----------


## gavin

> Spammers have invaded the blog section.
> But their remedies are herbal - so they are ok, ie not working for Monsanto (I'm assuming herbal organic).


Thanks for reporting them Calum.  I've been off on foreign travels with very limited access to the internet and (hadn't realised this) my little helpers didn't have the necessary permissions to deal with them in the Blog section.  I've had a good rummage in the workings under the bonnet and worked out how to remedy that, so we should now have more hands available to remove these pests more quickly.

----------


## Neils

I did as much limitation as I could at the time. I didn't really want to broadcast that I couldn't do anything in the blog section  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

Your powers, young man, are now near-infinite!

----------


## Calum

okkkkk, that picture along with the drunken childrens party clown will haunt my nightmares...

----------


## Neils

well look at that. Advacadavra! and the spam entry was gone. It works!

----------


## gavin

Excellent.

In this case the nasty person used this Arizona IP address to register 

64.120.45.126

General IP Information
IP:    64.120.45.126
Decimal:    1081617790
Hostname:    64.120.45.126.ubiquityservers.com
ISP:    Nobis Technology Group, LLC
Organization:    Nobis Technology Group, LLC
Services:    None detected
Type:    Corporate
Assignment:    Static IP
Blacklist:    
Geolocation Information
Country:    United States us flag
State/Region:    Arizona
City:    Phoenix
Latitude:    33.6748
Longitude:    -111.9519
Area Code:    480
Postal Code:    85054

but this was showing while he was online, an address in California.

50.117.73.190

General IP Information
IP:    50.117.73.190
Decimal:    846547390
Hostname:    50.117.73.190
ISP:    EGIHosting
Organization:    Merc Netlist
Services:    None detected
Type:    Corporate
Assignment:    Static IP
Blacklist:    
Geolocation Information
Country:    United States us flag
State/Region:    California
City:    San Jose
Latitude:    37.3338
Longitude:    -121.8915
Area Code:    408
Postal Code:    95113

Should we now hunt him/her down and set the authorities on them?  I'd vote for the second one being his 'home' IP address although it does say that it is corporate.  His SBAi account, and the permission to get on here for these IP addresses are history.

Hackers and spammers *can* be really stupid.  There was one guy who brought down the forum.  Combining clues from his IP address and his email address, I knew his name, exactly where he lived, which school he went to (yup, just a schoolkid), what his brother, sister and mother were called, even saw some of them on his open Facebook page.  However he was contrite, so I left him in peace.

----------


## chris

> If the beekeeper adds a super, the bees go up to the top of the super and build downwards.


post #454

 :Embarrassment:  :Embarrassment: 

Ahem. Just back from an inspection. On a 10 frame brood box I had added a 9 frame super last week. The super frames were all new, and had just a thin line of wax under their top bar. The bees had just built up from the tops of the broodbox frames, in between the super frames. Their construction had reached about a third of the way up before being attached to the super frames in a way only to be understood by a good grasp of bee logic.

Conclusion: bees do what they want.

----------


## gavin

Could this differ according to season?  In spring they are in expansive mood and will happily bridge across large gaps supplied by the beekeeper, 'knowing' that they should have the resources to fill that gap with winter stores.  In late summer here they turn to infilling around and immediately above the shrinking brood nest in preparation for winter.  Often much of our heather honey crop ends up there.

I have a double brood box colony with two intervening supers, in a Demaree arrangement for queen cell raising.  It has been left alone for about a month and now has the top brood box mostly filled with honey and the supers below it with empty drawn comb.  A month from now it would be putting honey in the bottom brood box and maybe the first super above it.

----------


## HJBee

Just on the way back to Glasgow from Ayrshire & a CABA day out to Auchincruive. Great day with quite a few Associations represented. Didn't know there was male & female OSR, which we were shown on a field where it had been planted in alternate rows for seed production.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1342373319.188002.jpg

----------


## Neils

Still no new stings to report.

Both splits that I made are now superseding which given the weather is no great suprise, that they got mated queens at all is a big surprise in many respects. Horrible hive has calmed down a bit, I'm wondering whether clearing all the overgrowth from the hive entrance has had anything to do with them being far less inclined to go at whoever opens them up. They're still far from nice bees to go into but they don't worry me quite as much as they did.

----------


## EmsE

> Hi Emse.
> I have about half on solid floors and half on open mesh floors and I am damned if I can notice much difference. If anything the ones on the solid floors build up a wee bit faster in spring. You get better ventilation with the OMF but better heat retention with the solid floor so a case of swings and roundabouts. Mine were all flying well this weekend. Stacks of pollen coming in.


Hi Jon,

What puts me off the solid floors is the amount of soggy debris on the floorboards in the spring and the fact that the floorboards themselves are waterlogged. I did make sure that the hives with solid floors were tilted forwards slightly to allow any build up of water to run out. This can't be healthy for the bees and felt that the OMF's, which the bees were able to keep clean themselves were better.

I have to say that the varroa floors I use ( the budget ones from thornes) I wasn't keen on either. I'm sure one of the reasons for my zero varroa count is probably due to the varroa being blown away once they drop, which really makes any attempt at monitoring quite pointless. What I do want to try is adapting the solid floor to an open mesh with the adapter you can get in thornes (I will try and make one rather than buy one though). This would allow the small debris to fall away from the bees, improve the ventilation, but not be quite as breezy as the OMF's I currently have.

----------


## Jon

Hi Emse
I bought a sheet of 8 foot by 4 foot mesh of the correct gauge for about 15 quid.
This is enough to make 10 floors with more stuff left over for nuc floors.
It is easy enough to cut with an angle grinder.

I screw together 4 pieces of scrap timber to make an 18 1/8 base and then tack on the mesh.
You can make a bee space frame above the floor with correx or wooden battens.
I dont have a decent picture but you can see one in use here.

Minnowburn queen rearing1.jpg

That's me with the monkey hat on.

I agree that counting mites on the floor is very inaccurate. I rarely bother.
I have never had a major varroa problem but I am very careful about treating at the right time and I do a winter treatment of Oxalic acid as well.

----------


## Bridget

Disaster.  Back from hols and the strong hive looking pretty quiet.  Pissing with rain so no inspection till today.  Started off with the small hive, result of a Demaree in early June.  Jumping with bees, full of honey, in the brood box, and not a single egg, larvae and a minute area of sealed brood .  did the virgin queen not make it back from the mating flight or is she about to start laying?  It's a bit tight but maybe as there are worker bees polishing cells. 
Hive major - obviously swarmed. About 75% less bees, no eggs, no larvae etc etc and bursting with honey in brood box and quite a bit in the super.  
So advised to look for a queen cell and transfer to hive minor in case the virgin didn't make it back.  Found about 10 empty queen cells in hive major .....obviously not doing our job properly but it has been wet and the last inspection when I saw eggs was June 18th.  God, the Maths involved with bee keeping, if only I'd known. 
So ........ Do I wait and see if the 10 Queens have fought a battle in hive major and one starts laying -and when will I know.
Do I wait and see if the virgin queen starts laying late in hive minor.
Do I find another queen or two from somewhere before it all becomes too late, and when is too late?

There is a bit of capped honey in the super of the major hive - should I grab it now.  It may be the only taste of honey I have from these bees.
I feel I chose a difficult 12 months to start beekeeping.  The second year starts on the 25 July

----------


## Jon

On the dates you give you likely have a virgin queen in each hive.
I always tell our lot who expect to see a laying queen about 10 days after a swarm that the absolute earliest you will see eggs is about 18 days after the prime swarm and it could well be over 40 days.
If you want to check for sure get a frame of eggs or small larvae and put it in.
If queen cells are started your hive is queenless.
Your bigger hive last checked 18 June has likely thrown about 4 casts by now.
If there are no sealed queen cells left in it, it should not throw any more casts.

PS. You did pick a difficult year to start. the weather has been strange, winter too mild and spring and summer too wet.
there will be a lot of drone laying queens next spring.

----------


## HJBee

Today - I am now a bone fide Bee Keeper! Nucleus collected (thanks to our Association Secretary), taken to site, fed & left for a tantalising 10 day wait till I can open her up & have a gander! Picture is a bit naff as it was dark by the time we were done but for prosperity...

----------


## Jon

There could be anything in there - frogs, mice, a string quartet, or a bargain bag of Imidacloprid.
10 days is a long time to wait to see if you have been sold a pup!
The evil association secretary could be at the other side of the world in 24 hours let alone 10 days.

But yes, it is good to leave alone if you have been assured it is queenright and has stores aplenty.

----------


## HJBee

Has sealed brood, eggs and a stunner of a new queen apparently (seen today in good nick). I'll just have to wait & be patient to see!

----------


## EmsE

> ?..... I'll just have to wait & be patient to see!


Now thats the hard part  :Wink:

----------


## Jon

I am doing cold turkey at the moment. 11 days away from my bees and 8 more to go.
Either they are all missing me terribly or else they are racking up rows of queen cells with queens due to emerge in a week.

----------


## chris

Actually, yesterday. The swarm settled in a nuc in exactly the same position as for last year. 






It's ok Jon, they don't buzz with a Belfast accent.

----------


## chris

I closed up the hive last night, and first thing this morning took it up to my apiary. When I got back, there were loads of bees around the same place. I added 2 nucs and we'll see which, if any, they choose.
Going back out to see if they've woken up Zen (the cat) again.

----------


## Jon

> It's ok Jon, they don't buzz with a Belfast accent.


For all you know Chris, I sound like Prince Charlie

----------


## gavin

Unless Skype has slipped in some accent modification software, I can vouch for the fact that he has a Belfast accent!

----------


## Jon

I must be delusional then. I always reckoned I could pass myself off as a Minor royal.
Better book the elocution classes if one is to come across as a man of education and Greek DNA.

----------


## lindsay s

Hi HJBee 
Good luck with your new colony of bees. Now that your hive’s in place I would seriously think about raising it at least 12-18 inches off the ground. It will keep the hive clear of the weeds and the damp ground. The higher up the hive the easier it is to work out off and it will save you getting a bad back! A hive stand could be as simple as a few concrete blocks or something more elaborate it’s up to you. Also if you are using an open mesh floor you might need to consider having something solid underneath it to cut down on draughts, a concrete slab would do.
I’m assuming the brood box is not yet full of frames and if that’s the case you can add a frame of foundation to the outside of the brood nest and keep feeding. Once the foundation has been drawn out you can add another one and so on. Your new queen should lay well into the Autumn and hopefully you should have a strong colony going into Winter.
P.S. Sorry if I'm repeating what your mentors have already told you.

----------


## HJBee

Thanks Lindsay. I have updated a picture from tonight that is better to the post. (promise I didn't peek &#128519 :Wink: .

It had a wooden decking flag under need the floor (open mesh). I understand what your saying about the height & weeds etc, but I have worked on a few hives with stands at Auchencruive in their education Apairy & I didn't take to them.  Still may consider a couple of breeze blocks.

I have a full brood box using some dummy boards with a few frames of foundation in the inner core, with a couple sat on the outside of the dummy boards ready to swap over if the others get built out.

----------


## Bridget

> On the dates you give you likely have a virgin queen in each hive.
> I always tell our lot who expect to see a laying queen about 10 days after a swarm that the absolute earliest you will see eggs is about 18 days after the prime swarm and it could well be over 40 days.
> If you want to check for sure get a frame of eggs or small larvae and put it in.
> If queen cells are started your hive is queenless.
> Your bigger hive last checked 18 June has likely thrown about 4 casts by now.
> If there are no sealed queen cells left in it, it should not throw any more casts.


Thanks Jon, i'm now going to wait and see if queens appear.  I hope you are not missing your bees too much. 
I took a frame of honey off today so now I have my first jar.  Attachment 1153
So proud!  Funny, all the talk of bees on this forum but no one much mentions the honey.

One thing I forgot to mention was that the varroa board was covered in dead and dying bees yesterday.  I cleared them off, but the same today.  They are not starving as the hive is full of stores. I can't see any signs of disease in the hive but it looks too many to be part of the normal dieting off process.  Here is a couple of photos, firstly showing the bees on the board and then a group of bees - some already dead and others dying or grouped around a dying bee.  Any ideas anyone?
Attachment 1167
Attachment 1169

----------


## HJBee

Could it just be they have been working hard the past few days and worked themselves to death? Has the weather improved around you this week and they've increased activity?

Nice jar of honey (don't tell anyone but I'm not that keen on the stuff!!)

----------


## Bridget

Hi HJBee
Lousy weather on Tuesday but better yesterday and today.  This hive is chocca with stores but depleted in numbers as it swarmed while I was away last week.  Now waiting to see if we have a queen but no eggs or grubs at all.

----------


## Jon

Bees go under the varroa floor and are too dim to know they are outside the hive as they can communicate with the rest of the bees through the mesh. They get chilled and die overnight.

----------


## Bridget

> Bees go under the varroa floor and are too dim to know they are outside the hive as they can communicate with the rest of the bees through the mesh. They get chilled and die overnight.


Ok sounds reasonable but how do I stop them doing this.  Its only started recently. Do you think there is a hole in the varroa floor.  I'm loathe to dismantle the hive seeing its a bit iffy at present and I'm waiting to see if there is a queen in there and if she will start laying.  Unfortunately I don't have any frames of brood to put in there as a test, as you suggested earlier.

----------


## chris

My varroa floors have a tray that slides in and out, and can also be slid in upside down to give a little more ventilation. If your tray cannot be put up against the mesh,then perhaps you can fit some sort of lightweight board underneath with gaffer tape or whatever, so that the bees cannot access the metal mesh.

----------


## Bridget

I think bees are trying to access the hive via the varroa tray at the back.  I didn't realise the tray could go two ways. I'll check that but  I'm also thinking of tacking something along the back, small bit of plastic sheet perhaps. See if that helps it.

----------


## Jon

A bit of gaffer tape to block off gaps should fix the problem.

----------


## Bridget

> A bit of gaffer tape to block off gaps should fix the problem.


One of the problems was that the grass had grown up so much under the hive that bees were landing in it and the climbing up to the tray from below.  So grass cut, rear blocked up and I'll check again tomorrow. Grass in the field is now higher than the hives anyway.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... and the climbing up to the tray from below.


Why don't you remove the tray, Bridget?  You only need it to monitor varroa every now and again.
Kitta

----------


## Bridget

Well Kitta the tray has always been there since the start to I sort of thought it was what to do.  I will check tomorrow and if there are new bees on the tray I will remove it.  So should the tray just be there to monitor when treating for varroa?  I thought that perhaps it gave some protection from the damp and cold in winter but it hadn't occurred to me to remove in summer.

----------


## Jon

I keep mine out. I think most people do. They are not really necessary in winter either.

----------


## chris

I started changing all my solid wooden floors for *varroa* floors about 4 years ago. I think the varroa floor was a cheaper alternative to the Happykeeper floor which has tubes under the frames and gaps elsewhere. My reason for installing them had nothing to do with varroa, but was to try to diminish chalkbrood that was developing in too many colonies and weakening them.The idea that was doing the rounds at the time was that the mesh floor kept the hive nice and dry in winter and so the bees stayed healthier. The mantra was "cold doesn't kill bees but dampness does".
Basically, the argument goes: insulate above the crown board, and leave the tray of the OMF out all through the winter( the only time to put in the tray is when there is a varroa count in progress). The cold air enters the hive, passes through the cluster, warms up, and rises to hit the insulated crown board. As this air is warm, but the crown board is not cold, there is no condensation. the warm,moist air *mushrooms*, spreading along the crown board until it comes into contact with the cold,uninsulated sides of the hive. Here, the water vapour condenses and runs down the sides of the hive, and passes out through the OMF.The cold air descends along the sides and is replaced by air entering and rising up through the cluster.So the cluster stays dry.
The downside is that to heat up all this constant circulation of cold air, the bees consume more stores.
Some people, like Nellie and Jon now claim that varroa counting is not necessarily an accurate indication of infestation levels, and so it would follow that there is no reason to put the tray in at all. 
My chalkbrood problem has cleared up, and since I changed my queens has not come back. Last winter I reverted to solid wooden floors on a couple of hives and noticed that the spring build up was more rapid for their colonies.What I shall do for this winter is revert to solid wooden floors on all my hives, but with a 2 inch hole drilled in each of the back corners and covered with some mesh.

All that to say, if you want to count varroa, then put the tray in whilst you do.Otherwise, leave it out in all seasons except winter, and in winter it's pretty much up to your weather conditions and bee type.

----------


## prakel

I've considered making up some floors consisting of a heavy duty framework with terram tightly stretched across it (I've no real interest in counting mites on any kind of a regular basis). My thinking being that the terram might improve hive ventilation while blocking out a lot of light and foiling any breeze from below -for anyone who's interested, my hives are stood on two rails which are themselves resting between pillars of 2x 4" concrete block layed flat, so somewhere in the region of 10" above ground level.

Still no more than a thought at the present time. Of course I wouldn't be able to run the gas torch over them but I'm sure that I could come up with some way of sterilizing....

----------


## Neils

> .
> Some people, like Nellie and Jon now claim that varroa counting is not necessarily an accurate indication of infestation levels, and so it would follow that there is no reason to put the tray in at all.


For clarification, I think that natural mite drop is unreliable in isolation.  If that is all you're doing to monitor varroa levels during the active season, as I found again this year, it can give very misleading results one way or the other.

My most recent example was hiving a swarm. I'd run out of OA which I generally dose any incoming swarm with. Over the next few weeks the colony was dropping 30+ mites a week but I had no drone brood and there was evidence of DWV. On the basis of the mite drop I treated with apiguard for two weeks. Mites dropped over that two week period? 5.

They were in a brood cycle by that point, they just weren't established enough to have drones. What we think was possibly happening having asked around a bit was that the colony was raising the temperature to draw wax and in a poly hive might have raised the temperature enough to kill the varroa that was phoretic hence I was seeing a consistent large mite drop. By time I decided to add apiguard there was a combination effect that they were no longer drawing wax and more of the varroa was now in the brood hence the apiguard produced little in the way of mites dropping. A few weeks on the mite drop from this colony is now along the lines of the rest with 1-2 mites dropping a week.

Equally Ive had colonies dropping bugger all during the season that when treated with apiguard at the end of the season drop hundreds of mites weekly over the course of the treatment.

So my feeling is not that monitoring the mite drop is worthless, it's that in isolation it is not a reason to not hoik out some drone brood now and again nor to get in a panic that a colony is on the verge of collapse. You very much need to take into consideration other factors.  I currently have floors on 75% of my hives and check them weekly despite feeling still that is a very unreliable method to determine current varroa levels.

----------


## fatshark

Some good news this afternoon ... yesterday I dropped a mini-nuc frame in long grass and lost the queen.  I searched in vain for 20 minutes, gave up, and then stomped back and forwards over the area as I completed inspections of other hives.  I was sure she was a goner.  Today, I checked the mini-nuc to see if they'd started drawing out some QC's and there she was ... on the first frame I looked at  :Embarrassment: 

She definitely wasn't in the box when I closed it up yesterday.

That, and the Wiggins/Cavendish Tour de Force, have made it a great day  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Neils

What about Froome!  :Smile: 

In more good news, that hive I wrote off a couple of months ago?  news of it's demise appears very much premature.

When I last looked at it in April there were a handful of bees, no dead bees in the hive but very much not what I'd consider a viable colony, I left them the thymolated syrup I'd bought down to make sure they didn't starve assuming they were still fine and pretty much left them to it.

This afternoon I went down to tidy up, pick up the hive and bring it back to recover some wax, clean it up and get it ready for next season.

Much to my surprise there is very much a viable colony in there. With the same queen.Until I found her I was assuming that a new swarm must have moved in, but no, she's still there, 4 frames of brood on the go in revolting black combs that I was originally going to replace in the spring.

I'm very pleasantly surprised, they were horrible bees temperament wise but I didn't want to see them dead.

Is thymol the miracle cure for everything or did I just mess up my original assessment that they had Nosema and weren't going to last much longer?  They came out of winter Ok, but just rapidly dwindled in spring to the point in April that I just left them to it while I figured out how to get another colony there before I had to tell the owners that the bees had had it.

----------


## EmsE

Bad news for me  :Frown: 

A queen I thought had mated successfully this year is now just producing drone brood in the worker cells. I've united it with my other drone laying queen so that the bees will get rid of one of them and I only need to find the remaining one. I'll then unite it with the swarm we got on Thursday At the other site -one from my own bees, the queen was clipped and the swarm was on the ground about half a mile from the hive- she did well :Embarrassment:  I'll remember to take a bit more off her wing next time I see her.

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## Jon

> Equally Ive had colonies dropping bugger all during the season that when treated with apiguard at the end of the season drop hundreds of mites weekly over the course of the treatment.


That is my experience too. Sometimes I don't see a mite for a couple of months and then 24 hours after the apiguard goes in you have over 100 on the tray. I still remember the guy in my bka who argued with me one September that he had no varroa and would not be wasting money on treatment. 
And by Christmas he has lost 27/28 and on close inspection of a sample they were heaving with mites.

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## Neils

Treating for varroa is relatively straightforward; assume the worst. That's where mite drops alone are really dangerous, you see nothing so think that everything is hunky dory.

In the conversations I had over that swarm I asked whether I overreacted given that thymol could have put the queen off lay. Other than suggesting that I could/should have uncapped worker brood, the conservative assessment was that treating was the right thing to do. It would be _nice_ to assume that it was wax building or hygienic behaviour that was dropping the mites, but in isolation all the signs were of a colony at risk of collapse from varroa. In hindsight I'm happy to believe that the wax building killed a lot of mites...

But I monitor, monitor, monitor, I follow a robustly implemented IPM scheme and anticipate or react as best as I can.

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## janesik

In the gentle Ayrshire rain came across strange bee behaviour.  A closed white plastic tub of growmore (sorry organic gardeners!) was been thoroughly investigated by 4 or 5 bees who appeared to be trying to get into it - they were busy at it for at least 10 minutes - I then was wet enough to give up watching and go inside.  Any suggestions?

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## gavin

They heard of the nutrient deficiencies on Orkney and were intending to carry some all the way there for them?  (I'm joking!)

They may be seeking salts.  It has been said that is one reason why they like the effluent from dung heaps (close your eyes, food hygiene people).

G.

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## GRIZZLY

Had an ass'n "summer" meeting at home apiary on Sunday.The weather was dry but very windy with a significant wind chill factor.However I decided to have a quick look at my row of hived swarms.They were all short of food despite having been given at least three rapid feeders of syrup each.The wet,windy and cold weather has precluded further colony examinations so I,ve decided to feed all of the colonies at once.I suspect that even if the weather improves enough to allow the bees to forage,they will only bring in sufficient stores to achieve a minimum survival level.I'm resigned to no honey this year and am going to do everything to get them all thro' the coming winter.The forcast is for the wet overcast weather to continue with a succession of cold wet fronts marching across S.W.Scotland.The only significant flow this year was from the early Sycamore and that was cut off by the advent of the wet weather which has continued with few break since.The pattern has been forage one day then rained off for up to a week when stores were consumed.Brood rearing seemed to continue apace so colonies have been and are still strong.Swarming has continued this year but on a very reduced level compared to last year.An expensive beekeeping year!.

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## gavin

Do you not get a heather harvest Grizzly?  Might be worth trying this year if your colonies are strong but hungry (as several of mine are).  At the least it sets them up well for the winter.

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## chris

Grizzly, let's do a deal, rain against heat and sun? For me, one thing about this forum is that it's a constant reminder of how important weather conditions are in beekeeping. You're complaining that the harvest will be non existant because of rain and cold. Over here, we've had practically no rain for about 6 weeks. Loads of flowers, but not yielding. I too think I'll have no honey. Though I'm not having to feed as they seem to have slowed down activity and so are consuming their reserves less quickly. 
What a bee inspector told me about bees doing badly nowadays mainly because of climate change is brought home.

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## GRIZZLY

> Do you not get a heather harvest Grizzly?  Might be worth trying this year if your colonies are strong but hungry (as several of mine are).  At the least it sets them up well for the winter.


Might perhaps give it a go.Still need the weather tho' and that seems set in for a long spell at the moment.Virtually no mites this year.I'm now in my third year of treating with APIVAR and it seems to have got on top of the little beasts.

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## GRIZZLY

Chris if you're fed up with the sun I could suggest doing a swap for a while - I could do with some sun .

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## chris

I was thinking of the bees rather than us :Wink: 
I think I can just about put up with this climate. I moan that it's too hot, but the first day of rain, i'll be moaning that it's too wet. :Confused:

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## GRIZZLY

> I was thinking of the bees rather than us
> I think I can just about put up with this climate. I moan that it's too hot, but the first day of rain, i'll be moaning that it's too wet.


I'd love to be able to moan that its too hot and dry - everything here is just dripping at the moment.

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## fatshark

Hot here in the Midlands, with a good flow on ... so, grafting this morning.

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## gavin

Good flow on here too and it looks mostly lime.  The local lime trees were buzzing with honeybees.  Just back from meeting Kelly and Mike who are surveying and taking samples for the bee health surveillance in Scotland this year.  Onj - that floor insert will be looked at for several pathogens by the lab when they are ready and I wouldn't expect to hear anything from them for months.  The most useful part of today was getting the brood in all the main hives inspected by trained experts, and no suspicious signs were noted.  I've had both AFB and EFB nearby in previous seasons so I'm always half-expecting to see some.

If this hazy-sunny weather continues they may be able to fill a few supers after all.

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## Adam

27 degrees today. My extracting room is 35 so the honey is coming out very easily.
Had the day off today - went to check on some mini-nucs. One nice one has absconded.  :Frown:  It's a home made odd wooden contraption with 6 swi-bine frames plus the space for a feeder at the back. 3 frames of open and sealed brood, 2 frames of stores, a frame of partially drawn comb and plenty of space under the frames. Queen been laying for a couple of weeks. Why do they do that? That's my second one that's gone this year.

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## Jon

I lost a couple to absconding at the start of July.
I cut up a sheet of plastic queen excluder into strips and I pin these to the front of my apideas to keep the queens in once I see eggs.
I don't like the little red excluders as the bees only have 3 slots they can enter by.
I pin the strips to the front of the apidea and they have about 20 slots they can use.

One like this, but pinned to the front of the apidea

apidea-super-excluder.jpg

Another view of an excluder strip here with one I overwintered.
You can't really trust bees in apideas nor to make a dash for it.
I had some on overwinter as makeshift mouse guards.

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## kevboab

I had exact same thing today with a 5 frame nuc. Absconded leaving two frames open/sealed brood. Thankfully found them on a fencepost nearby. Boxed back up into national brood. Whats the reasoning for this behaviour Jon as its left me head scratching.

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## Jimbo

Kevboab, How were your stores? I have heard you can get a thing called starvation swarming where the bees will abscond as they have no food. Given the wet weather we had they would be bringing nothing in

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## kevboab

Pollen n stores on both outers of brood with access to fondant above. The only other thing I can think of is nucs were cooking in the sun but i may be clutching at straws. Maybe they were as shocked at the sun as I was today. Lol. They are now in a national brood with syrup above to try n keep them where they are.

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## GRIZZLY

Suns out today (more rain promised for tomorrow).Sat watching bees in an opium poppy,strange behaviour-they were taking the stamens in their mandiblis and were "chewing" along the lengths of the stamens from end to end.They repeated this several times along each stamen.I'm not sure what they were gathering by this behaviour unles they were causing sap to exude.Other bees were behaving normally collecting pollen and nectar.Anyone else seen them behaving like this ?.

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## Jimbo

Opium poppy you say? Obviously after a fix from the sap. Are they nice quite bees, non running on the frame and in a trance like state?

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## Calum

> Sat watching bees in an opium poppy,strange behaviour-they were taking the stamens in their mandiblis and were "chewing" along the lengths of the stamens from end to end.They repeated this several times along each stamen.I'm not sure what they were gathering by this behaviour unles they were causing sap to exude.Other bees were behaving normally collecting pollen and nectar.Anyone else seen them behaving like this ?.


Collecting sap for propolis? I always take a chew of propolis when I start working the hives to cloak my breath (works a treat), I'd like to try your propolis though! Sounds dreamy.

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## GRIZZLY

Looked at them again this morning-it looks as tho'they're trying to dislodge the pollen grains before collecting it.The poppies in question are oriental opium poppies-purely decorative I might add,which have either large pink or medium red flowers.Each flower attracts as many as 8 bees which clamber around inside and over each other. Jimbo my bees are a dream to handle anyway- very good tempered and quiet on the frames - inclined to swarm however.

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## GRIZZLY

Weather relented at last and I managed a complete inspection yesterday.Very pleasing to discover that all 16 colonies are Queen right and all the new virgins have managed to mate successfully.If the weather continues to improve we might manage to get a small crop of honey before the heather blooms.Lots of H.B.locally and the brambles are going mad.Bees were working in the early morning rain this morning-stopped now with a promise of more rain to come.What a season.!!.

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## GRIZZLY

Bees realy started to throw out the drones today.Still coming in with white pollen - not from H.B as they don't have the tell tale streak of pollen up their backs -it  seems to be worked by bumbles at the moment.Haven't seen any wasps yet.

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## HJBee

Gently persuaded by Phil McAnespie to join a Beekeeping  Demo with Ayr Beekeepers today. They are great at promoting Beekeeping and it was them at the same event last hear that gave me the final push - doing it was the least I could do! ImageUploadedByTapatalk1344017593.268791.jpg

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## Neils

Can I be the first the make the obligatory joke about a cage being the best place for them  :Big Grin:

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## Trog

Another lovely sunny day here on Mull.  Had 3 nice days in a row which is good news for the queens waiting to mate.  Surprising that we have no guests at our B & B just now.  Either they're all watching the Olympics or they think all of Britain is flooded!  Dolphins in Tobermory Bay this afternoon, Minkies and basking sharks just outside the Bay in the last couple of days.  Another lovely day forecast for tomorrow so that will be a bee day!

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## fatshark

Filthy day here until late afternoon.  Between thunderstorms managed to move mini-nucs to mating apiary.  Spent some of the afternoon butchering two Paynes nucs as suggested by Adam via Gavin in the "Poly hive musings" thread to create two 8 frame poly nucs ... and a very large pile of polystyrene dust and shavings  :Smile:

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## Neils

Trog, maybe you need uncle Paul to march up and down the beach?

Pouring with rain here after we went to watch team gb in the footie; in a day when everyone else won gold trust me to pick the football where we didn't even raise a whimper...


In bee news however I have a few hives with supers on, in previous years I'd be taking them off to extract, this year I'm wondering if I should leave them a couple of weeks instead.

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## prakel

was a great weather day here until evening -as Ben Ainsley would confirm!

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## GRIZZLY

In bee news however I have a few hives with supers on, in previous years I'd be taking them off to extract, this year I'm wondering if I should leave them a couple of weeks instead.[/QUOTE]

My bees are foraging well on the odd sunny day.There won't be any honey unless I leave them in the hope that we might get a few good days worth of foraging and enough warm days to encourage the bees to ripen something for me to extract.

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## Neils

Was also thinking that I might leave them on another week or two. Didn't manage to get a look this weekend but will try and get up tomorrow and see how they're getting on, there was a nice flow on over the past couple of weeks until it started raining again.

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## Hoomin_erra

I might actually get a super from my largest hive. 6 wired and 5 unwired. MMMMMMMMMMM!! Next week is supposed to be nice. Well it is up here in the NE of the country. And if September is nice like last year, maybe a super of Heather. We always live in hope.

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## Bridget

Hip hip- after weeks of waiting I have at last found larvae and a little sealed brood in the Demaree.  The first since I did the Demaree on the 4th June.  I had nearly given up.
Also found larvae in the other hive, the one that swarmed while we were on holiday in early July.  So relief all round.

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## Jon

I found eggs in a colony today as well, one which swarmed with a clipped queen when I was away in July.

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## gavin

Me too!  Eggs in a tiny Apidea that I thought was a lost cause.  And a pleasing array of 3-4 frame nucs all doing well at the association apiary with only one drone layer.  I'm thinking of leaving all 9 of them as they are and taking them to our heather site for the visit there a week on Saturday when we can clip, mark and deal with the drone layer.

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## GRIZZLY

Checked the bees yesterday.No honey in any of them,some unsealed and unripened nectar.They are living hand-to-mouth this year.As soon as nectar is brought in its consumed.I'm thinking of putting some serious feed on to prevent starvation.I heard on "Farming today" on thursday a B.B.K.A. spokesman talking about a hopeless year and cases of starving bees down south .

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## Neils

I might get 3 supers of honey. There's plenty in flower at the moment but the flow looks to be over at the moment.

I've got two hives where the queens are happily wandering around but there is no brood whatsoever in one and only drone comb laid up in the other, if she's gone drone laying I'd expect her to be laying as normal so I'm at a bit of a loss to explain those two right now.

Also finally been stung again and I appear not to be dead which I'll take to be a good sign.

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## Jon

Two colonies with clipped queens which swarmed when I was away in July now have laying queens again.

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## kevboab

Thats the drone layers sorted along with a couple of other small colonies and the autumn uniting is completed. Have been completely ruthless this year and taking no chances whatsoever going into winter with small colonies. Finally seeing some honey in the supers but not sure if its gonna be worthwhile harvesting any. Feel the bees need it a damn site more than me at moment.

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## Feckless Drone

Spent yesterday morning helping a more senior keeper, to clear out a storeroom of old equipment. This belonged to a long time keeper, no longer with us, and I've inherited his site. The equipment was mostly made by him and there were lots of ideas and tricks for feeding, keeping comb straight, modifications to Wormit style hives etc. This keeper was very thoughtful about his craft. It was sad clearing out the room but it needed to be done - we found a bucket of honey, about 3-4 L worth, that is at least 6 years old. It looked like a mixture of molasses and crude oil and (ignoring years of H&S training) tasted absolutely brilliant. It had not crystallised and might be honeydew. I did suggest that we bottle it and enter it in the Dundee flower show but was told best not in case it came first. Its going to be burnt along with the other stuff which is also a bit sad.

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## HJBee

Bees foraging well on the Rosebay Willowherb today.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1344795450.247277.jpg

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## Jon

I took this one of one of my bees on the willowherb a few years ago. I wanted to use it for my honey label but Thorne rejected it as it implies that the honey in the jar is monofloral apparently.

willowherb7.jpg

I love to see the blue pollen coming in.

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## HJBee

Fabulous picture Jon!

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## fatshark

Checked grafts from Sunday ... only 10% take  :Frown:   I thought I was taking a risk as the flow was lessening.  I'll have to reassemble the Ben Harden setup on a hive without supers and feed lots of syrup.  I want some late-mated queens to overwinter in a rather more organised way than I did last year.

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## Jon

I have had little or no success with queenright queenrearing this past fortnight but I got 70 cells started easy enough in queenless colonies.
We are getting them into apideas this week.

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## Trog

With pressure falling like a stone, a 'brisk' SE wind, and very hot, it was hardly the ideal day for checking bees.  However, since we've not been able to get at them since the end of last month, there were some colonies that just had to be checked for either stores (nucs) or mated queens or both.  We left all the big colonies alone as they would probably have hammered us.  They can wait for a better day as it's getting late for swarming (though we did once lose a swarm in September!)  The swarm that we guessed was superseding (so left qc untouched) has done so and the new queen's laying really well.  The overwintered nuc that had built up to epic proportions and swarmed (and we caught it) also now has a good mated queen, as has the nuc we made up with a spare qc.  100% mating success this year and - nicest of all - the colonies that swarmed and the early swarms themselves have all produced a surplus of honey.  As for the colony that went down to nuc size with an acarine problem, the eucalyptus oil feeds seem to have done the trick.  They're doing fine and just about to supersede their elderly-ish queen.  I wanted to give them a chance as they seemed so keen to survive; probably too soft for my own good!

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## Jon

It's great when you have a day like that and everything has worked out.
I have also found that queens mated well this year which has been a surprise given the weather.
Our queen rearing group has about 80 cells going into apideas this week so these ones should fly and mate towards the end of August.
I have had queens mate right at the end of September.

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## Trog

Well, it's native-type, locally-bred bees, isn't it, Jon?  Little opportunists who fly in most weathers, know how to party on sunny days and don't mope when it's raining (just build queen cells so they can swarm on the next sunny day!!).  Queens who stop laying when the forage is poor and bump up production when it's good.  Oodles of bright yellow pollen going in today, along with a bit of willowherb.  Almost certainly a fair bit of heather, too, judging by the aroma!

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## Jon

I have seen a lot of blue willowherb pollen this past day or two and also a very yellow pollen which could be privet which is still in flower here.
My bees are not too swarmy touch wood. I only had 4 colonies make queen cells this year out of about 16 at full strength.
3 of them waited until I was away in July so I lost the clipped queens.
Somehow they hacked the Iberia website and checked my itinerary.

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## lindsay s

Today on the BBC. Nice frames of honey and I wish mine were the same.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19347275

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## Jon

Nicely capped.
I have about 15-20 supers to take off in the next few days but a lot of it is only partially capped.
Glad to get anything this year the weather we have had.

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## Jon

Got the Apiguard on to 5 more colonies today after removing supers.
The nucs have nearly finished their treatment which started about the beginning of August.
There are a dozen colonies at the association apiary which need varroa treatment so might make a start on them tomorrow.

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## gavin

This morning the colonies which missed the trip to the hills due to insufficient strength were busy bringing in something.  I'm guessing willowherb as the nectar is pale and the bees clean.  One or two may be worth shifting to Himalayan balsam to catch the tail end of the season.  There were peacock and painted lady butterflies around (real peacocks too).

We had torrential downpours and flooding after lunch, so I decided to do some more beekeeping, as you do.  I went up to the hills to see the bees on the heather in the late afternoon.  11C on the car gauge as the rain cleared away and I approached, hardly good bee flying weather and I was expecting them all to be at home.  The hives were busier than I've seen since the odd day when the OSR was out.  Oh yes!  One with nearly a full super, another half-way there.  There is hope yet for a honey harvest.  The one filling a super got another added, just in case the flow continues.

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## Trog

Just been over to the apiary to check roofs, etc.  It's blowing a gale, rain blattering the windows ... and the bees are out and about!  Still plenty of forage and the heather's only just getting going.

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## Adam

Today
No wind  :Smile: 
23 degrees :Smile: 
No forage  :Frown:

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## Calum

website connects would-bee keepers with landowners

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## Calum

> Today on the BBC. Nice frames of honey and I wish mine were the same.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19347275


easy enough on those half frames. Those would be half langstroths I think.
& Bumble bees are better pollinators for pear apple trees in a cold spring - although they don't really have the numbers to do a job anything like a strong carnica colony can...

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## GRIZZLY

> easy enough on those half frames. Those would be half langstroths I think.
> & Bumble bees are better pollinators for pear apple trees in a cold spring - although they don't really have the numbers to do a job anything like a strong carnica colony can...


They're national shallow frames.The beekeeper is Ian Craig.

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## Calum

yup, shallow frames get filled much quicker so tend to look more regular..
Pain in the bum having essentially two different frame sizes. I prefer being able to interchange the frames between brood box and 'super' as the need arises.

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## GRIZZLY

Colonies still large and looking good despite lack of income from forageing. Queens are all mated properly and producing good brood patterns. Varroa numbers quite low this year  and no sign of DWV or crawling bees. I had expected the possibility of some of the virgin queens not mating properly and becoming drone layers,but my fears are unfounded. I'm looking forward to a better year to come. I noted the "beeb" reporting very low sunlight hours and exceptionally high rainfall for this year- over 100years was mentioned since things were so bad. Butterflies seem to be making a comeback here with a sprinkling of all the usual species.Wasps still absent -havent seen one near my apiary yet.

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## Jon

The wasps are out in force now. Funny how they can become a problem almost overnight. I put out a trap and got about 1000 in it in 48 hours.
The weaker apideas are being picked off.

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## GRIZZLY

> The wasps are out in force now. Funny how they can become a problem almost overnight. I put out a trap and got about 1000 in it in 48 hours.
> The weaker apideas are being picked off.


Just keep them your side of the channel Jon.

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## nemphlar

They just showed up here apparently from nowhere, but suddenly there were hoards of them and very aggressive with more than a few dead bees around, taped the entrances an cut only a small slot. Think they were attracted when I scooped some dead bees from feeder and carelessly threw them onto the grass, sugar coated bees hey couldn't resist

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## GRIZZLY

> They just showed up here apparently from nowhere, but suddenly there were hoards of them and very aggressive with more than a few dead bees around, taped the entrances an cut only a small slot. Think they were attracted when I scooped some dead bees from feeder and carelessly threw them onto the grass, sugar coated bees hey couldn't resist


Just shows the importance of keeping an immaculately clean apiary with no opportunities for robbing or spreading disease.Take all your rubbish home and incinerate it - including dead bees from feeders.

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## Jon

Got my supers home today. 15 altogether and some only part filled but I would hope to get 250+ lbs out of that.
Same as last year, the best colony was the one in the garden. I got about 30 lbs off it in June and another 3 supers today. This was a different colony from the one I had in the garden last year which gave me 100lbs and was split into 4 decent nucs.
I could probably have got a bit more honey but the weather was so bad I decided to make up nucs this summer and have about 20 of which 15 are strong.
The weaker ones might need combining before the end of September.
Can't grumble at all given the weather.

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## fatshark

Started to prepare for the winter.  I extracted last weekend and the wet supers have been back on the hives all week.  Today I added the clearer boards again and tomorrow I'll remove the supers and replace them with a single block of fondant sliced in half, face down on the QE.  I'll add an open tray of Apiguard in the corner.

Last inspection at one apiary showed that all was OK.  The hives, although low on stores, were strong enough and the mini-nucs were looking just fine.  The latter will be moved to the back garden once the weather gets colder.  Tomorrow the clearer boards get moved to the second apiary for a repeat of the entire process there.

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## Neils

While having breakfast this morning we watched a bee totally ignore a dish of honey and go for some candied peel, in presumably honey instead.  I did double check and it was definitely a honey bee, I even set my watch as I figured we had maybe 30 minutes before more turned up.  I kept waiting for it to go for the pot of honey next to the peel but it never did. The honey itself was pretty unremarkable it has to be said and I didn't try the peel as I figured we were on borrowed time but I've never seen a bee ignore honey like that. The two dishes were right next to each other and it definitely checked them all out. Better honey in the peel maybe?

There also wasn't the cloud of bees I was expecting, having retreated to watch proceedings. I thought they'd ignore everything else in preference to finding free honey.

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## HJBee

Kinda bee related - no they were not honey flavouredImageUploadedByTapatalk1347046647.079936.jpg

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## gavin

Far too good-looking to eat, HJ.

Today I recovered two supers of thin unwired, each about 3/4 full, from my usual heather site.  The heather was badly frosted about 10 days ago and they seem to have done nothing since then.  They came from two colonies and two others have nothing.  That will be my entire harvest this year (other than nucs) unless the other one in the hills (in Glen Clova) does anything.  One of the worst seasons in the E of Scotland, one of a run of poor summers.  Those who make their main income from bees are having a hard time, and once again the shelves at the flower show last week were sparse.

Tonight I've been making up boxes so that I can feed the colonies still at the home apiary.  All my spare boxes are housing frames of foundation and comb, prepared in a spate of optimism earlier in the summer.

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## Jon

I spent most of the day extracting the supers I took off last weekend - about 250lbs I reckon. If I sell some of that I can claw back a bit of the money I spent earlier in the year on this strange yet addictive hobby.
I checked apideas yesterday as well and a lot of the last batch of queens have started laying in the past few days. We have just had a week of near perfect weather.

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## gavin

Driving back from Glen Isla I spotted a group of blokes in shorts lugging trolleys with metal stick things poking out and sporting rather naff brightly coloured garb.  Golfers.  What a strange hobby! I thought to myself.  Upon a little further musing it did occur to me that I was driving back from the hills having worked all summer with stinging insects in boxes just to recover a paltry amount of sweet stuff in little wax cells.

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## Jimbo

It has been a poor year and hard going. Up until a few weeks ago I thought I would not have any honey but in the last few weeks the colonies have produced about 3 supers of mixed blossom and I think I should have about 2 supers of Ling heather from a colony I have up the hill. The worse thing for me was the loss of so many nuc colonies. 8 turned out to be drone layers. I picked up a swarm this summer that also turned out to be a drone layer. I had to feed like mad this summer just to keep what colonies I did have alive. I have ended up with the same number of colonies I started the spring with but at least they all have a good young queen. The other strange thing is we monitor the amount of rain that falls and it is not that much different from some other years. June is the only month that was higher but it is still about average for the year. I would say it must be all that pesticides we have that are stopping our queens mating but we don't have OSR. It would interesting to see how many colonies were lost this summer in the wetter West than the drier East

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## Jon

Queens seem to have mated well enough here in Balmy Belfast, although results have been mixed as others in the queen rearing group had more failures. If truth be told this is more likely down to poor management of apideas rather than the weather.
I got about 50 queens out of 32 apideas.
None have turned drone layer but a couple have stopped laying completely.
I introduced one to a nuc at the start of August and had to remove it and requeen again last week as it went 5 weeks without squeezing out an egg.
It was laying worker brood in its apidea and I expect failures to start to lay drone rather than stop laying altogether.
I have another like this in an apidea which was laying normal worker brood and has not laid now for about 6 weeks. I have even introduced brood from queenright apideas to keep it going but she seems to have permanently stopped laying.
There has been no attempt to supersede either of these queens even though there have been introduced larvae available.
I thought the first batch of queens which mated in June might fail as it seemed to rain every day but the nucs I made up at the start of July are ok so far. Poorly mated queens usually fail quite quickly. I have high hopes for the current batch as the weather was great and there are no exotic drones about in September. Some of my colonies still have hundreds of drones although I noticed a few have started to tip out their drones in the past week.

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## gavin

I wonder if those non-laying queens are just a random subset of the poorly or non-mated drone layers?  Or maybe they are laying a few eggs, it is just that the workers are on to them and gobble up the unfertilised ones almost as soon as they are laid.  It was this kind of situation that I thought might explain Ruary's mate's shenanigans.

Nearly had another flight of fancy on wet wests and pesticides, but this isn't the forum area for that.

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## Jon

It's only 2 queens out of about 50 - but failures don't usually stop laying altogether.
The usual routine I see with a poorly mated queen is initial brood with too much drone brood in it then all drone brood after a few weeks.
I have looked carefully for eggs in these two cases.
Sometimes when you put in a frame of larvae it can get them going but these ones have ignored it.
As they say, bees don't read the books, ride unicycles etc.

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## Jon

I checked a few nucs at the association apiary today.
They were piling in the pollen from the balsam and the ivy (at last) and I noticed quite a few eggs on the combs.
Maybe things are going to pick up a bit after a very wet and cool September.

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## GRIZZLY

Went to a local farm yestrday to retrieve a couple of hives.To my amazement they both had a full super of sealed honey.I certainly didn't expect that as my honey yield has been very low this season and the farm in question is very open with no obvious nectar sources except clover which I didn't see in flower.The rest seem busy with Balsom which is prolific this year.

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## Don Ember

Still waiting patiently for the ivy here.  Not flowering yet for my bees!

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## Hoomin_erra

Question. i have an "almost" full super, and loads of honey in the brood. If i break the capped honey in the brood (making sure it's not brood) will the bees take it up to the super? I can then take off a full super, and then feed them for winter

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## Jon

At this time of year they are more likely to move honey from the super down to the brood box.
I would extract the super and start feeding. If your extractor takes deep frames you could extract a couple and feed extra but I would be inclined to leave stores in the brood box where they are at this time of year.

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## Rosie

I'm with Jon except that I would extractthe ripe stuff from the super, remembering that it can be ripe and still be uncapped, and then put the unripe combs back on the hive in a super above the crown board.  Hopefully they will then take it down to add to what's already in the brood box.  I would only give them sugar if you judge them to be still light on winter stores in the brood box.

I would have thought that it would be too late to feed syrup now but mine are still happy to take it down but I am sure they will refuse it soon.

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## chris

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but are you suggesting that you take more than the surplus honey, and then feed the bees syrup to replace it? If so, then in your position,IMO, I'd leave all the brood box honey for the bees and take just the frames already in the super for myself. Unless you can, in your area, count on more forage coming in.

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## Jon

Hi Chris. I would not extract deep frames from the brood box at this time of year myself but I guess you could do if you wanted to.
I am more interested in bee breeding than harvesting honey.
I think Finman who posts on BKF does this, extracts everything,  and then feeds gallons of syrup over a couple of weeks. Each to their own I guess.
The ivy is only starting here so there will be forage but the amount collected as always will depend upon the weather.
The balsam is still in full flower as well.

Steve, I probably feed more syrup than you, and I often have to remove 3 or 4 capped frames in the Spring. I do it as insurance and it gets fed back in the June gap or for making up nucs.

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## chris

> I think Finman who posts on BKF does this, extracts everything,  and then feeds gallons of syrup over a couple of weeks. Each to their own I guess.


Ah! Bubo. The first time I ever posted on the old BBKA forum I had him posting in red. For me, bees wintering on their own honey is one of the pillars of healthy colonies.I never feed unless absolutely necessary, and even then I hesitate, thinking that maybe a colony that goes into winter without enough stores is a sign of something to investigate (yeah, my bad beekeeping).I seem to remember Willie Robson in a tv documentary saying that his father used  winter for weeding out the unsuitable colonies.Or something like that.

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## Jon

I believe Brother Adam used to make up hundreds of nucs which he left to fend for themselves over the winter as only the hardy ones survived.

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## Adam

I would be reluctant to remove honey at this time of year unless a colony had no room. If they don't need it, it will still be there in the Spring.

I have a couple of colonies that need more stores, otherwise feeding is complete.

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## GRIZZLY

I extracted the two supers I took of on Monday. Then immediately fed both colonies.  I certainly won't take any honey from brood boxes unless I'm splitting colonies in the spring/summer.The yield of honey this year has been realy low due to the cold,wet and windy summer.The bees have been bordering on starvation all summer - eating nectar as soon as it gets into the hive.  The colonies have been large however so have needed supplimentary feed all season.

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## fatshark

Wonderful autumn day here with unbroken sunshine and temperatures in the mid teens.  Bees still busy on the ivy.  Lots of pollen being brought in.  Spent the morning foraging ... we've had the chippies in at work and they left lots of ply offcuts most of which are safely tucked away in my garage  :Embarrassment:  Also found the motherlode of old rotten wood from an recently felled tree.  Enough for the next couple of years fuelling the smoker and now drying in my greenhouse  :Embarrassment:  

Spent the afternoon at the apiaries, removing old Apiguard trays, adding another half block of fondant where necessary (most hives have consumed 12.5kg in the last 4 weeks) and checking things were ready for the winter.  Only thing left to do is collect the mini-nucs from an out apiary and tuck them somewhere sheltered for the next 5 months.

Time for a beer!

----------


## GRIZZLY

Off to get some cedar to store to allow complete drying. I intend to make some varroa floors that give a bigger mesh area than those supplied by M.B. The bees are all flying well and are still taking down feed.  They've each taken down two 12 1/2 litre cans of Ambrosia so should'nt starve this winter.  Pollen is still being brought in to all colonies.  Keeping fingers crossed for a better 2013.  Off to Weybridge for the National Honey Show where I hope to meet old friends.  I hope to come back with a copy of a new book - written by my old pal JOHN HOME about his exploits in Africa setting up beekeeping for the africans as a source of income  for those that have nothing.

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## gavin

Enjoy the honey show.  Mine (and the association's) are also mostly still taking down feed though a couple haven't touched theirs this last week.  At 8C yesterday afternoon there were quite a few flights coming back laden with pollen from the ivy.

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## emcampbell

Popped along to the aberdeen associations honey show on saturday. Good to put some names to faces and see that not everyone failed to get a crop this year ! Congratulations to the winners and cheers to the ladies at the cake stall. My wee boy got stuck into the scones (and chocolate cake!). I might have some of my own honey to enter next year with any luck.

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## GRIZZLY

Local honey shows are a good test for the purity of your honey. Our association is inviting our membership to bring a sample jar along to our next meeting,  which is our AGM,  for a " taste in". Be nice to taste the different sorts and perhaps guess their origin. I'm stepping down as Chairman this year so new blood will be running the show.

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## Hoomin_erra

Snowed this morning.

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## prakel

seems rather quiet in these parts but I'm pleased to see that someone remembered to leave the light on.....

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## gavin

We're all feeling depressed at the report of snow to the north ..... and the frost on the ground in the mornings ..... and tonight I even saw a gritter lorry out and about.

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## prakel

I knew I lived in the South for a reason.

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## gavin

Well, we'll just have to console ourselves with our quieter traffic, scenic views, general quality of life .... and a national football team that quickly exits international competitions and leaves us with plenty of free time for things like beekeeping.

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## prakel

quieter traffic, scenic views and general quality of life, sounds like motorway free Dorset and the Jurassic coast to me.

Edit: as for football, coming from a Union stronghold I never really bothered even trying to get my head around the game.

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## Jon

> .. and a national football team that quickly exits international competitions and leaves us with plenty of free time for things like beekeeping.


And where did the manager come from???

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## Bridget

Love the frost and snow. No comparison between Scotland and Dorset.  Every time I go to the Bridport /jurrasic  area I'm horrified at the amount of cars and (old) people.  I would never go back

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## prakel

I know, all those people who forgot that it's bad to get old.... terrible.

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## GRIZZLY

Just got back from the Jurassic coast - plenty of old fossils about. Good to get back up here tho' - just couldn't stand the sudden heat and sunlight.

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## gavin

Last time I was near Chesil beach it was a drizzly damp dark day, as dark as any here. The slugs had been out in force and were chomping through the early spider orchids. I took a decapitated one home and it set seed on my windowsill.  But that was another era. 

Yes, the Scotland manager would have been better staying where he was and I would have welcomed that at the time. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## prakel

> Just got back from the Jurassic coast


should have pm'd me!

----------


## Jon

Beautiful day so checked a load of colonies and rearranged some stores. More info in the blog.

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## fatshark

Lots of bees collecting pollen from the ivy during the warmest part of the day ... queues forming to get in and out of the mini-nucs.  I checked hives at one apiary and wrapped them in DPM to keep the woodpeckers away.  I'll do the rest next w/e.  I also moved the last of the poly nucs into the back garden where things are a little more sheltered (and they can avoid the attention of the damned woodpecker!).  

That's pretty much it for the season though there is a large pile of flat-packed cedar boxes bought at the Thornes sale last w/e ... something to build over the winter.

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## Jon

I checked 10 apideas I have at home and all are still queenright. Most of them had brood present.
I have 13 apideas still occupied and I think all have queens.
Also called over to the association apiary and topped up feeders and added more fondant to a few colonies.
They were all piling in the ivy pollen.
Took 3 more samples for morphometry as well.

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## emcampbell

Lots of pollen coming in over the weekend. Good to see them so busy !

Would anyone hazard a guess at the pollen species - dark yellow colour ? The ivy near us is not quite in flower yet, still a week or so away.

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## Jon

Got to be ivy.
They have probably found some high up and south facing which has flowered a bit earlier.
Mine are bringing it in in huge quantities as well. Great to watch.

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## Mellifera Crofter

We went to Crathes Castle yesterday and saw lots of bees active on the last of the red hot pokers.  Do they have yellow pollen, and do you have any red hot pokers near you, Ewan?

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## emcampbell

I think there are some red hot pokers not too far away actually and they would have a similar yellow colour to what I saw. Jon you are probably correct as well that there is ivy in flower somewhere nearby. In hindsight I think there is a big south facing stand round the back of a large property near us but I can't check due to large guard dogs  :Smile: 

Nice to see them out and about......the bees that is not the dogs.

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## GRIZZLY

Just got back from the National Honey Show in Weybridge. Came across the SBA President -Phill McAnespie and his wife having a wander round the exhibits and the trade stands and met up with a few old beekeeping aquaintances from my previous life " down south".  Some lovely honey and wax exhibits on show but I wonder how much of it was from this years harvest. Certainly the drawn comb wasn't - judgeing by the seeping cappings.

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## GRIZZLY

Bees still flying bringing in pollen .Had a visitor this morning - a red squirrel that made itself at home on our bird feeders.Spent the morning collecting loose peanuts and burying them in the lawn.I'm very pleased , they seem to have spread quite widely around here.

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## Bridget

No chance of flying bees here.  Some sun but +1 till about elevenses  time and then it staggered up to +4 with a very chilly wind.


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## GRIZZLY

Had a quick dash into the garden this morning.We had a terrific gust that removed the roofs off two hives, depositing the roof and brick weights into the middle of my lawn.Fortunately it wasn't raining so the bees were all right. The roofs are the shallow plastic type so the wind can get undrneath and flip them off the hive -  weights and all. I think I'll replace them all with wooden national roofs plus foam slabs which will avoid the problem of adverse weather. Just use the flat roofs during the better weather next year. I'll strap the roofs down after the O.A. treatment.

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## Bridget

Well that sent me rushing out to check my hives!  All ok here but my grandsons  trampoline blown away in Edinburgh so perhaps the winds have yet to reach us in the north.


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## Trog

Just been round my lot, too.  All still intact.  Had to let 'sooty' the sparrow out of the woodburner again.  Keeps falling down the flue when the fire's not lit!

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## Bridget

Our wood burner has hardly been out in the last month.  However we had to rescue another Sooty during the summer.  Had no idea what sort of bird it was and had quite a laugh when this black duck flew off.


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## Bridget

Sun out periodically, temp +10 and the lovely ladies are taking the opportunity to get out and about. 


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## EmsE

I'm going to be going along to the apiary this evening to check all hives are standing up right (all hives have a ratchet strap on them but no bricks) and to see if the field is at risk of flooding. That could be fun in this weather in the dark. 

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## Jon

Yesterday it was 4c in the afternoon and all was quiet but today it hit 14c and they are bringing in stacks of ivy pollen.

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## HJBee

Beekeeping in the dark, wind & rain! Fields adjacent to the Apiary site were flooded, but luckily ours was a bit mushy. Didn't stop me falling on my face, much to my own and Emse's amusement - but at least the ground was soft! All hives were raised as a just in case and at 11degrees a few of the wee bandits came out to check out what we were up to.

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## EmsE

Relieved to say that the bee hives weren't sitting in a flooded field. The fields across from them have partially flooded, so just in case the water begins to get closer, we've sat them on some extra bricks to raise them just that bit more as the ground was waterlogged and I could feel myself sinking a bit when carrying the bricks.

Aided by the car headlights and HJBees head torch all went well. it was good to see just how sheltered from the wind the hives are, and of course any excuse to visit the apiary.....in the pitch black :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  all went well, quite entertaining and good to see one of my colonies was as enthusiastic as ever. As we were tilting the hive to put the extra bricks under, they began bubbling out..... Do bees sleep or are mine insomniacs? Will the colony always have guard bees that are awake & on duty (if that's it, then that colony has a lot of guard bees)  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## EmsE

"Hey there Mr Blue, we're so pleased to be with you, look around see what you do......"


We had sunshine today :Wink:  pity I was at work though but at least the bees will have been able to enjoy it a bit. I'm just hoping its enough for the flood waters to subside a bit ready for the forecasted rain tomorrow to be accommodated before it reaches the apiary field.

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## gavin

Hey you with the pretty face,
Welcome to the human race
A celebration Mr. Blue Sky's
Up there waitin' and today
Is the day we've waited for

For anyone not on Ems' wavelength tonight, I bring you the clickable version ...




What a jolly ditty.  The hairstyles are the kind of thing Jon would have had when he actually did have hair.  Must have taken hours to fluff them up like that.

The sky and the view from the allotments up high on Dundee Law was indeed lovely today.  There were two bumble bee queens flying too (just to get back more or less on topic).

Hope that you're all prepared for the two-brick gale coming your way.

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## Jon

I never grew an Afro.
ELO are a Beatles tribute band in all but name. same as Oasis.

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## EmsE

Jon, Their music and style is their own imo. (Much prefer their style to the beetles) Mind you, one got away with releasing 'the yellow submarine' and the other with 'Horace Wimp'. :Confused: 

Gavin, do you mean to say i'm on a different wavelength to others?  :Stick Out Tongue:  I think you've posted the only video where Geoff isn't wearing his sunglasses! And his hair makes mine look tame.

So long as the wind isn't going to change direction my hives should be ok. Ratchet straps on all of them this year after last years gales so if they do go over, it'll be in one piece.

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## Jon

Horace Wimp uses the chord sequence from Dear Prudence off the White Album.

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## gavin

Nothing could make your hair look tame!  

You were clearly thinking on a higher plane.  I was just helping the slow ones to keep up   :Stick Out Tongue: 

Wish I'd invested in a couple of ratchet straps to complete the set.  I have a couple unprotected, and have memories of just a little later than this last year when two were upside down and in pieces when I visited after a gale.

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## Jon

I taped a few correx lids on to my correx nucs today with gaffer tape.
I don't need to open them for a month when they will get the Oxalic acid trickle.
Some of them are light but they have stores which will last a month and I can sort that out later.
You are getting really bad weather in Scotland. Mine have been foraging 3 days in a row now.

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## EmsE

> Nothing could make your hair look tame!  .


Lol, and this weather won't help either.

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## Bumble

> You are getting really bad weather in Scotland.


It hasn't been very nice here in the wet and windy south.

One of ours hives, complete with a couple of bricks, got blown off its stand by one of those 'freak' gusts of wind that can lift more than a person can manage. Fortunately the strap held it together and, hopefully, the hoffman frames will have stayed put inside.

It wasn't much fun trying to get it upright again. It took two of us, and we ended up looking like a couple of mudlarks.

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## Jon

Still a few brave souls collecting pollen today in bright sunshine and it is only 6c-7c.
Looks like we are set for a spell of cold and dry weather.

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## GRIZZLY

I was going to OA them today but they were all flying so I didn't disturb them.Its to get colder into the weekend so will perform the deed then.

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## EmsE

Well, the first lot of snow is falling just now & settling nicely. With rain forecast during the night, it's going to wash it all away before the morning. At least it's going to be warmer tomorrow.

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## Poly Hive

The problem with ratchet straps is they rely on the pin, the "axle" of the unit to take the strain. One moments contemplation of that load bearing part is disconcerting. 

Spansets have no such issue. I would put my faith in one of them far far far more than that tiny pin in the ratchet and as I spent a great part of my life judging the ability of items to with stand stress and loads.... I do not own a ratchet, but I do own numerous Spansets. 

PH

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## greengumbo

Four inches of snow on the ground over the weekend. More this week.

-5'C last night at 7pm. 

Not seen the bees for an age.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Spansets have no such issue. I would put my faith in one of them ... 
> 
> PH


I looked at Google images of spansets, PH, and can't quite see how you use them.  Some look like huge elastic bands and others are ropes with a loop on each end.

I've just spilled wax all over the kitchen floor.  I used a Ragus candy container in which to pour the molten wax and it worked fine the first time round, but when I reused it, the container split with wax everywhere.  "Lessons must be learned."  (Excuse the cliché.)

Kitta

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## Black Comb

This explains how to use the spansets

http://www.thorne.co.uk/image/data/D...ve%20Strap.pdf

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## prakel

While I don't have PHs experience of checking straps for strength etc I've got to agree that they're by far the better option. No moving parts is always a bonus -and once you've sussed out how to do them up (nice link Black Comb) you never forget.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Black Comb - I do have spansets!  I just didn't know that's what they were called.  They don't look like the ones illustrated on Google.
Kitta

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## Poly Hive

Technically they are called "Hive Straps", Spanset as a company sell all sorts of rigging kit, slings up to 1000T SWL I believe and everything in between. The hive strap has a working load of 0.15 tonnes and the strap it's self new is .3. So 150kgs, working strain for normal usage. 

The Safe working load or SWL is always considerably higher than the load involved in case of shock load. A lift of one tonne has usually an excess of 100% to allow for the load getting snagged and suddenly coming free, the shock, in the shock loading. 

Anyway Hive straps are easy to use and long lived. My old mentor has ones in use which are over 30 years old now. 

A short video explains... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=CcCbQ7W7foA#!

PH

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## gavin

The Spansets I have rusted rather quickly (that black paint peeled off) whereas only the cheaper ratchet straps did so.  Ratchet straps are the gold standard for me (especially brass ones!), giving a very secure, tight grip whereas getting that tight grip is harder with Spansets.  With Spansets as you flip the bracket over you momentarily tighten even more than when it is at rest, which means on softer materials (polyhives spring to mind) more damage is done. 

And with ratchet straps on wooden hives with metal-topped roofs you can tighten until pinging the webbing is satifyingly musical.

Tried using spring clips (each box has its own position, hard to find the right box when your numbers grow a little), lock-slides (ditto), and, in the early days, ropes (oh! the fun of the move to the heather!).

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## prakel

Off topic a bit...

I've still got a carrier bag full of the copper staples which we used to use when we had more hives -*very hard* on the woodwork but cheap at the time. They've now found a new unexpected use as frame spacers in mating nucs -but I doubt that I'll ever have enough frames to even scratch the surface of that carrier bag.

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## Poly Hive

Proper spansets Gavin are blue painted with orange straps as in the video. 

Yes there is a touch of crushing on the roofs of the poly but as it is (if done right) in the middle then once done it is always the same place and makes no odds. I would take a pic of a roof for you but my camera is sold and in the post this day. My new one is my Crimbo pressie. 

Your properly tensioned spanset will twang like a violin. 

You can keep your ratchets, all depends on that pin sirs... verrra weak. As for hammered in lock slides... *shudders* Staples... double shudders

PH

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## prakel

> Staples... double shudders PH


Doesn't even come close...!!

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## GRIZZLY

I use the spanset hive straps and mark the strap with a waterproof pen so I know where to pull the strap thro' for the right tension. Different colour further up the strap if I'm using it to move hive plus super. Just takes a bit of experimenting to get it right.

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## Adam

I find that the webbing hive straps fail rather than any mechanism that's used with them.

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## Poly Hive

Which ones have you had fail Adam? Never heard of that before.

PH

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## GRIZZLY

Bad stiching perhaps on cheap imitations Adam ?. The Spanset strap webbing has a huge breakng strength = certainly enough to crush hives if not tensioned correctly , either poly or wood.

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## Black Comb

Uv has degraded some of mine but none have yet failed.

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## Poly Hive

300kgs should be more than enough for most hives unless made of reinforced concrete. And yes there was a concrete hive once upon a time.  :Wink:  I have a slide of it somewhere. 

PH

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## Calum

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articl...Pixel-Perfect/
The Secret Lives of Honeybees
wow!

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## Bridget

+6 and dry and still this afternoon so decided to give them their Christmas fondant early.  I say fondant but its home made and a solid block so if they don't like I can buy the proper stuff later.  I gave it a bit of a scratch so they could get started on it.  Interesting that the polyhive with the Perspex board I could see bees crawling all over the board.  Hard to see but no discernible area of where the cluster was.  The other two hives with solid CB I opened up both porter bee things and could see bees moving on one side so plonked the fondant over them.  With my ear to the varroa board ( I keep them in in winter as its so cold and snowy here) I could hear the level of buzzing rising as they found their treat.  So with all three hives buzzing in my ears I took my wet knees home as the snow started to fall again.


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## Jimbo

How ironic. Started to find a few bees crawling about the inside of the house over the last few days. SWMBO is not amused At first checked the bee samples in the freezer, just in case. 
I don't keep hives at home and I know everybody who has hives in the near area so I think I have a feral colony inside a wall. 
Going to be interesting in spring when they get active as it is impossible to get to them as the walls are at least four feet thick.

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## gavin

Do they look like good Rosneath natives?  

And why now - have you recently turned the central heating on?  Seems odd that they choose December to go walkabout.

(was about to say that something must be disorientating them, but no, let's not go there .... )

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## Jon

Checked mine at the allotment today and a mouse or possibly a rat had been into a weak nuc and chewed up a couple of combs near the entrance - or maybe I should not rule out neonicotinoids producing a sub lethal chewed up comb effect. (Has anyone tested for this - maybe we need a ban under the precautionary principle until about 10 years of data is available.)
This one is so weak I could probably squeeze them into a 5 frame apidea. It still has a queen.
I have 3 or 4 nucs  I am not really expecting to come through the winter
I need to move some of these correx nucs to the garden as the allotment is heaving with mice. The pickings are rich and there are sheds full of seeds dotted all over the place.
The other curious detail is that three 1 gallon plastic ketchup bottles full of syrup which were sitting at the apiary had been punctured at the shoulder with what looked like a bite mark. I wonder was this the work of a rat or could a fox or a badger have had a nibble. It was a very clean puncture just about big enough to let in a wasp.
Several of the colonies were active at 8c and an apidea was bringing in a bit of pollen.

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## fatshark

Cool here and predicted to get much colder. Mini-nucs getting TLC but they're still out and about when the temp reaches about 8 degrees. About a third of my nucs and mini-nucs are lighter than i would like, but all are still active and taking fondant. 

Spent the day assembling flat-pack brood boxes from the Thornes sale and building framed QE's and new crown boards with both Perspex and built in insulation. 

This cold snap should be just about the right time for the hives to be broodless for OA treatment in about a fortnight or so.

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## gavin

> The other curious detail is ......


Do Ulster wasps have very sharp teeth?

The bigger mystery seems to be who in the association buys their ketchup by the gallon, and why?!

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## Jon

> Do Ulster wasps have very sharp teeth?
> 
> The bigger mystery seems to be who in the association buys their ketchup by the gallon, and why?!


Me! I like ketchup on my potatoes.

I reckon about half a pint of syrup ran out of each container as the puncture hole is near the top.
It looks like far to clean a hole to be a rat or a mouse and there is no sign of scraping or gnawing.
the plastic is pretty tough, it definitely was not a wasp although there are still a few about.

I'll take a picture. I didn't have the camera with me today.

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## fatshark

.22 ?

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## gavin

> .22 ?


Is that the temperature down your way?  Tayside is balmy by comparison.   :Wink: 

I suspect that an allotment is not the place for such tools.  By the sounds of it there would be plenty of replacement rodents around.

----------


## Jon

> .22 ?


It's about that size but it's not a clean entry hole.

There were 3 punctured and they were sitting apart but near a hive in each case and there was nowhere a sniper could have got a clean shot!
Not that we run around with guns in Ireland or anything like that. Scurrilous rumour.

It looks more like a puncture made by a canine tooth.

It's stuff I intended to feed but the weather turned too cold to feed syrup and they have been sitting at the apiary for 6 weeks.

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## gavin

Doh!  Misunderstood that one.  Of course, there would be an entry and an exit hole in that case (or a pellet inside).  Shushh ... United are on the telly .....

----------


## gavin

Prompted by tales of guys with many more colonies than me heading for the low-lying spots to rescue hives, I had a peek at mine today.  Standing water, but mine are mostly on stands and are lifted well clear.  Another deluge is forecast for tomorrow .....



There were a few bees out from the hives that had fondant a couple of days ago even though it was only 4C.  One flying, 2-3 walking.

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## GRIZZLY

Phew !!.  Just finished double coat painting 11 Denrosa poly hives with the good old Dulux weathershield. Drying has been a pig , I've had a blazing fire in my workshop stove day and night and ran out of places to stack the parts for drying off. I see yours are overwintered on a combination of wood and poly , Gavin.  Your site looks good wellie country.

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## gavin

> Phew !!.  Just finished double coat painting 11 Denrosa poly hives with the good old Dulux weathershield. Drying has been a pig , I've had a blazing fire in my workshop stove day and night and ran out of places to stack the parts for drying off. I see yours are overwintered on a combination of wood and poly , Gavin.  Your site looks good wellie country.


The commercial guys hire an industrial paint sprayer and blast them against a warehouse wall - when the neighbours are out!  

Definitely wellie country, and I had them on.  The white box is made from basic softwood not polystyrene.  A local social enterprise - the Claverhouse Group - has been making them and selling to various beginners.  I borrowed one last autumn.  I'd rather have Wester Red Cedar or some similar cheaper timber and the box will be going back to its owner in the spring.  So all of mine are wooden, though I do have Paynes nucleus boxes in a shed awaiting some paint.  I also look after bees for the association and there we have a mix of Swienty poly Nationals and a couple of Smiths, Paynes poly nucs and wood.

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## Poly Hive

Sadly under-represented lol... I am currently going through my slide collection and Craibstone had: Timber, National, Langstroth, Smith, Dadant, WBC, Glen and Commercial,  and in poly Lang and Smith. And this in 1988.
PH

----------


## Bridget

I had a band of jays in my garden today.  Bright flashes of blue caught the eye.  Don't think they are normally resident this far north.  Maybe escaping the waterlogged south.  Coldish wind so only the odd bee about, mainly doing the housekeeping.  Looks like quite  few more dead bees to be turfed out. Still waiting to get the OA done but a bit tardy in ordering it up.


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## Bumble

> I had a band of jays in my garden today.  Bright flashes of blue caught the eye.  Don't think they are normally resident this far north.  Maybe escaping the waterlogged south.


Very few acorns this year, so maybe they've flown north in the hope of finding something to eat?

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## Bridget

Thornes delivery arrived in double quick time so OA done today.  Calm, 10 degrees and the rain had stopped so ideal.  all three hives look in good nick for the present.  9 seams in the Demaree hive that gave me my first honey and it also looks like plenty of stores.  7 seams in my new hive, lots of noise and batting off my suit. The fondant is nearly all gone so may need some more soon.  #3 the hive that swarmed while we were on holiday, and probably a cast as well, we're on about 5-6 seams, very quiet and hardly into the fondant so reckon they are OK as well. 
 lots of dead bees had to be cleared from the entrance of  the 9 seam hive, this was the one with the wooden roof and quite a lot of condensation in the roof so will have to do something about the ventilation in that one.  All hives have insulation above the crown board.
when is the best time to check for varroa drop?  One week?


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## gavin

Sounds like some powerful colonies you have there.  The weakest of your three is about average size for this time of year.  The ones I have which are as powerful as your other two - if they are still like that as spring arrives - will be getting a second brood box.  As long as there is some forage in spring you should have strong colonies for the season ahead. It is great to read such an optimistic report!

As for looking at the Varroa drop, a week sounds reasonable.  You might have most or perhaps just a fraction of the total drop by then, it varies so much.  However you will see whether it is a little or a lot.  Doesn't matter too much - you should get the vast majority (>90%) of them with the oxalic treatment.

----------


## Bridget

Thank you Gavin.  I've not had to use a double brood box before so I'd better get some ordering done with Thornes before the sale ends!


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## gavin

You don't have to but you may restrict the brood nest if you don't.  A second brood box suits my ways of making increase too.

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## Jon

I bought 10 more broods and 10 supers yesterday.
Can't keep them in correx forever.

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## GRIZZLY

14 colonies all alive and thriving.They all got a slab of fondant this morning.I'm hoping they all make it thro to spring. Interest in our ass'n to go to Belfast-we should be able to get a car load.Be nice to make contact with our "nearest" association.

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## greengumbo

Had a quick peek yesterday and I can see they are munching through the fondant fairly rapidly now as I can see through the cellophane wrapping to the frame. Time to replace it after these snow drifts calm down again !

Buds on lots of my hedging and crocus / snowdrops poking up  :Smile:

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## GRIZZLY

Snowing hard this morning.Glad I got fondant on all of my hives to make sure they don't run short of stores.

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## Bridget

Went to check the hives and cleared the entrances of a bit of snow build upImageUploadedByTapatalk1358522201.678120.jpg
Then checked more carefully and found, eek, left hand hive eke was off the ImageUploadedByTapatalk1358522349.705240.jpgcrown board at the front despite being tied down and having a log on top. 
The wooden crown board is quite frozen and slippy and the poly eke is sliding off it in the wind I think. Retied it, added a large stone out of the dyke and will check again tomorrow.  Think the problem is I didn't take the QE off that hive so have both QE and crown board which is a bit unstable in this weather.  However as its a polycarbonate crown board I could see the bees were none the worse for it.


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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...The wooden crown board is quite frozen and slippy and the poly eke is sliding off it in the wind I think. Retied it, added a large stone out of the dyke and will check again tomorrow.  Think the problem is I didn't take the QE off that hive so have both QE and crown board which is a bit unstable in this weather.  However as its a polycarbonate crown board I could see the bees were none the worse for it.


Yes, I've seen that slipperiness before - that's why, with poly hives, I now don't place the crown boards between two boxes anymore - and certainly not in the winter.  I cut them down so that they're the same size as the top bars and fit neatly inside the eke.   I think you're right - having a queen excluder and a crown board together probably made it even more slippery.

Kitta

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## Bridget

Thanks for that advice Kitta.  Will try to remember to do that when I get a chance.


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## drumgerry

This is the scene in front of one of mine today (a Paynes poly Nat).  First time I've had the classic melted patch in front of the entrance from the heat generated by the cluster.  I've always had mine on stands but I didn't have time to make one for this hive.  And yes - no mouseguard! Call the overwintering police! :Stick Out Tongue: 

beesmelt1.jpgbeesmelt2.jpg

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## GRIZZLY

How do you fit a mouseguard to that entrance ?.

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## drumgerry

It would be possible Grizzly if you cut some plastic queen excluder to size so that it was smaller than the overhang but a standard mouseguard wouldn't work.  Or if you used the nails/pins spaced on the entrance block method.  I never quite got round to it as you can see.  All's well though.  No meeces present AFAIK!

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## drumgerry

A standard mouseguard would work if you made the entrance block deep enough that it was flush with the central column.  Again something I didn't do when I made the entrance block.

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## Bridget

Silly bees lured out by the sun shining on the hives at -3 degrees. Had to shade the entrances.  Small birds in the trees near the hives picking off the dead and dying bees that show up so well on the snow
 No new snow here since Friday - the one area of the country well equipped for it.  I love the snow.  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1358942529.188965.jpg



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## Neils

Spent this morning talking to beginners and this afternoon giving the nature reserve bees a once over to make sure they've got enough food. All hives still looking good, though two on the allotment are touch and go,

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## GRIZZLY

Off to Glasgow today to get another load of cedar to make brood boxes for an Ass'n member. Realy clean knot free timber - some of the best i've had. Nice job to have over the winter months getting everything ready for the next season.
Bees been flying over the past days and clearing a few dead bees out, Weather seems to be going backwards again with icy winds and snow showers.I hope it warms up a bit so that the bees can get at the pollen being produced by the snowdrops which are in profusion this year.

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## Jimbo

Hi Grizzly,
Where are you getting your source of cedar in Glasgow?

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## GRIZZLY

Company called TIMBMET just off the A8 towards the airport. Best quality air dried western red. Reasonably priced.

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## gavin

Anyone else pleased to see bees flying again?  My Magnificent Seven were out relieving themselves in numbers today and many were taking full advantage of the drifts of snowdrops sitting agape across the estate.  For a change there were snow, snowdrops and flying bees all happily coexisting.  Some of them are powerful colonies which will boom when the OSR comes along.

A quick peek at the association's bees tells me another small nuc has gone, and quite possibly more will before things turn in April, but with 8 surviving colonies varying from strong to weak we'll have enough for our purposes.

The local willow has been showing some silver for a couple of weeks so spring really is on its way.  Just as I was leaving the association apiary David in Edinburgh sent me a picture of their bees on flowering cherry.  Scotland is waking up again.

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## Bridget

Went out to remove the snow/sun shades from the hives this morning and found the ladies out and about already.  Still a bit chilly I thought at 6 degrees but the snow has gone from here.  No sign of snowdrops or anything else much.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1360940080.143811.jpg


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## gavin

> Went out to remove the snow/sun shades from the hives this morning and found the ladies out and about already.  Still a bit chilly I thought at 6 degrees but the snow has gone from here.  No sign of snowdrops or anything else much.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1360940080.143811.jpg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It was 9C here, enough to entice quite a number out.  Not as warm as exactly a year ago to the day (12C) when, remarkably, I had my last session with a camera and snowdrops at the apiary.

Here are the bees today:




but the pictures a year ago were much better!  My excuse is that the sun had gone in when I got there.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...nowdrop-pollen

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?209-Snowdrop-frenzy-at-the-apiary

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## drumgerry

Still a few patches of slushy stuff here but the bees were out in good numbers at mine today.  Just cleansing flights - not a hint of pollen to be seen on them yet.  Or maybe I wasn't watching for long enough.  Does the heart good to see them up and about though!

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## Poly Hive

Things are moving along here but am having woodpecker problems, one has decided that drilling into the supers holding the fondant is amusing. The odd thing is I cannot see the payback for the work. Each hole has missed the bees and the fondant so the beak is ending up in the air space. I will post pics of the damage and the repair method. 

PH

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## drumgerry

Bummer!  The only woodpeckers I see around here are the black and red spotty jobs - don't seem to bother with the hives though.

Was watching your spanset video last night PH.  Had to move a couple of hives yesterday and my ratchet straps have played up for the last time - I've hated them ever since I got them years ago.  When I got to the destination I unceremoniously took the knife to the b*****ds instead of undoing them!  Now I need to buy some new straps and it'll be spansets for me!

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## Bumble

The wet weather has driven our green woodpeckers away. There aren't many ants in waterlogged soil.

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## GRIZZLY

We're too far north for the green jobs - we've got two families of the greater spotted woodpeckers which feed on our bird feeders. They don't bother my hives at all. We've had them for at least 6 years.

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## gavin

Great spotteds just seem to be getting more and more common, nice to see.  It is because they are so willing to come to bird feeders?

A few years ago I regularly heard green woodpeckers (aka yaffles) on the estate where I keep my bees, but perhaps Bumble is right and wet summers don't suit them.  We've had a string of those.  They'll (green woodpeckers not wet summers) still be around on the drier slopes of the the Sidlaw Hills where the short grass, s-facing slopes and nearby wooded burns and copses suit them.

I've seen them at various places up the A9 and apparently they get as far as Inverness.  I've never heard of them bothering bee hives in Scotland but I'd be surprised if it never happens.  They do look a bit sparse in Galloway.

_From:_
http://data.nbn.org.uk/gridMap/gridM...MSYS0000530763




New theory: Are pure Amm just too feisty to allow Green Woodpeckers to co-exist?!

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## Jon

The advance party is already here.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/expert...s_ireland.aspx

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## gavin

> The advance party is already here.
> 
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/expert...s_ireland.aspx


Nice that you have some Great Spotteds but you could really do with Greens as well.  That call is a wonderful thing to have around.  Always cheers me up.

http://www.wildechoes.org/joomla/ind...kers&Itemid=62

Although I have to say that sitting in a boat on a Highland Perthshire loch, trout rod in hand, with the mists clearing and half a dozen of these calls echoing all round is not so bad too!  The 'drumming' call here:

http://www.garden-birds.co.uk/birds/...woodpecker.htm

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## Jon

I have seen a lot of woodpeckers in Mexico.
There must be at least 20 species.
There is one I see locally on the slopes of the Volcano, Strickland's woodpecker, a high altitude fellow.
I have seen them at the edge of the tree line at 12,000-13,000 feet.
There is another monster of a thing, the Lineated Woodpecker, I have seen a few times in Chiapas at the edge of the jungle

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## gavin

I can see who would win in a battle between a lineated woodpecker and a Paynes polyhive.

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## Jon

It is quite a shock the first time you see one of those.
The first one I saw was at the mayan ruins at Palenque.
I have never seen polyhives in Mexico.
They all seem to use wooden langstroth.

bees-volcano..jpg

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## fatshark

> (snip) and wet summers don't suit them.


Ironic considering an old name for the Green Woodpecker is "rain bird" ... as well as Laughing Betsey, Yaffingale, Yappingale and even Jack Eikle.

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## Bumble

The green ones weren't too bothered by the wet summer, but the rain didn't stop and it looks as if a good few ant colonies might have drowned, which is quite carelss of them when you think about it. They normally retreat underground for winter and go back into their anthills in spring. The big wood ants are probably okay, although some might have needed to swim a bit. The birds will have just moved away to some higher and drier ground, they'll be back soon to pair up for Spring.

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## Dark Bee

I saw frog spawn not long after Christmas this year, ie early January. There have been a few daisies flowering all through the winter and I noticed buds on the hydrangea bushes last November - they are slowly opening. Mull over that  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## GRIZZLY

Had a male G.S.Woodpecker eating crusts off the ground under our bird feeders this morning. We seem to have two pairs in the garden , hammering on the trees in our wood and coming down to the bird feeders for peanuts . All the bee colonies flying strongly today and bringing in some pollen - either from the snowdrops or the whins.Realy good to see.
Did you see any Sapsuckers in Mexico Jon ?

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## Jon

I have seen the yellow bellied

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## GRIZZLY

Good job we don't see themover here !

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## EmsE

I got a text yesterday from the farmer whose land my bees are on to say that the lid was off one of my hives. They'd tried to put it back on, but the bees were flying for them. My friend went down to put the lid on and said that the ratchet strap had been completely undone, the roof was to one side and the crown board was to the other. Oh and it was the colony that can be rather feisty. I can only guess that they got a big surprise & learnt a valuable lesson. Thankfully it has been dry recently too.

Whilst I'm annoyed that the colony has been disturbed and was without a lid for possibly up to 2 days , it's a relief it wasn't knocked over, or even worse, stolen.
So, padlocks for the ratchet straps or CAUTION! Signs on the hives?

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## gavin

Or even a new site.  If someone was interfering with them, don't you think that they'll be back?

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## EmsE

I'm hoping it was some naive person walking their dog in the field and  curiosity just got the better of them. We've had no problems before and the dog walkers do tend to avoid that corner of the field. If it happens again though......

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## fatshark

> Whilst I'm annoyed that the colony has been disturbed and was without a lid for possibly up to 2 days , it's a relief it wasn't knocked over, or even worse, stolen.


While out walking at the w/e I came across a dozen hives in a very sorry state ... Miller feeders in place, but no roofs, large gaps between brood and floor or supers (askew) or simply knocked over.  Incredibly about half of them still had bees in (it was warm enough for a few to be flying).  I don't think this was vandalism ... I suspect simple negligence.  I tidied them up a little and am trying to locate the owner.

On a brighter note ... it was warm today and every hive had flying bees, including one I'd pretty much given up on - the entrance had been blocked for at least a month in mid-winter and it was total carnage once I got round to replacing the floor.

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## Calum

Really lovely today, the bees were very busy on snowdrops, hazel and crocuses some colonies have a brood nest that fills half a frame on the largest frame already. Snow and-10 c forecast for the week coming so no supers on yet, but its a joy that the season is about to kick off again! Good luck everyone!

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## Bumble

I think we will need the good luck. Icy winds here, and snow not far away. I wish I hadn't left the fondant above the crown board.

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## Black Comb

Yes same here. I did this on a few for the first time this year and the small colonies that have died got isolated.
Back to on top bars in future.

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## drumgerry

-6 last night and 3 inches of snow on the ground. Come on Spring get your act together!

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## Poly Hive

I have no idea who promotes this business of fondant over the CB. 057.jpg046.jpg As you can see there is evidence of a furry visitor in the Paynes box which goes to show they have managed to design in (for goodness sake) rodent access which other makers manage to design OUT. Grr mutter and said box is as of Spring downgraded to a bait box, all it is fit for. 

PH

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## GRIZZLY

I thought you were a Swienty man PH

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## Calum

> I thought you were a Swienty man PH


That's fighting talk where I come from...

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## Poly Hive

I am: but I was given a Paynes to trial it. I think they regretted that....LOL

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I have no idea who promotes this business of fondant over the CB.


But PH, I don't understand.  There is no crown board that I can see ...  I'm clearly missing out on some subtleties here. 




> ... a furry visitor in the Paynes box .... rodent access which other makers manage to design OUT. ...PH


I see Paynes now sell their boxes with entrance blocks but I suppose, like me, you received yours without one.   If it was a wooden hive you would have told the beekeeper to put a mouseguard in front of the entrance - so why didn't you do that with your Paynes?  I don't think you can entirely blame Paynes in this instance - but yes, most of the other poly hive designs have entrance blocks that keep the mice out.
Kitta

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## drumgerry

I think a standard entrance block doesn't work with Paynes polys if you want to fit a mouseguard.  It needs one which is double depth so that there's not a gap in at the back of the mouseguard for the little buggers to use.

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## Mellifera Crofter

I've never used mouseguards, so I don't understand the problem, Drumgerry.  I just make sure that the entrance is about 6mm high so that mice don't have access.  Here's a photo of my Paynes with entrance block.  The photo was only meant as a private reference to me about those dead bees - so, pardon the artistically skew hive on the photo.
Kitta
IMG_4228.jpg

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## drumgerry

Kitta  - I'm probably really stupid in thinking a standard entrance block wouldn't work!  I guess you just don't push it all the way inside the space.  With the setup you have there a mouseguard would work fine.

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## Poly Hive

For the simple reason the design of the brood box does not enable the usage of a normal mouseguard and with many other things to keep me busy I didn't get round to modding one to fit. There should be NO need for an entrance block for a poly, the entrance should be 8mm and so the issue is designed out. KISS Manufacturers who produce units needing entrance blocks are missing the point. 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

Not stupid,DG - I had lollypop sticks handy, so it was easy to add hooks to an entrance block.  Without hooks the block will just disappear out of sight into the hive.

Ideally, yes, PH - a poly should be well designed from top to bottom, but I've still got to see one.  The entrance design was one of Paynes hives' shortcomings.

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## Bumble

> I have no idea who promotes this business of fondant over the CB.


A touch of insanity on my part, probably.

Interested to know how you protect the top of your fondant from drying out as I can't see anything in the pictures. Assuming you've taken whatever it is off, so you could check and take picture.

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## GRIZZLY

To stop your fondant drying out, Just cut away one side and leave the rest of the plastic in place. Use it with the exposed fondant in contact with the bees.

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## Poly Hive

I put on pretty hefty chunks (4kgs or so) and nothing on top usually, the bees use what they want and what remains is then turned into syrup. KISS

PH

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## Calum

I really need your advice on a serious problem:

I have suspected for some time now that my wife has been cheating on
me.

The usual signs, if the phone rings and I answer, the caller hangs
up and she goes out with the girls a lot.

 I try to stay awake to look out for her when she comes home but I
usually fall asleep.

Anyway last night about midnight I hid in the shed behind the honey extractor.
When she came home she got out of someone's car buttoning her blouse, then she took her panties out
of her purse and slipped them on. 

It was at that moment crouched behind the extractor that I noticed a
hairline crack on the leg bracket.



Is that something I can weld or do I need to replace the whole
leg?

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## gavin

> A touch of insanity on my part, probably.


Not at all.  If the colony is of decent strength, it will be raising a modicum of brood and there will be warm moist air rising over the cluster.  In such hives they will easily cross the gap to fondant on the crownboard and take down extra.  If it is really weak then I'd put it straight on the top bars and face the mess of fondant glued to the the bars in spring.

Calum: I'd get a new one!

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## Jon

> Is that something I can weld or do I need to replace the whole
> leg?


You married to Heather Mills?

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## Poly Hive

Depends to what standard you can weld really....

The fondant does not "weld it's self to the top bars" it is pretty easy to slide a hive tool under t and it comes away in a lump I find. 

When it is seriously cold then putting the winter feed over a CB is in my view pretty dangerous. I would not endorse that move at all. A ventilated floor should be coupled with insulation over the CB and under the roof. It is how the research was done into better wintering so to have the one and not  the other is not necessarily best for the bees. 

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

What bothers me about the hive in your photo, PH, is the big huge empty space above the bees' heads - unless you've covered it with something.  I think that's what Bumble was asking about.

I do use crown boards because I don't want them to have to heat up all that extra space above them - but the feeding holes are quite large so, in effect, the candy is still on top of the frames, and the candy is covered with a see-through tub - then on top of that the insulation.  I prefer the polycarbonate crownboards so that I can see where the bees are.  In one hive they've moved, so I quickly replaced the crown board with another with three feeding holes so that I can open the one above their heads if they've moved again.  I'll try to be better prepared for next winter.  (I guess, PH, you'd probably say that's not KISS.)
Kitta

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## Jon

> What bothers me about the hive in your photo, PH, is the big huge empty space above the bees' heads - unless you've covered it with something.


That colony looks like less than 2 frames of bees in a large box with a large eke on top.
Whatever way you do it I would remove at least 90% of the space there to give the colony more of a chance of pulling through. You could probably squeeze that colony into a Kieler.

----------


## Bumble

> What bothers me about the hive in your photo, PH, is the big huge empty space above the bees' heads - unless you've covered it with something.  I think that's what Bumble was asking about.


Yes, that is what I meant as well as the fondant being uncovered.

My fondant is above the crowboard and contained by a shallow kinsgpan eke, then there's thick polystyrene insulation under the roof. I cut each 12.5kg block in half and put one piece in each hive without taking it out of the oriingal polythene wrapper, so it wouldn't dry out. I didn't have (couldn't find) an eke for one colony, so used a super and packed the space above teh fondant with some polystyrene in a plastic bag. The fondant in that one is double wrapped, with an extra polythene sheet above it - there was a good reason at the time, but I can't remember what it was.

I don't really know why I put it above the crownboard, it's gone on the frames before and I've scraped it off and packed it away for later. It was probably listening to the club elders, whose cedar-dwelling bees are apparently far hardier than my poly-hive softies.

Calum - gaffer tape will fix most things!

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## Poly Hive

LOL there are actually a lot of bees in those colonies. Kieler my backside I'd like to see it tried. The space please remember is enclosed in poly not wood. Listening to club elders is good to a point but they dinna know much about poly. There are really only a handful who do, Murry McGregor being one, and Hamish Robertson another. Murray uses the same method for some of his which is to upturn a poly feeder and put the fondant under it. 

I know which two boxes I photoed so I will up date on here or on my site as they progress. I have absolutely no concerns, and neither will you in a few years time. 

PH

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## Jon

The worst thing a colony can have at this time of year is a huge amount of extra space.
That eke is really deep.
How many frames are occupied with bees?
Appearances can be deceptive but that looks like a very weak colony.

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## brothermoo

I couldn't sleep last night thinking of my bees having to come above the correx crownboard to get their fondant. It is in an upturned deep take away container over a porter bee escape sized hole.. the eke is actually a secondary rose hive box (190mm deep) 
Is this too much, it was all I had at the time  :Confused: 
Should I put some insulating material between the feeder and the wooden crownboard?
__________________
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## Jon

I insulate my colonies with a 50mm square of polystyrene above the crownboard.
I put insulation inside the lid of my correx nucs as well as there is a space of about 2 inches between the top of the frames and the underside of the lid. Just a piece of polystyrene faced with correx 18 inches by 10.
It is always a good idea to close down as much space as you can and then give them more space bit by bit as they start to expand.
You need to adjust the size of the box to the size of the cluster to some extent especially if the cluster is small.
Not in cold weather though.
In the autumn if I find smallish clusters I reduce the space by removing about 3 or 4 frames and replacing them with insulated polystyrene dummy frames.

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## gavin

Ah .... we can't possibly advise you if you've gone for a Rose hive!   :Wink: 

My blocks of fondant are in spare empty supers (sometimes empty brood boxes).  If I have one to hand I put a sheet of Kingspan over the wooden crownboard, but if the colony is strong enough I don't obsess about it if they don't get one.  In the past I also put smaller pieces of polystyrene sheet into the super above the fondant but don't bother now.

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## gavin

> In the autumn if I find smallish clusters I reduce the space by removing about 3 or 4 frames and replacing them with insulated polystyrene dummy frames.


Good policy - and of course you can fumigate the frames in a box in a bin bag with acetic acid so that they are more or less free from nasties.

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## Jon

> Good policy - and of course you can fumigate the frames in a box in a bin bag with acetic acid so that they are more or less free from nasties.


I do that with everything which is taken out of the box every spring time whether through a dead out or just removed as surplus to requirements.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I couldn't sleep last night thinking of my bees having to come above the correx crownboard to get their fondant. It is in an upturned deep take away container over a porter bee escape sized hole..   Should I put some insulating material between the feeder and the wooden crownboard?


I think you're doing more or less that I'm doing, but as I said above, I prefer to use a crownboard (or perhaps I should say 'feeder board') with larger openings - but I do add insulation above the feeder board and below the roof even though most of my hives are poly hives.  I use wool, but if you use something like Kingspan, then cut a hole in it to fit over your container.  With the insulation in place, I think your bees will find their way to the candy.  See Gavin's post number 818.




> ... My blocks of fondant are in spare empty supers (sometimes empty brood boxes).  If I have one to hand I put a sheet of Kingspan over the wooden crownboard, but if the colony is strong enough I don't obsess about it if they don't get one.  In the past I also put smaller pieces of polystyrene sheet into the super above the fondant but don't bother now.


So, Gavin, like PH, you don't mind that big empty space above their heads?  Maybe your hives are in a more sheltered position than mine, but I like to keep mine as cosy as they can be.  Having that space above them surely means that they must employ more insulating bees around the cluster than if they had a proper ceiling immediately above their heads - so they'll require more energy to keep the space around them, and above them, heated.  Or am I wrong thinking that?
Kitta

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## Poly Hive

Who can say about right or wrong all I know is it works for me. And that is all, all, I am concerned about. As said I will monitor the two I posted the pics of, and you can judge yourself. As for wool.... never used it but off the cuff seems a damp trap and the whole point of poly is to keep them dry. If I can make a suggestion it is to read Mobus on over wintering on my site under Mobus. A very canny man.

PH

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## Bumble

> Who can say about right or wrong all I know is it works for me. And that is all, all, I am concerned about.


That's a good point to make.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Who can say about right or wrong all I know is it works for me.  ... As for wool.... never used it but off the cuff seems a damp trap and the whole point of poly is to keep them dry. ... PH


Sorry, PH, I'm not criticising, or implied that a space above their heads is 'wrong'.  I'm just trying to find out what other people do and why, particularly as I tried my best to avoid such a space.  As for wool, it's not a damp trap - just the opposite.
Kitta

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## GRIZZLY

I just made myself a set of 2in x 1in rims which sit on top of my poly hives under the roofs. I place the fondant directly on to the frame tops and replace the roof.NO extra insulation. I also don't  put the trays under the varroa floors as the bees seem to benefit from the ventilation. Despite our temperatures going down to minus 8 deg C ,so far all 15 of my colonies seem strong and  seem to have wintered well. The clear space above the brood doesn't seem to bother them at all.They have been flying and bringing in pollen ete at every opportunity.

----------


## Poly Hive

Another dismal week of weather forecast. Winter dear readers is far from over yet. 

PH

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## chris

Here, it's started snowing again. This year I'm selecting for bees on skis.

----------


## fatshark

More fondant on those that were running out ... far easier to do this very late in the day as it gets cooler. Many of the bees return to the body of the hive and those that don't can be encouraged with a gentle puff of smoke.  Then remove the old fondant container and place another on top. 30 seconds.  Even easier if you remember to leave a bee space sized gap between the top of the fondant and the lip of the container ...

Tried to snow again today. This time last year I was doing my first inspection in shirtsleeves.

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## gavin

Yup, what a change from this time last year.  Sleeting outside at the moment.  Checked fondant today on one colony - I prefer to use big dollops, either a half or a full box, none of this messing about with the wee Ambrosia packs.  It was a wee Ambrosia pack I was looking at this afternoon, a hive passed on from a local organisation that seems to be getting out of beekeeping.  Very small cluster but alive.

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## Jon

You have all stopped talking about woodpeckers but I just spotted this article.




> It's about eight years since the great spotted woodpecker started showing up in gardens along the east coast of Northern Ireland and now it looks like some of the birds may be considering starting a family in the city. That distinctive drumming sound has been documented in Belvoir Forest in recent weeks, signalling that at least one woodpecker there has romance on its mind.


Belvoir forest is about 2 miles from our Association Apiary

----------


## gavin

Time to get those bird feeders dusted off.  From the pics on the site it looks like you all had a pleasing St Pats Day parade - no flags perhaps but plenty of tassles and feathers?

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## Jon

I didn't get out of the house yesterday apart from 15 minutes walking the dog.
St pat let us down with the weather.
It rained nearly all day and it was freezing cold as well.
Spent most of the day painting a bathroom.
Undercoating doors today.

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## drumgerry

Just been out to look at the hives.  Would rather not have disturbed them but better that than let them starve.  The colony I had the biggest fears for has given up the ghost at last - I was pretty much expecting that to happen.  Plenty of stores and no obvious signs of nosema.  No brood whatsoever so my guess is they were queenless.  During the milder weather a few weeks ago they were the only colony inactive.  Any that were needing it today got a slab of fondant on the top bars.  The others are ok but a couple have only a couple of seams of bees.  If I'm lucky I should be able to bring them on assuming no queen problems.  But we need this bloody weather to get its act together!

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## Jon

Mine are the same Gerry. Loads of small colonies in need of decent weather and fresh pollen.
The weather would need to improve very soon but the forecast is bad all week.

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## brothermoo

We got a weather warning in work tonight, snow socks may be on the fire engine before the night is out! I'm not enjoying this weather so I'm sure the bees aren't!

__________________
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## Feckless Drone

Not good today on the east side of the country.

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## gavin

Five inches of snow where I am and the beginners class tonight cancelled ... 

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## wee willy

Just back from a walk with some other old codgers , bright but cold starting  but high cloud and temperature on the up  :Smile: 
WW


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## prakel

First tee-shirt day (well, hour) here in the balmy South today. But still a long way to go.

SAM_0892.jpg

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## gavin

> First tee-shirt day (well, hour) here in the balmy South today. But still a long way to go.


Sheesh! Must be warm, even the Buckfasts are outdoors ... 

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## prakel

> Sheesh! Must be warm, even the Buckfasts are outdoors ... 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


She aint a 'proper' one but I suppose a distant ancestor might have been!

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## GRIZZLY

Well, S.W Scotland has finally caught the bad snow !. We're well and truely snowed in  with the wind piling drifting snow all round the house. Our wind speed is approaching 40 mph and fine powdered snow has filtered into our woodshed , covering everything inside to a depth of 6 inches. We also had a brief power cut last night but fortunately thats been put rught. I'm not going to look at the bees because - like captain Oates " I might be sometime coming back". I think Jon has somewhat similar conditions over the water.

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## Jon

Yep. Same here 40 miles to the west. Horizontal driving snow.

This time last year it was over 20c.

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## Neils

Eek.

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## Trog

Blowing a  hoolie here but no snow; just grey.  A few snowflakes drifted around aimlessly earlier but it's too warm for them to settle.  Glad I finished digging the onion plot yesterday while it was still sunny and dry (albeit cold).  Put some syrup on two colonies yesterday as I can guarantee nobody will be out robbing for a day or two!  Others still have candy and living bees near it ... but how many, other than the ones I saw at the feed hole, I've no idea!

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## Bridget

Forecast here for 135mph gusts on the top of Cairngorm.  Here it's just cold, windy with snow flurrys.

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## gavin

Digging?! You'd need a hovercraft to get on most land around here. 

Today our regular morning March snowfall was unusually light by recent standards.  However we have a bitterly cold Scandinavian hoolie to end all hoolies. A three-brick hoolie, only I'm not going anywhere near an apiary today.

If any Tayside bees survive this winter they must have special properties (or a special keeper of course). 

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## Trog

Only 25mm rain all this month - very dry so ideal for digging, even if the wind's been a bit cold from time to time.  Most of the month, though, we've had lovely sunshine and quite warm out of the breeze.  The bees got out to the hazel, whin and snowdrops but haven't been out much recently due to low temperatures.  I see the first of the pussy willow's out now but it's late arriving this year.  Hope it warms up soon so the bees can enjoy it.

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## gavin

> Only 25mm rain all this month - very dry so ideal for digging, even if the wind's been a bit cold from time to time.  Most of the month, though, we've had lovely sunshine and quite warm out of the breeze.  The bees got out to the hazel, whin and snowdrops but haven't been out much recently due to low temperatures.  I see the first of the pussy willow's out now but it's late arriving this year.  Hope it warms up soon so the bees can enjoy it.


Did manage some digging early in the month when we had a dry spell, but since then the only time I would have walked on the allotment soil was when it was frozen solid.  At lunchtime it was still covered in icy snow.

Looks like we're heading for another year of East-West differences .....

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## Bumble

> Looks like we're heading for another year of East-West differences .....


And north - south, if you include this far south. We're paddling again.

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## wee willy

Looking through the lounge window into the fading light! A blizzard driven by gale force winds !
Last weeks frenzied pollen gathering long forgotten.  :Frown: 
WW


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## The Drone Ranger

Rape crop problems England/Wales 

Wonder what Scotland will be like

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## gavin

I suspect that it will be OK on the slopes, but any crop on the flat, low, poorly drained land is at risk. 

Interesting that the article predicts an increase in spring rape, though still a small area compared to winter OSR.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks a lot for the fix and the info Gavin
I think it might be an interesting season if this weather keeps up
Last year was horrible because in the early part there was a spell of warm weather switching to wet
That affected the bees themselves in a disruptive way they were all suited and booted with nowhere to go
This year the bees might be in tune with the weather but the early rape might not be so early ?

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## Poly Hive

Look for pigeon damaged OSR. Tends to be later which is a help. Spring OSR yields poorly, mind you these days winter OSR is not so great either. The days of 8 weeks flowering are sadly gone. 

PH

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## GRIZZLY

What weather !, 8 foot high snow drifts completely surrounding the cottage and then no electricity for 3 1/2 days.Could only get out thro' the front door and took until now to dig round to the back door. Still havent managed to get thro into the back garden to check on the bees. The council digger cleared a narrow channel along the road which was completely filled with snow from hedgetop to hedgetop. He then kindly dug thro'  the 20 feet  of high drifts blocking us in. Managed to drive into town to replenish our dwindling stores. I recon I've got another 60 feet of digging to go thro' before I can see how the bees have fared. I'm pleased I managed to get some candy on  before this lot set in.

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## gavin

Wow!  Take care John.  

Do you have pictures?

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## GRIZZLY

> Wow!  Take care John.  
> 
> Do you have pictures?


I stil am struggling putting pictures on the web. Yes we've got a lot of pictures.If you email me your web address I'll send you the pictures and you can put them on the web for me , if that's allright.?
Perhaps if you email the instructions I might be able to post my own photos in future.

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## greengumbo

> I stil am struggling putting pictures on the web. Yes we've got a lot of pictures.If you email me your web address I'll send you the pictures and you can put them on the web for me , if that's allright.?
> Perhaps if you email the instructions I might be able to post my own photos in future.


Wow good luck.

I seem to be in a microclimate of snow but not as bad as that ! Aberdeen and the immediate surround are clear but we had another 3 inches last night only 13 miles out. Birds going mad for seed this morning and fieldfares back in the garden.

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## GRIZZLY

Auchnotteroch1.JPGAuchnotteroch10.JPGAuchnotteroch8.JPG  Hi Gavin, my computer literate wifey has managed to upload the photos.

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## gavin

Goodness me, that is quite something. Thanks John, and Mrs Grizzly.  The mild SW mustn't be used to such treatment especially in late March.  I'll bet the bees are mostly fine.

I asked at our Dundee meeting last night about winter losses so far and they didn't seem too bad yet, as far as folk were aware. One had lost three from five.

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## Trog

Wow!  So much for the gulf stream!  Hope the bees are OK, Grizzly.  I agree last year was worse with the hot March then wintry April; however, our lot have had very few days when cleansing flights were possible this winter. I'm not looking forward to opening up the hives when the weather permits.

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## GRIZZLY

Finished digging at last.Slight thaw now.  Some bees completely burried under snow but o.k. after being dug out. Small amount of flying going on. Lost quite a few fruit trees crushed under the weight of snow. Lost no bees yet however.

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## greengumbo

Just had a coffee break wandering around the local botanic gardens. You could kid yourself it was spring out there today ! Watched bees working the crocus and hellebore like mad. Lovely stuff.

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## Trog

Lots of activity around the hive entrances today despite the cold wind.  Hope they're not just busy robbing each other!

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## Bumble

Good luck Grizzly, and anybody else who's been snowed in.

Too cold here for bees to be doing anything other than huddle round the fondant - I hope.

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## greengumbo

> Just had a coffee break wandering around the local botanic gardens. You could kid yourself it was spring out there today ! Watched bees working the crocus and hellebore like mad. Lovely stuff.


Ah well I knew that would be short lived. Snow snow and more snow. Here I was all armed with my macro lens and tripod for todays coffee break  :Frown:

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## gavin

> Ah well I knew that would be short lived. Snow snow and more snow. Here I was all armed with my macro lens and tripod for todays coffee break


The day started really sunny here but it is going downhill fast.  Yesterday's lunchtime stroll took me to the patch of hellebores where I often see my first bumble bee.  The flowers are only just coming out, about a month later than last year.  No bees, too cold (.... no ... was about to do a neonic joke there but I really shouldn't).  

The cherry plum trees (regrowth from rootstocks from old trees in the orchard) have buds showing white, ready to pop right over the bees.  Willow trees have been waiting patiently for their day in the sun.  Snowdrops aren't even done yet.  Spring is going to come (one of these days) in a big rush.

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## Bridget

Feels warm in the sun after -8 degrees last night but its really only -2 and never got above 5 degrees yesterday with a cold east wind so no flying here yet. Crocus all bashed by the snow but the resilient little snowdrops still perk up each day.

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## greengumbo

> The day started really sunny here but it is going downhill fast.  Yesterday's lunchtime stroll took me to the patch of hellebores where I often see my first bumble bee.  The flowers are only just coming out, about a month later than last year.  No bees, too cold (.... no ... was about to do a neonic joke there but I really shouldn't).  
> 
> The cherry plum trees (regrowth from rootstocks from old trees in the orchard have buds showing white, ready to pop right over the bees.  Willow trees have been waiting patiently for their day in the sun.  Snowdrops aren't even done yet.  Spring is going to come (one of these days) in a big rush.


There was a speaker at the WBK convention last week, Tim Sparks (http://www.zoo.cam.ac.uk/zoostaff/csg/sparks.html). 

Gave a great talk on phenology and the coming and going of the seasons. The past two decades have shown that spring is significantly earlier than ever before (in recorded records!) but that this year was a massive outlier  :Frown:  

Really cool research methods as well.....checking the leaf coverage on old successive photos of trees behind the cenotaph in london on rememberance day, people recording when they hear the first cuckoo while sitting on an outside dunny near their house. Some brilliant wee individual stories about those of us with slight OCD that record everything - beekeepers must be amongst the best/worst for that ! 

He reckons it will come with a boom and be spectacular this year. Hope so !

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## Jimbo

Just back from one site where I have polyhives. Warm in the sun but no bees flying. On checking all OK with the bees huddled under their bags of sugar. If fact most of the sugar bags were untouched so they were not needing it.

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## Trog

Plenty of bees out and about today (though from the way they were flying past me I wonder if some of their stores have maybe fermented!).  Still too cold to lift lids but the forecast's good for the next week or so.  Five lifted out of the horse's bucket after going for a swim.

One sign of spring: first butterfly of 2013.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

Your are swimming at this time of year -- wow

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## EmsE

It's been a beautiful bank holiday weekend (but chilly out there). Finally we've managed to get out in the garden as its not been frozen or waterlogged. My raspberry canes have just begun to show signs of sprouting leaves- I'm normally harvesting the leaves at this time of year for the wine.

It was 5 degrees at midday when we visited the bees and one still came across the field to the car with us :Big Grin: . I'm expecting my garden to jump into fast forward to try and catch up on its self once the weather starts to warm up. Will the bees do the same?

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## Dark Bee

The early afternoon here in Shamrockshire was quite pleasant, there was definitely a feeling that spring was here. Then the east wind started blowing again and it became bitterly cold once more. If we get a little rain and milder weather there will be a growth explosion here. If your bees are healthy and have a vigorous queen they will build up rapidly, nature is marvellous in it's ability to compensate.

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## The Drone Ranger

> . My raspberry canes have just begun to show signs of sprouting leaves- I'm normally harvesting the leaves at this time of year for the wine.


EmsE
The field where I keep my bees is still covered in snow !!
How do you make raspberry leaf wine in your tropical paradise ??
I'm partial to a drop of wine but thought berries or something was the min requirement

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## Neils

Down in the balmy, tropical south, everything is poised. The cherries are out and a few dandelions right now but not much else. It's still around 5-7 degrees during the day, but the sun is out and while the wind is nippy it's pretty low.

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## EmsE

Hi DR,

I've just followed a bramble tip wine recipe using young raspberry leaves instead. http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/bramble.asp

It does give a lovely delicate wine and to make an extra special version of it, I'll add 3/4 pint of red grape concentrate.
When the roses are out on the cycle path then the fragrant petals make the best wine and it matures quickly!

Ps. I only boil them for 20 minutes, just long enough to kill the bugs.

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## gavin

Sounds like my pal Ron has competition.  He does rasps the usual way but does shin up the local oak trees to do a leafy beverage.  I should drag you along to see the place sometime when you're over.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR,
> 
> I've just followed a bramble tip wine recipe.


Thanks for the link I might give it a go  :Smile: 

Gavin
My Grandfather lived at the Horn Farm close to where the winery is now and I went to Errol primary school with a lad Gillies it wasn't a winery then just a farm

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## gavin

Jings! Ron, Mickey, the one with the shed business?

Was surprised to find my 6x grandmother was from Errol.  Lived there 24 yrs myself.

You can come too when I drag Ems along.

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## Bumble

> but does shin up the local oak trees to do a leafy beverage.


Is the brew any good? 

I've got the oak trees and I've got the demijohns, all I need is the recipe.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Jings! Ron, Mickey, the one with the shed business?
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


I think he was called Richard 
I was between 6 and 10 so 50 to 55 years ago .  :Smile:

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## EmsE

> Is the brew any good? 
> 
> I've got the oak trees and I've got the demijohns, all I need is the recipe.


There are a few recipes on line http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/oakleaf.asp
but I've not tried them yet for oak as the leaves are too high on the oak trees near me and shimmying up a tree just aint gonna happen!!! I did try birch leaves instead (just need to sit on the shed roof) but decided that it took so long to pick the leaves it wasn't going to be a regular brew. From memory, I think it tasted ok.
Of course, coming from the Rhubarb triangle, it'll soon be time to get my staple wine on the go.

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## EmsE

> Sounds like my pal Ron has competition.  He does rasps the usual way but does shin up the local oak trees to do a leafy beverage.  I should drag you along to see the place sometime when you're over.


Do they do tasters :Cool:

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## Dark Bee

Some rather nice childrens drinks being described on the forum these days.


"At the foot of the hill
there's a nice little still.
Which fills the air 
with a perfume rare.
And ' twix both me and you
..........................................."

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## gavin

> Do they do tasters


Of course! You might be one step ahead of them with your rhubarb though - don't remember that flavour on offer.  *Now* I know what to do with that rhubarb coming up on the allotment.

G.

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## gavin

So, it briefly reached 8C today.  The snowdrops are overlapping the willow and it is all a month or more later than some recent years.  Red squirrels have spread into the estate - very nice to see.



Did you notice that mouse guard hanging off?



I had six colonies with such a mouse guard rather than an entrance block, and four of them are now off, a couple completely.  Their removal has been in stages overwinter.  What would do that?  The drawing pins holding them in seemed firm in October.  Woodpeckers?  Hedgehogs?  Foxes?  Something with a penchant for slightly whiffy dead bees accumulating on the floor?

Mice have been in.  I can't see them being strong enough to wrest the front door off its hinges, so to speak.

This one has 6+ seams of bees that appear to be on brood-raising duties (a good size of cluster), plus some fondant which has softened and dribbled down the edge.  And a row of mouse droppings at the side.



Whereas this one has more mouse damage with big flakes (comb destruction) and lots of droppings.  The bees are hanging on and should build to a decent colony as long as she's not a drone layer.



Not looking in to check though - far too cold for lifting frames.  I should get mesh floors on them all.  I've much less idea what's going on over the solid floors.

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## Neils

I had something similar on one of mine last year with the mouse guard being removed. I put it down at the time to someone trying to be helpful as it was removed entirely and lying in front of the hive entrance. There was no other sign of disturbance in the hive.

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## Feckless Drone

Hi - how lovely to see those pictures Gavin. Now, do still have geese on the estate? Never seen mention in any books of geese as presenting a problem with an interest in the bees but maybe they like the odd thymol scented - acidic taste of a worker.

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## wee willy

Drawing pins aren't the most secure of fixings , an hour of sun expanding the metal mouse guard will loosen the pins, strong winds up through omf will eddy on exiting through 10 mil holes in mouse guard. It takes surprisingly little to dislodge a mouse guard so affixed !
VM 


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## Black Comb

Agree John.
I always put one in the middle as well as one at each end

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## gavin

The floors have the correx sheets in and are in a fairly sheltered spot.  Don't think it was the wind. Geese are indeed possible.  Still some left though numbers have been slowly declining overwinter. Is the demise of the geese the fox or possibly the sea eagle I mentioned on the BKF? 

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## chris

Just back from checking an apiary, and in front of a hive,dead, was a royal eagle. 1m90 wingspan, no visible wounds.A real beauty.

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## greengumbo

> Just back from checking an apiary, and in front of a hive,dead, was a royal eagle. 1m90 wingspan, no visible wounds.A real beauty.



Poisoning ? Carbofurin would show the throat area skin as blue. Bit of a problem with it up here at the moment.

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## greengumbo

I collected a few WBCs for free from a beekeeper today who said I could have them. Big things but lovely looking. They don't look that much of a hassle to work with compared to what I have heard, other than having to remove the liffs which are not heavy. Not for me but for a wee garden project nearby.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Just back from checking an apiary, and in front of a hive,dead, was a royal eagle. 1m90 wingspan, no visible wounds.A real beauty.


You are just kidding right??
It might be just a drone or something Varifocals can do that sometimes

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## GRIZZLY

My poor old bees are still struggling to find pollen.The whins are still buried under feet of snow. Lot of snow/ice damage to trees and shrubs.  They are all still flying actively tho'. Only lost one so far,was a late swarm so probably had a failing queen. Died with plenty of food left in the hive. Waiting for the weather to warm up 'cos I've got to Baily comb change a couple of colonies from 16x10's to National poly hives. We get Sea Eagles down here but havent touched my hives so far !!

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## gavin

These eagles could be the ones picking off the mouse guards (and the geese).  They probably do it on purpose so that they can come back and get the mice later.

Smashing bird, pity to hear of its demise.  In case anyone is curious ..... l'aigle royal, en anglais, c'est 'Golden Eagle'.  Chris has been away too long!

Our white-tailed (or sea) eagles dwarf the goldens: wing span up to about 2.4m (8 feet).  You don't want to be gadding about in the orchard in a (small) deer suit when they're around.  Didn't know that they reached Galloway.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Rare ,but I've seen the odd one following fishing boats in the north channel. Had Peregrins chasing the neibours pigeons  around my hives tho'.

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## Trog

Don't want to swank (well OK I do) but they're common as muck round here.  This photo posted on Tobermory Otter Fund's facebook page7 sea eagles.jpg That's 7 sea eagles on the beach!

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## The Drone Ranger

So that's where they all go on holiday

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## gavin

So - does anything pick off your mouse guards .... and, have you ever tried dressing up in a small deer costume and prancing about in the paddock?!

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## Neils

One of these do you?

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## Trog

No to both, Gavin.  A couple of the nearest sea eagles came and took a look at the hens but I have more problems with buzzards as hen-killers (usually just one rogue buzzard gets a taste for hens now and again).  Oddly enough hen harriers never bother them and although the regular peregrine causes the cockerels to sound a warning, he's more of a problem for other birds.  I have to check the hives every morning in case the deer have used them as scratching posts.  (When our B & B ad says 'wildlife on the doorstep' it's no exaggeration; the deer even chomped the primulas in a tub on the doorstep!)

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## gavin

The buzzards on the estate were making themselves unpopular by knocking off a pheasant a day at one stage.  Seemed entirely reasonable to me that such a predator helped itself to the easy meals on offer.

Neil - that must be a goldie.  I can't imagine anyone having a sea eagle on their arm and still remaining upright.

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## greengumbo

seaeagle.jpg

Here is a picture of one of my friends who is involved in the tagging of white-tailed eagles around Scotland. What an amazing job (if you have a head for heights!). Pretty rank smell in that nest though  :Smile:

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## gavin

See - a couple of half-sized sea eagles under each arm and he has to sit down.  What a cracking job though.  Just hope that he changes his breeks before he goes home.  Looks as happy as a pig in sh%!.

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## fatshark

> Pretty rank smell in that nest though


He could have waited ... 

Sorry

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## brothermoo

Removed the remnants of a colony from the eaves of a house today.. reached a balmy 10degrees so I finally went for it (owners selling it, so wanted it out asap).

Didn't know what to expect but it turned out to be a small cluster left on loads of comb. Luckily enough my dad lifted a comb out with her majesty sitting on it.. I thought I was going to have to use a cone to get the bees and lose the queen.

They are in a polynuc with 2 frames of stores and a tray of fondant, probably overkill but these Aw the only live bees I have  :Wink: 
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## Neils

Fingers crossed BM. Have they got any space on the combs with stores for the queen to lay?

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## brothermoo

Oh aye one frame is full but there are 2 half frames of stores so she can lay there. Here's hoping!
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## Jon

Nice one.
Bound to be the first cut out in NI this year.
Did you drive it home with the siren on?

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## brothermoo

:Big Grin:  if only I was allowed to put one in my car!! 

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## Neils

Today I've been in optimistic mode, putting together supers and making up frames.  For once I've actually got too many super frames and not enough supers made up to keep an empty one on top of each hive as is my preference so it's been mostly putting supers together. There is a sense of satisfaction watching the big pile of unassembled kit in the box in the garden starting to go down though, I might even get to a stage where I can move some stuff out of the shed and get to the freezer again  :Smile: 

This year I've decided to ditch nails and use screws instead. Far easier to take things apart again if something goes wrong. I'm still using wood glue anyway as it only takes a sharp smack with a mallet to break the glue seal.  despite drilling, countersinking and then screwing (with a single drill) it still feels like a lot less work that using nails, bonus all round.

First, lone bee patrolling the garden looking for forage also spotted, just in time for the rain to come back again  :Frown:

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## The Drone Ranger

We Had Sleet ....again !!
More tea vicar  :Smile:

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## EmsE

Another beautiful day here (sorry DR  :Embarrassment: )  & the bees were flying well, bringing in lots of pollen.  One of my hives is in a sun trap so we managed to get the queens clipped & marked. The hives are in the brick base remains of an old green house ( about waist height) with the ground surrounding the hives covered black weed membrane and you could feel the warmth from it. In combination it really makes a big difference to the apiary in the corner of the turf field where it was too cool to  open the hives.

If anything, we could do with a bit of midnight rain just to ensure the trees have enough juice for the spring flow

Edit: and we spotted our first bumble queen in my garden today :Cool:

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## Bridget

> Edit: and we spotted our first bumble queen in my garden today


I saw an enormous bumblebee yesterday when my bees were out and about in the sun. (  Snowed all day today).  How do you identify a queen bumble bee Emse

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## wee willy

Queen bumbles are huge in comparison with the workers , Drones are smaller than workers !
WW 


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## mazza

> I saw an enormous bumblebee yesterday when my bees were out and about in the sun. (  Snowed all day today).  How do you identify a queen bumble bee Emse


At this time of year it's only the queens that will be going about, as they have been hibernating over the winter and are only just starting to look for suitable nest sites.  You won't see workers until at least June as the queens are still the primary worker for the colony until then; and once the workers are numerous enough to be able to forage the queen will stay in the nest and concentrate on laying brood. The workers and males are a lot smaller, and a lot of the species' males have yellow tufts on their heads. There is a lot of information available (including id guides) on the bumblebee conservation trust website

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## EmsE

Those enormous bees that look they couldn't possibly stay airborne  :Smile:  but absolutely beautiful.

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## greengumbo

Snow on the ground again this morning. Will it ever end. Was reading the Scottish beekeeper magazine over brekkie and getting increasingly bored by the pesticide stuff. Is the magazine now a propaganda device ? Endless letters but some nice stuff on a "healthy hive" which cheered me up.

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## gavin

Including one letter writer that says that he 'appreciated the respectful tone of the debate' then three paragraphs later accused 'one of the scientists' of failing to mention that there are 'proven risks' and also failing to mention that 'the particular neonicotinoid used to treat the winter oilseed rape that he is so keen to see continued is NOT one of the ones that the EU are proposing to bring in a 2 year moratorium on. This too he failed to mention.'

Hardly a respectful tone, and also a little confused as the scientist did mention bumble bee concerns and the seed dressing neonics *are* the ones the EU tried to get agreement to ban.  I think that part of his confusion comes from hearing about thiacloprid, the bee-friendly one now used to (sometimes) control pollen beetle.

I have it on good authority that the scientist concerned is 'so keen to see' the proper application of science and a balanced view of eliminating risks versus permitting efficient crop production, rather than wish to protect neonicotinoids per se, but that sort of nuance seem lost on some.  

Nigel isn't taking sides.  Send him decent prose on the topic - or any other relevant one - and he'll publish it.

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## drumgerry

Yep - not one of the SBA mag's finest issues this month but credit to Nigel for not taking sides.  It's been said a million times before - all of this Neonic stuff is a complete smokescreen to distract from the real problems facing bees and other pollinators.  Habitat loss, monoculture etc etc.  It frustrates me no end that all of the funding/research is being thrown at this one area when there's so much else that could be done to make the lot of the bees a happier one.

Ps - GG no snow over here this morning and it looks like Spring might actually get underway come the weekend!

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## The Drone Ranger

I would like to see a chalkbrood survey

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## prakel

Way too much neonic stuff cluttering the place up at the moment. Practical beekeeping has got to be far more interesting but it looks like the vociferous minority have achieved their goal and hijacked the bee forums; it's great when you can get the gullible to do your work for you. 

Reading these forums is now like wading through treacle in concrete boots.

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## Jon

And some of the anti pesticide campaigners are not even beekeepers or at best have a marginal interest in bees.
Guys like Murray McGregor who make their living from bees must be pulling their hair out as agendas pushed my marginal pressure groups could adversely affect his livelihood. A ban on seed treated oil seed rape would be likely to greatly reduce the acerage sown.
Given that turkeys rarely vote for Christmas, his interests are probably closely aligned to the interests of bees in general although bringing in imports is certainly a risky business in my opinion.

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## GRIZZLY

Here we go again!. No sooner than our snow melts and the temperatures go up slightly - DOWN COMES THE RAIN accompanied by high winds. I'm now desperate to get into the bees as I need to change a couple of colonies into nationals from 16 x 10's (Baily comb change) and then transfer the lot into poly hives. I need to do a disease check as these 5 colonies have been partially neglected over the last couple of years.They need to be put on varroa floors then be treated with Apivar to see what their mite burden is. I know for certain they weren't O.A.'d at christmas by their previous owner. They have however been flying very strongly, bringing in loads of pollen. My bees back at home don't seem too bad following their burial in 6 feet of snow. Ive now got to keep everything crossed for a couple of good days of weather.

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## Trog

A bit warmer here today and we've had some rain at last.  Checked all colonies still had candy/frames to clean out above the crown boards then went back later when the sun came out for an hour.  All flying strongly and bringing in 3 types of pollen.  Pussy willow, dandelion and probably gorse.  Judging by the heavy landings by some of the the non-pollen ones there was some nectar to be had, too.  One of these days I'll be able to do the first spring inspection but I learnt all I needed to know for the time being without interrupting them ...

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## nemphlar

Someone towed mull to the med? even the weeds are struggling round here. Spring will need to really go to catch up this year though there is a cupful of frogspawn in the pond

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## Trog

We had frogspawn back in February but nearly all of it dried up.  Last night I was surprised by 12 singing frogs in the back pond and wondered if the females are able to produce further eggs if it's obvious to them that the first batch have failed.  Sure enough, there's a new patch of frogspawn in amongst the small tadpoles from the earlier batch.  (The tag line for a local Italian restaurant here is/was 'Mull on the Med'!!)  Much nicer than the Med, though ... less crowded!

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## The Drone Ranger

> We had frogspawn back in February but nearly all of it dried up.  Last night I was surprised by 12 singing frogs in the back pond and wondered if the females are able to produce further eggs if it's obvious to them that the first batch have failed.  Sure enough, there's a new patch of frogspawn in amongst the small tadpoles from the earlier batch.  (The tag line for a local Italian restaurant here is/was 'Mull on the Med'!!)  Much nicer than the Med, though ... less crowded!


12 singing frogs from Mull http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpevZ0-wUYQ

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## GRIZZLY

Charming D.R.  Are you sure it's not the mull of Kintyre ?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Charming D.R.  Are you sure it's not the mull of Kintyre ?


Oh No ! Doesn't Paul McCartney own mull ?
clanger!
http://www.freewebs.com/1969clangers/w1.htm

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## Trog

Mulligan's Tyre (as a famous DJ used to call it) is well south and east of the Isle of Mull ... and it's mainland.  Surprising how many folk get mixed up!  For that matter, I wonder how many people try to do day trips to Iona and Staffa from Kintyre?

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## Neils

Today was a complete washout. I had grand plans to at least swap out floors and maybe take a peek under the crown boards. That said, second hand reports continue to arrive that hives that I was sure weren't/aren't going to make it are flying.

I've been critical before about the degree of worry that some posters on forums have over their bees. My continued experience is that they're hardy little buggers with an amazing capacity to surprise.  That said I'm still not counting my chickens though the queen in one hive survived two of my attempts to introduce a new on because she was obviously dead so the winter/spring should be nothing  :Big Grin:

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## Bumble

> Today was a complete washout. I had grand plans to ...


We're thinking of turning the whole of our garden into an organised bog, instead of the disorganised and churned up patch of mud it's become. Today's rain has put parts of it under an inch of water, again.

The BBC did tell us it was going to 20C tomorrow, but that's been downgraded to 15C. The Mail is telling us to get our barbecues out.

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## The Drone Ranger

weather readers --can't believe a word they say
Or that McCartney did you know he's been lying about owning mull ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-11510428
now he's been caught out he's getting shot
Apparently he thought it *was* an island and was amazed to find that you need water on *all* sides to be classed as one

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## Trog

Some folk regard islands with bridges to the mainland as no longer being islands - see Hamish Haswell-Smith's wonderful book on The Scottish Islands - Skye became a mere appendix!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Some folk regard islands with bridges to the mainland as no longer being islands - see Hamish Haswell-Smith's wonderful book on The Scottish Islands - Skye became a mere appendix!


If that bridge had been there in the 1700's Bonny Prince Charlie would have been caught and Camilla Macdonald wouldn't have a margarine named after her
Apparently a very good nosema treatment for combs etc is UV 
I'm looking at the fish tank lamps
Can't depend on sunlight

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## Dark Bee

> If that bridge had been there in the 1700's Bonny Prince Charlie would have been caught and Camilla Macdonald wouldn't have a margarine named after her...............................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ...............


Was it not Flora MacDonald? I visited her grave once in the north of Skye, it was WINDY. I was amazed the steel braces could keep her gravestone upright. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Jon

You may be making the deadly mistake of taking DR too seriously!

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## The Drone Ranger

> You may be making the deadly mistake of taking DR too seriously!


Sadly I'm beginning to think you are right  :Smile: 

Worryingly Dark Bee is the only person who spotted my Flora MacDonald blunder  --What does that say about the state of Scottish beekeeping ?
P.s who *is* the Margarine named after? could it be Flora Nightingale the lady of the lamp?

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## Trog

(Well, I got your joke, Droney!)

However, wasn't the Lady of the Lamp called I-can't-believe-anyone-could-possibly-think-it-was-butter Nightingale?  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> (Well, I got your joke, Droney!)
> 
> However, wasn't the Lady of the Lamp called I-can't-believe-anyone-could-possibly-think-it-was-butter Nightingale?


Yes Trog that's the one and thanks for digging me out of a hole with my previous gaffe
No wonder lovely gentle monoped Heather Mills had enough of McCartney 
He claimed he owned mull(Bet he tell all the girls that)
Turns out he only had a farm on kintyre 
Heather was right to dump him, he wouldn't even install an escalator in his private jet, the bounder

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## gavin

By some strange coincidence we had a Heather Mills staying with us some weeks ago.  I counted her legs and am certain that she was a biped.  Didn't raise the question of whether Paul had mislead her over the holiday home location.  In fact we never talked about him at all.

Today was threatening to be spring, but it changed its mind.  Nevertheless, in a rush of enthusiasm I opened some hives.  They were bringing home the cherry plum pollen and big light yellow gobs of willow in the afternoon after the sun came out for a while.  The first one surprised me - 8 frames of bees and a lot of brood raising going on.  I should have known, that one has almost polished off its 12.5kg of fondant as well as its stock of Glen Isla heather honey.  The second had about 7 frames of bees and the third has maybe 5-6. It complained loudly that I was lifting their roof off and sent a brave soul to inject me with venom and invite me to retreat.  That one had been raising brood but had more or less stopped for a while then recently the queen has been laying eggs again.  For the others I just lifted the lid and had a quick peek.  Between 5 and 8 frames of bees in each of the 6 survivors.  Saw worker brood in four, decided to leave the last two in peace as it was getting chilly but they had been bringing in pollen.  All should be well in my apiary in 2013.

The association bees are a different matter.  Really weak colonies which will take forever to build up to something decent.

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## Dark Bee

> You may be making the deadly mistake of taking DR too seriously!


Not at all :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Prince Charles and Camilla trysted in Nelsons County. I just felt the need to impress the more illustrious and famed contributors by announcing I had visited Skye. Anyone know where is the McCrimmon school in the Winged Isle?  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Dark Bee 
The information about Flora MacDonald's gravestone would have got hundreds of points on QI, very impressed
lately I've been googling Camilla furiously       (with little success re Nelsons county)

Sorry about the error in the Heather Mills post I may have been thinking gastropod
Fortunately there wasn't anything else which might be considered offensive sorry Gavin
Good news on the bee front
 impressed by your restraint not quizzing heather about Paul

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## marion.orca

Dark Bee - do you mean the MacCrimmon school ? It was a piping college at Borreraig, near Dunvegan on Skye and the MacCrimmons were pipers to the chiefs of Clan MacLeod. Not there now though if you were considering enrolling !

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## Jon

> LOL there are actually a lot of bees in those colonies. Kieler my backside I'd like to see it tried. The space please remember is enclosed in poly not wood. Listening to club elders is good to a point but they dinna know much about poly. There are really only a handful who do, Murry McGregor being one, and Hamish Robertson another. Murray uses the same method for some of his which is to upturn a poly feeder and put the fondant under it. 
> 
> I know which two boxes I photoed so I will up date on here or on my site as they progress. I have absolutely no concerns, and neither will you in a few years time. 
> 
> PH


Any update on this colony?
I have seen a lot like this recently and very few are likely to survive without a serious amount of attention.
I have some in apideas as I reckon this is the best way to keep the queens alive until more bees are available later in the season.

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## Dark Bee

> Dark Bee - do you mean the MacCrimmon school ? It was a piping college at Borreraig, near Dunvegan on Skye and the MacCrimmons were pipers to the chiefs of Clan MacLeod. Not there now though if you were considering enrolling !


Thank  you Marion, I was in fact enquiring on behalf of Mr. Drone Ranger, to help him recover from his infatuation with Camilla. He has abandoned beekeeping in favour of alpacca breeding and I though that perhaps playing the coel mor would be quite therapeutic for him. I did check that Ireland was a long way from Scotland.

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## gavin

> Thank  you Marion, I was in fact enquiring on behalf of Mr. Drone Ranger, to help him recover from his infatuation with Camilla. He has abandoned beekeeping in favour of alpacca breeding and I though that perhaps playing the coel mor would be quite therapeutic for him. I did check that Ireland was a long way from Scotland.


DR does live out in the wide and under-inhabited wide valley called Strathmore, so a spot of pipery wouldn't annoy too many neighbours.  There are dangers though. A colleague who collaborates on a current project is a piper.  I have to sit to one side of him as his left ear hardly functions at all now.  When you learn which one is defective it is a simple task to decide whether or not you wish him to follow the conversation, and choose your pew accordingly.

These alpacas are charming creatures, at least in picture form.  We sometimes mount displays on the origin of potatoes, so maybe one day I'll be seeking a loan of a couple.  The very same people who domesticated the vicuña also gathered wild potatoes on their travels up and down the Peruvian Andes.  In those days you had to freeze-dry your spuds high on the mountain, trampling them underfoot in the late morning after they had frozen solid overnight.  Maybe they even engaged their alpacas in the task, pre-history wasn't too good at recording such detail.  That trampling squeezed out some water.  Before long, your wild, poisonous spuds had dried.  However they were still poisonous, so the next stage was to soak them in a pond or stream for a few weeks.  Once you re-dry your spuds you have a nutritious product which is light and will keep forever if stored dry (we have some bought in a market in the 1960s).  Grind it up and, well, see below.  There are lots of things you can do with it.

So, these alpaca domesticators migrated up and down the mountains with their stock, gathering and replanting wild spuds.  From there it was but a small step to replanting the tastier, non-poisonous variants and before you know it you've domesticated the potato as well.  Now that you have *real* productivity, you can have settlements, villages, and before you know it whole civilisations with their own particular takes on life.

Of course to make the better combinations of genes in those spuds you need bees to shift pollen around from one plant to another, and there we are, I'm back on topic.  

These guys seemed to think that their freeze-dried potato was the latest in technology, but I'm not so sure.  Funny how these things go in circles.

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## The Drone Ranger

Lots of QI points for your post Gavin 
there's more to potatoes than meets the eye
A sort of potted history  :Smile: 

Black bee is right I need some new interests 
Piping might be risky those guys get some incurable lung fungus for starters
The folks here at the asylum think macrame

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## gavin

There is indeed.  I'll bet that the world's first stovies were made from vicuña/alpaca and spuds.  Maybe one day I'll give you more on the fascinating story of the spud.

On the other hand the Andean peoples didn't have iron until the Europeans came by to pillage their rich heritage including their genetic resources, so how would they do that?  There's only so much you can do with pottery, cooking pits and animal hides.

While I'm on a roll, how about this for a remarkable link across the cultures?  Top one is the Andean version, the pre-European versions didn't have the iron foot.  Bottom one is the tool our ancestors used once we borrowed the potato.  Were we using something similar before the potato arrived?

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## The Drone Ranger

Fishing is a fine hobby
Here's Bill Dance showing how its done 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjxXrVsojC8

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## gavin

I was driving something very similar to Mr Dance today.  Part of our bean planting activities.  Back to potatoes tomorrow .... thankfully, as my back can't take any more of what it was doing today.

Then ... on Saturday .... back to some kind of bee activity (well, you have to try .... ).  We're inviting our beginners to come and play with equipment given that opening hives doesn't look like being sensible.

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## Dark Bee

Gavin, 
Thank you for information on the origins of the potato. It was interesting. I was reading recently that someone here is growing the potato type that failed during the 1840's famine. Incidentally the gentleman in the black and white photo seems to be using a wooden spade, or should I go to Specsavers?

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## gavin

I believe it to be a cas chrom, (our) gaelic word for a foot plough, narrower than a spade.

Lumpers? Fortyfold?  I'd save the space for that great Irish potato, Rooster. 

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## The Drone Ranger

Opening hives weekend Gavin>>Saturday 45% chance rain>>Sunday 98% forecast might change again though
Is Rooster a new potato or have they just re-branded an older variety --like pink lady apples

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## gavin

> Opening hives weekend Gavin>>Saturday 45% chance rain>>Sunday 98% forecast might change again though
> Is Rooster a new potato or have they just re-branded an older variety --like pink lady apples


We have a bunch of beginners desperate to get stung, and had earmarked Saturday for the purpose.  So we'll clean and paint and hammer and nail instead, and if the wind drops and the sun comes out maybe we'll open a hive after all.  The main hands-on day will be postponed until spring does properly arrive.

Rooster was bred by Harry Kehoe (like most Irishman, a most entertaining man to spend time with) and that tells you it isn't an old variety.  Rather flavoursome I reckon, and multipurpose.  Comes from a cross involving Pentland Ivory and a breeding line.

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=gavin;17526]I believe it to be a cas chrom, (our) gaelic word for a foot plough, narrower than a spade.

Lumpers? Fortyfold?  I'd save the space for that great Irish potato, Rooster. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE


In Irish it would be "cos chrom" - literally a bent foot or crooked foot. The lumper was the famine potato. I did not know that the "rooster" was an Irish potato. They are for sale in every shop here.

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## Jon

The Rooster and the Kerr's Pink are my favourite spuds.
How long has the Rooster been about Gav?
I have only noticed it in the shops for a decade or so.

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## Trog

> Fishing is a fine hobby
> Here's Bill Dance showing how its done 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjxXrVsojC8


I assume all those mishaps are deliberate?  If not the man's a liability!  For me, the best fishing involves a walk of varying lengths across wild country with a fly rod and several home-made flies.  Or a long walk down to a river that might just hold a salmon or seatrout.  Or a trip out to sea with a boat rod ... not much chance of any of that today  :Frown:   Or, returning desperately to topic, opening a hive!

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## gavin

It gained Plant Breeders Rights in 1991 but didn't really take off as a variety until the early 2000s. 

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## Jon

> It gained Plant Breeders Rights in 1991 but didn't really take off as a variety until the early 2000s. 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


That figures. It has become very popular recently.

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## GRIZZLY

Still prefer the good old fashioned King Edward for flavour and versatility - grows well here too.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I assume all those mishaps are deliberate?  If not the man's a liability!  For me, the best fishing involves a walk of varying lengths across wild country with a fly rod and several home-made flies.  Or a long walk down to a river that might just hold a salmon or seatrout.  Or a trip out to sea with a boat rod ... not much chance of any of that today   Or, returning desperately to topic, opening a hive!



Bill Dance isn't messing up deliberately he's an American fishing guru lol!

Here's another example of his genius

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqLbQp4xZVs

Rained all day here again  :Smile:

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## Jon

> Rained all day here again


Same here. Depressing.
looks to be a bit better tomorrow.

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## Trog

Wind n rain all day here.  :Frown: 

Still, it'll bring the rivers up ..  :Smile: 

But at this rate I'm going to have to feed the bees  :Frown:

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## GRIZZLY

Sunday seems to be the day for inspections - sunny with light winds and warm. I'll believe that when it happens. Heres hoping however.

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## The Drone Ranger

deleted for reasons of harmony

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## gavin

Having downgraded Saturday's beginners visit from a hands-on(-bees) session to a play-with-hammers-and-brushes session, I'm now nervously eyeing the forecast for the *next* Saturday and at present that's not looking too good either.

I have to say that I'm proud of the forum today (again!).  I saw DR's post while away on business and fretted about issuing a 'please ignore an invitation to get political' notice but you're all better than that.  No doubt we all have our own opinions on the lady just buried but they don't belong on here.

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## Dark Bee

> ..................................................  ................... No doubt we all have our own opinions on the lady just buried but they don't belong on here.


I concur and may the dead whoever they might be, rest in peace. Amen.

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## The Drone Ranger

Fair enough post gone

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## gavin

Saw some OSR on my travels today.  It was filling out nicely, perhaps at the stage you would have seen in March in previous years.  Only some of that field though, much of it was stunted and some of it non-existent.  It is just within range of my bees but there is a closer one which I didn't pass today.

However the cherry plum is most definitely out and there are leaves starting to show in some of the trees and bushes at last.

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## gavin

Thanks DR.  Some topics are just too hot even for SBAi.  

Now .... back to the banter ....

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## greengumbo

Saw my first swallow of the season this morning and our elder and hawthorn are leafing now. Excellent. 

Saturday looks nice up our way.

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## Neils

Spring is coming! A balmy 15 degrees here with sunshine! But too windy for me too want to open them up. This is my hive with a polycarbonate crown board and I can see there are a few more bees than last time I looked but its still only 4-5 frames of bees. The hive was also pretty light so in lieu of syrup I've given them another pack if fondant as insurance as there's still a lot of stuff yet to brave the elements.

Tomorrow I'll brave a look at the allotment and take stock up there and change the other floors over and maybe hazard a peek under the crownboards.

I parked the car next to a cherry tree in full blossom and while I was getting a clean floor out of the car it dawned on me I could here buzzing. The whole tree was absolutely teeming with honey and bumble bees.

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## GRIZZLY

At last !. Managed to go thro' 5 colonies in my out apiary. Three were absolutely booming with slabs of brood and lots of stores of sealed honey and pollen.The other two quite tiny , still with stores but small patches of sealed brood with eggs and larva. These were inherited from an ex ass'n member who got fed up with his bees and virtually abandoned them.Shame realy as the bees are very docile and friendly. I'm going to re-hive them in poly hives, treat them against varroa and coddle them a bit.The booming colonies are going to need supering a.s.a.p. The bees are about 1 mile from 100 acres of rape so should produce something when the rape grows and blooms. We went to look at the rape and I recon it will be at least a month behind last years crop. The trees are showing very slight inclination to swell buds so I think Spring will come in with a bang.

----------


## Trog

I probably should have been doing the bees today but tied 3 new flies last night with my friend and we were itching to try them out.  Did take time to note that bees were flying well and bringing in pollen and to hope that they would be ready for the bonanza that's just around the corner now that the garden's decided it really is spring.

----------


## Neils

And just to try and get a picture or two



For a pic taken on the phone I'm actually quite pleased with this one, an hour or so after moving the hive a couple of feet and finally getting it onto a higher stand as I think they get a bit damp on the pallet where they are.

----------


## prakel

@Neils; a very uniform looking gang of bees.

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## Finno

> I believe it to be a cas chrom, (our) gaelic word for a foot plough, narrower than a spade.


Still off topic - known as a "loy" in Ireland from gaelic "láighe".  Chrom element in Scottish gaelic name would describe the handle - crom = twisted or bent. Go here to see one in use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za3HAjcLpHU 

Finno

----------


## drumgerry

At last managed to properly get a look at my colonies this afternoon.  Bit of a mixed bag really.  9 colonies ranging from little to no brood to 4 frames  of brood.  Pollen sources available round here practically non-existent yet which might explain the very limited brood rearing.  You get the feeling things will kick off big time once Spring properly starts.  On a plus note saw a single willow catkin laden with yellow pollen this afternoon.

----------


## wee willy

More vandalism!
Hopefully they got their just desserts!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...0-insects.html
WW


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## Mellifera Crofter

> Still off topic - known as a "loy" in Ireland from gaelic "láighe".  Chrom element in Scottish gaelic name would describe the handle - crom = twisted or bent. Go here to see one in use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za3HAjcLpHU 
> 
> Finno


Do you know if anybody still makes, and sells, loy spades, Finno?
Kitta

----------


## Dark Bee

> Still off topic - known as a "loy" in Ireland from gaelic "láighe".  Chrom element in Scottish gaelic name would describe the handle - crom = twisted or bent. Go here to see one in use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za3HAjcLpHU 
> 
> Finno


Would it be accurate to say that use of the loy was confined to the western part of Shamrockshire and elsewhere the spade was used? I never even heard of of one until I read Synges "Playboy of the Western World". Thanks for the link, it was an interesting video to watch.

----------


## Finno

ion.ie/contact/contact.html[/URL]



> Do you know if anybody still makes, and sells, loy spades, Finno?
> Kitta


You might like to contact some of these people, they probably could advise.....http://www.loyassociation.ie/contact/contact.html

Finno

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## Finno

> Would it be accurate to say that use of the loy was confined to the western part of Shamrockshire and elsewhere the spade was used? I never even heard of of one until I read Synges "Playboy of the Western World". Thanks for the link, it was an interesting video to watch.


Was especially used on hilly land and on heavy soils where horse drawn plough could not be used. Heavy drop forged spade of similar shape was used until very recent times - the back of the implement provides powerful leverage.  A marvelous implement if one if breaking new ground for cultivation on ridges or "lazy beds" in the garden. Ridges are very suitable method of cultivation on heavy wet soils. Modern spades for use in suburban flower beds are absolutely useless. Hard work - probably the guy who first called them "lazy beds" sat on horseback and never turned a sod in his life!. 

Finno

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## greengumbo

Lots of preparing ground and sowing of wheat in the fields around me this week. 

Swallows back and checking out the woodshed  :Smile: 

Getting bees in mid-may ! I have my combs from last years hive that have capped honey and a bit of uncapped - they and the hive have been acetic acid fumigated. Should I just chuck em out or re-use ? Prob not worth the risk I thought.

----------


## Jon

Unless you had AFB they should be fine to reuse as the acetic acid will have killed any pathogens present.

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## GRIZZLY

Getting bees in mid-may ! I have my combs from last years hive that have capped honey and a bit of uncapped - they and the hive have been acetic acid fumigated. Should I just chuck em out or re-use ? Prob not worth the risk I thought.[/QUOTE]



They should be o.k. if they've been fumigated.  Beware
unsealed honey tho'-  could ferment and cause disentry.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks for the link, Finno.  I've now also learned about 'lazy beds' and watched a few videos of people making them using spades.  The loy or chrom looks so much easier.
Kitta

----------


## prakel

Been interesting to see over the last few days the dramatic difference between colonies on the coast and those a few miles inland. A month between them at the moment.

----------


## Jon

Which part of the UK is that prakel?
Mine are at least 2 months behind where they were last year - brood rearing only really started in April.
I doubt if I will need to get out the supers until the end of May at the earliest.

----------


## gavin

I presume that you mean that the coastal ones are more advanced?  There are signs here that those nearer the east coast wintered less well than those further inland - but if mine are anything to go by low-lying and sheltered means that they are off to a better spring than some others.

----------


## prakel

> Which part of the UK is that prakel?
> Mine are at least 2 months behind where they were last year - brood rearing only really started in April.
> I doubt if I will need to get out the supers until the end of May at the earliest.


Jon, Dorset. Mine are still (on average) behind what we've come to expect for this time of year but I think that may be where some of the problem lies -we've become accustomed to the bees getting an undue head start from the amazing Springs that we've had over the last few years. The good colonies are probably well placed for a build up which is in tune with the local 'wild' forage. I've been pleasantly surprised this week (having seen the position of the others last week) with most having 5-8 md combs of brood, with drone rearing well advanced and showing very strong pollen collection.




> I presume that you mean that the coastal ones are more advanced? There are signs here that those nearer the east coast wintered less well than those further inland - but if mine are anything to go by low-lying and sheltered means that they are off to a better spring than some others.


Gavin, no! It's actually the inland colonies with perhaps a more stable climate (spared the constant sea wind) which are well ahead of the others. The colonies close to the sea have in most cases only started laying in the last two weeks. There's one (only the one) which hasn't even started yet even though the colony 'feels' right and the queen looks right. Not very scientific. I'm pretty sure that a little syrup will kickstart her....failing that I've got spare overwintered queens waiting for a new home.

----------


## susbees

Not sure that mine are going to be that different to last year on the home apiary (650 feet). I don't stimulate with syrup, just add fondant anytime after Dec if needed. But getting into the bees at all would be good! Can see us torching boxes and scraping top bars, changing out combs, swarm collecting and (theoretically) queen rearing all at the same time at the rate of progress. Damson and cherry just breaking bud and blackthorn still sulking. Bit of movement on the sycamore and hawthorn leaves at last...

----------


## prakel

> Not sure that mine are going to be that different to last year on the home apiary (650 feet). I don't stimulate with syrup, just add fondant anytime after Dec if needed. But getting into the bees at all would be good! Can see us torching boxes and scraping top bars, changing out combs, swarm collecting and (theoretically) queen rearing all at the same time at the rate of progress. Damson and cherry just breaking bud and blackthorn still sulking. Bit of movement on the sycamore and hawthorn leaves at last...


Hi, for clarity... I'm not normally into adding syrup at this time of year either but in this case it's an expediant to see if I can jump start what I still believe to be a good queen but if not then it's curtains.

The copious blackthorn on Portland is also just breaking bud but again, inland it's showing good flower. I reckon that the May should be out for June...

On the bright side of things, I notice that the willowherb is 6" tall now.

----------


## Bumble

> I presume that you mean that the coastal ones are more advanced?  There are signs here that those nearer the east coast wintered less well than those further inland - but if mine are anything to go by low-lying and sheltered means that they are off to a better spring than some others.





> Gavin, no! It's actually the inland colonies with perhaps a more stable climate (spared the constant sea wind) which are well ahead of the others. The colonies close to the sea have in most cases only started laying in the last two weeks. There's one (only the one) which hasn't even started yet even though the colony 'feels' right and the queen looks right. Not very scientific. I'm pretty sure that a little syrup will kickstart her....failing that I've got spare overwintered queens waiting for a new home.


I've spent the last week or so driving backwards and forwards along and near the south coast, and visiting a few apiaries on the way. Those towards the south east are further ahead than those in the mid-south coast, those to the west of the Isle of Wight are slightly better again. Trees and hedges mark the difference too, hawthorn hedges were in leaf in Sussex a fortnight ago, still to get leaves near Southampton. Some oaks near Bournemouth getting leaves this week, none in Southampton. Further north they're *much* further ahead with poplars in leaf north of Winchester, and roadside apples coming into flower - after that I gave up looking and concentrated more on driving!

I don't know if the pattern follows soil type, with chalk doing better because it's better drained. There's a lot of clay around Southampton, the countryside still looks waterlogged.

----------


## prakel

Bumble, an interesting comparative. The comment about  things being much better further North (within reason) bears well with what I'm hearing from others. Not sure it's so much to do with drainage; doesn't take long for Portland to take on the appearance of a desert -albeit  somewhat windswept. 

As a small divergence from this topic, I have a well sheltered apiary on the side of a pond (used for growing tench for selling on) which is always further ahead, in the Spring,  than any other no matter what. I've always put this down to the easy access to water 'on the doorstep' failing that, I just can't explain the difference. Definate micro environment which is unduly good for Spring build up.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Just managed at last to "go thro" my bees yesterday. I got quite a shock at the number of dead bees in the bottoms of the boxes. The colonies are very small - all alive and with live queens. The queens seem to have only just begun to lay with some colonies stuffed with sealed stores from last year. I needn't have put candy on any of them , but had chosen to do so to be on the safe side. It was warm enough to manage to hive change them all into my poly hives with Apivar on them all to pick off any mites. I will have to remove a lot of their sealed stores to give the queens some laying room. The bees obviously suffered from the excessive bad weather - with being buried in deep snow adding to the problems.
Flowers and fruit tree blossom is now starting to look as tho' it might be showing - with hedges just starting to show some leaf at last. The grass isn't growing yet and with most of the local farmers struggling to make their silage eke out.
The bees on the apiary site I acquired from one of our ex ass'n members are further forward than at home - they are at an elevation some 400 feet lower than at home and are at a much more normal state of development for the time of year. All have queens which I found and marked with quite extensive brood on about 6 to 8 frames. They are also the most gentle bees I have ever come across - the don't run on the frames, don't harass you when you've got them open and are as black as soot. I will have to find someone who can do a wing test on them to see if they are A.M.M.  They could be worth breeding from.

----------


## Jon

Send me some samples and I will do the morphometry for you.
Ideally about 50 bees.

----------


## GRIZZLY

> Send me some samples and I will do the morphometry for you.
> Ideally about 50 bees.


thanks Jon P.M. me your address and I will do so.

----------


## Bumble

> Bumble, an interesting comparative. The comment about  things being much better further North (within reason) bears well with what I'm hearing from others. Not sure it's so much to do with drainage; doesn't take long for Portland to take on the appearance of a desert -albeit  somewhat windswept. 
> 
> As a small divergence from this topic, I have a well sheltered apiary on the side of a pond (used for growing tench for selling on) which is always further ahead, in the Spring,  than any other no matter what. I've always put this down to the easy access to water 'on the doorstep' failing that, I just can't explain the difference. Definate micro environment which is unduly good for Spring build up.


I don't know if there's a link soil type and drainage and plants waking up, but our garden is well behind those of friends who are on chalk or sand. It's still so wet that we're using pallets over the worst parts. The only thing that's beginning to show any leaves is a weeping willow, which is unusual because Elders are normally coming into leaf at the same time. Nothing else is showing.

Even though they're in dampish place, the bees seem to have come through. There's only been one day that would have been warm enough to open them, and I wasn't near the house that day. This week there have been heavy showers with sleet and hail.

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## Bridget

Heard my first cuckoo this morning,  Lots of sunshine, but rain forecast by lunch  and ice on the birdbath with a freezing wind so still unlikely to do my first inspection today.  :Frown:

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## Jon

Mine were all over my gooseberry bushes earlier on this evening

bee-on-gooseberry2-small.jpg

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## Neils

Just a call from a neighbour to say that the hive that looked fine the other week is now showing signs of dysentery on the front of the hive.  There were no signs at all the other week. Granted I didn't spend a huge amount of time with the hive open, it's still relatively nippy, but there was no sign of any problems at all. I took all the other hives away and they've been sat in the garden getting a good dose of Acetic acid since.

I'm going to wait until Friday until getting too down over it, there's always a chance it's a mistake but I'll be taking a bottle of thymol Syrup up with me just in case and if it doesn't look good then I might shook swarm them at the same time which would be a real blow to this year's aims.

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## The Drone Ranger

Would they survive a shook swarm Neils it's a bit drastic this early 
Mind you your weather is probably better than up here

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## Jon

Hang in there Neil and don't get discouraged.
This is a bad winter.
I know about 20 beekeepers who have lost all their bees and the majority of them are people who know what they are doing.

The most important thing at the moment is to reduce space in the small colonies using dummy boards.

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## Neils

Not sure if they're strong enough yet to cope with a shook swarm, they're a week away from 5-6 frames of brood emerging based on the only inspection I've managed so far.  I'm can't do anything before friday but I've plenty of spare kit ready and made up and there is also a chance that it might not be my hive that has the problem, either way we need to sort it out before it does become a wider problem.  It'll be two weeks since the last inspection and there was no sign at all of any problem in the hive, they were building up nicely, had plenty of brood, a flow was just starting and they were the bright spot in a miserable day of beekeeping (it's the hive in the photos I posted the other week). 

None of the hives I cleared away showed any signs of robbing though one of them was packed with (open) stores, though if other hives close by have had siimilar problems I guess it's possible they might have robbed a neighbouring hive and bought it in?

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## The Drone Ranger

I have split hives too early in the past years and lost both halves
It's a tough call 
Let's hope for a warm spell and a nectar flow

If the hive is building up well that doesn't tie in with them having serious nosema infection so they may well ride it out

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## fatshark

Just wandered down to the field to put another half litre of thin syrup onto the Bailey comb changes. Stunning evening, warm at last, not a breath of wind ... bees still active, with overloaded foragers crashing into the landing board.

At last  :Big Grin:

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## Trog

I had bees going mad on the dandelions yesterday - sunny but coldish wind.  Today is so cold I didn't even bother moving the plants I'm hardening off out of the greenhouse ... and chucking it down.  Still, the bees have something to keep them occupied after a good day's foraging yesterday.  Still haven't done a full spring inspection - just glanced at 3 colonies last week.

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## marion.orca

Same here Trog. Forecast not looking good for the next couple of days either - just itching to get a good look and my first inspection done - peace of mind is a wonderful thing !!

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## Bridget

> Same here Trog. Forecast not looking good for the next couple of days either - just itching to get a good look and my first inspection done - peace of mind is a wonderful thing !!


Same here - still no first inspection done and it's  blowing a gale, rain forecast and temps of about 9 degrees.  Have not seen them out since Monday.  Makes me even more determined to get a bee house built this summer.  I have been promised, most of the wood is here but HWMBO still on crutches after an ankle fusion op.  Plus he has plans to build himself a pizza oven!


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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...  Have not seen them out since Monday.  Makes me even more determined to get a bee house built this summer. ...


I wanted a bee house when I first started with bees, particularly because I live on such an exposed site.  It may allow you time to inspect the hives when the weather is bad - but are you going to keep your colonies limited to just the few colonies that would fit inside the bee house with enough space for artificial swarms when necessary?  This is my second year of moving my colonies in spring.  Yesterday I took five hives to a sheltered place by OSR fields - but same here: I haven't yet had a peek inside (apart from two hives).
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

I want a bee house
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObfKiuMm_wY
I love this chaps videos very amusing but not very PC

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## GRIZZLY

> I want a bee house
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObfKiuMm_wY
> I love this chaps videos very amusing but not very PC


Sorry DR but the page refuses to come up

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## madasafish

> Sorry DR but the page refuses to come up



Works with me: Chrome/W7

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## The Drone Ranger

> Sorry DR but the page refuses to come up


weird -- it comes up for me when I click it even in your post
Sorry about that grizzly if you search youtube for hedgerowpete and bees he has 41 videos to pick from
Makes me smile  :Smile: 
having a rain spell but just got spuds in the ground before it started
one job done 40,000 to go

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## wee willy

And me, chrome and mini iPad!
WW 


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## GRIZZLY

Came up in the end DR. I suspect its a glitch with our server. H. Pete is quite the comic isn't he ? Down to earth stuff tho'. Sunday looks as tho' its going to be non-stop beekeeping !.

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## greengumbo

Picked up a copy of "honeybee democracy" on Saturday and have built Seeleys Bait hive for putting out soon. The wife was a bit concerned with lemongrass oil arriving in the post....I think she thought I had gone a bit loopy.

Incidently it is a fantastic book. Anyone else read it ?

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## Jon

I was lucky enough to see him do a presentation on his work about how bees chose a new home a couple of years ago when he was in NI.
Best speaker I have heard.
Must get a copy of the book. It's pretty expensive isn't it.

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## Dark Bee

Not read it yet. But I have read "The Wisdom of the Hive", it made me wiser!. Seriously, I found it to be an excellent book and compulsive reading, my copy is now several years old. I don't know if it has been updated and republished or not.
I don't suppose there were any revolutionary innovations in the design of the bait hive?

Just discovered that "Honeybee Democracy" is available as an ebook, can't get a connection at present however. :Frown:

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## fatshark

I think "Wisdom of the hive" is out of print ... I've been trying to get hold of a copy but they tend to be frighteningly expensive.  Honeybee Democracy is excellent (and excellent value at about £12).

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## greengumbo

> Not read it yet. But I have read "The Wisdom of the Hive", it made me wiser!. Seriously, I found it to be an excellent book and compulsive reading, my copy is now several years old. I don't know if it has been updated and republished or not.
> I don't suppose there were any revolutionary innovations in the design of the bait hive?
> 
> Just discovered that "Honeybee Democracy" is available as an ebook, can't get a connection at present however.


I don't think there were any magic innovations on the bait hives. A box about 15" square with a 32mm circular entrance near the bottom, a nail across the entrance to stop birds getting access. Stick it up a tree 3-5m and add few drops of lemongrass oil. 

I think I got my copy for about £16.

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## Dark Bee

Thanks for reply, I shall use some national brood boxes as usual then! I keep intending to get lemongrass oil, one wonders if the local chemist (pharmacist) will have much in stock? :Wink: . There would one assumes, be limited demand for it in a small village  :Cool:

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## Black Comb

Holland & Barrett sell it.

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## greengumbo

> Thanks for reply, I shall use some national brood boxes as usual then! I keep intending to get lemongrass oil, one wonders if the local chemist (pharmacist) will have much in stock?. There would one assumes, be limited demand for it in a small village


I got mine from ebay, lots of sellers and it goes for about £2.

Anyone know what is in those "swarm lure" tubes that lots of people are selling on ebay ?

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## marion.orca

Would the crushed fresh leaves from the lemongrass in the garden work just as well ? Thinking along the lines that it is far more natural than something that has gone through a process to extract the oils.

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## Neils

> Not read it yet. But I have read "The Wisdom of the Hive", it made me wiser!. Seriously, I found it to be an excellent book and compulsive reading, my copy is now several years old. I don't know if it has been updated and republished or not.
> I don't suppose there were any revolutionary innovations in the design of the bait hive?
> 
> Just discovered that "Honeybee Democracy" is available as an ebook, can't get a connection at present however.


£24 in hardback from IBRA for those boycotting amazon  :Wink:  
On offer for a shade under £16 from amazon in hardback or £12.33 as a kindle version.

It is an excellent book for both Beekeepers and those just interested in bees.

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## Dark Bee

I went to the local village, chemist was closed, I forgot it was a bank holiday. I've just been reading on t'internet that lemongrass oil and citronella oil are one and the same.
Marion has asked if crushing the lemon grass in her garden would yield oil. There are apparently several dozen varieties of lemongrass, that which provides the oil may be different from the ornamental type. Malting barley and feeding barley look similar but the former will yield far more alcohol than the latter :Stick Out Tongue:  . Heat is also likely to be required in the production of lemongrass oil.

----------


## Neils

Had another quick look up at allotment apiary. I ran a full inspection on Friday and reports of dysentery look to be from the neighbours hive relieving themselves on mine. At least, there were no overt signs of problems inside and they seem to be building up nicely. We given every hive on site a dose of thymol syrup to be on the safe side as they're all pretty much a week or so away from needing supers. No drones yet though the first of the drone brood is being laid up.

From the disappointment of the other week I've reverted to inherent optimism that I think you need to keep bees. Finding eggs (and the queen) in the Nuc that had nearly had it is an encouraging sign though it is still weak.

On the nature reserve I had a good clean up and when I changed the floor over and moved the hive onto a higher stand as I felt the chalk brood that has plagued the hive since I moved it there might be down to the wetness of the area and the hive being low on pallets. Now I've managed to have a proper look year seem to be expanding up nicely and ill be swapping out a few grotty old combs for an empty, wired, frame for drones and a new frame of foundation. They're still quite small, covering 6-7 frames in total but they were lovely to inspect for a change and I do wonder if they're just all round healthier and hence happier being on that higher stand.

The dead hives have now had their two weeks of acetic and ill go through them later to see what frames, if any, are salvageable, the rest I'm going to test out my wallpaper stripper on and see if its up to the job of cleaning them out and recovering a bit of wax from, not to mention giving the frames a good steam clean.

The paynes poly I used last year I might have to chuck, it's been chewed and propolised possibly beyond repair and ill try and varnish the other one with something before I try and use it, for now it's somewhere to store spare frames.

I've not seen any drones at all yet which is a shame since moving to thicker gloves I'm not confident enough that I won't squish a queen. I did have a go trying to mark one this afternoon but I gave up in the end. Until I know for sure whether my sting reaction was a one off I'm not quite up to poking around barehanded or in nitrile gloves.

----------


## chris

> Would the crushed fresh leaves from the lemongrass in the garden work just as well ?


I use the leaves of Cymbopogon citratus. I just take a handfull and give the inside of the baithive plus the frames and landing board a good rub with it.It lasts about 4-5 days before needing, a *top up*. 
I have a spray of something called "charme abeille" which is supposed to work well, but I never used it after reading on the container; "highly toxic to aquatic life". Doesn't give the composition.

----------


## Black Comb

Neil's
Why don't you use one of these for queen marking. You never have to touch her. Just pop the tube over her and wait until she climbs up (may need to be a little patient) and then insert the plunger. There is a "stop" at the top which means you can't crush her. You can also clip as well if you like.

http://www.thorne.co.uk/queen/marking?product_id=4414

----------


## Neils

There's normally a crown of thorns in the shed but it must have got knocked off the shelf. So I thought I'd just pick her up, but the gloves are just that little too thick for me not to be scared that I'll incorrectly hold her and end up damaging her. She's in a Nuc, I can normally find them marked or not, I just thought it was a good opportunity to mark her  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> I have a spray of something called "charme abeille" which is supposed to work well, but I never used it after reading on the container; "highly toxic to aquatic life". Doesn't give the composition.


Probably contained Imidacloprid!

----------


## Bumble

> I've just been reading on t'internet that lemongrass oil and citronella oil are one and the same.


I don't think they are the same. We use citronella as an insect repellent, it doesn't smell the same as the lemongrass oil I put into bait hives. I bought lemongrass oil from Holland and Barrett. http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pag...ngrass&rdcnt=1

I have read, though, that you can use Lemon Balm _Melissa officinalis_ as an attractant, but I've never tried it.

----------


## Bridget

Just got a new flea/ tick collar for the terrier.  Ingredients :  imidacloprid and made by Bayer.  Luckily he won't be in too close contact with the bees

----------


## Dark Bee

I was dubious when I read it too. Citronella candles are used to keep insects away at barbecue time!

----------


## Jon

> Just got a new flea/ tick collar for the terrier.  Ingredients :  imidacloprid and made by Bayer.  Luckily he won't be in too close contact with the bees


Have you noticed if the birds fall from the trees as you take him for a walk?

----------


## Neils

Apparently they had to stop playing fetch because he'd run after the stick but by time he got there the dog had forgotten what it was chasing.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jon

If you take him for a run in the car it keeps the windscreen clear of midges.

----------


## Trog

Hello, the forum's gone all surreal again.  Must be something to do with that bright thing up in the sky putting in a rare appearance!

----------


## Jon

Beautiful day here as well but back to the miserable weather from tomorrow.

----------


## chris

In French, citronnelle can be an adjective, describing
any plant whose leaves give off a lemony smell when rubbed. It is also a noun which is translated into English as lemon grass.
However, to confuse things, *huile de citronnelle*, comes from an exotic insect repelling plant, and has no lemon smell at all. This is translated as citronella oil. Lemon grass oil which comes from lemon grass (French citronnelle) is called huile de lemon grass in French!!

What is important for the bait hive is the lemon smell. Lemon grass; lemon balm; and lemon verbena all work. Another plant that works well is anise.
My experience though is that the smell of wax/propolis is the most important.

----------


## Trog

> Just got a new flea/ tick collar for the terrier.  Ingredients :  imidacloprid and made by Bayer.  Luckily he won't be in too close contact with the bees


It's somehow appropriate that a product for hounds should be made by Bayer ...

[sits back and waits for a passing pedant to tell me that terriers aren't hounds ...]

----------


## Trog

That's interesting, Chris.  I'd noticed that the commercial swarm lure I've used without success for some time had a vaguely citronella smell and, of course, I'd noticed that smell when hiving a swarm on a still evening with all the bees fanning outside.  I shall try rubbing some citrus leaves around the inside of a bait hive.

----------


## Dark Bee

> It's somehow appropriate that a product for hounds should be made by Bayer ...
> 
> [sits back and waits for a passing pedant to tell me that terriers aren't hounds ...]


Trog my good fellow, hounds in these green and pleasant islands give tongue, hit off the line, mark to ground, run mute, make hound music and have morning song and evening song. They do not however "bay", that is much too common for such aristocrats. Away, away, over the hills and far away; if you are good at the caintereacht you will know what that note is.
Hounds please.

----------


## Trog

First spring inspection, summer having arrived today [for one day only .. make the most of it].  Lovely to see them so contented, dancing bees on every comb, brood in all stages, oodles of pollen being brought in.  Mostly nice big queens with a couple of small ones who will probably get replaced soonish but meanwhile are better than nothing and laying in the same  quantities as the bigger girls.  The hives are much drier than usual, which is interesting as we didn't insulate at all this year.  There is also less mould on outer combs. Two very good overwintered nucs.DSCF1594.jpg

----------


## gavin

Cracking picture.  And now we know the colour of pollen loads from the cuckoo flower (Lady's smock, _Cardamine pratensis_, plur na cubhaig).  Do we need an areas for pictures of bees?  Bees on forage of the season?

----------


## Jon

I never saw as much lady's smock as we have at the moment.
I think it likes wet soil so the last 12 months have likely been kind to it.

----------


## Trog

There's a lovely patch of this on a bank near us.  We have it in our boggy meadow but it's usually a month later than this first patch.  The dandelions are huge this year and the bees are positively rolling in them! That's the bulk of the pollen but there's also willow still out and the gorse is splendid this year.  Not much sign of activity on the blackthorn hedge around the apiary, though, even though that's flowering more fully than I've ever seen it.  Too much better stuff around, I suppose!

----------


## Bridget

First inspection at last.  Both hives a bit smaller than I expected - about 4 -5 seams.  Very little capped brood, not much brood either and although I'm sure there were eggs I'm rubbish at seeing them.  Acres of polished cells.  Saw both queens, a first for me to manage to see the unmarked Queen so that was good. One hive had quite a lot of sealed stores, the other not much.  If one queen was further ahead with her brood I would say that the other was a poor queen but they are both at the same sort of stage so I think maybe they have only just got started.  We have no gorse, dandelions or willow yet, a small ribes bush in the village which had lots of bees on it and bringing in orange pollen from something.  I have given both 1/1 syrup.  On the plus side they were very well behaved which was good as I never managed to get the smoker going properly - another thing I'm hopeless at.  Changed the floors and was quite shocked at the number of dead bees on one of them, but then I didn't know to change them last year.  Great piles of granulated sugar too - the fondant I put on in the winter was quite hard so it looks like they were not that keen on it.
photo-1.jpg

----------


## Trog

I wonder if they'd overwinter better on solid floors and with a mouseguard across the entrance rather than a block with a small hole.  Ours definitely prefer solid floors or ones with a very small meshed hole in the centre.

----------


## Bumble

Talking about mouseguards, which you weren't. If I was go along with the recommendations for keeping Asian Hornets out of hives, and reduce the entrances to 5.5mm high, will that be narrow enough to deter shrews? I relied on shallow entrances this year, didn't get mice, but found droppings suggesting visiting shrews and would like to keep them out next winter. I haven't worked out how to fit metal mouseguards to my hives.

The size is mentioned in one of the links https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/bee...s/news.cfm#137 We haven't got the hornets yet, but I think they'll arrive sooner rather than later, and could move quite quickly from the point(s) of entry.

----------


## drumgerry

What a bleedin disastrous day I've had.  On Sunday I moved a tiny cluster with queen from a wooden nuc into an Apidea.  I wouldn't normally have bothered but the queen had some genetics I was keen to keep and breed from this summer.  Another colony with about 3 frames of bees seemed to be queenless  - no eggs, brood, nothing.  So today I thought I'd cut my losses and give the Apidea queen to the queenless bees.  Shook the Q- lot over a queen excluder into a new brood box just to be sure there was no queen and sure enough there wasn't.  Went to the Apidea to get the queen and the beggars had absconded!  So in the course of a few days I've gone from 8 units down to 6.  I got 10 through the winter but  two colonies have gone to pastures new and now these two have done the dirty on me.  I think this year is going to be for consolidation rather than the expansion I'd hoped for.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

hi Drumgerry

Wet and cold here again today 
I'm much the same --only lost one during the winter so 14 came through
But with drone layers, no queen/no layers, and chalkbrood now only 6 potentially useful hives
and if we don't get some decent weather soon who knows

----------


## Jimbo

Managed to check 3 of my colonies last night. First was 2 frames of brood and not very dark but managed to find queen and mark. Second was looking again like a hybrid colony but with 4 frames of brood. The third was nice dark bees very gentle, quite on the comb with 4 frames of brood and some capped drone cells. Did not find the queen but it was starting to get dark and had to give up due to poor light. Not that I am biased but the dark native bees on this site have made better progress than the two hybrid colonies. If the wings look good this is a candidate as a breeder queen.
Forgot to add this colony also had a nice brood pattern

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Careful Jimbo somebody will nick it if it's doing that well  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

I checked 6 of mine yesterday and they had all made progress from the previous inspection 3 weeks before.
The biggest is 5-6 frames of bees with 3 of brood.
About 4-6 weeks behind where I would expect them to be at this time of year.

DR I am in a similar situation to you with only about half of mine likely to build up sufficiently by July.
I am not expecting a great deal of honey this season but if I can get the bees in better shape for next winter, that will be progress.
Any other season I would consider this a disaster, but I know so many people who have lost all that I am counting my blessings.

I have not bothered about collecting swarms for several years but were I to hear of a stray prime swarm at the moment I would be after it like a shot.
If I get a couple of colonies set up as cell raisers I should be able to rear a few queens but I will be short of bees to fill apideas and make up nucs.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Jon
How does your queen rearing group operate ?
are you re-queening members hives?
could you split their colony over a board and introduce a virgin to the top box 

No solutions for beginners without bees though that's a difficult problem

----------


## Jon

> No solutions for beginners without bees though that's a difficult problem


That's the main problem we have.
Even with just one cell raiser you can easily produce about 20 grafted queen cells per fortnight but you need somewhere to put them.
We have already discussed prioritizing the requeening of colonies if we cannot source more bees for making up nucs.
Things might looker better in a few weeks depending upon the speed of colony growth.

----------


## Jimbo

Hi DR,

They are welcome to try. One of my sites is on MOD land and the site gets checked approx every 30 mins by Men in Black with semi automatics and big dogs. Many a time I have been inside a hive only to have a dog come up to me to have a sniff. From my site I can look down onto Britains nuclear deterent subs on one side and the missile silo's on the other. Might explain why my bees have native wings and glow in the dark!

----------


## GRIZZLY

Well finally managed to complete the inspection of all my 20 hives. I'm very pleased to have found every queen and have marked the lot. Some I hadn't managed to mark last year and some  have had their markings worn away. The largest colony was on 8 1/2 good frames of brood with the smallest on 4. They all have loads of fresh pollen - mostly whins -  and a couple had what looked like fresh nectar tho' what they have been foraging on is a bit of a mystery as there is no blossom  showing yet due to the very cold past few weeks. All apart from one very weak colony that I expected to lose have come thro' the winter and are now expanding in strength.
Lets hope we have some really good weather soon and the bees can continue to flourish. Very little varoa showing under the colonies treated with Apivar - just one or no mites at all.

----------


## Jon

That's a good report John compared to a lot of the rest of us.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR,
> 
> They are welcome to try. One of my sites is on MOD land and the site gets checked approx every 30 mins by Men in Black with semi automatics and big dogs. Many a time I have been inside a hive only to have a dog come up to me to have a sniff. From my site I can look down onto Britains nuclear deterent subs on one side and the missile silo's on the other. Might explain why my bees have native wings and glow in the dark!


Lol!

sounds like they are safe unless there is a nuclear attack 
They need big wings to get them the heck out of there at the first sign of trouble

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Well Jon looks like you'll have to relocate the breeding program to Grizzly's home apiary this season  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

We are near neighbours. Just a stretch of water between us.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Open invitation for Jon to come over the water and do some queen rearing here. There have been times when the weather is better over there and vice-versa better over here. By and large our weather is very similar.
Haven't heard of other losses in our ass'n so perhaps  we've been lucky. We did supply everyone with O.A. at Christmas together with syringes etc  and have spread the word about Apivar which most people have used so I think we're getting on top of varroa as an ass'n. We've had 16 of our members studying as a group for the SBA Beemaster part 1 so most of our " beginner" members are singing from the same hymn sheet. Our beginner  / study group consists of absolute starters  to people who have kept bees for up to 5 years. This year we've got a summer programme  which sees us meeting at various apiaries etc. every two weeks ,meaning that we can follow up the winter theory with practical work for our study group and the rest of the membership. We suffer from not having an ass'n apiary but I'm working on our members to try and get across the benefits to our beginners e.t.c.

----------


## greengumbo

Some great photos of some of our rarer bee species. Have not read the accompanying study but agree with the habitat loss stuff.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...499953&index=9

----------


## madasafish

> Some great photos of some of our rarer bee species. Have not read the accompanying study but agree with the habitat loss stuff.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...499953&index=9


I find it ironic that it also blames urban sprawl. The Guardian supported unlimited immigration and supports more housebuilding...

----------


## prakel

posted by prakel on 09/05/12:




> Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum, and to be honest wasn't planning on making many/regular posts simply because it can become too much of a commitment -and on occassions even stressful- to write on these internet forums....


What a difference a year makes! Best try to be quieter in future.

----------


## Jon

Some of us are worse!

----------


## Bridget

Actually I do remember reading that post Prakel

----------


## prakel

Just had a heads-up from an old friend who owns a plot of land next to one of my apiaries to let me know that another local bee(less?)keeper has phoned him requesting permission to site a bait hive on his land! This is a man who started beekeeping with a dozen or so colonies about five years ago; been interesting to see his highly visible hives reducing in number each Spring.

----------


## Jon

My guess would be he does no varroa control.
Bait hives don't bother me as I clip my queens and check regularly.

----------


## prakel

Similar. I'm quite relaxed about people putting bait hives out just so long as there's nothing nasty lurking in them -although asking my friend (who's an ex, pre varroa, beekeeper) for permision was perhaps an own goal..... if the chap had come to me direct I could probably have been persuaded to GIVE him a nuc on the grounds that it's better to know what the genetics of his bees are rather than run the risk of him importing something less compatible from outside once the penny drops and he realizes that he's little chance of picking up a swarm from one of my hives.

----------


## Jon

We had a case of few years ago where a newish beekeeper hid a bait hive in an association apiary which was in an apple orchard. One of the other beekeepers found it a few dozen yards away hidden behind a tree.
He did this surreptitiously without speaking to anyone about it. I would consider that to be pretty crass behaviour.

----------


## prakel

I always put out some some bait hives in any apiary I have -I just love to see stray swarms take up residence and to watch their progress but I'm not into swarm collections from people's gardens etc -I will if need be but there are usually other people who are keen enough to take the responsibility. As for actively seeking to bait another person's apiary? Not my style at all, but each to their own.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Not today (a few days ago) I did some hives' first spring inspection.  This hive was on double brood, but the whole colony was in the top box.  In the bottom box I found two combs that they've nibbled like this:

IMG_4517.jpg IMG_4520.jpg

I've never seen combs being nibbled so badly.  Those were the only two combs that had two parallel wires rather than the W-shaped wires.  It was wired by me, and not very well.  I wonder whether that might have been the reason for their nibbling or did they just like the wax?

Kitta

----------


## gavin

Are you sure there was no mouse or even a shrew in there?  Apart from droppings one sign would be larger flakes of wax than the bees usually leave.

----------


## Neils

No bees for me this weekend but I did run a primer session for the Basic assessment. Last year we had three people in total apply, this year I had 7-8 just on the day with the promise of more to come. I was pleasantly surprised at the turnout and interest.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Are you sure there was no mouse or even a shrew in there?  Apart from droppings one sign would be larger flakes of wax than the bees usually leave.


I did not see any droppings inside the hive, Gavin, and I did not take note of the wax flakes.  I'll remember about that next time it happens.  There was evidence of mice outside the hive.  Mouse droppings, and they chewed at the varroa tray which I kept in over winter (because of the strong wind around here) with some holes drilled in them.  I think they tried to get into the space between the varroa insert and the floor.

I don't use mouse guards.  All the hives have entrances that are about 6mm high which I thought should be mouse-proof.  This particular hive was a Modern Beekeeping National hive, and they come with those plastic entrance adjusters that also create openings of about 6mm.  Do you think shrews can get in where mice can't?  

Kitta

----------


## fatshark

Kitta
I think the bees do that from boredom (or perhaps spite).  In all the lousy weather last summer I had some foundation treated similarly - they chewed the bottom out of the partly or fully drawn cells.  I seem to remember it was during a period of protracted bad weather when they were unable to forage much.

Since they're so good at repairing comb - for example after cutting down the sidewalls during grafting or even repairing areas where mature QC's are cut out - I've given the frames back to them this year to mend.

Of course, the weather is still rubbish!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Fatshark.  I hope you're right and that mice or shrews weren't the culprits.  I think I'll do the same as you and return the frames to see what happens.
Kitta

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## GRIZZLY

Just got a pleasant surprise , went thro one of my black bee colonies to discover the queen had laid up right across the brood box.
 They are on 18 sides of brood and absolutely stuffed with bees. There was one q cell which looked like superceedure. The current queen seems to be laying eggs into every available space.  I hope they are going to produce more q cells so that I can take a split. Despite all my efforts ,I haven't been able to get two other colonies to transfer from 16x10 hives to nationals - they are determined to stay put so I'll have to try a more severe strategy. The problem is that they are good sets of bees and I don't want to do anything to damage them. Putting the q down below and doing an artificial swarm hasn't worked and a Baily change will lose too much brood. As a last resort I might have to resort to cutting the brood out from the 16x10 frames and tie it into national frames and transfer the queen down with the new temporary frames - rather like clearing bees from roofs etc. Anybody got any other suggestions ?.

----------


## Dark Bee

You should not loose brood with the Bailey frame change - are you confusing it with a shook swarm?

----------


## Adam

A bailey will lose honey - in that the bees will have to work hard to draw the new comb but the brood is retained. After 3 weeks you'll have empty Commercials. You could just start by putting the National on top of the commercial box until some of the frames are used, then put the queen upstairs above an excluder. Why change btw? I quite like the idea of commercials.

----------


## Dark Bee

> A bailey will lose honey - in that the bees will have to work hard to draw the new comb but the brood is retained. After 3 weeks you'll have empty Commercials. You could just start by putting the National on top of the commercial box until some of the frames are used, then put the queen upstairs above an excluder. Why change btw? I quite like the idea of commercials.


If one may suggest it; a first floor entrance will raise the ambiance of the occasion. :Cool:

----------


## GRIZZLY

Adam I've been playing with these bees for six weeks now. I do know what a Baily comb change is also shook swarming. So far nothing has worked - aided I guess by the naff cold and wet weather we've been having. So more harsh methods seem to be required .  I'm changing to  Nationals with these two colonies as all the rest of my twenty other colonies are on national size hives ( swienty 10 frame poly nationals.) I used to beekeep on 16x10 hives when down south in Warwickshire. The bees would draw them right across but not up here - so  I've reverted to nationals. 
D.B. I might try an upper entrance to perhaps induce them to work in the upper national chamber, however we shall see.

----------


## Dark Bee

Remove all the broodless combs in the bottom box, fill the spaces left on either side with dummies/polystyrene/scrunched up newspaper etc. In the topbox install the same no of frames as there are remaining in the bottom  box, use drawn comb - borrow a bit from other colonies anif necessary use some foundation, insulate the sides as before. Install a feeder. Find queen or smoke her up, fit Qx and use a few laths to make a top entrance to top box directly over the old entrance which you now close and of course have plenty of insulation over the crown board. That's the gist of it - apologies if you are already familiar with the process.

----------


## Neils

Down in the tropical south we're where I'd expect to be in April. My nuc has finally given up the ghost and I think I should have moved the final few to an apidea to try and make use of the queen.

One colony I think will be starting to think about swarming next week, if I'm lucky, but still has no drones of its own but now has a good quantity of drone brood ready for action. The other has drones but is still barely filling a 14x12 and unsurprisingly has done nothing in the super I optimistically added last week. I had taken two frames of brood over successive weeks from it to try and boost the Nuc which hasn't helped I'm sure.

My aim for this year is now simply to split the two hives I ave and hopefully have 4 strong colonies going into winter. If we have a good summer I might look to bring the apideas into play later in the year but I just don't have enough bees to do everything so I'm scaling back my ambition for now.

----------


## drumgerry

I tried to do that (move a tiny cluster+queen to an Apidea) Neil and they absconded within 24 hours so maybe it wouldn't have worked for you anyway.  Saw my first drones of 2013 during today's inspections - late or what?!  I had great plans to do some queen rearing this summer but it's looking like I'll also have to scale back what I had in mind.

----------


## Neils

Yesterday was the first time I saw drones. There weren't any last week that I can recall or that I put in my inspection notes (and I have been starting to note things I would otherwise think of as ordinary this year). Jokes about tropical south aside, what I do find interesting is just how closely aligned general behaviour is between Bristol and Scotland. In the grand scheme of things, granted, geographically we're not that far apart but localised weather can be quite distinct yet over the past couple of years I can see maybe a week's 'advantage' in the behaviour of my bees (swarming etc) compared to scotland.

My slightly more carnie mongrels than my other mongrels are now starting to race ahead in terms of brood but they're stlll drone free at the moment and also benefit that in comparison to the other colony never had any brood removed, but were a smaller colony when I eventually managed to start inspections and I'm now only just starting to think that I need to start a weekly inspection routine to watch for swarming.

----------


## Calum

So the official winter losses for Germany are published now.
From the 7000 beekeepers that responded, of their 88000 colonies 13000 did not make it through the winter. So 15,3% losses. 

Very acceptable I'd say... I felt like writting this in the special place, but trolling there has lost its appeal.

8°C here today, even Scotland is warmer.. Lucky most colonies are sitting on a full super - the clement weather we had in early may was profitable for the bees.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> So the official winter losses for Germany are published now.
> From the 7000 beekeepers that responded, of their 88000 colonies 13000 did not make it through the winter. So 15,3% losses. 
> 
> Very acceptable I'd say... I felt like writting this in the special place, but trolling there has lost its appeal.
> 
> 8°C here today, even Scotland is warmer.. Lucky most colonies are sitting on a full super - the clement weather we had in early may was profitable for the bees.


Your bees need to be tough Calum 
Sometimes folk think Continental weather is all sun and surf  :Smile:

----------


## Bridget

> 8°C here today, even Scotland is warmer.. Lucky most colonies are sitting on a full super - the clement weather we had in early may was profitable for the bees.


Not this part of Scotland Calum, 8 degrees here today and drizzle, though it was quite balmy over the weekend with a high of 14. However I am still wondering whether I'm being optimistic if I add first supers on the next warmer day

----------


## GRIZZLY

Best to be optimistic Bridget. Got 8 of mine on the rape and hoping for a little sweetness this year.

----------


## Jon

Our beginners did their preliminary practical exam this evening.

prelim-exam6-small.jpg prelim-exam7-small.jpg

More in the blog

----------


## brothermoo

Post arrived today with some beekeeping items... This was ordered in hope for this season!
__________________
sent via tapatalk

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## Jon

Weather permitting, we can mark a few on Monday evening but they will be getting yellow spots as they are 2012 queens. I found my yellow posca pen the other day.

This gal here needs marked and clipped.

queen-minnowburn1small.jpg queen-minnowburn2small.jpg

----------


## drumgerry

Been marking my 2012 queens blue as a moosie ate my yellow Posca pen in the winter.  I'd have liked a look at the coupon (face for the non-Glaswegians) on that mouse in the immediate aftermath!

----------


## gavin

> .... as a moosie ate my yellow Posca pen in the winter.


Whatever happened to wee glass nail varnish bottles with nice gentle brushes?  (I know what happened to my last one - dropped it!)

Last Saturday I was getting a yellow and a white Posca pen working and the only rigid surfaces available to do that plunging action to get them going were my fingernails (covered by a latex glove).  Doing my nails in front of a group of beekeepers .... weird ....

These Buzzy Bee Shop wing snippers are the bees knees.  Much easier than dodgy Tesco nail scissors.

----------


## Jon

> Doing my nails in front of a group of beekeepers .... weird ....


..as opposed to doing it in private!!

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## gavin

> ..as opposed to doing it in private!!


Always more comfortable that way.  

I hear that the SBA is putting on a good show at Gardening Scotland.  Anyone see any of it?

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1908405370...84.m1439.l2649
ebay good price for posca pen red ?

----------


## fatshark

Not as cheap as these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POSCA-MARK...item43aa023cd8

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Not as cheap as these:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POSCA-MARK...item43aa023cd8


Thanks, and well spotted Fatshark ,that's a good deal  :Smile: 
Some beekeeping operations charge 3 times the price
Sometimes I feel I'm being robbed blind

----------


## Bumble

> Last Saturday I was getting a yellow and a white Posca pen working and the only rigid surfaces available to do that plunging action to get them going were my fingernails (covered by a latex glove).  Doing my nails in front of a group of beekeepers .... weird ....


Try dabbing the pen on the toe of your boot. If you're careful you can make a nice pattern. Mine is an orange pen, brighter than red, when that runs out I think I'll try a dayglo colour.

Wing clipping snips - has anybody used fly-tying scissors?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Try dabbing the pen on the toe of your boot. If you're careful you can make a nice pattern. Mine is an orange pen, brighter than red, when that runs out I think I'll try a dayglo colour.
> 
> Wing clipping snips - has anybody used fly-tying scissors?


Yes I use them for fly tying they are very sharp
wouldn't want to chop off my queens wing though
Bit cruel I would rather she flew away and lived happily ever after in a neighbour's hive
If I lived in a built up are I might feel different  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

Most of my bees are in a rural spot but last year I let swarms loose that caused bother in the big hoosie of the landowner. There are also two cottages within a few hundred yards.  I'm now a snipper of dead, dry queen tissue. A bit like nail clipping. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## gavin

> Try dabbing the pen on the toe of your boot. If you're careful you can make a nice pattern. Mine is an orange pen, brighter than red, when that runs out I think I'll try a dayglo colour.


Do remember that it is straightforward to upload pictures onto SBAi or your favourite photo-sharing site... 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## The Drone Ranger

> Most of my bees are in a rural spot but last year I let swarms loose that caused bother in the big hoosie of the landowner. There are also two cottages within a few hundred yards.  I'm now a snipper of dead, dry queen tissue. A bit like nail clipping. 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


That was a bit unfortunate but somebody might have caught that swarm and been over the moon
But you are right Gavin it does matter where you are 
Just remember "those bees don't look like any of mine they must have come from somewhere else "
I remember some poor chap wrote an amusing story (BeeCraft)of a swarm that escaped and ended up in the train station where he caught the train to work
Anyway the misery brigade slated him to death in the next months magazine
Isn't it the case though once the bees get in swarm mode they will just leave with the first virgin available

----------


## Jon

> Bit cruel I would rather she flew away and lived happily ever after in a neighbour's hive


DR. Clipping a queen does not mean you sit back and let them swarm.
You carry out weekly checks in the peak swarming months as usual and take action if you find a charged queen cell.
I look at it as insurance, and with my best queens you can be damned sure I don't want them swarming and getting lost in the grass.
But there again a good queen should be unlikely to swarm anyway.

----------


## gavin

> Isn't it the case though once the bees get in swarm mode they will just leave with the first virgin available


So I hear. Presumably they're OK with the quality of the forage available. 

Should I ever inherit a railway company from a long lost relative I've never heard of I think I'll call it Old Queen Trains. 


Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR. Clipping a queen does not mean you sit back and let them swarm.
> You carry out weekly checks in the peak swarming months as usual and take action if you find a charged queen cell.
> I look at it as insurance, and with my best queens you can be damned sure I don't want them swarming and getting lost in the grass.
> But there again a good queen should be unlikely to swarm anyway.


No I didn't suggest letting them swarm was a good thing  :Smile: 
Just don't think it justifies the death penalty for the queen
logically If good queens didn't swarm the only bees left in the world would be bad ones

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> So I hear. Presumably they're OK with the quality of the forage available. 
> 
> Should I ever inherit a railway company from a long lost relative I've never heard of I think I'll call it Old Queen Trains. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


Spent a little while choo choo chewing that over before your train of thought became clear  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Not as cheap as these:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POSCA-MARK...item43aa023cd8


Who sells cedar brood boxes for the best price ?

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## fatshark

Thornes seconds I reckon ... the end of season sale, rather than Christmas or early season. I'm pretty sure I paid £12 each last year and they then went up to £15 in the later sales, but I might be wrong. Credit to Thornes ... when I've ordered in advance and collected a big sealed box from them the cedar seconds they pick and pack are no worse (and often better) than those available to the eager throng pawing through the stacks in the yard. Remember they supply rubbish plastic runners so I buy a job lot of metal ones in the sales as well - you have to factor those into the price as well.

Or was this some sort of trick question?  Do we need an "Unlimited beekeeping bargains thread"?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thornes seconds I reckon ... the end of season sale, rather than Christmas or early season. I'm pretty sure I paid £12 each last year and they then went up to £15 in the later sales, but I might be wrong. Credit to Thornes ... when I've ordered in advance and collected a big sealed box from them the cedar seconds they pick and pack are no worse (and often better) than those available to the eager throng pawing through the stacks in the yard. Remember they supply rubbish plastic runners so I buy a job lot of metal ones in the sales as well - you have to factor those into the price as well.
> 
> Or was this some sort of trick question?  Do we need an "Unlimited beekeeping bargains thread"?


No trick question I'm very grateful for the advice
I have bought stuff in The thornes sale while they were at Tayport but haven't since the move
I was thinking of 10 smith broodboxes some of mine are slightly worse for wear
I did buy some from Stanfordham some years back they were pine and cheapish but they warp a bit
I didn't realise I could order in advance so pickup would be easier 
Thanks Fatshark

I would like to see a _where to buy and what to pay thread_ good value needs quality and price

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## fatshark

DR ... all my stuff is Nationals. Not sure if Smiths are included in the sales stuff. I've been pleased enough with the quality. Not up to Hivemakers standards (Pete L.) but reasonably warp and knot free.

And for readers wanting "Todays news" ... it's a lovely day and I'm gong to be grafting.  Finally.

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## gavin

> Who sells cedar brood boxes for the best price ?


Bear in mind that the bulk of boxes sold are not Western Red Cedar but 'English cedar' which is a cheaper inferior wood.  I forget which trees supply that type but it is a stretch to call it cedar.  Western Red Cedar is a wonderful wood - naturally durable and very light.  Thornes do supply but at a price.  We've a couple of such Nationals awaiting assembly at the local association apiary and I thought this was going to be the year to use them but we have so many spare boxes I can't see it.

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## nemphlar

Apidea,s £18.50 derby bee supplies, though I don't have drones in the hive yet so the winter buys will stay in the box

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## Neils

The best laid plans and all that. Checked the nature reserve hive carefully last week as it was getting full, still no drones in the hive though nor signs of active queen cells though there were increasing numbers of play cups. So dutifully lugged down a spare hive yesterday having given them a super a play in last week anticipating

Opened them up yesterday and, sure enough, the buggers have swarmed. I've split what's left into two Nucs anyway in the hope I can get some less swarmy queens into them later in the year but I think this is the straw that breaks the camel's back and I'm going to start clipping queens.  I went through this hive in detail last week, opening up all the play cups to be sure so finding several capped queen cells and no eggs is somewhat of a let down of my opinion of myself as an observant beekeeper.

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## gavin

> The best laid plans and all that. Checked the nature reserve hive carefully last week as it was getting full, still no drones in the hive though nor signs of active queen cells though there were increasing numbers of play cups. So dutifully lugged down a spare hive yesterday having given them a super a play in last week anticipating
> 
> Opened them up yesterday and, sure enough, the buggers have swarmed. I've split what's left into two Nucs anyway in the hope I can get some less swarmy queens into them later in the year but I think this is the straw that breaks the camel's back and I'm going to start clipping queens.  I went through this hive in detail last week, opening up all the play cups to be sure so finding several capped queen cells and no eggs is somewhat of a let down of my opinion of myself as an observant beekeeper.


You are not alone Neil.  Last Saturday I went through mine with half a dozen one-year beekeepers helping.  Today one had swarmed and another was in the act of doing so, and the one I was predicting would be ready to, wasn't.  One of the swarmed stocks, the one in the act as we approached, had a virgin on the loose, piping at the remaining cells.  

So we split the two swarming stocks (one into four nucs, the other into one box with one sealed cell and one box with several unsealed cells giving me a week to decide what to do with that favoured stock), and I'm still wondering how we managed to miss what would have been a sealed cell in the colony that had a virgin on the loose.  The other one could have taken an egg to a sealed cell in the time available.

At least there was lots for Rick and Dave to learn from that lot - how to clip and mark, why not clipping can lead to problems, what swarms in the air look like (!), queen piping, finding unmarked queens in busy colonies .....

Plus the extra boxes are rapidly filling in the unswarmed colonies ... a combination of strong colonies, rain showers, semi-decent weather, and loads of forage makes for rapidly filling boxes .....

My queens are a mix of marked and clipped, and unmarked and unclipped.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Apidea,s £18.50 derby bee supplies, though I don't have drones in the hive yet so the winter buys will stay in the box


Hi Nemphlar are they on the web ?

I've started putting in Snelgrove boards over this weekend

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## Neils

> You are not alone Neil.  Last Saturday I went through mine with half a dozen one-year beekeepers helping.  Today one had swarmed and another was in the act of doing so, and the one I was predicting would be ready to, wasn't.  One of the swarmed stocks, the one in the act as we approached, had a virgin on the loose, piping at the remaining cells.  
> 
> So we split the two swarming stocks (one into four nucs, the other into one box with one sealed cell and one box with several unsealed cells giving me a week to decide what to do with that favoured stock), and I'm still wondering how we managed to miss what would have been a sealed cell in the colony that had a virgin on the loose.  The other one could have taken an egg to a sealed cell in the time available.
> 
> At least there was lots for Rick and Dave to learn from that lot - how to clip and mark, why not clipping can lead to problems, what swarms in the air look like (!), queen piping, finding unmarked queens in busy colonies .....
> 
> Plus the extra boxes are rapidly filling in the unswarmed colonies ... a combination of strong colonies, rain showers, semi-decent weather, and loads of forage makes for rapidly filling boxes .....
> 
> My queens are a mix of marked and clipped, and unmarked and unclipped.


This particular hive is a PITA to be honest and it isn't the first time it's done this. ON the plus side it builds up very quickly. on the minus, it seems to be able to cap queen cells in about half an hour! Maybe they're african bees  :Big Grin:   Having split them anyway, I'd hope they wont get it into their heads to issue casts in case I missed any cells. If someone got them as a swarm, they got a big 'un.

Despite thinking they're a "bit" swarmy I was going to split them anyway, I just really could have done without losing a swarm this year so I was going through them very carefully for that very reason so I'm really annoyed that they've swarmed anyway as I'm definitely not getting any honey from that site this year.

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## The Drone Ranger

My bee craft Sub is due but I think it's going to be on the bench for a while.
Dorian Pritchard has filled a couple of pages with nonsense about his AMM bees
Even making the claim that the honey tastes better

Ps 
Neils It took a while for me to work out PITA
Now PITA bred has a whole new meaning for me  :Smile: 

Gavin 
I think the boxes made for the sale days will be not so good quality
Fatshark says"Thornes seconds I reckon ... the end of season sale, rather than Christmas or early season" so thay might be genuine seconds at that sale day

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## greengumbo

Morning all. Been away for a while on child rearing duties but back at the daily grind so thought I'd see whats up. In the meantime I have managed to finally source some bees so my garden is now buzzing with activity  :Smile:  They are going mad for the gorse and broom at the moment - I don't think they have yet spotted the OSR 1.5km away yet but it won't be long.

Its brilliant to have them again !

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## gavin

> My bee craft Sub is due but I think it's going to be on the bench for a while.
> Dorian Pritchard has filled a couple of pages with nonsense about his AMM bees
> Even making the claim that the honey tastes better
> 
> Ps 
> Neils It took a while for me to work out PITA
> Now PITA bred has a whole new meaning for me 
> 
> Gavin 
> ...


The Thornes budget stuff (and probably similar equipment from other suppliers) isn't Western Red Cedar but they do sell some of the high quality stuff too.  Not sure that it differs much in general between sale days and regular times except for the stock marked as seconds (which is often as good as the usual stuff).

Dorian P's article read like one of the better informed Bee Craft pieces I thought, but I will admit that the last two paragraphs on British bees working British flora were a little - ahem - unsubstantiated.

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## Dark Bee

Some years ago I got some Smiths B.B. at a Thornes sale - they were made from genuine western red cedar. They cost £7.50 each! (it was a long time ago).
Does the substitute cedar come from the Thuja tree ? I may well be mistaken, but that tree does grow in the UK and I believe has been named as the source. The probability is that several different but related trees are pressed into service.

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;18591]Ps 

Neils It took a while for me to work out PITA
..................................................  ..................................................  ...

Only because your upbringing was that of a polite young man.

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## Black Comb

I've got Thornes perfect and seconds red cedar. The seconds is an inferior wood, soft with knots.
As ever luck plays its part. Some are OK, some not.
After trying to fit together a langstroth brood box where the finger joints did not match (well out)I resolved not to buy any more.

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## Jon

I have about 25 Thorne seconds nationals. No problem with any other than the odd knot.

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## Black Comb

Their Seconds frames are worth buying.

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## Jon

I second that comment about the seconds. I have used hundreds of them

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## nemphlar

Apologies DR "beeequipped.co.uk" they are in Derbyshire

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## The Drone Ranger

> Apologies DR "beeequipped.co.uk" they are in Derbyshire


Thanks Nemphlar 
Great price spot 
I'll give them a try  :Smile:

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## gavin

> I second that comment about the seconds. I have used hundreds of them


I'll third that second comment about the seconds.  Must be well past my second hundred of them, maybe third.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hundreds of them 
What are you doing with them lighting the fire  :Smile:

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## gavin

Possibly a spot of poetic licence there ... but no, I've been through half a dozen bundles of 50 in the last few years.  And yes, many have ended up lighting a fire rather than being recycled in a nice new shiny frame recycling plant, sadly.

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## fatshark

> Their Seconds frames are worth buying.


Funnily enough (considering the earlier comments on brood boxes) ... the 'seconds' frames I've had from Thornes have been poor and a mistake I won't be repeating. Splits, knots, shonky grooving (that's a technical term Gavin, not a dance) and not something I've had either confidence or pleasure in using.  The slow deterioration of a box is manageable, the lug snapping of a full brood frame is unpleasant (and sometime unmanageable).  A real PITA  :Mad: 

Nemphlar ... nice find on the Apideas. At that price I might even try one instead of Kielers.

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## Neils

> Funnily enough (considering the earlier comments on brood boxes) ... the 'seconds' frames I've had from Thornes have been poor and a mistake I won't be repeating. Splits, knots, shonky grooving (that's a technical term Gavin, not a dance) and not something I've had either confidence or pleasure in using.  The slow deterioration of a box is manageable, the lug snapping of a full brood frame is unpleasant (and sometime unmanageable).  A real PITA 
> 
> Nemphlar ... nice find on the Apideas. At that price I might even try one instead of Kielers.


I agree about seconds frames.  I'd buy seconds Supers again because if they don't fit right and many of them dont, I can use them for other things.

Seconds brood boxes or frames area a mistake I wont repeat again.

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## The Drone Ranger

I wonder if anyone has a good supplier for frame nails
The ones I'm using (thornes) are over tempered so they snap
That's a nuisance using a hammer, but with the pin pusher it's deadly you stick the tool in your thumb

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## Dark Bee

> Nemphlar ... nice find on the Apideas. At that price I might even try one instead of Kielers.


A bee breeding group to which I belonged bought a quantity of Apideas from Swienty. They were able to negotiate a very favourable price - better than from the manufacturers. 
If a group or number of groups pool their pennies it might be worth investigating that option.

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## Bumble

I've used Maisemore and Thornes seconds frames. The Thornes were the knottiest, with more casualties, but only about half a dozen all told.

Seconds frames are a good buy, even with breakages. Last autumn I paid £40 for 50 jumbo frames, the current price for the same number of 'first' quality is not far short of £100.

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## Jon

> Seconds brood boxes or frames area a mistake I wont repeat again.


I have bought Thorne seconds frames several times and never had to discard more than 1/50 in a batch which usually costs about £28 for 50.
the brood boxes have been absolutely fine, no problems at all.

And no I am not a Thorne shill. They never made me a good enough offer.

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## Neils

I obviously just get unlucky with seconds kit. The couple of quid I saved on the seconds frames was more than swallowed by the amount of time it took to get the frames assembled and the number I ended up throwing away, not to mention having to buy a dremel to be able to fit the side bars onto the top bars.  

Likewise I've had brood boxes that wont assemble square or, worse still, into which frames will not fit. Maybe 14x12s are just more prone to show up manufacturing errors that Supers or plain nationals will tolerate.

Like I say, supers I don't mind too much, but I spend too much time with Frames and Brood boxes to tolerate to any degree kit which isn't up to snuff.

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## Jon

They must try and shift all the really bad stuff in the Bristol area!
All my gear is National so maybe the 14 by 12 stuff is dodgy.

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## drumgerry

Queenright cell raiser set up this afternoon.  First round of grafting tomorrow.  Game on!

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## brothermoo

> Queenright cell raiser set up this afternoon.  First round of grafting tomorrow.  Game on!


Thought for a second I was on Facebook and tried to 'like' this! Good stuff

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## drumgerry

Watch it B'Moo you'll be raising the ugly spectre of the SBA Facebook page that never was! :Wink:

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## GRIZZLY

> Hundreds of them 
> What are you doing with them lighting the fire


I lit a fire with some crappy 2nds frames I got from Thornes. A swift phone call to Jill Smith soon sorted it out and they replaced the 200 REALY crappy rubbish out of the 500 they had sent. Strangely Jill told me that I was the second complainant that day.  The same goes for buying 2nds supers. They were made from English cedar  but with cracks , splits and warped boards, also from boards that were  nearly all bark.   Out of 20 ordered I managed to assemble 11 and sent the other 9 back. Once again Jill intervened and I got replacements - also seconds but in a whole different league of manufacture. I normally make my own wooden gear from purchased thro' and thro' 8in x 1in Western Red Cedar boards and was only  being lazy buying Thornes. I learnt a valuable lesson the hard way and won't be making the same mistake again.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks for the heads up grizzly I might mosey along to the end of season sale but I'll skip the frames and sort through the broodboxes 
I do think at one time when they were in Tayport the sale stuff was genuine end of season
Now I think that its all just bought in or made for the sale from what people are telling me
Things like feeders etc are the same but cheaper --not so it seems wooden parts and hives

Can you buy Western red cedar I haven't seen any in my online searches etc

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## Jon

Caught a nice swarm in a bait hive in my garden this afternoon.
yellow mongrels and I saw the queen as well.


queen2-swarm-4-6-13.jpg queen-swarm-4-6-13.jpg

More in the blog.

Somebody nursed those through the winter but didn't clip.
I know three beekeepers within a mile of me but all of them lost their bees over winter so I can't think where these came from.

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## Dark Bee

Got a swarm myself this afternoon @4.30, it was very hot and sunny. They were black bees and seem to be quite docile. The 10.50 euros I spent purchasing a small bottle of lemongrass oil on Friday was well spent. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Jon

Good investment. Mine only had a couple of frames of manky brood comb in it.
Was over 20c here today.
I have bait hives at the allotment and at the association apiary as well.
We picked up a large swarm at the association apiary last Thursday.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Caught a nice swarm in a bait hive in my garden this afternoon.
> yellow mongrels and I saw the queen as well.
> 
> 
> Attachment 1541 Attachment 1542
> 
> More in the blog.
> 
> Somebody nursed those through the winter but didn't clip.
> I know three beekeepers within a mile of me but all of them lost their bees over winter so I can't think where these came from.


There are no mongrel bees they are all apis mellifera 
Lucky for the queen she wasn't clipped otherwise she would be dead
I'm sure there will be loads of people who would be less sniffy and happy to have that swarm 
So there  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Got a swarm myself this afternoon @4.30, it was very hot and sunny. They were black bees and seem to be quite docile. The 10.50 euros I spent purchasing a small bottle of lemongrass oil on Friday was well spent.


why do they like lemon grass oil ?

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## Jon

> There are no mongrel bees they are all apis mellifera 
> Lucky for the queen she wasn't clipped otherwise she would be dead
> I'm sure there will be loads of people who would be less sniffy and happy to have that swarm 
> So there


Not sniffy at all. In fact very happy. I can requeen it or use it to fill about 30 apideas or stick a couple of supers on to get honey. Spoiled for choice.

But yes they are mongrels. You can't breed from stock like that as the results are completely unpredictable.
There is another part which comes after apis mellifera which is mellifera, carnica, ligustica etc.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Not sniffy at all. In fact very happy. I can requeen it or use it to fill about 30 apideas or stick a couple of supers on to get honey. Spoiled for choice.


I've talked you round to loving the British black/yellow/brown bee ?  :Smile:

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## fatshark

I was hoping for a swarm today ... high temperature, high pressure, full sun and two bait hives getting loads of attention from scouts. Didn't happen. 

Do scouts scout before the swarm leaves the hive, or only after they've settled on a nearby bush/tree/fence? Seeley did all his work with artificial swarms, so recreating the cluster tha have left the hive. Because of the attention my bait hives have been receiving and the weather we've had here I strongly suspect the scouts are doing their work before the swarm leaves.

So, fingers crossed for Thursday which is supposed to be a belter here.

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## GRIZZLY

> why do they like lemon grass oil ?


I heard it's supposed to resemble the nasenov smell.

D.R. you get W.R.Cedar from Timbmet  Wycoma  timber co just off the M8  in Glasgow , Its wettish so you have to stack it a while to dry out. Makes really lovely hives. As I've changed over to plastic hives I just make supers now for myself but , full hives for our ass'n members etc.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I was hoping for a swarm today ... high temperature, high pressure, full sun and two bait hives getting loads of attention from scouts. Didn't happen. 
> 
> Do scouts scout before the swarm leaves the hive, or only after they've settled on a nearby bush/tree/fence? Seeley did all his work with artificial swarms, so recreating the cluster tha have left the hive. Because of the attention my bait hives have been receiving and the weather we've had here I strongly suspect the scouts are doing their work before the swarm leaves.
> 
> So, fingers crossed for Thursday which is supposed to be a belter here.


I think they start checking out likely spots well before they actually swarm

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## The Drone Ranger

> I heard it's supposed to resemble the nasenov smell.
> 
> D.R. you get W.R.Cedar from Timbmet  Wycoma  timber co just off the M8  in Glasgow , Its wettish so you have to stack it a while to dry out. Makes really lovely hives. As I've changed over to plastic hives I just make supers now for myself but , full hives for our ass'n members etc.


thanks Grizzly that's a great bit of information  :Smile: 
the swarm lure stuff might just be the same then

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## Jon

> Do scouts scout before the swarm leaves the hive, or only after they've settled on a nearby bush/tree/fence? Seeley did all his work with artificial swarms, so recreating the cluster tha have left the hive. Because of the attention my bait hives have been receiving and the weather we've had here I strongly suspect the scouts are doing their work before the swarm leaves.


This time last year I had a bait hive in the garden which was visited by hundreds of bees daily for about a week and then the activity stopped dead. That would suggest the scouting started before the swarm was emitted as it beggars belief that a swarm was hanging for a week in good weather.

Either the swarm chose a different destination or the beekeeper got it.

There were literally hundreds of bees casing the joint this afternoon before the swarm arrived and yesterday there were none at all.

Have you seen Tom Seeley's presentation about how swarms chose a new home? I was lucky enough to catch him here a couple of years ago. First class presenter of information.

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## GRIZZLY

> thanks Grizzly that's a great bit of information 
> the swarm lure stuff might just be the same then


Quite probably, but our scientific bods ought to be able to tell us.
How did you get on with you punch cells ?  I got given a dozen  of the original punches a while ago together with the mounting bases and frame.  I haven't used them yet but hope to have a go in short order.

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## fatshark

> There were literally hundreds of bees casing the joint this afternoon before the swarm arrived and yesterday there were none at all.
> 
> Have you seen Tom Seeley's presentation about how swarms chose a new home? I was lucky enough to catch him here a couple of years ago. First class presenter of information.


First swarm I ever saw arriving landed in my garden a few years ago ... occupying a bait hive. There had been loads of activity for a day or two. I was walking past it to the garage and thought to myself "Hmmm, no scouts today" ... at the same time the sky darkened (well, ok, not darkened, but you get the idea) and I was enveloped in a huge swirling mass. I was standing within 1m of the bait hive at the time. A fantastic sight.

Having subsequently read "Honeybee democracy" I now realise that the scouts vacated the 'target' to lead the swarm to the location. 

I've not heard Tom Seeley speak ... on my list of things to catch in the future. His books are excellent.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Quite probably, but our scientific bods ought to be able to tell us.
> How did you get on with you punch cells ?  I got given a dozen  of the original punches a while ago together with the mounting bases and frame.  I haven't used them yet but hope to have a go in short order.


Cell punching is good when the comb is new 
On old comb its not good-- grafting is easier then

I use Snelgrove boards so getting the queen cells is easier that way

Of 5 punches on a bar last week I had 1 queen cell sealed that's gone in a hive today
I did 5 more today I think they will all be accepted this time 

I haven't really got a need for them though so I try not to just do them for the sake of it  :Smile:

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## Jon

> Having subsequently read "Honeybee democracy" I now realise that the scouts vacated the 'target' to lead the swarm to the location. 
> 
> I've not heard Tom Seeley speak ... on my list of things to catch in the future. His books are excellent.


I haven't read his books yet but intend to.
He covered all that stuff about scouts leading the swarm in his lecture.

There was a definite lull of about 15 minutes before the air went black at about 5.30.

Seeley had one slide which showed how the dozen or so initial sites being evaluated via the dances of returning scouts were whittled down to just two and then the final choice before the swarm took off.
The graphic is likely in the book as well.

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## gavin

> There was a definite lull of about 15 minutes before the air went black at about 5.30.


That'll be while the workers that know, the decisive workers, the leaders of the team, go back to the parent colony to head-butt dissenters to shut them up.  Then tell all to get airborne.  There's a lot to do when you're a swarm.

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## Jon

I remember the headbutting. He has a wee video clip of it.
It was like shut the F*** up, we know what we are doing pointing at this better site.

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## gavin

Yup.  Sadly, I can't find the videos on Science Friday any more.  The last step while the swarm is parked is the buzz run, where workers in the know career over their nest mates, flapping wildly and buzzing as they go.  I saw that today in that swarm I'd chased out or a cavity wall with smoke.  I guess that bee thought they should all take off, but the others weren't listening.  Lots of interesting behaviour in a swarm forced out of its chosen home.  They were also running in a mass from one place to another, like a swarm does when thrown onto a sheet leading up to a hive entrance - only this time with no great end-point.  I suspect they were moving to an alternative hole in the wall, thinking conditions would be better there.  I looked hard for the queen leading or in that mass - no luck.

Yes, shut the flip up, that is what that head-butting and peeping was for.  Luckily I have a downloaded copy of the video for the bee communication roadshow, wherever that goes next.

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## brothermoo

Today I was playing with bees in a cavity wall too... Trying to reduce the number of entrances to one. One that is near a flat roof so I can pop the box on top when I trap them out.

I did fill a load of holes last week and left them a big one I widened.. however they have created some new entrances rather than the one I provided, typical!

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## Jon

Whereabouts is this one Mr Moo?
Did it overwinter or has it recently taken up residence.
Get the bait hives out if you have a few locations to put them.
There seem to be quite a few swarms about.

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## brothermoo

It's just off walkway near Sandown road.. its overwintered in the cavity the gentleman (who had plugged some holes) passed away in December and his wife noticed them again this spring

I was hoping to fumigate some of my gear before putting out bait hives. Tho I am mid construction of some nucs and I have a wee jar of lemongrass oil  :Wink: 

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## Jon

You get your acetic acid yet? I have some if you are stuck.
Makes sense to clean the comb but AFB spores will not be affected. Thankfully AFB is pretty rare around these parts.
Nosema is very susceptible to acetic acid fumes.

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## fatshark

As a follow up to the previous discussion re scouts and when they start scouting. Went to the apiary this evening to find a nice big fat swarm waiting at chest height in a bush (wasn't there yesterday when I went to check on my recent grafts) ... I strongly suspect they're mine (they sure as hell are now) and that it was this lot that sent out the scouts over the last few days. Today was a few degrees cooler than yesterday (or tomorrow is predicted to be). If the activity at my bait hive stops I can assume it was them. Of course, if it continues then I hope to catch another swarm  :Wink:

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## fatshark

> Not as cheap as these:
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POSCA-MARK...item43aa023cd8


Quick follow up to this post ... I ordered a couple of these on the 1st and they were delivered today. Both were shrink wrapped. Recommended and nothing to do with the vendor etc. etc. The pale blue is perhaps a bit too pale ... you have been warned. However, being colour blind I can't use the red and green*. Does anyone know if the metallic colours work for marking queens?

* of course I can use the red and green, just can't either differentiate between them or see it particularly well!

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## Jon

> If the activity at my bait hive stops I can assume it was them.


Not necessarily. I still have a fair bit of activity around the bait box 24 hours after hiving the swarm yesterday.
I reckon it is the original scouts who are in disbelief that I transferred the swarm to a position about 6 feet away as soon as it was in.

But I would agree that the swarm almost certainly came out of one of your own colonies. They nearly always settle close by before moving on to the final destination.

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## fatshark

> But I would agree that the swarm almost certainly came out of one of your own colonies. They nearly always settle close by before moving on to the final destination.


So my selective queen rearing for bees that calmly supersede and never swarm has yet to be totally achieved ... I'm gutted.

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## Jon

Do you not clip the queens?
Cheap insurance.
I have a queen into her 4th season who has never swarmed and she was clipped in June 2010 and it hasn't bugged her to date.
They attempted to supersede her last August but I accidentally removed the supersedure queen when she landed on a fence post with her mating swarm. I found the open supersedure cell in the colony the following day when I was trying to find out where the extraneous queen came from.
I looked in that colony today and her brood pattern is still decent enough but the queen is certainly starting to look her age.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I bet she has a scuff mark where her mutilated wing rubs on her back  :Smile: 
RSPCA

----------


## gavin

> I reckon it is the original scouts who are in disbelief that I transferred the swarm to a position about 6 feet away as soon as it was in.


 :Big Grin:   Can't stop chuckling at that one - scouts in disbelief.  I believe it.  

They certainly remember where they came from.  The other day whilst harassing a swarm in a wall the parent colony (now a three-way split using one of them Wedmore boards) had a large number of bees fussing around.  I think that they were having second thoughts about choosing the swarm over the original home.

----------


## gavin

> Of course, if it continues then I hope to catch another swarm


Well, you might, and it might still be yours!  Sure you didn't miss any cells ...... ?!

----------


## Jon

> I bet she has a scuff mark where her mutilated wing rubs on her back 
> RSPCA


I bet you a fiver I have been on far more animal rights demos than you have!!
I don't even eat them.
what about your chooks? Do you not clip the primary feathers?

----------


## Jon

> Can't stop chuckling at that one - scouts in disbelief.  I believe it.


a bit of anthropomorphisation never harmed anyone.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Quick follow up to this post ... I ordered a couple of these on the 1st and they were delivered today. Both were shrink wrapped. Recommended and nothing to do with the vendor etc. etc. The pale blue is perhaps a bit too pale ... you have been warned. However, being colour blind I can't use the red and green*. Does anyone know if the metallic colours work for marking queens?
> 
> * of course I can use the red and green, just can't either differentiate between them or see it particularly well!


Fluorescent might be brightest 

haven't tried them though

Posca have about half a dozen colours

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Uni-Ball-P...item4d087cbf26

----------


## drumgerry

> what about your chooks? Do you not clip the primary feathers?


I think that's ducks and geese you're thinking of there Jon!  Chooks can't get much of a head of steam up when it comes to flying.  Although having said that most of ours roost in trees!

----------


## gavin

> I bet you a fiver I have been on far more animal rights demos than you have!!
> I don't even eat them.


Animal rights demos?  Or maybe the fivers?   :Smile:

----------


## Jon

The fivers go into my pocket.
The anti bloodsports demos are on my early years CV.
Je ne regrette rien.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I bet you a fiver I have been on far more animal rights demos than you have!!
> I don't even eat them.
> what about your chooks? Do you not clip the primary feathers?


sony 337.jpg
where do you start ?

If god didn't want us to eat animals then why did he make them taste so good 

I've never been on a Demo of any kind so you got me there  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

If you don't clip the wings a light breed can easily get over a five foot fence.
I'm not saying a Rhode Island Red can fly over the Empire State Building.

A Hamburg bantam might get up to the 80th floor.
I remember we had one flew over the roof of our two storey house when I was a lad.

----------


## gavin

> Je ne regrette rien.


Je ne regrette manger quelques chose.

----------


## gavin

> I'm not saying a Rhode Island Red can fly over the Empire State Building.


If you clip one wing could it fly round it?

----------


## Jon

> Je ne regrette manger quelques chose.


You will if that includes Jerusalem Artichoke.

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## gavin

:EEK!:

----------


## fatshark

> Well, you might, and it might still be yours!  Sure you didn't miss any cells ...... ?!


I'm pretty sure that apiary only had one unclipped Q in the hives, and I'd removed her to a nuc when I saw the first QCs. I'd knocked off all the cells bar one ... shaking all the frames etc. Ho hum ...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## GRIZZLY

Jon -  a chicken on Jerusalem artichoke don't need wings.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I read somewhere about a beekeeper who clipped a couple of legs off a queen to encourage the bees to supercede
Is that acceptable ?

----------


## gavin

Call me hypocritical if you like but I find that unacceptable whereas squishing her on a nearby branch as a swarm attractant and replacing her with a nice new one out of an apidea is acceptable.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## The Drone Ranger

Lol 

I don't like clipping chopping or squashing in any situation
Drone layers are the exception there is no alternative
and Vicious ones
oh and bad chalkbrood
Belgians ?

----------


## Jon

Some beekeepers treat their bees like pets. You would think they were tending a box full of Labradors.
I think it is unreasonable to put up with vicious colonies as they are a menace to the beekeeper and the neighbours and they fire out drones which will spread around the bad genetics.
Same goes for colonies which just swarm all the time. Change the genetics.
If you are interested in bee improvement you have to breed from the best queens and cull/change the worst ones.
Otherwise there is no improvement in the stock we are working with.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Of 5 punches on a bar last week I had 1 queen cell sealed that's gone in a hive today
> I did 5 more today I think they will all be accepted this time


Over Optimistic as usual  :Smile: 
3 out of 5 accepted

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Some beekeepers treat their bees like pets. You would think they were tending a box full of Labradors.
> I think it is unreasonable to put up with vicious colonies as they are a menace to the beekeeper and the neighbours and they fire out drones which will spread around the bad genetics.
> Same goes for colonies which just swarm all the time. Change the genetics.
> If you are interested in bee improvement you have to breed from the best queens and cull/change the worst ones.
> Otherwise there is no improvement in the stock we are working with.


I'm very interested 
Pity you found my bait hive behind the tree

----------


## mbc

> Call me hypocritical if you like but I find that unacceptable whereas squishing her on a nearby branch as a swarm attractant and replacing her with a nice new one out of an apidea is acceptable.


Humane dispatch vs maiming and condemning to a slow death, no hypocrisy there.
I have no qualms about culling queens in their dozens for various reasons, the most unjustifiable being I simply dont like the look of her daughters. They are only insects after all and the emotional attachment I feel towards my good bees is entirely a human construct.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Humane dispatch vs maiming and condemning to a slow death, no hypocrisy there.
> I have no qualms about culling queens in their dozens for various reasons, the most unjustifiable being I simply dont like the look of her daughters. They are only insects after all and the emotional attachment I feel towards my good bees is entirely a human construct.


There's a lady I saw shopping the other day who could be in some danger as her daughter was frankly repulsive

----------


## drumgerry

Sycamore practically dripping with nectar here on Speyside this afternoon!  Shame most of my colonies not strong enough to fill a super or three of it.  Still it'll do them some good.

----------


## Neils

Watched a swarm issuing from a neighbours hive thus afternoon, I gave some video and photos which I will try and post in a but.

They dutifully settle about 15ft away on a branch of an agreeable height allowing me to christen one of the skeps I got for my birthday.

Textbook swarm, settle and capture for once I'm suitably smug right now, especially as my hive next door worked to predictions and had nice open queen cells today so straightforward artificial swarm with queen and flying bees on the original site and brood plus a queen cell in a nice shiny new hive.  I'll recheck them next week to ensure they still only have one queen cell and then leave them to it for a couple of weeks.

----------


## Jimbo

Started swarm control yesterday. Just over two weeks later than normal. From my hive records from the past 12 years my bees usualy start their queen cells week starting 23rd May
There is also a good flow on with all this good weather. Just put my 3rd super on one hive with most other hives on 2 supers which is good for our area

----------


## Trog

> Watched a swarm issuing from a neighbours hive thus afternoon, I gave some video and photos which I will try and post in a but.
> 
> They dutifully settle about 15ft away on a branch of an agreeable height allowing me to christen one of the skeps I got for my birthday.
> 
> Textbook swarm, settle and capture for once I'm suitably smug right now, especially as my hive next door worked to predictions and had nice open queen cells today so straightforward artificial swarm with queen and flying bees on the original site and brood plus a queen cell in a nice shiny new hive.  I'll recheck them next week to ensure they still only have one queen cell and then leave them to it for a couple of weeks.


Ah, lovely, Neils  :Smile: 

Our first a/s was 27 May and on checking yesterday all seems to have gone well.  Made up a nuc, too, with spare frame and qc.  Yesterday one or two more were at it and we were adding supers like nobody's business.  Have just put in orders for one more hive and 3 polynucs ... hesitated to do so earlier due to late spring but they've all come through extremely well.

----------


## Neils

Pics as promised. They picked their resting spot pretty quickly, in fact they pretty much made a beeline right for it and took maybe 10 minutes to form the majority of the cluster and were settled within 15 minutes. We think this is a cast rather than a prime swarm.



Once they'd finished doing their thing I grabbed a Skep from the shed and dutifully scooped them up, before leaving them alone to settle for a few hours so we could eventually put them into a permanent home The skeps just propped up on a bit of wood to give them an entrance.


A variation on marching them up a board, just turn the skep and angle it to the entrance:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I have plans for a skep I'm Chopping the bottom off the laundry basket
That's some swarm Neils they will make loads of new combs for you
You could have a caption where the two hives on the right are leaning away
"good grief has that Nuc let another one go "

----------


## Jon

Just got another huge swarm in a bait hive in the garden.
Nice dark bees as well.
Photos to follow.

----------


## drumgerry

> I have plans for a skep I'm Chopping the bottom off the laundry basket
> That's some swarm Neils they will make loads of new combs for you
> You could have a caption where the two hives on the right are leaning away
> "good grief has that Nuc let another one go "


Great minds think alike DR!  I did the very thing last year and taped the rough edge up with duct tape.  Worked a treat and still going strong this year.  No swarms as yet though here.

----------


## Trog

Himself is just out to the first swarm call-out.  In someone's mother's kitchen, which doesn't sound good.  I'd have gone along but the B & Bs are due back so I'd better be here just in case they need me!  Swarmy weather here on Mull so the ferals will be at it for a while, I suspect.

----------


## Jon

fan it on up there boss!




Photos in the blog

----------


## Trog

Greenhouse, not kitchen.  Nice easy swarm of dark bees with a big fat queen  :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Himself is just out to the first swarm call-out.  In someone's mother's kitchen, which doesn't sound good.  I'd have gone along but the B & Bs are due back so I'd better be here just in case they need me!  Swarmy weather here on Mull so the ferals will be at it for a while, I suspect.


It'll be a race to see who gets them first I suppose

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Great minds think alike DR!  I did the very thing last year and taped the rough edge up with duct tape.  Worked a treat and still going strong this year.  No swarms as yet though here.


Hope the missus didn't catch you chopping it up  :Smile:

----------


## drumgerry

Cleared it with her first - it was destined for the bin anyway as the cats had been using it as a scratching post!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Cleared it with her first - it was destined for the bin anyway as the cats had been using it as a scratching post!


Are you planning any queen raising at the moment ?

----------


## drumgerry

Checked my cell raiser this avo DR and have 11 (of 20 grafts) sealed queen cells from my finest mutts!  Need to find some bees for my apideas now!  How about you?

----------


## fatshark

8/10 accepted grafts and stocked my Kielers this afternoon. For the first time in three years I did this on a dry, warm, sunny afternoon. Still quite a bit of work on your own but at least the bees were good tempered. All eight Kielers are now sounding rather agitated in the garage. I know they don't need to be stocked in advance but the next few days are turning cooler and cloudier, and there's the small issue of the day job to deal with. This way I'll pop the QC's in on Wednesday evening without having to play hooky that afternoon to stock them.

Field beans just coming into flower ... the cell raiser (Ben Harden) now has BB, S, S, S, BB (QC's) and its almost too heavy to lift that lot off for an inspection. Looks like I'll be finished with it just in time for the main flow.

Caught two swarms in the week and treated them with oxalic acid this evening 'just to make sure'. Lots of interest in the bait hive strapped precariously to the greenhouse roof. All in all, a good day  :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Checked my cell raiser this avo DR and have 11 (of 20 grafts) sealed queen cells from my finest mutts!  Need to find some bees for my apideas now!  How about you?


Not as brave as you Drumgerry with your 20 at a time
Or as good as fatshark with 8 out of 10
I just do just 5 at a time 3 queencells sealed (better than 1 out of 5 last lot)
These are for the boxes above the Snelgrove boards on hives where the grumpy biaches live  :Smile: 
Like fatshark I have some Kielers 6 of them they can be dragged in to service but I am not that keen

By the way fatshark is that beekeeping morse code" BB s s s BB " very mysterious (GCHQ will crack that code though)

----------


## drumgerry

20 that turn into 10 SQCs that turn into 8 mated queens if I'm lucky DR!  Still very much got my L plates on with this stuff.  Plan as last year is to take my biggest hybridest colony and split it down into nucs using the queens I produce - a la Mike Palmer.  Had mixed results with it after our endless winterspring but still got hopes that this is the best way to up my numbers.

And my cell raiser is set up BB QEx s s BB.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it GCHQ!

----------


## drumgerry

Been a few bees checking out a bait hive today -  well even here you never know.  So to give them some encouragement I thought I'd dab a few drops of lemongrass oil near the entrance.  My lemongrass oil is pretty old and thick (a bit like me as you'll see!) so I bent down to sniff it at the entrance to see if it was still good.  Next thing I know I've got a huge smear of oil on the top lip and it's all I can smell now.  It was a a truly Homer Simpson moment!

----------


## gavin

I'd sleep with my mouth closed tonight if I was you.   :Smile:

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## drumgerry

And the windows shut eh Gavin?!

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## gavin

Just pop a veil on, you'll be fine.

----------


## drumgerry

I was thinking of lying down next to an empty hive tomorrow just on the off chance...... :Wink:

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## gavin

Consider this arrangement: BB {Drumgerry} SS QX cb rf.   They'll never work that one out Cheltenham way.

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## drumgerry

Or even better I can finally find a use for one of those effin top bar hives I built years ago!  Cut me off at the knees and a bit of liposuction and I could fit lengthwise!

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## Trog

> and my cell raiser is set up bb qex s s bb.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it gchq!


Ha ha!  :Big Grin:

----------


## gavin

Now you're getting silly.  Surely you don't need liposuction.

Restructure your Top Bars to a Warre and you could stand up and dispense with the amputation.  Just think of the _Nestduftwärmebindung ..... !_

----------


## drumgerry

Does that mean I'd have to cover my head with some straw, maybe add some ventilation at the bottom (cancel that no shortage there to be honest!) and not look at myself in the mirror from one year's end to the next?  And I'm trying hard to think of the Nestblahblahblah but my wee heid runs out of processing power at more than about 10 letters.

----------


## gavin

Absolutely.  Just remember to lock up all the llama dung just in case the missus has been listening to the wrong sort of beekeeper.  Imagine the _Nestduftwärmebindung!_

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## drumgerry

Now there's a thought.  I could cover myself in alpaca/llama dung, get the OH to paint me with some nice colours, hang myself from the rafters and invite Julia Bradbury round in order to give her a swift kick in the chops.

Or...in the words of Chewing the Fat have we "taken that too far"?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> 20 that turn into 10 SQCs that turn into 8 mated queens if I'm lucky DR!  Still very much got my L plates on with this stuff.  Plan as last year is to take my biggest hybridest colony and split it down into nucs using the queens I produce - a la Mike Palmer.  Had mixed results with it after our endless winterspring but still got hopes that this is the best way to up my numbers.
> 
> And my cell raiser is set up BB QEx s s BB.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it GCHQ!


Some years back I had about 35 hives of which half had been made using a single mother queen and mini nucs she was the best behaved, and a good layer, honey gatherer
The following year nearly all the hives with her daughters rattled with chalkbrood and were pretty useless
I put away the little mating nucs and went back to the snelgrove boards where each hive produces a new queen except the wild ones who get a new queen
This year I have done a few (4 so far) in a queen raising colony and I might do a few more from different mother colonies 
The chaps who are good at this may wait and use a second or third year mother queen I guess ?

If you are an L Plate driver Drumgerry I'm a drunk driver in the queen raising stakes  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

Nah, you can never take it too far.

The alpaca dung hive hanging in its own pergola could be a better earner than the fleeces.
Cow dung hives are so passé.

----------


## gavin

We probably have.  You were thinking of a nice pebbledash effect?  Too far, definitely too far.

----------


## lindsay s

I managed to get 9 colonies of bees through the Winter and into Spring.
1st April I lifted the crown boards and counted the seams of bees, it was too cold for a proper inspection. All colonies fed candy.
Mid April I cleaned all the floors and checked for stores, still too cold for inspecting.
8th May at last I managed to carry out a full inspection and none of the colonies had more than 4 bars of brood. Two over wintered nucs only had a small patch of brood.
Mid May I bumped off an old queen and united the colony with a nuc. Another colony was riddled with chalk brood so I bumped off their queen and united the bees with a nuc. I now have 7 colonies.
Since mid-May Ive been carrying out weekly inspections weather permitting . Yesterday morning  it was dull with a nip in the wind and only 11 ⁰c but the apiary visit had to be carried out (we all know that if you leave it to long the bees will be off  as soon as the sun comes out). My bees were certainly in the mood for stinging which doesnt help now that Im allergic to them. Luckily I dress for maximum protection and carry an EpiPen, my partner also comes with me for added insurance.
At the moment I have 2 strong colonies(hybrids D R), 3 that are OK and 2 that are weak(amm). 5 have a super on but only one is starting to make queen cells. Theres a lot more pollen in the hives ( compared to last year )and weve just had a short spell of good weather when the dandelions were out in full bloom. The wild white clover is just starting to flower and thats my main crop. Ideally I like to split a few hives and get a few supers of honey this year but now our Summers over maybe Im being too optimistic. :Frown:

----------


## drumgerry

At last someone sensible has come along DR!

L plates because this is my third year of systematic queen raising and I only started to get things right last year (thanks to lots of great advice from you lot on the forum).  I am a bit concerned about inbreeding depression as my intended breeder queen didn't make it through the winter and I've used the same breeder queen as last year.  But it'll be the last batch I graft from her I think.  I do the Harden queenright cell raiser/grafting/apidea method because I enjoy the process.  I like the fact that as my colony numbers (hopefully) increase I'll be able to scale up queen production using the same method.

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## The Drone Ranger

Painted paper Mache hives ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaLmdRBvGG4
Here's a recipe for the mache
surely better than cowdung?

I liked how the crazy lady lured Julia Bradbury into the danger area then nearly got her blinded all while making light of the situation

----------


## drumgerry

> Nah, you can never take it too far.
> 
> The alpaca dung hive hanging in its own pergola could be a better earner than the fleeces.
> Cow dung hives are so passé.



Well we get it by the trailer-load Jon.  So I could be a very rich man in a very short period of time!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I managed to get 9 colonies of bees through the Winter and into Spring.
>  Ideally I like to split a few hives and get a few supers of honey this year but now our Summers over maybe I’m being too optimistic.


Hi Lindsay 
I'm guessing its a shorter cold summer and that's hard the further North you go
Folk get bored hearing this but if you use a Snelgrove board or similar the old queen has all the flyers so you still have a chance of honey
The top box gets a new young queen with luck and you have a double queen hive for a while 
In good years you can separate the boxes and have doubled your hives
If it's not going well you can put the box with the young queen on the bottom remove the old girl and combine the bees
It's not cast iron guaranteed but I think its safer than making a standard split plus you can still get a crop of honey
You get stung less because you don't have to poke around in there so much  :Smile:

----------


## brothermoo

Last night we were getting our eye in at grafting

I found the Chinese tool real handy though others clicked with the paintbrush.   Good wee night dipping the toe into queen rearing!

__________________
sent via tapatalk

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## Adam

I have a chinese tool and don't like it and prefer a small paint brush.

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## Adam

Lindsay,
I blame most of my chalkbrood this year on a poor spring when the pollen was all used up and brood-rearing pretty well stopped for a while. CB is much better now but there's one hive that still has a little. (None last year with the same queen).
Is it worth putting small colonies in highly insulated boxes?

----------


## gavin

> Last night we were getting our eye in at grafting
> 
> I found the Chinese tool real handy though others clicked with the paintbrush.   Good wee night dipping the toe into queen rearing!


I've never tried a toe - does that work too?!

----------


## drumgerry

Left handed Swiss tool and headtorch is my combo of choice for grafting.

PS Gavin - you'll be relieved to know that  a swarm has not taken up residence on my face today!

----------


## fatshark

> 20 that turn into 10 SQCs that turn into 8 mated queens if I'm lucky DR!  Still very much got my L plates on with this stuff.  Plan as last year is to take my biggest hybridest colony and split it down into nucs using the queens I produce - a la Mike Palmer.  Had mixed results with it after our endless winterspring but still got hopes that this is the best way to up my numbers.
> 
> And my cell raiser is set up BB QEx s s BB.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it GCHQ!


I'm beginning to regret the code ... but to get back on topic (of making increase, not the Drumgerry-modified bait hive) a useful route might be to overwinter mated queens in mini-nucs and press them into service with early(ish) nucs split from your strongest overwintered hives. I did this this season and these generally did better than the bog standard overwintered nucs. The strong hives build up well in early spring - certainly better this year than nucs - and you can split a nuc off well before queen rearing can be started.

All this is climate dependent of course. I'm intending to scale up my overwintered queens in mini-nucs this season and have a cunning plan ... (or daft idea, depending whether it works or not).

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I'm beginning to regret the code ... but to get back on topic (of making increase, not the Drumgerry-modified bait hive) a useful route might be to overwinter mated queens in mini-nucs and press them into service with early(ish) nucs split from your strongest overwintered hives. I did this this season and these generally did better than the bog standard overwintered nucs. The strong hives build up well in early spring - certainly better this year than nucs - and you can split a nuc off well before queen rearing can be started.
> 
> All this is climate dependent of course. I'm intending to scale up my overwintered queens in mini-nucs this season and have a cunning plan ... (or daft idea, depending whether it works or not).


Hi Fatshark 
What is the best way to do this do you need to take out the feeder and add combs or double up ?
They seem so small but they are well insulated

----------


## fatshark

Good evening DR,
Jon is probably the oracle, or others on here as well. I've done it for the last 2-3 winters in double height Kielers. I'm not a great fan of the internal feeder as it only fits in the bottom floor and the bees are often up top. This year I built little frame feeders with a ply back and a QE front. They worked fantastically well (though I say so myself). I'll dig out a photo, but imagine a TBH frame feeder design built with common sense, lots of glue and some pretty crappy workmanship.

In mild winters I suspect this and a little TLC in placing them in a sheltered spot is probably enough.

This winter I lost one through freezing solid on a double digit frost. My cunning plan (above) was to shift them into the greenhouse. Initially I did this every night, lifting them gently on a sheet of wood. The novelty wore off in less than a week. I then took out a pane of glass from the greenhouse (it's wood and easily, er, butchered ... I mean the greenhouse is wood!) and replaced it with a sheet of ply with holes bored through for some 1.5" drainpipe. I then rigged this, sloping up slightly to fit into a vertical flat piece of ply that covered the entire entrance of the Kieler. This worked beautifully. Once the weather warmed the bees used the tunnel to fly out. They stayed like this until April/May when (after using the queens i wanted) I built a massive three story Kieler* and eventually moved them into a full nuc. I've just finished a Bailey change on is - from the Kieler frames to nationals. 

The greenhouse is kept at just above freezing. I keep agaves and other succulents in there. There's a single 100W heater on a temperature plug.

This approach was so successful that I'm building a racking system to take up to a dozen Kielers for next winter.

Finally, individual hot days in late March were no problem. The bees took cleansing flights and were untroubled that the greenhouse was in the high teens/low twenties. The bees only fly when it's warm enough outside.  Pics when I have time to get them off the computer ... I'm off to collect my QC's to go into Kielers tonight  :Smile: 

* which I dropped and totally wrecked, rebuilt the entire thing and saved the Q, which is another story altogether!

----------


## drumgerry

Fatshark - sounds brilliant mate!  We're planning to put a summerhouse in this year which is going to double as a grafting station and II lab (just about to buy some Schley kit and in the coming years make it my "big thing").  It'd be easy to rig up some mininuc towers with access via tube from inside it.  Just wondering if your 100W heater is expensive to run.  And whether you could post a link to the sort of heater.  

Just the thought of having ready to go queens in March and April makes me go all weak at the knees!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Fatshark 
I take my hat off to you for ingenuity and determination

BEE I Y SOS 

move over Nick Knowles

I grow pelargoniums -- greenhouse temp 10C through endless winter --- electric bill shocking

----------


## Jon

A system to overwinter queens in mini nucs is the holy grail of uk beebreeding as we would have queens available in April to compete with the imports.
last winter I started with about 15 apideas in September and the last ones succumbed in January.
Mind you my nucs did not do much better.
I would like to think last winter was a bit of an outlier as I have never had such problems before.
The previous winter I managed to get 4/4 apideas through.
It should be possible with decent autumn nutrition and a double apidea.
Pete Little/hivemaker has a system putting 4 mini nucs on top of a colony which provides a little heat.
I am still tinkering around to find out what will work.
I do a final batch of grafting in late August and those queens are the ones which stay in the apideas over winter.

----------


## fatshark

B*gger ... reloaded the page and lost my carefully grafted words!

100W should cost about 36p/day if on 100%. It won't be if you use a £15 temperature plug set (and checked) for about 3C and insulate your greenhouse well. Alternatively, I make a 'tent' around my mini-nucs and agaves from bubble wrap and stick the heater on the floor underneath the slatted shelving.

Search amazon for Dimplex Sunhouse heaters 100W. There are a few. This isn't what I've got (which I inherited from my mother and would fail every safety test known to man) but the principle is the same. A greenhouse specialist like Two Wests and Elliott might have expensive alternatives.

I like the system Pete L uses except for the potential disruption checking the colony underneath - I've not tried it, so will leave it for others to comment whether this is an issue. His woodworking skills are way beyond mine anyway. If I tried to make the sort of boss he does, with the power tools he uses, I'd have no fingers left to graft with.

Make sure any entrance tube slopes up ... the wind whistles across the entrance and the rain can be driven quite a way up the tube. A centimetre over a foot or so seems sufficient. Oops, mixed measurements.

I've only done the greenhouse thing this winter, so YMMV. Don't blame me! 

And I have absolutely no idea what the code DR used means  :Confused:

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## The Drone Ranger

> And I have absolutely no idea what the code DR used means


Haven't you seen DIY SOS on telly
This was Bee. I.Y.  SOS  sorry got to go GCHQ have sent the"lads" round for a "chat"

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## drumgerry

Superb info Fatshark - many thanks!  I won't hold you responsible if I make a mess of it.

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## gavin

> PS Gavin - you'll be relieved to know that  a swarm has not taken up residence on my face today!


Pity.  I had one on my head today, at least part of it.  Can't see how it could possibly have been mine (the bees, the head was mine) as those able to fly with a decent number of bees all have wings partially amputated.  It took three attempts to knock it into a Paynes box - the first two attempts got the majority of the bees but they drifted back to the rather inaccessible branch.  I wondered if the queen was flying back there from the mass knocked off, and whether the rain coming on encouraged her to drop into the box the last time.

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## The Drone Ranger

I usually try and cut off the branch they are on (if I can) 
It smells of queen and the idiot bees keep going back
Cart them down on the branch and with a stout whack get them in the hive box
and once they are bunged in a box just stick the branch at the front of the hive
It's not easy ,but its sometimes not as hard as hanging off a ladder wagging a branch above a cardboard box
Not worth getting killed for though

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## Trog

So if the next swarm lands on Gavin's head, he should cut it off and place it next to/under a box?  Hmmmm ... could be interesting to watch  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

I cut quite a big branch off a tree one year but as it snapped a bit unexpectedly the whole swarm came down on my wife's head
She was guarding the box and holding the bottom of the ladder luckily she had a bee jacket on but still was a bit miffed
I have to do it on my own now

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## gavin

There was a bee excitedly exploring the kitchen not 5 mins ago so I went to see my partner's bait hive along the road. One bee there too.  How to make it a des res? I know - lemon grass oil is in the car.  OK, a couple of drops and it all smells sweet, but one flipped off the dropper and hit my finger. Instant reaction and I wiped it on my jeans. The bum area.  Why did I do that?!! Window definitely closed tonight ...

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## drumgerry

Ha!  See  - it's not just me who's a clutz with the lemongrass then!

I can imagine the confusion of the scout bees with all the conflicting aromas wafting from that area!

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## The Drone Ranger

> T OK, a couple of drops and it all smells sweet, but one flipped off the dropper and hit my finger. Instant reaction and I wiped it on my jeans. The bum area.  Why did I do that?!! Window definitely closed tonight ...
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


Jeans ??? 
I had pictured plus fours

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## drumgerry

...or maybe blue velvet breeches with little lace cuffs at the calves.

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## Jon

> ...or maybe blue velvet breeches with little lace cuffs at the calves.


De rigueur in Dundee I hear. Apparently 50% of the population wears a monocle and every other shop sells jodhpurs.

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## gavin

What are you guys on?! The scruffiest blue denims money can buy (a couple of years ago), for work and play. Must admit I did buy a rather fetching bow tie for this Saturday's bee do.  The ESBA is a hundred yrs old. 

Currently in the association shed and chuckling whilst making up frames. We do have colonies in heat, as it were, but thankfully the evening is cool and there are none exploring my scented areas. 

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## Jon

> Currently in the association shed and chuckling


More likely he's in the Garrick Club quaffing a fine Port with his old Etonian chums.

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## fatshark

> What are you guys on?! The scruffiest blue denims money can buy (a couple of years ago), for work and play.


Yeah, yeah ... I can assure readers that Jon is entirely correct. I lived in Dundee in the early 80's and spent many a happy hour in Monocles'R'Us in Dens Road and that quaint little riding outfitters next to Tannadice. 

Tally Ho!

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## The Drone Ranger

I thought all professors of something or other wore smoking jackets ,plus fours and tartan silk waistcoats
Now I find bow ties are part of the outfit
perfume is lemon grass 
A beekeeping Bo Brummel I had imagined
Sadly down on his luck he now spends most of his time in a shed

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## drumgerry

Nicky Fairbairn reborn!

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## Jon

Obama has the shed bugged and this was the conversation relayed to him via GCHQ

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## Trog

Bees in the news again today: heavy losses in England over winter http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22861651.  Seems to me that any type of bee does OK in good conditions but only the tough local native/native-cross types survive a bad year.  Why is it that these surveys neglect to ask what type of bee folk are keeping and in what sort of hive?  That would be useful data.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Nicky Fairbairn reborn!


I wondered who that chap on the front page of the ESBA newsletter was

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## gavin

Now you can see how wrong Drumgerry was!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Bees in the news again today: heavy losses in England over winter http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22861651.  Seems to me that any type of bee does OK in good conditions but only the tough local native/native-cross types survive a bad year.  Why is it that these surveys neglect to ask what type of bee folk are keeping and in what sort of hive?  That would be useful data.


Partly its because folk including me don't make enough adjustments to their bee management during the year to take account of conditions.
Sadly folk with newly purchased bees make even more bad decisions (mostly by following the crowd)
A lot of the imports come from very hostile climates so its not their fitness I worry about just moving disease around country to country
Once you get to know your bees you have a feel for what they are up to or need in an average season (last year wasn't one of them)
But there is no doubt that if your bees are local, and you do follow what everyone else locally does you, either all get it right or all get it wrong together

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## The Drone Ranger

> Now you can see how wrong Drumgerry was!
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


Aha you are awake 
How many frames did you get done ?

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## gavin

Two boxes worth. In between forum-peeking, chuckling and admiring the self-sown orchid in one of our hostess' decorative raised borders. Who needs a wild flower meadow when the flora comes to you.

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## The Drone Ranger

Not bad going Gavin, your swarms will pull them out for you

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## gavin

Only splits at the association apiary, so far anyway. The three best queens have already made Q cells and are in their own nucs, and the rest of these three colonies either split into several Paynes nucs or sitting with Q cells awaiting splitting. Two other colonies there, one moved up today into a Swienty and the other not ready yet. Samples of all 5 in the freezer for Jon. 

The swarms were at my own apiary. Checked them out today and the remaining queens are where they should be - so I think I lost 2 swarms and in return have 2 casts from somewhere else (with some yellow bees), busy drawing out comb.   

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## The Drone Ranger

Sorry Gavin had the wrong end of the stick
Ron Brown reckoned if you could keep the syrup feeding just right swarms will go on drawing wax until the flow stops when you forget to top up

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## gavin

You reckon I should have syrup on?!  Was letting nature take its course .... and they are filling frames and drawing comb, for now anyway.  Mostly OSR but there is other stuff coming in too, darker, maybe a spot of hawthorn.  I have rather too many bees at the minute and would struggle to keep up if they all demand more foundation!

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## The Drone Ranger

Good area for them then 
It takes a lot of nectar to draw lots of wax

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## drumgerry

Gave a sealed queen cell to my 10 mininucs this afternoon - mininucs confined in the dark till tomorrow AM when I'll let them fly free.  Ps - it seems to take me about 1.5 supers worth of bees to fill 10 mininucs at 250ml a pop.

Had a spare SQC so gave it to a colony which has been queenless since early Spring.  For some strange reason they seem to be hanging in there and not dwindling too much.   No laying workers either.  So I thought there's nothing to be lost giving them the extra queen cell.  They're probably doomed but what the hell!

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## The Drone Ranger

I checked what old Ron Brown had to say on the wax drawing front
he says the wax drawing bees keep hard at as long as they can get some nectar or thin syrup
but if the flow stops even for short time they stop drawing wax and never go back to it again
So feed swarms unless there is plenty of income (bad weather ahead ?)

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## The Drone Ranger

> You reckon I should have syrup on?!  !


To go with the rest of the get up
Why not  :Smile: 
Russ Abbots spare orange one

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## Bridget

Almost back to normal.  One hive is making use of the super and i think the other is catching up.  Today the bees were crowding round their front door for the first time this year and making a lot of noise. . Only hope the heather recovers in time for the heather honey seeing as i wont get much now.  Round here the heather has  been devastated by the winter cold east wind and the lack of rain.  Where there usually is heather there are brown patches or the greenery has taken over.


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## gavin

Glad that the bees are back to normal - but that is worrying about the heather which perhaps was going to be the crop that saved the season for many of us.  Those brown patches may be an attack of heather beetle.  The last serious heather beetle I saw was a couple of years back near the Aviemore to Coire Cas road.

Here is a picture of damage to heather on Raasay: http://skyeraasayplants.wordpress.co...solitary-bees/

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## Bridget

Ill have a closer look at it Gavin.  I just thought it was the long winter.

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## fatshark

Couldn't resist checking for progress in the first swarm I caught this year - a cast from my own hive on the 6th. Delighted to see two full frames of eggs and larvae ... These were treated with OA on the 9th and she must have nipped out to mate around then. A second swarm that occupied a bait hive on the 8th are queenright but have no eggs yet.

Found a chicken on my way back from the apiary and spent 30 minutes feeding it chunks of drone brood I'd chopped out earlier. No idea where it came from as the nearest farm/house keeping chickens is a mile away.

Thought I'd also join the 21st Century by purchasing Tapatalk as the icons on the web interface to SBAi are simply too small for my increasingly dodgy eyesight and fat fingers.

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## Bridget

Further to my earlier post ImageUploadedByTapatalk1371406971.588436.jpghere's a photo I took this pm of the heather damage in my area which is pine forest (natural not forestry).  Will also have to go out onto the moorland and see what it's like there.

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## drumgerry

Working on one of my Paynes nucs in the garage this evening to remove the feeder and all was going swimmingly.  Needed a frame to check the clearance where the feeder had been removed.  On the outside wall of the garage is my bait hive which has been getting checked out all week (it's an un-modded Paynes nuc) by scouts but no swarm had taken up residence yet.  I had dismissed the scouts as possibly robbers as the frames in the nuc had a smidgeon of stores left in them.

So....on going round to grab a frame, lifted the lid to be confronted by the sight of rather a large quantity of bees. Uh oh thought I and replaced the lid rather rapidly.  Quickly suited up and returned.  Sure enough a swarm and 4/5 frames worth of bees in residence!  Great thought I!  Quickly scanned for the queen and damn it if she isn't marked blue as one of my own!

Damn!  No free bees to be had round here!  And my last inspection was last Monday at which all colonies had no queen cups with larvae.  Or so I thought!  Just shows there's no certainties in beekeeping.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry
you can use them though to get lots of new wax drawn much more so than a normal colony
That's a bonus  :Smile:

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## gavin

Heather is fairly tough stuff and the winter wasn't marked (as I remember) by dramatic low temperatures so I think heather beetle is more likely. Another thing is that heather beetle damaged stands turn brick-red (as your picture seems to show) whereas frosted heather is more grey.

This seems to be the best guide: http://media.wix.com/ugd/111722_9d83...b9aa2f9f41.pdf

Heather beetle damage has been a big issue over the years for beekeepers of all scales using the hills.  It can ruin sites for heather honey.

G.

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## gavin

> Couldn't resist checking for progress in the first swarm I caught this year - a cast from my own hive on the 6th. Delighted to see two full frames of eggs and larvae ... These were treated with OA on the 9th and she must have nipped out to mate around then. A second swarm that occupied a bait hive on the 8th are queenright but have no eggs yet.


I have one queen of that age but no eggs yet. 




> Found a chicken on my way back from the apiary and spent 30 minutes  feeding it chunks of drone brood I'd chopped out earlier.


LOL!  There speaks a man with too much time on his hands ...

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## Jon

That's exactly the kind of thing I would do if I came across a stray hen.
I remember as a youngster the hens used to help remove the leatherjackets as we dug over the vegetable patch.
So much more than an mere egglayer.
Scarify the lawn for you as well.

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## The Drone Ranger

when small hive beetle gets here hens will be the natural defence
They will be the beekeepers friend
You heard it here first  :Smile:

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## Trog

Chickens and drone brood in wild comb: a natural combination!  I just took the comb to a spot far enough away from interested bees and called the hens over.  They wasted no time in helping themselves to a tasty treat.

Today I got stung ... and didn't react, despite having to finish going through a large hive before I could go inside to get some anthisan on it.  (The sting site, not the hive) Hurrah!

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## drumgerry

Schley1.jpgSchley2.jpg

This arrived in the post today!  I haven't pictured the other gubbins such as the CO2 apparatus.  Need to learn how to use it now!

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## Jon

Now you are up and running Gerry!

Saw some virgins from the first batch of grafts on Friday 7th today.
A couple of them were out out the cell in the rollers a full day early.
Nice looking queens anyway so good to be up and running with a few apideas set out.
I have about 30 more cells started.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Apologies DR "beeequipped.co.uk" they are in Derbyshire


Hi Nemphlar that was an ace tip on Apideas I just took delivery of 10
they are £19-50 now including vat
Next Day Delivery to Scotland £12-00

Total £207

That's only £20-70 each including delivery

Thornes' price is £33 !!!

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## Jon

That is a really good price.
Tempted to get more.

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## gavin

Was in Thornes today myself and saw the price ... plus bumped into Phil McA there stocking up on beekeeping consumables before helping out at the RHS in a couple of days.

Ten Apideas Droney?  Sounds like a semi-decent breeding programme you're planning there.  If you are interested, I'd be happy to share germplasm in the way of eggs from some nice dark locals.  Some of the genetics traces back to you via the Claverhouse Group from where we bought one of the three colonies starting this little venture.  Since then, we've added local swarms, some of my stock, and of course many local drones, but they seem still native-ish.

G.

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## drumgerry

£19.50 is a great price!  Don't Thornes charge something daft like £30 each for them?!  Last ones I got were from Paynes @£23.50 each.  Shame the £19.50 place don't have online ordering.

Gavin - if you have any spare queens going I'd be glad to have one or more here in Speyside!  Trying to get hold of some foundation queens to graft from and eventually II.  Sick of the genetic hodge podge I have at the moment.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Was in Thornes today myself and saw the price ... plus bumped into Phil McA there stocking up on beekeeping consumables before helping out at the RHS in a couple of days.
> 
> Ten Apideas Droney?  Sounds like a semi-decent breeding programme you're planning there.  If you are interested, I'd be happy to share germplasm in the way of eggs from some nice dark locals.  Some of the genetics traces back to you via the Claverhouse Group from where we bought one of the three colonies starting this little venture.  Since then, we've added local swarms, some of my stock, and of course many local drones, but they seem still native-ish.
> 
> G.


What happened is first batch 1 out of 5
second batch 3 out of 5 1 died so 2 out of 5

Success rate was only 20%

so switched to JZ/BZ cups and grafted 16 (thought I had done 18)
Expecting 6 or so queen cells---- from a black queen not stinger and no Chalk (honey gatherer --don't know)
Typically I now get 14 starts which are now queen cells and capping
Of course now the apideas have been bought they will all probably keel over
I have the Snelgrove boards on but any chalkbrood prone and the grumpies will be requeened
There is a long way to go to mated queens 
The Apideas are just empty boxes for now

I looked at the Claverhouse bees a few weeks ago and they were brilliant healthy, big colonies no stingers etc
I would have been delighted if mine had been doing as well :

It was a Darth Vader moment you know the one where Vader says :-

"I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. 
We meet again, at last. 
The circle is now complete.
 When I left you, I was but the learner;
 now *I* am the master. "

If I had a spare queen I thought was AMM ish you could have it gratis
At the moment I don't know what I have or how it will turn out yet  :Smile: 

Thanks for the offer of some new genetics I might get back to you on that one

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## The Drone Ranger

> Attachment 1573Attachment 1574
> 
> This arrived in the post today!  I haven't pictured the other gubbins such as the CO2 apparatus.  Need to learn how to use it now!


Drumgerry you crazy spendthrift
Have fun

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## Dark Bee

> Attachment 1573Attachment 1574
> 
> This arrived in the post today!  I haven't pictured the other gubbins such as the CO2 apparatus.  Need to learn how to use it now!


Looks very professional, have fun experimenting. I take it you have all the bits and pieces - be careful with the syringe tips, breaking them is expensive. :Cool: 
Wishing you the best of luck - enjoy learning.

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## fatshark

Any idea what these are? I've got a fair idea what they're doing?

censored.jpg

Syrphid shenanigans ... poor quality shot I'm afraid.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Any idea what these are? I've got a fair idea what they're doing?
> 
> censored.jpg
> 
> Syrphid shenanigans ... poor quality shot I'm afraid.


They look like one of the bee flies rather then bees
Oh! Syrphid flies are bee flies then

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## drumgerry

> Drumgerry you crazy spendthrift
> Have fun


Thanks DR!  Had to think long and hard about it but I'm seeing it as an investment for the future.

And yep Dark Bee got all the rest of the gubbins along with it.  Reminds me of my old Dynaking fly tying vice if that means anything to anyone!

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## fatshark

HMH man myself drumgerry ...

Syrphids are hover flies. I thought bee flies have very long probosci (proboscids?).

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## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks DR!  Had to think long and hard about it but I'm seeing it as an investment for the future.
> 
> And yep Dark Bee got all the rest of the gubbins along with it.  Reminds me of my old Dynaking fly tying vice if that means anything to anyone!


Now you need a nice trout stream --- sorry I mean mother queen

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## drumgerry

Jeez DR - I live almost on the banks of one of the seriously expensive parts of the Spey - could chuck a stone in from the bedroom window just about.  But no way could I afford to fish it.  Even if I could I wouldn't pay it.  So I spend the season dodging hoorays in their Range Rovers.   Come the revolution...... (whoops didn't mean it GCHQ honest!)

Oh and Fatshark my piscatorial days are pretty much over so the Dynaking went to a good home courtesy of Ebay!  HMH - nice!

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## The Drone Ranger

> HMH man myself drumgerry ...
> 
> Syrphids are hover flies. I thought bee flies have very long probosci (proboscids?).


Dont trust them 
They boast a lot about their proboscis

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## The Drone Ranger

> Jeez DR - I live almost on the banks of one of the seriously expensive parts of the Spey - could chuck a stone in from the bedroom window just about.  But no way could I afford to fish it.  Even if I could I wouldn't pay it.  So I spend the season dodging hoorays in their Range Rovers.   Come the revolution...... (whoops didn't mean it GCHQ honest!)


There was a house sold near me recently inc a 2 acre plot with fishing rights on the river Isla
Don't know what its like these days but as a boy there were grayling trout and salmon

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## gavin

> Gavin - if you have any spare queens going I'd be glad to have one or more here in Speyside!  Trying to get hold of some foundation queens to graft from and eventually II.  Sick of the genetic hodge podge I have at the moment.


Jon is doing some morphometry on the 5 at the association apiary and so far they look near-Amm on wing morphometry.  We'll post the plots here at some stage.  Bear in mind that these have never been selected for wing morphometry, just for 'looking like' Amm in an area with imports.  There are some banded bees around but not many and I think that they are all in one colony.

If we have any spare later this summer I'd be delighted to send you one or two.  Could also send eggs if they are of interest.

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## Jon

Eggs could be a plan as they are very resilient. All you would need to do is cut a hole in a comb and insert the comb with the eggs in.
You could then graft larvae a couple of days later.
I've never tried this but it should work unless the comb is totally mistreated in the post.

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## gavin

Stick it in a box then Jon?   :Wink: 

(our experience with padded envelopes has not been that good .... )

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## gavin

> All you would need to do is ....


Or if that doesn't work (and conversations that Dave Cushman recorded suggest it might not), make a queenless egg- and young larvae-less cell starter, then introduce the eggs.  Cutting the comb into strips and positioning pointing down in the spaces between the top bars might be effective in going straight to a few queen cells, unless the comb is too fragile.  

A mated queen is going to carry a lot more genetic diversity of course (in that spermatheca).

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## Jon

The other possibility would be posting drone semen.
I believe it stays viable for a couple of weeks.

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## gavin

Interesting.  Gerry can come and squeeze our drones whenever he likes!  Here's that picture of Santa Claus again.  I have a beard so I guess I could do it.



Looking back at the plots Gerry posted on 25th Jan ours are a little but not a lot better. They would add some diversity to his material.

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## gavin

> Syrphid shenanigans ... poor quality shot I'm afraid.


Decent (indecent) photo in my eyes.  If it is *really* imitating a bee then we all know what should happen next  :EEK!: 

What happens to bumble bees in that situation?  Do the drones live to try again another day?  Where is Dave Goulson when you need him?

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## drumgerry

I'd be up for having a go with eggs if anyone wants to send me some. This year I'm pretty much going to be experimenting (the beekeeping version of Dr Mengele here!) on my hybrids with II so I'd not want to waste drone semen from native-ish types.  The reason being I'm likely to make an arse of things and I'm probably not likely to get a proper II queen till I'm properly familiar and confident with it all.  Btw - I'll be only too happy to give you guys an II queen once I'm good at it!

For my open mated queens if I don't change my genetics I'm doomed to have endless hybrids as there are not many bees apart from mine round here.  So I'm trying to do what we did with the alpacas - get good foundation stock and start from there.

My plot from 25th Jan is the breeder queen I used again in the last couple of weeks.  Problem is her daughters offspring will be even less AMM after their dalliance with my multi-coloured drones.  The only good thing is that my bees are pretty much locally-adapted and decent tempered. But their use of stores, the temperatures they fly in and their unceasing brood production in dodgy conditions are not what I want.  Interestingly my breeder queen colony (probably my most AMM type) came through the winter with loads of stores and has built up nice and steadily since SPring.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Drumgerry

It doesn't matter a fly whether all her daughters mate with cross eyed drones 
All the drones these daughters produce will only carry their genes ie AMM type
Thats the good news and your hives probably control the local mating station so your in a good position
Amm drones are what you need for your crazy Frankenstein device
I don't think you will have much bother getting a few unmated Amm queens posted to you

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## Jon

A queencell at day 11 from grafting with half a dozen attendants and a little food in a roller cage with it would be easy to post as well.
The queens are fully formed and moving inside the cell at that stage.
As DR says, no matter what these mate with they would produce only AMM drones.
It takes 2 years to get all your colonies set up producing the right drones when you are starting from scratch.

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## drumgerry

Sorry DR I meant that the colonies the daughters will produce are hybridised because of the rest of my drones (what they ave mated wif)!

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## drumgerry

Queencells, virgin queens, eggs - bring it on! lol :Big Grin:

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## The Drone Ranger

How does a bit of comb with eggs get used
I thought any bees you give them to will just munch them up ?
Do you have to keep them warm til the egg hatches ?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Sorry DR I meant that the colonies the daughters will produce are hybridised because of the rest of my drones (what they ave mated wif)!


The good news though, is the whole colony can be hybridised, but all the drones (because they only have moms genes) can be pure as the driven snow

Here's Good old Snelgrove's plan
Get pure mother raise daughters requeen all your stocks in the apiary
The daughters will have been mated by the bee next door so her workers are hybrids but her drones are pure
Next get a different pure mother raise daughters from her this time the drone next door is a pure one from your hives
So yippee!"! all the daughters mate with suitable partners and now lay pure workers and pure drones

Cue sunset "and they all lived happily ever after "  :Smile: 

Because you have a fierce instrument of bee torture available, you can speed the whole process up, avoiding the flying around mating bit  which is generally where it all goes wrong.
The girls don't get to run off and mate with johnny foreigner oh ! no it's the good old arranged marriage to a good chap with the right type of wings and undercarriage  :Smile: 

Plus at the going rate of £45 a pop you will soon be able to look the wife in the eye and say "told you it would pay for itself"

You know all this already but folk reading the thread might not and my typing finger needed some exercise  :Smile:

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## gavin

Not 10 min ago I opened a split from ESBA1 (wing plot to follow, there are maybe 5% banded bees the rest Amm-looking). This one had spare Q cells left, and the first out was piping. So there are now 2 virgin walking about roller cages with a smear of honey and 2 attendants. PM/email your address if you want them and they'll be in the post tonight. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

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## drumgerry

PM sent Gavin!

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## Jon

That one has a reasonably good plot, Gerry, and all the bees in it were dark. No yellow banding seen at all in the sample I tested which had about 70 bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

> That one has a reasonably good plot, Gerry, and all the bees in it were dark. No yellow banding seen at all in the sample I tested which had about 70 bees.


that was no sample that was a complete hive of AMM bees put to the sword
moreover the piping identifies them clearly as Scottish from clan MacNoswarm

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## gavin

And the bums looked hairy to me. There are some (a few) banded ones so presumably at least one of the drones she mated with was one of those southern types. Unless they've wandered in from somewhere - the colony was at the end of the line.

The whole apiary is a similar type, without the banded ones in other colonies. They often have pollen all round the brood nest too. 

Feel free to post the plot in the long thread on plots in the native bees area if you like Jon. Otherwise I'll do it late this evening.

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## gavin

Lol! They were thinking of swarming but I intervened and they now occupy 7 boxes, they were that strong.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Lol! They were thinking of swarming but I intervened and they now occupy 7 boxes, they were that strong.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


All in different counties

I hope neither you nor Jon have lost the plot ?

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## The Drone Ranger

Stung in the butt 3 times
spotted bees going in and out of bait hive in afternoon
Went back at night found big swarm outside hive covering one side and wrapping round front and back
Being a moron I go get a paynes nuc with new foundation put some food in slot and block it to stop bees going in there
How many times do bees need to ignore the tiny entrance and run under the hive where they cling to the underfloor mesh 
It always happens and I should know not to use them for this job
Scoop them up chuck them in take cardboard out of feed slot
They look very like buckfast bees
I have two hives like that but they are both very gentle
These bees are biaches and are stinging anything that moves (me)
I have two black which I consider wild but they are gentle compared to these boogers
Lets hope tomorrow they have improved or pushed off again
The rape is going over so swarming will be a rear danger now for me

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## gavin

> How many times do bees need to ignore the tiny entrance and run under the hive where they cling to the underfloor mesh 
> It always happens and I should know not to use them for this job


Every time with the old design. I usually put a piece of wood in the way to encourage them to walk up. The new design with the hole in the side overcomes this. 

I had hoped all the local Buckfast had died out ... But folk do keep importing such unsuitable types ... Have some individuals like that appearing in my hives which shows they're near me too.  
Jon posted plots last night but if you're using Tapatalk the 'stickied' thread doesn't appear to be visible. Only on the web interface. 


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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Gavin
I saw the plots and they must be encouraging
When looking at the DCA subject the idea of a wide exclusion zone round each DCA came up
You might be lucky and get local drone control so good luck with that
Apiary vicinity mating could be a good thing but it made me wonder if drones congregate more where lots of virgin queens appear
If that is the case then lots of mating activity in your local DCA might attract more outside area drones after a while

In fairness there are lots of very gentle buckfast bees and crosses of all types
There are some aggressive AMM strains as well you only have to read they older bee books to confirm that
In a time when beekeepers concentrated only on getting honey they tolerated some pretty grim behaviour

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## Jon

I am pretty sure that all bee sub species and Buckfast as well are fairly docile when crossed within race.
Even the most rudimentary breeding programme selecting for docility and eliminating queens heading aggressive colonies will deliver a massive improvement in stock in just 2 or 3 years.
Problem is, most beekeepers just let their bees swarm and requeen themselves crossing with whatever drones happen to be on the wing at the time. A couple of generations down the line you have a colony producing an assortment of hybridised virgin queens which continue to cross with the local drones - which likely include some from recent imports as well.
A population like this will never stabilise and will throw up some horrendous aggressive colonies as well as the odd decent one.
The thing about black bees being aggressive is one of the biggest myths in beekeeping. I have several colonies you can work bare handed if you want to.

Note the protection worn by the demonstrator at the Galtee apiary.
opening-up..jpg

Tom Robinson from the Bibba committee doesn't look to worried about what might emerge from that box either.

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## madasafish

> The thing about black bees being aggressive is one of the biggest myths in beekeeping. I have several colonies you can work bare handed if you want to.
> 
> Note the protection worn by the demonstrator at the Galtee apiary.
> opening-up..jpg
> 
> Tom Robinson from the Bibba comittee doesn't look to worried about what might emerge from that box either.


My belief  - and practice - is that beekeeping should be enjoyable . If it can't be done bare handed , it's not worth doing.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My belief  - and practice - is that beekeeping should be enjoyable . If it can't be done bare handed , it's not worth doing.


Dead right Madasafish
My bees are a mixture of types but I don't put up with grumpies 
I can work with them bare handed easily
I use the thin latex ones to avoid disease transfer between hives
Most times smoke is just a standby to get the boxes back together without squashing the little monkeys

I thought the two I am requeening for following and getting the hump were bad
But I now see some folk would think they were fine or better than that

Went through my two hives with similar looking bees today all present, marked, and correct 
So the new lot are interlopers from elsewhere (when the rape is nearly over bees put on it start swarming )

Luckily the old chap who dumped his dead out Nuc hive with me and said "if you get a swarm bung them in here" has just got his wish
If they stay in the polynuc drawing out some wax I'll move them to his ply nuc and he can have them
He is a very experienced beekeeper so he can deal with them 
A newbie would be put off forever I recon
And I will wear jeans that don't hang down and a longer teashirt to avoid presenting a vulnerable target when moving them
_Cue Butt jokes_

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## gavin

> They were thinking of swarming but I intervened and they now occupy 7 boxes, they were that strong.






> All in different counties
> 
> I hope neither you nor Jon have lost the plot ?


Did get the joke yesterday and I was in the association shed again where I did chuckle once more....

Here they are.  ESBA1.  One Swienty box of lovely, well-behaved dark bees, which got a second Swienty box of which they used two or three frames before needing ASed.  I split off a couple of frames with the old queen - she's on the stand at the back right in the Paynes box.  Then a few days later the main box (which had the flying bees) was split into 6, each with two good frames of bees and a Q cell or cells.  In those few days 12 frames had become 14.  The Swienty box went behind as I thought bees would recognise it as home so I made it harder to find.  The arc of 5 Paynes boxes was supposed to collect a random sample of the fliers, Vince Cook style, and it seems to have worked.



Now each box has about three frames of bees and the honey is piling in.  Plus there's one queen hatched in an Apidea behind the shed and two virgins being soaked and dumped in Apideas in Speyside as we speak (I hope!).  (Stop press: as I wrote that Gerry was emailing to say: Job done!)

If they all get mated (I'll report back), that is a multiplication rate - from one iffy  overwintering survivor - of 6 (I'll knock off one for the old queen,  though she should be good for a second year).

Why the Scottish  Government is subsidising the mass importation of non-native, maladapted  strains that are likely to hybridise with stocks like these is ....  well .... it isn't sensible.  At all.  Gerry there is one thing you can do for me - make sure that meeting with Richard Lochhead is an effective one.

G.

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## GRIZZLY

Just removed 70 pounds of honey from the rape with more  to follow . Used limited smoke and always operate my bees bare handed. I've never worn gloves and probably only get 2 or 3 stings a year. Normally they won't react if you are calm and gentle. No swarms so far but I expect them to make preparation as the rape goes off. Nice to see such increase Gavin . If everyone did  the same - we would be self sufficient with regard to neucs for beginners.

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## drumgerry

"Lost the plot" - a joke only a bee breeding geek would get! :Big Grin: 

Great pic Gavin.  Good to see ESBA1 becoming ESBA1+.  I have something similar in mind for my yellowest lot with darker queens to head them.  So at least there's an upside to all the brood production.

Your ESBA virgins are now being given the lowdown on Speyside by my bees in a couple of brand spanking new Apideas as we speak.  Currently sitting closed up (per Jon's instructions) and in the dark in my shed till tomorrow.  My OH is particularly pleased we now have a couple of Dundonians as she did her trainee journalist course at DC's.  Fingers crossed all is well.  

I may have sourced a nice local dark queen to graft from having just seen a pic posted on Facebook by one of our Spey Beeks members.  From what I know of the background to their bees I suspect they're native-ish.

Richard Lochhead meeting a work in progress.  Will let you know.

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## The Drone Ranger

Old FC pellet describes a langstroth method of raising queen cells which basically goes like this
Split a strong double box hive of the best type bees into 3 Nucs _a,b,c_
The queen is in _a_
Two are queen less _b,c_ and will raise cells which you harvest by cutting out
the queen moves into_ b_ for a week to 9 days 
The queen moves to _c_ for week to 9 days 
Cells from_ a_ are harvested 
The queen moves to_ b_
Etc 
No grafting just a sharp pocket knife 
You still need the mating hives but you can do this with a white stick and delirium tremens and still get it right  :Smile: 
never tried it but it sounds straightforward

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## Jon

> Old FC pellet describes a langstroth method of raising queen cells


Someone mention pellets?

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## Dark Bee

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;19326]Old FC pellet describes a langstroth method of raising queen cells which basically goes like this
Split a strong double box hive of the best type bees into 3 Nucs _a,b,c_..................................................  ..................................................  .......


My initial reaction is that one is expecting parts of a full colony to raise queen cells. Hardly a receipe for consistently raising quality queens or have I missed something?

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## The Drone Ranger

Dark bee you probably are right 
Best check out the book for the exact method I probably have it wrong
When I make a split over a Snelgrove board I usually put the Q/exc in and wait till cells are started before the board goes on but not always
I leave the queen raising to the experts  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

Well two colonies now up and running. Great to have them back after my only hive carked it in February. They are going mad for the broom at the moment - so much about and every bush covered in yellow flowers. My bee friendly garden is coming along nicely.....they especially like the pond it seems. Phacelia and Borage about to flower soon.

Having said that its the first day of Summer and the first rain I've had in three weeks...typical.

Just need to get them built up now and might sneak a honey crop if lucky.

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## chris

> They are going mad for the broom at the moment - so much about and every bush covered in yellow flowers. .


Funny that- here the hills are covered in broom as well at the moment, and the bees never touch it. Are there several varieties, and we have the wrong one ?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Funny that- here the hills are covered in broom as well at the moment, and the bees never touch it. Are there several varieties, and we have the wrong one ?


They are finding something nicer wonder what it is ?
How's the weather been in France Chris I saw a news item that Germany has had flash floods and all sorts

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## chris

Masses of all types of wild flowers plus the leguminous ones that were sown decades ago when the area had more sheep grazing.
Over in the south west, bad flooding-agricultural catastrophy, and many of the claret vineyards washed out. Here, a heatwave since last week, though today the temps are back below 30. Potatoes growing more quickly than I can earth them up. Jon is lucky being able to do it in the driving rain!!

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## lindsay s

Third day of poor weather up here, plenty of rain and fog. My bees need attention but its been too cold to open up the hives. Ive got supers, frames and empty nucs at the ready. Im just waiting for a break in the weather and hoping the bees dont swarm before I can get to them. :Frown:

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## The Drone Ranger

Pretty wet here today 
Moved the queen cells to apideas but weather turned cold tonight
Did a little cell punching anyway
Best of luck with the swarming Lindsay they usually wait till the weather improves then make a break for it  :Smile:

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## gavin

Duck tape a brolly to your back, make sure you have an extra layer of clothing on so that the stings don't get through, given that its getting dark tape a torch to the side of your head, and just get on with it!  You know it makes sense ....

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## lindsay s

Your right Gavin inspections will be carried out tomorrow reguardless  of the weather otherwise Doris will make off with the swarms.

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## Neils

Not looked at all this week. The weather's rotten and none of them really need looking at.  Three that are inevitably picking the crap weather to try and mate queens, one that refuses to bring any honey in.

Instead I'm tearing my hair out trying to arrange Basic Assessments. Bless the BBKA but the current system doesn't make it easy for someone working 16 hours a day at the stuff that actually pays wages to try and slot in a bit of organising the 30+ assessments that we have on the table this year.  Herding cats with added paperwork is how I've described it before and I'm sticking to it. It is much, much harder work than it should be. I've implemented multi million pound projects that were less stress than getting a few people through their basic assessment.

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## lindsay s

A strong north westerly wind here today and not warmer than 12c but I managed to get the inspections done. Despite the conditions there weren't to many stings and the mood of the bees was far better than I expected. On the plus side a visiting beekeeper gave me a hand and that cut down the time the hives were open. On the minus side trying to inspect brood frames when 90% of the bees were at home wasn't easy. All the colonies had a lot more pollen than this time last year and a few are starting to fill their supers. Two colonies had queen cells with eggs and the rest showed no signs of swarming so I didn't bother with any splits today. Now I can sleep tight for another week.

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## fatshark

As suspected, the swarm I caught on Friday was from my own apiary. They swarmed from only about 5-6 frames of brood which was a pretty poor show. Now re-housed, I found the queen and she's already laid up the best part of a frame of newly drawn foundation (don't you just love how fast swarms set up home?). I re-marked her and clipped her so she won't be off again ... and as soon as my mated queens are ready she'll be going to a reserve nuc prior to pensioning her off/giving her away. She's marked blue as I put my white pen through the wash in the pocket of my beesuit! I'm colour blind and can't see this year and next years 'official' colours.

Set up my Ben Harden cell raiser in a hive that has three nearly full supers already. I always add the grafts to a box immediately above the QE and then move them above the supers after they've been started ... primarily because I don't want to be lifting all that weight every time I check them.  Better weather today and the bees were wonderfully calm.

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## greengumbo

Just back from outside. Walked past the large cotoneaster and it was literally alive with bees (geoff). Must have been about 200. None yesterday or this morning so they must have just found it.

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## fatshark

Thoroughly unpleasant grafting session this evening ... nothing to do with the bees or the weather, both of which were near perfect. It was the hay fever ... by the time I started picking larvae I was sniffing and sneezing and had (even more horribly) piggy eyes that I could barely see out of. The sacrifices we make!

I suspect some of the 'larvae' were nearing the blue eyed stage. I'll find out tomorrow.

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## fatshark

Whether they were blue eyed or not, the grafts took :-) Hay fever no better but I now know i can graft with my eyes almost closed ...

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## chris

I had a good look at some of the lime trees today. The green flower buds have a tiny white cross at the bottom, so according to my calculations the bees will start working them in about 10 days. Especially if the good weather that has been forecasted holds true. A good crop of lime honey after last year's failure will be very welcome.
The limes down the valley are only 7 km. away, but are about 300m. lower. They are already finishing!!

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## gavin

The limes here look like they were over a couple of weeks ago. But then some of the butterflies are decidedly different too. 

The bees are very carnie-like, dark and slender, more typical than those invading the UK. Saw a bunch on privet just 10 min ago.

Here is western Hungary. I'm on my travels again. 

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## Neils

Well I don't think I'll be needing my extractor this year but all 4 hives now appear to ave laying queens, not that I could find any of them! The brood side of my allotment bees has about three fames of eggs and the queen side continues to build up nicely.

On the nature reserve I messed, lost the swarm and decided to split the hive anyway. The side on mostly new combs is building up nicely. The other which had the bulk of the older combs isn't currently doing quite as well and there continues to be a lot of uncapped old brood in them. Sunken brown cappings aren't what I wanted to see in a colony, but having uncapped 20+ of them to see what was going on I'm confident that they're uncapped chalk brood. I probably should have chucked all but the frame with the queen cell on it in hindsight but all the larvae in at colony currently appear healthy enough. As they expand onto the foundation which Ye are just starting to drawn out I'd like to think I can get the majority of the old comb removed entirely. I'm reasonably satisfied that the chalk brood was being caused by  the colony being damp, since e hive was put onto a higher stand in the spring I've seen no new chalk brood appearing and their temper has improved dramatically, but I don't like that there are combs containing dead/chalk brood still in the hive.  So for both of these ill be getting them onto new foundation as soon as they drawn and have brood in the new wax that's already there.

The brambles are just starting in earnest so it's not totally outside the realms of possibility that I might get a super of honey.

My aim this year though is to get 4 strong colonies into winter.

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## fatshark

Niels ... interesting you associate chalkbrood with damp. I have a colony in a damp woodland corner with a grafted Q from last year. It has chalkbrood. All her half sister queens are in other drier apiaries, none have chalkbrood. Other colonies in the wood don't have chalkbrood. 

Any others have similar experience?

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## Black Comb

I had a lot of chalk brood 2 seasons ago. Around then I moved some hives to a woodland apiary and expected it might be a continuing problem. Since then v little at either site.
Only explanation I can think of is that all the queens have changed since then.
Have always been on OMF's all year around.
The woodland apiary catches the wind and rain straight off the sea, so plenty of water about.

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## Neils

Within the same hive, same queen, much of the chalkbrood disappeared within two months of changing the stand the hive was on.

The nature reserve they're on is at the bottom of a valley so all the local rain drains through here so the ground is frequently very wet. Flooding's never been an issue, but the hive was on a couple of pallets so very close to the ground and the outside of the hive was starting to grow moss!

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## madasafish

Our Association apiary had one hive with very bad chalkbrood.

A shaken swarm onto drawn out foundation : and now fine.

The old foundation melted down.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Our Association apiary had one hive with very bad chalkbrood.
> 
> A shaken swarm onto drawn out foundation : and now fine.
> 
> The old foundation melted down.


Think that is the best solution 
Even just foundation in a clean hive new floor crown board etc
Then feed steadily while they draw out new wax
I have tried the mycostop and not convinced
I have tried just leaving the frames with mummies and changing to a top entrance so they don't walk over the floor --waiting to see effect The bottom entrance blocked and the broodbox sitting on an excluder over the solid floor to let mummies drop through
But the ones brushed onto foundation and fed are now completely clear (old frames burnt)

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## Jon

Fumigating with 80% acetic acid fumes should kill chalkbrood spores without having to burn the combs.

It does seem to be a particularly bad year for chalkbrood. Everyone is commenting on it.

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## drumgerry

Bit of a beekeeping adventure this morning.  Travelled 20 miles to deliver a nuc and when I got there grafted from the recipient's queen (not the one in the nuc).  Frame wrapped in a wet tea towel and back home to my cell raiser.  It'll be interesting to see how many grafts get started but I think the colony (queenright, rearranged per the Harden method) is definitely in the mood to raise some cells.  There were large clusters of bees on all the Jenter cells when I removed the frame from its overnight acclimatisation/clean-up stint before heading off with it to the grafting colony.

Oh and re chalkbrood.  Been noticing a fair few mummies on the floors of most of my hives but the bees seem to clearing it out of the cells sharpish so not a problem for me this year.

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## Rosco

Yesterdays news:  Great day at the Association Apiary.  Good talk on nuc building.  Then some of the hives were opened and demonstrations given, nucs made from a hive that had swarmed, varroa control via drone comb removal (which was later fed to my chickens see pics!) and various other manipulations.  Weather wasn't great though so the bees weren't too happy to see us!
SDC12822.jpgSDC12814.jpg

Todays news:  Fed all my colonies as still encouraging them to build up and to draw out foundation.  Found mould in two contact feeders so cleaned them out with Soda Crystals then refilled with 1:1.  Really don't like the contact feeders.  I struggled to contain the bees that were on the feeder and to get them to go back down.  Too much smoke and a load of annoyed bees later, and I managed to reset the feeders, though.

My other colony has a rapid feeder, much easier to deal with, and I also placed my lovely new clear crownboard on that colony.  I like the thought of being able to watch them for a bit longer each inspection without disturbing them.  We'll see how it pans out.

Next purchase will be more rapid feeders, but after a large delivery of equipment last week I will have to wait a while, or get them delivered to a friend!

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Rosco
sound like a good session
Good luck sneaking the feeders past the missus  :Smile:

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## Dark Bee

> ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  .......................................
> 
> Next purchase will be more rapid feeders, but after a large delivery of equipment last week I will have to wait a while, or get them delivered to a friend!


 Contact feeders are disastrous if used in other than the smallest sizes - syrup flowing out the door  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): , a honey jar with a few holes in the lid usually works well. Rapid feeders are excellent, pour some syrup down the hole to get the bees started. 1:1 syrup goes mouldy very quickly, only feed small quantities, remember you are not helping them stock up for winter! Rather are you simulating a nectar flow, feed in the evening, don't spill any and feeding hot syrup also starts robbing.

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## drumgerry

I use 2 litre contact feeders frequently (homemade using mesh from a splatter guard and a glue called Marine Goop if that means anything to anyone) and I've never had the fabled letdown of syrup as you describe Dark Bee - just shows there's no absolutes in this game!  Rapid feeders are great if you can get the bees to use them which can be a problem in Spring.

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## GRIZZLY

Off to the rape again tomorrow to remove the final twelve  supers full of sealed and semi-sealed honey. I've extracted seventy pounds so far. I've got to cart the six colonies off as well and then do a rapid check for swarm cells and possible  swarm control. The other colonies have had additional supers added and  are sitting on sealed sycamore/hawthorn honey and the beginnings of a good clover flow. Despite the late start , this year is heading towards pay-back time for the past two years expensive outlay on feed etc. Despite being small in size in the spring , all the colonies are now bursting with bees so with a good feed later on they should go into the winter strong with a good chance of wintering well. I'll take off some splits with a view to overwintering some young queens for an early start next year.

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## GRIZZLY

ITS WAR.!.  The bees aren't going to give up their spoils without a fight. They went beserk - my nice gentle bees turned into fiends and went on a stinging and following campaign. We only managed to remove half of the crop before having to retreat in the face of stiff opposition. Armour plated bee suits tomorrow and an extra smoker  with bee brushes at the ready. I'll take a water sprayer with me as well - they will be well and truly subdued before I'm finished. I have heard that there's something in rape pollen that makes them quite peppery - certainly gingered up my little darlings. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Still managed to extract another 60 pounds tho'.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Grizzly 
Sympathy : they often are a bit frisky as the rape ends and the honey gets pinched   :Smile: 
Canadian clearer boards are very good for getting the little devils off the combs.
http://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?ro...roduct_id=1915
I never brush them off these days because they remember you if you become a foe

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## GRIZZLY

Thanks DR ,some of them cleared o.k. the others only cleared the upper super and hid out in the bottom one. I'm off down south next weekend and have to get the crop off before I go- then get the bees back home . The colonies have made up for lost time and got very big.  Never fear we shall overcome.

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## Rosco

Today I spotted a field of OSR in full bloom and chapped the door of the farm to ask if they would allow me to put my bees on there to build up.  Turns out my friendly neighbourhood beefarmer has that site sewn up though, which to be honest I had guessed would be the case.  But, as I said to the farmer, nothing ventured = nothing gained!  At least he was nice and polite about it!

There is not a lot of OSR near me unfortunately.  This is the only field I have seen this year less than 50 miles away!

Edit to add:  There will of course be many more fields of OSR within a 50 mile radius of me, just none that I have spotted yet!  The only other field of OSR I have seen this year was over 60 miles to the West of here.

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## Jimbo

Open a hive at the beginning of the week to check that a queen cell had hatched. It had but also noticed more sealed queen cells. Was about to chop them out when a virgin hatched out from the frame I was holding in my hand. Decided to put the frame with the new hatched virgin into a nuc box. Was uncertain what to do with the original hive so stuck in a test frame with eggs from another colony. Checked yesterday and test frame was OK so there must have been another queen hatched in the hive. Also saw some evidence that she was starting to lay. Result! as I now have the original queen, a new hatched laying queen and a virgin in a nuc box while still continuing to collect honey as the colony is onto its third super.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Rosco
Rape is a mixed blessing really you can get lots of honey
You do best if your colonies build fast early season
The crop ends with a bump most years with bees having to find alternative sources
The swarming season is influenced by both the rapid build up and the sudden disappearance
All the Commercial activity would make selective breeding of your bees very difficult
Sadly to meet the requirements of early strong stocks lots of bees are imported
If you live next to rape like I do, you adjust to get the best crop
Possibly the same could be said in heather areas but there you can have many more opportunities in queen breeding etc.
There may be changes now to the type of pesticide used in future 
On balance I would rather be 50 miles away from the nearest rape  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Well played Jimbo that was a " Don't panic Captain Mainwaring " moment  :Smile: 

been reading Alley's queen rearing book today 
Old but interesting

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## Rosco

Yesterday I attended an all day course by Graeme Sharpe of Scotland's Rural College on Varroa Management.  It was an excellent day and for those who have not been lucky enough to attend a course or talk by Graeme he is an excellent speaker and a font of knowledge, get your local BKA to book him!  The views on all of the methods were very balanced and people were given the information so that they could make their own mind up, which is how I prefer anything in my life, rather than "do it this way".  I now know how I plan to approach varroa management for the next couple of years.  Good price for all day training too.




> All the Commercial activity would make selective breeding of your bees very difficult
> Sadly to meet the requirements of early strong stocks lots of bees are imported


Drone Ranger, thanks for the helpful reply.  To pick up on this section, Graeme mentioned that in his opinion local drones fly faster and harder than imports.  In particular he thought that Mellifera Mellifera were the strongest drones.  So maybe all is not lost!  Food for thought, at least..

Thanks for the balanced thoughts on the OSR too.  I think there is some heather within a couple of miles of me, I might ask the farmer if I can move my bees closer, though.  Although as I type I remembered the 3 mile rule... Perhaps I won't bother!  Hypothetically, when should one move their bees to the heather?  How long should they remain there?  It is a pity you have to destroy the comb to retrieve the honey too, as a beginner I have hardly any drawn comb!

Edited to ask:  Is it true that bees cannot be overwintered on heather honey stores?  I think I read somewhere that it causes dissentry..

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## The Drone Ranger

I'm too lazy and disorganised for moves to the heather Rosco  :Smile: 
The tips are :-
A young queen.
A hive crowded with bees
Use a tool called a comb cutter and unwired foundation ideally
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...=4987#imgdii=_
then the honey goes in a little plastic tray
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...5QE7MNAgmzM%3A

Heather honey is valuable but bees winter on it fine
Some folk will mention the protein content but I don't think that is a problem 
Like any hive where the crop is removed the bees will need feeding before winter

The mating would certainly apply to Italian bees maybe less so Carniolans

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## Dark Bee

> ..................................................  .......Edited to ask:  Is it true that bees cannot be overwintered on heather honey stores?  I think I read somewhere that it causes dissentry..


Rosco, the time honoured reply to that question is; before man came along (or more specifically before sugar became freely available), what did wild colonies live/overwinter on in heather areas?

You may with benefit read "Having Healthy Honey bees" - an integrated approach by John McMullan. Unlike a self appointed expert who unavoidably springs to mind, John is well qualified and an able writer, the book is without parallel and I commend it highly. Northern bee books are stockists.

----------


## Bridget

> Hypothetically, when should one move their bees to the heather?  How long should they remain there?  ..


Around here the commercial boys move their bees up mid  to late July and take them away early October.
Re heather honey - last year was my first, and the bees had spent some time drawing out so I left the same frames on for the heather and extracted all together.  Only about 12lbs but it kept fine till finished in Feb.  this year bees have been a bit slow to get started so will probably do the same but add a frame of heather honey combs in the middle as the heather comes out.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Bridget
I wonder if you brought your own bees back before the start of October for feeding and treating for varroa prior to winter, or just left them with enough heather stores to see them through.
Any tips would be welcome thanks

----------


## GRIZZLY

VICTORY.!. We went up to the rape this afternoon and succeeded in lifting the supers, brushing out the bees that refused to go down-then storing the supers bee tight in the back of the pick-up. We then added the mesh travelling screens and hive straps. We'll be up there again tonight to uplift the hives and stands. I recon the total harvest about 200 pounds. Then over to my other sites to uplift the frames of Sycamore honey before the bees eat it all. They're  working the clover like crazy as  well at the moment.

----------


## Rosco

Thanks for all the replies.  Will bees draw comb when on heather?  As I probably wont have many super frames drawn out before mid-July!  I guess Dark Bee's response might cover this one, i.e. wild bees have probably drawn comb on heather for centuries.  My worry would be that the bees will fill the available laying space with heather honey and then swarm.

Also, bringing them back in October, is that too late to then feed syrup or ambrosia for overwintering?

I am tempted to try to find a heather site, particularly as I may be moving home soon (only half a mile away) so might need to move the bees >3 miles away anyway.  But if I am setting myself up for a fall by doing so with my small colonies I will not take them to heather.

----------


## Bumble

Rosco - If there's heather within a couple of miles they'll find it, but if you could move your bees a mile further away than the 2 miles they'll only have a mile to travel 'back' to it, and will be further than the 3 miles. But at that time of year there won't be much forage apart from heather so they probably won't get too lost. You could always leave one hive on the current site for strays.




> Use a tool called a comb cutter and unwired foundation ideally


I borrowed one of these last year, it got clogged and ended up crushing almost as much comb as it cut. It was easier to cut the whole comb out of the frame, put it on a cake rack over a tray and use a sharp knife. I know some people use dental floss to cut comb honey, using a card template that matches the size of the boxes they've got. They win prizes, so it must work!

edit:
Oh, oops, I took too long writing my reply.

I can only speak from my local experience, and we have quite a long heather season. They will draw comb, if you haven't got thin 'cut comb'  foundation then use starter strips in unwired frames. Standard foundation is a bit too chewy.

Overwintering - mine only get fondant. I don't take honey from the brood box, so they keep what they've stored during the year and there's ivy after the heather.

P.S.
Well done Grizzly!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I don't think I'll do a vertical AS ever again.  Making the split was easy, and I kept is simple (Jimbo's advice from last year), but then the problems started.  I could not inspect the queen at the bottom of this huge tower so did not know what was going on but the worst was splitting the hives.  It resulted in a huge fight between mother and daughter hives.  That was two days ago.  Today I managed to open the mother hive and discovered that she had flown, and probably long ago.  Because I did not have drawn comb at the time of the AS, I added a comb of brood with the mother hive and that was probably my mistake.  That, and not being able to inspect her part of the hive.

The tower was mother hive, QX, super, swarm board, daughter hive, super.  When I inspected the super of the mother hive I found one queen cell in there with a bee trying to get out.  I helped it out and found it was a drone.  Do they sometimes try to turn drones into queen cells by mistake?

Kitta

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## Dark Bee

Kitta, when selecting a queen cell, part of the received wisdom here is to avoid any cells located near drone cells/comb. I always suspected the reason was to avoid what you describe. Sorry about your spot of wretched luck.

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## fatshark

Busy evening ...

Score card
Queens from mini-nucs marked and caged = 6
Old Queens from hives with poor brood pattern, chalkbrood, running on the frames or otherwise undesirable traits squidged on the fence post = 2
Old Queens saved for donation to a good cause (mates with known queenless colonies) = 2
Hives requeened = 6, 4 with caged queens, 1 as a nuc and 1 with a sealed caged queen because I'm not certain they're actually queenless.
Cells added to mini-nucs = 4
Cells to add to mini-nucs tomorrow morning = 4 ... simply ran out of time and was gasping for a beer ;-)

----------


## Jon

We put cells into 16 apideas yesterday evening and left them in a stack.
There was some impressive piping going on when I was over earlier this evening.
I also saw a queen returning to an apidea at about 5.15, probably just an orientation flight but worth checking it in a couple of days.
It is easy to tell which apideas have queens out flying due to the activity and nervousness of the workers at the entrance.
I know now to stop and watch for a minute or two and I often see a queen coming back from a flight.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kitta 
What type of swarm board did you have on ?

----------


## fatshark

Have you noticed how subdued mini-nucs are having had the laying queen removed when you visit them later that day to put in a new cell? At least mine are. It's almost as if they're thinking "Darn it ... now we'll have to start all over again ... I just can't be bothered, can you?".

----------


## Bridget

> Hi Bridget
> I wonder if you brought your own bees back before the start of October for feeding and treating for varroa prior to winter, or just left them with enough heather stores to see them through.
> Any tips would be welcome thanks


Well I live right on the border of heather.  In other words my bees fly a few hundred yards to the heather so I've no need to move them.  However this means I need to use a varroa treatment that is not temperature reliant to treat for varroa as its end Sept at the earliest that I can treat them/ when there is no brood and temperatures have started to fall by then.  I do feed them as well though I leave any stores in the brood box for them to use as well.

----------


## EmsE

Finally got the chance to check the bees after almost 2 weeks. One hive had a queen cell (suspercedure) with the queen beginning to work her way out. I was sure I've heard people on the forum mention 'pulling' a queen so decided to give her a hand. It was great to see the virgin queen emerge- something I didn't think I would ever see.

I will need to check the hives at the other sites, a couple of nucs to see if the new queen is laying yet, including the one I haven't got round to moving from the back garden on Sunday. Next week I'm going up to my sisters on the North coast and hope to get to play with her bees too. One colony has had the same queen for 4 years and hasn't made any queen cells since she hatched. It's a pity the bees wouldn't do well here as I could do with some non-swarmy genetics.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Kitta, when selecting a queen cell, part of the received wisdom here is to avoid any cells located near drone cells/comb. I always suspected the reason was to avoid what you describe. Sorry about your spot of wretched luck.


Thanks DB - I'll remember that.  I wonder whether receiving all that royal jelly might have changed the drone's nature?  Fortunately that was not a cell I either selected or needed.  I saw the new queen.




> Hi Kitta 
> What type of swarm board did you have on ?


I made it, DR.  I think it is a Snelgrove but without the central ventilation bit that some Snelgroves have.  It has doors above and below the board on three sides but in the end I only used one door.

I have these before and after photos of the tower.  The board lies in front of the daughter hive in the second photo.

I just realised that another reason why I found it so impossible to check the queen's box was because I originally had the hive on double brood.  That meant that the daughter's part consisted of two brood boxes and a super.  I thought removing all of those boxes to check on the mother hive might cause too much mayhem in the daughter hive.  Never again if I can help it.

Kitta

IMG_4624.jpg IMG_4657.jpg

----------


## marion.orca

BOTTOMS UP !
Quick question here to see if anyone has an answer/explanation to this as it's really piqued my curiosity. At the hive inspection yesterday, along with a friend, we noticed the Queen with her head buried into one of the cells, which she did on 3 occasions - she didn't lay in them though. Is it a fanciful idea I have that she is checking them to see that they are up to her standards, prior to using them - or is there some other logical reason for this ? Thanks for the input - I find this intriguing.

----------


## Dark Bee

Checking the width - drone/worker or as you say checking they met her own private standards :Smile:  . If you want a job done well do it yourself!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Bridget
Few hundred yards to the heather you lucky devil  :Smile: 
These new MAQs strips might fit in with your beekeeping year ?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I made it, DR.  I think it is a Snelgrove but without the central ventilation bit that some Snelgroves have.  It has doors above and below the board on three sides but in the end I only used one door.
> I just realised that another reason why I found it so impossible to check the queen's box was because I originally had the hive on double brood.  That meant that the daughter's part consisted of two brood boxes and a super.  I thought removing all of those boxes to check on the mother hive might cause too much mayhem in the daughter hive.  Never again if I can help it.
> 
> Kitta


Hi Kitta 
You would need Arnie Swarz to manage that lot  :Smile: 
I can understand why you might never want to do that again
I use Snelgroves a lot and have put come plans on the SBA website for making them

If you have a go next year I would make a few adjustments

First You really do need a good sized communication cut out in the board centre covered with mesh 
Without that they regard themselves as two separate hives hence fighting etc

If you start the process with double brood box take an empty one to help with the sorting out but aim to have one box with all the brood
The second box you want the queen on a small patch of brood empty combs( if they are there some) food pollen etc is ok but plenty laying space and a couple foundation

The Queen's box goes on the floor then the QX 
If you have two drawn supers you can put both on now but one is fine 
The box with all the brood goes directly on the top 

Wait 3 days while the bees sort themselves out

Go back lift off the top box and put in the Snegrove board -open one of the doors in the upper at the side to let bees fly from top box call it No1
On the 7th day since you split the bees go back and close the No1 door open the one below it (No2) the bees used to using it now go down through supers to join bees below the board. 
You have to bleed off the bees or with several queen cells the first virgin might leave with the flyers
The top box needs an exit now so open a door on the other side of the hive call that one No3 
While you are there have a look in the top box there should be queen cells started up there

12 days after you made the split go back and close Door No3 open the one directly underneath it lets call that No4 all flying bees join bottom box
Open the upper door at the rear of the box call that one No5 to let the bees out in the upper box
Now your new queen will be coming out of there and going to mate quite soon so pin something colourful and reasonable size to help her find the entrance

It's very important not to delay beyond Day 14 before you do the last operation and never take the top box down around this time (or you will lose new queen)

Usually 10 days more is enough for your young queen to fly and mate so I take quick peek on day 24 to see if there is any laying if not don't worry just wait a while

Now, down below the queen and her bees have been collecting honey laying etc so pick your time when there is a bit less flying going on from the top.
Take off the top box and the supers 
If they are full pinch them if not rearrange them putting the full ones to the outsides sometimes just take the full ones from two supers and consolidate the rest into one super
Look in the bottom box fingers crossed no queen cells 

Now depends how you want to go here 
You can take away the bottom box as a separate hive. 
You can remove the bottom queen and combine the bees (young queen, strong hive, heather ?)

The main thing to watch is that those bees in the top don't starve as you bleed off the bees 
If that box at the beginning had lots of food combs fine but if it's all brood then you will need to feed them a little 
Don't worry they are not storing anything in the supers but be careful not to trigger robbing by spills 

There are lots of things I haven't mentioned here It's a bit like describing how to cross the road safely it's not hard but there are lots of possibilities


Looking at your tower Kitta I wonder how tall you would need to be to look in that top box  :Smile: 
hope this long post helps (if you can get through it without falling asleep LoL!)

----------


## marion.orca

Thanks DB - I knew there would be a logical explanation to this - I've just never seen it before.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks for the detailed post, DR.  It's very helpful.

I actually had your Snelgrove plan next to me when I made my boards.  The doors are about 100mm but unlike your doors, mine swivel in the middle - so the entrances probably look smaller on the photos than they actually are.  So you think that if I'd had a communication gap, they would have been less likely to fight when I separated the boxes?  Don't you find it a problem to separate the boxes?




> ... On the 7th day since you split the bees  .... While you are there have a look in the top box there should be queen cells started up there ...


I did not use the board in order to induce them to create queen cells, DR.  The queen cells (or cups) were already there, which meant that I wasn't too sure about the timing.  I try to follow Ian Craig's advice to use the first swarm cells and not to cut them down (except if I don't like the queen and that hasn't yet happened).

Having said 'never, ever' - I saw today that there is another hive that are starting swarming preparations.  There are a few loaded cups, slightly elongated, and the queen has stopped laying.  There is not really enough room for a horizontal AS, so I may just change my mind and try once more but this time, I think, I'll separate them well before the new queen hatches and move the hive somewhere else.  I do want to be able to see what happens in the mother hive.  I will also cut a hole in the board like yours.

Kitta

----------


## Neils

Spent today on a microscopy course at Dan's(occasional poster here). Not often you get an opportunity to examine both EFB and AFB up close and personal, plus get to make your own reference slides direct from the combs. Added bonus he let me freeze my ice packs again on what must have been the hottest day if the year so far.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kitta 
Once bees have started swarming preparations (particularly cells) a Snelgrove board is fairly useless
They are only good for preventing swarming before that stage arrives and getting a new queen safely started above the board
Snelgrove himself describes his "method 2" for circumstances where cells are found its not reliable though

The problem is if the bees have prepared for swarming they still act as one hive and as soon as a cell is sealed they will swarm from the top and bottom together
I would go for a normal split with about 3 feet between the boxes if you can
Your doors pivoting in the middle is a better idea, thanks I'll do that on my next lot  :Smile: 
Here's a fun little video on the standard artificial swarm for anybody new to this

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## Jon

This document here is the best I have seen with regard to taking action about queen cells.

----------


## fatshark

Don't do this at home ...
Busy requeening a lot of hives this weekend. One I suspected might have a queen in it but was I short of time (and short of  anywhere else to leave the new queen) so I put the caged, mated Q in a JzBz sealed introduction cage hanging in the middle of the hive. Went back today and found a brood nest mostly full of nectar ... queenless OK? ... so took the cap off the cell so the new queen could get out in due course. Thought I'd better check through the rest of the hive and, two frames from the end, found a frame with a small circle of polished cells, half a dozen of which contained eggs. Damn. Went back and revealed the new Q in her cage and then set about finding the Q in the box ... remember it's approaching thirty centigrade and in full sun (for once). Found her, grabbed her and let her go just as she was about to enter a mailing cage ... Damn. She walked up my arm, across my veil and then flew off. 

So now I have to repeat the entire procedure on Tuesday or Wednesday ... knowing my luck she'll find her way back and prove elusive again.

The only good thing was the cold shower at the end of the morning !

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hot days and bee suits not a great combo
If I had pure AMM I would only need speedos and a hive tool  :Smile:

----------


## fatshark

Not a good image I'm afraid ... !

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> Hi Kitta 
> Once bees have started swarming preparations (particularly cells) a Snelgrove board is fairly useless
>  ...
> The problem is if the bees have prepared for swarming they still act as one hive and as soon as a cell is sealed they will swarm from the top and bottom together ...


Thanks DR - I did not know the bees will swarm from both top and bottom boxes (the mother and the daughter parts) ...  But my board did not have a communication hole in the middle so would they still swarm from both boxes?  Wouldn't that make them feel that they are in two separate hives?

Ian Craig creates a vertical artificial swarm using a board looking like a Snelgrove board but without a communication hole - which is what I tried to do.  Lots of people helped me last year to get my head around all these opening and closing doors (here) but I've only now put it into practice.  Ian Craig leaves the tower united until the new queen is mated and laying - but that is the part that bothers me and I don't think I will repeat.

It's easier to open and close doors in a vertical AS than to carry an entire hive from one side of the mother hive to the other as in a horizontal one but next time I'll remove the top box before the new queen hatches - or just do an AS and not bother trying to fox flying bees.

I'll make an effort to find and read Snelgrove's book, DR.

Kitta

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## drumgerry

> Hot days and bee suits not a great combo
> If I had pure AMM I would only need speedos and a hive tool


Surely a man-kini and a bee brush would be far more fitting attire DR?!

----------


## Dark Bee

> Hot days and bee suits not a great combo
> If I had pure AMM I would only need speedos and a hive tool


There was a demonstration and get together at the GBBG breeding apiary recently. I was there but not at any time did I wear a veil, I never at any time felt in danger and the veil remained in the car all day. I might add that I was not the only person eschewing protection that day.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Thanks DR - I did not know the bees will swarm from both top and bottom boxes (the mother and the daughter parts) ...  But my board did not have a communication hole in the middle so would they still swarm from both boxes?  Wouldn't that make them feel that they are in two separate hives?
> 
> Ian Craig creates a vertical artificial swarm using a board looking like a Snelgrove board but without a communication hole - which is what I tried to do. 
> 
> Kitta


I haven't tried making a vertical split like that Kitta
It would save on equipment and moving the boxes around 
There would be lots of drawbacks though as you point out.
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Se...c-_-ats-_-used
http://biblio.co.uk/search.php?autho...yisbn=&format=

I have collected a few of his books various editions 
The old ones have the nicest paper

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> There was a demonstration and get together at the GBBG breeding apiary recently. I was there but not at any time did I wear a veil, I never at any time felt in danger and the veil remained in the car all day. I might add that I was not the only person eschewing protection that day.


Most of mine are fine like that (but not all )
Sometimes you bungle something
Another time the bees can get nasty very quickly
I think the Mankini would be safer than speedos  :Smile: 
I don't react much to stings these days but as a cautionary tale I was chatting with an old very experienced beekeeper in his 70's
His wife had been stung many many times over 25 or 30 years then out of the blue went into anaphylaxis
The hospital recommended no more bees for her full stop

----------


## fatshark

Beebase lists something like 150 apiaries within 10km of mine ... however much selective breeding I might hope to do there are always a load of rogue drones around and about. Consequently the BBwear Mankini is a non-starter here. For simple operations a smock top and veil is fine ... however, for setting up a Demaree of a large hive with 4 supers including shaking through the brood box to get rid of any early QC's it's "bath time" in the full suit, wellies and Marigolds. Hot as hell? Yes. But also safe and secure.

Also helps me shed a few pounds  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

Tomorrow I'm taking off supers lots of lifting carrying etc all while being boiled alive in a bee jacket.
An early start might help 
It just occurred to me Vlad Dracul couldn't have been a beekeeper
therefore there are no beekeepers who are also vampires 
Venn Diagram OO

----------


## Jon

> Also helps me shed a few pounds


£5 Observation smock, quiet bees and a bicycle works for me.
If you have aggressive bees, repeatedly running away from them likely keeps the BMI within acceptable limits.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I have collected a few of his books various editions 
> The old ones have the nicest paper


Thanks for the links, DR.  I'll get myself a copy.
Kitta

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## Bumble

> I'll make an effort to find and read Snelgrove's book, DR.


Paperback at Waterstones, £7.95 delivered http://www.waterstones.com/waterston...ntion/3386317/

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## madasafish

In this weather, no veil or suit.. I am not sure the neighbours would like a mankini... My visitors on Friday - aspirant beekeeping couple - in summer attire were suitably impressed. No smoke no protective clothing for any of us.. and they saw the queen (red). Bees just sat and looked at them.

For manipulations or bad weather, jacket and veil. And my nasty hive requires a veil and jacket at all times. (3rd Gen carnies) I'll requeen this year.

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## drumgerry

Got some visiting Apideas coming today for a queen cell each.  Quite excited as this is the first time my grafts are getting distributed to the far corners of Strathspey.  Had some fun yesterday getting the cells into roller cages (which I don't usually bother with).  I thought it a better idea to use them than to open up today and get an unpleasant surprise in front of people who mistakenly think I know what I'm doing!  The fun bit was trying to sneak up on a couple of workers to cage along with the cell in case she pops out and needs looked after.  I'm sure you could have put the Benny Hill music to it!

----------


## Jon

I have 38 cells due to emerge tomorrow and they have been heading to various destinations since yesterday.
I always think there will be a load left over from a big batch but they seem to find takers.
I haven't even got all my own apideas charged yet but I did fill another 7 earlier from a mongrel swarm which took up residence in a bait hive in the garden at the start of June.

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## drumgerry

Just back in from loading another 8 Apideas (I have 19 now!).  This last lot (although I planned to buy more anyway) were bought in a hurry from Paynes to take 8 more queens I have hatching this evening/overnight.  I thought better of my plan mentioned in another post of hurrying my first batch of grafted queens through in order to free up my existing mininucs.  I wonder if 19 will be enough for me!  Maybe not!

Coolest thing ever tonight was a virgin queen hatching into my hand whilst I was giving the apideas their queen cells.

----------


## Jon

That's why the rollers are so useful.
I have 22 of my own filled now so only about 6 left empty.
Could do with more though!

I have 5 queens laying out of the first batch of 6 set out and have another 8 or 9 with virgins and 7 with cells.
very late getting started this year but things are well underway now.
We have over 50 apideas set out at the mating site.

----------


## drumgerry

I think I'm now a committed user of hair rollers Jon!  I have seen the light!  If I hadn't roller-ed them yesterday I'd have had hatched virgins wreaking havoc today.

Most of my first batch of grafts have just started laying in the last couple of days.  Like you say - late but things are racing ahead now in this superb weather.  PS - looking like 28C or so in Speyside tomorrow!

----------


## Rosco

Found some dead brood on the inspection tray of one of my hives this evening.  Then immediately got panicked and checked the other two hives wearing the same gloves... Just touched the inspection trays, mind, but still.  They were clear, before I touched them that is.

Is this chalkbrood?  Should I be worried?  There were a few dozen dead brood, this is the first time I have noticed anything untoward.  I will do an inspection on saturday or sunday and assess the situation properly.  Anything I can do to solve whatever is causing it?

Will I have spread it to my other hives?  I will make some washing soda solution and clean the inspection boards tomorrow if it would help?

Any advice gratefully received!

P7113124.jpgP7113125.jpg

Edit:  Just to point out I am not proud of using the same gloves on all three inspection boards.. Momentary lapse as it is the first time I have been confronted with a problem like this!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Looks like chalkbrood Rosco 
It won't spread to your other hives
Wear different gloves the disposable kind for each hive
don't chuck the mummies on the ground beside the hive
stop bees getting access to inspection trays

Feeding sugar syrup can help stop it getting worse
Possibly because the bees fill the empty cells with syrup
Its hard to eliminate 
In bad cases you can brush all the bees into another box with new foundation
Then feed them thin 1:1 syrup till they get some comb drawn out

It often is caused by stress has the hive been split recently or is it empty of stores ?

----------


## Rosco

Thanks for the swift response!  The bees are a swarm I received on 6 June and they have plenty of capped stores (I peered down through the clear crownboard tonight to double check this).  I took the feeder off for the first time about a week ago due to the onset of this nice weather, and there have been loads flying, by far my most active hive.

They are on brood and a half and still have foundation to draw at the moment.

I will assess the situation during my weekend inspection.  Hopefully it isn't as bad as it looks..!

Thanks again, The Drone Ranger.  What a great forum this is!

----------


## Jon

A lot of people are commenting that chalkbrood is worse than usual this year, probably due to the cold wet spring. I would expect the situation to improve with this better weather but chalklbrood has a genetic component and if you have a persistent bad case the only answer is to change the queen.

----------


## drumgerry

And the number of mummies you have there Rosco wouldn't be a cause for concern for me.  I have seen cases where there are frames of brood with just about every other cell with a mummified larva inside.  Horrible to see!  Requeening plus shook swarm the best recourse in those instances.

----------


## Rosco

Thanks, folks.  I will monitor the situation and take action if it becomes necessary.  I do hope that it will sort itself out, as they have taken long enough to draw the comb they are on already!

In other news, I think today is the busiest I have seen that particular hive.  More foragers going in and out than ever, hopefully this weather will help it build up well.  My other hives are busy too.  The brambles in my garden are being well worked by honey bees (not necessarily mine), bumbles, and the odd wasp and hoverfly.  Saw one honey bee gathering pollen from the brambles and the rest look like they are taking nectar.

I have deliberately let such plants as brambles and rosebay willowherb take over areas of my garden, in order to help the bees as much as possible.  Haven't seen any bees on the rosebay willowherb yet this year though.  Perhaps conditions arent right, or they have an easier time working the brambles.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I have deliberately let such plants as brambles and rosebay willowherb take over areas of my garden, in order to help the bees


That's been my excuse as well  :Smile:

----------


## GRIZZLY

> That's been my excuse as well


Hi DR, I use the " wild flower meadow - beneficial to bees " line.
Works a treat

----------


## Jon

Me too.
13 years at this address and have not cut the grass yet.
No way can I use the word lawn.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Today was a tough beekeeping task
Hive No10  the misery maker my worst behaved hive
In an earlier episode I ran the gauntlet and got them split over a Snelgrove
The top box had a queen cell from a much better  hive introduced to replace their own
Queen hatched big nice black and is now laying

Today's tasks
Get into bottom box where the wild maniacs live
Fend off the upper box bees who are not yet daughters of the new queen
Take the supers from between the boxes for this its the full monty smoker, smock, bee trouse

Both boxes moved to new stands to get all flying bees back to home position
Bees brushed off supers stinging begins
The tally is both ankles, both wrists, both thumbs, both palms one ear and top of head
They are not nice at all they brought in the honey and now its requeening time
Was it worth the pain --absolutely not
They were a bit unruly in May now they are mental

----------


## Jon

That is pretty near the worst task in beekeeping.
Every now and then I get suckered into helping someone deal with a colony like that.
The scary thing is that some people end up with bees like that in a city garden
I bet you that is something local which hybridised with Carnica
The viciousness of the AMM * Carnica cross has been well documented.

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## The Drone Ranger

You know Jon I always had it in mind to get them requeened
The upper box was no problem to do over the Snelgrove
But I was being greedy trying to use them for honey and leaving the old queen below
Next time its route1 the earliest possible requeen and take out the bad queen

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## Jon

It is a nightmare when you have a colony like that.
The queen needs to go under the thumb asap.
It is hard to enjoy your beekeeping when you are taking so many stings.

----------


## fatshark

Nice one DR ... you're a brave man using a brush on psycho bees. A surefire to send them completely postal.
I guess from your account you didn't take the opportunity to go through the packed and, er, agitated bottom box to find the source of the problem ... and squash her. I do hope there is no drone brood in that box!

----------


## Hoomin_erra

BLOODY BEES!!!!!!! Who'd have em...........

Opened up my hives yesterday. 

2 massive hives, am gonna have to consider whether to AS, or double up brood boxes. 

The small one i swear is actually smaller. I think it's being robbed blind by the others. Queen present, as is brood and fresh eggs, pollen and honey.Top feeder.

Medium hive, i think is being robbed too, as not much growth, and no queen found. But i found one charged queen cell. IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BLOODY SUPER!!!!!! And no, the queen isn't in the super. This was the only cell in the whole super with an egg.

Think i might combine the med and small hives. Would the paper method work with the weaker on top? And what would i do with the super? Right on top, or in the middle under the paper. And do i remove the QC in the super? First time i have seen this.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Nice one DR ... you're a brave man using a brush on psycho bees. A surefire to send them completely postal.
> I guess from your account you didn't take the opportunity to go through the packed and, er, agitated bottom box to find the source of the problem ... and squash her. I do hope there is no drone brood in that box!


Having a tally of 25 or 30 stings I have settled for having the box she is in on a new stand 
Because the flying bees are back at the original site and there are less bees to hide among I will find her now
Once the replacement queen is in, for a while, all the brood that hatches and lasts for the next 6 weeks will still be mad
They were diving into the smoker committing Hari Cari 
Don't mention the drones at least there were no big blocks like in some hives

----------


## gavin

Think yourself lucky that you have a couple of powerful ones, HE.  Robbing?  Is there any kind of fuss at the entrance?  Bees with a furtive look about them?  Dowsing bees at the entrance with flour can reveal where they're coming from.  Always a fun thing to do.  Reducing the entrance to one bee-way or taking the weak one(s) away might be a cure.  Or it could be that the slow build-up just means there isn't much forage where you are at the moment.  Bell heather looks good in the hills around here, but is it damp enough for a flow?




> Think i might combine the med and small hives. Would the paper method work with the weaker on top? And what would i do with the super? Right on top, or in the middle under the paper. And do i remove the QC in the super? First time i have seen this.


Yes, I'd do paper and the weak one over the super of the other.  Super bees are less likely to fight.  Shuffle the frames down after a week.

I'd bet that the egg in the cell in the super came from a worker.  There are reports though of strange things like eggs presented to queenless colonies on straws giving rise to patches of worker brood and Q cells.

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## The Drone Ranger

It's always hard to know the best way to go
Without seeing them you are best to trust your own judgement but you might consider :-
On the small hive narrow the entrance to a couple of bee spaces stand around and watch for robbers
On the one with the queen cell in the super you haven't spotted the queen but I don't think they would swarm on the strength of that one cell
If after another look for her I still didn't spot her 
I would be inclined to take a frame of eggs and young larva from the strong one and put it in there to see if they make cells
Plenty space on the strong hive is best so a second brood box with big spacers each side on both the bottom and top boxes
That should give you sixteen frames with all the foundation in the top where they will draw it out
There will be better ways I'm sure and you probably have a knowledge of your own bees that can't be second guessed

Typing too slow  :Smile:

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## fatshark

Ah Ha! Brood in supers ... I have a colony with a laying queen in the bottom box and the - often seen - slight arc of unfilled cells in the super immediately above the QE. In this colony there was a 2" patch of drone brood, some capped, some already emerged, on the two central frames. I can't draw any conclusions about the sex of the brood as I use drone brood foundation in the supers. I'm not sure whether it was laying workers (pattern too tight?), eggs being moved or if the queen went through a slim phase and slipped upstairs for a day. Odd.

----------


## Hoomin_erra

> Think yourself lucky that you have a couple of powerful ones, HE.  Robbing?  Is there any kind of fuss at the entrance?  Bees with a furtive look about them?  Dowsing bees at the entrance with flour can reveal where they're coming from.  Always a fun thing to do.  Reducing the entrance to one bee-way or taking the weak one(s) away might be a cure.  Or it could be that the slow build-up just means there isn't much forage where you are at the moment.  Bell heather looks good in the hills around here, but is it damp enough for a flow?
> 
> 
> Yes, I'd do paper and the weak one over the super of the other.  Super bees are less likely to fight.  Shuffle the frames down after a week.
> 
> I'd bet that the egg in the cell in the super came from a worker.  There are reports though of strange things like eggs presented to queenless colonies on straws giving rise to patches of worker brood and Q cells.



Gavin, Loads of forage, Broom, Gorse, Clover, and Bell Heather. A lot of the bees are coming back with a pale yellow almost white pollen. Others are coming back looking like they have just been through a can of yellow spray.Re: robbing, haven't noticed much, all hives have been reduced to a 2 inch opening, but i have seen loads of dead curled up bees in front of the 2 smaller hives. And have seen bumbles in and out of the small hive.

DR, i'll give another look for the missing queen just in case i missed her. Pretty sure i saw eggs, so maybe i'll lose the cell in the super, and hopefully they will make a QC in the brood.  Why the big spacers on the large colony? Reasoning?

Gavin, on the merging, if the smaller colony is about 5 foot from the larger, will that present an issue with the 3 foot, 3 mile rule? Or will the containment during the merge reorient them? Or do i just move both hives 2.5 foot to a new location?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

There have been some reports of egg moving from lots of sources
There is always the possibility of unusual behavior each hive is individual

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR, i'll give another look for the missing queen just in case i missed her. Pretty sure i saw eggs, so maybe i'll lose the cell in the super, and hopefully they will make a QC in the brood.  Why the big spacers on the large colony? Reasoning?


Hi Hoomin_era
sorry I had assumed there was no laying going on in the one with the queen cell 
Even strong hives take a while to draw out foundation
If the foundation is directly over the broodnest they will get on with the job with enthusiasm
They like going up more than sideways so its good to take advantage

If you use big spacers and 16 frames they have a narrower area to focus on presuming the bottom has 11 drawn frames you are only adding 5 frames of foundation right where they like it

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## gavin

Putting the smaller above the medium on its site (once they're in at night) would help reduce bees losing themselves back at the old site but I wouldn't guarantee that it will stop all of it. I don't remember a big problem when I've done this sort of thing, but then it was a few years ago. Merging (in the day) at a position between the two does sound a better option.

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## Black Comb

DR
No need to get ankles stung. Assuming you have a full bee suit, just put the whole suit leg over the top of your wellies and zip tight. 
I have a colony like this at the moment, I wear a thin fleece under my bee suit to stop them stinging through onto my back. Very hot but worth it.
Colonies like this are major motivators to begin queen rearing.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR
> No need to get ankles stung. Assuming you have a full bee suit, just put the whole suit leg over the top of your wellies and zip tight. 
> I have a colony like this at the moment, I wear a thin fleece under my bee suit to stop them stinging through onto my back. Very hot but worth it.
> Colonies like this are major motivators to begin queen rearing.


I'm with you 100% Black Comb 

I just wore my usual boots not wellies that was a bad mistake
Do any beesuits actually stop determined attackers my BB wear and Maisemore Apiary ones don't
Most annoying was being stung in the ears and head should have had a hat under the suit as well  :Smile:

----------


## Hoomin_erra

Well, i figured out what the pale almost white pollen is that the girls were bringing in. 

It's Dock Weed. They are loving it. Pity i hate it and it has overgrown my garden, and it has to go.

----------


## Jon

The balsam is flowering as well and I am seeing bees with the typical white pollen mark on the back.

----------


## biggus

I had a swarm emerge and then return to its parent hive without settling.

Then I found a decent size queen with about 100 followers a few yards from the hive. I thought perhaps she had crashed into the washing on the line.

I borrowed a brood frame from the parent hive and used it to try and lure her and her followers into a box of foundation placed over the top of them, with a gap of course.

It didn't seem to work as when I tried to use this to initiate an AS the bees wouldn't enter. It was hot here, over 80 farenheit. Despite my best efforts to cool the box it might have got too hot in the direct sunshine. Or the different style of landing board might have discouraged the bees from entering.

I despaired and had a look inside the new box and there was no sign of the queen that I thought I had had lured into it. I was poorly equipped and therefore hot and stressed and my improvised bee suit took a long time to put on so she had already moved once in the time that it took to catch her, so maybe she flew away or went home while my back was turned. 

Hoping that I hadn't baked the larvae on the donated frame, I had to open up the parent box, put the frame back in, and returned the parent hive to its original position.

And then I spotted a queen on the grass right in front of the hive!

By the time she crawled up high enough for me to catch her the parent hive had started roaring, having been perfectly content during the four hours or so that I had been chasing that other queen around the garden.

So I am a bit baffled as to what has just happened? Was it a swarm, or was it a supersedure with swarmlike behaviour thrown in - two queens in one swarm that then decided to go home? Or something else?

If the first queen I found on the lawn was the chosen queen, why did so few followers stay with her when she landed on the grass? Although she looked nice and big in the glimpses I got, she had a very small group of followers, maybe a tennis ball's worth at most. 

I didn't study to see if they were trying to ball her to death, but the grass was rough and not very short so she could hide easily, and evidently she succeeded in flying a few yards further away from the parent hive while I was preparing to catch her.

There were eggs in the parent hive, so this could have been a primary swarm, i suppose.

There was only roaring after the second queen turned up on the grass in front of her hive, presumably because she fell of part of the hive while I had it open to reinstate the brood frame.

I am sorry to have lost a queen, as I would have liked to split my colony... but I wish I could tell which queen I had lost. If only I could learn to catch the buggers I could learn to mark them too.

If the colony was still in swarm mode, with plenty of cells waiting to emerge, etc would it have been so upset when the second queen fell on the grass?

Will they try to swarm again tomorrow? With my an old army jacket, jeans and rubber gloves, i could only bear to inspect about 40% of the frames in the heat. Heard no piping though.

----------


## Dark Bee

Have your bees swarmed earlier, perhaps a week or two ago? i.e.Has there been a sudden reduction in the number of bees flying about or in the hive?
Was your hive situated in an exceptionally hot location?

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## The Drone Ranger

Crickey Biggus you have had a time of it  :Smile: 

At least when it comes to catching them and marking I would get these
Queen catcher.JPG queen catcher
markingcage2.jpg marking cage
Queen Marking Pens.JPG marking pen
queenin.jpg have to wait till she turns round  :Smile:

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## Jon

We found a load of laying queens in the apideas at the association apiary tonight. About 15-20.
More in the blog.

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## gavin

Couple of them, more or less .... 



and the Posca pen.  That'll do me!

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## gavin

Well, Biggus, if the first queen you found was large she couldn't be a virgin and would have to be an established queen.  If the second was smaller she could have been a supersedure virgin out on a mating flight - and the supersedure had triggered the swarm?  I suspect this is a puzzle that will never be fully explained ....

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## The Drone Ranger

> That'll do me!


Hey each to his own  :Smile: 
I'll pass on coating the old girl in sweaty finger prints
I used the crown of thorns for years
I can catch them by the wings but I like the gadgets
It's a very gentle marking procedure which can take as long as you like
Do you remember humbrol paint and a matchstick wouldn't want to go back there now  :Smile:

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## Jon

Biggus.
Did your hive have a clipped queen?
When a swarm emerges with a clipped queen it falls in front of the hive.
Are you sure you saw two different queens or could you have seen the same queen twice.
Was the box not full of queen cells?

To be honest I am totally confused as to what you were trying to do.

I don't understand this at all.




> I borrowed a brood frame from the parent hive and used it to try and lure her and her followers into a box of foundation placed over the top of them, with a gap of course.
> 
> It didn't seem to work as when I tried to use this to initiate an AS the bees wouldn't enter.

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## Dark Bee

> Biggus.
> Did your hive have a clipped queen?
> When a swarm emerges with a clipped queen it falls in front of the hive.
> Are you sure you saw two different queens or could you have seen the same queen twice.
> Was the box not full of queen cells?
> 
> To be honest I am totally confused as to what you were trying to do.
> 
> I don't understand this at all.


I assumed that if Q. was not marked she was not clipped either. A curious situation indeed, there are inconsistencies in the account of what allegedly happened, perhaps Biggus would be kind enough to elaborate.

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## Jon

A mark can wear off

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## The Drone Ranger

The queen Biggus tried to lure into a bait hive disappeared
It was some time later when the queen was spotted near the hive entrance
A swarm? had issued previously and returned
I'm guessing a new queen orienting or mating flights
The original queen was not marked or clipped
This means we can't be sure if that queen at the entrance was her or not
Supersedure could fit the bill if the old girl was pushed out
or the new queen was at both locations on the way home to the hive
Even taking a queen out in a cage the bees find her and 100 or so bees gather round so that's not a swarm not even a cast
Till the hive has been inspected for queen cells it's all guess work  :Smile:

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## Dark Bee

> A mark can wear off


Indeed it can or be removed by her minions.  :Cool: 
However if Biggus had done the marking, I think neither of the above would have happened!  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

I went through the hives early this evening; one colony is still trying to swarm and the rest are behaving themselves. Theres a good flow on at the moment and the bees are busy dumping the nectar straight into their brood nests. Any spare cell is getting filled up pretty fast and I m hoping they will start moving it upstairs soon. All of my hives have plenty of room in their supers and it will be another 5 to 6 weeks before they are cleared. Its too soon to tell if its going to be a good season but Im keeping my fingers crossed. Does anyone out there get a good crop from the soft fruits or is everything now grown in Polly tunnels?

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## Trog

We get a good crop from the soft fruit in terms of honey ... but the blackbirds get the best of the berries  :Frown: 

Good to hear things are going well on Orkney.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I went through the hives early this evening; one colony is still trying to swarm and the rest are behaving themselves. There’s a good flow on at the moment and the bees are busy dumping the nectar straight into their brood nests. Any spare cell is getting filled up pretty fast and I ‘m hoping they will start moving it upstairs soon. All of my hives have plenty of room in their supers and it will be another 5 to 6 weeks before they are cleared. It’s too soon to tell if it’s going to be a good season but I’m keeping my fingers crossed. Does anyone out there get a good crop from the soft fruits or is everything now grown in Polly tunnels?


http://www.orkneywine.co.uk/ourwines.htm
all these fruits are in the open Lindsay

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## fatshark

Here in the most southerly of the Scottish Borders we've been having some high temperatures - high 20's by 11am with the temperature tonight at 9pm of over 23 C. Working in a beesuit is not comfortable. Although we've not had rain for days there is a fantastic flow on so supers are in short supply ... or in my case only available because I've scrounged some from a friend. 

Tonight I requeened a hive that swarmed on Sunday/Monday ... the Q was clipped but looked damaged so she was despatched. The swarm was added back to the original hive.  Removing five near full supers to add a new caged queen and reassembling the lot was hard work.  I'll have to do the same thing to release her on Thursday or Friday (it's a very strong hive and the last available Q until the next lot of grafts come out from the mating nucs, so I want her to be safely accepted) when it's predicted to be even hotter. 

The nectar is coming in so fast that few frames are fully sealed - the end of the field beans and the start of rosebay I think. The sound of the colonies working late in the evening is fantastic.

So ... heaven in terms of honey and well-tempered bees (and the best queen mating conditions I've ever seen - consistently hot, light/no winds) ... but very hard work  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Here in the most southerly of the Scottish Borders we've been having some high temperatures - high 20's by 11am with the temperature tonight at 9pm of over 23 C. Working in a beesuit is not comfortable. Although we've not had rain for days there is a fantastic flow on so supers are in short supply ... or in my case only available because I've scrounged some from a friend. 
> 
> Tonight I requeened a hive that swarmed on Sunday/Monday ... the Q was clipped but looked damaged so she was despatched. The swarm was added back to the original hive.  Removing five near full supers to add a new caged queen and reassembling the lot was hard work.  I'll have to do the same thing to release her on Thursday or Friday (it's a very strong hive and the last available Q until the next lot of grafts come out from the mating nucs, so I want her to be safely accepted) when it's predicted to be even hotter. 
> 
> The nectar is coming in so fast that few frames are fully sealed - the end of the field beans and the start of rosebay I think. The sound of the colonies working late in the evening is fantastic.
> 
> So ... heaven in terms of honey and well-tempered bees (and the best queen mating conditions I've ever seen - consistently hot, light/no winds) ... but very hard work


Hope you either have a strong arm or an electric extractor  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

There is no large scale growing of soft fruits in my area D R. Anything the bees come across will be in private gardens. There are a few semi commercial growers with Polly tunnels but thats only on a very small scale. I believe that soft fruit growing is big business in Angus D R and Im wondering if it benefits the beekeepers in your area.

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## Bridget

> The nectar is coming in so fast that few frames are fully sealed -


Ah so that's what happens when there is a good flow one.  I wondered why there was so much unsealed -- is it because they just don't have time to seal it?💡

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## Bridget

Following on to my post above - I have a super almost full apart from an end frame and I was going to add a super but held back as I thought I should wait until most of it was capped ( none of it is).  I'll have another look today and reevaluate in light of the above.



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## Trog

> Here in the most southerly of the Scottish Borders we've been having some high temperatures - high 20's by 11am with the temperature tonight at 9pm of over 23 C. Working in a beesuit is not comfortable. Although we've not had rain for days there is a fantastic flow on so supers are in short supply ... or in my case only available because I've scrounged some from a friend. 
> 
> Tonight I requeened a hive that swarmed on Sunday/Monday ... the Q was clipped but looked damaged so she was despatched. The swarm was added back to the original hive.  Removing five near full supers to add a new caged queen and reassembling the lot was hard work.  I'll have to do the same thing to release her on Thursday or Friday (it's a very strong hive and the last available Q until the next lot of grafts come out from the mating nucs, so I want her to be safely accepted) when it's predicted to be even hotter. 
> 
> The nectar is coming in so fast that few frames are fully sealed - the end of the field beans and the start of rosebay I think. The sound of the colonies working late in the evening is fantastic.
> 
> So ... heaven in terms of honey and well-tempered bees (and the best queen mating conditions I've ever seen - consistently hot, light/no winds) ... but very hard work


You were lucky ... cue well-known sketch ... no voracious midges to cope with  :Smile:

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## chris

> held back as I thought I should wait until most of it was capped ( none of it is).


Normally the bees won't cap a full cell of honey until the humidity level is correct. Are they busy fanning? I'd add another super straight away- get the nectar in while they can!!

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## Bridget

Thanks Chris.  Will do



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## biggus

Thanks Drone Ranger, Gavin et al. Moral support much appreciated.

The queen was indeed never marked... which would have helped in this situation.

I lack the experience to credibly distinguish between the size of a virgin queen and the size of a mature queen thinned down for swarming, and lacking a queen cage (left at my other so-called apiary) I was too timid to attempt to catch the first queen for fear of mishandling her while getting a decent look. I regret that now.

The main reason I think that the queen in front of the hive was not the queen I found a few yards away is that after the swarm returned the hive went quiet and calm again very quickly. i.e was not acting queenless, while all the time there was queen out on the grass a few yards away.

When there was a queen in front of the hive, however, the whole place was in uproar, so I think I might have left her behind off the lid of the hive while I was returning the brood comb that I had used earlier to try and start an AS with the other queen.

The reason for attempting this (my first) artificial swarm, was because seeing that the bees had attempted to swarm and returned, I felt they might not fully have got it out of their system, and since I already thought I had caught the queen (off the lawn), it seemed like a good idea to help them get the job done so we could all move on with their lives, so to speak.

I hope that was a reasonably logical response to the situation, but happy to be put right if my plan was misbegotten.

Update: I don't think there has been a swarm since the one that aborted, but I have been too busy elsewhere to either keep watch or do a frame by frame exam. Foraging enthusiastic though, and I am quite quite excited about the prospect of a decent crop.

I also have a colony of bees in a shed on Ashdown Forest, in my back garden. They have been going gangbusters all year on what is now a double brood. Have just realised that they are into a big flow, probably from the nearby limes which are humming audibly. The top brood box has no young brood in it (some capped of both sexes) and is full wall to wall with ripening honey.

They also have a plethora of queen cells.

I need to decide what to do for a) urgent swarm management  and b) to add storage space for nectar 

Proper beekeepers may be dismayed to know that i chickened out of checking the state of the bottom box today, so I don't know if there is still egg laying activity or if I the colony is in an interregnum.

As a third year beekeeper I am undergoing a backlash against my own earlier tendencies to inspect too much or for the wrong reasons. I might have a look in the bottom box tomorrow after I have worked out a plan or two and perhaps got a spare brood box kitted out for swarm control purposes. In an emergency I can always take down one of my bait hives (old woodwormy WBC boxes with old drony super combs in them).

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## fatshark

> You were lucky ... cue well-known sketch ... no voracious midges to cope with


Do beesuits protect from midges? In the 12 years I lived there they seemed to get through just about all defences ... I regularly had to give up fishing because of the no see 'ums.

----------


## fatshark

> I also have a colony of bees in a shed on Ashdown Forest, in my back garden. They have been going gangbusters all year on what is now a double brood. Have just realised that they are into a big flow, probably from the nearby limes which are humming audibly. The top brood box has no young brood in it (some capped of both sexes) and is full wall to wall with ripening honey.
> 
> They also have a plethora of queen cells.
> 
> I need to decide what to do for a) urgent swarm management  and b) to add storage space for nectar 
> 
> Proper beekeepers may be dismayed to know that i chickened out of checking the state of the bottom box today, so I don't know if there is still egg laying activity or if I the colony is in an interregnum.
> 
> As a third year beekeeper I am undergoing a backlash against my own earlier tendencies to inspect too much or for the wrong reasons. I might have a look in the bottom box tomorrow after I have worked out a plan or two and perhaps got a spare brood box kitted out for swarm control purposes. In an emergency I can always take down one of my bait hives (old woodwormy WBC boxes with old drony super combs in them).


I would suspect the queen has gone, especially if some of the QCs are sealed. You might be able to remove brood frames of stores for later, rearrange the box into a single one containing sealed and unsealed brood and leave a single open, charged QC. Alternatively, if they're queenright you could set up a Demaree ... put the Q on one frame of unsealed brood in the bottom box with foundation, QE then the supers (and if there aren't any, get some on), with the rest of the brood on top. Save the stores for feeding back later. Knock off all the QC's and go back in a few days and check no more have been made. You might need to release drones from the top box as well. That way they keep bringing in the nectar, have more space to lay, move onto fresh comb and everyone is happy.

BTW I would reckon the main difference between a virgin and a skinny mature girl is "skittishness". Bees are again a metaphor for life ...

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## gavin

> Do beesuits protect from midges?


Bee suits themselves probably do but the usual veils don't!  I have first hand experience of this in Wester Ross where the midgies may even be worse than on Mull!  What a good idea, I thought, take a couple of veils then I'll be able to fill both hands whilst cooking the evening meal outside with the family safely zipped up in the tent.  I can confirm that bee veils and midgies are like chocolate teapots and hot tea.  Worse even.  The veil seems to concentrate them *inside*.

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## Trog

> Do beesuits protect from midges? In the 12 years I lived there they seemed to get through just about all defences ... I regularly had to give up fishing because of the no see 'ums.


Give up fishing because of midges???????????? Lightweight! Sometimes they're the only bites I get all day!   :Wink: 

Bee veils definitely don't protect against midges.  Smoke helps, though!

----------


## fatshark

Lightweight ... absolutely. 

Usually from loss of blood.

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## The Drone Ranger

> There is no large scale growing of soft fruits in my area D R. Anything the bees come across will be in private gardens. There are a few semi commercial growers with Polly tunnels but thats only on a very small scale. I believe that soft fruit growing is big business in Angus D R and Im wondering if it benefits the beekeepers in your area.


A friend has bees on a farm where there are lots of raspberries in open fields
The bees are very welcome for their pollinating help and they do very well there as there is lots of other forage
A lot of soft fruit is in poly tunnels now though
Gavin is in the heart of the soft fruit growing area in Perthshire
The farmers round here are potatoes rape wheat rotation unfortunately

----------


## Feckless Drone

There has been quite an increase in black current in Angus, though Gavin tells me this is an early crop so good for early spring build up. 
Also, noted a short article in "The Courier" about bumble bees being imported and bringing in with them parasites. Anyone read the details? Its turning out to be a great year in my garden for bumble bees but I do wonder which of them are imports to help pollination in the poly-tunnels of the Carse.

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## The Drone Ranger

> They also have a plethora of queen cells.
> 
> I need to decide what to do for a) urgent swarm management  and b) to add storage space for nectar


If any of those queen cells is sealed then it's likely a swarm has already left 
Problem is if there are still lots of bees when the first virgin hatches she may leave with half whats left
A possible course of action is look for the queen in the hive
Look for sealed cells 
What you *don't* want are queen cells that will hatch days apart otherwise you can lose a cast (more than one sometimes)
choose two open ones at the same stage of development and remove the rest
If there are sealed and ready to hatch cells they will be brown at the tip and a gentle test will often tear the papery end of the cell 
If a virgin does emerge this way don't touch her remove the other cells and close up the hive till she is mated and laying about about 3 weeks

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## gavin

Yes, blackcurrant flowers about the same time as dandelion.  Some current varieties are later than old varieties which reduces the risk of frost damage.  Come down to Mennies every few Fridays and Rex can tell you all about it!

http://www.blackcurrantfoundation.co.uk/varieties.html

Unlike rasps I don't think that it ever gives a honey crop due to its early flowering, but you never know.

Catch that story about a paper on the diseases in imported bumble bee colonies here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23347867

I've no doubt that this is a real risk, but is there any evidence of sub-optimal bumble bee populations in areas where they are imported?  Has anyone looked at the disease load in wild bumble bee nests, both in areas that import them and areas that don't?  I think that you need that sort of study to provide balance - but I'm very much in favour of reducing imports and bringing in measures to bolster natural populations of bumble bees, including in soft fruit areas.

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## biggus

Thanks Fatshark for the Demaree suggestion. I think I will try that if they are Q+.

Unless advised against, those store combs that are brood free will go into the super for ripening and be replaced by empty foundation in the brood.

Drone Ranger, thanks also. You suggest that I select Q cells for retention that are open... this is because it is easier to judge and match their age compared with two Q cells that are closed, thus avoiding further casts, I think?

I am exploring the benefits of a one box for all things system i.e. no shallow supers, just standard national (poly) boxes for both brood and super. I know weight lifting will be an issue, but I like using cellotex to fill in extra volume and just swap bits of that for new foundation whenever the bees need more space.

This was working well until I got overtaken by the rate at which stores grow once the conditions inside and outside the hive converge.. now I am playing catchup.

I used to be able to sit next to the hive in its shed and admire the view of workers streaming out of the hive through a gap in the overhanging tree canopy while reading or working on my laptop. Now they won't tolerate me within 15 feet if I stay too long  :Frown: 

This has been my best colony, so the new queen will have a lot to live up to.

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## madasafish

> There has been quite an increase in black current in Angus, though Gavin tells me this is an early crop so good for early spring build up. 
> Also, noted a short article in "The Courier" about bumble bees being imported and bringing in with them parasites. Anyone read the details? Its turning out to be a great year in my garden for bumble bees but I do wonder which of them are imports to help pollination in the poly-tunnels of the Carse.


A great year for bumbles here: some 400miles south. And other beekeepers in our Association report the same. 
There is no arable farming  or large scale poly tunnel farming within a 5 mile radius of our house.

Lots and LOTS of tree bumbles - mainly in bird boxes and quite aggressive. A recent French invader. http://www.bwars.com/index.php?q=con...apping-project

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## Hoomin_erra

Just collected my first swarm ever.  GO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Cool: 

Need a bit of info. They were an easy catch, hanging on the bottom of a hanging flower basket about 2 foot of the ground, just just gently brushed them all into a brood box. Will check on them at 6 tonight to check if they have decided to stay.

now, when i move them, does the 3 mile rule apply? Or is it different as they are in swarm mode?  They were collected from a friends house about a mile from us, which is where i keep my bees.

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## chris

If I take a swarm on a tree on my apiary,even assuming it came from one of my hives, I put the hive in place at the apiary and that's it. The bees seem to know they've moved next door.If I catch a swarm in a bait hive, I close it up at nightfall, when everyone is inside, and then first thing in the morning move it to its new site; even if it's only a short distance away. I've never lost a swarm. Maybe a few bees have gone off, but I never count them all. Some people put a bit of QE to cover the entrance to keep the queen in until the bees have settled, but I never do that.

A first swarm is a great sensation.

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## fatshark

Move them as near or far as you want ... the 3 mile rule is suspended for a day or two with swarms.  As Chris suggests, don't move them until they're all back in the box - probably late evening.  Don't feed them for 3 days, give them undrawn foundation, then feed them syrup.  

Well done.

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## The Drone Ranger

Good luck with them Biggus
have a look at what a Snelgrove board does when you get a chance
Next season it might be worth a go  :Smile:

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## Feckless Drone

Inspected a bait hive in the garden last night; I thought a swarm had moved in last Friday and sure enough a cast has taken up residence. Bees more uniform in appearance than mine, and I guess someone in West end of Dundee has been raising carnies. Lovely laying pattern so put in  polynuc and started to feed last night. Despite only small colony I could not spot the Q. Will move them out of town and try to build up. This might make up for the split I made 4 weeks ago from a Q I wanted to raise from, that seems to have failed.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Inspected a bait hive in the garden last night; I thought a swarm had moved in last Friday and sure enough a cast has taken up residence. Bees more uniform in appearance than mine, and I guess someone in West end of Dundee has been raising carnies. Lovely laying pattern so put in  polynuc and started to feed last night. Despite only small colony I could not spot the Q. Will move them out of town and try to build up. This might make up for the split I made 4 weeks ago from a Q I wanted to raise from, that seems to have failed.


FD I thought you were making your splits over a Snelgrove this year ?

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## Feckless Drone

DR - yes, the Snelgrove splits are fine, but I got greedy and kept an extra Q-cell back and set it up in a poly-nuc. Although I say the splits are fine, and they are now they took over 4 weeks from emergence for the Qs to start laying. Is this a theme this year?

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR - yes, the Snelgrove splits are fine, but I got greedy and kept an extra Q-cell back and set it up in a poly-nuc. Although I say the splits are fine, and they are now they took over 4 weeks from emergence for the Qs to start laying. Is this a theme this year?


I think it is (with me anyway)
Good thing about the board is if the queen disappears on a mating flight or is duff
You can just raise some larva with brood bees from below the board to get a second chance
You need to watch for swarming from the bottom after about 4 weeks so its a nuisance if the new queen is slow to lay

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## drumgerry

Received a little box of comb with eggs from Margie in Gairloch today .  Into a queenless broodless apidea they went straightaway. Grafting from them if/when (fingers crossed) they hatch.  They were posted yesterday so not too long in a hot postal van.  But it's an exciting experiment and we'll learn something even if it doesn't work.

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## brothermoo

Christened my red posca pen today! Lovely galtee daughter virgin hatched out of a cell I placed in my nuc that had a dud queen. 

Only thing is there are some carnie drones left in the hive as a legacy of the previous queen. Hopefully she avoids these and has good mating on her flight  :Smile: 
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## Jon

That one could be laying already as I have a load from the same batch started laying.
I have 5 which emerged on 7 July had eggs on the 15th and I just checked 3 on my allotment which emerged on 12 July and they have eggs as well.
They do tend to fly and mate more quickly from Apideas.

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## fatshark

Just back from checking mine, which also all emerged on the 7th ... all laying ;-)  These are destined for banking and then making up nucs for overwintering (slight delay due to a lack of painting of the poly nucs).  This good weather is excellent news for queen rearing.  My third lot of grafts went on today.

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## marion.orca

Quick question - I read on a social networking site, a post from a well known field centre - not far from Inverness [ we all know the one ] that a swarm had been found from their hive, caught and hived. The reason for the swarm was stated as being due to the hot weather. This is not something I have heard of before, so is there any evidence that bees will swarm if it is too hot, or is it just down to the well known reasons - given that some of them are still behind due to the cold spring ?

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## gavin

An experienced local beekeeper was telling me that he'd had a few colonies - on different sites - disappear with the queen.  He thought that it was hot weather-induced absconding.

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## brothermoo

> That one could be laying already as I have a load from the same batch started laying.


Got a call this morning from my dad saying that the queen was out front of nuc and flying around intermittently.  He was worried that there was something wrong. I had to tell him the good news about orientation flights and the mating that will soon take place!

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## Jon

Orientation flights can take place early but the mating flights always seem to take place between 12.30 and about 5.30pm

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## brothermoo

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## Jon

What time was your pic taken?
That looks like the little cluster you get with the queen when she is on her mating flight and has a mating swarm with her.

Sometimes the queen lands short and you find a little cluster like this on a fencepost or stuck in a bush somewhere.
I bet you a fiver there are eggs in there by Wednesday!

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## brothermoo

> What time was your pic taken?
> That looks like the little cluster you get with the queen when she is on her mating flight and has a mating swarm with her.
> 
> Sometimes the queen lands short and you find a little cluster like this on a fencepost or stuck in a bush somewhere.
> I bet you a fiver there are eggs in there by Wednesday!


I was in work and my brother sent me a pic at 1pm of her and a few workers at the entrance, then about half one he sent me that pic with the cluster
I'm hoping there are eggs by wednesday, I'd pay a fiver for them!!

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## Jon

1.30pm and photographic evidence of what you often see after a mating flight.
Odds on for eggs on Wednesday.
I have rescued several little clusters like this and I always see eggs 2 days later.

That's a great picture as most beekeepers will never have seen that.

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## GRIZZLY

Just sitting here twiddling my thumbs at this minute. waiting for my 6 week movement ban to be lifted. Just to rub salt into the wound , Thornes  just sent me my cut-comb containers. Misery -  as I can't take advantage of the best clover bloom for years, Just have to make do with comb honey when I can get my equipment  into my out apiaries.

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## The Drone Ranger

Aha! on another thread I have just been mumbling about cut comb and sections etc
Have you tried any of those section things square or round 
Sorry about your standstill --its lashing rain half the time anyway 
I can't tell you how amazed I am someone can spot 1 dodgy cell in a hive heaving with bees
I have just been fishing a virgin queen out of a queen raiser (hair roller)
Needless to say no smoke 2 stings on finger filling apidea and my guitar lesson at 7.00pm hey ho!

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## Bumble

> I'm hoping there are eggs by wednesday, I'd pay a fiver for them!!


A fiver an egg? I've got some spare - wanna buy some  :Cool:

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## gavin

If it was Uriah Heep songs you were playing would a few fat fingers make any difference?!  :Wink: 

But no, I've never tried sections.  Cut comb a few years ago was enough of an innovation.  Everyone says sections are near impossible and I believe them.

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## The Drone Ranger

Lol! don't know about Heap
Stray's "After the Storm with this weather"
Live at the Marquee.jpg

I don't want to buy anything that just sits around never used 
With all the DIY expertise I bet someone on here has made their own section crate probably out of Correx 
I'm making frames for the Apideas from Jons instructions today

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## Jon

> Everyone says sections are near impossible and I believe them.


You need to time it with a humongous nectar flow and even then they probably only fill out about a dozen of the 21 sections properly.
I have a couple of crates in the shed and I don't even bother trying any more.
Cut comb seems to have replaced sections for those who want a piece of honeycomb.

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## Bridget

Checked out hives - and to think I was so happy this time last week.  First the apidea - I think I have a drone laying queen but I could be over anxious as its only been a week. .  Here is a photoImageUploadedByTapatalk1374871501.975063.jpg
And anotherImageUploadedByTapatalk1374871525.667044.jpg
I welcome comments on this and the next.  
I did an AS on the 1st June.  The colony with the queen cell looks like this
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1374871698.226350.jpg

And the colony with the queen looks like thisImageUploadedByTapatalk1374871739.672199.jpg

That looks to me like laying workers though I have no previous experience.  What does anyone think?
Thanks

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## Jon

The apidea frame looks odd but there is some worker brood.
Maybe give it a week and make sure it has a frame of nicely drawn worker comb for the queen to lay in.
The other two look like laying workers or possibly drone laying queen although the scattered pattern is more like laying workers.

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## Bridget

Edit post above : did AS on 1st July. Not June

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## fatshark

Yep, laying workers in the big frame. Are there multiple eggs in cells? If its a DLQ I'd expect single eggs.


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## drumgerry

I *might* have said that the last photo was a Drone laying queen rather than laying workers as the brood pattern seems central and relatively organised but without seeing it up close difficult to tell.  What are you seeing egg-wise Bridget?   And have you been into this hive since you carried out the artificial swarm?  If so what did you see then?

 A Drone layer will be much easier to deal with than laying workers.

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## Bridget

> Yep, laying workers in the big frame. Are there multiple eggs in cells? If its a DLQ I'd expect single eggs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2


I didn't know about multiple eggs in cells I will look.  The big frames are from two different hives so  laying workers in both then😁

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## Bridget

> I *might* have said that the last photo was a Drone laying queen rather than laying workers as the brood pattern seems central and relatively organised but without seeing it up close difficult to tell.  What are you seeing egg-wise Bridget?   And have you been into this hive since you carried out the artificial swarm?  If so what did you see then?
> 
>  A Drone layer will be much easier to deal with than laying workers.


I was in that hive a week ago and saw eggs and brood. I did not see a queen.  I need to go back and see if there is a queen.  Colony very quiet and well behaved.

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## fatshark

Hi drumgerry
If it's a DLQ in the last one she's not laying a particularly good pattern. Perhaps possible if the intervening cells are full of nectar. 

What do the other frames look like? If there's no real semblance of a central cluster - on and between frames - my money's on laying workers.

Sorry to bring bad news Bridget. And two at once ... 


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## The Drone Ranger

For the Apidea
Have you got other queen cells nearly ready Bridget
If so I would just start again with wax new bees and Q/C
Plenty young bees this time of year

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## drumgerry

Like you say Fatshark.  Not a great brood pattern.  But I have seen the like with DLQs before.  There has been a massive flow on up here so it's quite possible the missing cells are filled with nectar.  Again impossible to say without seeing it.

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## Jon

I agree with Gerry. A DLQ often produces a scattered pattern not as perfect as some of the text books would have you believe.
The multiple eggs would be the clincher as fatshark says.

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## Bridget

Last week the brood box was full of honey, now I would say most of those cells in the photos are empty.  Am I clutching at straws if I think they may have just moved the honey up?  In truth I think I am.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I didn't know about multiple eggs in cells I will look.  The big frames are from two different hives so  laying workers in both then


Well if the split was on 1st July one of the hives had a queen so its unlikely that one would have laying workers
The other half had a Q/C and even if that died now its 20 days or so later its unlikely you have laying workers
So the good news is that you might be ok to replace the queens pronto
If there are several eggs per cell when you check thats bad and not easy to fix laying workers

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## Bridget

There has been as Drumgerry says a massive flow.  I added a brood box to another hive a week ago and 4 frames are full of capped honey! I think that's quite good for the highlands.
Unfotunatly the only spare queen I have is in the apidea and not looking that promising.

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## Jon

The apidea is the best of a bad lot. Sometimes a new queen starts off laying some drone and then settles herself. Are all 3 frames in the apidea like this? If so that is a bad sign. there are photos of laying worker cells on the apidea management thread I started.

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## Bridget

Jon
Two frames are like that and the other is full of stores.  She did get mated and lay v quickly so might give her some time to settle.

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## The Drone Ranger

Are your bees hybrids Bridget or are you trying for AMM
They look nice and black
What you need is a queen in both hives even if they are drone layers because that stops laying workers

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## Jon

Putting in a frame of open brood also delays laying workers.

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## fatshark

Discovered my Ben Harden setup was queenless ... she was definitely there when I arranged the box. They'd definitely not swarmed - the Q was clipped and the box remained packed with bees. Perhaps I'd damaged her during the inspection? I knocked off the QCs and used one of the grafted sealed cells from the cell bar.


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## Jon

Interesting contrast in the weather between N.I. and Scotland today

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## drumgerry

Yep - peeing down here in Speyside.  Hope it's not set in for the week as the forecast seems to suggest.

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## gavin

The heather could do with freshening up shortly before the bees descend on it.  And if it has to be a Sunday when the heavens open, it may as well be the Sunday I have no transport.  In between bee-mobiles at the moment.

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## Bridget

This time last year there were commercial hives on the heather near here.  Spoke to local farmers and they reckon a combination of the long drought and east wind during the winter did for the older/taller heather that was not protected by snow.

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## Bridget

> I agree with Gerry. A DLQ often produces a scattered pattern not as perfect as some of the text books would have you believe.
> The multiple eggs would be the clincher as fatshark says.


So I went back to check both hives yesterday.  Taking in to consideration the query re the scattered pattern I can confirm there were no multiple eggs.  also both hives were full of eggs and larvae all over the place with either polished cells or cells full of honey around them.  So I am thinking the comment regarding brood box full of honey and only random cells free for new eggs may apply.  Both hives very quiet and calm.  Could have tried the gloves off trick.  Could not see the Queens but  there was definite signs of a small amount of larvae in the super of one of the hives.  
So I'm hanging fire for present but how do I deal wit the brood in the super scenario.  Very little activity in that super at present while the brood box builds up after the AS.  could not see the queen in the super so either I'm blind or the QE is damaged or I do indeed have workers laying.



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## fatshark

Interesting experience today with strong winds, thunder, lightning and - at times - heavy rain.  For reasons I'll not bother recounting I had reason to go into three hives in the middle of a thunderstorm.  The only thing that bothered them was the rain ... if I waited for a drier period they were pretty calm.  Certainly not as placid as on a balmy summer day, but in no way threatening or unpleasant to handle.  The most striking sight was the massive return of foragers in the minutes before the heavens opened, with the sky darkening and fork lightning all around.  Amazing.

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## Jon

> The most striking sight was the massive return of foragers in the minutes before the heavens opened, with the sky darkening and fork lightning all around.  Amazing.


I saw the same thing today. Amazing how many foragers must be out there as thousands seemed to return in just a few minutes.
Got stung to buggery taking a queen from an apidea this evening and have a very fat finger.

never a good soundtrack when you hear the rumble of thunder as you work with bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Bridget
you could take the Q/Exc out for the moment till you find her
She must be up there to lay eggs
It's early days for laying workers I hope

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## fatshark

The single eggs strongly suggests a DLQ to me (assuming all the brood are still drones).  Any sign of worker brood on those frames Bridget?  As suggested I suspect the brood pattern is due to cells being filled with nectar.  Were there any polished cells located centrally?  Sometimes these can be just a few dozen cells.  

Larvae in the supers just adds to the confusion.  Sometimes you get a few immediately above the brood nest (if strong usually) and I suspect this is due to eggs being moved.  If they're more widespread I'd be worrying about laying workers.  Or a dwarf queen ...

I usually deal with brood in the supers by scraping it out and letting them rebuild the comb.  I might be tempted to replace the QE with a clearer board for one day, scrape out the brood and then replace the QE and super(s).  Of course, they might not leave the supers if there's brood to look after, in which case shake them all out into brood box instead.

Keep us informed of developments ...

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## fatshark

> I saw the same thing today. Amazing how many foragers must be out there as thousands seemed to return in just a few minutes.
> Got stung to buggery taking a queen from an apidea this evening and have a very fat finger.
> 
> never a good soundtrack when you hear the rumble of thunder as you work with bees.


I was more than a little apprehensive when I started ... inevitably the hives were bursting with bees and were an impressive sight.  After the first one, with thunder all around and no trouble, I started to feel a bit more confident.  I baled out when the rain soaked through the back of my bee suit, but returned to the hive once it had changed to drizzle.

You need some medicine to take the pain away ...

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## Jon

I am already drinking it

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## fatshark

Actually yesterdays news ...

Mini-nucs examined for mated queens = 8
Absconders = 1
Queens marked = 7
Queens sold = 1
Queens banked = 6
QC's recovered from Ben Harden system = 7
QC's that weren't 'cos they'd emerged = 4
Trips home to get vanilla essence = 1
Virgin queens introduced to mini-nucs = 4
Cells introduced into mini-nucs = 3
Teaching apiary evening visits = 1

And it was 32 degrees centigrade here yesterday so ...

Beers consumed in the evening = several

Which meant that ...

Number of mini-nucs (with virgins) left with QE in place = 2 (D'oh!)

Won't be corrected until this evening  :Embarrassment:

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## Jon

The don't take the first orientation flight until day 4 or 5 anyway so no harm done.

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## Bridget

Wow windy here. Just had to rush out and double up the blocks on top of the hives.

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## brothermoo

Moved a swarm from a chimney to the out-apiary this morning.. 

http: took me 2 days to get the remnants up thru porter bee escapes (in handy correx) into the nuc before shifting. 


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## The Drone Ranger

Pretty amazing pics brothermoo 
I am impressed that takes some courage
The advice I got when they went down our much lower chimney was to hang a drawn comb down in the chimney on string 
The idea is the queen wants to get laying so she moves onto the comb and you pull the string up with her on the comb
How did you get the queen in the box ?
the bees will follow where she goes next 
You could have put a satellite dish up there at the same time  :Smile:

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## brothermoo

I took the cowl out and shook the bees into the nuc box, had a wee 'shufty' and saw her on the comb. From then it was fairly straight forward.. well as straight forward as working in a roof in a bee smock can be  :Smile: 

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## Jon

No better man for the job!

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## Trog

> Pretty amazing pics brothermoo 
> I am impressed that takes some courage
> The advice I got when they went down our much lower chimney was to hang a drawn comb down in the chimney on string 
> The idea is the queen wants to get laying so she moves onto the comb and you pull the string up with her on the comb
> How did you get the queen in the box ?
> the bees will follow where she goes next 
> You could have put a satellite dish up there at the same time


Comb on a string?  What a brilliant idea.  I'll file that away for future reference.

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## gavin

Heather flit underway. The Ford Focus Estate - sitting outside - now has .....

- seven Swienties, one of them double brood
- eight Paynes poly nucs, two stacked in the front passenger seat
- seven Apideas

And whenever I can crawl out of my pit in the morning they'll be on their way to Glen Clova.

Thanks for your help, Bill!

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## Beefever

Really?  You can sqeeeeeze all that in your car?  Where do you sit?

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## greengumbo

> Heather flit underway. The Ford Focus Estate - sitting outside - now has .....
> 
> - seven Swienties, one of them double brood
> - eight Paynes poly nucs, two stacked in the front passenger seat
> - seven Apideas
> 
> And whenever I can crawl out of my pit in the morning they'll be on their way to Glen Clova.
> 
> Thanks for your help, Bill!
> ...


I dont think my suzuki alto could fit an apidea in never mind the rest  :Wink:  Good luck with the move.

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## gavin

Fifteen hives and seven Apideas in a Ford Focus Estate after 7 this morning.



Unpacked up the glen this morning.



Stowaway making a break for it!




It was a bit of a squeeze and we couldn't have got another bee in (or beekeeper to help).

Surprisingly - apart from a few bees clinging to the outside of the  ventilation screens of the Apideas, I don't think one bee escaped on the  journey.  Last year I forgot to nail down the mesh panels that sit in  the floor of the Swienties  :Embarrassment: 

Funny that - the pics seem to have disappeared.  And they're back again.

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## Bumble

Do you expect a decent crop this year?

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## gavin

I always expect a decent crop  :Smile: .

However none of these colonies is really strong - just two more or less filling their first brood box.  Past experience says we'll get something of a crop if it is a good year, but nothing if it is average or poor.  I'll be happy if the boxes come home bursting with bees, stuffed with winter stores, and with our 7 virgins mated to something other than Italian imports!

These are the association's bees - usually posted under my pseudonym ESBA Apiarist. Tonight six of my own (in wooden Nationals) will be heading for a more westerly glen.  They're a bit stronger so I'm more optimistic about them.

PS Beefever - I just sat in the drivers seat  :Wink:

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## Trog

My bees are busy moving themselves around!   Swarm and ?mating swarm yesterday, prime swarm today.  For a very good reason, bees have not been checked since 24 July and I suspect even the ones we a/s have been at it again as it's that sort of summer!  Just going out to make some more b/f up to house the latest swarm. So much for taking things easy; the bees have other ideas for me!

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## GRIZZLY

AFB aside, I have had one of my best honey crops for years. The clover is still going full belt so I'm hoping to get a few more supers off the bees away from my home apiary which is still under the stand still order until the end of this month. It would be lovely to be able to pack some bees off to the heather. Still hopefully there's always next year.

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## Ruary

> AFB aside, I have had one of my best honey crops for years..


 I love the throw away comment about AFB.

Ah! the power of positive thinking.

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## gavin

The second phase of the move to the hills - my bees - went very well on Wed night.  This time I didn't lift a box - all the lifting was done by Bill and Helen, thanks!  A fine pair of intelligent, keen, nice, and in one case slightly feisty (or even determined) beekeeping stars of the future.  Six wooden Nationals with one or two empty supers are now sitting behind a wall on a heather moor in Glen Isla and I'm looking forward to filling that box of new style Thorne cut comb boxes in time for the Dundee Flower Show.

Then yesterday I was honoured to spend half the day with a very distinguished guest ....

 :Smile:   fatshark!   :Smile: 

We went to Glen Clova and moved three nucs up to full sized boxes, and got very wet in the process.  Lovely, gentle, calm bees - even the ones thoroughly impregnated by Italian drones.  But their hybrid workers will be young house bees yet .....

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## gavin

Also ... the seven Apideas moved to Glen Clova included five newly stocked (they were let out in the glen), and two that had been sitting for a while with virgins getting older but no eggs.  Yesterday one of them had some fresh eggs (so was probably mated in the import-infested Carse of Gowrie) and the other didn't (so might yet mate with a better class of drone). FS spotted the virgin in the latter, a rather depleted mating nuc from a failed earlier attempt.

There was a lot of drone activity around the mating nucs.  I think that they realised where they may be made welcome.

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## Jon

I wouldn't move an apidea with a virgin in it Gav, unless she was just emerged and had not yet taken an orientation flight.
Let me know if any of these mate as I am curious to see if they reorientate again and successfully mate.

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## gavin

Sure. There is only one that has prob orientated, then been moved but is not yet mated. One seems to have mated before the move, and five new ones from Sunday were locked in to keep them from the attentions of flippin' ligustica drones. 

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## The Drone Ranger

End of the day Gavin its either get the right mating or none because otherwise you will be going backwards
Worth taking a chance 
I have two drone layers from the last batch who were expected to mate in the recent rainy spell (between heatwaves Grrr)
No use to you I'm afraid probably 50% carniolan (butta no speaka Italian yeta) That will come later  :Smile:

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## Jon

Virgins in apideas are back to 14+ days to mate as opposed to 8 days in the July heatwave.
For native bee breeders the theory is that native drones are active for longer in the season than yer foreign imports so there should be good matings late season as there will be more AMM drones in the mix.
No idea if this is true other than I have had some of my queens mate well in September in previous years. Just anecdotal observation rather than hard fact.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Virgins in apideas are back to 14+ days to mate as opposed to 8 days in the July heatwave.
> For native bee breeders the theory is that native drones are active for longer in the season than yer foreign imports so there should be good matings late season as there will be more AMM drones in the mix.
> No idea if this is true other than I have had some of my queens mate well in September in previous years. Just anecdotal observation rather than hard fact.


I think that is fairly true certainly of the Italian bees they won't be fielding drones late in the season they might be there but not flying much
Carniolans will be out in any cold weather same as the natives but most of the pure Carniolans are in the hands of business beekeepers
There might be a case for not trying to get matings at the heather as there are lots of commercial hives up there
If I had a site away from heather that's where I think the best chance for late mating might be
Round my way there are so many admixture bees that it won't make much difference, but for some people it's a possibility
The idea of saturating an area with drones of the right type of is not something I would rely on as they are found up to 60Km from their birthplace
Possibly late in the season they will be less likely to be so far flung

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## gavin

What happens with drones that have found a new home in a different colony - are they kept on?  I could imagine that many drones are left behind in the lowlands when the colonies head for the hills.

As far as I know the bee farmers don't use the glen.  The heather has receded up the hillsides so maybe its not that attractive.  However I do know my two beekeeping neighbours up there and their bees are not so far from the type we're trying to breed.

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## The Drone Ranger

> What happens with drones that have found a new home in a different colony - are they kept on?  I could imagine that many drones are left behind in the lowlands when the colonies head for the hills.
> 
> As far as I know the bee farmers don't use the glen.  The heather has receded up the hillsides so maybe its not that attractive.  However I do know my two beekeeping neighbours up there and their bees are not so far from the type we're trying to breed.


That's good news then Gavin you might be able to get some good matings
Best of luck up there
Next year the Italians will be gone 
It's not economic to feed them enough to overwinter

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## Bridget

No news for two days.  Beekeeper collapse syndrome or web site down?

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## wee willy

Maybe there are some lurkers such as I  :Big Grin: 
WW 


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## gavin

Beekeeper off on holiday syndrome here. Saw a honeybee in Gairloch this afternoon, not far from the Old Inn where the 'Bees and Beer' Wester Ross group meet once a month. Not this week unfortunately. 

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## The Drone Ranger

> No news for two days.  Beekeeper collapse syndrome or web site down?


It is quiet  :Smile: 

Today moved 3 nucs into full boxes
took out a drone laying queen and put in one from the mating nucs using a butler cage 
Elsewhere I have a queen in a cupkit cassette she has laid in the cells will let her out tomorrow
The last attempt was a few days ago 
I let her out as soon as eggs appeared and the bees removed them all and stated filling the cells with honey

Took a hive to my friends Mike and Gail who are newbies this is their first hive
Although the car journey was half an hour and I had driven them over a bumpy field before, they still arrived in good temper
The queen will be a hybrid but she was very light compared to the bees that makes her very easy to find (she is marked red anyway)

On arrival we positioned the hive in a nice spot sheltered by two hedges and in sun most of the day
I was cautious but needn't have been We opened the hive after 20 mins and they saw open and capped brood young larva end eggs
Gail was pleased with herself when she spotted the queen 
She is easy to spot but it was a confidence booster 
We discussed varroa and the plan is Apilife var followed by Winter treatment by trickle (oxalic)

They are both keen and I hope they made it to the Thornes sale but I haven't checked yet
I was able to give them a bee jacket + a hive tool and my retired small smoker which has been superseded 
That meant both of them were able to handle the frames and inspect the bees larva etc

The bees were given a small contact feeder of sugar syrup, Mike and Gail will replenish this another twice as the bees were light on stores and need to re-orient themselves

The benefit of getting bees later is that the swarming season is past and they can concentrate on things like control of varroa winter feeding etc 

Since there was no charge I hope they value their bees and hive -- I'm sure they will 
I will be keeping an eye on them next season but not interfering all the time just when needed or asked

They have a good spot so hopefully they will get some honey next year and be off to a flying start

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## lindsay s

Bit of a mixed picture up here at the moment, yesterday I was removing empty supers off the hives at my main apiary. :Frown:  They were put on to give my colonies extra room when a flow was on but now the bees are showing no intentions of filling them. Ive now consolidated all of my part filled frames and they will be left on for a couple weeks yet and hopefully the bees will finish them off. Meanwhile at the temporary site that Im using for the summer two colonies that I split for nucs have still managed to fill five supers between them.
 The weather has been a lot better than last years but when the forecaster on the local radio says it will be 17⁰c here today which is a little bit above average for the time of year you can see what the Orkney bees have to put up with. I wish we could get a summer like Jons had in Northern Ireland this year.
All of the queens that hatched from our grafting trial are now mated and laying and Im sure some of our members will have another go at queen rearing next year.

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## Jon

Hi lindsay. We had a great July and it was brilliant for queen mating but I don't think I am going to have a brilliant honey harvest.
Others I know locally will be getting much more honey than me this year.

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## beejazz

:Confused:  :Mad:  My beautiful brown stripey queen escaped today as I was attempting to put her into a cage.  Why am I too hesitant and fumble it when picking up queens?  Because she wriggles and I don't want to squash her is the answer!

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## Jon

Use the plastic pipe. I have put dozen and dozens into cages using this and not had one fly off yet.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My beautiful brown stripey queen escaped today as I was attempting to put her into a cage.  Why am I too hesitant and fumble it when picking up queens?  Because she wriggles and I don't want to squash her is the answer!


She won't have gone far sometimes you will find a little group of bees will join her and you might spot them
If you pick them up ,by the wings is best ,even one wing
I use the Pooter pipe thing as well, it is the safest because you can retreat indoors and get the queen in a cage there
Don't worry too much we have all lost queens at some time or another and she might be back in there now  :Smile:

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## beejazz

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement guys, I hope to find her back home when I visit the apairy this evening.  If not and she's gone, well I'll be more careful next time, and I have a queenless nuc to think what to do with!  (Shake the bees off the combs and return them to the hives they came from, then put a sheet of newspaper over the topbars with an empty super on top, then tip the bees in?)

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## fatshark

> Then yesterday I was honoured to spend half the day with a very distinguished guest ....
> 
>   fatshark!  
> 
> We went to Glen Clova and moved three nucs up to full sized boxes, and got very wet in the process.  Lovely, gentle, calm bees - even the ones thoroughly impregnated by Italian drones.  But their hybrid workers will be young house bees yet .....


Au contraire ... It was I who was honoured.

It might have been a bit damp but it was exceptionally bonny. A beautiful spot.

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## fatshark

A quick peek in a few boxes having returned from all points North ...

Mixed fortunes with the mini-nucs. 6/7 that received mature QCs or virgins on the 1st now have poor quality emergency cells which - from their contents - appear to have been sealed about yesterday  :Frown:  All were setup in the same way and have mated 2-3 queens already this season. Those that received cells were checked on the day of emergence to ensure all was OK. All are in the same locations I've had lots of mating success with this season. The one thing obviously different is the parentage of the cells/virgins ... I wonder if they didn't like something about the stock?

Actually, that's not mixed fortunes, it's near abject failure. The 7th had a queen in but she was scampering about like a virgin. Ho hum.

Better news on my converted 3 frame MB poly-Langstroths ... I split a colony four ways and added mated queens to each and all are laying nicely.  I'll post pics of the conversion in due course.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Beejazz

If you want to combine them with a hive just put all the frames in a spare broodbox then sit it over newspaper on a queenright colony
You are in the south though so you could put some young brood into the nuc and they will start queen cells 
There is time to get that new queen mated and laying before the end of the season 
If there is plenty bees and brood in your nuc at the moment it might be worth a go

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## beejazz

Hi DR, luckily the queen found her way home to the apidea, I caged her and put her into the nuc tonight.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR, luckily the queen found her way home to the apidea, I caged her and put her into the nuc tonight.


Hey that's great news your back on track again  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

I was helping Sue our association secretary with her bees today. It was a nice day and the bees were good to handle.  Some of her hives had four supers on so we had lots heavy boxes to separate from the main brood chambers and we were also moving brood frames between two colonies. At one stage we had two hives and seven supers exposed to the rest of the apiary but we just carried on with what we were doing. We should have been paying more attention! The sight and smell of all those full supers lying around was too much for the rest of the apiary and we had started a robbing frenzy which we never noticed until we started putting everything back together. Every hive was at it and on a scale which Id never seen before. Drastic measures were called for so Sue got her garden sprayer out (its only used for watering) and it was only after the robbers had several soakings that things started to calm down. I thought it was a bit too early for robbing on this scale so yet another lesson learned.

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## beejazz

Lindsay, the same thing happened to me, although luckily the bees were trying to rob themselves.  I took two stickies off the hive thinking the bees had finished cleaning them up, then had a quick check in the brood box.  I had intended removing the two cleaned up supers but it was impossible, just too many bees following and I couldn't get them off the combs.  Ended up putting them back on the hive.  Fortunately I only have the one hive on that site, I can just imagine the chaos if i had done that with a number of hives close by.  Next time I will go armed with lots of crownboards, with feeder holes closed off!

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## greengumbo

Good weather this week, apparently !

Had a look in a nuc I made a while back that I requeened with a local AMM and was delighted to see jet black bees all over the combs with only a handful of the original yellower ones remaining. Lovely brood pattern and honey / pollen stored below the brood nest. They are on 6 lang frames in a good poly nuc so will prob just treat for varroa now and then feed september and leave them in there to overwinter. My two grafted AMM queens have hatched and one is looking fat so fingers crossed for brood / eggs next time I check - delighted at that. Home bodged keiler seems to have done the trick so far !

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## Bridget

Today took drastic action on hives with no eggs or larvae and despite several searches no queen found.  According to Mr Ted Hooper you should put a QE between base and brood box, shake out all bees in front of hive, replace cleared frames and low and behold in about 1/2 hr all bees will have returned to the hive and you will find the queen below the QE.  It was carnage - the other hives started robbing a nuc, the other hives were robbing the frames I had taken off, the bees puddled in heaps in the grass and quite a few didn't make it.  After the famous half an hour I went out and smoked them all and encouraged a few in.  Closed up the nuc. 4 hours later checked under the QE and loads of bees, many dead, some looking as thou they had panicked to get through the QE. Still no queen to be seen.  Had another hive in similar quandary but will have to find some other way.  For those shouting test frame of brood .....I know but very little brood in this apiary.  I think we are heading for disaster 🔫

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## Jon

If you cut a square inch of small larvae from any comb and insert it in the hive you want to check that is more than enough for a test frame.
bees are in total robbing mode at the moment so you need to be careful.

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## Bridget

> If you cut a square inch of small larvae from any comb and insert it in the hive you want to check that is more than enough for a test frame.
> bees are in total robbing mode at the moment so you need to be careful.


The only hive with any larvae is (possibly) the one with a newly introduced queen Jon and I really don't want to disturb her.  It might be the only hive left in a couple of weeks.

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## Jon

If she is out and laying you could have a wee bit of comb out in 2 minutes with little or no disturbance.

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## Bridget

I could try. If I take (cut) a small amount out how do i suspend it inthe hive?  gaffer tape to another frame?

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## fatshark

I'd mash the 'recipient' comb down a bit and hold it in place with 3-4 toothpicks broken in half.  The bees will propilise everything up in very short order.  

If you're a dab hand with grafting you can quickly (3 minutes) take a few larvae and put them into cell cups stuck (Araldite/Gorilla glue) onto a pointed sliver of Coke tin ... you can then stick these into the face of the comb in the queenless hive.  There's a post on this trick on Beekeepingforum but I can't find it for the moment.  I've used it.  The sliver of coke tin is like a long thin triangle, perhaps 2cm x 1cm. Stick the jenter-type cell cup at the fat end, graft into it, stick it in the frame.  

Here speaks the voice of experience ... punch a crude hole with a bradawl through the bit you're going to stick the cell cup to.  It provides a bit of 'grip' for the glue to work with.

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## Black Comb

I cut 2" squares out as per Jon and cut a 2" sqaure hole in the upper middle of the receiving comb. It stays in and does the job.

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## Jon

> I could try. If I take (cut) a small amount out how do i suspend it inthe hive?  gaffer tape to another frame?


Cut a hole the same shape in a comb and insert it.

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## gavin

Why not just lay a piece horizontally in the gap at the top bars between some middle frames? There is a method for raising lots of queen cells that uses a frame of eggs/larvae laid horizontally so it should work with a test piece. Top tip from the queue for the ferry at Stornoway.

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## Adam

> Today took drastic action on hives with no eggs or larvae and despite several searches no queen found.  According to Mr Ted Hooper you should put a QE between base and brood box, shake out all bees in front of hive, replace cleared frames and low and behold in about 1/2 hr all bees will have returned to the hive and you will find the queen below the QE.  It was carnage - the other hives started robbing a nuc, the other hives were robbing the frames I had taken off, the bees puddled in heaps in the grass and quite a few didn't make it.  After the famous half an hour I went out and smoked them all and encouraged a few in.  Closed up the nuc. 4 hours later checked under the QE and loads of bees, many dead, some looking as thou they had panicked to get through the QE. Still no queen to be seen.  Had another hive in similar quandary but will have to find some other way.  For those shouting test frame of brood .....I know but very little brood in this apiary.  I think we are heading for disaster 🔫


I've used the method so described and it works. But I HAVEN'T done it at this time of year. I do hate this time of year! Plenty bees but little forage.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Today took drastic action on hives with no eggs or larvae  ... shake out all bees in front of hive, ... It was carnage ...





> I've used the method so described and it works. But I HAVEN'T done it at this time of year. I do hate this time of year! Plenty bees but little forage.


That sounds terrible, Bridget.  Might it have been less harrowing if one had brushed all the bees into an empty broodbox and then added the queen excluder and original brood box on top of that, rather than shaking them all out onto the ground?  Kitta

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## Bridget

Sounds sensible Kitta.  I was trying to do the best and had the whole process for both hives and the introduction of new queens carefully mapped out but abandoned the rest.  Will try again tomorrow but the longer it gets left the smaller the colonies are getting and I worry about getting them through the winter.  
Adam we have lots of heather much of it still to blossom.

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## gavin

Just passing a mile or so from Bridget admiring the heather in the pouring rain .... not driving now obviously.

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## Bridget

> Just passing a mile or so from Bridget admiring the heather in the pouring rain .... not driving now obviously.
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk


Train?  Pity you weren't passing in daylight and bright sunshine - you could have given me the benefit of your knowledge!  Had to put the heating on tonight for the first time for several months.

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## fatshark

Train? 

You must be joking. 

Gavin has a chauffeur.

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## gavin

I did indeed. We swapped roles after the Aviemore pit-stop.

Spotted that posh train, the old fashioned one in dark red, and made note to self: must hire that for our next jolly north.

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## Jimbo

Can recommend the afternoon tea with scones on that train as it steams it's way to Glenboggle

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## gavin

As long as the crockery is posh-label stuff.  :Wink: 

On our Wester Ross - Lewisian expedition the bell heather and ling heather were in profusion, side-by-side.  It seems that the overlap in flowering is greater than in the east.  Must help provide continuous late forage from some time in July until September.

Our B&B host on Lewis near the Callanish Stone Circle (highly recommended, B&B and stones) mentioned a nearby beekeeper.  Can't be easy keeping bees thriving in that sort of terrain.  Stornoway itself is a different matter - one street could have been suburbia anywhere given the healthy growth of trees and other garden plants.

OK, its a warm humid day in Tayside and the bees in the hills are overdue a visit ....

G.

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## biggus

Saw a worker bee beating up a drone on the front of one my hives on this bright, warm afternoon in southern England with plenty of balsam coming in. 

Is it really that time already? I wonder if day length determines the time for drone evictions, rather than food scarcity or temperature, for example.

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## Bridget

Bee inspector came today - and didn't have much to say really except I could try to unite two hives or maybe all three of them before its gets too autumnal. So he found no queens, no queen in the apidea, no brood, no eggs, no larvae and he reckons I did have drone laying laying queens after all. ( We didn't inspect the new queen added 2 days ago just checked she was out of her cage)  So much as I thought all along really. The nuc has been dumped after the robbing so it look likes I will may be back to square zero in no time at all. I will certainly be supporting Drumgerry in his queen rearing programme next spring.

Only one good thing - doesn't look like I have varroa (as he picked over the corpses in the dumped nuc) so excellent news for a beeless apiary then. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## GRIZZLY

Our bee inspector called today for a look at my bees. Hooray !! He has declared them to be free of disease so normal beekeeping can resume. I've just got to wait for the official release of the apiary from the stand-still order.The bees  looked to be in very good shape with all colonies being queen right . Bursting with bees and all with significant brood nests.Still more flower honey to remove from some of them. Lots of honey stored in the brood boxes which should reduce my winter feed bill. Honey flow is now pretty well over causing some of the bees to become tetchy and defensive, 
Our association is moving forward at last, we have secured an ass'n apiary site where we can do some neuc rearing next year plus arrange for our beginner members to get some hands on experience. Need to get our hands on some black bees so we can do a bit of queen rearing  etc.

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## gavin

> Need to get our hands on some black bees so we can do a bit of queen rearing  etc.


Well, the Amm swap-shop via SBAi started this year, so come May 2014 I hope that we can do more.

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## gavin

> So he found no queens, no queen in the apidea, no brood, no eggs, no larvae and he reckons I did have drone laying laying queens after all. ( We didn't inspect the new queen added 2 days ago just checked she was out of her cage)


Chin up Bridget!  Was that new queen a mated, laying one?  If that one is no good we'll need to have a whip-round of some kind.

G.

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## Blackcavebees

> Well, the Amm swap-shop via SBAi started this year, so come May 2014 I hope that we can do more.


Sounds good, maybe we can revisit the plantation of Ulster

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## greengumbo

Took my first honey crop ever last night  :Smile: 

I was consolidating a 2 brood lang into a single brood box and have had the QE in for about a month. Reckon I got 8 deep langs at least half capped with no nectar dripping out the rest when I shook it. Just need to try find an extractor now !

On another note I have noticed all the hives other than this monster are short on stores (no its not been robbing the others.....I think!). I think the sunny weather has tricked me into thinking there must be plenty forage about. So I have stuck some feed on. How much do you lot feed this time of year ? Am I right in thinking its not quite time to fill the hive with food for winter ?

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## gavin

Always a good feeling, especially that first crop!

I met a beekeeper in Inverurie who did his winter feeding just after he took his crop off in July.  Even then, in my inexperienced years, I didn't think it right.  You still need winter bees raised at this time of year so if the brood nests are small, feed to stimulate them.  Jon's warnings about the risk of robbing and wasps apply, so do it in the quiet of an evening and keep entrances small.

Don't rule out robbing giving you the big difference between hives - it can be happening quietly.

September and into October is the usual time for winter feeding, so if they've been raising a decent amount of brood you could do it now.  Sometimes winter feed (light or heavy) is converted into bees, generally a good thing except that you will need to feed more.

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## Jon

If you have a couple of frames well filled with stores in the brood box that is all you need as it would see them through a week or two of poor weather.
The problem is when people feed and fill 8 or 9 brood frames with stores leaving the queen with a very restricted laying space.
At this time of year that would be a disaster, but feeding three or four kilos of syrup or fondant would do no harm.

I remember seeing a presentation by Peter Edwards and he feeds a block of fondant split longways, sitting inside an eke, in October.

Some good advice on his website

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## Bridget

> Chin up Bridget!  Was that new queen a mated, laying one?  If that one is no good we'll need to have a whip-round of some kind.
> 
> G.


The new Queen was mated and I checked her yesterday to see if she had been accepted by the colony and all well. She is one of Drone Rangers ladies.  Still thought it a little early to look for eggs and larvae as she was only introduced on Wednesday last week.  
I have another small colony into which I have put a test frame which has resulted in nothing.  Saw only a very few larvae and a very few - in 10's not 100's - emerging brood.  If there is a lurking queen in there (she was marked but not seen since 7th July) I need her out so I can combine with Droney's queen.  I don't want to do that shake out I did with the other hive last week but I might have a go and do something less dramatic very soon - like tomorrow.
BTW they found AFB in Struy Inverness-shire.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I have another small colony into which I have put a test frame which has resulted in nothing.  Saw only a very few larvae and a very few - in 10's not 100's - emerging brood.  ...


So there is a queen (unless a hive can be perverse and ignore an offer of rescue).  Could the marked queen have been superseded without you noticing? My instinct is to let them be.  Maybe give them a little bit of syrup and see if that gets the queen laying again.  

Kitta

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## fatshark

Re. feeding ... we've had a fortnight or so with no forage and brood boxes are all a bit light. Almost all my queens stopped laying as well.  They've now restarted with enthusiasm (and the balsam is coming in) and so I can consider adding Apiguard (which will stop them again, probably).  I do what Peter Edwards does, but a little earlier ... a single 12.5 kg block of fondant on top of the QE in a poly (preferably) super. They've usually used it all by late October. It's by far the easiest way to feed them up for the winter, no litres of Ambrosia/syrup to make up/buy/spill, no special feeders. Simples. I've not noticed any less vigour in colonies kept this way and have good overwintering results. There is also much less robbing in my opinion.

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## Bridget

> So there is a queen (unless a hive can be perverse and ignore an offer of rescue).  Could the marked queen have been superseded without you noticing? My instinct is to let them be.  Maybe give them a little bit of syrup and see if that gets the queen laying again.  
> 
> Kitta


There may well be a queen and a superceded one at that but despite about 8 inspections to find her over 2 months, with friends, family and with the bee inspector, she has not been found. She lays sporadically in ones and twos.  The brood box is crammed with stores, so much so I replaced some with a drawn fame to give her room to lay so I don't think feeding syrup will help.  My gut tells me she has had her chance, I've been very patient and I shall try your version of a shake out Kitta and then combine with the new queen. 


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## Mellifera Crofter

Quite a few of my queens have almost stopped laying, Bridget.  The idea of the syrup (and only a little bit like a tiny jar-full) is to give them the idea that there is a flow on.  The stored honey does not do that.  So I've been told, and it seems to work at times.  Give her one more chance.

As for finding a queen, I've had a 2011 queen that I only found and marked this year - and I know it is the same 2011 queen because there hadn't been a break in the laying at any stage.
Kitta

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## Jon

> I know it is the same 2011 queen because there hadn't been a break in the laying at any stage.


There should be no break in laying with a supersedure situation either so the queen could be younger.
I have a 2010 queen which was superseded and I found both queens laying at the same time.
I still have the old one which I rescued to a nuc and they have superseded her again and there is a virgin queen in the nuc with her at the moment.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> There should be no break in laying with a supersedure situation either so the queen could be younger.


Oh, yes, of course ...  And I might have overlooked a queen cell despite having been very careful.  Oh well - she's marked white now so if it happens again I'll know.
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kitta
Some of my queens can be tricky to find 
I struggle if they are identical in colour to the bees.
Some seem a bit nippier than others and scuttle off before you can spot them
Sometimes you spot them and just take your eyes off them for a second only to find they have disappeared 
I know you are thinking "should have gone to Spec savers" and that is part of it I suppose  :Smile: 
Do you find their wings look a bit worn when they are a few years old ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Hi Kitta
> ... Do you find their wings look a bit worn when they are a few years old ?


I'll have a look - maybe that will tell me if my 'old' queen is, or is not, old.
Kitta

----------


## gavin

Cool wind out there, bees beating me back from taking off a heather super yesterday (the other colonies were kinder), thinking of bringing them home  ..... the Dundee show to prepare for this weekend .... seems like autumn?!

----------


## GRIZZLY

Much honey Gavin?. My bees got the all clear last monday and made up for the delay by finding me 65 pounds of very light honey - I recon its Willow herb - good for our ass'ns own honeyshow.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Cool wind out there, bees beating me back from taking off a heather super yesterday (the other colonies were kinder), thinking of bringing them home  ..... the Dundee show to prepare for this weekend .... seems like autumn?!


Weather is supposed to improve during the week

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## Bridget

Heather here very poor.  Certainly not the good bloom we got last year.ImageUploadedByTapatalk1378073468.355532.jpg
I need to go out and take a photo of this years now.  


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## gavin

John, I probably have around 60lbs of heather and have had about 30lbs of lime-clover mix, much of both types as cut comb.  Also raised 6 queen-right nucs (sold, donated, started a new apiary), restocked one of my empties, lost some swarms  :Frown:  and had many more splits fail in the early summer cool weather (had around 8 splits that eventually failed so were fused with queen-right ones to generate full colonies for the heather).  Not so bad, but if I'd kept my colonies strong I would have had an excellent honey yield.

Bridget, the heather here was promising early on, and those on bell heather have harvested a reasonable amount.  The early part of the ling heather season was good, but the later part of the season hasn't yielded anything.  When I was up yesterday I was surprised to see so much of it browned.  It looks like it was hit by frost.  It isn't quite over yet here, there are still flower buds waiting to open.

G.

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## Bumble

> Heather here very poor.


Same down here. Some blooms seem to be dying rather than opening.

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## The Drone Ranger

You have had a petty good season then Gavin  :Smile:

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## Bridget

> Same down here. Some blooms seem to be dying rather than opening.


All I can say is that the cowberries are great and great jelly made, but that's no help to the bees.  Agree that heather blooms are dying rather than opening.  


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## Bridget

Interesting to see that my bees have at last found the garden flowers now that the poor heather season is pretty much over. I planted mainly flowers/shrubs for bees this summer and although the large amount of bumbles have been all over them the honey bees have largely ignored them till now.  I'm not displeased by that as it means that they are finding other plants/trees elsewhere and one of my initial concerns was whether they would find enough in this area. Next year I shall know to plant lots of late flowering plants.
NB I still have bees!  I'm leaving them completely alone at present with their two new queens and won't touch them till I really need to.  One had a new queen on the 7th August and peaking through the plastic topboard this morning reckoned there were a few young looking bees on the super so fingers crossed.

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## The Drone Ranger

> young looking bees on the super


wearing nappies ??

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## fatshark

Filthy day here so ignored the bees and stocked up on fondant ... at less than £11 a box  :Smile:

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## brecks

> Filthy day here so ignored the bees and stocked up on fondant ... at less than £11 a box


Where did you get your fondant please?  Is that a 12.5kg box at £11:00?

brecks.

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## fatshark

BFP Wholesale in Tamworth ... they have a depot in Livingstone as well as a few other places. I suspect price is quantity-dependent ...
And for readers interested in feeding fondant have a look at this useful page by Peter Edwards of Stratford beekeepers. _Feed and forget_ ... couldn't be simpler  :Smile:

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## chris

This afternoon, for the first time ever, I harvested some honey without using an extractor. Crush and drip. The finest honey I've ever tasted. Pancakes tonight. :Big Grin:

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## gavin

The Dundee Flower and Food Festival (on again tomorrow folks! ... see the ESBA and the SBA exhibits .... ) prompted me to get going with extracting this week.  Heather honey, fresh from the hills, crushed and pressed, straight into jars ..... what a fantastic aroma in the kitchen (still a bit sticky here and there), and what a fantastic taste.  For me heather honey has to be top of the list, but Chris' lime honey (assuming that it is like the lime honey I sometimes get here) must be a creditable second.  Yumzie ..... (where's that lip-licking smiley?).

One great thing about the Dundee show is meeting a whole string of people keen to get their names down to be 2014's beginners.

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## fatshark

Pretty much the end of the season today ... fondant on all the colonies, second Apiguard treatment on, all on single brood or brood and a half. Shipped back a car full of cleaned supers, spare broods and clearer boards. My records show the first inspection was on the 20th of April and the last one on the 5th of September ...  a busy 19 weeks.

The only thing remaining is four three-frame nucs primed with QC's from my last grafting on the 28th August. These probably won't get mated, though there are still a reasonable number of drones and good weather is predicted for the end of the week ... nothing ventured, nothing gained.  If nothing has happened in a fortnight they'll be united with one of the weaker colonies.

High points have been honey yield (too much of a good thing!), placid colonies headed by my own queens, honey marmalade, getting mated queens in the first half of the season (100%) and feeling I was almost in control some of the time (!). Low points have been terrible mating success in the second half of the season (<20%), chalkbrood, rather bland field bean honey, running out of equipment and - now - running out of space to store the stuff brought back from the apiaries.

Time now to think about some talks for the winter ...

----------


## Jon

Hi fatshark.
Queens are still flying and mating.
I have had about 15 mate in the last 10 days or so.
I have 7 apideas left with virgins so might get a couple more mated as well.
Most of my colonies still have plenty of drones.
All that is needed is a couple of warm bright days.

I haven't started feeding yet but will start within the next week.

----------


## fatshark

Hi Jon
My last round in mini-nucs was a complete flop ...  a combination of wasp Armageddon, no nectar and a distinct drop in temperature.  As a consequence I have no mini-nucs to overwinter this year - none are strong enough. This is a pity as I'd got plans to use my greenhouse again, which worked well last year. As an aside, the 28-35 days (or whatever the figure is) which you cited earlier this year for moving queens to hives has worked well in terms of acceptance - I've only lost one on introduction (in my own hives or those I've sold queens to), largely through my own stupidity. However, cycling them that fast prevents very strong build-up of the mini-nucs, meaning none of mine got to be double height during the season. I had intended to unite some for the season end, but the wasps are awful still and I reckon a three frame overstuffed nuc will give me a better chance if the weather is good enough for mating.
Fingers crossed ...

----------


## greengumbo

Droneageddon here. Poor things. First time i've watched drones getting flung out and man-handled trying to get back inside. Must have been about thirty dead on the ground outside the hives.

The bees were amazingly busy today with the sun on the hives all day. Lots of pale yellow pollen coming in. I am going to start my winter feeding probably this week as to not block up the brood nests to early as they are still raising heaps of brood.

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## Jon

Rhodes and Denney is that research about 28 days plus.
I have also introduced loads of queens this season and only lost one which I found dead in the cage for some reason.
there are a lot of wasps about but touch wood they have left my apideas alone. Avoiding syrup is a good plan. I have been taking apideas home this past couple of weeks and have about 18 at the bottom of the garden. I need a few of these for requeening nucs for beginners and others are already spoken for but I still hope to have 8 or so to try and overwinter.

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## fatshark

> Droneageddon here. Poor things. First time i've watched drones getting flung out and man-handled trying to get back inside. Must have been about thirty dead on the ground ...


Ha! Droneaggedon ... your description takes me back to my days as a student  :Wink:

----------


## GRIZZLY

Pal of mine reports that his bees throw out his drones onto a heap on the floor where they are mopped up by a visiting hedgehog overnight. Same hedgehog also hoovers up any wax bits left lying on the ground. Swallows are taking some of my bees from the himalayan balsom as they forage. I don't think I'm losing a significant number tho'.

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## fatshark

The sun is out, it's warm and the forecast is utter pants. I've got my fingers crossed that my queens get out and mate this afternoon ... this might be their last chance. 


--
fatshark

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## wee willy

Wet and windy here so took myself off to Aldi's and picked up a 7 litre Hot Water Urn stainless steel, water gauge , concealed element.3years guarantee . Looks good . Handy addition to honey house  :Smile: 
Under £30 ! 
WW 


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## mbc

I've just bought an ashvac from aldi's which hopefully will save the hoover when I sweep the chimney, its that time of year, time to light the rayburn.

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## wee willy

Bought one last week, I use it to pick up sawdust from saw, sanding and various wood working tools which normally requires the vacuum cleaner filter and dust container emptying/ cleaning regularly !
Most modern kit has outlets for use with dust extraction equipment, this fits the bill, cheaply!
WW 



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## Trog

Just checked the apiary - nothing roofless but I bet the girls are feeling the cold.  Really wintumnal today.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Bought one last week, I use it to pick up sawdust from saw, sanding and various wood working tools which normally requires the vacuum cleaner filter and dust container emptying/ cleaning regularly !
> Most modern kit has outlets for use with dust extraction equipment, this fits the bill, cheaply!
> WW 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


would it be any good on blood there's always some about when I start up the woodworking gear

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## mbc

> would it be any good on blood there's always some about when I start up the woodworking gear


Isnt that what overalls are for ?

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## gavin

Haven't been to Aldi for a while (more of a Lidl man) but it was Poundstretcher I was in this weekend for their 75p/kg Tate and Lyle. I'll be back within days for another trolley load. 

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## Adam

Booker has been doing 2 x 25 kg bags for £35.
With little forage near my apiaries, it's going down pretty quickly.

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## Jimbo

Farmfoods 2x1kg sugar for £1.50

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## Neils

Know I've been a bit quiet for a while, here's why.

I think we've bought a house!

Still a little short of having either exchanged bits of paper, gone white faced at the sheer amount of debt that we've taken on or, actually, moved anything from where we are to where we want to be, but I think it's happening.

Gavin's had the details inflicted on him, but the long and short of it, from a beekeeping point of view, is the acre or so of land that the house comes with.

I have two apiaries in mind. One for queen raising, the other for general honey production.

----------


## prakel

Excellent news Neils, still local to Bristol?

----------


## Jon

Congrats Neil. Sounds like it could be a 12 colony and 100 Apidea garden.

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## gavin

I think that he could stick 12 houses on the plot, never mind beehives.  Good on ya lad, nice to see you taking the plunge.

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## Neils

> Excellent news Neils, still local to Bristol?


I think technically I'll be slightly more south of Aberdeen but still very close to Bristol  :Big Grin: 




> Congrats Neil. Sounds like it could be a 12 colony and 100 Apidea garden.


that's not the half of it. I think we need to talk again.




> I think that he could stick 12 houses on the plot, never mind beehives.  Good on ya lad, nice to see you taking the plunge.


I'm buying the bloody field so some other twonk cant build houses on it.  :Big Grin:  and if only it was big enough to put 12 houses on it.
I do need to talk to Gerry though as the Mrs is starting to go Alpaca crazy despite my insisntence that beehives and a couple of harris hawks will more than take up the space.

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## The Drone Ranger

Chickens ?sony 002.jpg

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## fatshark

DR, do you know what Harris hawks eat?


--
fatshark

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR, do you know what Harris hawks eat?
> 
> 
> --
> fatshark


Good grief , it's eggs isn't it , how did I miss that  :Smile:

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## prakel

For those who use them, Paynes have an end of season sale on their poly nationals and nuc boxes at present.

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## The Drone Ranger

> For those who use them, Paynes have an end of season sale on their poly nationals and nuc boxes at present.


thanks for the tip  :Smile: 
I usually miss out on the sales

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## gavin

> For those who use them, Paynes have an end of season sale on their poly nationals and nuc boxes at present.


  Surely you mean P**n*s?!  There are only two items listed on the 'Sale' page but the poly boxes are reduced on their usual page - eg poly nucs (National) to £25 or £30 with the eke from £29.50/£39.50.  I'd be up for sharing an order if anyone local wants any.  http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/nuc-mating-hives/

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## gavin

> thanks for the tip 
> I usually miss out on the sales


That'll be your normal winter shutdown/long holiday in the Bahamas to blame then?!

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## prakel

> Surely you mean P**n*s?!


IF you say so  :Smile:  But it'll still be OK to write Dadant, Swienty and Mann Lake I assume or will you be installing a more efficient filter?

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## gavin

> IF you say so  But it'll still be OK to write Dadant, Swienty and Mann Lake I assume or will you be installing a more efficient filter?


I ... I ..... no!  Bee nice to other fora (except perhaps Biobees) (oh, and maybe the folk that brought down the last BBKA forum), that's my motto.

G.

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## greengumbo

First hard frost of the year this morning. Some ice on top of one hive where water had gathered but had a peek at the feeders and they were busy gulping it down with a few making forays outside. They seem to have found something in flower as plenty pollen coming back....greeny yellow ? When it was 23'C on saturday they were going gangbusters. Heaps of orientation flights and shooting off across the fields toward something.

Still 5 frames brood on the biggest hive but plenty stores as well.

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## prakel

> I ... I ..... no!  Bee nice to other fora (except perhaps Biobees) (oh, and maybe the folk that brought down the last BBKA forum), that's my motto.
> 
> G.


I'm (edit: almost) always nice, just very (easily) misunderstood... I've even started using smiley faces on occasion to try and reduce the amount of stress that my posts cause certain people!!

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## Jon

> Surely you mean P**n*s?!  There are only two items listed on the 'Sale' page but the poly boxes are reduced on their usual page - eg poly nucs (National) to £25 or £30 with the eke from £29.50/£39.50.  I'd be up for sharing an order if anyone local wants any.  http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/nuc-mating-hives/


The poly box and eke cost £20.50 if you buy 30 or more

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## prakel

Apologies for low quality photos, I didn't have a decent camera with me today.

A few photos of an old queen (who'd been held in a mating nuc for most of the summer for grafting from): 

herded from hive; briefly 'rescued' by me just to make sure that she was who I assumed her to be, and a couple of supercedure cells.IMG0281A.jpg IMG0284A.jpg IMG0282A.jpg IMG0289A.jpg IMG0287A.jpg

The old queen was missing one and a half legs.

Colony now united to another.

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## prakel

Or, maybe, she just jumped ship. Will never know for sure. When the clump of bees first caught my eye they seemed quite placid towards her but this soon changed.

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## Jon

Interesting pics. You were fortunate to come across that.
I think that supersedure happens like that much more often then the 'perfect' supersedure where you get old and new laying together for a while. I actually saw two queens laying together for the first time this summer.
In my experience the old queen has often disappeared before the new one has even emerged from her cell.

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## prakel

> You were fortunate to come across that.


Definitely, was only by chance that I went to that site today to drop some kit off. I reckon that you're right about it possibly being a very common way for old queens to end up, just wish I'd got there that little bit earlier to have been able to see how she left the hive. She's on the side wall at the left of the photo, the entrance is at the right hand side of the picture, partially obscured by grass with a few bees milling around it.

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## gavin

The leg amputations - any idea when that happened?

And in that last photo, is that a worker in the act of carrying a pollen load into a cell?  Obviously it must happen, it is just that I've never seen it.

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## prakel

> The leg amputations - any idea when that happened?
> 
> And in that last photo, is that a worker in the act of carrying a pollen load into a cell?  Obviously it must happen, it is just that I've never seen it.


Last time I looked in that box was a couple of weeks ago and she still definitely had all of her legs at the time. 

Interestingly I have another queen (coincidently a sister from the same graft batch as this one) who's had a crippled leg since late July, I had planned to replace her but somehow never got around to it. I checked her hive (just to tick all the boxes) today and she's still going strong.

I think that it's just a part of the cell in the last photo but must admit that it's hard to tell, I can't believe that I actually thought about taking a decent camera but put it away on the grounds that there wouldn't be anything to photograph, when I left this morning I had no intention of opening any hives at all.

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## Jon

Prakel.
Did you see the gammy leg thread from a couple of years ago.

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## prakel

Thanks for that link, some good reading there. (I could type out the relevant Manley passage later today if you like).

My queens mentioned here are both (just) over a couple of years old so the damage is relatively late in life. The one which is still going strong is suffering from a dud right back leg which actually matches your queens. Coincidence? The one which I found outside of the hive had totally lost her front left and half of her middle left. Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure that that was purposely inflicted damage and I have to assume that at least some of the amputation was done after she'd managed to walk around the outside of the hive, a distance I'd estimate as roughly ten or eleven inches. Just seems a long way to walk in that condition but I've no real way of knowing for sure.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Slightly off the immediate topic but-
In the old thread I mentioned about picking up a small swarm or cast with a gammy leg queen
I held on to that in a nucleus hive, because the queen looked like a possible useful addition to the gene pool 
What actually happened was the little colony dragged it's feet  :Smile:  through the year, didn't make progress, and then collapsed when wasps attacked in the Autumn
Beekeeping sometimes brings us up against the harsh reality of "Survival of the Fittest" 
It's not nice but any Queen issues it's probably best to forget sentiment and replace her right away
Goodness knows how many lame ducks I have nursed only to see them die out anyway.

----------


## Jon

Hi DR
I would tend to agree, but a failing colony is not always the fault of the queen.
Last winter was a disaster here and many of us had really tiny survivor colonies in April, often just a frame or so of bees with a queen.
A view put forward was that a lot of queens had mated poorly in the summer of 2012 which had relentless rain.
Anyway, I rescued a couple of these queens to apideas in April and kept them alive in the apideas until June.
They would have dwindled and died otherwise due to lack of bees and insulation.
I then used the queens to make up new nucs mid June and introduced them via introduction cages in the normal fashion.
The nucs built up to full colonies by July and the queens laid really well. Both of these colonies look great at the moment and should overwinter fine. 

Sometimes the problem is nosema, or manky comb or too many mites or in this case, not enough bees.
In the case of a gammy leg I would agree that the queen has no future, although I remember one of mine laid quite well for a while.

----------


## prakel

Yeah I'd agree with the above too and no doubt will find a young drone layer in place of the remaining 'gammy' queen come the spring. Those rather odd events last January which I posted somewhere else on this forum showed me that they are able and willing to raise perfectly healthy looking virgins as late/early as January*. 

She should have been replaced back at the start of August but it's been a difficult year for me and I've been stretched a little too far at times to get everything done when it should have been -there was also a bit of a wrong assumption on my part that they'd replace her themselves before the season got too old. Anyway, it's well established that I suffer BBD.

*I could kill her now and unite but I'm going to let things run their natural course as there's still plenty of brood in the combs.

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## Jon

Whenever I hear someone state 'the bees know best' I sometimes ask them why would they make supersedure cells in October then.
January is even worse.
They clearly don't always know best and often take decisions which would inevitably lead to colony suicide without beekeeper intervention.

The other 'bees know best' statement which bugs me is that they won't take sugar syrup unless they need it.
Of course they will, and will fill all 11 frames in the brood box if offered the free lunch.

Why would a queenless, broodless colony kill a laying queen offered in a cage. Seems daft but they often do just that.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Busy making equipment today. I've got 20 crown boards,2 Cloake boards , 5 swarm boards and 10 boards fitted with lozenge bee escapes under construction. I'm fed up having to scrabble about looking for gear so I'm providing myself with dedicated equipment. Also making hive stands etc. for the ass'n apiary. I shall manufacture wax foundation from my wax store and put a load of frames together ( wired but less wax ) to try to be better prepared for next season. If next year is a repeat of this, examination of the colonies was late and then everything happens in a rush. Our tonne of feed  syrup is down to about a third and we'll be looking to bulk purchase 12.5kg blocks of fondant for next year. I'm also bulk buying honey jars at the honey show , It takes time but our membership is waking up to the fact that bulk purchasing saves a considerable amount of expense - especially on transport costs.

----------


## prakel

Just been looking at some of the gear currently selling on ebay ...solid topped frame feeders and follower boards with Hoffman spacers. Do people really buy this stuff?

----------


## GRIZZLY

Still making kit today, got 20 roofs on the go. The old finger jointer is getting red hot  cutting160 sets of fingers. I am using standard national roofs on my plastic Swienty hives over the winter with 50mm foam board between the roof and the brood box. I think the swienty roofs are a bit scanty with minimal overlap so can blow off in one of our famous gales - alright in the summer tho'. I've just had an email from Gill at Thornes - I see they are offering THIRD quality hive bits with a note that they might need a repair or some other work. I shudder to imagine what they could be like - fit for the fire perhaps?. Surely they're not that desperate for sales !. I would be ashamed to offer this standard of equipment for sale.

----------


## greengumbo

Just back from Spain where the bees were plentiful and the flow was still on full speed. Trees alive with "native black" Catalonian bees - plus ca change !

Bought some lovely orange blossom honey and a jar of alpine thyme honey. Great stuff. Houses in the town of el perello were decorated with wee hexagonal tiles and while there I visited the regional beefarmer cooperative and this touristy place - http://www.melmuria.com/

Got back home and was pleasantly surprised that my bees were out and about as well and bringing in lots of ivy pollen  :Smile:

----------


## mbc

> I've just had an email from Gill at Thornes - I see they are offering THIRD quality hive bits with a note that they might need a repair or some other work. I shudder to imagine what they could be like - fit for the fire perhaps?. Surely they're not that desperate for sales !. I would be ashamed to offer this standard of equipment for sale.


Isnt it a fair enough offer ?
It could be exactly what a keen but skint beekeeper is looking for, with a bit of time on their hands I can imagine it being quite enjoyable to make good some cheap kit in the spirit of 'make do and mend'( says myself, rapidly typing "fawns" into my browser !).
Its worth next to nothing as firewood, but could give many years of service given a bit of patching up.

----------


## GRIZZLY

The thing is mbc I like my bee gear to be maintained in as perfect a condition as possible. As you are probably aware - I make or made the majority of my own equipment  having just retired from a self employed bespoke furniture/cabinet making business. With the profit Thornes are making on their products , I consider their attitude penny pinching. I know they are only charging pennies  for their scrapbox items but it doesn't change my opinion.

----------


## Feckless Drone

Two strong colonies and two much weaker nucs now prepared for winter, loaded down with rocks/bricks. Watching bees working ivy yesterday and noticed activity about 60 feet up a leylandii. Sure there is a swarm settled in there. DR - how long is your ladder? Alternative is to chop down the leylandii - I am tempted.
I'm going to have to try to get up there and have a look. Why leylandii when there are so many inviting chimneys and garages around tayside?

----------


## gavin

> I'm going to have to try to get up there and have a look.


Now then, I might argue with that statement FD!  The other option is to tell yourself the colony is unlikely to survive the winter where it is, or once transferred to a box.  A hopeless case.  Daft bees too if they've swarmed fairly recently.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Two strong colonies and two much weaker nucs now prepared for winter, loaded down with rocks/bricks. Watching bees working ivy yesterday and noticed activity about 60 feet up a leylandii. Sure there is a swarm settled in there. DR - how long is your ladder? Alternative is to chop down the leylandii - I am tempted.
> I'm going to have to try to get up there and have a look. Why leylandii when there are so many inviting chimneys and garages around tayside?


60 ft FD that's too high 
you might tempt them with a box and some comb a bit lower down say 10ft
if you can get them moving with a catpult and a flour bomb you might see which hive they go back to

----------


## Trog

Maybe they're not a recent swarm but have been there since the summer?

A leylandii that big is probably climbable - ladder for the first bit then branches (my better half does that with the huge blue spruces every Christmas to cut a top as a Christmas tree).

----------


## gavin

Near FD's home base there was a report of a full colony absconding earlier this summer.  Could be that one.  If you really really really want to have a look, I'll help hold the ladder - but I'll be trying up the last minute to talk you out of it!

----------


## Feckless Drone

> Near FD's home base there was a report of a full colony absconding earlier this summer.  Could be that one.  If you really really really want to have a look, I'll help hold the ladder - but I'll be trying up the last minute to talk you out of it!


Hi - I don't think this is a recent swarm, and the branches up high are so close together it would be difficult to climb through with any kind of veil on. I am going to let them go - they are unlikely even to survive today's weather. But lesson is - might keep my bait hive out longer next year.

----------


## greengumbo

Heavy frost again this morning.

Question - I've not dummied down one colony in an old WBC. I've cut out kingspan to the correct dimensions ready to go but since its struggled to get over 4'C last few days I'm reluctant to go in. Its not forecast to get much above 7 or 8 for the next week or two. If I am quick is it okay to go in / remove the 4 frames to the side of the brood nest, whack in the kingspan and retreat ? Ditto for removing an ashforth feeder from another hive and replacing with an insulated eke for fondant later on.

----------


## Jon

Colder the better as the bees will be in a tight cluster.
You should be done in a couple of minutes.

----------


## Rosie

I'm with Jon. I wouldn't hesitate to open mine for that but not all colonies are the same.  If you have a big loose Italian cluster the bees could be all over the shop. I think I would do it fairly early in the day though so the bees can adjust to the new conditions before evening.

----------


## Jon

I moved a couple of nucs housed in light correx boxes into Polyboxes last week.
A minute to lift out frames from one box to the other does them no harm.
Reading some posts, especially on biobees, you would think opening a box for a few seconds chills all the brood and kills it.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Might it help to work over a large roof or a sheet?  It's just that if the bees fall off, they often can't fly back into the hive - they just stay there.  If they fall in the roof or onto a sheet then you can just brush them back in.
Kitta

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> The thing is mbc I like my bee gear to be maintained in as perfect a condition as possible. As you are probably aware - I make or made the majority of my own equipment  having just retired from a self employed bespoke furniture/cabinet making business. With the profit Thornes are making on their products , I consider their attitude penny pinching. I know they are only charging pennies  for their scrapbox items but it doesn't change my opinion.


£34  for a Snelgrove board is a a bit steep ,and by fitting rings into the doors they stick out you can't store the thing under the hive roof

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## greengumbo

Sun was out yesterday and so were a few hardy ivy collectors even though it barely got about 8'C. Dummied down the hive that needed it only to find they have actually drawn and filled 2 of the 4 frames I thought to remove over the past month. Stuffed some cellotex in there anyway and got a nice insulated roof on with room for fondant later on. Finally took the ashforths of the other 2 and got them nice and cosy for winter. They were both loosely clustered over about 6 lang frames and so fingers crossed something gets through this winter in decent nick.

Bulbs starting to pop up over the garden already. 

Does anyone grow late flowering chrysanths by the way ? Mine never flowered and I'm guessing they wont be hardy enough outside ?

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## Jon

11c today. Bees very active with lots of ivy pollen coming in.

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## The Drone Ranger

Much the same here it's still 10.3C at the moment
I've been cleaning off the varroa floor inserts ready for mite counts
This year though I have about half of the bees on solid floors

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## greengumbo

Bees extremely active on Saturday about 11am. The sun was right on the hives and they were going ballistic. Great to see ! One note of concern was a single drone that was doing orientation flights. I've been warned this could be a bad sign ?

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## Jon

> I've been warned this could be a bad sign ?


I have read that too and it's alleged that it could be a sign of a failing queen or a colony with an unmated queen.
I am not sure there is any truth in that as I have had the odd colony overwinter with a few drones right through to spring.

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## beejazz

I have one also, a hive with a couple of drones still flying, this year's queen, from brood half of AS.  She mated/laid very quickly so I'd thought she would be OK, wondering now maybe not.  Although Michael Palmer who is posting on the BKF has put up some pictures of his hives in the USA in winter snow and shows a drone entering a top entrance.  Perhaps it is not that unusual?

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## greengumbo

> I have one also, a hive with a couple of drones still flying, this year's queen, from brood half of AS.  She mated/laid very quickly so I'd thought she would be OK, wondering now maybe not.  Although Michael Palmer who is posting on the BKF has put up some pictures of his hives in the USA in winter snow and shows a drone entering a top entrance.  Perhaps it is not that unusual?


Did you see the post further down with the Serbian hives covered in snow ? That is a proper snowfall !

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## beejazz

Goran's post?  that's deep snow!

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## fatshark

Microclimate or different bees ...?

5-6 centigrade here today and no more for the best part of the day. I checked about a dozen hives all within 3 miles of here. Most have heavily insulated Perspex crown boards. On those that I checked most were tightly clustered immediately under the Perspex, clearly the warmest part of the hive. A couple were in slightly looser clusters, but still effectively shut down. One was pretty busy - considering the temperature - with bees leaving and arriving every 30 seconds or so. No obvious pollen from late ivy. This hive is one of three, all about the same strength, all have queens of the same age (and same mother).

No idea why ... it'll be interesting to see if it continues to be more active through the winter, or if it indicates some sort of malaise and doesn't make it.

As you can tell, it's been a quiet time in bee world  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> As you can tell, it's been a quiet time in bee world


I was feeling the same so I have decided to do another stacked bar graph of the varroa drop through the winter
Only half the hives are on varroa floors with sealed trays though, the rest are on solid floors
So it will be a bit more limited

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## Jon

Lots of pollen coming in today. 9c and bees are quite active.

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## Calum

> Lots of pollen coming in today. 9c and bees are quite active.


Wow, 
luckily here its about -3°C so the bees are sitting tight and getting ready for their oxalic treatment...
While I drink mulled mead and reflect on a year where I missed every target I set myself:
from 8 -> 30 colonies I managed 26, then the wasps and bees destroyed 5 of themraise 50 mated queens -> managed only 40200 kg honey -> managed only 140 (thanks to melisatrose - (but I have 100 frames of feed for next year)

I might have to set more realistic targets for next year... from 4-> 15 colonies, 50 mated queens, and 80kg honey methinks

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## Jon

Apidea activity half an hour ago

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## Jon

Ivy pollen and a white pollen coming into the nuc.

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## mbc

Why the queen excluder over the entrance ?

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## Jon

I put it over a couple of days ago as a makeshift mouseguard. Didn't expect such activity!

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## susbees

> Why the queen excluder over the entrance ?


The small ones like that are awful pollen strippers...especially of big ivy baskets. Been there, done that....and felt the guilt  :Wink:

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## GRIZZLY

Not so much as a peep from my bees for the last few days.  It's been quite cold plus the wind chill factor makes quite a chill in the air. Our Ass'n held its first honey show on Monday with Peter and Christine Matthews doing joint judgeing in front of our membership and explaining what they were looking for and what their findings were. As most of our membership have never  entered a honey show and were therefore "beginners" the standard that Peter found was quite high and his commentary of great interest and benefit for the future.  We're now looking forward to next years show.

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## GRIZZLY

All the colonies flying today in the sunshine. We're benefitting from the slightly warmer weather today.Didn't see any pollen tho' ,  although the Ivy still seems to be in flower.

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## GRIZZLY

Managed to get round the bees and dose them with this years oxalic acid. Will be interesting to check mite drops. As we're off "down south" for Christmas and New Year I've added extra bricks to the hive roofs in case we get another horrendous blow. 
Happy Christmas to everyone.

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## fatshark

Happy Christmas everyone, particularly those struggling with this weather  

HappyChristmas.JPG

 a carefully posed photo (no, really). The mug on the left contains cold tea and Marmite for the mead I've been making today. Also racked - for the second time - the stuff I made this time last year. Hmmm  nice and clear but a bit insipid. Probably *not* a shoe in for the 2014 honey show  :Wink:  

Penultimate beekeeping job of the day was to take delivery of 5 boxes of jars - now tucked away until I bottle some soft set honey in the New Year. 

The final job is to crack open one of those bottles of Waggle Dance  :Stick Out Tongue: 

_Best Wishes for Christmas and the New Year_.

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## The Drone Ranger

We don't have any waggle dance here so Sauvignon blanc is on the menu  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

Happy new year all !

Glorious sun today in the north and there were a few bees shooting off east out of the hives. Oxalic done and clusters looking in good shape. Fondant on all of them.

Garden in an advanced state as well but I expect an almighty late winter will ruin all of this optimism soon !

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## beejazz

Happy new year!  I don't know what my bees are up to, but I visited a large garden centre today and saw loads of bees on the hellebores there, a very heartening sight.  Wimbledon Asso. has an apiary nearby, so must have been their bees, collecting pollen.

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## nemphlar

No bees out but confused primroses in flower

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## greengumbo

Well a few hardy girls out today as well. Sunny but cold. Had a pleasant surprise on a walk through a local woodland after a tip from a mate. Found about 10 - 15 old smith hives in various states of disrepair and without bees.....I guess about 10 - 20 years since last used by a beekeeper, no varroa boards but some poly sheets under roofs and as dummy frames. Some are totally rotten unfortunately. I have contacted the land owner and can have them if I want so I have the torch ready and a stock of virkon and will assess how many can be cleaned and recovered. A wee project for the coming year. Also stumbled across a hill covered in heather nearby which is generally unheard of in our area so all in all a good day !

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## fatshark

Good find GG  a semi-commercial guy here moved away and left a load of colonies dotted around the place. Some were in a terrible state - toppled over, roofs blown off. To my surprise some still had bees in. I hate to think what they were riddled with so reported them to a friend who operates in the same area. Many were only suitable for firewood (after drying!). I hope you manage to recover something useful.

Treated with OA today in an apiary with catkins on the willows (I think  not good on plants/trees). Colonies were much stronger than I'd expected, with one - on a single brood - with bees in all 10 seams. However, this is a little misleading as I use a thickly insulated crownboard and the bees tend to 'cluster' in a pancake underneath it.

Also treated a friends colony that went into the winter as a weak nuc in a National brood box  at the last inspection we replaced 7 frames with two insulated Harden 'fat dummies' as a sort of last resort. It looked as strong as it went into the winter. I suspect many of the colonies we're treating have not yet had a brood less period (at least here in the balmy South). 

Not sure how many people have seen the recommendation from the LASI group in Sussex to inspect and destroy brood before OA treatment (covered here, but the original needs a Facebook account which I'm too old and uncool to have). This isn't something I'm prepared to do. However, with strong colonies now and brood possibly present, it suggests a close eye might need to be kept early in the season. I have one I'm likely to do a shook swarm on if the Varroa/DWV situation doesn't improve.

I'm teaching Varroa treatment on our beginners course in a few weeks  I took some videos of the treatment to show how quick and easy it is. I was pleased to note that the bees behaved impeccably  helped by the temperature which was hovering around 3 degree  :Wink:

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## Bridget

Treated with OA today and found one of my two small colonies has succumbed.  Not surprised as it was very small.  Plenty of stores and fondant which had been used. Found the queen, she was rather small.  the other colony is also small, only about 2 - 3 seams.  they are still uncapping stores and haven't touched the fondant.  It's been very wet and cold here for quite a while so despite my love of skiing  I,m hoping for an early spring to have a chance of that wee colony surviving. 


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## brothermoo

Went to the out apiary, first time since high winds, and lucky enough the hive still stands! It's only a nuc (although double brood) treated with OA over the 3 seams and fed fondant.
uploadfromtaptalk1389812594725.jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

Phew!  I think you were lucky, Brothermoo.  Is it in a sheltered spot?  That hive looks terribly vulnerable to me - not just to wind, but also to animals that might bump it over.
Kitta

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## brothermoo

Yeah it is a good sheltered spot in a field that is being slowly converted to an orchard. Hope they build up well in spring so that I can get them into normal boxes for a wider base, animals are a concern until then!
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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...animals are a concern until then!
>  ...


Please strap up that hive, Brothermoo! Anchor the straps into the ground with sturdy tent pegs or something like that.
Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

... or put it on a pallet and strap the hive to the pallet.

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## brothermoo

Ok just for you  :Wink: 

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## GRIZZLY

All my colonies out and flying yesterday. Hope the weather doesn't turn bad like last year. I must check their store level - they could be using quite a lot due to the extra activity.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Ok just for you 
> 
> ___________________________________
> sent from my smartphone.. although it doesn't filter my not-so-smart comments


Thank you, Brothermoo! I'm happy now.

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## snimmo243

Look what I found right outside one of my hives today 

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## gavin

Way to go!  Give them a bit of sun and 8C and the bees will be taking home orange pollen loads for 2014's babies.  Well ahead of most years.  Far ahead of last:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ys-news/page90

but given that the weather will be cold for a while will spring beat 2012?

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/en...-at-the-apiary

I must visit mine this weekend.

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## Trog

Our first snowdrop opened on Wednesday (22nd).   Given the weather, it probably wishes it hadn't!  Even our hardy wee bees won't be venturing out tomorrow ... nor will I, probably!  Lots of ferries cancelled in anticipation of yet another storm.

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## greengumbo

I've a single snowdrop out and not much else. Was down in Somerset over the weekend and the bits that were not covered in water had some daffodils open.

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## rogerb

I've got snowdrops and aconites.

But the big job today was moving two hives to higher ground as their stands were well underwater, and only a few inches to go before the base of the hive would start to disappear, had a peek under their quilts and they seemed no worse for their ordeal.

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## Adam

rogerb,
What are your quilts made from?

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## rogerb

Ah, I wish you hadn’t asked that, I’m exposed as a cheap-skate and maltreater of bees; I use an old fleece, I have a big collection of them with dead zips and dryer burns, that live in a polybag, nice and warm in the house.   When I have a peek in the “closed season” I take some with me in case I feel any dampness (this happens not more than once or twice a year).   So if I do I work out the source, cure it and then give them a fresh dry toasty one.    When I have a peek I’m normally looking to see if they have had a go at their block of fondant (I give each hive a small ice cream tub full when I tuck them away).

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## gavin

Not to worry - there are guys here who house their bees in nothing but correx!

My beekeeping career started with secondhand equipment including bits of old carpet with neat flaps in them where the feed hole sits.  I'm sure there are guys using that now.

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## greengumbo

> Not to worry - there are guys here who house their bees in nothing but correx!
> 
> My beekeeping career started with secondhand equipment including bits of old carpet with neat flaps in them where the feed hole sits.  I'm sure there are guys using that now.


I have a carpet with hole that I got given when I got a few WBCs ! I admit i didn't use it though. I made a nice eke with kingspan and room for fondant instead.

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## Adam

> Not to worry - there are guys here who house their bees in nothing but correx!
> 
> .


I do know of such a cruel beekeeper!

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## drumgerry

Well not really today's news but got my place booked on my II course in June a couple of weeks back (been a while since I was last on SBAi) and am counting the days.  Drone squishing here we come!

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## gavin

You said that last bit with a wee bit too much enthusiasm for comfort!  If you look around at the faces at a queen breeding meeting when they come to that bit, you can find the odd woman looking enthusiastic but the blokes are mostly wincing!

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## kevboab

The ultimate sacrifice. Poor wee guys get such a raw deal.

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## drumgerry

All for the greater good guys!  I'll try to keep the relish down to a minimum Gavin!

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## fatshark

> Well not really today's news but got my place booked on my II course in June a couple of weeks back (been a while since I was last on SBAi) and am counting the days.  Drone squishing here we come!


Which course are you going on drumgerry? 

[Ha!  my spellchecker converts drumgerry to drudgery  which seems a bit harsh]

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## drumgerry

Aye poor choice of username on my part eh Fatshark?!  The course is the one being given by Michael Collier through the Beeman in Dumfries-shire in June.

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## robin118

How much does the equipment for II cost? I've heard its rather expensive.

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## drumgerry

I only have experience with the kit I bought Robin which is from Dr Schley in Germany and it was around 2,000 Euros.  I know there are other brands and even DIY versions - perhaps someone else might give you more information on the subject.

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## mbc

> How much does the equipment for II cost? I've heard its rather expensive.


I have a friend who successfully uses home made insemination equipment he picked up from a Polish beekeeper for just over a ton.

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## fatshark

Just back in from a mammoth session painting poly nuc boxes for the coming season. I'd really prefer those "Bee Box" Langstroth poly nucs from Modern Beekeeping to only have handholds on the end panels and to have *none* of that irritating (from a painting point of view) branding anywhere.

Time for a beer   :Stick Out Tongue:

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## drumgerry

Spraying the buggers is much easier Fatshark!

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## fatshark

I'm sure it is … but that would mean more 'investment' in my beekeeping activities. Painting is also a rather sensitive subject at the moment as there's the minor issue of the hall and landing I keep getting reminded about. Better to keep a very low profile i think  :Wink:

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## Wmfd

Those poly nucs are a faff to paint. I only have had to do one and I've yet to use it in anger. Looks nice in green though. 

Yesterday was a joy here in East Anglia, 10C, sun shining and bees flying. I had a quick run around and all six hives still going. Fondant now on all of them, and one taking down about a lb. a week.

I really should get organised on putting together hives and frames.  Still some roofs, supers and lots of frames to go.

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## Bridget

Jealous from the Highlands of Scotland


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## Bridget

Today's News from Sochi -seeing as there's not much else topical on here today.

I thought you might like the small picture from a Sochi blogger - of his breakfast honey in a nice small package, complete with dead bee.  Shame when I went back to copy I found there was no way to copy it, so you will have to imagine.  Those pesky Russians blocked it I think, along with the pictures of hanging cables, brown tap water and loos seat put on wrong.


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## Bridget

Ah! Bee in honey from Sochi


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## nemphlar

[QUOTE=Bridget;23746]
Ah! Bee in honey from Sochi


LOL I've visited the country a number of times and you wouldn't recognise it as the same place the BBC or CNN report on, free visa available during the Olympics try it

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## Bridget

I gather dead bees in honey is very common in China so maybe the Chinese got the food contract



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## Bridget

[QUOTE=nemphlar;23751]


> Ah! Bee in honey from Sochi
> 
> 
> LOL I've visited the country a number of times and you wouldn't recognise it as the same place the BBC or CNN report on, free visa available during the Olympics try it


I take your point Nemphlar but this is not your normal Russia. The Olympics produces a very different circumstance.  build great stadia but forget to install the loo properly and then get slagged by the worlds press cos they use the loo several times a day.


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## Trog

Perhaps the bee was placed in the pack to prove it was real honey?

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## The Drone Ranger

Could be worse
Might have been a horse in the pasties

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## greengumbo

Bees flying today and the chickens started laying eggs again  :Smile:

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## Jon

Checked 10 hives at my allotment apiary for the first time in 5 weeksand signs of life in all of them.
Looking like a better start to the season than this time last year when the penny had just dropped that losses were going to be very heavy.
I have 5 nucs in the garden still alive and kicking as well as 5 apideas.

4 still to check at the association apiary as well as 9 nucs overwintering for beginners.

They are all heavy so no need for any fondant.

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## GRIZZLY

Today we have a mighty wind PLUS driving snow.. The daffodils are nearly out , the snowdrops have been out for weeks and the catkins are waving about on the hazel bushes. We've been sawing up our fallen trees and stacking the logs ready to dry out for next year. My workshop is filling up with new equipment we've been making for our new teaching apiary .

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## Jon

Bloody hell.
just looked behind the shed and the wind had blown the shelving down.

back-garden-nov13.jpg

Must have happened earlier this afternoon.
The wind really picked up after midday.
One of the slot shelving uprights had come off tipping 3 nucs and 6 apideas on top of the nuc lower down which tipped over as well.
It was held on with 75mm screws screwed into 4 inch battens so I don't know how that could have failed.
Maybe the uprights came away from the screw heads with the wind rocking it.
It looked like a pile of lego with nucs, apideas, planks and insulation in a pyramid on top of a muddy quagmire.
I discovered this just before dark and got everything back together as best I could.
I closed everything up as I need to fix the shelving and put everything back in place tomorrow.
Will be a bugger working out the order of the apideas.
cross your fingers for the ten queens in that lot.

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## prakel

> cross your fingers for the ten queens in that lot.


Best of luck with them, this is a winter I hope we don't see repeated too soon.

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## Bridget

For a moment I was confused cos I saw bees out. then I saw the leaves on the trees so it was taken last year


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## Jon

Photo was taken on 13th November.

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## Pete L

> Best of luck with them, this is a winter I hope we don't see repeated too soon.


Hope your nucs end up okay Jon.

Prakel, i hope we do get more mild winters like this one, better than snow and months on end of freezing cold.

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## Jon

Hopefully all ok unless a queen or two got nipped in the fall.
I think they were only exposed for a couple of hours.

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## prakel

Well, today (so far) is what might be called 'mild'. Precious few days like this in these parts over the last 50 or so days; the clever people with calculators and pretty maps might disagree but I doubt that they've been stood outside trying to work in the almost constant chill of the wind.

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## Wmfd

Day off today, popped into the garden and found myself surrounded by bees making the best of a mild day.

They're even making use of the wallflowers I planted for them.

David

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## brothermoo

Been making hives up over the last few days so my tablesaw has been busy... Thought I would try something from the mike Palmer school of thought and today I made a double nuc box for over-wintering.

It takes 5frames each side (rose OSB)
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## Bridget

Bees flying at last.  Not many but good to se them out for a bit


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## greengumbo

Heaps of bees out again today. Making my plans for the season ahead now. Saw a bumblebee today and a queen wasp in the garden - firsts for the year.

In non bee related news - last night saw some amazing aurora above our house which complemented a lovely glenlivet 15yo  :Smile: IMG_6986.jpg

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## GRIZZLY

Bees out in force today,taking advantage of the warmer spell. I've also made up some of the double side by side neucs a la Mike Palmer with another b.box on top. Each side will take a full hive split into two boxes. These make good cell builders for Q rearing. Missed the Aurora however. Shameful.

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## Jon

> In non bee related news - last night saw some amazing aurora above our house which complemented a lovely glenlivet 15yo IMG_6986.jpg


brilliant photo GG

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## fatshark

Very envious of the aurora GG  no sign of it down here that night. 9 years living in Glasgow and I missed it the one time it appeared there as well. Two trips to Northern Finland, way above the Arctic Circle  snowed all the time I was there  :Frown: 

On a brighter note  added pollen to colonies today to get them fired up for the OSR. Just a tablespoonful or so on piece of card laid on the top bars. When I checked 6 hours later all were taking it down, and one had finished it.  Despite the temperature being about 7 centigrade all day (and raining) the addition of the pollen appears to have really excited the colonies  those I checked were rushing about under the Perspex crown board when I checked about six hours later.

test-scaled640.jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

Lovely aurora photo, Greengumbo.  If that was taken about 4 in the morning (was it?), then no wonder I've missed it - and happy bees, Fatshark.  Did you harvest the pollen yourself last year?
Kitta

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## GRIZZLY

Can't get near the bees for a while having had a foot operation which keeps me off my feet for a least 6 weeks.  My wife has said she is going to take them on and I've had offers of help from our association members - which I intend to accept. The bees are flying when they can but the high winds and heavy showers are starting to hamper development, still I suppose they will come good in the long run.

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## Bridget

> Can't get near the bees for a while having had a foot operation which keeps me off my feet for a least 6 weeks.  My wife has said she is going to take them on and I've had offers of help from our association members - which I intend to accept. The bees are flying when they can but the high winds and heavy showers are starting to hamper development, still I suppose they will come good in the long run.


Good luck with the op Grizzly.  Fraser had his ankle fused last winter and was also off his feet for 6 weeks.  He was also not meant to lift anything heavy for several months so bear that in mind.  It's been worth it - you could see how lame he still was when we were on Colonsay but although it's taken a good year since the op he is now much improved and at last totally off the painkillers which he has been on for years.  We skied about 3 weeks ago - his surgeon said he wouldn't ski again so we were very chuffed with that.  Worth all the aggro if you get a good result.


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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes - best wishes from me as well, Grizzly. With Margaret there the bees will still be in good hands. Kitta

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## GRIZZLY

Thanks Bridget and Kitta. Margaret and I  are going up to Colonsay again this summer to follow up on queen rearing. I hope to come away with one of Andrews black queens to add some other genes to my bees and help avoid in-breeding. Met Andrew and had a long chat with him at the National honey show last October. I see he is listed as one of the speakers at the BIBBA conference later on in the year.

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## Mellifera Crofter

I hope you'll have better weather this time! K

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## brothermoo

Crocus pollen being carted in by the basket load! Lots of action around the entrance this morning thanks to the sun shining!
More weather like this and I will be transferring my nuc into full sized box  :Big Grin: 
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## gavin

... and elsewhere in Belfast there were Amms piling in the pollen in the sun.  Colours and local flora suggest willow, dandelion, a bit of hazel still, and who knows what else!  Happy bees getting on with making big colonies in the sunshine.

See you this evening I hope BM.

G.

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## brothermoo

> See you this evening I hope BM.
> 
> G.


I see you! 

uploadfromtaptalk1394485335286.jpg

Good to have you with us Gav!

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## busybeephilip

Hmmm.... my bald patch is getting bigger !

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## Jon

I know the feeling Phil. We can't all have a head of hair like Willy B.

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## Blackcavebees

Looks like a good display on the screen

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## gavin

> Looks like a good display on the screen


LOL! That Belfast BKA display?  They must be proud of it!

As well as some fine top-of-the heads of hair I do see an impressive chin of hair too!  And I wasn't meaning that Santa-impersonator either.

You can see my view of the masses in the usual place here.

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## Jon

Did anyone mention what a fine display Belfast put on at the conference?

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## Blackcavebees

> As well as some fine top-of-the heads of hair I do see an impressive chin of hair too!  And I wasn't meaning that Santa-impersonator either.


we call it the Black Cave system, used in queenright colonies, graft the chin hairs mid to late May and after 35 days in an apidea ready to make increase for any bald spots, LOL

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## GRIZZLY

Well we finally got some bees for our Ass'n apiary. One of our senior members has given up beekeeping and has donated his bees and all his kit to the Assn and members. They turned up in WBC's and our first task is to pop them into nationals suitable for teaching beginners.  All we have to do now is to give them a health check and check their docility and ease of handling. Just keepng our fingers crossed they are relatively docile for handling by beginners.

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## Jon

You can always requeen asap when you have a few queens available.
As long as they are disease free there should be no problem.

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## brothermoo

Weather is woeful here so I made a trip to the association apiary of course! I needed a day like this so that I could move a stand with two hives underneath a tree with 2 massive dead limbs. Got the work done not a bee in sight.. sometimes the rain is a good thing!
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## busybeephilip

hey Moo, dont forget the 3 foot or 3 mile rule for moving bees

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## Jon

Where was this - Cultra?

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## brothermoo

Don't worry Phil the bees were placed back on their stand in the same place after the work was completed. Yes Jon cultra.

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## gavin

I'll be moving bees (to a more secure site  :Wink: ) less than 1 km tomorrow.  We're in for a few days in which there ought to be next to no foraging, and there will be a colony on the same stand to receive any that do go back, so I'm not anticipating particular problems.

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## busybeephilip

> I'll be moving bees (to a more secure site ) less than 1 km tomorrow.  We're in for a few days in which there ought to be next to no foraging, and there will be a colony on the same stand to receive any that do go back, so I'm not anticipating particular problems.


To be honest I have moved bees about 3/4 a mile with no bees returning to the parent stand.  I think that if the bees have plenty of local forage then they dont have to fly far and dont get to learn about their extended environment.  If there was a dearth of nectar then the same might not apply as I would imagine the bees will search up to 3 miles.

I recall my bees visiting a rape field (near minnowburn) bringing in loads of yellow pollen and nectar and it was just about 3 miles away, you could follow the bees leaving the hive in a beeline heading into the distance

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## busybeephilip

> Where was this - Cultra?


Actually jon, some of those big trees in minnowburn are in a dangerous state, the old neighbour told me that some had blown down and that he had to get some cut down in previous years, one reason why we did not select the 1/2 acre area behind the current apairy site

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## crabbitdave

I watched a German beekeeper online if he was moving his hives under 5km, when took them to the new site he would bump the hive off the ground then block the a reduced entrance with fondant, he never explained why he did that only it work, I don't think if be brave enough to do it  


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## gavin

> To be honest I have moved bees about 3/4 a mile with no bees returning to the parent stand.  I think that if the bees have plenty of local forage then they dont have to fly far and dont get to learn about their extended environment.


I think that you are right, especially at this time of year when they are reluctant to go far.  There is a line of willows between their old home and their new one that was a big draw from their old site, but also lots of forage close by their new one.  We plonked them down in their new home at lunch today and it looks really good there.  Plenty of warm sun, shelter, lots of mature trees many of which are good for bees, and a wild flower meadow being sown a hundred metres or so away.

I really did mean it is a secure site: 
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/loc...duced-1.246786

I shouldn't really link to the Courier piece.  It was written by an Evening Telegraph journalist then copied - word for word - into the Courier which comes from the same publishing house.  The journalist putting his name to this piece of plagiarism then illustrated (or his editor did) the print article (but not the online one) with a very similar composite image as produced by the original paper but used a bumble bee rather than a honeybee to illustrate it.  Then the Sunday Post (didn't know it was still publishing) and the Sun took it up as well.

G.

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## brothermoo

Excellent stuff Gavin! There is a 'secure site' near one of our association apiaries, good chance to flood the area with drones we want? Jon? Lol

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## GRIZZLY

Well it looks as though all my colonies have come thro' the winter - second year running withous any losses. Have to maintain the feeding until the weather warms up a bit and the flowering starts.Anti varroal treatments to start as soon as I can get into the hives and perform a proper inspection. Too cold to transfer the donated ass'n bees from the WBC's into Nationals.Must approach Jon to get them wing tested - they are rumoured to be of black bee origin.

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## drumgerry

Pretty early for this sort of thing here in Speyside!

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## Bridget

Oh!  I nearly did a proper inspection on Saturday as it was nice and warm but I kept telling myself too early, far too early for the Highlands.  You must have been surprised!  Maybe I'll have a proper look at the weekend if it's nice again though the breeze off the snowy mountains certainly adds an edge.  


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## drumgerry

Lovely here this afternoon Bridget so I thought I'd take the plunge.  Only got half of them done and had to super a couple.  Those ones had an upturned poly feeder acting as an eke over the fondant and the bees had built brace/wild comb in the space.  Had to cut that off - gutting to have their efforts go to waste in that way. I was removing frames of stores - they'd hardly touched them up to now.  Left them with plenty though and they'll need it as things are really starting to get going now.  Oh what a contrast to last Spring! (so far!)

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## Bridget

Well here in Livingston in the haar it's foul as I'm sure Lucy has told you. 


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## Bridget

Btw are you feeding syrup or is there no need with all the stores left


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## drumgerry

No need to feed when they have frame after frame of sealed stores Bridget.  I was removing frames of stores and replacing them with empty drawn comb.  If they rattle through the stores I've left them I can always replace the frames of stores I took out today.  For everyone else please bear in mind that Bridget and I are in areas with no OSR so we're not trying to stimulate a rapid build up which (although I have no experience of this) I believe can be done with little and often syrup feeding in OSR areas.

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## snimmo243

Depending on where in Livingston Bridget is you mind find there is osr within reach

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## Bridget

No snimmo I just work in Livi three days a week.  I wander through the industrial park with its newish trees and shrubs and a few meadow flowers and even in the heat last summer never see a bee.  I long to put a hive on the factory roof but there is no way up. 
I live the other end of the Spey Valley to Drumgerry


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## Calum

Grrrr it hate twaddle

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## greengumbo

Free seeds with some nice species in there. Better than most that are given away from time to time.

www.growwilduk.com/

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## Bridget

> Grrrr it hate twaddle


I nearly took this as an insult until I realised it was link and not a comment one previous comment.  No one comes well out of that article, especially the journalist.  No wonder I never read the Giardian. Ha ha 


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## prakel

seem to be a LOT of queen wasps about at present.

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## GRIZZLY

Not seen a single wasp yet.

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## Neils

lots round here too.

In other news, I'm moving house. I've now sorted out an apiary for where we are moving to.

It s five minutes away from where we are going to be, in an orchard, with several acres of OSR currently in flower. I'm not moving them now because trying to pack up the house AND extract OSR honey might yet scupper a deal that we've spent a long time trying to make happen.

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## Calum

Bagged the first swarm on Friday evening here.
Transferred it to a hive on Sunday afternoon without issue - the owner must have neglected the dewintering chores for it to go this early.
really lovely carnicas too, not even a twinge of red about them.

they are going at the dandelion like mischief today...
Loewenzahn.jpg

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## snimmo243

I eventually managed to open up both my colonies today, a wee bit disappointed, 3 frames brood in one and 4 in the other plus the same again in stores. Considering I had been using a stimulative syrup to prepare for rape I thought they would be further on! Loads of bees flying and bringing in Orange, yellow and cream pollen. I hope they build up enough to exploit the rape but I suppose on the positive side at least they have survived the winter well

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## madasafish

Opened up three of my six hives.

Overwintered nuc had 3 1/2 frames of brood.. and two frames honey. Apart from being flighty they were fine. One 3 foot TBH had six frames of brood and 2 of nectar - and were very placid. And the warre has one box full of bees and no stores - feeding fondant. All bringing in loads of willow and orange pollen even at 13C..and a cold wind.

I am inspecting the other hives today with a newbie visitor who has had a TBH for a year and never opened it up...  should be fun...


Preparing to switch bees into langstroths in the next 2-3 weeks. When it's warmer...

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## greengumbo

> I eventually managed to open up both my colonies today, a wee bit disappointed, 3 frames brood in one and 4 in the other plus the same again in stores. Considering I had been using a stimulative syrup to prepare for rape I thought they would be further on! Loads of bees flying and bringing in Orange, yellow and cream pollen. I hope they build up enough to exploit the rape but I suppose on the positive side at least they have survived the winter well
> 
> Sent from my C5303 using Tapatalk


What is generally considered strong enough to exploit OSR ? I have 1 small nuc, 1 national with 2 frames brood plus 6 seams bees and 2 langstroths with 8 seams of bees and lots of activity but yet to have a proper look.

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## GRIZZLY

Stick them on the rape and they will certainly build up - might even give you a small surplus at the end.

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## greengumbo

> Stick them on the rape and they will certainly build up - might even give you a small surplus at the end.


They are about 400m from a field about to flower (4 - 6 flowers open on the main stems so far on average) and my wife, i.e. chief bee monitor while I'm at work, said they have been piling out in that direction this week.

First Common Carder Bumble pollinating my gooseberries at the weekend and a swallow overhead. Spring kicking into gear ! It is still very dry though.

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## Calum

So the bee loss statistics for a survey carried out in germany:
Deutschland 	8.330 	107.538 		97.658	 9.880 	9,1 
Belgien 		27 	379 		333	 46 	9,1 
Luxemburg 	17	 661 		645 	16	 2,4
Niederlande 	30	 672 		614	 58 	11,2
Österreich 	50 	1.243 		1.140 	103 	10,8
Schweiz 	              49 	1.169 	             1.051 	 118 	12,4
Land / nr of responses/overwintered colonies/ survived/ losses/ losses in %
 no catastrophy in mainland europe it would seem....

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## Jon

And all of that before the neonic ban could have any possible effect!
If those statistics had been put out a year later the low mortality rate would have been put down to the ban.

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## prakel

> seem to be a LOT of queen wasps about at present.


SAM_3133.jpg

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## greengumbo

Went through my two bigger hives today. Both lang polys. 1st had 6 frames solid brood and about 10% drone brood. 3 were solid with stores and one had fresh nectar and pollen. Have swapped a frame of stores with drawn comb as little space left. 2nd hive was similar so I took a frame of brood and donated it to a weak nuc to give it a boost. Also changed a solid slab of stores for drawn comb. A few drones running about in both hives.

Time to super both ? 

Also took delivery of the MB anti swarm queen trap which I am actually going to use to do a vertical A/S rather than trap the queen.

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## GRIZZLY

Off to the rape today.Must be about a hundred acres of it just coming into flower.

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## fatshark

Split two nucs off a strong double brood colony that appeared to be thinking about swarming … queen plus stores and a frame of brood into one nuc, large charged QC plus stores and a frame of brood into another, leaving a final fat charged QC in the box. The colony had a clipped Q and a single sealed QC which I knocked down. I was surprised they hadn't done a runner but suspect it's because the weather is still pretty cool.

Set up my bait hives. I'm filling them with foundationless frames this year to encourage them to build comb properly from the outset. What could possibly go wrong  :Confused: 

Rather cool day but the bees were working the OSR hard. I did my first grafting of the season as many of the hives have had drones in for a week or so now. I just did it sitting out in the open … if the take isn't good enough I'll have another go tomorrow morning in the shelter of the passenger seat of the car.

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## drumgerry

Ooooo grafting already!  Now you're giving me itchy fingers!  Probably a bit early for me in Speyside though!

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## fatshark

Probably a bit early here … it was bl**dy cold. However, the view from the apiary is looking good  :Embarrassment: 

140419-039.jpg

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## Jon

I hope to get grafting soon. I have a colony with 10 frames of mostly sealed brood which I can set up as a queenright cell raiser shortly.
I don't have drones flying yet but they should be out and about by the middle of May which means I could start grafting from the 1st of the month.

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## brothermoo

Took the kids to see the bees today and they loved it. BIAS and the whole top box is near enough broodnest, they had even drawn out Thee largest cells I have ever seen for drones in the outermost frame which the queen has laid up (where they haven't put all the nectar coming in) no queen cells but a few unused cups so I will check again in a few days to see if there's any more interest in them.

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## nemphlar

Managed to get through them today for the first time this year, astonished at how far on they are. 2 of them are full and have drones which I hadn't seen out, the other 5 are well forward.
3 out of 4, 5 frame nucs half full of brood, only a 2nd year drone layer in a nuc to spoil the day.
Certainly the best start to a year since varroa arrived, from the comments on here seems to be the norm, a mixture of soft winter and low varroa loading perhaps

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## fatshark

> I did my first grafting of the season as many of the hives have had drones in for a week or so now. I just did it sitting out in the open  if the take isn't good enough I'll have another go tomorrow morning in the shelter of the passenger seat of the car.


Take was very poor  so I repeated it this afternoon, in the passenger seat of the car to avoid the squally rain. The bees were beautifully calm which suggests I've done something right in my previous queen selection  :Smile:   If this lot don't work I'll wait until May  any dates between now and then mean they'll be emerging when I have unavoidable commitments.

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## Jon

I find The first round or two is always tricky with very few starts.
But it is nice even to have half a dozen cells to get started with.

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## Little_John

Bl##dy freezing here in the Lincolnshire Fens - strong north-easterly wind coming in off the North Sea with nothing in the way to stop it ...
But - the girls were still flying today - they're a lot tougher than I am. Spent the day in the shed making more of my six-and-a-half-frame NUCs.
BTW - does anyone on here use a Morris Board ? This'll be my second season using one. Bl##dy clever bit of kit.

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## HJBee

Great day today,  3 hours of brilliant bee keeping, 1st thorough hive inspection of the year, 2 hives complete with queens (clipped & marked). Eggs, larvae, sealed brood, pollen & nectar coming in, supers on. The girls behaved impeccably!

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## gavin

Ditto, H-J

Eeek!  I once knew a German professor (the relatively humourless type) with initials H-J, and it has just all come back to me.  Start again.  Ditto, HJ.  I also spent a delightful 3 hrs with the bees, dithering, watching, marking, clipping, listening to drumming woodpeckers and warblers and communing with the hens in the orchard.  We talk to each other.  Sad, I know, in a mature fellow like me.  At least I don't talk to the peacock, he's much too busy strutting his stuff.  Then another three hours on the allotment.  Anyway, that's all 7 queens there now marked and clipped.  I'm aiming for no repeat of any embarassing departure of swarms as me and some beginners arrive in the orchard, as happened last year.

One colony was bursting at the seams.  I gave it a second brood box on Friday and by today it had almost finished drawing out about five of the frames.  Two others have filled a brood box, and four will be fine but are slower to build up.  One pegged it in March, but that one was so fierce it wouldn't let me put on winter feed.  So be it.

Great to see spring properly underway.  In the last two days the leaves have expanded in the hedgerows, the blackthorn is showing signs of passing its best, the swallows have arrived in quantity, and the pears have come out in the orchard.  Lovely.

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## Jon

Gav. I was at the minnowburn apiary on Wednesday and found one of my colonies had 10 frames of brood.
I gave it a second brood box with drawn comb and when I checked this morning it had eggs in 7 of the frames.
I estimate 8000+ in 4 days. So much for non prolific Amm.

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## fatshark

> At least I don't talk to the peacock, he's much too busy strutting his stuff.


I've heard the peacock say the very same thing  :Wink: 

Re. colony size and build up. This is the time of year when strong colonies really take off, whereas small ones - below some sort of threshold of workers to brood perhaps - stay small. The weather tomorrow is looking warm (and wet, but I'll dodge the showers) in the afternoon and I'm going to boost a couple of weaker colonies with a frame of brood and adhering bees, plus a generous spray of scented water of some sort.

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## gavin

That damn peacock is just jealous of the way I comport myself around the estate (save when I get bees down the trousers, as happens occasionally).  Mind you, he wins hands down regarding shaking that ass.  There's no way I can wiggle and rustle like he does.  Must post a photo.  Not me, the peacock.

Yes, once there are enough young bees (I think) the colony goes exponential.  The most vigorous colonies were doing a lot of that up and down shaking, presumably the equivalent of motivational talks: the opportunities are all out there, let's keep up this high level of activity?  Late in the afternoon isn't the time for lots of waggle dances, so the shaking signals were unlikely to be a prelude to that.  

I'll not shift frames around, partly due to the high disease risk where I am (EFB and AFB have been nearby) and partly because I'm keen to assess them all for type and temper amongst other things.  I have one that seems to fit Amm well (even to the extent of putting pollen all round the brood nest) which seems like a good stock although its temper in the autumn was suspect, and others of varying levels of hybridity and excitability.

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## Neils

First inspection and first artificial swarm up at the allotment apiary. Both hives there are packed with bees. One a day or two away from swarming I reckon. Fortunately I've spent a lot of the weekend making up kit both to ready for the new season and on the reasoning that it's easier to move brood boxes and supers when they're made up rather than flat packed.

I was hoping to get the house move completed before I had to deal with swarming, but no dice!  The other colony is also busy, is just starting its first batch of drone brood and now has a super of comb of to play with.

On the nature reserve site, very different state if affairs, one hive with 5 frames if brood, but plenty if pollen and nectar coming in, the other with  6-7 frames, this one now has a super to draw out over the next few weeks as they're starting to pack the brood box with stores.  Traditionally the nature reserve bees have tended to expand much quicker/earlier than those on the allotment, but it's all change this year.

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## fatshark

The weaker colonies weren't anymore … so I helped transfer a nuc into a full colony for my mentees instead. Loads of interest in bait hives this afternoon and one of the colonies at the association apiary swarmed. The queen must have been clipped as they clustered under the floor. Amazingly they then all slowly disappeared, but not through the hive entrance. After an hour or so I got on my hands and knees and peered under the stand. Next to the OMF was a half inch wide gap in the  poly floor. Never seen that before …  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## drumgerry

Been getting to grips with 3 Fairweather pollen traps today as I've volunteered to take part in the CSI/COLOSS pollen collection study and the traps have been loaned to me by SASA.  They are pretty damnable things though - the traps that is! All sorts of gaffer tape required to make the buggers work properly and to ensure the bees head in through the entrance and not underneath it, round the sides etc etc.  Two of the designated colonies seem to be dealing with the traps better than the third which has bees climbing the walls of the hive in preference to going inside.  Are some bees more intelligent than others?  There's one for the scientists  :Wink:  !!  The stupid ones are my "yellowest" colony so maybe it's that!

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## Jimbo

Oh no! got the same job to do this Friday. Better go buy a roll of gaffer tape. Will report back which ones turn out to be the stupid ones

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## nemphlar

Drove up from Sheffield, a sea of yellow all the way up and round scotch corner, 100 miles of OSR , no wonder the guys in the south are talking swarms. Quite an area if your trying to make a living from the bees. I don't normally suffer with hay fever but the smell was thick.

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## prakel

Horse chestnuts in full flower here, got to be one of the nicest sights at this time of year but fields of yellow are a close second!

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## HJBee

The lime trees are breaking out around here

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## greengumbo

> The lime trees are breaking out around here


That is a lovely sight.

My morello cherry and plum is just about to flower so the lime is probably 4 weeks off !

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## prakel

> That is a lovely sight.


It is, but unbelievably early -a little bit like Gavin's Sycamore's which always seem to flower before ours down here on the South Coast. :Smile:

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## snimmo243

We've still got blackthorn in flower in Bathgate and it was February flower of the month in Beecraft! At least I know there will be some slae gin to be had

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## gavin

That's amazingly early for lime!  Ours are just breaking (winter, not flower) bud and will probably flower at the end of June and into July - even the big lime a hundred yards away from that magical early sycamore (must check it at the weekend, can't have west of Scotland lime flowering ahead of our sycamore!).  

I see two types of sloe/blackthorn around here.  In more natural scrubby areas like the steep slopes of the Sidlaws they flower late, but there are early plants where there has been landscaping around road junctions and along roads where they have been planted.  I reckon nursery stock has different triggers for flowering than the original native stuff.

PS  Lovely picture, HJ.

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## HJBee

Have to admit it is not mine, from t'internet. But they are starting to flower in my village.

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## Little_John

> ... no wonder the guys in the south are talking swarms.


Bagged my first swarm of the year this morning ...  :Smile: 

How does the saying go ?  "A swarm in April is worth .... "

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## prakel

A load of silage.

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## prakel

the sun's back too for a couple of days at least

SAM_3156.jpg

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## HJBee

The bumbles and honey bees were going daft in this tree tonight

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## gavin

> The bumbles and honey bees were going daft in this tree tonight


Norway maple, I'll wager.  There is one along a bit from my work window, just coming into flower as yours is.  It is always just ahead of the local sycamore, has leaves that are similar, but it holds its flowers erect rather than dangling under leafy umbrellas as sycamore does.  Bees often work sycamore in light drizzle and I reckon these umbrellas help keep the flowers and bees dry.

http://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/lear.../norway-maple/



G.

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## HJBee

I thought they were sycamore but I will have a look again to see if they are upright flowers or dangling. H

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## gavin

> I thought they were sycamore but I will have a look again to see if they are upright flowers or dangling. H


Norway maple: flowers out before leaves open, earlier, erect, not organised into a spike with a central stem and flowers off that.  Smaller tree.

Sycamore: flowers wait until their umbrella is ready, dangling, in a well-defined hanging spike.  A big butch tree in time.

They are closely related Acer species.  Here's a sycamore from last May on the outskirts of Longforgan.

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## Adam

> Bagged my first swarm of the year this morning ... 
> 
> How does the saying go ?  "A swarm in April is worth .... "


A bagel?

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## fatshark

Filthy wet day here (and more to come) so no need to peek at the bait hives expectantly …  :Frown: 
However, I did get an order for a load of honey  :Smile: 

In yesterdays news, I checked a nuc late in the afternoon where I'd added a foundationless frame (see the fishing line thread started by Jon in 2012) on Sunday evening. The entire thing was drawn out and the queen had laid up many of the cells … beautiful  :Smile:

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## snimmo243

On the issue of things in flower I can report that on my travels today the osr in broxburn and kirkcaldy are about 75% in bloom whilst at inverkeithing it is barely in bloom, meanwhile sycamore in kirkcaldy is flowering whilst willow catkins are everywhere!

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## brothermoo

Found one solitary queencell in my hive today. Put the frame with it on into a nuc (I did transfer cell from bottom of frame to middle) then added few frames and shook some bees in to create a nice wee easy split. Doubled my hive count  which is nice! There were no other queencells just a couple of cups that were empty, but the one with the larvae was loaded with royal jelly!  :Smile: 

___________________________________
brothermoo.wordpress.com

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## Little_John

> A bagel?


I decided to look it up in a rhyming dictionary - apparently there aren't any English words which directly rhyme with 'April'.

There are a few words which are close, like 'Sable' - but maybe a Sable coat for a swarm is a bit ambitious - maybe a Sable Mitten ?  I've heard there are ladies in Soho who can do wonders with such things.  :Smile:

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## HJBee

[QUOTE=gavin;24764]Norway maple: flowers out before leaves open, earlier, erect, not organised into a spike with a central stem and flowers off that.  

Definitely Norway Maple!

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## greengumbo

Off with her head ! Queen that has layed nothing in the past 2 weeks despite a lovely patch of polished cells ready for HM and the odd drone got the chop tonight. I suspect late supercedure as no colour maring on her back from last year. Cut a square of eggs out from another hive and patchworked it into the new hive. Should I give them a few days before checking for QCs ?

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## fatshark

Nope … you should be able to tell tomorrow if they're queenless by the the way they've treated the egg-containing comb you've patched in. I think I've read somewhere of beekeepers using the hive tool to break the wall down a bit across a row of cells to encourage them to draw out QC's.

"Late" supercedure for you is 23rd of June or so isn't it?? 

My news is I received a copy of Cueilleurs de miel (Honey gatherers) which has stunning images in it. It's on Amazon at the best price in some time.

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## greengumbo

> Nope  you should be able to tell tomorrow if they're queenless by the the way they've treated the egg-containing comb you've patched in. I think I've read somewhere of beekeepers using the hive tool to break the wall down a bit across a row of cells to encourage them to draw out QC's.
> 
> "Late" supercedure for you is 23rd of June or so isn't it?? 
> 
> My news is I received a copy of Cueilleurs de miel (Honey gatherers) which has stunning images in it. It's on Amazon at the best price in some time.


The website for that book is stunning. I routinely "borrow" images from it for talks and posters. In fact I did so not five minutes ago.

I shall have a look at the frame tommorrow morn and squish the bottom row of cells down. I just read on the _other_ forum that I am going to just raise a scrub queen that will be useless. I could have grafted but was in a rush tonight to be honest. I was planning on proper queen raising starting in a few weeks.

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## fatshark

> I am going to just raise a scrub queen that will be useless


Not quite sure why  I suppose the alternative would be to unite them and - once you've got some queens - split the entire box up into nucs perhaps. 

Surprising how often the term scrub queen and useless appear on the same page. Often they do just fine, getting you out of  a tight spot and keeping the colony ticking over. Sounds quite useful to me.

As an aside, for those that don't know the photographs from Eric Tourneret, his website (referred to above) is here. Next time you're firing up that shiny stainless steel 12 frame radial beauty have a look at how some harvest their honey.

Bees-Nepal-Hunters32.jpg
Image by Eric Tourneret  used in awe.

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## greengumbo

> Nope  you should be able to tell tomorrow if they're queenless by the the way they've treated the egg-containing comb you've patched in. I think I've read somewhere of beekeepers using the hive tool to break the wall down a bit across a row of cells to encourage them to draw out QC's.


Well I had a quick peek and nothing being drawn from the patch of eggs I donated.

I will leave them until the weekend now and then try grafting.

Could I have a laying worker if the queen was a late supercedure last year that was misfiring ? Any tell tale signs ? Could it be its just bloody miserable today outside so the bees are not up for raising a queen straight away ?

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## gavin

> Well I had a quick peek and nothing being drawn from the patch of eggs I donated.


No young bees and so they can't?  But you'd expect some old ones to at least try.  Maybe they've just been hanging around too long and have got depressed?




Oh, and sycamore are out all over, as is that Norway maple.  Edinburgh and Tayside, brollies out just in time for the rain.  :Wink:

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## greengumbo

Could I raise a queen in stronger q+ hive using harden method and then pop it in this one ? 

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## chris

La fête du travail- labour day. Except for the bees  :Smile: 
Walking around this morning, I noticed them going crazy on the maples that were in the sun. First time this year. Always amazed by how it begins suddenly. It signals the start of the big build up towards the lime in June.

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## greengumbo

> Could I raise a queen in stronger q+ hive using harden method and then pop it in this one ? 
> 
> Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk


Well nothing is easy.

Single QC being drawn from my donated eggs BUT butterfingers then dropped the sodding frame. The lip of the cell being drawn was slightly bent - will this result in a dud ? I guess I will graft into this hive just in case.

Second problem. Theres my marked queen running about and laying above the QX in another hive. Should be easy to sort out if we have some nice weather.

Its never simple eh.

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## Jon

They usually repair queen cells as long as the larva is not damaged. You have to be careful to make sure the larvae are all removed if you are removing queen cells for whatever reason as they can rebuild a cell from the base if a larva is intact in its pool of jelly.

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## Bridget

Funny day.  Cold then the sun came out and so did the bees.  We repaired the bee house roof and then watched bees sunning themselves.  I seem to remember someone saying here that it was the young bees doing some orientation.  Then saw two bees clearing out a half formed larvae.  Any reason for this?






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## drumgerry

Just good hygienic behaviour Bridget - a good thing!  I think it's a pupa though and the bees spotted something they didn't like about it

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## Jon

The abdomen looks too short, maybe a virus damaged pupa.

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## drumgerry

Speaking of viruses I was helping an older beekeeper this week who hadn't been through his bees since the autumn and who hadn't treated for varroa either then or midwinter.  On every frame there were drones and workers with DWV - more than I've ever seen before.  In my 11 years of beekeeping I could probably count on my two hands the numbers of bees with DWV I've seen.  This was on a different scale and quite shocking.  The colony appeared otherwise healthy (apart from every comb being old and black) and was bursting with bees - I told him it might collapse from the varroa load later in the year if nothing was done.  He is not on the web so I've had to order some MAQS for him and we'll be treating them this weekend - never used that before so should be interesting.  Hoping to persuade him to burn a lot of his old black combs (he has a lot from old dead colonies) and do a Bailey comb change on his colony.  I'm thinking that's not going to have an appreciable effect on the varroa as there's no brood break but will be beneficial in terms of virus/disease.

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## Bridget

> Just good hygienic behaviour Bridget - a good thing!  I think it's a pupa though and the bees spotted something they didn't like about it


Yeh sorry pupa!  I knew that really!


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## gavin

I've just performed my first artificial swarm of the year.  Three novices joined me today and I was keen to show them their first drones amongst other things.  No drones at all in the first four.  Despite the cool breeze we tried one more - which had not just drones but drawn queen cells 2-3 days from sealing.  

This is a rural site where swarm preparations often start 2-3 weeks from now.

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## snimmo243

We checked our bees today one colony had loads of Queen cups  and unripe honey in every frame  of the super. It has been quite cold here so I'm not convinced it will  be from our, maybe dandelion?

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## gavin

The bees were going mad for OSR at lunchtime here even though it was cool.  Some colonies had masses returning with the characteristic yellow face.

When I say mad, of course I mean very enthusiastic rather than the neonic-inspired mad  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## snimmo243

Hi gavin  does the temperature not need to be higher for the osr to produce nectar?  Our bees are bringing in three different pollens just now, cream,  bright yellow and a duller yellow, no yellow coupons though!

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## gavin

I seem to recall seeing bees foraging on rape in cool conditions before, yet most years they don't seem to.  Perhaps they're taking advantage of a slow secretion of nectar over a longer period of time, now available to them as it warms a little?  This spring we've had lots of sun, and recently lots of rain which will help.

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## Jon

I know of several swarms in the greater Belfast area in the last week.
A lot of people have huge colonies already and these will swarm if not carefully managed.
I have all my queens clipped now so they wont get far should I miss a queen cell.

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## lindsay s

Hi all Im still out there but I havent been on this forum for the last six months so Ive a lot of catching up to do. A bad case of Bee Fever has brought me back. I still have my bees and you will get an update soon. 
Lindsay

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## Jon

Good to get an update from the outer limits!

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## Trog

Glad you still have your bees, Lindsay.  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

Last years news. 
I ended up with 173lbs of honey from 6 producing colonies which was more than I expected considering our weather. I was very pleased with the quality and I could have sold it three times over. I went into winter with eight colonies, six full strength and two nucs on seven frames and a dummy in standard brood boxes. Three colonies had been on open mesh floors but I replaced them with wooden ones. Winter 2013/14 was wet and windy apart from two days of snow.
This years news.
The 5th of April was the first time I managed to carry out a quick inspection.  All of the floors were cleaned and I found a few of them very damp. Seven colonies had brood and one colony was queenless. The queenless colony was united with one of the nucs a few days later (newspaper method). Three colonies that were low on stores were given a little feed of syrup. The weather was better for my next inspection so I removed quite a few old and mouldy combs from the hives. 
Yesterdays news.
The day was dull windy and 12⁰c but the apiary needed attention so I just had just had to get on with it, the forecast for the rest of the week showed no signs of improvement. My strongest hive has 6½ frames of brood and the rest have 4 to 5 frames of brood apart from one nuc. The nuc has three small brood patches and barely enough bees to keep it covered. This nuc had been united with my queenless colony but unfortunately most of the old bees left and boosted the nearest hive to their old location which just happened to be my strongest hive (beginners please take note uniting colonies doesnt always work). It was worth a try anyway and I m not going to give up on the nuc just yet. There is an abundance of dandelions out at the moment and the new comb thats being built has quite a yellow tinge to it. I for one am glad to see the dandelions and they play a major part in my colonies spring build up.

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## Jon

Lindsay. I presume your bees are native or at least native type that far north.

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## lindsay s

> Lindsay. I presume your bees are native or at least native type that far north.


Hello Jon
The quick answer is yes and no. Jimbo was kind enough to test samples from 3 of my colonies in August 2011. The results were 88%amm, 94%amm and the other sample was hybrid. I will post more details on the makeup of our bees once Ive made a few enquiries.
As far as colony strength goes Ive just been speaking to another beekeeper and her bees are at the same stage as mine. We try to have our bees at full strength by early June just in time for the white clover. There is no June gap up here.

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## nemphlar

I was told by a recent visitor that the Orkney bees have learned to fly below the walls, I'd love to have seen that

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## prakel

In light of the recent bee theft threads, here's a report of some that have actually been found

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news...where-27283519

and we keep hearing how cheap bees are on the Continent!

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## HJBee

Today's news indeed, Shame article doesn't cover off likelihood of them actually crossing the Channel 
Shared from Sky News: 'Killer' Asian Hornet Could Threaten Honey Bees http://news.sky.com/story/1258679

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## gavin

The folk in the Scottish Government/SASA would like to start monitoring with traps, especially at sites where bulk transport might bring them straight in.  I was sceptical, but they are right of course.

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## Jimbo

Yah! reached another milestone in my beekeeping. Been practicing picking up the queen and clipping her wing. In the past just used a crown of thorns but is a bit of a faff. After watching Andrew Abrahams picking up queens and marking/clipping them last year thought it was about time I gave it a go. Did 4 queens today and going to do another 5 tomorrow. The secret is for you not to hold your breath and breath in and out normally!

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## fatshark

Another pretty grotty day here. Good points about the weather we're getting here is that swarming is delayed - I went through three strong colonies, all had sealed queen cells but the queen was present in all of them (even the unclipped ones). I reckon they're waiting for a break in the weather before doing a bunk. However, it wasn't a good day to run a practical queen rearing course - dodging showers and searching for graftable larvae in poor light and low temperatures. 

Predicted to be 11 centigrade tomorrow when I'll be checking the grafts …

On a more positive note. Those on the queen rearing course seemed to enjoy themselves; all got the hang of grafting, got practical experience of different types of grafting tools and can (I hope) make sense of the small amount of extra kit they'll be needing in due course.

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## Bridget

Bumble bees amongst the blaeberries today. There were also tiny white flowers on the cow berries and tufted owlets sitting on a log pile waiting for a feed from Mum.  So vulnerable to buzzards and pine marten so hope they survive


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## HJBee

Kilbarchan Beekeepers had our seasonal Apairy visit today at one of Ian Craig's sites. Great visit despite the weather, well attended by members and prospective Beekeepers alike.

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## gavin

> Kilbarchan Beekeepers had our seasonal Apairy visit today at one of Ian Craig's sites.


I want that man's bee suit for the Cup Final next Saturday!!!

I have beekeeping stuff in a Lidl bag too (cheapskates that we are).

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## EmsE

Are you sure? It generally has lots of bees 'inside' the veil too lol.

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## gavin

:Big Grin: 

What, our Ian's bees - misbehave?!

I was helping a friend who is away at the moment this afternoon and ended up with bees inside my trousers.  Which is worse - veil or trousers?!

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## Bumble

> I was helping a friend who is away at the moment this afternoon and ended up with bees inside my trousers.  Which is worse - veil or trousers?!


I can't say which is worse, but it can be quite amusing to watch the reaction when either happens, more especially when the person concerned is wearing shorts beneath their suit.

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## gavin

Amusing?!!! 

I'm a Scotsman, remember, so when I get a full suit rather than a simple jacket you know what it will be like under the suit! 

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## Paul

> I can't say which is worse, but it can be quite amusing to watch the reaction when either happens, more especially when the person concerned is wearing shorts beneath their suit.


So nobody has yet tried Beekeeping in a Kilt? No need for a Nuc box if your wearing your own personal Skep  :Big Grin:

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## snimmo243

> So nobody has yet tried Beekeeping in a Kilt? No need for a Nuc box if your wearing your own personal Skep


If you saw what happened when I got stung on the heid there's no way I'm risking a kilt! :$

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## Calum

been stung on the todger - wasnt that bad.. Tip of the nose is worse if you can imagine that!

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## drumgerry

Dare I ask how a bee happened to be in that vicinity?!!  Probably illegal however it happened!

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## Jon

Probably why he did a runner to Germany!

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## Calum

> Dare I ask how a bee happened to be in that vicinity?!!  Probably illegal however it happened!


One balmy evening in Germany, we transported some bees to a new site, by the time they got there it was dark...
It had been a long drive, I was gasping for a pee...
But as ever bees first, we unloaded & I pulled out the fabric we had stuffed in the entrances to keep the bees in, so they would get a breath of fresh air. Then I went to relieve myself in a bush. A night-fighter got me! Wasnt easy to get the prick out of my **** in the dark, but I was well motivated.

The wife was very impressed, for a while. 

Still not as bad as a sting just inside the rim of the nostril!

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## Jon

> I want that man's bee suit for the Cup Final next Saturday!!!
> 
> I have beekeeping stuff in a Lidl bag too (cheapskates that we are).


Too many Lidl shills on this forum!

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## drumgerry

Just got confirmation that I can begin putting hives beside a local well known castle and next to their walled garden.  Heaving with lime trees and right below a rather large managed heather moor.  I am well pleased to say the least!!

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## greengumbo

Trials and tribs......my queenless hive is no more queenless ! The queencells that resulted from a cut out of eggs from my best AMM colony have yielded a queen. Three torn down and empty and 1 that had hatched. I even managed to spot the virgin running about. Fantastic. Hopefully this weather will stay for her to get mated. She was not huge but I guess that will change ?

As for my 2 big hives.....lets just say they are about to swarm (queen cells maybe 3 days from capping) and I don't have time to do much this week  :Frown:

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## biggus

Not sure if this is the best place for general beekeeping questions, but dear, learned members of SBAI, if you will indulge a question from someone well south of the border, here goes.

My best and strongest colony is mystifying me by nether swarming nor continuing to build up and I am wondering if the queen is running out of steam. It overwintered in double Paynes poly national broods (and survived being blown over twice in the storms!) I added a super early April as they were doing so well. I had no excluder handy and they pretty quickly filled the super with wall to wall drone brood. Not crazy popcorn, but whole frames of lovely even, pale coloured drone brood. I eventually added a second super above an excluder which is now a bit less than half full. My bees at this apiary are in the middle of forest and heath, so don't bring in much OSR.

Meanwhile in the lower boxes the bees have started backfilling the brood nest with stores and the brood areas have become rather scattered with quite a lot of drone round the edges and sometimes right across. There are several frames of perfect, capped worker brood, and a few areas with eggs and young brood.

The workforce is contented, gentle and motivated. There are, however, so many drones flying in and out as to make the hive clearly audible from 30ft away. It did occur to me that maybe I had absent mindedly put drone foundation in that super without an excluder, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Some of the combs on the super have both worker and drone brood, but in consistent, even patches.


The thing is, I have checked them regularly and there is no sign of queen cells, barely even a cup. Has this colony just decided to make drones instead of having swarms (hence them drawing out drone comb off worker foundation)? Or is the queen conking out? 

If it comes to it, is there a lazy way of requeening without finding her? Tis a pain searching 30 frames and 3 boxes and my success rate is typically low.

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## Rosie

I find that a protected queen cell works almost every time.  In fact the only time it has ever failed me was at the end of a season.

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## fatshark

Grafting tomorrow … went down this evening to set up the Ben Harden box. Oh dear … looks like they've tried to swarm. Clipped queen so shouldn't be too far away. A few hundred bees clustered under the floor. Removed three heavy supers, went through the box. Removed the super frame with loads of brace comb, sliced the latter off and dropped the super frame by the edge of the hivestand. Sure enough, found a couple of capped queen cells. Also found two open charged ones, so knocked everything else back. No shortage of bees (actually it was packed) so reckon I'll use it to generate some queen cells after all … dumped the bees from under the floor back into the hive.

Set up the Ben Harden upper box. Disappeared off to the other end of the apiary and went through the colony I'll be grafting from. All good. Checked a couple of nucs and a bait hive (nada … looks like the queen in the latter hasn't returned from the mating flight. Damn).

Went to clear up and pack the car. Finally remember the super frame dropped by the hive stand. Went back for it. One bee walking around on it. The queen. Or at least, a queen  :Smile:  Not entirely sure she's the original as the wing didn't look clipped, but it was getting pretty dark by now. 

Lifted her up to the landing board and she sauntered in calm as anything … good times.

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## greengumbo

> Grafting tomorrow  went down this evening to set up the Ben Harden box. Oh dear  looks like they've tried to swarm. Clipped queen so shouldn't be too far away. A few hundred bees clustered under the floor. Removed three heavy supers, went through the box. Removed the super frame with loads of brace comb, sliced the latter off and dropped the super frame by the edge of the hivestand. Sure enough, found a couple of capped queen cells. Also found two open charged ones, so knocked everything else back. No shortage of bees (actually it was packed) so reckon I'll use it to generate some queen cells after all  dumped the bees from under the floor back into the hive.
> 
> Set up the Ben Harden upper box. Disappeared off to the other end of the apiary and went through the colony I'll be grafting from. All good. Checked a couple of nucs and a bait hive (nada  looks like the queen in the latter hasn't returned from the mating flight. Damn).
> 
> Went to clear up and pack the car. Finally remember the super frame dropped by the hive stand. Went back for it. One bee walking around on it. The queen. Or at least, a queen  Not entirely sure she's the original as the wing didn't look clipped, but it was getting pretty dark by now. 
> 
> Lifted her up to the landing board and she sauntered in calm as anything  good times.


Your beekeeping sounds as calm as mine is panicky. I've no time to do anything at the moment so just hoping for no swarms and if they do that I find them / bait hive them.

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## Calum

After two weeks of bad weather, there will be a bunch of swarms this weekend...
I don't think I'll be worried by it.
My rule of thumb is 1 frame of capped brood = two frames of bees. If the colony is full I need to remove capped brood and bees (as this makes work for the colony - drawing out comb, feeding larve) so if my brood chamber is full of bees, and my super is decently populated, I need to remove brood to make nucs (this also reduces varroa load as most are in brood). Two frames capped + their bees, 1 frame open brood with young larve and the bees on it + bees shook from two frames of larve (young bees) are enough for a starter. They dont need to be removed from the bee stand. This is usually enough to keep the colony occupied for three weeks or so. Giving them an extra drone frame to work on helps dampen  too. But this is for carnica that excel on two brood boxes.
This is a preventative measure I am doing twice a season per colony - no need for clipped wings or (illegal in germany) bait hives.

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## greengumbo

> After two weeks of bad weather, there will be a bunch of swarms this weekend...
> I don't think I'll be worried by it.
> My rule of thumb is 1 frame of capped brood = two frames of bees. If the colony is full I need to remove capped brood and bees (as this makes work for the colony - drawing out comb, feeding larve) so if my brood chamber is full of bees, and my super is decently populated, I need to remove brood to make nucs (this also reduces varroa load as most are in brood). Two frames capped + their bees, 1 frame open brood with young larve and the bees on it + bees shook from two frames of larve (young bees) are enough for a starter. They dont need to be removed from the bee stand. This is usually enough to keep the colony occupied for three weeks or so. Giving them an extra drone frame to work on helps dampen  too. But this is for carnica that excel on two brood boxes.
> This is a preventative measure I am doing twice a season per colony - no need for clipped wings or (illegal in germany) bait hives.


Illegal in Germany ? Interesting. Whats the rational ? 

I have a bait hive up at work that had scouts all over it today - lose a swarm at home....gain a swarm at work. Great watching the scouts analyse the dimensions and move around it in a linear manner.

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## drumgerry

It does seem a bit draconian!  I have 3 bait hives set up with a mix of frames with soon for the bonfire comb and foundation.  Bees are not so thick on the ground around here so it's not every year I catch a swarm.

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## Trog

A swarm went window-shopping in London today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-27444845

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## greengumbo

One of my artificial swarms failed spectacularly and they isolated the Queen who died. Other one was fine but got them just in time, heaps of sealed qcs , no eggs and the queen looking super svelt ready to go. Have started grafting from my native stocks so will have a look tomorrow to see what's what.

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## snimmo243

I've just got in after a back shift and some night time beekeeping! I met my beekeeping compadre at 1 am to feed the splits we made at the weekend (no robbing here) all went well, it was a lovely night. we decided to have a look at our bait hive as there was a lot of interest in it on Saturday and we found a swarm had moved in  :Big Grin:

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## lindsay s

Cold and miserable and thats just me, Im sure my bees are feeling a lot worse. Weve had two days of fog followed by three days of rain and cold biting northerly winds. The forecast for this weekend is not much better. Im sure the colonies will be ignoring the foundation that needs to be drawn and rapidly using up their stores. Summer was good while it lasted (3 days last week) and I suppose theres always next year to look forward to.

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## Bumble

Went to help a friend collect a wet swarm from a tree in their apiary the other day, and got the job of going up the ladder. Not a big ladder, I hasten to add, I don't do heights! When I went to hold the skep beneath the cluster the elastic thumb loop broke on one sleeve, the sleeve pulled slightly back down my arm leaving just enough space for one obliging bee to crawl inside the glove, sting my hand and die. I thought nothing more of it until the following morning, but woke up with a badly swollen hand and forearm with red tracks running up to the armpit.

Antibiotics are marvellous!  :Smile:  The red tracks have gone and my arm no longer resembles the Michelin Man.

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## Feckless Drone

The news in Oz from a friend of mine is all about honey rationing in Sydney supermarkets and curtailing exports. The crisis is the drought and record high temperatures not neonics or CCD. Here is a link to a reasonable, well informed newspaper article (http://www.smh.com.au/business/sweet...516-38feh.html).  I notice 3 or 4 government enquiries there into the state of the bee industry and really trying to address issue of keeping Varroa out. There is an opportunity here - since Oz has had to curtail exports in particular to China then our bee farmers might consider promoting their products to that market.
Surely heather honey would hit the mark!

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## prakel

A short video from Martin Cade of the Portland Bird Observatory showing a gang of bee-eaters who are paying us a visit at present.

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## prakel

"There's definitely a queen mating apiary around here somewhere...."

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## greengumbo

> Trials and tribs......my queenless hive is no more queenless ! The queencells that resulted from a cut out of eggs from my best AMM colony have yielded a queen. Three torn down and empty and 1 that had hatched. I even managed to spot the virgin running about. Fantastic. Hopefully this weather will stay for her to get mated. She was not huge but I guess that will change ?
> 
> As for my 2 big hives.....lets just say they are about to swarm (queen cells maybe 3 days from capping) and I don't have time to do much this week


Checked the hive with the virgin quickly today as its been 2 weeks since I saw her running about. Nice patch of eggs that look about 3 days old and saw her majesty looking nice and plump. Great stuff.

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## lindsay s

> I’m sure the colonies will be ignoring the foundation that needs to be drawn and rapidly using up their stores.


I went through the hives today after eight days of cold damp weather and my above quote was spot on. Most of the colonies are OK for pollen but they have very little nectar coming in or honey stored. Laying is almost at a standstill with very little open brood and in two colonies chalk brood has increased dramatically. Only two colonies have a super and my weak over wintered nuc has been written off, it will be united tomorrow. By the way Jon I found only two queen cups between seven colonies.

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## gavin

> "There's definitely a queen mating apiary around here somewhere...."


Love the synchronised balancing act.  Cracking birds, I'm green with envy.  I saw some (not necessarily the same species) in Tamil Nadu a few years ago.

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## Jon

I used to see them in the summer for the couple of years I lived in Andalucia.
The other bird I loved from that era was the Hoopoe.

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## snimmo243

I'm sure there was something in the paper a couple of weeks ago about a hoopoe being spotted in peebles! 
I like dippers

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## Bumble

> A short video from Martin Cade of the Portland Bird Observatory showing a gang of bee-eaters who are paying us a visit at present.


Do you have any idea if they're just passing through or if they might stay for the summer?

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## prakel

Not totally sure, they tricked us the other day by appearing to be heading off into the channel but have made a reappearance today. Should be able to have a word with the bird guy when he's not too busy as we put bees on some of the cover crop land that they manage at different times. We've now acquired a (solitary?) Honey Buzzard and the rain's stopped so the cabin fever has passed too!

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## HJBee

If you have done a A/S and it has failed due to the QC not hatching, and the original hive Queen did a runner (or was ejected), and you have 2 queenless colonies with one with emergency QC on a frame, both splits have no eggs, no queen - would you unite now in anticipation of what hatches in the next day or so. Or would you keep them both queenless? I made a decision last night to unite and it's been worrying me since. If it remains queen less, would putting a frame of eggs from a nearby colony be the next stage as there is no spare queen stock immediately available, or would introducing a sealed QC on a frame of sealed brood be best, if it can be sourced? H

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## gavin

What to do with a combined unit with one Q cell? Have a quick peek around hatching time (and try not to get them too riled). Has the cell hatched? If not is it about to hatch and is it showing that darkening and roughening of the tip in anticipation of hatching? All will be well. Best leave them in peace for about three weeks. You're unlikely to see anything until then, and going in risks them attacking the queen and risks you interfering during mating flights. You want them settled and quiet, calling back their queen while she's out - not fending off someone with smoke and nitrile gloves and changing any landmarks she may have noticed on her way out!

Of course I don't practice what I preach and will tinker (gently) sometimes but I do try to give them at least a fortnight to get to know their new queen and let her find her bearings before going in.

Quite often I split off a nuc with one of the Q cells so that there is a spare available if needed.  You need to make sure that all stay warm though.

Yes, the egg test could be worth doing on the queenless half to test whether it really is queenless, and, if it is a strong unit, raise another.

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## HJBee

Hatching time should be today or tomorrow latest or if they are duff too (probably due to chilling as it was an emergency artificial swarm split done in the peeing rain as the owner was going on holiday the next morning).

So have a peek tomorrow night at the QC see if hatched, if not introduce a frame of eggs and remove the frame with the dud emergency cells?

Ta Gav

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## gavin

No problem!

I'd be surprised if the queen cells are dud.  As long as there were plenty of bees to cover them once you closed the hive they'll be fine.  It is when you have a lot of bees abandoning the split with the Q cell that it can get chilled.

But if it is cold, ignored and unloved, with no sign of the bees preparing the cell to hatch, then eggs are worth trying.

G.

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## HJBee

Think as they were emergency cells, queen had gone, they could be anything! Time will tell tomorrow!

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## gavin

Here are three points to bear in mind when assessing failed queen cells in splits.

1.  Were there too few bees to keep the cell warm?  Chilling is possible, try to avoid having too many bees going home.  If the box isn't in a position to catch flying bees on their way home, shake extra young ones in, and/or seal them in for a few days.

2.  Might there have been a virgin on the loose already?  Bear in mind that the pupa could have been already killed.

3.  Is the tip of the apparently failed cell darker and roughened?  If so, give the tip a nudge with your hive tool.  The hatch cut by the queen on her way out sometimes gets re-affixed.

Been there, done them all!  Thankfully I did remember about no. 3 on Sunday.

G.

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## HJBee

They should have hatched yesterday / today if Queen cell as I saw them sealed last Tue. If not am assuming it's just worker /drone in the cells or failed, but will check. These had plenty of bees, but think they were done post queenie doing one or being done in. The cell in the Nuc from the split I think got chilled, we opened it up after 13 days, small queen post pupae and formed, solidified jelly in the bottom of the cell.

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## HJBee

Yay! One hatched QC tonight when we did a wee peek, so all put back together and will be left for a few weeks while she hopefully mates and starts laying. All is back to how it was pre swarm instincts, no bees lost apart from a okish queen.

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## nemphlar

Lost a large swarm with a VQ, had gone through them last week and thought I'd left them with single cell, queen removed. Thats the second year I've left a large colony with a cell, note to self under no circumstances leave a big colony to sort itself out. Although on the up side it had a low varroa count and may survive as a feral for a wee while if nobody caught it.

----------


## JohnnyD

Is that longbenton as in Newcastle a Upon Tyne?

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## Jon

> note to self under no circumstances leave a big colony to sort itself out.


I know what you mean. I think the same way.
You can lose a swarm or if the queen gets lost on a mating flight you can end up with a large colony of very aggressive bees.
requeening by combining a queenless colony with a nuc which has a mated queen is tried and trusted.

----------


## brothermoo

I have 2 colonies now from an AS split which I checked yesterday fr the first time in a month (couldn't be helped) and no laying queen in either. Whether or not there a lre virgins yet to lay or mating was poor or even a lost queen I dont know. Im thinking if splitting the whole lot down to loads of mating nucs.. not rushing into anything either!

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## nemphlar

I've always found VQ mating in a full brood box frustrating, a mated queen from a nuc/apidea is always favourite, but like everything timing is the key and having new season mated queens prior to swarming time is tight, particularly this year. I've got 3 nucs to check for laying today and 4 apideas got a due cell today, so hope fully keep the messing about to minimum.
Part of my problem was not having enough supers, had to knock the cobwebs of some that have been stacked for years

----------


## HJBee

All types of bees were enjoying the alliums today

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## GRIZZLY

Extracted 6 supers of rape honey yesterday, - all of which was completely capped. I was somewhat surprised that not a single comb had any set honey in it unlike in past years  when the combs were nearly solid. I don't know if anyone else has had similar findings ? I ended up with 135 pounds from 3 hives.

----------


## Black Comb

Well I should have extracted some spring honey. A check today reveals we are well into the June gap and the supers are much lighter than 10 days ago. The weather in the interim has been reasonably good.
It's been perfect foraging weather today but not many were flying.

----------


## fatshark

With the amount of rain we've had something is obviously doing well as colonies are starting to collect nectar again. Last w/e they were starving, now the brood frames are dripping with fresh nectar. I've no idea what it's from but will have to rush round putting some supers on this w/e. 

Since yesterday my Ben Harden setup has built brace comb between several cells which again probably reflects that the flow has started again. I'd been feeding them a bit before then.

About 75% of my OSR crop was capped, and almost none of it was solid. I store the supers stacked on my honey warming cabinet for a few days before extracting.

Quick peak in a couple of suspected Q- colonies this evening and delighted to find eggs in both. A good end to the week.

----------


## HJBee

Today's big news is I've passed my Basic Beemaster Exam woohoo. Thanks in the main to all the lessons (good, bad and downright hilarious) & hours of fun with EmsE. 👍👍

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## crabbitdave

> Today's big news is I've passed my Basic Beemaster Exam woohoo. Thanks in the main to all the lessons (good, bad and downright hilarious) & hours of fun with EmsE. 👍👍


Well done, it's always good to see something for all the hard work you do  :Smile: 


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## HJBee

Ta v muchly  😊

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## GRIZZLY

Herself passed her beemaster this week as well - now got a qualified assistant in the beeyard.

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## Bumble

Congratulations, and well done, to all the newly qualified Basic Beemasters.

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## Bridget

I haven't heard yet.  Perhaps it's because I live so far north and the postie has not got here yet.  (Number 1 essential requirement to becoming a beekeeper .....optimism.)


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## drumgerry

When I sat mine a few years back I was told there and then what the result was.  Did your examiner say you'd get your result by post Bridget?

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## Bridget

Yes Drumgerry, she said it needed to be invigilated.


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## HJBee

I got told mine then & there to be followed up with a proper certificate. H

----------


## GRIZZLY

> I got told mine then & there to be followed up with a proper certificate. H


Yes - so was the wife.

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## Bridget

Oh dear :0(


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## Easy beesy

Candidates in England not told on the day. Results notified later and certificates sent to County Exam secretary for distribution

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## Bridget

Beautiful her today and bees still flying at 9pm in temps of 22 degrees.  No lack of nectar here- we've masses of clover and then what did I see today in a sheltered spot



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## Bridget

Ants making a nest on the poly crown board.  Thought I'd got rid of them and they came back in 4 hours with more eggs.  How can I get rid of them without insecticide?  No sign of an ant run they have come up into the bees house from underneath I think.  Was told cinnamon powder was good and happily have a pile of the stuff after husband gave up on the honey/cinnamon paste cure for arthritis! Any other ideas.


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## Bridget

Ants and eggs on crownboard


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## GRIZZLY

Try a daily vacuum with a vacuum cleaner - the ants will give up after a while.

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## greengumbo

> Ants and eggs on crownboard
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hive stand feet in buckets / trays of water ?

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## Bridget

> Hive stand feet in buckets / trays of water ?


Can do that as the hives stand on a bench in the bee house that has legs that goes through the floor so the hives don't vibrate when I walk around the bee house.  I'll keep hoovering them away and the cinnamon is also helping.
Thanks


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## greengumbo

Vaseline or similar round the edges ? 

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## madasafish

Garden centres sell sticky tapes for apple trees - to catch moths grubs..

I would use washing line made of rope impregnated with old engine oil:  kills all known insects..

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## Bridget

Including my bees- do nt forget they are in a bee house so on inspection they are flying round inside for a bit though it only takes a few minutes for them to clear out once the lid is back on.


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## drumgerry

Spent the weekend down in Dumfries-shire being taught II by Michael Collier.  Now there's a man with some stories to tell!  Brilliant to see and try the whole process from beginning to end.  Loads of stuff the Cobey video doesn't even mention.  Learned about the limitations of the instrument I bought (Schley with fixed posts) but working with Michael to solve that problem.  Going to need to practice lots and lots to get even semi competent.  

Brilliant weekend and highly recommended.  Michael is a top guy and if you're buying kit get it from him and take advantage of the great advice he'll give you.

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## fatshark

Don't you just love the summer? Blackberry is full on here. Just back from the apiary to check grafts have taken. The half dozen colonies are all contentedly humming away evaporating off the excess water from the 2-3 supers each has. It's a great sound  :Big Grin: 

PS I know 'contentedly' is anthropomorphising and that's it's really frantic in the hive.

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## greengumbo

Went to check the apiary........police armed response unit doing drills with machine guns 20m from hives. Wee bit put out the security guard didn't mention it as I drove into the site.

Hopefully the hives wont be riddled with bullets when I go back tommorrow. Ho hum.

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## gavin

Wow!  Don't suppose you managed to sneak a picture?   :Smile:

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## greengumbo

> Wow!  Don't suppose you managed to sneak a picture?


I was too busy reversing at speed (well as much speed as my car can muster) !

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## greengumbo

> I was too busy reversing at speed (well as much speed as my car can muster) !


Tried again today and was told to just carry on at the hives. Was fairly entertaining to be looking at frames whilst hearing constant "stop police, put your hands where I can see them GET OUT THE CAR!!" every ten minutes as they all had a go at stopping terrorists.

Bees were grand with it.

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## gavin

> Tried again today and was told to just carry on at the hives. Was fairly entertaining to be looking at frames whilst hearing constant "stop police, put your hands where I can see them GET OUT THE CAR!!" every ten minutes as they all had a go at stopping terrorists.
> 
> Bees were grand with it.


No bullet holes then?  I used to have a super with air rifle pellets embedded in it.  Long before my time, I got it secondhand.

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## GRIZZLY

Back off to Colonsay today. Keeping everything crossed for a bit better weather. Andrew recons he hasn't had the weather this year - overcast and sea mist.

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## gavin

> Back off to Colonsay today. Keeping everything crossed for a bit better weather. Andrew recons he hasn't had the weather this year - overcast and sea mist.


Give him warm greetings from his supporters on SBAi!  Some of his stock will be contributing to the collaborative breeding effort we've started in east central Scotland.

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## Trog

Weather's perfect on the west coast just now ... and I'm on the East Coast for the Portsoy trad boat festival and it's cold and windy ... and going to be wet tomorrow  :Frown:

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## gavin

> Weather's perfect on the west coast just now ... and I'm on the East Coast for the Portsoy trad boat festival and it's cold and windy ... and going to be wet tomorrow


The bees are hungry and tetchy in this bit of the east.  I squirrelled away a box full of OSR deep frames ('for the winter') and I've just put them all out into 3-5 frame nucs to keep them going until the weather and forage improves.

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## Bridget

Reporting back on the ants setting up home on the crown board - no sign since I scattered cinnamon on it. Result


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## Bridget

Up date - cinnamon on the crown board and not a ant seen since - Result.  And I was rung up on Thursday and told I had passed my basic bee masters so a second result!


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## drumgerry

Great news on both fronts Bridget - well done!!

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## HJBee

Great news, 2 colonies that  failed Artificial swarm splits, then reunited, have lovely eggs and larvae in them - both after introducing a frame of eggs. Well chuffed. Also my first nuc has a hatched queen cell. A good day indeed.

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## Feckless Drone

On the BBC web site - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28159243

for a picture of the Dundee Utd smock wearing SBA legend in action. Any SBAi members in the Kilbarchan area want to own up to the swarm?
I can honestly say - not mine!

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## gavin

I'm sure many of us have used that hand-on-hip 'Hmnnnn ... is she in the box?' posture!

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## HJBee

Not mine either, will go to a good home no doubt. The man needs to get a new suit to stay incognito doesn't he! 😉

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## prakel

Anyone know who this guy is?

SAM_3628.jpg

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## GRIZZLY

Looks like a ladybird larva.

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## prakel

Thanks Grizzly. 

Can find some odd things in bee hives!

SAM_3643.jpg

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## greengumbo

Quickie - I'm going to try re-house a colony of bees that has taken up residence in someones outbuilding about 1.5 hours drive away from my house. What time of day is it best to go and do this ? I don't really want to make 2 journeys so was thinking just go and try it. Bring frames and wire in case I need to put wild comb into them. Put the whole lot in a travel nuc and get back.

What do you experts think ? Advice ?

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## gavin

Only just seen this.  If it is a simple job then now-ish as bees will need to fly and be gathered up by fanning workers into the travelling box ... then you'd like the great majority at home before you uplift.

So I'd reckon about an hour and a half before a major thunderstorm should be ideal!

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## Calum

I want one....

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## HJBee

> I want one....


I came, I saw, I bought!

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## GRIZZLY

Just installed 4 of Jon G's black queens and am anxiously waiting to  see they're accepted by the splits they're in. I'm in the process of converting all of my colonies (21) to amm.  just a case now of eliminating all the carniolans before the end of the year.

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## Jon

Good luck with the queens. Fingers crossed for a safe introduction.

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## GRIZZLY

It looks as though the splits have accepted the Q's - nice and quiet and have lost the queenless roar. I'll now leave them alone for a week or so. Thanks Jon for your quick service. I'll be in touch again soon.

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## prakel

Mating apiary trashed by badgers.

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## alancooper

Mmmmmm - my beekeeping comment is sympathetic but I can not suggest what you might do. Will your post get a response to the badger eradication issue?

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## prakel

In a location managed by an environmental group on an 'almost' island where there are probably less than three cows I doubt that the local community will be rushing to cull badgers on my behalf, to be honest. Not that I'd want them to. 

I'll just have to buy some telegraph poles this winter and mount the mating nucs on them (cut down to an appropriate height of course). One thing for sure, once they start on hives they're not inclined to stop -it's all in their name...

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## gavin

> Mating apiary trashed by badgers.


Sorry to hear that.  Ours is fairly secure thanks to the efforts of colleagues rather than me.  Drone colonies are behind a fence and mating nucs are up high on posts.  We were fearing sheep trashing rather than badgers.  The guys even built a stile so that the more corpulent bee breeder (that'll be me then) can get over in relative safety.

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## prakel

Jon's post on this other thread has got me thinking. I've never come across fox damage to hives myself and hadn't considered it as a possibility. Having seen badger damage in the past that was my initial conclusion. What ever the cause, I have no plans to voluntarily relinquish what's proving to be a superb apiary.

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## lindsay s

It must be disappointing to have all your hard work undone Parkel and I dont mean to poke fun but here are some tips for next year. I especially like the photo with the razor wire.
http://honeybadger.com/hive.html

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## prakel

> It must be disappointing to have all your hard work undone Parkel and I don’t mean to poke fun but here are some tips for next year. I especially like the photo with the razor wire.
> http://honeybadger.com/hive.html


Thanks, that actually looks like quite a good read which I'll look at properly this evening -some of the options may be easier and cheaper than digging in tele poles.

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## Jon

Did you lose much stuff?
I had some chewed by rats over winter but the Apideas are still usable albeit with a few teeth marks.

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## GRIZZLY

> Did you lose much stuff?
> I had some chewed by rats over winter but the Apideas are still usable albeit with a few teeth marks.


That's Andrews problem on Colonsay - they eradicated all their feral cats and ended up with a large population of rats. A lot of his apideas have corners removed plus large holes.

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## prakel

A handful of newly mated queens lost so far as well as several combs eaten from the frames but not too much heavy damage to the boxes themselves. A knock-on problem is that the exposed combs seem to have attracted every wasp in the County which are now badgering(!) the other colonies. Been relocating stuff today but still some on the site which we probably won't be able to move for a couple of days now...so more damage tonight I expect.  

My beekeeping adventure has suffered far worse than this in the past, it's just so annoying having secured such a good site to now find that we're under attack from the local wildlife. 

Our Lyson boxes had some very heavy rat damage in Dec 2012 but they're still going strong although we just noticed that a couple are now sporting some impressive claw slashes.

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## lindsay s

Sorry Parkel   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLlYpuaPLc

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## prakel

One new queen we saved (sneaking suspicion that some may have actually absconded, hard to tell with bees hanging around comb remnants which are strewn all over the place).

SAM_4176.jpgSAM_4189.jpgSAM_4198.jpg

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## Little_John

> Thanks, that actually looks like quite a good read which I'll look at properly this evening -some of the options may be easier and cheaper than digging in tele poles.


Another option might be an electric fence of course - netting perhaps rather than wire ? (depending on the size of the site) - most animals are deterred once they've had a jolt or two.

LJ

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## prakel

> Another option might be an electric fence of course - netting perhaps rather than wire ? (depending on the size of the site) - most animals are deterred once they've had a jolt or two.
> 
> LJ


I have been giving some thought to the possibility of electrics but think that the land manager may well have issues because of the way that they use the rest of the site. I need to look into the matter though. 

I have been offered another site nearby as a replacement but it's nowhere near as sheltered from the elements or casual spectators and might be prone to the same problem anyway. Another possibility going through my mind is to put in some stands built from scaffolding which the hives can be strapped to -it seems to me that the culprit likes to drag the combs away from the main body of the colony to eat in relative comfort, so stopping them moving the hive may be sufficient. Is that just wishful thinking?

Oh, and thanks to Lindsay s for the youtube link!

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## Castor

I have had a badger problem in the past.
Large calibre machine gun and explosives. The only way.

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## Little_John

> Another possibility going through my mind is to put in some stands built from scaffolding which the hives can be strapped to ...


I think the use of scaffolding poles would be a great idea - either as single poles hammered into the ground, as per that article - or as frames made to support long lengths of poles upon which several boxes could then be mounted securely. And if longer poles than necessary were used to construct the base of the supporting frames, then the footprint of those bases would be significantly widened thus twarting any attempts to overturn such a structure by head-butting or pushing.

There's got to be a trade-off between the amount of steel used, and the convenience of keeping such structures easily dismantle-able (is that a word ?). 

LJ

----------


## prakel

> Large calibre machine gun and explosives. The only way.


I see it as a challenge to my ingenuity and lateral thinking. Now, if we were discussing two-legged predators (who should 'know' better).....

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Bee house /shed might work with a solar power security light

----------


## Castor

_>>>if we were discussing two-legged predators_

...then we use a small calibre to maximise the pain and prolong the agony......


I think the proper solution is probab;y electrical.......

----------


## prakel

For those who use the Swienty BS boxes, CWJ are clearing the old style brood bodies @ £15.83 + VAT. 

http://cwynnejones.com/store/index.p...roducts_id=683

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## gavin

Was a little surprised tonight to see frames filling up with nectar and honey at the association site.  The weather has been cold and wet, and in previous years as soon as the willowherb is over that seems to be it in terms of foraging.  There are still a few flowers at the tops of some of the willowherb spikes, maybe that's what they're getting?  It is quite a distance to the nearest Himalayan balsam and there is no sign of white on their backs.  I did think that one of them - when I was preparing some for a move to the heather - was actually bringing back heather itself (you could smell it - delicious!) despite the distance involved, but the colonies still there seem to be on something else.

So what could there be at this lowland site that isn't Himalayan balsam if it isn't the scraps from late willowherb?  Perhaps later willowherb up the hills behind?  I guess I should go back and look for waggle dances to show me where they're going .....

----------


## gavin

With the sun out today I was in these hives to do a spot of grafting.  No doubt about it, the colonies have the odour of heather honey.  So a quick look at Google Maps shows that there is a hill about 3.5km away with a good area of heather.  Also, the breeze has been coming from that direction, and I always think that an odour trail from distant forage helps them decide to make the journey.  However if they are going up there for heather then there is also likely to be late rosebay willowherb on offer too.

----------


## fatshark

Rosebay willow herb is almost over here as well. Just a few flowers remaining on blackberry. The only colonies bringing anything in are near balsam. I'm taking the last couple of supers off today and already have fondant blocks on a dozen colonies as most are low on stores. I prefer using 12.5kg blocks of fondant in the autumn as they take it a bit slower than syrup, leaving the queen space to continue laying. One good thing about the sudden drop in forage we get here in early/mid August is there's often a brood break. This means any mites are phoretic and more likely to be 'reached' by the Apiguard (which goes on with the fondant).

The end of the season  :Frown:  with only extraction and tidying everything up (reclaiming my garage!) left to do. Shouldn't take more than 6 months ....  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

> This means any mites are phoretic and more likely to be 'reached' by the Apiguard (which goes on with the fondant).


How do you manage that?  Eke with the Apiguard and fondant over an open crownboard on top?

Plenty of things still happening here  :Smile:  even without a garage to accumulate winter jobs.  A kitchen full of supers for cut comb. Queen raising still (over-optimistically perhaps) underway.  Still wondering whether there will be a late surge in the heather crop (though there is frost forecast tonight to the west of where my bees are).  Preparations required for the Dundee show.  Association heather picnic this afternoon.  More requeening when the bees return from the heather.  If October is warm there may be a small flow from the ivy at some sites just to give the bees some encouragement before winter. 

G.

----------


## fatshark

> How do you manage that?  Eke with the Apiguard and fondant over an open crownboard on top?


Nearly ... I have reversible, insulated covers containing Kingspan. I leave a QE in place, add a shallow eke (40mm?) and invert the cover over the top (omitting the insulation!). That leaves space for a half depth block of fondant. Usually I simply add a full block split in half and leave them until late October/November when I tidy things up and add the DPM to prevent woodpecker damage. This year I've yet to buy enough fondant, so gave them half a block each to be getting on with.

image.jpg

I put the Kingspan on top, balanced a little precariously under the roof. I don't like making gallons of syrup, don't want to buy big feeders etc. and think the bees benefit from later brood rearing and that it encourages less robbing or attention from wasps.

I got the fondant tip from Peter Edwards and have used it for at least 5 years without any real problems. Sometimes they seal the QE in place pretty securely and removing it can be a little disruptive, so I choose a warm day in late October (or don't bother). Fondant keeps very well if unopened. Simples  :Wink: 

Good luck with the queen rearing ... I've abandoned things this year.

----------


## Black Comb

This is interesting. 
Do you slice the block longitudinally in half using a cheese cutter?

----------


## fatshark

No, but perhaps I should. I use a breadknife. It's quite hard work and you need to clean the blade in hot water every 2-3 blocks. I cut the blocks in my kitchen, slap a sheet of clingfilm on top and put them back in the box to carry to the apiary. If you're using full blocks you can slice them down the middle, add the clingfilm and then reassemble them. They can then be easily split open just before use.

I buy fondant from BFP Wholesale who usually have the best prices. About £11.50 last year I think, but I'm happy to negotiate a discount for multiples of 10 if I can. They have a Livingstone depot for those North of the border.

----------


## lindsay s

Alan Riach talking about beekeeping on Radio Scotland today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04dqshj  scroll to 41:45

----------


## HJBee

Bit of a deviation on a theme ... 
https://www.facebook.com/OddbinsHyndland

----------


## lindsay s

Last week Stephen Sunderland (lead bee inspector) visited Orkney to carry out some bee health surveillance. The weather couldnt have been better with two sunny calm days and our bees were on their best behaviour. Sue our local secretary took him around several apiaries and I was lucky enough to visit three with them. It was nice to have an expert looking at our hives and samples of bees and wax were taken at each apiary. Ive just sent off the floor insert that he left behind in a hive and my bees have made a good job of chewing it up. Stephen also gave us a talk on bee health in the evening followed by an open discussion.
 Orkneys bees took a while to build up this spring and though we had a good spell of weather in July, August was a lot wetter than average.  All the beekeepers Ive spoken to so far have said their honey crop was down on last year. So all you beekeepers who have had record crops this year please feel free to gloat on this forum.

----------


## HJBee

My first crop this year but lots of late season issues taking the shine off it all Lindsay. Queens who won't lay and record varroa count and visible DWV - 3rd treatment this year - worried I will loose my colonies one way or another over winter.

----------


## gavin

No gloating here Lindsay - a moderate OSR crop, some lime, a good crop of clover from one colony, but not much heather despite the early promise thanks to the coldest August for many years.  Probably an average year for most.

----------


## alancooper

> - a moderate OSR crop, some lime, a good crop of clover from one colony, but not much heather


In much of Fermanagh, with its grassland and thick hedges we mainly get "hedge honey". I largely know what plants my bees are taking pollen from (I use a microscope on dropped pollen loads) but am less certain about where the honey comes from. How do you do it? How can I learn?

----------


## GRIZZLY

Difficult to do unless you can extract pollen from a sample and identify that.

----------


## busybeephilip

Alan,
you need to sake a sample of your honey and process as in : 

http://www.biodlarna.se/website1/1.0...o%20slides.pdf

Best
Phil

----------


## chris

> ......... despite the early promise thanks to the coldest August for many years.  Probably an average year for most.


Down here, A bawful year's crop. I've enough for my own rationed comsumption and that's it. The beekeeping union that normally blames everything on pesticides has added the dreadful summer weather for giving honey crops that vary from a 50% to 80% drop from last year in most areas of the country. Apparently the worst year they've ever known.

My Warré gave me more honey than all my Dadants added together. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## mbc

> My first crop this year but lots of late season issues taking the shine off it all Lindsay. Queens who won't lay and record varroa count and visible DWV - 3rd treatment this year - worried I will loose my colonies one way or another over winter.


I worked through a varroa ravaged apiary today(one of mine that I hadnt got round to since mid July).  Only 9 full supers to clear from 11 hives, lots of supers put on the trailer without needing clearing as they were empty of bees or honey.  None of the hives had crashed, but dwv , bald brood, sac brood, pms and abandoned brood much in evidence and I imagine many of these wont make it through the winter as they've taken too much damage already.  My notes said to keep an eye on these as there was too much evidence of varroa on the last visit but by the looks of things one of the local treatment free beekeepers has suffered losses and ramped up the infestation of mine.  A good splodge of apiguard and a a bit of feed will hopeful;ly bring most round but I'm afraid I'm too late for some as there simply wont be enough healthy bees hatching to raise another batch of clean brood before the winter.  I am chastened  :Frown:

----------


## Little_John

Wow, some sad stories there ...

The last two years have been really dire for me, but this year - despite the almost constant northerly wind - has been very good.  I ran out of boxes by mid-summer, and I've been busy making more 18-frame Long Hives since then.
The performance of Jon's queens in particular has been excellent: they joined the circus only five and a half weeks ago, yet have already outgrown the 6-frame nucs I'd planned to over-winter them in, and are currently in Nationals on 8-frames. Great layers.

LJ

----------


## alancooper

> Alan,
> you need to take a sample of your honey:
> 
> http://www.biodlarna.se/website1/1.0...o%20slides.pdf
> 
> Best
> Phil


I do not have a centrifuge but have identified pollen in honey by gravity overnight but there were few grains any advice on this?

----------


## busybeephilip

dont know if it would work but, your extractor is basically a centrifuge - you might be able to make a jig to hold a tube but need to spin for a long time to pellet pollen

----------


## busybeephilip

you'd need some sort of bucket that can swing out from the verticle to horizontal to hold the tube

----------


## Bridget

Queens who won't lay and record varroa count and visible DWV - 3rd treatment this year - worried I will loose my colonies one way or another over winter.

I'm with you all that HJBee.  I have a new queen hopefully now mated but in a varroa ridden hive and I don't believe I should treat it until she is laying.  It's a bit late for her to build up that colony for winter so it's all a bit of a mess.  So far only 4 frames to be extracted though there may be a little more heather honey to come


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## Black Comb

You don't need a centrifuge, you can use the sedimentation method.
This old thread on the BBKA forum describes it - 3rd or 4th post.
http://www.bbka.org.uk/members/forum.php?t=1409

As the thread discusses, identifying the actual grains is not easy, then you have to apply pollen co-efficients to work out the actual percentages.
Some pollens are quite distinctive under the scope, e.g. Rosebay willow herb.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I'm with you all that HJBee.  I have a new queen hopefully now mated but in a varroa ridden hive and I don't believe I should treat it until she is laying.  ...


Helen and Bridget, won't you consider treating with Apivar?  I don't think it affects the queen.
Kitta

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## HJBee

Used that previously Kitta so changing to avoid resistance this year & already 1/2 way through so committed now!

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## Jon

Varroa counts are very high this year. I have been measuring accurately counting the mite drop from samples of 300 bees shaken in icing sugar to dislodge the mites. Colonies last year were dropping 3 or 4 mites and this year it is more like 20-30 per sample which is very high. The worst dropped 78 mites from 300 bees. I got treatment started around 15th August so I think I should have got rid of the mites in time for a decent build up before winter. The ivy is just about to flower so that should help things with an abundant source of pollen.

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## Black Comb

My drops are high too.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Helen and Bridget, won't you consider treating with Apivar?  I don't think it affects the queen.
> Kitta


Thats the best plan kitta athough any with no brood oxalic trickle right away might be route 1

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## greengumbo

Well I think its winding down time for the year. Some hives coming down of the heather this week and the rest with their MAQs strips on (and not happy about it!!). Not a huge varroa drop this year but I put that down to bad beekeeping allowing big brood gaps in summer. 

Still pollen coming in from something and local ivy not out yet so not sure what it is.

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## lindsay s

It was 19⁰c here today so I had a quick peep in a few of my hives. The colony that was trying to supersede has given up and the old queen is still there laying eggs. A new queen that wasn’t laying two weeks ago now has three frames with brood and all of my colonies now have plenty of stores in their brood boxes (it’s mostly syrup).This good spell seems to have perked up the bees and it’s a pity  the weather wasn’t like this at the start of August. I have seven queen right colonies going into winter but I would have liked more. :Frown:  The meagre amount of honey I’ve harvested this year is still in a tank waiting to be bottled and then our kitchen can return to normal.

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## Bridget

> Helen and Bridget, won't you consider treating with Apivar?  I don't think it affects the queen.
> Kitta


I used MAQS on two of my hives, one has a big drop and no sign of the queen who was a recent supercedure.  I held off as long as I could to give her a chance to get mated but had no choice with the drop.  Could be a disaster either way.  Certainly potent stuff and as evening drew in they were still sitting on the landing board. 
Can anyone suggest what to use for the Nuc?  The MAQS leaflet says not to use on a colony of less than 6 frames and I should treat the nuc at the same time. 


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## GRIZZLY

Use apivar strips Bridget. I used MAQS on 4 colonies earlier this year resulting in the loss of two queens and severe decline in the other two. I've vowed not to use it again as it is so drastic to the bees let alone the varroa. I will stick to my previous regime of OA in the winter plus Apivar in late spring,

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## Bridget

Ok Grizzly I'll do that but I did need drastic action for those two hives.  I've never had very much varroa before but the 24 hr drop since I put on the MAQS is quite severe I think .  
I always do the OA and keep tabs on drop throughout the year but this crept up quick and having a supercedure at the same time thought I should defer with a treatment.  Oh well we will see what happens.  Thank goodness for fine weather so at least the bees have not been confined all day with the MAQS


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## Jon

I had a few looked like that as well.
Re MAQS, I treated 6 colonies at an apiary on 20th August.
One lost its queen, 3 are superseding and 2 have the original queens laying as normal.
I tested samples of 300 bees yesterday to see how effective it was and it does seem to have removed most of the mites apart from one colony which still dropped a dozen from its sample. Could have been robbing a collapsing colony somewhere I suppose.
Maybe the supersedure would have happened anyway.
Most were dropping 0-2 mites whereas before treatment they were dropping 20-70.
Apiguard treatment is still ongoing but has also been very effective at reducing the mite drop from a sample.

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## Bridget

> I had a few looked like that as well.


I don't feel so bad if really experienced beekeepers are going through the same thing re drop, supercedures and disappearing queens.  What a strange time.  


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## GRIZZLY

I'm still convinced MAQS is too severe.

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## Bridget

Would you use MAQS again Jon?


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## Bridget

I agree Grizzly but for the conditions here, still got brood, laying queen, supers on and bees still on the heather, conditions can turn cold any time and no time to loose, it seemed like the best option. 


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## Jon

> Would you use MAQS again Jon?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Definitely not early in the season if I had no spare queens. 
I still have queens in apideas so I knew I could make good any loss.
I didn't risk MAQS on any queens I hope to graft from next year. Those colonies got Apiguard.

The main advantage is getting the treatment over and done with in a week.
I was very careful with ventilation as well and treated colonies had an empty brood box or super above the MAQS strips.

Thing is, I have had 3 or 4 queens disappear and a couple of supersedures earlier in the season which were nothing to do with MAQS.
The queen problems may be related to high mite levels.

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## Little_John

As a user of Oxalic Acid Vapour (or Sublimation) which I find to be both a cheap and highly effective mite-killing method, I'm really puzzled at why people persist in using other methods - especially those which are known to harm queens.

Electrical dosing equipment for OA Vapourisation can be made for just a few pounds by anyone with basic diy skills, and 1 kg of Oxalic Acid dihydrate (enough for 1,000 treatments) costs around £12 delivered - so that's less than 1.5p per hit.

The advantage of electrical dosing over gas torches etc., is that the user can apply the vapour from *upwind* and from a safe distance. I find that in practice there is no need for any safety equipment to be worn, if switching is done remotely at the end of a long cable.
One dose during winter is all that is required, or multiple doses (3 or 4) a week apart if brood is present.  I only apply OA once a year in winter, but always keep the kit handy during the season to use as a 'fire-extinguisher'. But - it's never been required yet.
There is no need to open the hive, and treatments take about 5 minutes from start to finish. I'll shortly be making a rig to dose 4 hives at the same time.
The only negative aspect that I'm aware of, is the need to lug a heavy battery to the apiary - although using a vehicle's battery is one solution, or maybe use a wheelbarrow ?

What's my mite drop ? Dunno - I gave up counting mites years ago. I sometimes found 5 or 6 on a bad day.

Maybe a method worth considering ...?  :Smile: 
LJ

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## Bridget

Well Little John - I treat with OA trickle in winter but I lost both my colonies from last year ( one was too small and the other one the queen didn't start laying again in spring ) so my present hives are new - one a swarm the other purchased.  However the sublimation method - it sounds good but would need someone to show me and the whole equipment "can be made" sounds out with my pay grade.  So maybe you would like a trip to the Highlands to show us how it's done!  


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## Bridget

Jon -you say "The main advantage is getting the treatment over and done with in a week.

I was very careful with ventilation as well and treated colonies had an empty brood box or super above the MAQS strips."

The speed of treatment was one of my reasons for using it in the hope the queens might have time to lay again.  As my bees are in a bee house I have kept entrances and door and windows to the house  open day and night with super above but the bees have not gone up into the supers.  In the MAQS leaflet they say not to feed while the strips are on.  I am interested to know why they recommend this 


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## Little_John

Hello Bridget - if you're not conversant with OA Vapourisation, you might find:




> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo


of interest.

Best regards
LJ

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## Jon

I always do an Oxalic acid treatment in late December to mop up any phoretic mites in what is likely to be a broodless period.
Trickle rather than vaporisation but both work equally well.No battery needed for the trickle method!
Oxalic is also a great treatment for a newly arrived swarm. MAQS costs about £6 per colony and Oxalic about 10p.

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## busybeephilip

I have not tried the MAQS strips.  However, many years ago I did experiment using pads soaked in 80% formic acid (from memory that is the working concentration or it could be 60% ) pinned to the back wall of the brood box I found that it killed mites without any problems but it also caused queen problems, the bees simply ball the queen and if she survives then she will be superseded at a time of year when mating is not favourable so the colony ends up with either a damaged queen or an infertile queen.  I would now only use formic if the queen was removed to a nuc before treatment and reintroduced - just too much bother for me.  

I also know of several in Belfast who are reporting queen losses, I even warned some not to use MAQS but others in the club were saying they had used it with no problems and were encouraged by the "club experts" to use MAQS instead of thymol based treatments.  I only know one person that uses electronic OA treatment who swears by it, I am seriously considering making a rig and as someone said the apairy wheel barrow can be used to haul the battery.

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## Bumble

I used MAQS earlier this year for the first time on four colonies in one apiary, and had no problems with it. One colony had DWV, it's recovered and is looking good going into autumn. The bees seemed to take it in their stride, with no bearding and no halt in laying. Mine are big boxes, I'm not sure if I'd use two strips in a standard National even with supers on.

Circumstances meant the strips were left the strips in place for more than a week, they'd half-heartedly chewed at them, but it would have taken weeks for them to get rid of the whole strips. When I took them off I put the 8 strips in a plastic box and left it overnight before putting on the compost heap. When I opened the box there was a smell of Formic Acid, but not so powerful as to grab the back of your throat.

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## Jon

> I also know of several in Belfast who are reporting queen losses,


I am one of them. Apart from direct losses it seems to induce supersedure.
Not for the faint hearted of those without a few extra queens.

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## HJBee

Doing a spot of kit cleaning ready to store for winter, one of the local bees came to see what was for scavenging - probably one of Mr Craig's but possibly a bit brightly striped for that?

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## The Drone Ranger

Thats a Carnie Italian cross with just a hint of Caucasian seasoning Watson 
Now take me to Barker street

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## HJBee

> Thats a Carnie Italian cross with just a hint of Caucasian seasoning Watson 
> Now take me to Barker street


Ha Ha, there are a few of these about, she came back with a few of her pals!

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## Maybee

You were feeling brave with the close up photography ?

----------


## HJBee

When's it's just a couple of bees away from the hive, nae bother!

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## gavin

Mr Kilbarchan's bees?  Nah - look like Plan B bees to me, stealing the remnants from your frames ...... 

(I'm only on the wind-up!  Don't know what their bees look like.)

These bees are a bit Buckfasty, no?

G.

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## GRIZZLY

Strange honey flow at the moment. I went to rehive one of Jons black queens this afternoon into a full hive and found I couldn't remove the roof and lec on top of the Paynes neuc box. They had filled the cavity totally full with drawn and sealed wild combs. The honey is some really nice heather which must have come from the cliff tops about a mile away. This is the first I have ever had from this area and must be a bonus from the fabulous weather we're experiencing at the moment. Sticky job doing the transfer but avoided stickying up the bees. Her majesty has laid up about 4 frames of sealed brood together with fresh eggs . Lovely docile bees.

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## HJBee

> Mr Kilbarchan's bees?  Nah - look like Plan B bees to me, stealing the remnants from your frames ...... 
> 
> (I'm only on the wind-up!  Don't know what their bees look like.)
> 
> These bees are a bit Buckfasty, no?
> 
> G.


I know that's why I don't think they are the Boss Man's bees, which are the nearest! Unless he's moved one of his many captured swarms up there ........

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## Jon

John, that Galtee stock is great for docility. I rarely get a queen I am not happy with re. temper when I graft from them.

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## gavin

I converted four of my local angry hybrid monsters to this stock (not planning to include them in the breeding we're doing, that's for Scottish stock) and that is my experience too.  They were horrible stocks in mid summer but now that the workers have been replaced they are gentle.  Also piling in the nectar from Himalayan balsam some miles away, and bringing in ivy pollen too.  The good temper could partly be the time of year and good weather too.  A couple are superseding though and that adds a bit of risk for good winter survival.

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## alancooper

"piling in the nectar from Himalayan balsam some miles away, and bringing in ivy pollen too"

We have had a terrific warm, sunny September with ivy flowering 2-3 weeks earlier than usual (beginning of September). My hives of largely local black bees (good temper) have been bringing in massive amounts of ivy pollen and nectar. Because I did not want hives filling with ivy honey (in my experience it crystallises, becomes unusable by the bees in the winter and clogs frames) I put supers on in mid-Sept after an initial feed in early Sept (they are now filling). There is still much brood in the hives and they are getting crowded. This seems like a "perfect storm" for swarming (I destroyed a Q cell a week ago). 

So - what to do about varroa control (I used an Apigard treatment in early Sept for two weeks), feeding and swarming at this awkward time of year?  :Confused:

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## Jon

> A couple are superseding though and that adds a bit of risk for good winter survival.


Seems to be a lot of supersedure this year, some natural and some MAQS induced.
It was over 20c and sunny here yesterday so I would have high hopes that some of those virgins I have in apideas had the wit to fly and mate. Not sure if we will get another perfect day this season as it has turned cloudy and wet now.
I checked one Apidea yesterday and could not find a queen in it and when I put it back in place I saw the queen fly in 30 seconds later so she must have been out and about.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I .  A couple are superseding though and that adds a bit of risk for good winter survival.


Gavin
I dont know if this will work because I haven't tried it but I would bring the old queen and some frames up into another brood box
Leave the queencell and broodframe down in bottom box and separate boxes with a QXcluder then use celotex spacers in top and bottom
The old queen will be protected from a hatching virgin who I seriously doubt will mate and lay in time to be any use for winter
The old queen may fail but bees sometimes do this when you introduce a queen 
They raise their own although there is nothing wrong with the queen you gave them
You often hear people coming up against this requeeening vicious bees with gentle queens (its happened to me in past years)
I dont think theres any supporting evidence but when lots of people notice something there is usually a reason

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## Pete L

> John, that Galtee stock is great for docility.


They do seem to be a good tempered bee, checked on a couple this morning and they were very laid back.

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## alancooper

> Seems to be a lot of supersedure this year, some natural and some MAQS induced.
> It was over 20c and sunny here yesterday so I would have high hopes that some of those virgins I have in apideas had the wit to fly and mate. Not sure if we will get another perfect day this season as it has turned cloudy and wet now.
> I checked one Apidea yesterday and could not find a queen in it and when I put it back in place I saw the queen fly in 30 seconds later so she must have been out and about.


Jon - it has been drier and sunnier in Fermanagh than Belfast this September - light shower this afternoon - first for a month. Do you have an early ivy nectar glut and still much brood?

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## Jon

Loads of brood at the moment. Any colonies I have looked into are full of fresh eggs and larvae.

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## Jon

> It was over 20c and sunny here yesterday so I would have high hopes that some of those virgins I have in apideas had the wit to fly and mate.


At least one had the wit. Checked two apideas this afternoon and one queen had just started to lay.
Off to the Bibba conference in Wales tomorrow so won't get checking any more until next week.

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## fatshark

Apiguard … epic fail (as my son would say). Just finished Apiguard treatment on my colonies. Limited mite drop from most of them. There was one exception, a colony that had failed to build up after a mid-summer setback. It had quite a bit of sac brood and a very large drop of mites. 4 weeks later (two Apiguard treatments) and there were loads of DWV-addled bees tottering about, some with phoretic mites still attached. I moved the colony away from the apiary, removed the queen and shook the bees out.

Has anyone else noticed that the DWV-afflicted bees are the most difficult to shake off the frames?

I went through the frame or so of brood … 50% of the capped pupae had mites associated. B'stards.

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## Jon

Why did it not work on that colony do you reckon?

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## fatshark

Don't know. A few possibilities. The colony was pretty weak, perhaps enough to cover three frames, with a frame and a bit of brood. The rest was largely stores. Perhaps the cooler temperatures coupled with a lower in-hive temperature failed to get the Apiguard properly 'circulating'? Perhaps the mite levels at the outset were astronomically high? However, a month ago when I started Apiguard treatment there was no more overt DWV in this colony than others (and it was low to non-existent in all). There was obvious sac brood. I'm pretty sure it wasn't operator error ... I use Apiguard buckets and remember scooping the stuff out onto trays on the hive roofs. The only logical explanation I have is an unfortunate combination of ley-lines and heavy neonic usage in the largely urban area surrounding the apiary.

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## HJBee

> Has anyone else noticed that the DWV-afflicted bees are the most difficult to shake off the frames?


Yes, I was watching some workers trying to remove some deformed bees (wings and abdomen in some cases). I thought I would help out and they clung on like limpets.

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## fatshark

Nipped down to an apiary this afternoon to collect some cleared supers and top up the fondant on a couple of colonies. Disappointed to discover that they'd ploughed the field to within a foot of the front of the hives. The 3 or 4 yard margin was gone as was the few acres of wild flowers on the other side of the hedge. In the last 5 years the margin was approximately in line with the barrow in the attached image.

20141007-0001.jpg

Removing half a dozen supers over that lot was hard work  :Mad:

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## Mellifera Crofter

Not today, or even yesterday's news.  Monday was wild, and today rivers are running down our track - but Sunday's news or observation.

We're busy plastering some inside walls with lime (natural hydraulic lime) and the bees just love it.  They gather round the edges of tubs lapping up lime-rich water and buzz around spilt lime on the ground.  Maybe they need calcium, or could there be something else in lime that they're after?  Their taste for drinking water remain strange.  

Kitta

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## Jon

Found a hive blown clean over today. Must have happened in the storm on Sunday night.
I reassembled it and saw the queen in the process so it could have been worse.

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## greengumbo

The kitchen is now full of all things harvested. Reckon I'll finish with 60lbs honey from two hives (mainly heather) after jarring it. A year of learning again and I'll be ready for next year. Lots of queens mated and given away to friends in need and some success with grafting and using incubators. A stray queen landing in one of my hives and setting up shop alongside the incumbent was the oddest thing to happen. They both happily laid eggs at either end of the broodnest for a month until I chose who to chop. 

Yesterday while putting the rapid feeder on one of the heather hives I got terrorised by the little buggers. 13 stings across my arms. Boy were they angry. Hope this is just a mix of weather, honey being removed and them having been forced into a single brood box for the winter.

Winter tasks....convert the spare wood in my garage leftover from house renovations into nucs and mating nucs for next year. Build a cider press.

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## fatshark

> The kitchen is now full of all things harvested.


Phew ... that's a relief. I saw the images on twitter and thought you were running a meths lab  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

I wonder if having field margins of wildflowers does any good.
They get sprayed along with the crops and plowed up again so is it worth paying a subsidy

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Little behind the release but "Will & Testament" a film about the life of Tony Benn is on release now.
The DCA in Dundee some Odeon cinemas or Curzon home cinema on the web

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## greengumbo

> Phew ... that's a relief. I saw the images on twitter and thought you were running a meths lab


The meths lab is for winter. Aberdeen is a saturated market unfortunately  :Wink:

----------


## Little_John

Finally got fed-up looking at a Kenyan Top-Bar Hive which I built some years ago, which I've only used for bees once, and as a dust-collecting work-bench ever since. So I took a saw to it today and will be re-building as a dual 14x12 Long Hive over the next few days ...
LJ

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## Jon

You will be burning your sandals and Yurt next!

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## Little_John

> You will be burning your sandals and Yurt next!


LOL !  

It was a phase I went through ...

I'd like to say it had some good points, but I can't think of a single one - although plenty of negatives (for me). Still, horses for courses ...
I do like running foundation-less, but not with unsupported comb - for me, that's a step too far.

So - it'll now become a more useful 30-frame 14x12 box, divided into two separate hives, each one the equivalent of a double standard brood. 

LJ

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## GRIZZLY

All the bees going at it hell for leather these last two days. I guess from the colour of the pollen they are bringing in that the whins are having a major flow. Seem to be 50 - 50  pollen and nectar gathering. I notice that they have been filling up the supers again , was Himalayan balsom  up to last week - lots of white striped workers.

----------


## Adam

It's been 20 degrees here this weekend and bees have been flying strongly. Not much pollen coming in though compared to a week or two ago. 
This is the first year I have ever seen striped workers - don't know if it's the weather that's got the HB out this year, or maybe there's some growing somewhere now.
Hives are getting strapped down for winter or have paving slabs on the roofs.
I am making it my goal to clean everything up this year rather than wait 'till spring. Soda crystals at the ready.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Adam 
its the old catch 22 
If you try cleaning when the bees are flying they very soon home in on you
I use the thornes steamer lid but if there are bees around they catch the scent and invade the shed 

Sheffield beekeepers little pollen identifier is easy to use 
http://www.sheffieldbeekeepers.org.u.../pollen-chart/

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## fatshark

> Sheffield beekeepers little pollen identifier is easy to use 
> http://www.sheffieldbeekeepers.org.u.../pollen-chart/


... but I'm pretty sure they got the ivy pollen colour wrong. Round here it's bright yellow. I went so far as to photograph bees on it with full pollen baskets.

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## The Drone Ranger

> ... but I'm pretty sure they got the ivy pollen colour wrong. Round here it's bright yellow. I went so far as to photograph bees on it with full pollen baskets.


Its a good little idea though  :Smile:

----------


## fatshark

I might find it easier to use if I wasn't colourblind 😃

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## fatshark

Honey show tonight ...

Here's one I prepared earlier and - understandably - gave away. 

photo 1.JPG

Do they deliberately provide incorrect honey fruit cake recipes to scupper most entries?

----------


## busybeephilip

Tricky things honey cakes are, I can never get them just right.  I think it must be one of the judges nightmares trying to choose from all the entries (apart from the black jar).  The only bit I enjoy is eating them with a slab of real butter and nice cuppa tea

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## busybeephilip

I often think that some persons diverge from the recipe as some cakes often look better, can be thicker, and unburnt.  Definitely a knack to it

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## GRIZZLY

The problem with honey cakes is actually the honey. If the temperature is not just right or the cooking time is not strictly adhered to , the honey will "catch" or darken giving the cake a burnt effect. The size and depth of the baking tin is also important to get things right - good quality 8 inch tin.

----------


## masterbk

A good judge will have made the cake for themselves prior to the show and weighed it.  If a judge thinks extra amounts of ingedients have been added they will weigh the entries (bearing in mind that undercooked cakes weigh more but such cakes would be soggy especially in the middle and not be amongst the winners anyway). With fruit cakes there is a tendency to add extra fruit. Some will use duck eggs instead of chickens eggs which gives a better flavour. Having said that there are definiteskills involved in making good cakes so the winners truly deserve their certificates, trophies etc. As a judge I find it is not usually difficult picking the winner. I have more trouble putting the "runners up" into some sort of order deciding which should be second, third etc as they tend to have a range of different faults making it more difficult to compare them. With honey fruit cakes they should  be moist not dry inside so best to bake them a week before the show and then store them in an airtight tin.

----------


## GRIZZLY

What to do ? One of my colonies has suddenly decided to retain its drones. The colony in question is bursting with bee - double brood - and I think the queen has been laying at a great rate ,taking advantage of the late flows and warm weather. I suspect that she has now evolved into a drone layer - probably because she headed up an early swarm and therefore is an older queen. I don't want to pull the colony apart this late in the season , particularly as the temperature now gets quite cold - that is if it's not raining. I am thinking of leaving things alone until next spring as finding and killing the old queen to unite them to another q right colony would be a real hassle. They've got loads of food and workers so should make it alright thro' the winter months.

----------


## Jon

Some of mine keep drones over winter and I noticed a colony I checked late September had a big slab of sealed drone brood. 
Probably nothing to worry about.

----------


## Little_John

Just found another use for honey - a few drops on a piece of stale bread. Wafts a nice attractive scent around, so put 'em into place after dark :



Gottcha my furry friend ... that'll teach you to take an interest in these bee-hives ...

LJ

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## Little_John

Hope you didn't find yesterday's photo too gruesome ...  

I caught another one last night - this one has been living in my workshop (and no doubt breeding ...), and has been ignoring cheese, chocolate and even bacon rind - but honey was to be it's downfall.  I was a bit keen to catch it, as it's been driving me nuts: every time I start work on making more bee boxes, a brown ball of fur suddenly streaks across the floor. Thus far I haven't been able to figure what it is (or was). Turns out it was a large(ish) short-tailed mouse - with almost no tail at all.

After a brief cold spell, we're back with 20's again - at least for a few days - girls are packing away pollen by the shed-load, and drones are still in residence. There are predictions for around 16 next week, with very respectable overnight temperatures. Can't see any evictions happening for a while yet ...

LJ

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Hope you didn't find yesterday's photo too gruesome ...


Yes, LJ - horrible ...  When my cats leave me little mouse presents, at least I can chuck them away (the mice - not the cats) - so, I hope people will soon fill this page with their 'today' activities.  

On a nicer note, we had our Aberdeenshire honey show today, and I learned a lot about showing honey (about time too - my Module 2 exam is round the corner).

Kitta

PS:  Ah!  We've moved to the next page - your image is out of view, LJ - so all's well. K

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## busybeephilip

I'm setting my traps this evening.  Normally i use chocolate (Galaxy), they seem to like it.  Caught one yesterday in the side of my eye climbing up the shed wall as I was moving stuff about, big and fat.

----------


## HJBee

They love snickers too!

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## fatshark

Galaxy! Snickers! No wonder they're big and fat  :Wink:

----------


## Adam

That looks like raspberry jam on the bread and not honey!

----------


## GRIZZLY

Well so far we've had just about everything weather wise - Rain, hail. very strong wind, thunder and lightning. Its more like being in a production of Shakespears "The Tempest". Just waiting now for the plague of locusts.

----------


## Rosie

Let's hope you don't get a plague of SHBs

----------


## GRIZZLY

> Let's hope you don't get a plague of SHBs


Are you going to post your BIBBA lecture chart ?

----------


## Bridget

Heading south on the train and see Murray Mcgregor still has hives on the heather near Dalwhinnie.  Also some about a mile from me also with supers on.  Hope they are not full of Italians.


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## gavin

> ..... some about a mile from me also with supers on......


Only a mile?  There will be an army of slime-ridden maggots bearing down on your garden as dusk approaches!  They do crawl quite far apparently.

On the other hand Murray has had the inspectors crawling all over him (and his hives) so you are probably safe (for now).   :Smile: 

G.

----------


## Rosie

> Are you going to post your BIBBA lecture chart ?


Rather than hijack this thread I have put a summary here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...7963#post27963

----------


## Bridget

Well he usually removes his hives in September.  Seems a bit late.  Maybe the inspectors don't know about these hives?


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## Bridget

I was going to ask how they spread.  Not flying then but crawling.  Maybe the scratchy heather will deter those Italian soft bellies.


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## gavin

Hi Bridget

I was speaking to him last Friday and he hasn't forgotten about his A9 apiaries.  The last heather crop to come in.  The adult beetles fly - you can see them doing so here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFb9E...2fHpKU-H0ZtJPw

.. and the larvae crawl, quite far but not a mile.  

G.

----------


## Bridget

Wow if you've got them it should be pretty clear cut.  Thanks


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## The Drone Ranger

> Heading south on the train and see Murray Mcgregor still has hives on the heather near Dalwhinnie.  Also some about a mile from me also with supers on.  Hope they are not full of Italians.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like in the Allo Allo sketch with the English airmen hiding in the piano.
Plinky plinky plink plonk plinky plinky plonk

----------


## HJBee

Well just been given the news that I do have a severe allergy to bee venom, start my desensitisation course in Dec (in Glasgow via NHS, so luckier than some), hopefully ok ready for the spring season.

----------


## gavin

> Well just been given the news that I do have a severe allergy to bee venom, start my desensitisation course in Dec (in Glasgow via NHS, so luckier than some), hopefully ok ready for the spring season.


Excellent!  Well, not excellent that you have it, but I think that was obvious from your comments earlier.  If you are starting in December you'll be through the first phase before the season starts.  Then you can join the ranks of we previously-allergic but fixed beekeepers.  Good on the NHS.  The only issue will be the dodgy sandwiches and squash on offer if you have the treatment over lunch

Must have been, oh, 10 years since my desensitisation and I've had no trouble since.

----------


## HJBee

Thanks Gavin, I'm looking forward to the next season when I'm not as conscious about it all, it was taking some of the pleasure out of it, also the better half won't be shackled to me in a terrified manner!

----------


## gavin

LOL!  We demand pictures!

----------


## Rosie

My wife is going through a desensitisation course and is expecting it to take 3 years before she can risk a sting.  Do you think she is on a different course or has she been badly advised?

----------


## gavin

Steve, the version of the treatment I had was 12 weeks of increasing doses in subcutaneous injections then a maintenance dose every 6 weeks or so for the rest of 3 years.  The 12 weeks starts with vanishingly small doses of venom and rises to two sting's worth by the end of the 12 weeks.  If you are going to have any sort of bad reaction (which is exceedingly rare) it would happen in the middle of that period.  As I understood it you were essentially free of the problem by your last of the 12 week series.  Certainly you have the assurance of taking double doses and having no reaction by then.  

The staff taking her through the programme can advise but that is how I see it.

----------


## Rosie

She had a weekly dose for about 12 weeks and then switched to a monthly one for 3 years.  The staff refuse to give my wife any details of her progress and just stonewall her if she asks anything.  I suspect their policy to keep quiet in case someone causes trouble for them if they are proved to be wrong.

----------


## gavin

Stonewalling is not good.  My doctor was an ENT surgeon, and was very willing to discuss anything while we waited for the hour after the injection.

Maybe I should back-pedal.  This guy seems to think that the effect builds over years:

http://www.spirehealthcare.com/cardi...t-for-allergy/

... but I was told that I was reasonably safe after the 12 weeks.

----------


## fatshark

First talk of the winter season tonight. No live webcast offered  :Frown: . I talked at the same place last year and they didn't have a VGA cable for the projector. I handled the Q+A session - before the talk - while someone kindly scurried off home and found one. I'm taking a cable with me this time  :Wink:

----------


## HJBee

> Stonewalling is not good.  My doctor was an ENT surgeon, and was very willing to discuss anything while we waited for the hour after the injection.
> 
> Maybe I should back-pedal.  This guy seems to think that the effect builds over years:
> 
> http://www.spirehealthcare.com/cardi...t-for-allergy/
> 
> ... but I was told that I was reasonably safe after the 12 weeks.


That is what I've been told, my consultant is very well versed on beekeeping and the seasons and it is in the 12 week bi weekly injections that you are at risk, after then the bi monthly (for me) injections will continue and I will be back at the bees as usual.

----------


## Jon

Had a quick look in a colony which had a supersedure queen start to lay at the beginning of October.
Lots of emerged brood and fresh eggs.

I also noticed a queen had started to lay in an Apidea but that is odds on to be drone brood as the queen emerged on 13 September.

----------


## HJBee

Had a peek in a colony I was worried about, they had ate a full block of fondant in 1 month, hopefully a good sign they will survive! Too cold for a proper look.

----------


## Jon

It was yesterday I looked in and it was about 17c

----------


## HJBee

I was in at 8.30 this morning, wee but chillier than that! I e of my other site colonies were out and flying at 1, it was 15c then.

----------


## prakel

Later today I'll be looking for an online watermark system. It comes to something when you find your photo of a UK reared queen being used to advertise 'local reared Florida queens'! Tighter controls in future...

----------


## Castor

Bee stolen for illustration purposes only.

----------


## prakel

> Bee stolen for illustration purposes only.


They don't actually state that as far as I can see, mind, neither do the Natural Beekeeping Trust on their website!!  :Wink:  Not too worried, maybe I could do a deal with one of these continental package dealers, my photos in exchange....

----------


## Beefever

Might be worth a cheeky ask Prakel.  How did you find out they were using your picture?

----------


## prakel

I literally just stumbled on one site and thought 'I recognize that photo'(!) then did a google search and found it cropping up all over the place. No big deal in this instance -I can see why they'd think that a photo of one of my queens would increase their sales  :Smile:  Likewise, I'm happy that the NBT plainly think that my heavily managed queens are a picture of health.....

But, the photos of the mating nuc system we've been putting together are going to stay on the hard drive at least for now.

I think I'll pass on the eu deal -I'd hate to sneak in and steal the infamy of bringing in some beetles when others are more deserving of that title.

----------


## prakel

Finishing the day on a cheerful note - I benefited from a last minute cancellation and got to attend an E O Wilson lecture -hero's rarely come to us so I'd have been truly gutted if I'd missed it.

----------


## Little_John

> Later today I'll be looking for an online watermark system. It comes to something when you find your photo of a UK reared queen being used to advertise 'local reared Florida queens'! Tighter controls in future...


They're taking a helluva chance trying to flog bees using an English photo. Apparently somebody in the States has been drinking Red Bull for years and is now taking the firm to court for false advertising, 'cause he hasn't actually grown any wings yet. It could only happen over there ...  :Smile: 

LJ

----------


## Jon

> Finishing the day on a cheerful note - I benefited from a last minute cancellation and got to attend an E O Wilson lecture -hero's rarely come to us so I'd have been truly gutted if I'd missed it.


Read a lot of his stuff as part of my psychology degree. Managed to focus on the options to do with animal behaviour and genetics as opposed to the more waffely stuff. Bet he mentioned ants quite a bit.

----------


## prakel

> Bet he mentioned ants quite a bit.


Not too much actually, but it was still a great opportunity. Made an otherwise normal Monday so much brighter.

----------


## Jon

He is 85 years old now according to wiki. How was the lecture?

----------


## prakel

Very good, he did make a point of reading from a script to make sure that we got exactly what he intended to say but that's fine, there was still room for a few diversions. I'd definitely go to see him again.

----------


## greengumbo

Sodding wasps ! 

Bees were busy on Saturday so had a quick peek under the kingspan to see if they have made a dent in the early fondant (long story). 2 hives doing really well but a third is much reduced and the three wasps that flew out during my peek may be the reason. The entrance is only a bee space but they obviously cant be arsed defending it. I watched wasps coming in and out every 30s or so.

Have put the hive into lockdown and this morning was rewarded with the first hard frost of the year so that might kill off the stripey wee buggers.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Bees really flying today and bringing in lots of pollen from the whins I think. Topped them up with fondant while they are active. The new black bees are making a good showing. Got to get rid of the Carnies in the spring so as to avoid bad crosses with the apis mellifera mellifera. Been making up lots of new frames -  B----y Thornes have made the side bars a little wider this time with the result that whereas I could easily get 12 frames across a national b.box  I can only get eleven with a wide extra space that is about 2 mm too narrow for the extra frame. I don't want to use dummy boards in every b.box. These frames are for some Rose hive boxes I have made based on standard National construction but just 190 mm deep. Thornes probably made them specially for me to pick up at the Nat Honey Show as they probably don't keep too many in stock. The quality of the frames is terrible - not what I would expect after paying nearly £200.00 for them. I'll have to set up and make my own in future.

----------


## Jon

Mine are flying strongly today as well and bringing in a lot of pollen. I think it is ivy as there is still a lot in flower around here.
I opened an Apidea I have in my front garden an hour ago and it is full of brood including fresh eggs.

----------


## gavin

Yesterday was the oxalic acid trickling day at my own apiary.  Bad choice as the sleet came on.

However the bees were looking good.  Four, five, six, and three at 8 or 9 seams of bees (that one at 9 was strong all summer and requeened in August with an Amm queen of Aberdeenshire origin).  Far too early of course to be predicting winter survival but as I'm planning to scale up next year it was pleasing to see the strength of some of them.

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## mbc

Did you peek to see if there was any brood?

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## Calum

> Sodding wasps ! 
> 
> Bees were busy on Saturday so had a quick peek under the kingspan to see if they have made a dent in the early fondant (long story). 2 hives doing really well but a third is much reduced and the three wasps that flew out during my peek may be the reason. The entrance is only a bee space but they obviously cant be arsed defending it. I watched wasps coming in and out every 30s or so.
> 
> Have put the hive into lockdown and this morning was rewarded with the first hard frost of the year so that might kill off the stripey wee buggers.


Hi 
I read a great article on this in a german journal some weeks ago.
See my post below
The wasps will not forget the foraging site, and other colonies will also probably be robbing if the wasps are. 
You could view the whole this as in this link as natural selection and strengthering of your stock...
good luck
Calum

----------


## Calum

In a call at the minute, but here is the google translation of the article aforementioned at least for chuckles:
1.	Robbery - often a consequence of hive design
Now Begins again the time of the robbery . Nature offers Not much , but the meteorological situation means that the bees are still active . Weaker colonies make the flight earlier on and pull themself together for warmth ball . as such they lose contact with the hive entrance and no longer guard it. The hive available yet equipped with A High Floor, increases the distance from ball to the entrance hole additionally. Then it doesnt even help to reduce the entrance hole size. Seekers bees from stronger nations and even die much more active wasps can pass freely through the entrance hole and get to the box back wall the bees free part of the winter food . You mess also THEREFOR worry yourself did the bee fit directly located at the entrance hole . This means first : No weaklings einwintern ! Where possible change (frame) transept on longitudinal building . High soil(floors) is said on the circular saw to max. 4 cm height inside down . One possibility would be to appeal to the High Floor A false floor made of thin plywood and the entrance hole wedge 180 ° vertically turning ( entrance hole above). The nonsense with the high floors came on about 40 years ago , because with man Convenient wanted to feed from below. Today, hardly anyone has a food dishes behind the entrance hole , but die High floors are still many cases . This is pure waste of material and a invitation for robbing wasps and bees

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## GRIZZLY

I assume that the floors mentioned are as shown in the utube video "Beekeeping by the rotational method! ?.

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## gavin

> Did you peek to see if there was any brood?


Nah, it was a foul afternoon once we got to the bees (OK leaving the car though) so we kept the disturbance to a minimum.  I prefer to do the oxalic on a cool day and would only look at frames if it was a lot warmer.  Yesterday I treated the 15 at the association apiary at lunchtime.  Less strong but they're looking good all the same.  One Apidea sitting atop a polystyrene hive and exposed to the elements looked OK too, if hungry.  I had just left that one with a non-laying late queen from our mating site, assuming it to be doomed.  I replaced two of the 5 Apidea combs with stores combs, and added fondant in the feeder on top.  Who knows, maybe it will make it too.  That queen came from a grand-daughter from the grafting session after a Saturday morning dash to Green Gumbo's apiary following his kind offer of a piece of comb from his Aberdeenshire Amm queen.

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## Jon

I found another apidea with a laying queen last week on a site I had not visited for 2 months. It was on the point of starvation but I took it home and gave it a few frames of stores. Fingers crossed.

----------


## Castor

When are the drones finally going to realise it's over?
4C yesterday + sun of sorts and they are all over the place......

----------


## GRIZZLY

I've had a bit of drone retention this year as well. Cold windy weather has stopped flying. Hoping for a settled spell so I can attend to the oxalic acid treatments.

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## greengumbo

> When are the drones finally going to realise it's over?
> 4C yesterday + sun of sorts and they are all over the place......


I must have missed the drones being kicked out this year.....or they haven't been yet ! I did find a single cold one on the landing board last week so brought it indoors as an educational tool for the kids. It soon came round and was buzzing about the room  :Smile:  

Oxalic just after Christmas I reckon. Before the long drive south to Somerset and the in-laws....ba humbug.

----------


## Castor

> It soon came round and was buzzing about the room


They always look like nightclub bouncers to me - baldy heads, bug eyes and knuckles dragging......

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## prakel

> They always look like nightclub bouncers to me - baldy heads, bug eyes and knuckles dragging......


.....interesting description.

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## mbc

> They always look like nightclub bouncers to me - baldy heads, bug eyes and knuckles dragging......


Try a night out in swansea, you'll soon realise the bouncers have stings!

----------


## Calum

Talking to a beekeeper just now who made 200 queens this summer with 4 colonies.. As a preventative to swarming Wow, any takers in the method?


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## drumgerry

I'd be interested to hear it but the question remains....why?!

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## mbc

> Talking to a beekeeper just now who made 200 queens this summer with 4 colonies.. Wow, any takers in the method?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did he use a fish and a couple of loaves of bread?

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## Calum

No. He did noting difficult, I could write an explanation or invite you to a conference call (free phone) on Sunday - conf call would be better for questions what's the preference- pls include time.


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## Calum

> I'd be interested to hear it but the question remains....why?!


Why? Because he sells 140 colonies a year and requeens the rest yearly


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## drumgerry

Sorry Calum I misinterpreted  - I thought he only had 4 colonies whereas you meant he used 4 of his colonies to raise his queens.  Can't manage the conference call but many thanks for the offer.

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## Calum

It's surprisingly simple, he makes 15-20 queens a shot by moving the colony position, just leaving the super in place with a graft frame and some additional pollen maybe. Once the queen cells are started (3days later) he reunites the colony and let's them finish the cells in the super. 


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## mbc

> It's surprisingly simple, he makes 15-20 queens a shot by moving the colony position, just leaving the super in place with a graft frame and some additional pollen maybe. Once the queen cells are started (3days later) he reunites the colony and let's them finish the cells in the super. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At the most critical stage of nutrition the larvae are being fed by older foraging age bees with atrophied hypopharangeal glands, I don't like this idea.

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## Calum

No, plenty of young bees should be in the super ripening nectar, you can shake bees of a frame of open brood to add further young bees. Like it or not, it works.


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## mbc

> Like it or not, it works.


Fair enough, but there are too many methods and variations out there to try all the ones I quite like, let alone trying things where obvious weaknesses immediately spring to mind.

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## Duncan

> Talking to a beekeeper just now who made 200 queens this summer with 4 colonies.. As a preventative to swarming Wow, any takers in the method?


It is not a lot.

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## Calum

Not a lot of queens or takers?  :Smile:   Aye the Scottish beekeepers and bees are hardy. They'll be just fine.


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## prakel

An interesting little snippet regarding research into afb in Bee Culture's 'Catch the Buzz':

http://us9.campaign-archive2.com/?u=...a&e=250b34fe0f




> Discovery aims to fight destructive bee disease
> 
> University of Guelph researchers hope their new discovery will help combat a disease killing honeybee populations around the world.
> 
> The researchers have found a toxin released by the pathogen that causes American foulbrood disease -- Paenibacillus larvae (P. larvae) -- and developed a lead-based inhibitor against it.

----------


## Jon

12c today and the bees are flying in light rain.
I have 12 Apideas in the garden and all are active.
I even saw some pollen going in.

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## Castor

Tenacious little devils aren't they? 13C here - wife reports our garden nuc is "busy-ish".

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## Jon

In a bad winter it is hard to overwinter any Apideas but this year it's looking good so far.
That can stand the odd night at minus temperatures but when you get several days below zero they usually just freeze.
I treated more than 40 colonies with Oxalic since the weekend and there are no losses yet.
There are a couple of weak nucs at the association apiary might not make it.

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## mbc

Looking good so far, but also it's far too early for chicken counting, March and April is when the majority fall.

----------


## HJBee

Merry Xmas or whatever, to all my fellow Beekeepers!

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## Castor

...and an excellent Yule to all here. Good luck for the New Year all!

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## prakel

Later than usual but finally managed to deliver the last of this year's 'winter rent' payments.

233.jpg237.jpg

We also give an Easter themed 'spring rent' followed by casual jars/comb through the season.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Todays settled weather has finally allowed me to finish the oxalic aciding. All seem o.k. . Heres wishing everyone a Happy Christmas and a Honey Filled New Year.

----------


## Bumble

Merry Christmas everybody  :Smile:

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## GRIZZLY

Temperature minus 4 deg C this morning and up to zero deg C at lunchtime. The bees flying having cleansing flights - lured out by the strong sunshine. All colonies showing some activity.

----------


## Jon

No losses here yet either. Checked a few colonies yesterday and some had quite a drop of mites from Oxalic treatment the week before. One had about 250 mites on the board and that one had MAQS in August.

----------


## Michael Palmer

> Later than usual but finally managed to deliver the last of this year's 'winter rent' payments.


Same here, but I like giving my apiary rents on Christmas eve. Of course I don't mind the cookies and maple syrup and other goodies. Everyone is in a good mood.

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## prakel

Got to say that it was a nice stop off for a Christmas eve, they're a great family and it is without doubt my favourite apiary.

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## prakel

> lured out by the strong sunshine.


Much like that here this week but without the -4C temps. We did have a frost, the first as far as I can recall since the start of Nov '13, on Monday (in-land, beyond the ridgeway is a very different story of course). Oddly for these parts we haven't yet seen the start of the bitter winds which try so hard to suck the life out of everything.

----------


## fatshark

Just back from checking the _Varroa_ boards after treatment yesterday. A reassuringly low fall of mites from most colonies suggesting that either the Apiguard worked in September  :Big Grin:  or that they're all busily tucking into sealed brood  :Frown:   even the nucs (which didn't get Apiguard) only have ~25 mites after 24 hours. I'll check again in a few days.

_Happy New Year_

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## HJBee



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## gavin



----------


## Neils

Done my OA today and tidied up the mess that is my apiary, urban shelter to exposed rural setting, lessons learned. Bricks help a lot.

All hives alive but I think one will be lucky to make it through to spring.

Happy new year everyone.

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## drumgerry

Well it felt like the house was going to do a Wizard of Oz last night and fly up into the air!  We've no power either (at someone else's house just now).  A couple of roofs had flown off the hives but none had tipped over.  The bees on a cursory glance seemed ok.  Hopefully power back on and back to normal later today.

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## gavin

Hope that things are back to normal for you Gerry.  Yesterday saw a flurry of activity at the Edinburgh and Midlothian BA apiary after this happened.  Read more about it on their new Facebook page.  This is it after a rescue operation that even included finding and re-hiving the queen and workers from the most damaged hive.

----------


## mbc

> Hope that things are back to normal for you Gerry.  Yesterday saw a flurry of activity at the Edinburgh and Midlothian BA apiary after this happened.  Read more about it on their new Facebook page.  This is it after a rescue operation that even included finding and re-hiving the queen and workers from the most damaged hive.


The evidence is plain to see, God doesn't like poly hives....

----------


## drumgerry

Bleedin hell Gavin that's terrible!  Still no power at home.  We have decamped to the inlaws - hopefully back on later today.

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## HJBee

Jeez - I'm amazed they were able to rescue anything from that!  I checked up on my 2 sites today. Luckily they were all upright and unharmed. Good job as Desensitisation starts Monday - so they are a no go for me till Mid March at least.

----------


## GRIZZLY

That was some storm was it not Gavin. Luckily someone was on hand to sort out the mess. I'm very pleased you were able to rescue the queen and her colony - hope they make it thro the rest of the winter. So far so good here, my polyhives have come thro' o.k. but I have substituted deep wooden roofs for the swienty ones when I set them up for the winter. If the wind drops and the sun shines , the odd hive has been bringing in a bit of pollen.  I think the up and down weather  and temperatures are unsettling them and they're not clustering properly - the queens are being encouraged to lay more eggs ,I hope it all settles down soon.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Very strong winds this morning. I had one of the swienty plastic lids blow off despite having 3 very heavy bricks on top . the wind just got underneath the shallow rim, flipped the lid up and sliding the bricks off. I had to walk the length of my garden to retrieve it ( a couple of hundred yards). I have now replaced it with a standard metal roof plus bricks. the bees weren't affected as I watched it happen and re-roofed them immediately.  The rotten sycamore tree from which I salvage my smoker fuel has finally blown flat so I'll have to store the whole lot now instead of just breaking off bits as I need them.

----------


## Bridget

Drumgerry and I have been having a discussion regarding clearing snow from hives in this weather. Even a bee house gets a build up of snow and ice round the entrances so I have been carefully clearing them. In photos you can see the entrances (with slates protecting the entrances from strong wind and against bright sun combined with snow) are well covered. On removal of the slates my two smaller colonies were completely covered with snow and some ice on the landing board. The strongest colony of the three has generated enough heat to keep the entrance clear although there was ice from the melted snow building up. Drumgerry says in the States hives can be completely covered in snow in winter for some time and still survive. I think we have to contend with wind driving the heavy wet snow into the entrances and I prefer to be safe than sorry. Any thoughts?
IMG_1305.jpgIMG_1307.jpgIMG_1308.jpg

----------


## drumgerry

I'm hoping from your post Bridget that your power's back on now?!

Yep I'd be interested to hear what other members think as well.  From my own point of view I don't see the harm in clearing the snow but I've always thought snow coverage was ok for beehives.  I may be wrong!

The US beekeeper I was thinking of re the complete burial of hives in snow was Mike Palmer.  I'm sure I remember him using pics (in one of the talks of his that are online) of him walking around on snow under which are alive and healthy bee colonies.

----------


## chris

My experience with snowed in hives is the following: If the snow doesn't freeze, then just leave it, as air can pass through, and the bees will be clustered and not wanting to go out.
On the other hand, if the snow freezes, then there will be danger of eventual suffocation. In this case, I clear the snow at the entrance, but leave the slate in place. Like this, the snow "luminosity" doesn't disturb the bees.
DSCF4102.JPG DSCF4099.JPG

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## prakel

Another winter's day here in the South

025 (2).jpg

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## Bridget

Thanks Chris I'll keep clearing as you can't tell here what's going on till you clear them.  Today despite the slates shading the sun and snow glare some of the little blighters had decided to go for a spin with the inevitable results at -2 degrees


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## gavin

> Today despite the slates shading the sun and snow glare some of the little blighters had decided to go for a spin with the inevitable results at -2 degrees


Maybe they're the Captain Oates bees.

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## gavin

I'm thinking of scaling up.



The fondant went on yesterday.  Some of mine were a bit light in the autumn and are even lighter now.  Well, they're a bit heavier again.

BFP are selling 12.5 kg of fondant at £8.78 which seems a decent price.  Just over 70p/kilo, and less water than the various syrups.

----------


## drumgerry

That's a good price Gavin.  I managed to get some cheap fondant through Bridget on here and I'm still working my way through it.  I'm a great believer in whacking a big slab of the stuff direct on to the frame top bars above the cluster in the early months of the year as a belt and braces against isolation starvation.

----------


## Bridget

Wow Gavin BFP is where I get my fondant from but it's never been below £10 a box.  Maybe it's because everyone has finished icing their Christmas cakes!  Seriously though - it worries me that it can get pretty hard even above the brood and I was worried that it was because its a cheap commercial option.  Do you reckon it's OK?


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## drumgerry

It's absolutely fine Bridget.  I used it all last winter and the bees dealt with it without a problem.  The bees ate all but a few remnants which admittedly were pretty hard.  Remember as well that some people just moisten sugar bags and stick it on top of the bees and although I've never done it I'm pretty sure what the bees don't eat of that would become pretty hardened by Spring time.  

I'm certainly not convinced enough to buy really expensive Apifonda or the like although I have used that in the last.  Not seeing much difference between the expensive and the cheap so worry not!

----------


## gavin

I don't think that I've ever had it below £10 either, sometimes several pounds above.  Looks like the international price for sugar has been falling to take it to 2009 levels:

http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...0&currency=gbp



Some commercial beekeepers use only bakers fondant.  To stop it drying, wrap it in plastic and make a few slits on the underside to show the bees the way in.  The simplest way is to take the 12.5 kg bag in the box shape and cut it right through the middle with a big knife then you have the plastic protecting the fondant.  Either use the half block, cut side down (with or without a slit plastic or greaseproof paper covering), or the whole block opened out like a book.  There are more details and pitures on the Stratford on Avon Beekeepers website.  It doesn't dry out when protected by the plastic it comes in.

And yes, the bees winter well on bakers fondant, applied now or even in the autumn.

----------


## drumgerry

Great suggestions Gavin!  I have been slicing a block into 5 and wrapping the slabs in greaseproof paper.  A little cutout in the paper allows the bees access.  And as I said the bees seem happy enough with it.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I inspected all the colonies today, and then noticed these bite marks on one of the hives.  One on the front of the hive by the entrance (the first two photos) and another at the back as well as some scratch marks near the top (the third photo).  Can anybody think what animal could have done this?  I doubt that it's one of my cats(!) and my husband doubts that they're even bite marks - but I imagine that I can see a row of tooth marks.  Any ideas?
K
Bite marks - front of hive (1).jpg Bite marks - front of hive (4).jpg Bite marks - back of hive (2).jpg

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## drumgerry

Pine marten?  Looks like teeth to me!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

If it is a pine marten, then that would be interesting!  I've never seen one around here - but then, I've never seen badgers either and I know they are here (I've seen the dead ones on the roads).

In either case, I don't know how big their mouths or teeth are.  Your suggestion made me look at some pine marten images, and I thought their front teeth seem to be in a much straighter line than the marks on the hive.  Well, I'm glad you agree with me that the marks do look like teeth marks, Drumgerry!

Kitta

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## Bridget

We have stacks of pine marten here Kitta .  Very fierce little chaps, hated by the game keepers and predators of squirrels and birds eggs and little chicks amongst others.  We have nut boxes for the squirrels and before we had a dog would see them during the day.  Now we just see the reflection of their eyes at night.  
However would they be going after honey bees?  They are meant to love jam so maybe have a sweet tooth!  I've seen mice tooth marks on my polys but much smaller than on your hive.  A mystery indeed.


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## drumgerry

I'm certainly not an expert in teeth marks Kitta!  But I'm sure some of the local wags will be along any minute with some more entertaining suggestions!  Yes I'm looking at you Mr Ramsay!

Re pine martens we've lost a fair few chooks to them and I once had one chasing one of our hens round the garden before it noticed I was trying to scare it off.  Fierce predators indeed.  Not sure about them having a penchant for honey but it wouldn't surprise me.

----------


## alclosier

Badger or fox? Looks like animal bites to me.

----------


## Castor

> Badger or fox? Looks like animal bites to me.



Yeti. Clearly Yeti.

----------


## Jon

Esther Rantzen?

----------


## gavin

Damn!  I was going to ask whether you have toddlers on the loose in Aberdeenshire hills in winter but I've been upstaged already!

Badgers do sometimes try to break into hives.

----------


## gavin

A badger - and many other animals - ought to be showing incisors which appear absent on your new-style Swienty.  Which tends to point back to Jon's suggestion of Ester R.

----------


## alclosier

If it's Aberdeen it could be a feral haggis? I hear they get frisky and territorial around this time of year due to the annual cull.

----------


## chris

I've lost colonies to pine martens. They tend to use their claws rather than their teeth. They'd go through a polyhive in about 10 secs.

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## Bridget

Get a squirrel box up with peanuts Kitta and then maybe they will leave your hives alone.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B002...9KDCRQRQC7N1K5


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## Mellifera Crofter

A pine marten sounds even more terrifying than a yeti!  As my hive is still standing, I hope it's neither of those two.  I haven't spotted Esther Rantzen either.  So, I suppose the culprit is either a badger or a haggis.  Thanks for the suggestions.

Bridget, is the squirrel box intended for a pine marten (which I hope isn't here) or for a badger?

Kitta

----------


## Bridget

The squirrel box goes up in the tree and filled with bird peanuts.  It attracts squirrels during the day and pine marten at night.  Of course whether there are any of either will depend on the trees in your area.  Pines are what's needed


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## GRIZZLY

Ye gods the bees were flying hard today with just a hint of whins pollen coming in. Managed to finish feeding with candy - so far all the colonies are showing activity. high hopes for a good 2015.

----------


## Jon

Yep. Looking good so far.
Very different from Spring 2013 when significant losses had already occurred by February.
There will be a real glut of bees in the UK this year if winter survival has been good all over. (Imaginary neonic armageddon notwithstanding)
UK Colony numbers must have increased greatly in 2014 as the winter 2013/2014 was favourable and the summer in 2014 was the best for years.

----------


## Jimbo

Checked all my colonies today ( should say a quick look under the crown board and a heft). all doing well with no colony losses so far. Some colonies out flying and a small amount of pollen going in. All looking good for 2015


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## Bridget

Agreed all well here though no hint of pollen as the snowdrops are not even out yet.  Bees must have badly needed to fly as barely 5 degrees in the sun so a few bodies in the snow but candy stores still good and still uncapping stores in two hives.


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## greengumbo

Bees flying strongly from my garden hives last four days  :Smile:  Great to see. They are piling onto the aconites and the primula and also perching on mossy stones getting water. 

Only bad news was that the a very small mini-nucs worth of bees is dead. They were weak going into winter and I stupidly thought I could nurse them through and have an early queen ready to go. No great loss but still annoying ! 

I noticed that there are great differences between my two garden hives in terms of flying times. Sun hits them at the same time in the morning but one has been out and about from 9sih and the other not until 12. They are similar strength but different queen lineages so I suspect this has something to do with it.

----------


## busybeephilip

I too am experiencing a lot of water carrying bees, they are raiding my watering cans, bags of peat moss and flower pots that are in the sun shine.  They are ignoring anything in the shade. So far losses are minimal, just 2 hives (4%) - one was very strong in the autumn with a double box treated with thymol apilife var but when i came to do the OA dribble there was no bees in it at all not even dead ones and loads of stores.  The other box was requeened in the autumn but the bees dwindled away with no sign of a queen in the remaining bodies.  My apidae was a goner after the last hard frost even though there was loads of stores in it with the queen laying.  Remaing hives seem to be much stronger than previous years and crownboards are already warm to the touch in the stronger boxes.

Very busy getting things ready for the new season, making foundation, floors, crownboards, single frame queen mating nucs etc for the onslaught of approaching expansion which can go out of control so quickly when your short of kit

----------


## Pete L

> Very busy getting things ready for the new season, making foundation,


Talking about foundation, the solvent (release agent) i bought from Germany and mentioned in the blog, is excellent stuff, bought five liters of it and only needed 90ml so far to make over 5,000 sheets of foundation, so that solvent will be enough to last me a long time.

----------


## busybeephilip

At 5000 (roughly 650lbs wax) sheets youre doing well and at about £1 per sheet youve got your money back already on the rollers.  I make 1000 std brood and 500 shallow, that gives me enough for my own use and to sell some to others.  just wondering, do you dip or roll the blanks?

----------


## Pete L

> do you dip or roll the blanks?


 I make wax tablets, Phil, usually eighteen inches long (460mm) These i make 8mm thick, and then lots of them are stacked into a thermostatically controlled heated water tank, a few hours before being embossed, each tablet produces approx 14 to 15 ft of foundation when embossed, depending on exact thickness and length of tablet used of course.

----------


## busybeephilip

Ahh, we think alike,  I do similar with an old grant waterbath, but i get a shorter foundation length, I make mine 2.4 - 2.5 mm thick (same as thornnnes) this gives 8 std brood to the pound, cut 2-3 sheets at a time with a stanley knife and ply template.   I'd love to get a drone base but they are just to expensive now and i dont think thoornes do them any more.

----------


## Pete L

Yes, i would also like some drone base embossing rollers.

 I did knock up another wiring board last month, one for doing the W pattern type wiring into the foundation, much quicker than the old board, which I've had for many years, and was second hand when i got it.

----------


## drumgerry

I've had this brainwave to set up a Youtube channel and over the course of the season film my beekeeping activities.  One of the things I wanted to do was film the bees on as many types of forage as possible.  Today I started off with the classic....snowdrops!  Please forgive my naff commentary - most embarrassing!

----------


## Castor

> Please forgive my naff commentary - most embarrassing!


****applause!****

Your commentary isn't naff, it's great.
More please!

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## drumgerry

You're being far too kind there Castor but I appreciate it!

----------


## Don Ember

All four of my colonies flying strongly today; snowdrops out across the churchyard a big draw.  Jon may like to hear this news.

----------


## chris

> I've had this brainwave to set up a Youtube channel and over the course of the season film my beekeeping activities.


Over the next couple of months I'll be moving to a more civilized place where I'll be able to access broadband, and for the first time be able to watch videos. I look forward to watching your films. Especially if your spoken word is as sharp as your written one ;-)

----------


## drumgerry

Hi Chris thanks for the compliment...I think!  :Wink:   I suspect the written word has more of a cutting edge but I'm working on it.  Good luck with your move and the getting of a decent internet connection.  Our broadband is barely worthy of the term but there's lots of fibre optic cables being put in around here so we'll be on superfast soon!  Now that I am looking forward to.

----------


## gavin

Lovely video for the traditional February 'bees on snowdrops' theme.  To encourage Chris to get a move on, there's an intriguing accent to discover with the video.  Where did you find that?

----------


## drumgerry

Born and raised in Glasgow (Maryhill).  But surrounded by all these back As in Moray I'm not sounding so Glaswegian any more?!  I can still do a mean ned impression when the moment calls for it though!

----------


## Jon

I'll have to do one with my dulcet tones from Belfast.
Great to see the bees out and about again Gerry.
I would say a few colonies have started brood rearing now.
I have noticed a bit of heat in the crown boards.
The temperature has been rising in the hives at the association apiary which have Arnia monitors inside.

arnia-temperature-autumn.jpg

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## gavin

Thought you were from Glasgow, Gerry, yet there was a northern lilt to some of that I thought.  Nowt wrong with a guy who picks up something of the local ways.  My only foray into Dundonian comes when I'm taking the piss of someone ordering a peh.  There tend to be hundreds of them at United matches so I just keep schtum.

At last I have a day with time on my hands back at base and it turns cold, windy and dreary.

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## drumgerry

You're probably wise to keep your own counsel at the United matches Gavin.  I once took a Scouser to a Celtic match and he insisted on singing very loudly "Matchstalk Cats and Dogs" using the original lyrics - in an ironic way.  We almost didn't get out with our lives!  (for the uninitiated there's a Celtic song to the same tune with er....different lyrics!).

And Jon get filming and narrating!

----------


## Neils

Moved the bees up today despite Gavin's reservations over landrover suspension  :Big Grin: 

That bit went ok apart from screwing my back in but while I was up I had a good look around and there is one hive with clear external signs of Dysentry and a hive with a polycarb board that also has a lot of poo on the top bars and no bees coming to investigate.  This is not looking like a good winter so far, all were fine on new years eve when we treated with OA and slapped on some fondant.

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## GRIZZLY

Signs of dysentry in two of my hives with bees defecating slightly on the hive fronts. I don't think its too sinister - more likely the bees having to put up with temperature shooting up and down and the bees having to overwinter on pollen rich honey filling the bees with solid material. The fouling was very watery and full of pollen residue. Anyway its too cold still to go into the hives for even a brief look-see.

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## Pete L

> Spent the weekend down in Dumfries-shire being taught II by Michael Collier.  Now there's a man with some stories to tell!  Brilliant to see and try the whole process from beginning to end.  Loads of stuff the Cobey video doesn't even mention.  Learned about the limitations of the instrument I bought (Schley with fixed posts) but working with Michael to solve that problem.  Going to need to practice lots and lots to get even semi competent.  
> 
> Brilliant weekend and highly recommended.  Michael is a top guy and if you're buying kit get it from him and take advantage of the great advice he'll give you.


Gerry, how about a progress report, interested in how well you got along doing II after your return from the course.

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## drumgerry

Ah Pete I decided not to proceed with my II plans.  The more I got to know the less approriate it seemed for my circumstances.  I had no idea of the time and commitment it requires and my circumstances just aren't suitable for that.  Plus I live in an area where natural mating within strain is pretty good as there are few beekeepers and lots of natural obstructions in the form of bloody great mountains.  So...I'd have been better thinking about all that before I bought the kit but you live and learn.  As it is I've sold it on to a friend of Gavin's who is keen as mustard and who I'm sure will do the subject justice.  Thanks for the advice and all the best,  Gerry

----------


## Castor

Good News! <In a James May sort of voice>
All 14 mine have now been checked - 100% survival, just about the right level of stores left, no evidence of nosema, all looking feisty and pulling in some pollen...

I love this time of year...lots of plans and decisions to be made...

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## Jon

Seems to have been another good winter for bees. A lot of my nucs are over 4 or 5 frames which is great for this time of year.

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## mbc

> Good News! 
> 
> I love this time of year...lots of plans and decisions to be made...


+1
I'm trying to sketch out some of my plans on paper this year, as in the past the well laid out plans have gone out of the window as soon as things get busy!

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## GRIZZLY

MBC you'd best start by teaching your bees to read.

----------


## Poly Hive

Went to the bes this afternoon, temp at 12C in glorious sunshine with avery light breeze. The bee tree has survived the winter and was flying a bit. The hives though were roaring, major orientation flights going on and the only slight disapointment was no pollen seen arriving. The crocus is out now so hopefully they will find it soon.

PH

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## Wmfd

A nice time spent in the garage, even better with the wind and rain outside, putting together:
One commercial brood (3rd from the T's sale)Two supers (2nds from the T's sale)Two commercial nuc box OMF's (own design from bits and pieces in the garage)

Part of my, I must be better organised, resolution!

----------


## GRIZZLY

I hope everything went together O.K. Wmfd., I bought 6 off 2nds nat b.boxes  and was only able to construct 5 .   Seems to be a total lack of any sort of quality control. Boards with missing edges ., top and bottom bars with deep gouges and missing edges and - worst of all made from undried soaking wet timber. I have got a moisture meter and measured the moisture level at 30 0/0 - about 3 times what it should measure. When I tackled one of Thorne directors about it  - was fobbed of with a telephone "shrug" and the comment well it goes together doesn't it ? . Not good enough in my estimation. They actually refunded me for the hive I couldn't put together but still a disgrace. I just wonder what sort of shape the hives will adopt after drying out in my workshop

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## Wmfd

Thanks Grizzly, 

The supers have gone together pretty well, and the wood isn't wet.  After an unfortunate incident with parallelogram supers a few years ago I've made up a jig to make sure they are square and they look pretty good.  I even managed to get another together after we'd been out to watch "Shaun the Sheep" at the cinema - so three more to add to the pile.

The brood was a different story, the finger joints were too tight, stripping wood off as I put together and a knot in one corner, so the corner came apart.  I've glued it back together, put in extra screws and fortunately it isn't in a particularly load bearing place, so fingers crossed it'll be OK.

A pile of national brood thirds from the sale is my next challenge.  I had some thirds supers in the year before last, and they were very variable, very wet wood, bendy and a lot of filler required.  I've yet to open these, so we'll see. I thought they were supers when I grabbed them in the scrum at the sale, so I'm going to need to make up some Hamilton converters which may allow me to cover a multitude of sins, or make some.  By the time I'm finished I'm not sure how much of a bargain they're going to turn out to be!

David

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## busybeephilip

I did not buy any this year or last from T but the year before that I got a load from T that seemed to fit together ok and did not have many knots.  Also bought a load from Maisymore that same year, they went together with no problem and even though they were pine the quality was perfect with very little warping of the side boards.  I now have the equipment to make my own and just have to finish making a few jigs.

It appears from the posts above that T is perhaps not able to purchase decent cedar timber that they use for making "seconds" so as to keep the price at a minimum after all they are in the game of making money with perhaps at least 50% profit to cover overheads.  Also the best of the seconds is likely to be kept for shows and the maybe the crap posted out to vulnerable beeks.  The cedar does not seem to be as dense as was used years ago and I have had some of my recent T cedar seconds starting to rott along the bottoms even though they were cuprinol treated.  The timber is soft seems to soak up water while other older boxes which are a bit dented and knocked about show no sign of rotting or softening of the wood

Does anyone make frames from planks of deal - given the correct jigs it would seem to be a fairly simple process apart from time taken.  Considering that they are about £1 (ex sale) it is perhaps becoming worthwhile

Phil the Beekeeper

----------


## Pete L

> Does anyone make frames from planks of deal - given the correct jigs it would seem to be a fairly simple process apart from time taken.  Considering that they are about £1 (ex sale) it is perhaps becoming worthwhile


We use either Scots/Corsican pine, also used Western Hemlock for a few years now, found that white wood such as Norway spruce to be not much use, due to being too weak/soft in use and too much warping of the frames.
Does not take long to make frames if using enough dedicated machines and jigs for each operation in the process.
Filled a kiln with Hemlock for frame making last Friday, boys are out saw milling up the last of five large Hemlocks for frame making right now.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Filled a kiln with Hemlock for frame making last Friday, boys are out saw milling up the last of five large Hemlocks for frame making right now.[/QUOTE]

Nice to have a kiln. I had one down south when I was in the bespoke furniture business ( dehumidifier type ) and it was worth its weight in gold. Thornes have not got one it would seem -  based on the wet rubbish they are currently turning out. English cedar is not really fit for purpose ., its full of knots - quite a lot of of them dead knots that rot and fall out.  Making frames is very simple as long as you do a whole large batch operation by operation. If you have several machines you can set up several operations at once., passing the components to each successive machine in turn.

----------


## Pete L

> English cedar is not really fit for purpose ., its full of knots - quite a lot of of them dead knots that rot and fall out.


Some very good English grown WRC can be found, but you need to select your own trees...not just order 20 tonnes from the likes of euro forrest. Timber needs to be as old as possible, slow grown, large diameter, small growth rings, preferably from on top of hills rather than fast growing in swampy valley bottoms. The first 12ft section or butt section is the best, the heartwood only, this is often very clear timber with no knots, further up the smaller diameter timber is used mainly for side bars, avoiding using anything with knots, especially dead knots. The white sapwood which i notice in the pictures of some of suppliers of cheap cedar hives, should not be used at all, it is not durable like the heartwood.




> Making frames is very simple as long as you do a whole large batch operation by operation.


I agree, we make enough for our own needs between 15 to 20,000 each season, although last season being what it was had to make another 3,000... about two thirds of the way through the season.

Edit, i believe another reason for the more knotty timber being used by many that just order a load of cedar, is that many commercial sawmills don't want to mill these very large butt sections because they tend to have a lot of large flutes, making it awkward for the sawmills, nice round logs from higher up the tree are much easier and faster to mill...and more knotty.

----------


## gavin

Brilliant to have such expertise on tap.  Thanks Pete.

----------


## SteveW316

Just too cold and windy here today!!

----------


## prakel

Noticed that Mann Lake have added their National/Hybrid/WBC/Commercial boxes to their UK website as well as 8 frame langstroths and some price revisions on the langstroth boxes. Worth a look...

----------


## mbc

I've got the sparkly new catalogue  :Smile: 
Some interesting stuff too, waxed cardboard nuc boxes for a fiver.
Got a sample of the "standard" supers too, not very impressed with the quality of timber, maisemores and thrones do better "seconds" for £1.50 more.

----------


## prakel

> I've got the sparkly new catalogue


We're still waiting for the 2014 one!

Shame if the quality is so poor.

----------


## prakel

Not really today's news but could someone point me to the thread which was posted a year or so ago that links to an online mapping programme that draws a radius around a certain point such as an apiary site (I'm not referring to beebase)?

----------


## gavin

> Not really today's news but could someone point me to the thread which was posted a year or so ago that links to an online mapping programme that draws a radius around a certain point such as an apiary site (I'm not referring to beebase)?


Here you go: http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...-maps-Obeattie

----------


## prakel

Thanks. Couldn't remember it's name.

----------


## Castor

3 miles is enormous...... I really hadn't realised......

----------


## Poly Hive

7.and a bit square miles I think, making the odd plot of flowers in  a garden a bit....
Then again mony a mickle maks a muckle.

PH

----------


## busybeephilip

Hi Pete,

Probably a bit off thread her but I was wondering how many beekeepers wire the frames instead of the foundation.  wiring frames gives stronger support than the diagonal thorne type wiring I ask cos I was wondering how easy is it to recyle wired frames.

Still trying to figure out how the thornes foundation wiring machine (yellow box in new catalog) works

----------


## Pete L

Hi Phil, i have always used the wired foundation, just that i dislike having to wire frames, plus we sell some ready assembled frames in our beehives, and i would not like the idea of wiring all the frames and fitting foundation to sell. 

Not figured out how the modern type wiring machine works in the single picture, but the one at the top where they are using four wiring boards are similar to what we use...except ours is better and faster than that method, ours actually tensions the wire and heats the wire just by pressing a foot pedal, and a red indicator light comes on, on the face of the board, to indicate the circuit is complete, no separate switch to press like those in the picture.

----------


## busybeephilip

Pete - have sent you a message

----------


## Wmfd

Visited my out hives yesterday, a lovely sunny day but mixed feelings. Two hives dead, one had blown over and hit the other  some weeks ago but there were still bees in both when I righted them at that time. 

I've concluded that it is largely beekeeper error. The site is just too exposed really, lovely in summer but too little shelter against the flat fenland wind.   So blaming myself for the losses.

Moving the other hives alongside back home to shelter in the garden, so may help their buildup. 

Other hives, which were less exposed, looking good. 

David

----------


## Calum

yup, the bees were flying strongly and getting loads of pollen yesterday here too.
One that wasnt gathering pollen -checked - no queen, only two frames of bees, no eggs... so in with the sulphur strip unfortunately.
18 good from 19 is a good result. My two apprentices have no losses so far so smiles all round.

----------


## Poly Hive

FWIW I never recycled wired frames apart from stripping the wax and wire out and starting over. I used four horizontal wires in Lang and three in Nat, brood that is.

PH

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## Calluna4u

Quite so PH.

Gavin saw a stack here this morning. Have two guys cleaning out 70 boxes a day in about 3 hours (then the water/soda mix gets too dirty) ready for immediate rewaxing. 

Initial cost of cross wiring the frames is significant, but so is the premium for wired foundation, and you get a stronger flatter job than with diagonally wired foundation. It takes my guys about 25 minutes to cross wire a box of frames, but you have to add to that about 10 minutes for drilling and eyeletting  if not previously done (one of our guys made a jig for doing this four eyelets at a time, so its fast). Once done (and you need to use very good grade wire that does not stretch), certain circumstances excepted, then its done for many years. Saves at least 20 minutes a box every time you renew the wax. 

After the boil clean the rewaxing job only takes about 10 minutes per box, including retensioning the wires if needed. If the frames are very strong the retensioning is less likely to be needed.

The wax is also significantly cheaper. Own wax milled by 'T' this spring, immaculate job btw, cut to our special slightly undersize dimensions (you do NOT go into the grooves or bottom bars with this system) works out at 11p a sheet (excl VAT), of course for a like for like comparison you have to factor in the value of the wax.

We use four wires in BS deep rather than your three, but apart from that its the same. We just value the extra strength for extracting ling honey.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ... (you do NOT go into the grooves or bottom bars with this system) ...


Does anyone know if one can get National frames without grooves?  
Kitta

----------


## fatshark

Reverse the side bars ... voila!

----------


## Calluna4u

> Does anyone know if one can get National frames without grooves?  
> Kitta


Not from UK makers as a standard, but they can take some off before the groove is cut into them, as it is generally a separate operation. Just reversing the side bars leaves the 'V' pointing the wrong way if you have Hoffman type, and are going to have a mix of UK conventional and prewired frames. It is also best to get bottom bars for Manley style frames for the cross wiring way of working rather than the simple straight bottoms. The notched end gives the side bar something solid to push against  when the wires are truly taut. The corners breaking out can be an issue otherwise. Thus you will gather that DN1 and SN1 type frames are never used here.

Talking at CABA on Friday so if anyone want this demonstrated then happy to do so.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Thank you, Fatshark and Calluna.  I was blushing blood red, Fatshark, until I saw Calluna mentioning the Hoffman issue.  I guess my mentor will also tell me that reversing the bars will still leave a groove for wax moths to make use of (not that I've ever had a wax moth problem).

I would have loved to come to the talk, Calluna, but unfortunately I won't have the time and, secondly, I don't have a clue which BA starts with CA!  I only found American ones.
Kitta

----------


## gavin

> I would have loved to come to the talk, Calluna, but unfortunately I won't have the time and, secondly, I don't have a clue which BA starts with CA!  I only found American ones.
> Kitta


Well worth the 190km journey (as the crow flies).  If you are really lucky he might teach you a few choice Polish words, as he did with me earlier tonight.  :Wink:  

Clyde Area Beekeepers Association, as far as I know an umbrella group for the associations in the Glasgow area.

----------


## fatshark

> Thank you, Fatshark and Calluna.  I was blushing blood red, Fatshark, until I saw Calluna mentioning the Hoffman issue.


I _think_ I'd assumed you'd do the entire box … but, like top beespace, you'd not be compatible with others (or presumably any of your own frames) who didn't do the same thing … which I didn't think of so am also blushing. D'oh!

----------


## Calluna4u

> Well worth the 190km journey (as the crow flies).  If you are really lucky he might teach you a few choice Polish words, as he did with me earlier tonight.  
> 
> Clyde Area Beekeepers Association, as far as I know an umbrella group for the associations in the Glasgow area.


Spot on Gavin. Its a rearranged date after an inadvertant mix up over dates. I was booked for 10th, but the hall for 17th, however I have a previously arranged talk to give in South Gloucestershire on 17th, so a quick bit of footwork by both them and us fixed up the talk for Friday 13th.

Jolanta is going too to take some questions about the queen and nuc breeding project, which is her responsibility. Brave of her as she is not 100% confident in English yet, has never been in front of an audience before, as there is the potential for the odd awkward, even hostile, question or two from that particular audience.

They are a great group though, and intelligent questions flow freely from the floor, which I especially enjoy. Been there several times over the years and they have been up to our place. They have a summer trip booked to the breeding unit, though it is still in its early stages of development.

----------


## drumgerry

Calluna - is it possible for other associations to visit your breeding unit?  I'm secretary of Spey Beekeepers which is a pretty new association.

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## Calluna4u

Yes of course. I also take heather visits, so those associations nearby (or not so nearby sometimes) can see what we are doing and that we don't have 3 heads or anything, nor are a major threat to them.

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## drumgerry

If you don't mind I'll PM you about this  - I agree it's better to put mistrust aside and the best way to do that is face to face.  And I'm delighted to see commercial beekeepers enacting their own breeding programme.  A truly progressive step in my opinion.

----------


## Calum

Balls just been voted onto the association committee 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## gavin

> Balls just been voted onto the association committee 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What about the rest of you?   :Embarrassment: 

It is a slippery slope.  Before you know it you'll be running forums and spending your days in meetings with government.

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## Calluna4u

Thank you for the warm reception last night at the CABA meeting in Scotstoun. As usual a lively audience and lots of very pertinent questions..............and not many impertinent ones <G>. It could probably have gone on for several hours....

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## Calum

> What about the rest of you?  
> 
> It is a slippery slope.  Before you know it you'll be running forums and spending your days in meetings with government.


lol, thanks, yes the rest of me too.
Now trying to negotiate a site for our beekeeper training from the local government (they can shine/greenwash a bit in the newspaper by letting us infest a scrap of land)
want to try to set up beekeeping lessons for refugees in the area as a form of therapy, and to help them meet people from the community/ intergrate.
and maybe revamp the association website with more information....

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## gavin

Brilliant ideas, particularly like the refugees idea.  And I'm glad that they have taken you on intact ...

C4U - glad you got out alive.  I think that one them reserved his feistiness for seeing me on Saturday at the SBA AGM.

Yesterday on the way to the Cup Final (thanks to me being a passenger rather than driver) I saw my first willow trees of the season in full bloom near that patch of land that tends to flood east of Auchterarder.  I always take that as a sign that spring has finally arrived, more or less.

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## Calluna4u

> C4U - glad you got out alive.  I think that one them reserved his feistiness for seeing me on Saturday at the SBA AGM.


Puts on angelic hat and innocent look................       I wonder who you mean Gavin. Plainly I have no idea.

Maybe I got them fired up on Friday night about a particular topic of a coleopteran nature...........sorry!

Nice about the willows though. I have over 100 hives wintering not a country mile from that very spot...if its the same one. Bottom of Cairnie Braes where the A9 crosses the Earn.

Off in an hour or so headed south. Got a talk near Bristol tonight (South Gloucs BKA) then back to Cirencester, where we have about 180 colonies wintering on an estate nearby.

----------


## gavin

> Bottom of Cairnie Braes where the A9 crosses the Earn.


That's the place.  Didn't spot them again when passing yesterday but it is not so easy when you're driving.  (yes, football again - don't ask!)  Willows, like sycamore and some other trees, tend to have different individual flowering times rather than everything coming in one rush. A reasonable strategy when your pollination is done by selective far-flying insects. 

Hope you were spreading the gospel in Gloucs that we're heading for a new era in beekeeping where the watch-words are sustainability, biosecurity, self-reliance, and home production of stocks?   :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Jon

> Hope you were spreading the gospel in Gloucs that we're heading for a new era in beekeeping where the watch-words are sustainability, biosecurity, self-reliance, and home production of stocks?


That and irony!

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## Calluna4u

> Hope you were spreading the gospel in Gloucs that we're heading for a new era in beekeeping where the watch-words are sustainability, biosecurity, self-reliance, and home production of stocks?


Lol. You would think that, in all the years it has been thought of, that if it was truly feasible it would have been done long ago. Your list illustrates the main reason it has not been done. All good secure sounding words...................but without one other word added in it is eternally doomed to either failure, or bees to be essentially an amateur conservation project..................viability. It has just not been a viable option, except at amateur level. If it can be made viable then there is a chance, until then it just an enthusiasts dream.

Jolanta was there too, and we DID tell them as a footnote to the talk, about the queens and nucs project. We were perfectly frank about what the project was, and what it was not. When we said it was NOT a black bee breeding project the gasp from the hall was audible, closely followed by a collective 'thank god for that!'. Seems they too just wanted sound working bees rather than any special race, and most certainly not further evangelisation about A.m.m. As you very well know it has a place in our work, but we most definitely do not want it pure.

Sunday 15th June, put it in your diary to come up to my place Gavin. That's the date of the CABA bus trip. Your help will be most welcome as I got a note from Mhairi yesterday to say demand is huge for places.

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## gavin

You show me yours and I'll show you mine!

Just heading off to Ulster (now that the eclipse is nearly safely out of the way ).

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## Jon

Good view of the eclipse in Belfast.

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## GRIZZLY

> Good view of the eclipse in Belfast.


Luck of the Irish !., caught a glimpse  just as the clouds thinned a bit (10 seconds worth ) Went quite dusky tho'. Bees have been flying well the last couple of days with stacks of pollen coming in which is a welcome sight.

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## mbc

> It has just not been a viable option, except at amateur level. If it can be made viable then there is a chance, until then it just an enthusiasts dream.


I would say there are enough of us doing it to prove it is viable, maybe no one on your level Calluna, but there are plenty of smaller operations which do not buy in bees or queens, ever, and yet they remain in business and somehow the crazed enthusiasts at the helm make a living.
I would agree that many more colonies can be managed if replacement bees are sourced from outside, but the rewards for being flexible about seasonal numbers and raising ones own replacement stock are long term imho.

Magic eclipse here, seen through a river fog, no need for fancy protective glasses.

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## Calluna4u

> but there are plenty of smaller operations which do not buy in bees or queens, ever, and yet they remain in business and somehow the crazed enthusiasts at the helm make a living.
> .


Oh yes indeed. But.......Some of those making the strongest statements that way also buy bees.......from me. All to be kept hush hush apart from to the authorities. Even as I finished at Perth a few months ago, when the vote to ask for an import ban to be explored was passed, at least three of those I KNOW had their hands up to support it spoke to me quietly even before we left the venue, they wanted packages, and several more of them wanted queens. The imported ones of course. Secret layby rendezvous after meeting so no-one sees etc etc...........you would be very surprised...especially at some of the names that buy queens.

If your living depends on it you cannot take heavy losses.....and they sometimes happen despite the best of care...................followed by tiny crops for a year or two..........which also happens.............unless you have outside support.

But then maybe most do not give a jot about the widespread availability of UK honey, or the fact that even some of the bigger bee farmers have to get tax credits. The local bee is tough, but mostly its a survivor rather than a living earner.

You cannot rely on our weather....hence we are going for a twin track approach, maximise our own breeding effort, but have emergency supplies available to top up with.

I think the black bee movement are too closely following eachother and deciding on that basis that the demand is there, and that is what everyone wants, but as I told people last year, I managed to obtain a supply of very nice A.m.m., because, as is so obvious, everyone wants it. However when there were orders for 1200 Buckfast and carnica, and only 70 A.m.m., and I suffered the embarrassment of having to cancel bees from a great source because not enough people wanted them. I had been assured demand was huge.

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## greengumbo

Bees oot and on the last of the crocus today  :Smile:  

Anyone have bees flying at 930 that rushed back in during eclipse ? Hear it happens during sudden thunderstorms if the bees are out foraging.

Bees are devouring pollen patties at the moment and a peek between frames showed at least one frame had a big patch of sealed brood.

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## EmsE

After moving my last 2 hives to their new site yesterday, it's time to have a wee peek in each hive to check everything's ok. One hive I moved yesterday had an unwelcome lodging mouse which the bees killed and I got rid of it from the floorboard which made them much happier. Its a lovely day here so planning to check the frames away from where the cluster is to replace any damaged ones. Not sure if there is anything else I should do to get rid of anything nasty that the mouse could have done / left behind?
A tip for anyone moving bees with an open mesh floor- put a couple of new drawing pins in the back of the floor to hold the mesh in place just in case the old drawing pins choose the journey to break and let the bees out!

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## Pete L

> A tip for anyone moving bees with an open mesh floor- put a couple of new drawing pins in the back of the floor to hold the mesh in place just in case the old drawing pins choose the journey to break and let the bees out!


Drawing pins, who constructs mesh floors using drawing pins?

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## EmsE

That's what they supplied to pin the mesh to the wood at the back. Thinking those hooked nails (don't know what they're called) would be much more secure.

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## Pete L

Yes, staples, would be better, or even better construction with the mesh sandwiched between two layers of timber which is glued and nailed.

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## gavin

Brilliant to see you back Ems, and to see that you are getting your bees settled into a new home.  Yes, the cheapo drawing pin mesh fixing wasn't such a great idea on those floors, I have a few like that.

I'm in Belfast staying with Jon for a few nights after the UBKA convention.  He's sitting opposite me catching up with the sport and the weather on his tablet  :Smile: .

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## The Drone Ranger

> Good view of the eclipse in Belfast.


We watched it with welding masks on  :Smile:

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## Feckless Drone

Interesting reading in Science this week Goulson review - http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6229/1255957.full

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## gavin

> Interesting reading in Science this week Goulson review - http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6229/1255957.full


Behind a paywall for those of us not in academic institutions  :Smile: . 

I see from the abstract that one thing he's calling for is 'enforcing effective quarantine measures on bee movements'.  Amen to that!

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## Feckless Drone

[QUOTE=gavin;29547]Behind a paywall for those of us not in academic institutions  :Smile: . 

Sorry, gave the game away!
I'm sure an email to g.goulson@sussex.ac.uk with a request for a pdf would get a copy.

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## greengumbo

> Behind a paywall for those of us not in academic institutions . 
> 
> I see from the abstract that one thing he's calling for is 'enforcing effective quarantine measures on bee movements'.  Amen to that!


Moraybeedinosaurs have it up on their website from the original online release data a month ago:

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/n...%20flowers.pdf

I actually think this is a fairly unbiased and reasonable review paper. The press seemed to go big on it -NEONICS BAD FOR BEEs - but actually its a lot more nuanced than those headlines suggest. 

Guardian had pics of honeybees not bumblers in their recent story about it.....and didn't mention honeybees in the article.

Bloomin' arts and humanities trained journos  :Wink:

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## brothermoo

Yesterday's news... 3hour intermediate exam and im now glad that the time for books and study is over and the actual beekeeping is beginning.  Roll on the good weather!!

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## mbc

> I think the black bee movement are too closely following eachother and deciding on that basis that the demand is there, and that is what everyone wants, but as I told people last year, I managed to obtain a supply of very nice A.m.m., because, as is so obvious, everyone wants it. However when there were orders for 1200 Buckfast and carnica, and only 70 A.m.m., and I suffered the embarrassment of having to cancel bees from a great source because not enough people wanted them. I had been assured demand was huge.


This post has been sitting in the back of my mind bugging me as it just doesn't seem right as its obvious there is a quite big ( in British beekeeping terms) groundswell of interest in native bees, then it occurred to me, these beekeepers interested in native bees are also those interested in sustainability and breeding their own stock, therefore the lack of interest in buying in masses of queens, of however good a provenance, from outside.

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## gavin

Just a note to say that I've elevated the posts on Swiss small hive beetle worries to their own thread here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...in-Switzerland

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## greengumbo

Snow on the ground again today  :Frown:  

Bees were motoring along nicely guzzling down light syrup and pollen patties. 

I am guessing the first round of CSI pollen collections by Magnus are going to yield very little pollen this weekend. I have duck-tapes my traps onto the hives but in the open position for now. No sign of bees in this weather.

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## Jon

I have not put mine on yet. No point until Saturday I think.

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## Jimbo

Put my traps on yesterday in the open position 
Lots of flying activity and nice bright yellow pollen coming in
Going to close the traps today but the weather is not looking so good so not expecting a large amount of pollen for this collection period
Last year I kept the excess pollen in a freezer and used some to make my own pollen patties The rest of the excess pollen I sent to beesinthezoo to feed his beetles?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Calluna4u

Beautiful weather today...................loads of pollen, especially willow and elm, and bees very active.

So.........the lure of the hive tool and the queen paint proved too strong so went out for about an hour and a quarter and got into some hives.

Very different story to that related by several on the various forums. (Suspect some high peeing contests been going on.)

Not a lot of brood. A few patches of sealed brood about the size of the palm of my hand in most, and a reasonable area of eggs surrounding it. Heavy with stores and abundant pollen. Less bees than I would have liked to see.

Opened 24 colonies (most of them the Amm type) and found the following;- 

0 Drone layers
0 Queenless
1 Virgin queen (freshly emerged emergency QC)
2 2012 queens, yellow
6 2013 queens, red
13 2014 queens, marked green today
2 dead (just dwindled)

All hives probably have too much food in the core area and the brood is concentrated in the front four inches or so of the combs.
Supering at least 4 weeks away and swarming will be at least 6 weeks. No drone brood whatsoever, not even eggs. Suspect the VQ will transform into a loss as there was not one drone seen for her to mate with.

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## Pete L

> Not a lot of brood. A few patches of sealed brood about the size of the palm of my hand in most, and a reasonable area of eggs surrounding it. Heavy with stores and abundant pollen. Less bees than I would have liked to see.


 Nice weather here in the south as well, also plenty of willow in flower, few fields of OSR in flower, dandelions, wild garlic, and many other useful flowers. 
Plenty of bees and brood, including drone brood and young drones already emerged in many colonies, but this is a very different climate than Scotland, it is even very different here within just a few miles from out over the moors and higher elevations, about three weeks earlier in this valley, and we move colonies out over the hills for what is like a second spring with regards forage, flowers finish here, and are just starting to flower out over.

Galloway always looked like a good area for bees to me, when we have been touring around in the camper van years ago.

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## gavin

> Beautiful weather today..............


From your competitor down the hill  :Smile: 

I'd add Prunus pollen to that list.  Cherry plums are either going over or in full flower.  The odd dandelion.

T-shirt weather and I was actually a little hot in the cotton smock in the sunshine.  Bees on up to 12 frames - some stronger than I'd expected, others weaker, certainly stronger than the association apiary which I went through superficially yesterday.  Brood on 4-5 frames in the strongest but most have about two frames and are on the front half of the frames only (frames at rt angles to the entrance).  Plenty of eggs.

1 Drone layer - died out in late Feb.
0 Queenless
1 2013 queen
1 queen not found (I'll get her next time)
5 2014 queens, green, one painted today and the others last autumn

A little sealed drone brood in the strongest colonies but hardly enough for that virgin queen of C4U's.

Amm-leaning stock of various levels of purity.  One colony (visually the least pure at the site) pinged and followed - noted for early queen replacement.  Even though I was out for a while no peeing on the wall was required, at any height.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Watched a few waggle dances and they were going surprisingly far.  One just over 5 secs in the straight run, so going over 5 km therefore west of Glencarse.

Fantastic skies.  Great spotted woodpeckers drumming.  Amorous mallards flying about recklessly.  Magic.

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## Calluna4u

Come on then Gavin. One hive was bringing bright blue pollen. What the heck is that in early April? A brighter blue  than willowherb.

No prunus or cherry near the place I was working......only other white pollen would be from some later butterbur.

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## Jon

Great to have the 2015 season kick off.
I intend to do a lot of clipping and marking tomorrow if the weather is as good as predicted.
I have had a quick look in a lot of colonies and don't expect to lose anymore at this point.
Losses are under 10% this year which is great. 
I also have 7 or 8 queens which overwintered in double apideas which can sort out any problem I might encounter.
I also have a couple of 2012 queens still on the go and those ones are likely worth taking a few grafts from as they survived that wipeout winter of 2012-2013 and are still going strong.
Some of my overwintered nucs are weaker than I would like and have only got a couple of frames of bees but they all have a laying queen laying normal worker brood pattern so will pick up from this point on. I was looking at a few of these with Gavin a fortnight ago.
A few of the bigger colonies have sealed drone brood so grafting should be ok from early May onwards.

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## Jon

blue pollen this time of year is likely siberian squill

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## Calluna4u

Scilla? You get a few of them here but this was in a forest site a long way from any buildings, and we had a fair amount of it in my fathers garden when I was a boy and never noticed the pollen was blue (the garden was over an acre and a 'fair amount' would be several thousand plants, but swamped by the amount of Chionodoxa on the same ground). Learn something every day. This was full bright blue loads, and the whole pollen arc was like the Ukraine flag...half blue half yellow......should have taken a pic.

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## Jon

The only blue pollen I ever see is the rosebay willowherb from July onwards. It's not a common colour for pollen so I reckon it has to be the other.

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## drumgerry

18/19C here in Speyside and like lots of you it seems my season properly got under way today with my first full inspections.  Losses low again - just the one - although I have a few that are still not needing moved out of their nucs.  Strongest on 4 or 5 frames of brood.  Weakest on just the one.  Willow in full swing here and the bees are working it hard along with any bushes of flowering currant they can find.  Took a bit of honey off that I had left on as feed last autumn as I had left it a bit late with those colonies.  Will be odd to be extracting this coming week!

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## brecks

Ceanothus pollen is bright blue, but I think the earliest flowering varieties are in late Spring.

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## gavin

> Scilla?


Yup, I get some near Errol and there are usually scattered blue cells at this time of year.  It can naturalise in woods usually beside old houses.  Not sure what colour Chinodoxa pollen is but I have some at my front door so could perhaps find out tomorrow.  For arcs of the stuff you'd need a big area.  

You could of course watch the waggle dances to work out where they're going - more likely early in the foraging day.  There ought to be a few dancers carrying pollen.

Phacelia also has blue pollen.  This isn't the season for it, but it is used as autumn green manure so just maybe it survived to flowering.  Get Jolanta to check it out - I understand she has the technology!

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## Calluna4u

definitely not the phacelia colour.........this was almost royal blue, perhaps even a little lighter. Chionodoxa pollen is white if I recall correctly.

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## GRIZZLY

quick re-house of my most active colony. To my surprise they have 8 frames of brood and eggs. Stacks of stores-honey and pollen around the brood and I had to remove a complete super of sealed honey. I'm sure I didn't leave it on last year so they must have filled the super late in the season with something.( very late Sept / Oct.) after I had finished extracting . Rest of the colonies very active with stacks of pollen. Going thro' the rest tomorrow.
Black bees very active Jon - often when there is no activity from the rest.

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## Jon

Mine were very active this afternoon.
I clipped 15 queens and still have a few more to do in colonies I have at home.
One bugger got away from me. I spotted her on a frame but she got back down into the box when I set it down and I couldn't be bothered going through the frames again.
She is already marked so I'll clip next time I am at the apiary.

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## gavin

> definitely not the phacelia colour.........this was almost royal blue, perhaps even a little lighter. Chionodoxa pollen is white if I recall correctly.


You're right, it _is_ spelled Chionodoxa  :Smile: .  The ones outside have bright yellow pollen.

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## Castor

What is the 0-60 time of a queen that doesn't want to be caught?

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## prakel

> Nice weather here in the south as well, also plenty of willow in flower, few fields of OSR in flower, dandelions, wild garlic, and many other useful flowers. 
> Plenty of bees and brood, including drone brood and young drones already emerged in many colonies, but this is a very different climate than Scotland, it is even very different here within just a few miles from out over the moors and higher elevations, about three weeks earlier in this valley, and we move colonies out over the hills for what is like a second spring with regards forage, flowers finish here, and are just starting to flower out over.


Similar here, good drone emergence already (noted slabs of drone on 10th of March -I know, I'm a terrible beekeeper...). As of yesterday some pretty forward colonies but these are inland; always much further ahead at this time of year than the coastal apiaries. All other things being equal I reckon that it must be the result of wind attrition on the plants. There's also a marked difference (as usual) between the dadants and the single body bs with the few Farrar style hives being closer to the md's than they are the bs.

No pee-ing contests necessary in this area, at least, not after the 1st of March!

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## gavin

> So.........the lure of the hive tool and the queen paint proved too strong so went out for about an hour and a quarter and got into some hives.
> 
> ......
> 
> Opened 24 colonies (most of them the Amm type) and found the following ...............


Took me an hour and a half to go through 12 colonies ... hmnnn.   Found all 12 queens and marked and clipped the 5 that hadn't been done.  Colonies here are generally weaker than at my own site (this is the association apiary).  Many at 5-6 frames of bees and 2-3 frames with brood.  But they've been packing out the comb with pollen and look like accelerating away before long.

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## Jon

I clipped the one that escaped from me on Monday this afternoon.
Colonies are very variable this year. Some are very big already and others like you describe on 5-6 frames of bees. 
5-6 frames of bees is not unusual for early April.
There is still next to no nectar available this far north so not much point in having a huge colony so early.
Dandelion has really come on this past coupe of days though.

----------


## gavin

> I clipped the one that escaped from me on Monday this afternoon.
> Colonies are very variable this year. Some are very big already and others like you describe on 5-6 frames of bees. 
> 5-6 frames of bees is not unusual for early April.
> There is still next to no nectar available this far north so not much point in having a huge colony so early.
> Dandelion has really come on this past coupe of days though.


Recalling that one frame of brood gives two frames of bees, and that the old bees in the colonies are still dying off, colonies with 5/6 frames of bees and perhaps the equivalent of two frames of brood will:

- in two weeks have perhaps 8 frames of bees and hopefully 4-5 frames of brood, which, if the weather is OK
- in two further weeks will have a full brood box with bees to spare for a super 8+(6-1)=13

_Assumptions_:
First two weeks: four frames of freshly hatched bees, one frame of bees dying off.
Next two weeks: two thirds of a full cycle so three brood frames emerging gives 6 frames of extra bees with one more frame of bees dying off.

If the weather and forage cooperates.  So, these naive assumptions above suggest supers may go on them in about three weeks or a bit earlier, and that any spring honey crop will not commence until about four weeks from now.

The rape here has galloped along in the last week and fields could be in full flower in about a week.  So most colonies might miss more than half of the rape season.  If the best part of the rape season is early, they'll miss any crop from the rape.

I'm half expecting Murray to return to tell us that he's now been through imported genotype stocks and found that they are *much* stronger!

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## prakel

> The rape here has galloped along in the last week and fields could be in full flower in about a week.  So most colonies might miss more than half of the rape season.  If the best part of the rape season is early, they'll miss any crop from the rape.
> 
> I'm half expecting Murray to return to tell us that he's now been through imported genotype stocks and found that they are *much* stronger!


Lets hope so, it would be sad to think of all that rape being lost.

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## gavin

A couple of my own will definitely be up to gathering strength very soon - one with 12 frames of bees now.  Local dark-ish bees.

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## Jon

I haven't seen any Rape growing near any of my apiaries this year. I wonder has less been planted due to the seed coating ban.
There was never too much in my area anyway.
Mine collect a bit of nectar from the Dandelion in April and then the main flow seems to be sycamore in the last fortnight if May.
June gap follows then there is another flow in July.

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## prakel

Seems to be the usual amount growing in this area -with about 40 acres, at a guess, yellowing-up just over the hedge of the apiary I had chance to look at on Tuesday. Certainly no noticeably obvious difference in acreage.

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## greengumbo

Finally went through two hives in the apiary away from my garden this morning. One had 3 frames of brood in patches about hand sized and lots of eggs. A few emerging bees as well. Plenty stores and bright yellow pollen. This is the queen from your Aberdeenshire grafts Gavin ! Brood mostly black and they seem to have inherited AAs very calm demeanor  :Smile: 

The second hive was ridiculous. 6 frames brood with another 2 sides of eggs, plenty of young emerged, chock full of bees and lots of wild comb built up around the feeder...also with eggs in. I removed a slab of stores and put an empty frame in as not heaps of room in there. I also saw two fat drones wandering about the frames. 

Got me thinking about boosting hives prior to taking them to OSR. Is it more detrimental to the strong hive to remove a brood frame and give it to a weaker one than just leave them be in terms of yield ? I would think 1 very strong hive would be better than 2 medium strengths ?

Both hives are poly langs.

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## gavin

Excellent!  Her sisters are spread through Tayside, Fife and Clackmannanshire  :Smile: .

I don't think there is necessarily one way to arrange your production colonies.  Ted Hooper (if I remember correctly) says that strong colonies are the thing, even to the extent that uniting weaker ones for the honey flow makes sense.  Generally it is my strongest colonies that do well when there is a honey flow.  I'd leave them, but that is personal choice.

Saw a few OSR fields today with yellow buds.  The next warm day will see them in full flower.  In the central Carse of Gowrie there are as many fields as usual.

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## fatshark

First inspection of the year yesterday ... mostly looking good. One suspected queenless colony, the rest mostly on 3-4 frames of BIAS. One boiling out of a brood and a half, with loads of brace comb with brood built into the eke around an empty carton of fondant. One very tetchy colony destined for early queen replacement (an obvious mix of some type, much paler than most of my stock). One suspected late season supercedure. Two looking great for queen rearing in terms of temperament. Colonies overwintered in Thorne's Everynucs in particularly good condition with 3+ frames of brood.

Comb changes start shortly ... 

Great to work with bees again - I think it was late August since I last inspected a colony.

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## GRIZZLY

Went thro the rest of mine yesterday. I am very surprised at how strong they are with stacks of open and sealed brood ,  stores and an abundance of pollen. Bodes well for this year if we get some decent weather. We counted 29 different sorts of flowers in bloom yesterday  with wifey photographing them for our records. She is now a very keen beekeeper now that she has passed her preliminary exam with distinction and has followed on by taking her module 1.

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## Poly Hive

"My" rape is coming into full flower and will last at best three weeks. My bees are not fit for it which is good given I aim at comb honey. 

How long does the rape last in your neck of the woods as I hear it is a lot shorter a flowering time than it was in the 90's when one could near bet on a good 6 to 7 weeks. 

PH

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## gavin

> blue pollen this time of year is likely siberian squill


From the blog of an American lady bee inspector ... http://www.beverlybees.com

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## lindsay s

This years news
15th of March cleaned all the hive floors and had a quick look under the crown boards. All the hives had bees and were given 1 kilo of candy. 6th of April was a cool day but I had a friend up on holiday so the hives were given a quick inspection. All 7 colonies had laying queens and 2 or 3 bars with palm sized patches of brood. The candy was partly used up and except for one nuc all hives had plenty of stores. A few slugs and hundreds of slateros (woodlice) had moved into some of the hives over the winter. Last Thursday was a nice warm day and I gave our secretary a hand with her bees, they are slightly ahead of mine and she has a sheltered apiary in the middle of the town. I will be acquiring a nice colony of bees from her in a few weeks time. Nice to hear about your Everynucs fatshark I might try one out this winter. Its cold up here at the moment and were not forecast to get warm weather this week. The forage seems to be later this year and it looks like well have a slow spring build up.

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## fatshark

Today I'll be laying the foundations for the repossession of my house, car, cat and family by visiting the trade stands at the BBKA Convention. I'm actually at Harper Adams for a meeting but, like a moth to a flame, will spiral into the exhibitors tent and my inevitable financial destruction.

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## Calum

> Today I'll be laying the foundations for the repossession of my house, car, cat and family by visiting the trade stands at the BBKA Convention. I'm actually at Harper Adams for a meeting but, like a moth to a flame, will spiral into the exhibitors tent and my inevitable financial destruction.


yes, lol, happens to me every time too.... 
Some more junk that I will never really use that just steals more space....
Then i have bouts of Beekeeping Minimalism- so have to find a noob beekeeper to gift my junk to. Luckily they are not in short supply

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## fatshark

Extraordinary … managed to escape with a single purchase of something that I lacked and wanted (and was less than £15). I only saw the inside of a meeting room and the trade show - no talks or other events. The trade show looked really quiet. None of the unsightly ruck for bargains that used to happen at the Thorne's stand at Stoneleigh. Partly this is due to pre-ordering. However, in chats with a couple of commercial guys I know it's clear that BeeTradex is getting a lot of business. I assume tomorrow will be busier. Didn't look to me that there were too many 'too good to miss' bargains on the stands. Good to see some friends there.

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## Bumble

> Extraordinary  managed to escape with a single purchase of something that I lacked and wanted


That's good news. I wasn't too worried about your house or car being repossessed, but for it to have happened to the cat would have been very unfair.

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## fatshark

> That's good news. I wasn't too worried about your house or car being repossessed, but for it to have happened to the cat would have been very unfair.


Unfortunately my statement hid an unpleasant truth. My cat is already possessed. Totally psycho ... 
I bought the new E.M. Thorne home exorcism kit (flatpack).

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## Bumble

> Unfortunately my statement hid an unpleasant truth. My cat is already possessed. Totally psycho ...


No no! Didn't you know that cats are perfect, but some have owners that don't understand them!

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## Jon

Set up a new apiary today.

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## Neils

My two survivors are coming along, neither strong enough to do much with the OSR in the field next door. Given the weather wasn't brilliant I did a quick check of the nuc which is now up to two frames of brood and made do with just popping the crown board on the national and judging the number of bees (about half the hive) both have foundation frames so I think I'll basically leave them to it in terms of inspecting now until I see them start to be drawn.

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## The Drone Ranger

Fatshark thank you for the cat advice it made me laugh out loud
Mrs DR thought I had won the lottery -- she was disappointed-- that made it all the funnier

Our cat, which art in heaven, was also possessed, so now perhaps with his eccentric ways and unpredictable biting he will be reincarnated as a lion (which was something he always aspired to be)

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## Jon

I used this in a talk on swarm control last week.

delusion cat lion.jpg

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## greengumbo

Hives onto OSR last Thursday.......2.5 inches of snow on Sunday. Nice work weather gods. All gone now but still chilly out.

To be honest if it retards the OSR flowering I'm hoping its not a bad thing as every day flowering is delayed is another day brood is hatching and new foragers are graduating. Is that sound logic ?

Needed the rain as well - very dry up here over past month.

Quick question - I have a nuc about 2km from this OSR field. I want to move them straight onto it but standard thinking means flying bees might pop back to original site. I'm willing to risk it if people think that it should be okay ?

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## GRIZZLY

Move it ., then put grass into the entrance to hold the emerging bees back. they will then re-locate and all will be well after the grass wilts and lets the bees out.

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## greengumbo

> Move it ., then put grass into the entrance to hold the emerging bees back. they will then re-locate and all will be well after the grass wilts and lets the bees out.


Excellent I bow to your superior knowledge  :Smile:

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## prakel

Don't normally start till early May but this year's a little different. This one is actually yesterday's news...

025.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

> I used this in a talk on swarm control last week.
> 
> Attachment 2268


Lol!!

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## greengumbo

Moved. Grass at entrance just to be sure. 

Wish this sun would come out.

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## Jon

DR.
Delusion and denial are the two key components of how most beekeepers deal with swarming.
The two you hear most often are (1) I found a huge swarm in my garden but it didn't come from any of my hives and (2) That hive could not have swarmed. Look how many bees are in it.

I had someone ring me up last year who had a swarm hanging from a branch in her garden and she was offering it to one of the beginners.
She had been through her hive and had not seen the queen and it had sealed queen cells but still refused to believe that her bees had swarmed.

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## busybeephilip

> DR.
> ) I found a huge swarm in my garden but it didn't come from any of my hives .




Funny you should quote that Jon but I actually witnessed a swarm fly across my garden towards and settle in my home apairy site, if I had not seen it arrive I would definately though it came from one of my hives.  I have found unidentifiable swarms before and now believe that it is the smell of a large number of hives or flying bees in the area that attracts passing swarms.  I do use home made swarm lures in bait hives at all my sites so that might be a contributory factor in attracting swarms into the area.

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## Jon

Swarms usually settle no more than a couple of hundred yards from the hive they emerge from so you must have a beekeeper very close by.

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## busybeephilip

Not if they are on the move and have already travelled some distance

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## Jon

That's not how Tom Seeley sees it. I have seen his lecture a couple of times on Honeybee democracy, how a new nest site is chosen.
The swarm settles near where it emerges then the scouts go out to find possible nest sites. This could take a couple of days.
The scouts which find the best sites dance more vigorously on the comb when they return and they are eventually whittled down to one. At this stage the scouts lead the swarm directly into the new home. No pit stops involved.

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## prakel

> I have found unidentifiable swarms before and now believe that it is the smell of a large number of hives or *flying* *bees* *in* *the* *area* that attracts passing swarms.


Ron Brown (in 'Seasonal Guide to Beekeeping') speculated that scouts could get caught up in bee flyways between apiary and crops.

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## fatshark

And Seeley demonstrates really well that the swarm moving from the temporary resting place to the chosen new site follows the scouts that overfly the swarm using fast and direct flight. In studies that resemble those that prakel is referring to the swarm would get 'lost' en route to the new site if the flight line crossed bee flyways between apiaries and OSR fields (i.e. a busy route with lots of direct flights … so resembling the scouts). I always thought this was a neat experiment. What I'm not sure is whether Seeley ever demonstrated it was the *swarm* that got distracted and lost, or the *scout bees* leading the swarm …

Mid-afternoon and (yet again) too cold for inspections … when it warms up it's going to be swarmtastic … I'm putting my bait hives out  :Wink:

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## Jon

5C and raining here.
Some of Seeley's experiments are pure genius and he has very good video clips to illustrate the navigation dancing.
He had one of his assistants paint over the Nasonov gland in every bee in a swarm to illustrate that the fanning influences the speed at which the swarm enters the chosen nest site.

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## busybeephilip

Seeley could be wrong, in an ideal world this probably happens.  How do you explain bee nests which are created out in the open with no protection or cavity amongst tree / bush branches and not in the vicinity of any other colonies.  Bees will go where the queen goes and if she decides to take a rest then the bees will follow.

I know what I observed, bees crossing the area of my apairy and settling. my garden is over 1/2 acre it cam in from the far end towards the apairy site

this supports fatsharks comments and prakel what I've just read

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## busybeephilip

Its stopped raining !

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## prakel

> Bees will go where the queen goes and if she decides to take a rest then the bees will follow.


Just this, I think. Bees can't live by absolutes, 'things' happen which don't fit textbook rules. I'd be very surprised to hear that Seeley doesn't accept that there are variables to swarm behaviour.

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## mbc

I like Seeley's work very much, but one has to remember it is done with strains of bee unfamiliar to many of us. What rings true for me are many of Willie Robson's observations about swarming, made with generations of experience observing local bees.  He writes that colonies have a memory of all the other colonies within their sphere and investigate these sites first thing in the spring with a view to planning where to swarm into to repopulate, iirc with a particular emphasis on the relationship between mother and daughter parts of a swarm from previous years keeping tabs on each other.  the implications about colony memory are almost spiritual!

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## prakel

mbc, that book's a wealth of observations and experience which are hard to dismiss even though they're not always a perfect match with what others have written previously.

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## mbc

I think it comes across very plausibly when he's talking, perhaps less so in writing.
My point about strains of bee was that the bulk of what is writen and the research is done on bees which are unfamiliar to me and which have been transplanted into different areas, it must colour the conclusions somewhat.

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## fatshark

> Its stopped raining !


Same here, nearly … hoping to do my second proper inspection of the season today. It's been too cold for ages. The OSR has been going full strength for a fortnight and they've missed most of it. Other beekeepers (without day jobs, for example) tell me that swarm preparations are underway in many colonies, so as soon as the temperature rises they'll be off.

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## prakel

> My point about strains of bee was that the bulk of what is writen and the research is done on bees which are unfamiliar to me and which have been transplanted into different areas, it must colour the conclusions somewhat.


I'm guessing that this is more a demonstration of unknown/outside forces acting in real time rather than any effect which transplanting bees 90+ years ago (for the most part) is having on present day research projects. I may be wrong, of course.

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## Jon

> swarm preparations are underway in many colonies, so as soon as the temperature rises they'll be off.


First blink of sunshine it could be mayhem. We have had three really hot days followed by 10 really cold days and there must be a lot of colonies with sealed queen cells in them at the moment. Not any of mine I hope!

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## busybeephilip

Just poked my nose outside - its sunny and warm, bees flying vigorously gathering water etc, hopefully no swarms ....

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## busybeephilip

Green (as on ebay) and brown cups are different sizes, there is now purple cups, is purple the same size as brown ?

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## lindsay s

> when it warms up it's going to be swarmtastic … I'm putting my bait hives out





> Went down to the bees last nite, it had been 16 degree C during the day and the bees were vigorously fanning at the entrances, the first thing to hit me was the smell of dandelion nectar, supers on most boxes now with the bees up in them  -  2015 here I come


While I was reading the forum this morning I started weeping into my porridge when I came across the above quotes. I was thinking If only beekeeping was that easy up here. Yesterday was the first time in a month that I’d managed to carry out an inspection of my hives. Temperatures have been in single figures for weeks and the current outlook is none better.
My strongest colony has five bars of brood; my weakest three and the rest have four. Hives that had plenty of stores a month ago are rapidly running out and three are getting syrup to keep them going. The sun was shining and the bees were bringing in pollen but that is the one commodity all the colonies are short of. The flowering currant is turning brown and dying off and the dandelions have spent most of the time closed. It looks like the bees have missed out on two important sources of pollen at this time of year.
My bees are struggling to keep expanding brood nests warm and fed and there’s a slim chance of comb being drawn. I was speaking to another beekeeper today and she's in the same boat as me.
If things stay like this I’ll be changing my forum name to Miserable B.

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## fatshark

Sorry! If it's any consolation the last week here has been pretty cold (I did say _when_ it warms up) and the OSR is being ignored by anything other than the strongest colonies. About 5 years ago I had mated queens this week, but this year is really slow. 

Finally, I'm moving 300 miles North later this year so I'll be weeping into my porridge as well ...

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## lindsay s

Thanks for that Fatshark. By the way I will be asking a few questions about your over wintered Everynucs on the polyhive thread shortly. I might have ago at it this year thats if we get a summer?

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## greengumbo

> Finally, I'm moving 300 miles North later this year so I'll be weeping into my porridge as well ...


Theres 300 miles north to where you are going Fatshark and then there's Orkney which is a further 200 ! Your new abode will be a tad more gentle methinks.

Having said that ever since I moved mine to OSR the weather has been stinking.

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## gavin

> Having said that ever since I moved mine to OSR the weather has been stinking.


There was me blaming myself for perturbing the weather patterns by moving hives 100 miles east, but I'll gladly let you take the blame  :Wink: 

I'm going to try moving more about 5 miles south (as the crow flies) and we'll see what that does.  I don't normally add salt to my porridge so if I have to cry into it perhaps it will taste better.

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## Jon

Arey they getting anything at all from the Rape. My colonies are getting lighter on general forage at the moment. Great amounts of pollen coming in when the sun comes out.

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## gavin

On Monday they were very busy on the rape, for a while anyway.  Some were lighter, some holding their own, but they still have stores from the better weather previously.  They should be able to forage again a little on Friday and Saturday so I'm not too worried about starvation but the weather is certainly holding them back and risking any crop at all from the rape.  Chalkbrood has had a resurgence.  It was bad early on then declined in the better weather but has worsened again.

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## fatshark

> Theres 300 miles north to where you are going Fatshark and then there's Orkney which is a further 200 ! Your new abode will be a tad more gentle methinks.


_Benign_ I was promised, _balmy_ at times, _bollox_ I thought  :Wink: 

Today we have 40 mph winds and rain predicted all day. A pile of supers have just blown over - unsurprisingly they were empty.

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## busybeephilip

As Jon says, the bad weather we are getting now is making the bees eatup all their stores, queens are getting closer to maximum laying rate,  supers containg danylion honey are now  getting lighter but do have a lot of pollen in them.  what worries me now is the forcast for May is not great and sugar feeding might be needed for some colonies to survive (i have 200 litres in preparation ready to use), other colonies are beginning to become very populated and if not examined in the rain means that just a blink of sunshine in between the bad weather and its swarms away.  Looks like May is going to be a testing month.

No rape here, only very few farmers grow it, sometimes there is a field grown near minnowburn but have not seen it for a while, it really needs to be spring/summer planted rape to get a decent drop from it.  I have never managed to get much worthwhile from winter sown rape due to it flowering in bad weather.

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## SteveW316

It's cold and wet, STILL  Grrrr

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## Bridget

> As Jon says, the bad weather we are getting now is making the bees eatup all their stores, queens are getting closer to maximum laying rate,  supers containg danylion honey are now  getting lighter but do have a lot of pollen in them.  what worries me now is the forcast for May is not great and sugar feeding might be needed for some colonies to survive (i have 200 litres in preparation ready to use), other colonies are beginning to become very populated and if not examined in the rain means that just a blink of sunshine in between the bad weather and its swarms away.  Looks like May is going to be a testing month.


This cheered me up a bit if only because it's not just cold in the highlands.  It got up to 14 degrees for a few hours on Friday so managed to have a quick check.  Was surprised to see how low stores were so syrup all round.  Kg bags sugar 49 p at Aldi. Although nearly 7 frames of bees in two hives it feels far too cold to put supers on and anyway they need feeding first.  The nuc that had a poor winter slowly building but the queen looks pretty ropey to me and where am I going to get another one in this weather?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Emma

Has anyone seen any swarm preparations yet, in Scotland? Last year I caught my first swarm on 8 May; this year the nests are much smaller and, crucially, there's no sign of drones emerging yet. 
I'm just about to go away for work for over a week - happens every year in swarming season, makes me very jittery! - but haven't had the heart to do inspections today. It's warm enough for foraging today, but not great. I had the same chalkbrood spike that Gavin saw on t'other side of the Tay: I don't want to let the draft in and bring it on again.
All the signs - including earlier comments in this thread - are that swarming will be late this year, but it'd be nice to know if other people are thinking the same!
Emma

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## Jon

I gave a talk on swarm control on 22nd April to a local association and 3 people had had a swarm that very day.
My father had a swarm from his log hive on the 23rd.
A colony at our association apiary had queen cells and no (clipped) queen so I reckon it swarmed at some point in the last 2 weeks.
Not Scotland but pretty much as far North. I am sure there have been a few swarms in Scotland already.

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## gavin

Murray had a small swarm (not his) in the Blairgowrie-Coupar Angus area a couple of weeks ago but that, from its size, was likely to have come from a small nuc running out of space in the early warm spell.

Just back from the association apiary where they are nowhere near swarming and where I've just added fondant to four colonies with nothing left in the larder.  My usual first swarm preparation dates would be in the third week of May.  I'm not expecting it any earlier this year.

Happy travelling   :Smile: 

G.

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## Adam

I'm a few hundred miles S of Scotland.. A friend had an attempted swarm last weekend - well two attempts as the clipped queen probably came back. I went through the hive with him on Wednesday, opened a bronzed queencell for the queen to scuttle out and removed the rest. We'll leave them be for a while. I also had a swarm attempt on Thursday. My fault - not enough room. The colony had 14 frames of brood and the brood boxes and one super were also full of honey. I found the clipped queen who was back in the hive and removed her to a nuc. I pulled a virgin queen in that hive too and removed the remaining queencells. I was dealing with the colony when the bee inspector came. With EFB nearby last year (2 km) it was comforting that she confirmed my own diagnosis of 'all clear'.

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## Emma

My folks used to keep bees in south Northumberland, and even that was a whole different world, never mind Norfolk. I guess you must get the cold east winds, Adam, but the season just doesn't sound the same... I'm certainly nowhere near 14-frame brood nests as yet! & the stores are still empyting, even though there's a flow on at last. I'm more worried by what you've seen, Jon, but I've never known mine start shifting by April. Maybe further west is that much warmer??? In Aberdeen 3rd week of May was the earliest I saw... I loathe being away this time of year; this time it's to go to Finland but even that doesn't make up for it.
The state of mine sounds much more as you're describing, Gavin. Too late now, anyway. In a week or so I'll tumble off the sleeper coach straight into the brood nests, weather permitting, & see what they're planning :-)
Emma

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## Bumble

> First blink of sunshine it could be mayhem.


It's been cold and wet here for weeks, but swarm calls are starting to come in. So far none of our swarm collectors has taken a prime swarm, they've all been tiny only on a couple of frames at best. They're beginning to wonder if the prime swarms have gone during a short break in the weather.

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## Jon

> They're beginning to wonder if the prime swarms have gone during a short break in the weather.


There was a 3 day spell 21-23 April when it was about 19c here and swarms went off in that period. Since then it has been cold so I think colonies would have been quite unlikely to throw casts.
The people I spoke to had been overfeeding which likely induced the swarms.

My colonies here are building up well but are getting lighter.

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## mbc

> My colonies here are building up well but are getting lighter.


Aye, things are nicely poised, I saw horse chestnut candles yesterday, sycamores threatening and hawthorn is on the verge whilst the Apple blossom in the biggest orchard I have bees in is just coming towards its best. I think with the recent cold having held back the colonies a bit everything's waiting to explode as we get  the higher temperatures forecasted for this week.

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## gavin

> I think with the recent cold having held back the colonies a bit everything's waiting to explode as we get  the higher temperatures forecasted for this week.


It was a bit of an eye-opener seeing how light some of the colonies were at the association apiary yesterday.  Soon to go and check out as many of mine as I can see before the heavy rain returns later, and I'll be taking feed with me.  Some of my apiaries are near OSR but others are not - it is the latter that might be suffering.

It looks like tomorrow may be a decent foraging day, then Tues and Wed might give them brief foraging windows but after that I'll be back to starvation watch for a while according to the forecast for the rest of May.

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## mbc

A bit gloomy Gavin, I'm still organising some hired help to get the huge spring crop in at the end of May.

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## busybeephilip

Its lookin like May is going to be a really bad month weatherwise

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## Jon

And June is always poor around here so looking like just the July honey crop this year.
Your colonies up to full strength Phil. Most of mine are not far off it.
Could do with decent weather but it's not looking good for the next 10 days.

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## Adam

Yes we can get a cold east wind - sometimes it's warm enough for mating inland and a few degrees cooler on the coast which I am always miffed about. I'm about 2 miles from the sea.  Spring starts a week or so later than 20 miles inland. We don't get so many cold frosts in winter though.

Forecast is 22 degrees tomorrow. If so, and I have a queen that emerged on Thursday - she just might go out and mate. It will be the quickest I've had IF it happens. Often with beekeeping our hopes and expectations are dashed!

----------


## Adam

June is usually poor for me too. I have 4 hives at the side of a field and there's a strip of clover and pollinator friendly plants that went in last year. With luck they'll help out a tiny bit until the bramble starts.

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## Jon

I reckon 6 days from emergence for the earliest chance of a mating flight but you know what they say about the rare genetics in Norfolk!

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## Bridget

> It was a bit of an eye-opener seeing how light some of the colonies were at the association apiary yesterday.  Soon to go and check out as many of mine as I can see before the heavy rain returns later, and I'll be taking feed with me.  Some of my apiaries are near OSR but others are not - it is the latter that might be suffering.


I saw the same on Monday - was quite shocked at how little stores left and have had syrup on them ever since, which they are draining dry so filling up every day.  Not sure how long to keep feeding - was working on the principle that they will stop when they have enough but don't want them to fill up all the brood space.  Hope to get in there to check it out soon as by the look of them they will need a super very soon. Looks like being wet and windy for the next two days.

----------


## busybeephilip

now there is the beginnings of a gale and heavy rain.  This weathers crazy - I need good weather in the next few weeks for the tree flow, bees are ready for it.  Noticed some drone brood being thrown out of the weaker hives, a sign that food is getting critical.

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## Jon

Yep. Chestnut and then sycamore is probably the most important source of nectar in May. The Chestnut is already in flower and the sycamore will be along soon.

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## mbc

Sycamore's an odd one round these parts, sometimes yielding copiously, sometimes sparingly and sometimes nowt at all.  I reckon to have a good sycamore year one in seven, and it often coincides with hawthorn yielding too which is a much stronger flavoured honey and so swamps the sycamore flavour.  Generally get a bit on the hawthorn so long as no gales come to rattle off the first set of bloom.

----------


## busybeephilip

> Generally get a bit on the hawthorn .



Ah yes, the "Hawthorne honey flow", loads of this where I live, I even have loads near my hives along with lots of the yellow flowering whin bushes, I see lots of bees on the whins but never ever on the hawthorne, lots of flys and hover flies (the one that often get confused as bees).  I see bees on cheastnut , sycamore and maple but never on hawthorne - why ?

I reckon this is another beekeepers myth - the hawthorne honeyflow that just happens to coincide with the tree flow !

for discussion ?  (oH -I did see a bee on hawthorne once - placed on it for to take a photograph)

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## busybeephilip

bee on hawthorne - search "hawthorne bee" in google images shows a bee on hawthorne but look closely - thats not a hawthorne leaf but a fruit tree of some sort

Blackthorne is different, it flowers earlier than hawthorne and it does attract bees - you need to know your thorns.

blackthorn (may flower as sometimes it is called here) the flowering finishes as the hawthorne starts - I think this leads to the confussion

Another picture http://dustygedge.co.uk/wp-content/g...hawthorn-3.jpg  except its not a bee !!!

My old bee book lists hawthorne as a poor nectar plant but usefull for pollen

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## Jon

Mine collect a lot of pollen from Hawthorn.

----------


## chris

Right now, mine are going crazy on the hawthorn.Mainly pollen, but some nectar gatherers. Maybe the ridiculous amount of sunshine? I remember a post by 'weewilyl' on the old bbka forum where he said the mayflower gives only once in 7 years.Coincides with mbc's sycamore?

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## busybeephilip

It appears that there is also different cultivated varieties of hawthorne that honeybees do visit, but the wild hedgerow form is basically ignored by bees ( eg the one I have here) .  Of these the single flower cultivated forms attract bees but the double flowered ones do not, they also come in white or pink, so you need to know what type of plant you are looking at.  I supose its possible to have differences in wild cultivars the length and breadth of the country and those in europe different again just like one has differences in the types of black bee up and down the country.

----------


## prakel

> Blackthorne is different, it flowers earlier than hawthorne and it does attract bees - you need to know your thorns.
> 
> blackthorn (may flower as sometimes it is called here) the flowering finishes as the hawthorne starts - I think this leads to the confussion


Really confusing. I've always been under the understanding that the 'May' is hawthorn.

Blackthorn: one of the best years for flowers I can remember but, on Portland the bees only had a couple of days on it at the very end of the flowering (when it was well past being much use) after the heavy rain of two weeks ago; the previous month (as per every other year) they ignored it totally. Meanwhile, three miles away across the causeway you could hear the bees working it from quite some distance throughout it's flowering period. Need to know soil as well as the thorns.

----------


## busybeephilip

> Really confusing. I've always been under the understanding that the 'May' is hawthorn.


Hmmm... its just me that's confuddled, you are correct, MAY is the hawthorne.  
blackthorn flowers with no leaves, hawthorn the leaves come first then the flowers

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## mbc

It's one of those fickle plants which sometimes yields in some places and not others, it's one of my best sellers at market when my bees do do well on it, the honey has that heady scent as if you're standing under a mature hawthorn in full blossom on a warm afternoon, delicious.

----------


## gavin

> ... the honey has that heady scent as if you're standing under a mature hawthorn in full blossom on a warm afternoon, delicious.


Doesn't hawthorn have a touch of cat's piss about its aroma?!  Can't say I noticed last year when we got some locally, which is very unusual.

I opened an IBC yesterday to take syrup round some sites south of here but in the end used little of it.  The better sites are OK for stores and the bees were busy.  Some sycamore has been out for a week as has been the earliest horse chestnut in the warmest spots.  Bird cherry is still in flower.  OSR and dandelion too of course.  They seem to use sycamore even while it is wet.

----------


## gavin

The recent discussion here on apiary vicinity mating can now be found in this new thread:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...icinity-mating

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## mbc

> Doesn't hawthorn have a touch of cat's piss about its aroma?! .


Lol. Maybe, but that doesn't quite do it for the punters when you're waxing lyrical about its magic healing properties and wonderful flavour while they're tucking into a taster.

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## greengumbo

Day of firsts for the season yesterday; first sting, first demaree and first mating nuc made up. Only one hive showing any inkling of swarming so it got the demaree. The mating nuc was just opportunism after a big sealed Q cell was found in a colleagues hive - supercedure as its only one and on the bottom of the frame. The original queen was running around on the same frame but must be getting on a bit - yellow is that 2013 ? Colleague wants to wait to re-queen in a few weeks and was about to tear down the cell so I cut it out for myself.

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## Jon

I am getting grafts started now. I have 9 queens due to emerge tomorrow and I frame I grafted on saturday has about 16-18 cells started.
The weather is crap. It would need to improve in a week or so so that the queens can take mating flights.

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## greengumbo

Excellent news Jon. I might use the strength of the demaree hive to graft into the top brood box and get going for the season.

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## Jon

I am using a queenless box to get grafts started.

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## Adam

My first grafts have just emerged (yesterday) - 8 from 9 started - so weather permitting I'll get 1/2 dozen queens from them. A second lot of 8 went in on Sunday with 7 taken. This is from a demaree where the colony was already drawing queencells - so ready for raising. The colony is doing well but doesn't have the temper I like so I might leave a queencell in there and whip out the queen.

Weather is also good (22 degrees yesterday and 19 today) so there's plenty of nectar coming in. Mankini time if the weather holds for much longer!

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## Adam

> I reckon 6 days from emergence for the earliest chance of a mating flight but you know what they say about the rare genetics in Norfolk!


Yep, we are all inbred and have 6 toes....

Blackthorn is sloes and May is Hawthorne.

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## Jon

You are all spending too much time looking at the Thorne catalogue.

Hawthorn is spelt like this hawthorn, hawthorn, hawthorn!

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## mbc

I think you'll find "draenen wen" is the correct spelling.....

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## Jon

Sure there is not an 'e' on the end of that?

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## mbc

I like the fact we're slowly coming out of the woodwork admitting to having started grafting, I'll be on my fourth graft this week, the last one I had a reasonable take but the first two were definitely nothing to brag about, when I start getting really good success I'll tell you all about it :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Jon

I grafted on may 1st and got 9 started. Those ones have started emerging.
I grafted on Saturday and have a good number started from that, 16+
I'll do another frame tomorrow and see how that goes.

Anything in the first half of May is a bonus.

You using Q+ or Q- starters?

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## mbc

> You using Q+ or Q- starters?


Q- ,
I managed to kill the queen in one of my cell raisers boosting it with bees and brood from elsewhere to get them up to strength for an early batch, I've used those ones to start all but the first graft (which I started in a q- cell starting box) and they've also finished a few, nearly all the brood has hatched now so it's time to unite them. I have two cell raising colonies at the moment, one a conventional cloak board set up and the other the queenless mess, it's bursting with bees so has done a good job but ideally I want to find something suitable to unite under it so it can continue to be usefully for a few rounds yet, hopefully I'll see what I'm looking for on my travels tomorrow.

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## mbc

> Anything in the first half of May is a bonus.


Absolutely, just to get the ball rolling.

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## Jon

I have one q- starter, just a 6 frame Paynes nuc bunged to the gills with nurse bees and one ben harden setup with frames of brood above the queen excluder in a queenright colony.
I ordered 5 of those nuc brood extensions from Paynes at the weekend so will use those in q- colonies with 6 frames over 6.

Incubator switched on now as well.
Brothermoo used it to hatch 6 chicken eggs in February but it is now back to its rightful purpose hatching queens.

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## prakel

A couple out of our second batch (emerged 9/5) -just experimentals to get the mini nucs stocked, their grandmother was a rather 'dubious' looking yellow queen which was kindly given to us last summer  :Smile: 

010.jpg024.jpg007.jpg

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## Jon

yellow queen3.jpg yellow queen1.jpg

look familiar?

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## prakel

Yes!!

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## Neils

First Apidea of the year is in play. Not from any deliberate QR attempts on my part, my bees remain in a bit of a state (now down to one sad Nuc that refuses to expand and a queen less national), but I helped a friend attend a swarm call this afternoon, trotted up skep in hand to the smallest swarm I think I've ever seen. In the end we collected them in a 1/2 litre milk carton with the lid cut off and, for want of something better to do with them, transferred them into an apidea when I got home  :Smile: 

So today I now have 3 cast swarms to add to my collection of colonies without a laying queen, who said beekeeping could ever get dull. I've got three massive fields of OSR literally next door and a bunch of hives that between then couldn't fill a frame with honey  :Big Grin:   I shall keep fingers crossed for some nice weather this weekend to get some time to figure out just what I've actually got, though I suspect at the moment if I just combined the lot I might just about have a half decent hive of bees, maybe even with a laying queen  :Big Grin: .

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## Adam

> You are all spending too much time looking at the Thorne catalogue.
> 
> Hawthorn is spelt like this hawthorn, hawthorn, hawthorn!


Whoops.

And potato is potatoe. (Or was that US Vice President who spelled it like that? (Dan Quayle I recall - he - allegedly - also had a mickey mouse watch)...

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## Adam

> Anything in the first half of May is a bonus.


They don't always get mated in time if you start too early which is a shame. For my first lot that emerged on 10/11 May there's a better than evens chance that they will go up and mate OK - although my girls need warmer weather than perhaps the darkies do. Generally 20 degrees - and we lose out on the coast sometimes being cooler during the day. I need a mating apiary 10 or 20 miles inland.

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## busybeephilip

> I think you'll find "draenen wen" is the correct spelling.....


some might argue "sceach gheal "

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## fatshark

I'm in awe of the weight of honey-filled supers prakel has been keeping quiet about  bits of the Jurassic Coast are so weighed down they're about to fall into the sea

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-32780736

respect  :Wink:

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## prakel

shhh.... we don't want the continental fishing trawlers strapping hives to their decks in search of a double harvest!

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## Emma

Back from abroad at last (great to have news of conditions back home while I was away!), & got the last two colonies checked yesterday - highest recorded temperature over 16 degrees!! Uncomfortably hot, to me, and well above what the bees seem to need for foraging  :Smile: 
All colonies expanding, variable quantities of drone brood, according to nest size & temperament*, but no other swarm prep bar a few unpolished, eggless queen cups. Phew. Stores ranging between sufficient and comfortable - several nearby  fields are suddenly blazing with OSR, the swathes of green alkanet and figwort are still popular, & the bees are earning their keep by rampaging over all the apple trees. Lovely. Quite a bit of new comb being built, too: there's clearly a decent amount of nectar coming in, despite the cool and the rain. 
Compared with some other recent posts I'm feeling really lucky, so far...
Emma  
(*They're all on wild comb broodnests, so they get to raise as many boys as they like... Gives me a complicated but interesting life.)

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## GRIZZLY

Mystery honey.  Bees arriving back to the hive with faces covered in bright yellow pollen .  The wax comb is chrome yellow and the honey it contains is bright yellow ,   with a not very pleasant taste. It also has a quite unpleasant smell. It's got me puzzled., anyone got any ideas as to its identification please.

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## Jon

Did someone post a year or two ago that this could be broom or am I imagining that. Is the broom even in flower yet?

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## GRIZZLY

Apparently broom produces abundant pollen but no honey - so perhaps not that.

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## drumgerry

Broom starting here in Speyside but I've no experience of it producing honey which, of course, isn't to say it doesn't.  Always thought the pollen was akin to gorse or whins as we call it here ie vibrant orangey colour.

On a side note we had our first nice day in ages here today and many colonies have very depleted stores.  Need to feed a fair few - something I find galling at this time of year!  Plus - not a hint of a swarm cell to be found yet.  Still a couple of weeks yet before we have to worry about that I suspect.

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## gavin

> Mystery honey.  Bees arriving back to the hive with faces covered in bright yellow pollen .  The wax comb is chrome yellow and the honey it contains is bright yellow ,   with a not very pleasant taste. It also has a quite unpleasant smell. It's got me puzzled., anyone got any ideas as to its identification please.


Yellow faces at this time of year are often OSR.   OSR honey is, of course, pale in the liquid state and often when cold has a glassy look to it. 

Yellow wax and yellow odd-tasting honey - could that be dandelion?

Off in a minute to spend another happy hour with a Tacwise nail gun :-)

----------


## Black Comb

> Mystery honey.  Bees arriving back to the hive with faces covered in bright yellow pollen .  The wax comb is chrome yellow and the honey it contains is bright yellow ,   with a not very pleasant taste. It also has a quite unpleasant smell. It's got me puzzled., anyone got any ideas as to its identification please.


Sounds like dandelion. Smells of sweaty socks.

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## GRIZZLY

> Sounds like dandelion. Smells of sweaty socks.


The wife has done some research and we agree it is probably dandelion- which the French call " pissenlit " or " piss the bed ". The bees from  4 hives are involved and must have found several fields blanketed in dandelion flowers to draw 4 supers and fill with unripened honey. I don't think I will be jarring too much of the stuff.  Thanks for the interest.
Glad the Tacwise is working for you Gavin - you must have a more delicate touch than me.

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## gavin

> The wife has done some research and we agree it is probably dandelion- which the French call " pissenlit " or " piss the bed ". The bees from  4 hives are involved and must have found several fields blanketed in dandelion flowers to draw 4 supers and fill with unripened honey. I don't think I will be jarring too much of the stuff.  Thanks for the interest.
> Glad the Tacwise is working for you Gavin - you must have a more delicate touch than me.


Some honeys that are distasteful, toxic or just odd change with storage as the chemicals responsible break down.  Maybe the dandelion honey will taste better after a while.  Or maybe you can find someone who likes it and is happy to buy it.  Some folk like ivy honey, and others dislike heather honey.  Takes all kinds ....

The Tacwise is coming in very useful, thanks Grizzly.  There is the occasional jam and a proportion of nails need a tap with a hammer to finish them off but it is still  a major improvement over nail and fingers (never a good combination!).  I haven't timed it but it wouldn't surprise me if I'm getting twice the number assembled in a set period of time.  As I'm heading for 50-60 colonies over the summer that is a big help!

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## Jon

The nail gun I got from Lidl for £9.99 is a vast improvement on a hammer and fingers. It's not perfect as some nails need to be tapped home with the hammer but I am very pleased with it. I think I still have about 500 frames to put together.

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## gavin

Oh dear.  Rough guess at 700 to go for me as long as I get a reasonable honey crop.  Wish I'd done them in the winter ....

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## greengumbo

I had a pollen trap on three of my hives for the CSI project. It must have been a bonnie day as after 24 hours a single hive had filled 2 x 1lb jars with pollen ! Unbelievable. Most of it was sycamore I think. 

Bees are next to a lovely wee woodland but I never expected even a quarter of that. 

What can I do with pollen other than make patties next spring ? Must be a market for it somewhere ! Gourmet foodie types ?

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## busybeephilip

Yes there is a small market for it.

I bought a nice pollen trap a lot of years ago from thornes, really well made in cedar  18 inch square with a big drawer at the back.  Like you I got lots of pollen BUT...soon discovered that the hive stopped building up and went into early decline the reason being that it was being starved of pollen so dont keep the trap on the whole time.  Not sure if the CSI project takes this into consideration ?

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## Jon

I am collecting pollen at Minnowburn for the CSI project. The traps are left on for 1-3 days at 3 week intervals.
I am using the Thorne 'fairweather' traps which are not so good but you usually get enough for a sample.

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## busybeephilip

Yeh, its amazing all the different colors that you get.

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## Jon

I am getting 5 or 6 pollen types on average.

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## fatshark

> What can I do with pollen other than make patties next spring ? Must be a market for it somewhere ! Gourmet foodie types ?


I was at one of those 'health food/organic-type cafes on Sunday where they were selling pollen in jars for £££ … can't remember what I'm afraid, but they had some very ordinary honey for £7.15/lb on the same shelf if I remember correctly. 

When I set up the Ben Harden queen rearing upper box I often just use a frame of drawn comb sprinkled liberally with pollen (by which I mean a few tablespoons full of the stuff) facing the grafted queens. It all goes …

What about this stuff on eBay … which appears to be collected by a very hoverfly-looking bee  :Wink:

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## greengumbo

> I was at one of those 'health food/organic-type cafes on Sunday where they were selling pollen in jars for £££  can't remember what I'm afraid, but they had some very ordinary honey for £7.15/lb on the same shelf if I remember correctly. 
> 
> When I set up the Ben Harden queen rearing upper box I often just use a frame of drawn comb sprinkled liberally with pollen (by which I mean a few tablespoons full of the stuff) facing the grafted queens. It all goes 
> 
> What about this stuff on eBay  which appears to be collected by a very hoverfly-looking bee


I am going to try my first grafts of the season this weekend so will pop some pollen in the upper box as you describe FS  :Smile: 

I even prepared and got some lovely paintbrushes as described on some blog  :Wink:

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## chris

> What about this stuff on eBay …


The page won't open here because of  "legal restrictions in certain countries" !!!!!!!!

Apparently pollen can be taken on a regular basis to help prevent prostate problems. Considering the general age of beekeepers.................

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## fatshark

> I even prepared and got some lovely paintbrushes as described on some blog


You don't want to go believing everything you read on the web young man  :Wink: 

Got back from Fife late last night where I left hundreds of scouts exploring my bait hive … here's hoping I've got a result when I return. My first grafts of the year have just gone into nucs for mating … the latest I've started for four or five years I reckon.

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## fatshark

> The page won't open here because of  "legal restrictions in certain countries" !!!!!!!!


Here's the image from the eBay item  do these weird Spanish bees get into France as well Chris?

Natural_Bee_Pollen_Granules_-_Nature_s_Complete_Food_-_Harvested_From_Spain___eBay.jpg

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## fatshark

Jackson Pollock(s)  spent the morning enthusiastically painting poly nucs with my new HVLP spray gun. So enthusiastic on the first coat that I forgot to put a sheet down first to catch the overspray 

20150530-08-2.jpg

 which, since I'm red/green colourblind, looks just fine  :Wink:   A marked improvement on using a brush - a dozen poly nucs, floors, bodies and roofs - in an hour or so per coat. Once I'd worked out how much to thin the paint.  And only about two hours to clean up afterwards  :Frown: 

20150530-10-7.jpg

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## Bridget

So happy to find my bees have managed to put honey into the supers that went on last Sarurday.  Now I don't have to worry if they have enough stores.  Some of it even capped.  Not got a clue what nectar they are finding.  Temps averaging around 10 this week with the odd fluctuation up to 14 but snow on the hills above overnight.  Damn fine bees I'd say.  Scottish born and bred!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Neils

Well, I started May with a sad little Nuc and a queenless national hive and start June with a laying queen in the national, the sad little nuc starting to come along and have been busy collecting waif and stray swarms as people run out of kit. I may technically be up to 5 colonies (with another 3/4 still to come) but between the lot of them I think I could just about muster one decent colony to bring in some honey.

I"m going to get the others up to the apiary, give them all until mid June to settle down and then look to see if I can reduce them down to 2-3 nice strong colonies with maybe a couple of Nucs to take into winter.  There is hope for this season yet!

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## deanrpwaacs

That reminds me of a young lad i knew who decided to spray paint his car parts black on the cream front room carpet 😀 . And he wanted to be a fighter pilot !

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## chris

When I chose this place, one of the reasons was the 2 alleys of limes, 18 in all, plus others around the grounds.
Today:
DSCF4826.jpg

About 2 weeks earlier than up t'mountain  :Big Grin:

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## fatshark

Well done Chris … I've just discovered a 'tree/woodland consultant' who appears to know of every lime tree in the county. Could prove useful  :Wink: 
Today's news is that my first attempt with a Cloake board appears to be working well. Big fat cells that will be sealed tomorrow.

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## Neils

Now up to 7 hives, including two nucs. Biggest Is Currently about 5-6 frames so this weekend I'm going to look to combine 4 of them down to two to try and get some honey coming in.  There are still two colonies that need moving including one for my next door neighbour who's just starting out. They have the brood side of an AS but it currently not queen right so may need a spare queen which I'll have once I've combined a couple of colonies.
After a disastrous start to the year things are looking up as I've also managed to secure two more sites including one ideal for my currently non existent queen rearing programme.

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## Calum

Stuck at a supplier in Vienna - with a machine that just will not run without variation of every sort.
The wife tells me that the two 3 frame nucs in the garden are bringing in pollen, so it looks like they accepted the queens i gave them on Sunday. 
Thats me up to 20 colonies with laying queens - from 4 after my spring sell off.
My trainee beek is preparing apideas for the 30 queens we are sending to the breeding station.... 
And I am stuck 700km away until Saturday... not sure what my target of overwintered colonies should be  - i guess i will run out of boxes to put them in at some point!
Here the first honey harvest is blighted with melicitose...

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## gavin

Good to learn that things are getting back on track Neil.




> Well done Chris … I've just discovered a 'tree/woodland consultant' who appears to know of every lime tree in the county. Could prove useful


Pah!  I have them all covered ..... if you're talking Fife of course .....  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Neils

And I'm off tonight to sort out the other site which is on 15 acres of meadow/orchard. They are so keen to have bees there they came round last night to find out when I could move some there.

I've also has another offer from an organic farm down the road, but I'm saving that one for later. Right now a couple of apiaries with s few hives on each seems to make more sense than rushing in and having to spend ages driving around to look at a hive here or there.

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## Neils

Moving kit around to set up the new apiary:





I think the bees will be happy here, loads of clover in the fields which aren't mown until August.

I've got a couple of hives being combined at the moment which I'll move tomorrow. I'll bring one and probably a backup nuc up to get this one going, but plenty of room to expand.

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## HJBee

Had what is my first real hard work day with the bees today, one of my larger colonies was bubbling last week so I did a split and encourage some bees in a polynucleotide to draw me a new queen, which they've done beautifully.

But the main colony was still bubbling today and had started to draw & charge swarm cells, as well as fill 2 supers. Great - I had the day off to go back & read up on A/S with & without finding the Queen. Bad that it was cold, drizzly & a touch windy - not ideal, but at RHS tomorrow & busy all Sat, so it had to be done. Went back fully equipped with kit & syrup and a) managed to find the queen and b) managed to not get stung once (and they weren't happy). So where there was one, now are three (fingers crossed).

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## GRIZZLY

I've had a "ghost" swarm today, Went thro the colony with John Smith the local bee inspector - they were on double brood and contained seventeen frames of brood and eggs, No sign of queen cells at all. The queen had been marked last year and so was easily seen and found. They were shut up again and left to their own devices ., they had 3 supers on top by the way. That evening this colony threw a large swarm which settled on a cross bar on a fence about 6 feet up in the air. I decided we must have missed a queen cell after all. I went to my bee shed to collect my swarm box + board and cover cloth . On my return I found the swarm had absconded -not into the parent hive but completely away. I wasn't away for more than 5 minutes fetching my gear. I've no idea where they've gone or why they went so quickly. a bit of a mystery.

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## greengumbo

Well that was fun. Got a call from my wife to say the bees in the garden were "going bloody mental". Went home and found it had settled down and thre was a small swarm sitting next to the car in a gorse bush. Popped it into a paynes poly nuc and left it under the branches with nasonovs on full display at the entrance. Went back indoors to congratulate myself and have lunch then came out ten mins later to notice a second swarm about 10m away in gorse so have popped that into a decrepit old WBC hive I had kicking about. 

The thing is these are undoubtedly from a nucleus hive I split of a large colony a few weeks back. I had left 2 QCs in it but must have missed one more. I reckon these are casts. What would you recommend. Finding the virgins in the cast and killing them then adding the bees back to parent nuc OR chopping 1 virgin and combining the 2 casts ?

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## fatshark

Depending on time and enthusiasm available I'd also consider just chucking the two casts in together and seeing what develops … assuming you want another colony. Finding and culling the virgins might be a bit of a palaver.

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## greengumbo

> Depending on time and enthusiasm available I'd also consider just chucking the two casts in together and seeing what develops  assuming you want another colony. Finding and culling the virgins might be a bit of a palaver.


This is what I'm going to do. Might even grab a frame of brood from another overly strong hive and stick it in with them in one big melee.

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## The Drone Ranger

the swarming urge seems to be strong this month maybe the weather pattern
 Normally if they were hatching together you might expect them to fight it out ?

On a slight tangent quite a lot of the bees from my 2014 queens are producing yellow bums 
The queens are dark themselves and the odd thing is last season with the 2013 queens there wasn't much other than a small smattering of yellow workers
Wondered if that might be down to more Italian imports but the matings would have been spread though the Season of 2014
Hey! ho! at least they are all well behaved apart from two which manned by nut jobs  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

G.G.
Would a Marburg box help to combine swarms ?

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## greengumbo

> G.G.
> Would a Marburg box help to combine swarms ?


Just googled this and its a cool piece of kit ! Cheers for the advice  :Smile: 

Bit late for now as this dark and murky morning I went out and chucked both casts into the same nuc and sealed it up. Will move it to another apiary and feed a bit and then forget about it for a month  :Smile:

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## HJBee

Had a great beekeeping day yesterday. Went through my hives and made sure all is well. The big hive is starting to seal the 2 supers of honey, even while waiting for their new queen to hatch. I found this fellow under the roof - Violet Ground Beetle - Carabus violaceus, very handsome.

Then got a call from one of my beekeeping friends to say she thought her (currently queenless) bees were swarming. Nope her hive was pretty much as we'd left it in Thurs nights inspection, full of bees & sealed Q/C. So we had another persons bees swarm to her garden.  After knocking the bulk into a skep, and seeing the lovely Unmarked/Unclipped queen scurry to the bottom, they happily settled there. We then transferred them to a hive in the evening.

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## fatshark

Flight back from Edinburgh delayed so it was a really rush job in the apiaries this evening  finding mated queens, marking mated queens, dropping a mated queen (D'oh!) and failing to find or catch mated queens. I saw some of these as virgins a few days ago and it always amazes me how they plump up and get going. 

Being red/green colour blind I only mark with blue and white pens. I've only just realised that this is a 'blue' year and I've marked everything so far white. Perhaps that should be in the confessions thread.

Checked out a new apiary site on Friday and came across loads of these orchids  any ideas? Early purple perhaps? Eastern Fife. Appalling camera phone image, apologies.

2015-06-26 12.15.49 copy.jpg

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## HJBee

Don't know, but it's beautiful!

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## gavin

That's a Northern Marsh Orchid, _Dactlyorhiza_ _purpurella_.  You'll find it in Wales, Norn Iron, the Northern half of England and northwards.  Almost worth moving north for :-)  There are currently three finishing off their flowering just in front of the hives at my long-term site.  

This is the peak time for orchids.  Must see if I can find the time to take a day off and visit my favourite SWT reserve in highland Perthshire which boasts 8 different orchid species.

Another batch of grafts set up today.

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## Adam

> Well that was fun. Got a call from my wife to say the bees in the garden were "going bloody mental". Went home and found it had settled down and thre was a small swarm sitting next to the car in a gorse bush. Popped it into a paynes poly nuc and left it under the branches with nasonovs on full display at the entrance. Went back indoors to congratulate myself and have lunch then came out ten mins later to notice a second swarm about 10m away in gorse so have popped that into a decrepit old WBC hive I had kicking about. 
> 
> The thing is these are undoubtedly from a nucleus hive I split of a large colony a few weeks back. I had left 2 QCs in it but must have missed one more. I reckon these are casts. What would you recommend. Finding the virgins in the cast and killing them then adding the bees back to parent nuc OR chopping 1 virgin and combining the 2 casts ?


If you remove any queencells in the hive and put the swarms back in, they shouldn't swarm again and the queens will fight it out.

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## HJBee

Why do bees swarm with Virgin queens, surely a risky strategy, she might not come back from a mating flight? Also if she keeps going out, how do they know not to follow her? Why doesn't she kill off the remaining queens in cells, is this usual or unusual?

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## busybeephilip

Virgin warming - maybe AVM on a larger scale?
When she gets older she gets wiser and faster...
Sometimes she does kill the other queens/cells if weather gets bad

Good questions, wish I knew the answers, I'm sure someone knows.

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## fatshark

Quick inspection of a hive which should have had a new laying queen present  very gently smoked them, lifted off the supers and crownboard and was pleased to find a frame or so of eggs and larvae just where they should have been. All looking good. Somewhat less pleased to find a big clump of workers busily balling the queen on the next frame  :Mad:  Gently pushing them about with my fingers failed to dissuade them. Gave them a waft of smoke to disperse them and the queen ambled off apparently none the worse for wear. We'll see ...

_The bees know best_. 

Sometimes.

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## HJBee

Tonight helped home a swarm which seems to be a cast of a re-homed swarm from Saturday? The dafties had filled the only drawn frame with nectar / sugar syrup - maybe the new queen was too impatient for comb to be drawn and did one? But why would any of the workers stay. New swarm is sealed I'd with a queen excluder underneath this time.

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## Jon

fatshark - some colonies I have had ball the queen like that every time they are opened as a protection thing.
I don't have any like that at the moment but I had one that did it every time and I was always surprised to seethe queen alive and well and being balled at the next inspection.

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## fatshark

Well it was a new one to me Jon … interesting. They didn't look to be _protecting_ her. More like _mauling_ her. As I said, she's a relatively new Q raised in the hive … the workers will therefore be from her mother. They didn't show this before. They were really reluctant to let go when I pushed and prodded them. I'm going back into the colony tomorrow so it'll be interesting if they do it again.

Or if I have some one day old queen cells being drawn  :Frown: 

*Update* Couldn't see her, but no obvious queens cells either. However, the car thermometer told me it's 32 centigrade here on the way to the apiary and I was sweating like a piggy, so didn't exactly look hard for her.

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## The Drone Ranger

Todays news is I watched a swarm take off from the top of a willow tree and disappear 
Yesterday I was out all day so it probably clustered then
Still haven't figured out which hive it has come from

I took an educated and optimistic guess it might be No 25 hive which is headed up by the Freddy Kruger of queen bees
Needless to say I was half way through checking when the skies opened up and I got soaked to boot
She is still there unfortunately but by the time I established that, half the bees in the hive were bouncing off me
At one point I swear the drones were joining in as well 
If I had taken a few more minutes her majesty would have been leading the attack like  Napoleon 
Anyway wet, sweat and stung 3 times on finger 
Not a happy bunny

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## fatshark

DR, under those conditions I might have taken the opportunity of hastening her demise  

I opened a colony last year in a full-on thunderstorm, with heavy rain, lightning and drum-rolls of thunder. The bees were of Scottish stock from Colonsay. They stuck to the frames like glue, didn't budge and were completely docile. I was soaked and hugely relieved.

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## HJBee

Tonight we wandered past a series of Laurel bushes on our evening stroll, it was alive with honeybees, but I'm at a loss as to why? Anyone shed any thoughts? They had their proboscis out dabbing on the leaves & stems.

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## Bridget

Don't know the answer to that but does anyone know what this shrub is? In my years working in Livingston I've never seen a bee on any of the shrubs or trees but today this was covered in honey bees and bumbles



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## fatshark

The bees on the laurel are going for the extrafloral nectaries … I think they're on the younger leaves.

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## alancooper

> Don't know the answer to that but does anyone know what this shrub is? In my years working in Livingston I've never seen a bee on any of the shrubs or trees but today this was covered in honey bees and bumbles
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It looks like a Hebe.

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## Bridget

Could be but I'm used to Hebd being small ( probably stunted by the highland winds) and this was probably 3 ft high.  Hard to tell how wide as possibly many plants.


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## HJBee

> It looks like a Hebe.


It is a Hebe

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## HJBee

> The bees on the laurel are going for the extrafloral nectaries  I think they're on the younger leaves.


Thanks FS!

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## GRIZZLY

My bees are working the extrafloral  nectaries  on my broad bean plants and also those on the leaf bases of our cherry trees. Quite a few books  refer to these and its interesting finding the sites on various plants and seeing the bees on them.

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## alancooper

I have often noticed my bees on patches of non-flowering lamb's lettuce in my veg patch and also in short-grazed non-flowering specie-rich meadow - and assumed they were after water. Does anyone know if there is a list of plants with extra-floral nectaries somewhere?

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## chris

To avoid confusion in my mind (or what of it still functions) is this something completely different to the bees feeding off the secretions of aphids etc. ?

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## Adam

> Does anyone know if there is a list of plants with extra-floral nectaries somewhere?


BBKA Module 2 asks about such things. Beans and Cherry Laurel are two of the plants. Plum and  Cherry are two others. there are not many that exhibit this characteristic.

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## chris

> To avoid confusion in my mind (or what of it still functions) is this something completely different to the bees feeding off the secretions of aphids etc. ?


A quick search has educated me. Found this site interesting


http://www.wbrc.org.uk/WORCRECD/32/W...a-floral_.html

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## HJBee

[QUOTE=chris;30698]A quick search has educated me. Found this site interesting
/QUOTE]

Very interesting indeed

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR, under those conditions I might have taken the opportunity of hastening her demise  
> 
> I opened a colony last year in a full-on thunderstorm, with heavy rain, lightning and drum-rolls of thunder. The bees were of Scottish stock from Colonsay. They stuck to the frames like glue, didn't budge and were completely docile. I was soaked and hugely relieved.


Most of them are Ok but 2 for some reason are horrible.
They are on the requeening list.
I 'borrowed' one of Jon's queens from a friend I think she is expecting it back.
Really nice bees 
I holding on to her

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## lindsay s

Hi all because I’ve been very busy for the last six weeks this forum has taken a back seat, but I’m still out there trying to keep on top of my beekeeping.  The weather in June was worse than Mays with twice the average rainfall and well below average temperatures and sunshine. Orkneys colonies are now reaching their peak but up until the weekend there was very little forage coming in. The warm weather in the last few days has improved things greatly. The clover, although late, is now coming out and if we get a nice July and August all might not be lost.
Swarming has just started up here and on Thursday while paying a quick visit to my friend’s apiary I came across this prime swarm about midday. I knew she was away till late and I had to deal with it so I rushed home and came back about 40 minutes later with a nuc plus all the other paraphernalia needed to deal with the swarm.
Now here’s where I should be bragging about my textbook swarm collection and impressing all you beginners out there but things didn’t go quite to plan. Firstly I managed to brush about 90% of the bees off the tree trunk and into a cardboard box which I then dumped on the sheet in front of the nuc. The idea was for the bees to happily trundle into the nuc but they were having none of it and after about 10 minutes a cluster started to gather on a shrub nearby.  I left them for about half an hour to settle before dumping them in front of the nuc for a second time. This time the bees decided to enter the nuc with a little bit of help from me  and by the time I came back with some syrup nearly all of the bees were inside( I lifted the crown board to check). Before I left about 4 pm I contacted my friend and told her how pleased I was with the way things worked out.   
The next morning my friend was contacted by a neighbour who said a swarm had arrived in their garden about teatime the previous day.  Basically the swarm scoffed all the syrup I fed them and then left the nuc to spend all night on a shrub in the pouring rain. They have since been rehoused in another hive and moved to a slightly different location. With hindsight I think the nuc was a bit too small for the size of swarm but everything’s worked out fine in the end.

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## Mellifera Crofter

RIP Queen Whitebeam (2011-2015).  When I saw her last week I reluctantly followed advice and stopped trying to save her.  I found her this afternoon dead in front of the hive.  I think a new queen has just started laying - a few eggs are placed a bit skew-whiff.

IMG_6124.JPG

Apart from that, is anybody else also bothered by midgies while checking your colonies?  If I'm not complaining about the wind here on my hill, it's the midgies.  I think I'll have to get a bee suit with with midgie netting rather than bee netting.
Kitta

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## fatshark

That's a pretty good innings these days … I 'retired' an old girl today who had also provided excellent service but was very clearly failing. I don't name mine (numbering the colonies is as personal as it gets) … why was she called 'Whitebeam'?

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## Mellifera Crofter

I choose a name to remind me of where they emerged, or something else specific to that queen.  I have a queen Bell (from Belfast), a Queen Joan ( Jon) and a Queen Ranger.

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## Bridget

I'm standing in my bee house about to start an inspection.  One hive  is very full of bees so need to add another super.  It's very quiet in here except for the sound of thousands of bees working their little socks off.  Sounds like the patter of tiny raindrops.  However these bees are a bit fierce and intimidating so it's  double if not treble layers all over and one hive today and another tomorrow.  With the thick gloves I was finding it really hard to get a grip on the frames so last time tried a hinged frame holder which meant I could be a lot gentler and quicker.  Was hoping to try Gavin's BB lift but my frames are not the right way for that and being inside I can't get at them from the sides. 


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## fatshark

Extraction today … quite a few mixed frames of OSR and whatever followed it. Having spent the last few hours clinging onto the extractor I don't know why this bloke is smiling so much …

Fat-Belt-3.jpg

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## Bridget

So there I was on Sunday tra-lalling about the patter of little bee feet etc. etc 



> I'm standing in my bee house about to start an inspection.  One hive  is very full of bees so need to add another super.  It's very quiet in here except for the sound of thousands of bees working their little socks off.  Sounds like the patter of tiny raindrops.  However these bees are a bit fierce and intimidating so it's  double if not treble layers all over and one hive today and another tomorrow.  With the thick gloves I was finding it really hard to get a grip on the frames so last time tried a hinged frame holder which meant I could be a lot gentler and quicker.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Following my now good advice to our local association I waited until my husband returned and then weighed in.  Amidst the raging kerfuffle of my horrid bees I was just exclaiming to my self about the 95% capped brood frame on the second frame in when smoker went out. As I was trying to relight it i realised too much tra-lalling had resulted in lack of concentration and I had two stings under the chin.  Retreat called, off with all the layers and very quickly felt unwell.  NHS 24 called (don't do this folks, just ring 999) and after being ill all over the bedroom the boys in green arrived and set about sorting me out.  Blood pressure in my boots, which they failed to sort out so off to Raigmore it was, but nothing fancy like blue light.  When I got there I was recovering and told I wasn't interesting enough for RESUS, where they were all waiting, so into A&E.  Kept in over night given stuff for BP and out all OK the next day if a little shaky.  A&E doc said it might be a conflict with a beta blocker that caused the sudden drop, and they gave me a couple of EPI pens, but was not told to give up beekeeping for good. 
So the plan, and I would be grateful for any input here, is to turn beekeeping for this season over to my husband and some local friend beeks to help him.  , There has been no sign recently of any swarming and both queens were late last summer supercedures, plenty of space with two brood boxes and 2 supers on each and masses of forage around here and the heather in under a month. So we will let them get on with it - they are so foul and if they do swarm they won't be missed.  
Just before the heather is out we will take off any sealed blossom honey and give them back the wet frames to fill, along with the remaining super, with heather honey.  End of September take off heather honey, do varroa control feed etc etc.  
Meanwhile I have two gentle queens being raised in Drumgerry's apiary, the intention was to re-queen these hives with some of his lovely genes (well his bees genes, not his).  I will bring them back here when its time for them to go into nucs and over winter them here. In spring kill off the grumpy queens and combine.  Does this seem like a plan.  I thought of killing off the queens in the autumn but this way I'll have a chance of getting more colonies through the winter. 
I'm also going to ask my GP for a test to see how allergic I am.  Meanwhile I will try not to go anywhere near them, but I miss the daily checking of what they are up to.  :Frown:   Its a great shame as they have been such prolific bees and flying in all but the wet, through the cold and cloudy.
Onwards and upwards
Bridget

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## The Drone Ranger

are you using a full bee suit Bridget ? 
All in one I mean
When I wear a jacket and separate trousers they often get in

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## Bridget

If you could see me dressed and ready to go Drone Ranger, you would laugh - every precaution including three layers including the full bee suit.  My fault, I forgot to double check the velcro under my chin

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...My fault, I forgot to double check the velcro under my chin


Big mistake - and one I make so often.  In fact, I just forget to completely zip up my hood, and then find a bee in my bonnet. Fortunately I've never had an experience like yours.  I hope you can get back to the bees soon.
Kitta

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## fatshark

I'd be tempted to requeen them sooner rather than later Bridget. But that's because I value the pleasure I get from beekeeping a bit more than the honey I get from beekeeping. Not sure I fully understand the "getting more colonies through the winter" comment … surely it's 2 (horrid colonies) + 2 (nucs with dg's genes) or just 2 requeened colonies? Although they'd probably be easier to requeen in the spring that's a long time away to be spent (having others) dealing with unpleasant colonies. I presume nucs overwinter well in your bee house?

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## gavin

Sorry to hear that.  Definitely see your GP.  There is a test called a RAST test, or at least there was when I went through this some years ago.  It gave a 1-5 rating which lead on to a desensitisation course in my case.

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## HJBee

> Sorry to hear that.  Definitely see your GP.  There is a test called a RAST test, or at least there was when I went through this some years ago.  It gave a 1-5 rating which lead on to a desensitisation course in my case.


Same with me, I've finished my extensive weekly venom jags recently & now on the monthly ones for the next 2 years. Apart from the start in the winter months, I've been at the bees without a break.  I take a daily Fexofenadine 180mg tablet and carry an epi pen, double layer incl gloves (blue nitrile over leather). I was stung last week (right after my monthly jag) survived and although still a large red & itchy patch developed gradually over the 24 hours to peak the next day (this is a unique thing according to the clinicians I'm under), but it's no where as bad as what I was experiencing last year. My fault, I was too busy gabbing that I didn't zip my veil. However, it's a personal choice I'm lucky I have no other ailments, if I did or had full anaphylaxis I may of decided otherwise. H

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## Bridget

> Sorry to hear that.  Definitely see your GP.  There is a test called a RAST test, or at least there was when I went through this some years ago.  It gave a 1-5 rating which lead on to a desensitisation course in my case.


Yes Gavin I will.  This link provides some useful information about a new campaign to help people with allergies to bees. 
http://beeresistant.com/



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## Bridget

> I'd be tempted to requeen them sooner rather than later Bridget. But that's because I value the pleasure I get from beekeeping a bit more than the honey I get from beekeeping. Not sure I fully understand the "getting more colonies through the winter" comment  surely it's 2 (horrid colonies) + 2 (nucs with dg's genes) or just 2 requeened colonies? Although they'd probably be easier to requeen in the spring that's a long time away to be spent (having others) dealing with unpleasant colonies. I presume nucs overwinter well in your bee house?


Well I really do like honey Fatshark.....but one queen is not marked and will be really hard to find at present what with all their tempers.  I don't think it fair to ask some else to work with these bees at present.  By the time the brood has dwindled sufficiently and the heather stopped ( and we have three weeks away in Septemer) it will be early October and I am presuming that is too late to re queen.  I over wintered a queen last year in the bee house. Mind you, when it comes to making up the nucs if they were better behaved we could try with the marked queen colony. 



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## fatshark

I've no experience with late requeening _i.e._ after September, so perhaps your plan is the best. Certainly finding an unmarked Q in a box of psychos is not for the faint hearted and not something you can fairly ask someone else to do (though many of those on here who raise queens will have been asked by others to do this - I know I have).

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## Feckless Drone

> ....but one queen is not marked and will be really hard to find at present what with all their tempers.


Oh Bridget -  that Q needs dealt with her. I've been there after a particular Q was ruining my beekeeping. After being beaten back a couple of times I eventually dealt with her. I let the problem drift but never again - here's a suggestion based on ideas from others for a strategy that helped me. On a really good day, take the bees out of the beehouse some distance away but leave some frames/super in place, (flyers will off, return and reduce numbers) then split whats left into two (thats what I did) or three nuc boxes. Wait 15 minutes and listen (you might not need 15 mins). The quiet box will have the Q. Now you are looking for a Q in a nuc. I use a damp towel to cover frames not being looked at. What you do with her depends on what you have available. I was lucky in that I had access to a replacement Q (Thanks Gav) but the potential for a rogue colony is one reason I try to ensure I've always got a backup Q on site. I'm sure someone would be willing to help - how about a beginner who needs to learn about finding Qs (and of how nasty a colony can be)?

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## The Drone Ranger

> If you could see me dressed and ready to go Drone Ranger, you would laugh - every precaution including three layers including the full bee suit.  My fault, I forgot to double check the velcro under my chin


Hi Bridget
I would attempt the requeen now because if it doesn't go to plan there is just time to do it again
Almost all commercially produced queens are to be guaranteed to produce gentle bees
Luckily you have a couple of queens already on hand thanks to Drumgerry 
Things will start getting better right away after the requeen and 6 weeks later everything Hunky Dory
A possible way is take the original hive off to the side and after a few hours lift the combs out one at a time and move each one to a spare box until the crazy queens are found

Its tempting to leave it as is but I have always regretted that in the past 
I sometimes have to relearn that lesson but it's always a mistake to leave I am certain
Martha Carnie (sic) did it on the TV last year while I shouted NO! NO! NO! at the screen lol!

Feckless drone has a better suggestion if you have the equipment
I'm slow typing

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## gavin

Where's the SBAi 'Like' button?!

Keep one of those nucs you've just created and slip in that queen in a cage you organised in advance.  Then what?  Various options.  Reconstruct the monster and go through it again in a week (when it will be in a *really* bad mood) to remove queen cells.  Mark and clip the original queen and return her to the original site for a week with all the bees except the nuc with the new queen and remove the old queen 6 hours before combining.  Maybe return one frame of brood to the original site (makes it easy to deal with the queen cells there) and keep the rest in nuc boxes until the new queen has settled for a week and can be combined with all the rest (after removing queen cells).  Life is full of choices!

Bear in mind that these bad-tempered colonies often calm down again (to some extent) when the nectar gets flowing again.

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## The Drone Ranger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nagC41Pe4c4
my final word  :Smile:

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## mbc

> Where's the SBAi 'Like' button?!
> .


Green and red rep is always amusing on forums.

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## Bridget

Thanks to you all for your help and thoughts.  Poor Drumgerry has drawn the short straw to give us a hand - some of it sounds a bit complicated, I think I will need a flowchart to see how it all works, and I will get together some helpers as well and  the queens will be found and dispatched henceforth.  
We will let you know!

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## fatshark

> Oh Bridget -  that Q needs dealt with her. [snip] I'm sure someone would be willing to help - how about a beginner who needs to learn about finding Qs (and of how nasty a colony can be)?


How did I miss this fantastic suggestion the first time round?  :Wink:

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## Emma

Yesterday, the sound I'd been waiting for:
the cathedral choir of foragers, humming in the vault of limes. 
Best sound of the year :-) :-) :-)
...then the rain started again. Same again this morning :-(
Oh well, at least it won't be too dry for the nectar to flow!

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## Mellifera Crofter

My colonies at the croft are chucking out drone larvae, and even the occasional drone.  I think they've been terribly hive-bound lately - perhaps that's the reason.
Kitta

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## Feckless Drone

Rained off inspections yesterday - but did see that colonies had more stores three weeks ago than now, and that's not much. Looks like my Qs have really cut down on laying so going to be a miserable crop for me.
Comment for Fatshark - leave half your supers down south, you will not need them up here!

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## GRIZZLY

Bridget if push really comes to shove you can always find the queen by filtering all the bees thro' a q excluder over an empty box, using another box over the top as a funnel. You shake each frame of bees into the top box when they will run down to the bottom box. When you've done say three frames these can be placed down into the bottom box which encourages the bees to run down.you check the top of the queen excluder and eventually you wil find the q trapped on top to squish as neccessary. This method is quite disruptive to the bees so should be used as a last resort.  Ive used this method with success at this time of year when colonies get so huge and queens are unmarked and impossible to find. Hope this helps. Sorry to hear you've become alergic  -  could this have started on colonsay ?.

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## The Drone Ranger

> My colonies at the croft are chucking out drone larvae, and even the occasional drone.  I think they've been terribly hive-bound lately - perhaps that's the reason.
> Kitta


How are they for stores Kitta ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> How are they for stores Kitta ?


They were fine, DR, and strong colonies. Two of the more vigorous chucker-outers were my AMM queens.  Perhaps it's instinct!  They know about our weather.

I did not see the same thing at my more sheltered out-apiary, although it's more difficult to spot it there as only a few have landing spaces in front of their hives.  But I did see a few bees biting some poor drones' legs.

However, they are all tucking into their capped honey.

I should have said 'pupae'! Tisk tisk.

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## The Drone Ranger

Its always worrying when you see them chuck out some of the brood 
Who would be a drone given the choice  :Smile: 

Robbing to look forward to next 
I had to use a cover cloth over my paynes nucs when marking the new queens because of other bees trying to get in

7 new queens marked yesterday and two were replacing key members of the wild bunch (vicious hives )
I gave them a long time since the last inspection to let the new queens replace most of the old aggressive bees (there were 3 hives)
The third member of the gang should have had their new queen marked as well but instead there were 4 frames of solid brood and two queen cells smack in the middle of the comb 
Couldn't spot her and it looks like she is being superceded so I just left the cells alone 
Nice temperament now so I hope the replacement carries on the good work

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## prakel

First rain (worth the title) of the summer. If only we'd had it a month ago...

Spent yesterday's rather nicer afternoon driving bees from some 'experimental' (didn't have enough frames to hand when they were made up) mating hives of approx mp size. Interesting experience -and a surprisingly simple job too.

The bee-less brood comb was then cut out, fixed into new frames and returned to the bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

Went through a few hives today between about 4.30 and 5.30
One had a queen to be marked and typically I couldn't find her 
The bees were ok and so I didnt use smoke 
After a while gave up and closed the hive at which point a number of deranged bees started an all out attack on my mobile phone case
They were stinging the lining of it in droves. 
If the thing had been alive it wouldn't have been dead now
Reached for the smoker -- gone out as usual -- into pocket for matches -- left them in bee shed 
The spirit of Chucky has taken hold of these idiot bees so now I leave the phone where it is and trudge back for matches
Smoker going full blast I drive them off and hide the phone (android) --- they may be Apple fans.

On to the next one 
This is a Nuc with another unmarked queen 
I get the pooter, the marking cage, and the pen ready
The lid of the pen is stiff so I take it off first
Queen spotted --- caught in pooter-- about to put in marking cage 
No!!! knocked the pen lid into the feed slot of the Paynes nuc
Its too deep for hive tool so it's off to a nearby tree for a long twig
Now I'm standing there like chimpanzee with a stick looking for bugs
Cant get the thing out!
Back for a second long twig --- finally the lid of the pen accepts defeat and comes back up.
Ok now I mark the queen-- after which she wont come out of the cage and when she does she goes right on the frame edge waiting to be squashed
I give her a gentle poke --- instead of moving she falls to the bottom of the nuc

Right that's it ---tools away--- enough beekeeping for one afternoon -- grrr....

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## fatshark

> Right that's it ---tools away--- enough beekeeping for one afternoon -- grrr....


We have a confessions thread for stuff like this  :Wink: 

Is the phone case black by any chance? I regularly have a small black camera with me and the bees quite often take a disliking to it. Even when stood innocuously on a hive roof (the camera, not me) they still give it hell.

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## The Drone Ranger

> We have a confessions thread for stuff like this 
> 
> Is the phone case black by any chance? I regularly have a small black camera with me and the bees quite often take a disliking to it. Even when stood innocuously on a hive roof (the camera, not me) they still give it hell.


Yes Black  :Smile: 

This is just normal beekeeping at the moment I will save the confessions for when something really goes wrong  :Smile:

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## gavin

I was also doing some early evening beekeeping tonight, and trying to mark and clip queens.  Three escaped my grasp.  One disappeared down behind the hive into the depths of two pallets, another made a bid for freedom *after* I'd clipped a wing and I saw a quick spiral but didn't know if it had made it into the hive or not.  One leapt and fell on the top bars and I just left it.  

I'd been waiting for the queens to 'settle in' but have been lured into a false sense of security by a slight improvement in temper in the last couple of days.  Nah, month old queens are too early, at least with this feisty ex-Moidart stock. 

Also feeding nucs some of which are critically low on stores in the midst of plenty (including a half-decent lime flow).

By the time I was done the hive entrances had all settled down.  I reckon they all made it back home.

PS My current notebook pen is grey with black bits at the tip.  They really don't like the tip of that pen.  Probably it is reminiscent of the eye of some creature intent on robbing the hive.

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## Bridget

Thanks Grizzly.  I'm lucky that Fraser has been happy to step up to head beekeeper rather than loose the bees.  And Drumgerry is going to help with the re queening.  Hopefully I can get the desensitisation and be back next year.  Meanwhile my horrible bees have been good as gold for Fraser and we have just taken off a super of honey.  No I don't think this like Colonsay.  I've never before been allergic to anything, but always had a localised reaction to bee, cleg, mosquito and other insect bites or stings.  


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## The Drone Ranger

"'I'd been waiting for the queens to 'settle in' but have been lured into a false sense of security by a slight improvement in temper in the last couple of days"

When will they invent a beesuit that stops them getting through Gavin thats what I wan't to know  :Smile:

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## Kate Atchley

> I was also doing some early evening beekeeping tonight, and trying to mark and clip queens.  Three escaped my grasp.  One disappeared down behind the hive into the depths of two pallets, another made a bid for freedom *after* I'd clipped a wing and I saw a quick spiral but didn't know if it had made it into the hive or not.  One leapt and fell on the top bars and I just left it.  
> 
> I'd been waiting for the queens to 'settle in' but have been lured into a false sense of security by a slight improvement in temper in the last couple of days.  Nah, month old queens are too early, at least with this feisty ex-Moidart stock.


Do pop over to Moidart Gavin, to see how it's done! 

Marked and clipped a few queens yesterday and thankfully none escaped though did they wriggle. One's a "runner" and I had a job catching her but laying brilliantly. Posting first queens on Monday ... do I mark the envelope?

Oh, and failed mating from mini-nucs without brood: how long to leave the bees queenless or is it best to unite? They'll be ageing.

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## prakel

> failed mating from mini-nucs without brood: how long to leave the bees queenless or is it best to unite? They'll be ageing.


I unite and then re-divide as required. Reckon a fresh start is a far better use of resources than trying to fix a failure.

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## Kate Atchley

> I unite and then re-divide as required. Reckon a fresh start is a far better use of resources than trying to fix a failure.


Thanks Prakel ... curious how much is written about _setting up_ mating nucs and how little detail is offered about managing them. I found the occasional helpful sentence in Oliver Field's _Field Notes on Queen Rearing_ and Larry Connor's _Queen Rearing Essentials_. Any other books recommended for this? 

Seems ripe for an article for _The Scottish Beekeeper_ or _BeeCraft_ ... maybe I'll write it to be corrected by avid experts!

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## prakel

> Seems ripe for an article for _he Scottish Beekeeper_ or _BeeCraft_ ... maybe I'll write it to be corrected by avid experts!


Oh yes, always easier to correct someone who's made the effort to put the groundwork in than to take the plunge by outlining their own methods  :Smile: .

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## prakel

> curious how much is written about _setting up_ mating nucs and how little detail is offered about managing them. I found the occasional helpful sentence in Oliver Field's _Field Notes on Queen Rearing_ and Larry Connor's _Queen Rearing Essentials_. Any other books recommended for this?


The much underatted "Practical Queen Production in the North" by Carl Jurica has some unassuming comment on this stuff. Well worth a read.

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## Kate Atchley

> The much underatted "Practical Queen Production in the North" by Carl Jurica has some unassuming comment on this stuff. Well worth a read.


Thanks for the suggestions. Can't find a copy ... maybe has one they'd like to sell?

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## prakel

A friend of Dr Jurica's sells them for him on ebay.com.

edit: off topic background info:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc..._JSfLBoXQEL5sA

but it does contain this great quote:




> When I play here, I drink honey all day, he said. When I played semi-pro football, Id drink two pounds of honey before every game. I was a running back and I never got tired. The alpha glucose goes right into my blood stream. I dont use those other kinds of drinks.

----------


## Bridget

> When will they invent a beesuit that stops them getting through Gavin thats what I wan't to know


Oh I agree 


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## mbc

> A friend of Dr Jurica's sells them for him on ebay.com.
> 
> edit: off topic background info:
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc..._JSfLBoXQEL5sA
> 
> but it does contain this great quote:


Brilliant, must spread.

----------


## gavin

It is going to be 12C tops tomorrow, 12C!!  And that is at midnight.  It goes downhill from there, staying at 10C or 11C for the rest of the 24 hours.  And there will be a stiff NE breeze. 

Watching the forecast a week or two back caused me to hesitate getting colonies up the hills. They seem to have more chance of finding something in the sheltered lowlands even if a semi-decent lime crop is unlikely.  Even better, they are not as far away and so feeding is easier.  All my smaller colonies have feed on them now.

----------


## GRIZZLY

We seem to be getting a succession of mini flows down here. One minute no activity then a frantic dash out for a couple of hours then it all subsides again. Himalayan balsam now in full flower and is attracting swarms of bumble bees of all colours. My bees seem indifferent to it at the moment., they've obviously got a better source elsewhere. After yesterdays sunshine - its been pouring down all morning - thank heavens I managed to cut my 1 acre of lawn yesterday.

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## Kate Atchley

Weather better than forecast: around 15-16C and rain held off during long session in the apiary ... queens due from Colonsay this week and some of ours going out. 

Trying a late batch of queens and, lo and behold, found eggs in 2 of the queen cups on the cell-raiser frame put there for familiarisation before grafting. Using Pasaga Ramic method so this was in bottom box, bees roaring queenless, with the queen above a Snelgrove Board. Proof of eggs moved by workers? (from a frame of mostly-capped brood which must have had an occasional egg). Replaced these with larvae and will watch with interest.

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## Jon

Kate. I see eggs in cups quite often. They are laid by workers I think. I was showing this to some of the members of our queen rearing group last Monday as a frame in a queenless colony had several eggs in the cups. This is a cell starter which has been queenless for about a month.

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## fatshark

Swarm of bees on the goalpost at Oldham Athletic footy ground  cue a series of rubbish jokes  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Oh I agree 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If Bee suits had a CE standard like motorcycle protective equipment then they would be made better and offer real protection

They all work great until the bees really want to sting you 
Then you end up relying on what's underneath the thing
What's the point in that ?
Even a Primark sweatshirt underneath does a better job of keeping stings out
As for single layer fencing hoods that's just an invitation to get stung in the head 
Of course we should be wearing a hat as well I suppose

The sooner either the European CE mark or some BSI  standard has to be met the better
Most of them are just a cheap boiler suit with a hood on

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## Kate Atchley

> Kate. I see eggs in cups quite often. They are laid by workers I think... a cell starter which has been queenless for about a month.


Jon, these bees had been separated from their queen for less than 24 hours. It seems unlikely there was a laying worker?

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## prakel

I don't think that it's that uncommon for a few laying workers to be present in queenright hives although they're kept under check by the rest of the colony -sure I've seen some research on this. This might also go some way to explaining why some strains (the ones which tolerate a few through the season) seem to go into laying worker melt-down much quicker than others -they're already there.

Of couse, I'd rather believe that you're half way to developing a line which actually does the grafting for you (might tempt me back to grafting  if that was the case!).

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## Kate Atchley

Thanks Prakel. Fascinating re the laying workers.




> Of course, I'd rather believe that you're half way to developing a line which actually does the grafting for you (might tempt me back to grafting  if that was the case!).


Ahah! Yes I was tempted to leave those eggs and see how they developed.

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## prakel

No valid reason not to leave them... Probably a worthwhile thing to do actually. You could always cut the cells open shortly before expected emergence to see what's in them so as to save tying up mating nucs.

edit: *Egg-laying, egg-removal, and ovary development by workers in queenright honey bee colonies* by Ratnieks.





> The study investigates whether worker policing via the selective removal of worker-laid male eggs occurs in normal honey bee colonies with a queen. Queenright honey bee colonies were set up with the queen below a queen excluder. Frames of worker brood and drone comb were placed above the queen excluder. Daily inspections of the drone frames revealed the presence of a few eggs, presumably laid by workers, at a rate of 1 egg per 16000 drone cells. 85% of these eggs were removed within 1 day and only 2% hatched. Dissections of workers revealed that about 1 worker in 10000 had a fully developed egg in her body. These data show that worker egg-laying and worker policing are both normal, though rare, in queenright honey bee colonies, and provide further confirmation of the worker policing hypothesis.

----------


## Feckless Drone

> Swarm of bees on the goalpost at Oldham Athletic footy ground  cue a series of rubbish jokes


Definitely not mine! Unlike the small swarm that landed 6 feet away from my garden bait hive. I was able to check the possible source at the weekend and there was the cell I left, empty, then nearby a missed Q-cell. I promise you, looked like drone cell, apart from being bit dimpled at the end now. I opened and out waddled VQ. Guess I'll take the super off that one now.  I'll try to bring on the two colonies now and see if I can get them up to strength to winter as nucs. Only crumb of comfort is that they are not the A. m. chuckii that DR is raising up in darkest Angus.

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## gavin

In case it helps, supers seem pretty much optional this season anyway!

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## busybeephilip

> In case it helps, supers seem pretty much optional this season anyway!


need to give the bees somewhere to shelter from the wet, wet and more wet

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## fatshark

No consolation I'm sure but it's also utter rubbish in the Midlands as well ... I've just moved my final colony down here. It's now only drizzling after 4 days with more rain than anything else. The fields are heavy clay. My boots and the wheelbarrow are covered in cloying mud. The hive was big and very heavy, but my boots were heavier. 

Horrible.

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## lindsay s

> When will they invent a beesuit that stops them getting through Gavin thats what I wan't to know
> Most of them are just a cheap boiler suit with a hood on


This not so cheap boiler suit should do the trick. I'm asking Santa for one this Christmas. :Wink: 
http://www.bjsherriff.co.uk/product/beepro-khaki/

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## lindsay s

:Big Grin: 


> It is going to be 12C tops tomorrow, 12C!!  And that is at midnight.  It goes downhill from there, staying at 10C or 11C for the rest of the 24 hours.  And there will be a stiff NE breeze.


Welcome to the realities of Orkneys beekeeping. That was our weather for most of May and June. We are having a good spell up here at the moment, 14c sunny and the bees are working flat out. I dealt with a swarm today and the house holder even offered to pay me for taking it away. I didnt have the cheek to accept it because unknown to him the swarm had come from my apiary. :Big Grin:

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## The Drone Ranger

> This not so cheap boiler suit should do the trick. I'm asking Santa for one this Christmas.
> http://www.bjsherriff.co.uk/product/beepro-khaki/


Looks ok but what about that price ouch!
it still says
"General clothing should be worn under this suit which should not be worn on bare skin." 

Tell you what Lindsay because its so wet and the grass is long I bought a pair of Lidl waterproof trousers
I have never been stung through them ( I have jeans on as well I suppose)

My theory is if the surface is slick bees can't get a grip
To sting they cling on and curve the business end round
Anything that gives them a grip like denim etc is a guarantee you will get stung
The mesh idea is good though

http://ultrabreezesuits.com/suit/order_2011.htm

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## gavin

I bought a Sherriff this spring at the Ulster Beekeepers Convention (I'll be back next year to see Tom Seeley!).  It was £105 rather than >£350 and is my favourite bee suit so far by far.  With a flimsier one earlier this summer I sometimes needed to put on a jumper to keep them from stinging me through suit and T-shirt.  The Sherriff is just great, and the mesh much more substantial than others so I'm not worried about the odd spark from the smoker making it leaky.

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## gavin

> The hive was big and very heavy, but my boots were heavier.


Sounds like you are bringing them north with plenty of stores.  Wise move  :Smile: .

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## Mellifera Crofter

I changed a colony from a Paynes hive to a Bee Hive Supplies hive recently.  The BHS hive has a kind of porch entrance rather than a straight walk-into entrance as in a Paynes, and this is a picture of how I found them this morning.  I don't know whether it means they just like sitting around outside under the shelter of the porch; or whether they feel they ought to be there to better guard the hive as the actual entrance is now a bit hidden; or whether the entrance became too congested for them all to go inside (and I should be worried).  They did not do this in the Paynes.
Kitta
IMG_20150728_080125.jpg

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## prakel

*Suits:* aquired a Mann Lake suit (with hat and wire box veil which has always been my personal preference but they do fencing hoods too) earlier this year. Got to say that in my personal oppinion the build quality of the suit is far better than any of the others I've ever purchased in the UK -and yes, I have used both of the 'big' names and been pleased with them in the past. Knew it was going to be quality even before taking it out of the bag simply by the weight of the thing.

edit: this was the one, but they do expensive suits too for those who like to spend as much as they can  :Smile:

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## Bridget

> Looks ok but what about that price ouch!
> it still says
> "General clothing should be worn under this suit which should not be worn on bare skin." 
> 
> Tell you what Lindsay because its so wet and the grass is long I bought a pair of Lidl waterproof trousers
> I have never been stung through them ( I have jeans on as well I suppose)
> 
> My theory is if the surface is slick bees can't get a grip
> To sting they cling on and curve the business end round
> ...


Trouble both those suits have the two zips that meet below the chin, these zips can move apart and are difficult to close properly as you can't see them - this was my downfall.  Has anyone tried that mega expensive one?  It would be good to here a review.



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## Bridget

> need to give the bees somewhere to shelter from the wet, wet and more wet


This is where the bee house is good.  In the winter cold it is only a couple or three degrees warmer than outside but it is never damp.  I can light cardboard that's been in there for over a year.  The hives are about 2 ft above the ground and protected from damp with the shed floor, the platform they sit on above the floor and their hive floor. Several local bee keepers lost colonies in the wet spring yet ours are doing well.  Also the hive entrance is set back from the bee house entrance.  
May be we were lucky this year of course.  


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## Calluna4u

As C4U suggested, I've moved the discussion on the risk of starvation to its own thread ('Starvation alert') and will leaving grafting discussion here.  So the whole original post is over there.  G. 

You mention the Apideas, we have been having to feed them weekly now for at least a month, ditto the Kielers. The cell builders stopped doing more than a couple of cells on each graft about two weeks back, only responding better if fed continuously. Have now pulled the plug on all new grafts and cells for the season and winding the unit down for winter, a couple of weeks earlier than planned. The July queens are probably going to be problematical for mating quality and we are finding too many drone layers again, as was the case in May. Not a good season for the project, though the June queens are looking very nice.

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## Jon

I am still getting grafts started ok, about 90% in queenless starters and around 50% in queenright starters.
The last decent mating day we had here was Sunday 19th July and thankfully a lot of mine flew and mated that day.
It was 19c and sunny all afternoon but that seems like a long time ago now!
I graft a couple of batches per week and the problem is they start to back up in the apideas and the clock is ticking.
In an ideal world you put in a ripe cell which emerges the next day with mating taking place about a week later.
10-14 days after that the queen is ready to remove from the apidea.
If they take 3-4 weeks to start laying it changes all the calculations about what you can get per apidea and there will be a few drone layers as well.
I average about 2.5 per apidea but in theory you could get 4 queens per season if everything was perfect especially the weather.
That's not going to happen in NI.
June was good here, and the first few days of July.
The other problem with mini-nucs in August is the wasps especially if they have to be fed as it attracts them.

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## busybeephilip

Hi jon,

Wasps are already a problem for me, i've lost a few mini nucs to wasps already and like Calluna4u have stopped any grafting.  Also noticed the wasps sniffing around the full size hives trying to get access at the entrance edges.   I'm also feeding syrup to some colonies that have no supers and down sizing entrances were practical.   Maybe an indian summer come September.

what worries me more is varroa, the levels are higher than this time last year and i cant treat till the supers are off, I'm considering treating with OA gas using a home made sublimox as soon as supers are off.  I was quoted a ridiculous amount of Euros to obtain one of these from Italy so there is a new DIY sublimox project brewing as I type

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## Jon

I had that PHD student from NUIG at my allotment apiary 2 weeks ago and we sampled most of the colonies accurately using icing sugar to dust mites off a measured sample of 300 bees. One of the colonies dropped over 60 mites. It only had a couple of frames of sealed brood so I removed those and treated it with Oxalic trickle the next day. The rest of them will need to be treated by mid August at the latest as mite levels were generally high. I had a 3k tub of Apiguard delivered yesterday and I have Oxalic for anything broodless.

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## Kate Atchley

> Trouble both those suits have the two zips that meet below the chin, these zips can move apart and are difficult to close properly as you can't see them - this was my downfall.  Has anyone tried that mega expensive one?  It would be good to here a review.


Began beekeeping 20 years ago with a standard Sherriff suit which, though expensive then, was relatively less so, if you see what I mean. It has lasted brilliantly wel and still in good condition though I had a new mesh fitting by Sherriff last summer when my darned holes began coming apart. 

Now I also have a lightweight one from BBWear (fairly expensive but not as per Sherriff: see [URL="http://www.bbwear.co.uk/clothing/fullsuits/rr101.html"]). This is my favourite, by far. An excellent suit in dense but light, soft fabric. Possibly it's not the best choice if you have super-feisty bees trying to sting through clothing ... can't vouch for that either way.

Both have Velcro beneath the zip join in the front of the veil so, if you remember to press the zip ends down, this makes sure no bees can wander in, even if a zip is not quite closed. Both companies offer veil replacement if/when this is necessary.

For committed beekeepers, I think it's a false economy to buy a cheap suit. Those I have tried or witnessed in use generally have clumsy, ill-fitting zips, heavy material and few pockets. They are very hot in sunny weather (even in the Highlands). Having said that, we plan to buy from Simonthebeekeeper for visitor suits for the Amm apiary. Remarkable value and reasonably well made.

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## Kate Atchley

> This is where the bee house is good.


Would love to have a bee house here in Ardnamurchan. Maybe I could come over to see your some time Bridget?
Kate

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## busybeephilip

Yes, 60 mites in 300 bees is a bit high and thats what I'm afraid of, as soon as the brood nest shrinks those mites will be competing for the brood resulting in a load of deformed wings in the autumn and colony collapse, and this bad weather means that fewer  mites will be lost in the field

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## Jon

> Yes, 60 mites in 300 bees is a bit high and thats what I'm afraid of, as soon as the brood nest shrinks those mites will be competing for the brood resulting in a load of deformed wings in the autumn and colony collapse, and this bad weather means that fewer  mites will be lost in the field


Sure is! Depending who you ask the recommended treatment threshold is either 3+ or 6+.
Randy Oliver has a load of stuff about mite counting on his site.
Lots of mine had a mite count in the 20s for the 300 bee sample.
All looks ok at the moment but a lot of those would collapse in the autumn if treatment did not take place in August.

----------


## derekm

> I changed a colony from a Paynes hive to a Bee Hive Supplies hive recently.  The BHS hive has a kind of porch entrance rather than a straight walk-into entrance as in a Paynes, and this is a picture of how I found them this morning.  I don't know whether it means they just like sitting around outside under the shelter of the porch; or whether they feel they ought to be there to better guard the hive as the actual entrance is now a bit hidden; or whether the entrance became too congested for them all to go inside (and I should be worried).  They did not do this in the Paynes.
> Kitta
> Attachment 2349


I 've seen this numerous times on this hive. I'm inclined to think it may be that bees loiter in warmer entrances. In our PIR hives the entrance tunnels are always well occupied by bees. In fact it can take some work to get them all out. Why ? Defence or even heat retention I.e. The hives insulating walls are the other sides of the cluster? but this behaviour seems limited to only very well insulated hives with certain entrances.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I'm inclined to think it may be that bees loiter in warmer entrances. ...


Thanks Derek - I'll stop worrying then.  They just like hanging out on the 'stoep'.  I wish my own house on my wild hill had a stoep like that.
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Having said that, we plan to buy from Simonthebeekeeper for visitor suits for the Amm apiary. Remarkable value and reasonably well made.


I have one of his lightweight suits bought for helping out 
My beat up old BB wear jacket stays at home (bio security)
The fencing veil needs a hat underneath or you will get stung on the head
£35 but not recommended
Its predecessor was from Solway bees and the hood zip jammed on day one and Mrs DR had to repair it
 They had stitched a straight zip in a circle by putting a few kinks in it Again about £30 
Not so many stings got through that one though

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## Kate Atchley

Grafted in my usual way on Sunday and switched boxes round Monday (per Pasaga Ramic). Took a quick look at the cell-raising frame and this curtain of bees looked good: see pic ...

P1010925.jpeg

Today found one solitary cell being drawn from 16, and that one not yet quite capped, so slow. Bees well fed with syrup.

The weather has continued to be cold and wet and the bees seem to have gone on queen-raising strike. Should I give up or try again if the conditions improve? Very disheartening.

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## The Drone Ranger

Are you using the Cloake board method or a queenless cell raiser Kate
I googled Pasaga Ramic and came up with a list of Indian Restaurants

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## Kate Atchley

> Are you using the Cloake board method or a queenless cell raiser Kate
> I googled Pasaga Ramic and came up with a list of Indian Restaurants


Prakel wrote about this last year and uses it successfully. Try Googling <Elgon/Pasaga Ramic method>. It's here in the Forum in "Queen raising 2014" where Prakel gave references on 04.07.2014: 

"There are blog entries describing the method by Erik Osterlund here (http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=167) and more recent follow ups here (http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=498) and here (http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=502)."

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## prakel

> The weather has continued to be cold and wet and the bees seem to have gone on queen-raising strike. Should I give up or try again if the conditions improve? Very disheartening.


Assuming a need for more queens/wish to further tweak your system I reckon it's worth the effort to continue but the final results will as always rest totally with the bees.The one thing we can't do is force them to produce _good_ queens -although there appears to be a growing group who believe that bees always make good queens and they can even spout reference to spurious research that proves the fact; unfortunately, no matter how many times they're asked for a link it's never forthcoming (beyond .... "so and so said it exists"). But that's an entirely different hobby horse which I plan to corral during the winter months. 

...So, if they only want to rear one that might actually be a better investment of your resources than a dozen which haven't received quite the same attention. If drones are still looking good and there's a chance of improved weather then the odds might be with you but the weather's always the biggest gamble we take. I think the main cost of queen rearing is at the mating nuc end of the programme -a failed cell builder costs little compared to a dozen failed nucs.

----------


## Jon

The weather looks better for queen mating from next week.

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## prakel

> The weather looks better for queen mating from next week.


Which also bodes well for our site on an August flowering benweed reserve!

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## Jon

I don't think many will have flown in the past 10-12 days. 19 July was the last decent mating day here.

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## Kate Atchley

> Assuming a need for more queens/wish to further tweak your system I reckon it's worth the effort to continue ... If drones are still looking good and there's a chance of improved weather then the odds might be with you but the weather's always the biggest gamble we take. I think the main cost of queen rearing is at the mating nuc end of the programme -a failed cell builder costs little compared to a dozen failed nucs.


Thanks Prakel. Plenty of handsome drones around and queens in demand so will watch for a drier, warmer spell before bothering the bees again ... I'll let the weather inform whether I try again.

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## Jon

I did 50 grafts on Wednesday into 3 colonies, 20, 20 and 10.
One started 10, another only 5 and the final one had acquired a virgin between Wednesday and today so started no cells.
Conditions are certainly not ideal and it is raining again today.
If a colony starts no cells at all I always assume it has acquired a virgin from somewhere and I go looking for it.
It had no virgin on Wednesday as it had sealed queen cells on a bar which I removed before inserting the new graft.
It will have flown in from one of the apideas on the site.
This happens quite often if you have queenless colonies and apideas on the same site.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Prakel wrote about this last year and uses it successfully. Try Googling <Elgon/Pasaga Ramic method>. It's here in the Forum in "Queen raising 2014" where Prakel gave references on 04.07.2014: 
> 
> "There are blog entries describing the method by Erik Osterlund here (http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=167) and more recent follow ups here (http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=498) and here (http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=502)."


Thanks Kate

There are so many complicated methods around
If you take the queen out of a colony
Graft from the same colony into a cell bar
Leaving the cell bar in the now queenless colony
Won't you get nearly 100% success rate ?
You can put her back later and move the cells above a QX
Just a thought  :Smile:

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## Jon

Yep. just remove a queen and insert a frame of grafts from the same colony or any other and you will get plenty started.
I set up a queenless colony in May and it has started about 20-30 cells per week for me since then. I add a couple of frames of brood per week to stop it developing laying workers.
I also start cells in queenright colonies but they do not start as many.
The biggest problem with queen rearing advice is over complicating matters. If you have a really strong queenless colony it will start loads of cells. You need to keep feeding brood to it to stop laying workers developing and also to keep it loaded with nurse bees.

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## prakel

> If you take the queen out of a colony
> Graft from the same colony into a cell bar
> Leaving the cell bar in the now queenless colony
> Won't you get nearly 100% success rate ?


Do you also remove the thousands of larvae which are all claiming attention from the nurses or just add the bar?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Do you also remove the thousands of larvae which are all claiming attention from the nurses or just add the bar?


I don't know to be honest 
I would be fairly confident that a decent hive could feed  20 queen cells and the rest of the brood
Do you think that's wrong ?

----------


## prakel

I'm sure they could feed them just like they do in any queen-right finisher but I'm wondering whether they'd start the twenty in the presence of the rest of the brood from which they can choose any larvae they like -ones which haven't been manhandled into cell cups. No matter how good the grafter is I can't believe that it's possible for a grafted larvae to be better than another which, being the same in all other respects, hasn't been grafted.

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## The Drone Ranger

You may be right prakel but I made a hive queenless knocked off their cells and started 18 out of 20
Course I bungled it and none hatched but that's just one of those things  :Smile: 

I take your point its probably best to limit the options by removing their queen cells 
I think they like vertical cells in preference to making one vertical from the face of the comb

There are more involved methods
Heres a pic of a video I bought some years back
On VHS tape (shows when that was)IMGP0893.jpg

Total palaver no wonder people didn't try to raise their own queens  :Smile: 

When nurse bees have nothing to nurse they move on to other duties so I will stick my neck out here and say I think its best to have open brood for them to busy themselves with --- probably wrong

Err Jon's your man ask him Lol!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I'm Off Topic again 
Heres todays news
IMGP0892.jpg
Thats wasps drilling their way into my Paynes poly nuc to get the syrup
They have some way to go yet 
No I didn't spill the syrup 
For some reason two of the nucs seem to be  bit porous in the feed slot department
Keeping the blighters busy and they are so easy to squash
Mrs DR helpfully pointed out I should have painted them  :Smile:

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## prakel

DR:

My interest was raised by your comment that this method would be easier than starting the cells in a broodless box and then moving them above an excluder for finishing (Pasaga Ramic). There are other aspects of the suggested method (such as the absolute need to keep a check on all of the combs for rogue cells) which makes me think that it's probably more involved than the sales pitch suggests!




> Err Jon's your man ask him Lol!


Well, all are welcome to chime in when it comes to increasing my understanding of what it is I'm trying to do  :Smile: .

----------


## Jon

Prakel. If you take a queen out of a strong colony and put in a frame with grafts 10 minutes later they usually start a lot of them.
I think the orientation of the cup is the key factor, ie they look like cups from which queen cells will be drawn.
They have hundreds of suitable age larvae of their own and they will start a few from these but they seem to prefer the cups on the graft frame.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Yep. just remove a queen and insert a frame of grafts from the same colony or any other and you will get plenty started..


Jon, I see that you and Drone Ranger regard my method as over-complicated — though it's a minor variant on using a Cloake board — but perhaps I was not clear. I've used exactly the _same method_ for each batch of cells this Summer, with success of around 66% fed/drawn queen cells overall. This latest batch led to only one cell. 

I don't know of an explanation other than weather and colony strength: the early days of these cells' development (or failure) brought more wet days of 11C or 12C as through most of May and June. Though breeding colonies are fed, their brood boxes remain light and empty of retained stores. Amongst the Amm bees we're managing, there are _no "strong" or "decent" colonies_ this year, as I understand the term ... only colonies making a remarkably good job of coping with extraordinarily difficult conditions. 

Perhaps in such conditions breeder colonies need to be run with constant feeders and no supers, and extra pollen and/or substitute (though my bees seem to dislike pollen substitutes). I had some spare pollen but it's been used already. Maybe that approach would lead to better success with the queen raising.

It's certainly been sunnier and milder in the east of Scotland ... perhaps also in Ireland?

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## Jon

Kate, I was not thinking about your methods at all when I mentioned over complicated stuff. I was thinking about some of the stuff I have read over the years in the Bibba magazine. Most of the Irish bee breeders I know are big fans of the Cloake board. I was only responding to DR's post about removing a queen from a colony. There are lots of ways to get queen cells started.
I always share what works for me with others on the forum.

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## nemphlar

DR wasps and polynucs, a tub of petroleum jelly is a good short term fix for stopping the wasps digging holes in soft poly

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## The Drone Ranger

> Jon, I see that you and Drone Ranger regard my method as over-complicated


Steady the Buffs  :Smile: 
Kate I apologise if you think I am casting dispersions on your no doubt well researched method 
I honestly have no Idea what the ragu punic method involves (clearly)

What I will say in my defense is that the first two sets of queens I raised this year were using a cupkit in a Ben Harden queenright system
They both worked fine apart from some disappearances and mating failures at the mininuc stage which reduced the numbers by about 50%

As the season moved forward and Oil Seed Rape disappeared they lost interest in raising queencells in a queen right colony

So now I dequeened two colonies one Smith double broodbox and one paynes nuc double broodbox 
I also set up another double broodbox Smith hive queenright Ben Harden style using a third box on top

Now before dequeening the Poly Nuc the queen was put in a cupkit and it took a day for her to lay (it was overnight the first two times)
Those eggs became larva and went on cell bar in that now queenless double poly nuc got 18 starts from 20

Also using cupkit  larva the queenless Smith hive  had  18 starts  from 20  
Those all made sealed queencells (which I fiddled with too much and lost the lot)
So then I grafted into that hive and it was 7 starts from 10 (unusually high for me) 
That reduced to 5 after a few days

The queen right Ben Harden Smith triple hive not so good
I put 10 cupkit larva in no starts
I grafted into it next no starts 
Tried one more time no starts
So at that point in the season using that hive I was wasting my time

It's probably horses for courses. So early season the queenright method was best and mid season the queenless method was best
It could be weather related or to do with passing the longest day and how the bees feel about that
My post is just part question part suggestion
Added refinements and complications are sometimes just that, and don't always get any better results
Hope the next lot are all 100 success
DR

----------


## mbc

Today I've put out all but 4 of 42 cells from my last grafft of the season, cloak board's put away and cell builders being cleared of supers ready for thymol, one of them was showing a bit of varroa damage. 4 cells that didn't get placed are in the airing cupboard, I must invest in a proper incubator. That's 12 rounds of grafts, two frames of twenty odd cells each time, failures are being got by the wasps now so a good time to start winding it all up.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR wasps and polynucs, a tub of petroleum jelly is a good short term fix for stopping the wasps digging holes in soft poly


Cheers Nemphlar for that solution 
Most welcome answer to an annoying problem

Between flappy top crown boards 
Dodgy bee squashing fat sides
No flippin frame rails
Bee munching and now wasp munching

I'm going right off poly hives

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> 4 cells that didn't get placed are in the _airing cupboard_, I must invest in a proper incubator.


Excellent plan to convince Mrs mbc that an incubator should be on the Xmas list

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR:
> 
> There are other aspects of the suggested method (such as the absolute need to keep a check on all of the combs for rogue cells) which makes me think that it's probably more involved than the sales pitch suggests!
> .


Guilty M'Lud

----------


## prakel

> Prakel. If you take a queen out of a strong colony and put in a frame with grafts 10 minutes later they usually start a lot of them.
> I think the orientation of the cup is the key factor, ie they look like cups from which queen cells will be drawn.
> They have hundreds of suitable age larvae of their own and they will start a few from these but they seem to prefer the cups on the graft frame.


In which case I'm genuinely surprised that more people aren't raising their quality queens with this method.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Steady the Buffs 
> As the season moved forward and Oil Seed Rape disappeared they lost interest in raising queencells in a queen right colony
> 
> So now I dequeened two colonies one Smith double broodbox and one paynes nuc double brood box ...
> 
> The queen right Ben Harden Smith triple hive not so good ... I put 10 cupkit larva in no starts ... I grafted into it next no starts ... Tried one more time no starts
> So at that point in the season using that hive I was wasting my time
> 
> ... So early season the queenright method was best and mid season the queenless method was best
> ...


DR that's _hugely helpful_. Many thanks for sharing your results and showing the changing pattern of cell building in different conditions, through the season. (And a relief to know others too sometimes have no or poor starts!) Reading this, I'm pretty sure that my bees in the queenless cell starter day 1 began to start lots of cells (hence curtain of wax-builders hanging from them) but once the frame was above the Qx with the queen below, they changed behaviour to being stingy and drawing out only one cell. It ties in with your experience.

Rain is forecast for days and days but I'll feed up a colony with a view to creating queenless conditions and will try again when there's a break. So watch this space!

----------


## prakel

> I'll feed up a colony with a view to creating queenless conditions and will try again when there's a break. So watch this space!


Your mini-plus hives probably aren't mature enough yet but just a thought -I've been using very strong double box mp's for cell raising with great success through the summer. True minimization of resources. Don't know how many good cells one of those units could handle as I've not needed to try for more than a dozen (which they handle very well) in one box at a time. Just another 'possible' to either consider or forget  :Smile: .

----------


## Kate Atchley

Interesting you add this Prakel. Plan to overwinter a few queens in double Mp boxes but, as you suggest, they're not strong enough to try this yet. Had also been wondering about fitting a Cupkit box into an mp frame and trying that and the mp cell raising next year, taking the queen and some of youngest brood out with the CK box.

I love grafting (though presumably lose some larvae through clumsiness) but the CK system can be useful and avoids larval damage.

Our colonies here are not large (Amm generally create small colonies and there's no OSR or equivalent here) so trying for 12 cells at a time would be fine. Do you double up the cells vertically in one frame or spread over two frames to go into the mps alongside one another?

----------


## Jon

> In which case I'm genuinely surprised that more people aren't raising their quality queens with this method.


The key thing is colony strength. It has to be boiling over with bees.
Once you get cells started you have the option to move them on to a queenright colony for finishing or leave them where they are if the colony is strong enough to deal with them.

----------


## prakel

> Once you get cells started you have the option to move them on to a queenright colony for finishing or leave them where they are if the colony is strong enough to deal with them.


Although I'm still not really convinced that this is a truly efficient way to start cells I will give it a go at some point.

But whatever route you take, you've got to shake through all of the combs in search of cells whether there are any or not. So I still fail to understand how this is acually easier than a broodless starter or one with only sealed brood as it's been suggested to be.

----------


## prakel

> Do you double up the cells vertically in one frame or spread over two frames to go into the mps alongside one another?


I've been using two bars (not even frames) with a comb between them to avoid any comb building games which they might try in a double space.

----------


## Jon

> Although I'm still not really convinced that this is a truly efficient way to start cells I will give it a go.
> 
> But at some point, whatever route you take, you've got to shake through all of the combs in search of cells


You have to do that with a queenright system as well as the combs are constantly being circulated from the bottom box to the box above the excluder.
It is a PITA and if you miss a cell and a virgin emerges you lose a frame of cells. A couple of years ago at the association apiary I missed a cell on a comb and the cell starter swarmed with the virgin! I had to climb up a thorn tree to get it back.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Although I'm still not really convinced that this is a truly efficient way to start cells I will give it a go at some point.
> 
> But whatever route you take, you've got to shake through all of the combs in search of cells whether there are any or not. So I still fail to understand how this is acually easier than a broodless starter or one with only sealed brood as it's been suggested to be.


Hi prakel 
My VHS tape recorder gave up the ghost so I can't watch the old tape again
That's going to bug me now and I'm afraid it's all your fault LOL!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Interesting you add this Prakel. Plan to overwinter a few queens in double Mp boxes but, as you suggest, they're not strong enough to try this yet. Had also been wondering about fitting a Cupkit box into an mp frame and trying that and the mp cell raising next year, taking the queen and some of youngest brood out with the CK box.


My tip is fit the cupkit to the frame and just surround it with foundation
If conditions are right they will draw that wax out
Well that works for me Kate

Cutting drawn frames and putting it in one is a pain
It's alien comb to them anyway and they start filling it with nectar
That's extra mess

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I've been using two bars (not even frames) with a comb between them to avoid any comb building games which they might try in a double space.


Gotcha! Is it raining everywhere? Lots of us online!

----------


## prakel

> You have to do that with a queenright system as well as the combs are constantly being circulated from the bottom box to the box above the excluder.
> It is a PITA and if you miss a cell


That's my point, it entails work even though it's being presented as an alternative to the




> many complicated methods around


Personally I can't see how it's less complicated than a broodless starter.

----------


## prakel

> Hi prakel 
> My VHS tape recorder gave up the ghost so I can't watch the old tape again
> That's going to bug me now and *I'm afraid it's all your fault LOL!*


So many things have been! There are people with the ability to transfer commercial vhs onto disk. But I'm doubtful about the legalities of the beast.

----------


## prakel

> Is it raining everywhere? Lots of us online!


Brilliant sunshine and nectar going into the boxes at last. If only the rain had come sooner.

----------


## Jon

> Personally I can't see how it's less complicated than a broodless starter.


I don't think there is any method which does not involve a fair bit of work and some care about when cells are likely to emerge.
With my queenless starter which I feed brood to every week  I have run it for three months and put through 2 batches of cells per week on average since mid May.
You have to take frames out and put frames in but that's no big deal. I often put in the frame I have just grafted from. The open brood pheromone helps prevent the development of laying workers.
This also avoids having to open the graft donor colony twice as you do not have to open a second time to replace the frame when you have finished grafting.

The most labour intensive part of the work is checking the apideas and all this entails and also marking, clipping and caging queens for posting plus all the e-mail communication with the people they are posted to.
Grafting and getting cells started is a critical part of the work but fortunately does not have to take up a massive percentage of the time involved to get the finished product.

With a broodless starter do you start a fresh one every couple of weeks or what way do you work it?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Brilliant sunshine and nectar going into the boxes at last. If only the rain had come sooner.


I was happy this morning to see sun and did a few inspections
My attempt to get the laying workers in a keiler to adopt a larva have failed
The geniuses are now raising a queen cell on drone larva instead
Weather has all changed now  --- heavy rain 
Fiddlestix

I am no expert as you know, but sometimes the straightforward approach is enough
Take grafting, most people just find a suitable frame
Some more dedicated, recommend frame trapping the queen to ensure the whole frame is at the right stage
In a big commercial operation they do all this stuff but on a small scale its not essential
Just saying  :Smile:  

Ps.
 I remembered an article on how to make a ringing table for microscope slides
The main component was a head from a Video Recorder
All is not lost after all  :Smile:

----------


## prakel

> With a broodless starter do you start a fresh one every couple of weeks or what way do you work it?


I personally rotate around different hives so they have one 'go' and then they can get back to normal life. There's no need with this method to have a dedicated unit. It suits me to use different colonies which are often (but not always) in totally different locations. At present this is proving an ideal way for me to manage things.

The point which I feel is getting lost here is that I personally have no major hang-ups about how to do things -I'm more than happy to change anything if it improves results or adds some other benefit so when someone suggests a method which I've never contemplated and he's backed up by a commercial queen breeder then of course questions will spring to mind. I trialled the method that I'm currently using for the first time last year and have used it almost exclusively this year. I say 'almost' because I've also played around with another method too but to a much lesser extent. So there's no question about my flexibility.

----------


## Jon

I agree prakel. If it works, it works, and the variations on the methodology are not the most important thing.
Since I scaled up a bit I am looking for ways to save time and cut out any bits of the routine which are not mission critical.
If you are working on your own there is a limit to how much you can produce and it focuses the mind re. which method is more time consuming than any other.
I could do grafts in a day to produce cells for many more apideas than I can manage on my own.
The bottlenecks lie elsewhere.

----------


## HJBee

Thought I would share a picture from our Apiary visit today, which in true Ian Craig style was interesting and spontaneous. Even in the changeable weather the bees were in quite good form. Lots to see and learn.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Never seen bees trying to kill a swinging cat before. Splendid shot!

----------


## gavin

I think I've been in that apiary - but it was winter (winter talk time) and Ian didn't quite have the magic then to command the bees to assemble in the tree above.

----------


## HJBee

They all congregated there as the various entrances in Ian's double decker stacking system were blocked by us Beeks. One swift smack with a brolly and they dispersed and 5 mins after hardly any left hanging in the air!

----------


## fatshark

First day of Scottish beekeeping ... wheelbarrowed a couple of dozen unused supers to the storage barn in the rain.

Is this typical?

----------


## gavin

Absolutely.  A barn far away will do, you may need them in 2017.

With both you *and* H-J on this thread it is best not to mention wheelbarrows.  I have a recollection now of a certain cartoon character you were discussing and it isn't a pretty picture.

----------


## gavin

> ....  were blocked by U.S. Beeks.


That man is quite some draw.

----------


## Jon

I think we all remember Buster Gonad

----------


## gavin

> I think we all remember Buster Gonad


I'm just away to tinker with the settings to stop anyone posting images for a while ........

----------


## Jon

scarred for life...

----------


## HJBee



----------


## prakel

Looks like a lot of spam coming this way, based on the legion of 'people' currently registering accounts.....

----------


## gavin

Thanks R.  Grrrrr .... about an hour of tidying up ahead of me.  About one hundred new accounts to delete, one by one.  I have appropriate barriers up now though and will strengthen some others before I'm done.  Thanks for the warning.

----------


## Feckless Drone

> First day of Scottish beekeeping ... wheelbarrowed a couple of dozen unused supers to the storage barn in the rain.
> 
> Is this typical?


The new Ivor Cutler has arrived! 

Pleased to see that Qs have picked up this last week in Tayside. Forgotten what it was like to see a full frame of brood or feel some weight in a super. Lime and willowherb now yielding well in Dundee. A check showed all but one colony with enough stores. The exception, that was on the brink of starvation, was a colony moved within an apiary and having lost most of the flying bees was struggling. My bad - I should have given more stores when I moved them.

----------


## Jon

Fatshark has a new life to look forward to.

----------


## busybeephilip

We got a good July http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33757981

Thats why I've no honey!

----------


## gwizzie

Weather here this morning was terrible but about 11am the clouds parted and the sun has been out ever since. The swarm hive in my back garden has been working like a trojan today and they're still at it, these bees seem different from my other ones as they seem harder workers ? if this keep up they will be going to the heather with my other hive!

just checked the temp in back garden and its 22deg now

----------


## HJBee

Today I've been snooping on my Ayrshire Neighbours

Love their Display, responsible for me being a beekeeper!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

HJBee is there a mesh on the front of that shed thing ?
I doubt if the nylon rope would keep many bees in  :Smile:

----------


## HJBee

and I'm stood in front of the live honey bees, keep out sign. 

Yes there is fine Mesh, they bring them in 2-3 days before the show opens and the bees learn to fly high, over all the show goers heads before opening. They had plenty of Lime trees to forage on. This set up is great as the suit & boot anyone who is interested and get them in and handling the frames.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I must get some of that mesh on my visor 
Don't be surprised to find a bit snipped out
This morning was spent getting the grey fergie tractor out of a mud hole where it dug itself in
What a carry on  :Smile: 




I never saw a need for a butterfly net but I've just spent ages chasing a Red Admiral round the house before I finally got him out
I'm off to Amazon to get a net
vis.jpg

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Looks like a lot of spam coming this way.


Yum!

----------


## Black Comb

> I must get some of that mesh on my visor 
> Don't be surprised to find a bit snipped out
> This morning was spent getting the grey fergie tractor out of a mud hole where it dug itself in
> What a carry on 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never saw a need for a butterfly net but I've just spent ages chasing a Red Admiral round the house before I finally got him out
> ...


Grey Fergie. That takes me back a while. Is it TVO?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Black Comb its a diesel so easier to operate 
1952 they new how to build them in those days

----------


## prakel

> Yum!


No chance, the Boss intercepted it!

----------


## gavin

There's nothing like a video of some mud to get you set up for the day.  

Snuck a couple of hives up to Glen Isla last night.  Always fun moving bees in the dark.  The ling heather is later than I've ever known - there wasn't a single flower out yet in the areas illuminated by my head torch.  Pink buds are showing but it could be a week before it is flowering well.  Large areas of dead heather stems to the south but immediately around the apiary site it looks fine.

Locally the lime is still in flower here and there (ditto on the lateness).  Will try to recover the harvest today.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> No chance, the Boss intercepted it!


Drat !!
He doesn't need it with all that honey coming in
Is bread and dripping with promises of jam tomorrow here

----------


## busybeephilip

> Black Comb its a diesel so easier to operate 
> 1952 they new how to build them in those days


Problem with Fergies is they are very low horse power eg 20 or 35,  but good in their day !  That looks like it could be a nice tractor restoration project, you can still get all the parts

----------


## The Drone Ranger

That's true but I only use the tractor for topping mowing the grass and a bit of ploughing and rotavating for potato planting with a small ridger
The biggest bugbear is the PTO doesn't have a separate clutch

----------


## busybeephilip

DR - over run clutch adapter

----------


## busybeephilip

Just looking at some bees yesterday, hive weights still falling slowly

----------


## Jon

You taken any supers off yet Phil?
The only ones I have removed so far are from the new apiary I set up in Tyrone.
I should have about 200lbs from 6 colonies which is ok as those were started from 6 frame nucs in April.
the Belfast apiaries have produced very little.
I'll have a few supers from 4 colonies I have at the bottom of the garden.
The suburban forage is more reliable.
The mating apiaries will not produce a huge amount as the colonies are set up to make drones.
Spent this morning removing queens from Apideas. Hateful work in the rain and bad light.

----------


## busybeephilip

Hey Jon,

Was planning to do just that but other things have got in the way, hard to estimate yield just at present but its well down on last years anyway need to make sure I get a big supply of syrup ready to feed after taking supers off.  Most of the hives are still very strong as my swarm control without increase worked really well this year so plenty of bees eating the crop as I type!  There was clear differences between my old bees and the new ones in swarming behaviour which I'll get your opinion on this evening  :Smile:  

Hard to predict best forage, my out apiary is surrounded by grazing land, plenty of clover (now done) and still a bit of blackberry left and loads ragwort courtesy of ards council saving money by not cutting the verges.  I would have imagined that you and alan R would have got a good crop at the NT site, its odd how a few miles can make a difference maybe its height above sea level ?

Are you api-gaurding yet ?  I made a OA evaporator out of an aluminium block,  standard type of design but I'm going to make a sublimox type design so that you dont have to switch on and off and wait for the thing to cool down, all the pro's in EU use them now but very expensive to buy, only a few £ to make one.

Queen rearing was a bit of a failure, too many drone layers being produced, was talking to someone else over the weekend from Dromore who is into this and he found the same thing, most likely weather related, I'm wondering if I should try one last batch of grafting in the hope of a good september (indian summer  huh..),  but at the moment everything is winding down and getting plagued by wasps robbing

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR - over run clutch adapter


Hi Phill
Yes I have one on the topping mower and an adjustable friction slipper plate PTO shaft for the rotavator
The ability to lift depends on the PTO being turning which is a pain either disconnecting the power shaft first or driving into a shed with a still rotating mower or rotavator
If you manage to stall with a thing like the rotavator on the back it can be a real a real pain getting the shaft off the PTO (so you can lift without the rotavator turning)
Bit impractical on some levels but I have had it 10 years so learned just to put up with it
Later tractors you can stop the PTO and still lift the implement that must be great (and safer)
What am I saying ?? I'll never sell it now!! Shot myself in the foot  :Smile:

----------


## gavin

Just keeking earlier at the rainfall for Scotland in July.  Bear in mind this is % deviation from normal.  The west is wetter anyway.

----------


## gavin

The Moving Hives posts are now in a thread of their own:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...7-Moving-hives

----------


## fatshark

> Just keeking earlier at the rainfall for Scotland in July.  Bear in mind this is % deviation from normal.  The west is wetter anyway.


Ah Ha ... that would explain why when moving bees from one of those white bits in the middle  to one of those dark blue bits in the top right I was feeding fondant within 10 days ...

... but in fairness, they're piling something or other in now to the strong hives.

----------


## gavin

> Ah Ha ... that would explain why when moving bees from one of those white bits in the middle  to one of those dark blue bits in the top right I was feeding fondant within 10 days ...
> 
> ... but in fairness, they're piling something or other in now to the strong hives.


Courtesy of DR's delightful taxonomy it could be from White Stuff, Pink Stuff or Blue Stuff.  Maybe, at a pinch, Green Stuff or even Yellow Stuff.

----------


## Jon

Yes it was useful to have DR kick that outdated Kirk's guide to pollen loads into touch with a more comprehensive review.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Your welcome I'm sure  :Smile: 

I have run out of available min nuc queens due to replacing drone layers and disappearing queens 
There are a few keilers with virgins in the pipeline 
I was queen marking at a friends apiary yesterday who has 5 hives and 2 were drone layers 
One queen was replaced by a laying one which I had spare 
The other was swarm where the queen was a drone layer messing up all the combs
That one was just shook out in front of another hive close by
It wasn't big to start with and had dwindled too much 

Funny season this year for queen mating and disappearing virgins

----------


## HJBee

Been a year for disappearing newly mated & laying queens too from what I hear. I lost 1 Virgin queen, but can't complain as doubled the stock. Poor honey harvest though, just enough to pay the rent and a few boxes of cut comb to offset recent bee related purchases.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

As long as you can break even hjbee you will be doing better than most 🍯

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

----------


## lindsay s

Three out of four new queens have started laying this week Ill give the other a week to ten days before I consider uniting. The supers will be coming off next weekend and the honey crop from my main apiary will be very poor this year but the two hives at my other site are still piling it in.
The Kirkwall Flower Arrangement Club had a display in the St Magnus Cathedral this week. Heres a photo of The Honey-Bee Swarm. It was created by my beekeeping friend Sue so I thought I would share all her lovely work with you. :Smile: 
Flower Swarm 2015.jpg

----------


## The Drone Ranger

How brilliant is that Well done to Sue !!

----------


## EK.Bee

Deep joy, the daughters of Satan are no more! 
The second attempt at introducing a placid Queen has succeeded! 
A seemingly small thing, but for me, a major triumph 
The whole Apiary was back to a pleasure to work in
Doing the Munchkin dance  :Big Grin:  Ding Dong!

----------


## Kate Atchley

What a relief! At last the bees have been taking in loads of pollen and nectar and brood frames have arches of honey and colourful pollens. They've been making the best of some better weather and the late flow. Have decided to graft another couple of batches of larvae for late queens. Dusted off the Cloake board for these.

----------


## EK.Bee

Anyone else suffered from Absconding MAQS?
left half a box of MAQS strips in the chest freezer to safely over winter
Went to defrost them ---------- Gone
*Nobody* touched them
I note however a preponderance of black currents in the chest freezer
As it is unlikely that blackcurrents will induce a heavy mite drop or banish slugs I am at a loss  :Frown: 
My Nosemic bee collection is similarly missing. Grounds for divorce due to unreasonable behaviour?
I fear for my unwashed sticky feeder tower in the downstairs shower!

----------


## gavin

Weird stuff that MAQS.  I wouldn't trust it.

I stick to Apiguard, ApilifeVar and Apivar and packs of oxalic acid crystals.  They're much better behaved.  OK, they jump around from box to box and even shed to car to store but I can usually track them down eventually.  Much better behaved miticides.

----------


## mbc

I had a whole kochstar wax melter run away from the kitchen while my back was turned, and bee samples always seem to evaporate from the freezer.

----------


## Feckless Drone

I took some advice from C4U given at an association meeting awhile back and been watching how Gavin sets up for the heather. So, I united colonies for typical summer blossom and got a lovely honey due to mainly lime flow in late July. I tested out a site for heather and thought it might be a bit exposed - but the heather and weather came good later on - end result a good yield (by my standards), lots of comb to cut and sections. but, just when you think you are making progress with this craft something happens. The downs - removing a super from a serious box of bees, which was stuck to 4 brood combs. The whole lot comes out and brood combs knocked off as I move to the side. Mayhem and wheres the Q? Three days later - eggs (but could have been laid just before my act of vandalism), but no Q-cell started so maybe hope. Weekend job to find her or not.

----------


## gavin

That section is so light it seems to be floating to the ceiling  :Smile: .

Seriously though, getting sections filled in 2015 is no mean feat.  Could well be the only sections filled in Tayside in years.

----------


## Calluna4u

> I took some advice from C4U given at an association meeting awhile back and been watching how Gavin sets up for the heather. So, I united colonies for typical summer blossom and got a lovely honey due to mainly lime flow in late July. I tested out a site for heather and thought it might be a bit exposed - but the heather and weather came good later on - end result a good yield (by my standards), lots of comb to cut and sections. but, just when you think you are making progress with this craft something happens. The downs - removing a super from a serious box of bees, which was stuck to 4 brood combs. The whole lot comes out and brood combs knocked off as I move to the side. Mayhem and wheres the Q? Three days later - eggs (but could have been laid just before my act of vandalism), but no Q-cell started so maybe hope. Weekend job to find her or not.


In best Father Jack tradition, I would make a small wager the Drone was far from 'Feck'less after that! Things do happen to all of us that are liable to 'bring forth intemperate language'.

----------


## gavin

> Things do happen to all of us that are liable to 'bring forth intemperate language'.


Absolutely!  Like season 2015 ....

----------


## mbc

Lol.

----------


## fatshark

No beekeeping whatsoever today but I saw a hell of a lot of bees ... I had a half day of late season trout fishing on the River Eden in Fife. The banks are thick with balsam in places, though it's clearly coming to an end. Those flowers remaining were being worked hard by thousands of bees. Some were nearly completely white they were so covered with pollen. A lovely sight.

----------


## Greengage

Spent a bit of time searching for this little chap but no luck so far....
http://www.biodiversityireland.ie/ca...irish-ivy-bee/

----------


## fatshark

It's got a way to go yet ... http://www.bwars.com/index.php?q=con...s-hederae-2015 ... but it got that far in 14 years so shouldn't be too long.

----------


## Greengage

Since this is scottish forum this might interest you http://www.bwars.com/index.php?q=con...uide-published

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## Calluna4u

You see something new every year................
Never ever in my time. or my fathers, have we seen a flow in October. We are not talking ivy, much loved by some beekeepers in the south. It is balsam. Was out feeding hives today that had come home from the heather and were due to get their full winter feed, as usual at this time we have several frames of foundation inserted in the nest to be drawn on the feed. These bees had been home only three days.

To my surprise the middle frames of foundation were drawn or in the process of being drawn. 'Ghost bees' everywhere. Pulled out some centre bars to see what was going on and the nectar fell out like water. Some of the foundation was nearly fully drawn, already had the start of a pollen arc and had eggs in the centre. a truly exceptional week for early October, and one we might not see again for a long long time.

To the botanists in our midst....What is the very rich red pollen that they are bringing in in quite large amounts at the same time as they are working balsam? No idea myself.

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## gavin

I'll admit to being a botanist and I also saw red pollen this afternoon.  I'm not sure what it is but Scabious may be a possibility.

Maybe Jolanta will get her microscope out if you ask nicely!

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## Bridget

Here at the southern end of the Spey the heather is still in bloom, patches of it still quite strong and the bees are still working hard bringing in pollen as well, mainly yellow not red.  As they are still going strong and with the good weather our  nucs had well outgrown their box and had to be transferred into a brood box, all be it with a large dummy board at one end.  As we still have supers to come off the main hives we have not started with winter feed or varroa treatment yet.  
This year is the first time we have had double brood boxes and supers.  We reduced them to one brood box and one super 10 days ago but they look, too full to go down to just a brood box when we take the supers off next week.  I know they will reduce in numbers soon but maybe not enough. I'm not sure if I shouldn't put the second brood box back  or maybe go brood and a half.  Any advice?  People say brood and a half is a pain but with our winter here I would wonder if two brood boxes is too much.
These are the bad tempered hives I worried about in July.  Despite advice to do away with the queens and set them up with the queens raised with Drumgerrys gentle bees we decided that they were doing too well to be killed off and decided to give them another winter and do away with them in the spring.  Meantime I became allergic, my husband took over, they have been very kind to him and we have had about 100 lbs of honey so far with more to come off!  Not sure what the moral of that story is but there must be one somewhere!


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## alancooper

> saw red pollen this afternoon


I have been looking at pollen loads from my hives for a couple of years to get some idea of what by bees are using throughout the year. For comparison I have collected directly from the main plant species in the local flora.
I have never seen red pollen at this time of year (we do not have Field scabious in Fermanagh) but I do know that you can get strange colours from mixed loads brought in by the bees. Rose-bay willowherb (fire-weed) has purple pollen and is still being brought in here - if was mixed with a light-grey coloured pollen could it give a reddish hue? Another possibility is a garden plant.

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## Calluna4u

> I have been looking at pollen loads from my hives for a couple of years to get some idea of what by bees are using throughout the year. For comparison I have collected directly from the main plant species in the local flora.
> I have never seen red pollen at this time of year (we do not have Field scabious in Fermanagh) but I do know that you can get strange colours from mixed loads brought in by the bees. Rose-bay willowherb (fire-weed) has purple pollen and is still being brought in here - if was mixed with a light-grey coloured pollen could it give a reddish hue? Another possibility is a garden plant.


Not a garden plant for sure, it has been coming in in several locations, indeed ALL the lowland locations. Willowherb here is finished, and here the pollen from it is a dull blue colour. Not been getting any of that for some time. Scabious is a common plant around here, but it is also largely finished, and in any case not enough of it for hundreds of pollen loads daily into each of up to 84 nucs on a site. Its has noticeably sharply tailed off and today I have not seen any of the red stuff. It was a deep rich red, not dissimilar to the pollen load on the scabious bee illustrated by Gavin, and the loads were totally uniform in shade. If it IS scabious I am amazed at the amount they were getting. Must be a lot more of it about than I thought. Gavin: lol...Jolanta is being kept very busy with serious work, and has not been given time by her cruel boss to go messing around with microscopes!

Was feeding some of the mature colonies at a place near Glamis this morning and the distinctive phacelia pollen greatly in evidence. Saw the farmer on the way out and he was very proud of his phacelia field, part of which he had mown, and it all came up again and maybe a quarter of the filed in flower again now. Did not have the heart to tell him there had been no bees there for the main flowering as they were all away at the heather wasting their time. Still nectar coming in today. Will try to upload a picture later of what the bees had done to the foundation.

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## Calluna4u

> Here at the southern end of the Spey the heather is still in bloom, patches of it still quite strong and the bees are still working hard bringing in pollen as well, mainly yellow not red.


Nice to hear. Our bees at Ralia and further down near Ruthven Barracks are also bringing yellow pollen. I thought it late for tormentil but sure, there is still some around, also ragwort in abundance, plus hawkweed(?) in most places. The cream/off white coloured heather pollen also still coming in plentifully. Some parts at Rothiemurchus the heather is still very vibrant and not far past peak flower.

As for your bees in July being 'a bit nippy'..... this was commonplace this year as they conditions were so much against them and all the nectar sources were running terribly late. No doubt a flow sorted that little problem out.

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## Bridget

> Nice to hear. Our bees at Ralia and further down near Ruthven Barracks are also bringing yellow pollen. I thought it late for tormentil but sure, there is still some around, also ragwort in abundance, plus hawkweed(?) in most places. The cream/off white coloured heather pollen also still coming in plentifully. Some parts at Rothiemurchus the heather is still very vibrant and not far past peak flower.


Are they your bees on the moor before the Tromie Bridge? That's about a mile from us as the crow flys.  
I planted some free meadow seeds early in the summer and some of those have been flowering like mad for about 6 weeks and that's where the yellow pollen is coming from. I must look up tormentil and hawkweed. There are still lots of little flowers around like little cornflowers and some small white forest flowers.  although this area is late to get started in spring, once it does there is masses with the Insh marshes, clovers etc and the trees.  I don't seem to get a gap in forage at all.
I want to move on and get the supers off but if the heather is still so in flower next weekend I might have to delay. I wondered if the lack of rain might now be hindering the nectar flow from the heather blossom?



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## Calluna4u

> Are they your bees on the moor before the Tromie Bridge? That's about a mile from us as the crow flys.  
> I planted some free meadow seeds early in the summer and some of those have been flowering like mad for about 6 weeks and that's where the yellow pollen is coming from. I must look up tormentil and hawkweed. There are still lots of little flowers around like little cornflowers and some small white forest flowers.  although this area is late to get started in spring, once it does there is masses with the Insh marshes, clovers etc and the trees.  I don't seem to get a gap in forage at all.
> I want to move on and get the supers off but if the heather is still so in flower next weekend I might have to delay. I wondered if the lack of rain might now be hindering the nectar flow from the heather blossom?
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes indeed. We have a smallish group there every year, and there is a bigger group about half a mile from there up in the forest. 

For the last two weeks at least the bees have only been 'filling in down' due to lack of bee power remaining.

Those bees have done ok (ish) this year, but further back down the A9 nearer to Dalwhinnie, the heather was even later, and the bees had nothing much at all when I last looked at them a couple of weeks back, and I do not expect to see any change in that. This has been a weird year.

I appreciate that there is a lot of minor flora up there and at low densities colonies can self maintain in the gap times, but this year the weather was so dire, and the heather so late, that the bees that went up for the bell heather got nil for 7 weeks, which plays havoc with their welfare.

The nectar coming in today I referred to is balsam on the low ground. I will ask my team who are working up near Braemar today if there is any nectar, but they will be working up the A9 from some time later on this coming week.

ps...It is not too dry....but sun elevation allied to cold mornings and short day length mean a lot less heather nectar will be available than three or four weeks back. NEVER seen any significant nectar from heather this late.

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## Emma

Mine have been bringing in mid-blue pollen for the last week or two. Lots of it, big round loads, don't think I've ever seen it before. After a brief google, I think there must be a field of phacelia nearby - is anyone else getting that just now?

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## gavin

> After a brief google, I think there must be a field of phacelia nearby - is anyone else getting that just now?


C4U's bees near Glamis have been - see the post above.  It has been such a dismal summer that lots of plants have been flowering later than normal, or maybe a farmer cut his Phacelia and the regrowth is flowering as in the example above.

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## Calluna4u

> Mine have been bringing in mid-blue pollen for the last week or two. Lots of it, big round loads, don't think I've ever seen it before. After a brief google, I think there must be a field of phacelia nearby - is anyone else getting that just now?


Sounds like some late willowherb to me, or perhaps a minor pollen source of local significance. Phacelia is more a purple, depending on how the light strikes it it can look vivid dark purple to almost a slate purple, close to black. Once you see it in the combs you never forget it or mistake it for anything else of any importance.

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## fatshark

United two colonies last weekend. One super-strong, queenright and hunky dory, one with a failed queen. She was present but far from correct, with no sign of eggs, larvae or brood. She was removed and I did a standard uniting over newspaper. This Saturday I checked them. About 80% of the newspaper had gone and pollen was being taken in. The Q was in the bottom box and laying well. The bees in the top box had raised a single fat queen cell they were in the process of capping. The weather had been stunning all week, but we're expecting rain and low temps from tomorrow.

Firstly, there's not a drone to be seen in this colony and far too late to expect the Q to get mated. Secondly, they must have 'pinched' an egg from the bottom box within a day or so after uniting (no sign of laying workers and the Q hasn't ventured upstairs).

I ripped the cell down. I assume that they'd have done the same thing if the weather turned, but didn't want to risk it. What were they thinking?

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## greengumbo

Hives back from heather on Sunday - 3 hives and 4 supers of ling in total. 

What next ! I cant extract it for a wee while so pondering whether to remove to a warm room and store or to leave it on the hives until I need it. Only downside I would like to get feeding these hives ASAP now the weather is about to change.

I think removal but any advice ?

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## fatshark

No experience here with heather honey greengumbo ... however, I regularly remove supers and keep them warm before extracting. Works a treat. This year they were stacked on my warming cabinet for nearly a fortnight.

What d'you mean _"about to change"_ ... it's horrible and wet here already. I fear the himalayan balsam party is over  :Frown:

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## Calluna4u

> Will try to upload a picture later of what the bees had done to the foundation.


Attachment 2439

Langstroth comb built from foundation last week....picture taken 2nd October.......You can see the open patch in the centre, that is full of eggs. This was a sheet of foundation when last seen about 20th September.

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## Emma

> Sounds like some late willowherb to me, or perhaps a minor pollen source of local significance. Phacelia is more a purple, depending on how the light strikes it it can look vivid dark purple to almost a slate purple, close to black. Once you see it in the combs you never forget it or mistake it for anything else of any importance.


Definitely not as dark as that.
There's a deep bluey turquoise pollen with a distinctive hint of glitter to it that I see every year. I've always thought that that was willowherb. Willowherb used to be a major late nectar source around my Aberdeenshire out apiary - one of the few things flowering in the agri-desert, and I saw a lot of loads of that pollen there.
Of course I could be wrong! Either way, this blue stuff is very different, and I've not seen it before. Doesn't sound at all like phacelia, from your description. Another beekeeping mystery :-)

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## Calluna4u

Attachment 2440Attachment 2441

To illustrate the practice (that surprises some as it is against all the text books) of September/October comb replacement.

This colony was left with 5 old combs and 6 of foundation when it came off the moors last week. It was one of 84 in the wintering site, and most are the similar (maybe 25% are smaller) having 4 to 7 of foundation added. They were fed on 30th September at which time they were sitting with the foundation more or less untouched and the cluster looking ok and on about 7 bars (you get a lot of bees in a small space on foundation). This picture was taken on 4th October.

You can see the bees are now right across the box, and the single frame shown was the extreme right one as you look at the hive, so against the side wall. Note that there is zero drone comb drawn. All 6 of foundation are fully drawn, all perfect. As you can see it works a treat. The feed is 10 litres of invert syrup and is enough to see them through to spring.

Still got about 10 days of a window yet in the wooden hives for this job, but most of the rest of the month in poly.

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## Calluna4u

> Definitely not as dark as that.
> There's a deep bluey turquoise pollen with a distinctive hint of glitter to it that I see every year. I've always thought that that was willowherb. Willowherb used to be a major late nectar source around my Aberdeenshire out apiary - one of the few things flowering in the agri-desert, and I saw a lot of loads of that pollen there.
> Of course I could be wrong! Either way, this blue stuff is very different, and I've not seen it before. Doesn't sound at all like phacelia, from your description. Another beekeeping mystery :-)


Love the 'hint of glitter' image, but apart from that you are spot on with the deep turquoise description. Sounds like another ID job for Gavin.

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## gavin

> Langstroth comb built from foundation last week....picture taken 2nd October.......You can see the open patch in the centre, that is full of eggs. This was a sheet of foundation when last seen about 20th September.


That comb has amber nectar/honey.  Doesn't look like balsam - could it be Japanese knotweed?  Or is it heather getting mixed in?

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## gavin

> Love the 'hint of glitter' image, but apart from that you are spot on with the deep turquoise description. Sounds like another ID job for Gavin.



Yup, rosebay willowherb has that coarse surface that comes from having gigantic pollen grains.  

Emma's blue pollen.  I'm sure that I've posted this cracking picture before - Phacelia pollen showing the vivid Royal blue colour.   From this blog:
http://trogtrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2...or-forage.html

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## gavin

Recently back from tonight's East of Scotland Beekeepers meeting (OK, I've been doing a tax return for an hour and a half) where Magnus entertained us with tales from the CSI Pollen project.  Tony, one of our beginners, brought in a sample of some honey he's just harvested.  He obtained one of these cracking ESBA 5-frame nuclei in late July, put it in a Swienty National, fed it as instructed, and once it had filled its box put on a super.  The super is now stuffed with bees and pretty much full of capped honey.  

It isn't heather, it isn't Himalayan balsam.  Could it be Japanese knotweed?  A mid amber colour, pleasant taste, maybe a bit nutty or with a hint of molasses, rather thick consistency but not jelly-like.  The bees were flying down the hill towards the edge of the estuary and had no particular pollen patterns.

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## Calluna4u

Might be just an artifact of the photo. I do not recall it being amber. More a straw colour. Only Japanese knotweed honey I have seen was a very deep colour, similar to classic bell heather, though maybe a bit redder.

Ditto your phacelia shot.....it is more blue and less purple than any I have seen, though it is very variable depending a lot on how the light strikes it.


Correction to the above...day after posting this message. The problem in not the phacelia photo, it is the colour settings on my laptop. Today on my office desktop the colours are just fine, very typical phacelia photo.

As regards the other photo having amber honey? Well I have decided after a further check and seeing the surprising area of young brood in the hive, that it was caused by them opening up the centre combs of stores they were left with and moving honey around, hence it will be a balsam/syrup/ling mixture you are seeing in the picture.

Gavin....your last post about the mid amber honey? We were getting a small yet noticeable flow of honeydew at Star Inn and Mains of Gray before the bees went off to the heather, and sounds a bit like your sample described. Some was treacly in taste, other hives it was more a butterscotch taste. So tasty in fact my staff were bringing combs back to base.........grrrr. lol. There was even more of it in the Hereford area.

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## Emma

> Yup, rosebay willowherb has that coarse surface that comes from having gigantic pollen grains.  
> 
> Emma's blue pollen.  I'm sure that I've posted this cracking picture before - Phacelia pollen showing the vivid Royal blue colour.   From this blog:
> http://trogtrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2...or-forage.html


Royal blue. Yes, that's the phrase I was hunting for. And the photo looks like what I was seeing on the varroa boards...

...until it had lain in the rain for a while, by which time it had turned darker and more purple. So now I'm pretty confident it's phacelia, from both descriptions. Thanks!

Academic question at the moment, of course. Rain over Fife, bees staying indoors, woodwork soaked :-(

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## gavin

They'll be back out today though!  My experiences yesterday in Fife are recounted below  :Smile: .  Thanks C4U, I hadn't considered honeydew as the stuff I have seen has been darker.  OK, I'll ask Tony for a sample and I *will* get the microscope out some time over winter to see if that helps.  Glad to have the colour issue explained though.

Yesterday was the day to reclaim the last of the hives at the heather.  An early start, then a tour round to drop them back at the three sites they came from.  A soaking wet, slippy, greasy autumn day and with a challenging schedule to get to Ayr in time to give a talk at the beekeeping association there.  Thankfully I had a retired engineer with me, a man who knows a thing or two about getting vehicles out of tricky situations.  At site two there was a relatively simple manoevre to drive forward then reverse into a lane behind a walled garden.  Hmmn, it was squelchy and I was losing grip.  OK, reverse, reverse!




Let's try to crash on through the verge to get back up this lane.  Bad move.  There was a brick-lined hole in the grass I hadn't noticed before and the back offside wheel dropped down into it leaving the van resting on the chassis with no chance of any traction at all.  Bugger!  Still, Jeff knows how to sort things.  We commandeered (thanks Alan) a mini-tractor and driver but it couldn't lift the back of Vera the Van (blame my nieces for the name) on its own.  However Jeff isn't a man to be defeated easily and constructed a lever using a piece of timber borrowed from builders nearby and a pile of bricks.  One lever up, I slipped a brick under the wheel, down went the lever and a brick went on the pivot point.  Another lever and another brick under the wheel.  Off with the lever and another brick on the pivot point.  Magic!  Before long I was able to drive out of the hole whilst Alan used the mini-tractor to give me the necessary helping push.  I don't think the Ayr beekeepers knew how close they were to losing the evening's entertainment.

Will I do it again?  Probably!  I have a habit of repeating my mistakes.

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## Greengage

Talking of diferent colours I came across this article,  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/ny...city.html?_r=2

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## Adam

I have a rope in the back of my car so I can pull my (19 year old) son's car out of a field (again) when I need to. I've taught him how to tie a bowline - he says that it's something that he should have been taught at school for such an eventuality! Practical education for a teenage boy. Logarithums and Archimedes Principle don't work when your car is stuck.

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## SDM

> Logarithums and Archimedes Principle don't work when your car is stuck.


If he'd applied them he might have known that the field was too soft to support his car.

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## gavin

> Logarithums and Archimedes Principle don't work when your car is stuck.


Archimedes worked for me!  Although Archimedes wouldn't have invented it, can't see Stonehenge being erected without levers.

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## Adam

I can still recite Archimedes Principle from when I learned it at school.
"Whenever an object is wholly or partially immersed in a fluid ....."

For today's news:- It's dull & cold. Feels like Autumn has arrived.

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## Feckless Drone

Ivy nectar on tap here in Dundee. Great to see and with the good spell of weather then has to be a big plus for the winter. Now - the only question is how well were those Qs mated?

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## gavin

To the extent of putting something into supers, or just toppping up brood box stores?  One year I was enticed into putting a super on a colony working ivy but the flow stopped before they used it.  That was in the countryside to the west of you, perhaps the prospects are better in town.  Interesting all the same.  Ivy flows used to be a thing found only in the far SW (see Ted Hooper's book for example) but seem to have spread north and east some way.

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## Jon

They can fill a super if they get the weather for a week or so but that rarely happens.
Certainly plenty of pollen and nectar arriving at the moment.
My queens are all laying again and a lot had stopped in September.
Nice to see the bees so active. I was getting worried that there would be a shortage of young bees to overwinter but things look better now.

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## Feckless Drone

> To the extent of putting something into supers, or just toppping up brood box stores?


I am not going to do that - supers all tidied away, and Varroa treatments still in play so I'll just leave alone. I was tempted to go through my colonies to see what the Qs are doing but chickened out. I was happy enough to think (delude myself) that they would have started laying again with lots of healthy bees to see them through winter. Jon's just confirmed my delusion. Last year Qs seemed to shut down early and I don't recall such an extended period of good weather in the late summer into autumn.

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## greengumbo

Mine were piling in with pollen on sunday. All hives very busy  :Smile: 

It was a dirty brown yellow colour so I assume Ivy. Good to see !

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## Calluna4u

> Ivy nectar on tap here in Dundee. Great to see and with the good spell of weather then has to be a big plus for the winter. Now - the only question is how well were those Qs mated?


Was out feeding yesterday morning (at the time you were making that post) at Gray house just outside Dundee, a place with relatively abundant ivy (nothing compared to the amounts further south). Only a few plants are in flower, most still in tight bud. Most colonies were clustered and not a lot of bee flight. There was more activity later in the day at Star Inn, but only a minor amount of pollen being carried. Nice to see and a *fairly* reliable indication of queenright status. No smell so no significant ivy nectar. It has a powerful smell so you know if anything significant is going on. Not even close to warm enough, but the next day or two, with a bit of Fohn effect in play especially east of the Highlands, might give things a chance.

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## alancooper

Flowering generally is about two weeks late here. My apiary records over the last five years in Fermanagh, show that ivy can start from the second week in Sept to the first week in October. This year most is currently still in tight bud but there has been a lot of pollen and nectar brought in for about a week now, with forage searching probably helped by the calm weather.

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## Calluna4u

Its a strange old year.

Feeding 86 hives west of Perth yesterday afternoon not far from the River Earn. The bee flight on arrival was remarkable for the time of year and still loads of 'ghost bees' coming in with or without the dusted bodies but abundant cream coloured pollen. Also a significant number with either orange pollen or the dull yellow of ivy (must be going a long way for that, little nearby). It was so intense and so much fanning and dancing going on that I could not resist a look in a couple of the broodboxes. Brood in all stages, though not on more than a couple of frames, but good to see with all the concerns about worked out bees going into winter, but absolutely zero nectar.

Then I got the very odd phone call.

A swarm. Its the 21st of October for heavens sake. It was my son who knows a swarm when he sees one, and this one had landed on the windscreen wipers of a Unimog he was working on, and was splattered all over the windscreen. 'Have you just parked it somewhere daft and the flying bees are getting disorientated?' I asked. 'No, it is 50 yards from the nearest hives, AND I can see the queen,' he replied. It was actually a very small swarm when I checked it later, but yes it has a nice large queen in it.

It was at our mating apiary, where not all the boxes have been tidied away yet and some still have bees in them. Suspect that after the last queen harvest one of the boxes has raised a queen of its own, that she then mated and laid, and has become overcrowded and absconded. Very odd anyway. Did not intend to do anything with it as not really interested in late mated queens produced after all the good stock is drone free, reliant on drones from the 'defectives', but it has been stuck into a Kieller and fed, just to see what happens.

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## Jon

Could it have been one of the events I described on another thread where the queen is out on a mating flight or some activity associated with mating, accompanied by workers? What I have seen involves the queen and workers settling like a mini swarm. What temperature did you have yesterday? Was it warm enough for a mating flight to take place? Some parts of East Scotland were around 20c yesterday.

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## Calluna4u

No idea. I know it was quite warm in sheltered spots yesterday but it was pretty windy. There was no mating sign on the queen and no drones with the swarmlet. Took it away today, as despite a minimal entrance being left it was being attacked by wasps this morning after the syrup in feed compartment.

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## gavin

There is a pleasing level of warmth across two, three or four frames in the Paynes nucs at the moment.  Most of them should be good for the winter (if it isn't too severe).  Many are slowly using up the deluge of syrup applied recently but a few have had drained it completely.  Perhaps those ones are being robbed quietly, when I'm not looking. 

One colony free-hanging in a small tree was transferred (with Emma's help, thanks!) on Tuesday into a Paynes nuc box.  The whole thing was on one main branch, so we just snipped it to top bar size and put across the frame rests and placed an eke on top to accommodate the bow in the branch.  It is now taking feed.  Shame on me, I reckon it was a July swarm of mine that I thought had departed into the distance but in fact had set up home in the open on a small tree nearby.

Still pollen coming in, still holding off applying mouse guards to the wooden hives.  

Time to go through the notes, work out what went well and what didn't, and dream of how many full colonies I may have next spring when the nucs move up to full boxes.

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## fatshark

Finally got my first couple of colonies into my bee shed ... better late than never.
IMG_0030.JPG
Being stuffed with stores these colonies were a doddle to move on my own in the dark over a rather rickety bridge ...
Not  :Wink:

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## gavin

> Finally got my first couple of colonies into my bee shed ... better late than never.
> IMG_0030.JPG
> Being stuffed with stores these colonies were a doddle to move on my own in the dark over a rather rickety bridge ...
> Not


Lovely shed  :Smile: .

Give me a call next time and I'll ..... lend you my sack barrow?  Naw!  Come and give a hand.  Even though that IBC is now completely drained (!) I'm often over your way. 

I see that you've upgraded Fife to Finest.  Glad you're settling in nicely.

G.

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## Feckless Drone

> Finally got my first couple of colonies into my bee shed


It is quite a shed! I'm thinking that the major advantage has to be no more dropping the Q into the grass. My forte.

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## fatshark

> It is quite a shed!


I deliberately left the fridge and kettle out of sight to avoid shed-envy  :Wink:  There's a bit of space left for the armchair.

Thanks for the offer Gavin ... I used my (t)rusty hivebarrow _Buster_ (NSFW, or anywhere else) to move the colonies. I'll give you the grand tour once things are settled. The other thing out of sight in the photo is the end of the hose connected to the back of your IBC  :Wink:

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## gwizzie

Very nice David, where's the bracket for the 40" Tv ? LOL. How many hives you planning keeping in there ???

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## fatshark

Up to four full colonies and two nucs. Any more than that and I'd have to move the jacuzzi.

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## prakel

Nice piece @ approx 09:20 on Ron Brown and his (lack of) viruses:

*Inside Out South West 26/10/15*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0071mt5

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Nice piece @ approx 09:20 on Ron Brown and his (lack of) viruses: ...


Interesting Prakel.  It's Ron Hoskins - not Brown.
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Interesting Prakel.  It's Ron Hoskins - not Brown.
> Kitta


Yes unfortunately Ron Brown is gone now but his books live on
He was one of the first to discover varroa in the UK

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## prakel

I wouldn't worry too much about a slip by a less than well prakel, it's the content of the video which is interesting and really does deserve to be watched before iplayer takes it down. Should probably have posted it in Jon's grooming thread but chose not to as it is a transient link which won't be available in a month's time.

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## Wmfd

> I wouldn't worry too much about a slip by a less than well prakel, it's the content of the video which is interesting and really does deserve to be watched before iplayer takes it down. Should probably have posted it in Jon's grooming thread but chose not to as it is a transient link which won't be available in a month's time.


Thanks Prakel, very interesting.  It wasn't clear to me why the presence of one virus would crowd out another, but then I can't claim to be a virologist.  The balance of one virus against another, if that is what is going on, might explain why varroa resistance has sometimes struggled to be retained, as presumably treatment and other movements might disrupt any balance that does exist.

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## Wmfd

Checked around the hives today, removed feeders and set things ready for the winter.  I've even managed to move the swarm that moved into a horrible old brood box I'd been using as a wax melter - box and all moved to an out apiary.

Very picturesque mist as we drove up to drop off that colony.  Mist laying to a depth of about 5-6ft across the fens, with just the trees sticking out above it.

All the hives look like they have a good number of bees, so fingers crossed for better wintering than last year.  I've dropped the most exposed site and so all bees are at sites where I've had successful overwintering in the past.  These are all sites with some protection from the wind.

Not a lot else I can do now!

David

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## gavin

> Not a lot else I can do now!


Keep reading SBAi?   :Stick Out Tongue: 

The virus work in the video cited by Prakel has been published here:

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/...j2015186a.html

Very interesting.  The mechanism favoured by the authors seems to be direct exclusion of one (the virulent) form by the other (a non-virulent form) at the cellular level.  However there could be other explanations based on population dynamics in this three-way relationship of bee-mite-virus.

Maybe I should wait until a *real* virologist comments?!  

Good on Chris Packham for saving Ron's blushes by saying that his work is still valid.  Keeping mite numbers down by these hygienic and grooming traits may be part of the story, perhaps allowing colonies to get by which then permits changes in viral populations.

I wonder whether the Scottish Ron is still maintaining non-treated colonies?  Heard he'd been poorly.

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## Wmfd

> Keep reading SBAi?


Of course, if it's like last winter, then I'll read lots and plan all manner of things for next year that in reality will be overtaken by life, work etc! 

I think I need to retire  :Wink: 




> The virus work in the video cited by Prakel has been published here:
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/...j2015186a.html
> 
> Very interesting.  The mechanism favoured by the authors seems to be direct exclusion of one (the virulent) form by the other (a non-virulent form) at the cellular level.  However there could be other explanations based on population dynamics in this three-way relationship of bee-mite-virus.
> 
> Maybe I should wait until a *real* virologist comments?!  
> 
> Good on Chris Packham for saving Ron's blushes by saying that his work is still valid.  Keeping mite numbers down by these hygienic and grooming traits may be part of the story, perhaps allowing colonies to get by which then permits changes in viral populations.
> ...


Thanks Gavin, there is certainly a lot of detail in there, one for a proper read.

I agree, Chris Packham was very balanced on the mechanisms involved, and it could well be that the pulling out of infected larvae etc is contributing to the mix.  I thought that Ron had selected for evidence of varroa damage and larvae removal, so presumably those are still occuring.

What I couldn't tell from a quick skim was whether the type A/B split was the cause of the varroa resistance or a result.  Especially given the comment that Type B dominance on Big Island came before what was expected to be a die off as a result of varroa.   :Confused: 

All very confusing, we need someone who understands these sort of analyses to help us through it, someone who has written scientific papers perhaps ....!

David

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## nemphlar

Can it be that instead of a queen from Ron we need some of his varroa to inoculate our bees strange turn, enjoyed the programme thanks P

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## The Drone Ranger

Took a chicken to the vet (green poo digestive infection) and he gave the bird a treatment administered orally
Not designed to kill the bad bacteria but to displace it with healthy bacteria in the gut

p.s. Not the same as pro-biotic yoghurt which is just a marketing scam to sell you poo extract mixed with yoghurt in a tiny bottle and a high price

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## Feckless Drone

Well, yesterday's news. 1 Nov was a better forage day than anything in June. Checked out some eucalyptus - covered with bees. Pollen, tad more yellow than Ivy. Both going into my hives. Although the gum trees in Dundee always flower in autumn this is the first time I've actually seen bees working them.

IMG_0287.JPG

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## Kate Atchley

Glorious day yesterday and pollen being taken into the hives, lots of bees flying. There's eucalyptus and ivy for them down at Glenborrodale. Such a relief to see the colonies strong again after *those months* of running on empty.

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## Jon

Most of my colonies are full of brood again.
I pulled a frame from a colony yesterday and it had been laid up with eggs.
It will be great to have those young bees going into winter but will need to keep an eye on the stores.
If the weather turns colder and they stop foraging shortly there will be a lot of mouths to feed.

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## Calluna4u

> Most of my colonies are full of brood again.
> I pulled a frame from a colony yesterday and it had been laid up with eggs.
> It will be great to have those young bees going into winter but will need to keep an eye on the stores.
> If the weather turns colder and they stop foraging shortly there will be a lot of mouths to feed.


Not seen brood in any quantity in the main hives for weeks now, though we had it in the nucs that had never been on the high ground.

A lot of brood now would, superficially at least, give good young bees to help the colony through to spring, but I would also find it worrying, both for the stores consumption reason you give, and for the implications regarding the varroa population going into winter. I have seen them just tear out and dump really late brood when weather turns against them, so it can also end up just wasted effort that actually sets them back a bit.

Bees carrying quite a lot of pollen yesterday, and all that are in the position of still getting their winter feed are taking it down fine unless they are undersize in which case it is getting a bit late now. Still got about 600 to bring in off the hill (all cleared now, so its just bring and feed) but hope to be done by weekend. They look generally in better condition than I feared in September, but it is not yet clear how much 'age' the late heather flow has put onto the wintering bees. Still quite concerned.

Should have all the winter feeding completed in wooden hives (with a poly feeder for warmth) by Wednesday, and the poly hives by the end of next week. from past experience its only the likely duds that fai8l to take surup in a poly hive before mid Nov. so we should still be fine.


Also, been asked for a resume of the heather season by a few people. We are still extracting and will be for some time yet but we have a good idea of performance by area.
Deeside and adjacent glens were very poor east of Ballater. West of Ballater it got gradually better on Ling sites but remained poor on the high bell locations. First two weeks 0f September brought honey in the range between Ballater and Braemar but side glens remained very patchy.
Up the A9 it was ok really north of Newtonmore, but very poor south of that down to Dalwhinnie. Some places off the main valley did quite well in the context of the season and brought a near normal crop albeit every scrap of it after 27th August and mostly from 5th to 20th September.
West Perthshire stayed poor with only two locations from 7 getting much at all, again all was in September. This area was seriously hurt by the dearth in July and August and the colonies declined terribly so our experience there may not match that of others who kept their bees on the low ground and fed them, only bringing them up once flowering began.

No Bell heather honey at all this year, its all ling of a very high purity. Overall crop on the heather is going to end up at 60 to 65% of long term average, varying from 25% of normal around Dinnet and Amulree to about 80% of normal around Braemar, Kingussie and Aviemore.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Most of my colonies are full of brood again.
> I pulled a frame from a colony yesterday and it had been laid up with eggs.
> It will be great to have those young bees going into winter but will need to keep an eye on the stores.
> If the weather turns colder and they stop foraging shortly there will be a lot of mouths to feed.


You need bees to reduce the water content in stores though so it might be a good thing
When they get all the feed at the same time and end up with no broodnest that might be worse

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## Jon

Mine were largely broodless in September but the ivy and the mild weather has kick started them again.
I have a dozen or so queens in apideas and those ones are still laying as well.
The mites levels are always a worry but I got shot of most of them in August and September with Apiguard treatment.
Mite levels in some of my colonies were dangerously high when I sampled in July.

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## Feckless Drone

> Should have all the winter feeding completed in wooden hives (with a poly feeder for warmth) by Wednesday, and the poly hives by the end of next week. and resume of the heather season


C4U - interesting for many reasons. You are feeding much later than I am, I completed that by end Sept for some, start of Oct for the rest. My feeding is carried out over 2-3 weeks, not all in one go but with a small quantity followed by a couple of large feeds, but I still suspect I run the risk of clogging up the hive and maybe not leaving enough room for late brood rearing.

I took my bees up to the heather later then you do, but did not feed. The forage for them was pretty good in early Aug- and I had supers on so frames just got moved over to other colonies and thin foundation put on for the heather-bound hives. Because the forage was good the Qs had picked up laying but I thought a bit late to get lots of bees of a foraging age but they seemed to do OK towards the end of the heather. The heather flow was later than I expected, in one of the Angus glens it came in during the middle of Sept (thankfully - cause I thought I was going to get nada, and once more lose credibility -  DR's "hey this is science" line not going to work with gamekeepers). But, I brought mine down and harvested earlier than you do - wanting to get on with feeding and varroa treatments. I might need to rethink my timings and be willing to leave them up in the hills a bit longer. 

What is your regime for varroa at this point?

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## Calluna4u

> C4U - interesting for many reasons. You are feeding much later than I am, I completed that by end Sept for some, start of Oct for the rest. My feeding is carried out over 2-3 weeks, not all in one go but with a small quantity followed by a couple of large feeds, but I still suspect I run the risk of clogging up the hive and maybe not leaving enough room for late brood rearing.
> 
> I took my bees up to the heather later then you do, but did not feed. The forage for them was pretty good in early Aug- and I had supers on so frames just got moved over to other colonies and thin foundation put on for the heather-bound hives. Because the forage was good the Qs had picked up laying but I thought a bit late to get lots of bees of a foraging age but they seemed to do OK towards the end of the heather. The heather flow was later than I expected, in one of the Angus glens it came in during the middle of Sept (thankfully - cause I thought I was going to get nada, and once more lose credibility -  DR's "hey this is science" line not going to work with gamekeepers). But, I brought mine down and harvested earlier than you do - wanting to get on with feeding and varroa treatments. I might need to rethink my timings and be willing to leave them up in the hills a bit longer. 
> 
> What is your regime for varroa at this point?


Our timing is actually mainly a logistics matter. I would think it PERFECT if we could have all our bees home and fed for early October but it would cost me a kings ransom and we would get into a very serious bottleneck at home base with the yard all backed up with pallets waiting to go through the extracting room. we have over 60 pallets waiting as it is.....

We are also using invert all the time, only variant is fondant in times when they will not take the syrup, which mostly means December to  early March. Nothing wrong with your timings if you do not have other pressures and you are using normal sugar syrup. They can take and store invert safely as sound stores a good bit later than needs to be the case with less concentrated feed.

The old saying that if you are up for the grouse shooting you are up in time held good this year, in fact some people went a lot later than that this year and did fine. On a smaller scale you can afford to wait till you see the whites of its eyes before you go. It takes us 2 to 3 weeks to move everything. The old saying sometimes holds true, but of course it discounts the bell heather. Even though, in 12 of the last 20 years the best flow was past if you waited till the 12th August. Some years there is little ling and the bell is the bulk of what comes in. We start to move in the first week of July, to have everything up in time, bell dominant sites first like Dinnet, and higher ling sites last. Earliest season we had in Deeside had the main ling flow starting in the last days of July, and we cannot afford to miss it, so we get our skates on fairly sharpish knowing we are missing little of commercial value down here. Like you, in late August it was looking catastrophic, maybe 20% of normal overall, but it picked up to merely being a failure (in commercial terms that is).

If we had to treat for varroa now we would wait until the week before Christmas and do an oxalic trickle. Works fine though a bit hard on the small ones which we would probably prefer to leave to take their chance (but never do for fear of them reinfesting their neighbours). We never sublimate as we just cannot deal with the logistics of going round everything for the succession of treatments required, and no chemist/beekeeper I know does it, and was advised very strongly by one of them not to. I have staff welfare and possible litigation to consider if any of them were harmed by it. One of my guys used to do it in Germany and Austria and did not greatly rate the effects and also that it made them feel pretty off colour after doing very large numbers of hives every few days.

You are local, and I have no problem if you were to pop in some time and see what we do and have a chatter. Any who do find out we are not the big bad bogey man, but actually just the same in so many ways, just the numbers are bigger.

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## Emma

Yesterday's news... after many days away, I was able to spend an hour or two loitering in the apiary again. Two hives have now turned space-age: I hid one beneath a neat, shiny insulation-foam cover, and crudely wrapped the other one in even shinier 1970s aluminium foil beer bags. An attempt at weatherproofing: in a few months I'll find out whether I've kept the damp out or in.
There was plenty of pollen going in but I have no idea how much brood there is inside and I'm astonished that so many of you are still checking. My colonies have had their grumpy "Keep Out!" notices up for weeks by now. Aren't yours the same?! Even gently tinkering with hive arrangements for a couple of them yesterday - just lifting parts of their crownboards - led to some angry smells and a very unhappy collective muttering. They didn't sting, but some very spiky little bottoms were raised in my general direction. I'll be on external checks only for the next few months.

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## Greengage

I was getting concerned there for a while so nice to hear im on the same track as Emma, as people were still checking their hives, I have closed mine up for the past two weeks all looks good but time will tell. There are bees still flying bringing in Pollen from Ivy. Here in the centre of Ireland it has been very foggy for the past few days so not much activity. I traveled to the south west last weekend (Kerry) and visited a small apiary like most other places he did not have a very productive year either his bees are still flying and wasps are stilll active around the hive. I had some of his cut comb honey delicious. As I dont own an extractor I think I will collect cut comb rather than extract honey next season, also saw an idea on the net where jars with a little comb were placed above the crown board and bees filled them up looked clever, then I can afford to play around with these ideas as Iam not dependant on it for a living. This is the idea http://removeandreplace.com/2013/05/...d-project-diy/ would I be silly or would it work.

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## Calluna4u

To the last two posters, you are on the right lines. Even we have finished going into broodnests for the year now. Honey is all off and are on the last few days of carting the hives home from the moors. All being well we will not now 'break comb' at all until warm days in April. Once they are adequately fed, and have taken it, there is not much you can do to benefit them by nosing in at this time of year. From now till spring if we DO enter a broodnest it will be because of a problems of some kind, like a hive damaged by a tree branch or whatever nefarious reason (normally involving kids and rocks) and we need to move it into an undamaged hive.

They will still take syrup in a poly hive or from a poly feeder but even that is nearing an end. If you gave them enough leave the anxiety behind and relax till early spring. They WILL be ok. No need even to break the propolis/wax seal they make. Curiosity killed the cat.

Nothing unusual about the timing. Bonfire night is about our normal finish date. We will be a couple of days late on that this year, but that's not a serious issue considering how late the season ran and we were 10 days to two weeks late starting harvest and migration work, we have actually caught up a bit.

......

'break comb' was an old timers expression for going into the broodnest investigating. Does not apply if all you are doing is looking down from the top bars. However its still advisable not to go lifting feeders or crown boards to look at the cluster in winter. Breaks the carefully applied seal the bees put in place AND its surprising how often the queen is right at the top and if you did not spot her, and carelessly replace the board/ feeder/ whatever it can be crunchy time for the queen and a knackered hive for spring. So easy to do.

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## Pete L

> However its still advisable not to go lifting feeders or crown boards to look at the cluster in winter. Breaks the carefully applied seal the bees put in place


When doing the winter oxalic trickle treatment are not all of the carefully applied seals going to be broken, just before what is usually the coldest part of the year.

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## Feckless Drone

> Our timing is actually mainly a logistics matter.


Yes, I can appreciate better now that you are juggling a lot re timings, space, staffing, money. Graeme Sharp gave an interesting talk at the ESBA last night on Q rearing and he touched on certain logistics as well with his 100 or so colonies. Anyway, your comments give me some confidence then in my timings. 

For Emma - I've not lifted frames since last week in Sept seeing the same "keep away please" signs and only then in one hive to check how supersedure was going - answer is I can't be sure cause new Q was running around (I think), just a few eggs visible, so left with fingers crossed. I don't intend to open hives until applying oxalic acid on a really cold day in late Dec/early Jan. Generally such a quick procedure that should not be too disruptive. Then its just worrying about them until April and trying not to buy stuff I don't need. Actually, this winter I'll try to read some of the really old time books - look for myths and truths!

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## Calluna4u

> When doing the winter oxalic trickle treatment are not all of the carefully applied seals going to be broken, just before what is usually the coldest part of the year.


Of course. You have to balance out which you think is more important. Preserve the seal or kill the varroa. Of course its normally the latter. Its just good practice but by no means a rule.

However, not everyone does the mid winter trickle and indeed I would hazard a guess that the way fashions go in beekeeping that the practice is in at least temporary decline. We see no need for it this year as our bees seems to have a negligible mite load after the double whammy (for varroa) of a mid season treatment with Biowar (Apivar equivalent) and a partial brood break in July.

We have the oxalic on hand to use if I change my mind, and I am being strongly pressured by Jolanta to use it, but I favour leaving them alone, especially the smaller colonies.

Sublimation of oxalic seems to have become very fashionable and hopefully all will be finished by now. Also if you have used any of the thymol or formic acid based treatments. If so and finished with them than leave well alone.

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## gwizzie

Just been up to check on my hives and they are flying well, most of the hives has taken all the sugar syrup that I gave it 2 have not touched it. I know I am new to beekeeping but there taking in some amount of pollen, is this normal ? does this mean the queen is still laying or are they just topping up supplies ?

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## Pete L

> However, not everyone does the mid winter trickle and indeed I would hazard a guess that the way fashions go in beekeeping that the practice is in at least temporary decline.


I have only ever done a winter treatment using oxalic acid trickle method during two winters, 2007 & 2008, much prefer to sort out the mite problems in late summer early autumn, hopefully before the winter bees are produced,  I like some of the thymol treatments and oxalic sublimation,  am also using Biowar for the first time on some of the full size colonies this season, and on all of the nucs, plus a third of a strip in all the over wintering mini nucs.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
Appreciate the point about staff welfare and oxalic sublimation, evaporation, whatever the right description is 
It is pretty effective treatment though 

I did a bar graph of mites killed in Winter 2008/9  using a varrox vaporiser (after a September/October  treatment with Apistan which I think was a waste of money)
It might look pretty ropey here because I can only upload a Jpeg  but have a look at the graph it should give the general picture
28thvarroacount2009.jpg
Thats the drop from 22 hives in a stacked bar graph
In other words the total varroa count in the apiary

I have read on other forums about people doing lots of oxalic treatments one after another
I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would think that was OK or even necessary
Two takes care of almost all the mites

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Two hives have now turned space-age: I hid one beneath a neat, shiny insulation-foam cover, and crudely wrapped the other one in even shinier 1970s aluminium foil beer bags. An attempt at weatherproofing: in a few months I'll find out whether I've kept the damp out or in.
> 
> My colonies have had their grumpy "Keep Out!" notices up for weeks by now. Aren't yours the same?! ...


I've had to remove the Apivar strips from the colonies and have been dreading doing so as the weather turned colder and colder - but with today and yesterday's wonderful weather it was easy, and the bees weren't particularly annoyed.  They were flying about enjoying the two windless sunny days anyway.  Mostly I just tried to pull out the strips without moving frames about, but I did check a couple of colonies that I thought were queenless when I last looked at them about a month ago - and found worker brood!  So I'm happy about that.

Emma, I have polystyrene hives and have no experience of wrapping them, but if you have wooden hives, I think you need to leave a small gap between the wood and the wrapping to allow for any water in the wood to evaporate and, I think, avoid dampness.  Perhaps somebody can help out and tell us whether I'm right.

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Just been up to check on my hives and they are flying well, most of the hives has taken all the sugar syrup that I gave it 2 have not touched it. I know I am new to beekeeping but there taking in some amount of pollen, is this normal ? does this mean the queen is still laying or are they just topping up supplies ?


Could be a bit of both Graham 
It's a good sign though

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## fatshark

Interesting graph DR ... either my eyesight is even worse than I thought or you've not indicated the spacing between the OA sublimation treatments? Can you enlighten me, or send me to SpecSavers?

I did three in a row earlier in September, at 5 day intervals and still had a 'worthwhile' mite drop after the last treatment. Since then, almost nothing.

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## Pete L

> Interesting graph DR ... either my eyesight is even worse than I thought or you've not indicated the spacing between the OA sublimation treatments? Can you enlighten me, or send me to SpecSavers?


From reading the paragraph under the chart it looks like the first treatment was on the 30th of October and the second treatment on the 8th of December...i think.

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## The Drone Ranger

> From reading the paragraph under the chart it looks like the first treatment was on the 30th of October and the second treatment on the 8th of December...i think.


Yes Pete thats right
Sorry about the quality Fatshark heres a link to a PDF which will let you enlarge the graph and read the text hopefully
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4k...ew?usp=sharing

The dates when the counting got done are not all equally spaced but you can take the drop and divide by the intervening number of days and again by 22 hives to get the average drop per hive if you wanted that info

The hive number and its colour key is on the right 

I was mainly interested in the whole apiary picture so thats why the stacked bar graph format
I did the same survey/counting of kill rate a couple of years later but I'm not sure where that graph is filed at the moment

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## gwizzie

> Could be a bit of both Graham 
> It's a good sign though


Excellent, they were all flying well today like a mid summers morning. Fingers crossed for a mild winter and a warm spring.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kitta
Wrapping hives ?
Cedar hives don't need painting
Cheap soft timber needs paint but that's all
Probably do a lot more harm than good wrapping them in anything
But hey it's nearly Christmas so a colourful wrapping paper would look nice

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## fatshark

Thanks DR and Pete (Specsavers here I come). I don't really need convincing about OA vaporisation but the graph is pretty compelling. Presumably the colonies are reasonably brood-free during that period (end-October to early December) so giving the little b'stards nowhere to hide. 

There's clearly a lot of interest in sublimation/vaporisation on the forums (fora?) at the moment. I'm sure it's a lot less damaging to bees than trickling (as well as easier to administer). I've used it almost exclusively this year, including some colonies (not for honey production) that were treated regularly in high season. These had very low mite numbers at the last treatment. None of the queens have been lost and I've no evidence of damaged brood (though, in fairness, I've not done a side-by-side comparison with trickling which is reported to damage brood). I've got perspex crownboards and there's a bit of agitation during treatment, but they settle down within minutes afterwards. I've even treated casts and the virgin Q has got out within a day or so and mated without problem.

Perhaps the next 'hot topic' should be how long OA persists in the hive and whether it can be used in season - for example, between spring and summer flows - without contaminating honey?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Perhaps the next 'hot topic' should be how long OA persists in the hive and whether it can be used in season - for example, between spring and summer flows - without contaminating honey?


Hi Fatshark
I can't answer that question but I would be fairly confident to say that varroa are still being killed/ damaged 30 days after the treatment because the difference before and after the second treatment isn't huge

I wouldn't use OA in season except in close to broodless circumstances myself

Usually in September or thereabouts there will be a brood break in many hives (people worry their queen has gone)
Also if you use Snelgrove boards the box with the queen and flying bees at split time could be treated
The problem in those cases though is that bees are still coming and going gathering stores etc

The best time is when most flying has stopped for the season but before the cluster is very tight (I think)

It would be simple enough to take the supers off in season because the whole treatment only takes 15mins or so before the vapour has settled as fine crystals in the brood box and on the bees 
It probably wouldn't show up in honey but the treatment would likely be less effective ?

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## Duncan

Beekeepers stung by fake Chinese honey:
http://www.euronews.com/2015/10/30/p...chinese-honey/

When a similar topic was posted last week it was labelled as racist by Admin.  I hope that Admin doesn't not view this post as such and come out in support of a country that has been the subject of anti-dumping action in the USA.

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## alancooper

[QUOTE=I was mainly interested in the whole apiary picture [/QUOTE]
I have used oxalic acid sublimation varroa treatment for two years and have found it a very effective treatment. Did you find any Q losses with the sublimation? In my first year I lost one Q (of the 5 hives treated). She stumbled out a few minutes after application and croaked - maybe an unlucky "beginners blast" from the fumes.

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## alancooper

> Hi Fatshark
> I wouldn't use OA in season except in close to broodless circumstances myself.
> Usually in September or thereabouts there will be a brood break in many hives (people worry their queen has gone)


I considered a treatment by OA sublimation in September, when I had a three week "no eggs" break in all my hives this year - but because my varroa numbers were so very low, I did not do it. Have you ever sublimated in September?

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## Kate Atchley

I've bought one of the inexpensive vaporisers sold on eBay and planned to use with OA in December. I had assumed one treatment was sufficient but is it best to do two or three? Varroa has only just been detected in the hives concerned (sadly ... on the move) and mite levels are low.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I've bought one of the inexpensive vaporisers sold on eBay and planned to use with OA in December. I had assumed one treatment was sufficient but is it best to do two or three? Varroa has only just been detected in the hives concerned (sadly ... on the move) and mite levels are low.


Kate I would say two is plenty
I would see what drops in the first 4 weeks or so after treatment one and decide whether to do another

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## The Drone Ranger

> I considered a treatment by OA sublimation in September, when I had a three week "no eggs" break in all my hives this year - but because my varroa numbers were so very low, I did not do it. Have you ever sublimated in September?


Hi Alan 
No I don't think I ever have used Oxalic in Sept (can't remember without going back over all notes)

Some years ago I think it was Alan Teale who gave me his recipe for DIY thymol treatment
Anyway it started me off making my own which probably is nothing like his original (apologies for that)

The recipe I use is pretty simple 
Dissolve 500grms thymol in 1ltr of surgical spirit 
Put 2 small flat sponges under the crown board and add 20ml to each one
Wait 2 weeks and put another 20ml on each sponge
Leave 2 weeks and remove sponges

Regards the queen croaking
 I haven't had any bees die but I don't just poke the varrox in the hive and hope for the best
Ian Craig had some drawings for his varroa floor on the SBA website
It's basically a solid standard floor with another mesh floor perched on top
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk...a%20floors.pdf
That's pretty much what I use myself

The space between solid and mesh floors where the varroa tray slides out is where I put the varrox (and use foam to plug the gap)
So the rising heated oxalic passes into the hive through the epoxy coated mesh floor spreading it more evenly
This saves accidentally cooking any bees

This year I have a few Paynes polynucs so will need to make something to sit them on as the vapour goes through the bottom mesh

----------


## GRIZZLY

Watch you dont touch the plastic with  vapouriser D.R. The foam plastic will melt very quickly and is difficult to repair satisfactorily.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Grizzly
I melted a hole in  my beesuit face mesh with just a slight senior moment and a hot smoker  :Smile:

----------


## busybeephilip

>The recipe I use is pretty simple 
>Dissolve 500grms thymol in 1ltr of surgical spirit 
>Put 2 small flat sponges under the crown board and add 20ml to each one
>Wait 2 weeks and put another 20ml on each sponge
>Leave 2 weeks and remove sponges


That's 10 grams / sponge.  given that an api life var tablet has 8 gram of thymol then that method should be quite effective !

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Phillip
It is pretty effective in the reasonable temperatures at the start and finish of the season
and if you need to take care of varroa urgently  
The surgical spirit evaporates faster than an apilife var tablet would but the bees are not harmed 
When the thymol is all dissolved in the Surgical Spirit you have about 1.4 ltrs of liquid most of which goes back in the two 500ml spirit bottles 
Once the bottles are are closed up the solution will be good for a couple of years at least 
I have plenty spare empty bottles from previous years to put the extra bit in but a honey jar would do

----------


## fatshark

> Have you ever sublimated in September?


Yes. No obvious problems (other than for the mites)*. I like to get my mite treatments done early to allow the Q to continue laying as late as possible. I've previously added Apiguard in late August as soon as the honey supers are off (and, since Apiguard regularly stops the Q from laying, this is one of the reasons to start treatment pronto). This year the supers didn't come off until early/mid-Sept and I then treated by sublimation, though using three treatments 5 days apart as there was lots of brood in the colonies (I think it was Hivemaker on BKF who has conducted some tests optimising treatments with brood present).

* I've only been into the colonies once since the last treatment and all were queenright though one had stopped laying. I didn't give her the benefit of the doubt I'm afraid  :Frown:  but united the colony with a strong one. The rest had good amounts of brood for mid-October suggesting the mid/late September vaporisation hadn't caused too many problems.

I've got photos of all the trays but am ashamed to say haven't got round to counting them all yet. 

The beauty of the vaporiser I've got is you just push the nozzle through a 8mm hole in the side of the floor and let 'em have it. For poly hives I've made a block of wood with an 8mm hole I hold across the entrance.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> ... I haven't had any bees die but I don't just poke the varrox in the hive and hope for the best...The space between solid and mesh floors where the varroa tray slides out is where I put the varrox (and use foam to plug the gap)
> So the rising heated oxalic passes into the hive through the epoxy coated mesh floor spreading it more evenly. This saves accidentally cooking any bees


Many thanks DR. Very helpful. I'll be able to vaporise from below the mesh floor on most of the hives but the polyhives and Paynes nucs present more of a challenge. Will probably use the entrances of the Swienty hives but with a thin slate or similar beneath the metal parts to protect the foam from the heat. Might end up trickling for the nucs.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> ... The beauty of the vaporiser I've got is you just push the nozzle through a 8mm hole in the side of the floor and let 'em have it. For poly hives I've made a block of wood with an 8mm hole I hold across the entrance.


The block of wood fills the entrance either side of the nozzle, yes?  Do you need to protect the polystyrene from the heat of the nozzle as it goes in/out or simply hold it off the surface until its over the mesh part of the floor. The rod through the entrance must get pretty hot too? (You can tell I haven't done this yet!)

----------


## gavin

> The block of wood fills the entrance either side of the nozzle, yes?  Do you need to protect the polystyrene from the heat of the nozzle as it goes in/out or simply hold it off the surface until its over the mesh part of the floor. The rod through the entrance must get pretty hot too? (You can tell I haven't done this yet!)


Are the risks to the operator and to the polystyrene worthwhile compared to trickling?  I don't see the need to use heat and vapours.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Are the risks to the operator and to the polystyrene worthwhile compared to trickling?  I don't see the need to use heat and vapours.


Hear what you say Gavin I have never measured the results of trickling 
I'm pretty sure there will be some data on results 

I always like to test things for myself and measure the results before I commit to a method 
I would encourage everybody to do the same not just take my word for it

I was collecting the dead varroa and putting some under the microscope looking for crystals on their bodies and feet
Once I started to see less of that I did the second oxalic treatment

If you have the Ian Craig type floor it's very simple to do evaporation

Poly hives are a bit more challenging and I have no real ideas how to approach that 
Fatshark might have the best way to get that done have to think it over

----------


## GRIZZLY

Never had any problems with trickling - even in frosty conditions ,. everything takes place so quickly that the heat loss is minimal. I think sublimation is too risky, if you get O.A liquid on you it can be washed off - if you inadvertently inhale the sublimated stuff its off to medical care and don't kid me that all operators wear full breathing protection -   they just risk it.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Are the risks to the operator and to the polystyrene worthwhile compared to trickling?  I don't see the need to use heat and vapours.


I've trickled often enough but the research suggests OA sublimation knocks down more mites and harms fewer bees. Repeat treatments can be applied if necessary. 

I can't find the research findings I was reading last week but here's a FB entry which explains: http://www.facebook.com/indianastate...369206?fref=nf. 

Maybe someone else can offer sources on this?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Never had any problems with trickling - even in frosty conditions ,. everything takes place so quickly that the heat loss is minimal. I think sublimation is too risky, if you get O.A liquid on you it can be washed off - if you inadvertently inhale the sublimated stuff its off to medical care and don't kid me that all operators wear full breathing protection -   they just risk it.


Hi Grizzly
Well I'm a bit of a coward round some things, so I have several bottles of Formic acid quietly aging in the chemical cupboard  (old larder fridge)
Most times there is always a slight breeze so the trick here is to stay upwind of the hive  (opposite of deer stalking I suppose)
Even a dilapidated old wreck like me can hold his breath for a few seconds  (never go in water if you can't do this)
Plus the lead on my varrox is very long  (boasting again)  :Smile: 
It's the method I have always used and I'm still above ground

I think Kate is right that the sublimation method is more effective because you have a very fine mist which reaches all the bees and areas of the hive
I haven't measured or tested how effective trickling is it's probably pretty good and I might have to use it on the polynucs 
If I do I might examine the dead mites to see what the effect of the trickle is in them

I once had two mites on a microscope slide and sprayed them with lactic acid 
An hour later they were fine so I put some drops of the stuff on and let them swim in it
Couple of hours later they were still alive and kicking so the lactic acid spray (Thornes) went in the bin

I do take your and Gavin's point and that trickle is very simple to apply

----------


## Calluna4u

> Poly hives are a bit more challenging and I have no real ideas how to approach that 
> Fatshark might have the best way to get that done have to think it over


As seen abroad....
Drill a hole in the front of the hive the diameter of a piece of domestic water pipe (seen both copper and plastic used), cut a short length of the pipe and glue it into the hole. Using the sublimator pipe blow it in through the hole. Plug the hole with bit of cork or wood to await next round.

----------


## fatshark

> ... and don't kid me that all operators wear full breathing protection -   they just risk it.


They should. It's unpleasant stuff. And that's after reading up on it, not personal experience. I use an approved 3M particle mask and enclosing goggles. I also stand upwind *and* try to ensure the hive is sealed so all the 'goodness' goes to the mites, not the operator.

There's data on effectiveness in papers cited by Randy Oliver on scientificbeekeeping.com (perhaps here).

Re. poly hives ... my vaporiser has a narrow nozzle (7-8mm diameter and about an inch long ... stop that _Fnarr, Fnarr_ in the back row DR) and the OA vapour is blown out through it. It's not like the Varrox-type which is more of a passive vaporiser. Hence mine stays outside the hive, with only the nozzle pushed through a hole in the floor or - in the case of poly hives - through a block of wood held against the entrance. None of the vaporiser actually contacts the poly so nothing melts.

----------


## fatshark

> As seen abroad....
> Drill a hole in the front of the hive the diameter of a piece of domestic water pipe (seen both copper and plastic used), cut a short length of the pipe and glue it into the hole. Using the sublimator pipe blow it in through the hole. Plug the hole with bit of cork or wood to await next round.


That'll do ... but not for a Varrox-type.

----------


## gavin

> As seen abroad....
> Drill a hole in the front of the hive the diameter of a piece of domestic water pipe (seen both copper and plastic used), cut a short length of the pipe and glue it into the hole. Using the sublimator pipe blow it in through the hole. Plug the hole with bit of cork or wood to await next round.


I'm impressed!  With the typing I mean ... poor C4U has been in the wars and by rights we should expect fairly monosyllabic posts for the time being.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> They should. It's unpleasant stuff... I use an approved 3M particle mask and enclosing goggles. I also stand upwind *and* try to ensure the hive is sealed so all the 'goodness' goes to the mites, not the operator.
> 
> There's data on effectiveness in papers cited by Randy Oliver on scientificbeekeeping.com (perhaps here)...


Thanks for this fatshark. I will use my protective mask, goggles, gloves and clothing (why would you not) but passive vaporising of the Varrox type (heating acid inside the hive) has less risks than using a vaporiser with a fan which blows the mist from a tube (from outside the hive).  Quoting fatshark's useful reference: "The passive models are inherently safer, since no vapors are blown outside the hive." 

So I'll continue to puzzle out ways to use without damage to any of the polynucs or polyhives.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Kate
I have a Scott Pro2 facemask with suitable filters something like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOTT-resp...8AAOSwT6pVulgA
I'm not recommending this seller or anything just an illustration

They make them in large,medium and small and the filters are replaceable
For anyone reading the thread please note though the sort of facemask sold in B&Q for plastering or carpentry dust is useless for the job
you need filters which are for vapour and gas from acids A1B1E1K1 in this case

Always being upwind is best though unless you want to look like an extra on a Doctor Who set

----------


## alclosier

> So I'll continue to puzzle out ways to use without damage to any of the polynucs or polyhives.


I've not used a sublimator, but if I was to and on a polyhive I think I would create some form of wooden sub floor/stand from wood to go under the varroa floor. Or adapt the hive stand to facilitate usage of the sublimator.


Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

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## fatshark

> Thanks for this fatshark. I will use my protective mask, goggles, gloves and clothing (why would you not) but passive vaporising of the Varrox type (heating acid inside the hive) has less risks than using a vaporiser with a fan which blows the mist from a tube (from outside the hive).  Quoting fatshark's useful reference: "The passive models are inherently safer, since no vapors are blown outside the hive."


Hmmm ... although I gave that reference I'm not entirely in agreement with the statement. Both active and passive vaporisers will produce a 'fog' of OA crystals inside the hive. The 'active' model I've got (Sublimox) is inserted *into* the hive before inverting it. The inversion drops the OA (oops, I meant Api-Bioxal  :Wink:  ) into the heating pan. If used correctly, this type of active vaporiser does not blow vapours outside the hive, though a few wisps inevitably escape from poor seals.

So still best to take care.

----------


## GRIZZLY

What is difference between API-BIOXOL and O.A apart from the HUGELY inflated price ?.

----------


## Kate Atchley

youtube has many videos of OA vaporising some of which are alarming in their neglect of safety – this one for instance using a Varrox vaporiser (from England?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOlHJO4VgQ. Curiously, the explanation of why he's not wearing a mask (or gloves or eye protection) has been cut or he stopped talking at that point.

This one shows a vaporiser which pumps the vapour into the hive but with more care being taken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NoYE2FA6_U

I enjoy watching Don The Fat Man who is here doing his customary unprotected beekeeping: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo. He makes strong claims for the treatment. 

Loads more there to explore but few where folk are taking sufficient precautions.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Curiously, the explanation of why he's not wearing a mask (or gloves or eye protection) has been cut or he stopped talking at that point.
> 
> .


reading this I fell about laughing, with a mental picture of him being carried off the set  :Smile:

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## gavin

> What is difference between API-BIOXOL and O.A apart from the HUGELY inflated price ?.


Api-Bioxal is pre-weighed, legal and *very* expensive .... whereas a packet of oxalic acid crystals is very much cheaper and is illegal if used to treat Varroa.  That's about it.  From their website it looks like Thorne have stopped selling generic oxalic acid but most of us have a packet or two to last a lifetime in the cupboard.

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## Pete L

> From their website it looks like Thorne have stopped selling generic oxalic acid but most of us have a packet or two to last a lifetime in the cupboard.


 Maisimore are still selling it and some other ready made oxalic liquid treatment...plus Api-bioxal.

http://www.bees-online.co.uk/categories.asp?Sector_ID=7

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## The Drone Ranger

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/intridl4.html
Just some toxicity stuff
Really nothing much seems to have been done since the 1930's
You would conclude that acetic and formic are worse than oxalic 
It falls somewhere between Isopropranol and something like toluene which you will have used with your microscope
These are figures of 30min exposure levels where there is no lasting effects or damage
If I read it right, once they calculate the safe exposure they divide the no harm calculated dosage by 10 to arrive at their recommended maximum exposure level for 30mins

Stand upwind then thats my advice  :Smile: 

Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-Oxali...AAAOSwo6lWN1Q3

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## Pete L

> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/intridl4.html
> Just some toxicity stuff


There is some further info in the link below about the safety of oxalic sublimation.

Scroll to bottom of page and open the link headed... Evaporation of oxalic acid—a safe method for the user.

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkere...x.html?lang=en

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## The Drone Ranger

> There is some further info in the link below about the safety of oxalic sublimation.
> 
> Scroll to bottom of page and open the link headed... Evaporation of oxalic acid—a safe method for the user.
> 
> http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkere...x.html?lang=en


Thanks Pete thats a fairly clear recent study which gives reassurance to me as I stand upwind looking like Darth Vader  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

Finally dug up the sequel to the first graph
This is Summer 2009 through to Spring 2010
Used a lot of different treatments trying to get caparisons of effectiveness
Unfortunately I didn't keep enough notes so its largely just WYSIWYG
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4k...ew?usp=sharing

Apologies for the link it's a PDF and I cant display that here but it can be enlarged and read more easily

The hive numbers are at the top and not all consecutive but there are still 22 hives
Screenshot-1.jpg

Thats a screenshot which may not be readable by comparison

I think you might agree that the Oxalic acid treatment gets to the varroa that other cleaners just don't manage
Bit like Fairy Liquid used to claim  :Smile: 

Actually when there is brood present I think the Apiguard or Thymol Sponges (recipe in earlier post) are better bet (as you would expect)

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## fatshark

> What is difference between API-BIOXOL and O.A apart from the HUGELY inflated price ?.


You can't buy Api-Bioxal at a yacht chandlers in 25kg buckets  :Wink: 

More seriously, much of the the OA offered by a popular online auction house is 99+% pure, but the paperwork for the Api-Bioxal states that 88% is OA.Not sure what the remainder is, though I read a suggestion somewhere that it might be glucose.

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## The Drone Ranger

> You can't buy Api-Bioxal at a yacht chandlers in 25kg buckets 
> 
> More seriously, much of the the OA offered by a popular online auction house is 99+% pure, but the paperwork for the Api-Bioxal states that 88% is OA.Not sure what the remainder is, though I read a suggestion somewhere that it might be glucose.


got my slogans crossed earlier

"Refreshes the parts that other beers cannot reach"
Heineken not fairy liquid 

I suppose fairy might have a good a head on it  though

----------


## GRIZZLY

I've also just read that it might contain an amount of glucose together with an anti-clog agent, I don't think I would like to sublimate that lot - just think of the toxic residues.

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## gavin

> I've also just read that it might contain an amount of glucose together with an anti-clog agent, I don't think I would like to sublimate that lot - just think of the toxic residues.


Quite right, John.  The burning sugar will not be pleasant and I wouldn't want the colloidal silica hydrate blowing about either though it may get stuck in the goo from burning sugar.

You post has encouraged me to look into this.  Following their recipe for trickling gives this solution:

- about 6.0% (weight/volume) of oxalic acid dihydrate in 1:1 syrup.  'About' as I'm guessing at the volume increase when you add 35g powder to 500ml 1:1 sugar syrup.

- they claim this as '4.2%' on the basis of anhydrous equivalent of oxalic added to the solution.

If I remember correctly the usual recipe (1l water + 1kg sugar + 75g OA dihydrate) most of us use gives:

- 4.5% (w/v of real dihydrate crystals in 1:1 syrup), aka
- 3.2% (w/v equivalent of anhydrous OA)

Some of us use even weaker solutions.

In other words ApiBioxal made up as they recommend is 100*(6/4.5) = 33% stronger than we (and our bees) are used to.  It is the method developed for Italy long ago not the more cautious one developed in Switzerland.

I guess that I should ask the VMD to comment.  I'm supposed to be on their bee committee as the SBA representative but haven't heard from them for a while.

One comment on 'standing upwind' when you sublimate OA if that is what you want to do (which now seems to be legal with ApiBioxal).  Be very careful and don't neglect proper breathing protection.  I've had experience of eddies bringing dust containing nasties back to me in a lab setting using a fume hood and outside the same with eddying smoke from bonfires.

Thank goodness one beekeeping forum poster in particular isn't here or we'd be straight into arguments about 40-year old degrees and the means of describing solid in liquid concentrations  :Smile: .

----------


## Pete L

> I guess that I should ask the VMD to comment.  I'm supposed to be on their bee committee as the SBA representative but haven't heard from them for a while.
> 
> One comment on 'standing upwind' when you sublimate OA if that is what you want to do (which now seems to be legal with ApiBioxal).


 They also state when using Api-bioxal for sublimation that the vaporizer be washed/cleaned after every treatment, no doubt because of the extra ingredients gumming it up, that is fine for vaporizers like the
Varrox, but what about the continuous type vaporizers, some that take enough oxalic to treat say 40 colonies none stop, is the equipment going to be ruined or just gummed up solid with toffee i wonder.

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## gavin

Good question, I'll ask it for you.  Though you may have the answer before officialdom comes up with one.

Slightly rhubarby toffee?  Could be a new sideline .....

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## The Drone Ranger

I think I might make a little timer box with a 30 second delay followed by 2.5 mins of regulated 12V ,automatic switch off and then a 15 min further delay before an all clear horn sounds
That should let me retreat to a safe distance and have a cup of tea without the expense of a stopwatch, gas mask,  and anxiety therapy that the people who don't use one deem essential  :Smile:

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## gavin

Excellent idea!  Sounds like a great topic for the next shed (or kitchen) project  :Wink: .

I'll keep dribbling though ..... 

I could put to good use an automatic call to keep me productive after a 17.5 min tea break.

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## GRIZZLY

Thanks for your response Gavin. It's nice to know I'm not just spouting a load ot old tosh.

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## The Drone Ranger

I'll get right on it Gavin 
This time next year we could be millionaires
A 4060B would make a good starting point
http://www.doctronics.co.uk/4060.htm
I have loads of them here  :Smile:

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## fatshark

You're right about the quantities Gavin ... the pre-mix from Thorne's is 3.2% w/v if I remember correctly and that's also the lower figure quoted in the _Managing Varroa_ booklet from FERA. As an aside, I note that this has been recently updated to indicate that Api-Bioxal is licensed in the UK and that generic oxalic acid is not (in any EU country) but is 'tolerated in many countries'.





> One comment on 'standing upwind' when you sublimate OA if that is what you want to do (which now seems to be legal with ApiBioxal).  Be very careful and don't neglect proper breathing protection.  I've had experience of eddies bringing dust containing nasties back to me in a lab setting using a fume hood and outside the same with eddying smoke from bonfires.


I think a point that is largely missed with the discussion of the danger of sublimating/vaporising OA is that the stuff should stay in the hive. If the hive is correctly sealed, with a sponge across the entrance, with the OMF 'closed' somehow and with the usual level of midwinter propolis gumming up all the little cracks, then the beekeeper shouldn't be exposed to evil-smelling clouds of OA ... and if they are, then the bees and mites aren't. This in no way negates the need for both considerable caution AND the correct personal protection equipment. 

If it's like standing next to a bonfire on a windy day then you're doing it wrong  :Wink:

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## Jimbo

Hi Drone you need to get into the 21st century. What you need is an app for your iPhone or iPad that triggers your timer so that you can do your sublimation from the house while drinking the tea.
It can be done I as am currently getting my phone to talk to my camera remotely to take photos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Kate Atchley

For those who enjoy chuckling at my endeavours and talking to the bees: I've learned a few tricks with iMovie (as well as raising Qs this Summer) and the results are on Vimeo! 

This is one ... there's another three there, two very short:  Enjoy!!

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## gavin

Moidart's own answer to the Fatbeeman!  (the slim bee lady?).

Yup, FS, you are right.  The right kind of vaporiser, all the sponging and sealing and whatnot ... and you should be fine.  The trouble is Scottish beekeepers probably still have bent copper pipes and blowtorches kicking about somewhere from a period some years ago when they were widey promoted here.

DR, if your ripple carrying binary oscillator/counter makes cash, it is all yours! 

I'm tempted to look out a Chewing the Fat picture ('ooooooh!' with those wiggly fingers at the chin) for Jim's posh camera set-up  :Smile: .

----------


## Jon

> Thank goodness one beekeeping forum poster in particular isn't here or we'd be straight into arguments about 40-year old degrees and the means of describing solid in liquid concentrations .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwc3VGvlRY

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## gavin

Thought I'd regret that comment.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi Drone you need to get into the 21st century. What you need is an app for your iPhone or iPad that triggers your timer so that you can do your sublimation from the house while drinking the tea.
> It can be done I as am currently getting my phone to talk to my camera remotely to take photos
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Hi Jimbo
I know 
I'm a dinosaur at heart really  :Smile:

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## Wmfd

> Hi Jimbo
> I know 
> I'm a dinosaur at heart really


In which case, the Victorian teasmade here is probably ideally suited to a quick modification to make it also trigger your sublimator as it brews you a cuppa.

Of course, I'm not sure if it is safer by the hive, or by the clockwork and meths powered beast!  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

> In which case, the Victorian teasmade here is probably ideally suited to a quick modification to make it also trigger your sublimator as it brews you a cuppa.
> 
> Of course, I'm not sure if it is safer by the hive, or by the clockwork and meths powered beast!


Look at the quality of workmanship in that teasmaid
I want one  :Smile: 
God forbid we ever see a Chinese version being produced

----------


## fatshark

cover_nature.jpg
Bee research makes the front cover of _Nature_ yesterday ... with evidence that beekeepers have been irritating their spouses for thousands of years by leaving wax residues all over the kitchen. 

Actually, it catalogues the evidence for wax residues in pottery shards from archeological sites and demonstrates that humans have exploited bee products for at least 9000 years (_i.e._ the beginning of agriculture). The absence of residues from anywhere in Britain other than Southern/Eastern England suggests the presence of an ecological limit for honeybees at that time. Nothing in Finland either, though Denmark is well represented. The sites in England with detectable beeswax traces date back to 6000 years ago, suggesting bees were present then (or there were imports  :Wink:  ).

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## The Drone Ranger

Look at what has happened to the teasmade its been hybridised with an alarm clock

teasmade.jpeg
The Victorians new better that's why they didn't have a buggy whip or some such irrelevance on the original

Re the pottery Fatshark could we blame the Romans or was it too early for them ?

----------


## alancooper

Fatshark said "sites in England with detectable beeswax traces date back to 6000 years ago"  - So without email and a good post office, which tribe would have brought their local bees?

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## fatshark

> Re the pottery Fatshark could we blame the Romans or was it too early for them ?


We could blame them. After all, what did they ever do for us? But we'd be wrong ... a few thousand years before then.

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## gavin

> The sites in England with detectable beeswax traces date back to 6000 years ago, suggesting bees were present then (or there were imports  ).


In Scotland we just turned most of the honey crop into alcoholic beverages, then scraped up as much of the wax as we could find to make candles to light those long dark nights  :Smile: .  None left over for sealing pots and jugs. 

Seriously though, folk collected bumble bee nectar on a regular basis.  I have a book describing the practice (wee laddies were usually responsible) in Wester Ross in Victorian times.  Wax is in there too - are the researchers really sure it is honeybee wax in their pot shards?  Same applies to the pollen deposits in containers in archaeological finds, could be bumble bee derived.

----------


## Wmfd

> Look at what has happened to the teasmade its been hybridised with an alarm clock
> 
> teasmade.jpeg
> The Victorians new better that's why they didn't have a buggy whip or some such irrelevance on the original


The Victorian version is a thing of beauty, whereas that's a lump of plastic, probably safer but not an item to take pleasure in.

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## Wmfd

> Seriously though, folk collected bumble bee nectar on a regular basis.  I have a book describing the practice (wee laddies were usually responsible) in Wester Ross in Victorian times.  Wax is in there too - are the researchers really sure it is honeybee wax in their pot shards?  Same applies to the pollen deposits in containers in archaeological finds, could be bumble bee derived.


Is there enough nectar in a bumble bee nest to make it worthwhile? I've no idea how much you'd find in one.

Having said that, I would have thought, perhaps wrongly, that robbing a bumble nest would be less likely to end in tears.

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## wee willy

My Ukrainian friend told me, as a child he and his mates would find a bumble bees nest and quietly insert a straw into the honey cell and suck the thin honey out ! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## GRIZZLY

We used to do that with dead nettle flowers.

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## wee willy

Interesting !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Mellifera Crofter

I cleaned out a bait hive today, and found this nest.  Clearly, they must have had a cosy summer in there:

IMG_6246-2.JPG IMG_6252-2.jpg IMG_6256-2.JPG

Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

Ki Kitta 
Somebody used to advertise for wasp paper on here for an art project
Perhaps Keith who was interested in wasp keeping might be taking notes

This is my first poly nuc to be invaded by mice this year 
After it had already almost given up the ghost so cant really blame them 
The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot 
I think its a bit porous (quality control issues)
poly.jpg DCF100.jpg

The finger just got in the way  :Smile:

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## gavin

> The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot


I know it is a bit of a pain but I think it is always worth painting these boxes inside the feeder and outside the box (where I like to think sometimes).

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Gavin 
I think thats what I will have to do in future
Not much better than softwood hives though if you have to paint them
Have you got quite a few going into Winter ?

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## Pete L

> Ki Kitta 
> Somebody used to advertise for wasp paper on here for an art project
> Perhaps Keith who was interested in wasp keeping might be taking notes
> 
> This is my first poly nuc to be invaded by mice this year 
> After it had already almost given up the ghost so cant really blame them 
> The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot 
> I think its a bit porous (quality control issues)
> poly.jpg DCF100.jpg
> ...


Some leak some don't, it seems that thin syrup is the worst for leaking, but then i suppose it would be, we seal them with beeswax, warm up a saucepan of beeswax and pour into feeder, swirl around and tip surplus wax back into pan, seals them well and fast, plus easier than painting.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Pete
I'm rapidly going off polystyrene  :Smile:

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## busybeephilip

> Thanks Pete
> I'm rapidly going off polystyrene


Yes, it looks like one still has to do a paint job with them, i think that paynes recommend  they are painted which as you say defeats the handiness of the poly box.   Mice are really fond of apideas in storage as they make ideal nesting boxes with an entrance hole of just the correct size which can be easily chewed to enlarge, they even have attacked mine in storage by eating through the back into the feeder.  Have invested in more traps and blue mouse/rat blocks

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## gavin

> Some leak some don't, it seems that thin syrup is the worst for leaking, but then i suppose it would be, we seal them with beeswax, warm up a saucepan of beeswax and pour into feeder, swirl around and tip surplus wax back into pan, seals them well and fast, plus easier than painting.


Excellent suggestion, thanks Pete.  Are there any downsides apart from using up wax?  For example, does it encourage them to set up home in the feeder?

I know that folk use paint sprayers to speed up the job of painting the outsides.  Will probably do that myself for next season.

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## Pete L

Not really had much of a problem with them building comb in the feed compartment, Gavin, say two that have built a bit of comb out of 50, and they are all strong, so often a lot of bees hanging out in the feed compartment, I  just slice off any small bits of comb if it gets in the way and prevents the wooden float from rising with the syrup when filling.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Phil
Aldi had some big plastic boxes so we bought a couple and put all the spare mini nucs inside
Not sure if that will be good enough but the nucs were well scrubbed with bleach first
Mice seem to prefer apideas to keilers if they are given a choice of both which is annoying because they are much dearer to buy
The ones with bees are (mostly) on shelves well above ground


Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Ki Kitta 
> Somebody used to advertise for wasp paper on here for an art project ...
> 
> The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot 
> I think its a bit porous (quality control issues)


I wish I've known about that person, DR.  It bothered me to throw away such a beautiful sheets of wasp paper.

Like Gavin said, I think you should paint your poly nucs.  They're still a lot better than softwood as far as the bees are concerned.

I realised a few days ago that I did not reduce the entrance holes in my Paynes poly nucs, so I immediately turned the entrance disc to reduce it and just hoped that I've not caught a mouse on the inside.  The next day I saw that a mouse had started to nibble at the entrance - but it was on the outside, so trying to get in, rather than out. 

Kitta

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## Calluna4u

ALL poly hive feeders MUST be painted internally (where the syrup sits) to seal them. End of story. Its in the care sheets most suppliers give out with them.

Syrup forces its way between the beads in even the best made boxes, and even if it does not entice wasps to bore into the material it causes mildew to develop and they go grey and black. Applies to all makes.

Our preferred paint for the interiors of feeders is the water based acrylic exterior masonry paint. Surfaces should be clean and dry and not primed.

For exteriors we prefer a good grade of exterior gloss.

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## alclosier

> For exteriors we prefer a good grade of exterior gloss.


Out of interest, why do you favour gloss on the exterior?

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## Calluna4u

> Out of interest, why do you favour gloss on the exterior?


Gloss paint, with the recommended addition of thinners for spraying actually bonds to the surface of the polystyrene and becomes a part of the box. 16 years on from doing the first of them the coat is still absolutely sound. 

Water based paints do tend to flake and get very tired in the end when outside in the weather. Apart from rough handling or rodents a poly box will last for life, and not having to repaint them is a bonus, to us at least.

Not painting them at all IS an option, but they do get very old and worn looking. If that does not bother you then fine. We have completely unpainted and unglued poly boxes still in service since our first experiment in 1997 with no losses of boxes at all, but they look way worse than the painted ones introduced in 1999. The bees are fine in them and will be for many years to come, but they do look grotty by comparison.

Algae grow on the outside of the unpainted boxes, which in turn gets grazed on by slugs and snails. They have rough tongues and take an imperceptible layer off the surface when they do this. Some UV degradation also takes place which makes the surface even more susceptible to weathering or grazing damage. To get this in proportion however, from the rate of loss of external material it would take many many years, I reckon at least 40 or 50, for this to cause the box to fail. The wear and degradation is thus mainly a cosmetic issue.

The mix of colours we use which can look very odd to some is mainly an anti drifting and orientation strategy. Matt paint (oil based for the outsides) should also be fine but we just chose gloss at the outset and have seen no reason to change. 

Most amusing to me was the guy who was very traditional in his ways but tried poly in a 'moment of foolishness'........sadly they did not respond too well to being creosoted. Of course this demonstrated that poly is no good.

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## busybeephilip

> For exteriors we prefer a good grade of exterior gloss.


Not sure if it allowed or not on this forum , but, would it be possible to actually name the brand  of  food grade gloss paint you use for external poly painting ?  I recall trying normal  gloss on a piece of polystyrene before and it melting the poly beads

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## The Drone Ranger

> Most amusing to me was the guy who was very traditional in his ways but tried poly in a 'moment of foolishness'........sadly they did not respond too well to being creosoted. Of course this demonstrated that poly is no good.


Didn't know you could still get creosote Crikey that wasn't a good idea
Still there are lots of interesting compromises that have to be lived with so the benefits of poly hives can be enjoyed
I'm less keen now than when I first bought them

Incidentally the chewed up nuc in the picture sat off the ground on a stand with 8 inch legs
It was bought in Spring this year, used for the first time on 11th July 2015 to make a circle split, and by the start of October three months later looked like it does now

Any box that is designed to house bees you would imagine might be reasonably proof against being chewed by them or their close cousins 
Obviously painting is the answer but perhaps it's better to just buy something more solid or make your own since some DIY is going to be called for in any case 
Plenty time for most folk to do it now Winter is looming

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## prakel

> Still there are lots of interesting compromises that have to be lived with so the benefits of poly hives can be enjoyed
> I'm less keen now than when I first bought them


I've tip-toed around the idea for a long time but not (so far) taken the plunge. Common sense (having spent some serious time living rough when I was younger) tells me that any compromises will probably be a good investment in the bees general well being and health in the long run. I don't need any convincing on that score. 

However in this location, having watched our permanently established mini-plus hives and the comparably sized boxes built from OSB3/timber for ten years or so, I doubt that there would be much if any added benefit to us during the winter and spring. Where I'm sure we would see a real benefit would be during the honey season, perhaps even catching short flows which we might otherwise miss.

An example from this last summer, having been caught out due to other commitments a few boxes were left without their full compliment of frames, while the OSB ticked over nicely with some wild comb started the poly versions actually flourished.

071.jpg080.jpg068.jpg049.jpg

compared to the osb in the same time frame:

057.jpg

Which actually suited our purposes better for queen mating but that's another story of compromise.

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## Calluna4u

> Any box that is designed to house bees you would imagine might be reasonably proof against being chewed by them or their close cousins 
> Obviously painting is the answer but perhaps it's better to just buy something more solid or make your own since some DIY is going to be called for in any case 
> Plenty time for most folk to do it now Winter is looming


Some poly boxes are hopelessly inadequate for purpose and are made with material that is too soft just to get on the bandwagon and extract some cash from the unsuspecting or inexperienced, or even just from sheer ignorance on the manufacturers behalf.

If the material is at all soft don't buy it. Rodents love to chew it up and wasps can just drill through it in no time.

Also responding to prakel.....its precisely in winter that we get a major benefit, with our losses in poly being negligible. Also they outperform the wooden hives at the heather as they carry on breeding full pelt for a little longer than the wooden hives do and we have more bee power in the latter part of a normal heather season. In any given year about 7 of our top 10 places will be poly, and the average at the heather will run at about 8lb per colony higher (Its not that simple either as there will be more colonies in poly above the spring count than in wood, so the truth will be more like 10 or 12 lb more per spring colony than in wood). Even at 8lb in bulk that's an uplift of over £26 per hive, per season, on average........so not long to pay for any perceived failings or lack of durability of poly (not the case anyway). My worst ever rodent damage was a rat attack and they went in through the floors and fronts of wooden hives and ate the whole contents out of over 20 hives, boxes etc all destroyed.

Over the 16 years now of our poly unit I doubt the attrition rate will exceed 3% of all the gear we ever bought. Say 15 years at 25 pounds cash extra per year per colony.....£375.......against about 3% attrition on gear in total.....hive carcase of 4 boxes, roof floor and feeder costs me about 64 pounds......so about £2............its a no brainer. You could lose the lot every 4 years on average and still be ahead, yet they are every bit as durable as the wood.

A bit of rodent damage is a pest for sure, and causes frustration, but it works economically.

and to Philip....sorry...I said GOOD grade...not FOOD grade gloss. Also..if you put too much thinners into the paint and/or use very light and soft poly (like most soft packaging grades) then yes, it can do some poly melting. However, on the correct grade of both poly and paint this is actually the very property that makes the bond. A tiny...microscopic.... amount of the poly does dissolve and mix with the paint and pretty well welds the paint to the material. Done correctly this is not even visible to the naked eye.

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## prakel

> ...responding to prakel.....its precisely in winter that we get a major benefit, with our losses in poly being negligible.


This doesn't surprise me in the least, even in your Glos and Hereford apiaries (where i grew up and our family has kept bees consistantly since the early 1940s) but this odd little corner where I am at present is a world apart and we're even able to winter some surprisingly small wooden boxes without any special attention at all (other than the extra weight to stop them blowing away which I mentioned previously). Winter losses due to anything other than obvious queen issues from the previous summer/autumn are very rare for us. I do watch what our bees are doing very carefully, year round although that's all I can base my thoughts on until I do invest in some new gear (which may be quite soon*).

edit:* The only thing really stopping me at present is an as yet unresolved decision whether to go with swienty nationals (and make full use of the bs combs we've got already) or do the sensible thing and move over to langstroth (and cut down our dadant frames to fit) and convert the bs into stand alone mating nucs. It's not my decision alone...

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## Calluna4u

> edit:* The only thing really stopping me at present is an as yet unresolved decision whether to go with swienty nationals (and make full use of the bs combs we've got already) or do the sensible thing and move over to langstroth (and cut down our dadant frames to fit) and convert the bs into stand alone mating nucs. It's not my decision alone...


LOL...I know exactly where you are coming from on that, and in part its why I never gave up the Smith unit, and probably never will. Remember we run about equal number of poly and wood, and the Smiths represent my roots, and boxes made by my father from wartime tractor packing cases from the USA are still in service today. I came to poly from the position of a sceptic, as I do with almost all new ideas in beekeeping, partly due to 95% of new products or designs of products not actually being an advance or benefit at all.

However....for new gear I would now not go past Langstroth, and standard Langstroth in particular. You can buy fully made up and prewired frames for under a pound apiece if you shop around, even at smallish scales, rendering all kinds of faffing about, which UK beeks seem to love, quite unnecessary and certainly not economic...even if you get the materials free.

As regards wintering small units...against my better judgement, and under pressure from Jolanta, we are trying to overwinter some Keilers this year with some very late mated queens in them. Just an experiment but will see how it goes. I would have had the lot shaken out and stored away in late September myself as we have no real use for very late queens, especially as they have mated at a time when the good colonies had all long since bumped off the drones. Of greater interest are the batch of nucs I made up myself about 7/8 Sept with a bar of brood and bees from each of 3 different hives in each one (so 3 bars of brood and bees) and added queens from the mating unit on 10th Sept.....yet all took and went into winter on 6 frames of bees. Might sharpen my mind about the usefulness of lateish queens if it proves as much of a success as it looks it might be. Ditto some early Oct requeening experiments.

I had a large number of wooden nucs here up until a few years back, and their wintering was very mixed. Yes in some winters we got a lot of them through, in others only a few survived. Deemed it not a viable use of resources and gave the lot away. Poly nucs seem to have been a game changer in that. Now we have 400 of those into winter.....a great safety net in the event of big losses.

Even here the bees in coastal locations do seem to winter better than those inland, though there could be a lot of different reasons for this. I generally think wintering bees up out of valley bottoms and with good air drainage is as important as anything else, but with our number we often end up just having to take what we can get so have a lot of less than optimal spots. I would quite happily try wintering nice strong wooden nucs by the side of the Tay estuary, but know it would be a dubious process 10 miles inland behind the coastal hills that keep the sea air away. In spring however the cold wind off the sea can cause different issues, and our bees there fly less in April and early May than those sheltered. A lot of swings and roundabouts. Wintering small units down where you are, and almost the more south and west you go the better it gets until extremes of wind negate it, should be very possible and to be honest we were at one point thinking of wintering bees in the deep SW to get an early start to spring. Long time ago when fuel and labour were far cheaper.

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## prakel

> In spring however the cold wind off the sea can cause different issues, and our bees there fly less in April and early May than those sheltered. A lot of swings and roundabouts.


No different here; I've mentioned the difference which we see between the sites we have which are perched on clifftops and those a few miles inland before. One of the  issues here is that most springs we see the early flowers held back on the coast while their cousins are doing well inland. At the far extreme there's the example of Gavin's sycamores which seem to flower a couple of weeks before ours on a regular basis.

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## Calluna4u

> No different here; I've mentioned the difference which we see between the sites we have which are perched on clifftops and those a few miles inland before. One of the  issues here is that most springs we see the early flowers held back on the coast while their cousins are doing well inland. At the far extreme there's the example of Gavin's sycamores which seem to flower a couple of weeks before ours on a regular basis.


LOl....I don't know where he sees them!

Actually there are always a few of the sycamores that flower way earlier than others, ditto with late ones, the spread of flowering times is wide with some all set and showing keys, other still coming out, well into June. We have a double grove of them on either side of a road a couple of miles out of town, and its always the same tree that comes first, even in leaf and flowering before most of the rest are even breaking bud. However such single tree sporadics are of no real importance unless you have only a couple of Apideas within flying range. Its the main flowering that counts, and the Hereford area is 2 weeks at least ahead of up here, but in Gavins home patch and mines a good bit inland from him. Each year varies however. E or NE winds really slow our area down, yet are good for Hereford.

I am not surprised we see much that is the same.....the more you look at differences the more you see similarities.

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## Jon

> As regards wintering small units...against my better judgement, and under pressure from Jolanta, we are trying to overwinter some Keilers this year with some very late mated queens in them.


Keilers should overwinter ok, assuming enough bees in them and a winter which is not exceptionally cold for weeks at a time.
Queens were mating well into October this year. Whether they mated well remains to be seen but I have a few double apideas with late mated queens which seem to be doing ok and still have brood.

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## The Drone Ranger

It won't help now but in another thread I mentioned this already
If you are using Kielers for mating and they get too big you can add an extension box with another set of frames
But
If you are overwintering them it means you don't need to split the boxes looking for queens
So
The best plan overwintering is not to use a second set of frames just let them build long combs down through both boxes
You can lift the top box with combs up to inspect bees with care
You are best not to try and lift the frames out individually unless you are moving them on to a nuc or something in Spring

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## Calluna4u

Not even gone down the route of what we will do with them next if they survive. Its just an experiment at this stage and have no plan about what to do with them in spring. I really don't have a role for any ultra early overwintered queens apart from perhaps adding them to a queenless package of bees. I have a few of our best home bred queens in nucs with a breeder 'in a warmer place' who can supply me back fresh mated queens from early April, all bred from our own best stock, and would prefer those to the ones in the Kielers as I am very dubious about drone quality involved as our own drone mothers here had slaughtered their drones by the time the mating took place so it can only have been with the rag tag and bobtail drones of the local area.....which are generally more narky and swarmy (and less productive) than the stock we are selecting. However there is no saying they WILL be poor.

If they cannot winter in a single Kieler then I would say it would be a fail, as we cannot be messing about with things too much. For now they look surprisingly good with a sound but very compact cluster.

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## prakel

> If they cannot winter in a single Kieler then I would say it would be a fail, as we cannot be messing about with things too much. For now they look surprisingly good with a sound but very compact cluster.


Out of interest, if you don't mind, do you have a preference for the size of nuc your queens mate from? Maybe to be clearer, I should say size of comb. If your breeder is who I think he might be I understand that he's now of the oppinion that larger nucs (standard frames) are better. This is something I'm fast coming to agree with myself for quite a few practical reasons as well as a few observational comparrisons which I've made -but don't have any firm data for... yet. Just a 'gut feeling' at present. Of course a trade off may be the numbers which can be kept, healthily, in one location.

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## The Drone Ranger

> If they cannot winter in a single Kieler then I would say it would be a fail, as we cannot be messing about with things too much. For now they look surprisingly good with a sound but very compact cluster.


They will probably get through if their stores hold out

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## Calluna4u

> Out of interest, if you don't mind, do you have a preference for the size of nuc your queens mate from? Maybe to be clearer, I should say size of comb. If your breeder is who I think he might be I understand that he's now of the oppinion that larger nucs (standard frames) are better. This is something I'm fast coming to agree with myself for quite a few practical reasons as well as a few observational comparrisons which I've made -but don't have any firm data for... yet. Just a 'gut feeling' at present. Of course a trade off may be the numbers which can be kept, healthily, in one location.


Firstly...its not the breeder you are thinking of, and the one it is works a bit closer to home albeit still 1000 miles from me. Not a famous breeder like the one you are thinking of and really only produces for me and one other client. If you saw the 'Penguins on a plane' programme.... Its NOT a yellow bee area btw.

Bigger nucs are more stable for sure.......but we got the fastest turnround in Apideas or Swi-bines, and once they were introduced into the nuclei to develop there was no discernible difference between the little boxes or the medium sized ones like Kielers. It would seem though that the Kielers require less intensive upkeep.

Mini plus, which was recommended to us, are too expensive and too many bits and pieces to damage or get lost to my taste. I can set up a full frames nuc for less.  If we are going to overwinter nucs/queens I would actually prefer to do it on full sized combs so spring use or promotion to full hives is simple, not time consuming, and does not require gadgets or convertors.

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## Calluna4u

> They will probably get through if their stores hold out


Jolanta last fed them only a couple of weeks back and they took it readily and are showing sealed stores beside the topbars. Although we bought a stack of extra frames for them they are actually still all on the four frame format rather than the 6.

She will give them another jug of invert into the feeder before she goes home for the winter in about three weeks time. We are only attempting it with a couple of dozen or so (I don't know the precise number, thats her job) so to feed them all will not even take an hour.

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## Jon

Mini nucs of whatever hue should never starve over winter as all you have to do is add fondant in an empty box above the cluster if stores are low. What kills them is lack of bees or a really prolonged cold spell. Having enough bees in there at the start of the winter is probably the most critical factor.
I have been overwintering a dozen or so apideas for a few years now as a bit of an experiment.
Last year I started with a dozen and all were still alive in mid March but a couple were queenless.
At the hobby level having a few overwintered queens in March/April is a great idea to replace any drone layers found in spring.

I am not convinced yet by the mini plus although Gavin and Prakel and MBC seem to love them!
Apideas cost less than £15 from Swienty and that includes the vat which could be claimed back.
The mini plus is a double unit but you can get 2 apideas for that price.
A mini plus used as a single unit is more or less the size of a nuc so for overwintering you could just use a Paynes nuc with standard frames.
I don't think there is any problem with queens which mate from small units as I have had loads of queens which live for 3 years which mated from apideas.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Jolanta last fed them only a couple of weeks back and they took it readily and are showing sealed stores beside the topbars. Although we bought a stack of extra frames for them they are actually still all on the four frame format rather than the 6.
> 
> .


Hi C4u
They are easy to pick up one at a time and gauge the weight (in any weather)   
You probably only need only look at the lightest one or two to see what is going on
I only have 10 keilers going in but even if half that come through it's a bonus
Spare laying queens are always handy even just a handful of them in Spring

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## The Drone Ranger

> What kills them is lack of bees or a really prolonged cold spell. Having enough bees in there at the start of the winter is probably the most critical factor.


Hi Jon
A lot of SBAi folk must have raised a few spare queens for themselves this season 
There is normally a flurry of " eeeek! my queen has gone posts" and "don't panic Captain Mainwaring " replies  all at the tail end 
This year it hasn't happened (probably due to your input)

We should have a poll  :Smile:

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## prakel

> I am not convinced yet by the mini plus although Gavin and Prakel and MBC seem to love them!
> Apideas cost less than £15 from Swienty and that includes the vat which could be claimed back.
> The mini plus is a double unit but you can get 2 apideas for that price.
> A mini plus used as a single unit is more or less the size of a nuc so for overwintering you could just use a Paynes nuc with standard frames.
> I don't think there is any problem with queens which mate from small units as I have had loads of queens which live for 3 years which mated from apideas.


Love them I do, although my habit of tinkering has shown some possible improvements. The first and maybe most important to me is the use of them as single box units (off the top of my head I reckon that they're probably equivalent to two and a bit bs brood combs -but in a much better configuration). Don't get me wrong, I like twin units (when the doors are in the right place) but I've always found the comb fit in the Lyson mps to be a little tight for my liking when used with the division board. But that's just me and I know that others get on OK with them as twin stocks. 

Another is the use of deeper frames but of course that then requires an extension to make the box deeper; full depth frames was the main strong point of the little poly twin mating nuc that Maisemore (and now Park) used to sell. 

For quick mating and moving the queens on to their permanent homes none of this reallly matters but I try to keep the new queens in their mating boxes a little longer if I can. I also expect the boxes to winter as it saves the work of restocking them the following year. The slightly deeper frames seem to make a more comfortable unit as the bees create a band of stores at the top more readily than in the smaller frames where our new queens invariably lay to the top bars. This urge of newly mated queens to lay a lot of eggs in a short period of time is one of the things I've been mulling over with regard to queens mated from units with larger combs. Something is telling me that I'm wasting a lot of potential bee-power when I see queens filling bs combs as quickly as their sisters are filling miniplus combs. 

...Just when I thought that I was getting the hang of this stuff  :Smile: .

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## Calluna4u

> There is normally a flurry of " eeeek! my queen has gone posts" and "don't panic Captain Mainwaring " replies  all at the tail end


Oh there was plenty................sold over 50 queens to people in a panic about their bees being queenless in Sept especially. I cautioned against it, that there might actually be a queen and in any case the prognosis would be doubtful, but they went ahead anyway. Will no doubt hear in spring if they are still alive.

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## Jon

> Oh there was plenty................sold over 50 queens to people in a panic about their bees being queenless in Sept especially.


 I was still getting lots of enquiries for queens right through October.

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## Jon

> Don't get me wrong, I like twin units (when the doors are in the right place)


I use a system of coloured pins in my apideas to let me know what is going on without having to open them every time. yellow pin means it has a queen cell, green pin, has a virgin, white pin, has a mated queen, red pin, has a problem of some sort, blue pin means wrong number of bees. This saves a lot of time when you have checking to do or queens to remove for posting. With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.

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## prakel

> With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.


I find that they work well but there are a lot of little tricks which make them work even better!

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## Wmfd

Worrying day today.  

I spotted a dustbin lorry with a number of Correx signs in it.  Then spent a good bit of time trying to work out whether I could get them home, and how many nuc hives I could knock up from them.

Luckily it drove away before I could disgrace myself.

What have you done to me! 😉

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## The Drone Ranger

> Oh there was plenty................sold over 50 queens to people in a panic about their bees being queenless


Well that was a short lived poll of 2 queen breeders 
Seems things are still the same  :Smile:

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## Duncan

I use the German miniplus, I have about 600 of them.  I made my own floors and frames for them as the manufacturers designs are lacking.  They work well and I overwinter them with 2 or 3 bodies -these can be built up early in the spring and from each overwintered unit I can make 12 to 15 mating units.  So really I only need to overwinter 50 or so.  The smaller mating nucs are very efficient, but I prefer the larger miniplus and even more the 5 frame Langstroth nucs as I think the queens produced from them are better.  
There are a number of things that make a small difference to queen quality, maybe each of them is only an improvement of 4 or 5% and not easy to measure, but when added up they could mean the difference is a 25 to 30% better quality queen.

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## Greengage

> I use a system of coloured pins in my apideas to let me know what is going on without having to open them every time. yellow pin means it has a queen cell, green pin, has a virgin, white pin, has a mated queen, red pin, has a problem of some sort, blue pin means wrong number of bees. This saves a lot of time when you have checking to do or queens to remove for posting. With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.


Thats a good idea think ill adapt this next year, I keep telling people its the simplle ideas that will make you money never mind the big international web companies. ( Whats that got to do with beekeeping I dont know but it sound good in my head  :Confused: )

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## prakel

> I use the German miniplus, I have about 600 of them.  I made my own floors and frames for them as the manufacturers designs are lacking.


I imagine that on a small hobby scale some relatively simple tooling and the time to use it would bring those particular boxes below the cost of an apidea... although the time involved would obviously be the biggest factor for some.

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## Calluna4u

> With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.


Yes indeed. My main reason for not going down the multi unit box route, despite having seen some really excellent and creative gear in Europe.

Often a nuc will need refilling with bees if it failed or was too small to recell it and still be a viable unit by the time the next queen lays. If only one part of a multi hive unit needs that, and the day or two in the dark, do you take the other one in too or miss out the unity establishing spell in the dark? Singles keeps it a lot more simple.

On the recommendation of someone else on here we will have an experimental lot of mini plus...the German ones, not the Polish, next year. However the 6 frame BS nucs are pretty good and I am rather reluctant to increase the complexity and range of different things. Uniformity is efficient and cost effective. Diversity and individualism costs (unless you have a VERY good reason for it).

ps...I really loved some three unit boxes I saw in Italy, each unit of the three being  a three comb one third of a full frame size Langstroth. The three little frames were in a hinged arrangement that, when you needed it, unfolded out into a full standard frame albeit with three panels that you then just placed in a full size box. They were great and worked out at about 15 pounds for the three box unit, including all the frames etc assembled and prewired, painted too ready for use. However, the guy selling them was also a queen breeder on a relatively modest (for Italy) scale. Surprise surprise...he didn't use them..he used single units. Same issue, not all at the same stage, and awkwardness of refilling filed or inadequate units while others carried on fine, and apparently he sometimes ended up with only one of the three doing the business and the others empty.

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## Jon

The Paynes nuc box closed down to 2 frames with an insulated dummy makes a great mating nuc but they are really bulky compared to apideas.
I use a few of these as well as the apideas and they have usually built up enough by the end of the summer to let the last queen overwinter.
In UK conditions I think the target should be 3 queens per unit. Obviously not realistic this year with the summer we just had.

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## Jon

> do you take the other one in too or miss out the unity establishing spell in the dark? Singles keeps it a lot more simple.


That's not as critical as some would have you believe.
If I start an apidea with a ripe queen cell I open it as soon as the queen has emerged from the cell. That could be just a few hours as long as the apidea in not on the site where it has been filled.
If I fill the apidea and add a virgin queen at the same time I open it the following evening as I find a lot of bees will abscond if opened any sooner than that.
With the queen cell, I find the 3 days in the dark recommended by most sources is just not necessary.
If opened before the queen is out of the cell, a lot will abscond. If she is out, they stick with her.

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## busybeephilip

Jon,  Just if you could clarify for everyone your method.

You fill an apidea,

1) add a cell then keep in the dark 3 days then release on the same site as the original bees
2) Add a virgin at the same time, keep in dark then release at the same site
3)Add cell or virgin then release on same site 24 hours later at same site
4) add cell, wait till hatched then release at same site
5) Add cell or virgin and release at different site

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## Jon

There are 3 main methods:
1. fill an apidea and add the virgin at the same time. The virgin is added first and a scoop of wet bees is placed on top. Apideas are filled via the sliding floor.
You can open this one the following evening, ie closed about 36 hours.
2. fill an apidea and add a ripe queen cell.
This is kept closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. 
Check the cell for emergence by removing it and open the door if the queen is out.
3. add a ripe cell to an apidea from which a mated queen has just been removed.
Just add the cell right away. No need for cell protectors. It is very rare for a cell to get torn down.
This one will already be open with free flying bees. You don't get absconding as it has brood present.
You can close it up and move to another site if you want.

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## Kate Atchley

> There are 3 main methods:
> 1. fill an apidea and add the virgin at the same time. The virgin is added first and a scoop of wet bees is placed on top. Apideas are filled via the sliding floor. You can open this one the following evening, ie closed about 36 hours.
> 2. fill an apidea and add a ripe queen cell. This is kept closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. Check the cell for emergence by removing it and open the door if the queen is out.


Jon your detailed posts are so helpful. I think this is pretty much what I've been doing but is it right to follow 1 and 2 – ie fairly rapid opening of the mating nuc – even if the bees were from a neighbouring or adjacent apiary? Or would more time or putting into dark place be necessary then?

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## busybeephilip

> even if the bees were from a neighbouring or adjacent apiary? Or would more time or putting into dark place be necessary then?


Yes, this is my query too

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## Jon

I find it is not necessary to have them in the dark for 3 days.
Where did that all start anyway?
3 days closed up is very stressful for bees.
However, if you open too soon with a virgin queen a lot will abscond even if moved to another apiary.
They go into any hive or mini nuc in the vicinity which has a mated queen in it.
You need some time for the unit to gel but not as long as 3 days.

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## Jon

> Yes, this is my query too


Phil
Tim B brought several Kielers to my apiary a few years ago to get queen cells. He had just filled them elsewhere.
I gave him a few queen cells and when my back was turned he set them out and opened them up. 95% of the bees absconded into my apideas which had laying queens in them. This happened within a couple of hours. The key thing is to keep the mini nuc closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. They are a unit once the queen is out of the cell.

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## Kate Atchley

> Phil
> ...The key thing is to keep the mini nuc closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. They are a unit once the queen is out of the cell.


Gotcha! Thanks Jon

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## busybeephilip

So just to clarify, you use bees from site eg A, wiat till queen hatches then release in the same apairy at site A

My concern is bees drifting back to the parent hive, as you know I move my mating units to different sites

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## Jon

It's better if you fill in one apiary and move to another.
You will always lose some bees drifting back to where they came from.
If you look at what we do at Minnowburn, people bring their filled apideas, receive a ripe queen cell then stack the apideas on a pallet.
Someone goes along the next day to set out the apideas and opens each one up at its station after checking that the queen is out of the cell. 
If the queen has not emerged the apidea is left another day on the pallet.

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## Calluna4u

I bought my first Apideas over 20 years ago. The 'keeping in the dark' instruction came with them, in a written set of instructions, back in those days (early 1990's). Even then it was not 3 days however. 24 to 48 hours was stated, to make sure the nuc achieved unity. I think it was about small numbers of them because it mentioned that you should see them drawing out the comb by then if all was ok, but bigger users don't have time to go opening them all to see the new wax.

The 'in the same site' question I cannot answer as we fill packages with mixed bees in the field as requested by Jolanta and she soaks the bulk bees and scoops out the correct amount (which is surprisingly small) at the breeding shed then after the VQ or cell has been added she stacks them away behind the shed in a dark compartment and puts them out in place the next day or day after.

Don't go thinking I have 20 odd years Apidea experience however.....they were used sporadically due to being too busy to mess around with them, and for over half that time they were stored away in a shed.

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## busybeephilip

As Jon knows, I'm not a great apidea fan myself as i use a smaller unit,  but I wanted to clarify the loss of bees due to drifting back to their own parent hive in a situation where apideas are filled and positioned in the same apairy should i try this next season instead of using a remote site - still not clear on the answer.  Do you move or use the same site Jon?

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## Jon

I try and fill in one place and move to another if I can.

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## prakel

With the twin boxes it helps to have a removable division board, that way if one does go wrong they can be united -but allowed to keep using both doors. Divided later they tend to balance out OK but if they don't the entire box can be spun around. 

I do think that it pays to have them big enough to overwinter without any special faffing around -even if that means taking the division board out and uniting. Keeping the combs alive for splitting the following season (as Duncan) suits my needs better than having a stack of empty boxes to start from scratch each spring.

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## gavin

Some cracking posts here recently, thanks everyone.  Delighted to see the chat between experienced queen rearers of such divergent backgrounds and bee types.  I plan shifting this into a new thread under 'Queen rearing' when I've time.

Here's a question.  I received a (rather bashed) copy of 'Mating Biology of Honey Bees (Apis mellifera)' today from NBB. Koeniger, Koeniger, Ellis and Connor, 2014.  p50 'Weather and timing'

'The minimum temperature for drone flight is around 18C (64F) while for queens it is about 20C (68F).  Strong winds, cloudy skies and rain prevent mating flight activity.  Warm days with blue or partly cloudy skies offer the optimal environment for honey bee mating activity.'

Does that accord with folk's experience?  I know this year we were watching the weather forecasts carefully, hoping for the odd day with semi-decent temperatures and little wind.  Does anyone know is these limits apply to all types of bee?

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## Kate Atchley

If these temperatures and conditions apply to Amm it's a wonder ANY of our queens mated this year before September as the weather rarely if ever reached 20º. I saw a queen out on a recce flight on a gently cloudy day with temperature around 18º. Same conditions for mating itself I wonder?

Good plan to relocate this dialogue, Boss. Never tire of rehearsing the nuc-filling scenarios etc etc. Some day it may all be second nature!

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## gavin

C4U and Jolanta had decent queen mating too at times this summer and their stocks don't have a strong Amm component, so I'm just asking.  My impression was that there may be little or no difference, but I don't know.  Also wondering if the 20C thing isn't right for many bee types, so Duncan may have something to add too.

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## nemphlar

BBP 
I do most of my queen rearing in the back garden where they,re handy. I found if I filled the apideas from brood frames and left for 5 mins a lot of the older bees left and what was left stuck around.

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## fatshark

I don't think those temperature minima can apply rigidly ... I've certainly had (local mongrel with a dash of Amm, 2nd generation perhaps) queens mated when the temperature were appreciably less than 20C. Drones also fly below 18C.

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## Jon

Drones will fly and queens can mate at 15c if they have to but higher temperatures are better.
At 17-18c I see plenty of drone activity and mating flights if it is sunny and calm.

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## The Drone Ranger

> BBP 
> I do most of my queen rearing in the back garden where they,re handy. I found if I filled the apideas from brood frames and left for 5 mins a lot of the older bees left and what was left stuck around.


I think that's right because you get the occasional one where a lot (sometimes most ) of bees go back home but usually they nearly all stay if you get them off of brood frames
I have read about people getting them out of the supers but it never seemed right to me so I don't do it



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## Calluna4u

> I have read about people getting them out of the supers but it never seemed right to me so I don't do it


Depends on when. The perfect bees for making packages or nuc filling are taken from the honey supers during a flow, when the correct age bees are up there drawing wax. However, what is often missed out is that they should be from at least 3 different hives, a mix of bees all shaken in together. This disorientates and confuses due to the scents etc being all over the place, and those bees accept cells virgins and mated queens better than those taken from a single colony....unless they are the same colony the cells or queens came from.

Taken from the nest you get older guard bees and very young nurse bees, plus drones too.....not great if you are trying to at least partially control the mating.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Depends on when. The perfect bees for making packages or nuc filling are taken from the honey supers during a flow, when the correct age bees are up there drawing wax. However, what is often missed out is that they should be from at least 3 different hives, a mix of bees all shaken in together. This disorientates and confuses due to the scents etc being all over the place, and those bees accept cells virgins and mated queens better than those taken from a single colony....unless they are the same colony the cells or queens came from.
> 
> Taken from the nest you get older guard bees and very young nurse bees, plus drones too.....not great if you are trying to at least partially control the mating.


Hi C4u 
Almost every article about making up mating nucs will say its essential not to include drones
I think that applies when you are taking your nuc to a remote mating station to be mated by the drones there
For most folk though the mini nuc is staying in the home apiary so it doesn't matter 
Because they don't think about that folk get all worried about including a few stray drones for no reason

Wax builders would be ideal as you say I would like to capture just those but I'm not organised enough for that  :Smile: 

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## prakel

> For most folk though the mini nuc is staying in the home apiary so it doesn't matter 
> Because they don't think about that folk get all worried about including a few stray drones for no reason


I wonder whether there's also a positive aspect to the general well-being of the nucs if they've got a few drones onboard (even if that means adding select drones from chosen lines)? It certainly mimics, better, the real life of the bee and ultimately I think that's what we should be doing.

That said, exclusion of energetic burly drones, determined to get out, might be a positive thing if the boxes are going to be stored for any length of time before release...

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## mbc

A nice surprise to click on here and have pages of interesting posts to read, top work!

One trick worth mentioning regarding bees drifting back at the same apiary is that bees left queenless for a bit tend not to drift when split. I use this when dividing overwintered multiple brood box mini plus hives for their first cells of the season, by harvesting the laying queen a day or so before the split the bees almost all stick to the brood frames they've been put into a new box on, with very few returning to their original site. I'm not sure exactly why it works, but it does and it enables me to spread the brood frames and bees very thinly, starting some new nucs off with just the tiniest patch of brood and adhering bees.

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## Jon

> I wonder whether there's also a positive aspect to the general well-being of the nucs if they've got a few drones onboard


Apideas which are made up without drones attract a permanent drone population very quickly.
I have seen loads of apideas which have maybe 50 drones in them after a week which were started with none.
They sniff out those virgin queens very quickly.

You need to make sure to get them out if you are using an excluder after the queen has mated or the apidea gets clogged up with dead drones.

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## Jon

> One trick worth mentioning regarding bees drifting back at the same apiary is that bees left queenless for a bit tend not to drift when split.


Never knew that. I'll be giving that a go next year.

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## prakel

> Apideas which are made up without drones attract a permanent drone population very quickly.


Which of course shows that there's little point in the initial exclusion unless it's to reduce stress during confinement. 

There could be a component of mating control implied in the instructions but that suggests that we're taking the trouble to move them to a select site for mating; in which case I imagine that we'd have enough common sense not to need need to be told to keep undesirable drones out. Anyway isn't that better achieved by the glass sided EWK nucs such as BBP uses?

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## Calluna4u

> Which of course shows that there's little point in the initial exclusion unless it's to reduce stress during confinement.


But that's a pretty big point. Overexcited drones are a PITA. Never mind them dying against the small screened areas, they can also void inside the box and if there is a touch of nosema in the gut it will not do the unit any good. Want to buy a queen with an elevated risk (even if marginally) of carrying nosema?

So you have it made up with as few stressed drones as possible, and taking bees from above excluders is reasonably effective at selecting both relatively drone free bees of the right age  for establishing the boxes. Even if working in the same apiary. In that scenario it has no impact on the genetics most likely, but its still not best practice.

Jon's point about them pretty soon not being drone free is not really a negative issue, as by the time they start moving in sniffing out a chance the nuc is open and in situ for mating, so these drones come from the drone pool you are targeting anyway, and its just the same if you are mating at source or at a remote selected site.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I imagine that we'd have enough common sense not to need need to be told to keep undesirable drones out.


Hi Prakel
I think it is in the instructions for people making up mini nucs to be taken to somewhere like Læsø island in Denmark
So if you have an island mating site or something similar then it makes good sense
Elsewhere you can read posts insisting on how absolutely essential this is not to include drones (on occasion they can get a bit aerated)

http://bibba.com/laesoe-2004/
That's just a link to some info about Læsø I'm not sure of the correct spelling as BIBBA have spelled it differently

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## prakel

> But that's a pretty big point.


I don't think that there's any deate about that, not from here at any rate. This chain of thought stemmed from a DR's post querying the standard instructions and their relevance if the mating nucs are staying on site. 

Our mini-plus boxes often start with drones already on board at the time when the first cells are introduced; but of course, other than a rare move to another local site there's never any need to close those boxes (or to put an excluder at the entrance post mating) so it's a very different game plan to what many seem to be playing.

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## prakel

> Hi Prakel
> I think it is in the instructions for people making up mini nucs to be taken to somewhere like Læsø island in Denmark.....


Hi DR, nice link, thanks  :Smile: .

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## prakel

Slight tangent here, I see that abelo are launching a national poly hive (again!) The interesting point is that it's been designed so that the brood chamber can be split into two nucs -possibly the same set up as the lyson mini-plus.

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## Calluna4u

Be sure you are getting what you expect with the Polish origin product. They are often made using a different process to most makers, I understand its often a type of casting rather than a pressure/vacuum moulding.

Not that its a big issue if you know how to handle both, but the product is a bit more fragile than that of some other makers, even though equally hard. Have had some where the outer surface is hard but when they break it turns out to have been just a skin and the beads in the interior, especially in thick and bulky areas, can just be a lot of loose beads that flow out. More 'biscuity' so need more careful handling. Perfectly functional in most situations though.

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## prakel

> Be sure you are getting what you expect with the Polish origin product....


Thanks for that, interesting detail.

For myself, I've already decided that our first poly experiment will be with Swienty gear, I'd also be put off with national kit which didn't share the same footprint as the standard gear -although as I've intimated earlier I'd rather invest in langstroth boxes. ....but, my attention was caught by the possibility of using them as stand-alone twin nucs.

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## Duncan

A word of warning:  The Polish miniplus are NOT compatible with the German ones.  Only a few millimeters of difference, but if makes it very difficult to use them together.  So, use a single supplier only.

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## GRIZZLY

Bees continuing to fly strongly during the warm spells we've been having on a daily basis in the current strong northerly wind stream.I think I might have to start supplementary fondant feeding before christmas this year. I am getting my oxalic acid ready to "bleach the frame tops" - 5ml per frame should do it -nice clean hive ready for 2016 !

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## SDM

> Bees continuing to fly strongly during the warm spells we've been having on a daily basis in the current strong northerly wind stream.I think I might have to start supplementary fondant feeding before christmas this year. I am getting my oxalic acid ready to "bleach the frame tops" - 5ml per frame should do it -nice clean hive ready for 2016 !


Just remember not to mention your " hive Cleaning "  on any vet meds records.

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## madasafish

No law says you MUST treat for varroa..  So you are treatment free.

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## Wmfd

Nothing much happening today with the bees today, far too windy, wet and  generally grotty.

So, a little time spent in the garage, to put another coat on a lift for a WBC I picked up at the association earlier in the year. Just three more lifts, a roof and base to go.

David

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## The Drone Ranger

This is a little video discussing sugar syrup and invert sugar which was quite interesting
If you don't have time just check 8:53 till 10:53

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## Pete L

I assume you mean the bit where she states that no enzyme-catalyzed invert syrup is made anywhere in Europe, yes?

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## The Drone Ranger

That's the part Pete 
I think she is making the case that if feeding has to be done then sugar syrup is the best option
I can't afford the inverted stuff so its the only option in my case  
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## Calluna4u

But its total NONSENSE. Almost ALL invert syrups for bee feeding are made by enzymatic methods, as its a cheaper process nowadays. Acid inversion is old technology. Very old.
I am not trying to sell anything, but if you don't choose to believe me then write to the technical departments at Nordzucker, Sudzucker, or Belgosuc.......other equally good makers exist.

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## The Drone Ranger

Couldn't say on that C4u 
She seemed like a serious scientist to me but I can't say if its right or not 
I remember one of the first things I was shown by the chap I learned beekeeping from was making fondant with cream of tartar 
The rest of the video about the different sugars etc was interesting with the exception of the heckler near the end who was a twit
Could not believe my ears when that woman described boiling old brood combs and feeding the liquid back to the bees

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## The Drone Ranger

I don't read German but this is the bit in English 
http://www.nordicsugar.com/industry/...-invert-sugar/

The method used is hydrolysis but it didn't say enzyme so I looked that up and if they use enzymes them its likely this method

"Commercially prepared enzyme-catalyzed solutions are inverted at 60*°C (140*°F). The optimum pH for inversion is 5.0. Invertase is added at a rate of about 0.15% of the syrup's weight, and inversion time will be about 8 hours. When completed the syrup temperature is raised to inactivate the invertase, but the syrup is concentrated in a vacuum evaporator to preserve color.[6]"

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## Calluna4u

> I don't read German but this is the bit in English 
> http://www.nordicsugar.com/industry/...-invert-sugar/
> 
> The method used is hydrolysis but it didn't say enzyme so I looked that up and if they use enzymes them its likely this method
> 
> "Commercially prepared enzyme-catalyzed solutions are inverted at 60*°C (140*°F). The optimum pH for inversion is 5.0. Invertase is added at a rate of about 0.15% of the syrup's weight, and inversion time will be about 8 hours. When completed the syrup temperature is raised to inactivate the invertase, but the syrup is concentrated in a vacuum evaporator to preserve color.[6]"
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


I have been in two of the factories and shown round and spent time with their technical departments.

One...Sudzucker....were  very irate at the allegations they would use acid in bee food.

All three companies I mentioned are ethical and go to great lengths to provide a good bee food. Also saw the fondant being made. Fascinating. No chemicals there either, just a huge cold roller to initiate the crystallisation of the correct blend of syrup.

They have all been dogged by people going on about acid inversion. Its a story that will not go away for some reason, never mind how false it is.

Probably no-one remembers the problems over 50 years ago with an acid inverted product called Bee Nite.......... desperate dysentery and bee death followed its use. That killed off most of these products as a bee food.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi C4u
I hear what your saying I'm not sure why she said European plants used acid inversion
When you went round did you notice if the description I copied in about enzyme hydrolysis of sucrose looked right 
Apparently the fondant isn't inverted to glucose just straight powdered sugar (somebody told me on the beekeeping forum)
She also says that there is no benefit to the bees from inverting sucrose to glucose and fructose 
The reason invert is popular with bakers is it give a shiny finish to icing and tastes sweeter according to wikipedia

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## gavin

Remember what I told you about scientists!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Remember what I told you about scientists!


Takes one to know one LOl  :Smile:

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## fatshark

Todays news ... off to check how many of my hives relocated to the North Sea in that breeze last night.
_87038462_desmond.jpg
And it's going to be windy again tonight ...

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## Calluna4u

> Hi C4u
> I hear what your saying I'm not sure why she said European plants used acid inversion
> When you went round did you notice if the description I copied in about enzyme hydrolysis of sucrose looked right 
> Apparently the fondant isn't inverted to glucose just straight powdered sugar (somebody told me on the beekeeping forum)
> She also says that there is no benefit to the bees from inverting sucrose to glucose and fructose 
> The reason invert is popular with bakers is it give a shiny finish to icing and tastes sweeter according to wikipedia


Lol...she can say what she likes. If the benefits of good quality invert syrup were not perfectly clear to us....and actually its pretty stark....we would not pay out the extra money.

Also your story about the fondant is also incorrect. Watching it being made was fascinating. 

A super saturated syrup is produced at quite a high temperature.....82% sugars. It is then trickled onto a very large and very slow turning very cold roller. It is trickled on via a wide bar, almost as wide as the roller, which I would estimate as being at least 3 metres wide. As the roller turns and takes the trickled on syrup (it does not really run as the cold immediately raises the viscosity to a near non fluid level) and as the temperature drops it starts to form crystals very fast. Low on the roller a scraper blade takes the already crystallising product off the roller and it falls into a hopper that narrows into a spout with a cut off plate at the bottom. 

This spout is then used to fill the individual boxes of fondant (the blue liner bag is already inside) to the correct weight. The box is then closed up and sealed (the fondant is still only half crystallised and quite warm and definitely a bit runny for using) and stacked on pallets. It is stored for a period (I think it mentioned one to three days) for the crystallisation to complete, then it was sold on.

Fondant comes in a wide variety of grades, and the high gloss stuff is a slightly different grade from standard white fondant.

In the post manufacturing store they had fondant of several well known brands.....all being made the same way in the same factory. Just different packaging.


Sorry...forgot to add.....the manufacturing guys and the lab teams at Belgosuc were very clear about their process, and were always happy to show clients round and answer any questions. Sudzucker had a small team visited Scotland a few seasons back to answer just those types of misinformation. The fact they even operate a significant trial apiary and test their product constantly against all other feed options and natural honey too, and are happy to publish all their results (which on some occasions have been known to favour competitors product, albeit rarely) and again to answer all questions. The lead syrups are all made enzymatically from sugar beet syrup. They are not starch derived. However even starch derived syrups we have tried have, with one or two notable exceptions, been excellent feeds. The sweetness is not actually a function of it being invert per se. Its the fructose glucose ratio that determines that. Fructose is much sweeter than glucose, so the higher the fructose the higher the sweetness.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thank you C4u for that explanation I'm sure you must be right 
Still a bit dear though
You should book into the National Honey show and give a talk on feeds  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Todays news ... off to check how many of my hives relocated to the North Sea in that breeze last night.
> Attachment 2489
> And it's going to be windy again tonight ...


Yes same here Fatshark
The hives have shelter from the prevailing or normal wind direction
If it switches though things can get blown over

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## prakel

> I find it is not necessary to have them in the dark for 3 days.
> *Where did that all start anyway?*
> 3 days closed up is very stressful for bees.


Stumbled on this reference in a section dealing with early wooden mini-nucs:




> ...A ripe queen cell is hung between the frames at the same time and the cover is put in place. The nuclei are then left in the cool, dark room until the third day when they are moved to their locations. The queens will then have emerged from their cells and each nucleus will be a minature swarm wth a virgin queen.
> 
> *'Queen Rearing' by Laidlaw & Eckert 1950*

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## Kate Atchley

> Stumbled on this reference in a section dealing with early wooden mini-nucs:


It must have been the prevailing 'best practice' in 1900s it seems. *Ron Brown* in his 1980 guide *Managing Mininucs*, with delightful subtitle *Honeymoon Flats for Honeybee Queens*, explains Apidea stocking and adding a queen cell, then goes on: 




> "At this stage I put the mininucs in my wine cellar for three or four days, in the dark, in a stable, cool atmosphere .... the back of a garage or garden shed would do (but preferably cool and dark). ... After three or four days the mininucs are taken out of the cellar at dusk, placed on a hive stand with a brick on each and the entrance opened ..."


So this suggests even longer, closed and in the dark.

----------


## prakel

It was also the practice shown in the iwf video *Skep Beekeeping - Work During the Cast Swarm Period* with their mini nucs. Although I often wonder how much of their practice was actually traceable back to the 'old days' and how much was added during the mid twentieth century. Just because they continued to keep bees in skeps doesn't necessarily mean that they stopped adding new techniques gleaned from mainstream beekeeping.


https://youtu.be/Ns2HMtFJRaE

----------


## busybeephilip

> Yes same here Fatshark
> The hives have shelter from the prevailing or normal wind direction
> If it switches though things can get blown over


looks like wed will be a big wind

----------


## Jon

lots of pollen coming in today. Dull weather but 13c.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> lots of pollen coming in today. Dull weather but 13c.


Jon, I've often noticed distinct differences in our bees's behaviours and guessed that, being nearly 200 miles further north, local conditions must be noticeable different at times. Today the temperatures reached about 9º here though there may be different weather fronts on the move.

----------


## Jon

It's still 13c here at 7.30pm. Very mild all day.

http://www.forecast.co.uk/belfast.html

There is lots of ivy still in flower so the bees are bringing in the pollen any change they get.
The bees are still flying from the apideas as well.
Most of my colonies still had brood towards the end of November but I would hope the queens have stopped laying now.
It is a double edged sword as the extra winter bees are very welcome but the colonies have been getting lighter quite quickly.
Some of them are also dropping a fair number of mites so the Oxalic treatment is going to be critical this year.
I reckon they reared at least 3 maybe 4 rounds of brood after Apiguard treatment in August.

----------


## prakel

Not todays news as such, but this comment left on a youtube channel did catch my eye. What an absolute waste of sugar.




> to late for my bees.
> I killed them with anti varroa chemicals. 
> And I fed them with sugar....﻿

----------


## gavin

and bees

----------


## GRIZZLY

Such mindless behaviour.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

If you are buying spirits for Xmas and new year you might want to body swerve Tesco
Checked the price of two things, an Indian Gin and A Swedish Vodka £3.00 more per bottle in Tesco than Asda for the same thing
Horse sense (pie) dictates avoid spending £36 Tesco rather than £30 Asda  (20 % difference) 
No wonder the B's are dissapearing

That aside why did the treatment kill the bees ?

----------


## busybeephilip

> looks like wed will be a big wind


Looks like west coast scotland will be getting hit today around 12pm - more flying hives !

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Yes big wind outside at the moment the direction isn't too bad though 
The gusts are the worrying thing 
Quite fierce

----------


## fatshark

Perfect weather for OA vaporisation ... went round all my colonies. Anything that leaked out got whisked away to Finland PDQ.

----------


## Emma

Terrible weather for beekeeping... and yet someone kindly whisked round my apiary and poured OA vapour into all my hives. Thanks, Fatshark!

----------


## gavin

> Terrible weather for beekeeping... and yet someone kindly whisked round my apiary and poured OA vapour into all my hives. Thanks, Fatshark!


He's a good sort, that fatshark  :Wink:  

Today wouldn't be the day to try trickling unless you placed the hives on their sides first.

----------


## gavin

> Yes big wind outside at the moment the direction isn't too bad though 
> The gusts are the worrying thing 
> Quite fierce


Sat in Vera the Van briefly on returning from an errand and I started to wonder if Volkswagen Transporters blow over in gales.  It was certainly shoogling  enthusiastically.  Perhaps it isn't wise to park her side-on to the gale  at the usual spot perched above the Tay with an uninterrupted view  across to Thorne at Newburgh over 10km away.

Maybe I need a couple of concrete blocks on the roof?!

----------


## Emma

> Today wouldn't be the day to try trickling unless you placed the hives on their sides first.


Genius! I'll do that next time  :Wink:

----------


## madasafish

> If you are buying spirits for Xmas and new year you might want to body swerve Tesco
> Checked the price of two things, an Indian Gin and A Swedish Vodka £3.00 more per bottle in Tesco than Asda for the same thing
> Horse sense (pie) dictates avoid spending £36 Tesco rather than £30 Asda  (20 % difference) 
> No wonder the B's are dissapearing
> 
> That aside why did the treatment kill the bees ?


Try http://tinyurl.com/q4d7cm4 for price comparisons on supermarkets..

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Try http://tinyurl.com/q4d7cm4 for price comparisons on supermarkets..


Thanks madasafish

I could have saved a quid on the Finlandia Vodka at Sainsbury amazingly enough 
The Bombay Sapphire Gin was best at Asda 
Jose Cuervo Especial Gold Tequila was same price Asda/Tesco
The Margarita was only really in Asda
Didn't check the wine or mixers (yet) 


Furious wasted a quid 
Thats my new years resolution sorted
To check the comparison site for everything  :Smile:

----------


## Jon

> Jose Cuervo Especial Gold Tequila was same price Asda/Tesco


That's the only spirit I ever really took a shine to!
Best bought in the corner shop in Mexico rather than Asda.

----------


## gavin

All round to DR's house for a wee snifter on Christmas Eve!

----------


## madasafish

> Thanks madasafish
> 
> I could have saved a quid on the Finlandia Vodka at Sainsbury amazingly enough 
> The Bombay Sapphire Gin was best at Asda 
> Jose Cuervo Especial Gold Tequila was same price Asda/Tesco
> The Margarita was only really in Asda
> Didn't check the wine or mixers (yet) 
> 
> 
> ...


Did I tell you I was on commission?  :-)

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> All round to DR's house for a wee snifter on Christmas Eve!


Lol 
You'll be lucky

----------


## Jon

> You'll be lucky


...to make it home by the end of January

----------


## fatshark

Nothing beats getting a dodgy tattoo after a few glasses of gin/vodka/tequila (or whatever DR has left after Gavin _et al_., descend on Christmas Eve). Has anyone got one of these lurking under their beesuit?
Bee-Tattoo-Designs-3.jpg
Since all the beekeepers I know have a full head of luxuriant hair (haven't I?) anyone of them could be hiding one of these underneath ...
Bee-Tattoo-Designs-23.jpg
That'll teach me to search for 'honeybee image' when preparing a talk  :EEK!:

----------


## GRIZZLY

Anyone got any good ideas for taming fondant blocks ? I'm finding it a right pain - it's so sticky and difficult t cut into manageable pieces,

----------


## gavin

When it is cold it is hard to deal with.  Leave it at room temperature for a day and clean the knife from time to time in warm water.  I leave the blue bag on (bakers fondant) to make handling easier.

----------


## fatshark

Biggest serrated breadknife you can get your hands on.
Clingfilm on opposing faces to stop it fusing back together again.
And everything Gavin suggests.
Of course  :Wink: 

PS Mind you don't cut any extremities off

----------


## EK.Bee

Someone recently was telling me about a commercial bee farmer who used a stainless steel spade to cut fondant
I haven't tried this personally 
I was going to try a cheese wire last year but misplaced it 
washing up gloves or blue nitrile gloves stop things getting too nessy

----------


## Pete L

Warming the hard fondant in a microwave for a few seconds will soften it, obviously not a full block unless you happen to have a large microwave, but cut the hard way in half, then microwave, makes cutting or molding  the rest into smaller pieces very easy.

----------


## Bumble

I use an uncapping knife to cut large blocks and re-wrap with the blue polythene. For small pieces to go into takeaway containers I just pull handfulls of fondant apart and drop it into the box, it levels out in no time. I tried wearing gloves once, but the gloves stuck themselves together and made it a million times worse.

----------


## wee willy

I make fondant 1 kilo sugar 300 mls water . Kneaded then slipped into resealable freezer bags !
With washed and dried hands you can knead/ shape/ store and feed with minimum fuss! 


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## Calluna4u

> Someone recently was telling me about a commercial bee farmer who used a stainless steel spade to cut fondant
> I haven't tried this personally 
> I was going to try a cheese wire last year but misplaced it 
> washing up gloves or blue nitrile gloves stop things getting too nessy


Might have been me.

The spade is not stainless, just new or even very clean.

Couple of things to take note of.

1. If the fondant is a bit hard you can drop the block from height onto a stone or concrete floor and the shock waves passing through the block immediately soften it. 
2. As stated elsewhere, leave the blue wrapper on, and score it all round with a sharp knife on the lines you wish to make the cuts. (Not essential, just makes it easier)
3. Keep the spade in a bucket of hot water.
4. Cut the fondant with the spade. It goes through it like butter.
5. Bag the pieces in HD poly bags.

Ready to go out.

Takes two men a couple of hours (depends on any other difficulties) to cut and bag about a tonne. Cheap carrier bags are best, if the bags are a little tight for size they are far slower to use as the cut face sticks to the bag.

----------


## prakel

Final instalment of the apiary rents for 2015 dropped off, always a satisfying moment but I doubt that it'll seem like the blink of an eye before we're dropping off our first installment for 2016 at easter time.

081.jpg098.jpg115.jpg

....and plenty of honey too!!

----------


## gavin

Lovely work, and nice to see your new avatar in more detail.  The wax bowl is interesting, haven't seen that before.  

I was out this afternoon (in heavy sleet) delivering my rents too.  Just the usual sticky stuff, ling, bell and some of that highly prized local lime honey.

----------


## prakel

Lovely sunny afternoon here. Spent some time with one farmer discussing the masses of daffodils which are already showing yellow.

----------


## fatshark

Nice Christmas trees prakel. I too was out delivering bottled gifts - I'm running out of everything other than the rather odd flavoured clear stuff. That's been an add on ... _"and see whether you like this as well ... a bit of an acquired taste"_

Happy Christmas all.

----------


## prakel

> Nice Christmas trees prakel





> Lovely work, and nice to see your new avatar in more detail.  The wax bowl is interesting, haven't seen that before.


They all originate from a German company 'Hobby Kreation'.  We bought a lot when Thornes discontinued the range and have continued to add direct from the manufacturer. Very high quality moulds and a superb range. 

To be honest we don't get enough use out of them but it's nice to have a wide choice of 'extras' when it comes to distributing the apiary rents; we always do two a year plus the odd jar or comb through the summer. As of 2016 I've decided to add a third 'harvest' installment around michaelmas too. I see paying the rents as an ongoing bonding process where we have chance to speak to the landowners who we might otherwise not see all year. Calculated, but enjoyable  :Smile: .

----------


## fatshark

Just in case anyone is planning on a winter frame building binge (and have a nail gun) ... Amazon have a "Lightning Deal" on a mixed box of Tacwise nails that are in suitable sizes. 4000 in total (15-30mm) for a fiver. Usual price is £8-10 from the same source.

----------


## gavin

Definitely a great price.  My frame building is with Tacwise 180/20mm nails which are not in that pack.  They're not in the Lightning deals but still available on Amazon via other retailers at £3.80 per 1000 which is still a good deal compared to rolling into a local DIY superstore.

----------


## Calluna4u

> Definitely a great price.  My frame building is with Tacwise 180/20mm nails which are not in that pack.  They're not in the Lightning deals but still available on Amazon via other retailers at £3.80 per 1000 which is still a good deal compared to rolling into a local DIY superstore.


Nailfast in Dundee. take in a copy of the internet offer for what you use with you,  and they have invariably had a word in the office and come out and beaten the price. They only do collated or coiled nails for machine use. No boxes of individual nails or pins there.

For pins and loose nails what used to be Fyfe Douglas, 119 Clepington road, Dundee, are your best local bet as they keep zinced pins too rather than just the bright steel (which rust quickly) that others offer.

----------


## gavin

Thanks!  Never thought of them.

----------


## greengumbo

Out sandbagging last night at a neighbours (no sniggering at the back!) and ditches all around the fields up this way are full. No sign of my hives being flooded yet but if this continues........

----------


## fatshark

I thought that had been outlawed in Aberdeenshire? ... perhaps best not discuss this sort of thing on an open forum.

This arrived this morning ... barely recognised it.
File 08-01-2016, 12 14 18.jpeg
but, never fear, normal service will be resumed tomorrow.
BBC_Weather_-_Collessie.jpg

----------


## GRIZZLY

Why can't I get access to the SBA website?. Seems tohave been offline for some time.

----------


## Kate Atchley

The site's been taken down after repeated and damaging hacking/attack. So work is in progress to restore it via a different platform, as I understand it. Not sure how long this will take.

----------


## greengumbo

> I thought that had been outlawed in Aberdeenshire? ... perhaps best not discuss this sort of thing on an open forum.
> 
> This arrived this morning ... barely recognised it.
> File 08-01-2016, 12 14 18.jpeg
> but, never fear, normal service will be resumed tomorrow.
> BBC_Weather_-_Collessie.jpg


"Luckily" the rain turned to snow and it seems to have stopped the floods for now. Like you though we are expecting it to revert to rain this evening. I would not want to have hives in Kintore / Inverurie at the moment.

The sun did make an appearance here for a few hours this afternoon and it was bloody lovely ! Even saw a few intrepid bees venture out then nip back in.

----------


## fatshark

That brief glimpse of sunshine reminded me I'll be grafting in as little as 4-5 months  :Smile:   For those of us who needed the braille version of _"Grafting for queen rearing"_ I discovered these rather trendy goggles on the BangGood site that DR has been advocating in the DIY thread ... _de rigeur_ for any queen rearing course you run in 2016  :Wink: 

8-Lens-10x-15x-20x-25x-Headband-2LED-Magnifier-Magnifying-Loupe-9892G-p-917247.html.jpg

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## fatshark

Fife and Angus beekeepers might be interested in BBC's Open Country on the River Tay which includes discussion of the monks of Lindores Abbey who planted what are now the Newburgh orchards.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> That brief glimpse of sunshine reminded me I'll be grafting in as little as 4-5 months   For those of us who needed the braille version of _"Grafting for queen rearing"_ I discovered these rather trendy goggles on the BangGood site that DR has been advocating in the DIY thread ... _de rigeur_ for any queen rearing course you run in 2016 
> 
> Attachment 2531


Reminds me of Blade Runner with the eyeballs and the spooky little guy



Its raining not training that has my attention 
It's back on again 
(just after I put some tarmac repair down )

----------


## fatshark

> Reminds me of Blade Runner with the eyeballs and the spooky little guy


*Hannibal Chew:* _Don't know, I don't know such stuff. I just do eyes, ju-, ju-, just eyes... just genetic design, just eyes. You Nexus, huh? I design your eyes._
*Batty:* _Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes!_

Great film  :Smile: 

I'm well aware of the rain ... just got in from having my arm down a freezing blocked drain. Brrrr.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

A review of the film raised an interesting question
Was "The attack ships on fire......." speech based on real or implanted memory
When I try and answer that, Confirmation Bias gets in the way, as it does in so many things  :Smile: 

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## gavin

> Fife and Angus beekeepers might be interested in BBC's Open Country on the River Tay which includes discussion of the monks of Lindores Abbey who planted what are now the Newburgh orchards.


Cracking wee programme, all the sites described are within a km or two of apiaries (in one case a planned apiary) of mine.

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## Mellifera Crofter

My bees floated up and down the Deveron.  I'm gutted, and feel very, very guilty because it was my fault.  I should have moved them long ago.  I had moved half of the apiary, but left six hoping to find a good site nearby on higher ground, but left it too late ...

When I arrived yesterday at the apiary, the site was empty!  I found two hives on their sides upstream in the middle of a field (because the river just there was a huge whirlpool), and three downstream, over a wire fence and up a hill.  Those three were still strapped to their stands.  Two of them landed upright, with gravel bags still in place, and a tall one got trapped on the fence - but I lost one colony.  All the bees in the five surviving hives are alive - but I'll find out in spring whether the I lost any of the queens.

The two on the field are back home with me now, but the three on the hill are still there.  The local farmer will help me to move them once the ground has dried up a bit.

Kitta

IMG_20160110_110737.jpg IMG_20160110_120622.jpg IMG_20160110_143220.jpg IMG_20160110_143406.jpg

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## Calluna4u

Had a bad flood incident about three years back when over 40 got washed away and were mostly stuck in a wood a little downwind (they floated and the wind pushed them that way). It was amazing how many survived. Don't give up on the missing one yet....it may well turn up. At this time of year they should have been in tight cluster and the cold water will just have made them go even tighter.......so I would bet the majority come through remarkably fine. Being poly is the crucial positive here.....wood would probably have lacked the buoyancy.

Was up at Monymusk yesterday checking the wintering groups, and all were fine. Not even a dislodged roof, and every single one we checked was just fine and looked just perfect for the spring to come.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks C4U.  I'm going back tomorrow to search some more for the lost colony.  Compared to forty colonies, I was lucky I had only six colonies there and found five of them.

----------


## gavin

Hope it goes well Kitta.  They can be remarkably resilient.  I've had gales blow hives right over, scattering boxes and leaving exposed frames upside down.  They still survived.

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## greengumbo

Wow Kitta ! Glad you got the five back and I'm sure the sixth will turn up. I never saw the Deveron on the news last week, it was all Port Elphinstone and Ellon. 

Good luck.

----------


## greengumbo

Quick question....

I cut comb heather honey from about 40 super frames last year by hand and realised last weekend I still have the frames with the remainder of the comb / honey in the freezer. 

Do you recommend I remove the remaining comb and melt the wax / scrape frames and replace with new foundation ? Or if I give the bees back the frames as they are with big gaping holes in - will they fill the holes with new comb in Spring ?

----------


## fatshark

I'd alternate them with drawn comb and would expect them to fill in the holes. It would be similar to alternating foundationless frames with ones primed with foundation ...

Of course, they probably wouldn't  :Wink:

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks all.  I went back today and found the last colony about a kilometre downstream washed up on a bank with its stand (and gravel bag) buried in the flood debris - and the bees are alive and well!  I dug the hive out and got it standing upright, and gave the bees some candy.  The farmer will help me to move this hive and the other three still on his land when the soil is drier.  Both I and my bees were extraordinarily lucky.

Perhaps the reason you didn't hear about the Deveron flooding, Greengumbo, might be that it was a a fairly local problem near the gorge by Alvah bridge.  There was just too much water to get through the gorge and it caused a backwash.

Kitta

IMG_20160112_135818.jpg

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## madasafish

So sorry to hear of your flooding Mellifera.   Hope your bees survive OK..

I was brought up in Macduff and know the Alvah bridge well - my uncle lived in Alvah village...

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks, Madasafish.  As I said, I was so lucky to have found them all alive and well.  So, as a local lad, you know how lovely the Alvah bridge area is - also in terms of forage for the bees.  I'll have to find a new, secure site for them nearby.

Kitta

----------


## madasafish

> Thanks, Madasafish.  As I said, I was so lucky to have found them all alive and well.  So, as a local lad, you know how lovely the Alvah bridge area is - also in terms of forage for the bees.  I'll have to find a new, secure site for them nearby.
> 
> Kitta


Some nice (expensive) houses on the Alvah side of the bridge when I was there last.. Lots of pasture for horses IIRC.. High enough up to be free of flooding! 

I used to cycle there as a kid - from Macduff  - and watch the salmon from the bridge . Idyllic spot - on a warm sunny day.

----------


## Bridget

Glad you got them all back Kitta and good luck that they come through OK


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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Bridget. Yes, I'm relieved and impressed by their survival.
Kitta

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## Neils

First peek at some of mine for a while last weekend to top up the fondant.  2 of the 3 are still going, one was touch and go as a Nuc to begin with, inevitably they were quite nice bees and it's the buggers that are still going. One more site to check, but that was a combined hive packed with food so less worried about that one.

----------


## Bridget

Not managed to do the OA yet as too warm before Christmas and when we came back at the beginning of Jan it's been too cold or wet.  One of the disadvantages of a bee house it that they have a bit further to fly home when disturbed so raining is not good.  However meant to be warmer and dryer today so was thinking of doing a trickle today.  Any advice to what you do when you have got brood and a half?  Do you just trickle both boxes if there are two clusters?  


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## Mellifera Crofter

I've never treated my bees with oxalic acid, Bridget - so I can't give you any advice.  Did you treat them today, and did the cluster stretch over both boxes?

----------


## madasafish

> Not managed to do the OA yet as too warm before Christmas and when we came back at the beginning of Jan it's been too cold or wet.  One of the disadvantages of a bee house it that they have a bit further to fly home when disturbed so raining is not good.  However meant to be warmer and dryer today so was thinking of doing a trickle today.  Any advice to what you do when you have got brood and a half?  Do you just trickle both boxes if there are two clusters?  
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


We treated all our Association Apiary with Oxalic Acid solution Saturday. Where they are on brood and half/double , and there were bees in teh bottom box, we treated each box.

(As a Langstroth Jumbo user, I think brood and half/double is a pig's ear -I hate lifting weights - back-  but needs must.....:-)

----------


## Bridget

> I've never treated my bees with oxalic acid, Bridget - so I can't give you any advice.  Did you treat them today, and did the cluster stretch over both boxes?


Well the brood and half were not clustered.  They were all over both boxes.  Obviously it's Fraser who does the bees now so I didn't see them but he said the brood &1/2 were very full and busy although they haven't touched much of the fondant.  They did go in with a lot of stores but the 1/2 seems light.  My worry is that the brood box bees can't or won't get up to the fondant which is above the 1/2, and this is why they are all over the place.  Still not much we can do now just have to wait it out. Other hives good though one dummied down hive is only about 3 to 4 frames.  That's the only wooden hive I have. 



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## Bridget

> We treated all our Association Apiary with Oxalic Acid solution Saturday. Where they are on brood and half/double , and there were bees in teh bottom box, we treated each box.
> 
> (As a Langstroth Jumbo user, I think brood and half/double is a pig's ear -I hate lifting weights - back-  but needs must.....:-)


Ok well we did that too - treated both boxes, so we got that right! Thanks


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## prakel

> Well the brood and half were not clustered.  They were all over both boxes.


If I can be excused for briefly drifting off topic, this is just the point I was trying to make a couple of weeks back when someone with dadants was enquiring about building shallow boxes to fit his nucs... If you overwinter a colony (or nuc, in his case) on brood and a half without an excluder (half on top, where it belongs of course) you've got an easy, ready made split as soon as queen mating is viable because even at an early date the bees will be across both boxes if they're any good at all.

----------


## Bridget

> If I can be excused for briefly drifting off topic, this is just the point I was trying to make a couple of weeks back when someone with dadants was enquiring about building shallow boxes to fit his nucs... If you overwinter a colony (or nuc, in his case) on brood and a half without an excluder (half on top, where it belongs of course) you've got an easy, ready made split as soon as queen mating is viable because even at an early date the bees will be across both boxes if they're any good at all.


We were just talking about what we would do with the brood and a half when it got to spring . (We've not had b+1/2 before) and I said I thought we should split it, ensuring the queen is in the bottom half and the other 1/2 ,would make their own queen.  I understand the problem is that it leads to a very slow build up but I suppose as long as all the bees didn't die out before she was mated and laying it should be OK and presumably if it got a bit light we could top up with some bees or a frame of brood from one of the others hives. Anyway up here in the highlands we would not be getting any local queens until late June.  I had not thought about waiting till there were drones about, silly billy meme.  Thanks for that Prakel, very useful.  


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## prakel

> I understand the problem is that it leads to a very slow build up


I should mention that I'd personlly add a ripe cell. I've done plenty of walk-away splits and come to the conclusion that the really successful ones, the one's which get the method a good name in some quarters, are more often than not the ones which soon afterwards supercede their new queen. I've seen this too many times to think that it's just an occassional fluke. Sure some emergency queens are OK but I reckon that a lot of them are little more than stop-gap 'fillers' till they get chance to raise a better one. _Are_ bees that intelligent? Probably not but even so that's how it often appears to work out, for whatever reason. I think that it probably takes a very high degree of observation based timing (or sheer luck) to split two boxes and get a really good new queen as the result.

----------


## Bumble

Nothing to do with bees, but I did get a little excited today when I read an email telling me I was due a tax rebate of almost £1,000.

It's a pity the email address and teh weblink didn't match HMRC's address, so sent if off as a reported phishing attempt.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi Bumble 
My favourite was when I was offered a well paid job as a Secret Shopper 
Better still it was in New Zealand
I didn't get a reply when I asked if travel expenses would be covered
Pity I was looking forward to that  :Smile: 


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## The Drone Ranger

Bad wind
Possible "Where are we Toto ?"  moment with hives carried off by the tornado 

Two double nucs blown over but they were well strapped so stood them up again easily

Phew!

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## Mellifera Crofter

Floating and flying bee hives. I'm glad you didn't rely on stones to keep the hives down, John, and that the bees are OK.
Kitta

----------


## The Drone Ranger

They were well strapped up thank goodness
Don't you use Oxalic then Kitta ?

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

No, I've never used Oxalic, John.  I'm probably lucky in that my bees have hardly any varroa at all, or perhaps the Apivar keeps them in check.  It's expensive, but it's good.  One treatment, and then that's it for the next year. The two recent threads on Oxalic goes right over my head, and I hope it stays that way!
Kitta

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> No, I've never used Oxalic, John.  I'm probably lucky in that my bees have hardly any varroa at all, or perhaps the Apivar keeps them in check.  It's expensive, but it's good.  One treatment, and then that's it for the next year. The two recent threads on Oxalic goes right over my head, and I hope it stays that way!
> Kitta


I like it as well
One friend who is getting on a bit used to ignore varroa (not good)
But he uses the Apivar now mainly because its so simple and has only 4 hives to treat

Made quite few frames up today with W but it was perishing cold and the wax was very brittle
Still, nice to get back into swing for the new season
I discovered how slow I am frame making 
I blame the weather  :Smile:

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...The two recent threads on Oxalic goes right over my head, and I hope it stays that way!
> Kitta


Two recent threads GO over my head. Sorry!

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> I discovered how slow I am frame making 
> I blame the weather


Better that than mangling your English - and I can't blame the weather for that.
Kitta

----------


## madasafish

> I like it as well
> One friend who is getting on a bit used to ignore varroa (not good)
> But he uses the Apivar now mainly because its so simple and has only 4 hives to treat
> 
> Made quite few frames up today with W but it was perishing cold and the wax was very brittle
> Still, nice to get back into swing for the new season
> I discovered how slow I am frame making 
> I blame the weather



Made up 20 Lang frames and wired them - leave wax till last.

Frozen fingers and some blood where I pricked my thumb..(did not fall asleep   as I am no Snow White, more like a larger dwarf......)

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Hi madasafish
do you mount sheets of unwired wax on the wired frames then ?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick
I have a feeling Snow white ate an apple but I get the drift
Sleeping Beauty ,Rumplestiltskin and the Handsome Prince
Shrek jumbled them all up with bears gingerbread men and porridge
Mike Myers should answer for his crimes against European folk mythology

----------


## SDM

I love my brad pusher, I sit making frames on my lap watching TV which keeps hands and wax a lot warmer.
Its a fair bit quicker although you still need a hammer for the occasional one that won't push through a knot.
Doesn't stop the odd thumb prick though.

----------


## madasafish

> Hi madasafish
> do you mount sheets of unwired wax on the wired frames then ?
> Or have I got the wrong end of the stick
> I have a feeling Snow white ate an apple but I get the drift
> Sleeping Beauty ,Rumplestiltskin and the Handsome Prince
> Shrek jumbled them all up with bears gingerbread men and porridge
> Mike Myers should answer for his crimes against European folk mythology


I actually use wired wax as well... sounds silly but it's easier to insert in frames and about 10p per sheet more than unwaxed. I know I should embed the wire in the wax but don't bother as my bees seem happy to do it for me... eventually..

I watch too many movies so my children's stories get mixed up in my memory.

Anyone want a good brain? Hardly used

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> I love my brad pusher, I sit making frames on my lap watching TV which keeps hands and wax a lot warmer.
> Its a fair bit quicker although you still need a hammer for the occasional one that won't push through a knot.
> Doesn't stop the odd thumb prick though.


My pusher slipped one day and went though my thumb nail of the other hand
I still use it but I'm a bit more careful now :Smile: 

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## gavin

Thankfully I haven't yet found a way to puncture myself with the Tacwise electric nail gun but there are plenty of opportunities ahead before the season goes mental.  I recently ordered 2,700 sheets of foundation, my best estimate for the season.

----------


## fatshark

:EEK!:  I made up ~250 frames last year and it nearly killed me. 

Respect  :Wink:

----------


## gavin

Haven't made one yet!   :Smile:   Saving it for a rainy day .... or fortnight.  After I get the boxes prepared and painted.

----------


## SDM

150 boxes to paint plus frames to assemble. I paint myself into the bedroom each night ( its a good job I'm single) hoping they're dry enough to move in the morning


IMG_20160123_223007.jpg

----------


## Calum

> Thankfully I haven't yet found a way to puncture myself with the Tacwise electric nail gun but there are plenty of opportunities ahead before the season goes mental.  I recently ordered 2,700 sheets of foundation, my best estimate for the season.


wow Gavin, thats alot of foundation. 
Enough for 135 colonies on 20 frames?? - Are you going full time beeking? 
For my nucs I started adding some frames with only half a sheet of foundation last year. 
Works quite well. - And since foundation is now 18€/kg here I will be doing it again this year!

----------


## mbc

I've already furnished ( put the boxes together, made up the frames, wired them and waxed them with homemade foundation) the lions share of 120 supers this winter.
Nail guns for frame assembly are a great time saver, I still have a hammer and pins handy and always use a rampin for securing the top wedge. I'll soon be finished on supers and ready to move on to broods, the radio and plentiful cups of tea are my friends in the winter.
Also oav'd my bees, over 200 of the buggers looking pretty good and potential survivors, fingers crossed, some on the light side so will be going with fondant for the next round, plus a slap and slurp of pollen sub and syrup for those on osr, starting mid month barring necessary checks after gales.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Glad the Tacwise is working for you Gavin , I just couldn't get good results with it. I much prefer my compressor and pneumatic brad gun. i can use pins and staples with this.

----------


## fatshark

My Tacwise does staples as well ... which are the bizzo for putting together floors, split boards etc. And, although I prefer to screw and glue them together, I've used 35mm staples for boxes as well.

Gavin ... _"saving it for a rainy day"_ ! ... ~200-300% of the 100 year average December rainfall in our area. How wet do you need it?

monthly_rainfall_2015-12_anomaly_1981-20101.jpg

I've developed syndactyly ...

----------


## busybeephilip

> 150 boxes to paint plus frames to assemble. I paint myself into the bedroom each night ( its a good job I'm single) hoping they're dry enough to move in the morning
> 
> 
> IMG_20160123_223007.jpg


Reminds me of those hoarding TV programs !

----------


## gavin

I'm expecting a rainy Feb and March too  :Stick Out Tongue: .

The delay is thanks to being occupied on a gainful project in the darker months which is going to fund the next phase of bee empire building.  Yup, I was made redundant about a year ago to the day and decided to go for it.  Roughly a threefold increase in stocks in that awful summer last time.  Could have been about fourfold in a better mating season.  9 overwintered last year (2014-2015) and 12 purchased from two forum members -> about 60 now.  Fingers crossed of course.  Hoping for another threefold increase this coming summer, with current plans for 90 full boxes and the rest in poly nucs for propagation and sale.  

Your Tacwise, John, was great while it lasted (thanks!) but had a terminal jam in the nozzle that I couldn't fix and the new one seems much better behaved. 

I recognise SDM's indoor painting and retreating to bed to hope they'll be dry in the morning.  Before long I hope to use a friend's under-used garage to scale up a bit.  One of my very kind bee hosts is planning building me a workshop and honey house before the season gets too advanced so things are looking good for the future.

----------


## Greengage

Good luck with the project, I see were having the first of our conferences over here this weekend in Ireland on native bees in Athlone looking forward to attending and listening and asking questions of bee keepers. When my stand dries i will post pictures of my token attempts at hive making and nuc buildiing, painted the stand two weeks ago with Tounge oil and its still not dry me suspects something is wrong it is now inside with temp increased to try and dry it out.

----------


## GRIZZLY

I think you will find Tung oil dries by oxidation similar to boiled linseed.I used to use it in the days when I made bespoke furniture for a living and clients wanted a "natural" finish.

----------


## fatshark

If anyone is looking for a beekeeping training course in the Heathrow area then check this out ... and, if you're living in Scotland and are considering it you can also probably afford to fly down there in your LearJet for the day  :Wink: 

I'll happily undercut their prices by, say 10%, if you're prefer to stay in Fife ... and who wouldn't?  :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> If anyone is looking for a beekeeping training course in the Heathrow area then check this out ... and, if you're living in Scotland and are considering it you can also probably afford to fly down there in your LearJet for the day 
> 
> I'll happily undercut their prices by, say 10%, if you're prefer to stay in Fife ... and who wouldn't?


must be a scam

----------


## fatshark

Certainly the last line of my last post was  :Wink:

----------


## busybeephilip

looks like a bargain

----------


## Jon

I could even discount those prices by 15% and provide sandwiches as well.
I wonder are there enough people out there prepared to pay out money like that for a 1 day introduction course?
Maybe in London but certainly not in NI or Fife!

----------


## Jimbo

They must be having a laugh
I'll do it for 20% less, arrange a 3 course meal plus drinks for the participants.
If they don't have a tutor lined up yet I'll do that as well ( if they pay me 2k per day plus my flights down) 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Jon

I'll do all that and also give every course member a free nuc at the end of the day. After all, they will be fully equipped to manage a nuc by 5pm.
Should still be in pocket by a few thousand.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

I can do the whole thing give them a Mann Lake national 
hive with 2 supers and  bees
Plus a trip on the Orient Express thrown in

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## fatshark

> Plus a trip on the Orient Express thrown in


Presumably not this one ... £6340/person ... 

Or perhaps it is? They've sold out  :Wink:

----------


## fatshark

Took this photo yesterday to illustrate a talk ... this is what £11 buys you if you're after oxalic acid-based treatments ...

CaXvTt9W4AAdBrK.jpg-large.jpeg 

This isn't a 'guess the weight' competition ... I'll give you those ... 2.5 kg and 35 g

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Calum

is the bucket pharma quality?

----------


## fatshark

Probably not pharma quality ... but the same purity (99.6%) as sold by the beekeeping suppliers here. The pharma-grade stuff starts at about £16 for 100 g.

----------


## gavin

And, of course, Api-Bioxal is only 88% pure  :Wink: .

----------


## fatshark

Pedantically incorrect my dear Watson ... the silica and glucose in Api-Bioxal are very pure indeed  :Wink: 
Happy Friday ...

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Presumably not this one ... £6340/person ... 
> 
> Or perhaps it is? They've sold out


Or this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/jo...ternative.html
there is a £125 option for the likes of me  :Smile:

----------


## busybeephilip

Think I'll stick to cruising ....rod and bait ..... on strangford lough

----------


## The Drone Ranger

this article was linked out from one of my incoming mail(ads)
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Better day today so some superficial checks on mini nucs and Paynes
One Paynes nuc expired  :Frown: 
3 Kielers and one Apidea gone to heaven (possibly hell for the apidea)
9 Keilers left mostly doubles

Spent a while with big bucket of hot water cleaning the dead outs
Must say the Apidea was slightly easier to clean 
(If only they weren't so tasty to rodents and dear to buy)
All 4 of the dead ones had food in the compartment but only one had any food in combs
Even in a mild Winter it seems stores actually sealed in the combs is the only reliable food source

The double Keilers only have the 6 frame bars but the bees have been allowed to extend the frames down through the lower box
That gives them a much bigger uninterrupted comb space

Empty ones are clean and dry now so they will be joining the rest in some rat/mouse proof storage boxes

----------


## The Drone Ranger

New Mann Lake suit arrived and fits so that's one job done

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Feckless Drone

> New Mann Lake suit arrived and fits so that's one job done
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Was one job to join your local association? AGM coming up! And looking for mentors for beginners.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Good point I did join the SBA again so reeling from that £30 
I am not a qualified instructor and might be a bad influence on the new beekeepers  :Smile: 
Presumably FD its the ESBA 
when is your AGM ?

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## gavin

> Good point I did join the SBA again so reeling from that £30 
> I am not a qualified instructor and might be a bad influence on the new beekeepers 
> Presumably FD its the ESBA 
> when is your AGM ?
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


7 March at 7:30.  Watch out, we're still looking for a candidate for the new vice-president  :Wink: . 

Whether or not you join (the £10 is quite some investment .. ) you are hereby invited to one of our summer meetings which will be to C4U's (and Jolanta's) queen mating operation.  We haven't yet agreed a date but it is likely to be a Saturday in June or thereabouts.  Bring W too if you like she'd be most welcome.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Thanks Gavin that sounds like a good day out
£10 thats OK for the idle rich like yourself 
I will have to check the piggy bank

Does the Vice president get a big hat?
hat.jpg
Or maybe one of these
images.jpeg

and do his family get a spear proof vest  :Smile: 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ew-Guinea.html

----------


## Feckless Drone

> Does the Vice president get a big hat? and do his family get a spear proof vest 
> [/url]


DR - Any kind of hat you want and we can measure you up for a correx body armour top. But! I would not want you to be disappointed. E.S.B.A. are not as raucous a bunch as those PNG fellows and given that we hold the meeting in the Methodist hall then some of those activities described would be frowned upon.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> DR - Any kind of hat you want and we can measure you up for a correx body armour top. But! I would not want you to be disappointed. E.S.B.A. are not as raucous a bunch as those PNG fellows and given that we hold the meeting in the Methodist hall then some of those activities described would be frowned upon.


I need Harry Potters invisibility cloak  :Smile:

----------


## GRIZZLY

Bees seem to be flying for 10 minutes to half an hour most days.The afternoons seem to be quite sunny with the temperature going up to about 10 deg for a while but the northerly wind soon puts paid to flying when the temperature drops rapidly.

----------


## Emma

Got to the apiary mid afternoon today. Sunny, calm. Sheltered spot. The air was humming with bees, not the droning noise of urgent cold-weather flying, but an upbeat foraging vibe. First time I've heard that sound this year. Within a few minutes I'd seen pollen going into 7 out of 8 hives, and what looked like a cohort of new bees orientating outside one of them. Lovely.

----------


## Greengage

Looking forward to March 7th to see if you get your hat or if you fly with the feral swarms and set up your own colony. :Smile:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Missed it !!
Oh well 
Todays little pile of infuriating annoyances included trying to make a donation to the rowers who were on breakfast TV
Google search took me to Virgin Giving, but a read through the small print finds that Richard Branson not content with his Carribean Island , Spaceships, Balloons and buck teeth also wants to skim off 2% of my donation and bombard me with junk mail 
On to the next one -- no thats even worse they intend to skim off 5%, presumably they don't yet have a Carribean Island or a spaceship (yet) so they need the extra to fund them
Pretty sure they will still have buck teeth and no chins though
Grrrr!!!

----------


## Greengage

Looks like your not eusocial. :Embarrassment:

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Looks like your not eusocial.


Not if it means handing charity money to sneaky skimming B'st who hide it in the small print
Oh no! no honey badger worth his salt would swallow that

I've had arguments on the phone with the evasive gits
Even if you ask _who do you work fo_r they will say 
"Oxfam" (or whatever)
Then you ask _well who pays your wages ?_
"Oxfam" they say
So you are on Oxfam's payroll
_"Not exactly we are an agency collecting on behalf of Oxfam "_ 
Right so you *are* just a bloody parasite skimming money off the top (best to take a conciliatory approach I feel)
 "_I am NOT"_
Agument begins ending 20 mins later with
well you can F off and don't ring my Fn phone again you arsol

p.s. GG I had to google eusocial and thats gone on todays list of minor irritations as No12

----------


## GRIZZLY

I've just steamed 15 pounds of wax from a load of "old" frames , leaving them very clean looking and wax free . I'm wondering if they can now be regarded as disease free and suitable for re-use after waxing with new foundation. I thought of using acetic acid on them - perhaps this isn't necessary but, with nosema on the increase I want to get my hives as hygenic as possible, The frames were steamed in spare plastic brood boxes and I guess the steaming should render them hygenic as well.Again further cleaning with bleach might be necessary ??.

----------


## greengumbo

> I've just steamed 15 pounds of wax from a load of "old" frames , leaving them very clean looking and wax free . I'm wondering if they can now be regarded as disease free and suitable for re-use after waxing with new foundation. I thought of using acetic acid on them - perhaps this isn't necessary but, with nosema on the increase I want to get my hives as hygenic as possible, The frames were steamed in spare plastic brood boxes and I guess the steaming should render them hygenic as well.Again further cleaning with bleach might be necessary ??.


I did this and then since I didnt need the frames and brood boxes for a while stuck acetic acid on a nappy and stuck them in large bin bags to kill the spores etc.

Checked my hives today for the first time this year and stuck pollen patty / light syrup on them. Poly hives way ahead as usual but wooden hives not bad either.

----------


## Kate Atchley

*Visit to Bee Farmers in Calabria, Italy*
John Freeman on the FB Queen Rearing UK page, is inviting folk to join him visiting "two commercial beekeepers" in the south of Italy, Calabria. 

Isn't that where SHB was found and not yet reliably cleared?

No prizes for guessing my thoughts on this venture!

----------


## Calluna4u

> *Visit to Bee Farmers in Calabria, Italy*
> John Freeman on the FB Queen Rearing UK page, is inviting folk to join him visiting "two commercial beekeepers" in the south of Italy, Calabria. 
> 
> Isn't that where SHB was found and not yet reliably cleared?
> 
> No prizes for guessing my thoughts on this venture!


I know nothing of this trip or the guy concerned, but know there are some very good and ethical queen rearers out there on the northern fringes of the SHB outbreak that would be well worth visiting.

Apicoltura 2 Ponti, not far north of the core of the outbreak, would be a real treat. I have had some of their carnica queens in the past and they were brilliant for Scotland, their mothers coming from the Alps.

To avoid these people because of an affliction that is not their fault is, IMO, just not fair, and to dismiss them because of SHB is not sensible. They are really hurting as they have been shut off from their markets. Many had really expensive breeder stock from northern Europe and Scandinavia so they could supply northern clients (as far up as Finland)  with northern bees in early season, and now its a dead loss for them. They do not have SHB themselves but cannot now sell out of the quarantine zone. Shunning them shows a lack of solidarity.

As far as I can see no-one is proposing to be bringing bees back, and the Italians themselves have been really good about all this. As an educational visit I would suggest it is just about the best choice of all for now. Learn about SHB from those who really have seen it and hear what THEY have to say rather than listen to scaremongers and alarmists (applies equally well to folk like me of course, who consider it likely to be a non issue, and liberalists).

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I know nothing of this trip or the guy concerned, but know there are some very good and ethical queen rearers out there on the northern fringes of the SHB outbreak that would be well worth visiting.
> 
> Apicoltura 2 Ponti, not far north of the core of the outbreak, would be a real treat. .........
> 
> As far as I can see no-one is proposing to be bringing bees back, and the Italians themselves have been really good about all this. As an educational visit I would suggest it is just about the best choice of all for now. Learn about SHB from those who really have seen it and hear what THEY have to say rather than listen to scaremongers and alarmists (applies equally well to folk like me of course, who consider it likely to be a non issue, and liberalists).


Thanks C4u ~ yes they are visiting around Apicoltura 2 Ponti. I am chastened and you've reminded us how much these breeders' businesses are being damaged just now. 

I assumed they were visiting with a view to buying bees ... but maybe not. I'll ask.

----------


## Calluna4u

I apologise if that came across as a personal rebuke of some kind. It was not meant that way. I just reckon that the best way to learn is to actually see, and second best is to hear from those that have actually seen.

I get a bit frustrated at folk in general (and the southern equivalent of this group are particularly prone to this) who are not open to seeing things that do not coincide with their own viewpoint. I know some of the guys out there and have no cause whatsoever to denigrate what they do. I very much doubt that ANY of the professionals in Calabria, or Sicily (where I know the people better) would risk selling on anything. Too much to lose from non compliance with the local rules if nothing else.

At last information I had over 3000 colonies had been burned, jobs and homes lost, compensation grossly delayed. Not good.

I don't know what else they can do about it. The eradication, if it is ever achieved, will take some seasons, for a problem, that in most places, is not considered serious. Sub tropical areas of USA apart, and heated honey houses where combs are stored longer than they should be. 

Latest feedback from my Italian contacts is that if it is still showing up in another two years they are most likely to close their whole national border to exports, and declare the southern parts at least as infested. They are at the point of considering if the cure is worse than the complaint.

To be perfectly clear however......despite my lack of alarm at SHB, I consider any imports from southern Italy as very foolish indeed. There are multiple reasons for this, not just my own ambivalence to SHB.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> I apologise if that came across as a personal rebuke of some kind. It was not meant that way ...........


I didn't read it as a rebuke at all C4u. But I realised I had a myopic view of this and am grateful for the bigger picture. It's distressing to know the hardship the SHB outbreak has caused down there.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Its tough on those Italian breeders ,but somebody selfish brought the SHB into their area and now they are paying the price
Lets hope it doesn't happen here

----------


## Calluna4u

> but somebody selfish brought the SHB into their area and now they are paying the price


How it got there is not known yet. It may have been adventitious, or the darker spectre being raised there is malicious. A deliberate act of revenge.

Good people are being devastated financially and I know certain sections of the UK lobby don't give a **** as long as it can be used to keep imports out.

However......the beetles themselves appear to have done little damage there, the regulations massive damage.

They are in all probability innocent victims. I detect no sympathy from you for our fellow bee people. There but for the grace of.......etc.

The typing of the beetles to determine the origin of the infestation will be interesting......then the finger pointing can begin.

----------


## drumgerry

I wouldn't say it's a lack of sympathy per se C4U.  Personally speaking there are few beekeeping businesses I would want to see go down the tubes and from what you describe the affected Italian queen breeders seem to be decent people.  It seems a pity that their businesses are export dependent although it sounds like their domestic trade has been severely curtailed by SHB as well.  To me though it makes the case for keeping things local ever stronger.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> How it got there is not known yet. It may have been adventitious, or the darker spectre being raised there is malicious. A deliberate act of revenge.
> 
> Good people are being devastated financially and I know certain sections of the UK lobby don't give a **** as long as it can be used to keep imports out.
> 
> However......the beetles themselves appear to have done little damage there, the regulations massive damage.
> 
> They are in all probability innocent victims. I detect no sympathy from you for our fellow bee people. There but for the grace of.......etc.
> 
> The typing of the beetles to determine the origin of the infestation will be interesting......then the finger pointing can begin.


As for "There but for the grace of God etc" 
small hive beetle got to Italy through earthly means and thats how it will get here

----------


## fatshark

Wandered across to the bee shed to collect something I'd left there by accident yesterday.
The heavens opened. 
Fortunately, I've taken a deck chair over there for precisely this sort of eventuality. I spent a dry and relaxing 20 minutes listening to the faint hum of the hives and the film review on Radio 5. 

Note to self #1 ... leave an umbrella there for the next time
Note to self #2 ... and a kettle  :Wink:

----------


## drumgerry

Lovely to see the bees working the willow here in Speyside this afternoon.  Does the spirit good!

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Wandered across to the bee shed to collect something I'd left there by accident yesterday.
> The heavens opened. 
> Fortunately, I've taken a deck chair over there for precisely this sort of eventuality. I spent a dry and relaxing 20 minutes listening to the faint hum of the hives and the film review on Radio 5. 
> 
> Note to self #1 ... leave an umbrella there for the next time
> Note to self #2 ... and a kettle


I too took refuge in the bee shed, where I cut myself twice trying to drill holes in an acrylic sheet, and had to listen to a medley of songs by the popular crooners _Def Leopard
_
What is radio 5 ?
Is it new ?
Possibly the accumulator on my radio needs charging

----------


## fatshark

Does Angus only get the BBC Home Service still? Disappointing.

Spent yesterday building a shed-load of frames. Having knocked up a few boxes of foundationless frames I switched to using full sheets of foundation ... why is Thorne's Premium National foundation consistently too wide for the frame? Grrr. Every sheet had to be trimmed by a couple of millimetres. In contrast, the few dozen sheets of Maisemores standard stuff were a perfect fit ... but every one of them is going to need the hairdryer treatment as the stuff is old and 'bloomed'.

160402-15.jpg

Before ... you know what a sheet that fits properly looks like.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

This might be wrong but sometimes I find if you get frames from one supplier and wax from another they dont fit
The easipet stuff is too thick 
I have had to shave a few mm off standard wax as well at times
Its worse when the frames are seconds because nothing fits 
If it was easy everyone could do it

I have dashed off a telegram to Angus asking him to confirm the broadcast status in his area
As yet he has not replied, perhaps the runner has been intercepted by a band of feral farmers

----------


## fatshark

Frames and foundation both first quality from big T in this case ... except for the foundation that fitted which was Maisies and was so old it was probably cut to Imperial measurements.
I use second quality frames usually for foundationless ... out and out duds are rare and I don't have to worry about shonky grooves in the sidebars as there's no foundation to fit. If they're seconds it also doesn't hurt as much when I chuck 'em rather than going through the palaver of reclaiming the wax and rewiring them. Seconds and foundationless mean I'm willing to splurge on DN5's ... Luxury  :Wink: 

Yet another season has started without me making my own starter strips during the winter ... shame on me. I need to build a tall thin wax melter of some sort.

Are those feral bee farmers intercepting your runner?

----------


## The Drone Ranger

> Frames and foundation both first quality from big T in this case ... except for the foundation that fitted which was Maisies and was so old it was probably cut to Imperial measurements.
> I use second quality frames usually for foundationless ... out and out duds are rare and I don't have to worry about shonky grooves in the sidebars as there's no foundation to fit. If they're seconds it also doesn't hurt as much when I chuck 'em rather than going through the palaver of reclaiming the wax and rewiring them. Seconds and foundationless mean I'm willing to splurge on DN5's ... Luxury 
> 
> Yet another season has started without me making my own starter strips during the winter ... shame on me. I need to build a tall thin wax melter of some sort.
> 
> Are those feral bee farmers intercepting your runner?


its been a problem since the big collapse in the bee population 
not enough pollinators farmers taking to crime now the crops are all failing
you surely havent missed that thread

your so money supermarket fatshark  :Smile:

----------


## fatshark

> your so money supermarket fatshark


Absolutely ... which means finding a beesuit that fits this

faee4c0977d6cfff5eac69da4e4f20ea.jpg

is tricky.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

Lol!!

----------


## fatshark

Unconventionally and perhaps controversially bringing this thread back on topic ...

I went through three colonies in my shed today ... one of the full-sized colonies had two reasonable patches of sealed drone brood, perhaps 2+" across. Definitely not a DLQ as the rest of the 4-5 frames were pretty good quality worker brood, with at least one frame a slab of lovely brood with very few gaps. The other full-sized colony, which was if anything further developed, had no drone brood. The only difference is that the one with drone brood was on foundationless frames where the bees draw a mix of worker and drone cells 'as needed', but also repurpose them - or perhaps restructure would be a better word - if required. 

I've got no experience with early season in Scotland but was surprised to see drone brood so early. I suspect that the cells were drone from last year and that it's been too cold for the bees to restructure them for the workers the colony should be raising ... another example of the Q not really being in charge of things, but simply acting as an egg laying machine?

External temperature about 11-12 C ... a balmy 18 C in the shed with the door open most of the time  :Smile:

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## greengumbo

> Unconventionally and perhaps controversially bringing this thread back on topic ...
> 
> I went through three colonies in my shed today ... one of the full-sized colonies had two reasonable patches of sealed drone brood, perhaps 2+" across. Definitely not a DLQ as the rest of the 4-5 frames were pretty good quality worker brood, with at least one frame a slab of lovely brood with very few gaps. The other full-sized colony, which was if anything further developed, had no drone brood. The only difference is that the one with drone brood was on foundationless frames where the bees draw a mix of worker and drone cells 'as needed', but also repurpose them - or perhaps restructure would be a better word - if required. 
> 
> I've got no experience with early season in Scotland but was surprised to see drone brood so early. I suspect that the cells were drone from last year and that it's been too cold for the bees to restructure them for the workers the colony should be raising ... another example of the Q not really being in charge of things, but simply acting as an egg laying machine?
> 
> External temperature about 11-12 C ... a balmy 18 C in the shed with the door open most of the time


Few patches of drone brood up here. Not quite 2+" but two colonies out of 16 had drone brood. Def marked mated queens in them. Told you it wasn't so bad up here !

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## fatshark

Look carefully GG ... that drone brood was laid up last year ... it's been frozen solid for the last 7 months  :Wink: 
Good to hear you're back on your feet again.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Unconventionally and perhaps controversially bringing this thread back on topic ...
> )


there's a topic ?
Another hive bit the dust thats 2 hives 2 nucs and 8 out of 14 Keilers Kaput

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## fatshark

I didn't go.

But I did look through the "_What's new_" section of the Thorne's catalogue online.

*The Good*
Stainless steel runners - no more acetic acid destruction
Plastic QE with beespace one side
Rainbow Apidea-sized mating hive for £8ish (but perhaps not for overwintering)

*The Bad*
Eyewateringly expensive new floor system with about 35 modules and add-ons. Some combinations - this is a floor remember - cost £80-120  :EEK!: 

*The Ugly*
SHB traps
Dummy boards for £10, yes ... you read that correctly
Api-Bioxal 350g for £_this page isn't wide enough_

... and then I went and built some more frames  :Wink:

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## gavin

> Rainbow Apidea-sized mating hive for £8ish (but perhaps not for overwintering)


Nice looking price and reasonable looking box.  One difficulty might be that it looks exactly like a picnic cooler box so if you site them out in nice places passers by might be tempted to look in for pieces and cakes.

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## The Drone Ranger

Varrox is now £100 which is competitively priced

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## greengumbo

I checked some hives up on windy sites yesterday. Loads of brood but hardly any stores. Off to give them an emergency feed today. Queens kicked off with brood a while back but then its been terrible weather last two weeks. Really annoyed at myself for not checking last week.

Snow tonight apparently.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I checked some hives up on windy sites yesterday. Loads of brood but hardly any stores. Off to give them an emergency feed today. Queens kicked off with brood a while back but then its been terrible weather last two weeks. Really annoyed at myself for not checking last week.
> 
> Snow tonight apparently.


Looks like a old snap GG
Liquid feed I presume ?

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## greengumbo

> Looks like a old snap GG
> Liquid feed I presume ?


Went and checked them yesterday in the sun. Hives all now have plenty stores and were piling in with gorse and some light grey / browny pollen (willow?).

Still plenty brood so got them in the nick of time.

Painted a few old WBCs as well. Lovely looking, if totally impractical, hives ! Great for the garden though.

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## wee willy

Surprising what the extra day length does . 3 weeks ago , not an egg on any hive ! 
Tuesday every hive had brood all stages , plenty of stores . I supered the most advance one . And took the opportunity to re- mark the Queens. My eye sight isn't as good as it was . :Smile:  my wife was first to spot the queens and I as I said re- marked them .
Yesterday I sat amongst the hives and had a good hour watching and listening the the bees furiously working , birds a twittering , even the farm chickens scratching around the hives , I've no experience of heaven but this must have been close to it ! 
Still a thrill after 27 years at it ! 


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## Kate Atchley

> ... Yesterday I sat amongst the hives and had a good hour watching and listening the the bees furiously working , birds a twittering , even the farm chickens scratching around the hives , I've no experience of heaven but this must have been close to it ! 
> Still a thrill after 27 years at it !


Thanks willy ... so good to read. We seldom seem to share such moments here but how precious they are!

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## Kate Atchley

Yesterday, in glorious sunshine but still only 13º, I took a quick look at 6 of the Amm hives. 
1st hive: 2013 queen's turned drone-layer over the winter. Left them alone to sort out later.2nd Hive: Also had a 2013 queen. Found a handful of sealed worker brood cells and a newly-hatched queen running around with one Q cell still intact. The cell she'd emerged from was on the other side of the frame. She's not the smallest queen I've seen mated and lay successfully so I left her alone.
The other 4 colonies have patches of worker brood on 3 or 4 frames. Looking fine and bringing in nectar along with pollens.

Humm ... will that virgin queen manage to mate? The only drones around are in the queen-laying colony but the temperature's low and unlikely to reach supposed mating levels any time soon. And can a queen lay successfully having mated from one colony only? Also, I'm not sure if the virgin-queen colony has any young bees. Maybe they're  all on their last legs though there's plenty of them for now. 

I could add a frame with brood from elsewhere but prefer to wait and watch. I'm very interested to see what happens. Any guesses?

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## fatshark

> Any guesses?


This is when your queen should be out and mating ... I hope she's got an umbrella, galoshes and a warm scarf. 

BBC_Weather_-_Kilchoan.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

> Any guesses?


14 day forecast says no
Mature drones in short supply
I would guess no the virgin wont mate

Possibly a new larva started now would be hoping for a mating flight in 3 weeks +
Better but not that good either

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## Kate Atchley

> This is when your queen should be out and mating ... I hope she's got an umbrella, galoshes and a warm scarf. 
> 
> BBC_Weather_-_Kilchoan.jpg


Working on it Fatshark ... sadly the microscopy exam syllabus didn't include knitting under the dissecting mic. But hey, I can work it out!

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## Kate Atchley

> ... I would guess no the virgin wont mate
> 
> Possibly a new larva started now would be hoping for a mating flight in 3 weeks +
> Better but not that good either


I agree DR ... it'd would be something of a miracle if she mates. I'm disinclined to graft until or unless there are advanced drone cells or drones in other colonies, and I have not seen them.

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## The Drone Ranger

Your initial plan to put a frame of brood in might keep them ticking over till you can do something  Kate

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## Mellifera Crofter

I posted earlier today, but to the wrong thread.  So, here again, just to report that I finally managed yesterday to inspect all the colonies that floated down the Deveron and found all the queens alive and well.
Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

> I posted earlier today, but to the wrong thread.  So, here again, just to report that I finally managed yesterday to inspect all the colonies that floated down the Deveron and found all the queens alive and well.
> Kitta


I saw that Kitta and rejoiced for you and your bees. What amazing creatures these are!

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## EK.Bee

Horrible smell in the apiary............
feared the worst ? foulbrood

turned out to be a dead fox a foot away from one of the hives
What a relief!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Horrible smell in the apiary............
> feared the worst ? foulbrood
> 
> turned out to be a dead fox a foot away from one of the hives
> What a relief!


foulbrute ?

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## Bumble

> Horrible smell in the apiary............
> 
> turned out to be a dead fox a foot away from one of the hives


Ugh, it's a truly revolting smell. There's one beneath a neighbour's summerhouse, not getatable without dismantling the building so it can't be moved or covered with soil. We're all hoping it will have finished decaying before the warmer weather gives us the chance to use our gardens for relaxation.

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## Calluna4u

Were out checking bees this morning. There was so much nectar midweek that we started supering in some locations. However, then we came across a couple of groups (from the same wintering group that the ones with all the nectar had been in) that were at the point of starvation. SHARP attention needed to this factor while this cold spell persists. They are wolfing their stores now as the brood area sharply increases, and the traditional seasonal warning from the NBU is very apt. It is being poo pooed by the usual suspects on 'other places' but its very timely in truth. Not all groups of hives are so lucky as to have perfect forage and genetics from bee heaven (You know the ones...they pull in abundant pollen and nectar at 5C with no flowers to get at. Very dangerous tripe when read by beginners who think that normal and stop looking.).

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## nemphlar

Timely warning I Supered half of mine last week and went round them today to distribute the leftover fondant to make sure these big hives don't starve, it's a challanging climate to keep bees

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## The Drone Ranger

Same here checking nucs today
More brood less food
lots of pollen going in though

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## SDM

This cold spell looks set to roll well into May, you guys won't see over 10°c much for the next 3 weeks at least. I need shares in Bako.
At least we now know the answer to " will your bees swarm in May"

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## GRIZZLY

Still haven't looked into mine. The weather has just been too cold and windy. Now it seems we're in for another cold weather bashing.Worst spell of weather in the 30 years  I've lived here.

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## Kate Atchley

One of those taking the beginners' course asked me yesterday when the difference between Summer and Winter bees becomes evident. Are Winter bees reared as such from the start, in the brood nest, or do the differences develop later, as adults. 

For that matter, anyone able to share what the differences are? I know about more fat bodies ... anything else?

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## The Drone Ranger

> This cold spell looks set to roll well into May, you guys won't see over 10°c much for the next 3 weeks at least. I need shares in Bako.
> At least we now know the answer to " will your bees swarm in May"


It does look like a long cold spell  :Smile: 
Inside the hive though (if they are not starving out) they will be raising more brood
That's one of the problems when you if can't inspect because its too cold

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## fatshark

Which means if we do get a warm patch all hell breaks loose and it's *swarmaggedon* ...

We had this last year (? memory a bit fuzzy) in the Midlands. An extended cool patch. You could open hives and find sealed QC's with the old queen still running about. Then the temperature rose and it was berserk for a couple of days.

DR ... you'll be pleased to know I've sourced some Snelgrove boards ... I nearly got exposure applying a coat or two of wood preservative to them on Saturday evening having spent the afternoon dodging hail showers in the hills. _Brrr!_

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## The Drone Ranger

Is that vitellogelin or something Kate
They are reared as Winter bees from September laying I believe
The queen does lay small amounts sporadically in Winter though  
I think that's likely to be important by Spring

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## The Drone Ranger

I'm glad to hear you are all organised Fatshark
When you see drone brood its game on  :Smile:

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## Jon

> the traditional seasonal warning from the NBU is very apt. It is being poo pooed by the usual suspects on 'other places' but its very timely in truth.


I circulated the NBU warning to our association members last week. Some colonies could easily starve out with this week of cold weather coming up. A few litres of syrup is cheap insurance.

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## Jon

> One of those taking the beginners' course asked me yesterday when the difference between Summer and Winter bees becomes evident. Are Winter bees reared as such from the start, in the brood nest, or do the differences develop later, as adults. 
> 
> For that matter, anyone able to share what the differences are? I know about more fat bodies ... anything else?


I imagine almost all the winter bees have died off as colonies are on the second or third brood cycle by now.

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## fatshark

> I'm glad to hear you are all organised Fatshark
> When you see drone brood its game on


Just had a quick peek and seen my first play cups ... 8-9 frames of brood now on one of the hives in the shed.They've started putting a bit into the super but I'm going to have to put a second brood box on them ... once they've calmed down a bit, they're distinctly tetchy being opened on a day like today  :Wink: 

PS and to reiterate some of the above ... stores were low so I've given them a full frame or so from my stocks

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## Jon

Some of my queens have finally started to lay in drone cells so I should have  drones flying by the end of May. 10th-15th May should be ok to start grafting, weather permitting.

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## fatshark

I previously removed a pizza slice of brood (on the 11/12th of April) and the bees quickly refilled the gap with drone comb which is now all sealed. The same hive has some drones in it already. I suspect most of these will have passed their prime by the time we get weather suitable for mating  :Frown:

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## Jon

With drones you really need continuous production to be sure of having plenty at optimum fertility.

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## mbc

Popped a qx between the boxes on a strong double brood today, grafting commences in 9 days time, theres increasing numbers of drones about down here and I expect there'll be plenty by the time the virgins from the first batch are wanting nuptials.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Are Winter bees reared as such from the start, in the brood nest, or do the differences develop later, as adults.  ...


I don't think they're 'reared' as such - they just are.  And they are winter bees mainly because they don't have to feed brood, and therefore their hypopharangeal and brood food glands remain young, and that in turn means, as DR said, high levels of vitellogenin and build-up of fat bodies.  See Celia Davis, The Honey Bee Inside Out, page 147.  I've just written Module 5 in March and made a bit of a hash of a question about vitellogenin and juvenile hormone - so, I won't try and expand on that!

Kitta

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## Emma

Two empty pairs of breeze blocks, some post-uniting newspaper fluff, a few foragers circling where an entrance used to be. After selling a queen and a nuc yesterday, today my apiary is down to 5 colonies. My plan for a boringly manageable beekeeping season is under way.

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## Kate Atchley

Bees ... 5 hives of them ... boring? How could that be Emma?!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Two empty pairs of breeze blocks, some post-uniting newspaper fluff, a few foragers circling where an entrance used to be. After selling a queen and a nuc yesterday, today my apiary is down to 5 colonies. My plan for a boringly manageable beekeeping season is under way.


I  would like to follow your example Emma 
More is less when it comes to honey  :Smile:

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## madasafish

> Two empty pairs of breeze blocks, some post-uniting newspaper fluff, a few foragers circling where an entrance used to be. After selling a queen and a nuc yesterday, today my apiary is down to 5 colonies. My plan for a boringly manageable beekeeping season is under way.


Those kind of sales  resemble  my plan to reduce the costs of my hobby to a more acceptable level :-)

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## fatshark

Brrr.  Added second brood box to a colony in the shed ... a balmy 14C indoors ... 5C warmer than outside. Bees busy fetching water in the sunny bits between hail showers.

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## greengumbo

Wintery blasts again. 

Still I managed to finally get round to ordering a load of hives from Swienty in Denmark and frame/wax from Wilara. Great service and very communicative......and a heap cheaper than what I could find in the UK. 

One small step for a small scale beefarmer to be  :Wink:  

Prepare for panic as the swarms overcome me and the splits I make from existing hives don't take !

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## busybeephilip

Pretty darn cold here, was snowing for a short while.  Some of mine are on double boxes with a super (plenty of dandelions about, blackthorn and chestnut starting), also young drones were present although have not seen any flying yet (there not stupid when its cold)  supposed to be cold for a week then warm up again, no joke but I can see many beeks with strong hives loosing swarms in the next week or two.

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## The Drone Ranger

Bit cold but sunny here
Of the 14 keilers I took into Winter only 3 left now
My fault obviously but still a bit disappointing

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## busybeephilip

The Keiler is about the same internal dimension to the apidea, ? I never had much luck with trying to over winter apideas in that I gave up even trying, they always dies off in the spring.  Jon overwinters his queens for spring in double apideas which I suppose gives them a better bee population and bigger food reserve.  Just back from my local bee meeting, and the situation for most beeks seems not to good with many loosing all their bees and some colonies just not worth trying to nurse.  Others are reporting hives full of bees and one person even reported having a queen cell so its a real mixed bag.  The way I look at it is that it sorts out the bees with "good" genetics from those that do not have a good survival instinct so it can only be a good thing in the long run.

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## Calluna4u

Continuing the feeding programme. Many colonies getting desperate. Sitting on the OSR...getting zilch.

Some apiaries on an upward trend bees wise now, but most still not reached crossover day.......not seen any drones other than in colonies with problems. No drone brood in good stock, only less choice stuff. Will now not commence grafting until middle of May. Suppose it could be done earlier if trying to prove a point, but the results will not be optimal.

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## prakel

> Will now not commence grafting until middle of May. Suppose it could be done earlier if trying to prove a point, but the results will not be optimal.



Knocked out a couple of supercedure cells yesterday for just that reason. Nice looking cells both with 11/12 day olds but what's the point of having worthless virgins wandering the combs. Drone numbers are improving at inland sites but May's often poor here so the odds are against the queens every time.

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## greengumbo

> Continuing the feeding programme. Many colonies getting desperate. Sitting on the OSR...getting zilch.
> 
> Some apiaries on an upward trend bees wise now, but most still not reached crossover day.......not seen any drones other than in colonies with problems. No drone brood in good stock, only less choice stuff. Will now not commence grafting until middle of May. Suppose it could be done earlier if trying to prove a point, but the results will not be optimal.


The OSR is still a few weeks away from flowering up this way Murray. I recall you have a unit near Inverurie or is that someone else ? Some fields are showing patches of flowers but nothing significant. Hopefully the weather improves next week so that by the time it flowers the bees can take advantage.

I am still feeding colonies to be sure they are okay. The differences between the wooden and poly hives this year in particular is really obvious.

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## The Drone Ranger

> The Keiler is about the same internal dimension to the apidea, ? I never had much luck with trying to over winter apideas in that I gave up even trying, .


Hi phillip 
Quite a few were double keilers but once the stores run out and they are not able to fly due to weather (even with food in the compartment) they just seem to sit on the combs and die
In a way it shows why so many queens are imported every year

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## Calluna4u

> The OSR is still a few weeks away from flowering up this way Murray. I recall you have a unit near Inverurie or is that someone else ? Some fields are showing patches of flowers but nothing significant. Hopefully the weather improves next week so that by the time it flowers the bees can take advantage.
> 
> I am still feeding colonies to be sure they are okay. The differences between the wooden and poly hives this year in particular is really obvious.


Will be up for a look in the next couple of days. Have 12 to 14 apiaries in the Monymusk/Kemnay/Castle Fraser area every year. They are an isolated unit that stays up there, only going to heather around Dinnet and Glengairn, then back out to their area of origin. Kept that way so no-one can point the finger at us for brining anything nasty into the area. They are still concentrated in 3 wintering sites and need distributing out to their OSR locations. Very low losses indeed up there this year. One the fingers of one hand out of 200....but drone layers etc still to be found. We do not do autumn uniting either, so this is the loss since heather stripping time, when the obvious duds are just shaken out.

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## Emma

Went out for a break from the computer, back of 5pm, because I saw something that looked a bit like sunshine. By the time I'd checked and rinsed a couple of varroa boards my hands were turning purple with the cold. The bees were flying. Nutters! Or locally adapted, who knows?
The longhive colony has dropped a big clutch of drone cappings & continues to forage avidly. I wrapped their leaky box at the start of the winter & by now it's dry. They've been expanding steadily backwards  for the last few weeks.
They seem optimistic about the near future. Having driven slowly home through a blizzard tonight, I'm wondering whether they've judged it right.

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## drumgerry

> Will be up for a look in the next couple of days. Have 12 to 14 apiaries in the Monymusk/Kemnay/Castle Fraser area every year.


I used to live just along from Castle Fraser C4U - near Achath Farm if that means anything to you.  In fact it's where I took up beekeeping in 2004.  Beautiful part of the country that I still have a great affection for.

In other news temp here reached 24C here in Speyside today and I see it reached 27C on Skye.  Bees all over the Gean trees here.   Wasn't someone saying the other week that we wouldn't be seeing double figure temps for most of May?  Shows it doesn't pay too look too far ahead with Scotland's weather!

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## SDM

> Wasn't someone saying the other week that we wouldn't be seeing double figure temps for most of May?  Shows it doesn't pay too look too far ahead with Scotland's weather!



That would be me, it was referred to as a " high confidence" forecast from several sources. They don't often get a general trend like that so completely wrong. 
Sometimes it's good to be wrong !

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## The Drone Ranger

Good weather for beekeeping 

Ran into the only psycho bees so far this season
Trying to split for a Snelgrove they just got crazy
Got the job done but they followed me round the rest of the hives causing trouble 

It was a bit later in the afternoon so I called it a day 
They need re-queening before they start producing many drones
Because she went below the board she wont produce any for a while yet 
Once I get a queen in the top I'll move the bottom box and squish her without the problem of vicious bees

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## Feckless Drone

> Good weather for beekeeping


At work - but got the solar melt system out (hope the misses does not miss those tights) - does that count ?

DR- have I got this right, you are using the SN board before you see Q-cells, looking to get the bees raising new Q's to your schedule and ahead of the swarming urge?

I've tried both before the Q-cells appear and then as soon as I see them. Not sure I can really detect any difference in outcomes from a limited number of colonies/seasons. I hoped I might be selecting for non-swarmy bees by doing the former but I guess dream on or I need another million generations for the selection.

I got a problem in a colony - two Q cells really well stuck together, old Q still laying a bit, so I thought supercedure! I put the two cells above a SN board, Q below in standard way. Next week, Q still laying, 2 stuck cells together. Last year I had the same situation and screwed up both cells when I tried to take one down and ended up with a Q-less colony but this time I've left the two pairs of cells stuck together in top and bottom, moved the old Q to a nuc and changed SN entrances. So - top has bit of sealed brood with few foragers, bottom has lots of foragers, hardly any brood. The concern is that with >1 cell I may lose a swarm because there are still good numbers of bees top and bottom. I might try to pull one Q out early on Sunday (day 15 or 16) and see what happens. Any similar experiences out there?

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## nemphlar

I wouldn't trust a large hive not to swarm, I had one large hive swarmed 2 years ago with the only hatching cell and left themselves hopelessly queen less. Brushed them through a queen excluder before I gave them a new laying queen. They don't know best

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## The Drone Ranger

> DR- have I got this right, you are using the SN board before you see Q-cells, looking to get the bees raising new Q's to your schedule and ahead of the swarming urge?


That's the plan anyway  :Smile: 

Once they make queen cells they are inclined not to give up trying to swarm
Snelgrove says only use method 1 (normal) before queen cells are started
If you see cells use method No2 (Not always reliable)

With the problem double Q/cells Its likely the first virgin out will bop the noisy neighbour next door

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## GRIZZLY

Bees in a bloody minded mood today. In attendance wherever we are in the garden. In combination with the midges they  are making life a bit difficult. We are wearimg midge nets so this keeps the bees and midges away from our faces and long sleeves protect the  rest. They might be becoming candidates for re-queening.

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## fatshark

Mine were bolshy today as well ... they're usually lovely and calm and I've used the larvae for grafting. That'll teach me  :Frown:

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## GRIZZLY

Yes mine are usually nice but not for a day or two lately.

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## madasafish

> Yes mine are usually nice but not for a day or two lately.


I have two colonies crying out for requeening. My sting count at 54 is roughly double last year's at this time... 

Good thing I am a man and can bear it   :-)   Apologies for sexism... Bees are responding accordingly...

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## fatshark

Yikes ... 54. Two today, which is what I consider bolshy* 
They're often tetchy when the OSR goes over, but it's got a while to go yet.

* maybe I'm not man-enough for beekeeping  :Wink:

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## The Drone Ranger

Didn't open any hives today because of weather
It's switched to much cooler
I find if you p them off they take a while to forgive that
Yesterday I gave up with my queen rearing hive and stuck a Snelgrove board on instead
They of course have had a bit of messing about lately so with the cool weather they weren't too happy
Good thing is with the Snelgrove I don't need do inspections on them for a while  :Wink:  

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## fatshark

I'm doing side-by-side comparisons with a Snelgrove (following your instructions carefully DR - logic dictates that your gate numbering has odd numbers on the top of the board) and a bog-standard split board on a couple of colonies. 
Grafting last Sunday appears to have been OK with ~80% take. I'm using a Cloake board this year. 
The stings were from a bulging double brooded colony (in my shed - so they got a flying start) which has just received it's fourth super (though two are nearly sealed and will be removed at the w/e).

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## madasafish

> Yikes ... 54. Two today, which is what I consider bolshy* 
> They're often tetchy when the OSR goes over, but it's got a while to go yet.
> 
> * maybe I'm not man-enough for beekeeping


54 is my Year to date figure. Six on the date referred to..

One hive is just mental...but very full so requeening is going to be carefully planned.. Don't fancy them Q- for any length of time...

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## The Drone Ranger

hi fatshark yes the traditional numbering runs as door 1 above door 2   on one side
door 3 above door 4 on the opposite side
then door 5 above door 6 on the rear 
best of luck with it 
John

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## The Drone Ranger

Over on the beekeeping forum some folk are trying out Snelgrove No2 method
They are calling it the Wally Shaw method 

I'm not a fan of the method No2 myself 
I have used it but when it doesn't work the results are a massive swarm

But if you find queen cells and you have a board there are plenty people who have used that method satisfactorily pl

I must count stings madasafish usually the fingers get them so I try to lift the  offenders before they pull out their rear end

They can just come back more determined but I find if I fling them back in the top of the hive they just stay put  😃

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## gavin

I'm just plodding along with my standard swarm control.  It uses a lot of Paynes nucs (other makes are available) but it has several advantages. All queens clipped of course.

1.  A few queen cups with eggs or proper charged queen cells?  Go for it.  Don't leave any eggs in queen cups if you are not going to split.
2.  Queen comes out on a frame which is checked for queen cells, and into a Paynes nuc nearby, leaving the main box in place.  Add a second frame of bees and stores to the nuc.  Shake in young bees if you want it to grow quickly, otherwise leave as is.  Feeding helps it build.
3.  Two frames of foundation into the original box which is still on site.
4.  If there are open and sealed queen cells in the main box remove the sealed ones.  Otherwise leave alone for one week.  If you've been visiting frequently you'll not have only sealed cells.
5.  After the week, quickly check the old queen.  In its weakened state the nuc doesn't usually make additional cells but it might.
6.  Go through the powerful big box and leave only one good-looking queen cell.
7.  Relax, that one's done for the year (or two).

It is simple and straightforward and uses a weekly schedule.  Accounts for the additional queen cells made after the split.   Gives a stonking set of boxes of bees for the summer and autumn flows.  The new queen often lays up a whole box within a week of her starting laying.  Foolproof as long as you inspect properly.  And it leaves you with a nuc which can build to be a strong unit by the end of the season.

----------


## fatshark

That, or a close approximation, is also described in Adrian & Claire Waring's Teach Yourself Beekeeping*, which I consider one of the best books for beginners. The method is so straightforward and uses so little equipment I don't know why it isn't more often used as the recommended method on new beekeeping courses. Instead they usually get Pagden with stacks of boxes and someone facing the audience getting their right and lefts mixed up! Even the need to invest in a nuc box could be regarded as "a good thing" for a new beekeeper. Other than missing a QC in the nuc box - where you only have to check 2 frames - it's also pretty foolproof. Which is why I often use it  :Big Grin: 

* this book now has a different title but a largely unchanged content

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## gavin

I'll look out for the book.  Steve Rose on here was also championing putting the queen-right part to the side.  

Later today the beginners at the association apiary will see the modification to generate lots of nuclei.  The mature queen cells at the end of the week in the box(es) without the queen can be used to split into many nucs and if you arrange them in a semi-circle (or even a circle) you distribute the flyers amongst them.  The small box remaining with the old queen is left at the side or behind.  If you do this with a double brood colony (20 or even 24 frames of bees) you can generate up to 12 splits though 8 might be more likely.

Last year I started the season with 22 colonies.  Five were used to generate nucs, the rest kept strong.  Roughly ....

5 colonies x 8 nucs = 40 Paynes nucs plus 5 original queens
17 remaining colonies = 17 colonies + 17 nucs 

Potential increase 22 to 79 while leaving 17 colonies to produce honey or to be used for queen rearing and mininuc production.  Many splits with virgins failed last year in the poor summer so I went into winter with 65 stocks and came out with 59 (I think).  In a better year I'd have had maybe 70 ... or in a harsher winter I may have been down to 50 or fewer.

As mbc pointed out there is a temptation to split your strongest stocks.  If you can avoid that there is a better chance of a decent honey crop.

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## fatshark

I'm doing one of those circle splits tomorrow. A double brood into however many nucs I've got queen cells for plus the original Q (9 in total tomorrow I think). I've used the double brood colony as the cell raiser with a Cloake board. 

I use my least pleasant (which is a positive way to say worst behaved) colony for this, whatever the strength, just to get rid of them. Finally, I get a bit paranoid about the bees in the split preferentially going back to the old queen so take her nuc to another apiary. Probably unnecessary from what you say.

And it looks like it's going to be sunny and warm  :Cool:

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## Black Comb

I use the method Gavin describes, i.e. nucleus method of swarm control. It suits me as I use a single BB.
I think beginners might find it a little daunting as the published material (Dave Cushman and I have also seen it on other sites) say that when doing the final check for QC's shake the combs (apart from the one with the chosen cell) to ensure there are no others. If you leave more than one they will swarm. 
Any way, it works for me. I normally take the queen in the nuc box to another site so it does not lose flying bees.
This year I am trying out a modified Snelgrove using Ken Bastefields method as swarm prevention. Half way through so too early to say.

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## Kate Atchley

_?? How do I reply with quotes from Gavin, fatshark and Black Comb!?_

Fatshark, my reading of the Warings' book (now called _Get Started in Beekeeping_ is that they describe a classic Pagden ... moving the queen into a box of fresh frames on one frame of brood (free of Q cells), the original brood box moved to the side. Flying bees can be drained from this after a week or so by moving it to the other side, before splitting into nucs or reducing the number of Q cells, as preferred.

I don't think I've seen Gavin's method described elsewhere and it seems the ideal plan for a weekly cycle of visits and settling a colony to be non-swarming for the rest of the season, fingers crossed.

My puzzle is this: moving the Q to a nuc with 3 frames in, say, May restrains her before she has reached peak egg-laying in June. So some potential brood is lost as she will lay only slowly in the small nuc.

The original colony will requeen but, almost certainly, mating and laying will be slower than for a virgin flying from a small nuc colony. So again, a potential for egg laying may be lost in that timing difference comparing "Gavin's method" with Pagden.

So what is the best method for the hobby beekeeper who's not constrained to weekly visits, but wishes to:
control swarmingcreate increaseharvest a honey crop?
Perhaps the answer is the same if the question is phrased: which method promotes the laying of the most eggs? Ah, but do I hear you say "this may depend where the bees end up"?

I'm aware that a large colony achieves disproportionately more nectar gathering than, say, two colonies each half its size. So the size of the main colony is clearly important for the harvest. In Pagden, much of the original brood is moved away from the main colony. Yet the queen, if strong, will build up and lay the fresh frames quickly in the large colony. 

If, say, two colonies are created from the Pagden split-off Q cells these should build up in time to gather a surplus crop from the heather in these northern areas, especially if good weather prevails.

I'm using Gavin's method with one of the colonies at Strontian. But I sense Pagden is probably the overall winner, if beekeeping patterns allow. I'm interested to hear more from others about this.

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## Black Comb

Yes the nucleus method sounds great but in my experience there are 2 downsides.
1. You must fully inspect 9/10 days after removing the queen to knock down all QC's except your chosen one. Ideally shake the frames as if you miss one they will swarm. This is a nearly full queeless colony so they will be feisty.
2. There is a brood break. So, I take the queen in the nuc to another site and then bring back and unite before the main flow.
Yes Pagden has its advantages, some move the parent colony twice after the first manipulation to get plenty of flying bees back into the AS.

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## fatshark

Perhaps the Waring's' book has changed. My copy, 2006 ISBN 978-0-340-92563-8, has a section in Chapter 5 called *The nucleus method*. It was one of the few books that I've seen it described in ... but they also include the classic Pagden. 

If it has changed it's a retrograde step as I think the method has advantages, notwithstanding the need to inspect the original colony. A well-timed brood break has significant advantages in terms of _Varroa_ control, though I admit I'm not certain how to be sure of the timing ... which must be influenced by colony strength, forage availability and mite levels.

By coincidence I'm doing both methods today. 

PS The circle split mentioned above is on Wednesday ... I'm getting ahead of myself, the cells aren't quite ready yet.

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## Black Comb

I've not seen the Waring book but this is the one I use
http://www.shropshirebees.co.uk/swarmnuc.doc

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## Kate Atchley

> Perhaps the Waring's' book has changed. My copy, 2006 ISBN 978-0-340-92563-8, has a section in Chapter 5 called *The nucleus method*. It was one of the few books that I've seen it described in ... but they also include the classic Pagden. 
> 
> If it has changed it's a retrograde step as I think the method has advantages, notwithstanding the need to inspect the original colony. A well-timed brood break has significant advantages in terms of _Varroa_ control, though I admit I'm not certain how to be sure of the timing ... which must be influenced by colony strength, forage availability and mite levels...


No, the book hasn't changed fatshark ... my mistake, so sorry. I hadn't clocked Gavin's method was called the Nucleus Method and didn't notice it before "The Artificial Swarm". 

Just returned from trip to check queen cells above two Horsley boards but the slides had been moved so bees could pass to and fro from below, through the Qx. No cells started! Will need to begin again ... maybe another method but on another day ... the sun's still blazing here as it has been all day. Glorious!

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## fatshark

Glorious here as well ... just removed my first supers and discovered that my attempt with a Snelgrove board has been a bit of a failure. Don't tell DR.

I didn't get on too well with a Horsley board the couple of times I've used it. In contrast, a very ordinary and unexciting vertical split with a 7 day turn of the colony appears (again - it's almost idiot proof which is why I like it) to all be going fine and dandy.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Yes Pagden has its advantages, some move the parent colony twice after the first manipulation to get plenty of flying bees back into the AS.


Hi Black comb Pagden is expensive though
making a Snelgrove board about £5-00
Second broodbox for Smith £21 from Solway bees 
Total about £26

Pagden you need another roof £21 floor £17.30 crown board £7.00 plus the broodbox £21
Thats £66.30 so more than twice the cost
Plus you have to lug the thing from one side to the other  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Glorious here as well ... just removed my first supers and discovered that my attempt with a Snelgrove board has been a bit of a failure. Don't tell DR.
> 
> I didn't get on too well with a Horsley board the couple of times I've used it. In contrast, a very ordinary and unexciting vertical split with a 7 day turn of the colony appears (again - it's almost idiot proof which is why I like it) to all be going fine and dandy.


Bad luck Fatshark did they just swarm anyway ?
Or did you not get a new queen mated

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## fatshark

All looked good from the outside when I checked at 7 days ... lots of bees going in and out of the front entrance and door 1. Popped the lid to check for QC's in the top and found the smallest queen I've ever seen being harried by the bees. D'oh! I must have missed a tiny sealed QC when assembling the boxes. Of course, there wasn't a single other QC present. I took a frame of eggs and young larvae from the bottom box and put it into the top after ejecting the midget queen* ... leaving the doors unaltered. I'll check again next w/e.

No swarms yet, loads of nucs to make up this week and lots of bait hive activity ... it's going to be a good week  :Cool: 

* unfortunately, in doing this (she was being balled) I managed to drop her rather than squidge her so she's probably snuck into another box to wreak havoc. Not my finest beekeeping achievement.

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## SDM

> No swarms yet, loads of nucs to make up this week and lots of bait hive activity ...


2 hits on baithives and 3 callouts yesterday (2 dead ends, 1 was just scouts( though the bait hive I left may well be full today) and the other was half a swarm( the wrong half) that Thad fallen down a chimney leaving  4 or 500 bees in a 90 yr olds living room and the main colony in next door's chimney, theirs is blocked inside and they are happy for the bees to stay so it was just opening the window to let them join the others. It was nice to have most of the street out and families whod spent the last few hours locked in their houses  from fear, letting their kids feed syrup from their fingers to the stragglers. Watching the groundswell of opinion change from fear to fascination in so many people was a glorious end to a simply lovely days beekeeping !
Another week of 17-20°c and light winds forecast, there's a good flow of dark honey coming from the marshes....... happy days !

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi fatshark
You could harvest some of the new queen cells rather than door swap to get them taken down
Did they draw out some decent new comb in the bottom box for you or at least put some honey in the supers ?

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## fatshark

Hi DR ... there were no QC's in the top box. I think the presence of "Her Majesty the Midget" prevented them from being made. Hopefully, by not meddling with the doors for another week and by providing some larvae/eggs they'll get back on track.

That apiary is so-so for honey this season. My other site is going well, with another couple of supers being removed today. In fairness though, colonies in the latter are a lot stronger.

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## Feckless Drone

Hi - just noted short clip on the BBC (other channels are available) about a bee export activity. Interesting to see.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36430849

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, FD, interesting.  I've often wondered how people prepare packaged bees, and now I know.  Actually, no - I only know a bit.  After they've smoked out all the bees, what do they do with the brood that's left behind?
Kitta

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## Greengage

Preparing packaged bees in 1936
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/busy-bees

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## Mellifera Crofter

Nice video, Greengage - but it's not about packaged bees, but about queen-rearing and the queens then being packed off for posting or export.
Kitta

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## Greengage

yes I knew that but from 1936 it was interesting.

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## fatshark

Todays news ... extracting  :Big Grin: 
Tomorrows news ... discovering honey and wax spread on all the surfaces I didn't think I'd used  :Frown:

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## Calluna4u

> Todays news ... extracting 
> Tomorrows news ... discovering honey and wax spread on all the surfaces I didn't think I'd used


Next weeks news following on from above.......Fatshark not doing the bees due to appointments with relationship counsellor.

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## fatshark

:Smile: 

FOR SALE

12 colonies
15 nucs
48 (empty) supers

One careful (but not very careful as my spouse and Relate counsellor rather forcefully point out) owner ...


This is a follow-up to Calluna4U's prescient post ... of course, it's an unwise beekeeper who ever publishes colony numbers where an irate/sceptical/ignored spouse might read them  :Wink:  ... and now back to the cleaning up  :Frown:

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## Bridget

Been some smarmy bees in our apiary recently.  Collected a small swarm into a nuc on Sunday and another one from a juniper bush Monday - I nearly walked into it.   Turned out they were the same guys!  Poly nuc again and reduced the entrance to the excluder this time.  came back from work this evening and taking a quick look round the policies - small swarm back in the juniper bush. I'm sad they will have to stay there till my husband returns tomorrow evening as I'm not allowed to have anything to do with the bees anymore.  I'm not sure they will survive as temps down to 12 tonight.  Wish we could work out what is going on.  Never had a swarm before in five years, and now 3 but small.  Colonies volume looks pretty much the same, no Beekeepers within 2 miles and no feral bees that we know of. 


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## prakel

> Been some smarmy bees in our apiary recently.


Best sort them out before they join a certain clique and start posting on another forum -they've already got the primary qualification.

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## SDM

> Best sort them out before they join a certain clique and start posting on another forum -they've already got the primary qualification.



What ?  Are they  English bees ?

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## Calluna4u

> Been some smarmy bees in our apiary recently.  Collected a small swarm into a nuc on Sunday and another one from a juniper bush Monday - I nearly walked into it.   Turned out they were the same guys!  Poly nuc again and reduced the entrance to the excluder this time.  came back from work this evening and taking a quick look round the policies - small swarm back in the juniper bush. I'm sad they will have to stay there till my husband returns tomorrow evening as I'm not allowed to have anything to do with the bees anymore.  I'm not sure they will survive as temps down to 12 tonight.  Wish we could work out what is going on.  Never had a swarm before in five years, and now 3 but small.  Colonies volume looks pretty much the same, no Beekeepers within 2 miles and no feral bees that we know of. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Get your 'assistant' to stick a bar of open brood into it. That normally pins an unsettled cast(e). It will otherwise not settle until the virgins have sorted themselves out. Castes with multiple virgins (not at all unusual) are awkward to hive at times.

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## Bridget

> Get your 'assistant' to stick a bar of open brood into it. That normally pins an unsettled cast(e). It will otherwise not settle until the virgins have sorted themselves out. Castes with multiple virgins (not at all unusual) are awkward to hive at times.


Thanks will do that as soon as he gets home


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## Bridget

> Best sort them out before they join a certain clique and start posting on another forum -they've already got the primary qualification.


Didn't have a clue until I just re read my post!! Better not edit it now.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Get your 'assistant' to stick a bar of open brood into it. That normally pins an unsettled cast(e). It will otherwise not settle until the virgins have sorted themselves out. Castes with multiple virgins (not at all unusual) are awkward to hive at times.


That's interesting.  I caught a tiny swarm two days ago - really tiny - and wasn't sure whether it was a cast, or whether it was one of my virgin bees from a nucleus hive taking a rest on a mating flight.  Anyway, I caught them and put them back in a nucleus hive - and they've stayed put.  All my queens from established hives are home, and without any queen cells in the hives.  I won't find out which virgin it was until I go through the nucs.  But maybe I should follow your suggestion, then, C4U, and add a frame of open brood to the nucs before another virgin, or newly mated queen, decides to move house (and I didn't see it happen!).
Kitta

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## Emma

I think there's a bit of a flow on again. Wax being built, & filled with new liquid stores. But they're still quite keen on robbing, too, so I'm not sure. Wind's too loud to hear a hum from the limes, even if there is one, and the eye-level buds hadn't opened last time I checked. Anyone else got a flow on just now? Not so long ago it was all tetchiness and emptying stores combs round here.

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## madasafish

> I think there's a bit of a flow on again. Wax being built, & filled with new liquid stores. But they're still quite keen on robbing, too, so I'm not sure. Wind's too loud to hear a hum from the limes, even if there is one, and the eye-level buds hadn't opened last time I checked. Anyone else got a flow on just now? Not so long ago it was all tetchiness and emptying stores combs round here.


Yes.. just started.. lime I think.

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## Emma

Hmm... so at a guess we might be a couple of weeks later with the lime, in Fife. There's some lovely bramble blossom out round here, and I've seen a bit of clover. But still signs of robbing, and nucs still needing fed.
Enjoy your lime!  :Smile:

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## Calluna4u

> Hmm... so at a guess we might be a couple of weeks later with the lime, in Fife. There's some lovely bramble blossom out round here, and I've seen a bit of clover. But still signs of robbing, and nucs still needing fed.
> Enjoy your lime!


No flow whatsoever, at all our lowland locations from Aberdeenshire down to the Lothians. Plenty pollen but a total nectar dearth. The bees are bringing orange pollen from peas, so that's a sure sign they are desperate. Even Phacelia near Crieff is not yielding at all despite being a week into flowering. Every lime I have looked at still has the flowers in the tiny tight bud stage, would estimate most are two weeks away anyway. The Bell is already into the early days of the main flowering and the guys spotted ONE plant of Ling with open flowers today near Dinnet. In full swing moving bees to the heather now, so bye bye lime......too late again this year. Have to go to the more reliable crop  with 50% extra value, and forget the 1 year in 5 crop (lime). Bell is my personal favourite of all UK honeys anyway, the smell alone is wonderful.

Have been looking at the ling in a few places and it will NOT be late this year. I suspect if you do it the old way, up for the 12th Aug, you will have missed the best of it.


ps...this is the fifth week of nectar dearth........colony development for the August flow is now being seriously compromised if no feeding going on.

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## gavin

There is some lime out in the Carse of Gowrie, even saw honey bees (mine!) on them today.  Two swarm calls (and successful collections) in the last two days and some of mine were making queen cells too.  I reckon this was driven by a mini-flow in the last few days after weeks of dearth.  The dearth shut off swarming preparations for a while, the last few days have allowed them again.  But yes, time to head for the hills, in my case leaving some at favoured lime spots just in case.

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## Kate Atchley

> ...this is the fifth week of nectar dearth........colony development for the August flow is now being seriously compromised if no feeding going on.


The lime is just out here in Ardnamurchan after fewer than 5 weeks or dearth but, for weather, "west is worst" continues unabated. Our last sunny afternoon was 3 weeks ago and that was on its own. 

Queen mating is disastrous ... or non-existent a better description. Queens have generally stopped laying except in the colonies in Strontian which have their generous Spring crops on board.

Maybe time to take a package holiday (no imports intended!)!

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## The Drone Ranger

Found a bunch of wasps eating into one of my Maisemore nucs this time 
Looks like they are switching from beneficial to being a menace 
Time to destroy the nests ?

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## Calluna4u

Was at Dinnet today checking a few things out, including a bee site that has been bulldozed by a contractor and all our pallets etc destroyed....they were only placed there four days ago....

Anyway, that's not the significant news. The bees were working in the rain today, and going hell for leather in breaks,  and there was a smell of bell heather in the two apiaries we called in at. Now while this does not mean we have any significant honey, it DOES mean that fears of imminent starvation among the bees up to the bell already are over and it will boot the queens into a fresh bout of laying. On the low ground there is still zero nectar but good pollen coming in. Hope to have 80% of our good bell locations filled by next weekend, and the forecast is not bad from Friday onwards.

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## Bridget

> The bees were working in the rain today, and going hell for leather in breaks,  and there was a smell of bell heather in the two apiaries we called in at. Now while this does not mean we have any significant honey, it DOES mean that fears of imminent starvation among the bees up to the bell already are over and it will boot the queens into a fresh bout of laying. On the low ground there is still zero nectar but good pollen coming in. Hope to have 80% of our good bell locations filled by next weekend, and the forecast is not bad from Friday onwards.



Yes - our hives have been very busy over the past couple of days between the showers as well as in the rain.  Its been humid at times and there is a mass of small wild flowers around as well as wild roses, poppies, some bell heather and lots of clover . The cotoneasters in the garden are being worked on and yesterday evening they were still going strong at 7pm which is unusual as they usually put them selves to bed before 6pm and its just the bumbles working late. 

Is nectar flow dependant on the temperature?  I don't know how to tell whether they are getting any nectar.

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## madasafish

> Is nectar flow dependant on the temperature?  I don't know how to tell whether they are getting any nectar.


View returning bees. If laden with nectar they will be tail heavy , coming in to land like a 747...
Edit: but with less noise and pollution...

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## Calluna4u

Don't know what it says about the rest of the summer as they CAN change their minds and raise a fresh batch, but in Glengairn today several of the black bee colonies had all the drones out, dead carpet on the grass. Others were on guard denying drones entry and dragging them off by the wings. Its not at all unusual though, for the blacker bees on the moors to evict their drones in July, but this is pretty early.

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## fatshark

Must be the lack of weather the BBC are predicting this week ...

BBC_Weather_-_St_Andrews.jpg

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## madasafish

> Must be the lack of weather the BBC are predicting this week ...
> 
> Attachment 2711


Similar to here  minus 1C.

..  My mixed mongrel buckfast/carnie mix appear to cope.

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## gavin

> Similar to here  minus 1C.
> 
> ..  My mixed mongrel buckfast/carnie mix appear to cope.


I reckon that the supercomputer running it all had a meltdown when a butterfly (or something) caused the screeching of brakes and application of reverse gear on that prediction of a warm weekend.  We seem to be continuing with the usual cool, breezy, showery stuff.

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## gavin

On the other hand, despite the beeb last night saying the contrary, this site is still predicting a bit of a warm(ish) spell a few days ahead.  Murray posted the link to this site last year I think.

http://weather.unisys.com/gfs/gfs.ph...region=eu&t=9p

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## The Drone Ranger

Anyone for tennis sorry I mean varroa control
http://www.beeculture.com/winter-bee...l-combination/

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## SDM

> On the other hand, despite the beeb last night saying the contrary, this site is still predicting a bit of a warm(ish) spell a few days ahead.  Murray posted the link to this site last year I think.
> 
> http://weather.unisys.com/gfs/gfs.ph...0p®ion=eu&t=9p



For up to 7 days I use XCweather which is great for finding gaps in weather as its done at 3 hour intervals.
It does look like the jet stream is going to stall out, which usually means better/more stable weather especially for the west coast. It looks like up to August is a slightly improved more of the same, but early August looks really good for Ireland, S.west, N.west and wales .

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## prakel

Down here we remain totally independent of the weather forecasts. Strong colonies and regular batches of queens so that we can make the most of any breaks in the weather are the only things we've ever found effective.

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## fatshark

> Anyone for tennis sorry I mean varroa control
> http://www.beeculture.com/winter-bee...l-combination/


Not sure I get the tennis reference ... the article reads like an advert for MAQS, lifted from somewhere else which has resulted in the loss of the superscripts. To properly compare efficacy _vs._ Apistan they need to know the proportion of their mite population that was resistant. 

MAQS usage appears to be only infrequently used in Scotland ... ~5% of all treatments reported to Peterson & Gray for 2014.

As an aside ... I recently re-read the MAQS instructions which includes the text "_Do not destroy queen cells that may be observed prior to, or post treatment. Supercedure, even if thought to be set in motion by treatment, is a natural process, and should be allowed to proceed for the health of the colony. Verify queen-right one month after treatment. Mother and daughter queens present post treatment is not uncommon._"

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## Adam

"the article reads like an advert for MAQS".

I read it as that too! Looks like an advertorial to me and that should be stated in the publication.

MAQS does kill varroa. It is also quite harsh on the bee colony and it's not nice to see bees crawling out of the hive and falling off the landing board to die on the grass which can also happen!

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## Kate Atchley

When MAQS were first introduced, I tried them, having frequently used formic acid evaporation to treat varroa in the past, and found it very effective. However, we found out the hard way that the recommended MAQS dosage is too high for many of our colonies (smaller over here in the wild west than many of you elsewhere, I guess) and we lost 2 queens along with some bees with those early treatments. So if you use them, use only one strip for smaller colonies and be sure they're on an open mesh floor ... not mentioned in the blurb as far as I recall.

Personally, if treatments are needed other than in mid-winter, I would prefer to go back to using my evaporators, with the usual protective precautions, as these allow me to alter the dosage for colonies of different sizes.

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## The Drone Ranger

You missed Wimbledon then Fatshark  :Smile: 
I am not sure about MAQS but it is a possibility
The main thing though is that if there is no treatment now then there might be losses later
I use thymol but it can interfere with feeding and can stop wax building in its tracks
The idea of using oxalic evaporation only works effectively in broodless periods 
You can use multiple treatment with evaporation (3 or 4 treatments 5 days apart)
That's not practical with a varrox and lots of hives
Amitraz I think is vet only 
So if it's Thymol then 4 weeks of treatment takes us to mid August and mesh floors need closing
Sublimox anyone ?

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## gavin

Are you still using thymol in spirit, John?  I saw that in action and the bees really disliked it.  Also not compatible with the honey flow that's about to overwhelm us  :Smile: .

Amitraz is now approved for the UK but the Spanish company with the registration hasn't started selling yet as far as I know.  Look out for Apitraz 500 (I think) next year.  Until then Apivar is prescription only via Ark Vets unless you are in the BFA or know a friendly vet yourself.

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## SDM

> You missed Wimbledon then Fatshark 
> I am not sure about MAQS but it is a possibility
> The main thing though is that if there is no treatment now then there might be losses later
> I use thymol but it can interfere with feeding and can stop wax building in its tracks
> The idea of using oxalic evaporation only works effectively in broodless periods 
> You can use multiple treatment with evaporation (3 or 4 treatments 5 days apart)
> That's not practical with a varrox and lots of hives
> Amitraz I think is vet only 
> So if it's Thymol then 4 weeks of treatment takes us to mid August and mesh floors need closing
> ...


Mesh floors need closing ??

----------


## The Drone Ranger

You don't think so then SDM 

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## The Drone Ranger

Yes Gavin thymol spirit 
They don't like it much but it does work
I hope you are right about a flow from rosebay and balsam  :Smile: 

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## fatshark

> Sublimox anyone ?


Yes, me  :Wink:  It's the dogs bits.

However, _Varroa_ isn't my current problem ... it's drone laying workers  :Frown:

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## Jon

> Queen mating is disastrous ... or non-existent a better description. Queens have generally stopped laying except in the colonies in Strontian which have their generous Spring crops on board.


I had hardly any queens mate between 10 June and 7 July but had 60-70 start to lay after a couple of good days at the end of last week.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Yes, me  It's the dogs bits.
> 
> However, _Varroa_ isn't my current problem ... it's drone laying workers


How does it work is that big box just a case 
I take it you need mains or an inverter To power it 
Why is there no Uk distributor ?

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## fatshark

The big plastic box is just for storing it and carrying it around. You can fit a few odds and sods in as well - goggles, mask, gloves, a nice big tub of Api-Bioxal (ahem) and a bottle of water for cleaning the pan. It needs 240V ... easiest off the mains but I also have a portable generator (~700W if I remember) for out apiaries. 

I'd blame the lack of a UK distributor on Brexit ... but it's more likely the lack of demand. I only know a very few people who have them. 

Icko Apiculture provide good service and delivered quickly. 

I would argue that the Sublimox would be a good investment for some BKA's ... rather than individuals buying Varrox's or building some sort of DIY contraption a single Sublimox could be used to treat multiple hives in a single day. Apiaries would need to be reasonably close to reduce travelling time of course. Since the hive doesn't need to be opened treatments take 1 minute or less. With little or no fuss you can work out ways to treat any sort of hive ... and as if there isn't a suitable entrance it's easy enough to drill a 6mm hole through the sidewall of the floor to administer the vapour. Like this ...

20150920-80-22.jpg

... vaporiser is inserted inverted (as shown), then turned though 180o to drop the OA into the heated pan. Count to 40 and move on to the next hive.

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## Kate Atchley

> I had hardly any queens mate between 10 June and 7 July but had 60-70 start to lay after a couple of good days at the end of last week.


I think those "good days" missed us! Lovely today though.

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## madasafish

> I think those "good days" missed us! Lovely today though.


With the warmer weather , mine have started on lime. Despite raining half yesterday, the hives smelt of lime nectar this am...  I have a horrible hive on two supers needing another.. Maybe it's the bottom entrance or their genes?

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## Calluna4u

Been out all morning preparing hives for the heather. Still absolutely zero nectar though plenty pollen. Nests are bone dry with not a cell of honey. No local limes out yet though did see a grove of them in flower up the A9 at Ballinluig (we do not keep bees in that area). Some willowherb and the earliest balsam now out but nothing happening.

However my guys report that there is nectar coming in at the bell heather, bees returning heavy and full and a significant smell in the air. About 40% up now, by Monday will have all the bell places occupied, forecast looks moderately decent. Its quite normal for the bell and lime to clash like this...wait for the limes then you miss the bell.

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## The Drone Ranger

> The big plastic box is just for storing it and carrying it around. You can fit a few odds and sods in as well - goggles, mask, gloves, a nice big tub of Api-Bioxal (ahem) and a bottle of water for cleaning the pan. It needs 240V ... easiest off the mains but I also have a portable generator (~700W if I remember) for out apiaries. 
> 
> I'd blame the lack of a UK distributor on Brexit ... but it's more likely the lack of demand. I only know a very few people who have them. 
> 
> Icko Apiculture provide good service and delivered quickly. 
> 
> I would argue that the Sublimox would be a good investment for some BKA's ... rather than individuals buying Varrox's or building some sort of DIY contraption a single Sublimox could be used to treat multiple hives in a single day. Apiaries would need to be reasonably close to reduce travelling time of course. Since the hive doesn't need to be opened treatments take 1 minute or less. With little or no fuss you can work out ways to treat any sort of hive ... and as if there isn't a suitable entrance it's easy enough to drill a 6mm hole through the sidewall of the floor to administer the vapour. Like this ...
> 
> Attachment 2712
> ...


Thanks fatshark I didn't have a clear idea of how it worked 
I thought it was a fan or something in that box

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## Jon

> I think those "good days" missed us! Lovely today though.


Don't give up though. Keep the apidea feeders topped up and if they are still queenright there is a good chance they will mate.
I had a site with 50 apideas on it, most of them with queens 4 weeks old.
I lifted 26 of them last Friday without checking as I was having problems with a Badger pulling them apart.
I dropped them at another site on Friday evening and when I checked on Sunday 17 had eggs.
Thursday 7th was a day for queen mating flights so they all took the opportunity after 4 weeks.
These apideas were set out on 10th June. I was expecting queens to be laying around 20th June but better late than never.
Similar story at other sites as well.

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## Kate Atchley

> Don't give up though. Keep the apidea feeders topped up and if they are still queenright there is a good chance they will mate.
> I had a site with 50 apideas on it, most of them with queens 4 weeks old.
> I lifted 26 of them last Friday without checking as I was having problems with a Badger pulling them apart.
> I dropped them at another site on Friday evening and when I checked on Sunday 17 had eggs.
> Thursday 7th was a day for queen mating flights so they all took the opportunity after 4 weeks.
> These apideas were set out on 10th June. I was expecting queens to be laying around 20th June but better late than never.
> Similar story at other sites as well.


Your encouragement's very welcome Jon. Found a couple of queens laying yesterday that I'd more or less given up on. Saw a few more with accompanying bees very content so hope they may make it too. Spent 7 hours at the bees yesterday, the first fine day for ages. Dealt with drone laying queens, chilled queen cells and failed nucs by introducing new or overwintered queens etc. Fingers crossed for a milder spell now to step up the queen rearing again.

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## fatshark

> Thanks fatshark I didn't have a clear idea of how it worked 
> I thought it was a fan or something in that box


Too many boxes DR ... the box in the picture above - between the handle and the business end of the machine - contains some electrickery. Way beyond my level of expertise.  There's a photo kicking around on the web somewhere of the contents, not by me. The pressure caused by the sublimation of the powder as it's dropped into the pre-heated pan causes it to be forced out through the small nozzle. If you do it in the 'open' the vapour jet is about 2-3 metres long. No wonder it reaches the parts other miticides can't reach  :Wink:

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## alancooper

> Don't give up though. Keep the apidea feeders topped up and if they are still queenright there is a good chance they will mate.
> I had a site with 50 apideas on it, most of them with queens 4 weeks old.


Would the four-week Q still be able to mate? I have been working on the basis that 2 wks is fine for mating and although three weeks is the limit, it will often will not give good fertilisation. Your email was posted just in time for me retain two apideas with virgin queens that were three weeks old, having gone through a long period of wind, rain and low-teen temperatures.

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## Calluna4u

Steamy morning. Glad all the bees on the move this morning are screened polys.

Weather forecast very uncertain this week......changes every time its on. Good...then bad...then good again, and finally this morning its a one day heat event tomorrow then thundery breakdown overnight and back to cooler zonal westerlies for another spell from Wednesday......bummer.

60% of the bees now on the heather, almost all our bell sites are full or partially full, the first ling sites starting to go in too now. First flower on the ling in the earliest spots will be within the next three or four days.

Did the final grafting of the season at the weekend, and from now on in the queen unit winds down for the season. Lots of orders for this week and next though, but by the end of the month we will start vacating the unneeded mini boxes.

I now this seems early to most on this forum, but honestly there is little practical use, and only a tiny market, for several hundred new queens in late August and even September even though it can be done. Have a lot of hives with the drones out from earlier in the month though this seems to have stopped for now. Limes around the home area now showing flower, quite a lot in some places, but no evidence of much nectar. The humidity of the next day or two should change that, and last time I had a BIG lime flow, near Edinburgh, they filled BS deeps from foundation (they were prepared for the heather shift) in three to five days. Not many bees left near limes now, and the bell IS yielding.

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## The Drone Ranger

In September a lot of people might decide their hives are queenless though C4u   :Smile: 

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## Calluna4u

> In September a lot of people might decide their hives are queenless though C4u  
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Lol...yes indeed. Got that a lot last year. Takes a lot of questions to newer beekeepers to be sure they REALLY are queenless and not just shut down for the season. 

Was up in Deeside organising some new and some amended places yesterday but also to add some boxes. Decent nectar flow in lower Deeside, but west of Ballater there was still virtually nothing even on good Bell. Half a box on good ones near Dinnet (and these are poly Langs run all on deeps, so half a box on them is closing in on a full BS shallow). In most places the bees look good, the heather looks in great condition, and the ling is only a few days away and has good moisture levels. The ingredients for a good season are there and it will be in the laps of the weather gods now. Got every spare hand waxing stuff up now in the hope......

Down here there was nectar yesterday but it was still pretty sparse, except a few that seemed to have found phacelia. 

Saw a lot of unhappy homeless drones being dragged off out and trying to get back in. Many colonies still happy to carry their drone load.

A couple of our chosen drone mothers at the home mating unit have rid them selves of their drones. Not great as the choice of males for mating declines. Removing surplus colonies from the unit now off to earn their corn at the heather. The starters were all reformatted back to normal hives on Sunday bar the last one doing the last graft. All go off to the heather this week. Finishers will go early next week but we are into our last four days of local shifting, and then onto the English unit after that. Expecting everything on the ling sites by the month end, bar a few (about 40 actually) drone mothers kept back at the two mating units. Those will go too once the need for them has passed.

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## Bridget

> In most places the bees look good, the heather looks in great condition, and the ling is only a few days away and has good moisture levels.


Out for an early walk and the ling is very close.  My notes from last year said on the 10th August "heather is nearly out".  I agree. It looking in great condition.
See your bees are on the moor - looks like you have a fair few more than previous years. 


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## Calluna4u

> See your bees are on the moor - looks like you have a fair few more than previous years. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


At the bunch nearest to you the moor (the flat bit to the east of Drumguish heading towards Ruthven Barracks) the number is larger this year, going back to what we had there about 5 years back. That moor is just recovering from a massive burn maybe four years or so back.....took out almost all the low ground heather.....and only now do we judge it good for a full load again. Its has been on half loads the last three or four years. We have another spot perhaps half a mile away up in the trees. That will be filled later this week, nothing there yet.

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## Bridget

> At the bunch nearest to you the moor (the flat bit to the east of Drumguish heading towards Ruthven Barracks) the number is larger this year, going back to what we had there about 5 years back. That moor is just recovering from a massive burn maybe four years or so back.....took out almost all the low ground heather.....and only now do we judge it good for a full load again. Its has been on half loads the last three or four years. We have another spot perhaps half a mile away up in the trees. That will be filled later this week, nothing there yet.


I don't remember a burn of that heather  moor but the very cold winter of 2012 ?  also took its toll with the very cold easterly for weeks on end "burnt" the heather, especially the older stuff that was not covered and protected by the long lying snow.  The heather took ages to recover and it just this year the new growth is looking shiny with good health


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## Calluna4u

Well its not a blossom washout everywhere........whilst there was reasonable nectar locally the last couple of days, and even where there are limes the bees are favouring other things, I sent one of my teams down to the Kincardine Bridge area today to prepare the 7 apiaries we have in that vicinity (both sides of the Forth) and they found all places full of honey. Even the new foundation added before shifting time is all drawn and full.  Lots of fresh honey and north of the bridge its all white and almost certainly clover, south of the bridge its all lime,  at three sites and clover again at another. Not able to move these now due to fresh honey and nectar on new wax, and heat. Will probably try to reclear them on Friday and get them away so they don't miss any of the Ling.

These bees were last visited about `14 days ago and had excluders removed, deeps added and extra shallows before their move to the heather. Now all needs done again. Tragic!

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## The Drone Ranger

> Lol...yes indeed. Got that a lot last year. 
> 
> ,.......drone mothers kept back at the two mating units


Hi C4u
If those drone colonies were made queenless for a while or split using your flight boards would they hang on to their young drones longer?

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## Calluna4u

Probably would. The part waiting for a queen would most likely keep a drone load for some time, all through till they were queenright with a laying queen. However, with these going off to the heather when their work is done its best not to dismember them too much. They have to go in the end, a full colony not going to the heather costs a lot in lost earnings.

Early drone eviction is not a bad trait, means they are stable for the season after that, which cuts down work. Just a shame when the good colonies have bumped them off, as it increases the risk of rag, tag and bobtail drones from the local area getting a  chance at the grafted stock......

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## The Drone Ranger

I remember you pointing that out at your queen raising day C4u


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## Calluna4u

Ling started to flower (just a few clumps) at our bees near Amulree last night. Will be a lot of flower and be full on in a week. If you plant to go to0 the ling be careful not to miss it.

When investigated yesterday by two other teams working here it was found the Kincardine Bridge area flow had been rather (ok ... greatly) exaggerated..............no stripping needed....just looked good after the weeks of dearth.

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## Calluna4u

Finished moving the Scottish based bees to the heather this morning, bar one lot going later once their job as drone mothers at the second mating unit is done. 2200 colonies plus 900 splits on the moors now. Calluna nectar already coming in at the earliest spots, but most places its bell. Combs and combs of it like water yesterday near Braemar and Kingussie, but relatively little in other places so its still very sporadic . 

Start on the English unit tomorrow but that should only take us one week.

Last grafts come out of the finishers today and then all those colonies get reformatted back to normal hives, their main job for the season done. Those lines dropping out of the programme already removed off to the heather and back into the general pool. The active management season is virtually over.

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## Duncan

We are having a very long and hot summer here in Cyprus with 35C+ everyday for the last 6 weeks.  The bees and the beekeeper are really feeling the heat even at 1800 hours. The hive is a cell starter hive packed with young worker bees it has an excluder between the floor and the chamber.
It is hot.jpgStarter hive feeling the heat.jpg

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## fatshark

If we're talking about weather I can recommend Windy Wilson. The most recent forecast for Scotland is:

"_WEEKEND . . . . . .
Windy says check oot ma crayons below
Saturday AND Sunday are very similar with a cold north westerly blowing in, bringing with it a "fresh feel" and rain to the NORTH WEST of Scotland, with a fair bit of cloud as well . . . although the rain might creep further SOUTH as the day / weekend goes on
At the moment though, the worst of any sh*t will be up in the NORTH WEST, with the opposite corner (the south east) seeing the best of any brightness
That is all_"

Succinct and to the point. Not looking too clever for Kate, but probably OK for Gavin ...

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## fatshark

If we're talking about weather I can recommend Windy Wilson. The most recent forecast for Scotland is:

"_WEEKEND . . . . . .
Windy says check oot ma crayons below
Saturday AND Sunday are very similar with a cold north westerly blowing in, bringing with it a "fresh feel" and rain to the NORTH WEST of Scotland, with a fair bit of cloud as well . . . although the rain might creep further SOUTH as the day / weekend goes on
At the moment though, the worst of any sh*t will be up in the NORTH WEST, with the opposite corner (the south east) seeing the best of any brightness
That is all_"

Succinct and to the point. Not looking too clever for Kate, but probably OK for Gavin ...

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## Calluna4u

Was up at the moors yesterday through the west Perthshire and Speyside range. The Ling is about 5% out in most parts of the range and even as much as 25% out in sheltered southern parts. Should be plentiful flower throughout most of August in many areas, but reckon the earliest spots will be finished by about the 20th or so and those places will be at peak flower by next weekend.

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## gavin

Just wanted to say that I'm finding your posts very helpful, Murray.  Was chatting with another forum member on the occasion of the two of us being interviewed for Radio Scotland's Out of Doors in Glen Clova and we agreed that it is great to see the reports from you on what's happening in the hills and beyond.

The piece might be used in next Saturday's broadcast and Mark Stephen has already put some video on their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/bbc.out.of....2407891460940/

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## Mellifera Crofter

Nice little video, Gavin.

I'm curious about the bees' entrance to your Swienty.  I can't figure it out.  It looks as though the entire broodbox is raised by a bee space above the floor - or was that just a temporary thing while you were manipulating the colony?

Kitta

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## gavin

Hi Kitta

Maybe just an illusion caused by the shadow of the box above?  They are just standard (old-style) Swienty/Denrosa boxes sitting straight on standard floors.  That colony belongs to the East of Scotland Beekeepers Association.  My own are mostly the new design of Swienty polyhives with some wooden Nationals.  

There is an unpainted floor in the background.  It was pressed into service in a hurry about 3 years ago and we've still not got around to painting it .... 

G.

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## madasafish

I see you are using my smoker Gavin :-)

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## Kate Atchley

> I see you are using my smoker Gavin :-)


I put one just like it aside a year ago (and took it out to use this evening 'cos I'd left it where I untied the dog at an out-apiary). When I used it the bees they would invariably go into a frenzy, stinging the leather bellows, sometimes mistaking my hands for the bellows as I held it. Goodness knows what they used to cure the hide.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Why do bees nibble at foundation?  Were they hungry?

(Camera photo - it's a bit out of focus.)

Kitta

nibbled comb IMG_20160730_152402.jpg

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## fatshark

Bored? I usually see this when there's no flow on. I've always assumed they're trying to improve lateral routes through the colony. In a similar way, they will draw out a foundationless frame and not join it to the bottom (and sometimes side) bar.

20140629-0002.jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

I hope so, Fatshark - bored, and creating passageways, rather than hungry.

That's a nicely-drawn comb.  No   nibbling there.

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## Calluna4u

Not trying to second guess bee thought processes but this does not happen when there is a flow on or feeding is being done.

I suspect that although it looks like they are chewing the wax (and indeed are) I suspect the main issue is that they don't like metal and are actually trying to remove it, and the removal of the wax along the wires is just so they can attempt the futile task of wire chewing. If the wire is poorly embedded you often see the wire pattern manifesting itself as a line of gaps in the brood for example. A feed or a decent flow and they will still make a decent comb of that one Kitta.

A second reason can be that they are utilising the wax elsewhere. They do move it around a bit from time to time, again usually when there is no flow or feed to stimulate wax secretion.

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## Kate Atchley

> Not trying to second guess bee thought processes but this does not happen when there is a flow on or feeding is being done. ... A second reason can be that they are utilising the wax elsewhere. They do move it around a bit from time to time, again usually when there is no flow or feed to stimulate wax secretion.


Yes, bees try to avoid steel wires but Murray's last suggestion seems to explain most of the wax-moving-chewing I've witnessed. 

I think the bees are using the wax for whatever is most important for the colony at the time and that may mean moving wax from elsewhere if incoming nectar is absent or wax-builders scarce. Fat shark's pic of a well-drawn comb with no side and base connecting wax/foundation suggests this was drawn initially when the flow was poor and, when forage improved, the bees were able to complete the frame and fill it with brood.

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## gavin

> I see you are using my smoker Gavin :-)


You can have it back!




> I put one just like it aside a year ago (and took it out to use this evening 'cos I'd left it where I untied the dog at an out-apiary). When I used it the bees they would invariably go into a frenzy, stinging the leather bellows, sometimes mistaking my hands for the bellows as I held it. Goodness knows what they used to cure the hide.


Yes, these smokers are awful in every way.  That hook on the spout is nearly as weak as aluminium foil and is utterly useless.  The hinge for the spout is poor.  The bellows on mine also incited a sting-fest so I stripped the stings off with sticky tape then covered the leather in clear sticky tape and now the bees don't react to it.

Thankfully Thorne no longer sell that one.  I'll have a word with Santa about one of those expensive Dadant smokers.

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## Kate Atchley

> ... Fat shark's pic of a well-drawn comb with no side and base connecting wax/foundation suggests this was drawn initially when the flow was poor and, when forage improved, the bees were able to complete the frame and fill it with brood.


On second thoughts, Fatshark's frame looks as though it's beekeeper-wired, so presumably drawn without foundation, or maybe just a strip. These are drawn downwards in an expanding rounded form and often don't become fully attached to the frame around the sides and base. So maybe no nibbling took place.

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## Kate Atchley

> You can have it back!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, these smokers are awful in every way.  That hook on the spout is nearly as weak as aluminium foil and is utterly useless.  The hinge for the spout is poor.  The bellows on mine also incited a sting-fest so I stripped the stings off with sticky tape then covered the leather in clear sticky tape and now the bees don't react to it.
> 
> Thankfully Thorne no longer sell that one.  I'll have a word with Santa about one of those expensive Dadant smokers.


It's hard to find smokers without leather bellows now. Ah ... used not to be the case. I'll post Santa to the SS one I recently bought from Thornes ... think it's the one you're leaving space for in your stocking Gavin.

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## wee willy

My Dadant smoker has been in use plus 25 years , the bellows are mock leather ( leatherette ) no probs with stinging . 
Nothing's fallen off save one nut holding bellows to canister . 


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## fatshark

> I'll have a word with Santa about one of those expensive Dadant smokers.


But be aware that the photo they show on Thorne's website isn't the one they actually supply (or wasn't ... this info is a year out of date). Dadant do one with a heat guard on the back of the box which is what Thorne's show on the site. It's not what was sent (but was a gift so couldn't go back). 

M5014-500x500.jpg20151020-36.jpg

But it's still an excellent smoker ...

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## fatshark

> On second thoughts, Fatshark's frame looks as though it's beekeeper-wired, so presumably drawn without foundation, or maybe just a strip. These are drawn downwards in an expanding rounded form and often don't become fully attached to the frame around the sides and base. So maybe no nibbling took place.


That's exactly what it is Kate ... foundationless, with strong monofilament 'wires'. There's a sort of channel across the frame running horizontally where the lower 'wire' is, almost certainly because the frame wasn't quite vertical and they couldn't incorporate it properly. When they draw these frames out - from a 1cm starter strip - they almost always leave space round the bottom third of the frame as shown.

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## madasafish

> You can have it back!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, these smokers are awful in every way.  That hook on the spout is nearly as weak as aluminium foil and is utterly useless.  The hinge for the spout is poor.  The bellows on mine also incited a sting-fest so I stripped the stings off with sticky tape then covered the leather in clear sticky tape and now the bees don't react to it.
> 
> Thankfully Thorne no longer sell that one.  I'll have a word with Santa about one of those expensive Dadant smokers.


Mine does not attract stings at all. I bought on ebay for c £15 six years ago.

I cover the grip with masking tape  to avoid propolis and replace that regularly. The rivets are rubbish and I have reworked the spout holder  and replaced the rivets. It works OK.

I never hang my smoker on anything having a  mini wooden stand to avoid crop circles on my lawn :-)

Edit: I am mean (edukated in Aberdeen ) so I am still using the same jacket , smoker and home made hive tool since I started in 2010.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks C4U, Kate - it did not occur to me that they might be re-using the wax.  Apart from no nectar flow, the bees were so often hive-bound around here that I was worried I might have overlooked them being short of food.  I don't think they were - so, happy to know they were having fun, reworking the wax, fighting with the wire - and not desperately eating wax.
Kitta

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## gavin

I'd managed to forget that I'd ordered one of these from Paynes in their winter sale:



And last night, rummaging deep in the foam chips in an unopened box, I managed to find it.  Also the free sample of their Cottage Chutney :-)  It isn't quite a Dadant but it looks good so Santa will have to think of something else.  A Unimog, a purpose build modern extracting suite, a new back (!), something like that  .....

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## emcampbell

> Just wanted to say that I'm finding your posts very helpful, Murray.  Was chatting with another forum member on the occasion of the two of us being interviewed for Radio Scotland's Out of Doors in Glen Clova and we agreed that it is great to see the reports from you on what's happening in the hills and beyond.
> 
> The piece might be used in next Saturday's broadcast and Mark Stephen has already put some video on their Facebook page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/bbc.out.of....2407891460940/


Was great fun recording it Gavin. Apologies in advance for lack of AFB knowledge on my behalf....was a bit vague on some of my responses to Marks questions.  Gav covered for me well though  :Smile:  

Hopefully I don't come across as too much of an idiot ! I do hope they use the bit of us ripping into Manuka honey though...and the waggle dance app (tm).

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## Calluna4u

Very end of seasonish feel to things today.............weather like mid September and  a series of stormy autumn like lows expected to single northern UK out over the next 10 days or so. Wasps starting to hit the mating boxes hard at home base, and soon they will be untenable unless strong. Ho hum.  The second mating unit having less issues so far and a really good success rate, better than the original place. 

Off to the moors tomorrow afternoon to see if any progress and check advancement of the heather. Shifting almost finished....about 100 to go.

Placing the autumn syrup order next week...................

----------


## greengumbo

> Very end of seasonish feel to things today.............weather like mid September and  a series of stormy autumn like lows expected to single northern UK out over the next 10 days or so. Wasps starting to hit the mating boxes hard at home base, and soon they will be untenable unless strong. Ho hum.  The second mating unit having less issues so far and a really good success rate, better than the original place. 
> 
> Off to the moors tomorrow afternoon to see if any progress and check advancement of the heather. Shifting almost finished....about 100 to go.
> 
> Placing the autumn syrup order next week...................


Definite autumnal feel today up here. Anyone been out and about in Strathdon / Cockbridge area can give me heather updates - stupid car is in the garage so only moving hives this week.

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## Greengage

Some day Iam going to visit scotland just to see what its like in the highlands, the reason I dont go in summer is I have heard so much about midges. life is too short and Ive too little holidays but I will go. Its on my list of places to visit.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> Some day Iam going to visit scotland just to see what its like in the highlands, the reason I dont go in summer is I have heard so much about midges. life is too short and Ive too little holidays but I will go. Its on my list of places to visit.


Great plan Greengage. Midges usually appear in June or so come in May when everything's fresh and a there's multitude of different greens around? Come visit? We're a bit off the beaten track but all the more beautiful for that.

----------


## Greengage

Great a friend of mine just got a job in Duff town looks off the beaten track too so now I have to go and will go further North too.

----------


## Jimbo

Dufftown is just down the road and you don't get the midges like you get in the west
Also full of whisky distilleries and one of my heather sites
Should come next month as the SBA conference is in Elgin which is just up the road from Dufftown


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## mbc

> I'd managed to forget that I'd ordered one of these from Paynes in their winter sale:
> 
> 
> 
> And last night, rummaging deep in the foam chips in an unopened box, I managed to find it.  Also the free sample of their Cottage Chutney :-)  It isn't quite a Dadant but it looks good so Santa will have to think of something else.  A Unimog, a purpose build modern extracting suite, a new back (!), something like that  .....


Those foam chips piss me off, we're supposed to be environmentally concious beekeepers for heavens sake! I have to say I think thornes do a better job of their packaging with the shredded cardboard, much more palatable to my mind.
P's.  Midges of any nationality piss me off, having been eaten alive by Scottish , Irish and Welsh mides,  I'd say the Scottish ones are the more muscular.

----------


## fatshark

> ... so Santa will have to think of something else.  A Unimog ...


Get one ... though perhaps tricky when searching for a parking spot outside Dundee methodist Hall for the ESBA meetings.

----------


## gavin

OK, we'll just have to switch our meetings to the Caird Hall.  You can get hundreds in there and park a tank in the square outside if you so wish.    :Wink: 

The ling in the Eastern Angus glens isn't fully out yet, just some tufts here and there.  Was up there today (thanks for the help Harry).

Yesterday they were hitting the Himalayan balsam round the Tay inbetween the showers.  It seems these flowers are well protected from rain and the brighter gaps between the showers were good enough for some enthusiastic foraging. 

There are a few km of Rudbeckia along the river at one of my sites and they were working that too.  I never imagined I'd get Rudbeckia honey .... not getting a decent sample this year either but they were working that too.

----------


## greengumbo

> OK, we'll just have to switch our meetings to the Caird Hall.  You can get hundreds in there and park a tank in the square outside if you so wish.   
> 
> The ling in the Eastern Angus glens isn't fully out yet, just some tufts here and there.  Was up there today (thanks for the help Harry).
> 
> Yesterday they were hitting the Himalayan balsam round the Tay inbetween the showers.  It seems these flowers are well protected from rain and the brighter gaps between the showers were good enough for some enthusiastic foraging. 
> 
> There are a few km of Rudbeckia along the river at one of my sites and they were working that too.  I never imagined I'd get Rudbeckia honey .... not getting a decent sample this year either but they were working that too.


Sounds good Gavin. Moved some of mine up to Strathdon last night - bell started and ling still about so fingers crossed for less of this autumnal weather.

Anyone got good tips on closing up those swienty entrances in the rain ? My usual sneaking up on them and duck taping the entrance was a shambles. Ended up doing the best I could then loading them into the trailer asap. Pinned correx might work but the entrances have those wee side bits on each end so a single sheet isn't good enough.

Sponge ? But where to get ?

Bloomin' bees always posing new engineering problems.

----------


## Kate Atchley

> ... Anyone got good tips on closing up those swienty entrances in the rain ? My usual sneaking up on them and duck taping the entrance was a shambles. Ended up doing the best I could then loading them into the trailer asap. Pinned correx might work but the entrances have those wee side bits on each end so a single sheet isn't good enough.
> 
> Sponge ? But where to get ? ...


Yes, I find foam much the easiest to use and most secure. Can cut it to fit and it stays put. 

This foam place in Edinburgh has inexpensive offcuts (I used to live nearby): http://foamcentre.org.uk. There must be others or online. You may find some 20mm square strips which cut in half for Swienty entrances or as they are for wooden hives.

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## Calluna4u

> Sponge ? But where to get ?


Any upholsterer. They generally stock the foam in sheets and will cut you a piece (its the one inch size you need) to the correct width you ask for (always make it a couple of inches longer than the entrance).

----------


## greengumbo

> Any upholsterer. They generally stock the foam in sheets and will cut you a piece (its the one inch size you need) to the correct width you ask for (always make it a couple of inches longer than the entrance).


Cheers Murray and Kate.

I have the odd bit of sponge from a few years ago that fits but with an upturn in hive numbers I am after more. Will get some and practice using it before I need to shift a load of hives  :Smile:

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## Feckless Drone

The bloody foam!. I found you really need be "assertive" with the hive tool when pushing the foam into the Swienty entrances. Late on a wet Wednesday evening and with a bit of water spraying on the entrance I persuaded the bees to go indoors. But, you have to be careful not to dislodge the foam by accidentally tugging on the extra length that extrudes from the side or you make a small gap and then guess what happens early on a Thursday morning? Answer: you lose all credibility with your first born who reminds you about saying how straightforward this all is and then sits in the car with veil on for the drive.

A pity nobody sells the older heather hives where the bottom can simply be screwed shut. What I want is a poly-box, National, able to link boxes, travel screen and then roof together rather then strap them, with OMF that can adjusted to close up the entrance and with two settings - open but no mice, or closed.

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## fatshark

> ... always make it a couple of inches longer than the entrance ...


... to maximise the chances of snagging it with the next hive you add, thereby providing a wee gap for the little blighters to make a break for it as you barrel up the A9 dodging speed cameras  :Wink: 

PS FD beat me to it and described the situation perfectly ... I use a push-in L-shaped wooden block. Takes no time to fit. Friction-fit for quick jobs (vaporising) or screwed/taped in place for complete confidence on long trips (though there's also the dozen or two under the OMF you forgot about).

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I'm distressed this evening and really, really annoyed with myself.  After reading so often about, 'just bang them together' with smoke or some lavender sugar water or something like that, and having done it once successfully, I united two colonies this afternoon and it resulted in a horrible war that I couldn't stop.

I now realise that the reason the previous unite was ok, was because one colony was hopelessly queenless.  Today's was different.  One was queenless, but with a queen cell that I destroyed, thinking with all this terrible weather we're having, that queen doesn't stand much of a chance of getting mated - so I reunited them with the mother colony.  Big mistake.  I'll never ever ever do that again.

Can't say I feel better confessing this ...
Kitta

----------


## mbc

Putting bees together is fine to do when joining lots up a frame here and a frame there from different hives, but when joining them together with a box which isn't moving, on home turf as it were, I go with newspaper every time, sometimes (most times) it's probably unnecessary,  but it's so reliable at avoiding fighting it's worth it for the occasion when the paper stops any  defensiveness from the home colony triggering a war. I try and always keep an old broadsheet in the truck.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Ouch! I tend to use belt and braces ... newspaper, like mvc, _and_ lavender-scented light syrup spray (keep it ready in my bee kit). Also make sure a queenless colony knows it is, if possible. So removing the old queen or QCs at least an hour or so ahead. Very upsetting Kitta and I hope the queen is none the worse for the experience and gives you some good winter bees.

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## Calluna4u

Dispensed with the newspaper years back.

We reunite, without dequeening one part, at the heather.

However.....sugar water or lavender scented water are definitely inadequate. Far too delicate. They do not override the scent difference.

A LIBERAL spraying with a proprietry brand of airfreshener is required on both the top bars of the bottom unit and the underside of the top one. 

I was a sceptic at first when it was demonstrated to me by Andrew Scobbie senior. It does really work. Will be doing it in excess of 1000 times over the next few weeks as we put the splits and their mothers back together.

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## The Drone Ranger

Thanks for reminding me not to chance things Kitta 
I get my fingers burned trying shortcuts regularly and no doubt there will be some combining to be done soon
Last one was introducing a queen to a queenless hive
Test frame in ,knock off the queen cells after a few days
Queen goes in with cage she gets accepted (clever old me)
She disappears and a blooming great queen cell replaces her
Moral of the story (I think) don't give them options 

Anyway that was one of my home raised (no cost £) queens

How about this direct intro method at £45 a go 
http://www.lasiqueenbees.com/blog/hi...-without-cages

Might have a few practice runs first with my own CABI bees (Carni,amm,buckfast,italian) taxi !!!


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## Mellifera Crofter

Thank you all.  I felt sick in my tummy seeing the sad little carpet of dead bees this morning.  I'll open the hive in a few days' time to see if the queen survived that mayhem.

So, never again, but I'd like to know what you're using that's so effective, C4U (should one worry about what's in the air-freshener?).  And I'll follow your example and carry some newspapers in the car, MBC (Kate's belt and braces approach).

I read about that LASI queen introduction, DR - but when I introduced some virgin queens earlier this summer, I still played safe and used a cage even though the nuc had been queenless for about four days.  They all survived and are laying - so that is a good note in my otherwise sad report.

Kitta

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## madasafish

I use air freshener following Murray's advice years ago.

Airwick 6 in 1. Smell : immaterial.
Small print says "natural propellants".

Works fine : no dead bees.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Madasafish, I'll buy that and keep it handy.  No more warring bees.
Kitta

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## Feckless Drone

> A LIBERAL spraying with a proprietry brand of airfreshener is required on both the top bars of the bottom unit and the underside of the top one.


Questions for your C4U. At the stage after applying the freshener - do you just put one box on top and leave for a few days then rearrange frames? Or just blast and put frames together? Or winter on double brood?

I'm now checking that hives are Q-right and pretty much going to stop full inspections but try to make good decisions about what to keep, what to unite. I've one 2015 Q (wintered in a poly-nuc after two-frame mating setup) who has not tried to swarm, decent colony, heavy super but the colony still has drones and drone brood. Other colonies have only worker brood and no drones present. Not sure if this represents low swarming trait or just that the colony was not at full strength in the spring and is lagging behind. I'll do another few inspections of this colony to monitor it as it could be a good Q to breed from. I've a 2016 Q and finally worked up the courage to see if her three Q-cells were an attempt at supercedure rather than interfere. A new Q was due to start flying yesterday and depending on outcome this is a hive that I might try the air freshener with. Week looks OK for mating flights.  

Overall, I think colonies have done well this year on Tayside and still the prospect of heather crop to come.

----------


## fatshark

Fifers should keep an eye on their nucs ... lots more wasp activity over the last few days and stores in a few of mine were getting very low. Whatever was coming in isn't any longer.

----------


## fatshark

... and a quick follow-up to my last post re. feeding nucs. Before I moved to Scotland I bought bulk fondant from BFP Wholesale. They *had* an outlet in Livingstone. BFP Wholesale have gone into administration, and the Livingstone branch was bought by a company called EFP Ltd.

Has anyone yet dealt with EDP Ltd?
Has anyone bought fondant in reasonable quantities (say 150-200kg) elsewhere?
Any recommendations?

----------


## gavin

Sad news.  The only other bakery wholesaler - forget its name - was in Cumbernauld and closed perhaps a decade ago.

----------


## Calluna4u

> ... and a quick follow-up to my last post re. feeding nucs. Before I moved to Scotland I bought bulk fondant from BFP Wholesale. They *had* an outlet in Livingstone. BFP Wholesale have gone into administration, and the Livingstone branch was bought by a company called EFP Ltd.
> 
> Has anyone yet dealt with EDP Ltd?
> Has anyone bought fondant in reasonable quantities (say 150-200kg) elsewhere?
> Any recommendations?


Never dealt with either.

Always bought my fondant from BAKO or Fleming Howden. Their prices were always good for beekeepers..........but don't take the first price they offer on the phone. That's a list price...........significant discounts available from that when pressed (like first jump alone dropped price by 40%!)

Both do good grade white fondant. Fleming Howdens 'premier' grade is perfect for bees.

Its almost all (whatever brand you buy) made in one of two factories in Belgium nowadays, and just client badged.

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## Calluna4u

> Questions for your C4U. At the stage after applying the freshener - do you just put one box on top and leave for a few days then rearrange frames? Or just blast and put frames together? Or winter on double brood?
> 
> I'm now checking that hives are Q-right and pretty much going to stop full inspections but try to make good decisions about what to keep, what to unite. I've one 2015 Q (wintered in a poly-nuc after two-frame mating setup) who has not tried to swarm, decent colony, heavy super but the colony still has drones and drone brood. Other colonies have only worker brood and no drones present. Not sure if this represents low swarming trait or just that the colony was not at full strength in the spring and is lagging behind. I'll do another few inspections of this colony to monitor it as it could be a good Q to breed from. I've a 2016 Q and finally worked up the courage to see if her three Q-cells were an attempt at supercedure rather than interfere. A new Q was due to start flying yesterday and depending on outcome this is a hive that I might try the air freshener with. Week looks OK for mating flights.  
> 
> Overall, I think colonies have done well this year on Tayside and still the prospect of heather crop to come.


We tend to do it at the heather and just spray both side of the interface and stick them together. The bees then generally fill in the empty frames them fill in down behind them so not much sorting to do.

We have had lots of colonies evict the drones way earlier than usual. I don't think its a bad trait in general hives but it a bummer in the mating yard where (a few) chosen drone mothers are now devoid of drones. Largely it means that the colony itself is now stable for the season as they now have no use for drones and thus new queens preparations are over. Oddly I might be a bit more concerned about the one that is still making drone brood.....but concerned in a very minor way, probably ranks about 97 in the list of the top hundred things to worry about. (Non existent list btw before anyone asks.)

We finished nest examinations about 5 weeks ago at the point we give then unlimited space. The number that swarm after that are not viable to look for and frankly, as they do not fit into our ways of management, are no great loss.

Fatshark mentions the nucs. It is an issue here too and the queens are trying to ease back laying somewhat. As the brood in the outer frames hatches they are not relaying in those faces and they are starting to tighten in the stores arc round the nest. Stimulative feeding needed to keep them going forward AND to avoid starvation setting in. It has been a very autumnal spell and hopefully the weather itself will reverse this in the coming days, but this better spell has been long predicted but when we get to within a few days of it it fades away and a new set of low pressure areas appear instead. Shame as the heather looks SO good. Was a potential klondyke up to a week ago, still has the potential to be well above average, but the earliest areas have about 10 days left before the flowering is in decline.

I would agree that the bees have indeed done well (for themselves) and are off to the heather in generally not too bad condition. Honey yield is a different matter but then the way we manage the bees blossom honey is essentially a by product, with the heather being the goal from day one. Our blossom yield was looking like it would be good, but then we went *seven weeks* with no nectar and much was eaten (costs me 30K to do a full round of feeding so we are careful not to over harvest the OSR) and the end result is a much below average early season honey crop.

If its any consolation the unit of hives in England was even worse! No honey at all until the last three weeks, and the hot weather fell smack in the middle of the gap. No nectar and lots of swarming and robbing in the middle of a heatwave.

Our best areas this year would be a small pocket west of Edinburgh (and even two miles away it was poor), Crieff, and the area round the Kincardine Bridge.

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## Feckless Drone

> I might be a bit more concerned about the one that is still making drone brood.....but concerned in a very minor way, probably ranks about 97 in the list of the top hundred things to worry about.


Thanks C4U. If I remember correctly you use deeps for the heather crop as well so I can see how this works. And yes I'm uneasy about that 16 month old Q still with drone brood mainly because that nest is now different from all the others. I maybe should unite and get rid but will probably just monitor and see how she is going into and through winter - if she does not do a runner (she's clipped) or gets bumped off before then. I don't want to interfere too much at this point because they have to cap off the stores for me.

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## Emma

> I united two colonies this afternoon and it resulted in a horrible war that I couldn't stop.
> Kitta


I can so sympathise, Kitta. I seem to manage at least one new disaster a year. I console myself by trying to learn fast and never making the same mistake again. But I find brand new ones instead. Last year it was when I united two warm-way colonies. I used newspaper, always do. But with warm way, and a dummy board, there's sometimes a space at the back with no frames of bees underneath it. To the bees above that gap, it must have seemed like a clever way out of the trap, a way outside without confronting the alien colony. So they chewed a small hole through and slipped through, one by one... only to find that they were in alien territory and that the only way outside was past a massed rank of frames full of unfriendly bees. Hundreds died. Very horrible. So now I put a sheet of hard plastic at the back, & every time I do it I think: never again.
The other way I console myself, of course, is that hundreds of thousands of bees have emerged and thrived through my efforts, and a fair handful of colonies & queens have found their way into the wider world along the way. I'm sure you've achieved the same.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Emma - I'll follow your thoughts, and console myself likewise.  I now have newspapers and Airwick 6 in 1 in the car.

I've been to check them this morning, and the queen survived the mayhem.  She is there and laying.   

Kitta

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## Emma

> Thanks Emma - I'll follow your thoughts, and console myself likewise.  I now have newspapers and Airwick 6 in 1 in the car.
> 
> I've been to check them this morning, and the queen survived the mayhem.  She is there and laying.   
> 
> Kitta


Yay! - so the colony survives. That's their number one goal achieved then, for a start. Lovely news.

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## SDM

Has anyone heard about this ? Why did he need 1000 litres of feed for 10 hives ?
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...00-honey-bees/

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## greengumbo

> Has anyone heard about this ? Why did he need 1000 litres of feed for 10 hives ?
> https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news...00-honey-bees/


He probably bought enough for a good few seasons. We have an IBC of invert syrup that we use for 20 hives only. Still got plenty for the next few years.

We don't import ours all the way from the states though ! Pretty easy to get hold of in the UK for far cheaper than this article suggests.

Pretty annoying for the owner though.

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## The Drone Ranger

Did you have a forklift to move your IBC when it was delivered GG ?

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## greengumbo

> Did you have a forklift to move your IBC when it was delivered GG ?
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Not my own but yes used a forklift. How do you move yours Gavin ?

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## The Drone Ranger

I've always wondered how people get them set up at a sensible height to use
I assumed you would need something like a forklift and a stand of some kind

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## gavin

> Not my own but yes used a forklift. How do you move yours Gavin ?


Bent knees, clamp arms around the thing, close to the chest ... and .... lift!!

No wonder I have a bad back  :Wink: .

The first time an IBC was delivered onsite by the supplier (onto a stack of pallets) by a mystery means he was trying for the first time.  He seemed keen that I *wasn't* there but I've seen him since so he did survive!  The second time syrup was decanted into an empty IBC on a trailer and once on site a friendly farmer shifted it with a forklift.

Just wanted to add that we've talked of getting a pump for future moves of syrup off a trailer IBC and into an IBC on a stack.

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## gavin

> Just wanted to say that I'm finding your posts very helpful, Murray.  Was chatting with another forum member on the occasion of the two of us being interviewed for Radio Scotland's Out of Doors in Glen Clova and we agreed that it is great to see the reports from you on what's happening in the hills and beyond.
> 
> The piece might be used in next Saturday's broadcast and Mark Stephen has already put some video on their Facebook page:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/bbc.out.of....2407891460940/



They broadcast part 1 this morning (on bee diseases) and I'm told part 2 will be next Saturday.

Skip on to 17 min if you must but the whole programme is essential listening for anyone with an interest in the outdoors in Scotland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07nn3rs#play

I thought that you came across very well Ewan  :Smile: 

Piece on Himalayan balsam just before (11 min) the one on bees.

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## emcampbell

Cheers Gavin. I sounded much more calm than I did last night after opening up a particularly nasty hive after moving it ! I'm glad they cut the bit where I said "ahhh um er I dont really know"!.

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## gavin

> I'm glad they cut the bit where I said "ahhh um er I dont really know"!.


Shhh!!

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## Feckless Drone

Still some lime trees in Dundee yielding - bees at it before 8 am. Nectar drops visible on Himalyan balsm on Balgay hill, and I'm told the heather in the Angus glens is stunning this year. Must try to get up and have look.

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## gavin

I was also surprised at the odd lime tree still being in full flower at the Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh yesterday.  They're also in full flower in Glen Prosen.  

Stopped off at an apiary near the Tay on the way back and the bees were excitedly flying back from the Himalayan balsam.  Not much weight increase in the hive though, they're just recovering from a dearth.

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## chris

> Still some lime trees in Dundee yielding .


This afternoon I spent some time lazing in a hamac tied to a couple of limes. The leaves are already turning brown and drifting off on the breeze. Oh to be in Scotland   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## gavin

> This afternoon I spent some time lazing in a hamac tied to a couple of limes. The leaves are already turning brown and drifting off on the breeze. Oh to be in Scotland


The way the sun was beating down here today we'll be dried to a crisp soon too.

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## gavin

> .... and I'm told the heather in the Angus glens is stunning this year. Must try to get up and have look.


You'd better believe it.  I need 10 more supers at one site (in the same Glen as yours) as they've largely filled the one they had when they went up a week ago (rather late, back problem).  Delicious smell of heather honey in the apiary.

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## SDM

Same in Snowdonia, not 5 days up there and theyre capping the first box.
Bring it on.

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## Feckless Drone

> Delicious smell of heather honey in the apiary.


Oh! I'm going to have to get some supers organized then and pop up for a look. The problem is the work schedule and weather forecast. Gavin - did you put a clearer board on or just pop the next super under the filling one?

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## gavin

> Oh! I'm going to have to get some supers organized then and pop up for a look. The problem is the work schedule and weather forecast. Gavin - did you put a clearer board on or just pop the next super under the filling one?


I didn't have supers with me but will go up with them tomorrow.  They'll go on top for most hives but for hives with cut comb supers that are near completion they'll go underneath.  I don't use clearer boards (yet!) but just shake back into the colony (with an empty super in place) and brush off the few remaining bees, frame by frame.

The polystyrene hives were doing really well but the wooden ones (up there a week longer) less well.  It could well be that the site the poly ones came from (and the fact they were polys) allowed more brood rearing in the weeks prior to moving them up, not sure.  Last year it was the same - a better crop on the poly hives compared to the wooden ones (different early summer sites than this year).

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## gavin

Yup, a super in five days may have been possible here too depending on the strength of the colony.  Mine were single broods with single supers prior to the move and from which the honey had been harvested and the bees shaken into an empty super placed on top.  In other words not particularly strong but good enough.  And now the weather is even better ....

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## busybeephilip

Gavin,  I do feel jealous, sometimes I wish there was heather at my back door

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## SDM

> Yup, a super in five days may have been possible here too depending on the strength of the colony.  Mine were single broods with single supers prior to the move and from which the honey had been harvested and the bees shaken into an empty super placed on top.  In other words not particularly strong but good enough.  And now the weather is even better ....


Double broods with mostly 3 supers before being prepped for the journey . I've since picked up a better site( I think) about 400ft lower in altitude and denser heather. I've got another 6 ready to go up in the morning.
I kept thinking the other day that I should have taken the honey and ran. I may have had more then than I'll have at the end.  With forage in short supply at sea level they can only do better on the hill. Some equally strong Colonies have taken zip in a week of good weather in their home apiaries.
Supers off for the rest, treatments and feeding for them now.
1 site is a 2hr round trip for me , the other half that. So not exactly at my door. But this heather season has ... potential.

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## greengumbo

> Double broods with mostly 3 supers before being prepped for the journey . I've since picked up a better site( I think) about 400ft lower in altitude and denser heather. I've got another 6 ready to go up in the morning.
> I kept thinking the other day that I should have taken the honey and ran. I may have had more then than I'll have at the end.  With forage in short supply at sea level they can only do better on the hill. Some equally strong Colonies have taken zip in a week of good weather in their home apiaries.
> Supers off for the rest, treatments and feeding for them now.
> 1 site is a 2hr round trip for me , the other half that. So not exactly at my door. But this heather season has ... potential.


Hmmmm I thought I was late getting some of mine to heather a few weeks back but I am now sorely tempted to move the remaining ones up on Saturday if you guys are suggesting its not too late. Heather does look very promising surrounding my site.

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## StephenBlacklaw

Hi everyone I am a new Member, I Joined the ESBA this year and I am eager to take my Bees to the Heather however I am finding it very difficult to find a spot. I have 3 hives 2 are fairly small one is double brood box. If anyone can help me find a spot it would be very much appreciated. thanks

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## gavin

> They broadcast part 1 this morning (on bee diseases) and I'm told part 2 will be next Saturday.
> 
> Skip on to 17 min if you must but the whole programme is essential listening for anyone with an interest in the outdoors in Scotland:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07nn3rs#play
> 
> I thought that you came across very well Ewan 
> 
> Piece on Himalayan balsam just before (11 min) the one on bees.


In case anyone missed it this morning, another two pieces in this morning's excellent Out of Doors.  I wouldn't be promoting it here unless I was pleased with the outcome :-) 

Around 45 min and 1 hr 14 min 30 secs but, as usual, the whole show is worth a listen.  Mark has put the video back up on top of their Facebook page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07pdp9j#play

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## The Drone Ranger

Autumn conference in Elgin £40 I though that would be free as part of the membership benefits
Probably reading it wrong and thats just if you attend the talks ?

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## Feckless Drone

How refreshing to hear (Out of doors) sensible discussion about bees and beekeeping on radio Scotland; then to read (The Courier) more common sense and good publicity with an article on one of the ESBA members, one Derek Uchman.

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## The Drone Ranger

If your looking for Balsam try the river Isla around Meigle

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## Calluna4u

> If your looking for Balsam try the river Isla around Meigle


I'd be a little careful on that one....yes balsam in abundance.......but its also VERY close to a persistent AFB spot. Also the fields adjacent to the balsam are subject to rapid flooding.

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## The Drone Ranger

Knew about the flooding risks next to the river the road was closed a couple of times last year
Didn't know about the AFB though
You can be pretty sure that going downstream there will be loads more balsam  :Smile: 




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## EK.Bee

> Autumn conference in Elgin £40 I though that would be free as part of the membership benefits
> Probably reading it wrong and thats just if you attend the talks ?
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


You do get lunch & break time refreshments thrown in too
It must have cost them a lot to row Tom Seeley over the Atlantic so I'm not grudging it

I do wish they'd drop the archaic send us a stamped addressed envelope for your tickets practice though
I kept forgetting to do it causing Fiona much distress (for which I offer unreserved apologies.)

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I do wish they'd drop the archaic send us a stamped addressed envelope for your tickets practice though
> I kept forgetting to do it causing Fiona much distress (for which I offer unreserved apologies.)


You can buy your tickets online, and then print them (that wasn't terribly obvious - but I got there in the end).
Kitta

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## Calluna4u

Been really busy....almost frantic...for the last few days rushing up to get more boxes on the hives. It was looking like a massive heather season.

However yesterday brought something of a reality check and there will be no more box runs for this season.

The reason is that in our earliest places, most of which are in Deeside, the heather is now about 80% brown and despite these last few days being perfect calluna conditions the main opportunity in that area has now passed. Exceptions are the places with heather in wooded country where the season will go on till the start of September, so progress will still be made but they have enough room left.

Thus our Deeside range will end up as a somewhat above average season. Not huge but a sound viable year.  Knew things were past their best when the puddles were ringed by drinking bees and the truck attracted a lot of attention. Only a couple of places like that so far but the end is close in that area.

Amulree still going strong, heather still in decent condition there and a lot of nectar the last few days.

The Dalwhinnie to Aviemore range is however having a massive heather year, one of the most intense ling flows I have seen, and its ongoing and the bees still strong enough. Boxes put on (Lang deeps) on Sunday 14th, as a precaution as the hives were not for the most part full, were full by 23rd, and at one spot they were flying strongly in light rain on Tuesday evening. Some of the places starting to look like the Manhattan skyline. Glad I chose the places for the Speyside group visit some time before, as it could look like a con job!

These days with 17 to 20C, cloudy, not too windy, and with good humidity, are perfect ling conditions. Hot and sunny less perfect unless the ground is very wet.

Wish they were all up there! All in all it will be a good heather year, but less than it might have been due to 50% of our bees being in Deeside. Third year in a row that the A9 area has been top performer.

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## SDM

Well I've no idea what an average season on the heather is, as the previous 2 yrs was a complete blank on a natural resources Wales site that was £50 for 3 weeks with the dates having to be agreed mths ahead.
This year a 2nd super was half full 3days ago and I'll take a 3rd up on Saturday as the forecast for the next week is more 17-21°C and <15kts wind.
No signs of browning, but it was close to its peak I think. From the 16 I took up, I think a 3rd full super is now very possible by next weekend for the 10 that were up there first and a 2nd for sure from the 6 on the new better site ! That would mean I could recoup every penny I've ever spent on beekeeping in the space of 3 weeks. My guess is there's nothing average about that.
The mentor that I shared a site with for the last few years must be kicking himself for deciding it wasn't worth the effort.

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## Calluna4u

> Well I've no idea what an average season on the heather is, as the previous 2 yrs was a complete blank on a natural resources Wales site that was £50 for 3 weeks with the dates having to be agreed mths ahead.
> This year a 2nd super was half full 3days ago and I'll take a 3rd up on Saturday as the forecast for the next week is more 17-21°C and <15kts wind.
> No signs of browning, but it was close to its peak I think. From the 16 I took up, I think a 3rd full super is now very possible by next weekend for the 10 that were up there first and a 2nd for sure from the 6 on the new better site ! That would mean I could recoup every penny I've ever spent on beekeeping in the space of 3 weeks. My guess is there's nothing average about that.
> The mentor that I shared a site with for the last few years must be kicking himself for deciding it wasn't worth the effort.



For some reason Wales has a generally lower average on heather than is the normal in Scotland and more especially Yorkshire. However, two full BS supers a hive is very respectable.

Our long term average at the heather over a period of many year, records going back to the 1970's, was 42.1lb per colony. Not recalculated it for three or four years though so expect it to have edged down a sliver to maybe 41 and a bit as four of the last 5 years have been poorer than average.

From discussion with some Welsh friends I think if you are getting 25lb or more long term (from heather, this does not include other crops) you are doing ok there. Over a decade you on average will get one bumper year and one big year. One very bad (under 50%) and the rest varying between 60% and 110% of average. Its a very variable harvest.

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## Feckless Drone

> However, two full BS supers a hive is very respectable.


OK - so my ambition is to hit "respectable" on the C4U scale, not sure I'll make "very". The Angus glens where I've got a site, is to the south sort of in between the two areas C4U talks about. It an exposed site, not much bell heather and bees have to fly a bit up to the ling and (with very limited experience) I would say its been good there this year. I've been using foundation or strips, mostly in sections so that reduces my crop compared to wired/drawn comb. I put empty supers of wired foundation on my colonies yesterday, below clearer boards and full supers, ready to take off soon. I'm not expecting much more honey but would like to get some comb drawn out - see other post and following on from C4U's practice of getting the bees to do this late in the season. The colonies were putting a lot of honey in the brood boxes so potentially the Qs might have been a bit constrained. Will have to watch that. A major downside is the nature of the colonies. Bees that were lovely to work with a month or so ago are now very defensive (code for £$£%$* horrible).

I was in Deeside in July and really surprised at how much Bell heather is around up there. I am assuming that the yields C4U mentions are a combination/continuation of the two types of heather. A good site with access to both could have a really very protracted flow.

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## SDM

Everybody I've spoken to has said the Snowdonia heather is in poor condition. It's very patchy for sure, overgrazed in many places. Both land owners at my sites have mentioned not having heard a grouse for 3-5 yrs. The Natural Resources Wales policy of charging £50 for 3 weeks that they choose, even for 1 hive, can't be helping with pollination. And what is this Welsh obsession with bloody sheep ?
I suspect I'll remember this one for a while.

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## mbc

Preseli heather looking good and has flowed freely at times, my site on the beacons has been something else and has been packing in honey at a barely believable rate, every time I've popped up with more boxes I've sat and had a smoke under a steady stream of bees working hard and have thanked my lucky stars, wonderful to see bees getting stuck into a proper flow after another awkward season here with very intermittent light flows since the sycamore went over.
Looking at averaging over 60lb on the Brecon beacon bees, may not sound much to you heather gurus up there but it smashes my previous best of just under 40lb a hive, just wish my crystal ball had let me know so as I could have prepped the lot for the trip.

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## Feckless Drone

Definitely not a guru of any kind - and glad to hear about your good season down there.

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## SDM

I've just been checking the forecast for next week and after some heavy rain Saturday and Sunday, the rest of the week looks like very light winds and low 20's temps. It may be wishful thinking but I'll be taking another round of supers with me on Monday. The higher and slightly wooded of my 2 sites seemed to be at its peak last weekend, so I was thinking of bringing them home around the 15th.

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## Calluna4u

> I've just been checking the forecast for next week and after some heavy rain Saturday and Sunday, the rest of the week looks like very light winds and low 20's temps. It may be wishful thinking but I'll be taking another round of supers with me on Monday. The higher and slightly wooded of my 2 sites seemed to be at its peak last weekend, so I was thinking of bringing them home around the 15th.



2015 was a freak season, quite unprecedented in its lateness. It is NOT normal for the bees to need new supers up the hive much after say 22nd August. Having said that in some of our places we were still adding boxes up until last weekend. We expect most of the last boxes to come back empty or to be used up as 'borrow boxes'  at stripping time.

By now most bees, particularly in wooden hives, have gone from fill in up mode to fill in down, backfilling as the brood hatches out. Still reasonable nectar where the heather still has life in it, but it is now mostly going in lower down. Young queens in poly hives with good bee power still adding up top. (Speyside will see this for themselves on Sunday, weather permitting.) Some hives are VERY heavy down the hive, and second deeps in particular are just stuffed almost everywhere.

We start boarding on Wednesday next week as the full teams are back the following Monday, so some places getting boarded early so the guys do not come home empty at night.

Its a good season. Deeside a little above average, west Perthshire a tad better than that, and in Speyside its a bumper year. (estimates prior to extracting are 115, 130, 170 % of normal respectively, taken over all locations, there are ups and downs everywhere)


ps....'borrow boxes' before anyone asks, are deeps (of foundation at first) we use to take out the heaviest and oldest combs from the nest, to put in the fresh foundation that gets drawn in September and early October with the winter feeding. We use extracted combs for this after the comb drawing window (which varies by location and hive type) has passed.

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## Bridget

> You can buy your tickets online, and then print them (that wasn't terribly obvious - but I got there in the end).
> Kitta


I'm glad to hear you are going Kitta as you may be the only person I know the face of!  Look out for me



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## Mellifera Crofter

I certainly will, Bridget.  It will be nice to see you again.
Kitta

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## busybeephilip

Millions of bees dead after treatment for Zika virus !
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_...lines/37269745

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## Calluna4u

Thanks to all who turned out on an uncertain day weatherwise yesterday, and endured a thorough 'drooking' at the first place, at yesterdays heather visit near Newtonmore/Kingussie. Very polite group, good standard of questions, and the after even hospitality was excellent. I was warned it would only be a small group. In the end it was anything but, a very good turnout. I hope you all enjoyed it.....after drying out.

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## Bridget

> Thanks to all who turned out on an uncertain day weatherwise yesterday, and endured a thorough 'drooking' at the first place, at yesterdays heather visit near Newtonmore/Kingussie. Very polite group, good standard of questions, and the after even hospitality was excellent. I was warned it would only be a small group. In the end it was anything but, a very good turnout. I hope you all enjoyed it.....after drying out.


Everyone was fascinated by your hives (especially the weight of the frames!") and the most interesting show and tell. I think everyone will have been into their hives today.  Fraser came back to tell me he could see exactly what you meant by the bees filling down, perfect example in one hive which has two brood boxes and no QE. 
Lots of people mentioned the useful tips which they felt were important as they came from someone working with bees, day in day out.  The group also commented how open, you were, and that was much appreciated.  
Many many thanks, great afternoon despite the rain.  Hope you both got back ok.



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## Calluna4u

Nice photo! I did not notice anyone up the bank at the back taking pics. Permission was asked of course, so not a problem of any kind. You managed to get a shot that does not show my 'natural counterbalance'....useful for 'sumoing' heavy boxes onto Unimogs.

John from Dumfriesshire enjoyed his day too...he got home ok and has been on the phone full of ideas himself.

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## wee willy

Looks like a fair amount of ragwort in the background ?


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## Calluna4u

> Looks like a fair amount of ragwort in the background ?


We have a few patches of it around most places we go. They show little interest in it unless desperate.

Just working heather, with a few from most hives on tormentil (which they never completely abandon even during the strongest flows).

You don't get the full impression from the picture but there is heather surrounding that location on all sides which lies almost in a bowl, and there is at least one face to the sun no matter what time of day. Its is too late a picture to see it but there is also a lot of bell there, especially on a hillside just out of shot to the right. Its a very good spot.

A shame we left the place just over half full this year.........

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## Calluna4u

> Knew about the flooding risks next to the river the road was closed a couple of times last year
> Didn't know about the AFB though
> You can be pretty sure that going downstream there will be loads more balsam 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Bit late for this bit of advice......

Was at two of our units of nucs yesterday. Jolanta is away on her annual holidays and has been for four weeks and I was left in charge. I of course ran into a major heather flow and was too busy to attend to the nucs, but all the groups are deliberately sited on major areas of balsam to get late summer build up.

Thus I presumed they would be ok, and if there was an issue it would be the same one as last year, that they got too full on balsam and needed frames taking out.

Wrong. They have done precisely zilch on the balsam this year, apart from a few days that only maintained them. I find them not built up, no expansive brood rearing going on, and perilously light. They need feeding immediately, and two had actually succumbed to starvation. Not a major issue out of 350, but an embarrassment and sad to see. (This is the full 6 frame nucs I am talking about, not the mating boxes, which have been absolutely massacred by wasps in the last 3 weeks.)

Its a feeding weekend for me before 'she who worries about her babies' comes back and gives me serious grief.

Anyone else who has been relying on balsam and not bothering to look better go check their bees. The mature hives left behind as drone providers are a little better but no great shakes.  Long way from having found their winter food from balsam and lime etc.

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## The Drone Ranger

Good tip C4u its the ones with most brood who are at the greatest risk because they use up all the stores faster
Most of my bees are coming back coated white at the moment
Still feeding steadily though 



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## Feckless Drone

Surprised to hear this about the balsam. Just a couple of weeks ago you could see the nectar dripping off the flowers up on Balgay hill.

Q for you C4U (that I would have asked had I been visiting you site). If your colonies have had access to bell and ling heather honey then how do you deal with the different properties when extracting? or do you just loosen the ling and keep it all together?

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## Calluna4u

> Surprised to hear this about the balsam. Just a couple of weeks ago you could see the nectar dripping off the flowers up on Balgay hill.
> 
> Q for you C4U (that I would have asked had I been visiting you site). If your colonies have had access to bell and ling heather honey then how do you deal with the different properties when extracting? or do you just loosen the ling and keep it all together?


Just put the whole lot through the loosener and extract it in one pass. It can be messy passing bell through the loosener, and if any straight bell comes along it goes through the system without loosening. Not an issue this year as there will be no pure bell combs, the year being very heavily ling dominant.

I get the same price for both and the drums are then graded later by the trader. Some packers want high bell, others want high ling. My personal preference is a natural mix (by the bees, not done by a tank mix), maybe about 50/50, sold as a smooth set. Huge and long lasting flavour.

As for the balsam, well its a surprise to me too. The bees have been coming in white for weeks and I was quite happy they would be prospering, but far less nectar than last year. Two years ago was also a washout on the balsam. The only places that were getting much nectar also had access to bits and pieces of phacelia...you could see the pollen in them, but that is now mostly gone and though the balsam still has abundant flower on it the stores level is going down and egg laying is curtailed, which we don't want to see in the nucs, so it was feeding all weekend.

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## Feckless Drone

Thanks C4U. I've never tried the "loosener" just tend to press out the heather honey. Occasionally I see patches of what looks bell-like but I just mix it in. And from my site half way up the Sidlaws I get a mixture of clover, thistle, willowherb, bramble and ling going so always have to press the combs otherwise most of the honey just stays stuck. But, having a good amount of ling in with the blossom does give a good honey. I am going to have a go next season at getting a crop of bell heather honey.

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## GRIZZLY

Bees taking down feed like mad.- still bringing in loads of yellow pollen together with white himalayan balsom. Still lots of forage about.

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## Bridget

It's another beautiful day in the highlands.  The earth is bone dry, my raspberries have gone mad producing new fruit and growth, the heather in the forest has dark green new growth and there are flowers on the cowberries, they usually flower in May.   As the bees seem more active than normal for the time of year, will they be racing through their stores and will there still be lots of brood and new bees?  I think we need to have a quick peek today.  Trouble with having a bee house is we can't heft or the hive comes apart from the entrance.  


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## gavin

You'll just have to heft the entire bee house  :Wink: .

Late brood rearing is good imho.  Lots of young bees to give the colony strength in spring (at the cost of some extra feeding).

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## madasafish

I weigh my hives front and rear - rope and digital scales. 5 minutes/hive. (Only at this time of year and early spring)

Good way to tell if they are needing to be fed etc.

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## fatshark

But as Bridget says, not possible with a tunnel-type entrance through the bee house wall. At least whilst the bees are still flying. Once they're pretty-much clustered you can do it. 
I went through a couple of boxes in my bee shed last week. Fondant being taken down well - about 50% of the 12.5 kg gone I would guess - and good levels of sealed and open brood. Nucs looked particularly good. I think there are a couple more to check sometime in the next fortnight but then that's it for the season. 

After that it's processing all that lovely honey ... should take about 10 minutes from this summer's crop  :Frown:

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## Mellifera Crofter

I've never managed hefting.  My colonies are on different hive types and in different configurations - so how do I know what is a good weight?  I look, check that they have enough honey stores; and then feeding them and leave them with candy or fondant over winter in case they need it.

My winter feeding regime still needs improvement.  I'm not too sure about it.  I thought I'll try and follow C4U's example this year, but I don't think I managed.  Mostly the bees ignored the foundation frames, and filled the rest chock and block with syrup to the point that, in some colonies, I'm worried about space for the queen to lay.
Kitta

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## Calluna4u

> I've never managed hefting.  My colonies are on different hive types and in different configurations - so how do I know what is a good weight?  I look, check that they have enough honey stores; and then feeding them and leave them with candy or fondant over winter in case they need it.
> 
> My winter feeding regime still needs improvement.  I'm not too sure about it.  I thought I'll try and follow C4U's example this year, but I don't think I managed.  Mostly the bees ignored the foundation frames, and filled the rest chock and block with syrup to the point that, in some colonies, I'm worried about space for the queen to lay.
> Kitta


Where did you put the foundation frames? They are still drawing them for fun here. They should be interspersed (not two together) in the middle of the nest.

Only reason I can think of that they would not draw those is if the colony is on the small side, but even then they do SOME. 

If you are just looking in from the top you might not be seeing what they have done as, in some colonies, they can extend the shoulders of the old combs a bit and you don't see much on the former foundation frames from the top, but they have done them just the same. 

Have some that have drawn and filled or even laid in up to 7 bars of foundation in the last fortnight, albeit 3 or 4 being more normal. About 60% of our colonies are stuffed wall to wall with bees and these can do surprising things even this late.

Gavin:- What are these fields with a brassica crop in them, looks like mustard but now flowering white and with occasional light purple flowering plants too? The bees are going nuts on it on sunny days. Nucs nearby have put on weight in October!

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## prakel

> I thought I'll try and follow C4U's example this year


Tried it on a few colonies last year and can honestly say that it's changed my whole approach at this time of year, there's now a couple of extra months of 'useful' work Quite simply, I was blind to the full potential previously but I'd definitely suggest that you persevere with it in future years.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Where did you put the foundation frames? They are still drawing them for fun here. They should be interspersed (not two together) in the middle of the nest. ...





> ...I'd definitely suggest that you persevere with it in future years.


Thanks, C4U and Prakel.  I think I was too timid in placing the frames, C4U.  I've added them about second or third from the outside of the box, and they've ignored them.  The colonies are strong.  I've removed the ApiVar strips today from a few more colonies, and moved the foundation to the centre of the box, or right next to the frames with brood in them (none had more than two frames of brood, and only small patches; and some were without brood).  I'll go back in a couple of weeks and check whether they've used them.  If not, I'll remove them so that they can get on with winter, and then try again next year.

Kitta

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## Calluna4u

> Thanks, C4U and Prakel.  I think I was too timid in placing the frames, C4U.  I've added them about second or third from the outside of the box, and they've ignored them.  The colonies are strong.  I've removed the ApiVar strips today from a few more colonies, and moved the foundation to the centre of the box, or right next to the frames with brood in them (none had more than two frames of brood, and only small patches; and some were without brood).  I'll go back in a couple of weeks and check whether they've used them.  If not, I'll remove them so that they can get on with winter, and then try again next year.
> 
> Kitta


Not made clear is if you are actively feeding. This practice is ONLY to be done while actively feeding in autumn.....no flow, either natural or artificial and no wax will be drawn.....but then its the same any time. They are most unlikely, in rural Aberdeenshire, to draw wax on a natural flow at this time.

It is getting pretty back endish for doing it wood up here now, though this afternoon Jolanta reported seeing 6 full newly drawn combs in a Smith only fed on Friday. Will work in poly for another couple of weeks....then just don't do it any more up here unless you really know what you are doing.

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## Mellifera Crofter

I'm feeding them, C4U.  I was going to stop because they have a lot of frames with stores in them, but after reading your post I've decided to move the foundation frames to the centre and continue feeding a bit longer longer.  I'll keep an eye on them and remove the frame if it's too late now.
Kitta

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## madasafish

> I've never managed hefting.  My colonies are on different hive types and in different configurations - so how do I know what is a good weight?  I look, check that they have enough honey stores; and then feeding them and leave them with candy or fondant over winter in case they need it.
> 
> My winter feeding regime still needs improvement.  I'm not too sure about it.  I thought I'll try and follow C4U's example this year, but I don't think I managed.  Mostly the bees ignored the foundation frames, and filled the rest chock and block with syrup to the point that, in some colonies, I'm worried about space for the queen to lay.
> Kitta


Being obsessive, I weighed all my hive parts, frames etc...

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## Bridget

We've always put the extracted frames back on and as we run double brood without QE in summer we put some extracted frames on top and and swapped others into the lower BB. Some were quite damaged from the heather honey extracting (seemed more difficult this year, maybe because all the blossom honey that sits on the bottom had been used up during the bad weather spell). Anyway most of them nicely tidied up, repaired and redrawn and honey moved down so it was back down to one broodbox and fondant on this weekend.  Fondant on now because we didn't like to feed syrup while the wets were on top. We had intended to get them to draw new foundation with syrup as we are always short of drawn foundation in early summer but it didn't quite work out this year.


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## mbc

> Tried it on a few colonies last year and can honestly say that it's changed my whole approach at this time of year, there's now a couple of extra months of 'useful' work Quite simply, I was blind to the full potential previously but I'd definitely suggest that you persevere with it in future years.


+1
Possibly the best thing I've picked up from the interweb.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Being obsessive, I weighed all my hive parts, frames etc...


Impressive, Madasafish.  I doubt that I will be in a position to follow your example.  I'll stay with looking.  I've not yet had a colony die of hunger or isolation starvation.
Kitta

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## gavin

> Gavin:- What are these fields with a brassica crop in them, looks like mustard but now flowering white and with occasional light purple flowering plants too? The bees are going nuts on it on sunny days. Nucs nearby have put on weight in October!


Sounds like radish.  There is a fodder radish used for game cover.  The flowers tend to be a bit more open than OSR and with noticeable veins on the petals.  Whitish to light purple.

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## Calluna4u

> Sounds like radish.  There is a fodder radish used for game cover.  The flowers tend to be a bit more open than OSR and with noticeable veins on the petals.  Whitish to light purple


That looks like the stuff Gavin. There are several fields of it near Meigle, also north of Burrelton. The bees are busy on it at every chance. Most of the flowers are white but some are light purple and some are various stages of intermediate.

One field has yellow mustard in the mix too, but it is almost past and the white/purple stuff has grown past it. Another has a mustard/phacelia mix in it.

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## gavin

There was also a field of radish near Abernyte, so I hear.  

Great to see them piling in yellow pollen during the brief sunny spell in the middle of the day.  Ivy, I presume.  That site, an old orchard in the Carse of Gowrie, used to have loads of ivy nearby but a groundsman cleared it out several years ago.  I think that they now fly a few km for it on a S-facing slope.  They're still taking down feed and building comb to put it in.  Some of the colonies have shrunk to 5-6 frames of bees - natural shrinkage after a tough life on the heather or was my Varroa control a bit late? 

All that rain recently has rendered a couple of apiaries off limits to Vera the Van.  A kind fellow had to pull me out of one apiary near the Tay on Friday when the going got just too soft.  Today I backed out of another before I went too far.  It is the season for long walks in rather than driving up to the bees.  Just as well the need to carry syrup to them is almost over.

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Gavin
I have a Suzuki Jimny for those jobs 
Mind you it doesn't do much good when you lose your key in a deserted spot duh!!

Heres a pic of some of next years boxes pity you cant smell them 
I love the smell of cedar in the morning (cue Valkyries)IMG_20161027_120411.jpg

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## prakel

> Heres a pic of some of next years boxes pity you cant smell them


Are those the seconds which you linked to previously?

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## The Drone Ranger

Hi Prakel 
Yes they are all Thornes seconds boxes, roofs, and floors

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## prakel

> Hi Prakel 
> Yes they are all Thornes seconds boxes, roofs, and floors


They look smart enough at those prices. If only their dadant gear got into the sales a little more often!

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## Adam

> pity you cant smell them 
> I love the smell of cedar in the morning]


When I took up beekeeping a few years ago, the smell of cedar instantly reminded me of when I was a child and Dad kept bees. Bootiful.  :Smile:

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## GRIZZLY

Big surprise today. Went to my out apiary to retrieve some old hives to discover that two of them are occupied by a small colony each - both busy bringing in loads of ivy pollen. Now got to feed them both and see if we can get them to over winter.

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## Feckless Drone

In the west end of Dundee, there has been lots of pollen gathering - I reckon most of it is from gum trees that have been in flower for a week or so, then some ivy coming in as well. The botanic gardens, and a few homes around the place have gum trees that are native to Tasmania so pretty hardy. 
I think Edinburgh botanics also have a good collection of gum trees.

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## The Drone Ranger

Flying bees again today hope they are not munching all their stores :]

Seems a bit quiet on the forum at the moment ?

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## GRIZZLY

The queen should have finished her laying by now so seems a good time to zap the mites in the next few days. Still getting the odd flying bees around. Have not seen any pollen coming in so perhaps they are bringing in water. Huge temperature variations at the moment from minus 4.0 to plus 14.0. Hope its not going to follow last years pattern with all the disruption that caused.

----------


## prakel

> The queen should have finished her laying by now


Is that because of your location or the strain of bee? Seems incredibly early by our standards down here, I don't expect colonies to be broodless until the start of January or there abouts.

----------


## fatshark

Queens certainly haven't finished laying in bonny Fife. Pollen being piled in today and a quick peek recently showed quite a lot of eggs and young larvae. Today was warm and it's predicted to get a lot cooler pretty soon. 

Met Office has a neat comparison of climate site and this is what the minimum temperature comparison between Stranraer and Sidmouth looks like ... assuming you're both where you say you are (and who can tell on the internet?).

Stranraer_climate_information_-_Met_Office.jpg

----------


## prakel

> Stranraer and Sidmouth looks like ... assuming you're both where you say you are


Not quite sure what's behind that comment....especially as I don't claim to be in Sidmouth anyway.

----------


## fatshark

Nothing behind the comment at all ... the _"assuming you're where you say you are"_ is an oblique reference to "On the internet nobody knows you're a dog".

Internet_dog.jpg

Wikipedia tells me the "Jurassic Coast" is Exmouth to Studland Bay ... I put Exmouth into the Met Office website and it returns Sidmouth as the closest climate station. You don't know whether I'm really in Fife*

--
* I am

----------


## mbc

> Is that because of your location or the strain of bee? Seems incredibly early by our standards down here, I don't expect colonies to be broodless until the start of January or there abouts.


November to the beginning of January is usually the best time to find hives broodless here*, it could be later this year after such a nice October / beginning of November.  I used to poke about with my bees endlessly to satisfy curiosity,  nowadays I prefer them to prosper and make me honey.

*here being lower teifi valley

----------


## prakel

> I used to poke about with my bees endlessly to satisfy curiosity,  nowadays I prefer them to prosper and make me honey


Which of course is right and unquestionably sensible, but equally it's wise to build up a body of personal knowledge about what happens in our own hives rather than relying on authorative comments from people who often then go on to say that actually, they'd never open their boxes during the period that they're referring to.... Too much of _that_ sort of nonsense going on. 

I often wonder how many inefficient oxalic treatments are being made because people are missing their best window of opportunity through sheer ignorance of their own stock. Locally, early December appears to be a popular time for trickle treatment when, unless my bees are really unusual and out of sync with all the others, I know that the end of the first week of January would probably be a much better time to make a 'blind' treatment. But they don't listen to me, I'm just the mad man (some days more so than others  :Smile:  ).

----------


## fatshark

> ... a quick peek recently showed quite a lot of eggs and young larvae ...


I should have perhaps qualified this. I'm not poking around to satisfy curiosity. There was a very specific reason to go into this colony unrelated to beekeeping _per se_. _"Don't do this at home"_ as they used to say about mildly risky activities on the Beeb. All of my other colonies were tucked up with ample fondant in early September and haven't been opened since the end of August. Other than observing what happens at the hive entrance and if brood cappings fall onto the Varroa tray (if it's in) there's almost nothing to do until April.

----------


## greengumbo

Some pollen coming in at one site yesterday and today - good to see  :Smile:  

17'C according to the car !

----------


## greengumbo

> Some pollen coming in at one site yesterday and today - good to see  
> 
> 17'C according to the car !



...and down to -3'C this morning. 20'C swing within a week.

At least the last of the wasps will now be gone.

----------


## prakel

Hidden amongst the various email adverts promoting Black Friday sales which seem to be cluttering my inbox I've just stumbled on this from Honingraat:




> TOTAL SALE
> We stop with our shop on 31/01/2017.
> Till than you can order on our webshop with a reduction of 20%.
> Everything in stock must go


Although it's certainly sad to think that they're closing down it may be an opportunity to pick up some useful stuff (keilers and the German mini-plus boxes etc jump to mind) at very good prices, they also have an excellent UK free shipping on orders over £75.

http://www.honingraat.eu/

----------


## Greengage

If you cannot play with the hives over the winter months you could build a new apiary. free from all pests and diseases and stings.
https://ideas.lego.com/projects/92829

----------


## fatshark

Nice work if you can get it ... I guess the journo who wrote that story doesn't appreciate the consequences of the juxtaposition of the words _pro rata_ and 'four bee colonies'  :Wink:

----------


## greengumbo

> Nice work if you can get it ... I guess the journo who wrote that story doesn't appreciate the consequences of the juxtaposition of the words _pro rata_ and 'four bee colonies'


Plus ubiquitous photo of bumble bee !

----------


## gavin

> _pro rata_


I'm sure that I could stretch out an inspection to a day and a quarter if warranted :-)

Today's news in not even sunny Tayside in December is that the MiniPlus nucs at the front of the house are piling in a yellow pollen like it was a summer's day.  Nice to see bees in an optimistic mood.  I presume it is ivy. 

G.

----------


## greengumbo

> I'm sure that I could stretch out an inspection to a day and a quarter if warranted :-)
> 
> Today's news in not even sunny Tayside in December is that the MiniPlus nucs at the front of the house are piling in a yellow pollen like it was a summer's day.  Nice to see bees in an optimistic mood.  I presume it is ivy. 
> 
> G.


Excellent news indeed Gavin. 

Bit chilly up here but a few workers venturing forth. Not sure where the ivy is around my apiary.  

Also finally started building a honey warming cabinet. Box and insulation done and a small usb powered fan all wired up. Just need to decide on heating. I have a thermostat and loads of old reptile heat mats I thought I could bodge in or some old school light bulbs. My ecostat is wired up to an egg incubator so not overly keen to take it out and wire it to the cabinet.

----------


## GRIZZLY

Bit of workshop housekeeping going on. Bees seem to be flying at every opportunity. No pollen seen now  - guess they are making cleansing flights. Got everything strapped down well for the forthcoming gales. Tomorrow is the shortest day so hopefully things will be looking up soon.

----------


## Feckless Drone

Next Tuesday in Dundee, a talk that might be of interest. If you do go give yourself time cause parking can be an issue.

Saving our Bumblebees

        Start: 31 Jan 4:00PM      End: 31 Jan 5:00PM
        Location: Dalhousie Building Lecture Theatre 1
        Cost: Free Organiser: CECHR 

    Bumblebees are amongst the most important of wild pollinators; many wildflowers would not set seed without them, and they are the main pollinators of crops such as tomatoes, blueberries and raspberries. Concerningly, many bumblebees are in decline, with 3 species now extinct in the UK and the first global extinction recently occurring in USA.

    Dave Goulson, Professor Of Biology (Evolution, Behaviour and Environment) at the University of Sussex, will discuss the drivers of these declines, and the many things we can all do to halt and reverse them, at the Biochemical Society sponsored lecture.

    Dave has published over 200 scientific articles on the ecology of bees and other insects, and is author of 'Bumblebees; their behaviour, ecology and conservation' (2010, Oxford University Press) and 'A Sting in the Tale' (2013, Jonathan Cape), a popular science book about bumblebees.

    He is a Fellow of the Royal Entomological Society, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh.  

    In 2010 he was BBSRC "Social Innovator of the Year" and in 2013 he won the Marsh Award for Conservation Biology from the Zoological Society of London.

    The lecture will be followed by a drinks reception from 5-6pm, giving the opportunity to meet with Dave in a more informal setting.

----------


## greengumbo

> Next Tuesday in Dundee, a talk that might be of interest. If you do go give yourself time cause parking can be an issue.
> 
> Saving our Bumblebees
> 
>         Start: 31 Jan 4:00PM      End: 31 Jan 5:00PM
>         Location: Dalhousie Building Lecture Theatre 1
>         Cost: Free Organiser: CECHR 
> 
>     Bumblebees are amongst the most important of wild pollinators; many wildflowers would not set seed without them, and they are the main pollinators of crops such as tomatoes, blueberries and raspberries. Concerningly, many bumblebees are in decline, with 3 species now extinct in the UK and the first global extinction recently occurring in USA.
> ...


Nice ! I might well try to get down for this.

His books are beautifully written...even if I'm not on board with all the conclusions. Great speaker as well.

----------


## Kate Atchley

Scotland's new Native Honey Bee Society's start-up meeting 1st April .... not an April fool but an April fun, action-packed event! 

Hope to see lots of you there ... see http://www.snhbs.cot

xfinger-banner-7660-2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.qIDyd-eMe_.jpg

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

You dropped the 's', Kate.  It's http://www.snhbs.scot .
Kitta

----------


## Greengage

Good luck with the project.

----------


## RDMW

Very interested in the snhbs . Don't think I will make the Perth meeting but will join the society 
Greatly enjoyed Andrews course on colonsay last year and would like to breed amm here in Ullapool if possible 
Was just looking at Dave cushmans page on morphometry which looks very complex. Does anyone know if it is possible to have morphometry done on your bees as a commercial service?


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## Jimbo

Hi RDMW

The snhbs is currently discussing a membership rate only if you can't attend the start up meeting on the 1st April in Perth
I do wing morphometry on a regular basis and can offer to check your colonies for free if you join the snhbs
I expect one of the training courses that snhbs could offer in the future is in wing morphometry if the members who go to the inaugural meeting think there is a need for such a course


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## lindsay s

Last year's Birthday cake. Made by a friend of a friend, it made my day.

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## Greengage

Are they Scotland's new Native Honey Bee I was wondering what they looked like  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Jimbo

I think they are a bit too yellow for our native dark bee, however I am will to give them try!


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## lindsay s

> I think they are a bit too yellow for our native dark bee, however I am will to give them try!


Just like the cake yellow bees dont last long in Orkney. You tested (not tasted) some of my bees back in 2011. The best colony was about 94% AMM. Dont worry the dark bees wont be eaten by me. 
Late last summer while helping another beekeeper to get ready for winter I was surprised by the temperament of her dark bees. Im hoping to get my hands on some this Spring.

----------


## Poly Hive

Odd here today. All singing and dancing weather station says 10C. Barely a bee flying. Hmm... odd. 

PH

----------


## GRIZZLY

Bees seem to have woken up today  - flying and fetching in pollen. Soon went back inside when sun disappeared.

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## Bridget

Bees very busy today.  Beautiful weather in the Cairngorm National Park but still cool.  I was surprised to see bees all over the bird table, turning over the seeds and even inside the feeder entrance.  Any one seen this?  What are they looking for?  Tried to upload a short video but not working


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## wee willy

I can only imagine they'd be looking for protein in some form ! 


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## Bridget

Maybe - they were on the gorse but there wasnt any pollen on them.  Snowdrops seem to have no pollen left either and nothing else much around in this area. I think I will give them some pollen patties.


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## alancooper

> I can only imagine they'd be looking for protein in some form !


Was it water on the underside of seeds - not yet evaporated but warmer than elsewhere and containing other soluble materials? I often see my bees sucking up small droplets from grass leaves in the sun.

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## alancooper

> Bees seem to have woken up today  - flying and fetching in pollen.


Last week there were yellow pollen loads coming. I thought it might be gorse but microscope identification showed it to be willow. This is the earliest I have ever seen it brought in so early. Early Feb also showed hazel pollen loads. Snowdrop flowers disappeared last week and my Victoria plum has almost finished flowering. This winter has been really mild - all hives heavy with stores but probably mostly ivy (sucked dry?), fondant being used since Jan and bees flying more frequently than usual. Itchy fingers waiting for a warm calm day to do a quick first inspection.

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## prakel

Some may remember the photos I posted a few years ago of the skeletal remains of a mouse, varnished with propolis and glued to the bottom bar of a frame. Well they've been at it again, but not a mouse this time:

17190977_1281948958568651_3582867683613789104_n.jpg17202667_1281940201902860_2612442982293350697_n (1).jpg17202667_1281940201902860_2612442982293350697_n (1).jpg17202793_1281948188568728_1683704915619475413_n (1).jpg17202793_1281948188568728_1683704915619475413_n (1).jpg

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## lindsay s

Your bees are at the  Jurassic Coast so it could be one of these.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/...20090930201842

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## prakel

lol. When I find one of THOSE basking on a hive roof in the summer I'll be heading to Orkney  :Smile: .

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## Bridget

> Was it water on the underside of seeds - not yet evaporated but warmer than elsewhere and containing other soluble materials? I often see my bees sucking up small droplets from grass leaves in the sun.


Don't think so as the seed was under a roof and it looked dry.  Nice idea though


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## Bridget

> lol. When I find one of THOSE basking on a hive roof in the summer I'll be heading to Orkney .


There is a great video doing the rounds of a French Beekeeper who has put his hens in near his hives and the hens are very partial to picking off the Asian hornets


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## Neils

Well ventured a quick peek in the hives today. A little nippy really but wanted to clear the floors. Two hives fine, queens seen and brood so closed up again nice and quick. One looks like it's not long for this world, no queen in evidence, not many bees and what little brood is in there I suspect is old.  Not much I can do at this stage but two out of three is better than last year.

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## Adam

> Some may remember the photos I posted a few years ago of the skeletal remains of a mouse, varnished with propolis and glued to the bottom bar of a frame. Well they've been at it again, but not a mouse this time:
> 
> Attachment 2810Attachment 2811Attachment 2811Attachment 2812Attachment 2812


And a zinc excluder by the looks of it. Are there many left in use I wonder?

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## Calluna4u

> And a zinc excluder by the looks of it. Are there many left in use I wonder?


I have many hundreds in the Smith unit. whilst wire are better the bees do seem to pass these easily when they are framed, more easily than plastic ones.

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## prakel

> And a zinc excluder by the looks of it. Are there many left in use I wonder?


At least 100 here - I might count them one winter evening, or not!

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## Wmfd

Moved three hives to a new site last night. We ended up slightly later than expected so finished up, setting on stands and opening up, in the dark.

The site is on a nature reserve so will be interesting to see how it compares with my other out apiary further east which is much more agricultural. 

Ironically though they've OSR closer on the new than the old site. We seem to have much less being grown around here this year. Is this a common change?

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## madasafish

> Moved three hives to a new site last night. We ended up slightly later than expected so finished up, setting on stands and opening up, in the dark.
> 
> The site is on a nature reserve so will be interesting to see how it compares with my other out apiary further east which is much more agricultural. 
> 
> Ironically though they've OSR closer on the new than the old site. We seem to have much less being grown around here this year. Is this a common change?


Common comment. With neonics, many farmers are growing something else..

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## fatshark

Was also told today that oil prices are lower so less profit margin ...

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## prakel

No apparent downturn around here thankfully, as one farmer told me the other week, ''we'll do what we need to, but we're still growing rape''.

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## Calluna4u

> Common comment. With neonics, many farmers are growing something else..


Very odd....must be a local thing.............my two biggest growers have a larger acreage in than ever before. Without looking for new territory will have trouble covering it all, and we have more colonies this spring than ever before too.

Same is true in our southern unit....they have given us as much OSR as we can handle. (Only the surplus from the fruit pollination go to OSR down there)

We have one or two of our normal farms are without OSR this year, but that's just a crop rotation matter, and conversely some who were without it last year have it again this year.

The biggest growers we go to are doing industrial OSR on long term contracts.

Despite their concerns about lack of neonics most are continuing to grow it, albeit with misgivings about the older generation pesticides they need to use and I am finding them very much in a mood to discuss the matter with us.

Some are starting to see the amateur sector, especially the UK national body, as the enemy too. Too much tub thumping and no care for the farmers interests......................'ok....so take your bees away then' seems to be a position being taken by more farmers than before, despite their knowledge that bees are generally beneficial.. We almost always have to have a position on these matters now before access is granted.

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## Calluna4u

> No apparent downturn around here thankfully, as one farmer told me the other week, ''we'll do what we need to, but we're still growing rape''.


Yes, its not a calculation done in isolation. For many its a crucial break crop as part of their rotation. They will usually continue to grow it even if it is not especially profitable, although they have done well from it the last couple of years, and if they are doing special varieties for dedicated clients (like the industrial guys in my last post) they are somewhat protected from the vagaries of the open market.

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## prakel

Speaking to the same farmer on Tuesday evening, he mentioned that his neighbour is growing rape for the very first time this year -they've avoided it like the plague in the past due to also running a livery but have now made a total about-turn.

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## mbc

My osr farmer is growing a variety called "veritas " and despite being in flower during some warm weather and ground moisture last year my bees didn't get much from it. By the third week of flowering the may had also come out and the bees were going to that in preference.  Anybody else experienced this?

----------


## Wmfd

Interesting, the farmer where I have my original out apiary had big losses last year, which they are blaming on flea beetle/lack of neonics. So this year they are growing beans for the first time as a break crop.

I wonder if there are regional differences on this? In the past around here rape has been the main break crop, with sugar beet as the other. A bit of diversity in crops would be a good thing, and great that the reduction in OSR isn't an overall trend!

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## fatshark

> I wonder if there are regional differences on this?


I was told by an authoritative source today that there's been quite a bit of trouble with flea beetles in the South/South East (UK), but much less elsewhere.

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## Greengage

I read a study where Honey bees avoid rape if pollen beetle are on the crop Ill look it up if your interested. Also rape does not need to be pollinated by bees but they does do help to have seed set more evenly across the field and quicker setting of the seed.
When it was first produced in Canada it was mainly used for the oil industry and it had an acid in it the was not digestible by humans. They then set to work and produced CANOLA (Canada Oil Less Acid) now it could be used in the cooking industry and there is a bigger market.
When using it for cooking they say that too high a temperature is bad for us humans too, then  I am not a doctor so what would I know. There does not seem to be too much of it around my local areas as in previous years so maybe it is a crop break.
Re the other comment regarding farmers and Beekeepers and NGOs there is growing concern amongst farmers that this is an issue that has to be addressed as there are too many armchair Ologists commenting on things they know nothing about. They regularly accuse farmers of destroying the environment, destroying Habitats, using excess pesticides etc. Forget about all the other armchair Ologists (Ecologists, Biologists, Ornithologists etc..) but beekeepers should attend and join local farming groups are build relationships, I have suggested to my local organisation they should have a Forage officer who could attend these meeting and build relations, He/She would know where best forage is available and they could suggest responsible beekeepers who could contribute bees to help farmers with pollination especially early in the season when other pollinators do not have  colonies built up. In the payments to farmers scheme there is no allowance for allowing Honey bees forage on their land but there are payments for having nesting boxes for birds and sand boxes for nesting for solitary bees. Beekeepers could help promote a submission to allow for Honey bees to be includes after all they are listed as livestock on the Dept of Agriculture website.

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## prakel

Any ideas? Saw some ields of 'something' in flower, colour ranging from white to a dusky pink/pale mauve colour (two different plants or the same one, I can't say). Poor description I know, but couldn't stop to look more closely and quite overcast so colour may have been a bit distorted. Definitely a crop, covering 6 or 7 fields, with OSR either side.

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## gavin

Possibly oil/fodder radish.

http://www.elsoms.com/catch-crops/oil-radish

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## Wmfd

> I was told by an authoritative source today that there's been quite a bit of trouble with flea beetles in the South/South East (UK), but much less elsewhere.


Is that this year, or last? I suspect the reasons for the switch here were based on last year as the farmer seemed to have decided very early. Having said that it does seem localised as a few farmers in the area have switched, whilst a little way away the OSR is in bloom.

----------


## prakel

> Possibly oil/fodder radish.


I reckon that you're right Gavin, not seen that in these parts before.

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## Neils

Made the most of the glorious weather to see properly what's going on in the hives. All three queens in lay so even my iffy hive looks like it will pull through as missing queen very much in evidence and a couple of frames now contain brood, I'll transfer that to a nuc as there is mouldy pollen and a distinct smell of fermenting going on though I've removed all frames of old stores where there was no brood.  Poly national nuc is now in a full size hive and final -4x12 has been tidied up and fresh frames replacing old frames of stores that will be mostly syrup.

Drone frames removed and stores cut out, they need rewiring but can then go back and a frame of stores also likely syrup moved to the freezer for later use.

Way too early to need supering but lots of food coming in and an uplifting start to the year after the disappointment of the last few years.

----------


## Feckless Drone

> Way too early to need supering


I'm seeing pictures of OSR fields fully out down south, on Tayside they are now turning and I have seen some sycamore that is almost ready to yield. So, I thought things would be in full flow south of here. I've had to super up some of my colonies with nectar coming in. My choice was go to double brood or add the super to provide some space. According to my notes this is 2-3 weeks ahead of last year. I am not exactly sure what the source of nectar is at the moment - we have lots of gorse in flower but that is not really thought to provide much. I suspect some of my colonies are going to build up further on the OSR but not get much of a crop given that it is early this year.

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## alancooper

Based on flowering times in a range of hedge and meadow species, we are about 2 weeks ahead of last year. Masses of willow, dandelion and Prunus-type (laurel?/plum?) pollen loads coming in. Hives bunged with bees, sealed brood and ivy stores (bees sucking water from damp leaves to dilute?). Early swarming year?

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## Neils

The OSR is out as are the dandelions. None of the colonies are big enough currently, nor are the queens in full lay as I don't  feed unless they're short.  They've all got laying queens and I'll use my bigger colony to boost the smaller in the coming weeks. The stronger colonies have fresh frames in the brood boxes to play with which will keep them occupied for a bit and it's going colder again this week.

I'm also about as high up the mendip hills as you can get so we're typically a few degrees colder and a couple of weeks behind the tropical lowlands of the rest of the south west.

There's definitely a flow on, hence being happy to remove some of the stores left over from winter, but it'll be a little while here before they need a super.

----------


## Adam

A yellow-flowered radish was grown near me as a green manure this winter. It's now been killed off and ploughed back in. Prunus (plums of various types) and blackthorn are out as are dandelions. The apple tree in the garden will be in flower in the next day or two. Despite a good income and plenty of liquid stores in my hives, bees are still sucking up water. OSR is out in Norfolk - has been for a couple of weeks. I don't think there's any near me this year though. I do believe that there were East Anglian hotspots of problems with OSR last year with the stem flea beetle which might have put some farmers off. And as sugar has been cheap, there may not have been a good price for it.

----------


## lindsay s

Although it was less than ideal bee weather I managed to carry out a quick inspection of all of my colonies at the weekend. The hive floors were cleaned, mouldy combs were removed and the heavy stones were reduced down to one per hive at the same time. One hive was riddled with drone brood and there was no sign of the marked queen. I will sort it out and unite with an over wintered nuc as soon as the weather improves. Another hive had dwindled down to a few hundred bees no brood and one open queen cell. The bees were brushed off the bars and left to find new homes in the other hives because I removed there old home. As for the rest they all had between 3 and 4 bars of brood ok levels of stores and there was plenty of pollen coming in. Although Im disappointed to have lost two colonies, being left with eight out of ten aint bad. The weather has turned colder (between 6 and 9c max) and is set to stay like this for the next week. The dandelions are coming out and there is other forage out there so the only thing holding the bees back is the weather. They could be in for a very long wait.
P.S.  Losing the two colonies might be down to late supersedure but I will leave that for another post.

----------


## amacaul

Hi I'm a lurker and don't normally post so if any of the link or pasted text is not accepted convention here I apologise. I came across when looking at news back home.

http://www.hebrides-news.com/rare-bl...len-12417.html



> Theft of rare black honey bees is serious blow to conservation efforts
> 
> 12 April 2017
> 
> Police are investigating the theft of thousands of rare black bees in the Western Isles.
> 
> The two hives in Manish in Harris were part of efforts to save the threatened native European honeybee species, generally known as black bees due to their dark colouring.
> 
> Dedicated breeder, Gavin Jones, believes his hives were deliberately targeted. He was off the island caring for his dying father when thieves struck.
> ...

----------


## fatshark

Welcome amacaul ... Greengage mentioned this on a recent thread on the Scottish Native Honey Bee Society (SNHBS) and expressed his opinions which I suspect are shared by many readers.

----------


## Greengage

> Based on flowering times in a range of hedge and meadow species, we are about 2 weeks ahead of last year. Masses of willow, dandelion and Prunus-type (laurel?/plum?) pollen loads coming in. Hives bunged with bees, sealed brood and ivy stores (bees sucking water from damp leaves to dilute?). Early swarming year?


That's interesting the same here in Ireland lots in flower even lots of OSR about but all too far from me, I suspect while lots of plants are in flower the temp is low so maybe they are not all yielding nectar, it would be interesting to know what specific temps are required for different plants to yield nectar. I have read reports from other Beekeepers that have their bees on OSR that some are expanding and others are not as nectar is not yielding from the plants due to cold weather.

----------


## lindsay s

> One hive was riddled with drone brood and there was no sign of the marked queen. I will sort it out and unite with an over wintered nuc as soon as the weather improves.


Cold here today 8-9c with no wind but I managed to get the job done with the help of Sue. We found the drone laying queen, dispatched her and then united the colony with the nuc. Then it was off to Sues apiary. In her 2nd colony we found a drone laying queen the result of a late supersedure  and she too was dispatched and the bees united (déjà vu).The rest of her colonies were ok with the exception of one, it had 7 frames of brood and was given a super. This was the earliest I can ever recall a colony Ive seen getting its first super up here. Despite the chilly weather the bees at my apiary were bringing in plenty of pollen.
A sight you dont want to see in the spring.

----------


## Adam

Typical brood pattern of a DLQ rather than laying workers.

I had one marked DLQ this spring - well she was laying perhaps 80% drone brood - united the colony to another after removing her. Another colony had a virgin queen and no brood - they had decided to supercede the 3 year old after my last inspection last year - although the old girl had already been superceded in 2016 and I had whipped her out of her hive to safety and leaving her virgin daughter behind to mate. I still hate killing queens - even if they are duff ones!

----------


## Feckless Drone

> This was the earliest I can ever recall a colony Ive seen getting its first super up here.


Had to do swarm control on two colonies yesterday - this is between 1 - 2 weeks ahead of last year in this apiary, these are not particularly swarmy - the brood box and supers are really full of bees, and lots of sealed brood to emerge. I might have been better to go to double brood. Lots of drones flying and good level of stores in the supers which is just as well since they may need all of it to get through this week with snow and frost possible. I can only think that they have found a good source of sycamore and maple over the last week - pollen hints at that, but seems too early. Hawthorn not yet flowering in west Dundee and the cold snap might slow things up a bit. OSR fields seem variable in terms of how much is flowering, some fields really early. Don't know if this is due to more variety in types being planted. 

I noted Ian Craig proposes leaving ALL worker bees access to the whole hive when he first does his split, lets them arrange through the excluder with flyers down to the Q and nurses up with the brood, and after 20 hrs then introduces a board. Does anyone else do that? It might give a better balance with the existing Q. For what its worth - i just do the splits and put Q below, cells above a Snelgrove board.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> I noted Ian Craig proposes leaving ALL worker bees access to the whole hive when he first does his split, lets them arrange through the excluder with flyers down to the Q and nurses up with the brood, and after 20 hrs then introduces a board. Does anyone else do that? ...


Yes, sometimes - but my timing for keeping the colony like that isn't exact.  Sometimes just an hour or so, on other occasions a day or more.

No beekeeping today.  It's been snow and sunshine on my hill today - and quite fast and busy snowing too.
Kitta

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## wee willy

> Had to do swarm control on two colonies yesterday - this is between 1 - 2 weeks ahead of last year in this apiary, these are not particularly swarmy - the brood box and supers are really full of bees, and lots of sealed brood to emerge. I might have been better to go to double brood. Lots of drones flying and good level of stores in the supers which is just as well since they may need all of it to get through this week with snow and frost possible. I can only think that they have found a good source of sycamore and maple over the last week - pollen hints at that, but seems too early. Hawthorn not yet flowering in west Dundee and the cold snap might slow things up a bit. OSR fields seem variable in terms of how much is flowering, some fields really early. Don't know if this is due to more variety in types being planted. 
> 
> I noted Ian Craig proposes leaving ALL worker bees access to the whole hive when he first does his split, lets them arrange through the excluder with flyers down to the Q and nurses up with the brood, and after 20 hrs then introduces a board. Does anyone else do that? It might give a better balance with the existing Q. For what its worth - i just do the splits and put Q below, cells above a Snelgrove board.


All workers have access to the whole hive anyway or am I missing something here?


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## Feckless Drone

> All workers have access to the whole hive anyway or am I missing something here?


Maybe not explained well - The way I normally do it is to introduce a split board (Snelgrove) with entrance in a different direction. So, bees on top stay with brood or fly back downstairs but they cannot go through the board. In Ian's Craig's notes he rearranges the combs so just has a Q excluder separating top and bottom, that is old Q from brood (Q cells). Any bees on the frames below that want to go up to main brood nest do so, and the idea is that flyers keep foraging but stick down below with the Q.  After 20 hours or so when the bees are where they choose he then puts in the split board to stop any bees swapping between top and bottom.

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## fatshark

> I noted Ian Craig proposes leaving ALL worker bees access to the whole hive when he first does his split, lets them arrange through the excluder with flyers down to the Q and nurses up with the brood, and after 20 hrs then introduces a board. Does anyone else do that? It might give a better balance with the existing Q. For what its worth - i just do the splits and put Q below, cells above a Snelgrove board.


I do it as you describe but use a simpler single entrance solid/screened board to avoid confusing myself. I generally leave the foragers to exit the rear and enter the front. A week later I turn the lot through 180 degrees (horizontal plane!) to bleed off flyers from the QC's.

Going by the speed of colony development this side of the Tay I'll be doing this in late July ... 8-(

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## Feckless Drone

> to avoid confusing myself.


I live in a state of confusion. 
I'm surprised about your rate of buildup. My site where things are too good, is very well sheltered, south facing and in Dundee the spring pollen is plentiful, BUT maybe less nectar (in part due to competition) judging from my own experience and speaking with an old hand who keeps strong colonies near mine. On another site up high in the hills things are slower but even so this year they are well ahead of schedule compared to last year. In part maybe due to use of poly-hives, strong colonies with a heather boost going into winter, and more feed for and over winter with the 12.5 kg block of fondant approach that you have encouraged. In the past I have not been so good at making sure that I only take strong colonies into winter but seeing what the commercial guys do has guided me. 

I say too good above because I would prefer to be doing splits about a month from now when a good spring crop is in and when you can be sure about the number of drones and of chances for good mating weather.  

Is your Fife environment just a bit exposed, nearer the coast with the cool winds we've been having?

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## fatshark

> Is your Fife environment just a bit exposed, nearer the coast with the cool winds we've been having?


I suspect I'm just a rubbish beekeeper.

In fairness, I've not enough experience up here (this is only my second Spring). Last year Spring was very late. This year it just feels cold and I've only looked at half my colonies - I'm hoping to get to the others next Thursday. The little time I've had available it's been too cold. I've also been travelling South a lot where it's a whole lot warmer. This makes me feel as though things should be further advanced than they actually are.

Most of my colonies went into the winter pretty strong. One I lost to viruses. Two more queens have failed/disappeared. One looks weak, but the rest are piling in the pollen and are probably OK, though less advanced than I'd hoped based upon my experience in the balmy South.

My bees are all in reasonably sheltered spots. All but those in the shed are in poly.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...This year it just feels cold and I've only looked at half my colonies  ...


It's the same on my hill, FS.  I've established al my colonies are alive, but I've not yet been able to give them all a full inspection.  I think I'll be able to do that this weekend, in time to complete the over-wintering survey.
Kitta

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## The Drone Ranger

> Had to do swarm control on two colonies yesterday - this is between 1 - 2 weeks ahead of last year in this apiary, these are not particularly swarmy - the brood box and supers are really full of bees, and lots of sealed brood to emerge. I might have been better to go to double brood. Lots of drones flying and good level of stores in the supers which is just as well since they may need all of it to get through this week with snow and frost possible. I can only think that they have found a good source of sycamore and maple over the last week - pollen hints at that, but seems too early. Hawthorn not yet flowering in west Dundee and the cold snap might slow things up a bit. OSR fields seem variable in terms of how much is flowering, some fields really early. Don't know if this is due to more variety in types being planted. 
> 
> I noted Ian Craig proposes leaving ALL worker bees access to the whole hive when he first does his split, lets them arrange through the excluder with flyers down to the Q and nurses up with the brood, and after 20 hrs then introduces a board. Does anyone else do that? It might give a better balance with the existing Q. For what its worth - i just do the splits and put Q below, cells above a Snelgrove board.


Strictly speaking that's the method in Snelgrove's book
I have done both ways 
If it is cool and they are flying less than expected it might be better to sort them through the QX for a day 
On the other hand its an opportunity for migrating varroa so if you are using a finer mesh on board I would say just put it on
I'm not sure if Ian uses a solid board or one with a mesh 
If its solid then that might be a factor 
Lots of pollen coming from rape not much nectar though FD could be the variety as you say

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## Feckless Drone

> " migrating varroa "


yeah, didn't think about that and not sure if Ian Craig has solid boards or not. I primarily use the Snelgrove board to bleed flyers back down, and tend to only put it on after I see the Q cells charged. Then it does become a lottery trying to keep the old Q from doing a runner. I''ve not had a good spell of weather to check colonies up in the hills for over 2 weeks now and getting nervous. There will be swarms in Dundee west towards the end of the week. If I've missed a cell their mine OK?

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## RDMW

What a good site for an out apiary.  
Great weather again after a cold snap 
All colonies doing well
Starting the breeding program this week




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## greengumbo

Demaree demaree demaree all day !

Thats whats happening. I'm a bit bee'd out.

One question I have for you regarding splits after demaree. The OSR is still going strong here and supers are getting filled up nicely ergo my preference for demaree to keep the hive at full strength. However I do want to split these colonies in half at some point. How and when would you recommend I do it ? Just after OSR seems harsh as the sudden dearth might retard the growth of both halves of the split. 

Just interested in what others do. I think I'll harvest QCs from the demaree top boxes and get the queens mated then split but open to suggestions.

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## Feckless Drone

> How and when would you recommend I do it ?


In my case the Q cells appeared pretty early on so I have had to do splits (last ones done yesterday), but I use a Snelgrove board to supply the foragers box. You may not be able to chose when to split, the bees will decide that. A benefit of splitting early, I think is that forage is good and less issues with stressing out a small mating nucleus.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Hooray.  The sycamore is in bloom.  It's cold and overcast outside, but the hum underneath the tree made me look up - and the bees are busy.
Kitta

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## mbc

> Hooray.  The sycamore is in bloom.  It's cold and overcast outside, but the hum underneath the tree made me look up - and the bees are busy.
> Kitta


I love a good sycamore year, it doesn't always happen but in some years sycamore can flow right into the brambles first blossom and these years are invariably red letter years.

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## Feckless Drone

Not really today's news but a request. C4U posted his approach to getting comb drawn in the autumn. I've really got to get more drawn comb to replace some old and to help with a increase in numbers so can anyone guide me to that post. I've searched but cannot find it and if I can I'm thinking about taking colonies out of honey production come the June gap to work on comb a la Bailey approach or waiting until later on. I've really missed a trick with the OSR this year and I should have gone to double brood with the top box as super.

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## Jimbo

I am in the same situation
I took out one colony from honey production, placed a brood box of foundation on top and fed with sugar to get the foundation drawn
I just then keep harvesting the drawn foundation
I also will use this colony for providing bees for my mini nucs 


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## Adam

I have too much old comb. Once the honey has been taken off I want to seriously get the bees to move up to new comb in a number of hives. I often winter on double brood so if I can get them one box of good comb, the oldest can go downstairs on the outsides of the hive and by spring it should be empty of anything worthwhile.

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## The Drone Ranger

Look at using a Snelgrove board next year you get new comb in the bottom a new queen in the top and no interruption in honey gathering 
Won't say any more  :Smile: 

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## fatshark

"Too good to be true" ... and I'm thinking my colonies with Snelgrove boards in might be upside down  :Frown:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Not really today's news but a request. C4U posted his approach to getting comb drawn in the autumn. ... I've searched but cannot find it ...


Here is one post from C4U, FD, and another.  I think he wrote in more detail about it, and that I've kept in Evernote, but I can't find it!

Kitta

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## Feckless Drone

Kitta - thats great thanks. I am warming to the idea of changing the comb over much more than just a couple of frames each year. I can see however, that you need to feed or exploit the OSR perhaps.

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## RDMW

I did a bailey comb change last year on a hive I got from another beekeeper. Worked a treat 


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## The Drone Ranger

> "Too good to be true" ... and I'm thinking my colonies with Snelgrove boards in might be upside down


http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sho...185#post388185

You need a flow otherwise it will fail (won't draw wax /no honey)
You have to get the board in before any queen cells are started

I wouldn't attempt upside down 
Training the old field bees to a new entrance disruptive 
Best of luck with it fatshark  :Smile: 




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## RDMW

Angry bees today. Inspecting a friends hive and ended up with a pile of bees trying to sting my ankles and climbing down into my boots! Followed me right down the field. Lesson learned - tuck trousers into socks. Time for a new queen asp. Never encountered such unpleasant bees. Luckily we have 11 nice QC on the cupkit and hoping for a successful hatch next weekend from a lovely amm colony. 



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## greengumbo

Really great beekeeping day today. Took my wee boy of 6 out to one of the more placid apiaries to check on 5 new hives. Spent a good hour going through them and answering his questions. Second supers on two of them and demareed another.

3 weeks till end of OSR I reckon and a good week forecast. Swung past another apiary on the way home and they were piling in. Great sight to see  :Smile:

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## Poly Hive

OSR here looking very bare now and with the deluge we have just had no doubt even barer. 1.4mm in ten minutes, it was literally bouncing. 

2nd sups on some and 2nd BB and first sup on a ex nuc which is building up very nicely now using an Amm Q from Greece of all places. And before anyone kicks off you tell me first where to source them in Scotland? 

On that note what is happening with the new society? Gone utterly silent it seems. I do hope it's not a fur coat and no knickers jobby?

PH

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## The Drone Ranger

> OSR here looking very bare now and with the deluge we have just had no doubt even barer. 1.4mm in ten minutes, it was literally bouncing. 
> 
> 2nd sups on some and 2nd BB and first sup on a ex nuc which is building up very nicely now using an Amm Q from Greece of all places. And before anyone kicks off you tell me first where to source them in Scotland? 
> 
> On that note what is happening with the new society? Gone utterly silent it seems. I do hope it's not a fur coat and no knickers jobby?
> 
> PH


It's a secret society  :Smile: 



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## Jimbo

All busy producing Amm queens at the moment perhaps?


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## mbc

> now using an Amm Q from Greece of all places. And before anyone kicks off you tell me first where to source them in Scotland? 
> 
> PH


You want the moon on a stick handed on a plate for you!  The onus is on you to ask not for anyone to tell you.
Try asking politely in the right places and don't expect to pay by PayPal on a slick website from Greece and you might get somewhere.

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## greengumbo

> OSR here looking very bare now and with the deluge we have just had no doubt even barer. 1.4mm in ten minutes, it was literally bouncing. 
> 
> 2nd sups on some and 2nd BB and first sup on a ex nuc which is building up very nicely now using an Amm Q from Greece of all places. And before anyone kicks off you tell me first where to source them in Scotland? 
> 
> On that note what is happening with the new society? Gone utterly silent it seems. I do hope it's not a fur coat and no knickers jobby?
> 
> PH


Its been busy behind the scenes PH ! Most of the new committee are pretty committed beekeepers so the planned newsletter etc taking a bit longer than hoped. Watch this space very soon though  :Smile: 

Sourcing native queens is a priority but one which might take a while.

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## Jimbo

You are right GG a lot been happening behind the scenes. In Speyside we are busy assessing the best breeder queens. Working out a plan of action and about to start our first round of graphs tomorrow. I also had news that some beekeeper in Helensburgh have already produced 10 local nucs last week from some good Amm and near Amm stocks


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## prakel

> now using an Amm Q from Greece of all places. And before anyone kicks off you tell me first where to source them in Scotland?


Good French genetics crossed with cecropia?

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## drumgerry

About getting a Scottish queen -  Have you asked Andrew to go on his list for queens?  There are ways to get a Scottish queen PH but you have to ask around.  This afternoon I grafted 20 larvae from one of Jimbo's Rosneath AMMs (now resident in Speyside) and they're now in my cell raiser.  This is my way to go about it.  Plus I'm on Andrew's list for a Colonsay queen.  Just because they're not a click or two away on the internet doesn't mean they can't be got.  Is there no-one in the Borders you can work with to improve things?

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## fatshark

> 3 weeks till end of OSR I reckon and a good week forecast. Swung past another apiary on the way home and they were piling in. Great sight to see


I nearly ruptured myself turning hives round this evening that I'm doing splits on ... this time last week supers were echoing cathedrals of emptiness, now they're filling fast  :Embarrassment:

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## RDMW

I have 11 queen cells in a cup kit from a queen that was from a AMM breeding program in Gairloch.  Obviously they will be mongrelised (is that a word?) but am hoping for some fine queens.  I plan to send a sample of bees from the hive for analysis.
Quite please with my first attempt at queen raising.  Hair rollers on tomorrow!


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## The Drone Ranger

> You want the moon on a stick handed on a plate for you!  The onus is on you to ask not for anyone to tell you.
> Try asking politely in the right places and don't expect to pay by PayPal on a slick website from Greece and you might get somewhere.


Steady mbc 
Got out on the wrong side of the bed   lol!

I think there has been hints of big things to come 
I have lots of mininucs at the moment 
Not an AMM queen in sight though all my own trusty local mongrels 
Happy days  :Smile: 


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## greengumbo

Okay. I'm recovering from the heat and have just sunk an irn bru so bear with me and my inane ramblings.

I attempted to catch a truly massive swarm in a 6 frame national nuc box. Unfortunately I kind of bodged it in and it was clearly too big for the box. So I have got half of it in another nuc box I had spare.

One of the nucs has a queen and the bees are fanning like mad at the entrance. The other I have closed. Can I stick a mated queen in the queenless half and bingo 2 swarmed nucs ? Or is it best to combine and chuck into a full sized hive when I can (might be a few days).

Okay the bru is kicking in. Onwards.

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## Feckless Drone

> Can I stick a mated queen in the queenless half and bingo 2 swarmed nucs ?


Yeah - I had similar experience last year, luckily I was able to swap over from nuc to full size brood box in two goes at the swarm. You could introduce a mated Q - in cage of course, and after leaving them for a few days they should be receptive. My worry would be the Q-less part absconding when they sense the problem. I don't know if anyone has seen that happen. But could be a good approach to increase your numbers. 

Do you know where the swarm originated? Someone using double brood box setup? If that Q can hold the colony together at such a size before swarming in an OSR environment then she should be good un.

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## fatshark

Some brood perhaps to encourage them to stay as well?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Okay. I'm recovering from the heat and have just sunk an irn bru so bear with me and my inane ramblings.
> 
> I attempted to catch a truly massive swarm in a 6 frame national nuc box. Unfortunately I kind of bodged it in and it was clearly too big for the box. So I have got half of it in another nuc box I had spare.
> 
> One of the nucs has a queen and the bees are fanning like mad at the entrance. The other I have closed. Can I stick a mated queen in the queenless half and bingo 2 swarmed nucs ? Or is it best to combine and chuck into a full sized hive when I can (might be a few days).
> 
> Okay the bru is kicking in. Onwards.


Hi GG
You might have problems getting them to accept a queen 
I've tried in the past with no success
You can get a second broodbox for a Payne's or Maisemore nuc
I would go with the excellent advice of putting them all in a broodbox instead 

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## greengumbo

> Hi GG
> You might have problems getting them to accept a queen 
> I've tried in the past with no success
> You can get a second broodbox for a Payne's or Maisemore nuc
> I would go with the excellent advice of putting them all in a broodbox instead 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Ah the fun and joy. 

So it turns out I had my halfs mixed up. Locked the one with the queen in by mistake thinking it was Q-ve and the one fanning like mad that I assumed was Q+ was not. The Q-ve one tried to bugger off but I stopped them again. This time I had a mated queen from an apidea into a cage and as soon as I put it in they started acting all happy.

So the upshot is I have 2 colonies from 1 swarm  :Smile:  Even if I did bugger up the process initially.

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## The Drone Ranger

It's a wonder that the queenless half didn't just either go back up the tree or back to the hive
They usually won't stay put without the queen  :Smile: 


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## Calluna4u

A fair number of apparently large swarm are actually composites, lots of flying bees get drawn into the excitement of the 'party' and tag along resulting in swarms you could not think of as coming from one of your own hives as it is so large.

However, most of the prime swarms have gone off already and what we are seeing coming into the bait boxes at home this past 2 weeks are all swarms with virgins, of varying sizes from 2 bars of bees up to a full box. 

Prior to arriving in these boxes they have generally hung around somewhere for a day or two until the virgins have eliminated eachother and one remains. Thus it is possible that BOTH halves of your swarm might have a queen, especially if it was not especially settled in its demeanour. The most virgins we have ever taken (just by picking them out) from a single large swarm is *17*. They generally hang around rather than go into their chosen destination until they have had their 'sort out'. Its also one of the reasons they do not like to stay put in new hives, although a bar of open brood can pin them, but not always. Closed brood is ineffective although they sometimes stay, probably more a coincidence of them being ready for a hive at the same time.

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## busybeephilip

Thats one thing i have been wondering about, last season someone told me of a big swarm clustered and observed coming from my apairy, i had dozens of apidea type boxes with virgins flying but when i checked my full hives all queens were present, however a few of the mating boxes had absconded.  I reckoned that the virgins had, as you say, attracted flying bees to create a swarm.  I now place my mating boxes well away from my hives to help avoid this sort of behavior happening (if it does).  could also be linked to the idea of Apairy Vacinity Mating.  I can picture that time of day when loads of young bees are making their first orientation flight being attracted to queen mating activities esp when there are 30 odd hives spewing young bees out at the same time.

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## Calluna4u

A tale of disaster related to the above from Phillip.  Disasters plague us all from time to time, so while this was a real waste of time and effort in the queen unit it just goes to show that nothing is foolproof and any beek that has never had a disaster is probably full of the fertiliser emanating from the male members of our bovine friends......

Think back only a short while...though it now seems so distant....to the heatwave of 3 days we had. We made a late start to the queen rearing this year due to the cold dry east winds not being the best for producing quality QC's. The first wave of mating boxes had been placed on their stands a few days earlier. The hot days were mayhem even in the cooler conditions in the forest where the mating boxes are and a significant swarm appeared about 20 feet up in a pine tree. From 15 to 20 of the mating boxes were either empty or severely bee depleted.

The swarm was seriously unsettled, moved location several times over the next three days, divided into multiple clusters and went back together again. After this they ended up on a fence post and were a bit quieter, without the masses of dancing bees waggling away on the face of the cluster. One of my guys on his own initiative hived it in a Langstroth nuc box, and to my surprise it stayed put. The carnage among the virgins must have been complete. Now it is in great order with a fine queen laying strongly. Its is almost entirely (we think) the product of the absconded mating boxes, so the sad part is all the lost virgins grafted and raised by Jolanta who found the whole episode disheartening. At least she did not have the full compliment set out already. One UK rearer, of long experience, who got going early told me he had zero success from his first 200 and what had not absconded had to be shaken out. Big loss. 

I tell Jolanta its just a freak weather pattern to blame and just to take it as one of these things and carry on. Its not an easy country to be a queen rearer on any scale.

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## greengumbo

> A tale of disaster related to the above from Phillip.  Disasters plague us all from time to time, so while this was a real waste of time and effort in the queen unit it just goes to show that nothing is foolproof and any beek that has never had a disaster is probably full of the fertiliser emanating from the male members of our bovine friends......
> 
> Think back only a short while...though it now seems so distant....to the heatwave of 3 days we had. We made a late start to the queen rearing this year due to the cold dry east winds not being the best for producing quality QC's. The first wave of mating boxes had been placed on their stands a few days earlier. The hot days were mayhem even in the cooler conditions in the forest where the mating boxes are and a significant swarm appeared about 20 feet up in a pine tree. From 15 to 20 of the mating boxes were either empty or severely bee depleted.
> 
> The swarm was seriously unsettled, moved location several times over the next three days, divided into multiple clusters and went back together again. After this they ended up on a fence post and were a bit quieter, without the masses of dancing bees waggling away on the face of the cluster. One of my guys on his own initiative hived it in a Langstroth nuc box, and to my surprise it stayed put. The carnage among the virgins must have been complete. Now it is in great order with a fine queen laying strongly. Its is almost entirely (we think) the product of the absconded mating boxes, so the sad part is all the lost virgins grafted and raised by Jolanta who found the whole episode disheartening. At least she did not have the full compliment set out already. One UK rearer, of long experience, who got going early told me he had zero success from his first 200 and what had not absconded had to be shaken out. Big loss. 
> 
> I tell Jolanta its just a freak weather pattern to blame and just to take it as one of these things and carry on. Its not an easy country to be a queen rearer on any scale.


Wow. Amazing set of events there Murray. Disheartening for Jolanta but its a neat set up she has there and I'm sure she'll bounce back.

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## Adam

I have never had nucs abscond during mating as you have described although I have had absconding from mini-nucs but not nucs with full-sized frames.

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## Calluna4u

> I have never had nucs abscond during mating as you have described although I have had absconding from mini-nucs but not nucs with full-sized frames.


These WERE mini nucs, worst of all were the Apideas. Nil abscondees from the mini plus size ones so far....but they did it last year.

Early season just could not afford to set up 1000 full size nucs, either in hardware costs or in robbing the main colonies for the bees and brood needed.

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## alancooper

So - is vQ mating dependent on nuc size? Is mating success greater in normal National brood frame nucs, intermediate size mini-nucs or small minis (eg, Apideas)?

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## Feckless Drone

I suspect the answer to all of Alan's questions is "depends". I raise Qs as replacements, to try and select for positive traits, to sell a couple of colonies each year and to have enough colonies and young Qs to unite for the heather.
On my scale its very convenient to have Qs on deep frames with their own bees and reduce risks of Q introductions. This year the weather has been decent and trying to get 9 new Qs on one site has given 7 decent, 1 that is noticeably smaller (scrub? and I know why) and 1 drone layer that I cannot yet find. These come from 2 and 3 frames mating nucs (with lots of stores - I'm paranoid about that since screw ups in the past) and a couple of strong colonies where the clipped Q beat me to swarm control. I suspect that the "grafters" will have similar OR BETTER rates of success. Its the next bit - the introductions where losses can occur. My own experience of introducing new Qs is pretty positive however - but this is only an n=2 experiment. And here I took some advice (thanks GR) and introduced to a relativity small nuc, got Q accepted before uniting with a bigger colonies that were needing to be re-queened. 

Aside - in Tayside: appears little nectar now coming in which is a surprise given the clover is out everywhere, its been warm and damp. I thought the gap was much closer to the end of the month. Anyone made observations?

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## fatshark

OSR is long gone south of the Tay but the bumbles at least were hammering the bramble when I was last out.
Of course, the pissistant rain last week has meant there's been no foraging going on ... and my access to the apiary is again flooded  :Frown: 
2017-06-13 16.38.52.jpg

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## Adam

> So - is vQ mating dependent on nuc size? Is mating success greater in normal National brood frame nucs, intermediate size mini-nucs or small minis (eg, Apideas)?


From my experience and without detailed note-taking, I don't think that mating success is that much different between nucs on standard frames, smaller boxes and mini-nucs although the risk of losing all the colony to a mating swarm may be a little higher. (Not had that problem myself). However having nucs on standard frames is better if you can spare them because, in no particular order:-

1) better chance of seeing the brood pattern of the queen rather than be on tiny frames.
2) can expand into a complete nuc to overwinter if started early.
3) no absconding
4) queen matures more slowly before laying and may be more reliable when introduced to a full-sized colony. (A hunch - I am open to be proved wrong).
5) less 'maintenance' and feeding compared to a small mini-nuc which can run out of room very quickly - so you are moving frames around to give space or having to move the queen out promptly.
6) robbing less of an issue with a larger colony
7) I suspect that a decent nuc will supercede a poor queen more readily than a very small mini-nuc colony; indicating there's a problem with her.

However the cost per mated queen is probably less using mini-nucs.

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## Feckless Drone

> However the cost per mated queen is probably less using mini-nucs.


Good summary Adam.

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## Jon

Philip, that was me told you that.
I was standing beside a hive which started to swarm.
I quickly checked the record sheet and noted that the queen was clipped.
Sure enough she dropped to the ground in front of the hive and I put her in a rollercage and returned her to the hive.
The swarm had clustered at this point and I waited for it to return as it should have been queenless.
After 45 minutes it was still hanging there so I went and collected it.
It had picked up a virgin from one of my apideas. I had about 40 with virgin queens at that site.

Calluna - I also had problems with virgin queens all taking to the air at the same time during the hot spell of 24-26 May.
At one site I reckon I lost at least 30 out of 50 and the remaining Apideas were mostly overpopulated.
Once you get fanning at the entrance they can call in workers and queens and carnage results.
In the past I have picked apart clusters and found 5 or 6 virgin queens from my apideas in them.
The problem is that the workers mutually ball the queens and you end up losing the lot.
I used to try and rescue them but they have nearly always been damaged.
Means that clipping is not a great guarantee as you could lose the prime swarm with a virgin from an apidea.

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## The Drone Ranger

> I
> Aside - in Tayside: appears little nectar now coming in which is a surprise given the clover is out everywhere, its been warm and damp. I thought the gap was much closer to the end of the month. Anyone made observations?


Hi FD
Gap sems to be starting now but there is a lot of stuff (weeds) that might be ready to flower in a week or two
My big colonies in smith hives or Lysons have loads of stores 
The nucs (which had a lot of wax to draw) some of them have next to no stores
I have too many bees here at the moment for available forage 
Will be fixing that next month when half go elsewhere to pastures new (literally)  :Smile:

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## alancooper

> Aside - in Tayside: appears little nectar now coming in which is a surprise given the clover is out everywhere, its been warm and damp. I thought the gap was much closer to the end of the month. Anyone made observations?


FD - In Fermanagh, flowering times in April and may have been 2-3 weeks earlier than usual - the "June gap" probably started when the sycamore flow stopped and (hawthorn and holly had largely finished flowering by 25th May. Since then there has been much pollen coming in but not much nectar.

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## greengumbo

Having read the thread on apideas absconding a few days ago.....low and behold I think one of mine did just that. Found a tiny swarm clinging to an apple tree. No bigger than my hand and with an unmarked queen in the middle. I have caught and stuck into another apidea. Not really sure what to do with it other than move to a new site and open it up again.

Weather was thundery so not checked which apidea is missing bees / queen.

Also split a lot of hives last few days but need to feed them as not much forage about and too high density of hives. They are in raiding mode as well. Any frames lying about the garden / sheds are getting hammered.

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## The Drone Ranger

the answer GG is to get a copy of "Breeding Better Bees" (£234.75 on Amazon) wave it around with a bit of Shamanic chanting
Ammm 🎵Ammm 🎵Ammm 🎵🎼 
Problem solved 🔔

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## gavin

> the answer GG is to get a copy of "Breeding Better Bees" (£234.75 on Amazon) ...


Wow!  Thought you were kidding there but apparently not.  Save yourself £226.75 by going to NBB. 

Might see some of you in Aberdeen tomorrow where we can all do the chanting and dancing together.  Rare appearance by one of the Mac Giolla Coda dynasty, should be good. 

G.

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## The Drone Ranger

Lol !
 I wondered w here you had gone Gavin 
best of luck with your get together 
weather is is to be fair and sunny 
Be careful you dont do a rain dance instead  :Smile: 


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## drumgerry

What's happening in Aberdeen tomorrow then?!   Is it a secret meeting for select SNHBS members?!  :Smile:

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## gavin

> What's happening in Aberdeen tomorrow then?!   Is it a secret meeting for select SNHBS members?!


Lol!  No, not one of our series of secret meetings but the Aberdeen and District Beekeeping Association's conference on Breeding Better Bees.  Timely, ambitious, great speakers (I'm just a warm-up act ... ).  Must dash .....

G.

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## drumgerry

How did I miss that this was happening?!  Oh well have a great day and report back! 


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## fatshark

Look on the bright side drumgerry (do you realise the spellcheck for your name corrects it to _drudgery_?) ... this is the first Saturday this season I've been free and on which the forecast is settled and good. I'd prefer to be beekeeping than sitting in a hall talking about beekeeping (though I've no doubt it'll be a good day).

I spoke in late March at a Welsh event - it was a really warm sunny day, perfect for a first inspection. Although the big audience seemed to enjoy themselves, I've no doubt that many of them would have realised the opportunity they were missing.

Time to get suited up ...  :Wink:

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## drumgerry

Sometimes Drudgery would be a more accurate username for me!  It's definitely a day to be outside.  Feels like swarmy weather here in Speyside

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## fatshark

Hot as hell in a bee suit all afternoon, but good to see how things are progressing. Looks like swarming has finished here for a bit. Colonies seem to be settling down. Forage is now patchy, but stores levels are reasonable and none of the colonies were too tetchy.

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## Bridget

I noticed last Sunday problems with one hive.  Discovered discarded pupae and some dead bees.  Starting feeding immediately all hives.  Since then they have taken down litres. One hive super back on today, others still draining their syrup. Pretty sure reason for lack of stores is big expansion of brood.  We have never had double brood on at this time of year here in the highlands.  Lots of pollen but little nectar.  Can anyone advise whether 1:1 or 1:2 is best in these circumstances at this time of year?  Also how long to continue feeding.  I would estimate they have taken down about 4-5 litres each. Can one go on feeding too long?  We don't have any great nectar flow here until the Heather starts.


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## The Drone Ranger

> Hot as hell in a bee suit all afternoon, but good to see how things are progressing. Looks like swarming has finished here for a bit. Colonies seem to be settling down. Forage is now patchy, but stores levels are reasonable and none of the colonies were too tetchy.


one of the mesh suits helps a lot
I bought the Mann Lake one
Mrs DR got a HumbleBee one  XXS for somebody just over 5ft 
Any lady beekeeper a couple of inches taller than 5ft should​ go to XS
Other manufacturers small size mesh suits will almost certainly be too big for vertically challenged females

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## madasafish

> I noticed last Sunday problems with one hive.  Discovered discarded pupae and some dead bees.  Starting feeding immediately all hives.  Since then they have taken down litres. One hive super back on today, others still draining their syrup. Pretty sure reason for lack of stores is big expansion of brood.  We have never had double brood on at this time of year here in the highlands.  Lots of pollen but little nectar.  Can anyone advise whether 1:1 or 1:2 is best in these circumstances at this time of year?  Also how long to continue feeding.  I would estimate they have taken down about 4-5 litres each. Can one go on feeding too long?  We don't have any great nectar flow here until the Heather starts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


1:1 .. is what I use in summer.. easily taken.. (I had to feed two nucs with no stores and full of brood..

How long? Until they start storing nectar/capped honey   - as then they have surplus stores.. Then I stop and review next inspection.

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## The Drone Ranger

Is DNA profiling practical as a method for identifying Native Bees ?
Or is morphology the only option available to the general beekeeping population
Im glad that chopping the wings off thousands of bees each year is no longer relevant
It did seem unreasonably cruel 
Could one drone recently hatched tell everything about the queens genetic heritage ?
Does Bibba have equipment for analysing DNA yet if not perhaps a lottery grant could be on the cards

I actively improve my bees all the time so have no issues with bee improvement 
Just a reasonable level of scepticism about ice age and Viking ancestor bees 
After all we dont have any Vikings running around the place now either
Is morphology just Crufts for bees (I like the look of the one )





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## Feckless Drone

> After all we dont have any Vikings running around the place now


You have obviously not been in Carnoustie on a Friday night! 

I guess if there are specific markers then its possible to type the bees by race. But - where would we find a true marker? Specimen from museums perhaps? I'm just becoming more and more aware of the large number of imports going way back - Amm from France and the Netherlands, the trend for caucasian bees in the 70s (?), both types even into north of the country. How similar are Amm from central France to what we had here? Does it matter? 

I'm in pessimistic mood given a weekend of making a botch of pretty much everything (damaging a nice Q when clipping, chasing one that flew of the comb, going to mark and clip a new Q only to find 3 lovely frames of brood and 5 mature Q cells, two colonies where new Q is now almost 5 weeks from emergence and not laying) and then watched a colony with an old clipped Q try to swarm a week before I was planning to unite. Have to deal with that one now. I would have been better off attending a day of lectures on basics never mind breeding better bees.

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## The Drone Ranger

sorry you have had a few issues FD it can be a bit disheartening
I stabbed a really good queen with a crown of thorns when marking 
That was a couple of years back
This year I thought I had decapitated a really good queen when marking with the one handed queen marking gadget
She curled up looked dead I put her back in the hive anyway
luckily she was playing possum and next check was there in good health
Just catch them by hand and mark them now  :Smile: 

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## Adam

I've not stabbed with a crown of thorns as I pick up queens or just hold them on the comb to mark them,  but did once chop a queen in a queen cage.
I've not ha d a queen faint on me for a while now. It can be a bit disconcerting for a few moments until she stops playing dead.

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## Bridget

> 1:1 .. is what I use in summer.. easily taken.. (I had to feed two nucs with no stores and full of brood..
> 
> How long? Until they start storing nectar/capped honey   - as then they have surplus stores.. Then I stop and review next inspection.


Thank you



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## greengumbo

I feed my splits, well those that are in apiaries with full sized colonies, with fondant at this time of year to discourage robbing as I have a tendency to slosh syrup all over the place ! They take down fondant and use it readily. 

Went round the splits I made after spring honey crop last night and knocked down queen cells ready for mated queens  :Smile: 

Lots of clover out at the moment and bees still working rasps and blackberries. Some summer rape up here as well. Rosebay willow herb shooting up so will be open soonish.

Do (honey) bees get anything from buttercups ?

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## Jambo

> Do (honey) bees get anything from buttercups ?


My reading says no. Apparently they are toxic and bees tend to avoid them totally. Have you seen yours on them?

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## greengumbo

A few times but not in huge numbers.

Pity as huge swathes of them here this year.

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## Jambo

> A few times but not in huge numbers.
> 
> Pity as huge swathes of them here this year.


I was about to say likewise then realised we're in the same area!

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## fatshark

The bees were really obnoxious when I inspected them this afternoon. All the worse because I've been splitting colonies and both the upper and lower boxes needed inspection. I got so fed up getting pinged and generally roughed-up that I packed up and walked away from the last stack. No stings, but that was more luck than judgement. 

Funny (not funny ha ha) how their temper changes with a falling barometer, the flow stopping, me taking all their supers and then wanting to rummage through the downstairs neighbours ...

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## lindsay s

Dull, cool (12-14⁰c), very windy and showers here today.  Three hives had to be inspected and a split was carried out in between the showers. We had a couple of calm evenings mid-week so most of my inspections were done then, but still its not easy when all the bees are home for the night. We didnt get any heat wave last week and when high pressure is in charge down south all the s!!! weather gets pushed over the top of us.
 Two weeks ago most of my hives were bursting with bees, supers were being added and new foundation was getting drawn and laid up in about five to six days. Fast forward to now, queens have almost stopped laying, foundation is being ignored and the most worrying thing of the lot is their stores are rapidly diminishing. We dont suffer from the June gap here and at one apiary there are fields of clover within spitting distance of the hives, its just the weather thats holding things back.
Oh the JOYS of beekeeping in Orkney.

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## greengumbo

Had a look around the SBA tent at the RHS this weekend. Looking good and great to catch up with familiar faces.

Some nice honey on display as well.

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## Jambo

> Rosebay willow herb shooting up so will be open soonish.


Spotted my first open flower of RBWH this morning so optimistic mine will survive!

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## The Drone Ranger

A lot of my hives have responded to the lack of forage by practically stopping brood rearing
Some are a little behind the curve with lots of sealed brood less larva
One or two are just coming into lay again

If there is no stores smoke has no effect on them and a light spray with some sugar water might be better 

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## fatshark

Hi DR ... yes, I'm sure this is a temporary skirmish only. Most of the hives I've been checking are newly mated queens (the top part of my splits) and they're all laying really well. Stores levels are good as - during the time the Q was getting ready to do her stuff - the bees were piling in the nectar. Now there's nothing coming in they get very protective.

Actually, not entirely correct to say no flow ... it's raining this morning and is predicted to do so all day. I have to split off a nuc from a colony in the shed which are determined to otherwise swarm. 

Wrong sort of flow  :Frown:

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## Adam

> Lots of clover out at the moment and bees still working rasps and blackberries. Some summer rape up here as well. Rosebay willow herb shooting up so will be open soonish.


Rosebay Willowherb is in full flower in my part of the world.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Hi DR ... yes, I'm sure this is a temporary skirmish only. Most of the hives I've been checking are newly mated queens (the top part of my splits) and they're all laying really well. Stores levels are good as - during the time the Q was getting ready to do her stuff - the bees were piling in the nectar. Now there's nothing coming in they get very protective.
> 
> Actually, not entirely correct to say no flow ... it's raining this morning and is predicted to do so all day. I have to split off a nuc from a colony in the shed which are determined to otherwise swarm. 
> 
> Wrong sort of flow


Hi fatshark
I think your forage will get better sooner than here
I'm a bit higher up and agriculture is mainly arable
The three crop rotation is potatoes, wheat, OSR
Rain today so feeding the ones which are low




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## greengumbo

> Hi fatshark
> I think your forage will get better sooner than here
> I'm a bit higher up and agriculture is mainly arable
> The three crop rotation is potatoes, wheat, OSR
> Rain today so feeding the ones which are low
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


My splits are doing fine with stores but the main hives are very low and I had to nip round and feed 13 hives last night in the rain. One had almost nothing left.

Brood rearing had stopped in most of them. A bit of sun and I think they will find forage soon. The on off rain has put everything back this past week or so.

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## Calluna4u

> My splits are doing fine with stores but the main hives are very low and I had to nip round and feed 13 hives last night in the rain. One had almost nothing left.
> 
> Brood rearing had stopped in most of them. A bit of sun and I think they will find forage soon. The on off rain has put everything back this past week or so.



Its a really dire nectar dearth right now. Plenty pollen, very little nectar. Nothing building up here now, expansion at a dead stop.....unless feeding.

Boys report that three small splits in Aberdeenshire had actually keeled over due to lack of food. Casts arriving in the last fortnight are dying unless fed. Good news is that the bell is early but some have bolted for the hills way too early. You only get a yield once the bigger acreages of bell come out AND the temp is above normal.

Clover rarely yields thee days. Willowherb is greatly overestimated in amateur circles, and the limes in most of our places are not yielding despite many being in flower. 

Hungry times.

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## mbc

Same down here, I'm enjoying the dearth in a way as its provided me with a window of opportunity nicking any full supers from the last warm spell without there being a nectar shake to confuse matters.
I heard talk of a swing in the jet stream possibly bringing back some settled weather next week, if so then it could be the season of seasons.

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## busybeephilip

> Philip, that was me told you that..


Just catching up after being away in St Petersberg on 2 week hols  - bees not too bad just a few swarms lost

I said..
"last season someone told me of a big swarm clustered and observed coming from my apairy, i had dozens of apidea type boxes with virgins flying but when i checked my full hives all queens were present, however a few of the mating boxes had absconded."


Dont think so - you dont know where i keep my bees and its in a restricted area !

Phil

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## Jon

Wrong end of the stick. I told you that had happened to me. I had a prime swarm leave and it picked up a virgin from one of my apideas. The clipped queen dropped in front of the hive and I caged her.

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## busybeephilip

Shit weather today - wanted to set up 10 mating boxes with 10 Qs in the incubator waiting to go and several waiting to set out, but hey ho  its fun

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## Jon

Same here. I have a few queens in the incubator and have almost run out of Apideas.

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## Jambo

> Clover rarely yields thee days. Willowherb is greatly overestimated in amateur circles, and the limes in most of our places are not yielding despite many being in flower. 
> 
> Hungry times.


First year in beekeeping and I had pinned most of my hopes of a harvest on being surrounded by willowherb, this isn't the news I need!

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## greengumbo

> First year in beekeeping and I had pinned most of my hopes of a harvest on being surrounded by willowherb, this isn't the news I need!


You never know ! 

I have no idea what mine are on at the moment but it was pissing down and at 8pm one hive was still foraging in force. So much I went to check nearby hives were not getting robbed or they had found a way into my extracting room. But no....up and off over a field. Odd.

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## Jambo

> You never know ! 
> 
> I have no idea what mine are on at the moment but it was pissing down and at 8pm one hive was still foraging in force. So much I went to check nearby hives were not getting robbed or they had found a way into my extracting room. But no....up and off over a field. Odd.


Really, I had just assumed mine would be hiding inside today and didn't go and check them. Brambles have really opened up this week, could be on them?

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## fatshark

> You never know ! 
> 
> I have no idea what mine are on at the moment but it was pissing down and at 8pm one hive was still foraging in force. So much I went to check nearby hives were not getting robbed or they had found a way into my extracting room. But no....up and off over a field. Odd.


Did you see them coming back though? ... perhaps they were abandoning the NE of Scotland. 

It's official ... the wettest June on record in Fife. I am pleased to announce the selection and successful mating of a new honey bee subspecies ...

_Apis mellifera aquaticus_

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## alancooper

Jambo - best to have your "location" to give geographic context to your flowering time observations. There are considerable differences depending on how far N/S or E/W

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## fatshark

Jambo means 'thing' in Swahili ... Tanzania? Congo? Rwanda?

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## Jambo

> Jambo - best to have your "location" to give geographic context to your flowering time observations. There are considerable differences depending on how far N/S or E/W


Yes indeed, didn't realise I had omitted that. Hopefully fixed now, thanks!




> Jambo means 'thing' in Swahili ... Tanzania? Congo? Rwanda?


Always thought it meant hello?  None of the above, though I do have some African roots and lived on that wonderful continent for over three years - nothing to do with the username though  :Smile:

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## fatshark

hujambo Jambo = Hello thing!

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## busybeephilip

I always thought "Jambo" meant hello , that is what I was uttering to the natives in kenya, must have been right otherwise i'd be on the flo, nepana sante

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## Jambo

:Smile:  

My bees are going mad for this weed at the moment - any idea what it is? Seems to produce copious amounts of bright green pollen.

 Thanks.

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## Jane S

> My bees are going mad for this weed at the moment - any idea what it is? Seems to produce copious amounts of bright green pollen.
> 
>  Thanks.



_Filipendula ulmaria_, likes the damp, flowers smell, er  sweet.

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## Jambo

> _Filipendula ulmaria_, likes the damp, flowers smell, er  sweet.


Aha, meadowsweet, thank you.

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## Poly Hive

Interesting day. Some nucs have mated well and are motering but two big units have failed to mate after a month so test frames are in. 
Went through some colonies belonging to a lady I am mentoring and one of the nucs we created now on 5 frames of brood is a gem. Quiet bees, they froze on the comb, and no smoke needed at all. No flying at us no stinging... hmm.... I can see some grafting from her next year. 

I perpetually live in hope. 

PH

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## Feckless Drone

Saw Himalayan balsam in flower on Balgay hill. Nightmare - we've gone from June gap to autumn in one week almost. Bees (all types) loving the Hypericum at the moment, for the pollen mostly I guess. Every garden should have these.

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## Poly Hive

Willow herb is out here in the Borders which seems to me to be very early. I hear the Bell is out too so are we looking at a very early Ling season?

PH

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## Greengage

Everything is approx. three weeks ahead of time over here so far lets hope it lasts and we get second flush of flowers,  too late for trees everything has set seed. sugar can be expensive.

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## The Drone Ranger

honeysuckle, russian vine , cow parsley, clover loads of flowering stuff in July if the rain stays away

I have had half a dozen of my mininucs fail after a promising start but still 20+ on the go 


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## Poly Hive

It's very odd here but I have a fair bit of wild clover in the lawn and not a honey bee to be seen on it it's being worked by lots of bumbles instead. 

PH

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## Greengage

Today bright and sunny here ours were on Mustard, Clover, Escellonia, Echium, Phacelia, Hogweed and Willow-herb.

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## fatshark

Had use of a van yesterday and dropped into a well-known trade supplier for building materials to buy a couple of sheets of Kingspan/Celotex for insulation purposes.

Overall-clad TP employee _"Afternoon mate, what are you after?_
fatshark _"A couple of 8x4 sheets of Kingspan"_
Overall-clad TP employee _"What thickness are you after?"_
fatshark _"50mm"_
Overall-clad TP employee _"Nope ... no 50mm in stock"_
fatshark _"What thickness do you have? 25mm?"_
Overall-clad TP employee _"Nothing at all ... "_

I thanked him for his help and returned to the van giggling ...

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## Adam

> Today bright and sunny here ours were on Mustard, Clover, Escellonia, Echium, Phacelia, Hogweed and Willow-herb.


I didn't know that bees worked hogweed.

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## Feckless Drone

FS - you have to admire the clarity in communication! and the entertainment value as well.

Unrelated - bell heather, I've missed it again.

Tonights job - involves a ladder, a neighbour, dodgy brickwork and dealing with a small swarm. Mea culpa.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> I didn't know that bees worked hogweed.


Pollen, said Gavin - here.  I occasionally see them foraging on that here as well.

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## Jambo

My bees have started on some new forage today - loads of them coming back fully loaded in bright green pollen, with their 'noses' and bellies covered too - any ideas? Similar colour to meadowsweet pollen but this doesn't seem to cover them the same way. 

I've got plenty of hogweed and brambles around, meadowsweet, and willowherb is getting going. 

I'll see if I can get a photo later when I'm suited up, they look ridiculous.

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## Kate Atchley

The limes's in full bloom here so bees picking up. 

I found the start of swarm cells in a colony I'd failed to check for a while. The largest of these was 24 hours short of being capped, I reckon, with a neat hole on the side of the cell wall, as you see sometimes when the queen attacks additional swarm cells. 

Could the Queen (2015) have been having a funk about the workers' planned changes or what caused the cell wall hole?

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## Jambo

Here's a photo further to my post earlier, they're enjoying whatever it is.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... I found the start of swarm cells in a colony  ... with a neat hole on the side of the cell wall, as you see sometimes when the queen attacks additional swarm cells. 
> 
> Could the Queen (2015) have been having a funk about the workers' planned changes or what caused the cell wall hole?


I had to look up what 'funk' means.  I would not be surprised if the queen had a funk facing such an uncertain future away from her cosy home.  But it might also have been the workers who decided the time is not ripe - or, could you have overlooked an open queen cell from which a virgin might have emerged recently?
Kitta

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## Kate Atchley

> Here's a photo further to my post earlier, they're enjoying whatever it is.


Are you sure there'e no meadowsweet out around you? I'm seeing the first flowers out here in Ardnamurchan. The centered bee looks as though she could be carrying meadowsweet and I've found that flower's pollen loads, in particular, vary in colour from pale yellowy green through to a darker, more rusty-coloured version.

The right hand bee with a different green pollen could be carrying raspberry perhaps?

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## Jambo

Thanks Kate. There is tons of meadowsweet around, but I hasn't previously noticed them being covered all over in it which I thought seemed quite distinctive.

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## Kate Atchley

> I had to look up what 'funk' means.  I would not be surprised if the queen had a funk facing such an uncertain future away from her cosy home.  But it might also have been the workers who decided the time is not ripe - or, could you have overlooked an open queen cell from which a virgin might have emerged recently?
> Kitta


All of the above Kitta! However, having kept an eye on the colony, I think the time lapse between a virgin queen emerging (from an un-noticed cell) to do the damage, and these half-formed Q cells, is too long to be likely ... and would the old queen not have swarmed? No sign of her flying off.

The workers have now gone on to complete all the cells, including repairing the one with the neat hole. I'd separated them from the queen by then so who knows who did the damage.  

My bet is on the queen in a funk ... but finding nothing inside the hole to sting, the new queen larva being still buried in royal jelly deep in the cell. Wish I'd taken a pic!

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## Adam

Were they definitely swarm cells you had - could it be supercedure that they or the queen decided against? 
_(I harvested a few supercedure queencells from one colony last year and then they decided to keep the queen anyway so she headed up a colony all this summer until a couple of weeks ago - she had started to fade, and has now been retired for now with the colony being united to a strong nuc. Interestingly the old queen has 5 1/2 legs with the bottom half of one back leg missing. I am not sure whether it went before she was introduced to a small nuc or as a result of it)_.

... So being separated from the queen you now have to decide on what to do with the queencells.

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## Kate Atchley

> Were they definitely swarm cells you had - could it be supercedure that they or the queen decided against? 
> _(I harvested a few supercedure queencells from one colony last year and then they decided to keep the queen anyway so she headed up a colony all this summer until a couple of weeks ago - she had started to fade, and has now been retired for now with the colony being united to a strong nuc. Interestingly the old queen has 5 1/2 legs with the bottom half of one back leg missing. I am not sure whether it went before she was introduced to a small nuc or as a result of it)_.
> 
> ... So being separated from the queen you now have to decide on what to do with the queencells.


Yes they might have been superseder cells and I'm keeping an eye on the Q and frames. She's in her second season and been laying fantastically well so I sense they were probably swarm cells but now split between two nucs so, if they need a new queen, I am likely to be able to return one of them (if the rain ever stops to allow for Q mating!).

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## Jambo

First good flying day this week in Aberdeenshire yesterday, spotted blue pollen coming in which I believe to be willowherb. It's not quite in full bloom where I am but getting there.

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## prakel

Stray cat living in empty dadant brood body.

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## fatshark

Looked through photos from apiary visit last w/e as it's raining (again) ... nice laying pattern from this 2017 queen.
170708-06.jpg
This is a wired frame so I'd usually expect the typical V pattern.

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## Bridget

> Looked through photos from apiary visit last w/e as it's raining (again) ... nice laying pattern from this 2017 queen.
> 170708-06.jpg
> This is a wired frame so I'd usually expect the typical V pattern.


This taken about the same time from a split done earlier this year, probably May.  You didn't seem to have much in the way of stores in that frame.  We were pleased with this and it was my first day back at the bees since desensitisation started.  I was holding the camera!




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## Bridget

Looking at the two photos together my bees look quite a bit darker. 


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## fatshark

Good to see you back with the bees Bridget.
That's a rather swish beesuit in the background of your photo.
Mine had stores elsewhere in the box.
These queens are the widely used _Heinz_ strain ... 57 varieties. There's a bit of everything in there  :Wink:

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## Bridget

> Good to see you back with the bees Bridget.
> That's a rather swish beesuit in the background of your photo.
> Mine had stores elsewhere in the box.
> These queens are the widely used _Heinz_ strain ... 57 varieties. There's a bit of everything in there


Yes well re the swish beesuit....... present to husband because he gets awfie hot in the normal suits and this well ventilated one, offa eBay via India seems o be working well for him.


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## Feckless Drone

You know how you have a plan? - I'm checking colonies and getting ready to unite for the heather. Three Qs that were mated when the weather was good, started laying well in June, were marked and clipped and have now gone. I have not been inspecting these small colonies regularly (just wanted to leave them to build up) but in two cases they left me with Q cells and now new Qs just started laying. These bees will not be that much help at the heather, too young, too old, too few. The third case was yesterday - colony had no brood, small patch of eggs and the marked/clipped Q was nowhere to be seen but I did find another Q. Again, not going to be much help for honey now. I've not noticed this problem before - the colonies are of course weaker than those where the Qs just got going. Anyone else seeing this? I thought that once the new Q got going there was not much call for regular inspections but may have to revise that.

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## fatshark

Queens mated in early/mid June have been a bit dodgy here. I've had a couple vaporise, leaving Q cells. Others simply never got mated and turned into drone layers.

One drone layer I shook out but was rushed and forgot to move the hive they came from (but left it turned round). They clustered on the outside for 3 days until I returned. Again I was in a rush so I just shook them into a box with some drawn comb. A week later there was no sign of drone layers, but they nearly filled the box with nectar. I united this with a nuc and they're now doing fine.

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## Poly Hive

I have 18 nucs under observation not all mine some belong to the BBA, but I am keeping a wary eye on how they get on, as some at least of the mating happened during that cool wet spell we had. Time will tell as it always does. 

PH

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## Thymallus

> Yes well re the swish beesuit....... present to husband because he gets awfie hot in the normal suits and this well ventilated one, offa eBay via India seems o be working well for him.


Looks very similar to the Oz armor ventilated suits. Treated myself to one of theirs for this hot weather, money very well spent.  No  more working in a sauna....and midge proof  :Smile:

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## fatshark

And you thought that retrieving supers from that stroppy colony in your out apiary was a pain ...



_Apis dorsata laboriosa_ in Nepal ... a topic covered previously by Eric Tourneret in his book _Cueilleurs de miel_ but awe-inspiring nevertheless. The video accompanies an article in National Geographic this month.

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## Jambo

Lots and lots of blue pollen coming in - is there anything other than RBWH at this time of year that yields pollen like this?

IMG_7763_cropped.jpg

Also has anyone got any tips on photographing flying bees!? Not easy!

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## fatshark

One of these rigs perhaps?
insect-rig-front.jpg

It's neat how they store the pollen by colour in the frames. Mine have individual cells packed with the RBWH pollen, interspersed with some yellow stuff.

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## RDMW

Good result from my new water boiler

Nice clean frames (boiler no longer shiny)



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## RDMW

And from my homemade solar wax extractor -980 grams 


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## RDMW

Here is a flying bee. It's a bit fuzzy but not bad with an iPhone (California lilac)



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## Jambo

> One of these rigs perhaps?
> insect-rig-front.jpg
> 
> It's neat how they store the pollen by colour in the frames. Mine have individual cells packed with the RBWH pollen, interspersed with some yellow stuff.


Ha maybe that's what I need.

Yes... I suppose they must do it by taste, as not even bees can differentiate colours in the dark, surely?  And has anyone ever proposed a theory for why they might bother doing this?

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## Adam

> And from my homemade solar wax extractor -980 grams 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


980 g and a sink!  :Smile: 
Can we see inside the extractor? And what's the wire for?

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## RDMW

The wire is for a thermometer. One day it got up to 102 degrees! That was too hot and I think scorched the wax a bit.  


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## RDMW

Here is the inside. I bought the metal work from thornes and made the rest from plywood. It is insulated with several layers of metallic bubblewrap stuff from B&Q and double glazed with two sheets of 4 mm window glass. I was surprised by how clean the wax it produces is and it is clean and there is no risk of fire in comparison to trying to render comb over a double boiler on the stove. Should last forever (well as long as I will)


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## gavin

The blue pollen there looks like Phacelia.  It is quite widely planted by gardeners, bee enthusiasts and even on a field scale.  I was delighted to see a field appear recently near one of my apiaries and less pleased to find out that the farmer mowed it in full flower.  Rosebay willowherb is more of a slate grey/blue and due to the huge size of the pollen grains the loads have a rough surface.

There is a picture of the pollen load in this earlier discussion:
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh.../page277&pp=10

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## Adam

Thanks RDMW. I have yet to make/buy/bodge a solar extractor.. It's probably one of those things that once I have one, I will say that I should have bought one years ago!

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## Jambo

> The blue pollen there looks like Phacelia.  It is quite widely planted by gardeners, bee enthusiasts and even on a field scale.  I was delighted to see a field appear recently near one of my apiaries and less pleased to find out that the farmer mowed it in full flower.  Rosebay willowherb is more of a slate grey/blue and due to the huge size of the pollen grains the loads have a rough surface.
> 
> There is a picture of the pollen load in this earlier discussion:
> http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh.../page277&pp=10


Thanks Gavin.  Haven't seen any of that about but will keep an eye out for it!

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## RDMW

Made some fondant. First attempt. Using 1 kg sucrose and 25 g glucose with 300 mls water and boiled to 240 f. 


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## RDMW

Ok that didn't work! Much too runny and a sugary mess 
Al the recipes on the net seem to involve marshmallows and glycerine. Any words of wisdom ( Apart from buying it commercially) I have 40 kg of sugar in the cupboard 


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## Feckless Drone

Fed up of sweating buckets when at the bees and I am either going to need wipers for the glasses or a different suit. There were recent posts about a good suit, possibly Australian, but my searches have not found it. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?

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## gavin

> Fed up of sweating buckets when at the bees and I am either going to need wipers for the glasses or a different suit. There were recent posts about a good suit, possibly Australian, but my searches have not found it. Can anyone point me in the right direction please?


In this weather?!  

You could also invest in contact lenses and use your own natural windscreen wipers!

I've wondered about copying a friend who uses a headband.  It makes him look slightly hippyish but I think I could live with that.  

I do sweat but I had assumed slender fit guys like yourself may have less of a problem  :Smile:

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## fatshark

I have the physique of a racing whippet (more or less, ahem!) but, despite being a highly trained athlete I still perspire (or at least glow) slightly on a warm day. 

I also highly recommend a sweatband. Make sure you wash it as often as you wash the suit - it can get distinctly ripe.

It helps if you also hum along to _Twisting by the pool_ as you prize the crownboard off ... 

rs-136407-fd6b474b5bc660366d62adf802daeb106c42e81d.jpg

I'll be marketing a new beesuit for Fife beekeepers next year ... it's made of neoprene.

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## gavin

Can you also buy chestbands and tummybands?!  

There was one day in the recent past (might have been early last week) when I spent an hour out in a beesuit in the pouring rain getting colonies ready for a heather move, taking advantage of another wet day to get the whole thing done early.  I can confirm that the suit wasn't waterproof.  Nor were my jeans, t-shirt, wallet .... thankfully I had left the phone in the truck and the chippie in Kirrie still took damp tenners.

The heavy rain turned into hill fog and lugging hives out on a hillside in that fog in the gloaming with my chosen CD blaring out of the pick-up (no-one for miles) was one of those delightful experiences that lighten the spirits and make it all worthwhile.

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## gavin

At the queen rearing workshop on Saturday my colleagues had insisted on organising a series of gazebos 'just in case'.  I had poo-pooed the idea, fool that I am.  The rain was torrential in the middle of the afternoon but we just calmly carried on lifting frames, finding queens and sharing techniques for grabbing and marking them.  The Amms were all on their very best behaviour and just calmly accepted the situation.

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## gavin

While I'm in blether mode, I was pleased to visit an apiary yesterday a km or so from the Tay.  The air was full of heavy workers coming home (you know that low hum of a heavy worker coming home?) most of them with a white stripe down the back.  The Himalayan balsam is in full swing early this year.

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## fatshark

> ... you know that low hum of a heavy worker coming home? ...


No

I remember it in the dim and distant past ...

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## Bridget

> While I'm in blether mode, I was pleased to visit an apiary yesterday a km or so from the Tay.  The air was full of heavy workers coming home (you know that low hum of a heavy worker coming home?) most of them with a white stripe down the back.  The Himalayan balsam is in full swing early this year.


We stood outside our hives tonight and the smell of honey was really strong. Heather honey here.


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## Calluna4u

> We stood outside our hives tonight and the smell of honey was really strong. Heather honey here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Yes indeed Brigit. its one of the heaviest ling flows *at this date* for many years right now. Weather looks like it might go crunch around 16th/17th....so take it while its there. Bees over at Kincraig have in many cases filled a deep from foundation in only about four or five days. Seems to be in all our areas to a greater or lesser extent. we are facing running out of gear for the first time since 2008..........and it has all turned around in the last week.

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## Feckless Drone

Bridget, C4U - Enough already! Its the hope that kills me. Saw these posts and was tempted to run home and make up some frames. Just found C4U on twitter with some lovely pictures. My bees should be within a hen harriers flying range of one of C4U's sites so fingers crossed.
Its an exposed site but the sounds made by large numbers of lapwings, skylarks, oyster catchers, curlews and grouse are pretty wonderful.

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## Bridget

> Yes indeed Brigit. its one of the heaviest ling flows *at this date* for many years right now. Weather looks like it might go crunch around 16th/17th....so take it while its there. Bees over at Kincraig have in many cases filled a deep from foundation in only about four or five days. Seems to be in all our areas to a greater or lesser extent. we are facing running out of gear for the first time since 2008..........and it has all turned around in the last week.


If we could ever get hives as strong as yours I still don't think they would fill a deep as quick as yours. However  learnt lots from your talk last year and seen an improvement already.  If you are passing by while checking your bees pop in.  Can't promise a pizza this time but you never know , Fraser always keen get get the oven lit.


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## Poly Hive

Excellent news C$U.

I very much doubt Chain Bridge is in the same boat unless they move up north too? Bloody useless around here at the moment apart from pollen from the HB. Give it another week or so then take off the empty supers and start feeding. 

Sighs.

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

Last week's news:  I was on Gavin's - or rather, the Ochils Breeding Group's, excellent queen-rearing course last weekend, and came home with a queen cell.  I think a queen has emerged, but the clues are a bit confusing.  She might also have been killed before emerging.  I'll find out soon enough.

queen cell.jpg

And today's news:  I have been on the heather with the association visiting Murray's apiary.  It was so good and, as on any visit to Murray, I learned a lot.  I like this photo - that elegant contrapposto:

IMG_20170813_135423.jpg

Kitta

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## Jambo

Really enjoyed the visit to the heather with Murray today too - I'm the glaikit one above Murray's left shoulder in your photo!

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## Calluna4u

It was a pleasure having you all, as always. Thank you for those who got stuck and helped me through doing the site. You all saw the rather quick reuniting process in action too although some worried about the fate of the queens. Was nice to see some honey on board and glad that as far as I could see, only a black wooly sock wearer got unwelcome attention. Weather a bit dodgy unfortunately, which you guys almost always seem to get, but todays rain gives us a break and what comes down this week will keep the heather fresh all the way to seasons end. Looks good.

Must get a smaller bee suit.....looks like an wrinkly yellow elephant that's gone through a car wash in that pic!!!

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Must get a smaller bee suit.....looks like an wrinkly yellow elephant that's gone through a car wash in that pic!!!


Now you've put a whole new image in my head, C4U: by combining those two images, I now only see a small yellow elephant pirouetting in the middle of a circle of beehives.  I think that's preferable to the car-wash image.

Kitta

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## lindsay s

The last of my supers were cleared and taken home tonight and all hives bar two are now on syrup. Its been a mixed picture for me this year. Although I made up less nucs than I planned for, their queens got mated and are now doing well. My town apiary is quite exposed and the honey crop this year was very poor. Two colonies with 14x12 brood frames stored all their honey down below and put nothing in the supers, Im going to finish with 14x12 frames but Ill leave that for another post. As for the rest Ill be lucky if they average 14-18lbs per colony.
I had moved three hives to a good clover site ten miles away and they have saved the day. They managed to nearly fill eight supers between them.  As usual demand for my honey is far higher than the supply despite keeping more colonies. There is not much you can do if the bees dont produce the goods.
Is it safe to ask how everyone elses honey crop has been this year or will I be met with a deafening silence?

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## Feckless Drone

Hi there - still got extracting to do and when it settles will get back to you on this.

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## Jambo

I'll jump in since I'm a beginner and have done infinitely better than last year  :Smile: 

Started with two nucs late April, harvested about 15 lbs of lovely blossom honey last weekend. About 12 lbs of it came from one hive. A modest harvest but for year one I'm delighted!

The hive with the tiny yield tried to swarm and got split.

So now taking three good colonies into winter, and I've got about 50 frames of drawn comb that I didn't have 6 months ago so that alone gets me ahead for next year  :Smile: 

Hoping next year I can get my average production cost per jar down into double figures...

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## gavin

> Is it safe to ask how everyone else’s honey crop has been this year or will I be met with a deafening silence?


Spring:  OSR more or less failed but many of my colonies flew instead to bring in a fairly decent spring blossom crop.  Sycamore, bird cherry, whatever they could find.  I guess the deep roots of the trees helped in the dry spring, as did the reasonably vigorous overwintered Amm queens (and some hybrids).  Overall average of 25lb/production colony. 

Summer: washout.  The very strongest colonies brought in some light summer blossom (must be some clover and some RBW in the mix) or darker blossom (bramble perhaps) plus just a little lime here and there.  Summer harvest was under half that from spring and pretty poor.  As is usual in poorer conditions, only the strongest colonies produced honey.  A bit of poorly controlled swarming didn't help either  :Embarrassment: .

Heather: probably average.  Heavy, heavy brood boxes and one or two supers jam-packed.  

Balsam:  Why did I bother leaving some for the balsam?!  Murray always gives good advice but I don't always listen.  Plenty of bee activity but only the odd half super here and there, some of it mixed with coneflower which is colonising the Tay.  'Rudbeckia-bashing' can't be far away and this time I might join in.  It isn't a nice honey.  However the coneflower is now over and the balsam will have a while yet to work its magic.

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## lindsay s

Thanks for the replies so far and Im sorry if the last sentence of my previous post seems a bit offhand. The main reason most of us keep bees is for the honey at the end of the season and I think a lot of beekeepers seem to be reluctant to share details about their harvest. Prove me wrong?

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## Beeman

Probably not of huge interest to the Scottish beeks but I do follow your site closely..over in n ireland best season I've had in recent years. Took hives to Armagh for May apple blossom, hit a super hot month,back up to County Down ,June a bit crap, then July was just good enough temps 16-20 and did well on clover and blackberry. 8 hives ,averaged 50 lbs overall ,
which is pretty good for this part of the world.

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## madasafish

> Is it safe to ask how everyone else’s honey crop has been this year or will I be met with a deafening silence?


8 jumbo langs in back garden about 0.25miles from National Trust Garden (BiddulphGrange ) and assorted woods/homes/cows.
Only 3-4 produced this year due to weakness of others (since rectified requeening).
One used as a Queen raiser. Cloake Board - produced about 40lbs - left on hives to overwinter.Three remaining produced 170 or so pounds (some not bottled)  plus about another 50 left for bees..

Summer ended mid July and it rained and rained  and...

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## fatshark

Not dissimilar to Gavin (geographically unsurprising) ... about 25lb/colony of Spring honey. Almost nothing in the summer. I've just jarred the latter. Excellent flavour, but barely worth the effort. Didn't take anything to the heather and all colonies now munching down the fondant.

From a honey production standpoint my worst ever season since the year after I started. 

From a more general beekeeping point of view a reasonably rewarding season. Only aware of one swarm missed, almost always knew what state individual hives were in, bait hives worked, requeening via splits went well, colonies - with one exception (and likely to be united soon) - looking in very good order. Extremely low _Varroa_ levels apparent now treatment has started.

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## lindsay s

Ive been feeding more syrup to the bees today and was surprised at the speed its being taken down.  I hefted a few hives and found them to be very light, probably because they are still strong and theres very little forage coming in. A reminder to any new or lazy beekeepers out there dont SCRIMP on the autumn feeding, because its too late when you find theyve died out. 
I spent a little time observing the front of three hives today and I wouldnt like to be a Drone (Ranger) at the moment. The bees are throwing them out onto the landing boards with a vengeance and even Tonto wouldnt have been able to stop the ensuing massacre. This time last year I found hundreds of dead bees outside one of my hives and I thought it might have been the result of robbing, but on closer inspection over 90% of them were drones.
Im taking over the airing cupboard tonight and will dehumidify and warm up my unsealed honeycombs, it works a treat if youre careful with what youre doing.

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## madasafish

> Is it safe to ask how everyone else’s honey crop has been this year or will I be met with a deafening silence?


62lbs last year, 170lbs this.
Left 60lbs for bees this year - none last.

That's with only 4 out of 8 lang  jumbos firing on all frames.

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## Bridget

Too early to say here. Won't take boxes off for about a other 10 days.  But expecting at least double last year's.  However last year we did not perform that well as Beekeepers and this year we put the lessons learnt to good use.  So our honey crop is not always a reflection of the weather or heather! 🤣


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## Feckless Drone

> Is it safe to ask how everyone elses honey crop has been this year or will I be met with a deafening silence?


I estimate overall its close to 20 lbs per hive over the season (that has so far ended up in an edible form!)  - I also got a pleasant surprise when bringing bees back from the heather, a good super yet to be pressed -  the forage/flow/weather has been very good, even excellent, at my sites and the 20 lb/hive would be much higher if I had done a better job. I set up 8 colonies for production this year. In spring all had to be split for swarm control. In late summer 3 had to be split again and I missed a cell in one (predictable result), 3 swarmed at the heather, all this years Qs. A significant amount of the spring OSR crystallized in the frames and is now being feed back to the bees, a bit of the summer and heather honey is uncapped and is also going back to the bees. 3 of the colonies were set up for sections and that does lower the yield a bit, also Qs going upstairs was a bit of a spoiler. I made the colonies too strong for the summer/heather with my uniting, coupled with good weather then it might have helped if I gave more space. Overall - I am happy with that yield (and the quality of the honey, apart form the bog standard OSR), some good lessons learned but have ended up with more colonies than I really wanted. For those, especially the commercial beekeepers, who can get yields way above mine - respect.

Two weeks after catching them still waiting on 1 of the heather swarm Qs to start laying - if she is there and well mated I want her cause she is from a good line. The colony is behaving well and there is lovely cleaned out patch just waiting for brood. 

Main lesson this year - new Qs can swarm if you put enough pressure on them.

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## Feckless Drone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbKExPgPi8&sns=em

Stay with this to 30 sec in. Reminded me of an afternoon in my apiary.

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## Poly Hive

Another wonderful story..... not. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...esticides.html

PH

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## busybeephilip

quote from dailymail: 
Dave Goulson, Professor of Biology at the University of Sussex, said: ‘Beyond doubt ... anyone regularly eating honey is likely to be getting a small dose of mixed neurotoxin

Bloody hell - I eat at least over a 1 lbs per week for years in tea, cereal, toast and straight off the spoon, my nervous system must be shattered to pieces.  Or maybe its that I am walking proof that we dont have a Neonicotinoid problem in Northern Ireland.  There is very little rape sown here, dont know what other seeds might be coated with neo's - it would be interesting to know.   We could be the only part of the UK that is free of this wonder drug

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## madasafish

> quote from dailymail: 
> Dave Goulson, Professor of Biology at the University of Sussex, said: ‘Beyond doubt ... anyone regularly eating honey is likely to be getting a small dose of mixed neurotoxin
> 
> g


That statement is sweeping and misleading.. If you live in an area where there is no arable farming and associated mass spray to enter the local food chain - spraying/sewing neonics treated seed, then there is no source of neonicotinoids - then the only source surely must be water bourne . And if all your ground water comes from land with the same lack of sewing/spraying, it's going to be pure.

But then he knows that and is just saying it for effect.

(NO arable land here- too hilly and wet clay)

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## mbc

> That statement is sweeping and misleading.. If you live in an area where there is no arable farming and associated mass spray to enter the local food chain - spraying/sewing neonics treated seed, then there is no source of neonicotinoids - then the only source surely must be water bourne . And if all your ground water comes from land with the same lack of sewing/spraying, it's going to be pure.
> 
> But then he knows that and is just saying it for effect.
> 
> (NO arable land here- too hilly and wet clay)


I agree, he's probably right in that detection equipment is so advanced that our many branched hairs electrostatically charged little charges pick up small amounts of absolutely everything in the environment and so no area is safe, especially given the mobile nature of pollen, weather balloons come down with pollen from all over the world attached. It's still a bit of an unhelpful sensationalist comment though.

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## busybeephilip

More ... this was on the BBC site    :Frown:  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41512791

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## wee willy

> That statement is sweeping and misleading.. If you live in an area where there is no arable farming and associated mass spray to enter the local food chain - spraying/sewing neonics treated seed, then there is no source of neonicotinoids - then the only source surely must be water bourne . And if all your ground water comes from land with the same lack of sewing/spraying, it's going to be pure.
> 
> But then he knows that and is just saying it for effect.
> 
> (NO arable land here- too hilly and wet clay)


An extensive study has revealed the evidence of neonic s in honies from remote areas as well as recognised organic areas . 
Quantities are minute and quoted as being harmless to both bees and mankind ! 
Dont shoot the messenger . 


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## busybeephilip

Just a thought but how much of this stuff gets into wax, has anyone looked at that ?

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## Adam

There was a lot of chatter about chemicals in wax 7 - 8 years ago, particularly in the 'States, I recall. There's not been much since but it is possible that residues can build up over time.

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## Jambo

Stupid question time - first year beekeeper, I have managed to get to the ripe old age of 32 without being overly interested in ivy...! I'm not sure what it looks like when it is flowering, I think I have buds nearby which are nearly open but not quite, just north of Aberdeen, does this sound right?

Do we normally get much from ivy this far north? I feel like it might flower when the days are too cold for flying!?

Thanks

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## alancooper

> ivy...! I'm not sure what it looks like when it is flowering, I think I have buds nearby which are nearly open but not quite, just north of Aberdeen, does this sound right? Do we normally get much from ivy this far north? I feel like it might flower when the days are too cold for flying!?


Jambo
The flowering heads are 2-3cm globes of small green flowers (2-3mm). When the flowers open you can see the yellow stamens. Here ivy starts to flower in Sept, continues during Oct and Nov and I have even seen a small number of flowers with pollen in December. My bees take it down massively when it is mild and not too windy and I take a crop towards the end of Oct when clustering starts and temperatures fall. Frames of honey are crystalised and need to be warmed in a metal container heated by a water-bath. When cool the set wax surface is taken off to access the honey.
This year flowering has been slow, with currently only about half the flowers open.
The honey has a strong taste - delicious in porridge. It sets in the jar within 2-3weeks, then gets progressively harder - warming jars during the winter lessens the strength of the taste.
Alan.

----------


## Calluna4u

> Do we normally get much from ivy this far north? I feel like it might flower when the days are too cold for flying!?


In the milder west perhaps you have a chance...see the reply from N. Ireland.....but here in Tayside we have NEVER seen any appreciable nectar from ivy in over 60 years. They do work it keenly on open days, and bring in a bit of dirty yellow pollen, but never seen a flow that would be anything more than a few drops. If you have it in an utter abundance and not many bees around you might have a chance. Gavin has reported significant flows near Dundee and at the same time we had bees about a mile away which were getting zilch.

Its feeding time, not honey time.

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## Poly Hive

Never seen it flower by Aberdeen and to my knowledge never got anything from it. 

Some ivy offering to flower here in the Borders but not a bee looking at it. 

Not sure how far south one has to be to get a flow but its's somewhere between here and Leicestershire. I say that because that is where I have just moved from (after moving from the NE down to there) and  I can say for sure the bees were working it there. 

PH

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## Jambo

Thanks Alan, C4U and PH. 

Alan I think you're the first person I've seen posting anything positive about the taste of ivy honey  :Smile:  

To clarify I wasn't very interested in it from a nectar point of view as I've fed them loads and have no desire for another crop, but they've had little pollen available to them since the end of August really and therefore I assume some ivy pollen would be useful.

I'll keep an eye on it - some decent-ish weather forecast for the rest of this week which might push it on. It is at the stage where the flower heads are expanded but the individual flowers are not open.

----------


## mbc

> Jambo
> The flowering heads are 2-3cm globes of small green flowers (2-3mm). When the flowers open you can see the yellow stamens. Here ivy starts to flower in Sept, continues during Oct and Nov and I have even seen a small number of flowers with pollen in December. My bees take it down massively when it is mild and not too windy and I take a crop towards the end of Oct when clustering starts and temperatures fall. Frames of honey are crystalised and need to be warmed in a metal container heated by a water-bath. When cool the set wax surface is taken off to access the honey.
> This year flowering has been slow, with currently only about half the flowers open.
> The honey has a strong taste - delicious in porridge. It sets in the jar within 2-3weeks, then gets progressively harder - warming jars during the winter lessens the strength of the taste.
> Alan.


Have I got it right that you're warming the frames prior to spinning them out?  Does the ivy honey reliquefy at a low enough temperature that the wax doesn't get damaged?

----------


## busybeephilip

> Have I got it right that you're warming the frames prior to spinning them out?  Does the ivy honey reliquefy at a low enough temperature that the wax doesn't get damaged?


Ivy, if pure, goes rock hard in the comb, the only way i find is to melt the whole comb down in for example a cappings tray.  It is an acquired taste, personally I like it and eat all I get with little side effects (others who know me might think differently  :Smile:   I have heard people say it is the UK's equivalent to Manuka honey with  claims of medical properties, true or not I can not say.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Stupid question time - first year beekeeper, I have managed to get to the ripe old age of 32 without being overly interested in ivy...! I'm not sure what it looks like when it is flowering, I think I have buds nearby which are nearly open but not quite, just north of Aberdeen, does this sound right?
> 
> Do we normally get much from ivy this far north? I feel like it might flower when the days are too cold for flying!?
> 
> Thanks


http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2009...fe%20Cycle.htm

A lot of ivy we see clambering over things will not be mature enough to flower so there might not be enough to get a crop of any kind 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening...save-bees.html
http://highburywildlifegarden.org.uk...s/english-ivy/
900.jpg

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## Bridget

> http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2009...fe%20Cycle.htm
> 
> A lot of ivy we see clambering over things will not be mature enough to flower so there might not be enough to get a crop of any kind 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening...save-bees.html
> http://highburywildlifegarden.org.uk...s/english-ivy/
> Attachment 2864


No ivy here but bees still bringing in bright deep orange here.  No idea where its coming from.  BTW is it true or myth that bees bringing in pollen means there is brood in the hive? We have one thats looking as though its lost its queen but some weeks ago we saw what we thought was a mating flight. (Should have made a note of the date but werent really sure what we were seeing).  Just two bees in flight one on top of the other but they were too quick to check if one was a Queen.  They passed us three times.   


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## alancooper

> Have I got it right that you're warming the frames prior to spinning them out?  Does the ivy honey reliquefy at a low enough temperature that the wax doesn't get damaged?


Mostly the honey has set before extracting - you need to cut it out of the frames.

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## Greengage

Ivy flowers.jpg

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## Poly Hive

We have a very over grown plot for sale next to us and it is full of ivy, in fact it is busy killing some seriously big trees which is a concern. However it is barely flowering and I am not seeing bees on it. Not that much of a disappointment as the hives are still working HB. I am actually after lunch taking off the last super. The hives are lead weights too so my fondant purchase may be un needed but that is fine as it will happily keep. 

PH

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## mbc

So no one successfully reliquefy's set ivy to spin out the honey and save the comb, shame as there is a ready market for ivy honey in bulk these days. 
Thanks for the replies.

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## Poly Hive

I will stick my neck out here and say it is not very common to have ivy honey is Scotland. Only report I have ever heard of was from Dundee or near there who claimed to see bees working on it. Over my 20 or so years of bees in Scotland I can honestly say I have not even seen ivy in flower properly here. In East Mids yes and very busy it was with bees too but not up here. 

Wrong forum for the question?

PH

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## Mellifera Crofter

Ive not seen ivy honey either, but last autumn I was called out about a swarm, and it was only a huge amount of very happy bees foraging on the peoples ivy hedge, up here in Aberdeenshire.  The owner then said hell cut down the hedge because he has grandchildren visiting.  I dont know whether I succeeded in dissuading him from doing so.

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## Jambo

> The owner then said hell cut down the hedge because he has grandchildren visiting.  I dont know whether I succeeded in dissuading him from doing so.


 :Frown:  I hope so!

Still not flowering here...!

Bees enjoying the beautiful weather here this afternoon and quite a bit of pollen of various colours coming in. Took the opportunity to get the feeders off and mouse guards on.

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## alancooper

> We have a very over grown plot for sale next to us and it is full of ivy, in fact it is busy killing some seriously big trees which is a concern. However it is barely flowering and I am not seeing bees on it. Not that much of a disappointment as the hives are still working HB. I am actually after lunch taking off the last super. The hives are lead weights too so my fondant purchase may be un needed but that is fine as it will happily keep. 
> 
> PH


The reason we get a lot of ivy in Fermanagh is that there are a large number of tall hedges with trees. Ivy has a "reputation" for killing trees but it does not. As trees become over-mature they can be blown down in strong winds. Old trees happen to support much ivy, but the main cause of wind-throw is old age, particularly if the trees have a hollow trunk. Countryside with few hedges or hedges cut regularly will not give ivy honey because firstly, there is little ivy and secondly, there is little opportunity for it to flower in a low hedge.

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## gavin

> Gavin has reported significant flows near Dundee and at the same time we had bees about a mile away which were getting zilch.


I've seen patches in frames in years with settled warm days in October - and I think that it is a major pollen source for that last burst of brood rearing - but have never had enough worth harvesting.  Ted Hooper writes that it gives honey crops in the far south-west (of England) and presumably global warming in the intervening decades is responsible for that extending over larger areas now.

There are two species of ivy, Hedera helix and Hedera hibernica.  The latter tends to be on south-facing rock faces with the former mainly on tree trunks and generally cooler situations.  It is in the warm spots where you will see honey bees on the better days along with a range of other pollinators. Take a sprig indoors (in some water and on a sunny windowsill) and you will see the copious secretion from both types but more of it from the second, lusher species.

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## greengumbo

I noticed the bees coming back with some ivy pollen last week and pinpointed the source to a plant about a mile away absolutely heaving with bees. 

Its earlier flowering than any others I see locally and looks quite different. I wonder how easy it is to propagate from cuttings  / roots ?

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ... Its earlier flowering than any others I see locally and looks quite different. I wonder how easy it is to propagate from cuttings  / roots ?


Ive read somewhere it takes about twenty years before an ivy plant will flower.  I dont know whether that is true, or whether a cutting may flower sooner - but still worth trying, I think.

Kitta

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## greengumbo

20 years ! wow ! 

I guess it can go next to the mulberry then  :Smile:  They should flower about the same time.

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## steve

It will take fifteen years and it only flowers when in the arboreal stage. I have a Persian Ivy that began flowering a few years ago and that was from a rooted cutting, it's a long wait. Mine flowers later than the native variety and still has buds as well as open flowers.

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## RDMW

Queenless in October!   Hello I did an end of season inspection today (14 degrees in bright sun) one of my hives is on double brood and has lots of beams and stores but no brood or eggs at all. The bees are quiet and easy to handle. There is no pollen. This hive had a 2017 Queen do bag well 6 weeks ago. Poor weather and work have prevented me looking in since. So either there is a non laying queen or they are queenless. What to do?  I dont really want to unite as I have two other colonies both on double brood so would end up with huge hives. I dont have easy access to a new queen and am keen to maintain local stock rather than buy in a queen from far away. 
Do I have any other option than to see how they overwinter and assess in the spring?   Any advice welcome


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## Poly Hive

Can you offer a test frame? If it is negative saying there is a queen present then a feed of syrup my bribe her to get going. You have said you have had poor weather so I would wonder about a brood stop myself. 

PH

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## fatshark

Are you sure they're queenless? I looked through a few boxes recently that had vanishingly low levels of brood, or in one case none whatsoever, but they were all definitely queenright. These were in Aberdeen, not balmy Fife  :Wink: 

Which is no guarantee they'll make it through the winter of course ...

We took drastic action, culled the non-functioning Q and united the box with another. However, these weren't particularly 'valuable' bees. 

Wasn't there recent discussion about a test frame this late in the season? Here or the BKF? I've never tried. There's zero chance of them rearing one and getting her mated, but I suppose that doesn't mean they wouldn't try.

You do have time to split the double box, unite each half - over a QE! - with existing hives and then use a clearer board to compress them down into just a double box. If I was confident on my abilities to find the Q and hadn't then that's what I would do.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> Are you sure they're queenless? I looked through a few boxes recently that had vanishingly low levels of brood, or in one case none whatsoever, but they were all definitely queenright. These were in Aberdeen, not balmy Fife


Same here.  Quite a few of my colonies' queens stopped laying when I looked a while back now.  But a few days ago, I had to move a nucleus colony to a better hive and didn't see any brood - but I did see the queen, and left well alone.  Even if I  hadn't seen her, I'd have left them as they were.




> Wasn't there recent discussion about a test frame this late in the season? Here or the BKF? I've never tried.


It was here, Fatshark.  I asked the question because I was trying to help two people with possible queenless colonies.  In both instances they did not make use of the test frames to draw out any queencells,  but on a second or third visit to one of the colonies, I saw the queen.  For the other one - we'll have to see what happens in spring.  Also, a few days after asking the question, one of my colonies tried to supersede a queen.  I stopped them, and she's still laying fine.

So, RDMW, you could try a test frame as Fatshark suggested, but I'll probably just leave them, but perhaps give them some pollen patties as you've said you didn't see any (and syrup or fondant).

Kitta

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## fatshark

In fairness Kitta it was Polyhive who suggested a test frame. I wouldn't do that at this time of year as I'd want my strong(er) colonies to remain that way, and I'd prefer not even to go rummaging through them unless I had to.

Of course, PH and RDMW wouldn't "rummage". But I would.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Oh, yes - PH.  I should pay better attention!


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## Poly Hive

In all honesty I would be very reluctant to go through bees at this time of year. Intellectually I know it can be done safely but instinctively I feel this is their time of year and I don't want to disturb them. 
As for being Q- well not having been in for some 6 weeks now if not more then I don't know, and if they are they are and if not then great.
Where people are getting the idea that it is ok to be going through them like a swarm inspection I just don't know. I actually read the other day this question. "When is it safe to stop swarm inspections?" They were still hunting swarm cells in mid October in the UK. 

There is so much information out there and so much of it is unfit for us. I put up a slide on Tuesday night warning the class off from Youtube et all.  

PH

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## Feckless Drone

I would prefer not go rummaging myself either. I assume the Q was not marked. Are there any drones present in the colony? If yes then maybe there is a problem but brood rearing really tailed off sharpish for my colonies in August so I would not be surprised if the Q is just taking a break.

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## Jon

If the colony was calm it almost certainly has a queen in it. Whether it is a virgin or a non laying queen is a matter of waiting until Spring.
Mid October it is not unusual at all to have a broodless colony especially if the weather has been bad for a few weeks.

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## Bridget

> Where people are getting the idea that it is ok to be going through them like a swarm inspection I just don't know. I actually read the other day this question. "When is it safe to stop swarm inspections?" They were still hunting swarm cells in mid October.
> 
> PH


As a beginner you are taught to inspect every week.  You get your bees in summer and you inspect every week.  And theres no trainer to tell you when to stop bothering the bees.  I was lucky to find this forum right at the beginning of my beekeeping and soon picked up it was not ok to be going through your bees weekly in September.  However it was only later I found out about winter brood etc. 



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## wee willy

> In all honesty I would be very reluctant to go through bees at this time of year. Intellectually I know it can be done safely but instinctively I feel this is their time of year and I don't want to disturb them. 
> As for being Q- well not having been in for some 6 weeks now if not more then I don't know, and if they are they are and if not then great.
> Where people are getting the idea that it is ok to be going through them like a swarm inspection I just don't know. I actually read the other day this question. "When is it safe to stop swarm inspections?" They were still hunting swarm cells in mid October in the UK. 
> 
> There is so much information out there and so much of it is unfit for us. I put up a slide on Tuesday night warning the class off from Youtube et all.  
> 
> PH


A swarm in October ? 
Not if you are Sober !


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## fatshark

A colony definitely broodless in October is a good candidate for OA* trickling ... there will still be mites left over from the late summer treatment and, if they're all phoretic, they're easy to get. By January, many colonies have started rearing brood again. 

You could do some calculations, but I bet that 95% knockdown of *all* mites now would be preferable - in terms of mite numbers by late Spring - to 95% of the phoretic population once the colony has brood in early January. 

I treated with OA last year in late November after a protracted cold period. I didn't check for brood but someone - FD perhaps? - commented that their colonies were broodless when checked about the same time. My _Varroa_ levels this year have been really low.

* I mean Api-Bioxal of course  :Wink:

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## greengumbo

> A colony definitely broodless in October is a good candidate for OA* trickling ... there will still be mites left over from the late summer treatment and, if they're all phoretic, they're easy to get. By January, many colonies have started rearing brood again. 
> 
> You could do some calculations, but I bet that 95% knockdown of *all* mites now would be preferable - in terms of mite numbers by late Spring - to 95% of the phoretic population once the colony has brood in early January. 
> 
> I treated with OA last year in late November after a protracted cold period. I didn't check for brood but someone - FD perhaps? - commented that their colonies were broodless when checked about the same time. My _Varroa_ levels this year have been really low.
> 
> * I mean Api-Bioxal of course


Totally agree with this FS. Treating a broodless colony now to mop up phoretic (and in my experience "less fit end of year Varroa") would probably be far better than waiting until January.

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## Poly Hive

In theory I completely agree but..........I am not pulling frames at the moment to see and the reason why not is simple. It is still quite warm and the bees I am quite sure in my mind have brood as I seeing a constant stream of pollen going in. So over the last ten years I hyave been using OA trickle in January. In late April and May I have been checking drone brood which as we all know is 8 times more attractive to the mites so that is where they should be in droves. Not found a one yet. I pick open fifty or more cells and put the frame back feeling quite happy with the situation. Now as long as that test works for me and the bees look healthy which they do, and produce honey which they do,  then I am happy. 

Going back to poking around in October are people not going on courses to learn these things or reading books now? Or is it all oh I'll find out what I need from the pool of misinformation that the web is?

PH

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## fatshark

I wasn't commenting on whether we *should* be rummaging around in colonies at this time, just that if they were broodless (which you'd discovered because there were doubts about the queen or whatever) then I'd treat. I've got several colonies I've not looked in since the first week of August.

GG and I had cause to go through some colonies with vanishingly (desperately?) low levels of brood a few days ago which, under other circumstances, were ideal for treatment.

Here's another thought, and possibly one for GG ...

A broodless colony in midwinter has the highest (100%) proportion of phoretic mites. If the colony starts rearing brood, do they get heavily infested with mites? In relative terms there are lots of mites in the colony per late stage larva. Or are the mites "not very fit"?

If they do get heavily infested, it has potentially dire consequences for the very early season build-up of the colony ...

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## greengumbo

> I wasn't commenting on whether we *should* be rummaging around in colonies at this time, just that if they were broodless (which you'd discovered because there were doubts about the queen or whatever) then I'd treat. I've got several colonies I've not looked in since the first week of August.
> 
> GG and I had cause to go through some colonies with vanishingly (desperately?) low levels of brood a few days ago which, under other circumstances, were ideal for treatment.
> 
> Here's another thought, and possibly one for GG ...
> 
> A broodless colony in midwinter has the highest (100%) proportion of phoretic mites. If the colony starts rearing brood, do they get heavily infested with mites? In relative terms there are lots of mites in the colony per late stage larva. Or are the mites "not very fit"?
> 
> If they do get heavily infested, it has potentially dire consequences for the very early season build-up of the colony ...


Oh fun. 

I would wager that even in a non-treated colony a fair proportion of phoretic mites don't survive very long in winter anyway and those that do might not be in optimum reproductive state, at least come first brood rearing. In fact I wonder if in general these survivors use the early brood as, in effect, a hide out and to regain fitness - rather than to kick start full-on reproduction ? They would still be transmitting DWV but maybe not at the same rate ?

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## fatshark

Thanks GG
Someone needs to sort these types of Q's out  :Wink: 

So here's another one ... is it the mites that are different, or is midwinter brood (or late season, or whatever) for some reason less suited for the mite reproduction? I can't imagine the convoluted experiment that would need to be done to sort this out ... perhaps a business-class flight to the Southern Hemisphere with a pocketful of summer mites?

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## The Drone Ranger

> Oh fun. 
> 
> I would wager that even in a non-treated colony a fair proportion of phoretic mites don't survive very long in winter anyway and those that do might not be in optimum reproductive state, at least come first brood rearing. In fact I wonder if in general these survivors use the early brood as, in effect, a hide out and to regain fitness - rather than to kick start full-on reproduction ? They would still be transmitting DWV but maybe not at the same rate ?


I think thats fake news GG
as the Donald might say

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## fatshark

I'm not so sure DR.

Colonies with high mite levels can stagger through to the next season. If untreated the ratio of mites to pupa must increase hugely in winter simply on account of the low level of brood. Why isn't every new bee wrecked?

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## greengumbo

> I think thats fake news GG
> as the Donald might say
> 
> Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk


Possibly DR. One thing I definitely have in common with Trump is the need for a wig.

Mites are not machines though. A couple of months of living phoretically with no / low feed will take its toll. Many of the mite population at this stage will also be old grannies and could have undergone multiple reproductive cycles during the summer previous, which is no mean feat. I just can't see how they can be in tip top condition at the start of brood rearing. Could be totally wrong though  :Smile:

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## The Drone Ranger

> Possibly DR. One thing I definitely have in common with Trump is the need for a wig.
> 
> Mites are not machines though. A couple of months of living phoretically with no / low feed will take its toll. Many of the mite population at this stage will also be old grannies and could have undergone multiple reproductive cycles during the summer previous, which is no mean feat. I just can't see how they can be in tip top condition at the start of brood rearing. Could be totally wrong though


Lol!

This is what beebase say
"The life expectancy of Varroa mites depends on the
presence of brood and will vary from 27 days to
about 5 months. During the summer Varroa mites
live for about 2-3 months during which time,
providing brood is available, they can complete 3-4
breeding cycles. In winter, when brood rearing is
restricted, mites over-winter solely on the bodies
of the adult bees within the cluster, until brood
rearing commences the following spring."

Various sources might disagree I don't know for sure but I bet the people recommending a layer of leaves and moss in the bottom of the hive or hives made of cowpats will be at the forefront  :Smile: 

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## greengumbo

> Lol!
> 
> This is what beebase say
> "The life expectancy of Varroa mites depends on the
> presence of brood and will vary from 27 days to
> about 5 months. During the summer Varroa mites
> live for about 2-3 months during which time,
> providing brood is available, they can complete 3-4
> breeding cycles. In winter, when brood rearing is
> ...



Are we not in agreement here ? Maybe "the summer previous" is a bit misleading from myself. I mean - during reproductive months. So a mite could have reproduced in the last bit of brood in September / October / November and then be in poor winter condition to survive phoretically.

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## fatshark

GG ... I've found just the thing for you.

618joyLMIjL._UY445_.jpg

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## The Drone Ranger

> GG ... I've found just the thing for you.
> 
> 618joyLMIjL._UY445_.jpg


Ha ha

worse than him for delusional thinking though is the Lithuanian Prime Minister who said Britain needs to agree how much to pay the EU before trade talks begin 


In 2015 the taxpayers of Lithuania received from the European Union  148 euros per head over what they contributed. Since its accession to the EU the country has received from the European Union EUR 11191 million over what it has contributed



Lithuania has been a member of the European Union since May 2004

Lithuania GDP is 12,613 million Euro It has received 11191 million over and above what it has contributed to the EU
Thats only up to to 2015

So I say shut up Lithuania your getting greedy

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## The Drone Ranger

You could say the same applies to the bees though GG

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## Jambo

Turned into a decent ish day here so the bees are out and about. Surprised to see a handful of drones emerging from my wee hive. Shouldn't they have been done away with by now?

Colony is a split I made up during the summer, queen from a swarm cell mated here... 

I don't intend to investigate until spring but could this be early signs of becoming a drone layer?

Thanks.

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## Mellifera Crofter

The Year of the Wasp is not over yet.  They're not a problem any more, but there are still a few flying about hoping to gain access to a hive.
Kitta

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## Feckless Drone

Creative use of bees - 

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/arti...ce-in-kakamega

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## greengumbo

> The Year of the Wasp is not over yet.  They're not a problem any more, but there are still a few flying about hoping to gain access to a hive.
> Kitta


Last few days have seen an upturn in wasp activity around some of my hives. Looked like something had pulled the entrance blocks away from two and the wasps were having easier access. I suspect rats.

Bulk order of mouseguards just arrived so on they go.

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## prakel

> Last few days have seen an upturn in wasp activity


Considering the incredibly mild weather down here (we even missed 'Brian') I'm a little concerned that there are no wasps to talk of, even in August/Sept they were in short supply.

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## wee willy

> Last few days have seen an upturn in wasp activity around some of my hives. Looked like something had pulled the entrance blocks away from two and the wasps were having easier access. I suspect rats.
> 
> Bulk order of mouseguards just arrived so on they go.


I dont use mouse guards . 
My under floor entrance open mesh floors require a mouse to wriggle up a 10 mil slot 3 deep. The whole width of the hive is left open . 
Ive never had a problem since using them !


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## Greengage

Lots of wasps still around in Ireland especially in the east.

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## Jambo

Done a fair bit of driving this weekend - ivy in full flower down in Galloway, just starting here in Aberdeenshire. With highs of 10 degC forecast this week I wonder if it's too late to be of any use to the bees!

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## Feckless Drone

Bees bringing in pollen yesterday in the lovely sunshine here on Tayside. 100% sure its from ivy; saw the foraging. Some more yellow pollen noted as well. Mahonia maybe?
But - couple of frosts might change things. Wasps seem to have disappeared now.

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## greengumbo

> Bees bringing in pollen yesterday in the lovely sunshine here on Tayside. 100% sure its from ivy; saw the foraging. Some more yellow pollen noted as well. Mahonia maybe?
> But - couple of frosts might change things. Wasps seem to have disappeared now.


Some bright yellow pollen coming in last week up here as well that didn't think was Ivy. Some flowering brassicas (turnips?) in a field nearby but maybe it could be mahonia.

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## gavin

> Some bright yellow pollen coming in last week up here as well that didn't think was Ivy. Some flowering brassicas (turnips?) in a field nearby but maybe it could be mahonia.


Might be worth a trip north to see those Aberdeenshire fields of Mahonia  :Wink: .  Who am I to talk with some clumsy wording in yesterday's SNHBS circular! 

I seem to have inadvertently set up a wasp monitoring station here overlooking the Tay to the west of Dundee.  Three ways:

- a stack of extracted supers out the back
- the Asian hornet trap as requested by the nice lady at the Scottish Government
- a pile of supers in my front room with as yet unextracted heather honey plus an open window (a necessary health precaution given my sensitivity to certain particles) 

The bee equipment was a major wasp magnet through September but went quieter when the local ivy came into flower (and, no doubt, the available scraps of sticky stuff has been used up).  And when the Asian hornet trap was set up.  :Smile: 

The Asian hornet trap has sooked in zillions of wasps but that has slowed now to a trickle.  No Vespa velutina in case anyone is wondering. 

The front room still has a few wasps commuting to the stack of supers today.  Maybe two.  They know their way in and out quite well.  There has been a certain attrition as, when they deviate from the usual route to and from the window and start to harass me instead at the desk that tends to trigger a bout of vespicide. 

With the vehicles outside white this morning I did wonder whether the wasp season had now finished.  Not so, it seems, but we're nearly there.  

I wonder if the red admirals in the orchard are still alive?  Early in October I estimated 2,000 of them but at every visit there seems to be fewer and fewer.  They've probably been migrating south since then but they did seem to be leaving it late.

----------


## Feckless Drone

Wasps seem to have disappeared now - and moved to Gavin's place.

Circular? SNHBS?

Should be a good talk at ESBA Dundee tonight. Graham Sharpe on his experiences and protocols. 7:30 in the Methodist Church Hall, Nethergate.

----------


## gavin

Yes, Graeme is a great speaker.  See you there.

The SNHBS workshop is for members (easy to become one ... ) and is at the Aberdeen Uni Zoology Department on 18th Nov.  Free for members.  Come and meet the crew.  See a prominent Varroa and honey bee researcher in the flesh, and some PhD students. Oh, and a genome sequencing expert from the Roslin Institute.  Blether to beekeepers.  Play with microscopes.  Learn!

www.snhbs.scot/events-2

G.

----------


## Feckless Drone

Two points from last nights talk to ESBA by Graeme Sharpe on beekeeping practices that work for him that I noted. 1. no winter oxalic acid treatment as his use of Apivar in autumn is sufficient to control varroa. 2. use of inverted syrup as a spring (very early spring) stimulative feed to give an early build up for OSR crop.

I've not feed in late winter/early spring unless stores were very low and then I've given fondant and used OSR really to help the build up. I get a crop but admittedly could be much larger if colonies were a bit more advanced. Although I doubt I will get close to Graeme's honey yields. Difference in climate between central belt - west and northish east coast come into play - we often get chilled periods well into april/may. I don't think I would stimulate being concerned about getting to swarm control too early with regards getting Qs mated. Anyone else feed to force colonies on in Feb-March?

----------


## madasafish

> Two points from last nights talk to ESBA by Graeme Sharpe on beekeeping practices that work for him that I noted. 1. no winter oxalic acid treatment as his use of Apivar in autumn is sufficient to control varroa. 2. use of inverted syrup as a spring (very early spring) stimulative feed to give an early build up for OSR crop.
> 
> I've not feed in late winter/early spring unless stores were very low and then I've given fondant and used OSR really to help the build up. I get a crop but admittedly could be much larger if colonies were a bit more advanced. Although I doubt I will get close to Graeme's honey yields. Difference in climate between central belt - west and northish east coast come into play - we often get chilled periods well into april/may. I don't think I would stimulate being concerned about getting to swarm control too early with regards getting Qs mated. Anyone else feed to force colonies on in Feb-March?


I did this year. Only really works with strong colonies: as far as honey yield is concerned.

----------


## fatshark

The need for midwinter OA treatment is surely dependent upon 3 things ... the level of infestation before autumn treatment, the timing of autumn treatment and the temperature after autumn treatment.

Apivar gets about ~95% of the mites. If the infestation level is high it suggests more will be left - mathematically speaking - than if levels were low. If treatment is early there will be a longer brood rearing period afterwards and this will be exacerbated if it's a particularly warm autumn with brooding going on late.

I've seen colonies this year with very high mite levels (not my own thankfully) and I certainly wouldn't want to risk the chance of not slaughtering those mites remaining for the sake of a few pence worth of OA (or a few pounds of Api-Bioxal  :Frown:  ).

I've fed colonies thin syrup (not invert) early and pollen ... all (inevitably) very unscientific, but with the intention of bringing on colonies for queen rearing rather than honey production. Graeme made me think it was worth a try as I've largely missed exploiting the OSR since moving here due to slow buildup.

Sorry I missed you last night FD.

PS Graeme said it was only worth doing on strong colonies ...

----------


## Feckless Drone

> PS Graeme said it was only worth doing on strong colonies ...


yes, that's right - he was selective, based on strength of the colony, about what is built up early for the OSR.

I'm a confirmed OA dribbler and since I did not do any summer or spring treatments for varroa this year I intend to lift the lids at the end of Dec. My apivar strips were removed at the weekend after 8 weeks and with loads of pollen going in to all but 1 poorly behaved hive I am hopeful that I've culled the mites in timely fashion for healthy winter bees.  

I missed a trick this year - should have treated swarms for varroa as soon as I got them so should stock up on a thymol based treatment. Tempted to make and try out Randy Oliver's oxalic acid towels.

Is it me or does spring seem a long way off? Been cleaning equipment and wax and feeling morose without being out and about the bees.

----------


## Jon

> I missed a trick this year - should have treated swarms for varroa as soon as I got them so should stock up on a thymol based treatment. Tempted to make and try out Randy Oliver's oxalic acid towels.


Oxalic trickle would do that job as well as any thymol based product. I carry a bottle around with me in the summer and if I pick up a swarm or come across a broodless colony I treat it. I also use it to treat any nucs I make up with a few frames of bees and brood and a ripe queen cell. If you get the timing right you can treat a broodless nuc 2-3 weeks after making it up.

----------


## Feckless Drone

I like the idea of treating the newly caught swarms and mating nucs which are brood less - but worry about potential disruption to the new Q if she has to get mated etc.

----------


## fatshark

I've not trickled swarms/casts with unmated Q's but have - several times - vaporised OA where either the Q is either unmated, or possibly just mated but not yet laying. 

No apparent ill-effects and in all cases the Q's have gone on to either get mated or start laying.

Interestingly - at least it is to me, but I do need to get out more - swarms have a higher proportion of mites than phoretic bees in a colony. It's *definitely* worth treating them.

I've never treated mating nucs.

----------


## Jon

I treat the nucs in the first week after the queen has started to lay before any brood has been sealed.

----------


## mbc

The future is already here in a more persistent application of oxalic by mixing with glycerin and soaking in cellulose(cardboard) strips, it works!
https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sh...ad.php?t=38743

----------


## busybeephilip

> The future is already here in a more persistent application of oxalic by mixing with glycerin and soaking in cellulose(cardboard) strips, it works!
> https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sh...ad.php?t=38743



I thought I'd have a bash at this.  It does seem to work although it is NOT an instant or rapid cure.  One hive i had at the start of spring 2017 was very week covering only about 2x cricket size ball of bees and dropping loads of mites.  Nothing to loose so had a bash at the towel thing, at first not much seemed to happen but the mite drop was steady, after about 4 weeks the small (~2- 3 inch diameter) brood size increased, a month later the (small) population began to rise with mites still dropping.  By mid may it was covering ~3 frames with low mite drop.  By late july a super was added and got about 10 lbs honey and hardly any mite drop.   On seeing some success, more hives were treated with same at mid august and I am now very pleased with the results obtained.  I have continuously monitored varroa floors and levels are acceptable.    I definitely feel this method does work and could be applied as a "continuous" treatment given that there is no contamination of harvested honey

----------


## mbc

Seeing as oxalic levels in honey from colonies repeatedly treated with ox trickle (where there is a likelihood of some ingestion ) aren't elevated then I can't see an issue with the ox/gly which they're simply discarding out of the way.

----------


## Poly Hive

Is there not an issue here with the legality of "home made" oxalic treatments?

PH

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## fatshark

mbc ... where's the data for that? The only work I'm aware of (New Zealand?) measured OA levels in honey the spring following a winter trickle. 
I'd love to see the evidence of what everyone wants to see.

----------


## mbc

> mbc ... where's the data for that? The only work I'm aware of (New Zealand?) measured OA levels in honey the spring following a winter trickle. 
> I'd love to see the evidence of what everyone wants to see.


Not sure about the original data but I read it on Randy Oliver 's website,,,,,so it must be true.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxal...towel-updates/

----------


## mbc

> Is there not an issue here with the legality of "home made" oxalic treatments?
> 
> PH


No one's claiming it's entirely legal,  neither was trickle for a good decade while some forward thinking beekeepers were using it.
In fact, aren't most still outside the law unless they're paying over the odds for an inferior product in apibioxal?

----------


## Poly Hive

So everyone is lying on their records?

PH

----------


## mbc

> So everyone is lying on their records?
> 
> PH


I couldn't possibly comment.

----------


## madasafish

> So everyone is lying on their records?
> 
> PH


Mislaid.

----------


## Poly Hive

Dangerous. Ask Murray.

PH

----------


## fatshark

> Not sure about the original data but I read it on Randy Oliver 's website,,,,,so it must be true.
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxal...towel-updates/


I wouldn't be confident about that unless I'd seen the primary data  :Wink:  OA testing in honey isn't straightforward due to a) the methods used (there's an enzymatic kit and Mass Spec methods) and b) the natural variation in OA content of honey (which is published). The article by Randy uses the word "substantially" which definitely needs qualifying.

Encouraging that he's applying for EPA approval ... they'd presumably ask for precisely this sort of information. It's about time it was properly measured to stop some of the vapaholics assuring that it was perfectly OK to treat when the supers are on (or prove that it is).

----------


## steve

We really could do with an 'official' line on treatments and their safety. Over the last couple of years, I've changed my IPM approach to include OAV but I carry this out when supers are off. 
The Oxalic/Glycerine strips are an interesting concept as a 'slow release' in situ supplemental treatment and from what I've seen, the results are pretty conclusive that it definitely keeps the mite numbers down. Would be nice to get a thumbs up for this method, I'd tweak my IPM again.

----------


## The Drone Ranger

There's no need for amateur homebrewed oxalic treatments and in the long run they will probably do more harm than good
Long exposure at low levels is the reason that Apistan resistance developed
In general long exposure at a lower level is the least sensible approach to treating any pest be it rats or varroa
Just treat once in the Winter (or twice if you must) with oxalic acid its scientifically proven and well researched

If you need a summer treatment there are plenty available

Regards thymol treatment forget making your own brew if you have 10 or less hives just buy the legally approved api-life var or apiguard 
You won't save that much money trying your own recipe and there is a possibility of harming the colony and also prosecution

Sorry to seem like a Grinch but I have an issue with people advocating 5 oxalic treatments in short order during Summer etc while that might kill varroa but its not necessary when just puting on apilife-var is perfectly adequate, just as effective, takes a tenth of the effort, is legal, approved and scientifically researched

What's wrong with beekeepers that they can't just accept the tools they have at their disposal you don't read gardening forums and find people concocting their own fungicides and chemical treatments.

If there are amateur researchers out there who want to experiment, try coming up with a chalkbrood remedy and leave varroa treatment alone that problem is already solved 

Moan... Moan....moan.. .........

----------


## Feckless Drone

> Moan... Moan....moan.. .........


Its the idle hands and devil syndrome. We are not doing beekeeping so need something to distract us. Now! a fungicide you say?

----------


## steve

Each to their own.

----------


## mbc

> There's no need for amateur homebrewed oxalic treatments and in the long run they will probably do more harm than good
> Long exposure at low levels is the reason that Apistan resistance developed
> In general long exposure at a lower level is the least sensible approach to treating any pest be it rats or varroa
> Just treat once in the Winter (or twice if you must) with oxalic acid its scientifically proven and well researched
> 
> If you need a summer treatment there are plenty available
> 
> Regards thymol treatment forget making your own brew if you have 10 or less hives just buy the legally approved api-life var or apiguard 
> You won't save that much money trying your own recipe and there is a possibility of harming the colony and also prosecution
> ...


Meekly sitting back and waiting for the authorities to provide solutions has always worked in the past,,,,,,,,oh wait! no, that's wrong, innovation in beekeeping is almost always driven by beekeepers and the authorities lag behind and only move to change anything if they'd get egg on their face from continuing with the status quo of doing nothing.

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## The Drone Ranger

> Meekly sitting back and waiting for the authorities to provide solutions has always worked in the past,,,,,,,,oh wait! no, that's wrong, innovation in beekeeping is almost always driven by beekeepers and the authorities lag behind and only move to change anything if they'd get egg on their face from continuing with the status quo of doing nothing.


Fair enough mbc but why not devote all that energy to a problem that actually needs solving, not one which already has more than enough solutions

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## Pete L

.....



> According to European honey standards, honey may have up to 50 milliequivalents of free acids. If higher residues of oxalic or other acids are produced, this limit is soon exceeded, and the beekeeper risks having problems if his honey is checked by authorities. If oxalic acid is used properly, there is absolutely no risk of problems with the honey.


Determining the maximum residue level (MRL) for oxalic acid in honey

Anton Imdorf1 and Eva Rademacher2 European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control 1 Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux, SwissBee Research Center, CH-3003 Bern 2 Freie Universität Berlin, Institut für Biologie/Neurobiologie, Königin-Luise-Strasse 28-30, DE-14159 Berlin

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## fatshark

Not sure if that's the article I'm aware of or not ... it's a summary of what was done and the conclusions, but contains no details of the OA levels or residuals.

Most of the studies I've seen - for example this one http://www.refdoc.fr/Detailnotice?cpsidt=14942975 - apply the OA one year and test for it the next. 

_The application of oxalic acid based solutions (Bienenwohl or a self-prepared oxalic acid solution with sugar) to control Varroa destructor resulted in no relevant changes in the oxalic acid content of honey produced the following year, compared with honey samples from untreated colonies from the same location. The range of oxalic acid content in honey was 5-68 mg/kg in oxalic acid treated and 5-65 mg/kg in untreated colonies._

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## Adam

From the document that Pete highlighted:- _"Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finnland, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands and Sweden joined together to finance the project, some of them with amounts quite above their proportional share of the total. Special thanks go to the French Beekeepers, who covered about 45% of the budget with money from the European Union’s Beekeeper Fund. In Italy apart from the beekeeper associations U.N.A. API also two bee science institutions made financial contributions to help the project. Although not a member of the European Union, Norway, on its own initiative, contributed a considerable amount.
Unfortunately, several countries never responded to our repeated requests for financial participation (Great Britain, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Spain)"_.
I guess that the BBKA was not well-funded at the time but you would have thought that either the BBKA, SBKA, FERA or the BFA would have helped a little bit?

I am sure that I have seen a study somewhere which indicates that the residues of OA in the hive are small quite soon after application?

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## Thymallus

Is this the paper you are thinking of?
Spring treatment with oxalic acid in honeybee colonies as varroa control (1999)
No major differences in OA levels in honey (statistically) before or after treating, but treatment was spray or trickle, not vaping.

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## lindsay s

Hi all Im back on the forum after quite a few months absence.  Yesterday was a good day to check on the bees and give them some candy. The photos were taken about 2:30pm it was sunny, no wind and 6⁰c. As you can see some of my hives were quite active and that was before I disturbed them.
The ground at the apiary was absolutely soaking and the undersides of the hive roofs varied between damp and wet, thats why I have an empty super between the crown board and the roof of all hives. The bees never seal most of the mesh on the crown boards (even my finer mesh) so they obviously like to vent their hives. 
Weight wise all the hives seemed OK but the candy is there if they want it and I dont worry about it being above the crown board as the bees never have any bother using it. 10 out of 10 active at the moment but its very early days yet and I usually have to unite colonies in the spring.

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## gavin

Looking good.  And you've got _trees_ in your apiary!  Well, big bushes at least.

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## lindsay s

The trees are getting bigger every year and they are starting to shade the apiary,I cant cut them back because its not my land. They do provide shelter from the southwest wind though. A new hospital is being built about 800 metres over the fence and it could be a great place for the swarms to settle this summer!!!

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## Feckless Drone

ESBA last night was a very enjoyable talk from a "stand in" Murray Macgregor - well, it started as a talk; he introduced himself and then he led a Q&A session which was perfect. Great to have him there and to get his opinions, strategies and experience. Great turn out as well.
Many lessons/tips passed on - interesting really that he uses the spring flow to build up and targets start of July for main strength and the heather crops. He mentioned that bell honey is not always the port wine color but that he's seen it much lighter -
I got a small crop in late summer that was from the moors and it tasted like bell (best honey I've had) but was much lighter in color - as Murray said - would never win as a show entry.

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## Adam

Some unmentionables had dumped loads of black bags in front of my hives at an out-apiary and I thought that they need to be moved away for safekeeping in case the flytippers came back to collect the hives. I lifted up one nuc and thought to myself 'this is so light they will be dead'. However the bees were alive and well just under the crownboard and now have some fondant on. I left two double brood hives as I couldn't manage them by myself. A job for later, once my back has recovered as it went twang lifting one of the hives down to the ground at the new apiary site.  :Frown:

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## gavin

Things that go twang can be a nightmare for beekeepers (fly-tipping *never* happens in Scotland of course  :Wink:  ).  I'm currently dealing with a leg that went twang weeks ago then repeated it on Friday.  At least cold-season injuries give us time to recover before things get hectic.

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## fatshark

Bees flying strongly yesterday once the sun got onto the hives. It was still cold and they weren't out for long, but it was good to see.

180210-08.jpg

In another apiary I checked today quite a few were light and needed a kilogram or two of fondant. Even in full sun it was only about 4C and they "weren't amused" ... perhaps the best they could be described as would be grudgingly grateful.

Snowdrops out in force but the willow has a bit to go yet.

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## madasafish

> Things that go twang can be a nightmare for beekeepers (fly-tipping *never* happens in Scotland of course  ).  I'm currently dealing with a leg that went twang weeks ago then repeated it on Friday.  At least cold-season injuries give us time to recover before things get hectic.


I used to suffer from sciatica  - first time I cried like a child... I now do yoga exercises for my back 5 days a week- 20 mins/day..And no longer suffer from sciatica. But it has taken a year to achieve that. (Beekeeping for the past three years was often done in considerable pain and painkillers appear to not work well on back issues)

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## mbc

> I used to suffer from sciatica  - first time I cried like a child... I now do yoga exercises for my back 5 days a week- 20 mins/day..And no longer suffer from sciatica. But it has taken a year to achieve that. (Beekeeping for the past three years was often done in considerable pain and painkillers appear to not work well on back issues)


Snap with the sciatica, I slipped a disk a year ago last October and have been doing physio ever since.  I'm looking at a kaptarlift to take some of the strain but cant seem to divert enough funds to invest in one at the moment, bloody children keep eating and growing our of clothes.

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## Thymallus

I can recommend them, they make lifting hives a breeze. My only regret was not affording the electric one, apart from being even more easy to use it has a wider wheel base making it more stable on rough ground. But minor point really.

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## gavin

Two summers ago I had the agony of sciatica, back and hip right down the leg to the foot.  Walking sticks, two-hourly alternating paracetamol and ibuprofen didn't help much, awful it was.  I refuse to take cocodemol after previous experience, the constipation was worse than the pain.  Tears were shed.  It took about 6 months to depart.  The lovely Mhairi recommended the McKenzie book which did help. 

https://www.worldofbooks.com/treat-y...002822168.html 

There are times when I suspect back strain coming on, perhaps bending over doing inspections, and then I do the arch backwards stance, even while inspecting frames.  It may be an odd sight but usually no-one is watching.  Worst times are heavy lifting when I'm out of practice.  A few tips that help me:

- watch your posture when sitting
- watch your posture while driving (tuck the small of your back forwards, use traffic lights/roundabouts as reminders)
- use a padded thing in the small of your back (rolled up old fleece for me when I'm driving)
- all the usual straight-back, bent knee lifts wherever possible
- do that arching back when you feel a strain coming on

I try to minimise apiaries with pallets as hive stands.  Something a bit higher is much kinder on the back.  Usually three pillars each of two concrete blocks, bottom one flat, upper on its side.  Then two 2.4m lengths of 4x2 timber to take three hives.  Treated timber slows any rotting and keeps the slugs off.  You need to ensure they are level and as nothing is stuck together they are easily disassembled and shifted. 

Minimise the number of Demarees, a top brood box full of stores is a killer. 

As I don't have a Kaptarlift (yet!), I put an empty brood box on my sack barrow so that I just swivel to shift hives or boxes off the stand and off the sack barrow into the truck.  Can't afford an army of sturdy East European and Australasian gentlemen and women.

Interesting comments on the Kaptarlift.  I can see I'll have to start saving.

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## mbc

I have most of my hives on pallets and inspect them kneeling which is quite kind on the back, I have knee pads from the builders merchants to stop my knees getting damp or sore.
McKenzie exercises are at the core of the physiotherapy exercises I do with some back strengthening sets thrown in two or three times a week when I remember.  A slipped disk and sciatica ate an absolute bugger and once you've been there you don't want to go back.

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## Adam

> the constipation was worse than the pain.  .
> 
> .


Too much information Gavin!

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## Adam

My 'twang' moment was when I lifted a double brood box from the back of a pick-up and down to the floor. Lifting was OK. Lowering was not. 

I find that pallets rot too easily or bend dangerously when the hive gets heavy in summer, so colonies at my out-apiary are on paving slabs with a house brick under the 4 corners of each hive to lift them off by a few inches. Maybe not quite enough ventillation as I would like, but at least they are off damp ground.
Kneeling works well with the right hive - I recall seeing a beesuit with built-in knee-pads but not sure where.

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## chris

> I recall seeing a beesuit with built-in knee-pads but not sure where.


Mine has them at the knees  :Embarrassment:  though the legs are too long so they act as shin pads.

This is a cheaper d.i.y. model, though the hive boxes need strong 'strip' handles for the supports

http://apiculturegatineau.fr/photo_9.html

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## prakel

I've mentioned before that I 'did' my back several years ago and, as a result, took to beekeeping on my knees wherever the site allows; a useful tip gleaned from Steve Taber's writings. I was probably lucky because my other life long hobby has encouraged me to do a lot of flexibility AND mobility work. 

Another good source of assistance is the Feldenkrais Method if you can find a local teacher.

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## Adam

Went to check some nucs with fondant on before the cold weather fully gets here. The nucs are at the office in Gt Yarmouth and only a short distance from open marshes to the North. Noticed a ventillation hole in the back of one nuc I had sorta forgotten about so gaffa taped it up to stop the draught. It is already bitterly cold outside though with wind coming off the N Sea. Roll on Spring!

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## Bridget

Today Im doing association accounts for the AGM.  Could someone remind me to do Quarterly reconciliations . Oh and get everyone to pay by bank transfer or cheque. Bloomin cash reconciliation doing my head in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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## fatshark

I should imagine a nice bracing walk would clear your head if it all gets a bit too much  :Wink: 

A balmy -3C here in comparison to the temperatures you've got at the moment ... unless you're doing the accounts in Spain  :Wink:

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## madasafish

> Today Im doing association accounts for the AGM.  Could someone remind me to do Quarterly reconciliations . Oh and get everyone to pay by bank transfer or cheque. Bloomin cash reconciliation doing my head in
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Our Association requires members to pay by DD. Those that do not are given 2 weeks to pay by cheque. If they fail to pay, they lose membership and have to pay an extra £5 to rejoin...

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## Bridget

> I should imagine a nice bracing walk would clear your head if it all gets a bit too much 
> 
> A balmy -3C here in comparison to the temperatures you've got at the moment ... unless you're doing the accounts in Spain


Not in Spain but Highlands have relatively good weather at present - a few inches of snow, some sun breaking through, cold but not damp.  Ideal winter conditions and yes I did have a nice walk to clear the head, thanks


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

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## Bridget

> Our Association requires members to pay by DD. Those that do not are given 2 weeks to pay by cheque. If they fail to pay, they lose membership and have to pay an extra £5 to rejoin...


Ooh, harsh! Everyone pays but its usually in dribs and drabs, AGM, first apiary meet etc. Hadnt thought of DD but I will now.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

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## fatshark

As a habitual offender I have to say that DD often saves me the embarrassment of paying my fees in mid-July.

More people skiing than walking in the village today.

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## Adam

Yesterday - son saw snowmen built in the central reservation of a dual carriageway near Norwich as drivers were queued up for so long in the snow they got bored and had a play. That was before the wind came today.

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## greengumbo

No wind today and some nice sunshine. Went for a stroll to look at a few of my hives at lunchtime and all very busy bringing in Crocus and Snowdrop pollen. Great to see after the last week of poor weather.

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## Adam

it was a bright sunny day this Monday so the (10) colonies at the office car park were flying well and did what bees do after being inside for a few days. They have been at work temporarily due to fears of theft at the other apiary site. First thing I heard on Tuesday morning were complaints about the orange spots on everyone's cars! I have now prepared stands for them at a new safe location so they will be moved in the next few days.

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## lindsay s

I know the owners of a furniture shop. I think its a pretty good swap for one jar of honey. Handy for quick inspections on its own or mixed with hessian for when Im spending longer with the bees.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, they are, Lindsay.  My neighbour is a chicken farmer, and he used those rolls to make pens when 'tipping in' chicks - that's when new one-day old chicks arrived in the sheds.  I got more off-cuts than I could use or even store.  He is now becoming an egg farmer and changing the sheds to become free-range sheds for hens.  I don't know whether he'll use those rolls of corrugated cardboard again.
Kitta

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## fatshark

But think of the egg boxes Kitta ... they're great in a smoker.

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## busybeephilip

Egg boxes do the job but you get a lot of tar build up in the smoker, my answer is hessian , i use a local bagmaker offcuts

it would be nice to get a natural material that would also kill mites

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## Thymallus

> it would be nice to get a natural material that would also kill mites


Could always try dried Rhubarb leaves..... :Smile:

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## RDMW

Today I learnt to dissect a bee to check for tracheal mites. With the aid of utube (thanks Stuarts beekeeping basics chanel) and my low power binocular microscope I could readily see the trachea.  Luckily I could not see any mites or tracheal scarring 


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## RDMW

I have started using very dry very rotten crumbly wood. Current batch is from a decaying oak. It lights with a capful of alcohol poured in the top ignited with a match. Burns slow and cool 


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## madasafish

> I have started using very dry very rotten crumbly wood. Current batch is from a decaying oak. It lights with a capful of alcohol poured in the top ignited with a match. Burns slow and cool 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I use Birch wood - crumbly from 5 years or so as timbers for a compost bin.

B&M natural firelighters (fine wood turning covered in wax) are ideal smoker lighters. Cut in half they light with one match and burn steadily.

I have an insert in my smoker from Rauchboy http://www.rauchboy.net/epages/17848...ries/Category2

Larger one fits perfectly although my smoker is a £13 cheapy from ebay. Add a handle of steel wire, remove from smoker, load up with wood shavings (petshop)  and set alight underneath with self igniting blowlamp (Wickes) - or use firelighters  - or both (my solution).

Never have any problems even in howling gales - not that I do much beekeeping in gales..

Life is too short to worry about lighting smokers or what to burn.

( I also use: pine cones- lots locally, dead oak, thyme stalks - for a nice smell)

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## wee willy

> I use Birch wood - crumbly from 5 years or so as timbers for a compost bin.
> 
> B&M natural firelighters (fine wood turning covered in wax) are ideal smoker lighters. Cut in half they light with one match and burn steadily.
> 
> I have an insert in my smoker from Rauchboy http://www.rauchboy.net/epages/17848...ries/Category2
> 
> Larger one fits perfectly although my smoker is a £13 cheapy from ebay. Add a handle of steel wire, remove from smoker, load up with wood shavings (petshop)  and set alight underneath with self igniting blowlamp (Wickes) - or use firelighters  - or both (my solution).
> 
> Never have any problems even in howling gales - not that I do much beekeeping in gales..
> ...


Untreated cat litter Smokes all day ! 
Remember to properly extinguish 



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## Adam

Had the opportunity to check my stocks this weekend. It's fair to say that they are smaller than I would expect to see at the end of March. One old queen left in a hive 'to see if she would survive' died leaving a small handfull of bees. I probably should have 'dealt' with her last October and used the bees to strengthen another colony. Another colony had a DLQ which I had feared as supercedure was attempted very late. Queen squished and that has now been combined with a nuc that was beside it. One small nuc has just one patch of brood about 100mm across - if the Beast from the East had gone on for much longer I suspect the small colonies would not have survived. 
I have received a number of calls from local beekeepers who have lost colonies over winter so I suspect that winter losses will be greater than usual this year.
I guess too  early for you guys North of me to inspect?

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## fatshark

No inspections yet (or likely ... Brrrr) but I've still got the 15 or so I entered the winter with, going by foraging activity in the warmest part of the day and 'evidence' of brood rearing on the _Varroa_ trays. Mite levels appear reassuringly low, though perhaps they're all busy feasting on the first pupae of the season  :Frown:  It's been the sort of winter I like - distinctly cool, with frosts on a high proportion of mornings since mid-November, going by the number of times I've had to scrape the car windscreen before work. More importantly, it's the sort of winter I think is better for the bees.

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## greengumbo

> No inspections yet (or likely ... Brrrr) but I've still got the 15 or so I entered the winter with, going by foraging activity in the warmest part of the day and 'evidence' of brood rearing on the _Varroa_ trays. Mite levels appear reassuringly low, though perhaps they're all busy feasting on the first pupae of the season  It's been the sort of winter I like - distinctly cool, with frosts on a high proportion of mornings since mid-November, going by the number of times I've had to scrape the car windscreen before work. More importantly, it's the sort of winter I think is better for the bees.


One month on from this post. Pause rewind play repeat.

Snow on the ground here today.

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## fatshark

Lost two due to dud queens - one old 'un just stopped, another that looks like a late (unmated) supercedure. 
Moving colonies yesterday and got cold, wet and miserable. 
Snow on the low hills above the house and cancelled my Nairn trip tonight because of the forecast.
On a more positive note, mite levels still look low.

Could we please have Spring now?

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## lindsay s

Checked the hives on Monday and all bar one have used up their candy. More than half are alarmingly light and I think its just me thats keeping them going. More candy has been made up and is going on in double rations the morn. The temperature dropped to 0c in the snow showers at midday and only 5c in the sun, its still far to cold for even a peep under the crown boards. The flowering currant  isnt out and not one dandelion is in sight, everything is late here this year. The last few years have been below average for beekeeping up here and every spring I hope surely this year will be better than the last? 
Is too early to write off 2018?  :Frown:

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## fatshark

Flowering currant ... Ha! There's been some flowering in St Andrews for ages. I have a photo from the 15th of March, but it had been out for days before that. I think it's a hopeless predictor of suitable weather for inspections. 

2018-03-15 14.03.28 copy.jpg

We have -5oC predicted for tonight. I'm moving more bees tomorrow if my apiary isn't underwater from the rain we've had in the last 36 hours. I expect to get cold, wet and miserable again.

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## steve

> Checked the hives on Monday and all bar one have used up their candy. More than half are alarmingly light and I think it’s just me that’s keeping them going. More candy has been made up and is going on in double rations the morn. The temperature dropped to 0c in the snow showers at midday and only 5c in the sun, it’s still far to cold for even a peep under the crown boards. The flowering currant  isn’t out and not one dandelion is in sight, everything is late here this year. The last few years have been below average for beekeeping up here and every spring I hope surely this year will be better than the last? 
> Is too early to write off 2018?


Don't be that pessimistic yet, I didn't open a hive until May Bank holiday in 2013.

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## Thymallus

> The temperature dropped to 0c in the snow showers at midday and only 5c in the sun, it’s still far to cold for even a peep under the crown boards.(


Bu Eck lad, you are making North Yorkshire sound proper tropical. Our daffs are nearly out...

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## prakel

SAM_4501.jpg

Just another week to go if the weather holds in the sunny south. 

But in the meantime

SAM_4468 (2).jpg

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## Adam

The weather here has been pleasant in the last few days but cool and colonies are behind where they should be. A slow and late start to the season, so stocks will possibly be smaller than in most years although they should make up by August! A farmer told me he is a month behind where he should be and the pollinator strip he has agreed to plant will be the last thing to be put down  :Frown:   So even that will be late flowering! 
I have almost lost count of the number of beekeepers who have been ringing round looking for overwintered nucs - and many beekeepers will not want to wait until June for them with proper British 2018 queens.

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## madasafish

> The weather here has been pleasant in the last few days but cool and colonies are behind where they should be. A slow and late start to the season, so stocks will possibly be smaller than in most years although they should make up by August! A farmer told me he is a month behind where he should be and the pollinator strip he has agreed to plant will be the last thing to be put down   So even that will be late flowering! 
> I have almost lost count of the number of beekeepers who have been ringing round looking for overwintered nucs - and many beekeepers will not want to wait until June for them with proper British 2018 queens.


I managed to overwinter 3 queens in min mating nucs (lost one)...Pity I lost 2 off 5 frame nucs  (out of 4).. Main hives all OK..mainly on 7-8 frames bees and v active on good days. (pollen patties for bad).

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## lindsay s

Although I have kept bees for many years I always feel apprehensive before carrying out my first proper inspection of the beekeeping year. Sunday was none different, what was I going to find and more worryingly what if the colonies were queenless, drone layers or dying out. I cant rush out and source more bees up here because were still varroa free and people are waiting for bees. So I just had to bite the bullet and get on with it. 
Early in the afternoon when the weather was sunny but with a cold easterly breeze I managed to do five hives before the fog rolled in and it got too cold. Their floors were cleaned and mouldy and poor combs were removed from the hives. I always try to work the poor combs to the edge of the hives at the end of the of the previous summer. The brood inspections were very brief and I found that all five colonies had laying queens with open and sealed brood, but unfortunately only on two frames and some of the patches were small. 
Most of the hives will be getting small but regular quantities of syrup for the next few weeks to keep them ticking over. Another six hives to go, hopefully by next weekend. The way things are up here at the moment there could be some serious uniting taking place if things dont improve by mid May.
P.S. This is the type of beekeeping I like talking about so Ill leave the scientific stuff  :Confused:  to the rest of you.

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## prakel

Nice walk by the seaside

SAM_4565.jpg

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## fatshark

OSR here is only about 10" high at best, and some appears to have been really hammered by beetles/bad weather

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## prakel

> OSR here is only about 10" high at best, and some appears to have been really hammered by beetles/bad weather


Must admit, the bees aren't as strong as normal for this time of year... Mind the osr on this particular holding is three weeks behind last year according to the farm records so it probably balances out.

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## Bridget

I think that here in the Highlands we are only about a week behind last year, though the snowdrops were later.  I have a photo of snow taken on the 25th April last year where I can see some bushes nearly in leaf and some drooping daffs.  IMO I think that the advantage of being near the mountains means that we do get some good spells of alpine weather during the winter when the bees get a chance to fly in the sun and my bees will fly at 4 degrees if its sunny.  Anyway, all 4 hives through the winter and collecting large amounts of pollen from a neighbours Salix Alba Argentea, the first tree out around here. Even the pathetic swarm that seemed to be dwindling going into winter has 2 lines of what Fatshark calls broken biscuits, though its still only just 4 frames of bees at present.  photo taken last Friday, you can see the bees against the blue sky.


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## fatshark

Anyone any idea what they're on in deepest Fife? I opened boxes near the coast today and they all had winter stores and a trace of new nectar, but lashings of pollen. In contrast, inland the brood boxes are filling fast with nectar. One strong box was nearly full and on ~6-7 frames of brood. This was atypical; most were weaker, some much weaker. No appreciable different between the poly and cedar boxes .

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## gavin

> Anyone any idea what they're on in deepest Fife? I opened boxes near the coast today and they all had winter stores and a trace of new nectar, but lashings of pollen. In contrast, inland the brood boxes are filling fast with nectar. One strong box was nearly full and on ~6-7 frames of brood. This was atypical; most were weaker, some much weaker. No appreciable different between the poly and cedar boxes .


I had a flow from my strongest colonies two years ago at a site a mile or so away from your inland one and recovered some honey.  Pretty sure it was willow.  They're certainly hitting the willow where they can with large amounts of pollen in the comb.  Sallow/goat willow signs are like OSR: yellow on the face and big gobs on the legs, sometimes an all-over covering of the stuff too.  This year (for me anyway) these strong colonies are less frequent so I'll be happy if they just build well on it. 

Have a look at the waggles dances.  Are they pointing in the direction of my site, or perhaps in the other direction where there are also likely to be large areas of willow around the wet areas?

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## Thymallus

Last year I harvested my first few supers of honey from some very strong colonies on the 27th of this month.  Came across the bucket the other day which reminded me that I've not yet analysed the pollen, must look and see if it is willow.

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## Adam

I now have OSR flowering close-by. In fact I have never had it within 2 km before this year, so I am interested to see what happens. However colonies are generally smaller this year so I am not sure how much honey I will be able to harvest.

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## lindsay s

Earlier today I had my first phone call of the year saying “ help l’ve got bees in my house and l don’t know what to do”. After a quick visit to the house I discovered a Queen bumblebee was trying  to nest in wall insulation which was uncovered during building work. Advice was given and l left. Then when I got home I decided enough is enough, no more bee phone calls. Over the years without charge I’ve climbed ladders, crawled around in very tight roof spaces and stuck my head in all sorts of strange places just to find bumbles or wasps. Even though the home occupiers were convinced they were honey bees. I’ve phoned the council and told them to take my name of their list, because 95% of the calls I get don’t involve honey bees and they just want to pass the buck. I’m also unavailable throughout  the day.
Am I being terribly MEAN?  :Mad:

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## madasafish

> Earlier today I had my first phone call of the year saying “ help l’ve got bees in my house and l don’t know what to do”. After a quick visit to the house I discovered a Queen bumblebee was trying  to nest in wall insulation which was uncovered during building work. Advice was given and l left. Then when I got home I decided enough is enough, no more bee phone calls. Over the years without charge I’ve climbed ladders, crawled around in very tight roof spaces and stuck my head in all sorts of strange places just to find bumbles or wasps. Even though the home occupiers were convinced they were honey bees. I’ve phoned the council and told them to take my name of their list, because 95% of the calls I get don’t involve honey bees and they just want to pass the buck. I’m also unavailable throughout  the day.
> Am I being terribly MEAN?



I have done the same this year for the same reasons

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## alancooper

In West Fermanagh, willow is abundant - very early and much pollen gives colonies a great start. I have read that willow can also give nectar but have been sceptical of this. However, this year and in a late spring, I have strong hives and a lot of what seems to be fresh capped and uncapped honey, at a time when very little except willow is flowering.

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## Adam

> Earlier today I had my first phone call of the year saying “ help l’ve got bees in my house and l don’t know what to do”. After a quick visit to the house I discovered a Queen bumblebee was trying  to nest in wall insulation which was uncovered during building work. Advice was given and l left. Then when I got home I decided enough is enough, no more bee phone calls. Over the years without charge I’ve climbed ladders, crawled around in very tight roof spaces and stuck my head in all sorts of strange places just to find bumbles or wasps. Even though the home occupiers were convinced they were honey bees. I’ve phoned the council and told them to take my name of their list, because 95% of the calls I get don’t involve honey bees and they just want to pass the buck. I’m also unavailable throughout  the day.
> Am I being terribly MEAN?


I had a mad woman call me (not mad as in annoyed but mad as in barking) this weekend asking me to identify a bee of some type over the 'phone. 
So it's started for me too. 
In general people seem to read my website, ignore the advice and then STILL call. Callers demand bumblebees are removed sometimes and some say that bees are 'swarming around a bird box' when there's 1/2 dozen bees flying around in the evening. 
One told me that snipped off all the flowers in her garden so she didn't get a bee in there at all in case one of the children got stung. Other swear blind that they have honeybees in a bird box and they are Bombus Hypnorum - the tree bumblebee every time. Well, every time but one. Last year there actually was a swarm that entered a bird box. It was a box for a Little Owl so much bigger that the usual tit box we have in our gardens. I didn't believe it until I saw a photo.
I guess patience is a virtue!

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## greengumbo

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ing-pesticides

Interesting development but not surprising.

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## fatshark

Yep ... I got asked to comment on that earlier today for the Science Media Centre. I didn't. I suspect things might change after Brexit.
I looked at a field of OSR a week ago and it was absolutely wrecked by something that had nibbled back all the leaves and growing buds. It didn't look like it would be much use for my bees.

Actually, thinking about it, it won't be ... it's 5 miles from the apiary  :Wink:

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## fatshark

And todays news is ... it's bloomin' cold. Bees flying really well in the heat of the midday sun (10C) and probably still hammering the remaining willow, but by 3pm they'd all gone home.

I built a new hive stand and my Travis Perkins receipt told me the breeze blocks I purchased weighed 159kg ... useful  :Wink:

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## prakel

> I built a new hive stand and my Travis Perkins receipt told me the breeze blocks I purchased weighed *159kg* ... useful


You must get some serious crops up there  :Smile:

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## Adam

Could you use the blocks for the building of a Zest hive maybe?

it will be interesting to see by how much (or whether) pollinators increase once the ban has taken full effect.

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## Paul_

> it will be interesting to see by how much (or whether) pollinators increase once the ban has taken full effect.


I have a niggling suspicion that pesticides is a minor cause in the decline of pollinators compared to the destruction of the plants they feed on.

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## Adam

Inspected a few nucs last night. All low on stores despite there being lots of forage around and OSR nearby. The weather has been rubbish again!  :Frown:

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## Thymallus

> I have a niggling suspicion that pesticides is a minor cause in the decline of pollinators compared to the destruction of the plants they feed on.


I say this tongue in cheek, but "THE wasp EX-spurt" on't'other forum reckons one wasp nest devours 5 metric tons of insects per year. Easy to see why there is a decline in insects.
How they fit that much biomass through a nest the size of a football leaves one boggling at the tardis like properties of wasp nests.
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Cool:

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## RDMW

May I ask for some advice? I have overwintered three strong colonies on double brood. All are building up well. Last year I encountered problems with swarm control and have made demaree boards over the winter to use this year. My question is how do you demaree with double brood. Do you end up with a tower of boxes - floor new brood body with new comb/ flying bees and queen/QE/super/demaree board and then the two original brood bodies with brood and nurse bees?  If so seems very unwieldy. 
Thanks for advice 


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## RDMW

we encountered this poor bee in a local hive this week. Other bees all seemed ok. Is this just a result of brood cooling or DWV or something else??


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## busybeephilip

Managed to kill 6 queens (wasps) today in the garden with a soapy water spray, thats a good lot of wasps less in the autumn attacking my hives

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## busybeephilip

Typical DWV more than likely due to varroa

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## RDMW

> Typical DWV more than likely due to varroa


Thats what I thought but interestingly the varroa drop was O in 48 hours after 2 x oxalic acid treatments over the winter. 


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## busybeephilip

Two treatments close together could be a problem, its possible to overdose and poison the bees esp if you are using a home made dribbling recipe and get it wrong.  Usually a failure to control varroa results in a small number of bees in the spring eventually dieing off during Feb/Mar/April the tell tale signs on post mortom  is patches of sealed brood with the cappings torn to show the heads dead immature bees and some chalk brood like symptoms and a small dead cluster of bees

OA treatment is not an instant kill, better using a polymer plastic type strip to monitor for varroa for 24-48 hour monitoring where the effect of the chemical is much quicker

Also, dont forget that if there is any open brood in the hive the varroa  will be "trapped" in the brood and escape the OA tratment

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## Feckless Drone

> My question is how do you demaree with double brood. 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I suggest old Q downstairs, QX, super, upstairs the brood. Take it form there. You don't need to add another brood box but will need a super.

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...how do you demaree with double brood ... seems very unwieldy.





> ...Is this just a result of brood cooling or DWV or something else??


Yes, that's a photo of a bee with DWV, RDMW.  You can sometimes see bees with DWV even though the colony is free of varroa.  You could do a sugar roll test to see if your colony has varroa, or how bad it is.  This is a good video explaining how to do it.

As for performing a Demaree on a colony on double brood - yes, I agree, the hive can become huge and difficult to manage.  Sometimes you can reduce the frames from the two top boxes by moving the broodless frames into the queen's new box at the bottom.  That may help to reduce the frames sufficiently so that you have only one box at the top - not two.  I've done that - whether that's good practice or not, I don't know.

Kitta

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## fatshark

Could you just rearrange the frames in the two boxes separated by a split board and then re-unite? Obviously this wouldn't then be Demareed ... so perhaps not what you're after.

Or buy a stepladder  :Wink:

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## Adam

Double brood colonies usually have a couple of supers on them so there is quite a bit to lug about. I generally find that by the time I move up to 12 frames of brood in the top box of a Demaree, there's not too many for down below - and enough of a change to stop the swarming instinct as the top brood box above the supers has the nurse bees which move up to go with the brood. As Kitta suggests, you could possibly donate a frame or two of brood to elsewhere.... If you are assuming that you will get queencells in the top box as the brood is a good distance from the queen and her pheromone is reduced, then you could potentially make up a nuc with a couple of frames of brood and some shaken in bees. Once you have a sealed queencell from the top box of the Demaree, you could pop that frame into the nuc after removing the queencells in the nuc, and then allow the queen to mate. 

I use a Demaree for queen-right queen-raising. Once the colony has had a go at raising it's own queencells in the top box, I remove them and then insert some grafts from a favoured queen and a frame of pollen into the top brood box. A little syrup (1/2 pint/day) for 5 days as an insurance against bad weather and a poor flow and you have sealed queencells. (Delicate at this stage btw).

here's one from June last year.
Demaree queen raising.jpg

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## RDMW

> Double brood colonies usually have a couple of supers on them so there is quite a bit to lug about. I generally find that by the time I move up to 12 frames of brood in the top box of a Demaree, there's not too many for down below - and enough of a change to stop the swarming instinct as the top brood box above the supers has the nurse bees which move up to go with the brood. As Kitta suggests, you could possibly donate a frame or two of brood to elsewhere.... If you are assuming that you will get queencells in the top box as the brood is a good distance from the queen and her pheromone is reduced, then you could potentially make up a nuc with a couple of frames of brood and some shaken in bees. Once you have a sealed queencell from the top box of the Demaree, you could pop that frame into the nuc after removing the queencells in the nuc, and then allow the queen to mate. 
> 
> I use a Demaree for queen-right queen-raising. Once the colony has had a go at raising it's own queencells in the top box, I remove them and then insert some grafts from a favoured queen and a frame of pollen into the top brood box. A little syrup (1/2 pint/day) for 5 days as an insurance against bad weather and a poor flow and you have sealed queencells. (Delicate at this stage btw).
> 
> here's one from June last year.
> Demaree queen raising.jpg


All very helpful thank you. Whew thats a tower of bees alright!!


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## Adam

You can see a small cluster of bees between the top two supers. I had forgotten about this... the white painted one was a second hand unit that was given to me and had some rot in the corner so bees found their way in and out. I am not sure if the box was painted that then caused the rot as the wood couldn't breathe or if it was a bit grotty and someone painted it to tidy it up.

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## RDMW

My homemade solar wax extractor performing well in the sunshine! A steeper angle improved effectiveness very much. Lovely clean creamy yellow wax with a gorgeous smell. Chuffed to bits 


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## fatshark

Got a reasonable swarm in a bait hive yesterday at 3pm. I couldn't leave it where it is so was up at the apiary at 7am to stuff the entrance and move them elsewhere. It's was cool and cloudy and there was no entrance activity. I put another bait hive in the same spot ... 

On checking the apiary this evening there was quite a lot of entrance activity and pollen clearly going in. However, on further checking, it wasn't another swarm that had moved in - the box had a few dozen bees in at most - so these must have been stragglers that stayed out overnight and then returned to find the original colony gone. About 25% of the bees are carrying pollen.

I know bees stay out overnight sometimes. However, I was surprised so many did when the colony had only relocated to the spot a few hours before the end of the previous day.

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## Jambo

Various good bee plants in my garden are being ignored by my bees - this time last year they were covered.  Main ones being caenothus and fuschia, the latter I know is a bit awkward for bees.  Confirmation that there are plenty of better offerings elsewhere?  Plenty of willowherb around, which is covered in bees. Maybe yields better in the warmth.  

Also - is it me or are the wasps into their sugar feeding phase much earlier than normal this year?

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## Adam

Ceanothus usually gets a few bees on it in my garden. Blakcberry is still flowering at the moment although I expect that it will finish soon. Just starting to extract it - the top 2 supers have a clearer board under them. WP_20180713_19_41_56_Pro.jpg

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## Jambo

Yes same here - busy on blackberries too.  I also have newly made up nucs which are largely ignoring the feeder.

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## lindsay s

Wake up and smell the CLOVER!!! 
Thats what the bees at my Summer apiary are doing at the moment. The clover has reached its peak and  I cant remember the last time it was this good. Its my main honey crop here. The fields are full of sown white and theres plenty of wild about as well, my bees are working both. While I was checking hives at 7 pm tonight the bees were still piling in and most of the spare cells in the brood combs were full of nectar. After the silage is cut we can sometimes get a good second growth. I hoping the weather holds for a few more weeks and if I get a couple of supers per hive Ill be absolutely delighted (this is Orkney lm writing about  not the balmy south).

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## Bridget

We've had tremendous clover this year in the highlands.  It's gone on and on.  Do you mean if it's cut it will bloom again?  I stopped my husband from cutting it so the bees could have it.  Maybe I should have got him to cut it in sections.


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## Jambo

> Do you mean if it's cut it will bloom again?  I stopped my husband from cutting it so the bees could have it.  Maybe I should have got him to cut it in sections.


It does Bridget yes.  A hay field next to me was full of flowering clover, cut on 24 June, white again by 10 July - and probably better in fact since the grass is now shorter.  

Doing it in sections would be ideal if you don't mind the faff.

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## Bridget

> It does Bridget yes.  A hay field next to me was full of flowering clover, cut on 24 June, white again by 10 July - and probably better in fact since the grass is now shorter.  
> 
> Doing it in sections would be ideal if you don't mind the faff.





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## fatshark

> I stopped my husband from cutting it so the bees could have it.  Maybe I should have got him to cut it in sections.


It sounds to me like Bridget has the 'faff' component of cutting in sections completely sorted  :Wink:

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## Jambo

Outsourced  :Smile: 

Do we often get decent lime flows in Scotland? I was walking around a National
Trust property yesterday morning and several huge limes were buzzing, air smelt fantastic too.  It was just under 20 degC, still, overcast and very humid, which I think I read somewhere is ideal.

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## gavin

> Do we often get decent lime flows in Scotland?


They are more reliable in the west but even there not a heavy cropper.  I have one site in Perthshire with lots of lime trees and get a super off the strongest hives in most years.  This year it has been poor with just a couple of half supers but the bees brought in a pile of light honey instead, probably mostly clover.  Elsewhere I see smaller amounts and probably should follow Murray's advice to run for the hills instead, at least to sites with bell heather.  I had a small site in the middle of Dundee for a few years which is surrounded by lime trees and only ever saw small corners of lime honey.  

It is a remarkable honey though.

----------


## Thymallus

> It is a remarkable honey though.


Have 1/2 dozen very mature lime trees about 200 yards from my garden apiary. Never got a lime crop from them ever. A bit of research has shown that the nectar is produced in the mornings and is exposed to the air and simply evaporates unless you get really humid conditions, which in late June/July is very rare here..especially this summer! Yet the trees are alive with bumbles, wasps, hover flies and the like all day, you can hear them from 100 yards away. I think it's aphid honey dew they are probably attracted to, not the nectar which has long since evaporated. Strangely I never see my bees there, presumably they are on richer/easier nectar sources.
I did get excited when I found I had transparent light green honey....but no characteristic minty taste and pollen analysis showed, as suspected, field bean pollen + many others. I found a single lime pollen in the whole sample.

One year...one year..it will be right.

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## Jambo

:Smile:  I did spot at least one honey bee on the trees yesterday - I believe our own GreenGumbo has hives in the vicinity so maybe he has got lucky!

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## Feckless Drone

Thinking about how to describe that feeling when opening up the bait hive to see what happened to the decent sized swarm, that is definitely not mine, of very mild mannered bees that arrived at the end of June, to see that they have drawn out and laid 6 frames worth in a beautiful pattern, then you find the Q who looks gorgeous and even better now with a red dot on her. So, now to a full brood box. The word may be "deserving". Makes up for time spent with the Tayside public discussing what to do and not do with bumble bees, trying to keep track of calls from the public about swarms that have disappeared, and then there are the bees in the attic of cottage up in the hills that I said I'll look at. 

As an aside - I looked into the water driven fruit press for getting heather honey last year. It looks excellent but I would want to test it first before making up my mind.

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## greengumbo

> I did spot at least one honey bee on the trees yesterday - I believe our own GreenGumbo has hives in the vicinity so maybe he has got lucky!


We'll see  :Wink: 

Was it haddo or pitmedden Jambo ? I'm checking them this week. Loads of honey from my sites but I think it may just be the boom of clover !

Haddo sometimes gets a bit of lime but not a supers worth a la Gavin.

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## Jambo

> We'll see 
> 
> Was it haddo or pitmedden Jambo ? I'm checking them this week. Loads of honey from my sites but I think it may just be the boom of clover !
> 
> Haddo sometimes gets a bit of lime but not a supers worth a la Gavin.


It was Haddo - I'd be interested to know how you get on for my own education, the noise was mad.  Good luck!

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## greengumbo

> It was Haddo - I'd be interested to know how you get on for my own education, the noise was mad.  Good luck!


Oh nice. I'll drive past tonight on the way home and have a look / listen.

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## gavin

I had thought that the lime was over here for this year but, clearing supers at a site in N Fife last night, found some yellow-green stuff which I had to taste.  It isn't minty but definitely like citrus lime (no relation).  Gather a few bunches of flowers and make a tea with boiling water (5 mins steeping) and you'll get the idea. Feckless drone also reports it is still in flower in parts of Dundee.  

There is oodles of Japanese knotweed there which I hope might give me a crop some year.  Not in flower yet, but all the best colonies are on their way to the hills tonight.  Nearly done with the heather shift. 

Been waiting in for a delivery that (doh!) hasn't even  been dispatched yet! Oh well, beekeeping in the evening is definitely the way to go, these days anyway.  Someone is about to lose a Buckfast swarm (best thing for them!).  Some bees are sniffing about the empty boxes at the back of the house and some have diverted in here, smelling bee stuff in here too.

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## Jambo

> I had thought that the lime was over here for this year but, clearing supers at a site in N Fife last night, found some yellow-green stuff which I had to taste.  It isn't minty but definitely like citrus lime (no relation).  Gather a few bunches of flowers and make a tea with boiling water (5 mins steeping) and you'll get the idea. Feckless drone also reports it is still in flower in parts of Dundee.


Interesting, it is very much still in flower around Aberdeenshire.  Thanks for your earlier reply btw.




> There is oodles of Japanese knotweed there which I hope might give me a crop some year.


AMMs foraging on a non-native invasive plant!?

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## Calluna4u

> I had thought that the lime was over here for this year but, clearing supers at a site in N Fife last night, found some yellow-green stuff which I had to taste.  It isn't minty but definitely like citrus lime (no relation).  Gather a few bunches of flowers and make a tea with boiling water (5 mins steeping) and you'll get the idea. Feckless drone also reports it is still in flower in parts of Dundee.  
> 
> There is oodles of Japanese knotweed there which I hope might give me a crop some year.  Not in flower yet, but all the best colonies are on their way to the hills tonight.  Nearly done with the heather shift. 
> 
> Been waiting in for a delivery that (doh!) hasn't even  been dispatched yet! Oh well, beekeeping in the evening is definitely the way to go, these days anyway.  Someone is about to lose a Buckfast swarm (best thing for them!).  Some bees are sniffing about the empty boxes at the back of the house and some have diverted in here, smelling bee stuff in here too.


Wont be mines Gavin...all ours are away from your area.

There is the new bee farm started up based not far from you that have a few hundred Buckfast hives however.............have seen some of them. If you think them losing their bees is the best thing you don't want honey...I have seen some of these and they are doing sensationally. One set are on their THIRD Dadant DEEP (ABOVE the broodnest..so four high) on the bell/ling in Glenshee already! 2 full Dadant deeps? That's some crop! and they are piling it in. Must confess to envious looks. They may just be some of the best outsourced stock I have seen in a long time.

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## gavin

I came home to a kitchen full of the wee devils.  Not exactly full, but quite a few.  They were on a raiding party rather than a swarming attempt.  *Very* glad the weather has broken as I think I'll have to close the windows for a while.  Are they really that close? 

Another bee farm in the crowded territory that we use just seems .... well, not right.  I have a hard enough time finding decent sites as it is away from the existing bee farmers.

Any chance you'd get envious of this near Amm stock?!  The first time I've had to use a box to stand on to get supers on and off.  OK, not all are like this but many have been really strong this year.

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## gavin

> *What's that word? * 
> 
> Thinking about how to describe that feeling when opening up the bait hive to see what happened to the decent sized swarm .....


In my part of Scotland it would have been two words: 'Yah beauty!!'.

I think I now have the last Buckfast out of the house.  When setting off yesterday I discovered the main reason for all the bee interest.  I'd forgotten that I'd left a brood box with honey in the truck and the side windows open.  Must have been about half a super's worth of bees distributed along the Carse as I stopped repeatedly to let more out.  Leaving the house unguarded, they turned their attention indoors.  Suspect I'll be looking out for netting and gaffer tape to get though this last extraction in the house before transferring to a new honey house. 

Cracking lightning show last night - and a remarkable transition from bone dry to torrential downpour just as I pulled off the road with foam closures and hive tool beside me.  Maybe I'll get them locked in and away tonight instead.  That monster colony might have cleared its supers by then too.  There are so many bees in there - and brood too - that I expect it will rebuild to a decent stack on the ling too.  Especially with the ground now dampened to some extent. 

About 10 mm of rain in Dundee last night but as much of it came down in a short space of time it felt like a lot more.

G.

PS the continuously updated SEPA site for rainfall is currently showing 31.4 mm for Gella Bridge in Glen Clova (not that I have bees in that particular glen) so that should help the forage up there.

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## gavin

> AMMs foraging on a non-native invasive plant!?


I know.  They have just no shame.  Himalayan balsam, Japanese knotweed, sometimes giant hogweed, certainly sycamore, coneflower (taking over parts of the Tay), just about anything in a garden or sown by a farmer.  Scold them as I might they *still* proceed with their unethical foraging choices.  What can a man do?! 

Anyone who thinks that beekeeping is some environmentally friendly activity that benefits the environment needs their ..... oops, sorry, shouldn't go there!  But bumble bees are just as bad, aren't they?

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## fatshark

> Thinking about how to describe that feeling when opening up the bait hive to see what happened to the decent sized swarm, that is definitely not mine, of very mild mannered bees that arrived at the end of June, to see that they have drawn out and laid 6 frames worth in a beautiful pattern, then you find the Q who looks gorgeous and even better now with a red dot on her.


Whatever the word is it's the antonym of the feeling you get when you're set up to extract 20+ full supers on a wet weekend and you realise you've run out of honey buckets and Thorne's of Newburgh closed an hour ago.

D'oh!

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## Thymallus

> The first time I've had to use a box to stand on to get supers on and off.  OK, not all are like this but many have been really strong this year.


It's got so bad this year I keep a step ladder permanently in the apiary.  I'm afraid these are not Amm's.

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## Jambo

> I know.  They have just no shame.


 :Big Grin: 

In other news I'm positive I saw drones kicked out this weekend.  Murray reporting same on the other place...  A bit early isn't it?  

I'm still surrounded by hay fields (cut) which are white with clover, so am I wrong to be hopeful some more might come in this week as the weather improves again?  In fields that haven't been cut the clover is now turning brown.

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## The Drone Ranger

probably got home late after an afternoon down the next door hive and found their suitcases on the doorstep

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

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## Jambo

Flew past who knows how many fields on the way home and didn't even bother their abdomens to pick up some pollen.

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## fatshark

Feels like it's all over in my part of Fife ... nothing much coming in and no HB in range for a late boost. Supers off and honey extracted so they're welcome to whatever else they can find.

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## Thymallus

Similar. Gone from super a week to frame a week although they have found the balsam....which round us is very early (like everything) this season. Taking as many to the heather as I can...fingers crossed it yields. Ling on Western North York moors is just coming into bloom. Might start making up 2:1 Sugar solution just in case.

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## Adam

July has come to a halt as regard t honeyflow for me. However still lots of bees in the hives nowhere for them to play out. This is the time of year where the advice of not to spill syrup or leave honey-covered thing around the apiary as it might induce robbing, is very valid.

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## fatshark

And a helluva lot of wasps this season ...

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## lindsay s

Most of my supers will be on for another two weeks yet because I work single broods and the bees need the room. I’ve been consolidating the honey by removing undrawn and empty frames from the supers before the bees finish it off. With the queens cutting back on laying most of what’s coming in is now getting stored downstairs. It can be a bit of a gamble leaving the supers on very strong colonies at this time because if the weather breaks it can soon disappear. I once went to remove honey from a hive in late August only to find it had gone.  :Mad:  While I was checking bees today I noticed a definite change in their mood, they’re much more defensive so it’s time for entrance blocks. Everything has changed a lot in the last week. On the plus side l now have seven nucs with laying queens  :Smile:  some of them will be over wintered and the rest united with poor colonies.

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## Adam

Your point about bees needing the room is valid; I am removing some of the supers from each hive so they maintain some space in addition to the brood boxes and will then go around later to take the rest off. I might leave an extracted super on some for the time being until the colony reduces in size. Although I want to treat for varroa as soon as I possibly can.
There doesn't seem to be any real forage, however, I looked at some nucs yesterday and they have plenty of liquid stores so they are getting a little something.

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## lindsay s

> I might leave an extracted super on some for the time being until the colony reduces in size. Although I want to treat for varroa as soon as I possibly can.


I store my supers wet sealed up in bin bags, the smell of the fermented honey draws the bees into the supers in the spring. I don’t have to deal with varroa yet but with a large increase in the number of people wanting to keep bees up here it’s only a matter of time!

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## Thymallus

> Although I want to treat for varroa as soon as I possibly can.


A real North South divide coming into play here....and I'm in the middle  :Smile: 
Just taken the last of my hives onto the North Yorks moors heather today...will be bringing them back mid Sept and then treating for varroa.....be good if I lived where Lindsay did...no treatments necessary and I presume (visit on my to do list) heather?

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## lindsay s

The heather here doesnt bloom on the same scale as the mainland and varies a lot from year to year. Our cool weather also has an effect on the yield. My mentor once managed to get a few supers of heather honey in very good late summer, I gave him a hand at the time. I dont know of any beekeepers here who work it for a crop. A few of us might get a little bit if our hives are nearby. Im nowhere near any heather and personally I cant stand the taste of it.

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## fatshark

Extracting all finished. It's been a dry summer and some of the honey has a very low water content. 
Nothing over 18% and some as low as 14-15%. The latter - despite working in a warm room with the supers at about 30oC - came out like treacle. 

Delicious treacle  :Smile:

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## wee willy

> Extracting all finished. It's been a dry summer and some of the honey has a very low water content. 
> Nothing over 18% and some as low as 14-15%. The latter - despite working in a warm room with the supers at about 30oC - came out like treacle. 
> 
> Delicious treacle


Likewise 
No osr around these parts but very rapid granulation! 
Its been so hot and dry that the bees have been able to exploit lots of early spring flowers , loads of which are rapid granulating types ! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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## Thymallus

Interesting. For the first time ever I managed a spring crop with no OSR. I just checked and the buckets are just starting to crystallize, so a slow setter in my books. The hives I took to the rape...all set within 7 days of harvesting.
Looks like another frustrating session with the microscope trying to identify pollen's to see what they were collecting from...
I wonder why your spring honey was a fast setter?

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## fatshark

I have two apiaries, one with easy access to OSR the other with none in range (to my knowledge). The early June extracted honey from the former is starting to granulate, but more slowly than previous years I think. As Thymallus suggests, I suspect the bees had access to other nectar this Spring and the usual high-glucose OSR nectar is 'diluted' with something else that has slowed granulation. 

Why is runny honey much easier to sell that soft-set?

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## wee willy

> I have two apiaries, one with easy access to OSR the other with none in range (to my knowledge). The early June extracted honey from the former is starting to granulate, but more slowly than previous years I think. As Thymallus suggests, I suspect the bees had access to other nectar this Spring and the usual high-glucose OSR nectar is 'diluted' with something else that has slowed granulation. 
> 
> Why is runny honey much easier to sell that soft-set?


My problem !
I harvested some lightning fast setting honey .
 Buttery coloured when set !
No body wants it 
My wife set up a ( taste ) set , people were surprised !:
Some thought it was going off!
They soon realised what they were missing 


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## Jambo

> Likewise 
> No osr around these parts but very rapid granulation! 
> It’s been so hot and dry that the bees have been able to exploit lots of early spring flowers , loads of which are rapid granulating types !





> Interesting. For the first time ever I managed a spring crop with no OSR. I just checked and the buckets are just starting to crystallize, so a slow setter in my books. The hives I took to the rape...all set within 7 days of harvesting.
> Looks like another frustrating session with the microscope trying to identify pollen's to see what they were collecting from...
> I wonder why your spring honey was a fast setter?


Mine got a load of dandelion (I think) this year.  Managed to isolate a couple of frames of it and it set within a week or two.  It is almost clear and it stinks!  There is more mixed in with sycamore and chestnut I think which is darker and still isn't granulating, this is a delicious honey, if a bit strong.

In other news I think I'll be putting on clearer boards tonight and extracting anything that is left over the weekend.

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## greengumbo

> Mine got a load of dandelion (I think) this year.  Managed to isolate a couple of frames of it and it set within a week or two.  It is almost clear and it stinks!  There is more mixed in with sycamore and chestnut I think which is darker and still isn't granulating, this is a delicious honey, if a bit strong.
> 
> In other news I think I'll be putting on clearer boards tonight and extracting anything that is left over the weekend.


Good luck clearing the honey  :Smile: 

I'm going to see what became of that lime flow on monday. There were full to bursting supers to extract at the site so fingers crossed.

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## Thymallus

> Why is runny honey much easier to sell that soft-set?


I think most customers associate runny honey as "honey". Honey out of the comb is always shown in advertisements etc in a liquid form and many of the younger generation have never heard of soft set and need a bit of educating. The light white colour appears strange to them, many ask me what it is.
However, once they have tried a few samples  and taken a jar or two ...many are hooked for life.
But, despite my giving it the big sell...runny still nearly always outsells my soft set....
Apart from in August, when many of the Yorkshire country shows are on. All the visitors have to drive across the now resplendent bluey/pink moors and all they want is heather honey. It couldn't be better advertised.
Clearer boards are on the first supers of this years heather honey harvest and it's Danby show on Wednesday...going to be a close run thing....

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## lindsay s

Ive often heard people say that newspapers are getting smaller. This was confirmed to me last night while I was uniting two colonies. One sheet of the local rag wasnt even big enough to cover the brood box! :Wink:

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## Jambo

> Good luck clearing the honey 
> 
> I'm going to see what became of that lime flow on monday. There were full to bursting supers to extract at the site so fingers crossed.


Thanks - some of it is still looking a bit wet which is a surprise. 

I hope I haven't got you unnecessarily excited about a lime bonanza, but if you get lucky put me down for a couple of jars please!

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## Jambo

Surprising amount of pale yellow pollen getting piled in at 8:30 this morning, the only things I can see flowering in any quantity are RBWH (nearly over and wrong pollen colour) and redshank...  Never heard the latter being discussed as a good bee plant but could it be?  A few acres of turnips about which are completely overrun with it!

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## Mellifera Crofter

Last week's news: I know mother and daughter are often found in the same hive, but I was surprised at the length of time one of my mother-daughter teams have been together now.

Around mid-May I saw a new queen in the hive, and no sign of the mother.  By mid-June I marked her red.  I assumed she was mated as there were eggs in the hive, and I still didn't see the mother.  I saw the red queen once more, and then for the whole of July I didn't see a queen at all - but there were always eggs.

The beginning of this month I saw yet another new queen - unmarked - in the super (no queen excluder), and found the mother still happily living downstairs in the brood box, and no red queen.  During my inspection I moved the new queen into the brood box and assumed the mother will have vanished by my next visit - but she's still there!  The young queen is back in the super and the mother is below.

So, since mid-May the mother and a daughter have been living together - three months!  Is that usual?  (Out of interest - the mother is one of the queens that survived floating down the Deveron in January 2016.)

Kitta

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## Jambo

Interesting stuff Kita. I'll also be interested in the responses you get.

I was doing some quick inspections, treatment and feeding on Wednesday morning before heading off on holiday. Found one colony completely broodless and relatively grumpy. 

They also hadn't bothered going through the hole in the crownboard to clean up some wet supers I had given them the day before. Not sure of the significance of this but the other three colonies I had given the same to had cleaned them completely, so thought it was interesting. 

I was going to the airport in a couple of hours and away for two weeks so had no time for a test frame, I think it's a bit late for mating and I didn't want to come back to laying workers, so I went to the smallest room in the house to retrieve the air freshener and embarked on a C4U-style unite. 

Had a look an hour later and there were quite a few bees crawling on the ground but it didn't look like complete carnage. On reflection, when I saw Murray doing this at the heather I think it was generally two colonies with laying queens that were being united so I suppose the main risk is that my broodless hive had a virgin running around in it, she challenges my lovely, gentle, and very prolific 2018 laying queen to some fisticuffs, wins, and then fails to mate and I now have two knackered colonies in one. Time will tell!

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## Adam

Kitta, I guess the red marked queen failed to mate or had something wrong with her so she never got as far as bumping off her mum. It DOES seem a long time for two queens, however it would appear that your bees clearly know what they are trying to achieve. As a 2015 queen, your queen doesn't have too  long to go perhaps; mine don't get past their third year - I tried to overwinter three 2015 queens over the past winter - all in nucs. One died during the winter and the colony didn't survive the Beast from the East. The second was superceded quite early in the season. Thankfully the weather was OK for mating. The third lasted another couple of months after several supercedure events where I stole the queencells. Finally I saw the daughter out one day with Mum still present. I thought that the next day I would retire her to a mini-nuc as she was still laying well albeit a little slowly, but she had gone. 

How long do queens last for you? Your season is shorter than mine so there's a good chance that your queens will go on for a bit longer than darn sarth?

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## Mellifera Crofter

You're probably right, Adam, that something might have been wrong with the red queen, and I suppose the two-storey arrangement of mother in the brood box and daughter in the super might also help to keep them living together in the same hive.

I had quite a few blue queens earlier in the season, but I think this queen is the last one.  The others have all disappeared for one reason or another, and I had to kill two.  (I try to avoid doing that - but sometimes it must.)

I hope you find your favourite queen still in the hive when you come back from your holidays, Jambo.  Fingers crossed.

Kitta

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## madasafish

My oldest queen -a 4 year old Buckfast# - was superceded this year. Mum and daughter seen in August. Just as well as Mum was hobbling and no honey yield this year - I left one honey super on all hives as I was tired of manually extracting . Through teh clear CB today I could see LOTS more bees - a full 10 frames so hopefully they will be good next year..
# never swarmed.

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## lindsay s

The Scottish Bee Company were on Good Morning Scotland today. https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/b0bhrhk1  Youall find it at 2:43:50
I never new about them, nice website. https://scottishbeecompany.co.uk/

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## fatshark

Nice packaging on their honey as well.
Cool website but pity about that Einstein quote.

einstein-bee-quote-bogus-nw-md.jpg

PS What's with the 'bee count' at the top of the page ... it's increasing. Perhaps it only records births, not deaths.

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## lindsay s

> PS What's with the 'bee count' at the top of the page ... it's increasing. Perhaps it only records births, not deaths.


If the activity at the front of my hives this week is anything to go by, my drone count will soon be zero. :Wink:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> PS What's with the 'bee count' at the top of the page ... it's increasing. Perhaps it only records births, not deaths.


Perhaps Greengumbo can tell us!

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## Jambo

> I hope you find your favourite queen still in the hive when you come back from your holidays, Jambo.  Fingers crossed.
> 
> Kitta


Thanks Kitta - managed a look today and delighted to find her there and now a big hive of docile bees.  Although I think I took the right action in the circumstances I'm not sure I will repeat it when I have the time for a test frame!

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## Mellifera Crofter

Great.  I'm glad she survived, Jambo.

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## busybeephilip

I thinks its a counter recording the number of visits to the site, each time you reload the page it increases by one count, doubt if it started from zero  :Smile: 
its also very regular - a timer?   not to worried about it anyhow

the code is  "span>10,165,204</span> ==$0" havent a clue what it is - just a counter of some sort

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## lindsay s

Bee thefts are still taking place even this late in the year and I  feel sorry for the beekeeper involved. The press do like to dramatise bee stories and if they had said four hives instead of 60,000 bees it wouldnt have had the same effect. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...tland-45597954

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## lindsay s

Beekeeping was featured on BBC Scotlands Landward last night. Filmed at Newbattle Abbey College. Their dark bees were nice and gentle. Youll find it at 09:55 on the iPlayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...19-episode-15#

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## prakel

Not today, but this season at least:

SAM_5308 (3).JPGSAM_5307 (2).jpgSAM_5308 (2).jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

That looks alien, Prakel. Is it a moth who tried its luck in a beehive?

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## prakel

> That looks alien, Prakel. Is it a moth who tried its luck in a beehive?


Yes, a Deaths-head Hawkmoth, presumably it's pheromone 'invisibility cloak' failed. Quite a fascinating find and yes, alien is a common response when people see it!

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## lindsay s

Hi all it’s a bit quiet on the forum at the moment so I’ll give you a summary of my years beekeeping here in Orkney.
Winter.
Early February the hives were active on nice calm days so l gave them candy. Later in the month we missed the Beast from the East and all it’s snow but it was very cold and dry up here at that time.
Spring.
More candy added in the first week of April. I carried out five of the first quick inspections on the 15th of the month and the rest a week later. Eleven out of eleven colonies ok but only had 2 or 3 frames with brood. In late April and early May there was an abundance of dandelions in bloom (one of the best in years) so it was a big boost to our colonies.
Summer.
Early June after a slow buildup the last of my colonies got their first supers, no sign of swarming anywhere in Orkney. End of June and the start of July all change here, very warm weather and lots of swarming up here. At a new sheltered apiary I was trying out 3 hives swarmed despite being split beforehand. Luckily they were caught and put back but drastic measures were called for so I left a queen excluder under their brood boxes for a couple of weeks till things calmed down. Bad beekeeping practice I know so I might have to try out new swarm controls next year. 
Lots of bee samples from Orkney were sent off for the AMM survey but we’ve not heard anything yet. Lots of clover out in July but but the weather was very dry  so we were hoping for rain to help improve the flow but it never came. In the first week of August the nectar flow stopped suddenly and the mood of my bees changed, other beekeepers here noticed the same thing as well.
Autumn.
Plenty of pollen was still coming in at the start of September and I’m over wintering 4 nucs in poly nucs for the first time so I hope all goes well. Although I averaged 45lbs of honey per producing colony that does not give the full picture. Some of my weaker colonies with old queens and in a poor area produced very little honey, but 3 colonies that had been split at my clover site still managed to produce  about 65-75lbs each. Overall above average crops here this season.
Local association meetings are now taking place each month, we are still varroa free and we have lots of people who would like to start beekeeping up here. Our only problem is meeting the demand for local bees for obvious reasons.
P. S. Would anyone else like to say how their honey crop was this season?

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thank you, Lindsay. Thats a nice synopsis of the beekeeping year in the Orkneys. 

Ill try and follow your example next year, and  take better notes of changing weather, month by month. 

As for honey - a bumper crop, but also a lot of swarming. 

Kitta

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## lindsay s

Thanks M C 
I always record the weather every time I open up the hives. Up here its a lot more variable than on the mainland. The two things that show up most often in my notes are that the temperatures are in the low to mid teens and its a cool wind! The weather was very poor the year that I averaged 14lbs of honey per hive but I cant remember when offhand.

----------


## Adam

> Some of my weaker colonies with old queens and in a poor area produced very little honey, but 3 colonies that had been split at my clover site still managed to produce  about 65-75lbs each. Overall above average crops here this season.


Something I noticed this year in particular was the fact that 2016 queens ramped up brood-rearing slowly and produced a much lower crop compared to 2017 queens. My guess is that the late spring was to blame. However the crop in general was excellent for me this year. It's a shame there is no clover to speak of around me so there's a dearth until Ivy comes to the rescue.

One swarm from 11 full-sized colonies. 800kg.

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## Feckless Drone

Recent publication in Proc. Natl. Acad Sci. on Varroa's food source. In the abstract - Via transmission electron microscopy, we observed externally digested fat body tissue in the wounds of parasitized bees. Mites in their reproductive phase were then fed a diet composed of one or both tissues. Mites fed hemolymph showed fitness metrics no different from the starved control. Mites fed fat body survived longer and produced more eggs than those fed hemolymph, suggesting that fat body is integral to their diet when feeding on brood as well.

The investigators used stains to follow the different tissue - would have been interesting to use a mass spec approach perhaps on in vitro raised mites to prove/confirm what is being taken up. Why would a parasite pass up the opportunity to acquire nutrients from both fat and hemolymph?

----------


## greengumbo

> The investigators used stains to follow the different tissue - would have been interesting to use a mass spec approach perhaps on in vitro raised mites to prove/confirm what is being taken up. Why would a parasite pass up the opportunity to acquire nutrients from both fat and hemolymph?


Quite.

Pretty pictures though !

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## prakel

this started the day as waste wood in a skip and an offcut of mesh left from another project; add a tenon saw, set square, chisel, handful of nails, some glue and 30 minutes (so far, still needs sealing).
SAM_5784 (2).jpg

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thats quick work, Prakel - and a good-looking feeder. 

Will you just varnish the inside for sealing, or also add some silicon to the joints?

Kitta

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## prakel

> That’s quick work, Prakel - and a good-looking feeder. 
> 
> Will you just varnish the inside for sealing, or also add some silicon to the joints?
> 
> Kitta


Just varnish Kitta, the joints are already assembled with a good quality glue and I have (hopefully not misplaced) confidence in my work... Did a second one before 9am today so it was a worthwhile salvage.

----------


## Mellifera Crofter

I found this little bee on the side of one of my hives yesterday.  I thought it looked as though it is suffering from DWV - or is it just an old bee with tattered wings?
Kitta
fullsizeoutput_267.jpg

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## Adam

It hardly looks like a honey bee and it doesn't look like it could fly - so it must have got there on foot?

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, it's not a honey bee!  I don't know what it is - some sort of Andrena?  I saw a large colony of these bees last summer using road drainage pipes as their nesting sites not far from my out apiary.  It would be sad if they also suffer DWV.
Kitta

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## Silvbee

Looks like Andrena Scotica, a very common spring mining bee in Scotland. https://www.flickr.com/photos/630752...7640800969414/ 




> Yes, it's not a honey bee!  I don't know what it is - some sort of Andrena?  I saw a large colony of these bees last summer using road drainage pipes as their nesting sites not far from my out apiary.  It would be sad if they also suffer DWV.
> Kitta

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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks for the link, Silvbee.  So, it seems that this sad-looking little bee was a female.

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## Feckless Drone

Hi - not done a proper inspection yet but quick peek under the crown boards identified a few strong colonies. I want to try a Baillie comb exchange for the first time, but unsure about the timing. It seems too cold here at the moment to give them a lot of space up top or syrup.
Anyone started or thinking about this? Murray Mc gets comb drawn in the autumn and I can see the benefits of making use of the bee power at that point. But, its means feeding liquid and I put most of my colonies (certainly the ones back from the heather) under a block of fondant for winter.

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## fatshark

Hi FD ... when I was down South I did Bailey comb changes but later in the season (even there). You really need the warmth for drawing loads of new comb. I'm not thinking about it, but if I was it would be in 2-3 weeks at least.

My strongest colonies have a few drones in them already. These are on double brood in the shed. I've done no inspections yet but it is a few drones, not a drone laying queen!

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## Feckless Drone

> Bailey


 I see, as in the drink! I'm going to have to be patient here but have to try it. I am determined to have lots of high quality drawn comb when making splits and I do wonder if there is an element of stimulative feeding (also something I've not done). My sites tend not to see much nectar coming in till at least middle of May so I'll probably have monster colonies perfectly timed for the June gap. Oh the joys!

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## fatshark

The NBU leaflet (Replacing Old Brood Comb) that covers Bailey changes states from March "_This system is ideal for replacing all the combs at once and is best performed in early spring often, with clement weather, March is suitable, but remember to keep feeding so the bees can build comb._"

Looking out at the rather dreich weather this morning I suspect you'd be better waiting a bit  :Wink:

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## lindsay s

Heres a couple of links for the Bailey comb change for anyone whos not sure about it. Ill plead guilty to not replacing all of my brood combs on a three yearly cycle ( NBU leaflet) and I bet most of you reading this will be the same. Many years ago I carried out the Bailey comb change when converting some of my hives from B S frames to 14x12. I didnt know the term for what I was doing at  the time but I managed to figure it out for myself. It took a lot of feeding and effort from the bees due to our cool weather but it worked out OK. I think I did it in late May.  I thought new comb in cleaned hives would get rid of my pesky chalkbrood once and for all but alas it was back within a couple of years☹️. The 14x12 hives didnt work out for me so Im now back on B S Smiths (that can be a different post).
I can see the point of having nice new comb for splits F D especially if youre selling them. The link to the video is good for beginners but remember they are in Norfolk!
http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/downl...nt.cfm?id=1074
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm_UBm4HEn4#

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## Adam

> The NBU leaflet (Replacing Old Brood Comb) that covers Bailey changes states from March "_This system is ideal for replacing all the combs at once and is best performed in early spring often, with clement weather, March is suitable, but remember to keep feeding so the bees can build comb._"
> 
> Looking out at the rather dreich weather this morning I suspect you'd be better waiting a bit


The NBU leaflet is probably based on somewhere in 'middle England' rather than some parts of the UK; you may need to wait a while before doing a bailey comb exchange north of the border.

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## fatshark

Checked a dozen or so colonies today in balmy Fife ... the strong ones were packed and they were busy drawing lots of brace comb up into the upturned curry trays I gave top up fondant in. There are drones in the strongest colonies as well. 

Might not be too long to wait ... though North of the Tay there may still be permafrost of course  :Wink:

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## Feckless Drone

Well - at my apiary up at 200 m above sea level we do have a forecast of frost overnight. And down "souff" folk are putting supers on. A quick peek yesterday in one colony, and lifting crown boards and hefting others suggests enough stores but fondant mostly gone, and drone brood but not yet any flying. I must write 1000 lines "I will be patient". Do they still get lines at school?

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## madasafish

> Well - at my apiary up at 200 m above sea level we do have a forecast of frost overnight. And down "souff" folk are putting supers on. A quick peek yesterday in one colony, and lifting crown boards and hefting others suggests enough stores but fondant mostly gone, and drone brood but not yet any flying. I must write 1000 lines "I will be patient". Do they still get lines at school?


Only of coke.......

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## RDMW

I really like Stewarts videos from the Norfolk Honey Company. Very clear and well presented -warts and all!


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## greengumbo

Big blizzards coming through Methlick area this morning. Crazy weather for May.

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## Jambo

Indeed - blizzards and 90% OSR must be a rare combo!?

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## fatshark

Go West young man ... fabulous day on Ardnamurchan with nearly unbroken sunshine and the first cuckoo of the season  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

Posts about double brood, second supers, splits and swarms has me thinking I must be living on a different planet! Last week my best colonies had five frames of brood which is pretty good for this time of year. 5-8c in the middle of the day here and the latest forecast predicts its to be cold and windy till the middle of next week. Theres a lot of open brood in the hives now and Im worried about the bees being able to keep it warm. So last night as a precaution I gave seven hives a feed of light syrup and Im hoping that the extra energy will help the bees to maintain their colony temperature. The last thing I want is a lot chalkbrood which is common here when the colonies are under stress. Also Ive got a poly nuc bursting with bees and brood that should have gone into a beginners full sized hive by now. But its too cold to be drawing out foundation so the bees will just have to stay put for now.☹️☹️☹️
P S. Im sick to Fatshark, with jealousy about how well your bees are doing 😝😝😝

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## Feckless Drone

Just to update anyone interested - 3 colonies set up to initiate Bailey comb change, strong (9 combs worth of brood, and actually not really in need of any new comb!), medium (6 combs brood), weak (5 frames brood, less bees, pretty scabby comb, lots of chalkbrood). All colonies in poly nationals. 
Within 1 week, after 4 consecutive nights of being given 1 kg sugars worth of syrup, the strong colony has drawn out every cell on 10 frames and Q has laid up at least two of them. She also went back down to the bottom box and laid down there as well. Feeding stopped. 
The same treatment given to the medium strength colony -  8 frames drawn out well, the ends left. The weak colony - have not taken down the feed and refused to come up to the new box. So, mixed performance.
Now the weather has turned cool again. I expected too much from the weak colony - in every sense lagging behind the other two. 
The strong colonies have been left as a double brood system and should bring in a crop of honey if the sycamore yields well. I'll keep them as double brood until I need to split.
I am won over by getting alot of lovely new comb and keen now to try this in the autumn as wel, as C4U advocates, when there is beepower to exploit.

I need to do something with the weak colony - I have a spare Q but I am thinking about a shook swarm and then re-queening (the replacement Q had to be moved out of the garden so need to wait till her flying bees are done).

Now in a panic, just assessed equipment and realize I don't have enough for whats to come.  End of last week there were huge loads of pollen coming in and quite a bit of nectar. OSR around Tayside looks to be at its peak.

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## Jambo

Thanks for sharing FD - as a newcomer I'm still short on drawn comb so keen on info like this. I think one of the reasons C4U advocates doing it in the autumn is less/no drone brood.  Did your lot make a lot of drone brood this time?

I had a go at the autumn method last year with reasonable results.

Also spent a lot of yesterday staring at piles of equipment still flat that I was supposed to build up over the winter...

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## Feckless Drone

Hi - no issues re drone cells, just a couple of small patches. In the past I've put a shallow frame and the bees put a large mass of, exclusively, drone brood on the bottom bar which I then remove. Nothing like that on these new frames.

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## Feckless Drone

I've a colony that just has not come on as others have and its on grotty comb with more chalkbrood than I've seen before. Action required - so shook swarmed for the first time and jeez its harsh! Hopefully they will take down the feed, tonight the varroa treatment starts then will requeen shortly. My notes from last year commented on noticeable chalkbrood in this colony and I hoped a good summer had just dealt with it. I have been too tolerant of this disease - DR up near Forfar, has been posted missing in action I think, has been strong advocate of dealing with this disease - good advice.

Lovely smell and sound around the strong hives last night, and like most of you the swarm control has started - one Q has made good her escape.

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## Feckless Drone

> I'm still short on drawn comb ...


I used the recent inspections to remove frames on the outside of strong colonies and insert foundation 2 or 3 frames in - even splitting the brood in a couple. The warmth predicted for this week, and incoming nectar seemed like the time to get more new comb.

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## Adam

My guess is that the chalkbrood will resume after shook swarm. Queen replacement is probably the answer and it has worked for me. (And I transferred a CB queen to another colony a few years back and the CB transferred with her).

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## RDMW

Swarm season here in the north-west highlands of Scotland kicked off on the 28th of April with all four of my colonies making active swarm preparations. Thus far I have managed to avoid any swarming with a mixture of splits, transferring the old queen to a nucleus hive and Demaree. The demaree worked well but I had to grub out a lot of cells from the top box. At least I have managed to hang on to my bees but I have two bait hives set up just in case. We had a very mild February followed by a cold March and a very warm second half of April. 
The challenge now is to amalgamate and get a decent colony to take to the lime. 


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## lindsay s

Excellent weather here this week and Im on holiday, so Ive spent plenty of time with bees. Ive supplied three beginners with colonies that were overwintered in poly nucs. The last was moved into a Smith hive on Sunday at a very exposed location and Im hoping theyll be ok. 
I was helping Sue (our secretary) with her bees on Monday, she was marking queens and adding first supers. Most of my colonies are still drawing out new foundation in their brood boxes and three were given their first super. Seven queens have been marked this season and they came through it unscathed, its a job I hate doing because Im heavy handed. Its usually mid June before swarming starts up here and it reaches its peak about the start of July, so Ive got time yet to get my nucs ready for splits. 
Finally me and Sue did a recording at my apiary for radio Orkney today. We were speaking about Orkneys dark bees and because they are varroa free we stressed the importance of not bringing in bees from the south. The recording went well but when we were packing up the reporter got stung on the lug as he was removing his veil.☹️ I hope the jar of honey he got is some consolation.

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## fatshark

Post a link to the recording when it's broadcast ... hopefully with the expletives at the very end redacted  :Wink: 

Down here in the balmy South I hived my first swarm on the 30th of April. Colonies are generally very strong and the OSR is in full-swing. Most boxes have been split or Demareed already, perhaps too early in some cases as there was a coldish period earlier in the month and it's still not consistently warm for queen mating. 

A few colonies are a bit slow and I'll have to decide whether to persevere with them or unite with strong colonies the in the next 2-3 weeks. With splits and nucs being moved up to full hives I've already got too many boxes to inspect ...

The west coast has had better weather than the east (at least the bits I've seen - but I've mainly been stuck in an office  :Frown:  ). I've still yet to see a honey bee in our part of Ardnamurchan and the bait hive sits there looking expectant. The bait hive in my garden in Fife has had some interest but that waned after I did some swarm prevention at my local apiary  :Wink: 

They'll be back!

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## Feckless Drone

Yes, would be interested to hear this interview Lindsay. 
I have similar situation to FS, but a week of two behind. Some but not all colonies making swarm preparations, and splits underway using a mix of nucleus method with old Q and Snelgrove boards. All 2018 Qs still laying well. I've run out of supers! and I need them yesterday. Some OSR coming in, sycamore is yielding really well this year and hawthorn pollen piling in.  Seems strange but I've only really done two proper inspections and will have to harvest in the next week - 10 days. Big lesson this year has been Bailey comb exchange (colonies now working two supers) and shook swarm (4 nice frames and eggs) but long way to go - this is one of those colonies that should have been dealt with before now - the new comb, and once united with a 2019 Q might make something good for the heather.

Can see lots of the commercial setups around OSR fields in Angus; more so than last year I think.

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## Neils

I have bees again!

Two local nucs, inspected as we transferred to my boxes, queens seen, brood in all stages. Bees nice and calm on the frames and a fellow land rover enthusiast to boot.

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## RDMW

I had an interesting thing happen. I made up a nuc at the end of April and it developed a nice Queen cell which hatched fine. We had a spell of lovely weather just right for mating. 
Then I noticed a large number of bees clustering under the nuc (it is a Paynes polynuc with a mesh section in the floor) initially I wondered if they had reared two queens and were about to swarm. But the cluster persisted for several days during which I did not have time to deal with it. I wondered if the nuc was very congested. A few days ago I went through the nuc. No eggs. Lots of bees inside the nuc but not overcrowded. I transferred the frames into a National hive and brushed the cluster off the bottom of the nuc into the hive.   Since then the bees have all stayed in the hive and flown as usual 
Is it possible that the queen flew and mated and on return missed the entrance and ended up on the outside of the mesh floor and then workers clustered round her??



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## Jambo

A hectic start to the season for me so far!  Took seven hives into winter, one queen turned into a drone layer leaving me with six.  

Of those six, five of them have already made swarm preps which I've tried to deal with by removing the queens into nucs. Four of those five were 2018 queens... I think I was late to super them as I hadn't appreciated how far on they were in early April.  Trouble is it has got cold again so I am unsure how well queen matings will be going and I have had to open hives up in far from ideal conditions to knock down QCs.  Only one hive needing 7 day inspections now though which is nice, and fingers crossed I'll have a good bunch of vigorous queens for my first trip to the heather!

I'd like to boost the main colonies (in process of raising new queens) with frames of brood from my nucs - can anyone confirm at what point in the cycle of raising a new queen they will no longer try to draw QCs on said frames of brood?  Should an emerged virgin be enough, or better to wait for signs of laying?

PS - Fatshark's latest blog post (https://theapiarist.org/keeping-track/) has a great idea for keeping track of colonies and queens.  I have taken it a step further and found some coloured discs on ebay (item no. 282431167115) which can be bought in the five standard queen marking colours, so have got myself a set of green and red ones which should get me going!

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## Feckless Drone

> I made up a nuc at the end of April and it developed a nice Queen cell which hatched fine. We had a spell of lovely weather just right for mating. 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


April/early May in Ullapool seems early to expect good mating. Do you think there were enough mature drones available? Has that worked before? My limited experience is that the bees seem pretty good at guiding a new Q back to the comb or the Q's have learned where they need to be. The only time I find bees under the boxes is when a clipped Q fails to get too far.  My first Qs of 2019 are only due to fly around now (and the forecast is not good).

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## RDMW

Hello. I was hoping for mating mid to late May. We had a very mild February and April and there were lots of mature drones in early May. It has been an unusually mild spring although the last few days have been cold and wet. Time will tell if eggs appear!!


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## Adam

> I had an interesting thing happen. I made up a nuc at the end of April and it developed a nice Queen cell which hatched fine. We had a spell of lovely weather just right for mating. 
> Then I noticed a large number of bees clustering under the nuc (it is a Payne’s polynuc with a mesh section in the floor) initially I wondered if they had reared two queens and were about to swarm. But the cluster persisted for several days during which I did not have time to deal with it. I wondered if the nuc was very congested. A few days ago I went through the nuc. No eggs. Lots of bees inside the nuc but not overcrowded. I transferred the frames into a National hive and brushed the cluster off the bottom of the nuc into the hive.   Since then the bees have all stayed in the hive and flown as usual 
> Is it possible that the queen flew and mated and on return missed the entrance and ended up on the outside of the mesh floor and then workers clustered round her??
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Anything is possible with bees!

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## Adam

> I have bees again!
> 
> Two local nucs, inspected as we transferred to my boxes, queens seen, brood in all stages. Bees nice and calm on the frames and a fellow land rover enthusiast to boot.


Excellent Stuff!

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## Neils

We're getting there.

My one allowance to fiddling this year is to compare 14x12 with [double brood] nationals.  So to that end I've basically shook swarmed one of the nucs, with a single frame of brood, into a 14x12 Nuc with a mix of comb and foundation and a good feed.  All the rest of the brood is now in the other nuc which is on a single brood national and a super frame for drone.  Going to give that a week or so to really get going and then add a Super in the first instance, a second brood box can likely wait until next year I suspect.  Ideally want one apiary on 14x12 and the other on Nationals and never the twain shall meet, but for now they're both on in the same place.

This weekend has been making up new hive stands and getting some paving slabs to finally sort out making the main apiary start to look half decent again.

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## lindsay s

This was recorded two weeks ago but was only broadcast today. Dont worry I didnt smoke the bees to death! They wanted sound effects for the radio which also included moving frames out of the hives so they could get the mike in. Unfortunately this item was heavily edited and us talking about our near native dark bees was left out. But at least we got the Varroa message across.
Press play and use the dark blue bar on the bottom of the screen to scroll to15:30
https://m.mixcloud.com/radioorkney/a...30th-may-2019/
Im off to the bees now for first time in two weeks!!! (Its been far to cold for opening up the hives.)
Heres a link for photos put on their Facebook page today.
https://m.facebook.com/media/set/?se...Q&__tn__=-UC-R

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## Feckless Drone

> we got the Varroa message across.


You did! Good listen - I had not realized that Varroa have reached Caithness.

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## Adam

> This was recorded two weeks ago but was only broadcast today. Don’t worry I didn’t smoke the bees to death! They wanted sound effects for the radio which also included moving frames out of the hives so they could get the mike in. Unfortunately this item was heavily edited and us talking about our near native dark bees was left out. But at least we got the Varroa message across.
> Press play and use the dark blue bar on the bottom of the screen to scroll to15:30


I had a listen. It's always the case that a programmes is edited in the way you don't like too much. However it sounded good.  :Smile:

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## Neils

Having a listen now.

Picked up a swarm this evening, just trying hard to squeeze into "Swarm in May".  Suspect it's a cast, but around 3 frames on 14x12 so not to be sniffed at too much just yet.

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## fatshark

Anyone know what this shrub is? The bees - of all types, bumble, honey and solitary - were hammering it yesterday.

190601-064.jpg

For size comparison, the big old girl in the photo is almost the size of the last joint of my thumb.

Many thanks

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## RDMW

A cotoneaster variety??



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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, I also thought its Cotoneaster.  Mine isnt flowering yet - but when it does, the bees love it - particularly the wasps.

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## wee willy

> Anyone know what this shrub is? The bees - of all types, bumble, honey and solitary - were hammering it yesterday.
> 
> Attachment 2977
> 
> For size comparison, the big old girl in the photo is almost the size of the last joint of my thumb.
> 
> Many thanks


One of the cotoneasters but not Horizontalis I think .


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## Feckless Drone

I've been extracting. I've quite a few frames with decent amount of pollen present which is not really something thats been a problem before. Any suggestions about how to treat these frames?

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## RDMW

Could  you put them back on the hive under the brood bodies for the bees to clean, then take them off in a couple of weeks?


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## greengumbo

I have a hive that swarmed on Saturday morning onto the branches of a big lime tree about 30ft up and totally inaccessible without cherry picker.

I've stuck a few bait hives out nearby with attractant for scouts and they have been interested....... but the swarm is still up there and not budging after nearly 3 days now. It was awful weather on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning so I understand why they hung about.....but its glorious today and was yesterday. 

Anyone seen stuck swarms like this before ?

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## Feckless Drone

I've put wet frames on top of a crown board for the bees to clean up, but I am really not sure they move pollen about once its been tucked into the comb. I can try your idea of putting underneath the brood, does work well to clean up crystallized stores or maybe at the edge of a colony and see if they use it as normal. 

Re: GG: a stuck swarm. Not really seen that but how about a very long pole with a queen pheromone tablet/plastic strip stuck on the end and waved right beside them? https://www.betterbee.com/mating-nuc...-pheromone.asp
Or ask C4U where you might get such a thing, used to keep packages of bees without a Q happy for a period of time. Or, cage an old Q and wave that up at them. I'm clearly delusional that any such thing would work but its a strange thing when a beekeeper sees or thinks about swarms.

Not sure whats worse - a swarm you can get but that will not stay put or one that stays put and you cannot get.

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## fatshark

I'd put *just one* bait hive close by ... don't give them a choice. _Honeybee Democracy_ has the details but if there are equally attractive locations they might take longer to come to a decision.

What I've not seen is two successive days of glorious weather in Aberdeenshire  :Wink: 

I've tried dropping swarms like that into a box on the ground. Place a sheet under the swarm with a suitable box ready nearby (floor, lid, dark, smelly). Chuck a rope over the branch with the swarm. *Check your beesuit is done up properly * . Give the branch a hard tug to drop the swarm onto the sheet. Pandemonium. Immediately place the box adjacent and with the entrance facing the bulk of the bees. Cross your fingers.

It's spectacular but I can't guarantee success. 

PS At least you didn't start your post _A friend of mine has recently lost a swarm ..._   :Wink:

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## RDMW

Green gumbo. If you give Fatsharks method a try (and I dare you to  :Wink:  please consider asking a friend to film it as it sure would be a sight worth seeing. 
Im struggling a bit with a swarm I housed in a polynuc. Lots of bees are clustered under the mesh floor. Maybe there are too many bees to fit inside but it is so darn wet and rainy that I cant transfer them to a hive. 


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## lindsay s

> I've been extracting. I've quite a few frames with decent amount of pollen present which is not really something thats been a problem before. Any suggestions about how to treat these frames?


Extracting combs!!! Ive still got 5 hives awaiting their first super.😭
I work single brood chambers and nearly all of my first supers contain some pollen. I see it as a minor problem and after extraction in the Autumn all of my supers are stored wet in airtight bin bags. Any pollen is quickly used up by the bees when the supers go back on in the next Spring especially if the weather is poor.

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## greengumbo

> I'd put *just one* bait hive close by ... don't give them a choice. _Honeybee Democracy_ has the details but if there are equally attractive locations they might take longer to come to a decision.
> 
> What I've not seen is two successive days of glorious weather in Aberdeenshire 
> 
> I've tried dropping swarms like that into a box on the ground. Place a sheet under the swarm with a suitable box ready nearby (floor, lid, dark, smelly). Chuck a rope over the branch with the swarm. *Check your beesuit is done up properly * . Give the branch a hard tug to drop the swarm onto the sheet. Pandemonium. Immediately place the box adjacent and with the entrance facing the bulk of the bees. Cross your fingers.
> 
> It's spectacular but I can't guarantee success. 
> 
> PS At least you didn't start your post _A friend of mine has recently lost a swarm ..._


Alas I didn't get the chance to try ! They relocated to a more accessible holly bush at head height and are now in a large nucleus box  :Smile:  Need a good feed though as must have used up stores a plenty while hanging about.

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## RDMW

https://www.frasersauctionroom.co.uk/sales/266 check out this cool trailer!!


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## fatshark

What a great find!

Not clear how much headroom there is for supers under the foldback covers. 

After you've towed it back up the A835 please send us some more pictures of it ...  :Wink:

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## Neils

Painful afternoon. Definitely a June gap kicking in and one of the hives was mean. Got more stings in 10 minutes than Ive had in the last 5 years, this one never got in thankfully.

1439DC8B-8B3A-4486-AE85-70213B0F16CB.jpg

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## lindsay s

> Painful afternoon. Definitely a June gap kicking in and one of the hives was mean. Got more stings in 10 minutes than Ive had in the last 5 years, this one never got in thankfully


Stop pleeping (Orcadian dialect for complaining) Neils. Your beekeeping is easy compared to this honey harvesting and they arent too fussy about how its eaten!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/923833...rtical-cliffs/

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## Neils

Hahaha!  Pleeping, I like that one

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## RDMW

I did a spilt at the start of May from my favorite colony. Made two nucs each with a fine queen cell. Both cells hatched but now one nuc has a laying worker and the other no sign of eggs.  I have put a frame of eggs into the second nuc but presumably it is queenless. Will adding eggs prevent the second nuc producing laying workers?? Thank you 


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## fatshark

Development of laying workers is slowed by a pheromone from open brood, so your developing eggs/larvae should help.

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## lindsay s

> I did a spilt at the start of May from my favorite colony. Made two nucs each with a fine queen cell. Both cells hatched but now one nuc has a laying worker and the other no sign of eggs.  I have put a frame of eggs into the second nuc but presumably it is queenless. Will adding eggs prevent the second nuc producing laying workers?? Thank you 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I wouldnt give up on your queens just yet. Its quite common to wait 5 or 6 weeks for a queen to be mated and laying here. 
It might be possible that the new queen is not yet in her stride and the egg pattern will sort itself out in a few days time, because l think that has happened with me in the past. If Im wrong about this someone put me right.
Lovely day here today after two weeks of poor weather, so lve united a weak colony and Ive been moving brood frames around to strengthen a few weak hives. Not a lot of stores in the hives at the moment and three are still awaiting their first supers!

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## RDMW

Thanks for the positivity!  The first nuc had cells with two eggs and eggs stuck in the side walls and drone larvae, so I fear that a lying worker is inevitable :Frown:   however the second one may be as you suggest. Fingers crossed. 
Lovely day here too. Bees launching themselves into the sunshine after ten straight days of rain. Great to see


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## Neils

> I wouldn’t give up on your queens just yet. It’s quite common to wait 5 or 6 weeks for a queen to be mated and laying here. 
> It might be possible that the new queen is not yet in her stride and the egg pattern will sort itself out in a few days time, because l think that has happened with me in the past. If I’m wrong about this someone put me right.
> Lovely day here today after two weeks of poor weather, so l’ve united a weak colony and I’ve been moving brood frames around to strengthen a few weak hives. Not a lot of stores in the hives at the moment and three are still awaiting their first supers!


I'd agree with you. 5-6 weeks not uncommon and I've also found it not entirely impossible that adding a frame of eggs/brood can sometimes be enough to 'kick start' a new queen into laying. I'd suggest that the number of times that I've shoved a frame of eggs in a colony only to find on the next inspection that the queen is in lay is beyond what you'd expect from pure chance.

Also agree that a new queen can often take a little while to settle down into a 'proper' laying pattern and that you'll often find multiple eggs in the cells, and not just at the bottom, when she first comes into a lay.  My understanding is that despite multiple eggs a new queen will still basically lay in a standard pattern but laying workers is far more random, you'll find patches of eggs everywhere.

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## Jambo

Confirmed six 2019 laying queens today - must have been dashing out for quickies between downpours!  Such a relief. 

Lucky to have a very later field of rape still in flower, nectar was being piled in today after a few days of rain.

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## RDMW

Good news. Any wisdom on the longest you would wait before assuming the queen has failed to mate and uniting?? Also if there is a queen present but one who has failed to mate will this prevent the bees making qc if presented with eggs from another hive?
The cold wet weather has abated here in Ullapool so I am still hoping that one or two of my breeding colonies will produce a viable queen. 


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## Jambo

I'm a bit new to this to be sharing anything that could be termed wisdom, but as with Neils and Lindsay these colonies have taken the best part of six weeks from finding well developed cells and taking action to having a new queen laying.  Hopefully there is still just time to build them up for the mental heather flow we're going to get from all this rain....!?

I'm not just sure what the bees would do with a test frame in the presence of a poorly mated queen, but I am glad I gave most of mine test frames last weekend as one of them drew a bunch of cells so something went awry with their previous attempt and the others started laying.

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## Feckless Drone

Geez - been busy few days. This season was purring along, strong colonies, easy splits and got a good crop from bees north of Dundee, then found two of my strongest colonies starving last week, and so been emergency feeding everything in dreary conditions. Ran out of feeders. These two colonies lost alot of bees but seem to have recovered now. They need a careful inspection. Nucs are fine because I left them with frames of stores but I overestimated the ability of colonies with lots of flyers to look after themselves. Old Qs slowed right down and new Qs not laying yet.

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## lindsay s

We are averaging about one good foraging day a week here at the moment. Queens are off the lay and several beekeepers I spoke to are having to feed their colonies. Ive a few hives bursting with bees that need to be split. Their supers are empty and theres a lot of sealed brood to hatch but they arent keen on making Q cells! We dont normally have a June gap here but were still waiting for the fields of white clover. Everything is down to the weather🌧🌧💨💨🌧🌧 and there is no sign of it improving. A local shop asked me today if I could supply them with honey this year, I said ask again in September.☹️

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## Bridget

Ive been feeding mine for about 10 days now.  So emergency I didnt dare delay 24 hrs and take the supers off.  Not that it matters as there will be no blossom honey here and I can have a sort out before the heather starts.  Its a little weird cos you are always told no eggs, no queen and then you suddenly realise no eggs cos there are no stores and the Q is on strike.  Some of the colonies were moving around like they were drugged but Im happier now they seem to have perked up a bit and two colonies stopped taking down feed. 


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## RDMW

> Ive been feeding mine for about 10 days now.  So emergency I didnt dare delay 24 hrs and take the supers off.  Not that it matters as there will be no blossom honey here and I can have a sort out before the heather starts.  Its a little weird cos you are always told no eggs, no queen and then you suddenly realise no eggs cos there are no stores and the Q is on strike.  Some of the colonies were moving around like they were drugged but Im happier now they seem to have perked up a bit and two colonies stopped taking down feed. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Same here in Ullapool. I gave one strong but storeless hive a gallon of syrup yesterday having found it empty of food. Hoping for a lime flow fingers crossed 


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## alancooper

Hi all,
Posts from 16th and 17th mirror the story in my west Fermanagh apiary - great start to the season, now empty brood frames, feeding, cross bees (usually pussycats), Qs off lay and Apidea virgins not mated. Cold comfort that I am not the only one trying to cope with difficult conditions.
Alan.

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## fatshark

But here in balmy Fife it's ... exactly the same  :Frown: 

Some colonies are managing to bring in a bit of nectar but it's very patchy. It also doesn't seem to be related to the size of the colony (or maybe the strong ones are just scoffing it down as soon as it arrives). I'm extracting at the moment and there are a few frames I've left with the hives as they didn't pass the shake test. 

I stockpile frames of sealed stores and am busily using them now rather than feed syrup.

Spring honey yield is probably 30% what it was last year ... but last year was pretty exceptional.

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## fatshark

I underestimated ... just finished extracting ... a bit under 50% of last season. It might have helped if I'd taken the supers off 7-10 days ago  :Frown: 
Colonies I went through this evening still have unmated queens ... or no sign whatsoever of her  :Frown: 
On a more positive note, I fitted casters to the extractor and it's been a revelation  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

> ...
> On a more positive note, I fitted casters to the extractor and it's been a revelation


Three or four castors, Fatshark?

Somebody told me some years ago an extractor needs three castors (or ballbearings) - like washing machines. 

I fixed mine to an old dolly I had with two swivel castors and two fixed ones.  I thought that probably works a bit like having only three castors (?).  Its now working a lot better than when I had it fixed to the pallet on which it arrived.  Then I could hardly set it higher than 7 or it would hop around frighteningly.  Now a 10 is easy.

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## fatshark

Casters? Castors? 

Three ... because my extractor has three legs  :Wink:  I simply bolted them to the end of the legs using an M10 bolt and one of those plastic threaded locking nuts. Seems pretty secure and makes it easier to move it around the building as well.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Castors.  And Supersedure.  I'm a zealot when it comes to spelling - but I only see other people's mistakes, not my own of which there are many.

I think I'll follow your example, and free my dolly for other uses.

Kitta

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## fatshark

Hi Kitta
Casters and castors are probably both acceptable ... the etymology in OED shows that both have been used historically, including in (British) English publications.
Screenshot 2019-06-20 12.18.39.jpg
I've always liked etymology (my school Latin has to be useful for something) which is perhaps surprising as my spelling is so poor.
I've got a dolly I could use for stacking supers on and wheeling them about. 'Could' because my house is on about 3 different levels with 2-3 steps to negotiate  :Frown: 

PS Weird behaviour with attachments ... smaller screenshot was uploaded first and then I realised the larger one would be better. ...

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## wee willy

> Castors.  And Supersedure.  I'm a zealot when it comes to spelling - but I only see other people's mistakes, not my own of which there are many.
> 
> I think I'll follow your example, and free my dolly for other uses.
> 
> Kitta


Where I live a castor is a small articulated wheel.
A caster is a small maggot bred on fish for the use of anglers .
Correction a caster is an advanced chrysalis that readily floats on water ! 



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## Neils

Well the brambles are coming. Already out in the lowlands but still thinking about here in the Mendips.

Ive stopped feeding and added supers to the two bigger colonies, more in hope than expectation at the moment and resisting the urge to combine them into one big double brood hive.

This year is about getting going again. Ive not been through the 14x12 Nucs yet but hope the first should be nearly ready to transfer to a full size hive in the next week or two but will decide what to do with them once Ive had a chance to go through them properly.

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## wee willy

> Well the brambles are coming. Already out in the lowlands but still thinking about here in the Mendips.
> 
> Ive stopped feeding and added supers to the two bigger colonies, more in hope than expectation at the moment and resisting the urge to combine them into one big double brood hive.
> 
> This year is about getting going again. Ive not been through the 14x12 Nucs yet but hope the first should be nearly ready to transfer to a full size hive in the next week or two but will decide what to do with them once Ive had a chance to go through them properly.


Out here in the northwest 
Dog roses being hammered ! 


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## Mellifera Crofter

> Hi Kitta
> Casters and castors are probably both acceptable ... the etymology in OED shows that both have been used historically, including in (British) English publications. ...





> Where I live a castor is a small articulated wheel.
> A caster is a small maggot bred on fish for the use of anglers .
> Correction a caster is an advanced chrysalis that readily floats on water !


I see, Fatshark - it can be either (but I prefer 'castor').  I've even found a new definition: the pelt of a beaver, or medicine made from a beaver's perineal sacs; and a hat made from beaver fur.

As for 'caster' also being a small maggot ...  I shouldn't want to literally translate my own surname with that: a pot maggot (a foundryman, I think - somebody who casts pots).
Kitta

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## RDMW

Im having real trouble with queen rearing this year. 
None of my spilts has produced a mated queen after two months and even a swarm I collected three weeks ago has no eggs.  Im down to three queens and no queen cells in any of my queen right colonies. That will larn me for selling a nuc last autumn and a colony this spring!  Im blaming the weather but maybe it is the beekeeper!


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## fatshark

I'm in good company then ... my notes are full of comments like _Polished cells but no eggs. Give them another week then unite_. However, I'm hopeful we're just turning the corner. Colonies are starting to fill supers again, starting to draw comb and the temperature nearly reached 19C this afternoon.

I was also called to collect a swarm from round the corner. They're definitely not my bees ... are the yours Gavin? Very pale, beautiful temper  :Wink:

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## RDMW

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## madasafish

> Three or four castors, Fatshark?
> 
> Somebody told me some years ago an extractor needs three castors (or ballbearings) - like washing machines. 
> 
> I fixed mine to an old dolly I had with two swivel castors and two fixed ones.  I thought that probably works a bit like having only three castors (?).  Its now working a lot better than when I had it fixed to the pallet on which it arrived.  Then I could hardly set it higher than 7 or it would hop around frighteningly.  Now a 10 is easy.


I have three legged extractor with castors... it does hardly vibrate...(I ignore the spelling politzei :-)

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## greengumbo

> I see, Fatshark - it can be either (but I prefer 'castor').  I've even found a new definition: the pelt of a beaver, or medicine made from a beaver's perineal sacs; and a hat made from beaver fur.
> 
> As for 'caster' also being a small maggot ...  I shouldn't want to literally translate my own surname with that: a pot maggot (a foundryman, I think - somebody who casts pots).
> Kitta


Being associated with the drinks industry we get booze related notices sometimes.....your reply reminded me of this !

http://tamworthdistilling.com/spirit...h-eau-de-musc/

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## fatshark

Charming!

I'm "associated with the drinks industry" .... but only on Friday and Saturday nights ... hic!

What a filthy afternoon. Raining hard in St Andrews and a few peals of thunder. I have 14 wet supers to return to colonies and I've forgotten my welly boots. D'oh!

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## Feckless Drone

An article in the American Bee Journal is quoting colony losses in the USA at around 40% in the last year. 

https://mailchi.mp/dadant.com/abj-ex...-the-last-year

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## Jambo

Lovely day here yesterday, some nectar finally visible in hives and the queen I've got in an Apidea had the mating sign visible - a first for me!

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## Adam

> Im having real trouble with queen rearing this year. 
> None of my spilts has produced a mated queen after two months and even a swarm I collected three weeks ago has no eggs.  Im down to three queens and no queen cells in any of my queen right colonies. That will larn me for selling a nuc last autumn and a colony this spring!  Im blaming the weather but maybe it is the beekeeper!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hopefully your queens will all come good in a rush and your nerves will be calmed!

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## RDMW

Hurrah. All three of my hives I had  given up on have laying queens!! One was from a split I did in that last week of April. 


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## lindsay s

Hi RDMW
Did the queen in the nuc that you thought had laying workers come good in the end or did the bees replace her. I’ve only managed two splits so far due to the weather and colony strengths. It could be August before the queens are mated and laying. I’m off to try a few more splits today in our cool windy weather.

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## RDMW

Hello Lindsay
I ended up shaking out the laying worker nuc and most of the workers found homes in other hives. I was not sure what else to do. It was definitely a laying worker. Lots of drone brood in random pattern.  And several eggs per cell on the walls.  


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## Neils

Looking good at the moment.

Of the Four Nucs bought in, the first of the combined brood Nationals (came in on nationals, want half on 14x12 so split half the nucs by transferring the brood into the other)  is drawing comb in supers and packing in the nectar. the later Colony is thinking about it but is three weeks behind brood wise. Might be getting ahead of myself, but I like to start them out on Standard spacing and move to wide spacing as the comb gets drawn and the super filled, so contemplating getting another super + frames out of storage to start moving things around.

The 14x12 Nucs where I used one frame of brood + queen are now coming along nicely. Don't think they'll get into full sized hives this year, but they're strong enough, drawing comb nicely, building up and also packing in the stores.

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## Jambo

> Lovely day here yesterday, some nectar finally visible in hives and the queen I've got in an Apidea had the mating sign visible - a first for me!


So that was seen on 26th June, when I checked 7 days later on 3 July, was surprised to find no eggs. Queen still looking like a scrawny virgin as well.  Is this just how long it takes does anyone know?  Or maybe she fancies another mating flight and there hasn't been suitable weather since.  Could also be related to complete lack of nectar flow?  Saw Murray on Twitter mentioning the impact it was having on his - rather bigger than mine - queen rearing operation.

I'm starting to agree with the view that Apideas and such are a waste of time for the average hobbyist!  Two frames of brood including a queen cell into a Payne's nuc seems every bit as effective, a lot less hassle and makes subsequent introductions an awful lot easier.

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## RDMW

I agree Jambo. I experimented with mating nucs two years ago and struggled to get them to draw comb , bees stick in the fondant and then the faff of transferring them later. 
I use Paynes nucs as well. I put three frames of bees, an undrawn frame and a dummy board. Do you find two frames better (this will use less bees and deplete the parent colony less)



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## Jambo

> Do you find two frames better (this will use less bees and deplete the parent colony less)


Yes in the sense that they use less of everything as you say and still work fine, though I am sure a 3 frame would build up faster.  My understanding is 1 frame of brood = 3 frames of bees, so if you put two frames of sealed brood into a 6 frame nuc, it will be full on emergence of that brood.  One of my nucs started in this way this time last year is now in a double brood national with 18 frames laid up  :Big Grin:

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## Jambo

...can also keep them busy doing something useful for me such as drawing full size frames of foundation with a steady feed while waiting on queen mating etc.

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## RDMW

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## Neils

Didnt think the colonies would need double brood this year but I turned up to one of the hives trying to swarm. 

Naturally I hadnt done a full inspection last week because swarmings done for the year....

Clipped Queen so they came back while I was going through it to confirm that was what was going on,  given them another super of frames to play with in the meantime.

A nice little welcome treat from the bees to welcome me back!

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## Neils

Well swarm aside its all looking rather good. The two nationals have packed 3 supers so far and each have another one to keep them busy as the brambles are really opening up now. Ive added a second brood box to the one thats a few weeks behind the swarmy hive just in case so theyve got plenty of room and space to play with and not averse to extracting a few deep frames if it comes to it.

First of the 14x12 nucs in the other apiary is now in a full size hive and hope the other can stay in the nuc over winter.

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## fatshark

Swarming's not done for the year up here ... one arrived in a bait hive yesterday and there are scouts looking closely at another this morning. With the forecast for the next couple of days set fair I wouldn't be surprised if more turn up.

My first of the season was the 30th of April ... unusually early in my limited experience for Scotland.

I've also got at least one colony giving the impression it's going for a late season supercedure already.

I blame it on the weather  :Wink:

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## fatshark

And a huge one today in a bait hive. There's some sloppy swarm control in Fife  :Wink:

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## Neils

Theyre not making it easy for me!

Hive that swarmed still has the Queen, found her running around in the supers when that capped honey looked a bit broodish.

New queen would only have emerged last week so I was a bit surprised to say the least and wasnt looking forward to going through 3 supers looking for an unmarked Queen. But sure enough once I found some eggs she was close by still clipped and marked and not in the grass as Id assumed.

Checked the brood box and the cell I left is empty so presume she emerged, its still busy enough that I dont think theyve swarmed so Im hoping the incumbent has polished her off.

But lacking in spares right now so didnt have much choice but to put queenie back below the QE and well see what happens.

If I had the spares Id have put the marked Queen in a nuc to see what transpires in the main hive.

So scratching my head a bit to figure out whats happened tell truth. From the quantity of brood shes not been laying long but must have been there last week and I didnt spot as theres sealed brood.

Any chance that when they slimmed her down to swarm that she got into the supers and somehow missed the signal to go?

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## Adam

I recall once that I put a caged queen in a hive without realizing that there was still a queencell in there. One of my many beekeeping mistakes.  The virgin from the queencell left in a swarm - I guess she thought that the caged queen was the remaining 'queencell queen' and so had the all-clear for takeoff. 

In your case, the virgin left knowing there was queen in the hive she couldn't kill.

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## Jambo

Is everyone else having a shocking success rate of queen matings this year?  Very frustrating!  The good news is the bigger colonies are finally putting some honey away, they seem to be all over the willowherb.

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## Feckless Drone

Jambo Jambo - I set up for 17 new Qs and got 14 which mostly seem fine so far. One looks a bit runty, one runs everywhere. They were due to start mating flights when we had some bad weather and I was concerned but they just took their time. The shortest period between estimated emergence and laying has been 3 weeks, most were 4 or 5.

June gap was pronounced here in Tayside, slowed down the old Qs and may have contributed to the slowness of the newer ones so colonies seemed a bit on the weak side for the main flow. I've been uniting to get strength for the heather. Only picked up 3 swarms this year; called out to two that ultimately were Q-less or I missed her and the only good-un was my own when I missed a Q cell after ignoring my carefully made notes. Nothing in my bait hives, which I've now taken down. I'm guessing there will be swarming in tropical Fife deep into Sept!

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## lindsay s

It was all doom and gloom for me here in June.☹️ I was hoping to make up eight nucs but only managed to do four and I also bumped off three old queens. With hungry colonies, high levels of chalk brood and poor weather I was just about ready to write off this years beekeeping.
Four weeks later there has been a big improvement in the weather and in the state of my colonies. Two new queens in full size hives were mated and laying within two weeks of hatching which is pretty good for up here. Two of my poly nucs have laying queens and Im hoping the others will start shortly. Queens that went off the lay in June are making up for lost time at the moment and a few hives are wall to wall with brood but its too late for anymore splits. The downside is that lll have hives bursting with bees when the forage is coming to an end and they might require extra space when I should be feeding.
Plenty of queen cells are also being made because nobody has told the bees its getting too late in the season for swarming. With the weather being so mild Ive been managing to keep on top of things and havent lost any yet! Other beekeepers here have had swarms in the last few weeks. (E Mcarthur  in Julys Scottish Beekeeper hit the nail on head when he wrote about late swarming due to unfavourable weather earlier in the summer).
On the plus side there has been a flow on and the bees are bringing in plenty of pollen. If I time things right I might even get some surplus honey this season.🙂 Ive never known a beekeeping year like this and its not over yet!

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## Jambo

Maybe I have had an unusually good success rate in previous years with queen matings, and it is only my third season... But have had a couple of cases now this year of colonies failing to produce a mated queen evidenced when giving them a test frame.  I have enough nucs to cover myself though which is nice.  Nucs are awesome.

It's all good though - a proper summer flow on here and without wanting to jinx things completely I think it could be year of the lime here.  Checked a colony last night which has packed a super in 9 days with lovely minty tasting honey - first time I've tried it, deliciously bizarre!

Now if I could just get them cleared in time to put them on the ling!?

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## fatshark

> Nothing in my bait hives, which I've now taken down. I'm guessing there will be swarming in tropical Fife deep into Sept!


No ... I think it's all over bar the shouting in the balmy South. Queens are still laying OK, but there's not the frenzied activity of earlier in the season. Strong colonies are still bringing something in. The rest are just ticking over. I've still got a queen or two who's not mated (or not laying) and will shortly start uniting colonies so I have fewer mouths to feed for the winter. Delaying taking supers off in the hope that a few more frames will be filled ... will I ever learn?!

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## RDMW

We have had a lovely latter part of July. Hot and sunny but with enough moisture in the ground. Two of my colonies under the lime trees had a bonanza after the cold wet June and early July  when I had to feed. Hoping for some heather in my Ullapool hives but they have eaten all the honey they made in May so I may just leave it on the hives.  However all my queens mated eventually so I am going into the winter with strong colonies with new queens. All set for the best season ever - next year!


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## Jambo

> No ... I think it's all over bar the shouting in the balmy South.
> ...
> Delaying taking supers off in the hope that a few more frames will be filled ... will I ever learn?!


 :Big Grin:   It's definitely over up here now apart from the heather - home bees are taking an interest in buddleia and fuschia which in previous years I've been delighted to see but later learned it to be a sure sign of nothing else going on.  Clover/bramble/RBWH yields have been pretty mediocre but as per RDMW hives with access to lime have done quite nicely indeed.

First time trying the heather this year and hives up there are looking promising!

Clearer boards on the hives which are still at home and soon time to pillage brood boxes, add foundation, treat and feed.  Boo.

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## RDMW

The willow herb is still flowering here. Interesting comment about the buddlia. Ours had lots of bumbles honeybees as well as the painted ladies. 
May I ask what you are treating with?  I would be interested to know. Thank you 


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## Jambo

Yeah the willowherb is still flowering here and the fields are still white with clover but Im fairly convinced neither is producing much.

I find Amitraz strips effective, easy to use and can be applied at the same time as using a top feeder. Never tried anything else though and only my third season so Id treat my opinion with caution...!

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## RDMW

Amitraz is what I planned to use as well. I also sublimate any broodless colonies (swarms, queenless colonies and all colonies in deep midwinter). I find the oxalic acid sublimation very effective at keeping mute numbers low


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## Feckless Drone

The weather really not helping us this past week, plus late in the season. There is nothing coming in and lots of unripe stores and grumpy bees looking to rob. And, disaster - cheapest sugar I can find is 55p per kilo.

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## madasafish

> The weather really not helping us this past week, plus late in the season. There is nothing coming in and lots of unripe stores and grumpy bees looking to rob. And, disaster - cheapest sugar I can find is 55p per kilo.


Farmfoods 50p per Kg and £2 off is you spend £25  - (voucher on internet)
B&M 50p/Kg

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## Calluna4u

> Farmfoods 50p per Kg and £2 off is you spend £25  - (voucher on internet)
> B&M 50p/Kg


Get your sugar/syrup/fondant bought early.
There is a significant price rise coming down the pipe as the new contract rates kick in from autumn.

The price had dropped to a non viable rate leading to sugar plant closures in Europe, now capacity and demand are more in balance and a world price rise on top too means that traded rates are £100 a tonne up on the same time last year (and still rising).

Reliance on retailers and cash and carry warehouses running loss leaders might become a bit more chancy going forward.

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## Adam

Booker allows BBKA members to get sugar from them. Not sure if similar applies in Scotland. Currently they are doing 50 kg for £22.

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## fatshark

Has anyone else noticed that queenless (or queenright but poorly/un-mated and pretty-clearly substandard Q's) colonies don't appear to reject drones in the autumn? I've been through lots of colonies over the last couple of days and the two with iffy queens both had loads of drones. I don't think it's colony strength as I looked at weaker queenright colonies which had very few drones. 

I should add that the queens weren't drone layers!

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## Adam

The short answer is yes. 

Turning it around, I guess it's a way of identifying queens that might be ready to fail that we would not notice until too late - if you want to unite two colonies before winter, then you remove the queen that has lots of drones in her hive as she will be the duff one.

Autumn is fast approaching - comparing where I live and Aberdeen as an example, Aberdeen has longer days than me - just - but is losing a minute a day more in daylight so the nights will be drawing in very noticeably and the bees responding accordingly... It's getting late for a colony to start a sucessful supercedure.

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## lindsay s

I’m about to start extracting this years honey and here’s a photo of my set up for removing excess moisture from unsealed combs. Any combs less than 60% sealed that failed the shake test were placed in my airing cupboard with a dehumidifier. I left it on overnight and there was about 220ml of water in the container this morning. I’ve a refractor so I can check the moisture content. This works well for me and I’ve done it for many years. My other half likes the honey smell that lingers on in the cupboard for the next few days. Be careful and don’t overuse the dehumidifier, one night is usually enough. I once evaporated it down to 16% and the honey became very viscous and difficult to extract.
Sorry I’ve not figured out how to rotate the photo from files!

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## fatshark

I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to tell whether the iffy queens were iffy or not as I did exactly what Adam suggested ... they're now MIA  :Frown:  and the colonies are united with other strong boxes.

Lyndsay ... does your humidifier just dry out the top layer of honey in the cell or the entire cell contents? I've always thought the bees moved the unripe nectar around to expose the bits that remained too 'wet'. Warmed honey (34C) at 16% (not heather mind you) extracts perfectly well ... but I bet you have heather honey.

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## lindsay s

> Lyndsay ... does your humidifier just dry out the top layer of honey in the cell or the entire cell contents? I've always thought the bees moved the unripe nectar around to expose the bits that remained too 'wet'. Warmed honey (34C) at 16% (not heather mind you) extracts perfectly well ... but I bet you have heather honey.


Hi Fatshark Ive no idea. I usually break down a few cells to get a decent sample for the refractor so I assume all of that honey has been reduced to the same percentage. The dehumidifier in a small cupboard is maybe too efficient! Capped honey on the same comb can often give a different reading. I play with my honey refractor far too much. I once sampled sealed honey at 20% and I think it might have come from a large patch of borage that was grown nearby. Wouldnt it be nice if the bees always capped at the magic 18%.
My honey comes from two town and one rural apiary. The main source at the rural apiary is clover which is blended with my town honey. It never tastes the same two years running. I might get a few cells of heather honey but I dont keep my bees near any major source.
Youre right the warmed honey would have extracted perfectly. But my other half reclaimed the airing cupboard and due to my laziness I left it in the kitchen for a few days before I extracted it at about 18c. I have learned my lesson.

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## lindsay s

Ive been waiting for an iffy queen to start laying in one of my poly nucs for the last few weeks. Shes little bit small but I was hoping shed fill out. The bees have got rid of most of their drones and there have been no Q cells made on the bar of open brood they were given. Today was going to be her last chance for eggs or she was for the chop. Shes not laying yet!
On arrival today there was a lot of robbing going on nearby. The owner of the other hives hasnt been feeding his bees yet and they are in robbing mode. Ive been feeding all of my nucs and they have narrowed entrances and should be able to defend themselves. On inspecting the nuc I found the bees were balling the queen. After I had separated the ball the queen took to the air and landed on the front of the nuc and re-entered. I found her on another frame and the bees were starting to ball her again. I shut the nuc and have left them to their own devices. Could the queen not yet be laying because of all the robbing going on or is she just duff anyway and it might have been her own bees balling her. Im going to sort them out once and for all next weekend. I welcome all opinions.
Ps Ive come across queens being balled before and feared the worst, only to find them running about fine on the next inspection.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Lindsay, I've heard that the disruption to the hive sometimes cause the bees to ball the queen.  I've discovered a new queen being balled when inspecting a hive, and despite saving her from the ball, she disappeared.  Perhaps, shutting the nuc and returning it to normal might have been your best move, as it seems you've managed before!

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## Mellifera Crofter

Saturday's news: We (the ADBKA) had a another excellent afternoon on the heather with Murray - and we did not need any umbrellas!

Despite my many attempts to capture the beauty of a comb of heather held against the sun - this was my best effort.

Kitta

IMG_4560-2.jpg

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## fatshark

Held up against the sun all bees look dark  :Smile:

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## Mellifera Crofter

I should remember that, Fatshark, when I bemoan the influx of yellow bees in my colonies!

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## Adam

I've seen balling a few times but not for years. It was always with young queens, so maybe I used to be too keen to go inside and see if the queens were laying or accepted. In those occasions I smoked and pulled the bees off and caged the queens with candy and the queens were OK a week later once released with me out of the way and interfering with the smooth running of the colony.
If it's the only queen they've got, it would be unusual for the bees to do that. But if she's duff anyway..... they might have diffferent ideas.

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## lindsay s

> I’ve been waiting for an iffy queen to start laying in one of my poly nucs for the last few weeks. She’s little bit small but I was hoping she’d fill out. The bees have got rid of most of their drones and there have been no Q cells made on the bar of open brood they were given. Today was going to be her last chance for eggs or she was for the chop. She’s not laying yet!
> On arrival today there was a lot of robbing going on nearby. The owner of the other hives hasn’t been feeding his bees yet and they are in robbing mode. I’ve been feeding all of my nucs and they have narrowed entrances and should be able to defend themselves. On inspecting the nuc I found the bees were balling the queen. After I had separated the ball the queen took to the air and landed on the front of the nuc and re-entered. I found her on another frame and the bees were starting to ball her again. I shut the nuc and have left them to their own devices. Could the queen not yet be laying because of all the robbing going on or is she just duff anyway and it might have been her own bees balling her. I’m going to sort them out once and for all next weekend. I welcome all opinions.
> Ps I’ve come across queens being balled before and feared the worst, only to find them running about fine on the next inspection.


Well I looked at the queen a week later and she was moving about quite happily despite the mauling she got last time I saw her. She was still not laying but because I was waiting for some brood to hatch out on a test frame l delayed in giving her the chop and uniting the nuc. Today I was intending to cull her and unite the bees, but on inspecting the colony I saw her and found a small patch of eggs and larvae on one frame. It was in a nice pattern and I think she started laying about the middle of last week, she’s not duff after all.
I decided to give the poly nuc a frame with some sealed brood for a boost because it had enough bees to keep it warm. It wasn’t that easy and I was on my third hive before I found a half suitable frame. Because of queens cutting back on laying and heavy feeding what little brood there was, was on the bottom third of the frames. It’s unusual for me to see that because I’m not usually in hives at this time of year. The poly nuc has plenty of stores and is warm so I hope the queen keeps laying for a few weeks yet. Although I would like a look in couple of weeks time I’m going to leave it alone because there is nothing more l can do. Here’s hoping they make it through the winter.

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## Mellifera Crofter

That was a lucky queen, Lindsay - having escaped being balled and being squashed.  I hope she she does well.
Kitta

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## lindsay s

Thanks Kitta. 
Excellent weather here today sunny, still and 16-17c. Ive been tidying up a couple of town apiaries and all the hives are busy and pollen is still coming in. The temptation was to much so I ended up checking out the poly nuc. The queen is now laying well and theres eggs and larvae on both sides of the frame. This is the latest Ive ever had a queen come into lay and she should be OK. Apart from topping up feed, I definitely wont be back in the nuc until Spring!!!

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## lindsay s

It’s all over for me this year. Feeding finished a few weeks ago and my hives have extra bricks on their roofs and are now ready for the winter. I’m using ex storage heater bricks, they are heavy and they look much nicer than stones. I got loads of them in exchange for a few jars of honey last year. 
It was a very mixed summer here and if June’s weather had carried on there would have been no honey for me at all. July’s was a massive improvement and the bees made up for some of their lost time. I averaged 30lbs of honey per hive, down a third on last years average. The feedback on my honey is good and it will soon be sold out. To sum this year up l’ve the same amount of hives to over winter as last year but I would have liked to have had more nucs. Although my honey is down a third I’m delighted with what I’ve got because I had written off this year in June! Would anyone else like to say how their year has been?

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## Feckless Drone

Hi - its been a really good year from my perspective (good yields and learning lots) despite the fact that in Tayside we had a horrendous June gap.  Early season weather and hence crop was good, and I worked on getting freshly drawn comb to replace old stuff and help with chalkbrood. That gave me a good start and so also ran with a few colonies on double brood for awhile. Almost lost a couple of strong colonies in June after taking off the OSR honey but emergency feeding saved the day. My swarm control this year was exclusively the nucleus method of removing the old Q. Pretty sure that only 1 swarm emanated from my colonies in May - and I caught it in the apiary. Got 16/20 mated Qs from end May to end June that look OK despite poor weather when Qs were first due to fly. Qs did take along time to get going this year, with most starting laying 4-5 weeks after emergence. Nothing appeared in bait hives, called to two swarms, 1 Q-less and I missed the Q in other. 

I thought the colonies looked a bit on the weak side for the heather but again, they did well in the Angus glens where the bell heather went on for at least 5-6 weeks.  Colonies going into winter look strong so fingers crossed. All but 1 colony seems very well behaved. The one that is a concern is full of runners, did not do much re honey and the Q is unmarked and not clipped cause she out sprinted me every time. The running makes it really difficult to inspect - so that Q will not be bred from next year. A pity because they are the darker bee that I prefer,  

Difficult to be accurate with honey yield because I am not that efficient at extraction, try to get alot of sections and cut comb. Some of the honey this year was too high in water content, and has been fed back to the bees.  Overall I am somewhere close to 40 lbs per hive actually extracted and kept. Sold most of it but still a few buckets tucked away. Forage and conditions seemed to work out pretty well for OSR, sycamore, lime and bramble. Little willowherb as judged by only small amounts of that distinctive pollen.

Big lessons - stick with nucleus method of swarm control, make sure there is lots of fully drawn fresh comb available (no Q-cells tucked into eaten away corners makes life a bit easier), pay more attention to level of stores in large colonies.

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## RDMW

Hello Lindsey
I would agree it has been an unusual year. It started with a very hot dry spring here in Ullapool and the bees got off to a flying start built up very quickly and then started swarm preparation really at the end of April and in early May.  This was followed by a good blossom harvest which was rapidly consumed in the awful June weather when it was cold wet and windy for several weeks. All the spring stores were consumed and I had to resort to feeding some colonies which is something I have never ever done in the middle of the year.
Then late July and August are hot and sunny.I got a good harvest from the lime trees with beautiful clear slightly citrus flavoured honey. Despite keeping these for over 20 years I dont actually like honey all that much, I just love keeping these. However the lime honey is really quite delicious.I then went on to get a modest harvest from the Heather.
I started of the year with three good colonies, Sold a colony, reared enough Queens to supply a local beekeeper with three Queens and have ended up with seven strong colonies headed up by either a 2018 or 2019 Queen. I also bought a queen from Andrew Abrahams in Colonsay both for interest and also to see if I could improve the genetic diversity of my bees.
I live in Ullapool in the Northwest Highlands and when the weather is good the beekeeping is good and when the weather is poor its very challenging.
Richard 


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## lindsay s

> I live in Ullapool in the Northwest Highlands and when the weather is good the beekeeping is good and when the weather is poor its very challenging.
> Richard


Hello Richard, I once spent nearly a week in Ullapool on a school trip over 40 years ago. I think the sun came out for a few hours on one day. The highlight of our trip was      not the weather, it was watching a chip shop or cafe burn down near to where we were staying!
I think beekeeping on the west coast or the Islands of Scotland will always be challenging and up here it is even more so. Our beekeeping calendar is about a month behind in Spring / early Summer and everything comes to an end in early August. Sometimes the window for the bees to produce a surplus can be as little as 3-4 weeks. It is possible to get a decent harvest here if the weathers good but you have to work at it. Ive also put in a lot of time and effort for very little reward. Some beginners find it difficult in their first few years because our bees arent doing what it says in the books. Ive kept bees for nearly 40 years and Im still having to adapt. 
Also carriage charges for equipment can be expensive and even more so for jars and fondant. One glass company wanted to charge me £20 extra per box of jars on top of their normal charges to send them up here. 
At the moment we are still varroa free and are managing to discourage any imports of bees, so we just have to work with what we have got. I think if there was a poll on the most challenging place to keep bees in Scotland we would be pretty near the top. Just about every year my partner hears me threatening to pack in my hobby (with lots of foul language) because things are going wrong. Ive not finished yet because theres nothing better than working with bees on nice warm days when everything is going right (although they are as rare as hens teeth). Liking honey helps too.

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## fatshark

It's not been a great year here south of the Tay (though that's not really anything to do with the bees). Yields overall were a fraction over 50% of last season, though last season was pretty exceptional. I don't have yields per hive as one of my apiaries has very variable colony numbers as they're used for the day job and I tend to move supers around. Overall I ended up with over 130 kg this year (cf. 260 kg last).

One of my apiaries is always in range of OSR for the spring honey. I have four production colonies there and last year got over 50 lb each from them (by early June, with more summer honey later). The big difference this year was that both the main apiaries had OSR in range and both did significantly worse  :Frown: 

Only a couple of things to say about the summer honey. The first is that a few buckets are exceptionally tasty and I definitely got some lime this year. Secondly, my central Fife apiary (with the four production colonies) did very much worse than the apiary on the coast. Partly this was due to the really marked June gap (same as FD) which shut the queens down and probably meant the colonies were understrength for the summer flows.

Of course, the other interpretation of the last statement could be ... poor beekeeping and the failure to provide stimulative feeding during a very obvious June gap meant the colonies were weaker than they should have been and the beekeeper deserves a slap. 

Swarm control was really nailed on. Well, almost. I was feeling rather proud of myself until I found (late in the season):
a large swarm underneath a hive - the clipped Q had crawled back up the leg of the hive standa colony that attempted but failed to swarm because the beekeeper (ahem, me) had split the double brood with a QE in the hope of finding the Q and left her in the upper boxa very obviously swarmed nuc which had outgrown its box
So, only the last one was lost (result!) but I wasn't exactly in total control.

I got three swarms to bait hives, one in late April, then two in successive days in July (moved and replaced with a fresh box). I'd like to thank the donors ... all prime swarms, nice bees, low mite levels, well behaved and in one case a real box full  :Smile:  I think I also collected a swarm or two in April, but it feels like a lifetime ago and could have been last year.

The other notable thing is that _Varroa_ levels are markedly up on last season. Some of my colonies have been very strong and I'm pretty sure got mites from robbing weak colonies nearby. However, we've also seen high mite levels in lots of other colonies I've looked at in other parts of Scotland, so wonder if it's a more general thing. Mite levels are up, but not worryingly high and I think I'm mostly in control.

As always, I've learnt a lot. As always, I've done far less than I'd intended - no active queen rearing (again), still haven't got rid of pesky chalk brood in some of the bees, kept too many colonies etc.

It's been manic at work this year and beekeeping has provided a real and very welcome escape. I've given quite a few talks - including one yesterday to enthusiastic 6-11 year olds which ended with a spectacularly sticky honey tasting session. 

In the next 2-3 years I hope to start with some bees on the west coast in a _Varroa_-free area. I won't be taking any bees from Fife. Not only is the area mite-free but it's also apparently honey bee-free ... I've not seen one all season. However, there are loads of bumbles so I'm ever-hopeful. 

It's an area that lacks the fleshpots and flaming chippies of Ullapool, but has many other things to commend it ... not least of which is the price the local beekeepers sell their honey at  :Smile: 

Finally, I've lost yet more hive tools  :Frown:  and met some very friendly and helpful beekeepers from all sorts of places  :Smile:

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## Bridget

It was a funny old year.  I learnt a massive amount mainly from our association apiary where everything that could go wrong did yet we still have three strong hives but lost two and got some honey.  
I rely 75% I would say on heather and our heather was as poor as last years.  Brown again in no time.  
Only just caught the June starvation in time but some hives did not recover enough in time for our blossom which is mainly early July.  Was optimistic about the heather - all that rain, but they didnt fill the second super put on for the heather and I was left with a mass of half filled and half capped frames.  
So from 8 hives only 80lbs of honey 
I know we are marginal (height) as we don't get any good flows in may and June to help them build up but was hoping for more.  
Swarms - a couple both mine as no other beekeepers near enough. 
Varroa - never had much before but this year, especially in the beehouse, I have a lot and still treating.  
Wasps - bloody hell is all I can say and Thornes fancy wasp defying entrances are not confusing the Wasps. 
So roll on next year! 


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## fatshark

Hi Bridget
We're always hoping for more ... !
Was it the Thorne's Wasp Out that's not been working? We've had a huge number of wasps here this autumn was well but they've not really troubled the bees. The colonies are strong and I reduced the entrances to a 2cm gap. Those in the bee shed only have a 2cm hole to defend anyway. However, keeping the stripey blighters away from cleared supers was a real pain.
My Varroa levels in the bee house were possibly higher than colonies outside ... however, this could be because the Varroa trays on the floors there are particularly well designed (NOT by me - they are from Pete Little) and nothing blows away or is stolen by critters.

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## Adam

AS usual I didn't have enough time to attend the number of colonies I keep (a lesson I have yet to learn) so a couple of swarms that shouldn't have been. A couple of colonies got CBPV which eventually righted itself but only after a lot of dead bees. Honey was 'fair' this year compared to last which was exceptional. Varroa not too much of a problem. Wasps neither. I was expecting a lot of wasps after a very mild winter with only one frost, but they didn't really appear. Mating was quite reasonable too. I have had the odd year where queens would be superceded soon after mating or the weather was too poor and the queens went to waste, this summer things went quite well. No chalk brood to speak of this year. It definitely follows the queens. A colony riddled with it will sort itself out with a new queen. Transfer a chalk-brood queen to another colony and the chalk-brood follows her. And I am going into winter with more colonies than I should have.

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## greengumbo

Its been a decent year up here. Blossom was not as crazy as last years mega haul but at least I managed a good heather harvest. I reduced my hive numbers a bit this year which has helped and got a few nice shiny pieces of equipment that has speeded up extraction and soft setting. Still need to build a bigger warming cabinet but that can wait till winter...although I said that last year...and the year before.

Hives all fed, treated and tucked up now.

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## madasafish

A tale of two halves:
early half loads of honey .. extracted bottled and sold.

Seconds half : LOTS of frequent and heavy rain, colonies inspected too late, loads of swarms as a result..
Yields bottled 25% down on last but as I left  approx 20% of my 2018 harvest over winter to feed, down 45% overall.

Had to feed bees heavily for winter.(125kg so far).
Average yield 55lbs per hive:  all local, no heather. Very good taste - some lime?

Raised 18 queens - used incubator as first batch in nucs failed due to cold June nights (5C or less)..  Found it gave more consistent results.. Incuabtor blew up end Q raising (it was DIY for quail eggs) and being rebuilt with modern electronics control system STC1000.. Vast total outlay £18...

Stopped feeding hives, still feeding nucs..

Sold all honey - Facebook Marketplace .. could have sold double the amount..

SHould do better 2020 if weather OK...!

No expansion, minimise new spend   are main aims.  Sell bees to anyone who wants..

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## Neils

Well I finally got around to getting a nail gun for my Frame making, I love that bit of kit already.

Bees looking good right now, all 4 came through winter including the one blown over for a couple of days in the storms.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Im glad your toppled colony is fine, Neils.

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## Neils

Tale of two apiaries. few hundred feet of elevation and about a mile between them. Lower apiary is going great guns. now on double brood national and a super apiece. Upper apiary flow now started but only on 5 14x12 frames.

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## Adam

A good illustration that local conditions can vary enormously. I had 5 hives knocked over a couple of years ago, I lost one queen as a result and many of the bees from one hive found their way into another as it had been moved so far.

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## Neils

> A good illustration that local conditions can vary enormously. I had 5 hives knocked over a couple of years ago, I lost one queen as a result and many of the bees from one hive found their way into another as it had been moved so far.


It's interesting, the 14x12 site is great, landowner is really interested but they just don't do that well there. I'm thinking it's my queen rearing apiary. Other site can easily support a few more hives and they are packing in the nectar at the moment. In theory their range area overlaps, but I've seen colonies on the 14x12 site starve in sight of OSR.

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## Mellifera Crofter

For the past few days Ive noticed my bees, lots of bumble bees and butterflies foraging on our purpurea willows.   Its the first time Ive seen that.

I used to think theyre great trees for bushy windbreaks, and the deer dont eat them, but just a pity the bees dont like them.  Not any more!  Did I just not look at the right time previously, or do they take a time to mature and become palatable (like ivy)?

The other willows catkins arent out yet. 

Kitta

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## Neils

possibly swarming eve round these parts. lots of interest in a few boxes of spares that I have in the garden. been building up steadily over the past 3 days.

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## Bridget

> For the past few days Ive noticed my bees, lots of bumble bees and butterflies foraging on our purpurea willows.   Its the first time Ive seen that.
> 
> I used to think theyre great trees for bushy windbreaks, and the deer dont eat them, but just a pity the bees dont like them.  Not any more!  Did I just not look at the right time previously, or do they take a time to mature and become palatable (like ivy)?
> 
> The other willows catkins arent out yet. 
> 
> Kitta


Kitta we planted lots of willows a few years back.  The deer ate them and the bees ignored them.  It wasnt until last year they began to have proper pollen catkins so maybe it does take a while.  Too tall for the deer now and the bees are on them but not as much as I had hoped. We have a neighbour with a very mature early willow - about 3 weeks ahead of mine and is more silvery.  They absolutely love that one.  




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## fatshark

My willows are only 2 feet high and not yet interesting enough for either the bees or the deer. Mine are goat willow _Salix caprea_ I think. 

The local bumble bees are hammering the native willows (species unknown) up on the hill behind the house. I've taken some cuttings from these local trees as well ... lots of little 12" sticks which self-root very easily (but need fencing against the deer). 

I've also taken half a dozen 8-10 foot branches, driven them into the ground and staked them for support. The bees have already browsed the low level stuff off them, but they cannot reach the growing tips  :Smile:   They should root reasonably well. If you find a tree that's been pruned it often sends out relatively straight new shoots which can reach 8 feet quickly. Chop these off and you have a ready-made tree, but it will need staking.

In Fife there's some willow near me that flowers really well but is always too early for the bees.

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## RDMW

Great minds thinking alike. We have just planted 500 willow sticks as a hedge round my new apiary. Here is one shooting



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## Mellifera Crofter

Which willow did you choose, RDMW?  And Bridget - does your neighbour know what kind of silvery willow they have?  Did you do all your replanting of willow sticks in Ardnamurchan, Fatshark, or Fife?
Kitta

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## RDMW

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## RDMW

Hi Kitta
This is the willow we used. Richard


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## Mellifera Crofter

Thanks Richard.  I have a few of those - but looking at pictures of them, I think I should coppice or pollard them to become a bit more bushy.

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## prakel

....
If, six weeks ago, anyone had told me that I'd be grateful for more rain after such a wet winter I'd have thought them mad.....but the last two days have come as a real relief. Can't remember the colonies being so far forward as a group in April. Looks like the large stands of wild mustard we have access to will be a bit of a lifesaver this year (if it all comes through) as the colonies are easily two cycles ahead of last year and the stunted, beetle infested osr has already gone over.

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## Adam

My bees were small colonies towards the end of winter but are now on double brood boxes, with OSR flowering - it's got as little way to go before it finishes. There's a field of OSR right opposite my out apiary which was hammered by pigeons and rabbits, and that is now just starting to flower, although rather feebly. Welcome rain in the past few days - before that I was watering 150 metres of native hedging I had put in as it was so dry. Lots of dandelions in the grass too which is nice to see.

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## fatshark

Hi Kitta

I've put about 50 goat willow 'whips' in (purchased @ 30cm or so high) and am in the process of putting in about the same number of sprouted sticks over the next week or so. 

All these are in Ardnamurchan. I've also planted lots of alder and hazel and hawthorn. All but the hawthorn are seemingly doing OK.

Last winter I planted 100 willow whips around my Fife apiary and some of them are 5-6 feet tall now.

Some aren't  :Frown:  ... so I'll have to go back and fill some of the gaps in due course.

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## fatshark

I meant to add ... the weather in Ardnamurchan has been outrageous. 4-5 hours of videoconferencing a day with the sun beaming down outside ... it's killing me  :Wink:

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## Neils

First swarm collection today. Was actually offered money to pick them up, that makes a change!

Almost perfect swarm except they were determined to be on the tree trunk. "so you're just scooping them up in your hands and lobbing them at the skep?" was a pretty good question and description of events.

They're in a Nuc (really? where's my prime swarm?) and we'll see.  If they can do everything else as well as they did being a swarm they might be nice.

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## Adam

I've had a small swarm - from a chimney and a cut-out this year so far. 
The cut-out was very messy and sticky although the bees were thankfully very well-behaved. I taped some of the comb to empty frames with insulation tape which I can remove later when the bees have joined everything together. Note: Masking tape is better as the bees remove that themselves; unfortunately I didn't have any at the time.

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## Neils

Second swarm. To my shame one of mine, going from a 14x12 only half drawn. Clipped queen so small pile of bees on the grass. Tried a skep, put them in a nuc. Came back following day, clearly she was still in the grass. Spotted her! Picked up, in the nuc. Straight back into the grass again. More poking about, found her again, CoT onto a frame of foundation to keep her in place, back into the nuc.  Back in the evening, small number of bees now in place stragglers still outside.

Feed on the nuc, either they last until the weekend or they don’t. If they do will decide if worth trying to boost them back up. I’ve seen at least as ‘hopeless’ hives come on when left to it but never on foundation. Have some scabby comb I might press back into service just to get some food to ‘em and take that pressure off them and I’m prepared to give them a go knowing full well they’ll supersede almost immediately.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Oh, do give them that scabby comb, Neils, and perhaps another little treat from one of your other hives?  Let us know how they progressed (or not).
Kitta

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## Neils

Well, not good news there I’m afraid. I wasn’t too hopeful but queens gone as far as I can see and a sad few bees remain.

But the hive she came from already has a laying queen! I think that’s a record for me, they were sealed cells last week. Superseding hive also has a queen, found her sat on the crow board as I was closing up but not laying yet.

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## Eric McArthur

Hi Mellifera Crofter
Dangerous practice donating 'scabby comb' to colonies . Preferred action sterilise using Glacial Acetic acid or 85% formic acid - kill sl pathogend except AFB!  Beginners beware!

Eric McArthur

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, I know, Eric.  They were combs from Neils own apiary.  I didnt think using them trying to save a colony would be a risk.

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## Eric McArthur

Whatever!!  Default sterilisation of spare brood comb is good practice.

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## Neils

> Whatever!!  Default sterilisation of spare brood comb is good practice.


Eric, do not disagree with you at all.

Was a situation where circumstance ran away a bit, so forward planning ran out the window.  I don't keep brood comb, just had some available. in the end I let them do what they wanted to. That turned out to be not to survive as a colony.

As advice I'd have said let it go, but I had to try.

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## lindsay s

Hi all its make or break time for my bees up here. After one of the best spring build ups in many years I had nine colonies at full strength by early June and was looking forward to a bumper honey crop. I had even managed six splits into poly nucs earlier than expected. But alas we are now enduring our fourth week of poor weather. It has been mostly cool rainy and dull with temperatures in the 11-14c range and with the odd warmer day. The poly nucs are ok because they got two good frames of stores when they were made up but its a different picture with my hives. Their stores are getting used up and they are just ticking over. The worst thing of the lot is watching the fields full of white clover slowly turning brown and thinking what if !!!

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## Bridget

Ive been feeding 4 of mine.  Stopped a couple of days ago as thought weather was improving.  Just hoping I can keep them strong till the heather starts in a couple of weeks or more.  Heather not looking like it will be early but it must be in good nick with all this rain. Do you get heather?  I had some blossom from a hive that built up well but never get much as our start is so late.  I was hoping to get some more blossom before the heather but supers are pretty light. Gosh we must be such optimists to keep bees! 


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## lindsay s

Hello Bridget 
This morning I checked three hives at my clover site and it was only 13c and overcast. If I hadnt been wearing thick gloves and using cover clothes it would have been very difficult. 90% of the bees were home but they didnt want a visitor. The hives were wall to wall with brood but with very little pollen and honey. Everything coming in at the moment is being used to maintain their brood nests . My hives are in the town and an area of mainly pasture so theres no heather nearby. My main crop comes from the clover which should last for another month. Most of the Orkney mainland is actively farmed pasture. The heather honey here is more often a supplement rather than a main crop because it so variable due to our climate. The last person I helped at the heather was my mentor and that was over 20 years ago.

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## lindsay s

I checked a few hives today and and it looks like my honey yield is going to be well down this year. Although theres a flow on at the moment and a good forecast for the next few days its too little too late. I think most of whats coming in will stay in the brood boxes because they are quite light at the moment. 
Im used to seeing drones getting thrown out of the hives but one of my colonies is doing things differently this year. Outside of their hive I noticed a few dozen drone pupa on the grass at the front and on the inside I could see where they were uncapping more. They arent short of stores and there is plenty of worker eggs and larvae in the hive. I know bees will sometimes remove brood if they are starving or under stress but this is not the case. This is the first time that I have come across this!
On the plus side I have six queens mated and laying well in poly nucs but I might need to use a couple of them to replace failing queens. What with a late swarm and quacking queens I have certainly had a very varied beekeeping year and its not over yet!

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## greengumbo

Hi everyone - has been a while since I checked in so hope everyone is well and bees have had a productive season. 

My hives are now mostly all up on the moors since a few weeks ago. Going to the heather early is the new norm for me as otherwise its too late. They are piling in the honey so far given the warm and wet season so it should be a good year for it. A couple of problem hives mind. Came across a hopelessly queenless hive (dont know how they got to that stage tbh). Was planning on adding eggs to get them to raise a new queen but a hive or two later I found a few queen cells on the verge of emerging.....so much so you could here them scrabbling around in the cells. So I used a technique I describe as the "grenade method of introduction" whereby one (carefully) rolls said QC in via the entrance of the queenless hive without having to dismantle ridiculously heavy angry boxes for the third time that day. Anyone else used this method ? I spoke to one other beekeeper who had some experience of it. I will check this week if anything has changed in the hive.

Queen raising was hit and miss as usual, July was a dreadful time for queen mating. Early grafts did better though.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Nice to hear from you with the update about your heather bees, greengumbo.  As I remember, we're near neighbours on the heather.  I also took four colonies early - and then three of them, to my surprise, got swarming fever.  One did swarm (and unfortunately before I've added a bait hive).  I hope I managed to stop the other two from swarming.  Will see.  I hoped I would get some bell heather, but I don't think I did.

Please let us know if the colony accepted the grenade method of giving them a queen cell!
Kitta

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## Adam

I've not tried the 'grenade' method. If I have an introduced queencell that falls off and finishes up on the floor, it usually doesn't survive. However with your queen grenade, if the queen is just ready to emerge, then it could work. let us know if it does!

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## wee willy

> I've not tried the 'grenade' method. If I have an introduced queencell that falls off and finishes up on the floor, it usually doesn't survive. However with your queen grenade, if the queen is just ready to emerge, then it could work. let us know if it does!


Queen cells are surprisingly tough !
I once put some swarm cells in a bucket along with other bits of wax.
In the morning I remembered Id left the bucket in the apiary only to find three had hatched and were chasing each other around the bucket !



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## Jambo

> So I used a technique I describe as the "grenade method of introduction" whereby one (carefully) rolls said QC in via the entrance of the queenless hive without having to dismantle ridiculously heavy angry boxes for the third time that day. Anyone else used this method ? I spoke to one other beekeeper who had some experience of it. I will check this week if anything has changed in the hive.


I'm looking forward to finding out what happened in the hive of mine that we tried the grenade method on - it'll be interesting to know if the smoke for effect and the yelling of 'FIRE IN THE HOLE' before making a hasty retreat made a difference  :Wink: .

Colony in question was horrible so I dispatched the queen and then tried to re-queen by merging in a nuc.  They killed the queen, and then did the same a couple of weeks later with another lovely nuc...!  Two nuc's queens now, throwing up emergency cells afterwards apparently having realised their mistake.  Hopefully they are more receptive to a grenade virgin, and hopefully she can mate on the moor.

Also got that one daft colony which I merged a 2020 queen into and it's been in swarm mode ever since.  Queen clipped, squishing cells and giving space hoping they snap out of it soon...!!

And I've never had such poor success with queen matings, I have shaken out a few nucs and a large colony this season for drone layers  :Frown:

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## Adam

> Also got that one daft colony which I merged a 2020 queen into and it's been in swarm mode ever since.  Queen clipped, squishing cells and giving space hoping they snap out of it soon...!!


It's the right time of the year for supercedure?

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## Jambo

> It's the right time of the year for supercedure?


Indeed - but this colony is producing large numbers of cells often at the bottom of frames, which Ive always understood to be swarm cells?

Perhaps Ill find differently in the spring!

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## Mellifera Crofter

I had a swarm today!  I don't yet know from which colony, but I'm sure it must have come from one of mine.  Fortunately my husband saw the commotion, or I would have lost them.

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## fatshark

:Big Grin: 

Any spare queens to head the swarmed colony or are you hoping for a miracle mid-September queen mating?

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## wee willy

> I had a swarm today!  I don't yet know from which colony, but I'm sure it must have come from one of mine.  Fortunately my husband saw the commotion, or I would have lost them.


Swarm in September!
One to remember!



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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, she might be a virgin!  I hadn't thought of that.  I think I'll leave them for a few weeks and see what happens.  If a problem, I do have a tiny queen I was going to leave in a double-decker Apidea for winter. I might use her.  Or, Jon might still be sending me a couple of queens - depends on the weather.

Thanks, Wee Willy - I'll remember the swam, and the date!

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## Mellifera Crofter

Oh, no!  It's a September swarm that wasn't.  Thinking there might be a virgin queen in there, I turned the excluder from QX to fully open - and now they're gone.  Just a handful of bees on a frame that has some honey in it.  They did behave strangely yesterday - as though they couldn't decide whether to go into the nuc or not - but the branch on which they had gathered were empty of bees - so, the queen wasn't on there anymore.  Eventually they all went into the nuc.  If it was a queen on a mating flight, then I hope she found her way back to the hive from which she came (the swarm wasn't big - but bigger than a handful or two).

In another apiary a bait hive got occupied - but in that case I'm fairly sure it was a virgin queen returning from a mating flight, and missed her hive.  There was none of that frantic comb-building one sees in a swarm, and the hive next to her is now queenless.

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## Bridget

Goodness they are keeping you busy


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## lindsay s

> The heather honey here is more often a supplement rather than a main crop because it so variable due to our climate. The last person I helped at the heather was my mentor and that was over 20 years ago.


 I take it all back for the first time in many years a lot of my hives have some heather honey. Other beekeepers here are reporting the same thing. Unfortunately it is in a lot of my frames that contain clover / wildflower honey. In a normal season my supers fill up with clover / wildflower honey before the heather starts. This year very little honey came in mid summer and the heather flowered early and was the best in years so the bees made the most of it. Personally I dont like the taste of heather honey. Some of the heather honey is getting mixed in with my normal honey while Ive been extracting it. Any left in the frames will go back to the bees to clean up. As this is the first time I have dealt with this I have a few questions.
Is it OK to sell a wildflower heather blend and is there any demand for it.
My normal honey sets slowly in the jars, will the heather affect how it sets and its appearance. 
And lastly should I just give the whole lot away.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yes, Lindsay, you can sell a heather blend.  Thats what I did.  Last Year was my first year on the heather and, to my surprise after extracting it, found it smelled like heather, but did not behave like heather.  I then found out that the bees had also been foraging on Himalayan balsam, as they were near a steam.  The blend tastes delicious!  So, definitely keep your honey.  The clover/heather mix might be similarly delicious.   It tones down the strong heather taste.

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## Adam

> Oh, no!  It's a September swarm that wasn't.  Thinking there might be a virgin queen in there, I turned the excluder from QX to fully open - and now they're gone.  Just a handful of bees on a frame that has some honey in it.  They did behave strangely yesterday - as though they couldn't decide whether to go into the nuc or not - but the branch on which they had gathered were empty of bees - so, the queen wasn't on there anymore.  Eventually they all went into the nuc.  If it was a queen on a mating flight, then I hope she found her way back to the hive from which she came (the swarm wasn't big - but bigger than a handful or two).
> 
> In another apiary a bait hive got occupied - but in that case I'm fairly sure it was a virgin queen returning from a mating flight, and missed her hive.  There was none of that frantic comb-building one sees in a swarm, and the hive next to her is now queenless.


I've lost 3 or 4 small colonies from mini-nucs this year.... They just go on a hot day.

I have not neen many mating swarms but did see one mating swarm this year from a full-sized colony. It returned OK although the queen only laid up one frame of brood before the colony superceded her so it's now rather small as it had been queenless for a long time.

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## fatshark

I watched a mini-nuc abscond a few years ago. It was a diffuse cloud about a metre in diameter. It rose from the bottom of the hedge (where the nuc was) and then just disappeared over the fence at a fast walking pace. All very controlled. It was a hot day. 

I assume these colonies don't know where they're going. I don't think they've scouted out an alternate venue. If anyone knows differently I'd be interested.

My colonies on the west coast are bringing in loads of bright yellow pollen. I presume this is ragwort ... one of the few yellow things still flowering.

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## Mellifera Crofter

Yellow things flowering near my bees: OSR made a come-back next to my apiary by the Deveron - just a thin scattering of flowers all over the fields.  I went there on sunny Thursday - but I think the bees were more interested in the Himalayan balsam growing next to the river than the OSR.  Lots of white bees returning to their hives.

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## lindsay s

I’ve managed to carry out a first quick inspection of all of my hives in the last week. The good news is that they are all queen right and have brood in all stages. But in more detail things aren’t so rosy. At my main apiary which is quite exposed all hives bar one were low on stores, had used up their candy and have very little pollen coming in. I’m now feeding them syrup. At my smaller apiary which is very sheltered and in the middle of town the amount of stores and pollen is much better and they don’t need feeding. Most of my hives have only three to four bars with brood and some were damp with mouldy combs (more about that in a different post). My polly nucs were also short of stores but at least they are warm and dry.
The weather here has been cool for some time and even on a sunny day the bees are only flying between 10:00 and 16:30. We had very strong northerly winds with snow starting about the 5th of April and it lasted for the rest of the week. As a result of that, most of the early flowers and shrubs got battered and frosted. I was speaking to local gardeners about this they said things have been set back by a few weeks. You’ll see  my photo of a flowering currant that was scorched by the wind. It’s a pity because my bees really depend on the early flowers for pollen coming in.

I like using this forum but it is very quiet at the moment. It’s free to use and we aren’t asked for contributions. But with over one thousand members posting nothing how long do you expect the SBA to keep funding it. It’s a case of use it or we might LOSE it.

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## wee willy

> Ive managed to carry out a first quick inspection of all of my hives in the last week. The good news is that they are all queen right and have brood in all stages. But in more detail things arent so rosy. At my main apiary which is quite exposed all hives bar one were low on stores, had used up their candy and have very little pollen coming in. Im now feeding them syrup. At my smaller apiary which is very sheltered and in the middle of town the amount of stores and pollen is much better and they dont need feeding. Most of my hives have only three to four bars with brood and some were damp with mouldy combs (more about that in a different post). My polly nucs were also short of stores but at least they are warm and dry.
> The weather here has been cool for some time and even on a sunny day the bees are only flying between 10:00 and 16:30. We had very strong northerly winds with snow starting about the 5th of April and it lasted for the rest of the week. As a result of that, most of the early flowers and shrubs got battered and frosted. I was speaking to local gardeners about this they said things have been set back by a few weeks. Youll see  my photo of a flowering currant that was scorched by the wind. Its a pity because my bees really depend on the early flowers for pollen coming in.
> 
> I like using this forum but it is very quiet at the moment. Its free to use and we arent asked for contributions. But with over one thousand members posting nothing how long do you expect the SBA to keep funding it. Its a case of use it or we might LOSE it.


Britishbeekeepers.co.uk have stopped using Tapatalk quoting security issues.


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## fatshark

> Britishbeekeepers.co.uk have stopped using Tapatalk quoting security issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The forum runs on software called vBulletin ... tapatalk is something separate as far as I understand. It's a 'front end' that runs on the web, phones and tablets that provides a common (and relatively easy to use) interface to a variety of different forum types. There may be security issues with it (I don't know) as you have to provide it with your login details to the various forums.

With the web shifting to more secure https connections (rather than http) this forum will need an SSL certificate in due course to avoid the 'Not secure' warning in the browser. 

I'll write separately about beekeeping in response to Lindsay ... as that's much more interesting  :Wink:

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## wee willy

> The forum runs on software called vBulletin ... tapatalk is something separate as far as I understand. It's a 'front end' that runs on the web, phones and tablets that provides a common (and relatively easy to use) interface to a variety of different forum types. There may be security issues with it (I don't know) as you have to provide it with your login details to the various forums.
> 
> With the web shifting to more secure https connections (rather than http) this forum will need an SSL certificate in due course to avoid the 'Not secure' warning in the browser. 
> 
> I'll write separately about beekeeping in response to Lindsay ... as that's much more interesting


British Beekeeping forum having changed its software from V bulletin is no long available via Tapatalk!


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## Adam

Some browsers don't allow access to non-secure websites, http as so last season!  :Smile: 
(Is this why people are reluctant to get on this forum?)

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## Adam

> Britishbeekeepers.co.uk have stopped using Tapatalk quoting security issues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


it's bbkaforum.co.uk now - with the https bit in front.

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## wee willy

> it's bbkaforum.co.uk now - with the https bit in front.


Thank you Adam ! Britishbeekeeping forum has no connection with the bbka ! 


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## greengumbo

Not posted on here for ages - hope you are all doing well ?

How has the season been going ? Slow start with the cold spring but its been non-stop since. About to move the bees to heather in the next few days so will get some respite from weekly checks  :Smile:

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## lindsay s

Ive had contact with quite a few beekeepers here this year so heres a general picture of what it has been like so far.
Everything has been running late this year. It started with a much cooler than average April and May which set back the forage available and subsequently the colonies building up. Extra and later Spring feeding was required to keep a lot of hives going. I only added my first supers at the end of May and a few other beekeepers were the same. Just when the white clover started to flower in early June we had a couple of weeks of low cloud and haar which kept most of the bees in and I thought we were going to have a very poor season. Since then weve had one of the best flowering periods of clover here for many years and it has coincided with a nice spell of weather so a lot of us are getting a bumper crop at the moment. Weve had no heat waves and it has been much dryer than average but it suited the bees so I was wrong with my doom and gloom. Most of our swarming only started at the beginning of this month and there has been a lot more than usual. Finally a lot of us are still waiting for our queens to be mated. As I said at the start everything is LATE this year!!!

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